The Big Picture - ‘Project Hail Mary’ Will Amaze! Amaze! Amaze! With Phil Lord and Chris Miller

Episode Date: March 20, 2026

Sean and Amanda open the show by reacting to a ton of movie news, including the Oscar ratings being down 9 percent from last year, the new trailer for ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day,’ and Kirsten Dunst joining the cast of the upcoming ‘Minecraft Movie’ sequel (1:22). Then, they cover the biggest movie event of 2026 so far: Phil Lord and Chris Miller’s science fiction film ‘Project Hail Mary,’ starring Ryan Gosling (31:57). They break down why the film’s practicality is incredibly essential to its success and how the movie is beautiful in a way that mainstream Hollywood productions typically aren’t. Finally, Sean is joined by Lord and Miller themselves to discuss why they felt Andy Weir’s novel was the perfect source material for their next project and how the complicated process behind shooting space scenes was incredibly rewarding (1:08:19). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Phil Lord and Chris Miller Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan®️. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there®️. Drivers wanted. Learn more at https://vw.com  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the big picture a conversation show about a Hail Mary in the first quarter. On today's show, we will dive into the highly anticipated Ryan Gosling Space Saga

Project Hail Mary. Then I will be joined for a conversation with directors Phil Lord and Chris Miller, who are back with their first directorial effort in more than 10 years. We talked about how they made this movie by hand. The practical effects, the physical effects, the science, the puppeteering.

It is a truly amazing act of craftsmanship in a time of a lot of digital glop than Amanda and I complain about a lot on the show. So stick around for that conversation. But first, we have some movie news to get into right after this. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by State Farm. Sure, being an expert at movie trivia is impressive. You know, it's even more impressive.

Being smart about saving money. And a great way to do that is by saving when you choose to bundle home and auto with the State Farm Personal Price Plan. Bundling, just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that very much. by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Okay, Dobbins. I was winging about the Oscar ratings. Why didn't I get at Dobbins? Well, because this is serious matter. This is really important.

That's really, we put on our, we put on our big kid hat. I should say Ms. Dobbins. That's how we're going to open this, because Mr. Fennessey's here. We're going to talk about the Oscar ratings. They came in. They came in very late, suspiciously late. And I believe the reason they came in so late is because they're not good. Yeah. They are down 9% year over year, 17.86 million. I was very wrong. I thought they would be up this year. And they were not. And of course, I know that linear television ratings are going down across the board for everything other than football. But I was surprised. And why do you think that happened? I was also, I was wrong, I should say, not as wrong as you, who both thought that they were going to. going to go up and also like invested your you know, weeks happiness in it. I thought they were going to hold and they're significantly down.

This is the lowest broadcast since 2022. So whatever like post-COVID uptick is back down. We're still in the in like a five million person range here, which is just to say the, you know, the 90s and the 2000s heyday is gone. That's over. We're talking about a different, like just a completely different segment of the audience. I think this award season was way too long.

I think it was way, way, way, way, way, way, way, too long. And I do think that in the same way, we have sort of trained audiences to expect blockbusters in the summer and fancy prestige movies around Thanksgiving and Christmas and now a surprisingly good movie in, you know, March or April that you aren't. We have trained people to expect awards shows around the awards show season, which is January and February. and it was March 15th. So I do honestly think some of it is just habit. People have moved on to their spring and summer pursuits

and have been hearing about this for a long time and there's a real wait. The Oscars haven't happened yet. Especially when Sinners, which was one of the two main competitors, had been out for almost a year. Yeah. Just... There were some other components too.

I think one, obviously, the show is not like on an upward trajectory long term. I'm very well aware of that. I think the world baseball semi-final, which featured the United States against the Dominican, was not something that the show anticipated could happen. But this is the risk you run when you start getting really close to baseball season. You start getting in the way of potential sporting events cutting into your audience. And that WBC game, I think, did 7.86 million, which for a baseball game is huge, let alone basically an exhibition tournament before the season even starts.

So that's a factor. Sure. though counterpoint, I who enjoy baseball literally found out that the World Baseball Classic was happening on this podcast when you told me. So I don't know if the audience is overlapping to the same. Sure, people turning on their... 10% is a lot.

Like, 10% is the amount that it was down from last year. But sure, like, the people who were, you know, throwing a dart at the TV lineup before they turn it on for the night, sure. Everybody else, they either to know. for one or the other. Yeah, hardcore movie fans, obviously, weren't missing the Oscars.

I shouldn't say that. Hardcore award show fans aren't missing the Oscars. Some movie fans don't care about the Oscars. I think this is really interesting because, obviously, there's two more telecasts coming on ABC, and they're losing the show. I don't really know how much they're going to care about the ratings in those final two years.

You know, it's not really their problem, so to speak, going forward. YouTube and the way that YouTube pursues audience and what the Academy will do to be more like a YouTube show is of some interest to me. And I think we'll become maybe like a little pet topic of discussion on this show over the next couple of years. And or possibly a pain point. Yeah.

I mean, truthfully, you know, driving engagement on YouTube is done very differently. It is like a lot of gamifying, a lot of direct address, a lot of like tricks and tools that are used to keep people locked into their screens as opposed to kind of oddly watching television. And it's just a very different ballgame. And I'm just fascinated to see how the academy kind of adapts or doesn't adapt to that future. Yeah. In some ways, this show is like pre-itomized in a way that is actually very helpful for YouTube once the show has happened. Right.

And then they have 24 bite-sized exception speeches that we already all like look up. And I think that many people consume the next day on YouTube or TikTok or Instagram rather than watching the broadcast itself. So it's kind of finding its home, but you have to assume that they want live views of the entire broadcast, which is not how most people consume YouTube. Yeah, it's going to be interesting because the Academy historically is a very prestigious group that sees itself as shepherding the past and future of movie culture, at least in America, and increasingly abroad. And, you know, I say this as somebody who loves YouTube. YouTube is kind of a slop pen. It's just kind of like, there's a lot of stuff out there. Some of it's good.

Some of it's not so good. It's a while, while west. And, you know, I have joked for years that they should do the countdown from 10 to 1 in terms of revealing who the winner of the show is. That sort of thing feels way more in play in a YouTube future. ABC, I think, is just sort of like happy to have a big Sunday night event in the spring for the next couple of years. And then, you know,

Yeah. We're more or less dispensing with linear television like across the board. I mean, every kind of show is down in that environment right now. So that's just us getting older. That's what that is. Welcome. Other news. There's a new trailer.

Yeah. For a film called Spider-Man Brand New Day. Coming out on July 31st, I learned. It's my birthday movie. Yeah. What did you think? Watched it while I was getting a manicure at the Dail salon. Intended, like maybe not the intended environment, but also.

running it on the television there? Yes. They were running the trailer? It was as an ad in between music videos. So this is how I keep up on music videos from 2008 to 2015. I see. And also see trailers. And I wouldn't say that, you know, the settings on the TV at my beloved L-Nale spa was like

primo for this. So it looked quite dark. Okay. Some motion smoothing going on? Yeah. But that's, you know, that's okay. I got the gist, which is the, that Peter Parker is still a teenager and yearning to be, you feel a larger connection to the world and also dealing with bad guys.

And Zendaya doesn't remember who he is, but is still in the movie. Most of the people don't remember who he is. Yes. There's a bit of a mind wipe for Peter Parker as Spider-Man. Yeah, related. Zendaya and Tom Holland. Married or not married. Go.

I don't care. I sure. Yes. Have you paid any attention? into this? Has this made it to your internet? I'm aware of it being a thing. I saw that there was an AI image of them at their wedding. It was spread around. That tricked a lot of people. I did. I did see that.

I mean, I genuinely don't care. Okay. Like, I hope they're happy. Me too. Whether or not they, like, are legally bound to one another forevermore, not really in my interest set. I mean, from purely financial perspective, I think it would be unwise at this point. I don't know why they need to legally. I think they both accumulated some assets given their success. Why do you need to tie them together?

You know what I mean? Maybe it's an immigration thing. Maybe it's going to make it easier to go back and forth from the UK and the U.S. But when you're that rich... I feel like, just let them do what they want to do. You want to put their assets together? That's true. But like, I don't know.

It's... Do you have regrets? No, I don't. Because I'm in the tax bracket where it made sense to put assets together. I see. I thought, even though I didn't understand that totally at the time. Make sense is one word or where I am for. to in order to, you know, scrape by in the American economy.

But no, it's good. I'm glad I got married. If they want to get married, that's great. If they don't, you know, I hope they're not. Whatever they want. Let's circle back to the film. Spider-Man. They're playing teenagers in the film.

Yeah. How much longer are they going to get to be teenagers? I think maybe they're exiting that time. Okay. I think maybe we're going into young adulthood with these characters. What's the oldest that we've ever seen Spider-Man? Well, we saw Peter B. Parker in the Spider-Verse films who was like a 30-something dad. But he's not the protagonist.

He was the second lead, Jake Johnson's character. He was very good. But you know what I mean. You want old Peter? No, the essence of Spider-Man is a teenager. I agree with you. So it's a little bit of like a 90210, saved by the bell, goes to college situation here. It's a fair point.

Tom Holland's getting older. I don't know what you want me to say. I mean, they can't de-age this guy. How old is Tom Holland? Let's look that up. He's 29 years old. He's going to be 30 on June 1st. Okay.

So he will be... We'll have a 30-year-old Spider-Man when this movie comes out. I think there have been great runs in Spider-Man history when Peter is a young adult. Okay. And so it's not out of the realm of possibility. This trailer, I'm not so sure. Did not look good.

So, one, they're making a shift away from John Watts, the filmmaker and Destin Daniel Cretton is coming into direct. No Way Home was the very silly movie, a little bit incoherent, but so fun. Such a fun time at the movie theater. And because of the kind of universe collapsing and bringing in the three Spider-Men and all the villains from those different Spider-Man movies and getting to see Toby McGuire and Andrew Garfield and Holland altogether, You know, we were very enthusiastic about that movie when it came out. And it felt like also it was, along with a couple of other movies that kind of like, let's break through COVID here and like get back to a movie going. And it was a huge event.

