The Big Picture - Quentin Tarantino on ‘Once Upon a Time … in Hollywood’ ... the Book!

Episode Date: June 29, 2021

Quentin Tarantino is here! The writer-director had adapted his film 'Once Upon a Time ... in Hollywood' into a novel, and on this episode he dives deep on everything: what's different from the movie, why he wrote a novelization in the first place, the movies he watched during quarantine, the future of moviegoing, and so much more. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Chris Ryan Guest: Quentin Tarantino Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's music critic Rob Harvilla curates and explores 60 iconic songs from the 90s that define the decade. Rob is joined by a variety of guests to break it all down as they turn back the clock. Check out 60 songs that explain the 90s exclusively on Spotify. I'm Sean Fennessey and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about once upon a time in Hollywood, the novelization. Joining us today, live and in the flesh to do so, is the author of that novel, the writer, director, maestro, Quentin Tarantino. Joining me to talk to Quentin for several hours, frankly, is Chris Ryan. Let's go right to our conversation with Quentin Tarantino. Holy shit, we've got Quentin Tarantino on the show.

Quentin, thank you for being here. Good to be here, mate. Chris, you and I both read this book in about four days. Yeah. It's a novelization of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, a film that you and I both loved. Quentin, there's an obvious first question here. Why did you write a novelization of this movie that just came out that everyone loved? I've always been a big fan of novelizations.

They were like the very first adult books that I ever read at like 11 or 12. And, you know, back in the 70s, you know, you go to the 7-Eleven, and there would be the comic books and the Spinner Racks, and then there would be the paperback Spinner Racks. And they would be filled with horror novels and crime novels and romance novels and movie novelizations. And some of the craziest movies, Meatballs has a novelization, believe it or not. It's quite moving, yeah.

Yeah, I really kind of want to read the Meatballs novelization just to see exactly what they did. But the thing was, though, I loved them. I thought they were really, really cool. And some of them, actually, I'm fairly in authority on them. And some of them are just a pretty much straight adaptation, prose version of the screenplay. But a lot of them are quite different. Oftentimes, a lot of times, a screenwriter wrote them themselves. Every once in a while, the director

wrote them, usually a writer director, but like Sam Fuller. Sam Fuller wrote a few. Wow. Like that he did a Naked Kiss novelization. His novelization for the big red one is actually better than the movie. But Sylvester Stallone did a good novelization for Paradise Alley. John Mollius did the novelization for Wind of the Lion. Okay, Spielberg did not do the novelization, even though he's credited for Close Encounters.

And absolutely, positively, George Lucas did not do one of the most famous novelizations of all time, Star Wars. That was absolutely Alan Dean Foster. But anyway, the thing is, I got kind of hit with a sense of nostalgia about them. And so I dug out my old novel, because I still have all my paperbacks that I got when I was a kid. And so I dug out all my old novelizations and started reading some of them again and reading the ones that I liked and reading some of the ones that

I bought that I never got around to reading. And I was like, wow, this is just a really fun genre. I mean, it's probably the most debased literary genre there is. I think they just exist right above dirty books. But I've always really loved them. These are cool. And I thought to myself, well, shit, I ought to do one of these for one of my movies. So my first thought was Reservoir Dogs because, oh, well, you know, mystery crime section in the bookstore. I mean, it's ready to go.

I mean, it goes right there. And I even wrote like two chapters of a Reservoir Dogs novelization. But then I thought, wait a minute, what the fuck am I doing? The last movie I did was Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I have tons of material that never saw the light of day. I mean, material that I never even typed up because, well, it's not going to be in the movie, but it was just edification for me. And people seemed to like it. So it just seemed like, oh, this could do really well. And also having done the movie and just kind of gone all around the world talking about it, I thought it would be real kind of fun that the movie was still so fresh in my mind

to tell the story in a different way and tell it from a vaguely different perspective. Did you have any rules when you're writing the book about what you do and don't want to put in there versus what was in the movie? So like, is there like, I'll have things that are expansions of scenes that might be in the film, which there are in the book. But then I was really, one of the things I loved about it was, it was like, if that scene had gone on 10 more minutes or if that scene, you know, if there had been then the camera pan to this other person that's also in the room with him and they have sort of an internal monologue that we get to hear. Yeah, it was, I had one pretext.

I'll tell you that in a second. But the idea basically was to make the best book possible. And the movie was to make the best movie possible. So they had different masters. So anything that was like really good movie-ish in the movie, I'm not trying to capture and figure out a way to do it novelistically and consequently there's like novelistic things in this that i didn't wouldn't bother to do in the movie and you know so i just uh um you know i just had a

different goal with it but i had a pretext involved and that was the fact that the, that the book, uh, uh, that is a publication from 1978. Okay. So that the book was, uh, this is all, the book that you're holding your hand was like printed in 1978. That was the idea. But then I also had to make a decision. I go, okay, wait a minute now. Okay. The novelistic narrator knows a lot and he jumps into the future a bit and talks about things in the future. Okay. Well, how much does he know? Is he an omniscient? I don't know if I said that word right. Does he know everything? I mean, does he know to 2020? Does he know that? I go, no, he can't know till 2020. That's ridiculous. So then I made a,

so I just made a, an arbitrary thing that the novelistic narrator knows up to 1999. So, one of the things that's great about it in addition to

expanding the story and in some ways remaking the story, there are aspects of it that are not the same as the film, which is one of the great reasons to read it is it's like a pretty great document film criticism you know there's a lot of stuff about movies about loving movies and understanding movies and you use cliff

as an avatar for that particularly but then other characters seem to be really interested it seems like a lot of the people in this story are obsessed with movies and they're sharing opinions and ideas that you never would be able to get on screen in a movie was that an incentive for doing it this way well you see well there's kind of two i think there's two interesting answers to that question um one to talk about the characters and another to talk about my methodology in writing it when it comes to the characters if they're obsessed by movies, they're not obsessed by movies the way you two guys are or the way I am or the way a film geek

would be. These are working professionals and they have an expert knowledge of their industry. If they know the name of all the character actors around and the name of all the TV directors and episodic television directors and movie directors that they – it's not because they're movie geeks sitting around. It's like, no, this is their business. Of course they know all the different actors that they're going to work with or they've worked with a zillion times. They know everybody in their industry. I mean, it was always really funny because, yeah, a lot of young actors today, they really don't know shit unless they've actually had some personal experience with it. But, you know, when you talk to like a Burt Reynolds or a Michael Parks or something like that, yeah, I mean, there's no actor you could mention. And they did not – not only did they not know who they were, they know their entire list of credits. It's not because they were studying them.

It was just the business. You know, it's like every role somebody else got, Michael Parks probably read for. So when he didn't get it, he knew who got it. Oh, George Maharis got it. Right. You know, and so it's, you know, and of course, if you're doing episodic television, it's your job to know the names of the different episodic television directors. And they like you and you like them and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

I mean, Burt Reynolds, it was amazing. When we did our table read for Once Upon a Time, Burt Reynolds was at the table read and the entire time that I, I knew him, which wasn't that long. Um, the entire time I knew him, I would just ask him, I would bring up a person. I'd bring up a situation, a movie to hear what he had to say about it. And he just would hold court. And it was just fantastic. I, I grew up listening to Burt Reynolds, tell Burt Reynolds stories on talk shows. So to actually get the live version was amazing. And so one of my favorite directors, I think you guys know, is the director William Whitney. Well, he directed Burt Reynolds in,

he only directed like Burt Reynolds a couple of times and it was in the fifties. It was during Burt Reynolds TV show, Riverboat. So, I mean, Burt Reynolds is lovely in the last year of his life. And we were having a break from the script reading. And I decided to ask him a William Whitney question. Now I'm going to, I'm asking this guy, does he remember the episodic television director that he worked with maybe four times

on a show he didn't like in the fifties? I don't know what I'm going to get. I'm expecting he might say I don't remember him. Okay. So I go over there and, you know, when Bert's sitting in a chair, he's not getting up, you got to get down, you know? And so I got down and I go, so Bert, I want to ask you a question. Do you remember, I want to ask you something about Riverboat. Oh boy. I go, well, there was a episodic television director who you worked with on Riverboat. Do you remember William Whitney? And he goes, of course I do. Of course you do. Great. Okay. Well, you know, I, I happen to think that he's one of the most underrated action directors in the history of cinema and one of the great Western directors.

You're right. Let me tell you a little bit about William Whitney, what it was like working for William Whitney. William Whitney worked under the assumption that there was no scene ever written that couldn't be improved by the addition of a fist fight. So you're working with the guy, right? And you know, you're doing a scene and you're saying your dialogue and all of a sudden, when you, ah, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. You guys are putting me to sleep.

Okay, Bert, you say that. He says that. You say that. And now you punch him. Now you. That makes you mad. So you punch him back. Okay, now we got a scene. Here we go.

Action! The idea that I could ask Burt Reynolds at whatever age he was on the last year of his life about an episodic director that he worked with four times in the 50s. I am sure nobody has brought William Whitney up to him, I'm guessing in 50 years, but we'll say at least 35. And not only does he, yes, I know who he is. Yes, I remember him. He comes complete with a whole William Whitney antidote, complete with zingers. And it's like, that's who these guys were. And there is an aspect in me writing the book, in me writing the book,

where I wanted to experiment, just slightly experiment with the idea of using film criticism as narrative. I've never read that before. I've never seen it before. I've read narrative film reviews, but I've never, and I don't try to do it all the time, but I wanted to experiment. Can this work as narrative? Does this stop the show or does it make the show deeper, you know? But now the trick though is in the second chapter when it's Cliff's

criticism is that it doesn't sound like me. It's got to sound like Cliff. If it sounds like me, I didn't do it. I didn't pull it off. I mean, I think Chris and I

were both kind of wondering about that is how much of Cliff's taste is your taste and how much of it is I pretty much agree with Cliff all the way

down the line, but it's not me but his experience of movies are a lot different I thought that was really awesome with like he's returning GI

he's just kind of checking stuff out I love that he's like pretty much looking at you know Rome Open City and an erotic movie and it's just like

I'm just experimenting here I'm just going to theaters and seeing what's out there yeah yeah his point of view is different from mine his life experiences is different from mine

he's not a movie fan. He's almost anything but a movie fan, but he finds something in the foreign films that makes sense to him. Can I ask you another question about the film criticism as narrative stuff? Because one of my favorite moments, without getting into the details of it

because I want people to be able to experience it, is this story that gets told about the making of Rosemary's Baby and the way of the framing of a shot, which think is that that's a story that fraker tells in visions of light yeah it is yeah yeah and it's so awesome um but it actually winds up being a story about roman and what was very specific about his genius and sharon's understanding of his genius and yeah that is that what you're kind of getting at when you talk about like fusing criticism with narrative

in there yeah well it's like well yes but also the even again

even though the novelistic narrator sounds remarkably like me he's not me he's the novelistic narrator

I will say I mentioned this to Chris. As I was reading it, I was like, this sounds like the voice that Quentin has when we come back after the break in The Hateful Eight. And he's like, let's reset the table on our story. And I was like, this is kind of what the book sounds like in a good way. Yeah, I know. Yeah, so it's not Quentin Tarantino telling you the story. It is a novelistic narrator.

Um, but, um, uh, to really kind of set up Roman Polanski's rockstar status, as it were, you kind of have to give a review of what Rosemary's, Rosemary's baby meant at that time and why it was special and why he was unique in doing it as opposed to anybody else that Paramount could have hired. And so now that's one of the ones I know works. And that was like, just kind of an open avenue to actually kind of explore. But then again, that was also, you know, but what you're talking about, that's not film criticism. That's just like movie lore, anecdote kind of stuff, but is woven in, woven into it. So I'm curious how much of the novel and some of the ideas were unpacked

after looking at the reaction to the movie versus things that you had imagined or considered as making a part of the film. And if you felt like you were addressing anything that had happened after the movie, or if it was just, this is kind of an extension and a reinterpretation of the story that I created.

