The Big Picture - Rewatching 'Tenet' (at Home) in the Year of Christopher Nolan. Plus: Steve McQueen!

Episode Date: December 18, 2020

Nolan's controversial time-inversion saga is finally available to watch at home. Chris Ryan joins Sean and Amanda to break down the movie on a second viewing, celebrate its extraordinary action, and discuss Nolan's future after his comments about Warner Bros.' 2021 HBO Max strategy (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by director Steve McQueen to discuss the making of his exceptional anthology film series 'Small Axe' (54:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Steve McQueen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about big tents and small axes. Later in the show, I will be joined by Steve McQueen, the co-writer and director of several of my favorite films of the year, all of which are collected in the Small Axe Anthology, which wraps up this weekend on Amazon. With the final installment, Education. Steve is one of my favorite filmmakers to speak with, so I hope you'll stick around for that. But first, if there has been a movie that represents the anxiety, the excitement, the terror, and the general frustration with the year in movies, it has to be

Christopher Nolan's Tenet. Now that the movie is available to watch at home, Chris Ryan is joining us to revisit this movie and talk about the year in Nolan. It's all coming up on The Big Picture. CR, welcome back. How are you? I'm a motherfucking time cop. That's how I am. I'm so glad you're here.

I can't believe that this is Double Build with Steve McQueen, by the way. May I just say, up top, Steve McQueen, I admire and respect you. And Small X Series is incredible. And we're so sorry. All I do is headline pods with our greatest directors it's always cr in 22 font and then sophia coppola and then steve mclean it's just so embarrassing for me i don't imagine any of these filmmakers ever listen to these interviews but if they only listen for me so they only come for this they must be steven soderbergh if you listen to our episode about you like i don't know what to say.

I'm sorry. We're doing our best. Oh God, I hope not. It's terrifying. You know, speaking of terrifying, before we get into Tenet, and there's a lot to talk about with Tenet, something happened in movies yesterday

that was really important. It might've been the most important thing that's happened in 2020. And that of course is that leaked audio of Tom Cruise yelling at various members of the production crew of the latest Mission Impossible movie appeared on the sun.com, the sun newspaper. And it was extraordinary. We are the gold standard. You're back here in Hollywood making movies right now because of us. Because they believe in us

and what we're doing. I'm on the phone with every studio at night. Insurance companies. Producers. And they're looking at us and using us to make their movies. We are creating

thousands of jobs, you It's actually the sun.co.uk. Thank you. Thank you for clearing that up. That's a very tenant take from you. You went back in time and corrected me. Um, Chris, Amanda, I shared this with you. As soon as I heard it, I was so excited just to hear this audio. Chris, what was your reaction to Big TC? Gosh, you know, this was one of those things that was like so fun for two hours and then immediately got like ruined by takes. So I probably am like already tired of it,

but what a performance. Maybe his most animated, sentient human performance of the decade, you know, of the last 10 years, just to see him so like naked and so angry. I mean, it harkens back to some of his best work. Amanda, what did you think? It seemed like you were vibrating at a very high level last night. So I'd like to say I haven't read any of the takes and I won't be reading them. I did think last night, like to text both of you to be like, send me the Tom Cruise memes. And then I won't be reading them. I did think last night, like, to text both of you to be like, send me the Tom Cruise memes and then I didn't do it

because I wanted to exist in my own universe. I'm assuming some people have pointed out that it was not the most respectful tone of voice, which, fair, okay. It was not. My man was heated. He was in the moment. And also he was reading a speech

that Aaron Sorkin freaking wrote for him. Full code red, a few good men too. Are you serious? I was so full of joy. I was also like 30 minutes late to this because I was off the internet and then I logged on and we were just like kind of living in that hour and a half that Chris was talking about of just pure joy and just yelling, we are the gold standard to each other over and over again, which we are the gold standard of something. I don't know what on this podcast. Tremendous speech writing. Again, was it written ahead of time? Was it prepared? Who could say? I would love to hear everybody's theories. It did have a cadence to it. It was effective.

I do also support taking COVID restrictions and guidelines really seriously. For the record, speak with respect, but also wear your damn mask. And it was a tremendous performance, as Chris said. And between this and how to turn off your motion smoothing video, I just feel like everything that I need to know in life

in 2020, I learned from Tom Cruise. And that says something about 2020 I guess some of my favorite moments from this I guess speech include that's what I sleep with every night the future of this fucking industry which is incredible and like you know that's obviously absurd and over the top, but also kind of true. Like if they if a movie like Mission Impossible seven, I think it's seven can't happen and can't be made. Then movies like this can't be made for a long time. And so in a in a weird way, I certainly don't support the tone of voice and some of the language that Tom Cruise used speaking to the crew. But, you know, he's right.

Don't fucking give people COVID. Nobody wants that. A lot of people's jobs on the line. And he asked people to take their responsibility seriously. Great. Everybody take your responsibility seriously. And, you know, maybe, I guess, don't curse if that offends people. Language is fine.

Whatever. I liked him saying that he is on the phone every night with, you know, studios, producers, and insurance companies. It's the idea of Tom Cruise calling in from Germany and calling Flo from Progressive and just being like, I need renter's insurance packaged with this flood

insurance. It's great stuff. I have a 2009 Kia. What can you do for me? I'm grateful to Tom Cruise for giving us one last great moment of movie magic because that's really what this was. This was movie magic.

This was unexpected. Amanda, you pointed out a couple of the things, the contributions, the digital contributions that Cruise has made this and of course, the motion smoothing video,

which we've been joking about recently because HBO Max is putting all their movies on tvs next year but also you may recall he led us back into movie theaters with chris mccorry to screen the film tenant right which was um an interesting choice by him i believe he was in london when he went to go see the movie amanda you and i saw this movie about i guess three three and a half months ago at a drive-in Chris you did not you did not join us that day which was rude I needed to watch it the way Christopher Nolan

intended on my MacBook Pro with headphones is that really how you watched it yeah you're an icon it blew my mind you can get it cranked up so loud. Get the, get that closed captioning going just the way I like it.

You know, adjust the brightness. Okay. Okay. So let's just start here. One, Chris, what'd you think of the movie?

Tell me how you felt about it. Loved it. I loved it. And it is, it's going to be a great, what if, if you guys ever do, you know how like on Stadio or, or, or ringer FC pod, they do these great what if pods if you guys do what if i would love to know

what would the impact on like pop culture have been if tenant had actually gotten to like a mass american audience and we had all been able to be like i'm inverted all summer you know that would have been the shit i mean a lot of things would have been cool this year but i think it would have been a really really fun moment for this movie to come out in theaters i thought it was possibly weirdly because it's two and a half hours long the best paced nolan movie i mean you could make the argument since memento i found this movie to be so propulsive and so exciting and you know I think we're going to talk a lot about its comprehensibility, but I was absolutely thrilled. I've watched it one and a half times, and I'm so happy that it's in my library now. I'm just going to watch some

of these scenes over and over and over again and try and figure out how he did them. Before we get into the details of the movie, and Amanda and I, I think in August or September basically walked minute by minute through the plot of the movie. So you can go back and visit that episode. If you want to get the entire picture of everything that happened in tenant to the best of our comprehension, but Chris, did you find that part of the reason that you liked it? And I'm saying this because I think Amanda and I felt this way when we saw it the first time, and I definitely felt it when I revisited it,

is just that we didn't get very many movies that were like, we are going for it. This is a big ass movie, and it has major set pieces, and it has an absurd premise, and it has major action and movie stars looking dashing. Do you think that it was influenced by the fact that we just didn't get anything else like Tenet year yeah and i also think that you even with the blockbusters that we usually do get around this around this time of year that tenant would have been released

in the theaters and a lot of the blockbusters that we're looking at uh starting with wonder woman and going into next year it's not that you know what's necessarily going to happen beat by beat but because it's pre-existing ip you kind of's not that you know what's necessarily going to happen beat by beat, but because it's pre-existing IP, you kind of have an understanding of what you're going to get. You have a feel. And Tenet, for as much as it probably confounded most people, and

at times confounded me, had that kind of wonder of, whoa, what is going on? We're in Talon now? We're in Trieste? We're in Talon now. We're in Trieste. We're in Kiev. Is this going backwards? Is this going forwards?

It had that kind of, I don't know, movie magic, if I can get all mank with it. You know what I mean? It really did feel kind of like this guy is one of two or three, five people in the history of movies who can make something that feels this way. And you're just at the foot of the master there. Amanda, did you rewatch?

Of course. What'd you think? What'd you think on viewing too? Well, I love this movie. I think it's really fun. I agree with Chris that in addition to kind of the surprise of what's going on in this movie and in a positive way, although I also have, what's going on in this movie and in a positive way, although I also have some what's going on in a more confused way, but just kind

of the, the non-IP non like checklist of just kind of, I don't know what's going to happen. There is also just an amazing, how did they do this element to so many of these set pieces? It is like, you know, visually engaging. And I agree with Chris well-paced. I was not bored and just impressive. It is like out in the world, which obviously in 2020 just is really exhilarating and just also imaginative and, and bonkers. I will say respectfully, Christopher Nolan, this movie looked so much better on my tv than at a drive-in it like it's insane how much better the viewing experience was for me at home I'm going to say that again I had a tremendous viewing experience at home watching Tenet much better than the one

I had in a theater obviously I saw it at a drive-in. We had a lovely, um, atmospheric drive-in experience. I would say Sean, that was like one of our weirdest 2020 days. Cause there was like a wildfire and my power went out and it was, you know, we drove forever. Um, it encapsulated a lot and it was nice to be in adjacent cars with you and have that event experience, but I could see a lot better and I could hear a lot better. And it looked better. Based on all accounts,

it sounds like one of the biggest critiques people had of this theatrically was being able to understand the dialogue. And it's pretty huge to be able to go back 10 seconds very easily with the touch of a finger to your remote or put on closed caption the touch of a finger to your remote or put on closed captioning if you do want to do it that way.

