The Big Picture - 'Past Lives,' the Start of Oscar Season, and the Top Five Most Romantic Movies of All Time

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

Sean and Amanda dive deep into 'Past Lives,' one of the year's finest films and an extraordinary example of writing, directing, and acting in romantic storytelling (1:00). Then, they share their five favorite romantic films (58:00). Finally, Sean is joined by writer-director Celine Song to talk about her debut feature (1:18:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Celine Song Producers: Bobby Wagner and Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may find this hard to believe, but 60 songs that explain the 90s. America's favorite poorly named music podcast is back with 30 more songs than 120 songs total. I'm your host Rob Harvilla, here to bring you more shrewd musical analysis, poignant nostalgic reveries, crude personal anecdotes, and rad special guests, all with even less restraint than usual. Join us once more on 60 Saws that Explain the 90s every Wednesday on Spotify. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about a pretty special movie.

Later in this show, I'll be speaking with Celine Song, the playwright turned filmmaker behind one of the year's most moving films. It's called Past Lives. I hope you will stick around for my chat with Celine. But first, let's talk about Past Lives and romance at the movies. Now, Amanda, this is a film that has been lingering in the culture for the last six months because it premiered at Sundance. You and I, of course, did not attend Sundance, and so we did not get a chance to see this movie. We only

attended virtually. But it was pretty clear after it debuted that it would be at least one of the most lauded movies of the year. It's been a few months since you've been hearing about it, and then you heard a little bit about it from me. I'm going to tell the audience what this movie is about, but before I do, What do you think of Past Lives? Have you seen that? I think it's an America's Got Talent clip, but it's Sofia Vergara at the judge's table

and she's giving her verdict and she's like, I have to be honest, I didn't like it. I loved it! And then like hits the buzzer. That's me. I fucking loved it!

What a movie! And like, I do feel like so much of this writing and maybe even our conversation about the film has been about, you know, it's like a quiet, a moving, like emotional, astonishing film. And it is all of those things. But like, I left the movie theater jazzed. I was like, this is, I'm like excited that I saw this.

And I was excited that this was really good and did move me. So I'm, I'm bringing my enthusiasm to it. I am very, very enthusiastic about this movie as well. It's exciting to talk about it today. You know, I think we'll talk about it in broad strokes and then we will have to kind of spoil certain aspects of it because there are some creative decisions that were made that are quite fascinating that I think are worthy of unpacking. The film does not go wide for a couple of weeks. When it goes wide, I deeply encourage people to check it out. But in the meantime, we can kind of talk about the rough sketch of the film.

So loosely, this is Selene Song's first movie. And the story is, it picks up with two 12-year-olds, Nora and Haesung. And Nora is about to move with her family from South Korea to Toronto. And she's going to leave Haesung behind. They've formed this kind of like, it's not quite a romance. It's that kind of friendship that's very special between sometimes a boy and a girl where they're bonding and you can see perhaps romance in the future, but there's something platonic at the time. The film then cuts pretty quickly 12 years later, and we see that these characters are reconnecting by the power of the internet and that Facebook and Skype and email has created an opportunity for them after all this time to reconnect.

And, you know, Nora has settled into a North American lifestyle and that she speaks English and that she's kind of losing some of her South Korean identity as she's made this transition. Nora is, in fact, her chosen English name. Exactly. And that Haesung is a reminder of kind of what she left behind of the person that she was and you know of really this relationship that has imprinted upon her and clearly imprinted upon him as well. And we see Haesung in Seoul and him kind of thinking back on this friendship that was burgeoning into something different. And then ultimately Nora makes a decision to cut off Haesung at this time and move forward with her life and not have this kind of long distance relationship.

And she meets someone, she develops a relationship in New York City, and she gets married, and she goes on to the next phase of her life. Then the film moves forward again in time, ultimately leading to this moment where Haesung, who still is not really over at least the idea of Nora and what Nora represents, decides he needs to see Nora. And she accepts him and he visits her in New York. And then the film kind of unfurls from there into a breathtaking final act. It's a very unusual movie because it's not just because it's that thing that you described where it's sort of quiet and moving at a gentle pace, but it is a very designed film and maybe so designed that I didn't feel its design until I really sat down to think about it. Did you feel like you were being manipulated at all

or that there was a kind of like schematic aspect to the movie or did you feel it overtake you as you were watching? I appreciated the structure and the precision of it. Nora, as you were watching i appreciated the structure and the precision of it nora as you mentioned i think she's a writer she's a playwright and there is something very precise and um and even and thoughtful like almost like a play of the way this unfolds in three acts and with specific callbacks also by the way just just like Nora being the name of the playwright, it's just a callback to it's, it's really good. You know, everything that's, it's a reference to Ibsen's A Doll's House. So everything is intentional and thought through. And that was clear to me, even as I felt like that structure and deliberateness allowed it to,

allowed me to get lost in how the story was going because I knew it had one hand on the wheel the whole time. Right. So, Celine Song is a playwright, but I would not describe her writing as terribly stagey. In fact, I think a lot of the dialogue in this film is naturalistic. The way that the film is shot is very naturalistic. Sort of simple, almost looks like still life photography. There's not a lot of aggressive camera movement. It's not's not athletic as you might say um it is but the thing that really drives the movie is this kind of question of of providence of destiny of what nor's character calls in yun which is this unique concept where if two people are crossing their paths in the street and their clothes touch it indicates that there may be many future meetings and many past meetings.

This kind of like infinite symbol of connectivity between two figures. You know, Greta Lee, who stars as Nora, has described it as just standing behind the right person in line at Starbucks. And you never know what could come between you. Maybe something, maybe nothing, maybe all the future you ever wanted. And so Nora and Haesung represent this possibility, requited or not, of friendship, of love, of connectivity, of better understanding to your past, of better understanding to your future. It's a very deep but simple kind of idea for a movie. And it really does conjure the memory, I think, of a lot of movies that I like a lot. Like I thought a lot of Richard Linklater and Wong Kar-wai

as I was watching this movie. I feel like their legacies really loom over this movie quite a bit. But yet, it's like, it's its own thing, too. It's its own kind of story. It's not burdened by those stories, but it does remind you of those stories, which I think is the best thing you can do. I wanted to ask you if you have, like,

if you think of the world in this way, if you think of what-ifs, if you think of the world in this way, if you think of, of, of what ifs, if you think of experiences that you had that could have shifted meaningfully where you're at in your life, especially at this point in your life where you, you know, you're a parent, you're married, you settled into your career, you know, you're, you're at all. You make it all sound so dull. No, it's a, it's a reflect, it can be a reflective time for some people. Not as much anymore, which I think is a good thing, right? I think that's a reflection of I'm at a happy point in my life. And, you know, if I do, I think that all the what-ifs led to this nice moment for me. Knock on wood, I'm sure. I just jinxed all of it. I'm sure I did in my 20s you know and a little bit because it's this is a very rich fertile ground for movies and tv and fiction as you pointed out and so I'm sort of

trained in a way to or I was and all of the media I consumed and the movies I love um rest in this ground so I think I was probably more in my 20s like entering every you know interaction being like is this the one is this the thing will this be the moment that you know something changes and for the most part it doesn't um though you know i think in the real world sometimes actual romance only comes when you decide that like this is the moment that i'm gonna we're gonna we're gonna make it like the movies so oh how do you so that, like, this is the moment that I'm going to, we're going to, we're going to make it like the movies. So, so that's nice. Well, I don't know.

Most, most of this stuff is what you put into it, right? And I think that's true of, of, of these like large dramatic moments and these stories and these, and people bringing, you know, what Haesung and Nora have is a memory and their own, how they relate to that memory and what that memory means for them. And for Nora, it is as much about this young person who she was in Korea and like what her life could have been or would have been with Haesung, but what she left behind when she became the person who she very much wants to be.

And they have a very moving conversation about that. But so it's about choices, I guess, and lives left behind and different phases of life and your younger self to an extent as well. But so that's all stuff that that character is putting on it. And for Haesung, as you said, he's not quite fulfilled in his life of drinking a lot of soju with the bros, though it looks like they're having a great time. And he has a relationship that doesn't quite work out. And so the trip is freighted with meaning because they put the meaning on it, right? So that like romance is people,

the yearning comes from somewhere. Yeah. I don't know. The film is very autobiographical. Selene Song has said that, that she had an experience not dissimilar from this. And she is also, you know, married to a man that she met in America.

And the structural aspect of it, She had an experience not dissimilar from this. And she is also, you know, married to a man that she met in America. And the structural aspect of it, each act is a period of 12 years, I find to be really interesting. I don't know that I necessarily had a haesung, but my best friend was a girl. I don't know that I was in love with this girl, but we were very, very close, lived around the corner from each other, spent lots of time with each other. Effectively up until about 12 or 13. And then at 12 or 13, your interests kind of diverge, right? You become more interested in, you know, finding romance or, you know, diving deeper into your friendships or what have you. But like that, obviously that critical maturation stage changes things. And so it's interesting, and I don't know how true this is for Celine, but it's interesting that 12 is like the breaking point for them because there is a kind of magic to that

pre-maturation, that pre-pubescent period where everything seems possible and everything is a kind of like romantic, fond memory, you know, especially among friends. Like it's not complicated. You weren't punching each other in the street when you were 12 years old. And so there's something like really subtle and smart about the timing. And then the same, I think, can be said for 24, which, as you said, is a time when you're kind of questing around and figuring out who you're going to be.

What is my fate? What is meant to? Yeah, just tremendously relatable. And the idea of, you know, I obviously married my high school sweetheart, and so I didn't necessarily have that exact experience. But it's very common for now more than ever for people to be using the internet to try to make connections or yeah I had a long distance thing not a not a childhood thing but around this age

someone like who I you met by chance and who lived elsewhere and again it was and it you know the internet and that distance and the idea of someone rather than the thing itself can facilitate sort of this, you know, dream, imaginary, like romance land. And then it's like, well, now we actually got to like be real people. Right. And then going 12 years into the future from that moment to 36, which is not so far away for us. And I think is a moment where you're like, okay, so these are the final decisions for the second half of my life. And do I want to get married or stay married? Do I want to stay in this city?

Is this the right career for me? Am I ready to lock down the back half of my life? And then when you reach that moment, I mean, when I was around this age, I went for like a basically a spirit walk through the deserts of the Pacific or of the southwest of the United States. I think everybody kind of arrives at these moments. I'm getting nervous that you're about to do another spirit walk. It might be spirit walk time.

We'll see. I don't know. What does the fall of 2023 hold for us? But I think that that's really interesting that that moment, and I don't know how true this was specifically for celine song but that she is confronted at this age by this kind of amazingly tense reunion you know that that she is not kind of amazingly amazing amazingly i mean in the film at least and she has spoken about how it's very autobiographical. I know you're going to speak to her, but I don't know how tense it was in the moment. But on film, you're just like, oh my God.

I mean, I have some notes for all the characters, but that's part of the fun of the movie. Yeah, I mean, let's talk about the performances a little bit. Because, you know, we mentioned Greta Lee, who in my my mind based on the work that i've seen from her has played an archetype that is so different from this character from this norah character the person that i know is the actress who is like kind of an annoying brooklyn millennial woman sweet birthday baby yeah sweet birthday baby like maintenance. Like the times I've seen her, she is, she's very funny. She's a comedic actress for most of what I've seen. I didn't know that she had this kind of dramatic range. And this is a complicated part because it's a real kind of world inside you performance. It's not a super verbal, explicative role, except with some

kind of critical conversations that she has between these two other co-leads. I was like blown away by her. I thought she was magnificent. She's incredible. In addition to often playing like Brooklyn millennial roles, she at one point was sort of like on the Instagram cool person circuit. And she seemed really awesome, but I felt like I knew her a little from Instagram. Is she in like the Taylor Swift circle or like what circle?