It was almost a $2 billion movie. And this trailer just seems a little small compared to that movie. There are a number of villains. Would you like to hear about the villains? Please. Well, you know who John Bernthal plays, right? No. I mean, I saw him.

And then Tom Holland put his web on the gun to stop the gun. So I saw that. So John Bernthal plays a man named Frank Castle, who is also known as the Punisher, a very famous Marvel Comics character, a kind of vigilantey, a gun-toting hero, seeking vengeance after his family is murdered.

There was a Marvel TV series starring Bernthal playing this character some years ago on Netflix. He was brought back, I think, for Daredevil, the most recent Daredevil TV show. Spider-Man and The Punisher, they have a thing over the years. They have an interesting dynamic.

This movie seems to be getting into that. He's kind of an anti-hero, not really a villain. Then there was Michael Mando, who was in Better Call Saul. And he's playing Scorpion. Do you know about Scorpion? If you're following along at home, like this right now in real time, is the exact moment that I realized that because the Oscars are over, now it's just you telling me about comic books again for at least 20 minutes a podcast. You're just talking. There's only two.

And then you guys are going to do a clip out and you're going to try. try to include me with the face of just being like, oh, yes, Sean, tell me more about the comic book. And I'm just like, uh-huh. I'm just talking about the movie. I'm telling you about the movie. Then here we go. All right. This is something I know about.

Okay. That's awesome. Scorpion? It's cool to know about things. He's a villain. He's a Spider-Man villain. Okay. He's one of the last big Spider-Man villains who has not been the focus of one of these movies.

All right. He's not a great villain. I didn't really like his character design in the trailer. Okay. Way too Mecca. Scorpion in the comic books, he's like, he's got like a green latex suit on with a huge Stinger. He like swings his tail stinger around and stings you. Yeah. And this, it's like, he's like some sort of robot man. I wasn't into it. Um, Mark Ruffalo is in the trailer,

returning as Bruce Banner, aka the Hulk. The Hulk. Uh, we don't see him in Hulk form. Mm-hmm. Jacob Bottled on his back as Ned. Love Ned. I like Ned. But Ned also doesn't remember who Peter Parker is. That's right. As Spider-Man or as Peter. Is that true? Well, I don't know. Was Peter erased from his? I don't remember. Anyone in the booth? I'm not entirely sure. I might need to circle back to No Way Home. Also saw Tremel Tillman in this trailer.

Nice to see him getting some work. We didn't see Sadie Sink. Now, you know Sadie Sink is in this movie? Do you know who that is? She's one of the stranger things? Yes. Do you know who she's going to be in this world? She's one of the stranger things. Well, which one does Zendaya play?

She plays M.J. So is Sadie Sink Gwen? I don't think so. Okay. Then I'm out of ideas. I think she's going to be playing Gene Gray, the ex-woman. Oh, okay. So it begins for you.

And that's, yes. But they're hiding the ball on Sadie Sink. So we didn't get that. I just thought this production just didn't look that great. It just didn't not look that inventive or different or really like meaningfully special. And when so, I just rewatched solo with my daughter because we're going through all the Star Wars movies. She liked it a lot. I didn't get it at all.

She was really into Kira, who was Amelia Clark's character. Remember Amelia Clark from Game of Thrones? I do. She was in solo. Yeah, I remember that. That was her big run, her mid-Game of Thrones run. It didn't work out. Remember when you left last Christmas in the middle?

Terrible movie. So do you know what happens at the end of last Christmas? No idea. Don't tell me. Don't spoil it. I'll get back to it one day. It's a fairly big twist. I'm good.

I don't want to know. Don't spoil it. Okay. I may re-watch it someday with my family. Why am I talking? about this right now. You watch Solo. Oh, yeah.

And Solo, I remember watching Solo and being like, this is the first not special Star Wars movie. Like every Star Wars movie, good or bad, it felt like it was a big deal. It felt special. And Solo was not special. This doesn't look that special. All right.

I could be wrong. I hope it's good. It's also my birthday movie, obviously. You're not claiming Odyssey as your birthday? That's the 17th. Oh, they moved it up. I thought it was the 20-something. No.

I think there is a movie on the 24th. Let's look at what that movie is. It's Evil Dead Burn, which I do claim. Okay. And I am looking forward to. But the Odyssey is the 17th. Okay. Okay. That's brand new day. More blockbuster news. Kirsten Dunst has joined the cast of Minecraft too.

She sure has. So I provided the context for you and Jack because you received this as a defeat, a sign of like another one of our greats giving in. And I say to you know. this is dreams coming true, which is literally what Kirsten Nuns posted.

She screenshot a deadline on Instagram and she said, my dream came true because she publicly campaigned for this. And she said, my kids like this movie and I would like to make, I believe the exact quote was a pile of cash. Maybe I could be in a movie that doesn't lose money for once. And lo and behold, she's in Minecraft too. So will you watch Minecraft 1? No. As I said to you, Kiki can just catch me up on the lore, you know. Like individually? Sure.

Or she can like make a YouTube video. This is actually great marketing if they just want to do just like, like Kirsten Dunst Recaps Minecraft 1 just for people who care about her. For all the millennial moms who are obsessed with her? Yeah. Okay. Why not? Sounds good.

And that helps us relate to our children. So if I have anything to do with it, my children will never know about Minecraft. Good luck on that one. I think this is interesting. Okay. No double standard here for you in terms of, stars wasting their time with certain franchises. Am I really the one that yells at people for going to make money?

Who can really keep track with what you're yelling at people about these days? I don't really think that's ever been my thing. It is something that Chris Ryan historically does not like. He does not like the like, well, Chris Evans is inside the MCU for 13 years during the prime of his career. So we'll never know whether he's good or not. Right. James Cameron is making Avatar movies for 45 years. Yes, that's also consistent with that point of view. Yeah.

I guess every once in a while you're like, was the check really this worthwhile? Say Rebecca Ferguson in mercy being an AI person, you know? That wasn't good. That wasn't good. You know? And we did spend some time wondering about like what that funded in her life, you know? But in general, I don't know, people got to make money. Would you ever be friends with an AI?

No, I wouldn't. Well, this is, okay. Would you ever make love with an AI? So has the whole comedian dating an AI chatbot thing made its way to you? The rumor that Zach Brath then denied. Zach Brath denied it, right? But so there's someone allegedly who is dating an AI, a noted comedian who's dating an AI and quote, bringing her places.

And this is what I really want to understand is the bringing her places. Like what does that mean? There's a whole film about this called her. That's true. But he just talks to Scarlet. Johansson at home. No, when he's out, he talks to her too. Well, sure.

But he's got like the ear pauses. But Amy Adams and Scarlett Johansson don't really interact. No, they don't. So once they're bringing her places, I mean, the way it's presented implies that the person in question is like introducing her. Mm-hmm. And then so I want to know how this person thinks they're integrating the AI chatbot into the social circle. In the shrouds, Vincent Kassell definitely interacts. meaningfully with an AI chatbot

who is actually secretly Guy Pearce's character and he's manipulating him as I recall. I don't remember if he introduces her to anybody. Maybe he does? Maybe he does introduce her? Yeah, but so it's like so you have a friend, an AI friend

and you bring them here. I don't have an AI friend. So it's like do we get like a little selfie stand and you just put the phone here? Third chair. And then there we go. Third chair. What would you're doing? AI friends name be? Money.

That's because that's the only reason I would do it. Well, take note. Sam Altman. Amanda is listening. Okay, Kirsten Dunst is doing that. There was a report in Deadline this week about Netflix and what Netflix is doing with their movies. I guess Dan Lynn and Bella Bajaria presented some of their wares and some of the new things that are coming out later this year.

There was a lot of discussion about the rumor that Netflix encourages or forces their filmmakers to restate the plot during the films because of the expectation that a lot of people are folding their laundry and not looking at the screen while watching. We didn't mention the Casablanca Conan bit that he did at the Oscars with Sterling K. Brown. That was very, very funny. Yes. Similarly intentioned idea about over-enunciating what your character is doing in a movie. But a couple of things came out of this, and there was a lot of pushing around the idea of theatrical with Netflix because they said that were they to acquire Warner Brothers, they would have

have kept that theatrical business in place, and they did a lot of research around that part of the business, which is something they've never really pursued. And I would say Dan Lynn was circumspect, but dropping clues about what the future could hold. Dan Lynn, for many years, was a theatrical film producer. He, in fact, produced the Lego movie, which is made by Lord and Miller,

and had a lot of success doing that over the years. And in the original deadline report, there was a note that said, The Adventures of Cliff Booth was coming out in August. That has since been scrubbed, so we don't know. Even though I have felt like it feels like a summer movie, and once upon a time in Hollywood was also a summer movie. And then there was also some insinuation about what the theatrical plan would be for Narnia,

the magician's nephew, the forthcoming Greta Gerwig adaptation of that novel. And it kind of feels like Netflix is like six months away from announcing that they do theatrical. Maybe that's just wishcasting, but this was kind of a weird story. And you don't drop those little morsels and hints the way that Lynn does if you're not thinking about making some changes. Did you follow this at all? I read some of it and I did see the Cliff Booth stuff and that it was deleted. You know, I interpreted it as the fruits of a lot of prep over the last six to nine to 12 months to try to buy a three out of three hundred. release studio and Warner Brothers.

And, you know, they said that they had different intentions, were they to buy Warner Brothers because that's a business that works for Warner Brothers and it's different from their business. But you do kind of wonder as they're looking at what owning a theatrical distribution and studio would mean that it maybe gave them a couple ideas as well. Yeah. Of how to make money. You know, and it is also just all hypothetical, like, corporate presentation speak. So some of it is floating it, testing to see what the reaction will be because they are a publicly traded company.

So so much of it is like, what do the shareholders think about this? You know, some of it is also just you say things to fill up like a deck. And then what actually does or does not happen six months from now can be totally, totally different. That's how corporations work. Yeah, you know, I'm about to bring. up the forthcoming Martin Scorsese movie to you. And obviously when Apple was putting out Killers of the Flower Moon or when they were putting out Napoleon or when they put out F1 last summer, they worked in conjunction with the Legacy Studio to do the distribution for those movies.