And there's a few scenes where I noticed pre-important exposition happening underneath the Ludwig Gorenson, first of all, Hall of Fame fucking score. Unbelievable. Underneath that score.

And this guy's like, here's how the Freeport looks just like the Pentagon. And this guy's like, here's how our, the Freeport looks just like the Pentagon. And it's like, but it's actually like, if you were in a theater and you were just like, I'm reaching for my goobers and you would have missed it. You would have missed that whole part.

I completely, I mean, I agree with everything that both of you guys are saying. I found it so much more comprehensible. So, and frankly, more engaging because my level of confusion was lower and the clarity was higher.

And so being able to grasp more specifically, not just the plot, though the plot is certainly confusing, but the concepts, which I don't think are necessarily sound. And I have been more critical than almost anybody about how unsound a lot of Christopher Nolan's concepts are. But at least getting a chance to tangle with them in the way that you kind of need to buy in at least a little bit was hugely helpful for me. It also let me kind of focus on some of the things that I had a harder time with the first time. Like you're saying, Amanda, I was having a great time at the drive-in when we saw it, but when we were two hours into the movie and the final the sort of the inverted raid

begins like i i was just lost like i had no idea what what the point it was supposed to be like i didn't know what they were after i didn't know what the goals were i didn't know who was blue team who was red team none of that stuff this time i felt like i had a way more sense of just the general forward and backward momentum of the movie, which means a lot. It means a lot when you're trying to enjoy a movie. And I think that that accounts for something that is interesting. I don't want to spend too much time on this, but this is probably the most divisive Christopher Nolan movie ever. There are a lot of people who hate this movie, who thought it was really bad. And there are a number of reasons for that. I

think some of the people think that it was incomprehensible, which is understandable. I think the characterization and the sort of like the development of the figures in the movie, people seem to have a problem with. And then also, I think just the sort of like general intensity and noisiness of it, people didn't necessarily think was successful. I'll be curious to see if the tide turns on that. And Chris, if we get something that resembles what you were suggesting, which is like a meme economy, you know, a kind of a fun economy around Tenet instead of this anxiety-laden movie that only half of America could see. And when they did it, it felt dangerous. I always remember just, I mean, aside from the memes, one of my most crystal clear pop culture memories is walking out of the Matrix for the first time.

And me and my friend, we were like 19 or 20 or however old we were when we saw the matrix and, uh, us like being relatively mature people who were like, do you think I could jump over this highway right now? You know, like legitimately. And I feel like you want it to be a spoon bender. No,

but I feel like I, I would have had some of those fumes coming out of tenant if i had gotten to see it at the arc light now i i want to talk about a little bit about um the way this movie essentially reveals itself with the reveals at the end and how once you know what happens at the end the reverse flow of the movie makes so much more sense you can we can get into the mechanics of inversion and entropy and all that stuff which like i certainly don't have the education to reverse flow of the movie makes so much more sense. We can get into the mechanics of inversion and entropy and all that stuff, which I certainly don't have the education to even talk about on any kind of intelligent level. But what I do understand is the way in which characters interact with each

other. And once you know what you know about Neil and protagonist's relationship, the entire movie makes sense. Because that's actually one of the weirdest parts about it is like, is this happening in a dream? Why is neil acting like this with this guy like he seems kind of really just down to do whatever but also like needling him a little bit and knows he likes diet coke or you know he knows he likes coke more than soda water or whatever and all that stuff makes sense once you get to the end you know and and i think that that's a classic nolan thing where it's like does it matter more once you know the end of the magic trick you know to to see to think about all the prestige in the turn or do you need to be able to enjoy it the first time

through without knowing anything that you would know at the end and that's kind of also what this movie is about well so to that point, Chris, I had a prompt that I wanted to share with you guys. And I've seen this on a couple of reviews on Letterboxd where people have said this movie might have worked better if Neil were the protagonist and the protagonist were the sidekick. Now, I'm not saying I agree with that, but I wanted to share that suggestion with you guys. I just want to say right off the bat this movie would be better if it were a different movie is not good criticism i agree i hate that you know and and sometimes i slip into it and i know we all do you you can't help it but like no thanks um number two i just want to say that like what is neil up to in this

movie is like definitely not the most confusing part of the movie in any way, shape or form. I just, it's, it's just really not. It's like, Oh,

is he a spy? Is he betraying him or not? I guess I'm the only person in the world is like, I got all the time travel stuff. Like what's up with Neil though? Yeah. What's up with Neil's sleeves? Also,

I guess as a Robert Pattinson fan, I'm just willing to credit him for just like being a little weird, which is a thing I love about the performance. I love all of the performances in this movie. I think it's really well cast. And I love the chemistry between John David Washington and Robert Pattinson. But I would really enjoy a second, like a tenet to where Robert Pattinson in character just like explains what happens for a while.

I would watch that. They want to do a DVD extra. I'm available. You know, I was thinking about this John David Washington. The first time I saw it, I probably didn't fully appreciate what he's doing and what kind of part this is, but it's very similar to a lot of Nolan protagonists in that they have to be kind of steely and a little bit difficult to read their intentions and they're very mission oriented. But man, he is a badass action star. The fight sequences, the physical work, the cheese grater, all of that stuff is amazing. He's awesome. And obviously he's a former athlete. He played football in college and Denzel

Washington's son. He's got incredible presence, all this stuff. But I was mesmerized by him the second time around and really much more appreciated what the movie, frankly, was with him at the center of it. And that's another thing. I mean, he's truly unique in the constellation of Nolan central characters. There has never been a Nolan central character who convincingly says to another guy

when he's getting patted down, you have to buy me dinner first. All of Nolan's's other characters are central characters are pretty inert you know like they're pretty like we there's lots of scholarship about how they all look like christopher nolan or whatever but like for the most part you're hard-pressed to remember the their names if they're not named bruce wayne you know what i mean like they're they are supposed to be um kind of not cardboard but like i think you're allowed like he uses them as this sort

of blank canvas. And then he populates like the movies with these great kind of ensembles. I thought John David Washington was phenomenal in this movie. Like I can understand why people might be like, that's not how you should behave in a Nolan movie. Or it's not time for jokes or throwing up deuces to guys as you like drive off in your speedboat. But to me, this is what this really was like Nolan having way more fun than he's had maybe since like the first Batman movie, you know? I completely agree. So let's just do some. Okay, Amanda, what do you want to say? I was just going to say there is something interesting. Chris mentioned, you know, the history of all of the characters looking like Christopher

Nolan. And I do think you could say that Robert Pattinson is styled somewhat like Christopher Nolan. But it's interesting that his standard is. Yeah. And like probably intentional that his standard is now not the center of the character, the center of the movie, but a side character interacting like with the protagonist. Again, I don't want to read like too much deep.

This is about filmmaking into this movie just because i don't think it can support it and also once again i do not understand what happened in this movie but it it's fun and i just think john what i just think john david washington wears it with such ease um that physicality and also kind of that debonair quality that i find immensely appealing. Once again, I would encourage both of you to steal his fits from this movie for your own life. 2021, it can happen. I'm dedicated to Branagh. I was going to say, from a

physique perspective, I have more in common with Andre Sator, I think, than the protagonist, unfortunately, for me. Catch me getting that Pfizer jab and then putting on a linen shirt tucked in real high up. That's going to be me. Catch me getting that Pfizer jab and then putting on a linen shirt tucked in real high up. You know, that's going to be me. Catch me at the beach this summer

wearing slides and a scuba uniform. That's me. Andre Sator, baby. Chris, you mentioned the set pieces. Let's just talk about favorite moments because there's like seven or eight truly awesome sequences in this movie um what were some of your favorites chris well um as a connoisseur

of cold open heists i want to just give my man a round of applause because this this was the the they tapped into the main artery with this one um I know that this is going to come off a little bit gross, but I wish this movie was rated R. Like it was just up at the edge of gnarly and they could have taken it there, but then there would be like a lot. I think obviously I understand why it's not R and it probably would have thrown off

the vibe of the film itself. But to see something like that opera house raid conducted in that fashion and then sometimes it's just like, oh, I got punched, I fell. You know, like that stuff felt raid conducted in that fashion. And then sometimes it's just like, oh, I got punched, I fell. You know, like that stuff felt a little bit false, but I just like the harmony between the camera movement and the Goranson soundtrack and the movement,

there was like, this is a lot of running. There's a lot of, this film feels like it's always like kind of like propelling itself, obviously because of its themes as well. So yeah i think that that you just from the jump you get that but i i personally think i watched it i think i've seen it three times in the last 24 hours that freeport heist is among the best set pieces i've ever seen in my life like that's a fucking plane man that's like a real plane i completely agree the one thing that I picked up on when I watched it yesterday was I think the first five or six shots of the movie, the camera is in motion.

Like it's constantly zooming in, pulling back, moving left and right. And like, that's a very particular choice because of what you're describing, Chris. Like, I don't know if that's an emotional theme necessarily, but it's a storytelling device, you know, to say that like we are constantly in motion as people. And this movie is going to reflect that. There are a handful of moments in the movie where I picked up where that wasn't the case, where like they're making a plan for the plane heist, for example, and they're in a hotel room with Mahir and the camera just like goes down on a map and then it goes on a character's face and it's like a more conventional movie. But those moments are really few and far between. Amanda, what about you?