I, for a while, she was friends with Alison Roman. And so she was in that whole thing. I don't know. It just looked like she had a great life and seemed like very cool and likable and was in shows I liked. And, but so when I was watching this, I was like, our girl did it. I don't know, Gretta Lee. I've never met her, but I was just like, hey like hey you know it's not too late everyone could um and it was just she's amazing and it's both a restrained performance but also still um you know there are a lot of different levels to it

I think it is very funny there she is like finding the humor in these absurd situations and then is able to pivot on a dime to all of the emotion and confusion and longing in this role. But never doing that really annoying, I'm acting thing she's just the person no desperation yeah whatsoever and that's the thing like longing is a is a complicated word it's a critical word I think for understanding the movie but that longing is not throwing yourself at something no it's like it's trying to figure out well it doesn't have to be uh yeah I guess that's true I guess it when done well in my opinion um it is more internal and it is more it is searching like she is really searching for how she feels and if she needs to come to some sort of conclusive state teo you plays haesung at 24 and 36 an actor i don't think i've seen before who similarly is amazingly um effective at conveying

just the complete sense of simple despair. I'm not happy. I'm not melodramatic about that. But watching him mope around his parents' house, tell them that his relationship isn't working out, be kind of blah about the career that he's chosen for himself, hang dog with his friends. But it does not confer... It's not a Zach Braff movie. blah about the career that he's chosen for himself hang dog with his friends but

it it does not confer it's not a Zach Braff movie you know there's like a character it's not a sad boy situation it's not a sad boy

he's just he's unresolved he's like he has not had the itch scratch that he needs to go forward in his life he needs to figure out whatever this was with Nora

and he is tortured by it but not but he's able to continue to live. You know what I mean? He hasn't stopped everything. It takes him a long time in his life to arrive at the fact that he needs to travel to the United States to determine what this is and who she is now. And he's really, really, really good in this part. And he has this fascinating um job where you know his character speaks very little english and nora effectively acts as his

translator when they encounter arthur which is nora's husband that she meets in a writer's retreat in montauk in her mid-20s which is you know something i'm sure you and i haven't i'm sure we know a lot of people who have met in circumstances like that and gotten married and Arthur's played by John Magaro who's like literally my favorite actor he's wonderful incredible actor I didn't realize when watching showing up

that that was him and showing up and then I was like oh my guy yeah I mean he really you know he's worked in Kelly Riker movies he worked in he was just most recently in the Sopranos the Many Saints of Newark movie but he's worked with David Chase

a couple of times he's someone who's kind of an A24 supporting player you know you'll catch him in a lot of those films but very quiet

simple sort of actor not unlike Tao Yu and Fred Ali in this movie the performance isn't not showy but he is also a writer kind of like

a neurotic novelist and somebody who maybe out kicked his coverage a little bit with Nora and kind of knows it when do we get to give notes on Arthur? no because it has to get in the plot I don't know there's one beautiful scene where

Nora comes home from the first time she's hung out with Haesung in New York and he's just playing PlayStation and just like doesn't fucking put the PlayStation away while talking to his wife who is, you know, has just been out with her childhood sweetheart. I'm just like, my guy, let's think strategically, you know? Gotta have flowers, gotta have a snack on the table. Also perfect detail and just like

the ease with which he is just sitting there hitting the playstation it's you know it's just like a part of their life well I like that

he's a fully a fully realized person too and the fact that he also like Nora but not like Haesung has kind of like accepted that this is their life

that this is what you know and he's like you know what it's thursday my wife's out i'm playing playstation yeah he sort of has but he also there's one pretty phenomenal scene between him and nora um in bed in bed when he's talking about all of his anxiety about the, you know, marriage and not trying to understand more of her and connect to her and her family and her history and in ways that he can't because he's not Korean. And that isn't like an amazing, very honest scene where I was also like, again,

Arthur, just like have a little self-confidence, you know, like I, I think this is an amazing, honest movie. But like Arthur does not play it right, you know? And that's like part of the beauty of the movie. But like Arthur's struggling. That's part.

Yeah, I think that's part of what makes this kind of will they or won't they, for lack of a better word. So tantalizing is that you see Arthur increasingly powerless against the forces that are working against him the other thing too is that this is an autobiographical story but having two characters who are married as writers allows you to write characters who are perhaps more elegant in the way they might discuss something or even more profound in the way they're able to locate a feeling and verbalize it than someone who, you know, is an accountant or is a construction worker or, you know, works at the Gap. You know what I mean? Like these are people who spend all their time thinking about how to put words to feeling.

And so it's more believable when you have a scene like the one you're describing when they're in bed where they're really searching through. It's almost like a dreamlike scene, you know, because they're in bed and because it's very dark and very darkly lit. And they're talking about her dreams. Right. And there's something like, and God, on paper, that sounds awful, doesn't it? It does. Like two writers in bed talking about one of their dreams.

It's like, it sounds like parody of hokey indie cinema. But in these capable hands, it works very, very well. Yeah. And it's the type of conversation that you maybe don't actually have in a relationship because as you said, and I don't even know that it has anything to do with profession, but just that people usually aren't this good

at tidily locating their feelings in words and communicating them to each other. It's sort of the problem of most relationships. But it still doesn't feel overwritten or super, you know, copy and paste for my therapy session. Like it is just people like having that moment of like honest conversation that I guess a lot of people, relationships wish they could have. Maybe they don't wish they could have, but it might be good for them. Or maybe not. I don't know. No, I want to reflect on that. I think, uh, I think that in my life, I imagine myself as an open book. I'm like, I am the easiest person to read and I put it all, I wear my heart on my sleeve. But many people whom I'm close to think that that is not the case. And my wife, you know, her skill at drawing me out is she just asks a lot of questions she just

says why did that happen what are you gonna do about it what comes next okay and that has taught me to do the same for her and that if you don't do that and like life settles right especially if you're even with someone for a very long time and you're just trying to get through the day and then increasingly in parenthood i'm just like just like, we're trying to survive for the next morning here. You forget to do those things or you have to remind yourself to do those things. And I think, I'm sure that Eileen and I

don't speak with the eloquence of some of the characters in this film or even with some of the like searching curiosity about fate because I'm not sure what good that would do if you already feel like you're happy. But whether or not you need to be unhappy to have those conversations is an interesting aspect of this movie. Because Arthur and Nora are not living in a perfect dream. But they're not living an unhappy life. There's a disruption.

There's an interruption of their generally happy life that can happen, that is like very plausible. And that's something that you identified here. And maybe we should use this to kind of transition into talking about the third act of the film. Yeah. Well, the other interesting thing about their situation and these characters is that they,

I think they are, they're living a happy life, but but for Nora at least, she begins to wonder how much of it is a chosen life and how much of it is an accident versus, you know, they fell into each other's, you know, at a writer's retreat and then moved in with each other in New York because, you know, it's cheaper. And then she, the marriage as like the one person or the destiny or this, you know, idea of fate? Now's the chance. Is there? Go ahead. Answer it once and for all. I don't know. I was thinking about it last night as I was falling asleep. I don't know.

I mean, you're a better person to answer it. You've been with the same person for 20 years. More than. I mean you're a better person to answer it you've been with the same person for 20 years I don't believe in that concept but I do believe in knowing when someone is right for you acting upon it and that's not quite as cosmic or kismet

bound conceptually but like I do I think that there is actually a part of that in Nora and Arthur where Nora even if it's not perfect she feels like there is something right for her in this and some of that is timing if it's not perfect, she feels like there is something right for her in this. And some of that is timing. Some of that is,

you know, what she wants her future to be. Some of that is like how she feels like she can thrive as a person. And it's that like elusive idea of what is happiness.

Like, you know, I have like the best life of all time and I constantly find ways to be unhappy because that's just what, there's a human nature to that. So, I think that the movie is very subtly exploring

like these shades of feeling and not definitive declarations of, I am happy, I am not happy. Even Haesung is not, he's clearly unhappy with his circumstance, but he doesn't have a bad life. He's not, and when we meet him, we don't meet a bad life. He's not, and when we meet him,

we don't meet a chaotic person. We meet someone who is like, who's very curious about how to get a little closer to the truth about where he should be going.

And he does get there. That does actually happen in the movie, which is one of, I think, the great achievements of this movie is it actually doesn't

shortchange him, even though this is ultimately Nora's movie. I would like to talk about the final act. If you haven't seen this movie, it actually doesn't shortchange him even though this is ultimately nor his movie um i would i would like to talk about the the final act if you haven't seen this movie please i would say skip ahead 15 minutes because yeah we're gonna or or yeah skip ahead 15 minutes but please don't spoil it for yourselves please don't think like oh i'll just listen and then i'll find out like really really don't i honestly feel like by saying that there's this amazing ending, we've like

spoiled the ending a little bit because that was part of it. I gasp. I, you know, it's really hard to land a plane. And I expected, I didn't think they weren't going to land the plane, but I didn't know that they were going to do it with such precision and what I like gusto I I genuinely gasped so in in in maybe not delight because it's moving but like I I was moved by it so you know when Haesung eventually comes and I'm very sorry Bobby Wagner for doing this to you but I assume you have not yet seen this this feature film at this point I'm like so numb to the idea of knowing how a movie is going to end that it's just, it's part of the process, you know? Thank you for your open-mindedness.

You should still see the film despite the fact that we're going to ruin it right here. In the third act, Haesung does actually come to the United States. He makes contact with Nora. He comes to visit her in New York. Nora explains this to Arthur. Arthur is internally very afraid, it seems, but externally wants to be the thoughtful, open-minded husband

and actually like communicates that, that he's like, how can I stand in the way of this opportunity for you to reconnect with someone you haven't seen in a quarter of a century who meant so much to you and who represents something about your past? I won't stand in the way of that. Yeah, but the way he communicates it is also, but I'm dying inside.

Yes, so angsty. And frankly, understandable. I mean, if that were me, I would be nervous. You know, my husband saw this movie. We were talking about it last night. And I said to my husband quite unkindly about the Arthur character. I mean, what a cuck.

And my husband was like, yeah, but he like is sort of literally being cocked in front of like, you know, he's like, that is the literal definition of it. In a way, but not exactly. Not literally, I suppose.

And so I don't know if we should probably use the spoiler warning tag here. Let's use the spoiler warning tag here, Bobby, because that's appropriate for a movie like this. If we can use it for Spider-Verse,

we can use it for past lives. Spoiler warning. So Haesung comes to visit. And in fact, Nora and Haesung spend a lot of time together in New York. They do a lot of sightseeing. They travel around. What pier are they at in Brooklyn? I don't know, but they're on the Circle Line. The Circle Line. And they go past the Statue of Liberty, which, you know, we get it. But it's well used. Well, there's a notable moment in that visit to the Statue of Liberty where Nora reflects on the fact that she's never been. Yeah. And that she doesn't have a relationship to it despite the fact that she is an immigrant.