And it does seem like there's a real like meets like partnership in play with Sony and Netflix because they already license a lot of content in that output deal from Sony. They have this standing relationship with Sony Pictures Animation, which just got us K-pop Demon Hunters. and Quentin Tarantino's last movie in the Cliff Booth universe was distributed by Sony. And so if we heard in a month or three months, and I'd have no information, I'm not reporting it, but if we heard that Sony was going to put the adventures

of Cliff Booth in movie theaters in conjunction with Netflix for two weeks, four weeks, I wouldn't be shocked. I think they should. I think they should. I mean, we've been saying it makes no sense to not put Frankenstein or Knives out movies and movie theaters. Like, that's just bizarre to me that they don't really do that at scale. Right.

So then that puts the August release date into a little bit of question, which is perhaps why it was scrubbed. But if it's going to be on Netflix in August and they do want to do a theatrical release before, then that's June or July. And that's going to that schedule is very full at this point. Yeah. Then you're running up against the Odyssey, which is not really where you want to be. I mean. And Disclosure Day. Yeah.

And Spider-Man. Yeah. And Toy Story 5. And Minions. Yeah. It's a very crowded June July this year with big, big, big, big. movies. I think it's a question of like, what does Netflix want out of that side of the business? Do they really want to make money now? Or is it continuing to placate the feelings of the high-level

filmmakers? That was the other thing. It felt like there was a little bit of sensitivity to will people still be willing to work with you guys if you're not going to start to do this because we saw Emerald Fennell, for example, with Wuthering Heights passed up Netflix to make her film with Warner Brothers. And that turned out pretty good for her. Obviously, Ryan Coogler made sinners at Warner Brothers because he was able to get that, not just control of the print after 25 years, but a strong theatrical commitment. This has been discussed and debated

for seven or eight years at this point, and we've talked about it a lot on the show. I do think Greta Gerwig making her first streamer movie and Tarantino being the writer and producer of a big movie like this, and he really prizes theatrical. Right. Feels like an interesting rubber meeting the road moment for the studio. We will continue to cover it.

I mentioned, speaking of streamers, Martin Scorsese's new film, What Happens at Night? We saw a first look at the movie today, a still photograph of Linaudor DiCaprio and Jennifer Lawrence, the stars walking down a driveway in a snowy background. And that's probably the image of the movie we'll be looking at for the next 18 months. Yes, because it's currently filming in Prague.

Do we normally get first looks for Martin Scorsese movies? It's 18 months. Famously, we did for Killers of the Flower Moon. There was that image of Leo and Lily Gladstone at the table. Right. And that was the only thing that we saw from the movie for almost two years. And then the movie came out. Okay.

I don't know when this movie's supposed to come out. I presume in 2027. I'm very excited for it, obviously. Mustache and Full Effect for Leo. Big fan. He looks good. I haven't read who is helping distribute this one. What studio?

I think Paramount did Killers of the Flower Moon. and Warner Zed F1. So who's helping out here? We shall see. Is it you? Yeah. I have exciting new business to announce me and my AI producing partner. We're making lots of money.

That's a joke. Her name is money. I'm looking forward to this movie. We're probably going to be talking about it for the next two years, though. So I don't want to get to over my skis. I'm incredibly psyched. You were talking about the 100th Oscars and what would be in competition. and if it releases in

27, it would be in the mix. That's exciting. It is exciting. We're trying to get Marty that second Oscar. Great. Yeah. Well, are we going to make it? To the Oscars, to 2028.

Should we go to the 100th Oscars? Well, but then we got to work, right? I know. Jack was trying to encourage us to go to the Oscars when we were down in Austin. And I was like, I don't know. Listen, we have to figure out mobile recording, you know? That's the thing. No, that's not it. I'm booking the Uber, timing it exactly correctly. Best picture goes to what happens at night. We are in the car. We get here where the first people out of the building, we fire up the microphones. That is very sweet. And I like, I like that you, like Marty Supreme are dreaming big. I also like the energy you're bringing to this. Thank you.

But listen, an Uber won't be able to get within like half a mile. That's true. I'm getting a helicopter. particular night. They do have the helicopter pad on the lows, as we saw in Crime 101. That's right. Filmed on location in Los Angeles. Lime scooters? Yeah. Should we take Lime scooters?

I also forgot to mention we lost the I-Hard Award, unfortunately. Oh, who won? Watch what crappens. Hmm. That seems about right. I'll go to the Oscars. I was thinking about when I shared that comment with you that I've never won anything, and that's not true.

When I was in third grade, I won a... I won a national contest. That contest was about health and the food pyramid. And I created a meal. Okay. That was like the ideal meal to get all the food groups in. And I drew images of what it was. And it was just a meal that my mom made.

I can't totally remember what the meal was at this point. But it was like entered into the contest. I won at my school. Then I won in New York State. And then I won nationally. And it was just like a meal that my mom made in my house. So were you awarded based on the like the, the meal planning on the drawing itself on...

Kind of the totality of my essence, I think, is really what it was. I think they identified me as a comer in the industry. Did you submit the... Did you submit yourself? Or was it your teachers who decided that you had the best work and we would be submitted? You know, I was in third grade. Okay, well? So I'm not totally sure.

But as you might imagine, I was a confident young man. You know, I had some strong feelings about where I was going in the world. And at that time, it was 1989, I want to say, third grade. Maybe 1990, and we were right in the middle of George H.W. Bush's America. Okay.

Right? And there was Operation Desert Storm. Yeah. A lot of tumults in the world. Storm and Norman. Storm and Norman Schwarzkopf, of course. I didn't interact with any of these people, but the National body was Bush's governmental body that recognized my work. Yeah. So that's the one time I've ever won anything. Okay. And we didn't win the IHeard Award. Yeah. That's too bad. That happens. Maybe next year. What were the kind of qualifications? What was being, what were they looking at to determine who had the So I guess a good question is who submitted us for the I Heart Award? Because we did not. I assume that it

costs money to be submitted. Presumably. Yeah. But that's not one of those where we didn't fill out an application. Is Watchwood Crappens an Iheart show? It is not. It's like a Bravo reality recap show. No, I know that, but who distributes it? I don't think it is, but maybe I'm mistaken. Cool. I'm not accusing anyone of Dirty Pool.

I'm just asking questions. The rewatchables was also nominated for what it's worth, yeah. Yeah. But it was submitted before CR Month. If they had known Sierra Month was coming, would have been a whole different kettle of fish. It's hosted by Ronnie Karam and Ben Mendelker. Congratulations to them.

I'm learning about them in real time. I do know about Bravo. You watch any Bravo shows? Nope. I've watched many an episode of the Real Housewives franchise over the years, but Eileen has kicked that franchise

in the last five years, so we never have it on anymore. I've seen the meme where they scream, Take a Xanax! Which I want to scream at you fairly often. But... Doing really well. I feel very calm.

That's good. Feel very measured right now. Okay. Well... Okay, so Spider-Man. Yeah. youth is dead. Yeah.

But Marty's coming back with a movie. That's right. My youth is alive. Kiki's getting paid. Kiki's getting paid. And reminding us all that sometimes you just got to go chase that bag, you know? We lost an award. But we've gained what?

An AI friend named Money. Okay, let's talk now about Project Hail Mary. This is, safe to say, the most anticipated movie of the year so far. Would you agree? I would. It's a new film from Amazon, MGM. It's, as I said, directed by Lord and Miller.

It is the screenplay is written by Drew Goddard based on the 2021 novel by Andy Weir, which is the same formulation we had from 2015's The Martian. Yes. A beloved movie on this show

and a hugely successful movie, award-winning movie, Goddard adapted Weir's novel back then. And this movie does have a lot in common with that movie. This new movie stars Ryan Gosling, who also produced this film. Sandra Hewler, Lionel Boyce,

Ken Lung, Bala Vayntraub. The cinematography is by the Great Greg Fraser, who you may have seen shooting the Dune movies recently. Charles Wood does the production design. Neil Scanlon, we will talk about him quite a bit because he did the creature effects on the film, and the scores by Daniel Pemberton. Plot synopsis is as follows.

Rylan Grace, the sole survivor on a desperate last chance mission to save humanity from an extinction-level solar event caused by space algae known as astrophage, wakes up with amnesia on a spaceship, and remembers his mission with the help of an unexpected alliance with an alien named Rocky. What did you think of Project Hail Mary? I really liked it. I think that the first half hour and a half is truly magical. And then it keeps going.

But that is true of many great movies. And what it accomplishes, I think, both scale and production-wise. And as you said in the intro, feeling made by humans, even if it is not always portraying humans, as opposed to being inside a computer, is palpable and exciting. And there is one element that they just have to get exactly right, which is Rocky, the alien. And, you know, I guess that's a little bit of a spoiler, but it's not because so I'm at an alien is in the trailer. And if they don't get that creature and that, not just the actual recreation of the alien, but the characterization, the mood, if they can't use it in the story, then the story sucks. and they absolutely nailed it, I thought. It really worked on me and I was charmed and emotionally invested in this alien in a way that I haven't really been invested in an alien since E.T.

So, I mean, you don't spend that much time with aliens, you know, but they're clearly, they really owe a debt to many films, including E.T. And I think they get that. And so the rest of the movies' flaws or missteps kind of. float away for me. Yeah. I think it's good to go into the movie expecting a little bit of pastiche that the movie very purposefully wants to remind you of the best versions of these movies. In fact, there's a moment when Ryland, Gosselin's character is attempting to communicate with Rocky and he literally sounds out the close encounters theme to him while banging on the glass that divides the two of them. And the movie has a self-consciousness about that. In the way that I think

a lot of Lord and Miller films have a very kind of, we're pulling together a lot of the vibes of things that we love, you know, they are similarly like recombinant filmmakers. You know, 21 Jump Street is a movie that is like trying to have it to kick it eat it too and often does so successfully. The Lego movie is another example of this. Their work is very much influenced

and addled by pop culture. This movie, though, for them, is a really interesting shift tonally because it does have some of their trademark silliness and Gosling is doing a lot of, at times like, Chaplin-esque solo silent comedy. So is Rocky.

