The Big Picture - #ReleaseTheSnyderCut, Dylan and Scorsese’s Netflix Deep Fake, and Jim Jarmusch on ‘The Dead Don’t Die’ | The Big Picture

Episode Date: June 14, 2019

We dive deep on ‘The Snyder Cut’—the unreleased director’s cut of ‘Justice League’—and the activism surrounding it from DCEU fans, before reviewing the Netflix Bob Dylan mockumentary ‘Rolling Thunder Revue’ (1:00). Then, indie film pioneer Jim Jarmusch joins the show to discuss his new film 'The Dead Don’t Die,' his first foray into the zombie genre (37:55). Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Rob Harvilla, Jim Jarmusch Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelley, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Just wanted to remind you guys that every Sunday night after each episode of Big Little Lies, the Ringer's Amanda Dobbins and ESPN's Mina Kimes break down everything we just saw in our new after show called Big Little Live in partnership with Buick. And after you check that out, make sure to subscribe to the Mina Kimes Show featuring Lenny, a weekly NFL podcast with frequent contributions from her beloved dog and sidekick named Lenny. You can subscribe to the Mina Kaim Show with Lenny on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and make sure to watch Big Little Live every Sunday night on Twitter. I married Isis on the fifth day of May But I could not hold on For very long

So I cut off my hair And I moved straight away To a new country Where I could not go wrong I'm Sean Fennessy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer And this is The Big Picture A conversation show about zombies Troubadours and supermen

Later on in the show I will have a conversation with about zombies, troubadours, and supermen. Later on in the show, I will have a conversation with Jim Jarmusch, the extraordinary director of the new movie, The Dead Don't Die, along with a myriad of other films that I love. But first, we're going to talk about a couple of different movies that are maybe coming out, maybe not coming out. I'm joined by Rob Harvella. Hey, Rob. How's it going? Opening up for Jim, it's an honor. It's a real honor. Truly. It's very profound. You are the Patti Smith at the Rolling Thunder Review of this podcast.

Wow. I'm very happy to have you here. It's very kind. We're going to be talking a little bit later about Rolling Thunder Review, which is a new film, a Bob Dylan story by Martin Scorsese, which is a fascinating new thing that has hit Netflix. But first, we're going to talk about a movie that we haven't seen and we may never see. I'm referring, of course, to the film that you wrote about this week, which is, I guess, called Justice League colon The Snyder Cut. At least one colon in there. At least one colon.

Ideally, several colons somehow. No end dashes to speak of. Rob, The Snyder Cut, to those of the world who know about it, they are impassioned and a feverish bunch, but I suspect that that's a very small group of people. Can you explain what the Snyder Cut actually is? This is going to be your first four-hour podcast and I'm very, very sorry. Okay. Justice League was late 2017 and of course, it's part of the dc comics extended universe the dceu uh so that's superman batman wonder woman and you know for all intents and purposes introducing aquaman

uh it is credited to writer director zach snyder who of course is very well known and beloved and sort of reviled sort of uh superhero movie comic book movie auteur. He did The 300. He did The Watchmen movie. He did Sucker Punch. And he did the first two movies in the DCEU. 2013 was Man of Steel with Henry Cavill as Superman. 2016 was Batman versus Superman, Ben Affleck, of course, as Batman. So Justice League was supposed to be the culmination of his little mini-trilogy within the DCEU. Both those earlier DC movies did really well, but critics really hated them.

Like, Zack Snyder is just a very polarizing figure. He makes very adult movies, very long, very dark, very dense, ultra-violent. You know, just counter-programming to the MCU, basically. And super fans of his were really excited about the Justice League, both for the movie itself and for the way it would reflect back positively

on those earlier DC movies. It was all going to pay off with Justice League. Very late in the production of the movie, Zack Snyder's 20-year-old daughter died by suicide. He left the project saying he had to go be with his family, and he deputized Joss Whedon to finish the film for him. Joss Whedon, of course, a superhero movie auteur himself, did a couple Avengers movies. And they were clear, everyone was clear at the time that Joss was going to complete Zack's vision, that Justice League was still fundamentally Zack's movie, Zack's script, Zack's story, Zack's vision.

And when the movie came out, Justice League, in November of 2017, it manifestly was not a Zack Snyder movie. It was under two hours. It was very bright and colorful and quippy, like lots of Joss Whedon-style quips. And it's very clear that the parent company of the DCEU, Warner Brothers, sort of took advantage of these circumstances to kind of radically change the tone and the direction of these movies and of this movie in particular. And if you were a Zack Snyder superfan, Justice League just didn't do it for you at all. And so the Zack Snyder cut of Justice League is a purported three and a half hour director's cut that he has assembled. And anything from here on gets very messy because it's unclear exactly what this movie is and in what shape it's in. Is it 70% 80 90 like what that even means like he's he's done a lot of public appearances he's dropped things on social media you know he's he's dropped

a lot of hints about this movie and you can add all those hints together and sort of frankenstein this purported movie this snyder cut but nobody agrees on exactly what we're talking about and whether this thing is at all in a releasable form. But the release of the Snyder Cut movie is lobbying Warner Brothers to release the movie. And they will tell you that they don't care if it's incomplete, if there are technical aspects from CGI to sound editing to even parts are storyboarded. They just want to see the story. And they would be content, they say, with landing on a streaming service like Netflix or even DC's own streaming service. But over the last two years, this has taken the form of phone calls, email campaigns, the hashtag,

like Sean, you first sort of pointed me toward it when like when Warner Brothers tweets about anything, when they mentioned a new movie that has nothing to do with any of this, they'll get a flood of replies immediately released the Snyder cut. Like it's, it's taken on a life of its own and it's a very twisty and convoluted thing in and of itself, but it's sort of the most sustained and passionate fan campaign around a superhero movie that I've seen.

And the singular, the question continues to be like, what is this movie? Is it releasable, quote unquote, and is Warner Brothers ever going to release it? I think that is a very sharp summation of a very tangly and complex issue. You mentioned that I point- 45 minutes. No, you did an elegant job. I think the thing-

Thank you. That is fascinating to me about it is what you mentioned right at the end there, which is the persistence that has continued with this process. I pointed the thing that is fascinating to me about it is what you mentioned right at the end there, which is the persistence that has continued with this process. I pointed it out to you. I think it was Warner Brothers UK's Twitter account shared a trailer for the forthcoming movie, The

Kitchen, which stars Tiffany Haddish and Melissa McCarthy, I think, as a couple of gangster women and Elizabeth Moss. And of course, that movie has nothing to do with Justice League, has nothing to do with comic books. It doesn't, it isn't,

wasn't even an American Twitter account that, and all the flurry of responses was vociferous. And I think one of the things that is interesting to me about this kind of a movement, and one of the things I think you did well in exploring it and talking to the people who are behind it is there is this expectation of a crazed kind of, I don't know, impolitic, maybe even evil fan operating behind the scenes and doing these things. And in some cases, there have been some quote unquote bad actors behind the campaign.