And her family has come over, I guess, originally to Canada. And then eventually she comes down to the United States to be with Arthur. And, you know, Haesung regards it with some wonderment, and she has a moment of sort of, who am I in relation to this person and this idea of the person that I left behind that I think is, you know, like you said, maybe not subtle, but effective in communicating what it means to her. And that gets her reflecting. At first, when she first first sees haesung she's kind of blown away by his kind of adulthood the person that he has become but maybe not totally what he means to her and then this these journeys that they take together are really critical eventually you know she brings haesung back to her home and he meets arthur and the standoff between them which is

very polite but made me want to tear my skin. I don't know if I've ever felt more deeply for all three characters in a movie in my life. It's a very, very tense moment where you don't know if someone's going to, you know, turn on the other or reject the other or someone's going to flee out of discomfort. But no one does that. Everyone acts very maturely. And then they all decide to go for a drink yeah so it seems like so it's haesung's last night in new york but i guess he's checked out of his hotel early early morning he has an early morning flight so he's checked out of his hotel early so he's basically just killing time which you can do in new york

albeit if you're you know if you have the stamina. So they're out. It's a distant memory, staying out till 4 a.m. I know. So they're out till 4 a.m. with him, like killing the time. And then that leads to this complicated three-way conversation where at times Nora and Haesung are speaking to each other directly. For the most part, Arthur is observing. Occasionally, he is brought into the conversation and something is being translated.

And in a way, he's a chaperone. In a way, he's there to make sure that nothing happens that would make him uncomfortable. In a way, he's trying to better understand this complex connection that these two people have. And of course, Nora and Haesung are like getting to the edge of who are we together in real life after this handful of days together. And I was on the edge of my seat. I haven't been as engaged in a thriller like this in a long time. There's no fireworks. There's no gunfire.

There's no action set pieces but this very gentle subtle lingering what's going to happen feeling i found to be very powerful yeah um maybe that's just the testimony to being in a committed relationship for a long long time yeah but i thought it was so almost perverse at making arthur watch watch them discover their connectivity. Yeah. I mean, I too was on the edge of my seat, completely wrapped. Speaking again of the film structure, it does something I thought was very smart, which it actually does open with a shot from the other side of this bar of the three together.

And there's voiceover of a game that I've played 45,000 times, which is like, what do you think these people's relationship is to each other? It's still the best, best game in the world. And no one can figure it out because as we learn, it is quite fraught. And so when you get back to this moment at the end of the film, you're like,

okay, like here we are. And like, it's something is going to go off or maybe it's not, but like that foregrounding makes, you know, like this is, or so we think, the climactic scene of the film. I'm glad you reminded me of that, because that is a device that is used quite commonly in a lot of series television, actually, at this point, where we sort of see the moment before the conclusion of the story at the very beginning of the story and then we go back to where everything started it's become very overused at this point in this case but most of the time when it does the thing that's about to happen next

is the most explosive moment of the whole show or the whole film or whatever's coming next it's not that in this case no it. It's a sincere, open, kind of inconclusive conversation about fate, about destiny, about what people are meant for each other. And in some cases, it's about specific memories. And who people are meant to be. Right. And maybe who they're meant to be with. Yeah. And so this long evening transpires.

Eventually, time comes when Haesung needs to get an Uber and get to the airport. And then there's a six and a half minute tracking shot. Yeah, and Nora says, I'm gonna walk him to his Uber. And so she walks with Haesung from our right

to our left across the screen almost moving backward in time and they walk very subtly down the street and far right to our left across the screen, almost moving backward in time. And they walk very subtly down the street. And if you've walked to New York City streets at four o'clock in the morning, it's a very familiar kind of feeling. There's something kind of like dazed and dreamlike. And then there's also still this kind of thrilling,

what's going to happen next feeling where eventually they arrive at their landing spot where the car is going to come and they continue to talk, but in this kind of slightly aimless way. And their bodies are sort of, they're turning towards each other. And what did you think was going to happen?

I didn't know. I mean, even the way, and the Greta Lee performance is truly amazing. Even the way that she's like turning to him echoes her first kiss with Arthur, which is like a very memorable scene where she explains the concept of In-Yeon at the Montauk writers retreat. It's in the trailer. And, and then she says, but that's just something Korean people say to like seduce each other. Um, and then she kind of turns her head and like,

almost like suddenly winks, but it's like, she's giving the, like, you can kiss me signal. And then she kind of turns her head and like almost like suddenly winks. But it's like she's giving the like you can kiss me signal. And then, you know, it's off to the races. And so she's doing the same thing, but without the wink. But she's like projecting uncertainty, but interest. And I was just like, I didn't know what was going to happen. But I was very locked. You know, I mean, I was just completely invested, almost speechless. And then his Uber arrives and like the moment breaks and he steps away.

And I was like, okay, so it's just going to be one of these like yearning, like, you know, lost in translation-ish like type moments. And then his son turns around and he says, and I don't, do you have the exact quote? I don't. So I don't, this isn't the exact quote, but you guys guys have all seen it really turn it off if you haven't seen it um and he says did it ever occur to you that this is like a past life of our future selves and something to that effect and like brings it all together and for all of like the thematic groundwork that this movie did and I like didn't see that one coming from a mile away and then he just goes and i don't remember what she says but he just says see you then

and gets in the car and i was like oh my god it's like it's just like we did it it's like level good and then still in the same take gretta lee walks back into the future, as you said, towards her future. And the camera is just back, so you see her moving along the street. But she's still kind of trying to collect herself. And she makes it back to her stoop. Arthur's there. He stands up to basically console her. And she starts weeping.

And then they go into the house. And that's the movie. It seems simple. It seems simple. It is simple. Yeah. It's very powerful. You know, obviously, the film is staying true

to something that actually happened to the person that wrote it, but I would not have enjoyed this movie if they just kissed and swept each other up and jumped in an Uber and flew back to Seoul. That would have been terrible.

Well, that informs the next segment of this podcast. And that's what i was going to say is that we have this level of expectation about what is a romantic feeling in a movie what is like a deep powerful notion inside of us that doesn't you don't have to act upon it for it to be understood that there is something crushing that nora is experiencing and also something kind of safe and like a relief in a way too. Yeah. That she's able to go through this life and then think about what the future may hold in another version of another reality. Might you say this is a multiversal tale, Amanda?

Oh my God, get out of here. Get the fuck out. It's a really like a remarkable fusion of writing, performance, and filmmaking. It is a really, really, really well-conceived conclusion to this straight ahead story. Yeah. That you can use the techniques of filmmaking to amplify feeling. Like that is, this is, that's a little, that's a heady way of describing it, but it's so, so effective.

And I don't even, most people that are watching it probably won't even think about it because it's so so effective and i don't even most people that are watching it probably won't even think about it because it's done in a way that is not showy it's done in a way that is not like oh look at me i'm i'm i've got a camera on a dolly it's just yeah uh you are enveloped by the feeling between these two characters and desperate to find out what they're going to do to each other with each other other, alone. And that's a testament to the rest of the film. Like, all the pieces have been laid perfectly in place. The script, the themes, the camera, Greta Lee's performance. You know, everything is speaking to each other.

It's really hard to do. And it's just exhilarating. So you wrote here. Yeah. We listed a number of things that make this a special movie that we've talked about. The performances, the way that it's shot, two characters that are writers,

how it's kind of a funny movie about a sad boy, this incredible bar sequence that we discussed. Jubilant ending. The jubilant ending. It's not jubilant, but like I said,

I don't go to the movies that often. I felt like watching this scene, I think the way that you felt watching some of Spider-Verse, which is like, they did it! They put it on the screen! And there's something so exciting to me about that,

even though it is a moving and sort of heartbreaking ending, because people don't know how to do that. But you wrote here that this is a super specific and personal film that is also a perfect. What would you do in this situation? Well, sure! I mean, it's already a great bar game. You know what I mean? Like, okay, so the childhood sweetheart

or like the ex-boyfriend or whatever shows up. And then, you know, then there's just like a supremely awkward situation ensues. Like, how do all three people handle this? My note for Arthur is don't go to the bar. You got to be the bigger man and just stay home. But if he doesn't go, will something else You got to be the bigger man and just stay home. But if he doesn't go, will something else happen between them?

Probably not. But if... Why do you say that? I'm not sure I believe that. And I don't think that makes anybody a bad person. I don't think that makes anybody a bad person at all. Like we're not... Everyone here is a grown up and, you know... But the chemistry between Nora and Haesung is deep.

But you got to have, first of all, some self-respect to not put yourself in the position of chaperone. But also, it's not like if you're just sitting next to the chemistry, you're making the chemistry more palpable. You know what I'm saying? Oh, interesting. It's like by sitting there, you're just like the person that she has to like turn around to, you know? Like don't serve yourself up as that option, as that backup. Right. And in some cases, romance even needs that.

It needs that. In a science experiment, there is. You need the control? The control. Yeah. Okay. You need the control. Don't.

But my strategy for Arthur is don't be the control you know but what do you think you just go back to his apartment and crank it while watching playstation you know what i'm saying it's what it's what he's doing the rest of the time that sounds really i feel like you either are the control or you're not the control it doesn't really matter if you're there well but that's what i'm saying is even but if you are the control, you're making it worse by being there. True. And also, don't put yourself through that.

You know? I just was agonized. Of course. It's excruciating. They're speaking to each other in Korean, and he is fully alienated from the experience. Yeah. Fully.

And, of course, that's also a wonderful play on the opposite effect. Sure. I think that's also a wonderful play on the opposite effect. Sure. I think that Nora's character is experiencing in the first half of the film, but it's painful to watch. Amazing scene,

amazing writing, just as a person giving notes to another person in the world. I see. I'm like, go home. Well, let's get Arthur in here. Arthur, thanks so much for chatting with us

about your experience. Are you and Nora still together? I would not go to the bar. How about that? I don't think I could allow my wife to go to the bar. Like, that's... Well, I don't know if it's up to you. That's very true.

Yeah. I would probably... Zach would get an earful. It would be tough for Zach. There's no way you would allow this to happen. No way. Are you kidding me? I mean, you're right.

And Bobby's right. That like, if he's going, then it's like SOL, you know? That's what's fascinating about the movie. It's a movie where critical decisions are made by the characters that you think will lead to what could be perceived as a deeply romantic moment or a tragic moment, depending on whose perspective you're seeing it through the eyes of. And kind of none of that is true. You know, the person who probably experiences

the most tragedy is Nora feeling struck by the concept of fate. You know, feeling really actually legitimately affected by Inya, not just explaining it to her future husband as a way to kind of like give him the green light to pursue her, but actually understanding it in a profound way really a great film just really incredibly impressive as a as a directorial debut you know i should say this is um produced by killer films and christine vachon who you know is probably best known for working with todd haynes who has a real knack for finding

writers and filmmakers and putting them in a position to succeed in projects like this. And it's a bit gauche to be like, Oscars, what do you think? But I do think that there is a... This is the first movie that's come out this year where I'm like, okay, there will be a strong campaign for this film and it will probably have a lot of success. Let's start the Greta Lee campaign now. Actually, the New York Times started it this weekend.

