The Big Picture - ‘Road House’ and the Top 10 Junk Fight Movies. Plus: Sydney Sweeney’s ‘Immaculate’!

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

Sean is joined by Chris Ryan to briefly discuss ‘Immaculate,’ the new Sydney Sweeney nun horror movie, before digging into Jake Gyllenhaal’s ‘Road House’ remake (1:00). Then, Sean and Chris explore a new niche subgenre they’ve invented: junk fights (32:00). Finally, Sean is joined by ‘Immaculate’ director Michael Mohan to discuss working in the genre, working with Sweeney, and how he hopes to build on this film going forward (1:08:00). Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Chris Ryan and Michael Mohan Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In a world where coaches are still the main characters, the players are now legally chasing the ultimate bag, and the game of basketball is always the top priority, there is only one brand you can trust to help you wade through all the madness. Hey, I'm Tate Frazier from OneShiny Podcast, and you can join me twice a week as we navigate the always entertaining world of college basketball. Every Monday, the Ringer's Comment helps me make sense of the biggest stories from the weekend.

And on Fridays, we talk to our many friends of the program. We're locked in on the best post season in sports. Make sure you follow one shining podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessey and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about junk fights. Roadhouse, the remake of the 1989 action classic starring Jake Gyllenhaal, is now streaming on the Amazon Prime Video Service. Chris Ryan and I will break down that movie today.

We'll compare it to the original. We'll dig into our latest and our ongoing series of sub-genre deep dives, garbagey deep dives. We'll be talking about junk fights. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Michael Mohan, the director of Immaculate, the new Sidney Sweeney starring non-sploitation horror flick. The movie is a lot of fun.

Chris and I saw it together. Mohan and Sweeney, they've been working together for years now. This is, I think, their third project together. Hope you'll stick around for my conversation with Michael. He's a really fun, really smart guy who's having a bit of a moment. First, let's talk about Immaculate, Chris. Let's. We saw the film together. We did. We went to the LA premiere.

At the Egyptian Theater. Which was very fancy. Recently renovated. Owned by the Netflix Corporation. Thank you to them for all their work. Not putting movies in movie theaters, but owning movie theaters. I thought this movie was a lot of fun. Yeah, it was a blast. We got the full treatment, though. You know what I mean?

I don't know how people are going to feel when they just go to their AMC and sit through Nicole and then have some chicken tenders while this happens. But for us, we got some masked nuns. We got a choir. We got a, we got some masked nuns. Yes. We got a choir. We got a real gothy vibe inside the Egyptian. I don't know if I didn't get the note about the dress code,

but that was the feeling that everybody around us was dressed like they were in the Matrix. Yeah, you were in a Canadian tuxedo. I was in my typical dad outfit of like green pants. And everyone else was in all black, looking incredibly slim, sleek, and stylish.

Everybody smelled of like deep musky incense. And I was like, why don't you want to see this Rick Pitino video? It's hilarious. You guys have red vines? It was pretty sad for us. But man, a 90 minute horror movie about a chick who's pregnant with Satan

is just about the best thing you could ask for on a Friday night. Yeah. And well, I mean, when that chick is Sidney Sweeney, who's really cresting, she's having this incredible moment that we very rarely see these days. If young stars who start out really in television, develop their personas on screen,

maybe they have a big studio movie. And then lo and behold, after the studio movie becomes a success, they had already banked a fun little genre movie, a messy, gnarly little genre movie. We've seen this happen with Jennifer Lawrence. We've seen this happen with Elizabeth Olsen. There have been a handful of stars who, after big breakthroughs, you see that they made something real down and dirty and really well made and really fun. But the best part about this movie to me, in addition to it being just like a very effective and lean horror movie that you're

talking about, is that it is self-aware. It is Sidney Sweeney being self-aware about her own persona. It's a movie that has very serious themes. Of course, it's set in the church. It's an American nun who visits a convent in Rome where she's being kind of indoctrinated into the old ways of the Catholic church. And lo and behold, there's some suspicious activity going on and she's at the center of it and sydney sweeney is like playing with this kind of hammer horror 70s ken russell nun freak out movie thing and she's really game for it i was a little critical of her

with anyone but you because i'm just i just thought she was like miscast and not right for that kind of a rom-com part but i did say when freak out is the thing she has to do which is what she often has to do as Cassie in Euphoria, she's fucking good. This is exactly what I was going to say, which is that the notes

that she plays in this movie are similar to the notes that she plays on Euphoria. And I think that she's got a filmmaker in Michael Mohan who's like indulging her in that and like playing that up. I would say that it is

tongue-in-cheek without being really campy. Agree. So there are moments where it's like, oh, I see what you guys are doing here. And you guys see what you guys are doing here. But it's not like Rocky Horror Picture Show or some sort of like kind of,

nobody's really going over the top until the very end. And so I really enjoyed that aspect of it. It keeps you on your toes, but it also like respects the genre. Absolutely. There's some staging and costuming that is very like winking right at you about what they know what they're doing with stuff but it never there's nothing in the script that would indicate that this is anything other than

a genuinely scary kind of cultish catholic horror movie it's also really cool to see honestly i know we joke a lot about like sydney sweeney and and everything. But she definitely is in control of her instrument. Let's just put it that way. She's just like, I know what people expect slash like about me, but I also know what I'm interested in doing and we're going to find the perfect meeting spot of those two things. I mean, you mentioned the Jennifer Lawrence having the genre movie. I can't remember, what was that?

It's like the house at the end of the street. Yeah, after her big breakout with Winter's Bone. But like, this kind of reminded me a little bit of Mother. You know? I think like

there is a little bit of like how far can I push myself to this part, which is cool. It's a lot of tight close-ups, her anxiety emanating off of her. Yeah. It's a fun movie

and it's the kind of movie that isn't, it's not hard to get convince someone to go see a movie like this. Do you like horror movies? Do you like Sidney Sweeney? Sold. Yes. And it is the kind of movie that I'm surprised we don't see more of. But the thing is, is that Sidney Sweeney, to her credit, she apparently went up for this part in this movie when it was slightly different.

Michael, explain this to us. And she didn't get the part. And then the movie went away. And the studio, I think, went away. And then 10 years later, when she accrued the capital to produce, she chose to do this script because she really wanted to do this movie. And she picked Mohan after her experiences

working with him on The Voyeurs. And she made it happen for herself. So she is very much in control of the way that she's delivering her persona to us. She's like, fuck you, Jobu. I do it myself now. Absolutely. She's the captain now.

And we salute Sydney Sweeney. Thank you for your work. Want to talk about Roadhouse? Can we just say that when a naif enters a convent and it seems a little off, there's just nothing better. Well, can I tell you something really weird? The hairs on my arms stand up. It's so crazy.

And most people have not seen this movie. Some are not even aware of it. But in two weeks, there's a movie coming out called The First Omen. Yeah. Which is a prequel to The Omen, which I think you and Bill did on the rewatch. We did. Yeah. Obviously, legendary horror movie, Richard Donner.

Damien Omen. Damien Omen. And this prequel that's coming out has such an alarmingly similar storyline and structure and approach. Is it alarmingly similar or is that the storyline? What do you mean? Like, if we're going to do a convent movie, what's going to happen at the convent? The Antichrist is coming. We watched the film Benedetta recently for this podcast and those nuns were fucking.

That's totally different. I think they indulged in devilish pleasures in that movie. I see. You're right that the devil comes into play. Yeah, I'm not casting aspersions on what Benedetta chooses to do with herself. When's the last time you sat in a Catholic mass? I actually literally haven't been to anything like that.

I'll do a little dabbling when I'm in some of the great churches of Europe. You know, if I'm traveling around the continent, I'll stop in. That's your Rick Steves audio podcast. It's just you wandering around churches, touching things. Going up to priests and being like, you got any antichrist experiences you'd like to share with my YouTube channel? Wow, I really want that.

Did Damien Omen jump off here? But yeah, I think that that like it's like when fucking four high school kids go into the woods it's like when Cecilia goes into the convent and it's just like yeah it's a setup yeah it's a great setup so I'm I'm all for non-horror where are you out on the devil these days uh because I want it what I want to do is you know I was actually ask you a little bit about this does the antichrist make things a little hard for himself? Because it always seems like, you know, a complicated, like we have to find this vessel.

Like if you're the Antichrist, can't you just like vamoosh into somebody? We need a host. We need a host. But where's that written down? Is that in the Bible? Yeah, it's on page eight. I think it's there if the antichrist comes back that's in the sequel to three body problems yeah i don't know it's a good

question it's a good i mean if we believe in the ideas of possession he just seems to be banging his head against the wall and i would just say like literally he's buried underground go back to the drawing board find a better way to to make yourself well see the antichrist to me is not the devil to me there's a difference the antichrist to me is not the devil. To me, there's a difference. The Antichrist has come to vanquish Christ. Weird that Bobby's nodding. Well, because I think the devil is the participant. The devil.

I'm the Catholicism guy on the pod. I love Catholicism. Yeah, but we're so back, baby. Don't you need the devil to impregnate the host so that we can have the offspring of Satan, which would then become the Antichrist. I see. You know what I'm saying? Technically, the Antichrist. I see. You know what I'm saying?

Technically, the Antichrist's position in the Bible is just anyone who prophecies themselves as the actual Messiah instead of Jesus. So it's like a competitor to Jesus almost. It's a good note. It's a Jesus Christ and Daniel. But I'm not talking about the biblical text. I'm talking about the history of horror movies where some lady has a baby and it's going to destroy everybody.

And it's the beast. Yes, right. And the Antichrist is such a, for lack of a better term, a sexy name to call that. It is. It is a really good name. It's going to pop out of somebody.

Have you guys seen the Lars von Trier movie Antichrist? Yes. It's a dramatic feature. Bobby, if you haven't seen it, I recommend it. Charlotte Gainsbourg does unimaginable, indescribable things in that film.

How do we get to Roadhouse from this conversation? Well, do you think that Roadhouse is an abomination standing in the mirror image of its

perfect original copy? Well, that's my big question for you. So this new Roadhouse movie, which is now streaming on Amazon, directed by Doug Liman, starring, I would say,

a mutual fascination of ours, Jake Gyllenhaal, one of the most unusual movie stars we've had in the last 25 years. Somebody who I always want to see what he's up to and what he's doing and why he's doing it,

even when the projects are ultimately not very good. This one in particular sounded, it gets, it's clear why it was greenlit. It's clear that 80s IP that has a very recognizable name, but is very, can be shifted

to the modern times pretty easily. Yeah. Would make sense. But this is a very odd movie. Yeah. But the original, which I didn't revisit,

but you did recently on the rewatchables, is also a very odd movie yeah but the original which i didn't revisit but you did recently on the rewatchables is also a very odd movie yeah so their energies are different in what way like in what ways is this movie different from the original well the original movie i think for me functions as a b movie in the best best possible sense of the word and i don't really know if there are like are that many b movies anymore i mean like yeah like literally there is like beekeeper and stuff like that but and it is also a B movie but the idea of like having something that's very well made and very fun to watch but is not quote unquote good or you know has like anything to tell us about art or humanity or anything like that is

just like really like a great roller coaster ride I think it's kind of like a little lost art form because even something like this Roadhouse remake has been thrown into debates about theatrical versus streaming and is like a ton of CGI and has like a weird villain casting issue. And it's almost like it's like even something like Roadhouse in 2024 seems to have a lot of weight on its shoulders, which is funny because this movie, if you just go and watch it, something like Roadhouse in 2024 seems to have a lot of weight on its shoulders. Which is funny because this movie,

if you just go and watch it, is exactly the kind of thing that you would want to knock out on a Friday or Saturday night. If you're like, you want to watch a pretty fun movie where Jake Gyllenhaal is jacked and beats ass in the keys? Yes.