And in other cases, you talk to a lot of what I found to be shockingly earnest and even thoughtful people who just really want to see a movie that may or may not exist in any form right and I mean I I will be blunt and say I expected that my mentions you know after publication would be a disaster regardless of what I wrote you know and I that's not true you know I I underestimated again like that civility and that sincerity um yeah i it's like this all started theoretically with a change.org petition which got before it closed i think 180,000 signatures you know basically released the snyder cuts and whatever that number means to you whatever a change.org petition means to you but the guy in puerto rico started that petition like started ranting in updates about like black lives matter and muslims and everything and like the wider

organized movement took the step of disavowing him last year it's as you say like it's there's been twists and turns and there is no there is a central leadership but it's an inherently loose thing and there is this constant threat when you're talking about people on the internet conveying their passion for comic book movies for superhero movies for culture at all like there's this this constant threat of it just blowing up into the terrible thing that you immediately picture you know when you go on reddit or whatever and it is it is i talk to a ton of people. I talked to a guy in Hawaii. I talked to a guy in London. I talked to a guy in Illinois. And they are just

incredibly sincere and incredibly passionate about this in a way that it's inspiring genuinely, not in any kind of condescending way. It's great to love anything or to want anything culturally as much as these people love and want this. And sort of the focal point of this movement now is this GoFundMe started by a guy in London based around Comic-Con in San Diego in July. And they have raised $20,000. And first of all, half that money is going to a charity like a suicide prevention charity in honor of the snyder family the other ten thousand dollars will be spent on an airplane banner and bus stop ads and a hollywood reporter ad like they're going to do this big blitz at comic-con less to rally warner brothers which announced that they're not really showing anything at comic-con they're not going to do a

big presentation as they usually would but more to like educate you know rally the troops the general public just bring people to their cause so it's you don't see this sort of sustained passion in evolution usually in a movement like this after two years and this campaign basically started once the movie was out like the movie is not a zack snyder movie like this isn't a conspiracy theory. It's true that this movie radically changed. It's true that whatever exists, whatever the Snyder Cut is, it is a radically different thing and a truer thing to him than what made theaters. But immediately, they were clamoring for this. And for them to still be clamoring with more focus almost two years later is an incredible thing.

There's a fascinating dissonance to me in this entire story, because on the one hand, you have Zack Snyder, who I think in the aftermath of the release of Batman versus Superman had reached a kind of critical nadir. People, even though he has this, this, as you said, sort of dark and brooding and at times painterly approach to some of these stories. And I certainly remember that there were many people who were very, very fond of his Dawn of the Dead remake and also 300, or at least were impressed by what he was able to accomplish.

The take, and I will say that I shared this take, was that the Superman movie and Batman versus Superman were dog shit. And, you know, you wrote about Batman versusman versus superman as well i believe in your for your previous employer and i did and you were not a fan of the film and and some of these people wanted to discuss that with me yes like all of them wanted to know my intentions they've gotten coverage before like a wall street journal article and that article wasn't terrible but like these guys these people are very,

very sensitive to the way that the media and just the larger entertainment sphere have portrayed them as these crazies who want three and a half hours of a terrible movie. They know what they want and they know how they want to be portrayed and they feel like they've been disrespected. And I'd have to say that by and large is right. Yeah, I think that that's completely fair. And that's the thing is I don't come to criticize the movies that Zack Snyder made. There are Zack Snyder movies that I do enjoy. The point is more that their ultimate point about loving something and wanting to see something that they know that they have an appreciation for is an honorable gesture.

And on top of that, I thought that they made a very compelling point that I had not considered before when I was reading your piece, which is that this does happen. Cuts like this do come out. Blade Runner ultimately got to come out in an extended form. The most persuasive, of course,

was already a DC movie, Superman II, the Richard Donner cut, which is a very famous artifact of studio hackery and rejiggering that in some respects, I think resembles this story. And it actually made this quite persuasive and you managed to elevate what seemed like a hysterical internet campaign into something genuine. Yeah. And another interesting facet of it for me is streaming services. Like I don't think even

the most idealistic member of this movement is thinking like theatrical release at this point like what they do say by and large is why couldn't they just put it on netflix you know and like netflix i think is very sensitive to why don't they just put it on netflix as like a slogan for netflix like i think i talked to a new york times reporter named brooks barnes and he said that, and he said that Netflix is not content to be a dumping ground for studio things anymore. That's not a likely path. But there's the DC universe. There is an actual DC-centric streaming service in existence right now.

And that's the good news. And the bad news is, well, the other good news is they just launched a swamp thing show on the dcu network and the bad news is they canceled it in the same week like i i hope that you didn't actually read my whole article because somebody compares warner brothers and the dcu to uh the nicks and i felt very bad about that but like this is default by default like the second biggest superhero franchise like extended universe in existence but like the gulf between them and the mcu is gigantic at this point and they have this whole infrastructure and they have this whole apparatus they have this huge collection of devout fans but there's a lot of inherent chaos to this and so while it will seem

obvious it would seem obvious that in 2019 like if there's people clamoring for this, why wouldn't you just put that on the DC streaming service? You don't really have to advertise it. People have no idea what we're talking about or don't care, never have to see it or hear about it. But even that is still, in the opinions of people I talk to in the industry, like journalists who cover this, it's just even then, this is profoundly unlikely to happen or at least profoundly unlikely to happen for the next five to 10 years, maybe. The question is, how long are these people willing to keep this up? Usually what it requires is the heavy push of the filmmaker in question. And that's an interesting thing for a variety of reasons. Zack Snyder is in the middle of developing

a handful of new projects. He has returned to his professional life. And one of the strange, similar dissonances to this story is that at the time when this movement began, I would say that DC movies were in a very perilous state. The reception of Justice League was very bad. The box office was disappointing relative to expectation. Since then, we've gotten Wonder Woman, and we've gotten a surprisingly successful Suicide Squad movie,

and we've gotten Aquaman, which made $1 billion. And you mentioned Shazam and the sort of more low stakes approach of Shazam. And the Joker is coming out in the fall. And so you kind of, regardless of how you feel about these movies, DC seems to have found an ability to counteract whatever the MCU is doing. If this is a true battle between two behemoths. And so the, I would imagine that the desire for a Zack Snyder version of DC movies internally at Warner brothers is probably not very big.

And in fact, they're probably ready to completely move on from that era of the company. Would you agree? Yeah. I mean, it's Zack Snyder has returned, as you say, to his projects. He has that Netflix zombie movie, and he's been reportedly going to be doing The Fountainhead, which I will not be coming on your podcast to talk about that if it ever does happen don't count your chickens rob don't count your chickens very very busy that day very very busy yeah but it's it's that's the problem is that the dcu as you say was in this perilous state

has recovered like wonder woman came uh before the justice league but like the next big movie that they've got coming out is Wonder Woman 1984 or 84. And like, that's going to be a huge movie for them. And like, it's so huge and it's so guaranteed that they don't even feel compelled to come to Comic-Con to like, you know, pimp it out. You know what I mean? Like, it's got to the point where it's self-sustaining. They're not, as you say, they're not going to go back to Zack Snyder now.

