The Big Picture - Paul Dano on Directing His First Film and Adapting Richard Ford's 'Wildlife' | Interview (Ep. 89)

Episode Date: October 25, 2018

Ringer editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey chats with actor and now screenwriter/director Paul Dano to discuss the trials of directing his first film and adapting one of his favorite authors, Richard Ford. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

you're only there once. You only get to do these scenes once on a film. So you've got to leave it all out on the floor. So because the film was shot somewhat economically, we were able to do a fair amount of takes, sometimes a lot of takes, and create an atmosphere where you can fuck up, you can fail.

Let's find a happy accident. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and you are listening to a new and improved version of The Big Picture. For the past two years, this has been a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world. And it is still that, but we're expanding and spicing things up. The show now has its own feed and a few new wrinkles. Starting very soon on this feed, I'll be co-hosting a weekly Academy Awards show

with Ringer Culture Editor Amanda Dobbins. We'll be previewing the races, examining the narratives, and shining a flashlight on all the BS that surrounds Oscar season. We're also going to have weekly exit survey episodes where myself and other Ringer staffers will be diving deep into the latest movie releases. We're grappling with how to cover an industry and medium that is changing every single day, and hopefully the big picture will be a place where you can come to hear from filmmakers, keep up with the Oscar race, and discover a new movie you're going to love. And for our first episode in this new experience, we have a guest. It's Paul Dano, who until this month has been known as an actor of impeccable taste.

He's worked with some of the best filmmakers alive, among them Paul Thomas Anderson, Denis Villeneuve, and Steve McQueen. Dano is a filmmaker now, and his directorial debut is one of the most finely observed movies of 2018. It's an adaptation of Richard Ford's novel, Wildlife. It's the story of a family slowly coming apart in Montana in 1960. Dano and I share an affinity for Ford's writing. When I interviewed Ford in 2016, I asked him about his writing process. He told me, quote,

I'm never in a hurry. I try things out. I try things on. I throw things out. I move things around. In the process of doing all that, you have an opportunity to ask yourself the signal questions of, do I want to see this on the page? Do I think that might be interesting?

Do I want to live with this for the rest of my life? Dano and I talked about just that, his aspirations as a filmmaker, and a lot more. Here's Paul Dano. Man, I'm so delighted to be joined by Paul Dano, who has his directorial debut, Wildlife, out now. Paul, thanks for coming in. Yeah, thanks for having me. Paul, you know, I'm a Richard Ford fanatic. Why is this your first film? I'm so fascinated that it is.

Great. I, too, was a Richard Ford fan. I had just read Rock Springs, which is a book of short stories that I really love, and I really love the language that that book is written with. So the sports writers make maybe like a slightly different kind of style. And something about Rock Springs, I was like, I want another book like this. So I was in the bookstore, opened up Wildlife. The first sentence and paragraph remains one of my favorites ever. Can you share it with us? In the fall of 1960, when I was 16 and my father was for a time

not working, my mother met a man named Warren Miller and fell in love with him. That's the first sentence. I won't go the whole first paragraph. I think I got it. So I was in the bookstore. I was like, okay, this is my kind of book. And so reading it, I've wanted to make a film for a long time. I have just not been able to write one. I've put down little images or scenes or whatever. But I was not purposefully looking for this book to be the book. But even 27 pages in, I was having some, you know, sort of uncanny feelings, like, which is, I think, what great writers or artists do, where it's like, did this guy, you know, there's like a window into some experience of mine here. So I fell in love with the book. I asked my partner Zoe to read it, who's a proper writer.

She said, what do you think? We talked about it. She saw why I loved it as a person. No, no, she loved it too, but she sort of saw why I. What connected. Yeah. And finally, when I thought of the ending, which is different from the book,

and particularly the final shot, that's when I was like, oh, I think I can write it. Because I wasn't even sure at that point. And that kind of sent a ripple effect backward. And I was like, okay, I think I can, now I think, I've thought about it for a year, I think I can finally attempt this. So I wrote to Richard Ford. On a practical level, had you talked to people before about saying,

like, I'd like to give you money to make a film of your choosing? What really happens when you say, I'd like to adapt this novel and make a film out of it? Do you then have to go kind of pitching around town and telling the world, it's my time to be a director? Totally, yes. And so the first step, we optioned the book with our own money so we didn't have to answer to anybody, which was a very smart move for us in retrospect, because it just allowed us to cultivate the script

the way we wanted to and on our own time and that was great and frankly we were paying our rent through like acting and so this was kind of like hey this is ours let's you know let's get it where we want it to be so the process of getting it made was you know I as a first-time filmmaker definitely have an advantage being that I'm an actor. So when I call an agent or producer, they're probably going to call me back. You know, it's just like a—it was so much harder than I thought, though. Really? Yeah.