I totally agree. As is so often the case on this show, we get a chance to see these movies in movie theaters and then they go straight to streaming services. And we're having an experience where we're like... It's the triple frontier conundrum. Same issue. Yeah.

You know, even Six Underground. Yeah. A good example of that. Oh my God, perfect example. Yeah, where you see a movie, it's a silly movie. Roadhouse is not a quote unquote good movie.

It's not made to be, it's not made for the Academy Awards despite Doug Liman's protests ahead of the South by Southwest premiere where he said that this is Jake Gyllenhaal's Oscar movie. It's a remake of Roadhouse. It's a fun movie about guys beating the shit out of each other.

When you see it and you're captured by the big screen, you're not looking at your phone. You're sitting with a buddy, in this case, me and you, you know, wolfing down some candy. It's easy to get locked in and have a good time. I was locked in and have a good time i was locked in i do think that most people that watch this movie at home will be like what is this this is not good this or there's the minute something happens that feels off or not as good we just we've lost patience with it so i don't i'm not trying to extend an extra generosity to roadhouse but for what it was i had a good time me too me. Me too. I would give it, like, it would be like thumbs up, but barely.

You know, if that makes sense, or thumbs up. Yeah, that wavering thumb that is sort of like slightly tipping towards up. It's like if you, but I do want to talk about Jake. I do want to talk about Gyllenhaal. So in this movie, he plays an ex-UFC fighter named Dalton. Right. Who takes a job as a bouncer at a Florida Keys roadhouse. When we meet him,

he has clearly left UFC. He's kind of living a shadow life fighting in these illegal fighting rings. But he clearly is understood to have a big reputation

because when we first meet him, the guy who is he's getting ready to fight realizes who he is when he removes his hood. I was like,

I'm not fucking fighting this guy. This guy's a maniac. We don't know what he's done. We don't know how he's gotten this reputation. But we know he's a bad hombre We don't know what he's done. We don't know how he's gotten this reputation.

But we know he's a bad hombre, as you would say, Chris. And that leads to Jessica Williams' character who runs this roadhouse identifying him as the right guy for the job of bouncer at this bar in the Florida. Is the first guy Post Malone? It certainly looks like him. It's not? I didn't confirm that it is him. All right, let me just,

I'm just going to Google Post Malone Roadhouse and see what happens. Yeah, that's Post Malone. Okay, so I thought it was him. Weird choice by Post to do that. Where are you at on Post Malone? White Iverson? You're White Iverson.

Zero opinion about him. I like don't even, I don't know that I could hum. I know that he is since like his early rap days and now he is like a country troubadour, right? I think that's great. I have almost zero interaction with him. I like one Post Malone song.

Okay. It's called Sunflower. It's in the film Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse. Okay. Do you remember that song? I do. You don't like it? I couldn't hum it.

I remember there being a Post Malone song in the Spider-Verse. Cool. So Post Malone refuses to fight Gyllenhaal. Jessica Williams tracks Gyllenhaal down outside after he's been stabbed in the parking lot. Alarming sequence. By a guy who lost a bet. Yes. Wow. I mean, feel free to explain where you're at

in the culture of betting. The sports betting thing is really getting out of hand. It is. And what? You think he had money on the Dodgers, that guy? No? He had a friend police the bed on the Dodgers. So he had to stab Dalton.

Yeah. Dalton quickly recovers by applying some duct tape to his torso. And he decides to take this gig. Even though he's reluctant at first, he seems like a man, a lost man. And he gets down to this roadhouse and he has something that is different from Patrick Swayze, who is the star of Roadhouse. Patrick Swayze, almost like a dancer,

balletic and powerful. Well, he was a philosopher in the movie. And a philosopher. So he's a philosophy student. He's got like a Tao of Dalton. Like there's the whole be nice thing. And he's also crucially a world-renowned cooler,

which is like the head bouncer of bars and is brought into dives to like clean them up. Dalton in this movie, in the 2024 version, is a disgraced ex-UFC fighter who like doesn't read,

doesn't have a cool car, doesn't, doesn't, doesn't, doesn't. It's like way, like the choices that they made i would say that gyllenhaal's performance is far more idiosyncratic than swayze swayze is like the sheriff coming to clean up a town and this dalton is way more like uh cte version of that i don't know he's very friendly. Yes.

And he goes out of his way to explain before he dispenses mayhem what he's going to do to his potential victims. You need a hospital and dental. One of the funnier bits in the movie is in fact he beats up a group of guys and then drives them to the hospital. Yes, that is a very funny scene.

And there are a number of scenes like this where Gyllenhaal has made a choice and some of it is clearly in the way that the character is written and some of it is clearly in the way that the character is written, and some of it is clearly in his persona pursuit as a movie star. Much like when he portrayed Loki, much like when he played Lou in Nightcrawler, where he takes a character that on paper seems eccentric, and he takes their eccentricities and multiplies them.

Yeah. And Dalton, who is one of the most perfectly sculpted humans on earth and is a UFC fighter happens to be a soft-spoken friendly guy who looks like Jake Gyllenhaal it's a weird choice I mean I thought it worked if you want the movie to be a comedy if you are expecting a full-blown action blowout which the movie sort of devolves into in the final third. When Conor McGregor shows up. Yeah. So midway through,

like when they're like, we have to call the real guy, that's when it turns into Bloodsport. It's interesting to think about Doug Liman making this movie because Doug Liman has made a lot of very chaotic productions over the years.

A lot of movies I like quite a bit. And a lot of movies that really dance on that line between, is this a comedy or like a hardcore genre movie? Edge of Tomorrow is like this. At times it feels very funny and very knowing. And at other times it just seems like

a very chaotic action movie. Mr. and Mrs. Smith is much like this. You know, in some ways the Bourne movies are even like this, where they have these like kind of quiet, winsome, intimate moments. Well, they're definitely like, I think that he brings,

because of, I would like to associate it with his notoriously like find the movie as we're shooting it find the movie like in reshoots find the movie as it occurs to me kind of style which is at least allegedly how he shoots that somehow out of that between the unbelievable amount of like allegiance he gets from like big actors despite the fact that almost every one of his movies it's just like holy shit that was crazy matt damon jake gyllenhaal like tom cruise tom cruise multiple times uh he does wrench out like a weird recognizable humanity in absolute horseshit setups you know spy who loses his memory. PR guy who finds out

that he's supposed to save the world and has to do it over and over again. UFC fighter cleans up bar in the Florida Keys. All of which are like I'm a spy and I didn't

realize my wife is also a spy. Yeah. And all of those movies and like each one of them he just will force in something where you're like these people

are behaving like people. Yeah. I think his background, you know, his first two films are Swingers and Go, which are effectively like human dramas with comedy in them. You know what I mean? Like low stakes, high emotion dramedies.

And so you can see that he has like the tools and he's good with actors because actors like Tom Cruise and Emily Blunt fucking rave about Edge of Tomorrow even though it's clearly a very chaotic production. So you're right he is

able to get something out of them. The Gyllenhaal character though in the performance is one of the more alien performances from him in a history of alien

performance. So here's here's a here's one of the things I would like to say about Jake. I think that if I was beautiful and jacked and an actor like I would have the same taste as like to say about Jake. I think that if I was beautiful and jacked and an actor,

I would have the same taste as Jake Gyllenhaal. I think Jake Gyllenhaal has incredible taste and maybe bad instincts. Okay, explain what you mean by that. So for the last 10 years, let's just do the last 10 years of Jake. So it starts with Nightcrawler, which is really when you're like, okay, this guy who has

all the tools to just be in the leading man sweepstakes. Yes. Like all the Bradley Cooper, Chris Evans, like chops. But also is pretty funny and could also do Ryan Reynolds. And also can do Sondheim and also wants to distort his body multiple times over the course of the last 10 years to play boxers or UFC fighters or bank robbers or whatever. So here's his last 10 years.

Nightcrawler, pretty I would say that that is like a very decidedly like that's a choice. Oh, of course. A forgotten David O. Russell movie that finally got released after Nightcrawler. Southpaw,

Everest, Demolition jean-marc ballet movie uh nocturnal animals i thought he was incredible in that and that's i love that movie life where he's like a supporting actor for most of that film okja stronger wildlife he's fucking incredible in that's his most normal performance yes it's wildlife that's his most studied i'm paul newman i'm robert redford like distressed quiet male vulnerability but even that guy you're i feel like he's he turns up the dial of like there's something wrong with this guy so that it's not he's not cool you're just like no it's sad yeah it's sad uh sister brothers velvet buzzsaw the guilty a famous uh chris ryan

auction selection. I will not allow you to skip over Spider-Man Far From Home. Far From Home. His work as Mysterio. Sorry, Far From Home, The Guilty, Ambulance, Modern Classic. Ambulance rocks. And then this fucking run where he's doing The Covenant, Roadhouse, and an untitled Guy Ritchie movie coming, I think, later this year.

Something's going on with him. He is like a very odd expression of modern masculinity. He's doing Sondheim on stage. Yeah. I mean, hilariously memorable in the John Mulaney sack lunch bunch. And he's doing a solo. He's going to do a solo with Denzel Washington.

Yeah. Yeah. He's on a journey. He's on a quest. I would go back to the dual failure of Prince of Persia and Love and Other Drugs in the same year, in 2010, where Love and Other Drugs is, I year in 2010 where Love and Other Drugs is I'm

Tom Hanks I'm Billy Crystal I'm like I'm in a relatable maybe I'm William Hurt you know like I'm I'm in a thoughtful adult dramedy about the complications of romance and Prince of Persia is my big franchise play I'm gonna be a big franchise star and neither of those movies really work I kind of like Love and Other Drugs I think Hathaway is unbelievable in that movie but it didn't play yeah and then he goes to source code end of watch prisoners enemy and he gets a little taste of the villeneuve ability to play weird which we we now see a grand scale with dune where he's kind of letting everybody just go real weird yeah he's letting javier bardem go crazy he's letting stellan skarsgård go crazy he's letting austin butler go crazy like that's something he does and I feel like that

activated something in him where he was like every time I take a part I'm gonna go massive Roadhouse is kind of weird though because it's it's kind of a small performance it's obviously very physical and very powerful but there's a scene in the movie where he meets this doctor after he's dropped off these people that he's beat up this um the actress danielle millicure and they clearly have chemistry and they're hitting it off and they're gonna they're gonna be something like the kelly lynch dalton yes they go off on a date and they get on her boat and they go to a sandbar and they set up their umbrellas and they're gonna relax inconspicuously drinking blue moon beers in the middle of the ocean. Both of them.