And they're not going to put out a movie whose storyline disrupts the canon of the larger DCEU. And that's the sort of other reason, like these other director's cuts, Blade Runner for a long time anyway, was a standalone like Superman too. It was like 26 years, I think elapsed between the movie itself and the Donner cut. These things generally happen long, long, long after the original article when there's no chance that the director's cut will disrupt whatever long tail the first movie is trying to have like the dceu is going to be an ongoing thing for a long long time zach snyder's got tons of projects he's working on and it would seem that like his involvement is going to be necessary to any release of the

snyder cut obviously it's just everybody else has got other things going on and again it just seems like when you talk to these people who are really clamoring for this long enough like they sort of acknowledge like or they're ready to gear up again for a five a ten-year fight you know and there's no telling what the entertainment universe will look like 10 years ago if the planet still exists. There's no telling what delivery system a Snyder Cut could take in 10 years. It feels like the very, very distant future to talk about it that way, but that's way more likely than a release next year. Let me just, as an observer and a journalist, do you think we'll ever see it? I think in 10 years, if there is this sustained sort of passion for it, like a question that I

had as I was thinking about it after the story came out is like, if 10 years is the most likely path for this thing to ever come out, does that mean that these people have to fight for it for 10 years or can they basically forget about it and have to fight for it for 10 years? Or can they basically forget about it and then start fighting for it nine years from now and sort of build up that momentum? What kind of sustained action does this require? And I think the answer is they probably could start nine years from now if they were resigned to the 10-year plan. But most of them, plenty of them, are clearly not. and they're willing to do stuff now they're willing to do this comic-con thing now and i you know i don't want to say they're hoping

for a miracle but it's just there's there's no precedent for this and every article that's been written including mine has tried gently or otherwise to say like they're just the industry tea leaves on this thing just do not favor it for any variety of reasons. But they're hoping to be as anomalous as an industry happening as Zack Snyder has become as a filmmaker, I guess. Rob, let's transition from the ridiculous to the sublime, okay? Absolutely. I wanted to talk to you about Rolling Thunder Review, a Bob Dylan story by Martin Scorsese.

I don't even know how you feel about this movie. I will say before you share any of your thoughts or we even explain what is happening in this very strange but fascinating film that I am in love with it and that I have watched it twice. Twice? And it's a two hour and 20 minute quasi docu mockumentary.

And it is, it is, it does the same thing for me that my favorite Bob Dylan songs do, which is distract me and confuse me and make me a romantic and overstate things. And it, I found it to be quite a powerful document while acknowledging that it's quite an absurd thing on its premise. Can you, the way that you elegantly described the Snyder Cut, do you have the ability to do so for Rolling Thunder Review? Oh, dear.

Well, first of all, like I, talking to DC super vans and they would say things like, I saw Batman versus Superman seven times in the theater. And I was like, the seventh time, the seventh time specifically, you watched that in the theater. What did you get out of it? What did you get out of this movie the second time? I'll tell you what I got. I got Bob Dylan in 1975,

screaming the words to ISIS at the top of his lungs at 10,000 people in Waltham, Massachusetts. And I was like, this is it. This is the shit right here. And that is what I got. I mean, obviously the second time around, I was much more aware of some of the mockumentary aspects of the story and we can kind of walk through what those are. The first time I saw it, I was not as aware of some of the arcana surrounding the Rolling thunder series of concerts that are captured here and so there were some things that were fake that i bought and there were other things that were fake that i was like there's just no chance this is real and i'm being fucked with

and it was interesting to kind of go back there's been quite a bit of writing in the past week about about this film and ultimately what i got the second time and this will be true when i watch it for the third time bob dylan at the peak of a certain kind of power doing something that is extraordinary. And that is maybe the silliest white male thing you can be excited about. But I was just so into it and so excited to be watching it. What is your perspective on this movie? Well, let's see. I mean, Dylanology to me in general, like as a younger man, it really bothered me

as like someone who fancies himself like a completist. Like I want to hear everything. I want to read everything. I want to absorb everything that like there was no chance of my ever doing that with Bob Dylan in a billion years.

You know, there was like a swallow the ocean aspect to it. And as a slightly older person, like I at least fancy that like I've come to embrace a sort of seren i at least fancy that like i've come to embrace a sort of serenity around the fact that i'm never going to get to anything or everything or understand everything like i'm just in an inner tube now and like whatever floats by you know i will enjoy as it floats by and like certainly this era of dylan i other than you know the the initial come up

which martin scorsese obviously already did with No Direction Home, the documentary from, was it like 10 years ago now? Yes. I'm not sure. Yeah. But this period of Dylan, Blood on the Tracks and the Basement Tapes. And about 10 years ago, I got an old beat up record player from a used store or whatever. and my buddy bought me a copy of desire you know and like presented it to me as like this hallowed there was like a religious ceremony and him just handing me that record you know and i put it on and it's the hurricane and i'm like yes the next song is isis you know and i'm like yes like it's i i have both and like i know a lot about this or i at least i've read a lot about this era,

and I also have like an emotional connection to this era. And just the visual of it, just the visual of Bob in the hat with all the stupid flowers and like the white face, like it's going to be a great Halloween costume, I guess is the best way to put it. Like it's just, it's a really striking visual that sort of brings you through it.

And just like the pure randomness of how many people are in this movie between like the real people and the fake people like it's he's not the most remarkable figure by any means but like mick ronson it's just the wildest thing to me like whenever mick ronson sort of steps up like to do a solo and hattie carroll or whatever and it's, what the hell is he doing on stage with Bob Dylan? There's just sort of a wonderful randomness to it. And what I do, I don't know if I love it the way that you do, but there was some sort of fissure that occurred, like the scene where Bob and Allen Ginsberg are at Jack Kerouac's grave, like reading poetry at Jack Kerouac's grave. I believe Shakespearean sonnets, as I recall.

Yes, yes. Thank you. I mean, first of all, like that's the spinal tap scene where they go to Graceland, like just verbatim. Like on the one hand, that's just the funniest goddamn thing that I've ever seen in my life. On the other hand, it's kind of a beautiful thing. And like Allen Ginsberg in this movie as a whole,

like I love the way that that these projects both scorsese projects kind of elevate like the dylan myth like the point is that you're being fucked with and you know you're being fucked with and you can decide to what degree but like my brain would not stop processing alan ginsberg as david cross as alan ginsberg and i'm not there yes this occurred to me too. The blend of, yeah, the, the blend of fact and fiction that they're obviously bringing to it along

with whatever you are bringing to it. It's, it's, it's a fascinating sort of mix where you're like, I'm learning a lot here. And also you realize like most of what I'm learning is obviously bullshit, you know, but it's,

it's so, it's so beautiful and so visually striking. And again, as you say, the songs are incredible. Isis is incredible. Hattie Carroll is incredible. bullshit you know but it's it's so it's so beautiful and so visually striking and again as you say the songs are incredible Isis is incredible Hattie Carroll is incredible like anytime Joan Baez is singing with him is incredible you can enjoy this as a surface thing or you can enjoy it as like a deep dive where like everything you're diving into is obviously bullshit yeah I think just to set a little bit of clarity for anybody who is not aware of what this was, there was about an eight-year stretch between 66 and 1974 when Bob