What did you encounter that was difficult? Well, it's money. You know, and I look back now on writing, and I think, oh, God, that's the only part of making a film where I actually had time. Because once money's involved, time is just like gone. You know, it's like, you know, you're spending money and that's your budget and the clock is on. So it wasn't necessarily sort of raising the money per se, but the concept of like money expiring at all times.

Yeah, no, I should, I mean, maybe I skipped a beat there, but that is how it feels. But it's a movie that takes place in 1960 Montana. It's about a family. Just like every Marvel movie you've ever seen. Exactly. It's like super classical American. I think the material is resonant.

I think it's for anybody who's had a mom or a dad or a kid or whatever. I think there's something in there, but it is a drama. It's a drama. So much of it is predicated on who's going to be in the film, how much you're going to make it for, where you're going to shoot it, tax credit, this and that. And really, you push a rock up a hill, I would say until like day two of photography,

and then suddenly you start to feel the rock maybe going down the hill just a little bit. You're like, okay, we're actually doing this and we're making a movie. I saw Jake in the movie and I was like, okay, I know Paul and Jake have worked together. I suspect that there was some sort of relationship and that helped make this happen.

Carrie is the counterweight, Carrie Mulligan. They're both fantastic in the movie, but was it essential to get two figures as notable as them to make a movie like this happen for you? Yes, probably, but also aim high regardless. So why them in particular? They're really good actors, right? So it works out that it helps the film.

Carey and Zoe did a play on Broadway together about 10 years ago and shared a dressing room and they're friends. And hence, I became friends with Carrie. And I actually met Jake for the first time at Carrie's wedding. Oh, wow. Before I'd worked with him.

Some synchronicity here. Yeah. So we thought, we started with Jeanette, the mother character. She's, because she's sort of so challenging really and complicated and mysterious and it's really fine line to walk for any actor. And I feel like I wanted to see Carrie get to be messy and like the phrase in the rope and like the kind of split ends and you uh you know first of all she's english so a lot of the english parts it's just kind of a different type of

something and and then you know it turns out she feels like she just hasn't had the opportunity to do that partially because i think from her perspective and zoe's women don't get that opportunity on screen um as much uh and it seems like it cuts a little bit against type because we think of Carrie as, I don't know about sweet necessarily, but there's a warmth to her. Absolutely. And this is a very complex woman who's doing things, particularly to her son, that is very hard to unpack and understand why she's doing these things. I think it's Carrie's best ever performance that I've seen. I think she's really amazing in this movie. Me too. I I suspect that it was a bit of a challenge for her too yeah and that's I think it's all that's also being an actor like whenever you get that kind of

part that gives you that chance to do a little something to unpack one extra piece of yourself you don't get to or the challenge usually you get your best work so i was hoping carrie would respond and and she did immediately um and i don't think just because we're we know each other i wouldn't expect them and i wouldn't ask them to do that so it was really about the script and the character and um she you know she uh she went all in and right from the start like from the first phone call like she knew you know she was like this is um yeah let's get to work it's so great when you have actors like carrie and jake who like really challenge you and challenge the script you've written and they ask

questions and you go and suddenly you have to you know relook at something you've spent a few years on and go okay yeah let me okay i actually, this is why this is here. And, and so that collaboration, uh, is like so fun. Let's talk about that a little bit, because I jumped ahead. I do want to talk about the writing. So I have two questions about this one specifically, why do you think there are not more Richard Ford movies adaptations of his films? Cause I saw that you were making this movie and I was like, well, this is a no brainer. This is going to be incredible. And I I've read almost all of his books. I really admire him, but he does have a cinematic tone and it's unusual that there haven't been many. And then on top of that, I do want to hear what it's like to write with Zoe and write with your partner in close quarters. I imagine that's a unique process. So maybe you could talk about