I think, you know, I think the only moment in it that I think I might be, couldn't help, but be vaguely self-conscious as maybe the Bruce Lee section, simply because there was so much talk about it. And I tried not to do much talking on the subject. So, uh, you know, so actually letting you know where Cliff was coming from and, and that actually, no, he, he tricked Bruce Lee and, and, and, and, um, and just, you know, wherever, you know, and then where I was coming from, as far as how this worked and how, you know, uh, you know, that was the only part that I think couldn't help, but be tough self-conscious on it. But everything else, not really,

because there was nothing else that I felt that I needed to. And even that, I didn't make anything up after the fact. It's just literally I'm explaining what went down in a way. But the thing is, everything else was, I already knew who Cliff and Rick were and the situation. And so there was nothing I was like inventing because of the response. They were who they were. I came up with a zillion things in the course of writing the novel.

I didn't know I was going to go like in one of the Sharon chapters. I didn't know I was going to go back to the Sharon, one of the Sharon chapters, I didn't know I was going to go back to the set of, of the ambushers. Right. You know, or I mean the wrecking crew, I didn't know I was going to go to the set on the day, but then the next thing I knew I was writing it. Did you, how much fun was it to do the, because there's almost a novelization within the novelization where you're writing out the Lancer story with like this old school Elmore Leonard Westerns vibe. How fun was that just to get to do that?

Oh, that was a blast. That was when I was like meeting editors, but as meeting editors decide where to find a home for the novel, one of the editors goes, I asked what she thought of the Lancer chapter. She goes, well, arguably, those could be the best written chapters in the book. I'm like, well, of course,

because I'm not trying to sound like me. I'm trying to sound like Louis L'Amour. I'm trying to sound like Elmore Leonard. I wanted to play like a legit Western novel from that time period. But also just the fact that it gets, you know, it takes you deeper deeper into the lancer story which actually i think pays off in the last chapter did you feel more free

writing this way well i think you can't help but feel more free you know um uh because it's like um you know you're writing a script and you just can't say F the time, you know, you're making a movie. It's a movie. It's just not this unending thing. You know, it, it, it has a time. So you have to keep your eye and your mind on that. And it's a movie.

It's got to work as a fun movie to some, to some degree or another. And you're dealing with a gigantic audience, hopefully, that you're looking for. And, you know, it would be better. Obviously, you get criticism and obviously I've never shied away from criticism. However, you don't want on your opening weekend a couple of things that are like so hot button that that's all anybody is talking about.

And now your movie is only viewed through the lens of this one controversial aspect. You don't want that. It can happen later, but you don't want it as the movie is launched. But in a book, who gives a fuck? It's a book. It's just on a different scale all right i i the success will be uh the success will be you know it's just you know the the money is less if you don't like the book don't fucking read it if you want the book read it if you don't like it i don't give a shit uh uh you know if uh actually if this caused controversy all the better all the better for

a book sure let him talk about it were there parts of the story of the film that you found yourself bored by as you went back to kind of revisit and reimagine telling the story that you thought i should just cut this out or this is not cinema. This is not novelistic. It's cinematic. So it should go. Yes. I think, uh, um, yeah, anything that was just like overtly movie-ish cinematic I had, unless, unless it contained an important part of the story, especially dealing with those two days, then I, you know, then I dropped it. I just, I didn't need it. And, um, no, there was nothing that I wrote that was boring to me, but there was situations where I was like, huh, now how am I going to write this? So it's interesting. Cause it's also in the movie. Um,

and not just, just do a prose version of what happened in the movie. And then usually like, say Sharon going to Westwood, but to me, solving that, solving that, uh, and figuring out how to do it and then digging deep and solving,

I think was, was, you know, was the excitement of it. And, uh, you know, was the excitement of it. And, uh, you know, the only one that was actually daunting and I think I figured out a way to do it is Cliff going to spawn ranch because that's so simple. I go, I'm not going to, I'm not going to go in competition with my scene. I would, because that is all about the visuals of spawn ranch and the girls and the

mise en scene. I mean, and the sound and everything. I mean, uh, I would almost have to write 10 pages just to describe the place and still not do as good a job as one photo of it could do, but then killing it all from squeaky's perspective actually made it completely legit,

made it completely different, gave you a different, gave you the same scene, but from a different experience than you had it before. And actually worked out pretty good. I thought, what did you guys think? Actually, what did you guys think of that? I thought it was a brilliant move because it made the book just more propulsive because I was waiting for what you were not going to do. You know, I think on the one hand, the book flies because you know these characters and you know this setting and you like, I already obviously had a big emotional relationship to the story, but you kept setting trap doors. You know, you kept moving us in directions that we weren't expecting. So I thought it was very successful. Yeah. I also loved how you, in your mind, I think, especially reading this book, obviously it's a novelization of, I also loved how in your mind, I think especially

reading this book, obviously it's a novelization of a movie, I have to think of there's a camera in my mind while I'm watching and the idea that there's now this different POV,

that the camera's looking out a screen door, the text is only in it briefly, that she sees him pulling up, but they're not in that perspective of him pulling up and seeing them. I just love the flip of that.

I thought there were a lot of great flourishes where, you know, it suddenly changes a setting maybe. And that must have been so much fun to just sort of be like, well, what if I just put this in Marvin's office? Or what if I just did? Well, yeah, there was a thing where it was like, when I first wrote those,

the Marvin's office scene is, I think, the Marvin's office scene, okay, seven years ago, sometime after Death Proof, longer than that, okay, That's the Marvin's office scene is I think the Marvin's office scene. Okay. Seven years ago, sometime after Death Proof, longer than that. Okay. Is when I started writing this as a first initial thing. And the first two things I wrote were the Marvin Rick scene and the Aldo Ray scene. Those were the first two things I wrote on this story.

And it was always in the office. Now, when I did the movie, it was like, wow, who wants to start a movie in a stupid office? All right, now let's go to Mousseau and Franks. Well, that's a movie. All right, yeah, that's great. So there was a good choice for a movie to put it on there, but now that I'm doing it back again and I want to spend longer time, well, no.

Now it goes back to Marvin's office. Can you actually talk about the Aldo Ray thing a little bit? Because here's what it made me think of. You're well known in your career for kind of rebirthing actors that you loved over the years. You know, whether it's Pam or Robert Forster, Michael Parks, a number of people over the years. You've always talked about Aldo Ray. For years, you've talked about Aldo Ray. And now you get a chance to write Aldo Ray.

Like, was that as much an incentive to do this too? Well, it was, well, one, it's a sad chapter, you know, it's a sad chapter, but I think he has, he has dignity in his pathetic indignity, if that makes any sense. But I would have loved to have worked with Aldo Ray. It would have been fantastic. And I think this is probably going to be as close as I, well, actually the closest I ever did is I used to work with his ex-wife, Joanna Ray, as my casting director. That's right.

And one of the things that like, she would just say from time to time, I wish, I wish Aldo could have lived long enough to work with you. You know, you would have really taken care of him. You know, it would have been, it would have been really nice. Um, and so it was, you know, it was, it was, uh, uh, so it was great to put him in there, but it was also, I think his story is actually very interesting. And, uh, and yes, there's parallels with Rick. This is what Rick could be.

You know, if, if he, if he lets his demons get the better of him. I think there's something really kind of groovy about Cliff and Aldo having a moment together in Spain as they're doing a paella Western. But just after all these different careers we've talked about and I've shown you how careers work in Hollywood and how things work. Okay. Well, okay. Well, here's the cautionary tale. Yeah. This is the caution, but it goes this way too. This is the way it can go. With your process for this. I was wondering whether or not there's, you've got the movie, you've got the script, then you probably got all the research that's there in whatever form it's in. Did you find yourself mostly referring to the script, then you probably got all the research that's there in whatever form it's in. Did you find yourself mostly referring to the research?

Did you go back to the script and look at little parts of earlier drafts? Were there pieces from the film that were cut out that then you put into the novel necessarily? Oh, well, there was definitely scenes from the, and not everything we shot I added to the novel because it just, some of it was like movie stuff, you know, like I didn't need to have a whole sequence of them at Tommy's, even though I love that scene in the movie that nobody's seen.

Uh, but it's referred to, you know, they went to Tommy's that night. Um, yeah, I think, I think the, basically the idea was I just kind of had the script there, so I'm just telling the story. So when it came down, I tried not to overthink it. So when it came down, okay, so what's next? And then, okay, it's this section. Okay, do I want to tell this story? Or, okay, no, I think this is a good time for a cliff in the past.

And the whole idea of those cliff in the past, they're like little pulp novels unto themselves starring Cliff. Yeah. And the whole idea kind of is, look, I want you to like Cliff as much as you did when you saw the movie. But I like the idea that when you read the stories about his past,

each one is more disturbing than the last. Yeah. But I think you still like him. But a boy, I'm trying to make it, I'm trying to make it I'm trying to make it as hard as I can

that story is very special I thought about this a little bit you know Cliff is a little bit less loquacious in the film than he is in the book

and McQueen obviously looms large over this and the axioms about McQueen kind of like saying I don't need to say that just put the camera

on my face I'll be peeling an apple exactly while Don Gordon does all the dialogue over this and the axioms about McQueen kind of like saying like, I don't need to say that. Just put the camera on my face. I'll be, I'll be peeling an apple. Exactly. Well, Don Gordon does all the time. Like,

did that occur to you that this is almost like the version of cliff of McQueen said, don't cut the lines out at like this, let him say all the dialogue. Well, I, uh, um,

I don't think he's that much more, uh, uh, uh, loquacious. I mean, because the thing about it, because like you never saw Cliff hit on a woman. Okay, yeah, Cliff could, you know, when it comes to Cliff talking to a woman like he's talking to Miss Himmelstein. Yeah, no, he's got game.

He looks amazing. He knows he's going to get her. All right. You know, there's like not a question that she's going to go out with him. You know, so now you get to see. You know, there's like not a question that she's going to go out with him. You know, so, but so now you get to see, you know, Cliff use his game.

Yeah. I think maybe just because we know his internal life now, his mind so much that like we get a bigger sense of him as a, as a person, honestly.

Yeah, exactly. That's not necessarily loquacious, but he has thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like this has unlocked anything for you

where you would want to write more novels, more novelizations, more novelizations of earlier works? What about the film criticism book, man? Last time we saw you, you were like, I'm going to do it. And then you wrote this. Yeah, well, I made a two-book deal, all right? That's the next one. That's the next one coming out.

And then actually, my very first girlfriend is a girl named Grace Lovelace for professorship in English literature. And so I actually sent her my just finished manuscript because I was like really kind of excited about her reading my first novel. And so she liked it. And then she said she liked it. And then we were talking and I go, well, can you tell me something? You know, what you thought? She goes, well, yeah, a little bit. It's like, okay, you're writing a film criticism book.

This seems like this is a preamble to the film criticism book. And I go, well, did you have a favorite? She goes, oh, no, I know absolutely what my favorite line is. I go, what? He goes, it's not that Truffaut's films were boring and parathetical. They are. So you're going to write it. Yeah.

No, I'm almost done with it. That's great. But any other novels? Like, did this make you, did this scratch a different creative itch for you? No, I, no, I, hopefully, I'll do, I'll, I'll do this quite, I'll, I'll do this quite a bit. All right. I can see myself.

Um, I don't know if I'm going to do every movie I've ever done. All right. But, uh, I, I can definitely see the idea of, of, uh, um, of a reservoir dogs novel that could be really cool. And then like, uh, um, original, I've got two, I've got, uh, uh, it's kind of pulpy. It's like, uh, um. I've got two. I've got it's kind of pulpy. It's like I've got a western idea and I've written about two chapters of an original western

novel. There's all this. What I kind of like to do though at some point is find a movie that's not mine and do a novelization of. Let's talk about it. What movie? I don't know.