Is Blue Moon a beach beer? That felt like Spawn to me. Okay. It was like very obviously like showing the labels. What's your chief beach beer? A Modelo. Oh, okay. Was that when you're south of the border? No, just anywhere.

Okay. Yeah. And during that scene, he kind of like clams up and has a moment of discomfort. And he plays it very subtly and strangely where you don't really know what's going on with him. You know that something is wrong, but he doesn't. It's like he realizes he's gotten too close. He's having too much of a human experience. And the minute he starts having a human experience, he has to pull away. And it feels like a tidy little metaphor for the Jake Gyllenhaal acting experience

where every time he plays somebody who feels human he's like ah actually I need to put a little mustard on this so that it's not too normal I think he's very credible

beating the shit out of people I pretty much buy it With the exception of Conor McGregor I would agree That was where I was going to go next Conor McGregor is the heavy

in this movie Yeah Conor McGregor who hasn't had a UFC fight in four years I have no idea. Yeah. Sounds like it. I believe I heard Ariel Helwani say this on a podcast. He's going into WWE, it sounds like, right? Is that true? Well, I can't tell because I read some article and he was

beefing with some guy and he's like, I'm going to fight him. But they were like, he's going to fight him on Raw. So I figured. It's surprising it took him that long to make that pivot. Have you been keeping up with Raw lately? You know, I don't really watch wrestling, but I rely on you to update me on any comings and goings. I'm not current, unfortunately. There have been too many movies recently. Do you think Doug Liman gave Conor McGregor a single note? How does one give Conor McGregor a note? So he just walks in.

So the idea is he plays this guy named Knox. It's too bad Amanda's not here. Incredible beat because he literally has the word Knox tattooed on his belly three times like thug life and then also has a Knox gold chain yeah and he's like I'm Knox and I was hoping you'd do some Connor well I thought he was terrible in this movie and honestly didn't quite ruin it because like I'm not I'm not above enjoying Conor McGregor and Jake Gyllenhaal fight but I could not get out of my mind.

I hated him in Roadhouse, but do we need him in everything? Like, should we have had Conor McGregor as Fade Rautha in Dune 2 and haven't been like, Paul Atreides! Heard they call you the Mauda Deep! You just look like a moose to me! Like, let's get Conor McGregor in everything.

I didn't know that was coming. You had that in your back pocket, huh? Yeah. That was good. That hit me in the shower last night. I'm going to drop this. In the shower, eh? Yeah, thinking of Conor McGregor.

Some of my best ideas. Some of my best blog posts. Is that true? Yeah. Do you keep a whiteboard in there so you can take notes no i just have to store it up in the mind power in the brain bin yeah good for you buddy that's nice sticks it sticks i'll tell you do you chris do you think that blackthorn was inspired by mcgregor like some of the b-roll that they let it is i'm definitely vibing off andy andy put a blackthorn

up today that is like a 40 and 21 you know it's like old school like it's a yokich night do you think that voice work is the future of podcasting or the past probably the past

you think so I feel like I'm you're over your are you past your prime I just I think I need to go back to working on takes and just leave all

my comedy in the past well you know what before we go too far you did say you had a take that you wanted to share. Oh, yeah. Unrelated to the Roadhouse film.

Oh, about Alien Romulus? Yeah. First of all, yes. I mean, 100%. Fede Alvarez. Fede Alvarez was like, you know what we're missing from Alien?

Extreme amounts of blood. Yeah. And just putting that in the trailer, which I don't think Covenant lacked blood. The beginning is extremely gory and it's a little less gory yeah the naomi harris scenes in and amy simon stuff like in in covenant is fucking disgusting and awesome but like having just gore everywhere the second thing i was going to say is that um and i saw other people making this point on i

think justin crowe made this point on Twitter too, there's just nothing like an alien trailer. You honestly could just make 47 alien trailers for unmade movies, and I would probably watch them a hundred times because of the sound effect. And if you cut the rhythm of somebody sweating and running down a dark spaceship hallway, looking behind them and

then give me one fucking xenomorph and the xenomorphs in this man they're flying around oh my god they're pretty scary so i'm fucking in man okay but that's not the take you want me to do the other time i want you to do the real take all right i don't know so i just want to know i just want to talk it out yeah i just want to talk it out. Yeah, okay. I just want to talk it out. Safe space. No one's listening. Just me and you. Why are we so resistant

to making an alien from the POV of a man? I just want to talk it out because if we keep going back and saying, okay, we have this wild new take on alien. I have a new take. Let men have alien.

That's what you're saying. What's wrong with that? One alien movie about a guy? Yep. I have a new take. Let men have Alien. That's what you're saying. What's wrong with that? One Alien movie about a guy? Yep. I think actually, honestly, Alien set in the world of men's rights activists is an incredible idea. I don't mean extremity.

Because that is the ultimate thing. It's like, let a man get pregnant with an alien and give birth to an alien to better understand femininity and the woman's experience. I love Sigourney Weaver. I experience. I love Sigourney Weaver. I love my life. I love Sigourney Weaver and I love Catherine Waterston and I do love women very much.

If I gave you the option of three years after Aliens, there's a Michael Biehn Alien movie. Wouldn't you be kind of into it? Yeah, of course. Wouldn't you be into a prequel with paxton and bian here's we're doing incredible things with ai or is that out of the question like we're doing incredible things i'm gonna go on to sora when i get home and i'm gonna be like make me an alien movie but with with hudson and hicks but i mean we do have that already yeah i know but you you just want so you just want to remove

ripley is what you're saying no i'm not but you want newt out of the paint i don't like the nude storyline what no when are we doing aliens i don't know what you just you and i like when are we gonna no i'm just on the show on this show or on rewatch on the rewatchables i don't know i don't know you got a birthday coming up he never acknowledges those they're too close to thanksgiving because he wants you to be 37 forever that's probably it you're so beautiful at 37 uh i love i love both takes on the alien films come on don't leave me hanging like let's talk it out do you think i honestly don't know what you're talking about like there are so many men in all the alien movies but i think it's very funny that you

worked hard on this i texted you this date and you and you were like, yes, go off, King. And now you're, like, making me do it, and you're making me feel like a fucking weirdo. First of all, it's not true. I just wrote ha-ha-ha-ha-ha. I didn't even hit you with an LMAO. I just hit you with the ha-ha-has. So that was a muted. Okay, so from now on, when you text me back ha ha ha that means that you're

giving me a muted laugh maybe okay maybe not I support you in all of your desire to build better and stronger takes

I think your takes are wonderful I kind of don't understand this take but I like it I will say something about trailers though so I went to

I went to the new Bev last night and I saw Play It As It Lays the very little scene adaptation of the Joan Didion novel. Yeah. A book that I loved.

And I saw like some of the movie on VHS a long time ago and I didn't really remember it at all. But you know, the New Bev, they program the trailers beforehand. So they always show these vintage trailers.

And they were very Joan Didion and Gregory Dunn themed. Oh, cool. Because they wrote the adaptation of Play It As It Lays, and so they were showing a bunch of movies that they had written. Panic in Needle Park.

What's the Duval Priest movie? True Confessions. They wrote that, which I think is based on his novel. Yeah. So they wrote a movie called Up Close and Personal starring Michelle Pfeiffer and Robert Redford about a grizzled, successful TV news producer, reporter,

who falls in love with a young, aspiring female reporter. Yeah. Which is like a perfectly nice down-the-middle 90s movie. But the trailer, which features the guy Don, who is the in-a-world guy, I was like, movies have never been more back in my life. Than when this guy is like... Than when I watched this guy saying words about, he was like, she was a woman who wanted to climb and he was a man at the top.

Together, they rose even higher than they ever could have imagined. That's all we need. Just put that on a fucking alien trailer. That's the same thing for the internal affairs trailer is just like, he's a cop who pushes it too far. He's a cop who'll bring him down internal affairs and i'm like yeah just always works why did we vacate the narration on the

trailer she's the seventh woman to be in an aliens movie no one understands why we don't get the perspective of just to everybody i i don't actually think that I'm just asking yeah you're just asking questions yeah no I'll tell you what I support you no matter what

okay whatever happens after this podcast goes up Bob's like should I cut this do not cut it there's a 0% chance that I'm cutting this

I would never cut this I only cut it if I don't laugh if I don't laugh then I cut it but if it's funny to me, that's a good rule of thumb. Is the take funny or is what's going to happen funny?

All the above. All the above. Just like Maino said. I have been wounded by that exact strategy by Bobby in the past where something is clearly funny that I wish was not in, but nevertheless, it goes in.

Okay, quickly back to Roadhouse. Conor McGgregor can't act yeah he has a strong physical presence there's a big fight scene in the middle of the movie where he kind of arrives in the movie and i would say 80 of it rocks and then there's 20 that's just cgi like whip pan wipes with the cutting that is kind of annoying yes and i wish it wasn't in there and i wish that the movie was a little bit more practical i just want to get that out there about the film i think that, so you mean more practical like less CGI or more practical

like less Doug Wyman shooting stuff with pinhole cameras and like jumping around and like... I don't mind his I mean he's doing some experimenting but it's not consistent. Like he moves into the first person POV's point of view a couple of times where you see what it would be like

to be getting punched in the head by conor mcgregor and it's effective yes but it has not really been set up by anything else in the movie and we never see it again yes so formally speaking it just doesn't really work because you get whipped ripped out of the movie and then ripped back into some other kind of a movie more so the like when a guy's being thrown across the room, I don't want to be able to tell that it's digitally altered. Yes. And I know a lot of times things like this

are digitally altered in all movies. So I'm not begging for no CGI whatsoever, but I just don't want it to be as noticeable as it is at times in this movie. Can I just say briefly, in the interest of just shouting people out here, Billy Manguson and Arturo Castro play two of the bad guys.

Billy Manguson is basically the big one. He's kind of the son of Ben Gazzara's character. Yes, and then Arturo plays one of his henchmen, but is essentially not built for it. He's just a very funny, droll like kind of sweet guy they are fucking great and this movie does have a lot of fun around the edges and i really appreciate that lucas gage uh most recently seen having an abomination of a golf swing in fargo is in this movie as like kind of uh the up-and-coming bouncer and yeah i enjoyed it you know what i mean it's

just it's just, I wouldn't, much to Doug Lyman's chagrin, I do not think we'll be talking about this at awards season. I do not think that's the case either. Did you attend his premiere at South by Southwest? I didn't. I was here with you. Any regrets?

No, but, oh, one other thing, just to throw out at you, is obviously we can't quantify these things in any normal way because it'll just be hours spent impression eyeballs like things will people watch this well it's this and uh we got three body problem this weekend which is the new benny off and y series uh which i i actually watched all of and you finished it i did you know my wife and i loved it you did yeah i really got

into it okay um but two things where i don't know how much Roadhouse would have a hold on the culture necessarily if it had been theaters. But the fact that we're just compressing this stuff in and pumping it out over a weekend is just very interesting to me. I don't know that Roadhouse would make $20 million this weekend otherwise. I don't know. If Free Body Problem would be a cultural phenomenon if it had been stretched out over two months but Jake Gyllenhaal

hasn't been box office gold in the last 10 years he's been in some successful ambulance wind up doing did it just completely very badly did very poorly despite the fact that it is an out and out masterpiece I think that the movie would have done fine if it was in theaters it is best experience in

theaters for sure. They fought very hard to get it. It's not in any theaters. Bezos said no. Just Prime. Okay. As far as I know. Didn't they take it to his yacht and screen it for him and he was just like, still no?