What sequences jumped out at you the second time around? We've already mentioned the cheese grater and it jumped out at me from the beginning. But just, Chris, the kitchen scene is like fairly gnarly. I mean, I guess it's not gory, but just in terms of John David Washington being like, I'm an action star and just like watch me deck a bunch of dudes

and just walk out and fix my suit like nothing happened really speaks to my interests. And I know what Amanda's favorite scene in the movie is actually. Oh, what is it? It's the Robert Pattinson dry run through the warehouse. Like it's got to be like the heist before the heist. yeah when he's just pretending and that's when he's doing like his full chris nolan impersonation blimey um i i do really like the free ports also didn't know about free ports until this movie so that's just been like a whole world of education they're real you guys don't know i've actually been podcasting from a free port this entire time so that i don't have to pay taxes on my takes.

And I really like the reverse bungee jumping in Mumbai, which is beautiful and also, you know, a pretty literalization of the themes of the movie in a different way and very clever. And again, the ease with which they just kind of unclip their harness and disappear. I think that I like this scale and we're just going for it of these set pieces. You can really feel it. But I also appreciate at the end of each one, they're like, no big deal. We did it. That's my vibe. Respect.

Yeah. Gosh, there are so many more too. I mean, I think the, and they all feel like, and this is something I wanted to talk with you guys about. I feel like this is the most self-aware Christopher Nolan movie. I think the fact that he is the sidekick and not the protagonist of the movie, you know, his stand-in, the fact that there are more jokes than ever, the fact that there is a kind of like winking quality to a lot of this work, and a lot of the best scenes feel like self-homages, you know, like the big the MacGuffin truck raid, you know, where they're going to get

what they think is plutonium, but is actually a piece of the algorithm is just a riff on the Dark Knight truck chase through the tunnels. You know, like the there are so many of these, like the corridor fight in the kitchen and then the shootout later

when they're in the in the Freeport that's like that's Inception that's the hallway fight in Inception you know the plane diversion the crashing the plane

into the building that's Chris's introduction to his favorite character Bane in The Dark Knight Rises you know like the big cross-cutting emotional finales of Interstellar

are the same with the Branagh and Elizabeth Debicki character at the end of the film and the big raid at theting emotional finales of interstellar are the same with the Brana and Elizabeth to Bicky character at the end of the film and the big rate at the end of the film. Like these are, you can make the case that this is like being derivative of oneself, but I get the feeling like he knows what he's doing. You know,

he knows that he's doing almost like a greatest hits and seeing how far he can push it with this super complex idea. And I And I actually really like that. I think that sucked out what I feel is some of the pretension of some of Christopher Nolan's movies. He doesn't seem as worried about... He certainly is worried about explaining the movie to you, but he's not as worried about telling you why you should feel deeply about the movie, which actually moved me, ironically. I also like the use of recurring motifs

within the film itself. Like there's obviously a lot of echoes of other Nolan movies, like the very final sort of climax where John David Washington and Eric Taylor Johnson are trying to get into the gate to stop Volkov from dropping the thing and does whatever.

That's essentially where Bane beats up Batman. But even within the film itself, I really liked the recurring use of gas and masks and being able to breathe. And then even the name, people have talked about this on the internet, but Sator and Rotus are the same word. It's just a word game. They're all these little flourishes. And it feels a lot more, I don't know, improvisatory in some ways. It's like he's trying stuff and then moving on quickly and not deliberating on it and not trying to be like, just so you know, this is what this means. And it's important because I

kind of read a couple of physics books. He's just like, go, go, go. And it all goes back to the Clemens Posey scene where she's like, don't try to understand it, feel it. I think the same is true for the scene between Pattinson and John David Washington near to the end of the film when they start talking about the grandfather paradox, where they're getting into these very heavy concepts they're kind of just doing the exposition dump but then the conclusion at the end of it is like I don't fucking know who knows this is the parallel universe theory who the hell knows which is kind of the point like I kind of wish all of the Nolan movies had that attitude a little bit more because it'd be easier for me to get on board with a lot of what he's trying to do. I really appreciate, and we talked about this at the time, Sean, but on

viewing it again, really brought home for me that like the second half of the movie is just like, let's do it again in reverse, which is such a, it's just a flex in a way. And I, you know, there's like a sense of mischief in this movie and a sense of like, let's just go for it. That that encapsulates of being like, why not? You want, you want to see it again? You want to see it bigger? You want to see it different? Like watch what I can do. That is really fun. And to me is a little less self-serious than some of the other Nolan projects or there's a self-awareness to it. Chris, I know that Amanda and I had a really hard time with this. Do you understand the temporal pincer movement? Yeah, definitely.

For sure. Okay, break it down. So there's this cat and it's in a shoebox, right? No. I thought that one of the more interesting scenes was Aaron Taylor Johnson giving his here's how this raid is going to work speech. Because it reminded me a lot of the Mark Wahlberg talking about Shakespeare and the gambler speech. Like,

I would love to know what notes Aaron Taylor Johnson was asking for on set. Because he's pretty convincing, but it's like a school lecture. And you're just like, so this group has already been there giving you this information, but when we get there, we will also see them. All of the ideas of the turnstile and seeing yourself,

I know that there is at least theoretical science and research behind these ideas. But for me, this one was so fun. This movie was so fun because it did not require an understanding of that. There are definitely moments where you're like, what the fuck is going on?

When the two Brannas are talking in the interrogation room, you're just like, am I tripping? What is happening here? And I just found it was just for some reason really just easy to go with it here.

And I get really annoyed at plot crap in big blockbusters. But for some reason for this one, I was like, I get, I get like,

you can visualize what a pincer is and that's all you need to do. You know, it's like these two things coming at each other. Is that what a pincer is a lobster claw right now yeah yeah oh so they're coming at each other they're okay squeezing

they're squeezing this thing from two time from two time angles i have literally no idea what happens in this movie i just like i especially the scene that chris mentioned when they're in the the turn style that that's what it's called and they're talking at each other when they're in the turnstile. That's what it's called. And they're talking at each other and they're like different colors. And I just, I don't know what happens after that. And I don't care. The stuff-

Yeah. No, the stuff in that turnstile is where the movie just like melts your frontal lobe a little bit. And there's even rules that they bring up where like, I think where I think at one point Wheeler tells John David Washington you gotta wear this suit.

You can't see yourself. Your particles will explode. I feel like he sees himself six times after that and everything seems fine. You can't come into... You can't interact. You can't physically... That's why he'd have to wear that whole bodysuit apparently apparently then annihilation to do yeah yes yeah this is another one where i

thought i had cracked part of it because i was like oh the reason they invented that you can't breathe in like inversion is so that everyone has to wear masks and there's like a clear visual signal that oh this person is inverted because they're like wearing a mask but that doesn't hold at all i thought for like 10 minutes that I understood in which time in universe everybody was in and then the masks went away and everyone could breathe. And I was like, okay, then I don't know again,

but it just, you can let it wash over you. And I guess I'm less bothered by plot stuff. I guess there's also something about, because this plot is like quote unquote grounded in physics, which again, I'm not a physicist, so I don't know. But I respond to it by being like, this is too complicated and I'm just not going to try to understand it instead of being like, this is really like a silly. What's the Thanos thing called?

The wrist? The infinity gauntlet. I am inevitable. Thank you very much. And what are the things? The infinity stones. The infinity stones. Yeah.

Okay. Right. But see, that's just stupid. Please show some fucking respect to Thanos. Jesus Christ. Yeah. That's the thing. I don't respect that MacGuffin, but I do respect it when it's like wrapped in physics or whatever,

which is snobby of me. I know. But I was just kind of like, okay, whatever. This is maybe some physicist will figure it out. In the meantime, I'm just going to watch them throw things at each other. Yeah, it's just a Bond movie. You don't have to understand necessarily what the MacGuffin is in the Bond movie. You just need to know that it means the end of the world. And that's the same thing in this. The consequences, the stakes are the end of human existence. And that should be enough. Nolan gave this interview to the Washington Post this week. He's been on a bit of an interview tour. I think we'll talk about that

just a little bit here. But he was asked, I thought, with a very good question about how to tangle with this stuff. Jeff Edgers interviewed him and he said, there's this point in Tenet where John David Washington is the protagonist and Robert Pattinson's Neil are talking about sort of what's in play, inversion and entropy and Richard Feynman. And Neil says, does your head hurt? I'm also interested in this balance because the complicated between the complicated and the accessible, I watched interstellar with my 10 year old. And I know you're not making movies for 10 year olds, but he loved it and immediately wanted to watch it again with tenant. He eventually walked away. He just couldn't follow it. And then what Nolan said, I thought was interesting because I think it applies specifically to this

movie. If not his others, he said, what I find is people who just watch the movies to be entertained and have a good time, they get the movies and they understand the movies far better than people who fight the movies, who feel they're in some kind of chess match with the movie while they're watching it. And the reality is the reason people get frustrated like that is because it's not a level playing field. I've had 20 years to think about these ideas, so it's not a level playing field in that sense. It's not meant to be a chess match between the filmmaker and the audience. It's entertainment. I don't know why it's been hard for me to accept Christopher Nolan as entertainment frequently over the last 20 years, but it has been for me.