Rocky is as well. But there is also like a real sentimentality in this story and a real sincerity in this story about a lost person, a person with really no connections. And then what happens when you're millions and millions of miles away from home and you make a friend? And that stuff also really worked for me. I think the movie is beautiful in a way that very few mainstream Hollywood productions are. I think that craft that you're talking about, the way that the ships are designed, the way that they move through space,

the way that the characters interact with each other physically, is just unusually specific and considered and artful. And it's also pretty funny. Like all the way through, it's pretty funny. You know, like there's a lot of laugh lines. Gosling is, I was just listening to Bill and Craig and Chris talking on the rewatchables about how Gosling is in that like a tier of SNL host.

He's kind of using that same muscle in this performance where he's, you know, doing some mugging and doing a lot of, like, talking into camera. Yes. But he's very adept at it. And he sells it in the same way that Rocky has sold really well, too. But it's also different than, like, the full character actor Ken or even nice guys or one of the other, the other comedic performances that he does where he's being gossling being a dope. Right, right. This is a leading man part. Yes, exactly.

And he's just using his innate charm and timing. Yeah. This is in that Matt Damon, Paul Newman realm of like cameras on you. Yeah. And you've got to carry it. Your face has to carry this movie all the way through. And if you're not bought in on that as well as Rocky, then the movie won't work. I've seen it.

We've both seen it twice now. Both times the same thing was true for me. And I think it was true for you, which is it is a very epic tale. With a lot of like we're going here and then we're going here, we're going here through space. It also has a very, an interesting shape, like an interesting structure. Because in the novel, as I understand it, and this is explained to me by our pals Mal and Joanna, the flashbacks as they are in the film are really more like Ryland remembering moments in real time as he's going through the journey on the spaceship and remembering how he got to this point.

The movie doesn't quite communicate it in that way. It doesn't quite feel like he's remembering something that has happened. It more just feels like a traditional flashback structure. But that structure, in addition to the extended nature of the mission, makes this movie feel long. Yeah. It is too long. And I'm usually a little reluctant to say that about movies because I like long movies. But there's something a little redundant in Act 3.

Yes. That is like my one kind of strike against it. They have to, it's not that they have to save, solve the same problem several times, but you can feel the moment where they're like, we need one more big set piece. You know, we need one more emotional resolution moment here. We need to do one more alien thing here. You can all, you can feel them checking off the demands or what they think they're, various like plot building blocks are and you're like no no no you don't actually like we've gotten

there we we understand all of this emotionally we also are a little bit tired of the actual adventure stakes so you know I think some of that they're just like trying to do a lot because they have three different things going on they've got the flashback structure they've got the actual save the earth structure and then they've got grace the gosling characters you know emotional relationship and like buddy structure. Then there's also a thing where the movie ends about five different times. Like just literally, and I can, I have two different propositions of what shot the movie should have just ended on, just like stop.

And without even having to reshoot anything. And that would sort of help because it's not just that it is overstuffed, but it really doesn't know when to end. And so the last 15 minutes are really, really, really baggy. and kind of over the top. And I think a little, you walk away with an impression of greater sentimentality than is maybe in the rest of the movie.

Yeah, I think that's right. That it gets kind of a little lopsided at the end. I will say I rewatched The Martian. I went on House of Art to talk about The Martian with them. And that movie is two hours and 25 minutes. Same thing. Exactly. Same thing.

And like, you know, bless Ridley Scott who directed it. But it is also, by the, the time they're going on that last, that last mission, which is another spacewalk in order to do like a very vital thing or else everyone dies, it's both stressful and you're just watching people spinning around and you're like, let's wrap this up. Like, let's go. Let's go. So some of it may also be the nature of the source material. Yeah. Andy Weir likes an epic tale. Exactly. And likes a lot of science. And some of it is just, I guess, how movies are now. Yeah, I really like the science component of this movie. I did too. I thought it was

simultaneously very specific, but not intellectually overwhelming. I thought it was pretty legible. I was by no means a good science student, and I don't host Science Corner on this show. But like there are jokes about Xenon, you know, like it is that kind of a movie. It is detailed. I think I'm really impressed with both. I've never read an Andy Weir book. Mal and Joanna have read both, and we're telling me a lot about them, and that's an interesting conversation to listen to if you're curious. But I think

I have now seen two novel adaptations, both adapted by Drew Goddard's. So I think the combo of Andy Ware and Drew Goddard handle the science very smartly. I agree. It is always middle school science, even if they have to, you know, say a lot of words at first, it is whether it's growing a plant or recreating water or elements or, you know, everything is like this, it's a cell is one of the big reveals. And it's like, you know, I can't tell you what mitosis is, but I know what a cell is. So it's something that is at least recognizable. And then the actual problems themselves are so basic, right? You either have to get off Mars, you've got to get home or you got to save the planet.

Even the basic setup of this, which, you know, I'm sorry, the sun is dying. So it's getting colder. You know, that's not. It's fairly simple. There are a lot of, they complicated it a bit, and I think they do that in smart and interesting ways. But even like the science experiment that Gosling's character, Grace, runs in order, his big breakthrough is like built out of plywood and is very much like a diorama that you go to home deep.

Yeah, like your parents had to help you make when, by the way, I'm just absolutely dreading that when that day comes when we have to do the diaramas. No. It's, I just. You're an artist and a content creator. You're great. I don't know if I'm great with my hands. I'm certainly no Rocky.

So, and even that was just, they use puppet shows to explain things to each other, right? So there's so much both in the, like the science that they choose that I think is very clever and accessible. And then the way that they have to communicate it. Yeah. That lends itself, it's just, it's understandable. And the other thing is that you, the flashback structure. is very helpful in that you don't really ever have to wonder what time it is. It doesn't, it elides it because you know there's like past and present.

So you don't have to worry about light ears or where are they or what's happening or blah, blah, blah. It's, I thought it was very, very well done. I thought so too. On the one hand, I actually enjoyed the movie more the second time because I knew what I was getting in that respect. So I didn't feel like I was having to keep up with the plot in any meaningful way. On the other hand, I did start to have a few more questions about how much people had aged, how, for example, the coma process works when they send the astronauts into space. Well, obviously, they lose two astronauts in the flight.

We are spoiling this movie at this point, if you're still listening. But, like, does Gosling's character not age over that period of time in which he takes that journey? Sure. I don't really know how all that works. Yeah, absolutely. They just skipped up. There's a yada yada. of those things.

Yeah, the most yada yatted thing is there's a beautiful sequence where Grace and Rocky, you know, are starting to try to communicate and they do puppets. And then they say, like, this is the word for Rocky and this is the word for Grace. And he's using a machine and he's using money, our favorite AI bot to start a language machine. And then two seconds later, they're communicating as if they've been living together for years. And I was like, I think that would have taken a little longer. I think it did and they just cut that out. Totally.

Totally. I think the movie kind of acknowledges that they're like, we got to move this up a little bit. That's a thousand percent the right decision. And I was absolutely willing to go with the first time and the second time, I didn't really care. You know, there are other things that they've solved. But sure, they cut corners. Yeah, I think it's helpful. It's kind of what makes the last kind of 25 minutes more frustrating.

Because I think the movie mostly does a really nice job of not getting weighed down within, well, then what would happen? Well, then what would happen? They don't have to kind of over-explain all of those things. I do want to go back to both, like, that weight of influence and also how it manifests in the movie. I mean, you can hear Phil and Chris talk about it. The very specific steps that they made to accomplish this, but I am obsessed with these movies and have been obsessed with them since, you know, I just talked to Steven Spielberg. I mean, his movies in this world definitely changed my relationship

to science fiction, made me fall in love with these kinds of stories. This is a really, really high level version of it in terms of how it looks and feels. And there is, of course, a lot of CGI in the movie, but it almost always feels like you're in a thing that was built by a person. Yes. And

that quality, whether we're on Grace's ship, whether we're on Rocky's ship, whether we're at the base with Sandra Hewler, or in a bar on a boat, it always feels like a real place and a real thing. All of the things that Rocky sculptures that he makes out of his

kind of solid xenon clearly, an artisan made those for the movie. And like this is how it should be. I genuinely feel like this is if you, I know it's expensive and I know it's hard, but

for me at least it really helps a movie like this. I feel like it's earning its believability. It's earning its setting and story structure. When it feels like Ryan Gosling is in a room with an alien. Yeah, which to some extent, he also was, which to not, I mean, he was not, listen, Wolverines and wolves are different things.

What a week for you. And the aliens are, Rocky, the alien is not real that I am in at Abbins Noah, but again, I'm not Steven Spielberg. But they chose a puppet, you know? They didn't choose like a green screen or a person with all of the motion capture stuff. It's such a good choice. It's an essential choice. And if it's anything else, then he's acting with some form of computer.

And you don't get the physicality, which is such an essential part of like both of their comedies. Yes. And then the comedy is what creates the chemistry that kind of is the foundation of the relationship, which is wonderful and like very moving. And I like tiered up every single time. Like it got me at a thousand percent worked. And then the rest of the production is. design and the physical nature of the world takes its cues from that decision. Because if, like, Rocky is real, a puppet, and then it's all just like in the void,

then what's, you know, what's the point? There are a couple of moments when the two characters hug, and they can only hug through this kind of apparatus. But when they hug, Rocky's in the, he's in the glass cube, you know? What are we doing? How do you know when it's over? But, like, you feel like you're watching these characters hug, which sounds like a silly thing. But, you know, Neil Scanlan, who, you know, designed all these creature effects and what is the puppeteer's name who worked through it?

Is it Ortiz? Yes. James Ortiz. James Ortiz. It's just a, it's a miraculous and odd little thing that they've made. You know, and it's kind of a rock alien, hence the rocky name. Doesn't really have a face. No.

His posable thumbs only go down, which becomes a running gag in the movie. But, yeah, they use the design or maybe that's in the book. And the design, like, you know, meets exactly the inspiration. But it really is very funny. He uses a little rollerball to run around the ship and, like, keep his environment. And that's just extremely funny. The other thing that's really fascinating about the movie is that Rylan Grace is not much of a character. Yeah.