Dylan just didn't tour, particularly in the recording of the basement tapes and then the motorcycle accident that happened when he was living in upstate New York. And then this early stretch of pretty lousy records that comes out in the early 70s. He develops a kind of mythical persona, even more so than when he was in the public eye on a regular basis. And then in 1974, he comes back and he tours with the band. And it's a very successful stadium tour. And in 75, he looks to follow it up with something that is a little bit closer to what resembled a kind of turn of the century traveling medicine show carnival. And so what that means is that there is a series of individuated figures that would be on the show. You know, there would be sort of the Joker figure, and then there would be like the harlot figure,

and all these different archetypes filling in the gaps. And, you know, Dylan is obviously the troubadour. And you mentioned Mick Ronson, who was the band leader for David Bowie, and is just an incredible guitarist. And you wouldn't think of Mick Ronson when you think of Bob Dylan. Nevertheless, he's playing just wicked solos in the middle of Bob Dylan songs. And then his band, which became somewhat famous at the time, which featured T-Bone Burnett and Steven Sills and David Mansfield. And then there is this wondrous woman named Scarlett Rivera, who is a violinist, whose violin you can hear on many of the songs on Desire that we've been talking about, who I suppose keeps snakes and swords in a trunk that she traveled with and seemed like quite a mystical figure. You mentioned Allen Ginsberg and Sam

Shepard is there. And Sam Shepard is there for an important reason because the way that Scorsese presents this film, it's as if there is this lost footage that was being captured by a filmmaker named Stefan von Dorp. And Stefan von Dorp is interviewed in the movie, and turns out Stefan von Dorp is not a real person. In fact, the man that plays him is actually Bette Midler's husband in real life.

But that footage actually comes from a shoot regarding a film called Ronaldo and Clara, which is a four-hour movie that Dylan made during this tour that is theoretically written by Sam Shepard, the famous playwright. Have you seen that movie? Have you seen Ronaldo and Clara? I'm not getting to that one. I'm going to say that to you bluntly. How many times have you seen that one twice? I saw it once and it's no bueno. Not a rewatchable is my take. And you know, you mentioned Joan Baez and Roger McGuinn from The Birds and

Ronnie Blakely who had just appeared in the film Nashville and then Joni Mitchell shows up and Ramblin' Jack Elliott is there and it's this it is truly a carnival of characters and in the execution of the performances on this tour, you see you know, Joni will sing a song and then Joan Baez and Dylan will sing a song together, you know, Joni will sing a song and then

Joan Baez and Dylan will sing a song together and Ramblin' Jack will sing a song. And it's this just sort of orchestrated small arena tour where they hit small towns around the country. But the artifice that Scorsese and Dylan have put around it, which includes the introduction of Jim Giannopoulos, who is the current, I think the chief executive of Paramount right now, and is presented as the concert promoter for this film. That's not true. He was not the concert promoter. We meet a man named Jack Tanner, who you may remember from the Robert Altman series, Tanner on Tanner and Tanner 88. That's not a real person. That's the actor, Michael Murphy. He did not know Jimmy Carter. He did not get introduced to Bob Dylan and visit this concert. Sharon Stone appears in this movie

as Sharon Stone. And she intimates- In a Kiss shirt. In a Kiss t-shirt. In a Kiss t-shirt. She intimates that she was on this tour as a guest of Bob Dylan, which was not true.

There's all this ridiculous, I don't even know how I would describe it. It's a false iconography that is part and parcel to the Dylan myth. And some of it is very silly and some of it is very fun. And the Jim Giannopoulos example that when I saw him, I recognized him as somebody who follows the movie industry closely, but I also don't know everything about Jim Giannopoulos' life. So for him to sit there and be interviewed by Martin Scorsese for this film and say, yeah, I was the guy who organized the tour and I promoted it. I was like, okay, I guess that's true. I have no reason not to disbelieve that. And there will be

hundreds of thousands of people who will fire this up on Netflix and just buy it hook, line, and sinker. What do you think about that as a presentation of history? I'll tell you honestly, I had a sense that the documentarian that Bette Midler's husband was fake. I bought Tanner completely completely i thought that i thought that he was actually a senator and like when he was talking about being the youngest senator in congress and like having to work with all these old people who viewed dylan as the enemy like watching that in real time i took that as fact which is embarrassing to admit i suppose but like reading about this movie it's interesting like some people are pissed like some people come away from this movie

and then do the research or whatever and then are legitimately upset at having been misled which is a very very strange approach to take to a bob dylan project like into a bob dylan martin scorsese project like this is sort of the way it goes you know if you're if you're not sort of attuned to this aspect of dylan at this point i'm not i'm not sure what to tell you but i yeah it was again it was this interesting like mix between things that i know are real and things that i know aren't real and things that i think are real that aren't you know and and then there's this embracing these beautiful sort of bracing moments like when he's singing dylan is singing ira hayes like i believe is he's on a native american reservation and he's singing this very famous and beautiful and powerful song about like a native

american hero like two native americans and like dylan ain't wearing the white face paint like at that point like that's there's something so complex and sincere and beautiful about that moment and to surround it with you know all this meta text and like things you know that you think you know and you don't know or things that you know you don't know it's it's it's just sort of an amazing mix of the real and the fake he did he does this repeatedly even in the film i mean yeah that you mentioned the ballad of hattie carroll which is a song he hadn't performed live for many years and he starts breaking it out and does this electric version of it and then reuben hurricane, which is a song he hadn't performed live for many years. And he starts breaking it out and does this electric version of it.

And then Ruben Hurricane Carter is a significant figure in the movie. And he's interviewed in the film. And we hear the entire saga of how Dylan wrote the song Hurricane, learned about Ruben Carter's plight, visited him in prison, and then eventually led to his

getting a chance to be freed from prison. And that is played pretty straight. And we hear from Carter talking very excitedly, might I add. He's quite a charismatic figure. He is. It's so fascinating to watch Scorsese and Dylan collide this stuff so deeply and so confusingly. And while I could see that it might feel like,

I don't know, like a bait and switch to hardcore fans, I think it's a good reminder that, and there't know, like a bait and switch to hardcore fans, I think it's a good reminder that, and there's something in unison with the Snyder Cut here, be careful how seriously you take the art that you like. You know what I mean? Right. Give yourself a little bit of breathing room here.

At a key moment early in the movie, Dylan, who is interviewed in present day throughout the film in this very mischievous kind of way, says life isn't about finding yourself, it's about creating yourself, which is definitely Dylan's mantra full stop. I mean, that feels like the clearest evocation, all this stuff told everything taken together. Do you think that this is a, a great music documentary in any way? I think that it will grow for me to be one. And I think for people who have the level of investment that we have, and on the one hand, that's not a lot of people.

And on the other hand, that's actually quite a lot of people. This is sort of the ideal Netflix project that's not just dumped on Netflix for the handful of diehards. People who are into this stuff are super into this stuff. And it's not a mainstream thing. But there's enough people out here who will view this as a sacred text and it will become one to those people as it's already become for you like my my favorite line from current dylan is he says something like i don't remember any of this it was before i was born i'm trying to get to the to the core thing

to the core of what this Rolling Thunder thing is all about. And I don't have a clue. Because it's about nothing. It's just something that happened 40 years ago. That's the truth of it. Why don't we go down that road? Okay, we can. Let's go.