I've struggled with a bunch of his movies because I do feel like I'm in a chess match with him, not really in The Dark Knight and not really in Memento. And there are a couple of movies of his that I really love. But Inception and Interstellar in particular, I think are the movies that are kind of being addressed here in addition to Tenet. And maybe it's just because he was like, I'm making a Bond movie that it felt like a little bit easier to accept what he was up to here. But I don't know. Can you guys help me understand why I'm more comfortable with this movie? So I don't think that this movie has anything on the surface, at least. I think you can derive some stuff from it, but there's nothing in this movie that it's trying to say. The movie is about a bunch of really cool guys trying to save the world. And that is also what

the movie is about. Like there is no, like, this is a movie about breaking into dreams, but it's also about what do we really know about ourselves? You know, it's, there is no, it's also about with Ted. I don't think, I think you could say, you know, there's all these things about what would you do differently if you knew this

or what would you do if you could guarantee that. But this movie is essentially like a thrill ride and you're supposed to experience it in real time with the movie itself and then be excited and talk about the thrill of seeing it. Whereas I think Inception and Interstellar were like puzzles to be solved. And if you could solve the puzzle, this greater emotional kind of understanding of it would be revealed. And also both of those movies just took themselves way more seriously. There's a lot more crying in both of those movies. There are jokes in this. It's funny. I think that performances of this, of certainly John David Washington, Robert Pattinson are very different, as we've said,

from other Nolan characters. They just seem more comfortable. They're self-aware. It's, it is like more on the surface and more willing to just let you enjoy it. I think I, I appreciate that Christopher Nolan quote, because that's definitely how I watched this movie. I'm not going to be able to explain it or go to war with it. But I do think the Inception and Interstellar ask you to kind of dig in a bit more. And this is this is pleasure principle. This is just kind of like, look what we can do and what they can do is pretty cool. There's no dead wife in this movie. The dead wife lives, actually.

You know, there's no haunted trauma lurking behind something, anything. This movie is about what it's about. Let's talk about Nolan a little bit more. He's having quite a year. Is he? Well, it depends on if we want to cast blame. I mean, I feel like he has kind of emerged as the most famous director i feel like he is the the modern movie director right now he

kind of holds the crown he's the person when you think of a self-serious auteur but also somebody who draws attention every time they decide to do something i mean is there anybody else who's really competing with him at this point not on the box office level but also i like tenant did not do well at the u.s box office you know i think like and obviously there are a lot of um exceptions and reasons why and it's all very complicated and 2020 asterisk asterisk asterisk but it's interesting that he was certainly like in the center of the frame this year. And I think that he is in the center of the conversation about what the movie industry will be going forward because of the types of movies that he makes and how he wants people to see them and also how people have

traditionally seen them and how they're financed and how they'll be financed going forward. I think you could strain the metaphor by saying that he is the protagonist of the 2020 movie year and he is trying to save the world by going back in time to a moment when theatrical moviegoing was the center of the culture that he is helping to create. I don't know. I don't know if I'm like empathetic or less empathetic to him in general. I find his place in the culture fascinating right now. Like my gut is this is going to be the most successful PVOD movie of all time. I think people are going to watch this movie

nonstop for the next few weeks because there's not a whole lot else going on. Many people wish they could have seen it in theaters. And you're right, Amanda, it did not do well at the US box office, but it did do okay overseas. Not amazingly well, but it did pretty well. And it's a movie that needs to be returned to. You almost have to watch it a second time to not grasp it necessarily, but I think to feel it like you're saying. I don't know, Chris, where do you think Nolan stands right now in the

movie culture? Well, in terms of his just sheer visual skills, I think it's probably unparalleled right now, at least in terms of making action set pieces. This movie with the car chase, the Freeport heist,

the opera house siege, and the final raid on the underground bunker. Those are four of the best action scenes I've seen in the century. We were texting last night, and I'm like, that's James Cameron shit. The idea of scope, the idea of how to cut, how to move, how to place music over it, how to direct actors within those scenes,

getting actors who look believable in those moments. Like that seems like Robert Pattinson driving. Not all the time. Obviously they're going backwards and there's all sorts of trickery going on, but you know, I keep, go ahead. I just, I think he was driving at some point, not for the stunt stuff, but right. And, and I think when was driving at some point, not for the stunt stuff, but anyway. And I think when you look at, like, I just keep thinking about the plane sequence because that is, that's what he's talking about when he's like, we can't do this otherwise.

If we take away theatrical movie making, we can't dream on this level. Now, there's a huge argument to be made where it's like, what does that actually contribute to society to have a, you know, jumbo jet go through an empty storage facility? Do we need that? No, no, we didn't need that. But that is what he's talking about when he's talking about scale and scope and the amount of people who are working at the top of their craft to be able to pull something like that off, like the stunt coordinators and the prop masters who were like, I've never done anything

like that in 35 years. There's shit that happens in that car chase where I'm like, I don't understand this. I don't understand how they were doing it at this speed and coordinating these kinds of this dance between these vehicles. I think

that when you look at, if that stuff matters to you, he's the best there is. And I really don't see that there being anybody that close. I don't know. I want to try to figure out what is going to happen with him in particular. Obviously, he's currently waging this kind of public campaign against Warner Media because they've made this decision to move all the movies to HBO Max. He's been very public about how he feels like this was a violation of the trust with the talent. He feels like this is bad for the movie experience and maybe even the opportunity to make the kinds of movies, Chris, that you're describing. Amanda, where do you think he's going to make movies

and what kind of movies is he going to make? Gosh, I have no idea. Because as Chris said, he's both singular at being able to pull off movies at this scale. And also just people are not going to be making movies at this scale going forward. And I think it means a lot to me personally to have a plane go into a warehouse in Oslo or wherever. Like, you know, I think it's great to see. How great is that scene where Pattinson's like, now you're going to think I'm being dramatic. It's really good. Well, not out of the air. I'm not going to crash it out of the air. I know. And they're also just like chatting in the middle of London or whatever.

But, you know, the finances, which were the strongest part of his argument and the argument that he finally made his way to in the kind of the week-long or two-week-long campaign of just being like, if movies aren't released in theaters and we don't have the theater business, then a lot of people are going to lose their jobs and we're not going to be able to make movies at this scale anymore because it's not economically feasible. I think that's true. And I think there are a lot of people who still believe in Christopher Nolan. I think you do also have to look at the scoreboard of Tenet box office this year. And again, huge amount of asterisks. It was released in a pandemic. Theaters in New York and LA never opened. And it still did okay globally, but

the movie industry does not like respond well to films underperforming. And I don't think they're going to look at that and be like, okay, so what we need to do is double down on massive tentpole theatrical experiences. In fact, we know that that's not how they're responding to it because HBO Warner brothers decided to release its 2021 slate to HBO Max. Again, a lot of that has to do with the pandemic. And will theaters be open? And probably other aspects of their financials and having movies sitting on the shelves and

what are you supposed to do? But I don't know. I hope that he gets to keep making movies. He seems like he's burned the bridge with Warner Brothers at this point. Again, people get over stuff all the time. And if they're willing to invest, you know. And if they, like, make a show of, like, making good in public and being like, we still believe in filmmakers. And so we're going to give Christopher Nolan, like, this much to theatrical release. And, and he like make, maybe they'll do that.

You could see it happening. I don't think there's a question of whether he'll make movies again. He definitely will. His track record is second to none in terms of being able to drive success to, to, to any kind of a story. I do wonder if he is now entering the phase of one of his heroes, Stanley Kubrick, where it became harder and harder for Kubrick to convince studios to finance the crazy projects he wanted to do. And obviously a lot of filmmakers deal with this and a lot of visionary, quote unquote, visionary filmmakers deal with this, but this does feel like a crossroads and i think chris i'm curious what you think about this if this was batman 4 if this was a different kind of christopher nolan movie that had a built-in kind of level of awareness and intellectual property would we be

giving him more of a pass for the underperformance and just say well obviously this movie would have just crushed if it was not a pandemic. But because Tenet, you know, it seems like the kind of movie that gets like a C score on CinemaScore and the kind of movie that a lot of people are like grousing about on message boards because they didn't understand it. And so now it has this like, in some circles,

like a negative reputation. Yeah, to me, this is a perfect Christopher Nolan movie. Christopher Nolan movie is not Stanley Kubrick. He's not trying to raise money for four years to get final cut on Eyes Wide Shut. This is Batman 4 in everything but name. You know what I mean? Everything about it is like a force for good fighting a force for evil, often wearing masks, sometimes in Bane's lair. Like, it's Batman 4. We got it.

Like, you know, if you need to know about, like, this dude being upset about his dad, like, go watch the first three Batmans, but this is Batman 4.

Christopher Nolan is not abandoning any, like, principles that he had. Like, this is not, like, this is not, it's not a guy who's like, oh, I can't make Phantom Threat anymore. He makes billion-dollar grossing action movies for everybody in the world to enjoy.

So I always think that there's going to be a market for that. And frankly, I thought that his comments that he made about Warners were probably incredibly well... thought that his comments that he made about warners were probably incredibly um like well like that was a strategy like he's not gonna make a movie next year so he's gonna probably go back into production on something once the vaccine has been rolled out pretty far and wide so when he's like hey come and get me to paramount or to whoever like that's savvy he did this he probably did this on purpose he's not like god, God damn it. I'm fucking, it really means a lot to me to work for Warner Brothers.