She was on the cover of A&L. Looked wonderful. I really want those ballet flats um and she she and celine song have been yeah they were in the los angeles times they were yeah you know in all the trades they're they're they're out and about but let's do it best actress let's go and then i would also just like to start the original screenplay campaign which I think that like this could, we haven't seen anything yet. I know we haven't seen anything yet, but this is a very cool accomplished script

and the kind of movie that they like to reward in that category. Yeah, part of the reason why I think it's appropriate to talk about this is because Everything Everywhere All at Once last year came out in March. And at the time I would have been surprised to learn that that was the best picture front runner for four months but now it makes a lot of sense

a 24th track record is what it is i mean this is the studio that does this that manages to get people to see films like this that gets them to take them seriously and gets them to give them awards um i don't know that the commercial prospects are quite as high for this film as they were for Everything Everywhere. But in its opening weekend in New York and Los Angeles, it did really good business. And the arthouse film stuff is really challenging right now. I'm making what I hope is a sincere effort to spotlight the independent films this year that I really, really dig. But this one is kind of a cut above.

Like even above the stuff that I've liked a lot, like How to Blow Up a Pipeline, Bo is Afraid, Blackberry. There have been really good even above the stuff that I've liked a lot like How to Blow Up a Pipeline, Bo is Afraid, Blackberry. There have been really good indie films this year that I've liked a lot. This is... This is the one. This is above that. And because of that,

it'll be interesting to see how it rolls out over time because we've seen other films do great kind of opening weekend per theater screen average numbers. This is a... It is a quiet drama. drama you know quiet dramas are really challenged and i i would encourage people to not wait to see it and when it opens in your city to check it out not just because it's going to be in the oscar race or whatever but because i think it really plays in the theater you know that that that final 20 minutes that we're talking about. It also has that fun thing. I saw it on a Friday afternoon at a full theater in LA,

and I met a big picture fan there, which was nice. And then I was in the bathroom afterwards, and I heard two women, like, confusedly discussing the plan, being like, so she just settles? Like, really angrily, which is not the message. But I was like, oh, great. We're having, like, the bathroom,, like angry reaction argument phase of this movie. They weren't angry.

They were just working through their feelings. It's an emotionally raw film. Yeah. But that's the thing is. Yeah. And I was like, let's go. Yes, let's go. Go see it in the theater and then do this.

I was going to say, go see it and then go to dinner and talk about it. Exactly. It's that kind of movie. It's you want to explore your feelings related to the story that's Exactly. It's that kind of movie. You want to explore your feelings related to the story that's told. It's just incredibly relatable and universal. And that's, I think, along with good writing, directing, and acting,

that's all we can ask for from movies like this is it inspires deeper thought, deeper questioning, just trying to get a better sense of your own humanity. The power of movies. I love it. It's a wonderful thing. So, you know, as I was thinking about romantic movies,

this movie is a kind of a prime example of the kind of romantic film that I like, which is a film that is not a film that ends with man and woman arm in arm, kissing all the way through the end credits. Yeah. I like romantic movies of unrealization you know sure of like desperate longing but also acceptance yes and i think what do you think is the more celebrated version at

this point because we have both right we have you know pretty typical like and then the guy gets the girl and then we also have a film that's on your list that is considered, like, one of the magnum opuses of romantic drama in historical filmmaking. Yeah.

It doesn't end that way. It ends with a kind of, like, and then they go their separate ways. if you'll look at my list, you'll notice, because I made one change,

not to be too simplistic, but four out of five unhappy endings. And then I left a note for you that says, you will note that I did not choose any romantic comedies. And there's one on my list that is a comedy. I don't consider it to be a romantic comedy. We can discuss that. But to me, they are distinct. And when you say like a romantic movie, my mind goes to something very different than my beloved romantic comedy. I understand romantic is in the name of the genre. But to me, those are one transcendent moment of romance when the person makes a declaration and and i think like in real life that's actually the only way you can well you that's the only way you can get romance and a happy ending is for it to be pretty contained but for the most part a romantic comedy is about

people in opposition about people and people war about people warring, people figuring out their own things. A lot of it is like social observations and commentary, all things that I love. But there's not a huge amount of romance and romantic comedies. There are many other things. So when you say romance,

I think of these like sweeping, yearning, like really almost can only happen in movies. And usually unhappy or unresolved or unrequited situations because, I mean, it makes for a great movie. And it's a feeling that always feels dramatic in person and feels larger than life. And when a movie really leans into that and can give it a scale that life can't really have. So I didn't do romantic comedies. I'm very proud of you. Yeah. I do think that romantic comedies can be deeply romantic.

Well, but it's a different mean, it's a different definition. That's a stupid thing to say. You know what I mean? Yeah. They can have that sweep that you're describing, but it's very hard. A lot of romantic comedies end on an upbeat. Yeah. Like on a joke or on a kind of like a winking, like, we did it.

You know, just think of like, you know, Cary Grant and Katharine Hepburn, like, topping off bringing a baby. With a clever moment. One of my favorite movies ever. Right. But that is mostly them just like having a lot of chemistry and charisma and like falling down and one-upping each other. And it's like antic and manic and like the best movie ever made. Why do you think that is, though, that we... When we think of the word romantic or romance,

that we're drawn to unrealized or unpursued love? Because that's what... I mean, what's between Haesung and Nora is love. Of course. It is a deep and abiding love for each other,

even if they don't fully know each other. Well, because sometimes it just makes for a better story. I was thinking a lot about this in comparison to romance novels, which are having like a mega boom right now. Oh, I didn't know that. It's like a huge, huge, huge business. It started sort of with people self-publishing. Okay. And when I say romance, I mean, whatever, we'll get into it.

Those novels are about two people usually who really like each other. They fuck within the first 30 pages. It's great sex. They have a lot more sex and they spend the rest of the book being like, okay, but can I really trust this person? Like, how do I feel about intimacy? And they fuck some more. And then they're like're like well but is this really going to be the like respectful intimacy that i'm looking for and then they have more sex and then it's over is this

just like the post 50 shades of gray like contemporary bodice you're saying yes but it's like doing gangbusters okay um i didn't know that yeah, it started self-publishing on Amazon now. All the book publishers are trying to get into it. Curtis Sittenfeld recently wrote a book called Romantic Comedy, which is not in fact romantic comedy. It's just a romance set at an SNL show. And the head writer basically falls in love with John Mayer when he's the guest. And then a pandemic happens and so they

like exchange love emails and then they get together and they have great sex and then she's like I don't know if I can trust John Mayer to love me and then she trusts John Mayer to love her so anyway I you can possibly tell by my description that I don't enjoy these types of books sex scenes aside which you know thank you but there's no tension in them and there is like the structure of the story is like everything happens at the beginning and then it's like I have everything I wanted do I want it it's like save it for therapy there's nothing like there's no arc to it And so there is an arc to these people are trying to get together and they like yearn for each other. And then it doesn't quite happen. I think honestly, just because that's a better story, that's the story that gets told.

And then we have learned to associate that with romance. One of my honorable mentions, and it's like kind of heresy that i did not put sleepless in seattle on this list but i'm fucking true to my own heart um that movie first of all i like that movie is romantic in the last moments for sure and then but otherwise it's about a journalist with bad personal boundaries but nora Ephron always described it as like it's a movie about what being in love in the movies is like. And I always thought that was very savvy, right? Like we learn something like different. The movie that Meg Ryan and Rosie are watching.

Unfair to Remember. Right. Right. Which is like another honorable mention. And that is a romance and not a romantic comedy. That's a great film. I saw that film at BAM with my wife in 2008. And we were swept up.

Yeah. No, it's beautiful. Yeah. Can I pause at like a slightly more cynical take on like more of a textual reading? Sure. That we come from a pretty puritanical society that like negs sex. Yeah. And negs that kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kind of that meeting of body, mind, and spirit. Right. And that through the history of movies, we've sort of trained ourselves to accept this almost like Pentecostal idea of like you can't quite have all of the lust and longing that you feel you deserve. Yeah. So that you can get to a higher place. It's a very Paul Schrader reading. But in some cases, I think that's a fair reading on creative works. And in some cases, it's not.

Some people are like fully at peace with their own desires and their own exploration of those things. But a lot of the American movie industry is controlled by people with deep religious and moral philosophies that they imbue into the businesses that they have built. So I do think that there's something to that, that as we look at these movies, I look at the movies that are on my list and I'm like, gosh, even the movies that seem to have a lot of sex in them are still like, hey, careful, don't have too much sex, you know, because you might err. to like golden age of Hollywood, 30s and 40s, which invented both like screwball romantic comedy and this like yearning don't have sex drama, which was very much enforced by the code and the morals of, you know,

uptight politicians in America in the 30s and 40s. Did I steal any of your films from my list? Because I did mine first. No. And in fact, I felt like I saw you leave a couple movies for me and I was like, that's very generous.

I was very excited about your number five and your number one. Okay, great. And the others are really good too. Number four, actually,

I have like a, this, another interesting thing was like personal romantic movies versus, number four is a very personal thing. That's so funny, Zach and i also

watched it very early while dating which is just an amazing choice um it was a two-night affair for us but uh it's quite a long film we'll get there yeah uh okay why don't you start us off what's your number five what is my number five um oh i i changed this last night this kept me up for a while last night when i was falling asleep trying to make the list no thinking about the movie thinking about the movie, thinking about the idea of romance in movies and romantic comedies, all of these things. You were in the dock with me at like 10 p.m.

Yeah, man, I was engaged. Doing the work. Like I said, finally, they made one for Amanda. Here I am, I show up. Also an accident go to, you know, I had to take care of a child all day. Number five, I changed last minute from Phantom Thread,

which is a movie that we watched recently in London with a group of lovely people and which I was struck by the romance of, which is a sick thing to say. But I do think, and Zach and I talked about this dinner last night, it's a great movie about a marriage. And I think it is ultimately like a pretty romantic view of a marriage.

But that's like the romance of the everyday, which I feel is important, but it's other thing. So I did another Daniel Day-Lewis and I did Age of Innocence, directed by Martin Scorsese, 1993. Speaking of people who don't end up together and... Spoiler alert for those of you who have not seen

Martin Scorsese's 30-year-old masterpiece. Technically, we also spoiled all of them because not very many of these are happy endings. That's a good point. Yeah. It's kind of baked into the whole discussion we just had. I wonder if this is for contemporary audiences, for folks that are younger than us, Scorsese's least seen masterpiece. I think it probably is. Because it doesn't have that imprimatur of masculine, you know, IMDb top 250 gangster movie Scorsese energy. Right. But it is seen as like

the palate cleanser after the 80s and 90s in a lot of ways. And it also, I mean, what makes all of those masculine male driven, you know, male gangster movies a cut above is i mean sure like the the filmmaking and the music and the editing and everything the crafts but there is also like a deeper you know knowledge and feeling that martin's martin scorsese uses to make movies that is just a fully like hard on its sleeve in in this movie as opposed to kind of being buttoned up um and human frailty and emotional violence exactly these are the things that he does so well yeah um this is a great movie i this should be a this should be a this would be a different flavor of rewatchables but i think would be really funny every time it comes up when you guys do a score

movie and bill's just like age of innocence mich Michelle Pfeiffer and then just like moves on I love Bill I love being on Rewatchables with Bill It's Daniel Day-Lewis I know but you know it's I know

it's not quite his speed that's okay not quite his speed Bill and I agree on the big things I don't think I quite realized celebrating his 30th anniversary this year

that's exciting maybe we should nudge on it what's my number five my number five I thought would be a perfect double feature with past lives, which is Love and Basketball.