We don't really know much about him. The movie purposefully, I think, withholds a lot of information about what has. come before. You get a little bit when he is first approached by Sandra Hewler's character to come experiment so that they can get a little bit more clarity on what's happening with this astrophage and why it is dimming the sun.

And he kind of, you know, at one point he tells Rocky that he had a mate and then he lost her because his head was in the clouds and we know that now he's with Mark. Yeah. I hate Mark. That was really funny. I like that part a lot. There's a lot of really good laugh lines in the movie, but you know, we learn

bit of like he's a middle school science teacher, even though he has a PhD and has some pretty dramatic ideas. Right. And even that is used expositionally, like both obviously, but like effectively where we learn about ascervage and why the earth is in danger because he is explaining it to his, like, group of middle school students who won't stop asking about it. And even there, he also, he has like a real diorama in the classroom that he uses, like a physical explanation as opposed to screens.

No iPads in those classrooms, you know? Yeah, that's how you know that it's a fantasy. But anyway. Yeah, I like those choices, and I think it is it's kind of like more McQueen-Carrie Gary Grant style stardom from Gosling where he's like, you don't need to know too much about this guy. His name is Roger Thornhill. He's been thrown into

this world of North by Northwest, go. And Gosling, we bring a lot to a movie with him, and he brings a lot to a movie starring him, and he's just fun to be with for two and a half hours. You know, he really is in that rare class of actor. It's a relief to see him in something like this, honestly. I was a little worried that it was going to be the gray man and the fall guy and variations

on these things. And he's very well suited to this kind of a thing, that blend of serial comic drama, epic drama. There's a moment in the very first images of the movie in which we see the lights changing, the lights shifting in the ship. And we see this bold red and this bold blue that are very purposefully invoking 2001 to Space Odyssey. And that is no doubt on the minds of the filmmakers. You know, you mentioned ET, which is no doubt as is close encounters.

Interstellar is very much on the minds. But I liked what you said before about the simplicity of the science because it is almost the inverse of interstellar, which is like kind of begging you to keep up with the wormholes and the fractals and this kind of. kind of mega science that is at the heart of that movie. It's very, very Nolan-esque, Jonathan and Christopher. Yes. And this movie is more, like you said, a little bit more middle school style. I think also, like we've seen Ryan Gosling in a space movie before.

You know, this isn't the first time he's been an astronaut and in first man. He's kind of like the sad boy version of Rylan Grace, you know, Neil Armstrong. He's much more internal and has this kind of unresolved angst. It's flipped. He's like incredibly. professionally and outwardly successful and, you know, like internal crisis. Yes.

So, and cannot. And literally, you know, a man will do anything not to go to therapy. A man will literally go to the moon to not go to therapy, which is what happens in first man. And then at the end, they just, they're staring at each other through the quarantine glass. Yeah, the thing that really jumps out to me is watching, there's a moment in the film where it becomes clear

that these two ships are going to encounter one another, right? That Rylan has realized that there's a foreign spaceship that is sending out a blip, which is basically like a message. And the way that the ships move in space. Yeah. I've never really seen that in a space movie before in that specific way. They were like gliding.

It was almost like you were turning them on a, like an abacus or one of my children's like, you know, rail toys. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of slides. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a rhythm to the way that they move.

And it didn't feel like the way that the ships move in Star Wars. It didn't feel like the way that the ships move in Apollo 13. It didn't feel, it felt different. It looked different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's hard to make something look new. After 70 years, 80 years of space movies, actually this year is really funny. I have been trying to figure out a way to do something about the origins of science fiction at the movies.

and 51 is the day that the Earth stood still and there's one other classic. I can't remember which one, but that's really the 70th anniversary of like the dawning point of science fiction at the movies. There were other previous films like Metropolis and things like that, but how we know them, there's aliens, there's humans, there's U.S. mission control, and we're putting rockets in space and all of our anxieties about the Cold War and all of these

stories being introduced to us and the idea of being able to still make something look and feel new in these worlds is very exciting for me and rewarding um i you know i was reading a couple of reviews and i saw some some tisking at daniel pemberton score which i thought was magnificent and is like rhythmic and jazz like in the first half and then more kind of like epic and choral in the second half and i found both of those strokes to be really really impressive what did you think of the score I mean, it understands that the movie's both a procedural and, you know, an emotional epic. And a lot of this film, even though it's set in deep space and was filmed on IMAX and is meant to see on the biggest screen possible, like, is a guy and a small alien in a room, you know, or they're looking at a cell or they're doing very, very small things in rooms. And so I think that the bigger score, especially communicates, like, some of the grandness that,

is meant in this movie. They are still in space, you know, even though you're just watching them float around in tubes a while. So I liked it, but I particularly liked the percussive stuff. The first half. Yeah. And also, it plays up the comedy, which this is. This is a very funny movie. And I find that comedies don't always have scoring or soundtracks that, like, meet the level of the material.

It's very true. Yeah, it can often just take away or distract or not take it as seriously. Yeah, Pemberton, my favorite thing he's ever done is the Spider-Verse scores. And obviously, he's worked with Lord Miller before because they produced those movies. And he is an incredibly variable composer. If you go and listen to his work on Spotify across the many films he's made, it's a lot of different styles. And he has clearly a lot of different influences. But I was really impressed by this.

And, you know, speaking of Lord Miller, the other thing, too, is like I said, it's been a long time since they've directed a movie. Right. And I mentioned solo earlier in this episode. And they were directing solo. They did direct chunks of solo. And then they were fired by Lucasfilm. And Ron Howard was hired to replace them. And one of the reasons why that movie is ultimately a nothing burger is that it's like two completely different filmmakers with completely different sensibilities,

smashing together a story and a script. You know, some of the suggestion in that story is that Lawrence Kasden didn't really like the tone that Lord Miller were pursuing because he is kind of the author of Han Solo. He writes all the great Han Solo dialogue. And they were trying to do something different. And presumably just much more in their tone, I've always wanted to see their version of Solo just because it would have been a different kind of Star Wars movie. But this movie does kind of feel like revenge for that experience. Yes. And I mean, and better for sure. Not that I've seen... Definitely better than solo. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day to day, but our favorite films,

with stories that make us change the way we think, that weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, from VW, and the other drivers out there, grab the wheel. Do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn more at VW.com.

do you think people are going to like this movie? I should say do you think people are going to love this movie? Because it is a very big and expensive swing from Amazon. They have had a checkered past with their movie distribution. They're attempting now to be a real, we've released 12 films theatrically per year studio. There's a gap. We could use the studio who's willing to do that.

Yes. You kind of can't get a bigger, more big tent original story. Obviously, it is based on a novel, but this feels more like 2009 than it does 2026. And it certainly feels like 2015. And people loved The Martian. The Martian made a tremendous amount of money. Yeah. It was like $500 million.

Yeah. And I will say, now that I have rewatched The Martian recently, I think this might be better than the Martian. The Martian... It's pretty close for me. Which we love and really enjoyed. And also had that feeling in 2015 and being like, wow! they just made, you know, a classic big budget adapted from a book studio movie. And it's Matt Damon and he's being a movie star.

And then all these people got to save this problem. You know, save this guy and solve this problem. But it's baggy. Matt Damon isn't as funny as I remembered, though it's not his fault. I just do think some of the Andy Weir character humor, like, we got to science the shit out of this. You know, which is, I think in its time, it was very funny. And now, like, how is it aging that comic sensibility? Yeah.

But it is just kind of funny to locate that there is, like, a noticeable strain of humor to both of these that is, like, stands out. Yeah. And I, anyway, people really like The Martian. I really liked The Martian. So, theoretically, they would also like this, which is the Martian. and like maybe slightly more complex, but also with a cute alien? I, yeah, I don't know.

The Martian, as I recall, was an October film, right? Yeah, it was released October 2nd. And Project Hill Mary does kind of feel like an October movie. This is an interesting release date before this movie. We were in Vegas last April, where they showed us the extended first look at this movie. We were both like, whoa, holy fuck. Yeah.

This looks really cool, and I didn't even know this was coming. And that has me thinking about how there's usually one movie at the beginning of every year now that it becomes a movie that we talk about for 12 months at the Academy Awards. And last year it was sinners. A couple years before that, it was Top Gun. A couple years before that, it was everything everywhere at once. I don't really know if this is a best picture contender. I think it is. I think it is too.

We went and saw it for a second time the night after the Oscars. And again, that first hour and a half, I was still very much an Oscar's mindset and shattered, you know, intellectually and emotionally. And I was like, oh, this is definitely, this is definitely an Oscars movie. There's so much to like about it. It's such a big scale. And we do have this precedent of, you know, big scale movies being released earlier in the year and making it all the way. And also, like, gravity being nominated for Best Picture. Like, there's some precedent for the kind of movie that it is, too, the Martian, obviously.

Arribal. Yeah. So I think it could be. Is it too much of a comedy? I don't know. There are a lot. Ryan Gossinger cries like a lot in this. A lot.

And he, you know, holds the camera just so for a lot of it. I was absolutely dying, laughing at both times. At the close-ups of him watching Sandra Huller sing a, an emotional karaoke song. Yes. We don't have to spoil any more, even though it's been widely. reported. It's a great scene. I love her performance is amazing. Yes, she's amazing. But, I mean,

he's just sitting at the bar in a sweater that you turned to me halfway through and said, I need to buy this sweater. And he's got these rimless glasses and it is framed just so, and he's leaning just so for, you know,

his movie star shot. The camera is looking at him, looking at her. Yeah, but he knows it. And he's like, okay, here it is. Here's time for me to be Ryan Gosling and for everyone who showed up to see Ryan Gosling, to get some Ryan Gosling. So he is doing all of that

along with all of the puppet stuff. But I don't know. I guess it's how much can you market the Rocky of it all before? Because I was thinking about it like our children would love Rocky. They would be bored by the rest of it.

But that's okay. Even the way he speaks is so funny. And they would like definitely laugh. There is a physical comedy element to it. And I think that you have, that is a real crowd pleaser. But you can't. That's the word for the movie.