Like it's like, I'm sure he's like, I think that's a good joke. Paramount doesn't have any money to give to him. So that's the only thing. Whichever one Tom Cruise decide to save,

maybe he'll work for Tom Cruise. Everyone's saying Universal, that that's the place for him to go. That's the place that has effectively navigated relationships with the movie theaters and the exhibition industry through all of this this time that's obviously one of the major historical uh uh movie studios and also is like good at supporting talent you know that's

that's the place that supports blumhouse and jordan peele that's the place that supports the fast and the furious franchise that's a place that has a thriving animation division like universal does a lot of things well. So it wouldn't shock me. And, you know, they also put out like News of the World by Paul Greengrass. They're still making old school go to the movies movies. So if he went there, it wouldn't stun me. I guess what do you guys want to see him do? Like what kind of a movie would you want to see him make?

I agree with you, Chris, that in some ways he's kind of making the same movie over and over again. But he is clearly making some choices genre wise where he's like here's my space movie here's my war movie here's my bond movie you know he's very clearly going through like a checklist of sorts at this point my favorite online theory right now is that um tenet takes place in the nolan verse like it takes place in the world that is interstellar and that like because interstellar has like their famine destroys the earth and the world. And Branagh's character is like in the future, this world,

the world has been destroyed by environmental disaster. So I had to come back in time. Um, what do I want to see him do next? Honestly, I honestly would take Tenet too. Like honestly, like when Pattinson's like,

yeah, we had a lot of really cool adventures. You'll see. I was like, sure. Like, let's cool adventures. You'll see. I was like, sure. Like, let's do it. Like you guys want to do like an Alpine adventure.

Do you guys want to do, you know, like a jungle adventure? Like, like I'm, I'm definitely down for that. I know that they take a lot of years. I,

I've enjoyed how over the last, in the post dark night rises era, like I've been genuinely surprised by the choices he's made in terms of the material he's done. So it's hard to predict. Amanda, anything you'd want to see from Chris Nolan? Well, Tenet 2 in a lot of ways

would be both the movie that people on message boards were like, why don't you tell it from Neil's perspective? And also would, you know, explain to me, help Neil explain what happened in Tenet 1.

And it would make sense, right? It's like now we're telling it from one side. Now we're telling it from the other side. I think that would be fun. That would require working at Warner Brothers though. Yeah, that's tough. I don't know. You could see them trying to make nice.

Weirder things have happened. Anyway, I don't know. A musical? What else is he supposed to do? What do we want him to do? I mean, in a lot of ways, Tenet is a musical like it kind of does remind me of like lots of choreography it's it's choreographed set pieces and then like when you're like what's this what's 42nd Street about you're like oh well uh you know but like the the images stay in your in

you know in your brain exactly guys I want to wrap this conversation up by asking you both something that Chris you just alluded to which is in the same way that was Thanos right has emerged as a talking point. Is Andres Sator right? Like, should we let him destroy the Earth if all we're doing is killing the Earth and we know that our future ancestors will want to kill us all because of what we've done to the Earth? Not all at once, guys. I'm trying to figure out whether or not do you think Green New Deal has a better chance of passing if Sator

throws his George Soros money behind it? We need to get the algorithm on the floor of Congress and say that this is why we have to pass the Green New Deal. Because otherwise our future ancestors will come back to annihilate us all. Can we talk about how the algorithm just looks like... We need Moscow Mitch, Schumer,

and Roy Blunt. Stolzk 12 Mitch? On the Congress, the floor of the Senate, like Aaron Taylor Johnson, John David Washington, and Robert Pattinson, and they're all standoff and they're all like, you know, we get to take our little pieces and go to the far ends of the earth and never look for

me. But if I see you, I'm going to kill you. That would be like a great end of the Senate. How much fun is Branagh having in this movie? It's amazing. It is the hammiest thing I've seen in years. And I'm not bothered by it at all. He gets to play Roman Abramovich. He seems like he's having a great time. And i don't i don't know where they filmed the vietnam scenes but looks absolutely beautiful and i hope they had a lovely vacation uh and on the yacht and got used to it when they weren't filming if i was to becky i'd be like do you have to spit on me like is that is that what this movie is like this it's not on the waterfront man like you can just we can just kind of like massage this this one bit a bit you know

i did think um the other thing that was pretty effective was the disposal of satyr's body after he is killed which is i didn't really realize the first time that part of the reason that he was had all the suntan lotion on his back was to make him more slick when she slid him off the deck that was just great stuff that's very smart i didn't realize that till you said it I still just want to say the first time that I watched this movie, as soon as she's talking about the woman diving off the boat, I was like, it's her. It's her. I feel really proud of myself. I don't understand physics, but I knew that it was her diving off the boat. Again, beautiful dive. Whoever the stunt diver in is that one. Great. Reddit Dobbins strikes again. What do you guys think

of the idea that Clemens Posey is the scientist in the future who kills herself? Ooh. That's great. That's a sick theory that was on the internet.

I haven't seen that one. How? That makes sense. I don't know. What? Like when she's older in the future but they say it's

generations later so did she travel back haven't are we like how many generations have we been alive for this year it feels like hundreds

but is there there's we're we're like I'm Gen Y you're a millennial right Amanda

me Amanda yes I'm millennial and then there's Gen Z so that's at least three. And then you got X. They're still around. The boomers are still kicking. So we have... Chris, you're not Gen X?

I'm 42. Is that Gen X? I'm Gen Y. You're the most Gen X person I've ever met in my entire life, just so you know. No, I'm not. That's insulting. Actually, no, it's not. Is it? You're my Gen X icon. You're how I understand the 90s. Me and Ethan Hawke. That's right.

Yeah. You guys have completely derailed this with questions of time, which is what Tenet does. Thank you for talking about this movie. I'm really glad you both enjoyed it because I really enjoyed it. And it was nice to have a movie to enjoy at home

nearing the end of 2020. We're going to be back, the three of us, later this year, before the year is out, we're doing another movie draft. And the year of that later this year before the year is out. We're doing another movie draft. And the year of that movie draft is 1995. We're shaking things up a little bit. C, are you ready for that when you were thriving in the 90s?

Sorry, I was just WhatsAppping with Steve McQueen. My bad. What were you saying? What a modern man you are. Thank you, Amanda. Thank you, Chris. Now let's go to my conversation with the great Steve McQueen. Enjoy the new spinach and feta savory egg pastry or our roasted red pepper and Swiss pinwheel starting at only $2.99 plus tax. Try one or try our full Tim Selleck's lineup. Terms apply. Prices may vary at participating restaurants in Canada. It's time for Tim's. Steve McQueen, welcome back to The Big Picture. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you. I had such a great time last time I was with you guys.

We did have a good chat. So Steve, you we spoke, you've completed Small Axe. Congratulations. I think it's absolutely astonishing and I want to hear all about it. I read that it started as far back as 2012, the idea. Can you just tell me about when you began imagining it and how it evolved over time? Well, it started 11 years ago. And what happened was, it was, again, it was one of those things which I needed to sort of, I needed to experience.

I mean, there had been a hole, a gaping hole in the sort of trajectory of British film. And stories of a very important part of the nation hadn't been sort of realized. And of course, for me, I needed to see these images, I needed to see these stories, being a part of that narrative. So I decided that I wanted to sort of make a TV series. I thought to myself, okay, well,

what I want to do is maybe start with a family in the late 60s and end up in the mid-80s. I mean, that was always a trajectory, starting in 68 with Mangrove or a family involvement in that. But anyway, within my research and as I went along, I realized what I wanted to do was sort of to tell

more or less true stories because I thought, you know, true stories, because I thought, you know, because they were so powerful, and there's so many tales that have never been told. Well, I mean, two of the pieces in the film, in these films are fictionalized. Anyway, and then after that, I decided to sort of, you know, after, you know, doing other films in between, to, we get a writer's room together to sort of, you know, after, you know, doing other films in between, to get a writer's room together to sort of, you know, amalgamate these things into a series. But then I realized, whilst I was in there, that no, these things were film. These things were feature films.

And then the writer's room, in fact, became an audition space for the two writers I wanted to work with, who were, you know, Courtier newland and alice simmons and through that um you know things were developed as far as with those two writers and this researcher helen hart to sort of you know delve in deeper into the things that i was i was interested in working on so that's that's as long and short of it one of the things that i think people are responding to is the fact that I was interesting in working on. So that's long and short of it. One of the things that I think people are responding to is the fact that it is not a TV series in the traditional sense, that it is telling these kind of discrete stories, but that they feel thematically linked.

When you came upon that structure, that strategy, did you get any pushback from the BBC or anybody else who was helping you make it? No, not at all. Because, I mean, again, maybe they didn't know at the time. Maybe I didn't speak about it at the time. But again, the structure was the structure. I mean, look, we're not children anymore.

Things don't have to, you know, on television. I mean, people are watching things when they want to see them. They're not waiting until 8 o'clock for that time, prime time, to see it. They'll watch it when they want to watch it. We're moved on from that. That's done. The whole idea of a television show having to be a certain time, I mean, who's that for?

That's for commercial interest, maybe it's advertisers and so forth or whatnot. Maybe I pushed that, maybe I broke that. I don't know. But all I know is the art comes first. The art comes first. art comes first and whatever the art needs whatever the idea needs that has to we have to facilitate that not the other way around so therefore i knew that i wanted to make these stories i mean they demanded and they deserved the sort of canvas of a feature film and that's what i intended that's what i intended to do

and that was it and you know whatever format they needed to be shown to help the narrative, to enhance the narrative of the story. For each individual installment, did it effectively feel like making a film or was it a different experience in any way? I don't even know what that means. Well, did the production feel the same? Did the sort of the budget and the way that it was structured or is it different working inside? I'm from England, I'm from Europe, so we don't have a budget. We don't have a budget. We just what that means. Well did the production feel the same? Did the sort of the budget and the way that it was structured or is it different working inside? I'm from England, I'm from Europe so we don't have a budget.