those two things. Yeah. I, you know, I don't know. I know stuff has been optioned of Richard's. In fact, when I wrote to him, he might have even thought, oh, here's another option that's not going to happen. Yeah, sure. I don't know. And I just don't know is the answer. He, though, had the sort of wisdom of knowing about film. One of the first things he said to me was my book is my book and your picture is your picture and you should establish your own you know values essentially

and it was like well that's like a sense of permission from somebody you admire that's so important yeah it is what you want to do but like it's kind of like okay you know um that's a really nice way to start uh have you shown him the film? Yeah. How did that go? I think he really loved it. Yeah, he did. And it's funny, we talked after, and we kind of went through the film, and he was really, I think, happy,

but there were certain things, he was like, you know, I loved that moment, or when she said this, and I'd be like, oh, that was in the book, and he'd go, no, it wasn't. I was like, yeah, no, I'm pretty sure in the book and he'd go no it wasn't I was like yeah no I'm pretty sure it was and he was like I don't think so and we both didn't know anymore but I think he was

just that book's from I think 1990 so I thought that was just kind of sweet somehow either you tapped into his vein or you just used what he wrote yes no no there's a lot from the book that's in there and that I love. And particularly some of the,

I mean, there's some beautiful dialogue and just surprising things that I don't have perspective on now, but finally doing these things, I go, oh yeah, when I first read this, I felt in that diner scene when she asked about his name and her age. It's my favorite scene in the movie.

Yeah, it's very beautiful. I don't know that anymore. So when it's reflected back to me to q and a i'm like oh yeah i felt that like you know yeah richard was great and it was fun to have a correspondence with him as you you would also probably feel because he even his emails are nice you know i have emailed with him a couple of times they're quite elegant yeah i interviewed him a couple of years ago and we emailed and it's yeah i agree it's uh great it's a It's a literary gift just in your inbox. It is. I know.

So Zoe is a proper writer. I wrote the first draft. I wrote it not in screenplay format. I wrote it kind of like a gut by the image more thing. That really made sense to me. What does that mean? Is it like a treatment how does that look it's just it just means i don't even think i had final drafts i think i just went to

word i i thought it was a script zoe did not think it was a script um i gave it to zoe to read she came out of the room after reading this was my first thing i'd ever written and i was like waiting and she was like it's good and I was like oh fuck you know you know that was just like devastating you know you wanted her to wrap her arms around you and say you're a genius or something but you know the way she said it's good it was like you know so and just every page was dog-eared and had you know and and we started to try to go through it and that was not you know that didn't work um not that you know it was not like a not like we were fighting in a way that was like truly unhealthy for our relationship it was just tough to communicate about the first

draft and she basically said why don't you let me do a pass i see what you're trying to do and she knows me she knows like what the the film was the film from the get-go it's like you know she knows what the aesthetic you know like and she's like i think it'll be easier if i just show you instead of telling you and i was like great oh you felt comfortable with that you didn't feel okay no no no no no she's a good writer you know and she was able to use sort of like dramatic structure to help take the guts of what I had taken from the book and stuff that I had put in that I felt connected to it wasn't just a direct translation of the book you know I tried to kind of I was definitely I was even writing

questions into the first draft like why am why am I doing this? You know, essentially, but like, uh, so I moved to a new town when I was 14 and my parents were my world at that age because I moved to a new town. And that's part of why we made the kid 14 instead of 16. And just like, what was I, what, what am I working with? And, but she helped to really bring structure to it and take sort of multiple images and put them into like one more complicated scene instead of mine was probably a bit more vignette and then we would just sit down and talk sometimes for quite a while really interrogate something and then one of us would take it and do a pass whether that was on a section or the whole thing it was kind of like if zoe was shooting zoe was shooting olive kittredge and I'm hanging around

and doing a pass on the script and vice versa. So tell me about directing and what that experience was like for you because if you look at your filmography as an actor, you seem to have really good taste in filmmakers and like Paul Thomas Anderson, Kelly Reichardt, Paolo Sorrentino,

you've worked with a lot of really great filmmakers, especially in the last like 10 years. So, what kind of director were you trying to be on set and what was, maybe you can tell me about what your set was like. Yeah, great. Well, I think my love of film

and desire to make film impacts my acting in a way because I care about the film and the filmmaker as well as the character. It's not just like,

is it a juicy part? I get that sense, yeah. Yeah, it's just what makes sense to me. Is it with the thought that you wanted to do this someday so you're trying to learn as well? Not so much. Well, no,