It is a real crowd pleaser. But you can't, it feels like there's already too much in the trailer, you know, of. Yeah, you know, I will say when the trailer first hit, I think you and I were both a little disappointed that we even learned of the existence of Rocky.

But then you learn pretty quickly, it's about 45 minutes before Rocky shows up in the movie. And he is as much the center of the movie as, as Grace is. They do, I think, almost, it's 45 minutes before you get to Rocky. And then I think they do almost, it's 35, 45 minutes of just Grace and Rocky before you go back to Earth. Right. Which is another, I mean, again, this is just part of there's so much to fit into this movie that, you know, they can't actually start the plot for an hour and a half because they had to do all the setup and then they had to give you your Rocky time. That's right.

But you can't do without the Rocky time because it's. So charming. The second time around, there was a little bit of, like, some plaintive moments of them, like, staring at each other that are a little drawn out. But for the most part, I agree with you. Well, they were doing the E.T. But then they were pointing. Yeah.

Yeah. There's a lot of time spent on that tunnel that is built from ship to ship. Yeah. Well, they got to dance for more physical comedy. I like the dancing. I think below the line, this movie's going to do very well. There's definitely production design, visual effects, maybe score. I don't know how you recognize the puppeteering work. Preacher design?

That is something that, you know, presumably it goes into production design. I think it goes into, I mean, Neil Scanlon has been nominated for visual effects. For visual effects. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess visual effects would be the place where that work goes. But it does have that feeling of like a Mad Max Fury Road-esque. Like, there's a lot of places where they could recognize. this movie in the awards.

I'm very, very curious to see how well it does. The Martian made $630 million worldwide. Yeah. That's very good. If this movie makes $630 million, that's a huge success. In terms of the Oscar race, though, Dune Part 3 is coming out. Mm-hmm.

And it's unusual for two huge science fiction movies to be nominated for Best Picture. In fact, I can't really think of a time when it's happened. Though, let's see. It's in the 10-year run. So since 2009. What was in 2009? What was the year that like district whatever? District 13.

District 13. There weren't two that year. Maybe there were. I believe that was that ultimately the 2010 Oscars. Yeah. And then I'm looking at... District 9, not District 13. Oh, you're right, Avatar.

Yeah. District 9, a smaller movie. I think Katness Everdeen is from District 13. Okay. Right? Guys, Hunger Games in the booth? District 12. Oh, okay.

Would you volunteer as tribute for me in fight in the Hunger Games? Before you, you actually got to the screen, you go to Project Hail Mary a little bit late, and they showed the new Hunger Games trailer before, and I was sitting there with Chris, and I was like, I'm just in on this. I just think this movie looks good, and I want to see it.

I didn't really care for the last Hunger Games movie. I don't even love those previous films, but I'm interested. The Martian was also nominated up against Mad Max Fury Road, just which are different, but, you know. One's more like epic war movies, movie in the desert. But you're right there. They're not that far field. Post-apocalyptic

for sure. Would I volunteer for you? Would you? I mean, I think I have a way better chance than you do. Of surviving in the hunger games? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Training more, pain tolerance higher. I'm pretty shrewd. I'm fairly ruthless, though. And just, and there is a physicality to it. Respectfully, like, you haven't been at the gym recently.

I feel like I'm doing very well. And I've been meeting people in Pilates class who listen to this. What's up, Chase? If you're listening at home. Chase's story. I saw Chase at Motivate. He was very friendly, and he lives in the neighborhood. It's great. I was very excited.

Nice. There's usually one man in a Pilates class, and I'm always a fan. I think it's very brave to be the one man in the Pilates class, and that was Chase. How do you feel when someone approaches you and says, hey, are you a man to Dobbins? What do you do? I usually introduce myself and ask their name. I'm happy about it. Can I tell you about what happened last night?

where I was out to dinner at Queens with friends. And a nice man named David came over with a ngroni in hand and put it down for me. Because he's like, I needed to bring you a groney. That's my best friend for life, David. So I feel amazing. Also, by the way, it was my third ngroni. And look at me here and thriving. Wow.

That's impressive. Thank you. I had zero ngronis. Once again, I've been training. Right? I've been in the gym. I've been at the bar. I'm ready.

So I could win hunger games. I don't think there's a bar component in the Hunger Games But do we know What do they have to drink There's no no Nogroni challenge What do they have to drink though You know? We got to have access to fresh water

We gotta holler at your girl Jen Lawrence Progenitala Mary Dynamite Really really good A lot of fun Yeah What a great way to kick off I guess the post Oscars

60 million I think in that vicinity Even though I know that tracking is broken I think that's just domestic as well You know, it's going to take a while to get up to $250 or whatever this movie cost. But let's go to my conversation with Phil Lord and Chris Miller, because they'll tell you all the ways in which this movie was built and shaped and looks the way that it does.

For the first time, Phil Lord and Chris Miller, thank you both for being here. It's been a minute since you guys have made a movie. Curious, when did the book hit your desk? And then how do you decide you want to direct something? Let's see. So Ryan sent us the book with Amy. There's a manuscript before it was published. Okay.

Ryan Gosling and Amy Pascal. That's right. Yes. To you there, Ryan and Amy. Yes, exactly. And we had a pre-existing relationship with Andy Weir. Our producing partner, Aditya, discovered The Martian. It was an e-book.

And put together that movie and brought Drew on. So when we got the manuscript, Adithia said, guys, this is your next movie. And then we read it in one night and we're like, you're right. What is it that he saw that made him say that to you? I think it's, first of all, we've made a lot of movies about friendship. And people whose friendship is the reason they can do something really hard. Our movies are, we like to say, 51% optimistic. And this novel is so affirming.

And we try to make movies that help people imagine goodness. And that's what the book did when I read it. Also, it seemed really hard, and that's kind of exciting for us. You're like, oh, the co-star of this movie is an alien with no face and no eyes, no mouth, and speaks in whale song. Fantastic. And you have to fall in love with it. Great.

And like the spectacle, the scale, the massiveness of it, you could just feel it on the page. And but really it was like the, you know, the emotional heart of it. And it was crazy that by the end with all the twists and turns and surprises that the last third of that book has, like how I found myself like, oh, my God, I would die for this rock. And you're like, I don't know how he did it. but we have to make you feel that way. I got confident reading about that he had no face. Yeah. I was like, oh, we know how to do this.

And I feel like somebody else might not do it right. What do you mean when you say that? So like Rocky, the co-star, alien co-star of the movie in the novel has five limbs and no face and no mouth and no eyes. And he speaks in whale language. And so we, you know, most people would be, most people who finance movies, would be really scared by that. They would say, oh, he has no eyes, but the eyes are the window to the soul.

How could you possibly relate to a character? And I was like, well, I don't know. Like, every Pixar movie opens with like a lamp, you know, being a parent, right? So I was like, we human beings are so good at projecting personality onto inanimate objects. That's why every car has like a smiling grill on the front of it and little light eyes or windscreen eyes.

And so I was like, oh, we know how to help the audience project a personality onto a rock. Okay. I'm curious, like, the hard part that you mentioned. What does that mean to you practically? Is it like the scale of the movie? Is it space? Is it just the translation of the rock? Well, it's like a lot of things.

There's, you know, this, you know, has a lot of zero microgravity, which means like a lot of wires and like a lot of like technically complicated choreography. This, you know, having, we wanted to do, have Rocky really be there and have a, have a be a creature that was puppeted so that Ryan would have a scene partner and so that we could, you know, capture, you know, Rocky really and not have him have to

act with a tennis ball on a stick. So we knew that that meant, okay, now we have to, this thing's going to have to be operated by a team of five puppeteers that we called the Rockettees. led by James Ortiz. But now we're going to have to find a way for us to like find a place for them to even exist to operate the puppet. Right. Means we have to build the sets, you know, five feet off the ground.

Right. So that they don't block the light. And then... And by the way, the two main characters are always separated by glass. Right. And so that means that like, oh, it's going to reflect all the cameras. It's going to like make really gnarly, like, bright lights blocking your view.

It's going to require tons of touch-up. Meanwhile, we're going to have to erase puppeteers, but behind glass. So it just made the whole movie. It's a book about overcoming odds, right? Impossible odds and solving problems. And so it meant that the making of the film was going to be a way to experience the story ourselves and that we had to solve a lot of problems by gathering a bunch of smart people of working. We also create our own obstacles. The thing we make things even more complicated. In the book,

you know, there is, the ship has centrifugal gravity, but it's all, all the rooms are sort of stacked like a rocket ship or a lighthouse. And we thought it might be interesting if it had one orientation of gravity when it was traveling like a lighthouse, but then when it separated and started spinning, that it would turn on its side so that, It wouldn't be vertical, it would be horizontal, and the wall would become the floor. So we'd have a secondary version of gravity. So that meant that the ship, which we built in its entirety, had to be oriented vertically and then disassembled and reassembled horizontally, each room of the ship, which was an insane thing to do.

Two of the HODs are Greg Fraser, the incredible cinematographer, and Paul Lambert, who's like one, four-a-offer. for visual effects. And they looked at us one day and said, this is the most complex film we've ever worked on, and we made two dunes. And so there's something about those, like, obstacles that get us excited. I don't know if I ever told you this.

I have a close family friend who had Parkinson's, and when he was struggling to move around, one of the things he would say to us is like, will you put your foot and place it in, front of my feet. And then he was able to step over it. But it was only by placing an obstacle in front of him that would like get him over the, get when he got like stuck. And I always thought that was a really interesting thing. Sometimes like limitations or like hard problems to solve make you do something that you haven't seen before. And that's really what we're always trying to do

with everything is make something that feels new and original. You started to talk about gravity and the construction of the ships and the way that they operate. And the movie is, I've been told that it is less scientific than the book, which is tremendously scientific, but as a movie watcher, I was like, this is deeply rooted in science. And there are extended passages where there is a lot of conversation that is scientifically based. Yes. And like long passages with no dialogue where they just like put things in pipettes and centrifuges. Yes, totally. And it is its own little science experiment in that way. But I was, I'm curious how you guys thought about how an audience might feel about that. What's the line between keeping it true versus keeping it

coherent and how you work through that with Ryan too? Well, we wanted all the science to be real and we wanted, other than the invented stuff from the book, like an alien species and an alien. Even those things, we were like, the novel is true. Right. Everything that Andy established, that's real. Let's pretend it's everything is real. But we also didn't want, this is a lecture. This is an piece of entertainment, right? This is supposed to be fun and exciting and for everybody. So how we didn't have the advantage of the book where you can hear Rhineland Grace's thoughts.