Yeah, that was rumored. That's great. I can't confirm that. Is that real? That was a story I read. That's actually a real rumor? It was rumored, yeah. Oh my God.

That's amazing. They tried to go over Jen Salke's head and show it directly to Bezos. Chris, how did it play on the yacht? You were there. You were driving. You were the captain. I'm below deck

but for Bezos, yeah. You were showing him some body weight workouts. That's right. He's looking so ripped these days. Get down tough, brother. The thing is with Prime Video, like we saw this

with Red, White, and Blue. We saw this with Saltburn when it hit Prime Video. The right kind of a movie can take off. i feel like a lot of people watch that jennifer lopez streaming movie that she made yeah so there's a world in which some like and this is very reacher jack ryan coded yeah it feels like in that programming and and the boys to some extent too like there's that the male targeting for Amazon. It feels like this movie fits in nicely.

But I don't think there's a lot of people sitting around wondering like where's their Roadhouse remake either. If they've even seen the original Roadhouse. I feel like it has been promoted fairly well. I can never tell with that sort of thing. We live in LA. So it's really, I mean billboards being everywhere. I mean I just think that they had a lot of ads during sports. I'll say that.

Yeah. I'm not sure. Bobby, you're going to watch this, right? Yeah. I will check this out. Like tonight're going to watch this, right? Yeah. I will check this out. Like tonight? Like can't wait? Or you'll get around to it?

I don't know about tonight. I've heard a little bit about this three-body problem. Come up a couple times from noted cinephile Chris Ryan. But no, I like the original Roadhouse a lot. I saw it in a pack theater at Vidiot's a couple months ago when I was in LA for the Globes. The live show. Yeah. And it was just phenomenal. in a pack theater at Vidiot's a couple months ago when I was in LA for the Globes. For the live show, yeah. And it was just phenomenal.

Just plays amazing to this day. It's an incredible show. Great unintentional comedy. Swayze is iconic. We don't have to do the compare and contrast, but it is very interesting to see what we feel the need to infuse our blockbusters

with now versus then, or even our action films. Did Roadhouse know how funny it was when it was made and released i don't think so i don't think so i don't think so i think that they those guys like did like 72 takes of like the fight between swayze and and the guy with the necklace this is the thing that i think in unlike immaculate which knows how self-aware it is the self-awareness that this Roadhouse has, the 2024 version, I think is working against it a little bit.

Well, it's like in Roadhouse, it's self-evidently a Western. And then in this Roadhouse, they have to talk about how it's a Western. Like they have to have a character be like, you're like the sheriff who comes in to clean up the town. And like, but the sheriff at the end, what happens to him?

It's like, all right, you know, I got that just from watching the movie. Yeah, I just saw A Fistful of Dollars projected. Yeah, that's a good one. There are a couple of scenes that are directly aping A Fistful of Dollars. And I guess Yojimbo too, because that's inspired by that. But it's overt. The homages are overt.

Junk fights. Let's talk a little bit about this, because this is one of our most complicated, in terms of like parliamentary procedures, I don't want to overwhelm the house here. It's confusing. Well, let me just very quickly, are the fights in the new Roadhouse good to you? I like the actual bar brawls.

I think that the like championship bouts in Roadhouse are kind of like, okay. There's also stuff that happens in the fights between McGregor and Gyllenhaal, which I was like, oh shit, I'd never seen that before. And then I went in preparing for garbage fights. I was like,

ah, I see where you got that. Yes. Particularly in the final fight. There's a lot of your Adkins, Michael Jai White, even like Tony job, Jet Li,

like the most, the recent vintage Statham, Adkins, Michael Jai White, even like Tony Jaa, Jet Li, like the most, the recent vintage, Statham, the recent vintage of great movie fighters have carved a lot of land. Yeah, Eco-UA. Like,

those guys have done so much and those filmmakers who are making those movies have done so much that it's hard to do anything new under the sun. That's why I love the John Wick movie so much.

It's because I can feel Stahelski watching everything and being like, we got to try this. No one's ever done this. Yeah. He's also like, I've now moved into like, this is, I'm in Buster Keaton zone with this rather than John Woo. And also grand scale action filmmaking that is getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

So like, that's a good place to start maybe. Junk fights, John wick is probably our most known praise celebrated contemporary fight genre movie. They made four of them. I don't know if they'll make another one. They will. It seems like they will. They're doing a spinoff next year with the on an armist ballerina.

And Stahelski is like now the chief creative officer of junk of john wick right like yes although i think he's doing a highlander movie next but he's like didn't he go back in to like edit ballerina or anything but there wasn't there that's rumored yeah len wiseman's directing it but it sounds like he's putting his imprimatur on it wick though is really slick studio movie and so it raises a question of like what is is a junk fight? Because when we've been doing this in the past, there have been movies that feel like not quite B movies, but not quite A movies. Yeah. So in the past,

when we've done garbage, you know, garbage fish, garbage spies, garbage space, whatever we've, the different permutations of this, we've usually said that the way something qualifies as garbage is if it is about nothing more than itself.

Like, 2001 is not a garbage space movie, but Event Horizon is. In some ways, you can make a qualitative distinction, but for me, it's more about, like, is fighting and fights the whole sum total of why you would watch this movie? Aha. Now, that's a good way to think about it. That changes my calculus somewhat. It changes my calculus, too, is fighting and fights the whole sum total of why you would watch this movie. Aha.

Now that's a good way to think about it. So that changes my calculus. It changes my calculus too. And also like fighting is actually like, I'm into fighting a lot, but I don't know if I'm in, I'm as obsessed with it about like, as like Shane Jason. Right.

You know what I mean? Like I, it is not like, I don't have like a Tony jaw shrine, you know? I'm like, okay, like good fight. And I can, I recognize what I, it is not like, I don't have like a Tony jaw shrine, you know? I'm like, okay, like good fight.

And I can, I recognize what I like and don't like. So you need the movie to work as a movie, but it also needs to be a movie because of the fighting. I really don't care what the story is. If it's a nun with the antichrist. Yeah. There can be no junk horror.

Yeah. Cause it's all junk horror. Yes. Hmm. So with junk fights, I have like my favorite fights. I wrote down some of my favorite fights in movie history.

Okay. Which aren't necessarily from garbage fight movies. And then I made a list of garbage fights, albeit, I think, very much weighted towards contemporary

in the last 20 years. Okay. As always, I want to thank you for doing the work. Okay. I do want to hear about your favorite fights. This is not the history of the. Okay. As always, I want to thank you for doing the work. Okay. I do want to hear about your favorite fights.

This is not the history of the best fights in movie history, but where to begin? Well, I'll ask a procedural question. Fight Club is not garbage fights.

It's not. However, when the fighting is happening, it is. Okay. And as soon as the fighting in the movie stops,

it is no longer. because i was going to say fight club is not garbage fights but snatch is snatch 100 is snatch's bare knuckle boxing with a bunch of weird blimey bros and the movie itself is kind of like roadhouse in that it's like a self-referential movie about other movies. About his first movie. Yes, yes. So I would say yes. But are you positing the Brad Pitt fights

as one of the great movie fights? Not in Snatch. I don't think, I mean, I think the Fight Club fight, especially the one with Leto, is like incredible, but I was not going to put it

in my great movie fights. The reason I like it is because it's different from a lot of the other fights that we'll talk about here because it just feels like what it's like when you get hit with a fist where there's no like crazy sound effect. It just feels like flesh flapping. You know, it's a, it's an accurate representation of something as opposed to when you're watching a Jet Li movie and there's all this fully about the crunching impact of his foot smashing against the guy's jaw it's slightly different okay what so give me your give me

break it down give me your list of garbage fights yeah snatch ombak yeah undisputed three redemption 100 which is basically Scott Adkins's like fighting tournament taking place inside of a Russian prison. Yes. Brings together a lot of my interests. I think that's the best of the Scott Adkins movies. You can make a case for Universal Soldier Day of Reckoning, but I like that one. And this is very purely fighting.

The first Roadhouse? Yes, absolutely. A double feature of Iko Ue's The Raid and The Night Comes for Us? So, let's talk about The Raid and The Night Comes for Us. So, let's talk about The Raid. Okay. It's the first raid,

not the second one. The second one is too much of like a gangster epic to be a fight movie. Okay. Even though they fight a lot.

Can a movie be too good even if it still fits the parameters of your definition? Which is to say, the movie, the reason you're there is for the fighting.

You show up to Roadhouse to watch Patrick Swayze and Sam Elliott kick some ass, right? That's why you showed up to the movie theater. You show up to the raid to watch Iko Uwais kill people. Fight his way through. And there's a lot, to be fair, like I've been trying to grapple with this, but like, is a movie a gun movie or a fight movie

is kind of a little complicated, especially with John Wick. But I think that the first raid and the idea that this guy has such like a singular purpose it's just to get from the first floor to the through this building it gives it like a compression that feels garbagey whereas the raid 2 is this like it's in prison obviously the prison fight scene in the raid 2 is like one of the great sequences of modern action films. But it has almost like a quasi-Godfather kind of crime story underneath of it that sort of elevates it.

Okay. What else? Well, The Night Comes for Us is fucking insane. I just wanted to put out the 12-minute fight at the end of that. It's one of the great, great fight sequences. I have did he

did Evans didn't direct that right he just produced it is that one that's Timo Tahahato yeah yeah

he's really good and then I have it's great because in the trailer for that they're like from the director of Headshot like of course

I had Bloodsport Enter the Dragon just as like kind of you know originals two classics yeah of course. I had Bloodsport and Enter the Dragon just as like kind of, you know, originals. Two classics, yeah, of course. And then jokingly, but not jokingly,

I have Million Dollar Baby. I don't think that fits. Can a boxing movie be a junk fight movie? Can a guy lead Alien? I'm not sure. Can a guy play Ripley? I mean, Undisputed 3 is born out of the

Undisputed film the Wesley Snipes and Ving Rhames star in about a prison fight. Yeah. Right? So, that is kind of a boxing movie

because it's a boxer in prison. It's so awesome that they're like, we're just going to keep making these. I love when they do that. I fucking love when they do that.

What about like, um, yeah, I'm curious to know your list. Cause like, how different did we read these, this, this assignment?

Well, to me, it's more about the fights and not about the movies. You know, like we talked about the atomic blonde staircase fight, which is an incredibly invigorating and exciting piece of stunt work and choreography in a movie that is like fun and good but you're not there just for the fights but because the fight was so so awesome

and it played so well people were like you got to go see this for the fight it wasn't made for the fight in fact that i was crestfallen i mean we so atomic blonde we saw in south by which is always a little bit for as much as I love a lot of movies that always come out of South By, the South By effect is real where you're seeing it with a honestly fever pitch of anticipation and people losing their mind

during the screening. So you walk out of Atomic Blonde just like we walked out of Long Shot, two of Shirley's throne movies, and you're just like, well, they did it. That movie will make $400 million and then it

like opens to modest numbers and is on demand in like six weeks speaking of the south by effect are you coming on for the civil war episode sure do you want me to have a similar alien style hot take for civil war we should let women fight our civil war is that can you flip it on us uh i think it's challenging because like Oldboy has one of the great fight sequences of all time. Yes. I have that on my list as well.