I think it's just more like how do I give a real piece of myself to something unless I really care about it. Right. So it is that, though, because, again, once I got into film, I really got into film. I came to acting through the theater, and then once I kind of got into film,

suddenly the medium really turned me on as an audience member and a student. So yes, but there's just no way I'm on set as an actor and sort of observing why the camera is put where it's put. On a day that I'm working, you're sort of there for that. You're focused on that. Yeah, you have to be. So what kind of director were you then?

Were you forceful? Were you searching? Searching is good. Searching's good and that's, I think, always just a part of it. Did you storyboard this movie? No, but it was...

Wrapped out? Yeah. I would say so. There's like a handful of moments, maybe seven to eight moments that there's a couple of kind of tracking No, but it was, you know. Wrapped out? Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. I would say. There's like a handful of moments, maybe seven to eight moments that there's a couple of kind of tracking dolly shots or some moves that you're making that felt like things that were really conceived. Yeah. You know, is that something that you were doing ahead of time as well? Yes. Yeah, for sure.

And from day one of daydreaming about the movie and writing the movie. I mean, you know, one of the coolest things that I've realized is that you're making the movie every step. You know, I mean, it's changing, and it becomes a different film. And also, I can't choose where to put the camera unless I know how it's going to cut. Like, why would you choose that camera setup? You know, you don't just do it to do it.

So you sort of have to have a storyboard in your head. And my cinematographer, Diego Garcia, who's a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful wonderful person and DP also thinks that way it's sort of why we I think work together where we kind of have to know why we're putting the camera where we put it and and potentially how it's going to cut that doesn't mean it will cut that way and there's many scenes where it didn't but there are scenes where it did too um for me to get back to your question because it was it's what I like, definitely probably the biggest thing I've taken away from being on so many sets

and I'm so lucky I've had that experience to bring to my own is what I would call the temperature on set, which I love. And as an actor, when the crew is part of it, you feel it and it's great. So a lot of the directors, directors you mentioned, their crew is usually happy to be there. They want to be there making that movie. And as an actor, you can feel that. What do they do?

How do you capture that? How do you hit the right temperature? Hard work and a lot of care. Technically, you're the leader or something or captain of the ship. I don't want to call myself that. Sure. I mean, the direct, you know, so your energy is, it's possible you can guide the sort of, the vibration or whatever, you know. People do that in different ways, I think, but I think the care you bring to it, hopefully people jump on board. And also, part of your job, it's a little bit like parenting.

Like, I'm there to get the best out of everybody, too. I'm, you's, it's a little bit like parenting. Like I'm there to get the best out of everybody too. Um, I'm, you know, it's all Carrie, you know, this performance is it, but I'm just there to like, I'll create the space for her to be her best self and give her that opportunity and nudge her occasionally. And I love the, the, the searching thing I liked because you're only there once. You only get to do these scenes once on a film. So like you got to leave it all out on the floor. So because the film was shot somewhat economically, we were able to do a fair amount of takes, sometimes a lot of takes, and like create an atmosphere where you can fuck up, you can fail. Let's find a happy accident, you know, because the camera's quite composed so it's kind of the actor's inner life that's the movement i feel like did you because it's a period piece as

you said 1960 did you watch films from that time were there films that you felt like were kind of signposts for this this one so there were films that certainly diego and i talked about but it wasn't to do with like the period you know it wasn't to do with like the period, you know, it was more to do with like the spirit. So, you know, whether it was John Ford's Grapes of Wrath or Hirokazu Kore-eda's Still Walking or, you know, just different stuff,

but they have nothing to do with the time period. The time period is probably more to do with photography or painting or feeling. And that was a real, this was why I wanted to make a film, was to make the images, essentially. I mean, it's your cinematographer, but working with the camera was really exciting to me. And the best thing about doing a period film,