We don't have a budget. We just know how to stretch. One thing I mean I know if we're not having any money is how to stretch a pound. So I don't know anything. I don't know any different. So I don't know what that is. I have no idea. you know you know there's the money uh go out and make it so you have to sort of try and find out but again also sometimes having too much money can be limitation you know you get too many bloody ideas or there's too many possibilities so again i don't really understand that question not because i don't i don't i don't understand what you're saying is that i'm not familiar with that sort of uh how can i say i'm not familiar with that sort of, how can I say, I'm not familiar with that kind of rendition of the question because I just get on with it.

Right. How much can I make it for? That makes sense. Were there any stories that you guys discussed in this writer's room that didn't make it into this series or maybe you thought you might want to attach down the line? Well, I think, you know, it was just a lot of, I mean, look, there's too many stories to tell.

You know, that's the problem. I think, you know, and then at some point, you've got to attach down the line? Well, I think, you know, it was just a lot of, I mean, look, there's too many stories to tell, you know, that's the problem. I think, you know, and then at some point you've got to stop and try. The narrative is a knack. Making small acts for me was like making an album. You know, what you start with, what do you, would you, would you, would you end with? So again, there's, you know, there's, there's Mangrove, there's Lovers Rock, there's Red, White & Blue, and then there's Axe Weedle, and then there's Education. And it was actually at the last minute, I just changed things around as far as how I put things together.

Last minute, I said, okay, no, no, no, no, I have to put Education last. So anyway, it's like making an album. So they're singular, but they're attached. So the sequencing is important. Do you think people should watch this in the order that the stories are being released? Like I said, there's no ways of doing anything anymore. I mean, there's the artist saying,

oh, I would like you to listen to it like that. I grew up with albums. I'm of that age, but you know, understandable. you should watch it how you want and when you want. So you know I facilitate that too. But yeah, well, you know, I have an idea how you should watch it, but it's not the law, let's just say that. Tell me about the music. I think people are having a reawakening with all the music that you've selected and falling in love with it all over again. Did you start with a kind of a playlist? Did you know that for each story, there should

be specific songs? How did you go about making all these choices? I think I'm of the age right now where things, you know, I'm a bit of a human jukebox, you know, things which come into my life. And I imagine you are too. I'm slightly older, I imagine. So therefore, you know, you just have to sort of go into your repertoire and be open to new things as well. So that was it, really. You know, certain things were just so important to me, certain songs. And, I mean, I love that song when Leroy Logan and the father exits the car.

Leroy exits the car, his father calls after him because the history of that song is such a beautiful history. The Bee Gees song, what was it called though because I'm lost in my head but yeah it's one of those situations where I knew the history of the song. I think Barry Gibb had sort of falling out with his brothers in order to make up How to Mend a Broken Heart as a song. Yes. In order to make up When They Came Back Together Again. Well, that was a song that he wrote for the Bee Gees when they came back together.

So there's a beautiful narrative. And for me, it was very meaningful for the father and son, how they came together, had a little bit of reconciliation before Leroy goes to the academy. So things like that. And some of the, again,

I'll go on one last thing. You talk about musical, and each other's special thing, just about the music, but I'll just be very quick. For example, Lovers Rock with Kunta Kinte by the Revolutionaries, that track I found

because you needed to find the right dub track. Now, that track in Lover's Rock is when all the guys, the dubs comes on and all the guys just go on the floor and start to skank and lose it. For me, when I heard, I was trying to find what was that track that where people will just sort of, you know, get into the dub and then free up themselves and everything else. It's a spiritual thing often is the case, it just taps into something. And as soon as that record landed, I heard that record, Revolution,

I was looking for the right dub track, it was like a dog whistle going off. I was like, what? I wanted to break something. It was crazy. It was like, whoa. It was like, it switched on, you know what I mean? So yeah, that was it. We could talk about music all night long, so I think we should stop there.

Can I ask you one more thing about it? I just want to say one of the most ecstatic things I've seen this year is the silly game sequence in lover's rock and everybody I know who's seen it is just over the moon about that moment and the patience of that moment can you just describe to me um what it's like to write something like that because I couldn't I can't visualize what a screenplay is for something like lover's rock especially a moment like that you don't write things like that you feel it I. I know it. I know it. I know it before

I even get into it, before even the pen touches paper, before even the key hits the key. It's a flipping screen, as it were. I was like, it's a bloody paper. Not anymore. That's how old I am. I keep referring to my age all the time. On the screen. On the screen. There you go.

On the screen. Tap the key and it hits the screen. It appears on the screen that the screen there you go on the screen tap the key and it hits the screen it appears on the screen that you have um uh you can't you don't yeah i felt it i knew even going into it i knew and then you know talking to courtier and stuff like that but it was one of those things absolutely i knew i said this this happened and i said okay we're gonna write something with a dancing whatever right but you know we had to fill the had to fill the fucking pages because it's like, okay, let's fill some pages with people dancing and touching and then, you know, fill three pages. But I knew it was gonna be longer because you just write shit in order to make noise on the paper so people understand where you want to be. But that's not cinema. Cinema is finding it. Cinema is being there. Cinema is being present.

So I knew what i had to conjure up i mean the whole film was somehow talking about going back to music it was it was how the dj the dj is the narrative was through the music you see so you start off with the warm-up you know and that is you know you you have the sort of the sort of, you know, the chic and the fighting, the kind of war. And then the amalgamation of the music and where it ends up to the, you know, you got me. So you can follow that trajectory. So I knew how I wanted things. And again, you know, again, the thing about religion in the picture.

I mean, there was this guy who I used to see all the time in Lambeth Grove, Nodding Hill, and Kensington and Chelsea. He was a guy who was accused of carrying a cross. So little things like that. So I had the thing in my head. I knew it because it was about my aunt. It was basically a fairy tale. Love is Rock is a fairy tale. It's Cinderella.

That's what Love is Rock is. It's Cinderella. And then at 12 o'clock, the carriage is turned into pumpkin, the horse is turned into mice, and so forth. you know um that's what that's what that's what lovers rock is it's cinderella and then you know 12 o'clock you know the carriage is turned into pumpkin the mice horses turned to mice and so forth and whatnot and go to church go to church you know that kind of thing let me ask you about mangrove uh for an ignorant american like me that's not a story that i'm very familiar with is it a story in england that is understood or did you feel like you were excavating something when you were telling it? Well, not a lot of people know about it. Let's

just say that it is very important. At the time, it was the longest case. It was the longest courtroom case in England. It's 55, 56 days. And it was a monumental moment. For the first time, you had two black defendants who were cross-examining and questioning the establishment. And the result was that, you know, when I say the result was the freedom to demonstrate, the result was that the police were, you know, seen and basically there was evidence of them and they were seen as racist, you know, said by the judge. You know, so therefore you have this huge landmark case. But, you know, the trauma which goes with that, because there's an after effect, you know, if that

court case hadn't have happened, I'm sure today, oh, no, no, if that court case wasn't, if that, if there wasn't a case in the highest court in the land, they'll obey and those people had not been exempt. I imagine today still people will be saying, oh, well, they must

have been guilty. The situation is that white people in the highest court in the land had to convince them, for people in general, to believe that they were innocent. But the day after, for example, one person was, again, I can't go into details, but it was one of those things where this was a victory in a landscape where there wasn't hardly any. How is the series being received in the UK? I'm curious. Good question. You can ask. You're the journalist. I have no idea. You're not hearing back from any people. I know you may not be there right now.

I mean, I got a text from people and people telling me nice things and all, but that's not a question to ask me. You should be telling me. I and all, but that's not a question to ask me. You should be telling me, I don't know. Well, I do know because people have been telling me, but it's kind of like, I don't really know because I don't really get into it. But the most important things I should say is what's going on with friends and family. So I'm not being fair to you. I apologize. I'm slightly embarrassed for the question because it's weird to talk about yourself, isn't it? Because you know it's great and because people are telling you it's great, Steve. Well, no, yeah.

Well, I think the most important is the emotion. The emotion. I think that's the thing. I think that's been sort of touching me. And really, I suppose that's why I've deflected the question in a way because the emotion, because my mum, my mother came to, she was at the London Film Festival

when it was the two-year, two-screen London Film Festival, you know, in a half-empty cinema. But she was quiet and touched. She was just very touched and very moved. And then my sister, at some point, this is watching a man grow up, and my sister, at some point, she wanted to scream or shout at the screen.

You know, she wanted to shout at the screen. And my aunt, when she saw Love Is Rock, she was just very, you know, she was in tears, she was emotional because I suppose the whole idea of visualizing one's narrative is very important and because it's very interesting in the sense of that, you know, to be recognized, you know, to be seen, to be heard, and that your Pacific thing can be seen, to be heard, and that your Pacific thing can be seen within the whole context of the country, of the history of the country.

And that's been beautiful. But also other things, of course, in Rome and, of course, in New York when we had the New York Film Festival, the response was wonderful. And yeah, I think for my community, you know, again, in the UK, I think what is interesting is because we, as a people, have been so influential within the political, within the cultural and within the sort of, yeah,

political, cultural, but also just within the everyday, you know, how people talk, how people walk, you know, and to sort of see it on the big screen on the canvas,

it sort of deserves to be on. I think it was very emotional for a lot of people. It just was. You know, you anticipated my question about your family because you mentioned that Lovers Rock is inspired by your aunt and these people got to see reflections of their life on screen. Did you talk to them before making any of these things to kind of research or even just to kind of seek their, I don't know, their blessing to tell some of these stories? Yeah, I did a bit.