Die Hard has a great fight sequence. Raiders of the Lost Ark has a great fight sequence. Do you name these? Or would you like to put these on your list? Born Identity.

Born Identity is a great fight sequence. The magazines and pen scene in the apartment. Amazing. And then that guy just kills himself. The Matrix has an

amazing fight sequence. Hey! How about last year? The killer versus the brute in The Killer. Incredible one. Great example. A little different from some of what we're describing here, where that one is very digitally altered, but looks great.

You can't tell us much of what we're talking about. Scott Pilgrim versus the world. Kill Bill. Like these are movies with great fight sequences. Saving Private Ryan has a really intense fight sequence. So if you, you'll allow weapons. Well, I'm not. So these are fight sequence so if you you'll allow weapons well I'm not so these are

I I'll allow knives but no guns okay thank you how do you feel about that that's exactly what I was thinking okay

I like it how often people like pull out knives in Roadhouse and it's just like it gets kicked out of their hands why do you have a knife yeah yeah

what movie did I just watch where I thought this was a bit strange Monkey Man Monkey Man one of the things bit strange? Monkey Man? Monkey Man. One of the things I like about Monkey Man is that there's like two guns in the whole movie. That's good. You know, and there's been a lot of talk about how this is like a John Wick. It's not a John Wick because John Wick, he's got his jacket.

He's got a gun ballot. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It's gun fu. It's totally different. I mean, Gladiator. Sure.

Eastern Promises. Yes. Kingsman. Like these movies have good fightingadiator. Sure. Eastern Promises. Yes. Kingsman. These movies have good fighting in them. Yes. But they are not made entirely for the fight. It doesn't even have to be a good movie. They Live, which is a really good movie,

but it has a 10-minute fight that was choreographed by Roddy Piper and Keith David, but it's not really that germane to the movie. It's not. In fact, the movie basically stops so that they can have their fight. So that these guys can wrestle in an alley and keep trying to make each other try sunglasses on.

Well, and even a movie like Blazing Saddles, which culminates in a town-wide fist fight, the movie wasn't made for that moment. It's a funny representation of what would happen in a western town in the event that the kind of mania that happens in Placing Saddles would happen. But that's not a garbage fight. That's not garbage fights. Can I ask you a question just off the top of my head?

Both because I just, sorry, I'm sorry, I just love female-led action movies. Yeah, absolutely. So we've heard. What's your favorite fight in the Kill Bill movies? I think the Crazy 88 sequence is wild, bravura, insanely underrated. I mean, obviously, the whole movie is this big wet homage to so many

other movies before it, but the way that that entire 20-minute stretch is cut together is like levitation material for me. That's like some of the best shit I've ever seen in a movie theater. I was in college when the movie came out and I saw it three times. Um,

but I, there are some people who think that like the Daryl Hannah showdown in two is, is the best one. You think that's the best one? That's my favorite. Yeah. I mean, that one's really fun.

That one's really great. Um, they're all good in that movie. Like not every movie that aspires to do that. That's him like waiting his whole life. To do that. To make a fight movie. Yeah.

And nailing it. But I don't know. I mean like the problem with some of this stuff too is like people may be saying to themselves like you're not talking about Bruce Lee enough. Or you're not talking about the masters of the form from the 70s and the 80s enough. And it's like the thing is that this stuff does evolve and it improves in some cases some of the Bruce Lee movies if you go back

and look at them feel slower the fight sequences don't seem as well choreographed did Kentucky Fried Movie also kind of ruin Bruce Lee movies for you? no

it did not it only amplified their greatness you know like I really like the Shaw Brothers movies and growing up listening to Wu-Tang got this whole new world

of experience around movies like this. Now, those movies are made just for the fights. There's some swords in them, so I don't know if swords, where they fit on your dagger scale. But, you know, Five Deadly Venoms, to see that movie and to see like, it's just like the Godzilla movies where it's like it's only made for the set pieces. It's only made... Like the mythology and the narrative

is so cursory relative to the rest of the movie. It's just about getting to the five fights. Do you think Crouching Tiger is too good? Yes. And too beautiful?

Yes, but I encourage people to revisit the fight sequences because they are fucking awesome. Yeah. Like they're so beautiful and so exciting and you know, Wu Ping and you know, Wu Ping

and, you know, him, like, kind of at the height of his powers working with those actors. So, again, like, inside the movie, it's a garbage fight. And then as soon as

the fight is over, it's a beautiful Ang Lee film about duty and love and, you know, what made sense between these two people at that given time. So, I don't know.

This is a really hard one to do. I like your list. Do we need additions? I feel like a lot of the movies are too epic. We don't have a lot. I was joking about Million Dollar Baby. We didn't put a lot of films in where it's about boxing or UFC. We don't have Warrior. We don't have

Diggstown. I don't know. Diggstown's too funny. Yeah. Anchorman? Yeah. Anchorman? Yeah. Anchorman. If we're putting Snatch in, is Sherlock Holmes not going in? Oh, because he's a pugilist? Yeah.

That's revisionist. What about RRR? I'm an originalist when it comes to Sherlock Holmes. What does that mean? Well, I don't even, actually, I never read Sherlock Holmes, so he may have been a pugilist. Oh, I love, you don't, what? I don't think I did. I'm stunned to hear that. I didn't.

Avid reader that you are? Yeah. Never read Hound of the Baskervilles? I'll tell you something did. I'm stunned to hear that. I didn't. Avid reader that you are. Yeah. Never read Hound of the Baskervilles. I'll tell you something that's really boring to read about fights. Like when you're reading a book and they're like, and then I punched him and then I ducked it and I punched him in the ear and then I punched him in the solar plexus. I honestly can't remember a single book I've read that features a sequence like that. There's a lot in the books that I read.

Like spy novels? No, like more like private investigator novels. Did you? You're reading like like private investigator novels. Did you... You're reading like Dashiell Hammond. You're like, he threw a punch and it hit me in the ear and I cocked back and knocked him out. You know? It's like, all right.

You ever been in a fight? Not one that would be like a fight. Like, you know, scraps in middle school and stuff like that. And then like some shoving matches and stuff. How close... I'm actually quite... I'm typically the peac stuff. How close? I'm actually quite, I'm typically the peacemaker. I mean,

I'm aware of that. Yeah. Unless you're talking about women in alien movies, in which case, then you're starting wars. I think, I think you'd do well. In a fight?

Low center of gravity. You're merciless. We know this, having heard your takes. I'm more like this iteration of dalton where it's like there's a line and if i go past that line there's no coming back but up until then really agreeable do it bits i don't think i've ever suggestions to ip i don't think i've ever

seen you blow your top i've seen you become incredibly frustrated yes and i basically throw moody but I don't I'm not like I'm about to fucking you need to get me out of here or else I'm going to fuck this guy up or I'm going to get

fucking knocked out by this guy more likely. How close do you think me and Zach have been to putting us in that position on golf courses in the past? Oh, like routinely.

Routinely. It never has happened though. I actually when that happens I disassociate. When you guys are like we're hitting golf balls at like 53 year old men. What do you mean we're hitting golf balls at 53 year old men? When they hit-

Pace of play. Yes. But like when you're just like, I'm hitting and this guy who's like got a war wound and is like hobbling up the fairway is going to have to eat my fucking Callaway. Did I tell you the story about my dad in Palm Springs? No. Okay. It's a good story. Maybe you did, but not on the pod. But tell me. This could about my dad in Palm Springs? No. Okay, that's a good story. Maybe you did, but not on the pod.

This could have been a Garbage Fights movie. This would have been a fun movie. So my dad came to town a few years ago. My dad had never been to Palm Springs before. If he had, he hadn't played golf there. I know this story. So we're on like the fourth tee, and all three of us tee off,

and there's a big hill down the center of the fairway, so you can't see if there's somebody on the other side of the fairway. So we tee off, and all three of us had pretty good there's a big hill down the center of the fairway so you can't see if there's somebody on the other side of the fairway so we tee off and all three of us have pretty good drives congrats thanks and it's me my dad and a friend of his and we get down to the over the hill and down to the bottom of the hole we're all kind of around the green looks pretty good and there's two guys waiting for us there and then there's another cart in front of them that two women are sitting in and we can hear as we're starting to come up the hill what the fuck is your problem yeah so obviously we hit into these guys we didn't mean

to hit any of these guys but we did and as we get closer and closer it becomes clearer and clearer that these men are like roughly 78 to 88 years old yeah they're older my dad's in his late 60s at this time my dad is a big guy really knows how to handle himself and as it becomes as my dad steps out of the cart he starts walking towards these guys just to hear what they're saying

is that right not to confront them uh huh physically but when he starts walking towards them they start backing up and start getting

quieter and quieter as they're talking and then is it because your dad pulled a 38 out or just no nothing like no gun fo fu on the golf course

uh and i watched something that we don't really see typically in our generation or at least in our life experiences which is like these guys were afraid that my dad was gonna beat the shit out of them on a golf course you we've gotten into some arguments on the golf course. We've gotten into some arguments in bars. But as an adult, not since I've been in college, have I ever been in a situation where I was like, I'm going to fight? Yeah. Well, so you never expect on the golf course that this is ever going to end up in fighting? Not really. I think you guys used to make me nervous. And now I know that it's just the way you guys just

express your whatever it is inside of you. Discontent. Yeah. Discontent. Your issues with the political system or whatever. You think that's whatever it is discontent of you yeah discontent your your issues with like the political system or whatever you think that's what it is i have no idea i just sit there and i usually look at my phone or talk to jeff you think i'm like because of keem jeffries can't get this over the line but i'm like god damn it yeah because they keep dragging hunter in front of congress i've got it so you but you don't that's got to... So you... But you don't... That's the only time when you feel like

you may get into a quarrel? Or at least, like, I'd have to get your back, I guess. I was watching... I guess. I was watching... I would get it.

I would get it, but I would probably try to break it up. I'd be like, come on, you have a lot more to lose. You'd tear me off the other guy.

Yeah. And then I'd be like, we got to get Otani's interpreter in here. Take the fall. Bobby, does your generation fight? Not really. Physically fight?