I don't know. I haven't decided. I wouldn't say it now anyway. Would you have to love the movie to do it or would it be like? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no. Yeah, it would have to be a labor of love. Sure. But have to be like not a movie made of it.

And there has to be something that I can really go my own way but not completely up in the apple cart. And I've read enough novelizations that do that. Is there one you want to recommend here? I know people are asking you about what novelizations are good, but like, what's one that listeners of the show should seek out? Okay. Well, my absolute favorite novel, my favorite novelization writer is a guy named John Minahan. And he's written some fantastic novelizations. And even though

they were assignments, it seems like he chose judiciously which ones to do. And it seems like he chose movies that would especially make good novels. And one of the things that he did though, that completely makes them different animals is almost always, not always though, almost always, he always writes it in the first person of the lead character. Well, that's changed the story completely. When you're hearing the story now told completely from the lead, from the first person perspective of the lead character who only knows what they know. Well, that's a whole different, same story, whole different experience. Now, the one that he did that is actually one of my favorite novels of all time

is there's the James Bridges movie, September 30, 1955 with Richard Thomas. Now that's based on James Bridges' life. And it all takes place during that, that day after James Dean died, the whole movie takes place then. In fact, when it was shown on, uh, NBC television, they changed the title to 24 hours of the rebel, which is actually a better title. It's a good title. Um, okay. I did not like that movie when I saw it because I had read the novelization first. The novelization that John that John Minahan wrote, OK, takes Jimmy J's perspective. It's the first person story.

It starts three years before the movie starts. Wow. It starts with him just first coming to college. Huh. So it goes on for three years before it gets to that day. It's almost like he's even doing an East of Eden kind of thing, you know, where it's like, okay, the movie is this like last section of the book, but I'm going to give you the entire biblical James Michener version of the story all the way through. And then the movie, and it has a whole different feeling than the movie because I really, I like the movie now. Now then the movie, and it has a whole different feeling than the movie because I really, I like the movie now.

Now I know what to expect. I like the movie. And Richard Thomas is just flat out sensational in the film. But the movie, if it has a predecessor, it's sort of Summer of 42. You can tell that it,

even though the unearned tragedy that happens at the end seems to want to mirror Summer of 42. Now can tell that even though the unearned tragedy that happens at the end seems to want to mirror Summer of 42. Now, that's not in the novel at all. I mean, the tragedy is, but I mean, you don't feel Summer of 42 in the book. When I read this, when I read, and it's not even called September 30, 1950, it's called 93055, which was the original title of the movie now when i read the book like when i was you know 77 is when they came out uh um so i guess what am i 13 14 something like that all right um when i read the book it was before i had read walker per The Moviegoer. Yeah. And so later, when I did read Walker Percy's The Moviegoer, I realized how influenced John Minahan's book is to Percy's The Moviegoer. But I'm here to tell you, Minahan's book is way better.

Wow. It's way better than the movie goer. And especially the Billie Jean character, uh, the, the kind of crazy girl that's a mirror to the crazy girl in, um, uh, uh, the Walker Percy novel. She's a, a, a Billie Jean Adams in, in, in, not in the movie. Cause I don't like Lisa Blount's performance in the movie. She's just a kook. But in the book, she's my favorite crazy, mad, wild girl of literature. I mean, she's just, she's a fantastic character. And even Richard Thomas's performance brings a lot of vermicitude to the role, but they're all cartoon sketches compared to John Minahan's book. It's just fantastic.

Um, but then it just, but let me give you another example of one, another one of his books that he completely does better than the movie is. I think Peter Yates is, um, eyewitness is crap. It's just a crappy movie.

Crappy, uh, an anemic thriller. This is the William Hurt movie? Yeah. Steve Tish. Yeah. Minahan makes a humdinger of a book out of it.

Again, it's from the janitor's perspective. It's from the William Hurt character's perspective. One, William Hurt is just completely miscast in the movie because you do not buy William Hurt working as a janitor. I mean, one of the things that made him pop so much in Altered States is like, oh, here's a good-looking, dynamic, leading actor that actually looks like he may be as smart as the guy he's supposed to be playing, like one of the smartest

scientists who's ever lived. You can kind of buy William Hurt as that guy. In fact, William Hurt can't play any role where he doesn't have a Harvard PhD. So you don't buy him as this guy throwing his life away, being a nine to five janitor in an office building. But it also has that whole boring, unconvincing subplot with the Israelis who are acting like Nazis. And then the whole thing they're doing with these Russian Jews. It just, if William Hurt's miscast,

Christopher Plummer is far more miscast. And it's just a bummer. It's just a fucking bummer. Why was there a novelization of this movie? I mean, it was like a solid hit, but was it a big hit that would render? No, they didn't do it like this. They didn't do like, oh, hey, the movie is a hit.

Let's do a novelization. No, it came out day and date. Oh. No, like the book would come out two weeks before the movie. No, it was just a marketing tool. It was just like one more thing out there. And again, in the days before home video, if you liked something and you wanted to have it to own, then that's what you had. Did that change?

Because I feel like by the time I got to these kinds of books, it was like it was Gremlins. It was a movie that you knew had cultural weight. But do you know if that shifted at any point where they said, you know what, actually, let's only produce these for properties that we know have an audience? No, there was, you know, I think there was definitely a gigantic boom in the 70s. There was definitely a boom in the 70s where some of them just like did remarkably well, really, really remarkably well. Like for instance, like The Omen, David Seltzer's adaptation of The Omen, that is one of the best-selling horror novels of all time. You know, in the 70s, whenever you'd buy horror novels, like, you know, it's, you know, it starts where Salem's Lot left off. It out devils Rosemary's baby, makes the exorcist look like, whatever.

The Omen sold as much as those big hits. In fact, the Omen sold, and when it was so well written, most people assumed the Omen movie was based on that novel. Not that it was a novelization. Now, it's funny, if you read it again, it's actually kind of funny. I read it again after I wrote mine because they didn't have much time to write these things. They had a very, very short window. And so David Seltzer, you can tell in the first half of the book, he's killing it. That he runs out of time. He's killing it.

He's making the novel of his dreams. And the characters are so rich, except for Gregory Peck, because obviously he's based on the Gregory Peck idea. The characters are so richer than they are in the movie. And I like the movie, but the characters are just richer. They're just like, and he's really enjoying writing it as a novel. And then he just ran out of time. Yeah. He just completely ran out of time.

And now he just is reduced to just prosing the rest of the script. How much of this is? Oh, but let me just say one thing, though. Oh, yeah. It's like, okay, so in the... Go back to the eyewitness thing. Is, okay, in Eyewitness, his novelization for Eyewitness, it's all from his point of view.

And you don't see William Hurt. You see who the guy should be. Like, he's more like Lenny Baker in Next Stop Greenwich Village. Right. That's kind of somebody... Or like Timothy Bottoms or somebody. A guy really kind of threw his life away

did that ever occur to you writing your book were you like maybe I'm recasting in a way well that's the thing is I was going to ask it's like

there's a I feel like there is a difference like the Cliff character in particular I stopped seeing Pitt about midway through the novel oh really this is a different guy

a little bit not in a bad way at all like in a in a kind of fun imaginative way you can't help sometimes but but see these actors even when you go back and read no country, you're like, Oh, that's, that's Javier Bardem. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's okay. That's, well, that's interesting that you said that because, um, if I had written the book before I did the

movie, then the answer would be absolutely positively. Yes. No, but now, now when I'm writing cliff, I, I see, I, I see Brad Pitt,, I see Brad Pitt. But I find that really interesting that at some point, you hopped off that horse. Yeah. And you hopped on a Cliff of your own mine horse. Yeah. I guess he gets the most expanded storyline, right? We just learn so much about his past. Whereas Rick, I guess we learn a little bit about Rick's future. We learn a little bit

about certain people's future. I expected to spend more time in Italy, honestly. That was the one surprise. I thought if you were going to go deeper, you would have gone deeper there. Can we talk about movies?

Yeah. Oh, hold on. Before we get, if you're going to, does that mean officially starting off the book? Because I want to ask you a couple of questions.

No, no, no. I mean, but go ahead. What do you want to talk about? Well, I'm kind of curious. And look, this is not me. Do you want us to shit on the book right now? No. On the podcast?

We will, Quentin. No, no, no. I do not. You guys know me. You know when I talk about a film, I usually ask you, what's your favorite scene? Okay, that's what I always do. So I'm kind of curious ask you, what's your favorite scene? Okay, that's a, I always do that. So I'm kind of curious.

Do you guys have a favorite chapter? Oh, I mean. It's hard to spoil it because it's one of the last chapters is one of my favorites. It's the one of the bar. The bar in the valley. Oh, oh, oh, oh, the Drinker's Hall of Fame chapter.

Well, that's not spoiling anything. You can talk about that. Talk about it. Well, so it's at the end of the shoot and James Stacy asks Rick to go to a bar. Where is it? Is it in Glendale? Is that where they go? No, it's like the end of the shoot and james stacy asks rick to go to a bar or is in glendale is that where they go it's like san gabriel san gabriel excuse me um and they go and you see this world within a world and you see these guys that you were talking about earlier these tv actors these character actors these guys who work in westerns some musicians some notable musicians

in the bar you can say that i don't think that's spoiling anything. Well, so I think that opens a portal to a conversation that we wanted to have with you about the book, which is that there is a pretty significant singer-songwriter in the bar, and then that introduces you into the story. You don't have to be clever about it. Go ahead, just say it. It sounds like your father is a character in this book. Yeah, no, my stepfather is a piano bar musician. He's not a songwriter. He's just doing hits of the day. All right. Uh, uh, uh, he's a piano bar musician in that bar because at that time in 1969,

he was a piano bar musician in that bar, the drinkers hall of fame. Uh, and, uh, um, and I wrote it. I, I may be embellished a little bit about the, the setting of fame uh and uh um and i wrote it i i maybe embellished a little bit about the the setting of the bar and everything but i remember he took me to the bar a couple of times and um like you know he's taking because he he worked all night and so he took care of me during the day before i started school so sometimes you know he'd drive to the bar during the daytime to pick up his check or something and they'd make me a Shirley Temple or something and then I looked at all the

and I'm looking at all the posters I mean how I even knew who Martha Ray was is because like she was one of the pictures on the bar and

but so go ahead but that what's so great but yeah I make a it's two things in the scene one is it's just this incredible

dialogue and this like kinship and rivalry that is happening in real time between this guy who's rising and this guy who maybe is falling a little bit and getting more time with those two characters. And I liked in enjoying just seeing those two actors having that conversation that we never saw in the movie. The mechanics of,

of that comprehensive knowledge of everyone and everything around you that must've been the case, especially if you're going from TV to movies and working in a much more prolific nature than I think we're probably used to. And these guys know everyone. And even when they're competitive, I think there's a ton of respect for each other

because they're both doing a job in a really professional way. And you expand on some really cool parts of the movie. You kind of go into a little bit more depth, obviously, about the great escape stuff. And it's just a beautiful, beautiful scene. Yeah. The other thing about it is, I said to Chris before you came, the movie is the ultimate alternate universe movie. And it expands the idea of the alternate universe because of introducing yourself into the story and what could have been or what should have been. And I think we were trying to figure out, like, why did you write those other alternate histories into the story and what could have been or what should have been and I think we were trying to figure out like why did you

write those other alternate histories into the piece? Other alternate histories? Well, I mean, there's the film you could have directed and things like that.

Oh, yeah, well, it was just fun because, oh, yeah, I see what you mean. Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. No, it's like, well, in this world that exists, I exist.