All right, let's go. I don't remember a thing about Rolling Thunder. Okay. I mean, it happened so long ago I wasn't even born. So what do you want to know? It is just the perfect Dylan line. The funniest thing in the whole movie is when Reuben Carter is talking and he says, yeah, me and Dylan, one thing we have in common is we're both crowd pleasers. Whatever you want to say about Bob Dylan,

I don't think crowd pleaser is quite the way i personally would describe him it's like or it's just confounding you is just so central to his mission and always has been and now that he has like like x six seven decades of myths to play with and sort of remix like the sharon stone thing like there are jokes buried in jokes buried in jokes there like when he convinced she tells this story about him convincing her that she inspired the song just like a woman it's amazing you know which i was like 10 years old that song at that point like it's just what the hell is going on at this point like just the the the russian doll aspect of the lies in this movie

is just an utterly confounding thing that takes like two, three, four watches of a two and a half hour movie to sort of decode all of it. People are going to put in the time. I know that you are, and I can honestly see myself doing the same. Well, I don't know what else to say other than if you care about him, I think you'll at least be interested. And if you don't care about him, oddly, I think that this is a useful portal into understanding what Dylan is actually after. And I'm not sure how many... You can read Chronicles if you want to. You can watch No Direction Home, the previous Scorsese film that you mentioned.

You can watch him in The Last Waltz. You can listen to Blonde on Blonde. But in a way, I've never seen such a clear evocation of what the Dylan mythos is. So I would recommend it purely on that strength. Rob, I appreciate you talking about the fantastical and the grounded here on The Big Picture. Absolutely. We should probably also mention real briefly Patti Smith, who's really really great in this dylan thing and sort of the explicit way that it's like the torch passes to her like just the style that she has like sort of it seems like rambling and it seems like totally made up but it's actually really profound like when you add it all together like that's another sort of beautiful thing that really struck me in that moment. But yeah, I pictured a bat signal on the side of my house in the silhouette of Dylan with the harmonica case as soon as this came out. And it was an honor to be here. Thank you, Rob.

Thanks. Before we get to my conversation with Jim Jarmusch, let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by the all new BMW 3 Series. Don't be driven by technology, drive it. The all new BMW 3 Series is available with state-of-the-art technology. That means feature after feature of the latest BMW innovations, such as the intelligent personal assistant, hands-free steering, backup assistant, parking assistant, frontal collision warning, twin-power turbo engine, and a completely redesigned interior with gesture control. What you'll love about this technology is that it's so simple and easy to use. But what you'll really love about this vehicle can't be listed or explained in words.

It has to be felt on the road, the same way I felt the feeling of love and passion while watching Rolling Thunder Review. So hurry into your local BMW center today and test drive the all new BMW 3 Series for yourself. The all new BMW 3 Series. Don't be driven by technology. Drive it. BMW, the ultimate driving machine. Thanks again to Rob.

Let's go to my conversation now with Jim Jarmusch, the legendary filmmaker behind such movies as Mystery Train and Down by Law, and the new movie, The Dead Don't Die, his take on a zombie film. Just an honor and a pleasure to be joined by the great Jim Jarmusch. Jim, thanks for being here. Wow, thank you. It's my pleasure to be here. Jim, I've been thinking a lot about your films. I've been re-watching some of your films this week,

and I'm curious how you write now and how you decide what you want to do next, because you've done all different kinds of films at this point in your career. And I'm wondering, is it idea first or creative challenge first that comes for you? Oh man, you know, it's kind of a mystery. I just gather ideas for things way in advance. I keep a little notebook always with me. You're looking at it right now? Yeah, I have it always. And I don't, I'm not a good planner. It's kind of, I have a lot of contradictions. Like I'm not good at making decisions in daily life. And then while making a film, I love making a million decisions every day. I don't know why. But what I do is I just gather ideas,

and then I usually have a certain point I have a plan for what the next film will be. And then after I've collected enough ideas, I sit down and start writing, and the writing process is usually pretty fast. And I usually have the central characters, the actors I'm writing for, I have them in mind. So, you know, later I have to see if I can trick them into doing the thing, but I'm imagining often the central characters. Is the writing always straight to script? Do you just open up the final draft page and start typing dialogue or is there some sort of outlining process? Like what's your, what do you do? I don't have a laptop. I don't even have email, honestly. I got an iPhone. I don't, so I write by hand in a notebook. So I'm working, working on the script by hand. I like the tactile

thing of crossing things out and seeing what was there or where I spilled coffee on the thing or whatever but it does inform something for me so yeah I do that and then once I have the script written I dictate it to put it on a computer and then make changes and adjustments as I go but for me a film Nick Ray said something like if you're just going to film the script, why bother? And that's not true for everyone. Like, you know, Hitchcock made fantastically formulaic films, but that was their strength. But I don't do that, you know. So the film's always a process.

It changes as we go. For me, I write one draft of the script, and then I change it as I start rehearsing, getting locations. And really, I say the final draft is the final edit of the film because it keeps changing throughout. Do you put a lot of description about the way that the film will look into your scripts, or are they primarily there for the actors to understand where the story is going? Well, I never refer to the camera if possible. So I don't talk about where the camera, what it's seeing. So I try to find a way to be descriptive and give enough atmosphere without overly describing things. Because, you know, the beauty is you then go find locations that may not be what you imagined you work with a production designer who will bring ideas that elevate your own the same with the director of photography the costume designer

they all elevate it above what i do alone by myself writing in the middle of the night you know so the collaborative thing then lifts the film up and then the final things in the editing you know i'm not i've learned now that the film has to tell you what it wants because for me shooting a film while shooting we are gathering material to make into something we're not making the thing yet you know so it's kind of like we're in a big quarry pulling marble out, and then we bring it back, and we're going to sculpt it, and we were going to make a horse, but really it says it's a camel. So you've got to go, you have to let the film tell you. And I've had really, I've wrestled with films where I want that scene. It was really hard to shoot.

It cost a lot of money, and the film keeps saying, well, take it out and see how i feel i take it out the film's much happier was there a specific example of that that you can think of oh i in this film not so much uh in a previous film only lovers left alive i had way too many scenes before the two central characters were actually together because they were in different in Tangier and Detroit. So I had some beautiful scenes, but the film just didn't want them. So that was frustrating. Damn you film. That's so funny though. I was thinking about the different kinds of films that you make. They all obviously have the kind of the essence of your tone, your voice, your approach to the world, But especially of late, much more into genre. You made a documentary.

You've made anthological films. Do you have in your notebook of ideas a kind of checklist of a kind of movie you'd like to challenge yourself to do? Honestly, I don't. You know, I really don't. Sometimes I carry things around. I mean, I was thinking about a zombie film ever since Only Lovers Left Alive, which is a vampire film, but really it's a love story disguised as a vampire film or framed by that. So I don't really know, you know, I don't really do that. I'm very non-analytical because I've learned that my strength, even while shooting,

editing, writing is an intuitive strength. So I protect it from analysis. This is a shame that you're here talking to me, analyzing all your work. Well, I'm not doing a good job of it, so that's probably good and protective. But yeah, I can't really, you know, it's kind of mysterious. It's like when you make a film and you do something right that works, sometimes you don't really know why it was right. But if you do something wrong, you know why it was wrong. You know, that's why I always tell young artists, I can't tell other people how to do anything. That's not my thing. But when they ask advice, I always say, your mistakes are super valuable. And don't be afraid of them.