No. I mean, I only ever feel like I'm going to borrow your word to get into a quarrel if it's like at a bar after 2 a.m. Yeah. And I'm like,

this person is just being downright disrespectful. Yeah. And whereas I would usually pull a Chris, more of the Philadelphian comes out in me and I'm like, I am going to leave this place now. Now's the time to leave. I was watching them in preparation for this. Wait, important question. Do we need

more fights in our culture? You know, I don't know. Because I was just thinking about this the other day. It's funny how in college and when you're in your early 20s, you're growing up, if you see a fight on the street, if you see two guys like throwing down or if there's a bar fight at a bar you're in or a fight at a party you're at, you're kind

of like, it's like, oh, another Friday night. You know, not because like you live in such like a violent environment, but just because like there's some kind of like, yeah, this feels like an extension of shoving one another on a basketball court. And now we've added alcohol into it blowing off steam and now we're fighting and you know like and then i think maybe you just see one or two really bad fights in your life and you're just like oh shit which i have seen me too same thing in college i watched a i was in the middle of a bad fight and kind of like pulled myself out of that fight and i watched a guy get really fucked up i don't remember if you were there. I remember there was a very early birthday party

when we first moved to LA that we went to and a guy got his leg broken at a bar. Remember that? Oh, yeah. And I was like, this is fucked up, brother. I don't want to be a part of it. Yeah, we're getting too old for that too. But I was just thinking about that,

about whether or not now I've kind of overcompensated and now I'm too oversensitive to it. Maybe it is kind of like it just has to happen every once in a while to let the it's like what do they say in the Godfather just go let the bad blood out

and now we're too pent up you think we should do a Fight Club style me and you well we can't talk about it good point I was gonna say that there is

who's Tyler Durden oh I'm definitely tired of Tyler Durden obviously Chris obviously Chris like it's never gonna be more obvious I'd like to think that I'm Tyler Durden for many Chris. Obviously, Chris. It's never been a more obvious answer.

I'd like to think that I'm Tyler Durden for many men. I think they do too. I was watching Equalizer 3 in preparation for this podcast because I was thinking about including that because there's a... It fucking rocks. Scene where Denzel Washington takes a young mafioso and activates his radial nerve. And he was like this on a scale. He literally goes through was like, this on a scale,

he literally goes through. He's like on a scale of one to 10, we're at a two right now. This is a three. If I go to four, you'll shit on yourself. He does that whilst sitting down at a restaurant. So I was thinking about that.

I love that scene. I don't want to ever do that to anybody, but I would love to have the gravitas that Denzel Washington has to just like stare back at a maitre d' who's like, we're going to give you the worst

table and be like, we're at a two now, you know? If you put me in the atrium area where I want to be like, then we'll be good. But if you, if, if

this, if we're going down a path, I can't pull myself back. You really brought it today. You've never let me down. It's unbelievable. Do you want to be, then we'll be good. But if we're going down a path, I can't pull myself back. You really brought it today. You've never let me down. It's unbelievable. Do you want to bring back Muad'Dib McGregor?

Conor McGregor in Dune 2 is... Muad'Dib. That's very special. I don't really feel like we have a very good list, but I feel like we have the best list we can make. I think that people will be disappointed

by the list, but sometimes it's the journey and not the end product. I completely agree. Don't post the list on social media. And don't publish in the newspaper that I'm mad about the list, but sometimes it's the journey and not the end product. I completely agree. Don't post the list on social media. And don't publish in the newspaper that I'm mad about the list. Just title this episode, Are There Too Many Women in the Alien Universe? Top 5 Fist Fights Chris Watched.

Would Conor McGregor Have Improved Dune 2? Slash. Yeah. Sidney Sweeney something something. Yeah, Sidney Sweeney something something yeah Sidney Sweeney uh okay any other final closing thoughts

on Roadhouse and or Junk Fights and or Immaculate and or the Alien trailer no I think I'm good you're gonna watch what are you gonna watch

this weekend thanks for asking that question well I'm gonna go see the movie Ghostbusters colon Frozen Empire on a Friday morning cause I fucking hate myself.

That's tomorrow. Okay. But I got to show out for Carrie Coon. Yeah. Are you going to give Three-Body another episode? So I watched the pilot and I didn't love it. I really didn't love it. Okay.

But a lot of smart people are really advocating for it. I think that you, I don't know. You're yourself included. I know that your time is, is limited. And I, I found myself getting sucked into a feeling that I had not had, which is almost like I need,

I need to start the next episode. So if you can give yourself the freedom or space to like, be like, maybe I could watch two episodes tonight or three episodes tonight. Then that I think is the ideal. It is a binge. I think, for a reason. I do trust you. Every once in a while, though, we diverge.

We do. So maybe I'll give it another try. The only other thing is I have to watch a bunch of Steve Martin movies. Just a little tease for next week's episode. We're doing Steve Martin Hall of Fame. There's a wonderful documentary about Steve Martin coming to Apple TV Plus next week. Massive in scope. Four hours long. He's made a lot of movies. You have a favorite Steve Martin movie to Apple TV Plus next week. Massive in scope. Four hours long.

He's made a lot of movies. You have a favorite Steve Martin movie? Three Amigos. That's a pretty good one. You take that over Planes, Trains? I really enjoy that movie a lot. It's clearly the movie that changed his movie career. I know.

I mean, I'm supposed to say The Jerk or whatever, but... You don't like The Jerk? I do, but... Hey, we didn't talk about M.M. at Walsh. Oh, rest in peace, man. R.I.P. Fucking Blood, but Hey, we didn't talk about M. M. at Walsh. Oh, rest in peace. R. I. P.

Fucking blood. Simple. One of the great all time performances and just incredible in that movie. Frankly, incredible in every movie has ever appeared in very, very funny in the jerk.

He hates those cans. I love that part. Uh, one of the, one of the signature of that guys of the era. I can't wait till I look like him. Wait,

um, he was, he was 88 years old when he died and he was 88 for 40 consecutive years. He's Brimley. Like where it's just like you just turned 50

look 70 stayed that way till 80. You want that for yourself? I don't know if we really allow people to do that anymore now that we're all Huberman pilled

we're supposed to like be like optimizing. Are you on Ozempic? No. Would you? No. Would you? No. I don't really think... I can't do anything... I want to get toned. I want to get fit. But there's nothing really I can do about the weight.

It just is always rock solid at the same weight. I'm kind of at the same place in my life. I kind of... I'm fully protein-pilled. Bobby told me it's just like all I care about is my protein intake. Okay, because that makes you stronger? It gives me energy.

Increases musculature? Mental clarity? It gives you more sustained energy. It helps you feel fuller for longer. And also it helps you maintain your muscle mass as you get older and older. You lose that muscle faster. And when you find yourself in Russian prison.

You know what's so interesting about that? I had this incredible experience with you and Amanda earlier this week where we recorded the Babylon Watch Along, which is coming out on Tuesday. And right before we started recording, Amanda brought Chick-fil-A. And she put a chicken sandwich in front of me and I ate it in roughly 1.2 minutes.

And then you went through. And I was, I felt great. Yes. So maybe exactly what you're saying. You also had three caffeinated beverages, didn't you? No, just one. Just one. Okay. So maybe exactly what you're saying. You also had three caffeinated beverages, didn't you? No, just one, just one. Okay.

Just one. But I felt the whole day. I felt good. That's great. This is what I've been trying to tell you for months. You and me, we should just like start, uh,

George formatting some bison before every podcast in these like enclosed spaces. I know you should do it in the courtyard button. If you did it in the courtyard, the other Spotify employees would be like, oh my God, this is like a special influencer event. Yeah, I know. I do got to get more protein in my diet. Roadhouse was a lot of protein.

You were a lot of protein on this pod. Thanks, man. Thanks for your efforts. I really appreciate it. You always come to play. Okay, let's go to my conversation now with Michael Mohan is here. Michael, how are you? I'm living the dream. You must be because you are the director of a new film starring a rising movie star, Sidney Sweeney, but someone you've worked with many times in the past. I'm so excited to talk

to you about what you're doing as a filmmaker, but I wanted to ask you to start. What is the movie that you saw that inspired you to want to become a filmmaker that made you start thinking, like, should I make movies? Who makes movies? It was Back to the Future. I was five years old. It's one of my earliest memories. We went with my neighbor and her son to the Triborough Cinema in North Attleboro, Massachusetts. It was rainy and it was just the coolest thing I'd ever witnessed. And so on the way home, I was like, I just knew I needed to be a part of it. And so from then, I was the kid that cut out all the advertisements from the paper and post pasted them on my wall and things like that. And yeah, so ever since I was five, honestly. How does a kid from Massachusetts then actually

go about making the step of trying to become a director? Because everyone knows this is an incredibly difficult business to break into. You're having like a great moment right now, but it's been a long time in the making too. So walk me through, did you go to film school? Yeah. So I had a very traditional path. I moved to Orange County first and went to film school at a place called Chapman. And then while I was there, I just needed to find a connection. I needed to find a way to get an internship just to get any job so that when I graduated, I wouldn't have to move back to Massachusetts. And so they would do test screenings of films down there sometimes. And on campus, they were handing out flyers and they were like, come see the new, the new movie super troopers,

which nobody had ever heard of. Right. But I looked it up and I was like, Oh, this is, this played at Sundance. This was Fox searchlight. This is like, these are the kinds of movies. That's, that's what I want to be involved in is that side of things. And so I got to the test screening early. I was like looking for an executive to like talk, you know, so I could talk my way into an internship. I didn't see anybody there, but on my way out of the theater, they were handing out flyers that said, email your thoughts and comments to Jennifer. Oh, I don't want to say her actual email here. There was an email address, um, uh, and for someone named Jennifer. And, uh, that night I basically, I went back to my apartment and I was like, I basically, I wrote the most precocious email of my entire life.

It was super long. It was basically like, here's what you need to change. Here's what you need to do. Think about releasing it here. Watch out for Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back because that's going to take up the oxygen. And at the bottom, I was like, and by the way, I'm a film student. I snuck into the screening and it's in your best interest to contact me tomorrow and offer me an internship. And so I pressed send, went to class at like eight in the morning. I

was like bleary eyed. I got back to my apartment and my roommates were like, what the fuck did you do last night? What happened? And I'm like, why, what are you talking about? They're like, so the marketing department of Fox has called you the creative advertising department, the development department. How did this happen? How is 20th Century Fox calling our apartment? And so, because this was before I had a cell phone. Turns out that Jennifer sent my email to Peter Rice and Peter Rice sent the email to the entire company and said, get this kid an internship.

And so I walked into Fox and just basically was able to work wherever, you know, I had my pick of whatever internship I wanted. And so they had started making short films with new directors as a program called Search Lab that's now defunct. And I was there for about four years. And then from that was able to transition into like when they decided to dissolve that program, it happened to coincide with when the coordinator of the Sundance feature film program left. And so I was able to segue and like my next day job was working for Michelle Satter for the Sundance writing and directing labs, which is incredible job, you know. That's an amazing origin story. Oh yeah. I mean, especially Peter Rice, maybe wasn't Peter Rice then, but went on to become like maybe one of the most hallowed executives in Hollywood for a long, long time. So, yeah. I mean, especially Peter Rice maybe wasn't Peter Rice then, but went on to become like

maybe one of the most hallowed executives in Hollywood for a long, long time. Okay, so just let's go back one step. Yeah, yeah, sorry. So you are the kind of kid, college student, who is savvy enough to understand both the creative and marketing aspect of the business. So when you were a teenager, were you like a voracious consumer of magazines? And like, how did you figure out the business as well as the art form? I don't think I've figured out the business. I think I'm still figuring that out now. You know,

I think it was just, I was hypothesizing based on what I read in premier magazine and ain't a cool news, you know, like, like, you know, so I, I didn't, yeah, I didn't know what I was talking about. But you were just consuming everything basically. Yeah. I mean, for me, it was like, it was like, you know, I grew up on 80s blockbusters and then in the 90s was when i would um i would set the vcr to like uh slp mode and tape bravo from like midnight until six in the morning because bravo would play like they played like i had like clint eastwood's breezy yeah i remember this yeah yeah this is well before the Real Housewives days. Exactly.