Okay? You know, before that exists I exist okay you know before 1999 I exist anyway that could be the sequel your brutal demise I exist till at least 1999 yeah and

it's absolutely you know since I hired Jennifer Jason Leigh for Hateful Eight it's not inconceivable

that I would think Trudy Frazier was this fantastic actress and cast her in my remake of The Lady in Red and even like

when it came to her career well now you're judging Hollywood career in a world where Trudy Frazier exists so maybe she does play the Meg Tilly role in Agnes the God andy Frazier exists. So maybe she does play the Meg Tilly role

in Agnes Agad and gets nominated for an Oscar. And maybe she does play the Elizabeth McGovern role in Ordinary People and gets nominated

for an Oscar. I mean, we just love that shit. Like, that's what we talk about in our spare time. So, obviously, we enjoyed that. I also love that you specify

it's like a remake of the John Sayles script of it. So it's not necessarily like the movie necessarily. It's like a remake of the John Sayles script of it. So it's not necessarily like the movie necessarily. It's like a remake of the script. Yeah. Well, I'm a big fan. I wrote a nice review for it on the New Beverly website.

I really like Louis Teague's movie. I like Louis Teague directing a lot too. But there is an aspect. No, it wasn't about remaking the Julie Corman produced movie. It was like now taking John Sayles' script which they had three and a half weeks to do and spending

four months on it with the right kind of budget. Yeah, you know, I mean, I think the other I think that script deserves, somebody should do that. Because he said, didn't he say like this was not necessarily the. No, I mean, I think David O. Russell should do it with Jennifer Lawrence. Yeah. Should happen. No, I mean, the other parts of the, I mean, I think David O. Russell should do it with Jennifer Lawrence. Yeah.

That's what should happen. No, I mean, the other parts of the, I mean, I love the Cliff stuff of coming back from the war, Cleveland. Like the sort of going in depth into his character's history. It's like, oh man, there's so many hallways to go down here. It's funny how just in general, like Chris was saying, some people, I see Leo in every scene, but I don't necessarily see even Trudy.

I feel like Trudy is, there's even more of Trudy. She's saying even more. And we were, you know, Chris was saying like, is Trudy, is she Meg Tilly?

Is she someone else? Like, is she, who is she in this universe? Because we're always, in the same way that it's like, is Rick George Maharis or is he actually just Rick?

No, he's right. No, no. George Maharis exists in his world. No, if a character exists in his world, I mean, Ty Harden exists in his world. Now, look, when I was writing the script, I'm thinking, oh, well, he's kind of a Ty Harden type and there's parallels to George Maharis and there's parallels to Fabian to some degree. You know, these kind of different actors.

But that was way back then. I mean, one of the things that's so gratifying about the movie is Rick has become such a solid character

that people refer to him as if he existed. And they don't they're not talking about leo they it just seems as if rick is a real actor who existed back there i mean like which is probably the the greatest compliment i could ever get is he he actually owns a pop culture real estate now you did some smart things things. I mean, your Rick fucking Dalton is like, if that's a memorable line, then Rick is a real person.

You know, there's some good mathematics And then there's stuff that goes beyond your control like where now Rick pointing at the screen has become basically like

whatever is your go-to reference point. And then, but also just, you know, the time I spent with his filmography

and the fact that you actually know his, you know, you I spent with his filmography and the fact that you actually know you can start naming titles imaginary titles do you see yourself returning to these characters there's all this lore

about all the characters you've created over the years will we get a Vega Brothers movie shit like that do you see this being a place that you want to go back to in movie form

oh well I I doubt i would do the last movie would be a sequel to this uh um okay i say that um because okay believe it or not no one knows this yet all right um i've written a play version of this oh wow of the novelization no no not of the novel no no i know after i finished the script okay No one knows this yet. All right. I've written a play version of this. Oh, wow. Of the novelization. No, no, no, not of the novel. No, no, no.

After I finished the script, okay, I finished the script for the movie. Now, normally when I finish a script, we go and, you know, just start opening offices and get ready to shoot. That was not the case when I finished the script for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I sat on it for about six or seven months before I even let my agents read it because I wasn't done writing. So I finished the script before I showed it to anyone. Then I wrote a theatrical version, a play version of the story. Why? Because I wanted to write a play and I had, uh, like stuff that not in the book. I didn't, I made it, I purposely made it that I didn't put the scenes that are in the play in the book.

So it wouldn't just be, uh, um, I didn't, you know, I didn't need more material, but I wanted to exist as a play. And again, I'm able to explore stuff that's not in the piece. That is the one that deals with Italy. The play deals with Italy. And then I wrote five episodes about it. Then, once I was done with all of that, then I let my agents read

the script, and then we started the whole process of making the movie. So will you stage the play? That's the idea. When I finish the... I mean we'll see what happens but the the my plan is to do this book i just did this then finish the the cinema book and then uh then the next thing on the list is to start thinking about the play so are you doing that because you're not ready to start thinking about the last movie oh I'm not gonna think about the last movie for a while I'm just not

I'm doing other things right now that's cool I mean it sucks for us because we make good movies but just to but just to give you just a

a hint of the play is the whole second act of the play is Rick and Marvin the whole second act of the play is Rick and Marvin

having having dinner with Sergio Cabucci and Nora Cabucci at their favorite Japanese restaurant in Rome. Wow. You kind of tip towards that. Oh, okay. There's a reference to it or something? I think he's in town in Rome. Wow. You kind of, you tip towards that. Oh, there's a reference to it.

Yeah. Yeah. He's in, I think he's in town in LA. Yeah. Oh, he's in town. And like,

yeah, in the play, it's in Rome. Okay. In the play, it's in Rome. And it's, you know,

and it's like, Rick doesn't have the part. It's like, this is going to, depending on how this dinner goes, means whether or not Rick is going to be Nebraska Jim or not. So what you just described to us is four to five

reinterpretations of this world that you built. It was much talked about at the time of the release of the movie that this is a very, it's an unusually emotional and certainly nostalgic

and even sentimental movie, especially by your standards. Do you not want to leave it because you like being in that place? How much of working on all these projects is about staying inside of this universe? Well, I think you could say that if post making the movie and going around the world, then all these things started happening.

And I was going back to blank pieces of paper and creating it. The fact that I did it all before I even like let anyone even read the script, both to what you're saying, but then. Right. Right. Was there anything, have you ever had an experience like this where you have had like sort of multiple interpretations or multiple formats for the same story while you were working on a script well yeah no i mean the thing of what's what's interesting about this i mean the key to what i just said is the fact that i did it

before i did the movie because every movie i fucking do i think i'm gonna make a franchise i'm not a franchise like you think about a franchise but just i it's i'm gonna have a whole little cottage industry of stuff. These different expansions. Yes, exactly. Like, you know, the entire time when I was like doing Kill Bill, I thought, OK, I'll do three Kill Bill movies, one every 10 years. And, you know, Uma will be 10 years older with each new one. But then also I'll do an anime movie that follows this aspect of the bride when she was with the Deadly Viper Association, Assassination Squad.

And then I'll do a whole animation movie that will be the origin of Bill and his three godfathers, Hattori Hanzo and Pai Mei and Esteban Vejejo. Okay, well, fucking killed myself on Kill Bill went around the world. I don't want to fucking think about that shit anymore that's why I ask that that is specifically why I ask that because I feel like and Chris feel free

to disagree with me but I have been tantalized by versions by you in interviews saying he kicks good games yes it's time for me to also

expand my universe by doing X, Y, and Z and look forward to this thing I'll be doing in the future and then you get to the end of your cycle I don't want to do it I'm sick to death of this shit you would get to the end of your cycle and you're like, I don't want to do it. It's like, yeah, yeah, it's all got to be new stuff.

I'm sick to death of this shit. You would have to give up a degree of like creative control. You'd have to do like late period Tom Clancy where it was like Tom Clancy presents

and then it would be like three writers at the bottom of the book. Do you want to talk about movies now? Do you have any more questions about the book that we can answer for you

that you wrote? Can I ask you about the packaging of it? Yeah. Can I ask you about the packaging of it? Yeah. Can I ask you? Because I love it. First of all, Sean and I were both

remarking on how we need to get more mass market paperbacks in our lives. We just miss paperbacks. Because they're just too- Well, we're doing our best to bring it.

Apparently, it's doing good. So it's like- It should be a revolution. But also, it was an interesting thing because this was the way I wanted to do it because I didn't want it

to be an artistic meditation on a not-movie novelization. So I wanted it to be a legit thing. And we're going to later come out with a hardback version. I'll have some more stuff in it. But I didn't want a publisher that like, Oh, fuck, he's making me do this. Okay, I want it. So, okay, we'll fucking do it.

All right. I wanted somebody to just see that it was a neat idea. It's worth doing because it's fucking cool. Yeah. And it's groovy. And they totally got it. I mean, it's all of the little details. Obviously, it's the ads in the back.

It's the way that the pictures are framed on the cover. But just the actual physical act of holding a book with one hand in bed is something I miss. I feel like as a culture, we've lost that. Yeah. Yeah. No, I definitely have like way too many books where I'm just like it and my phone might at any given point fall on my face. So, yeah. Well, hey, before we go, is there anything about the book you guys didn't care for you want to bring up?

That doesn't mean flagellate me alive, but if there's something you had a question about. Let me think about this so I have a good response. How about the fact that you were wrong about your theory about Bruce Lee? Or Cliff. It was a theory about Cliff. My theory that he's imagining the way that you're imagining? You were absolutely completely wrong. Here's why I'm not wrong, Quentin.

I don't care what you say. Because this is all from Cliff's perspective. We're still in Cliff's mind. That's right. And Cliff is remembering a story the way that he wants to remember it. No, that's told from the novelistic narrator's point of view. He's omniscient. He is omniscient up to 99, man.

You can tell you every World Series winner up to 99. I stand by my theory. Okay, okay, okay. I think that's actually one of the interesting things about the book is, I guess I could safely say I don't like as much knowing more about something I love. That's a complication to a story. You know, and I think that that's an interesting aspect

of novelizations in general, right? Like a lot of times, the stories turn left or turn right and they're not the same as the movie and it's entertaining and fun, but I also have,

I have, as you know, I have very strong attachment to the film. Right. So, sometimes when you're like, actually,

it ain't that way. Yeah, you know, hey man, this is my movie. I thought, because you know how when you fall in love

with a book and if you see a movie that doesn't match your kind of conception of it, you're like, God damn it, why'd they cast that guy? This is the inverse. And now it's the inverse where when you get to Business Bob, for instance, I'm like, that's not Scoot. That's your man Scoot, though.

That's why. It's Bruce Dern. No, it literally is Bruce Dern. Well, Scoot was playing Bruce Dern as hard as he could. No, I described him differently. Yeah, yeah. well Skip was playing Bruce Dern as hard as he could no I I described him differently yeah yeah

but I I mean you know obviously we tore through the book we love the book not surprising what do you what movies are you watching right now

every once in a while I hear from you and you're like I watched this it sucked or it was great yeah what are you watching right now

well hardly anything new alright it's like it's all it's older stuff actually I was just What are you watching right now? Well, hardly anything new, all right? It's older stuff. Actually, I was just with a buddy of mine last night, and we watched some back at home with my theater again. We watched my I.B. Technicolor print of the Hindenburg.

Ooh. It was fucking cool. We had a great time with it. And we always kill it in New Beverly when we show Inglourious Basterds and the Hindenburg. Ooh. It was fucking cool. We had a great time with it. And like, we always kill it in new Beverly when we show inglorious bastards in the Hindenburg together, because they're both world war two speculation. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I went on a, uh, you know, I went on a few different, really interesting,

uh, uh, uh, kicks over the last year, but, uh, well, especially,

um, I was just, I just finished a James Bridges kick. I was on a James Bridges kick. Can you contextualize him for listeners? Because I feel like people know Urban Cowboy, but they don't necessarily know the scope of his career.