Yeah, I did a bit. But people aren't, you know, there was so much trauma, there's so much PTSD in the West Indian community for what happened. I mean, for years, we've been talking about the police. For over 50 years, we've been talking about how terrible the police were.

You know, again, you know, what's been going on with the police. But, you know, there was for a long period of time in the UK, people were saying we're the best police force in the world. So what's happened recently is that people are being heard. So a lot of times I would ask people, but they wouldn't want to talk about it. You know, they would hide things away.

Not hide things away because things weren't so forthcoming. So, for example, I didn't know until I was completing Nan Groh, the film, that my father, one of my father's best friends was Rodan Gordon. Now, Rodan Gordon is a guy in Mangrove who is very reluctant

for people to self-represent themselves. But in the end, he actually did. You know, he was very, he was, you know, he was one of the guys from the Black Panther Party. That was one of my dad's best friends.

You know, they grew up together in a place called Paradise in Grenada. Now, I knew who Rodan was, but I didn't know he was the guy, you know, in the mangrove. So, Mangrove 9. So, things like that, because, you know, and I think things were, the day after the trial, Rodan, you know, the police broke his arm, broke his leg and put him in prison for 36 months for trumped up charges.

You see, this is what people were going through because the fact they got away with little Bailey, you know, that's what happened.

The day after they were seen as, you know, the day after the trial was ended. So you understand how the pressure, you know, I think black people live in a world was ended. So you understand how the pressure, you know, I think black people

live in a world of extremes. So therefore, sometimes people are forthcoming or they have to earn one's trust. So again, this is a very big moment for us in the way of having our stories sort of seen like this.

Yeah, it's one of those things. What was it like to be working on this as the events in the States started to unfold over the summer, with George Floyd being murdered and the protest movement rising up again? We were working on Red, White, and Blue at the time with John Vega, which was kind of great.

And we were having all these kind of conversations anyway, all these conversations. I just had done an exhibition in London. Well, not just, the exhibition in London was out for a month called Year 3, which was about these schoolchildren taking photographs of all the schools in the UK, of seven-year-olds, basically. That was the attempt.

We got over two-thirds. And John was talking to me about that and seeing the makeup of London and what London looks like and so forth and whatnot. And then that George Floyd thing happened. So we were having discussions before and I think what happened was John talking about the Floyd situation during, you know,

all I can say is I think it was a strange thing how art and real life come together. So what happened was this. So we were making this piece. We had a discussion with myself and John. And then there was a break in the filming. He went off to the demonstration.

And I think that we definitely had an influence on him, on his thinking at that point in time. Not to say that, you know, because he was involved in something which involved him. You got me? It was a case of him playing himself to a certain extent. I mean, obviously he's not Neil Wernogan,

but there was some way of things he was working in his head, things he was working with were being played out with the characters he was playing, but also in real life. So by the time he went to Hyde Park, he had that speech. Who, interestingly, Leroy Logan was attending that march, that damage. He was in the crowd when John was speaking. How bizarre is that?

We did not know that. And then when John came back, he influenced our film through that moment. So we influenced him, and then he influenced us through that moment. Because we came back and we shot the, there's a snooker table scene, which hopefully people will see.

And how he reacted in that was directly linked to that situation. So the George Floyd thing had a huge influence in the way of us, but it was always there, unfortunately. Again, it is what it is. It is what it is. And we hope to change it.

But that was, again, that was the way. That was art, man. That's just things that happen. But you have to be ready for it. I think that's a strange thing. And also you think about him talking about Star Wars and him being a poster boy for Star Wars. And then you'll see, excuse me,

I read right and blue, how those two characters are poster people. I mean, literally, literally, I mean, you know, Lee Warlock was a poster boy for Metropolitan Police. And John Baker was a poster boy for Star Wars. And, you know, they're the best of the best at their profession. And the institutions that they

were in failed them. So there's so many parallels within both their stories. So that was beautiful. It's very beautiful. Sorry, I haven't spoken about this so long about the subject. So that's why I fell into 12 years and so much. Well, it seems like the project has a long lifespan.

One of the things that I noticed is, aside really from Letitia Wright and John, there are not as many recognizable faces in the series. It feels like you're introducing us to a lot of people. Was that purposeful to say, I wanted to see new faces? Well, again, I say yes, because that's what it's, it's not about new faces. It's just the face we show there. And this is who we have, you know, because people don't get an opportunity. So it's easy. So it's not like I'm saying, oh, I want you to want me to face. Yes, I want to give opportunity, but these are who we have

and they're not giving enough opportunities. So that was working with Gary Davey, the casting director. We've been working on this a long, long, long time. I mean, I remember we teach her. We interviewed the teacher. We gave the teacher the role even before Black Panther. Because I didn't see the deal. I didn't see the work.

I didn't even audition her. I thought, yeah, okay, that's it. She is the lady. And that was it. So it was about... People are ready. People are hungry. People want to go.

So I was very fortunate. It's very rich here. Do you have any qualms about people seeing this on the television screen as opposed to in theaters? You've made, you know, a number of films now, theatrically released films. What's your sense of how the world is evolving in that way? Look, I don't think anything could be a cinema experience. I mean, I'm sorry, but to say that you cannot. You know, you even just to get, put your coat on, go out the door, walking to that movie theater,

or, you know, taking the train or wherever you need to go, your route, you're leaving all that stuff behind. You're entering into a space where you can focus for an hour and a half, an hour, whatever. And, you know, again, it's the communal viewing, the oohs and the ahs, the sort of, you know, the laughter, the sort of just the vibe and all that grandeur of a cinema. It's an event. And I think, you know, to reflect humanity onto you, I don't think there's anything better.

But there's this thing called streaming and look I remember seeing so many amazing movies at home at night that was my first sort of viewing of some great movies was on the TV and so I appreciate that also but

look these films were made with, you know, with cinema in mind, for sure, but they were for TV. You know, that's it. But we had amazing screens in the New York Film Festival and in Rome and in London. So I think that I don't really, I can't, you know,

there's no competition for me, but at the same time, you know, it is what it is. It is what it is. So it's great. It's like, like I said, about people viewing things in certain orders or viewing things at a certain times or things of certain length, it is what it is. You know, one of the things that I do like about the streaming part of it, and I obviously, I agree with you about the cinema and i miss it so much right now but i was able to watch lovers rock for a second time last night before talking to you

yeah i know it was nice and that's that's cool there that's a there's something great about that i know i know i know it's nice isn't it oh that's nice that's no no it's nice isn't it i yeah i know yeah yeah yeah yeah i think i think look yeah, please go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead. Say what you were going to say. It's very exciting when people are re-watching things. And it's kind of, that's very exciting. And that's very exciting to re-watch. I remember, my God, when my son, he had Cars, that film Cars.

And my God, he would watch it at 17. I mean, like, he'd keep watching, but he was like, well, i mean like you keep watching but he was like well how'd you whoa and i was like you know he was watch cars sometimes when i'm putting him to sleep watch fucking cars i mean but you know it's it's it look i what i think is interesting about this is cinema and i'm going to be a little slightly dusty when I say this, cinema has to be rock and roll in order for it to survive. It just has to be. You know, I say dusty because I'm using the idea of rock and roll. We can use hip-hop, we can use whatever,

trap or whatever you want to use, you know, as an analogy. Well, what do you mean when you say that? Well, it has to appeal to, it has to be current. It can't be dusty. It can't be funny daddy. It's got to be current. You know, it dusty. It can't be funny daddy. It's got to be current. You know, it can't be just for sort of the movie heads or specialists. It's got to be about like music.

My goodness. I mean, music is, you know, pushing, you know, again, and you think of dub. Dub was always about the future. Dub was always about technology. Dub was always about sound and moving sound. Dub was never still. Black music is never still.

It's never. It was day to day. Yesterday's gone. Something else. Someone else is doing some new stuff. It's about, you know, the whole idea of transformation, the whole idea of change, of developing, never staying still. So for that reason, I have to embrace this and i do embrace

it so the fact that you told me i love what you said about watching it again because i understand that and i love it i love the excitement of it and my son i remember he's watched cars it's like no again that's a bit dodgy but i couldn't get away with like nothing else i mean listen to the story um but yeah it's exciting you know it's like that get away with it it's like nothing else listen to the story but yeah it's exciting you know it's like that record isn't it

it's like a record it's like a record isn't it that's what I mean you build a relationship yeah but also that record you want to hear it oh god you heard the record

yeah play it again play it again so we filmmakers have to sort of you know we can't be it's not about yesterday it's about today

well one thing about yesterday though i did want to ask you was there anything since you said so few of these stories have been told you don't usually see this community on screen but was there anything that you went back and watched before you started work on this or started shooting anything no no no no reference materials no inspirations no things that said i want to capture this real life no it's like if you got a lens you got a camera you got a sound you got you got boom get on with it i mean you know what does the frame i mean you know it's about real life how do you capture it you know again it's i don't work i don't go to work with a stencil because often when i go to set more like 99 i have no idea what I'm going to do. I have no idea.

I have no idea how am I going to, you know, shoot it. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't have a shooting list. I don't. I just, okay, let's have, okay, what's the scene? Okay, let's find it.