And it was that moment where, because it's hard growing up in a cultural desert thinking that you actually have a chance at making movies. Yes. But when I saw Slacker off of a badly taped version off of Bravo, that really made an impact because I was like, oh, this was made by a human,

like a person made this. This wasn't some machine that made it that is impenetrable. And so I sort of always had that spirit of, I don't know, I just, I loved independent, I loved the American independent films of the 90s when I, you know, and that was sort of what I was going for in the earlier parts of my career was I wanted to be a part of that because I loved those movies. They were very heartfelt, but they also felt achievable. It's interesting because if you look at the films in the show that you have made, they're kind of a fusion of these two ideas that you're talking about. This kind of like 80s genre-oriented, crowd-pleasing, blockbuster-y kind of thing, plus a kind of sincere, small, independent, straightforward, 90s independent movement.

Was that like a conscious goal? You were like, in my career, I'm going to be pursuing these kind of things? Or is it way more haphazard? I mean, you're not in control of what opportunities you're presented. I mean, so while I was working at Fox and while I was working at Sundance, I was also making tons of short films. And I sort of got into this groove where if an actor who went to my, like, cause there was an acting school at Chapman as well. And so if an actor needed tape for their reel and came to me with even 50 bucks, I would write and

shoot and edit and direct some, like just some sort of three minute short film or three minute piece for their reel. And it was great because it just, you know, I just made tons of shit that was, you know, a varying quality for sure. Yeah. But you got so comfortable with actors, I imagine. Yeah. And I'd sort of, you know, and it's great. Cause like, and it's something I still use to this day. It's just like, you learn that every actor has a different process and the best directors don't impose their process. They learn what an actor needs and then you give them what they need, you know. But yeah, that sort of led me to make, so a lot of people don't know. Like I made a, my first feature film was actually a $21,000 black and white, you know, no budget. It was during the age of mumblecore. This is one too many

mornings. Exactly. Oh, so you're from, okay. So yeah. So Elijah, uh, Christian, you know, who was my roommate in college, you know, we sort of made that movie over the course of two years. And, um, and so that was sort of, it wasn't some grand design. It was like, I can make, this is how I can make a movie. I don't know how to raise money for a movie. I know I can get $21,000. And so that's what I'll do. And I'll just do that. Were you working at Sundance while you were making that movie? Part of the time. And then I had to leave Sundance in order to submit it to the festival. And I knew that was a pretty big risk because so many people work at Sundance, then they'd submit

their work and they don't get in. I happened to be, it happened to coincide with the, uh, they had just started the next section at Sundance the year that we, we played there. And, um, and yeah, and, and I went to Sundance and I thought my life was going to change and it, you know, it, it, it, I had made a movie and that was cool, but you know, I came back to LA and had to like work and figure out my life. Tell me, I mean, I'm always interested in that sort of a thing because like you look at someone's filmography and you think you understand their life, but you never really understand like what people are doing when they're trying to make the thing

that they care about. No, totally. And I also think like people like to romanticize like filmmakers who knock it out of the park the first time and then they get to like, like the bottle rocket to Rushmore to Royal Tenenbaums Pipeline

where mine is like, the way I describe it, it's like a family circus cartoon where like you have to go through the neighbor's backyard in order to get back to the front door. So my career doesn't even make sense to me. I think it would be, I think you're actually probably better at telling me how my career makes sense, you know, because you do that for other filmmakers. Well, I mean, I can just tell you like what I observed because I was, as I was getting ready to talk to you, I just completely forgotten that I'd seen Save the Date and really liked Save the Date.

But I mean, I saw it over 10 years ago, right? So, but in my head, I'd be like, okay, that was like a cool indie with young actors that I really like. And it's like a riff on a romantic kind of emotional drama. But then I'm sure I was like, well, I'll never, did that guy ever do anything ever again?

I don't know. You went off and made a TV show. I never saw that TV show. And then it took a long time before you made a streaming movie that came out during the pandemic, which is probably not exactly what you were hoping was going to happen. But nevertheless, like it does feel like you've gotten here to this moment with this moot with Immaculate. And I'm like, maybe this is how it's supposed to work out.

Maybe you probably had to hustle your ass off for 20 years, but you're in a good place. Yeah. No, I'm in a great place. And I think also like, it's, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know why things happen the way they happened. I didn't walk out of Sundance and Marvel didn't knock on my door and offer me some giant blockbuster like they did for everybody else. Is that something you would have wanted if that were presented to you? Yes. Yes. I wanted to make a living. That's all I cared about. Save the date was half a million dollars, you know? And so when that didn't sell out of Sundance, I came back, I was depressed. Like, cause you know, it was, I had been to Sundance literally three years in a row, first with One Too Many Mornings, then with a short film called Ex-Sex, then with Save the Date. And then literally like weeks later,

it was crickets. And so I was just like hustling and, you know, trying to get whatever work I could to get by. Did it materially change the kind of work that you wanted to do? Were you like, okay, actually I should be trying to make stuff like this or this, maybe this mode of storytelling doesn't make as much sense in this era of movies. Like how much were you strategic in this way too? So like Save the Date is exactly, that was the nineties American independent, like, um, Nicole Holoff centers walking and talking was my primary influence on that film. And since then, basically what happened was I realized there's something not very challenging about those kinds of films. Because as a director, you can put your stamp on it and all of that stuff. But like, once you start airing into like, I just found it fell in love with the filmmaking techniques of genre and wanting to try to keep the core of having,

you know, good performances and compelling performances and and making things feel grounded, but then adding that layer of, of genre over top. And so in 2015, that's when I made another short film, the short film called Pink Grapefruit. And that's the thing that actually launched me. That played Sundance, then we won South By, and then I was able to actually support myself off of filmmaking. But yeah, it took that long. Did you ever think about quitting? Oh, I still. Yeah, I still think about quitting all the time. Are you kidding me? Yeah. What kept you pushing through? I don't have any other skills. I don't know anything else to do. I think the main thing was I was very lucky. I lived in a

very cheap apartment. So my wife and I, we, um, we lived in a, a studio apartment in Westwood that weirdly enough, um, in the seventies was where, uh, Robert town lived in, in our apartment. So like part of Chinatown was written in my old apartment. Okay. And it was 750 bucks a month that I split with my wife. So I was able to get by just because. I would imagine that's what Robert Towne was paying in 1975, right? Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. But it was, yeah. So I just didn't need a whole lot to get by. And I just kept, I don't know, I just didn't need a whole lot to get by. And I just kept going. So when you made this decision to start making genre movies, was erotic thriller the first thing that you wanted to do? Yeah. Yeah.

So basically, Pink Grapefruit was the first sort of dipping my toe in genre. And then that's when I sort of fell in love with erotic thrillers. And I watched all of them. And basically, you could just listen to your podcast about erotic thrillers. Cause I agree with every single thing that you said. Why don't they continue to exist? And I think you might've helped kick off a little mini Renaissance. I think it, I think there's some, something is happening. Is it? Well, I think that there's a, an increasing sexuality in movies that it seems like maybe young, some young people don't like,

but also there's maybe some stars are getting their head around it. I think, obviously, Euphoria and what Sidney has done in that show. I mean, Salt Burn. There's something to happen. It's not quite what we might love from 1994, but it's a little less noir-inflected and little more like manic and crazy but i don't know maybe maybe i'm wrong i don't know we'll see all i know is that it's it everyone says they want to make erotic thrillers i haven't found like like it's hard to get it actually like through the pipeline

if you want to make something of scope you know and so um so was it hard to get the voyeurs so the voyeurs was really so it so basically basically I wrote that prior to even making Everything Sucks and was just trying to get it made. And what was happening with that particular film is people would get to this very crucial moment in the middle of the film where the main character crosses the line. And because there hadn't been erotic thrillers since Unfaithful, when people read the script, they were like, oh, this is an unlikable character. Nobody will follow her here. Not knowing that that's the draw of the genre is to watch going into pitch meetings. We'd pitch the script or pitch the story. And then right at that, at that moment, once we get past that moment where, you know, we'd sort of get people on board and be like, yeah, now this is the moment that we've all been waiting for. She's going to do something bad. Right. At that point, I'd be, I'd be like, and that's, and so, uh, you'll have to know in order to know how the story ends, here's the script. And then we'd leave basically. And when it came to Amazon, um, and the script, and then we'd leave, basically.

And when it came to Amazon, and it worked. It worked. People were then hooked. At Amazon, they had just started this initiative that they've since, they're not doing anymore, where Nicole Kidman had lunch with Jen Salke and said, why aren't you making erotic thrillers? I came in the next day after she told her staff, why aren't we making erotic thrillers? And I was like, and then I came in, I was like, why aren't we making erotic thrillers? And I was like, and then I came in, I was like, why aren't you making erotic thrillers?

They were like, well, you know, how's this, you know? And then, and so it moved very quickly. Like basically they got the script and we were in production a few months later. Interesting. So just backtrack on that. I'm really intrigued by the idea of getting better and better at learning how to pitch because it's a big part of when you're making a film, especially when you need it to be financed the way that's maybe

a genre movie needs to be financed. So like, is that something you learned at 20th Century Fox? Is like, do you have friends who taught you how to like, how do you learn how to do that? I learned, I learned really after, after Pink Grapefruit, when I started working in television, you know, that you have to learn. And I also, I love, I think pitching is so much better than someone reading a script. Like it sucks to read a script. No one wants to do that.

And it's so, you have to, it's so much work to like try to see the potential behind it. I think it's such a flawed, I think it's such a flawed format in terms of communicating. And, and when you're in a room, you can actually like, they can see your enthusiasm and your excitement about this thing that you're doing and that's contagious. And, and, and also you can say things that, uh, that get that, I don't know, just give context to what's on the page. Whereas when people are reading a script, they're also answering their text messages. So you also just get people's undivided attention. Interesting.

So where did Immaculate come from? So Immaculate, this is the first thing I didn't write. It originated with a screenwriter named Andrew Lobel. He wrote it 18 years ago. It was going to be a studio movie and Sidney had auditioned for it like 10 years ago, basically. And the studio fell apart. So the movie fell apart. And so when he first started writing it, he was like, oh, I want to do like sort of a modernized Rosemary's Baby. And, um, and so his, you know, when he first started writing it, he was like, Oh, I want to do like sort of a modernized Rosemary's baby. And then, so when Sydney sent it to me finally, you know, years later, um, you know, it, it didn't have any of the none. It w it was about a high

school kid and the ending was a lot different. And so she was like, well, what do you think? And I was like, well, I think that there's something here. There's like the core, the core reveal that happens in the middle of the movie is so crazy. Uh, and I didn't see it coming. And, and so we were able to sort of, uh, take that script and then, you know, turn her into a nun. And I don't know, it was a, it was a real whirlwind. Like for them, it was a really long process for me. It was like, I read the script and three months later I was in Rome. Crazy. So had you been looking, well, one, were you like, I want to be a director for hire or I want to make a horror movie? Like, was any of that part of your thinking? Well, I think like one of the filmmakers I really admire is Curtis Hanson, you know, and he, and I feel like that sort of class of filmmaker has kind of gone away.