Well, he's a very interesting writer. He started writing for Alfred Hitchcock Presents episodes. And he wrote a couple of scripts, Colossus, The Forbidden Project, and Appaloosa. And he became a writer-director in 1970. First movie was The Babymaker with Barbara Hershey. And he became a very interesting writer-director. And one thing that's also very, very interesting about him is he was a gay man living completely out in Hollywood. As a matter of fact, his like longtime companion for like 40 years was Jack Larson, who was Jimmy Olsen on the Superman TV show. And I mean, I mean, their relationship is actually one of the models of Hollywood.

They were just really lovely, lovely, lovely people. I mean, I've never met them, but from what I, everything I've heard. But the thing about it was he did his first movie,

which is a really, which is a really good movie, but more of a time capsule kind of a movie. But then his next movie was the paper chase. And that really kind of set him up as an, as, as an interesting individual filmmaker. And that started his relationship with Gordon Willis. And, um, and James Bridges was just, um, he was, he, he had a very humanistic touch. He, uh, um, uh, he was just, he was an extremely good writer and, and he was really good with actors. He was really good working with actors and he didn't really at the, in the first

half of his career, he didn't really have that much of a visual situation. Uh, I mean, uh, a visual vocabulary, but Gordon Willis did. And so Gordon Willis would frame the shots. Gordon Willis would, would, would do all that for paper chase for paper chase. But then little by little by little that started changing. And, um, by the time he gets to the eighties and he does, uh, you know, he kind of, he starts, you can see him exploring his own visual, um, uh, work with, uh, China syndrome. You can tell he's shooting that now, and you can tell he's shooting urban cowboy. And the thing about it was after being this kind of personal filmmaker, he was offered the China syndrome. And that actually ended up being his first big commercial hit.

And then he's then he because of that success, he does urban cowboy and that becomes another big success for him. But then with his movie, Mike's Murder and Perfect, then he gets a whole new style and he almost starts becoming this Antonioni-like guy, this Antonioni-like imagery of Los Angeles. And he never used that style before and he really only used it in those two movies.

But there's a... And I've never... I've never liked any Antonioni movie except for Zabriskie Point but I do like people who are influenced by Antonioni

because that's a really neat side when you pull it off and attach it to something of pop culture or something about a character I can give a damn about then it becomes actually vivid

and I think he has and he has that in there and there's a really interesting book that came out called The Films of James Bridges by a guy

Stephen last name with a T that's a very charming book he's one of those he's very as opposed to being a snotty film critic he's very effusive

and he throws the M word around a lot which I actually kind of like when critics like throws the M word around a lot, which I actually kind of like when critics like throw the M word. Is that masterpiece? Yeah, masterpiece. Yeah. Especially some of the weird things that he doesn't even go into detail. He just mentions it on the off, you know.

Well, sort of like Otto Preminger's masterpiece, Such Good Friends. It's reminiscent to Jerry Lewis's masterpiece, Hardly Working. We're just swimming in masterpieces. I like Such Good Friends for what it's reminiscent to Jerry Lewis's masterpiece Hardly Working we're just swimming in masterpieces I like such good friends for what it's worth no but it's just like

funny to hear him drop masterpieces how do you decide to say it's James Bridges time because he's a perfect example of a filmmaker

as much as we celebrate the 70s I don't he just does not have much of a reputation at all these days I I mean, at least I'm in the sort of broader consciousness of movies. So when you're like, it's time for me to dig into this man's filmography, what inspires that? It's usually one moment or one film. Okay,

now in this case, it was September 30, 1955, because like I said, when I read the book, well, one, the book came out in 77 when the movie was supposed to come out, but the movie didn't come out until 79. And when it came out, when Universal did finally release it in Los Angeles, it didn't get released in Los Angeles, but when it did, it was on the lower half

of Drive-Ins and in third-run houses with Michael Douglas' Running running so it was just a second secondary feature well i ran to the theater so i could finally see the movie to my favorite novelization and when i realized it's only dealing with the last third of the novel i was so fucking pissed but then this year i dug out the book again. I, I, I'd read it about three different times over the course of my life. And then I decided to, when I started thinking about doing this,

I decided to read it again. I go, yeah, it's just as great as I remember. And then I thought, you know, a lot of time has passed now that I know what to expect. Let me watch the movie again.

And, and I really liked James Bridges. So let me, and it's his fucking life. Let me give it another shot. And now knowing what to expect, I had much more appreciation for it. In fact, I found

myself a little haunted by it. And I made my wife sit down and watch it about three days later. And she actually liked, she has a crush on Richard Thomas, not from the Waltons, but from the Americans. Oh yeah. Yeah. And so I was happy to show her something when Richard Thomas was young and cute. All right. Well, she thinks he's old and cute. All right. You know,

but something when she was young and cute and, uh, did it shatter her crush to see him in the two different times? No, not at all. As a matter of fact, I mean, she's got a poster on the wall now. I know you have no, no, she doesn't have that, but I don't know if you've ever seen the movie, but he, he has just an amazing monologue at the end of the film, uh, the scene in the hotel and the hospital room. And like,

Daniela was just like, Oh my God, he is. That was, that was sensational. That was sensational acting. And so she was, she,

she really, she ended up really really liking uh the movie so that got me into re-looking at his stuff and in doing that i heard about the book and that and that taught me a whole lot about uh james bridge's life that i didn't know that was really fantastic so then now i'm now it was just so much fun to watch the china syndrome again which is far better than I remember it. Yeah, it's really good. But I remember it good.

But it's one of those, I mean, I remember seeing that the Friday it opened and how the Wilford Brindley scene at the end, I mean, it brought the house down. It brought the house down, you know. And then back when we didn't know who William Wilford Brindley was, but you knew who he was after the China syndrome. Right. He still looked 50 years old at that time. Yeah. He looked 70. But then it was like, but, you know, and then it was so much fun to watch Perfect again because I've always really a big, big fan of Perfect.

It was just fun to go through the filmography again. So how does that happen? That's an idea of how it happens. But it also happens in also. So, OK, that's a filmmaker. So That's an idea of how it happens, but it also happens in also, uh, so, okay, that's a filmmaker. So that's easy enough to say about a filmmaker, but then all of a sudden I'll get on a Darren McGavin kick or a William Shatner kick. Well, okay. Well, what does a William Shatner kick look like?

Well, I'll tell you exactly what a William Shatner kick look like. It looks like, it looks like, okay, after William Shatner did Star Trek, during that decade in the 70s when he's just doing TV movies

and guesting on Petrocelli or Canon or Maddox or the man from, not the man from Uncle, but Mission Impossible. So that's me watching.

Adultinesque period for him. Yes. Exactly. Do you just, do you have tapes of that stuff? Do you watch it on YouTube? Well, it's like, uh, what I would do is, uh, uh, uh, rarely I watch them on YouTube, but I can, I have no problem using YouTube. One of the better movie streaming services out there. All right. Um, but on some of them, I might have, uh, uh, uh, a box set of the stuff, but actually what I would do is I would go to Eddie Brands. All right. And go in their massive TV section. And I have the entire list of episodes,

uh, that, that William Shatner did. I, uh, from the seventies. And I, I know what season for whatever show it is.

And I know the name of the episode. And I would go through and I would pick up like at least half of them. They have them, you know, and I would, I'd get them and okay. Okay. Well, I guess I will order the seventh, seventh season of a mission impossible so I can get that William Shatner episode, you know, and then, um, and then I watch them all. And also what's actually kind of fun about that is now, because I have a reason to watch

all these show to see the William Shatner episode, I get to rewatch all these shows without watching a bunch of them. No, but I get to watch Mannix again, all right, with a purpose. I get to watch The Magician, Bill Bixby's The Magician again with a purpose and all those like cool TV movies that he did.

And I did the same thing when I was shooting this. I did the same thing with Darren McGavin. I was on a big Darren McGavin kick. Now, the thing is, it's fun when I do it on a movie. I can get like six other people on the movie roped into it. So we're all watching Darren McGavin. We're all watching Darren McGavin things.

And we're trading back and forth the things that we got and we're talking about. This is why I keep asking Chris to come on The Big Picture because I'm like, just fucking watch these movies with me, man. I need somebody to watch these movies with.

That's awesome. Do you find that it's often dictated by the project you're working on and then you go on Jags where you're like, I'm just going through

World War II stuff or I'm just going through... Well, Darren McGavin doesn't really have a whole lot to do. Sure. Ever been existing in this time period

and everything. I think before when i was dealing with more genre oriented stuff yeah i'm watching definitely more spaghetti westerns and stuff when i'm doing and definitely watching more kung fu stuff when i was doing kill bill or something but uh no it's random it's just oh i really fucking dig darren mcgavin oh and and uh uh so let me watch some of his different movies. And oh, yeah, I want to see him be the bad guy on Man From U.N.C.L.E. I want to see him be the bad guy in Cades County. I want to see him be his character on this Gunsmoke or that Gunsmoke.

I got the sense when we did rewatchables that you watch contemporary stuff in bursts. Maybe that's wrong, but you're like, okay, I'm going to catch up with whatever this was or whatever you guys, people have been talking about or whatever at the end of the year'm going to catch up with whatever this was or whatever you guys people have been talking about or whatever at the end of the year let me catch up is that has that stayed

the case? well I just don't I just pretend like last year didn't happen right it just doesn't it just doesn't exist it just didn't happen

just because everything was moved yeah it's just yeah it's just vanishing point yeah it's all vanishing point to me I don't just

you know just rip rip that year off the movie calendar yeah all right we could have a good one this year fingers crossed we could have a good one yeah but um but like i mean i'm the only movie that i would have the only well okay if it wasn't netflix i would have paid and see and i would have paid to see manc, all right, if it wasn't a Netflix movie. But I think, but the only movie that came out last year, well, I guess two,

all right, the only two movies that came out last year that I would have paid to see in a movie theater was that Freaky Friday the 13th movie with Vince Vaughn

and I would have paid to see the Russell Crowe. Oh, Unhinged. Yeah, yeah. Crazy fucking.

You could have seen it in a theater. It did open. Wasn't that like the first movie like late last summer that they were likehinged. Yeah, yeah. Crazy fucking. You could have seen it in a theater. It did open. Wasn't that like the first movie like late last summer? It played in theaters. It's back. Arizona.

Very fun movie. Yeah, yeah. I would, those are two movies I generally would have paid to see. I was thinking about this while reading the book and obviously we mentioned

that there's an expansion of the Lancer story and you do, it is very much like a Leonard-esque Western but also you have so much admiration

not just understanding you could see that even in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood but admiration for these TV shows and even these shows like Mannix that you're talking about

that like there's no cottage industry of nostalgia around that stuff in fact that stuff even more so than movie culture is gone like it just

there's I don't even know how I wouldn't even know where to start to find some of it. Some of it winds up like at its studio homes, like Columbo's on Peacock, but it's not like they don't have like a real classic. Well,

they do have a classic section, but it's not like the stuff. It's not the same. It's not kind of like, it's not marketed the same way. And you're obviously a, well, I think,

I think it's, I think that's changed in the last 10 years. I think, I think the generation i think that's changed in the last 10 years i think i think the generation of people who appreciated that stuff and and knew about that stuff and talk about that stuff is you know we've just gone eight eight years past them yeah if that makes any sense yeah you know i mean i'm just to give you an example. Okay, just, you know, it's like, if the movie came out eight years earlier, well, the Variety Review would have been drastically different because it would have been Todd McCarthy writing the review

and he would have known every name mentioned in the movie. He would have known every show. He would have known what every movie that Rick supposedly did, what that was actually supposed to be. And there would have just been this thing, you know,

just, you know, because he spent his whole life knowing this stuff. Is that necessarily better? Well, and it comes to a piece like this, yeah. But I can say for myself, I don't know every reference.

In fact, one of the things I love about your movies and the book is, what is that? I have to go explore that. I've been exposed to something I didn't know before. Well, you know what? In the case of a variety review, that's the first thing coming out. Yeah,

it actually kind of is pretty good that, like, somebody who knows what the fuck you're talking about is conversant with what I'm talking about. The movie might only be for him. But he would get it. Right, right. That makes sense.