Yes. Which is, you know, Prince Bythewood's debut feature, which is about two friends, played by Sanaa Lathan and Omar Epps, who grow up next door to each other and both have a passion for basketball. And their lives kind of intersect and then come apart and then intersect and come apart as they pursue their basketball careers and their kind of livelihood and they fall in and out of love and out of love and one of them certain i would say perhaps the most erotic sports movie ever made um certainly there's a there's a one-on-one showdown near the back half of this

movie that is uh as much sex as you can have with your clothes on in a movie that's like such a fascinating and such a well-written sequence between two people and two just like brilliant performances I think for Epps and Latham like physical, emotional

like the movie is very still for an athletic film and I don't know if she ever quite got back to this feeling in this movie. I mean, this is it. This is kind of her, this is her at the top

of her game. I love this movie. We really like her as a director but this movie is the perfect five star movie. Yeah. My number four is Moonstruck

which I love. I love this film so much it's on my list but I do not consider it to be a romantic comedy. Okay. Because the formula, I mean, they have sex pretty early in the movie you know and then and I mean this follows more or less the romance novel template that I was um mocking earlier in the sense of they meet and they're both kind of you you know, caught up in it. And how are you gonna make it

work? How are you gonna make it work? And then it works. But it's done with both like the right amount of wit and also, you know, operatic emotion. I mean, they do actually go to the opera as well. And then there are also all the side stories of all of the older people. And then, you know, the script by John Patrick Shanley and all the dialogue. It's just, if you haven't seen Moonstruck, we said this on the 1987 draft, but what a movie. I love Moonstruck. I guess I probably would, without giving it much thought, file it as a rom-com. I don't have the same. That's fine. You're not on that committee. Agreed. You're the master. You're the master. But I don't have the same. That's fine. You're not on that committee. Agreed. You're the master. You're the master. But my, I don't have a sense of dogma around the subcategory.

I think part of it is just that John Patrick Shanley cannot be boxed in by formula. That's true. All of his films, all of his screenplays are, reject convention by nature. And sometimes they don't work because they reject convention. Where it's like, you just went way left, my guy. What was the B movie? oh the the Ireland

yeah with Jamie Dornan yeah and Emily Blunt God love her yeah they tried they tried something different

I appreciate it it was kind of batshit but I appreciate it I really like this movie I still think of it that way because it is maybe just because it's so funny

it's really funny it It's really funny. It does, you know what the B plot though with Vincent Gardenia and Cher's parents? That is like, that actually is reminiscent of a lot of the other films

on our list. Yes. There's a kind of like agony. There is like a heartache even to this happy ending, you know? And it really, it has that idea of longing

and just the, is it all like, the world is going to end if this doesn't work out that to me is more in line with romance than romantic comedy. My number four is about the socialist revolution in Russia. It's called Reds. It's one of Warren Beatty's masterpieces.

It's about Jack Reed, who is a journalist and rabble rouser near the turn of the century who wrote the book Ten Days That Shook the World. And it is, of course, about the changing nature

of politics and political structure and power. But it's also a movie about people falling in and out of love. Most specifically, Diane Keaton as Louise Bryant, Beatty as Jack Reed,

and Jack Nicholson as Eugene O'Neill, the famed playwright. And every time that Jack Nicholson is on screen in this movie, I am in pain. I am deeply, and not just because he is like a melancholic Irish-American guy who thinks he's smarter than he is, but just extraordinary performance and the chemistry between Diane Keaton and Nicholson is off the charts. Now, obviously, Warren Beatty is the star and the hero, so to speak, of this film.

This is one of the most celebrated movies in American history. It is, Beatty won multiple Oscars for it. It's almost three and a half hours long. As you said, it can be a two-night journey for many. It has this incredible device of using folks who were present at the time as a kind of testimonial or Greek chorus to the story of Reed and Bryant. So there are a lot of kind of structural hallmarks and it's historical. Right. And that's a specific genre of, you know, love in the time of historical

strife. Yes. And I'll come back to that. This is, I think this almost feels like a commentary on a lot of those movies from the 30s, 40s and 50s that were kind of building towards that. And that this, a lot of the message of this movie is what a mess you know that there is nothing neat about this these kinds of changes in the world both in the lives of the people who suffer at the hands of power but also in the end of on an individual basis um and it's hard for love to persist in the face of all these things but for me there's just a handful of scenes in a country home between nicholson and keaton that is like all world writing, all world acting. Very rarely do you see Nicholson be the one who is cucked.

Yeah. This is not his persona as a screen actor. He is the one who does the cucking. That is really his skill. And to watch him down like this and angry and frustrated and confused because of how strongly he feels for Louise.

And then, you know, Diane Keaton, of course, I think Diane Keaton is just written off too frequently as one kind of performer. Having one kind of screen identity,

you know, that Annie Hall trails her and that the kind of like neurotic, daffy gal who's living in the big city that she has like paved the way for so many other actors

to take on roles like that but she's a very very very good serious actor and her her role as louise is amazing in this movie so reds if you have six or seven days to plow through a movie consider it uh what's your number three portrait of a lady on fire Speaking of sex. There's sex in this movie. Yeah, there's sex in this movie. And I think it's really good. Sex is sex. Sex as connection. Sex as possibility of another life, which is really what this movie is about.

And that's what's very romantic about it. It's like two people who instantly find each other and find something that was not available in their other lives, but also that is not long-term available because of, I guess, the world and time they live in and also her mean mother who needs money and needs to, you know, sell her off to the rich dude. And speaking of Hanele's hanel's character so you know there's like there are time constraints within this movie they only have the you know however many weeks it takes to paint the portrait or days i don't even really remember which is also a good you know amps up the stakes and then one of the great endings. That's just like the last scene. If you haven't seen Portrait of a Lady on Fire,

get in there, crank that Vivaldi as high as it'll go and just let it wash all over you. Do you agree with the Sight and Sound Polls declaration that this is one of the 30 greatest films ever made? I would like to reclaim Portrait of a Lady on Fire as like a really great movie that came out in 2019 that is third on my most

romantic list movies of all time and does not need to bear the weight of all the sight and sound trolls got it uh i think that uh portrait of a lady on fire owes a great debt to my number three and your number two we can pair these two films together be silly to make a list about uh romantic movies without one car why on on the list. Notable that I chose Happy Together and you chose In the Mood for Love. Well, I thought that you left In the Mood for Love for me. I did. Yeah.

Eileen's favorite movie. I thought that was sort of controversial. You know, she's more of a 2046 person. Really? That is some peak Eileen. I know. Well, she likes both of them a lot. I mean, Wong Kar Wai is a staple in our household um happy together i thought would be appropriate for past lives because happy together is the deeply unsatisfying almost mournful romance between two men who travel um from hong kong to

argentina to sort of like explore the kind of the final days of their relationship right and go through this tumultuous breakup and then kind of like reflect on the landscape and the world that they've been living in and the time that they've spent together. It's a film that, like all of Wong Kar-wai's movies, is bound by time, but it doesn't necessarily feel linear.

It feels like it is kind of floating through space. Just an extraordinary performance by Tony Leung in this movie. And the Iguazu Falls sequence, where after their breakup, Fi goes to visit Iguazu Falls in Argentina, is legendary. And I think you probably don't have the movie Moonlight without this movie. The musical cue that happens during that visit to Iguazu Falls is a critical moment in Moonlight. And you can see the way that

this movie and the movie that you're going to talk about are imprinted on the brains of so many kind of international cinema greats that they have like an entire generation yeah um so impactful so we talked about one car why with justin chang i want to say a couple of years ago at this point but um happy together is one of my favorites i mean it's a little hard to say a couple of years ago at this point, but Happy Together is one of my favorites. I mean, it's a little hard to pick a favorite, but this is one that shows, like, I think the kind of, like, burned out feeling of, like, I know that we love each other, but it's hard to stay together. Yeah. Mine on the flip side in the mood for love is sort of the archetypal two people who seek solace in each other and then something more could develop, but they don't take the chance. And then it all slips away.

And you just watch them kind of for the rest of their lives, like, seek out what they almost missed, wonder what they missed. Carrie Candle, it also stars Tony Leung and Maggie Chung, is also just one of the most beautiful and sumptuous, like, visually, movies of this century. And brings that sort of, like, heightened only in the movies. Everyone is, like, glamorous and beautiful and sad.

And beautiful music is playing and it doesn't all work out. I don't have Lost in Translation on my list because this is, I mean, and Sofia Coppola literally thanked Wong Kar-wai in her acceptance speech because this is a direct influence on Lost in Translation and many other films. When I started typing out my list and just kind of freestyling the movies off the top of my head, that was actually the first or second movie I wrote down. Yeah. And then I got to Happy Together and I was like, I can't, you can't really, it's one before the other.

Yeah. And that's related to where I think we're going with my number one too. My number two is Brief Encounter, which is another one of my wife's favorite movies, another one of my favorite movies. It's a very compact movie, like a 90-minute film based on a one-act play by Noel Coward that is directed by the great David Lean, who's best known for these, the sweeping grand vistas of Lawrence of Arabia

and Dr. Zhivago. But in fact, this might be my favorite of his films. It's just about two people who meet in a train station, two married people who fall in love and who start a brief, torrid,

but also very English affair. And it is one of the saddest movies ever made, but I think also has a lot in common with past lives, with thinking about what could be and what should be and the decisions that you've made in your life. And if only you had gone left instead of gone right at a given moment, you might've experienced something different or understood yourself more uh in a slightly different fashion

celia johnson and trevor howard are the two stars extremely unusual like romantic part for trevor howard who i think i always imagine playing like a you know um you know royal navy admiral and not playing a man of romance but there's something so gorgeous about the way this film is shot. There's something so romantic about a train as a delivery vehicle and, you know, the steam and the chugging of the train in the sense that like, we have to, we have to part because something is coming that is going to take one of us away is so powerful. This is just a beautiful movie. If people haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. Okay. Number one. Casablanca. I mean, it has to be. We did a whole episode where we made Bobby watch it. I did immediately flash to the speech at the end of Casablanca when Haesung

starts speaking in Past Lives. I mean, you know, like millions of films have directly referenced it, but you know, that kind of have directly referenced it but you know that kind of this is over but there's there's hope there's something greater um there's the idea at least that we'll both cling to just gets me every time so that's related to my number one too which is before sunset which of course ends in a similar fashion in reverse. Yeah. Where this is a movie that seems to give you exactly what you want, which is that you are

desperate for Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke's characters to, like, return to each other, to accept that they are made for each other.

And despite the choices that these two characters have made and the lives that they've built for themselves, that this reunion after 10 years of not seeing one another after having this fateful night in europe that like the grand romances of the 40s and 50s they deserve to be together and we deserve as

the audience to see them together and they sort of give you that i mean this is the great ending of the 21st century it's the best you know you to miss that plane. But knowing what we know now that they gave us 10 years later, 9 years later. So brutal. This incredibly dyspeptic, complicated marriage. It changes the way that you understand the movie. It's not this overwhelmingly like sweet and sexy like, oh my God, I can't wait. I wish the camera would have just followed them into the bedroom where they consummated this moment we were waiting for it was like you know what no camera did follow them yeah the challenges i don't know sticking together you don't want that the the thing

about something truly romantic it's it is that moment it can't you know that's and then they lived happily ever after you never see that part because we all know it's different and that's what like a in a movie it can end right there and you can have that moment of like peak joy or you know peak devastation and it feels heightened because that's it so before sunrise was released in 1995 before sunset was released in 2004 nine years before midnight was released in 2013 nine years it's Mm-hmm. Before Midnight was released in 2013. Nine years. It's now been 10 years

since you've gotten one of these movies. Don't you think a trilogy kind of wrapped it right up there? That's what I was going to ask you. Do you want another one? Do you think they'll make another one?