Don't be afraid to fail because that's where you really learn what you wanted to do. And, you know, so that's very important to me. Do you have a relationship right now to your older films? Do you rewatch them? Do you think about what you did and didn't do? go into a theater where the film is playing and people paid to watch it i sit in the back like with a hoodie on or whatever so they don't know i'm there and i watch cover your famous main yeah well or my as iggy pop calls it my flashlight because even on stage he's hey man i can see your flashlight but uh so i watch it that way and then that's it. I don't watch it again. And even if I have to, say, transfer it to a newer format or whatever, I do things like, okay, in the old days they were in reels, right?

So I'd say, okay, I'm going to look at the reels out of order and don't put the sound on. Or now I say, okay, I'll look at it straight through, no sound. Then I'll deal with the sound after. I don't want to see them again for two reasons. I can't change them now, right? So I'm going to see something. Oh, I could have trimmed that. Oh, man, that cut could have been better.

And also, I don't like looking back. You know, I don't. It's not healthy for me. I want to think about what's the next thing. Because, man, life is going fast. And I just want to stay. I'm trying to be in the present. That's the hardest thing. But it's what's coming next that's important to me to focus on. But I know people that love watching their old films, and I don't see anything wrong. I think it's a very personal thing. But for

me, no way. I can't do it. Some people think of it as home movies, I guess, an experience of their life that they want to just tap back into. One thing that I really like about what you do in the world in general is you don't just make films. You make music, you make art, maybe photography. There are a lot of different things. Does film still occupy that centerpiece role in your creative life? Well, film's the thing I've spent the most of my life trying to learn how to do. So, and also film is so beautiful to me because, I mean, I'm not, I don't make abstract experimental films, which I appreciate, but I make narrative films, right? And in my way, some critics wouldn't agree, but they do tell stories anyway.

So, the thing is, cinema contains really every other form, you know, music, how it moves, cutting, writing, acting, style, composition, everything, architecture, it's all in there. So that is so beautiful to me that that's really the form I've spent most of my life trying to learn. Music's very different and beautiful because music's more immediate. And a film, for me, takes two years easily to make. In fact, The Dead Don't Die is coming out soon, and I've been working on it for two years now, pretty much straight. Whereas music, you're in a room, the thing starts flowing, you're interacting with another musician or just with yourself and the instrument. It's such a really different thing, very satisfying. But I'm a self-proclaimed dilettante because I follow what strummers rule. Anyone who knew Joe Strummer knows strum's rule, no input, no output.

He said that all the time, you know, adamantly. And that is, you know, it sounds so simple. And I've read a lot of, you know, stuff great artists have written from John Cage to, you know, all kinds of people. But really that thing, Strummer, you know, Strummer, you know, he just was very certain that you have to be a receptor to give things back out. And so I, and life is short and I can't just learn about one thing. So I'm interested in so many subjects, whether it's, you know, I don't know, I gave a lecture at a college some years ago, and then in a supermarket, I ran into a guy who was there. And he said, hey, man, 10 years ago, you spoke at New Paltz, but you only talked about mycology, mushroom identification, the history of British and

Italian motorcycle design, French symbolist poetry, the connection between theoretical physics and Buddhism. And you didn't talk about films at all. And I said, oh, man, I'm sorry. And he said, no, it was really cool. I liked it. But so I follow, you know, all kinds of things that interest me. Yeah, I've heard you describe yourself as sort of a non-professional filmmaker in the past. And I wonder, is that to protect something about the process that you have too?

It is because the word amateur means that you love a form. And the professional means you do it for money. And there's nothing wrong with that, you know. But I try to protect being an amateur. I also heard you say that you were not typically a fan of zombie movies and i'm wondering why you've made a zombie movie yeah i'm really not a big zombie fan uh i'm a film kind of film geek so i know a lot about the history of zombie films but uh yeah i'm a more of a vampire guy. But zombies don't interest me. You know, they're just lifeless, inanimate, I don't know, they're just lumbering, soulless creatures.

They're not really that interesting to me. But, you know, this will be a long conversation about what are zombies in cinema. Because, really, up until george romero they're something else and early zombies are like voodoo entities but that's not you know george romero's like post uh post-modern zombie master where the zombies are the result of something humans did that was stupid and messed up something. And they are us. They come from within a broken social structure.

George Romero's films are very sociopolitical in their way. So the zombies are not only us, they're the monsters from within, not from without, and they're also the victims because they didn't ask to be reanimated. So it's a very, he did something very fascinating for me, what he did with zombies. So I'm following the Romero zombie thing in this film, but what attracts me is the frame because genres are, as Sam Peckinpah said, they're just a frame within which you can make your own thing. Okay, it's a Western, so then he can make, you know, some, The Wild Bunch is a Western like nobody ever saw before. So I liked the idea of the frame for The Zombies. I liked the idea of the frame for the zombies. I liked the idea of its inherent, you know, the inherent metaphor of the walking dead or whatever. But I hesitate to even use those words, the walking dead, because I've never seen the walking dead and anyone expecting that our film has anything to do with that kind of thing will probably be misled.

Yes. It's an interesting moment for a movie like this to arrive to, which is, I feel like at this sort of tail end of that kind of craze. And it feels like your film is much more bringing it back to a Romero style, which is like this load bearing metaphor, literally, you know, it's meant to represent something. Did you really want to say something sociopolitically meaningful? And is that why you use this format? No, not really. I mean, I'll tell you what I initially, my initial idea for this film was I want to, I wanted to make a film with a silly, well, that's not the right word, but kind of ridiculous sense of humor.

Closest thing was the film we made called Coffee and Cigarettes, and it's little vignettes. But Coffee and Cigarettes, I had a little pre-established structure of just where to put a camera and an idea of people just talking, having coffee and cigarettes. so within that little frame they could talk about anything so what i thought was okay i'll have people kind of hold up in little areas separated i'll get a lot of actors i love and see if they'll they'll do this like i i was able to do in coffee and cigarettes and then um but in these pauses between the zombies breaking through, they'll have these long kind of lax periods where they can talk about any kind of nonsense that comes to me, right? So I started with that as the idea, but instead, as I started writing, I started to think about this town. Frank Zappa made a film, 200 Motels, and it takes place in Centerville, a real nice place to raise your kids up in the Zappa version. I did not catch that reference.