Elvis Mitchell is going to get every fucking reference that's mentioned. He's going to know every name. That opens an interesting portal to a conversation about how comfortable you are then with people who don't get the stuff watching your movies. And then what that means for you, especially as you get older as a filmmaker. Oh, well, no, I don't mind talking over the average. I don't, you know, look, obviously I don't mind talking over people's head. No, if it only works,

if it only works if you know all this stuff, then ultimately it doesn't work. You know? But look, when I was 12 and I'm reading Andrew Sarris' American Cinema for the first time, yeah, he's mentioning a whole lot of shit I don't know. Yeah. And he's mentioning a whole lot of names I don't know. And he's using a lot of expressions of directorial expression or lack of it that is foreign to me. I don't know what those things mean. But I'm reading a film expert.

I'm expecting him to talk over my head. And he's making me want to stand on my tippy toes. And maybe I don't understand it now, but now those words are in my head. And now this thought process is in my head. And it makes me stand a little taller. And, um, and the thing about it is what you need to know,

either in the book or in the movie is no, you don't have to know all this stuff, but you need to know, I know all this stuff. Right. And that all this stuff is, is, is pretty damn authentic.

Now, if you actually know how truly authentic it is, then now you're impressed in a whole different way. Right. Do you want to log any of your complaints about the rewatchables

here on the podcast? You have an open forum if you like. You could be the, you're the ombudsman, the public editor. Okay, well, I feel like you're licking your chops right now.

Yeah, okay. Well, the, again, it all falls down to Bill Simmons. All right. Uncle Bill. It all falls down to Uncle Bill. All right. the temerity to suggest that somebody else other than William Peterson

could ever hope to play Will Graham is unfathomable. One of the greatest literary cops of all time and William Peterson plays him so great that

it almost derails his career because you can't imagine him playing anything but you just want to see him play Will Graham again and again and again and again then to pick, what's the guy, Sanducci or whatever his name is,

in Thief? The cop, the guy who is the real thief. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's that guy's name again? I think it is Sanducci. It's Sanducci. To say, well, maybe the guy from Breaking Bad

could have been good in that part. Are you fucking kidding me? This guy, did you not watch Crime Story, you fucking asshole? This guy is a cornerstone to the Michael Mann filmography. You see, what you don't understand is where you're potting it now. No, I don't want to see some fucking TV actor

play that part that's good that's very good I have no notes I mean it is the whole conceit of that section is recasting

but I do think I definitely recasting couch has some has some detractors no you you actually fought for it

it's like no I think he should get standout character actor status. Yeah. After Bill said, well, wouldn't it be fun to... Well, the movie isn't as good if he doesn't exist.

He's literally there as the on-set consultant and he's super entertaining. When he pulls him over the first time, it's hilarious. No, him sticking his head in the fucking window

is just hysterical. But again, the good part about The Rearchables as far as that was concerned, was without even having to watch. I actually saw Thief sometime in this last year again. But the good part about The Rewatchables was actually just making me go through all of Robert Prosky's dialogue again in my mind. The best. You know, and it's just, I mean, I actually think

he does the best job of Michael Mann's dialogue of any actor who's ever said it. I think he is the key. Yeah. He's the key to when it comes to like the best of Michael Mann's dialogue.

Up above Farina. Well, I don't think, I think Dennis Farina does a terrific job, but I don't think he necessarily does the greatest, you know, I don't think his tongue was necessarily

made to say Michael Mann yeah Protsky has that Chicago cadence but Protsky just spent 40 years in regional theater on stage

so he knows theatrical dialogue he knows how to say stuff but they you know him and Dustin Hoffman

were in their 20s working together in regional theater at first. And they later asked Dustin Hoffman about like, well, what's it like having this magnificent career and work with all these wonderful people and everything? Well, you know, when I think about it like this, well, yeah, obviously it's great. And I became rich and I became famous and I worked with, did some movies. And yeah, that's really great. But then I look at somebody like Robert Protsky, who I started off with in regional theater. Now, he now he didn't make his first movie until like three quarters into his career. And while I was doing all these movies, he was just doing one theatrical play after another, after another in regional theater for 40 years.

I go, well, what's the difference between you two? He had better authors. But then I was just thinking about the other day, I was just walking down the street and all of a sudden Protsky's line from Thief came to me. It's not the kids fault, his mother's an asshole. What's the best thing you watched for the first time over the last year? Oh, yeah.

I know. Oh, it's got such a shitty title too. Give me an actor. I'll help you out. No, I can't because nobody famous. So he'd check on your part to be like, I got this, Quentin, just give me an actor. To Quentin, especially, yes. It's not called Avenged.

That's the one with that British kickboxing guy. It's like Revenged. Oh, Avenged. Avenged. It's called Avenged. But it actually had a different title, like Savaged or something like that originally. It's a rape revenge movie.

Big fan of the genre. And it is one of the most absolutely fucking enjoyable revenge movies I've seen in a while. It's- When's it from? It's from about four years ago, I think. Oh. Like, you know, i think maybe five american film

yes american film i'm spacing on the name of the director but i actually liked it so much i looked at another film he directed and that was pretty good too but avenge was fucking amazing and um it's about this um pretty gal who is um she's a mute because she doesn't talk and she can, she can hear, she can hear, but she does, she, she doesn't speak. And does she hear, I can't remember, but she doesn't talk anyway. She's she's going to go meet her boyfriend and she's driving cross country, like from California to New York or something. And when she gets into like the Arizona area,

she sees these two Indian guys being murdered by these fucking disgusting white rednecks. And they take her, they grab her, and they tie her up on a bed with barbed wire. They all rape her. And then they fucking kill her. Then they go out and bury her in the desert. And, uh,

an India, a guy who's in, you know, sort of an Indian medicine man in the area, uh, comes across her grave. And it turns out she's still like barely alive, but she's just a little bit alive.

So he takes her, he digs her up and takes her to his place. But his place is actually, he lives on a place that used to be like the Apache Indian burial ground. And so he puts her in the ground and does a shaman thing on her. And what happens is there's a great Apache chief from 300 years ago who was screwed over by the white men who just happened to be the descendants. These rednecks happened to be their descendants. And so he brings her spirit up and the spirit of this Indian warlord, whose spirit is angry, has never never left hanging around this thing. Join together and come into her.

Now, she's dead. So her body is rotting away. But now, but she has her consciousness. And now filled with this powerful Indian warrior, she goes off to get revenge. Wow. And it is so much fun. I don't know how I've never heard of it. Four years ago.

It is four to six. It's a fucking blast. And you can't, what you, you're shocked at how rough it is in the first half hour, which needs to happen in a rape revenge movie. But then you get over that.

And again, just give nothing but props to the actress that like, you know, committed, who saw, oh, this is a cool movie. And she committed to it. She committed to it. She's wonderful in it. But then it never gets ridiculous, but it gets like, oh my God, kind of laughing.

You're not laughing. You're like, oh my God. And so the first guy she gets, you realize where the movie's going to go, is she reaches in and just yanks his intestines out. And it seems like it's a trauma kind of thing, but it actually works. But now you know where they're going to go

from this point on. And then the asshole bad guys, they're terrific, which is usually where these movies fall apart is the goons they hire to play the bad guys.

And so I watched it by myself, thought it was fantastic, called up Elvis Mitchell. I go, did you see this? And he goes,

oh yeah, I saw that on Fantastic Fest about five years ago under a different title. But then I just watched it recently with my Israeli filmmaker friend, Novot de Papashado. And then we were hooting and hollering and laughing and cheering her on. And that was the second time I saw it. And I was shocked at how much I enjoyed it the second time watching it with somebody else. Amazing recommendation. Yeah.

I don't know how the hell I have not heard of this movie. I don't know what I expected you to say, but it was definitely not that. That's fucking awesome. Well, it's one of those things, okay, if you have Apple TV and you watch a rape revenge movie, well, you're going to see about nine other rape revenge movies. If you like that. Yeah. Is that how you got hip to it?

You just saw it recommended in that way? Yeah, I don't think it was, but I saw it was something, some action-y kind of thing, like Miss 45 or something. And then I saw. Got it. So what now? What are you doing now? You're back in the States. What's your life like now?

Oh, well, I've got a nice little son. And he's amazing. We actually watched our first film together. Oh, man. What was that experience like? He's 15 months. Did you choose this? Well. You cur that experience like? He's 15 months. Did you choose this?

Well. You curate this experience? No, it was. I wouldn't say it was a curated experience. All right. He watches, you know, he doesn't. Was it Avenged? He doesn't.

No, it wasn't Avenged. It wasn't Avenged. I'll wait till four. He's horrible. So he watches TV especially there's this show called Sam the Fireman that he really really likes and he doesn't talk yet but he watches the show

it's about 15 minutes long he knows when it starts because he knows the promo for it and he knows when the closing credits that is officially over and he sits there and he watches it he really likes it um and so uh you know there's the things that he digs and so i thought oh looking at a thing i go oh well he might like the minions or something so i i thought it was like a minions cartoon and about i turn it on and i realized i just accidentally turned on despicable me part two.

Okay. And I go, well, the credits are playing and he seems to be listening to the music and looking at it. So, okay, well, okay, let's watch Despicable Me two. And, um, so we were sitting on the couch together and he's watching it and he's just totally like, you know, watching it and really taking it in. And I don't think I'm projecting this on him. I think this is real. I could see in his face, because he doesn't sit there and watch the shows and laugh or anything like that. He just kind of, his mouth kind of drops open and he just kind of seems mesmerized.

That's me when I watch it. Yeah. I think he could tell that this was made at a much higher quality than the things that he's used to watching. That just, you know, the action scenes and the sound and the characters. I mean, it was just more sophisticated. It was just better. It's just better than what he's used to seeing. I don't think that's a transference on him. I think he was noticing, wow, this is something. Is there going to be a lot of Minions essays in your—

I don't know. I'm not so sure. But the thing about it, though, is, look, a 15 a 15 month old kid is not going to have much of an attention span. So we watched it for about 25 minutes, which is a lot. Now, he didn't just sit next to me on the couch the entire 25 to 30 minutes at a certain point, but past the 15 minute mark, past his normal time, he climbed off the couch and walked over to the toy box, but you can still

see the TV from the toy box. So he was still kind of connected to what was going on. And he picked up a couple of toys, but then he stopped and watched the TV from the toy box area, holding the toys. Then he walked behind the couch, but then he's like, what's still watching it from behind the couch. So we got to about the 25 minute, 30 minute Mark before I lost him. And so then like about two days later, I moved the movie up, uh, back about five minutes and we watched it for about another 15 or 20 minutes then. And then a couple of days later we were together again. And I, I, I moved the movie back another five minutes and then we watched it for another 15 or 20 minutes then. And then a couple of days later, we were together again. And I, I, I moved the movie back another five minutes and then we watched it for another 15 or 20 minutes then until we eventually watched the whole movie. It's like a Rocky training montage, you know,

you're teaching him. I didn't want to just show him like 25 minutes. I wanted to actually officially now, this is his first movie. I will never, ever forget the first movie he watched from beginning to end is Despicable Me 2. Is it really important to you that he is a cinephile? No. Do you even have any expectation that he will be by the time? I would have to assume he's not going to be.

Yeah. That sucks. I hate that you said that. Well, no. I mean, well, I would be happy if he loves movies. My friend Roger's daughter is really into one of her favorite movies is Ralph Baschke's Coonskin

what are your favorite daughter one of her favorite movies is fucking Coonskin holy wow you fucking lucked out that is amazing you're a great dad I mean I imagine, I imagine. But I have to imagine, though, that if I—I have to imagine that—well, I'm prepared.