They're obviously not adhering to the structure that they previously did. What was I just talking about? You've got to know when to end it. You know? Okay. And I think that's,

you know, trilogies are good for a reason i mean at the end of before midnight love hangs in the balance well do you wait see what what would what would the next one be like you know before before dawn that's before sunrise it's a good question before fika maybe they could set it in sweden okay um and maybe it's a good question before FICA maybe they could set it in Sweden okay great

and maybe it's maybe Selene has passed on and Jesse just like everyday furiously cranking it you know to his favorite novelist

that's beautiful all by himself what do you think Bob you in on that what a way to end this tender podcast I think I would pass on that one

yeah yeah maybe they could merge the under the silver lake universe with this universe and maybe it's sold. Throw that in there. Before cranking it?

That would be good. I don't know. Don't you think they're just like old and well, do they own that place in Greece? I don't know. I mean, this series has always served as like a predictive form for me. Sure. You know, where we're an age where we are like five to seven years behind where the characters are okay in the film so where are we going where are we

headed that's really the question okay okay i really feel that you're in your boat before midnight era no okay not yet you gotta wait for nox to grow up a little bit yeah i guess so yeah once he becomes like a snotty teenager then it it'll be time. I know, God. These are such loaded questions, just unbelievably loaded. I don't think, do you think Before Midnight will go that way for me? I'm sure, I know I'll reach a Before Midnight era. If I'm in Greece and like yelling in a hotel room for one night and then just getting through it. Okay. It's not so bad, all things considered.

I'm not specifically conflating the travails of Selene and Jesse, but an era could indicate. Sure. You know, evolving challenges. But let's break that era down. Okay. Because obviously they're just saying rude things to each other in a hotel room. Yeah. Besides that, they're in Greece for the summer.

Uh-huh. Yeah, you've said that already. You're really clinging to that. Once again, like, I left Europe and my verdict was Europe. It's good. And I'd like to go back. So, and I really did like Greece when I went on my honeymoon. So that's a positive.

And they're there the whole summer, right? I guess so. Okay. I think we need to explore before midnight again. Okay. Amanda's doing like, are we sure it's that bad? Yeah. It could be good.

Well, I'm just saying, you asked me about the eras and I'm weighing things. Yeah, I mean, they seem like they're about to break up in the film. So that's worth noting. Yeah. I mean, but that's the trick of marriage, right? You just got to know to not say that thing that's going to make you break up. Just don't say it. So I think I could navigate that one night.

But here's the thing about you. The thing is that- Sometimes you'll just say it. So I think I could navigate that one night. But here's the thing about you. Sometimes you'll just say it. I know you very well. Maybe not to your husband, but certainly to me on podcasts. That's true. I think that I use this as the outlet, you know, and then I don't say it at home. Zach's going to have some notes when I get home. What's troubling is that Zach is going to say it. So hi, Zach. I love you very much. Well, that's a fitting way to transition. Thank you so much, Amanda, for opening your heart on this podcast. Let's go to my conversation now with Celine Song. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings.

Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. So delighted to be here with Celine Song, director, writer of one of our favorite movies of 2023. Thanks for being here. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So, you know, you're a playwright by trade. You come from a family of artists. Your father's a filmmaker. Did you have anything scratching in the back of your mind when you were studying playwriting,

working on plays in New York that you wanted to make films? Well, actually, I think even before that, I think I was thinking maybe I would go to film school and be a director. And I think that always was something that was sort of the initial impulse. And then I think that I kind of had this conversation with my professor at Columbia when I got into the MFA program. And I feel like in that conversation, it just made me want to move to New York and be a playwright there. So I kind of like pivoted. What was in that conversation? Well, I think that it was just that I think something about the conversation. It was like

a 20 minute conversation about like New York City and what it's like to like be a writer there. And I think there's something that inspired me in the kind of description of that as opposed to maybe moving to LA and then studying filmmaking there. I'm so interested in your playwriting and I have never seen one of your shows staged, but I was reading some of them after having seen the film and having loved it. And the plays are really form-breaking and transgressive and really exciting. And not that the film is not that, but it is classical in a way too. So I'm curious, like as you were making this transition, were you thinking like I have to kind of adapt styles or

understand more of the the conventionality of working in the entertainment industry relative to being a new york playwright well actually i thought it was less about the entertainment industry but i think the medium itself because uh in theater the space and time in theater is actually uh not quite as literal it's not it's meant to be, the form itself kind of is open to abstract space and abstract time. And that's really is in a theater making. And that's what we call theatrical, something that is a theatrical event.

And I think that I, when I'm falling in love with theater and when I'm working in theater, I want it to be the best of its form. So when I was moving into filmmaking, I think it was less about what gets made, because I feel like not everything that gets made in film is

classical, but I think the thing that I was interested in is to be able to tell a story in the literal space, because that's really what to me is at the heart of film. So I think it really was more about the form itself. That's interesting, because when I was looking at the plays, film. So I think it really was more about the form itself.

That's interesting because when I was looking at the plays, I was wondering if in the future as a filmmaker getting way ahead of ourselves, if you would try to do something that was like a little bit more divergent from our expectations in cinema. Oh, you mean like something that has a little bit more of a theatrical form in it?

Well, I don't know. I feel like it depends on if something like that really strikes me. But I think that that's the kind of form, the form of theater itself, I think that is so beautifully served in live performance because of the way that the relationship that it has to the audience is so specific and it's so different than people who's going to watch a movie. So I don't know if necessarily that that's going to be the, where my work is headed really in film, but I think that in theater, it certainly was, it was really so much more about the, you know, I feel like at times the, the, the medium itself would, I think, inform the form that I'm making something in. Yeah.

You also worked in TV, worked in the writer's room on the Wheel of Time. How did that happen? And what was your intention? What did you want to gain out of that experience? Well, I think that I just had a spec script and it was about a professional poker players. Are you serious? This is one of my passions.

Really? Can you tell me about this spec script? Of course. It was about professional poker players. I only wrote the pilot for it. And it was just a spec. And I showed it to the, you know, it was around. And then I submitted it to the showrunner of Wheel of Time, Rafe Judkins.

And he read it. And he does not play poker. But he was like, even though I don't play poker, I was so invested in and I was so connected to the characters and then the uh actually the game in the game itself so he was like actually that is a kind of the perfect trait as a writer that we need for like a big fantasy series because you actually need to parse through new rules of the world and like a maybe a world that you're not familiar with so I think that he uh asked me to join his room as a staff writer and I did and to me it was such an amazing rewarding experience because I learned so much from Rafe about the about leadership really more than anything because

I feel like he was such an amazing leader in the room and I think that I would think about Rafe and what I learned from him uh when I was on set sometimes too so to me that was my favorite part of getting to work with Rafe on the on real time I'm still tantalized by your spec script though what uh what happened what took place will it ever be produced I mean I hope so I mean I still have it and I still care about it so much it's about these uh half siblings who you know who like you know have this like legacy of you know, have this, like, legacy of poker. And it really was about, like, the future of professional poker playing

when there is, like, online and also in person. Oh, my God. This is, like, my dream project, Selene. It's crazy that you did that. It's a spec that I wrote back in, like, I think 2017 or something like that. That's really funny. So you had this experience in the show.

Past Lives was already kind of brewing at this time. Had you written it by this point? I actually wrote it while i was in the room okay in the uh real of time room and i was i think that when i uh wasn't writing the episode and breaking uh stories i think that i was sort of like tinkering and like procrastinating but like really kind of like starting to uh think about what the uh what that movie might be. And I think that eventually I finished the draft. You said you think about the medium specifically, but was reflecting on this story, which, you know, you've said is a very personal in some ways, autobiographical story.

Was it always a screenplay? Was there a world where this could have been a play or something else? Well, it was always supposed, I think it was always meant to be a screenplay because, you know, the story spans, you know, decades and continents. And also it is about like the way that time passes and it's about it spans 24 years in a person's life. And I think that it, of course, means that I have to represent aging. And I think what I was saying earlier about a film being a literal space to me, because you know in contrast to the way the theater is

time and space is very not literal actually so i think uh it felt like the story needed to be told literally and also i wanted to show the different locations you know different cities because the cities are a character in the movie and they actually are part of character because it's important that uh haesung who is one of the characters, is from Korea and Nora, who is one of the characters, is in New York. So I think that really did matter for the story. I love the kind of formal design and the structure of the movie. But when I was watching it, it did not occur to me. It was not intellectualized. I was enveloped by the story, and then I went back to record a conversation about the movie, and I started thinking about

it. And I was like, okay, the 12 years, a recurrence every 12 years, the sensation, obviously, in Yun is a concept being talked about in the film specifically. But I thought it was just brilliant. Do you think that way? Do you think that there has to be a kind of schematic structure to building out a film screenplay? Well, I think that I'm a pretty structural person anyway. And I think I'm a structural writer and a structure. Yes, I think that my thinking really happens structurally. Structure has to come first, I think, for me. So I think, yes, I think that I need to figure out the structure of it first. And then the most fundamental structure of the film actually is the opening scene. And then the way that the opening scene comes back near the end of the film.

So to me, the opening scene where these unseen characters are looking at their three principal characters, Nora, Hyesung, and Arthur, and are just wondering in that scene, the opening scene, about like who these three people are to each other. And to me, I was like, well, this is the way to sort of set up the structure of the film as a bit of a mystery story, right? And maybe there's no murder mystery, there's no like that kind of a mystery in it, but it is a mystery of their lives of like, who are these three people to each other? And then from there, I wanted to go back to the beginning and go to their childhood and to see and go from there. And then the time becomes linear in that way. I felt like the film even at a certain point transforms into a kind of thriller. Like it is really an edge of your seat kind of movie in the third act. So effective. Wonderful.