Let's see it. Let's just get it. Because you have to be in the moment. All those film references, all of your history or of life more than anything is in you. So it's not about, you know, what, you know, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Again, it's you carry this stuff with you when you go on the set, for me at least. I mean, I've never been on anyone else's show. Despite where you come from, I've always thought of you as a filmmaker,

as kind of one of the great chroniclers of American problems and the American psyche. And your last few films have really been trained in the States. Do you think you'll come back and make more movies in the States? Or do you feel like you are entering a phase in which maybe you'll consider more stories about the UK? I think a lot of them, forgive me, I think a lot of people forget the history of American filmmaking. You know, it's mainly Europeans, let's be honest, let's stop playing.

So me going over to America, telling stories or telling stories with American sort of protagonists or talking about America, it's not nothing new. I mean, you know, look at the history of American films. You know, the ones that changed the game and have influenced

have been Europeans, you know, and, of course, descendants of Europeans. So this is nothing new. This is not a situation where I can even talk about in that way of being, you know, America has been the canvas for so many European filmmakers and influence America, but also children of say first generation

Irish or whoever, Ford or whatever, you know, come on, let's not play. Do you have a sense of what you're going to do next? I'm doing a documentary right now it's called Occupy City in Amsterdam

it's sort of chronicling the Nazi occupation of Amsterdam from 1940 1945 so I'm doing that right now and some other something else I'm doing as well but that's what I'm doing right now What's it like to be shifting to documentary right now? Weird, coronavirus. So shooting is really weird.

But I'm loving it. I've got to stop actually, because I feel like I'm peddling in my dreams. I'm always doing something, but it's one of those things where I have to do it because it's kind of important to me. It's where, you know, it's sort of, yeah, it's a very, I think it's very,

how we're doing it is I think it's very interesting. So I'm very excited about it, really. Yeah. I look forward to that. Steve, we end every episode of this show

by asking filmmakers, what's the last? Oh my God, you're finished? Yeah, I want, I don't want to keep, I want to give you a safe amount of time.

Oh my God. You got more you want to say? Oh, well, I'm sorry I didn't squeeze you. Okay're finished. Yeah, I want, I don't want to keep, I want to give you a safe amount of time. You got more you want to say? Oh, well, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to squeeze you. Okay, great. No, you didn't squeeze me at all. No. Okay, wow.

Well, I could ask you more questions about just putting 5446 and Monkey Man in your movie. I mean, all these great songs that I love. We'll do the music one night. I do end the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they've seen though. So have you been watching things in quarantine? Have you been watching things with your family?

Yes. We have been watching. I watched Rules of the Game. Ooh, Renoir? Renoir. What brought you to that? I just rewatch things often

I just love the farce I just love the farce of it I just love the farce I love the farce it just goes it just moves man that movie moves and it's so

you see things so quickly you do a double take what was that and you see how it sort of it references things and you think and then you as it's going along you're adding you're putting things together in your head oh that's what that is oh it just stimulates so much as it moves along at um and you, it's so cynical at the same time. It's so sad. It's just like, oh.

But yeah, it's beautiful. I think maybe that is the first. Maybe that's the first. Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe it's the first farce. I mean, you can think of it as in, you can think of it like, you know,

there was a vice. You can think of vice like that. You can think of a lot of those sort of movies where you could think of what's that, what's that wonderful, it was a bit sentimental actually, but it's kind of interesting music, very good.

The TV show, Modern Family, but it's a bit sentimental at the same time, but there's a, there's a pace to it, which I like. And similar, similar to Rules of the Game,

maybe that was the first sort of its kind. And then you can see all those mock the game. Maybe that was the first of its kind. You can see all those mockumentaries. Maybe that was the first of its time. I don't know. I was very excited about watching that again. What else have I been watching? I watched Five Easy Pieces again. What brought you to Five Easy

Pieces? It's so beautiful. My God, it's so beautiful. It's just this guy who you think is this blue collar worker and he's trying to get his past. And he's, oh my

God, a black, Karen Black, oh my goodness. And that abusive relationship, but he's kind of torn and she loves. And then you find out this guy is a classically trained pianist he's fathered that it's like whoa it's heavy it's heavy but what are you running from what are you trying to forget and at the end i mean like the last scene in the picture is just phenomenal the last scene you know it's worth anyone hasn't seen it it's just like phenomenal with it it does no words just actions and he actions. And he has a window open and he jumps

through it. A door opens and he takes opportunity. Oh my goodness. That was pretty good. Well, so I see this or that. Those things are pretty genius. I saw something else that was really, really, really good. It was a movie, I can't remember what it was yeah those were good Steve can I ask you do you do you think you mentioned showing your son cars

over and over again I didn't I didn't show he shows it that wasn't me that was it someone had to press play someone had to press play

he showed him once and then it's like this was a long time ago this was a long time ago he's a bigger child now but bloody hell it's like he was like but that's what I wanted to ask you do you are you going to give him This was a long time ago. This was a long time ago. He's a bigger child now, but bloody hell, it's like he was like...

But that's what I wanted to ask you. Are you going to give him a film education? Are you going to show him things? Or do you let him seek those things out for himself? Well, I've done my daughter. We did with my daughter.

I did that. We did that. I did some of that. Yeah, we did some of things like that. That's great because when kids watch movies, again, it's like... My daughter, my mother's got older now, but when the kids watch where they go with their friends,

it's an afternoon or night out, and it's about a comedy often or horror or whatever it is often. But then, you know, I remember I said, okay, well, hey, do you want to see this picture? What's this picture called? And I said, okay, you know, I remember I said, okay, well, hey, do you want to see this picture? What's this picture called? And I said, it was, okay, something like that. He goes, oh, it's black and white? I said, yeah, just give it a chance.

Just give it a chance. I thought, okay, it's got to be comedy. I wanted a female, you know, main protagonist, but also, you know, again, you know, Jack Lemmon and Jenny Curtis are great. And of course, it's funny. I think it's an amazing picture. And she loved it.

But you just have to sit them down, chain them down, take the phone away from them, and give it a chance. I remember, is it back in the way? Yes, back in the way. Give it a chance. She loved it. She loved it.

She loved it. Again, so there we did a bit of Wilder. We did The Apartment, which is, chance. She loved it. She loved it. She loved it. You know, again, today we did a bit of Wilder. We did The Apartment, which is, of course, wonderfully charming and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

So again, all I've been talking about, I've talked about three American pictures and one French. But then, you know, again, then I did Chomking Express with her. That was fucking amazing. Sorry, may I swear?

No, yes, you can swear. It's fine. I apologize. Did she catch on to that? Did she follow it? Because that's a bit more complex. Yeah, but it's rock and roll. Yeah, it is. That's what I'm talking about.

Speaking of the use of music, there's a little something. Yeah, well, again, I think it's rock and roll. So again, I think, you know, again, it's the effects of the pitch. And again, it's back to people falling in love, to young people falling in love or having an issue, you know, again, it's the effects of the picture. And again, it's back to people falling in love, to young people falling in love or having an issue, you know, sort of, you know, there's romanticism about it. So again, it's sort of the message of the teenage. So that's, again, that's, you know, you know, again, you know,

interestingly enough, you can think of things like in England, you know, when in Britain, when rock and roll really happened was when Blackboard Jungle came out with the song Rock Around the Clock. So again, young people, music, that's when rock and roll really sort of hit the UK with the, you know,

was it Haley? Was he there again? Bill Haley and the Cubs. Bill Haley, that's right. And the Cubs Rock Around the Clock, that was in Blackboard Jungle with Sidney Poitier. And Ford, who is it? Glenn Ford? Glenn Ford, yeah. Glennaley, that's right. And the comics, they're rocking around the clock. That was in Blackboard Jungle with Sidney Poitier. And Ford, who is it? Glenn Ford? Glenn Ford, yeah.

Glenn Ford, that's right. So that's when rock and roll hit here. And that's when people, when the fucking moves keep us away. I'm not saying one has to sort of cater for teenagers

for them to sort of have romantic pictures for people to sort of go to movies. And that's rock and roll as such. But I just feel that, again, it's one of those things, how do we survive as a medium?

We have to sort of, you know, I have no idea. Again, I don't want to talk about populism at all in that way, because I, you know, again, you know, you know, I've done my best to fail, you know? So in those, in those ways, and with people, you know, you have your impassable movie, whatever, because I was interested in what I wanted to do. But at the same time, I don't know.

It's one of those things, isn't it? It's one of those things. It's an interesting conversation to have but maybe just not now let me ask you one last thing then do you show your children your films no god no no no no no no no they're catching up now I mean my daughter did but no

no no no no but for any reason because you're bashful because they're not ready for it because what what what why not maybe this time you're bashful because they're not ready for it because what what why not maybe this time i did this time because my daughter was wasn't old enough to certainly certain things but this time when i was editing i would show certain things and and whatnot you know and certain things yeah when i was editing i was doing that so when i was editing yeah i would show certain things yeah yeah yeah yeah but yeah, she loves it. Of course. That was good. Um, you know, um, no. So now I have this, this is the first time I did that.

The first, I mean, with those, with those, with those, maybe with us, maybe with us, maybe with us, maybe with us. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't, again, I don't want to, you know, she's interested. Yeah. And she was, so there's my, my daughter, she's older than my son who, you know, yeah. No story, but film. Yeah. Okay.

I think we've done it. I think, I think, I think we've done it. We've done it. Thank you, Steve. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

It's always nice to chat with you. You're such a great interviewer. My goodness. Thank you. Rattling along. I was chatting like a. Congratulations on small X and thank you again. Bye-bye.

Bye. Bye. Thank you to Steve McQueen. Thank you to Chris Ryan, to Amanda Dobbins, and to Bobby Wagner. Please tune into The Big Picture next week when Amanda and I are going to be doing a few episodes, but we're going to be starting with the 20 best film performances of 2020. We'll see you then.