I'm prepared that, you know, that my son will not be a cinephile, that he'll like cars or he'll like baseball or he'll like astronomy or he'll like something else. And that like astronomy, or he'll like something else. And that'll give me an avenue to like that too. That's a good way of looking at it. That is nice. What other questions do you have about Quentin's son? I'm just, I'm actually, I just, I'm glad you didn't start him off with like something really like traumatic B-movie.

That was like, he won't remember this anyway. So we'll just watch I spit on your grave. so what next, what are you going to do? Are you, you're going to be promoting the book and then. Yeah. So I'm a, yeah, well, I'm, uh, I'm promoting the book right now and I'll, I'll be here through, um, uh, I'm, I'm back for a while. I'm back for a while. I guess this is a, uh, probably a state secret, but would you do something like what you did with Netflix for once? Would you do something where you expanded on that and divided it in a different way? I think more than likely what I would probably do now because the book's coming out. I think what I would probably do, and we've had a conversation, but I wanted to wait for the book to come out um I think what I

would more more than likely do is just cut together a version of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood if I wasn't worried about time yeah and so it's not about trying to stretch it out to episodes or cutting it into episode form I think it was just okay if uh and probably so that doesn't mean I'm going to use everything i ever shot but the idea though okay what's the best version of the movie if i was not worried about time did you have one of those like a three and a half hour assembly that you thought was good oh yeah yeah uh-huh and but i knew that would never never last okay but now but it would be different now having lived through the experience yeah and so i put it together if i wasn't worried about time however

that would be like a new york, New York or something like that. And then we'd probably give it a theatrical release, you know, in a boutique. One last thing about the book. Have Leo or Brad or Margo read the book? Not yet. Not yet. I'm just getting ready to sign to all the actors, especially that appear in the book, like Tim, you know, Dakota and everything. I'm just reading.

I just got my box of books, so I'm just ready to start signing it and sending it to them. Does their feelings about the character and the way that you may have reshaped or rewritten the character, what does that mean to you? It would be interesting if Brad Pitt read the book

and was like, huh, that's not the guy I thought I was playing or something. I think it's more like, well, Jesus fucking Christ, how come you gave him all this good season, all this great dialogue in the fucking book?

Where the fuck is that in the movie? You might say that. Oh, no, Leo's going to say, whoa, oh, oh, you give me the great Three Georges fucking monologue in Drinker's Hall of Fame?

What about the fucking movie, man? Thanks a lot. Timothy Oliphant, the same thing. Timothy Oliphant is going to just be like, what the fuck? I'm glad you took such care of James Stacy in the fucking book. I fell for him reading the novel. I fell for Tim. The only person who comes out

is Scoot comes out and is just like, glad I made it. Because otherwise... What else? Anything else for Quentin? Should we let him go? I mean, I have thousands of questions for Quentin Tarantino.

Be so generous with your time. No, this is fun. I have... Okay, go ahead. I'm so... I kind of do... I would like to ask you a little bit more about the sort of,

let's just do a mulligan on 2020. And you were a theater owner. I mean, are you feeling like things are going to come back? Do you think that there will be a long-term societal change in our relationship to go into movie theaters? I mean, well, I, um, I don't know. Yeah. Okay. I, I, I don't know. And I think it remains to be seen. Um, I know,

I do think that when I made Once Upon a Time in Hollywood in 2019 that I feel a bit like a bird that flew out of the house through the windowsill just as the window

fucking slammed shut absolutely and almost got my tail feathers caught your timing was impeccable a summer movie ahead of that

I mean it was fortunate we were still talking about that movie we did a live rewatchables at Sunday caught. Your timing was impeccable. A summer movie ahead of that. I mean, it was fortunate. We were still talking about that movie. We did a live rewatchables at Sundance in January 2020.

And that was the last thing that we did, basically. And then like, I mean, like Jesus Christ, I mean, 1917 was like

the last man fucking stand, the last man to get out the goddamn window. Because even though Invisible Man did good, when everything fell down, then it was immediately streaming.

Yes. So that doesn't count. It had its lifespan chopped in half. Absolutely. So it's easy to say that metaphor that I just used about flying in through the window gets shut. But now let's look at it in a real kind of way. Okay. Seems like a long time ago now.

Once Upon a Time in Hollywood made $346 million. A movie like this made $346 million. And that's money that only deals with asses in seats. That's all theatrical ticket sales. There's no streaming involved.

There's no subsidiary revenue attached to that. That is simply asses in seats. I think it's going to be a while before a movie can do that only by theatrical ticket sales. And will that ever happen again? I do not know. I think that remains to be seen. This has been a topic of conversation for 15 years, but even at the time before the pandemic,

the movie was a small miracle because there's just not a lot of original stories obviously being told on the big screen, especially not ones that get to open on 3,000 screens and make $346 million. Do you think that this confirms like the stratification where it is franchise movies over here and then everything else is streaming? Do you think that that is the direction

that things are going to go? Well, since we flew in the face of that, you know, and did well with a kind of a plotless movie, it shows that if you make something people want to see, they'll go see it. Now, why do they want to see this?

Well, maybe they like me. Maybe they like the actors. Maybe they like the milieu. Maybe they like a lot of different things. Well, that's how all movies operate anyway. I'll push back on your theory for just one aspect of that. And I might be completely wrong on this. But, you know, maybe the franchise movies might start looking like TV shows.

I mean, I kind of feel like this new Fast and Furious might as well be a damn TV show. You know, it's like, do I need to run out to see that immediately that's a that's actually a really really interesting question because that is one of the things that movie culture did have for 20 years was like you gotta go see this thing now and we've even i'm more inclined to see the sparks movie at the theaters yeah past nine i think also like the technology of what they can do in a manhattan beach studio is catching up with the technology of what they can do in a Manhattan Beach studio is catching up with the technology of what they can do on a blockbuster movie, right? Like what they can do when they're making Mandalorian is pretty close to what they're

doing when they make a Star Wars movie. And now it might sound bigger when you go see it in a movie theater. Well, okay. But I'll push back to that in one aspect of, you know, like you could say well you know quentin you know using the book as an example okay you look quentin uh uh you could have done this as a mini series and you could have like taken like four or five hours you know to do it and you could everything could have been in here and you could have done everything. Okay. Well, here's the deal. Okay. Forget about, won't have Brad Pitt and Leonardo DiCaprio starring in my TV series. All right. Um, but okay. So say even, and this is what you have to look at when you look at the difference between

movies and TV, because the thing is with TV series, yes, it is kind of cool that they get to do much more material. That is a thing. That is a thing. And that's neat. However, okay, so even if I had the same budget as I had to make my TV series that I had as the movie, that's a $95 million budget. Well now, but that's $95 million and now having to be spread over six or seven hours as opposed to three hours, which is what I'm more or less shooting for. So that means, yeah, what I had two weeks to do here for a cinematic set piece. No, I have like four days. Right. And so, yeah, if it's just people talking to each other, well, yeah, there's no problem

there whatsoever, but you're not going to see it made with the same kind of craftsmanship that a movie is when it has the right budget to do what it needs to do. So where do all those skills go? Where does all that craftsmanship go? That's the thing I'm trying to figure out because Chris and I are constantly trying to keep up with what is at the center of the culture along with the things that we love that are on the outskirts of it. And some things are – there are some things I like that are in the mainstream culture but even now I feel like as a lot of these things become these stretched out TV shows you can see exactly what you're describing which is there is less time put into something and then thus less skill and less care and then is it just pixie dust then and then we don't get as many we just get a diminishing

returns on quality films tv shows etc well i think you know i i well i think you're just falling into a tv shows or becoming like movies where there's the good ones and then there's the ones that are okay and the ones that were fun and filled your time and then they yeah and then the ones that you didn't like and you didn't finish. Now, I'm not a guy, I try not to binge when I watch a show. I'll watch two episodes of a show, but I always stop short of a third episode. And the reason I do that is because, well, one, if I like the thing, I don't want to burn through it with half a brain. I want to savor it. I want to enjoy it.

But also as a guy who has actually directed a few episodic television episodes, and I think in them in terms of individual episodes, I don't want to just be caught into a sensation loop. A sensation loop. I want to treat each episode as an episode unto itself. And I've done that before. I've done it way, way, way back in the day, get caught up in a CSI. And I watch a CSI and I really like it. And then I watch another one and I really like that. By the time I'm watching a third one, I'm just plugging in.

I just don't want the sensation to be over, but I'm not taking it in anymore. Okay. But so that's notable too. You directed a CSI, you directed an ER. Those shows are episodic standalone series. They have narrative subplots, soap operatic subplots. Well, they all have soap opera shit going on. But in general, sit down, you can watch any one at any time and it works. I do think that the nature of television has moved almost entirely to you gotta watch the next one. Gotta watch the next one. Yeah.

Or even... Yeah, there's no joining Battlestar Galactica in the third season and it means anything to you. You had to see it from the first season. And a lot of the limited series,

you can count on something really significant happening in the sixth of seven episodes because usually a penultimate episode has a huge thing. But for the most series, you can count on something really significant happening in the sixth of seven episodes, because usually a penultimate episode has a huge thing. But for the most part, while certain episodes might be better or worse than another, they follow the same path where it's like introduction, and then we're going to do sort of this build and these connective episodes, and then it's going to have this huge climax. And it doesn't have like... But I'll give you an example, though. And I think works with the example I just gave

is I do notice when there's a difference and I'll tell you what I mean. People throw the word, well, it's just like a six hour movie. It's just a six hour movie. No, it's not. There was an example of that though last year. I felt the Queen's Gambit played like a seven hour movie

yeah it did and because of that I broke my binge rule because it did not seem like I was I did not think of it as a TV series shouldn't have been broken up in the first place exactly I had no problem watching three episodes of that because it's the same director Scott Frank killing it

and it seemed like a movie I was not about the sanctity of this episode because it's the same director, Scott Frank, killing it. And it seemed like a movie. I was not about the sanctity of this episode. Yeah, in a real navel-gazing way, just doing this show, a series like that gives me fits. Chris's show is primarily, not only, but primarily about TV. This is about movies. A show like that comes along, and in my mind, I'm like, that's a fucking movie.

And Chris is like, this is the biggest TV show that's come along all year and I think because if you have these stratified brains of ours and you were raised on episodic television

it's confusing on the other hand your son he's not going to care about that the centrality we don't even know what he's going to be thinking

because we can't even we are living literally living in a place and time we would be fools to jump to eight years in the future because we don't have We can't even, we are living, literally living in a place and time. We would be fools to jump to eight years in the future because we don't have a fucking clue. Yeah. When you think about it. We don't even know what we don't know.

Well, I mean, I guess it's like the centrality of the movie theater experience, but there's also the idea of that being a muscle people can exercise. I mean, we just did the 1975 movie draft where we picked all of our favorite 1975 movies. And one thing that Sean and I and Amanda really noticed was how high the floor was. You know,

just like the average movie, one hour and 55 minutes, it's a detective and he's in New Orleans and this happens. It's like, that's fucking pretty good, man. And it was like

a much better execution of those stories, which are now almost exclusively HBO shows or exclusively Netflix shows where it was like a much better execution of those stories which are now almost exclusively HBO shows or exclusively Netflix shows where it's like was it Hindenburg 75? I feel like that was one

no I think it was like 78 okay that's an example of a movie the tail end of the the new Hollywood the disaster oh yeah yeah okay

but that's an example of a thing that probably would be a six part yeah Night Moves would be a six hour show you know Drowning Pool would be a multi-season a thing that probably would be a six part yeah Night Moves would be a six hour show you know like Drowning Pool

would be a multi-season maybe but like it would be yeah I don't know if that's sad or not but it's different well one of the things that's actually interesting

is even though there was like there's that great subway subway chase action scene in

in Steve McQueen's The Hunter. When you saw it at the theaters when it came out, it seemed disappointing because it seems like a fucking TV show. But then if you watch The Hunter and imagine it as the pilot

for a TV show where Steve McQueen plays that character, well, that was fucking rad. I want to see that show. You just reminded me that, this is spoiling things, I apologize, but actually the most touching

and what it felt real to me aspect of the book is the McQueen and Rick. Oh, yeah, the nod. No, that's not spoiling anything. Can you just talk about channeling that? Because you might have even heard me say it on the pod, the only thing that didn't really work for me in the movie

was McQueen. And I felt like that was say it on the pod. The only thing that didn't really work for me in the movie was McQueen. And I felt like that was McQueen in the book. That was like, I felt very connected to it. So, like, why did you make that decision? Oh,

to have it or to not have it in the movie? To have, well, both. I mean, I think to put this sequence in there, which really says everything about the sliding doors,

the vanishing opportunities. That's it. That is the essence of the idea. The third pool match never played. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the idea was, well, trust me, Leo and Damien are still very mad at me

for not having that scene. So you shot it? Oh, yeah, I shot it. Yeah. Oh, wow, man Oh yeah, I shot it. See? It's there. Oh shit. I never noticed that. Yeah, that's there.