I'm really curious about the autobiographical part, not necessarily the details of your life, but the stages that you go through when you are doing something like this. Do you seek a kind of permission or like make people aware of the fact that you are pursuing something like this? Obviously, your partner figures prominently into telling a story like this. This person that you had a connection with in your uh in your early days is it is a part of this like when you're writing something are you doing it in a vacuum or are you actually letting the people know who are at least somewhat portrayed here that they will be a part of your artwork um i think that uh in working on the thing i think at one point it is of course uh talked about as

like i'm working on something that i know you you know, like a little, remember that time that I was, we were sitting in that bar and like, I was there and then, you know, you were there and then, uh, this other guy was there and we were like, kind of like talking like this. I, it, the movie is really starting from there. I feel like, I think that kind of revelation to the people who were involved, uh, had to be introduced at different times. And, uh, thankfully because this movie is not a, you know what I mean? It is about the kind of the, it's about the depth of it, right? It's about the depth of people. I think that it is, of course, and also like, it's about people in my life

where it touches on some things that like, you know, in my life that are really loving and I have a really close relationship with in so many ways. I think that it has to be something that we would talk about pretty openly, I think. But of course, I think the thing that like, I think they would know more than anything, and then I know first and foremost, is that this is not really a transcription of something that happened. It's actually so much more like an adaptation of or an inspired by or some kind of a, you know, I sometimes talk about it as a,

is an objectifying of a subjective feeling. You know, it's a subjective experience that is then made into an object. So I think in that process, I think that so much of it just becomes like, it's a movie, you know, and these are characters, you know. And of course it is so easy to just becomes like, it's a movie, you know, and these are characters, you know. And of course, it is so easy to think of like, well, Celine, you're, you know, you must be

thinking that, you know, Nora is you. And I'm like, well, at one point, I think that Nora becomes her own self, you know, and she is somebody who is then going to be, who's going to walk around by herself in a way with Greta too, because Greta who plays Nora, I think that like she eventually rightfully feels more ownership of Nora than even myself. So I think really, I think that really is the process of like, you know, object turning into an object, which is the movie and characters of something that is so personal. This is really fresh in my mind. I just spoke to another writer-director who was really hitting hard on the idea

of the truth of the character, that that was what was guiding him when he was writing the characters and writing through what the plot and the functionality of the story was. And he was like, what rings true and what rings false? But in your case, you're in this unique situation where you have a sense of the truth,

but you also are kind of pivoting from the truth to think about the characters that you also are kind of pivoting from the truth to think about the characters that you've created who are directly inspired by things that you understand on a personal level but then if you bring in actors

and then they kind of redefine how you're thinking about them do you rewrite it all? Like once you've cast have you said actually this isn't exactly what I thought

or did you stick closely to what you had originally conceived? I think it really did stay exactly as what I conceived because like the conceived? I think it really did stay exactly as what I conceived because like the way that I wrote it was really at the heart of the character anyway. So I think that we're trying to search it together with the actor. So it was less about like, well, I'm going to have to shape this so that it fits the actor. I think my actors are

too good for that. You know, they're great actors. So, you you know I think some of it is is that like I know that the part of the work that they love the part of the inquiry that they have is uh discovering character too it's not like they're not showing up being like I need this characters to feel more like myself I think what they're showing up to do is to be like let's talk about who this person is and let's talk about how my work is going to become them you know i think that's really the that's the kind of relationship that we had did you interrogate your partner at all about their memory of this experience no okay because i feel like that could infect that objectivity that you're talking about a little bit well i think that because i think that i part of it is that you have to accept that the experiences that you had are subjective, right? And I think that part of subjectivity is that it is coming from your point of view.

And hopefully it's not a nasty point of view. Hopefully it's a beautiful one. Hopefully it's the one that everybody can connect to in a deep way. But I think from there, I think with that subjectivity, I think that's where... And then, of course, you have to make it objective because then it sort of starts to become about like, what is she going to wear, right? It becomes something where all these people, like hundreds of people show up and they're here becomes the movie. So eventually I just become a filmmaker, right? It becomes a little bit less like the personalness is then becomes about, yeah, like what it's like to, you know, like, is the sun going to go down? Do I have enough time in the day? Yeah, the practicality of it.

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's so interesting. I mean, one other thing about that before I have a lot of questions about becoming a filmmaker because I'm so curious about it. But one of the things that I think is so wonderful about the movie is Nora is, of course, our protagonist, but there are times in the film when I'm really with Arthur. And there are times when I'm really with Haesung

and I really feel like I understand their points of view and the nuance and the complexity of like the decisions or lack of decisions that are made at the different stages of their lives. A lot of times when you see a film that could be classified as like a romance or a romantic drama, you're usually with one person. You're consistently seeing it through their eyes and you're judging how you feel about the choices that they make through their eyes. And I felt my allegiance is shifting all the time while

watching the movie. Like I assume that was an intent that you had? Yeah, well, I think that what I wanted more than anything is for all the characters to have, of course, depth and complexity and everything, but also I wanted them to all have a say in it. I wanted all of them to have a perspective that you can really understand. And I wanted their perspectives to be clear. I wanted to be communicated really clearly. And I think that in that way way that you're not going to walk away thinking though it's very difficult you know so i think

part of it is also like it's a it's a romance and it's a romantic uh it's a triangle uh it's a it's a bit of a love triangle but of course it's not it's not so conventional in that at the end of the day it was she's she's choosing the the person she's choosing is herself and the person that she's choosing is herself and also her life and what kind of life she wants to live and it's really not about the two guys and then those two guys they have their own journeys right they have their own journeys about the way that they are going to choose themselves as well and i think it really is about three people that are choosing themselves you know in this movie so it's really less about uh you know which boyfriend is she going to get right

we're in this complicated moment in independent film where it's harder to get stories so it's really less about uh you know which boyfriend is she going to get right we're in this complicated moment in independent film where it's harder to get stories told it's harder to get non-ip storytelling going all those things you actually have some experience having worked in the wheel of time you know that there's this big apparatus of production your first-time filmmaker your playwright was it hard to get people to accept that you were not just the writer of the film but also the director was that was it sold entirely as this is celine's project and she will be in charge of it how does that work well i think that uh first of all it really does start with the script and how people connect to the script people who uh want who make movies who fund movies i think they uh read the script and

they connect to it and i think they fall in love and then uh that's really all you can hope for and then it's i talk about it sometimes it's like a well, it's a sales document. It's a pitch, right? The script itself, because reading the script has to communicate to the people who is going to pay for you to make it. It has to show them what the movie could be. It's a kind of an imagination document, right? And then I think from there, when it came to being able to direct it, I know a part of it is that like, I'm bilingual and the script is bilingual. So it is kind of helpful to be like, hey, it's a really personal story. And actually I do speak the both languages that this movie has to be in. And I also wrote a script, wrote the script and I, you you know that I know the story and I know the character and um and this is also me you know I have confidence you know I think I can do it uh what do you think and I think that it really is just a bit of that and then of course you have to you know meet a studio like I feel like 824 what they're able to do is that they are able to take

a risk on that and they're actually able to say yes to that and i really felt like i had complete authorial control and a total uh a tourship in making this movie and i think that um all of that is just really comes down to what the studios are willing to do for me right and the producers like what they're willing to let me do and uh what they're willing to let me do and uh what they're willing to let me do given that i'm a first-time filmmaker right but i never felt like they um they used that against me or like made me feel like because i'm a first-time filmmaker i should feel any less confidence than i do you come from a filmmaking family would you classify yourself as

a cinephile uh yeah of course yeah i think we grew up i think i think a lot of us we just grow up watching movies and I think that it's like and it's not just like one kinds of movies you're not just like growing up only watching foreign films

or something like that I think that you watch everything you watch you know like you watch a Rob Schneider movie too

you know of course you grow up watching all kinds of movies your huge Deuce Bigelow film yeah and I think that and then afterwards I think that you also of, of course, you, just like anything, you just like also peruse through kind of obscure things sometimes.

And you go through like really broad things. You know, I was watching some superhero movies too. So I think in that way, I think that maybe I'm not a film snob, but I am a cinephile for sure. I love, I just love it, you know? Did you find yourself citing other films when you were talking about your script and the movie that you wanted to make? Is that something that is necessary when you're a first-time filmmaker? That, oh, think of this or think of that. Actually, because I was a first-time filmmaker, I think the chip on my shoulder was that, like, I really did want to make this movie into something that exists on its own,

like that kind of defies comparison or it has a language of its own that I can really speak to both visually and as a movie, in a holistic way too. So I think that I was really interested in finding a thing that works on its own. So I wasn't really thinking about another movie to talk about it as an homage or thinking about it as the movie's kind of like this. So I think that I was more averse to that. But something that, of course, that I did, which was helpful,

is whenever there would be a filmmaking problem of like, well, how are we going to do the scene? What's the scene like? I think that then, of course, you can look to the movies that I've seen and really pull from those movies some of the tricks and some of the ways that they handle the solution. And then I think that in that way, I did pull from many, many movies, but maybe I didn't look to one movie for the movie to, for past lives to be like, you know? What was it like when you were on set was it what you had imagined it was was it different um i think that uh it is not what i

imagined it was because i have no idea i had no idea what to imagine really but i think the way that i ultimately felt about it is that it really was a discovery for me and it's a discovery of myself you know it was revealed to myself it was a revelation to myself that I am a filmmaker and I don't think that I knew that before and I had a feeling in prep but you know when I'm on set and I think that uh as we were moving on I think that you just have a feeling it's like oh like I'm meant to do this or like I feel at home here or this role fits me like a glove or I think there is a part of it where I just like, I never, I had never felt like that before.

So it really was a, it was a euphoric thing. And I think, uh, I just felt great. You know, I loved it. I think it's my favorite place.

I just want to go back there. What surprised you the most? I think that, uh, how much, uh, how little control you have sometimes or how much chaos there is actually in the world in trying to make a movie because i think that part of being in theater is that the

space that you space and time that you have in the theater is actually controlled it's a room right it's a room that you tell stories in uh every night and it's the same room but in film especially a film film like uh ours film film like past lives it's like it's a movie with many many locations over many many days and sometimes in a different country so some of it is about um accepting uh the things that you cannot control like weather you know how early the sun sets right um and once you know like uh this fire truck we're trying to shoot this final scene it's so important and this fire truck just showed up and parked itself right in front of joe magaro's face and then now joe magaro's face is red and we cannot roll right so there are just things like that where you're like i don't know how to describe it except that it is so much more

like learning how to surf in the chaos of it than uh it is even in theater because in theater there is a bit of control you can have in terms of like what where it's happening or how it's happening but in film it really sometimes you have to uh you have to go with something you know you have to go with the i don't want to say flow but i think that's what i mean i think you have to go with something, you know, you have to go with the, I don't want to say flow, but I think that's what I mean. I think you have to go with the flow. I thought from like a composition perspective, it was really quite beautiful and elegant and not showy until it needed to be. And I was wondering if you were, were you storyboarding or as you were imagining it, were you thinking about how you wanted everything to look or was it a little bit more impressionistic as you were finding locations and figuring out what it

should be well i think that uh i feel like in my work with uh shabby kirchner my dp i think that we didn't we didn't storyboard but i think that we knew uh what we were looking for so i think that sometimes even when we're looking for locations we're looking to find a spot that that shot really works in for example so i think that he was pretty uh controlled in that way but of course i think we wouldn't fully know everything that we wanted to get until we got on set on the day so i think it is some kind of a balance between like trying to be in control and not. And there are some really important sequences that of course are completely planned and completely what we intended to do.

Like, you know, the Madison Square Park or the ending scene. I have some questions about that. There's just some scenes that we're like, we absolutely know. But I think that in some cases, in some scenes like, you know, like the Montauk, the montage there, I think some of those things are a little bit of a discovery because those are meant to be a little bit imagistic. So we're looking for something beautiful there, but when you're not looking for something beautiful, but when the scene has to accomplish something that's really significant story-wise, I think that we already had the strong idea of what the approach was going to be, and then we would get there, and then we would try our approach, and then we would eliminate as we go, you know, really just like, just create a process, you know? Yeah, it's really powerful. I, you know, even though you weren't thinking specifically of other filmmakers or

selling the film on other filmmakers, I think your film is resonating with a certain kind of fan that is identifying it in a lineage of movies that we really are very passionate about. Richard Linklater, Wong Kar-wai, a number of other people who make a kind of stories about time, stories about deep, passionate feeling,

stories about sometimes holding those feelings back. Hearing that now, and the film being as celebrated as it has been, is that good? Is it bad? Is it discomforting? Is it exciting? How do you actually feel about getting put in this lineage of stories like this? Oh, I think it's so wonderful. But I think that it's nothing but amazing. Because I love those movies that people talk about in connection to my movie.