So we had to show the audience what was happening in a way that was easily digestible, entertaining, and fun. And so that was the real challenge of the movie. But thankfully, we, you know, we test our movies with friends and family and strangers more than probably anybody.

We're very, like, we probably screen this movie 11 times before we lock the cut. Right. And every time it was sort of like, is anyone confused? Is anyone bored? Is anyone, where's the parts that people are feeling like either they're losing engagement or they're not following what's happening?

And so like how can we simplify this? How can we make it interesting and cinematic and tell you without like having a lecture? And so that's how we ultimately find the right balance. We shoot too much and then we like hone it into something that is, that's entertaining. But we imagine that the audience would go with it because it's kind of like watching Rufi or Thief or something where you're like watching someone like crack a safe or dig a hole for 20 minutes in the floor. And you're just kind of interested in the process. You know, in watching people do a job well, like one of our favorite genres of cinema. And so we thought, well, if the, it's actually something learned from watching Denny's first Dune movie.

If the emotional story is palpable, then you will pick up the lore. And in our case, like, the lore is, like, the science. You'll pick it up as you go and you'll look for it and try to understand it because you're so invested in the character. And if you don't follow, there's the, like, ins and outs of the science of the story. It doesn't matter. You're following the plot and the characters, and that's what you care about. Is he going to get the thing that he needs? Right.

I don't know exactly why he needs the thing, but I really want him to get it. Yeah. Because he seems to think he needs it. It's true. There are, like, xenon gags, though, so you are still touching the very specific languages. Yes. I always call what you're describing ingenuity porn. There's something about really exciting

about watching someone solve something, and this movie is full of that. The legacy of space movies is very intense. There's like hundreds and hundreds of movies about space, but then there's also like four or five movies that's in way above those other movies. And I do feel like your movie is really grasping to be like I'm one of those four or five movies.

It is. It's kind of like with a kid who shows up early at the party. I mean, time will tell. You never know, right? But I, even just the way that objects moved in space, I was like, this feels different. This feels like the energy is different. The way that the objects are operating feels different in a way that it is like communing with the history of space movies, but not imitating. I don't know if that was intentional.

I'm just like reflecting on how I felt about it. We wanted to do our own thing, right? We don't want to do an homage to anything. We wanted it to be its own movie and have its own space. I think we often said this movie, is it. not a Mac. It's a PC. It's not slick. It's not shiny. The guts of the ship are on the outside. You can, like, it's messy. He's messy. You know, it was like really important to us and to Ryan to represent what, like, a regular person would be like in this scenario. And so we were like, oh, yeah,

there's no one else on this ship. He would just throw all his, like, crap on the ground. And then it would be a huge problem when it, when Zero G hit and suddenly it was, like, floating around everywhere. So we wanted, and this was a great thing about working with Greg. Fraser is like he is an amazing DP, but he's not a perfectionist. He's an imperfectionist. And so he's always like, I want to find something kind of messy or sloppy or imperfect about the image. And so it all kind of coalesced around making space a little bit more tactile and weirdly

relatable. Right. Like it feels like immediate and intimate and you're, and it was like, it felt sort of found in a way and less formalist. Like that was sort of, we, at every scene, we would do what we called the Greg Vibs Pass, which was after we felt like we got the scene, we were like, okay, we're going to do one more. We're just going to run the scene, and then Greg's going to come with a camera on his shoulder and just sort of find the moment.

And that was, what was cool was that, you know, because we had the sets really built, and there was no green screen in the movie whatsoever, right? And because we had a real Rocky, it didn't matter the scene. He could go anywhere and find a shot and line up something that felt like it was discovered. And it didn't feel, it felt like, you know, it had a sort of a little magic to it. And a lot of that stuff made it into the movie because it just feels different from other space stuff. Yeah, I was going to ask you what percentage of the vibes shots do you think actually made it into the final cut? A lot because, you know,

Like, that's the hard thing to do when you're making a movie that requires so much planning is for it to be driven by intuition. So we're trying to create the conditions that allow Greg, you know, to shoot 360 basically. You know, Greg, like, lit most of the scenes in such a way that you can point the camera anywhere and create the conditions for Ryan to improvise, to respond directly to his scene partner and have things feel more captured and spontaneous. which is like so hard to do when you're like strung up on wires. But we wanted space to be, we wanted the movie to be playful. And it requires a lot of planning to be able to have that freedom, right? And so you have to like, we like pre-shot all the space stuff virtually. First is to make sure that we had the walls of the set can move out that we needed.

And we had the right size and shape of everything. And that we were going to be able to be using the right equipment. And, you know, and when we did, but, but, That allowed us to be free when we were shooting. And then similarly, like, when we did wire stuff, like, there was a very tropey version of space where everyone's on, like, a wire and going slow motion, like they're in a ballet or a bad high school production of Peter Pan or something. But when we talked to astronauts there, it's not like that.

Like, you're suspended in the air, but, like, you move at regular speed, and it's clumsy. You can get stuck in the middle if you're too far from the walls. So, like, you're constantly pushing yourself off one while and balking into another. And the first few days that you are experiencing microgravity, you are a total clutz and you're smashing into everything. And so we, you know, and so we set up this rig, which was on where Ryan was in a spin ring and we had like flexibility with the way that the wires could move so that he could spin his body in any direction, flip around, basically do air parkour. And we'd be like, okay, you got to get from here to there. and just like do however you would and give him the freedom to sort of like

mess his way to the spot. And that kind of like planning and preparation to allow for freedom is like it's so much harder than you might imagine. Can you tell me a little bit about directing Ryan to make this work? And like how much did he like acting opposite a puppet? Was it difficult?

to do that? Like, you hear a lot of, obviously, a lot of stories about actors acting opposite tennis balls, like you mentioned. And this is different, but it is also a, it's a different performance style. It is. You, you know, for Ryan, I think, you know, he's such a big believer in the book. He was excited and scared, which is, like, where you want to be. And, like, Sidney Pollock would ask his HODs when he started a movie. He would say, do you want to get scared? And the whole point of it is, again, those obstacles. So I think Ryan is like us and that he likes having those provocations from like the challenge. And then, you know, he's such an important part of Rocky's performance. His belief that Rocky is a person and that Rocky has status in the scenes

is so critical. One of my favorite things about Ryan is how he, as a handsome movie star, who's really smart and a great filmmaker, he always confers status to the character. characters around him. Even when he's on SNL, like the way he, like his clown is to be the low man in the scene. And so when he's around Rocky, he's going like, hey, I'm sorry I'm talking so much. You know, I just really want to be here. Like, he's trying to get on, he's playing get on the team. Yeah. And so that's what we talked about as a, you know, the four of us, us, you know, us Ryan and James Ortiz, who plays Rocky, is like, you're older than him, Rocky. You think you're smarter than him. You're certainly not as clumsy as he is.

And you pity him. Right. And I think the big difference is that you had this actual performance that's coming with James and the Rocketeers, what we call this team of puppeteers. And there was like this back and forth. They could improvise and would improvise scenes for long, long stretches. And you could get these real reactions from Ryan that are like he was surprised by the thing that James did and was like tickled by it or surprised by it or thrown back by it. And then Rocky was reacting to whatever it is that Ryan did. And like, and James, the voice that he was doing on set was the voice that we used in the movie.

And so their banter is natural because he has a real scene partner. It's not him imagining himself having a same partner. Right. So you're responding to each other. And suddenly like you stop acting or having you. You start reacting. Yes. Start just behaving, right?

I'm always interested to talk to directing duos. Yes. because it's a unique relationship. Division of labor is always interesting to me around this. You guys have known each other for a very long time. Just working together for a very long time. But I'll sometimes ask like writing duos, are you back to back in a room as one person standing

and the other person talking? But when you're on set, who's responsible for what? Are you changing every day, what you do? We're side by side at a monitor. Often the communication is nonverbal. Right. And whomever is most preoccupied.

with something in that moment is the one who's taking charge and running onto the stage. We try not to have like two people run up to an actor and like give thoughts because then it can be like the contradictory and so usually when we've gotten

to onto set like we have worked and reworked that scene and we know exactly what we want to get out of it. And we've written together that's one like rule we have is like we ride together on the way to the stage so that we can

talk about the day's work. Okay. And then we like are watching and then we can look at each other and go like, needs to be a little faster, right? Okay, I'll go talk to them. And then, you know, or it'll be like one of us to be like, I feel like it should be, they should be yelling. And I'm like, oh, but I feel like they're too mean.

And they're like, well, let's do the angry take now. And then we'll do a safety that's like a sweetie pie take. And then we'll figure it out in the editing room. But we sort of like allow that each version to have its own moment. we go like, okay, let's go and let's just like really let them have it, and then come back around after that, okay, that was great. Now, just to try a different version, let's try one where you're like trying to be kind to each other and then... Just trying to give them whiplash by like alternating ideas. You try to like start with one

and then guide towards the other. And I think for us, like this relationship is not unlike the one that, you know, Ryan has with Rocky or with, you know, Ava Strat, played by Sandra Hewler, is like you have to accommodate one another's like quirks. Like, and what you're hoping to do is to magnify one another's differences, not like, like, a Lord Miller movie cannot be like the Venn diagram, like subsets of the things that we both agree on. It has to be like the full, like both circles and the part in the middle so that you get a broader set of ideas.

And you stop. don't worry about editing them. You just have to trust and embrace what the other guy is interested in. Would you know how to define what are the things in your own individual parts of the circles? Hard to say. It depends on the moment, right?