I'd like to see it. McQueen and the Portage. I'm sure you would. The reason is well, like everything in the movie the reason is well the reason well like everything in the movie it's like

one of the things that worked out I think really good storytelling wise especially since I don't have a normal movie plot is you watch something

in the first half of the movie and it seems like a non sequitur and then something in the second half of the movie ties it seems like a non sequitur and then something in the second half of the movie ties into it so like when you watch

Cliff in his trailer with Brandy the dog feeding her well you think it's just this is just vermicitude about Cliff and we see his abode compared to Rick's abode and we see how he's living and he's got a dog

it just seems like you know, mise en scene with Cliff but actually you're also learning that how well trained Brandy is so then later in the movie when the fight sequence happens you're like well why the fuck is the dog not doing this or that and the other, you know exactly why

but now you were being told an important story point but you didn't realize you were being told an important story point and that happens didn't realize you were being told an important story point. And that happens all the way through. And the same thing with the way McQueen is introduced at the Playboy mansion. And like, you know, he's obviously a friend of Sharon's and he, and he's definitely a friend of Jay's and that's going on. And then all of a sudden pop, she's having a pool party and naturally here comes McQueen pulling up at the gate right next to, you know, and, and Rick happens to be outside learning his lines. And then they have for the first time in 50, in nine years, they have an encounter, you know, um, uh, yeah, maybe 15 years, they have an encounter. But back in the day when they were both, you know,

on the network TV, uh, on the network TV, uh, you know, they met each other at a few things. They, they,

they knew each other. And so, uh, and again, you know, the, uh, the way great successes is right up against great failure.

Not that Rick is a great failure. I think the biggest problem with Rick is he doesn't realize how good he has it. Uh, but, But, you know, I have, I bump into actors and actresses and directors that I knew in 1996 and I bump into them now and directors that I knew in 1996.

And I bump into them now and maybe they're not doing as good as they did. They were doing really great when they were 27. And they were doing really great. And now they're still actors and they're still doing okay. Now that's the actors. Usually, when it comes to the directors that I started Sundance with, they haven't made a movie in 10 years. Yes.

15 years in some cases. Or they're doing episodic television. That's not a bad thing. But I'm just saying, I thought those directors that I came out of, because that was a big year where everybody kind of did well in that Sundance. I thought we would just all be in the industry together and just making movies for the next 30 years. And it didn't work out that way for a lot of them. So do you feel like this is a way to show empathy for that experience and understand it a little more?

It's just the way it is in Hollywood. Yeah. It's just the way it is in Hollywood. Yeah. It's just the way it is. You know, you're an actor and you're guesting on this guy's TV show and this guy

is the star of that TV show. But then you cut to 15 years later and now he's not the star of a TV show anymore and now he's guessing and maybe you're the star of a movie and he's happy to play the

lawyer, you know, in, in, in the movie or you, uh, uh, or you star in a movie with, well, I mean, for instance, just to give an, okay, use the Aldo Ray example. Um, Aldo Ray after, when he broke his contract with Warner brothers and he got out of his contract, one of the first, uh, he, he with Warner Brothers and he got out of his contract, he went to England and started doing movies in England because he was making the biggest money he'd ever made in his life. Well, he went over to England and did a really, really good heist movie called The Day They Robbed the Bank of England.

It was directed by John Gillerman. The second lead in the movie is the very first role, the film role of Peter O'Toole. Wow. And Peter O'Toole is Peter O'Toole. He's not like a young, shiny version of Peter O'Toole. I mean, his next movie will be Lawrence of Arabia. Wow. All right. It's not some shiny, young, herky-jerky version of Peter O'Toole.

He actually looks like he's playing 20 years older than what he is. So he's not gorgeous Peter O'Toole, even though it's his first movie. He's dressed down. But it's fucking

Peter O'Toole. I mean, there's no two, three, four ways about it. Now, if Aldo Ray and Peter O'Toole

were to bump into each other in 1982, that's a pretty poignant story. Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. Do you think you would have, do you think that you would have kept at it if you were doing,

if you were directing episodic TV now, if you were, if your, if your career had gone in a direction, not like Rick's, but you know, like you're that version of Rick where you're, Hey,

I, maybe I make a feature, maybe I made five features but now I'm doing episodic TV and it's a it's a living and it I get to work with some

on some good stuff and some not so great stuff or was it always for you it's gotta be my scripts I have to tell the story it's gotta be this or nothing even more so

what if Kill Bill bombs then what are where are you would you have stuck with movies no matter what that's where Lady in Red comes in that's right that no matter what that's where Lady in Red comes in that's right that's when what

that's where Lady in Red comes in oh yeah yeah um well there's an aspect where um I'm gonna deal with both okay

both of what you guys said um there was a very interesting thing that happened when uh Grindhouse didn't do well because they stopped sending me scripts for me to consider because I just, I wasn't considering them. They thought, oh, he's not really in the market. Don't waste your time. And I think, you know, they called me,

like I can send it to him, but it's going to sit in his fucking kitchen until he throws it away. He's, yeah, He does his own shit. It's not going to happen. The industry gets that, and so they're not offering me anything anymore. Then I finally do a movie that doesn't do well, and that's Grindhouse. All of a sudden, about six weeks

later, they're sending me scripts now. Director for hire. Yeah. Yeah. They're sending me scripts now. And they're big movies. They're really big movies.

It's not, but they're like, okay, no, no, he's on his ass. We got him on the ropes. We got him on the ropes. All right.

You know, he's been humbled. He got his, bailiff whack his peepee all right he's like you know he got kicked in the balls all right he he's insecure you know and uh and and frankly i'm yeah and i and i was insecure i was thinking did you consider any of those scripts no but i would yeah but i was but but i was thinking oh well, will there, you know, will I ever have another hit? Will people in a large number ever come and see my movies again?

I had to ask myself that question. And at the time, the answer is no. That's what you think the answer is. You did a good job on the next one. Yeah, yeah. So the thing about it was, yeah, so there was like a big feature version of Westworld they sent me. And there was like, yeah, it was all kind of stuff like that. It was all kind of like some sort of a rebooty remake of something that would be good for me.

Was there anything that you were like, I could have crushed this? I would have done an amazing job at this and you just didn't do it? No, there's a few things actually. Like I would have done a good job with that Westworld remake. I think few things actually. Like I would have done a good job with that Westworld remake. I think Billy Ray wrote it. I would have done a good job with that. And I've read scripts that I would do a really good,

if I, there's a script that David Webb Peoples wrote for Sergeant Rock. Yeah. That I still think about doing that from time to, I don't think I will but but uh but it's a really magnificent script and i would do a really good job with it um and you know and something i like in and like even now it's like for instance if i if i just wanted to make a good

movie like that was it was a really interesting when when david o russell talked about when he did uh the fighter okay he was over himself yeah he was over being the auteur he was over oh i've got to follow my muse and i just want to make a good movie i just want to make a good movie people are going to enjoy you know and there was something really refreshing about him saying that and that that perspective um if i just wanted to make a good movie that I know would be good, I would take David Murrell's novel for First Blood and do the novel, not the movie that was made out of First Blood. I would do the novel.

And Kurt Russell would play the sheriff and probably the guy from Girls. Adam Driver. Yeah, yeah, would play Rambo. Quinn, let's get this movie going. It would be, look, every. We'll play, we'll play Rambo. Quinn, let's get this movie going. It would be like, every time I read it, I just,

the dialogue is so fantastic in the David Morrell novel that you can't read it out loud. You're reading it out loud and it's just, it would be so good, but now I want to do more than that, you know, but if, if,

if it was just about to make a good movie, that's out there. But now, to answer your question, yeah, if – look, look. I have been beyond the beyond lucky that I've been able to have this auteur career, that I've been able to, and not even basically, literally, it's not, there's no softening of this. From Reservoir Dogs on, everything I wrote, I was able to do. And I was able to do it pretty much exactly the way I wanted to do it, with pretty much exactly the time I wanted to do it, with exactly the money I needed to do it. And with, and almost always, if that always, there's not even an almost with the cast that was appropriate for those characters. It could have cast somebody else, but, but it's, it's, I did what I wanted to do.

I'm very much aware that that makes me a really rare bird. That is, I mean, I, I can, I can never, I'm just so grateful to be in that situation. And for 30 years, I've been able to play the game at this level. And that's like,

and that's one of my few sports metaphors, you know, right. But that is, but there is something. It's your first cliche of this conversation. Yeah. It's, it cliche of this conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, it's, that's something to be able to play the game at that level. And 30 years later, you're still there. Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, and to some degree, when it comes to my fans, they do count down when the movie is going to open. Oh, it's going to open in two weeks. Okay.

Countdown starts now. I mean, I talked to somebody before our conversation. They were like, ask him when he's making number 10. When's 10 coming? And that's going to be going on now. That is, people will ask you about this until the moment it arrives. Are you braced for that? Well, yeah.

You set it up. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. At the same time. Okay. Well, yeah.

I'll talk about my retirement when I retire. But, okay. Say that doesn't happen right okay say um say i do reservoir dogs and and so well give me reservoir dogs okay that happens all right and that happens the way it happens all right and then i i do pulp fiction but say it doesn't catch on to become the – it's the exact same movie. Right. But it doesn't catch on to become the zeitgeist phenomena, which it probably wouldn't have three years later or three years earlier. I mean, when things become a zeitgeist phenomena, it means it just – it happened at just the right time.

Right. And so say it comes out and it does well. Say it does like $35 million. That would have been a hit as far as I was concerned. And that would have been good, but they still would kind of be, okay, now let's put them in a studio. Let's, let's give a man from uncle the movie. Yeah. All right. There still would have been something like that going on. And so say, um, that happens and I, you know, and, and I, I, I do five movies. I do four movies. I do five movies. And I'm proud of them.

And we say they do good. But I don't become an auteur that can just do whatever he wants to do. And so then I move into television. And then I'm doing episodic television. Okay, well, obviously, the career I had is more rewarding. The fact that I'm able to follow my artistic impulses wherever they happen to go. And the fact that I've been able to not even ever put them on a leash. I just go where they go, whether people want to see it or not.

But also, at the same time, I like being a craftsman. I actually would have had fun directing an alias. Sure. All right. And then directing an X-Files. And then directing a CSI. And then directing an Americans. And I would have had fun doing that.

That would have been a fun life. Yeah. Because I actually have nothing but, as this book points out, I have nothing but respect for these dudes. Yeah. Trudy and Rick have that conversation. It's like, how lucky are we? Quentin, this has been amazing. That's great.

Thank you so much for doing the show. Congratulations on the book. I hope people check it out. Thanks a bunch, man. I appreciate it. Thanks, dude. Good to be here. Thank you to Quentin Tarantino for appearing on today's show.

And of course, thank you to Chris and our producer, Bobby Wagner. You can buy Once Upon a Time in Hollywood at your local and virtual booksellers. See you soon.