even though I cursed myself a million times in pre-production because it's expensive and limiting and it's hard, is that you actually get to create the frames. Because I can't just point the camera at you because some detail is not correct. So the colors and the textures, and like we really kind of, my costume designer, production designer,

cinematographer and I, like we really got to make the movie. And I like that as an audience member, like stepping into a world, you know, or an aesthetic or whatever. I mean, it's kind of a hackneyed thing to say, but it is painterly. It's got style know it looks like a still photograph come to life a lot of the time which is kind of a compliment when you're working on something in that time period too

because we've seen so much of what that looks like but very rarely when it's alive yeah I mean I think that was you know something we wanted and a lot of that is Diego just being uh an incredible collaborator but I also think that there's like a portrait sort of theme in the film. And so I think there's something of that in terms of the stillness of it. So as you're making a movie like this, one of the things that I like about Ford's work that is complicated about Ford's work is he uses very big, obvious themes at times. And there's a a big obvious theme in the middle of this movie which is sort of fire and burning and what that means to a family to a community to a country

interested to hear you talk a little bit about like what those themes are for you but also like how you contend with them and make them not hokey because in a novel setting you can imagine it and you can create it for yourself and it can be at the scale that you want but you actually go out and have to visualize that for your for for the audience so what was that like yeah that is a tricky balance and and i've i think i've always been a less is more person um probably just what i respond to in in life so um you know the fire i think if you asked richard ford i i he would he would not want it to be a metaphor or he would not say it right so it's funny to um i think it's something for each character you know i that thing that the sort of american dream of like

on the horizon it's always better when I get there, I'll be happy. That has always been really interesting and moving to me and sort of a trap almost sometimes. And there's an image in the book that's not in the film. Almost was in the film until you realize that we can't afford to do it. And it doesn't need it. But it is, there's a bear up in a tree. Very, very famous moment in this book. Yeah. The tree catches fire and fire rushes up the tree and the bear up in a tree. Very, very famous moment in this book, yes.

The tree catches fire and fire rushes up the tree and the bear drops to the ground and like a ball of flames and runs off into the distance. I think bald lightning is the way he describes it, right, in the book? Yes, it was like bald lightning. Yeah. That's exactly right. Beautiful. I sort of feel like that's like the parents in this, you know, like they both, what I like about something like Jeanette's transformation or her journey or, or whatever is,

you know, a spark can cause a fire like very quickly. Um, and it doesn't have to take a lot of time. And I like that like one moment in life can like set you off on a different course. And then technically like that sequence was day three of filming. We only got to do four days in Montana. That's all we could afford.

The rest was in Oklahoma, where they have a great tax incentive. And Oklahoma was great to us. But the spirit of Montana is important for me and for the film. And as you said, with Rock Springs, that's also where this story takes place. It's the same setting.

There's something connected to those two things. Yes. In fact, one of the short stories in Rock Springs, there's, I think one of the families is named the Brinson's. It's a totally different story. But we knew

when we were writing that we would only show the fire in one shot. It's less is more. It's don't show the shark in the first hour, that kind of thing. Yeah.

Let's talk a little bit about you and kind of what you're going to do. It's funny, in the last few weeks on this show, I had Ethan Hawke here.

I just talked to Jonah Hill earlier this week. There's a bit of an actor-filmmaker moment happening right now. And I keep asking these folks, like, are you a director now? Is this your job now? What do you identify as? I don't want to be too simplistic about it,

but I'm interested in, is this the direction you see your career going? Yes and no. I mean, I can't wait to make another film. Is that something that is starting to happen already? No. It could take a while, but it is definitely, yes, it's going to happen someday. Okay.

I don't know what it is, but there's an idea maybe. But anyway, it is definitely, but I've always felt sort of like reactive to the like i when i get bored is when i get sad kind of or you know something so you know after wildlife i went and did this like prison thing that is like so physical and like you know it's so what is that it's this thing called escape at danimora it's going to be this mini series. Oh yeah, on Showtime. Yes. Okay. And it's, it was a reaction to like not acting for over a year, being in a nice edit room with air conditioning and just working in a really calm, like a normal job.