And then we sometimes switch. Right. Because like if I'm like always, like I'm, if Chris gets super upset, I immediately become a peacemaker. Like a married couple, basically. Like you, you, like some of your functions atrophy because the other person is stronger. Right. You have to yank someone's yen sometimes. Right. But, but we're usually coming at it from the same place. And it's only about like 5% of the time that we're like seeing it slightly differently. And so we just try to get as much as we can and then figure it out in the editing room. Yeah. I'm sorry if that's an unsatisfying answer. Do you have a good answer? We don't really, we don't really division. We don't divide labor. We do sometimes in a different interests. In writing, in writing what will.

do is we'll talk, talk, talk, talk about the scenes and whoever's got a clearer idea of the scene, they'll write that scene and someone else write the other thing, and then we'll swap pages and they'll get back together and we'll talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, and then, like, figure out something and then similarly, like, take turns on stuff. When we ran a TV show room, like, we thought that there was a great value in group writing and also a great value in individual writing and concentration and just the things that pop into your head and that you accept without being challenged. And I think we tried to balance that have a little bit of both.

I'm curious also about the tone. I've had this nice experience of showing my five-year-old some of your movies. Not on, she's not on 21-22 Jump Street. It's not there yet. It would not be the first five-year-old to see that film. It's probably true. But, you know, even 22 Jump Street and the Lego movie and Cloudy, like they all, they have a vibe, they have a tone, they have a sensibility to them.

They're friendly. Yes, they are. And they're antic and they're excitable in a good way. Yes, that's true. And this movie has some of that, but not all of that. Like, it is different. And I was kind of curious, like, what it was like to confront material and try to make sure that you're putting your stamp on it, but maybe not get in its way as well because you have your own sensibilities, but this preexisting material is here. How did it feel doing that?

I mean, you really want to honor this book. Like, we were so blown away by the story and the tone and the vibe of the book. Luckily, the book is doing a lot of things that we like to do, which is, like, it's funny. it's exciting. It's really emotional. It's about a friendship and all this stuff. So it's in our wheelhouse of things that we like. And so we didn't really think too much about like.

Adjusting the tone or anything. This is what the scene is. This is how the scene goes. And what's cool about human beings is that we can laugh and cry right on top of each other. And the best dramas make you laugh and the best comedies make you cry. And so if you make a movie that makes you feel all of the feelings, you've laughed, you've cried, you've been excited, you were scared,

you were on the edge of your seat, you were curious, you had everything. And then you come out of that movie going like, wow, I just felt, I went on a ride and I had a whole experience of feelings. And then you feel like it was worth going to the theater for. What was the single hardest thing to capture in the movie? Hmm. Like hard fun, hard or like hard hard hard? Like I would say, I'm curious about so many things that were hard in this movie.

But one thing that was, it took a while to R&D, but when we got it, it was crazy magical was. So there's a scene when they're collecting astrophage, which is the sort of space algae that's eating the suns. And you can only see them in infrared. light. And so Ryan's characters out on the hull of the ship collecting a bunch of this astrophage, and he's surrounded by this invisible thing, and we sort of get a moment to visualize what an IR camera would be seeing and what's actually all around him. And the way that we did that was you take a filter out of the camera that's blocking the IR light so that it is an IR camera. And it made this beautiful pinkish-reddish color thing.

And what we did was we put Ryan on stage surrounded by a bunch of chicken wire filled with infrared lights that were like sparkling. And then we had... Greg built an aquarium sort of like a double glass window with a hose dripping water through it. In front of the handheld camera. and then he would sort of stand around Ryan, who was, like, going like this in this chicken cage,

but he couldn't see anything because he couldn't see the lights because they're invisible to the naked eye. It looks ridiculous to the naked eye. And then when you look on the monitor... It's this beautiful thing with all these, like, Boka lights, flickering everywhere all around, like, surrounded by it, and you're, like, watching the monitor and then watching reality. If you look on the...

You walked onto the stage, like Amy Pascal walked onto the stage. There's like a huge spaceship over there taking up most of the stage. And in the corner, a bunch of dorks like crowding around this like cage that we built around. And we're all going like, oh my God. It's incredible. I'm seeing heaven. And she's like, what are you losers doing? And then we showed her to the monitor and she lost her mind.

That's really good problem solving. Did you have to do like 10 other things to figure out of experience? We were going to shoot, we wound up shooting that, like, really late in the schedule because on the day we planned to do it, we didn't have a good enough answer. Methodology. Yeah, we were just like, we like, well, let's try it. We were kind of winging it and we're like, let's cut bait and do it for real. Like, the lights need to, like, interact with his body and light him up as they're lighting or else it will look fake. And so we were like, we tried a bunch of different versions and it wasn't quite getting there.

So then it built the cage. Yeah. One thing that the movie has that a lot of great space movies have is an incredible. score. Yeah, Pemberton. Daniel Pemberton score is very memorable and it feels essential. And I'm just like wondering when did he come in? At what point do you have music?

Is it before? After shooting, is he looking at a cut and then adding? So during shooting, we asked Daniel, we were shooting in London. We just said, come by the set and just see what we're up to. And like, just write a few sketches because sometimes Ryan likes to perform with music. And so we had all these sequences that were, you know, silent or without much dialogues. We're like, let's just like whip something up. And one of those pieces is in the movie.

And so it gave us like a feel. And the other thing we discussed with Daniel was, I don't want Ryan to feel alone. We want him to feel like the entire earth is rooting him on. And so that's why it's full of choirs and like lots and lots of players. He brought in a bunch of school children to like stomp and clap. For the percussion. Like his kids from his classroom were like still part of his consciousness

Because it just didn't again we kept wanting the movie to be affirming and warm and feel like you were we were all in this together So one of the early things that happened is he he found a leaky faucet in his Friends apartment flat pardon me because he's English and he and it and it became one of the signature themes of the movies what opens the movie It's like when you turn it a certain way of a go and he was like, I've got to record this. And he recorded it, different, like, pitches of it and then turned it into music. And so the melody that winds up,

so that's like kind of a spooky sound. And what we talked about, I was like, it can't sing a spooky song. Like Ryan is waking up in great distress. He has no idea where he is. He's in a weird amniotic sack outfit that we made for him. And he's upset. I don't need the music to tell me I'm upset.

that I need the music to tell me that this guy is going to go somewhere, that we're rooting for him and he's worthy of great things. He's going to do great things, like a call to action. And like figuring that stuff out was a real back-and-forth trial and error process. I think his music in the Spider-Verse films is also amazing. So it's like a really nice little union that you guys have going with him. The scores are always really playful. I think for this one, it's like we all knew.

that what was possible and that it could be one of Daniel's great scores. And he knew it too. And I think we put a lot of effort into trying to make it work. And he worked really hard on it and totally nailed it. In my opinion, my unbiased opinion. Yeah, exactly. You guys are both movie fans. Movies like this are not that common anymore.

And I love how you just described for 30 minutes, how you made this movie basically practically. You built everything. It looks just more real because it is more real. And I think people really relate to that. But that's hard and that's more expensive than ever. Yeah. You know, of course. Why wouldn't we?

You want to make sure that they can still make movies like this in the future, right? But the bet you have to make is, A, you're going to make someone's favorite movie. And you have to be able to live with that. Like, if it doesn't hit. And the other thing is, like, you go, well, on average, I have a, I know that we can make. something that appeals and if you and that's smart it makes you feel good walking out of the theater you know the bar we have to clear every movie has to clear is undeniable greatness it is just the truth of like where the audience are somebody told us that really early in our career is like the bar anything it was television executive if you're doing something new if you're doing something original it has to be great or it's not going to like make it past like the everything else, all the big franchises.

People need to walk out of the theater and call their friend and be like, oh my God, you have to see it. I'm going to take you. All the movies that we grew up with that we loved, E.T., Little Shop of Horrors, Star Wars. Those are movies. I remember my dad seeing, he's done that for two movies. Little Shop of Horrors, he's like, we're taking your mother to this tomorrow night. Right?

And then the other movie was a South Park bigger, longer, long run. Hell yeah. I don't know why. The two classics. He's like, we're bringing your mother tomorrow. You maniac. But there is that that's where you have to get to. So I think every HOD, every day on set, we're trying to discover moments that make you want to bring your friend. And it was like everybody on the crew felt like they were doing something special. And so they put a lot of heart and soul and ideas into it.

And everybody really cared. And I think you can tell them. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? Have you guys seen anything good lately? Oh, I've seen a bunch of good stuff. I'm trying to think the last one. I'm trying to give you an answer that's not...

Obvious? Not super obvious. We are at the tail end of award season. They've been catching up on stuff. Could be old or new. I tell you what, I just watched all the Oscar animated shorts because voting has begun. Yes.

They were great, by the way. I just finished them too. You don't have to say your favor, but maybe can you talk about a couple of them? Yeah. Because they're fresh in my mind as well. There was Papillon, which was like beautiful, like painting and repainting story about a swimmer. And I thought it was. I watched them with my kids and that my daughter especially was really interested in the process of how that was done.

It was beautifully done and like a beautiful story. I mean, they were all really good. But that one was just from a technique standpoint, I thought it was really, really beautiful. Yeah, I just watched that last night. Great timing on that. What about you? The last great thing I saw, I went to the CityWalk IMAX and saw a Crime 101. And particularly, they have these unbelievable shots of the 101 freeway.

Yeah. Not considered, you know, like a beautiful thing. subject to photo. Not our favorite place in the world either. And normally a place you're stuck in traffic. And, you know, Bart is a filmmaker we got to know in London while we were shooting. And just to see the way he turned that into poetry and, like, spun the camera and took the whole theater for this crazy ride, I just thought he's, I thought he was masterful.

I like that. Yeah. That movie looks incredible. It looks incredible. And it's like, it's a, we love a heist movie. It's a good old fashion, like, crime picture where the characters and their relationships are in the foreground. You know, it's like the thing you, it's a one last job movie, another one of my favorite sub-sub-genres. Yeah, and it makes, and it's L.A. for L.A., it makes L.A. makes L.A. look great.

You know, it's such a pleasure to watch that picture. Phil, Chris. Congrats. Thanks, thanks, guys. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks to Phil and Chris. producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for production support. We'll be back on Monday with a special conversation.

See you then.