So, yeah. So, okay, Centerville, I'm going to do that, and it's a real nice place, and it's like a three- town and then i can at least have interesting little not cliched characters but characters that are a little bit uh yeah i don't know what the right word archetypal archetypal thanks so then i just started writing that and i i had i wanted to write so i wrote specifically for bill murray for adam driver for chloe 70 for Tilda Swinton, for Steve Buscemi. And then I, you know, some of the other actors came to me after it was written. But so I just started with that and it kind of veered off of that initial idea that structurally, but the kind of ridiculousness, I think, I hope remained to some degree. There's so many little things about it that I love. It's funny that you mentioned coffee and cigarettes because the movie

of yours that it reminded me the most of was Night on Earth because there's so much happening in cars. There's so much action where you have to, you're focused on people in cars and you have to make that interesting. Is that, is something, a scene like that a challenge for you to do at this point? Well, it was a real challenge in Night on Earth on earth man we were towing all those cars and shooting in the cars and putting speed rail around the cars to put lighting on the cars you know um this one was really rough to shoot because we didn't have enough time we didn't really have enough money even though focus features we had a hard time financing this thing and focus features did step up and they gave us total autonomy with the film no interference creatively at all but the budget

was a little slim and so we had to yeah it was rough we couldn't shoot uh towing any cars we didn't have the budget so all of the car interiors are in a darkened warehouse stage. No kidding. And then we added the plates later, which look a little artificial in a way that I like. We couldn't shoot nights because we were shooting in the summer and the nights were so short. So we decided early on, Fred Elms, the DP and I, okay, we're going to shoot day for night and make that look a little artificial, you know, because our guide in this film in many ways is Night of the Living Dead. And the thing that Romero did, he used these certain constraints of his budget and time

and crude acting and cheap effects he used to his advantage. And, and the, the awkwardness in those things, uh, contributes a kind of awkwardness to the film and even to the themes, you know? So our film's not awkward in the same way,

but, and we didn't have crude acting, but we had other limitations that we tried to embrace as a sort of artifice to—I don't know if that makes sense. No, it does. There are a couple of choices that you make. There's the breaking of the fourth wall. There's the Sturgill Simpson of it all. Oh, that's a really good CD, Sturgill Simpson, The Dead Don't Die.

Yeah, I know. I love this song. Is it nice? What? The motel. Oh, yeah. It's kind of cool. It's one of those old school ones. Like in old school horror movies with like, like in Psycho with the separated

bungalows? The Bates Motel in Psycho was not separated into little bungalows. There's something sort of extraordinary about some of the things that you're doing in the storytelling choice. Is that what you, are you trying to essentially push people off their access of comfort when they're watching the movie? No, I was just initially just trying to amuse myself, you know? And like the thing is I, the fourth wall thing, I wrote it and then i thought well you know adam if adam and bill are

going to be these guys i'm going to collaborate with them and i'll see how that works and and see how they feel about it you know and if it's not good i'll i'll jettison it you know because i'm always changing things and they really liked it they thought found it very funny they they thought it deepened the whole experience for them as actors and characters. So, okay, we kept that. The Sturgill thing is I got to present a Penn Award in Boston a few years ago. They gave it to two songwriters. Well, Tom Waits and Kathleen Brennan together as songwriters and John Prine.

And I was giving the award, the thing, to Tom and Kathleen. They're old friends of mine. So Sturgill was there giving the Penn Award to John Prine. I think somebody else, John Mellencamp, too, was presenting it. But Sturgill and I, before the thing, we saw each other in this room, like this little cocktail thing, and walked right up to eachill and I, before the thing, we saw each other in this room, like this little cocktail thing, and walked right up to each other and go, you're Sturgill.

And he goes, you're Jim. And then we just started talking and met. I love that guy. I knew his music. He is a fantastic artist. He is a fantastic person and a great artist. So I took the liberty of writing in the script all the Sturgill stuff.

It's the only source music in the film. The rest is score that myself and Carter Logan as our band Squirrel made. So I wrote it all in, all this stuff about, and everyone's always talking about, oh, that's Sturgill Simpson. So then I wrote it in the script without even having talked to him. And Carter Logan and Josh Astrakhan, my producers that I work with, they said, Jim, you can't give the script out to financiers using Sturgill's name in there like that when you haven't even talked to him. I was like, oh, you're right. So I took all that. I just put TBD, but then I immediately called Sturgill and I told him about it and he was, and he was down to do it. So we kept talking about what kind of song we would reference, you know, Patsy Cline tracks for certain rhythm things or some of his previous songs.

He would say, no, you don't want a novelty trucker thing, right? And I'm like, no, no, I want a beautiful Sturgill ballad. And then he would send me some lyrics. And I just said, the only thing is it's got to be called the dead don't die. And it's got to be you, you know, and other than that, and the rhythm and stuff shouldn't be super fast. And then he started writing, he'd send me little snippets of, of, of lyrics, and then he'd send little melody things. And all I said every time was thank you this is great man sturgill just go forward whatever so he created a song that sounds like a lost country

track from 1962 or something that just slipped through the cracks like a sort of george jones style thing and uh it's beautiful because I'm in the editing room every day. I've heard that song a thousand times and I still love it, man. I still want to hear the whole thing each time. I don't know why, but. Yeah, it's a great touch. I really love it. He's remarkable. So I'm really proud that that's the only song in the whole film. And even when there's other source music it's instrumental of that song as well so didn't have to license any other music that is that is nice uh i'm curious about your relationship with adam driver i feel like in patterson you tapped into this deep

reservoir of thoughtfulness and kindness and then in in this movie, he's really funny. Really, I think it's the funniest performance that he's given and still gets to be kind of a hero and he has a lot of responsibility in telling the story. But what is it that you've identified in him as a leading man for you? Well, he is very funny in a very dry way. One of my favorite things to do in my life in these last years is between takes

or when we have a little downtime is try to make Adam laugh. Because you got to work at it. Because he has sort of, let's say, a cautious sense of humor. And once you break it, I just, I'm so proud I got through, you know. So we have a lot of running jokes between us uh and uh one of them was well on patterson like we're gonna make an action nihilistic action film called peterson where you are a murdering so psychopath with a 357 and you know the taglines will be either get the fuck off my bus or next stop hell. You know, we even made a mock-up photo of Adam with a burning bus in flames behind him, you know.

So that was Peterson. That's good. So in this film, his name is Peterson. Of course. And Bill Murray's name is, these are also things I did amusing myself while writing. In Broken Flowers, Bill was Don Johnson. So in this, he's Cliff Robertson. Yes, I did pick up on that one. Tilda Swinton's name is Zelda Winston, or Rosie Perez's name is Posey Juarez, you know? So I did just playing around

with them. But Adam is, I don't know, there's something I love about his, he's always slightly, when we work together, the characters, they're slightly taken aback by everything. You know, there's always a kind of pause before he speaks. And even in the script, I'll often write before a line, I'll write, uh, well. He's like. His cadence. Yeah. But I just love him. And he's contradictory because he's super handsome. But you can film him to look kind of geeky too in a way.

And he won't watch any film he's ever been in. I've heard this. I really think he's kind of the ultimate film actor right now too. He can kind of do any sort of part. He can be in a big budget thing. He really can. He can be in a small thing that is funny really varied but i loved having him be kind of the straight you know the have bill murray almost be the straight man for a change and bill for me his character in the film is kind of the heart of the film because he's

his character's kind of lost and over the hill and he has this authoritarian position that doesn't mean anything in a little town and he doesn't really want it to be authoritarian, but he is the chief of police. And I don't know, there's a moment of dialogue I like a lot where he's saying, I was supposed to retire two years ago. And Adam says, yeah, why didn't you? And he says, why didn't I what? Why didn't you retire two years ago? And Adam says, yeah, why didn't you? And he says, why didn't I what? Why didn't you retire two years ago? Oh, you probably know the answer to that. And he says, are we improvising here? And he says, you probably know the answer to that.