But I think those movies also defy comparison. So I hope that even though it is in the lineage of those movies in a wonderful way, I think that hopefully it is as defying comparison as those movies because the way that those movies want to talk about time and connection and things like that, they're of course in conversation with past lives, but they're not necessarily the same, you know? But I think that's wonderful only. And I think that the lineage actually makes a lot of sense, honestly.

So let's talk about the ending a little bit. This was a spoiler alert, I guess, if you've gotten this far in this conversation. You need to go see this movie. Just one of the best endings in a movie I've seen in a long time. And brilliant in a few ways. Obviously, beautifully written and acted. And the idea of the sequence is so strong. And it doesn't have its chest buffed out, but it works so perfectly as a piece of filmmaking.

Can you tell me about kind of how you landed on the idea of sort of the moving backward in time and then stopping and then moving forward in time that concludes the film well i think that uh it's one of the pieces that i think that i i feel like when i went to uh uh look for this location and talk about this location something that i did was like i really scared my crew because i think i said uh this scene this ending scene is going to make or break the movie. And this scene, this is a hill that I'm going to die on. So we're going to do something that is, we're going to make this happen. We're going to have to make this be this amazing, special thing. Because this is where the movie is, really.

That's really how I talked about it. So I think that everybody kind of knew what that was. And I think the first thing that we need to do is to find a location for it. So I think that so everybody kind of knew what that was and I think the first thing that we need to do is to find a location for it. And I think that this is true for the final scene location but also it's true

for the location where the children say goodbye in the earlier parts of the film. The corner where they say goodbye. So the scenes

the street that we are looking for had to be at once and this is the contradiction of what we were looking for, but it had to be true. In one hand, it had to be mundane, ordinary. You walk by without noting on it. It's just like just a neighborhood. New York Street, I've seen many times. Exactly. And then on the other hand, it has to be stunning, beautiful, impossibly, impossibly New York and has to speak for the whole film, has to feel like the whole film, a total magic street.

So both of those things somehow had to be true. And these are subjective ways to describe a street. So it's also really hard to just like, you can't really Google for that. So what happened was my DP, Shabieh, he, after our office, our pre-production office would close at 7 p.m., he would just go out for two weeks at night because this is also where we're shooting at night. So it had to be scouted at night. And he would just take to the pavement and he would just walk around for two weeks in his village, just sometimes with his gaffer, sometimes with the production designer, location manager, AD and myself. Like he would just go out there. And I think that eventually he found the street. I remember him telling me, it's like, I think I found the street. And I remember going there and then seeing the street and being like, yeah, this is the street, you know? It's so satisfying. It is so satisfying.

It's magical and you know the thing is like when you're in the street and i think that and while we were looking at the street together after he found the street you know of course shabby asked me he's like which uh direction is she walking and of course the answer was so clear you know it had to go from right to left because that is a walk towards the past so the way that it works, the scene works is Nora and Hyesung walk from their home, from Nora's home to the spot where they're waiting for the Uber from right to left.

Like they're walking, they're taking a walk towards the past and then they dwell there and they wait for two minutes. The thing about these two minutes is that I was the one who was queuing the Uber. So I was queuing the Uber with my hand. And these two minutes of silence, they had to be, again, there's a contradiction here again of this time of time, which is on one hand, it has to feel like eternity and like this is never going to end. And on the other hand, it had to feel like it's too soon,

like the car's coming too soon. So the only way to really know how to do that is by trusting my own internal clock for that. So I was staring at the monitor and I was really cuing it with the feeling of like, this has to feel like both too long and too short. And then the car came and the actress didn't know, of course and uh while all this happening oh by the way a piece of wind came we didn't have a wind machine but a piece of wind actually amazingly started to blow on uh greta skirt uh nora skirt and it was also blowing in the direction of right to left into the past you know there was something and we didn't have a wind machine and i was like why did we get a wind machine? It's perfect. And then of course,

once the Uber came, you know, Heson gets in the car, they have their piece of dialogue, the final piece of dialogue. And then Heson gets in the car and he leaves into the past from right to left. And then of course, Nora stands there for a brief moment and she turns around and she starts pushing herself actually against the wind towards the present and the future and when she's done with that walk she's in tears and on the stoop of her home is Arthur who is her present and the two of them and he comes downstairs and he hugs her and they actually go home there in the present. And then in the final, final shot of the film, we watch Haesung drive out of the city. And of course, the same question came, which direction? And in this case, of course, Haesung has to be driven from left to right into the future, into the present, into his own post-closure, post-goodbye life, you know? So I think that that really was the whole concept for it, but I think it was so natural. It was so obvious that it needed to be like that. We laid 150 feet of track for it,

and there were so many ways that it could have all gone wrong so quickly because, you know, my location manager, Joe Mullaney, said if the car parks in the spot where we were trying to lay the track, even like one car that parks against the sign, like, you know, the signage says you can't park there. But if they do park there, the shot is gone. Right. signage says you can't park there, but if they do park there, the shot is gone, right? And we're also shooting this on a Friday night in East Village. It's East First Street between First and Second Avenue. Careful, I feel like this may become a landmark of some kind. You'll have people taking photos there all the time. I love that. I mean, it's so much shorter than you think, though. It's so funny because I was there thinking that it's an eternity to walk that little bit of a little bit of a sidewalk but I went there a few months after we shot there and I felt like it was like that it was almost nothing it was really you couldn't really feel the length

of it you know um but anyway but it's like in on either side of the of the the shot of that particular shot there was a zoo you know because it was east village on friday night you know a lot of drunk people like yelling and asking like the audio has so many questions like what are you guys shooting here you know is it spider-man like they were all asking and we were like no we're just shooting this really penultimate scene oh my god i've never seen my gaffer more stressed out also it was so hard to light you know and you have to clear every single one of those buildings so and in a sense a part of it we're like uh getting it i think because i said this is where the movie lives or dies that everybody sort of came together

to make this kind of a miraculous thing happen and And this is what I really wanted with Shabby A. When we were talking, we wanted to be spectacular, but we also wanted to feel simple. We wanted to be a completely a simple idea. We didn't want it to be anything too wild. We wanted it to feel like the rest of the movie, but something about it will be spectacular. It's remarkable because the scene is so quiet and so tense that the idea of there being this chaos on either side is hard to fathom.

You know, it's like you sliced out a piece of New York City and transported it somewhere else you could film. Really amazing. It's really quite wonderful. The film has been like hugely celebrated. It was, you know, great success out of Sundance. It seems like people are really loving it. I don't mean this to be a stupid question, but are you surprised? How are you feeling about becoming a, you know, a star independent filmmaker? I think that when you're making a movie, it is really hard to think about anything outside of the making the movie, the

best movie that you can possibly make it right for that moment and i think that it's like it really felt like such a secret that i had with the people who who i made it with who uh love it and care for it and they they knew how they felt about the movie just like i knew how i felt about the movie and it was a bit of a secret you know and uh at sundance when it first premiered and was really uh shared with the world in a significant way I think what we all felt and what I really was feeling the whole time was like this feeling of like it's the secret is going to be gone right that I'm no longer have the secret now it's going to be in the hands of the world and who knows what the world's going to feel about it who knows what the what

they're going to want from it but at the end of the day that's why we made it right we wanted to be a part of the world we wanted to be shared so i think that it is both you know you do let something go in that it's not just your little project that you love and you just made, but also you see that the, the, it's going to be now in the hands of everyone, you know, hopefully everyone comes and takes it. And then I hope they also let it get under their skin the way that it got under my skin, you know? It's a very humble question, humble response to my dumb question. The one thing that we, my co-host and I said about the show or about the film after we saw it is it's the kind of movie that you want to go out to dinner and discuss after you've seen it. I

think it will, I suspect there'll be a little bit of like a fan culture debate around this movie, which seems silly for something that is so deep and so pure, but it also drives a lot of what if, a lot of sliding doors, a lot of curiosity about if put in a similar situation that I think is just beautifully told. So you're a filmmaker now. You're making another film. Do you have a script? I wrote a script last year. Is it not about poker players?

It is not. But now you're making me feel like I should really visit those poker player. I think you're on to something. That might just be my perverse taste. No, no, not very good, but I do like to play. And I'm just, like I said, I'm tantalized by the concept. Me too. It is interesting.

I'm developing a thing about e-sports that I, a TV show about e-sports. It's very hard to make that dramatic. I know. I would love to know where you land on that. I mean, I can't wait. Even here at The Ringer, we cover sports and I don't know how to cover esports it's not really it's a huge world and obviously people are massively invested but well i think that it is really about how quickly it uh i think it changes it's i think that really is hard to fathom because like

it's a it doesn't have a it's really hard to build history, you know, as a sport. And so much of sports is about history. You talk about history making, you know, but you can't really talk about history if the league itself is only 10 years old. Oh, it's true. And who is on top changes even faster than any other sport. But it's related to past lives in a way. This is the idea of marking time and how you understand yourself better through a period of time. Wow, totally.

Anyway. I'm going to use that. Okay, feel free you understand yourself better through a period of time. Wow, totally. Anyway. I'm going to use that. Okay, feel free to take it. I mean, these are your themes, Celine. Celine, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen.

Have you seen anything good recently? Yes. What did I see? What did I see that was great? I feel like the, you know, the last thing that I saw, I was truly, can I say, like, I think a part of it is like when you're releasing a movie, it's hard to imagine that there are other movies, even though, of course, there are other movies. I've heard this before.

Yeah, right. There's something amazing about it. You're just like, you're so, I mean, it's just, there's an intentionally a self-obsessive part of it where you're like you're talking about your own movie every day every hour that you're like there are other movies but anyway um the movie that i'll watch that i really love was uh you hurt my feelings oh fantastic film so fantastic and also julia is i think the funniest person on earth and i think um and i think it's amazing because she met also the really just the most most funny filmmaker in Nicole. And I think it's just such a magical thing. They were on the show a couple of weeks ago and it was like two sisters talking.

You know, they are so synchronized and they connect so deeply that you can see, I mean, they should just make 10 movies together. They're so fantastic. Of course. It's a great recommendation. Hey, congratulations on this wonderful film. I really liked talking to you.

Thanks for being on the show. This was so fun. Thank you for such a great conversation. Great. All right. Thank you. Thank you to Celine Song. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner,

for his work on this episode. Later this week on The Big Picture. Different flavor. This is insane. Different flavor. No one forced you to do this. I'm doing it. Well, I wanted to talk about Star Wars.

That says everything you need to know. I wanted to talk about Transformers Rise of the Beasts. I don't want to force you to go see it. Thank you. CR is in Europe. Even CR really can't get into the Transformers movies.

I don't really have a partner for this because Transformers lives inside of me. So I've been re-watching the Transformers films. I enjoy them. I'm going to see this film on Wednesday night. I'm going to a fan-only screening.

Think about that so I can give you the real dirt on what's going down. And then maybe we'll do a little Sean mailbag. Okay.

We'll take some questions from all my Transformers. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Will you tweet them at the picture account? Maybe I will. Maybe if I get it in the right headspace. Okay. Will you tweet them at the picture account? Maybe I will. Maybe if I get it

in the right headspace. Okay. That sounds great. In the meantime, let's see past lives again. I feel like we're going to be talking about it a lot over the next year.

I hope so, yeah. Thanks for listening. We'll see you then. you