And you needed to punish yourself. I needed to go. Yeah. Well, I needed to go. Yeah. Like break shit and sex. And like,

you know, it was just like, and now that was a six or seven month shoot it's the longest i've ever done the next thing i'm gonna go do is do a play and it's because i think after a long thing like that like i need to shake up a process i'm like okay i need to like something you know to shake up just spending seven months on camera um so i do feel a little bit pliable meaning i don't know that i would be just like on one thing, like I'm only a director now or I'm just an actor. It seems like you're doing actually the opposite.

You're kind of multiplying all of your opportunities. Seems smart. Only a couple more questions, Paul. What is your feeling about success for Wildlife? How will you know if you have done the right thing? Obviously the film is done and I'm sure that you're happy with it but we're in this complicated moment with independent film and the way that people find films and

see them so for you personally what will success be? That's kind of a hard question. I know that we succeeded because I got to make the film I wanted to make and so that's like one level of wow like okay that's actually a, you know, beautiful thing to be able to say, like, the film is the film I wanted to make,

you know, and not every, you know, people have horror stories. And it's still hard for me, though, when I go to see, you know, with an audience, and is the sound right in the picture? And, you know, what's the vibe? And, you know, it's funny, very vulnerable. A lot of years of work, and I find it to be incredibly vulnerable to share it. As a performer, do you have an awareness of sort of like the critical reaction to something? Do you look at the box office? Do those things matter to you? Well, as a director, it is totally different because I'm involved in every step of the process right now. So, yes, I get the, you know, reports on what people are saying.

Because you're trying to kind of figure out, okay, like, how can we help kind of guide this film out into the world? As an actor, I can look the other way. You usually know. I mean, you just know, but I usually don't read stuff. Yeah. As a director, I think, I think actually like maybe it's even part of my job to kind of know because I'm actually involved in like the marketing of the

like you know we were working on a poster we're gonna trailer we're collaborating and our IFC has been great about that and and so I do feel somewhat of a responsibility to kind of know No. I, of course, would like the film to succeed on many levels. I feel really proud, especially of like Carrie and Jake and our kid Ed, who I think is like a real actor. And Diego's work and Akeem and my production. I feel like a proud parent or something and now we're kind of sending this film out. It's very good you have a lot to be proud of well thanks

I'll let you go on this I know that you haven't had that much time to watch a lot of films lately but I we do end every show by asking filmmakers

what's the last great thing that they've seen you're a filmmaker now Paul what's the last great thing you've seen okay I've just been re-watching

the first season of Big Mouth to get ready for the second season oh god that's very funny that's been rewatching the first season of Big Mouth to get ready for the second season. Oh God, that's very funny. That's a funny show. What do you like about Big Mouth? I mean, I, you know, so I think a lot of my work is kind of serious, you know? Yeah. But there's weirdly synchronicity between wildlife and Big Mouth, I think. Wow. I like that. Think about that, you know, this sort of coming of age, figuring out who we are, what have our parents done to us? Sure. There's something there. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I, you out who we are, what have our parents done to us. There's something there.

Okay, yeah. That's just a part of me that needs time. So I find a lot of my home viewing to be a laugh. And then what else? Zoe and I watched, you know what we were watching? We re-watched Shortcuts recently. Great Altman film. And I don't know why.

I think she'd never seen it. And I was so impressed by the flow. That movie's kind of like, the editing is kind of like water or something. Like it moves between stories very quickly, actually. I don't remember that, but it's not like you're with one story for a long time and then with the other. Like it's really cross, and it really flows.

And that's quite an accomplishment of, I guess, writing and directing and editing. So I liked it even better than I did when I saw it ages ago. Yeah, it's amazing how you can appreciate things when you know how things work as you get older. Yes. Paul, I'm sure you're learning more and more every day. Thank you very much for doing the show. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks again for listening to this week's episode of the big picture on the new big picture feed. We truly appreciate it. If you have not subscribed and you're listening on channel 33,

please go do that right now. And I just want to send a special shout out to my producer, Zach Mack, who is leaving the ringer and has helped me so greatly in developing the show over the years. Thank you, Zach, and good luck in the future. Thank you.