And Adam just says, his character says, yeah, I probably do. They don't even explain it. I love that. I feel like you're keeping the audience on their toes as much as you're trying to entertain yourself. Yeah, well, when I write dialogue, when it's going well, I'm only channeling the characters. I'm not even inventing their dialogue. And that was an instance where I remember distinctly writing that dialogue with no thought about it. I was just hearing them talk and like, I better transcribe

what they're saying in my head. But it wasn't my head telling them what to say. It's a strange thing. I know songwriters too sometimes say, well, the song just comes. I didn't know it was going to come and I didn't know where. Or I heard somebody very beautiful, somebody said recently, often a song is already there. You just have to kind of open the curtains and find it and realize it, but it's sort of there waiting. It just hasn't been completed yet. This is the challenge of being interviewed about things, right? Because the mystery of invention is inexplicable and nevertheless, people want to know, how'd you do that? Yeah, it is a mystery. And also sometimes your mistakes are some of the best things you do. And then everyone thinks, of course, you intended that. And then you say, yeah,

yeah, we planned all that. But you didn't plan it. It was an accident, you know? So everything in life is kind of mysterious like that. You know, you mentioned that Focus financed the movie and that there was some trouble financing it. You've obviously been doing this in an independent fashion for a long period of time. At this stage, how do you see the state of independent movies? It feels like it's at a very, I'm sure people have been saying this for 40 years, but it seems like it's in a very weird state right now. Yeah, it's gotten worse in terms of just facilitating your ideas and the reason for that is pretty simple it's a kind of global corporate monetizing of everything so

the idea of financing films for many entities that do that is to how can we kind of squeeze it to the smallest possibility for the filmmakers so our profit margin is looks better for our overlords you know and that is so that's just across the world now and it's rough it It makes it rough. When I started out, I would do split rights financing where I could pre-sell Japan, Germany, France, and have enough money to make the film. And then we would sell the film when it was done, and those people, when they made their money back, then we split 50-50. You put up the money, I make the film, you get your money back, then we're partners. Man, that would be unheard of. Like you'd be laughed out of the building for such an idiotic proposal now, you know? So it's just the monetizing of everything. It's not just films,

it's just the whole world and the way everything is evaluated by money. And that's not new, but it's gotten really, it's gotten to a perverse stage that is referenced in a way in The Dead Don't Die and some of the things Hermit Bob, Tom Waits says in the end, but it's frustrating. I also like in the film the way that you identify the kind of narcotized habits that we have in our daily life being a resonant feeling for the zombies too, you know, returning to that thing, their cell phone, their vices, the small little things in their life. Where does that come from for you? Is there self-reflection in that too? Certainly. I mean, it's an obvious reference to Dawn of the Dead where they go to the shopping mall and they go to the places where they felt comfortable.

But yeah, it's the, you know, this consumerism of useless commodities that we're sort of brainwashed to continue doing is unfortunately probably going to be the downfall of our own survival. And, you know, I don't of um the dead don't die it wasn't it's not intended to be a message movie it's per se it's a it's a comedy you know but there's socio-political things woven in for sure because my biggest concern right now for for for people of the planet, creatures of the planet, is an ecological crisis that is happening and everyone's denying, and not everyone, but in general, we're just denying it. So, it's kind of disturbing. I mean, look at the weather here, even look at the recent tornadoes in the central center of the u.s or all over the world it's it's getting real weird and we know why science knows why i i don't want to spoil anything

for lack of a better word but it is notable to me that the people that survive in this movie are the people kind of living on the fringes of society or outside of the traditional societal structures yeah it's not a spoiler. The people who survive are very important to me. There are three teenagers that are in a detention center that have already been put sort of separated from the social order for whatever problems they had. And they're teenagers, you know, and my heart's really with teenagers in general. And then the Tom Waits' character, Hermit Bob, he has chosen to separate himself from any kind of social structure for decades and is living in the woods and appreciating the details of nature.

And those four characters, there's three teenagers. They don't, we don't see them zombified. Somehow they escape it, at least up until the end of the film. Seems more than purposeful. But speaking of teenagers, you know, my, do you know Greta Thunberg? No. She is a 16-year-old. I think she's Danish or Swedish. She is leading. She has Asperger's, and she's leading Europe and a lot of the world in not denying this climate crisis. And she can, like last weekend or so ago, very quickly, she mobilized a demonstration of 40,000 people in Copenhagen in a matter of days, but she's like a leader to me,

and I really appreciate her and the Sunrise Movement. That's a lot of young people, I think started in California. But these people, man, they really have my respect. And teenagers are really important to me always because they are, you know, they're pushed around, they're in a state of confusion for their own biological, sexual, you know, whatever's going on inside them hormonally. And then everyone's telling them to grow up and you don't know how the world works and all of this. And yet they're the ones that really define our style, our music, our philosophies. Really, it comes from teenagers. So, you know, respect that to all the teenagers. Shout out to the teens.

Yeah. Jim, I end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen. You seen anything great lately? You seen anything at Cannes? I saw nothing at Cannes. I just had to do press. Gosh, I don't know you know i see about four or five movies a week usually is that a fact so but not mostly not in theaters it can be an older film well i'll tell you i saw it recently i saw claire denis

film high life which is very strange very strange strange. Beautiful, though. But the end of it, I found really, I couldn't get it out of my head. But I saw quite a few interesting films this year that were, you know, not obscure films like Roma and The Favorite, and I loved Shoplifters, Black Klansman, Death of Stalin. But I would say, oh, also my friend, long-time friend Fab Five Freddy made a film, Grass is Greener. That's right. Yeah, that was pretty interesting. On Netflix. I got to say, I think, oh, I also loved At Eternity's Gate, Julie Schnabel's film about Van Gogh. Yes, of course.

With Willem Dafoe, really fantastic. But I got to say, the masterpiece of American cinema in recent years for me is David Lynch's Twin Peaks The Return, an 18-hour film that is, for me, ecstatically incomprehensible. I don't know what it means. I just think it was just so strangely beautiful, evocative, and amazing. I'll tell you a true story. I was researching this conversation last

night. I was reading an interview with you. There was a link to a squirrel song, clicked on the link, played the song on YouTube, listened to it all the way through. The next link was the sequence in Twin Peaks The Return, which features the atom bomb explosion set to the Penderecki score, which is the craziest thing I think I've seen on a TV screen maybe in my entire life. But there is a symbiosis maybe between your creativities. Well, it's nice to know. But David Lynch can't even get a film financed, you know? So when talking about that, what we were talking about, why don't we just have like the Medici's? Why isn't there a form like, oh, David Lynch is making a film. Give him whatever he wants. Terry Gilliam's making a film.

Give him whatever he needs. You know, I don't understand. Well, I hope you make a thousand more. I really appreciate coming on, Jim. Well, thank hope you make a thousand more. I really appreciate coming on, Jim. Well, thank you very much. Thanks again to Rob Harvilla and of course the great Jim Jarmusch. Please stay tuned to The Big Picture next week. Amanda Dobbins and I will be back.

We'll be talking about Men in Black International and also what may or may not be shaping up to be one of the worst summer movie slates we can remember. See you then.