The genre hopper. Yeah. Artful craftsman. Yeah. Yeah. And you look at his movies and they're dark like hand that rocks the cradle has some incredible imagery in it and it's a really well directed film you know um and i don't know that i would follow you know i think i need to

find projects that are a little bit more personal to me than than well who knows who knows if the river wild was super personal yeah i was gonna say it's bedroom window is that like a super personal movie probably not probably not but but uh but i just love that idea of like building a career like he did um uh so you had already been thinking about that yeah yeah yeah i'd already totally been thinking about horror too just because the challenges felt really exciting to me making a horror movie is different from making the previous films that you made i'm sure the voyeurs taught you some things about the pace and storytelling convention involved in this. But was it challenging?

Did you know exactly what you wanted to do with it? Well, it was tricky because we were rewriting the script as we were going. So it was also just reacting to what we were seeing. Going to the location and going, okay. Because oftentimes, Elisha and I will go to a location and we'll just be like, what are the best shots in this location? And then you sort of work the story around the cinematography sometimes.

Or you go from the opposite side where you're like, okay, since it's Sydney, and since we know what she can do, how can we push things to the limit from a character perspective? And so with the horror part of it, that's just technique. To me, that's just building the vibe. For the horror part of it that's just technique you know to me that's just you know building the vibe you know for the jump scares it's like okay i i knew on this one

because i didn't have the same level of prep than what i was used to i was just gonna i was just like searching for like a base hit you know i wanted the jump scares to be good but they needed to be simple you know and so and so like on the next one i want to do something more complicated okay on this one it was more like okay well we're going for something a little bit more classic here they needed to be simple, you know? And so, like, on the next one, I want to do something more complicated. On this one, it was more like, okay, well, we're going for something a little bit more classic here, so let's just give the audience, like, you know, the meat and potatoes of it.

So one thing I really responded to that I liked that feels very purposeful is that because there's not this major over-reliance on the jump scares, that they don't have to be the only thing you talk about when you walk out, that the film lets itself have a little bit more fun, be a little bit more self-aware, be a little bit more like reverential to what it's seemingly inspired by. But I kind of wanted to hear you talk about that.

And if I'm right in locating that. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a there's a way to look at the film like it's kind of like, you know, how there's gateway horror for like kids to get into horror. I view this as a gateway from normal horror into the more gonzo stuff. Yes. So that when the movie starts, you feel like you're in... It's scary, obviously.

That opening sequence, I'm really proud of. But it feels like a normal horror movie. And then the jump scares are happening and they're normal jump scares. And we're not reinventing

the wheel at all, aside from me and Elijah like to shoot things as like pristinely and beautifully as we can. But then as it goes along, you're like, oh wait, this is uncomfortable.

And then, you know, obviously building to the ending. Yeah, it has like a veneer of classiness in an unsploitation movie, which is like a really fun idea. But that's a, that kind of like

exploitation history is long and vast and some of those movies are easy to find and some of them are not so easy to find. Like, but that's a, that kind of like exploitation history is long and vast. And some of those movies are easy to find and some of them are not so easy to find. Like, were you the kind of person who was like a major fan of those kinds of movies? No.

In fact, you know, in another world, if we had more prep time, I would have, I am the type of person who would have devoured all of them to then see how ours fit. But I didn't have the time to do that.

So really like the three key, none inspirations were, um, I mean, black narcissists, um, because of like just how opulent that, that is, um, uh, the devils just for like the punk spirit. And then it was, it was Sydney who actually showed me, um, mother Jonah, the angels, which is, um, a lot simpler. It's just very like the, the horror in that film. Like, it's just very, very simple, iconic images that we were trying to do

here too. So tell me about your partnership with her because obviously everybody's asking about it and I feel like in the aftermath of anyone but you, it's like,

could this timing have been any better? I know, I know. So you've known each other for a long time. You've been working together for almost 10 years? Since 2018, I guess.

Yeah. So how did you meet? You cast her in a show? Yeah, I cast her in Everything Sucks. And I mean, it's, it's one of those things where people are like, demystify it. And I'm like, I'm like, it's just easy. You know, it's just really easy to work with her. Um, you know, back when I cast her in Everything Sucks, she was 19 years old.

And, but she was like, she was like the kind of actor who, um, you know, she was the oldest member of the young cast. And so she was like sort of actor who, she was the oldest member of the young cast. And so she was sort of their camp counselor. On the weekends, she would organize field trips for everybody. On her days off, she would come to set and shadow the AC and ask him questions about lenses and sit with the sound mixer and be like, why are you using this mic instead of that mic? And, you know, on the days that she was there, everyone was just so excited that she was there because she had this deeper, she was, had this very natural, it wasn't performative. She had this deep appreciation for what everybody did and this deep curiosity. And that spirit has just grown and grown and grown, which makes my job easier because, you know, especially us, you know, we're, we're making these kind of bold, like, you know, uh, potentially

controversial movies. We'll, we'll see how the weekend plays out, you know, but, but, uh, but we're doing so in this way that feels, um, where the crew feels like, oh, this isn't, they have purpose here. They're not just trying to do something schlocky. Like they're really trying hard and, and her personality just like inspires everybody to do their best work. It seems like you have a really clear sense of her gifts. The two roles that you've cast her in are just really well suited to her. And what I really like about the movie is you can almost feel her playing with her persona with the part. It is super fun and funny. She knows what you're looking for and she's willing to give it to you in a way, which is like, that's a classic movie star move. You know, like great movie stars know how to do that and they know how to satisfy audiences.

Like, do you verbalize that conversation? No, no, we never talk about it. I mean, it's something that's in the back. I think it's both in the back of our minds, you know, like, oh, Sidney Sweeney as a nun. I mean, the part of the conversation that I verbalized was this. And I hope that if this ever comes in print, that they can hear my tone of voice when I say this and how playful it is. But when I got the script, she was a high school virgin. And that was the thing I told Cindy. I'm like, you can do anything. I think you can act your way. You can play any part. I don't think

the public will accept you as a high school virgin because we've all seen you have sex, you know, in movies. And so, that, changing her into a nun, that was,

there was, that was the only sort of thing in terms of playing with her persona. I also don't, though, like,

separate of that, that character is the most interesting character for this story to happen to. So, you know, it's not like,

it's definitely secondary to the other, you know, it's not like it's, it's definitely secondary to the other, other, you know, sort of agendas at play. Were you raised Catholic? Do you understand? Super Catholic. Okay. So like this feels close. You understand this world. It felt like you did the angst, the guilt, the weird, the just general pageantry and weirdness of this whole universe. Yeah. I was a big part of it. I was the leader of our youth group growing up. No kidding. Yeah, I know. Like, yeah, La Salette Shrine in Attleboro, Massachusetts.

Yeah, I was like, I was there for a period of my life. I was there every Friday night and Saturday night. And, you know, we would stand around in what we called a huggle, where like, you know, you had your, it's like a huddle, but it's a hug. And we'd sway to the music of Amy Grant while worshiping this candle that was on an old ashtray. But the candle represented the light of the Holy Spirit. It was like a canister that we covered in tinfoil. I mean, it sounds crazy. We would, on some weekends we would have retreats where people would bring heavy metal

records and CDs and we would burn them in effigy just in case they had satanic messages in them. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So I was deep. I was deep. And so- You come to this story honestly. Yeah. I do. Well, I also just think like, I didn't even realize it until like people are pointing it out now, like how authentic it feels. But also like, I just, even realize it until like people are pointing it out now, like how authentic it feels. But also like, I just,

again, it's just goes back to the character where it's like, okay, the movie is only 88 minutes. I don't have that much time to waste on like a deep backstory and understanding why she's so religious. There's like one little detail. And that detail is like a plant that then gets paid off later.

That's it. And so this is one of the best things about the movie though. It's a leanness and not, no, not over explanatory works so well. Yeah. There's it. And so... This is one of the best things about the movie, though. It's leanness and not over-explanatory. It works so well. Yeah, there's no boring parts, you know? That's it. Well put. There's no boring parts.

It's like all of your least favorite parts of horror movies, we just didn't shoot. We didn't have time to shoot them. Even if we wanted to shoot them, we didn't have time. Well, there's a lesson in that. But when she walks into the church for the first time and she's about to take her vows, you know, when the doors open, I think that there is just a sense of majesty to that. And that sense of

majesty is something that at one point in my life, I also felt. One thing that people are clearly responding to, and you don't need to spoil it, but I want to hear you talk about it, is just the ending is just great. Just fun. Thank you. Brilliant. Like we are locked in. Sydney is amazing in that scene. I know. Can you just talk about it in a way that maybe won't ruin the experience for people? So when I read the script for the first time, that was the biggest, outside of changing the character to be a nun, the ending was, you know, it was a studio movie. It was a very conservative ending. And I was like, we're making this independently.

I've got Sydney who like wants to fucking go for it. Like that's where it was her only thing to me. She was like, it needs to be scary, and I want to be covered in blood. And I was like, I think we can go even further here. And so, yeah. So I pitched her this ending. Immediately, I had it in my mind of what it needed to be.

And to her credit, she was like yeah that's that's fucking awesome let's do that to the other producers jonathan devino and david bernad they also were like yep we're gonna do that to my financiers credits uh credit uh black bear they've been so supportive they were great they were like we support you please shoot an alt if it doesn't work and me you know again i you, I don't want to be a dickhead. I'm going to do that. So I can tell you the story on the day. So on the day, we got to the location.

It was sort of towards the end of our shoot. And we sort of figured out, okay, this is going to be this. We sort of knew where the spot was going to be. We figured out how the distance she needed to walk to eventually pick up the implement of destruction. And we just sort of did a camera blocking and then i looked at sid and i was like you know sid is not someone who wants to like over talk things and so i was just like should we just should we just let it rip she's like yeah and so we did the first take and um that's that's what's in the movie is take one you know it feels like it's happening which is part of

and yet is you're also like outside of it and you're like this is so fun like when i was watching i was like this is so fun that they're doing this that they're great and you can hear in your mind like i think they're gonna i think this is what i think they're gonna do and they did it so kudos thank you awesome job so question about this i mean i i within a week's time, saw the first Omen, your film, and Late Night with the Devil. And I was like, what is going on here? Like, why is this kind of subgenre of horror back or on people's mind or this, you know, because I would say we're not, you know, in the 70s when these films were really thriving, it was a time of kind of emotional angst.

It felt like a lot of people were breaking with the church. There was some confusion about spirituality in our culture. Now, people are kind of distant from spirituality at large. You know, fewer people than ever are members of the church. And yet the movies are working.

So what do you attribute that to? Well, I think also, what is it? Is it like 13% of atheists and agnostics pray once a week? So I think that the relationship that people have with their religion is becoming even more nuanced. And I look at sort of what's happening in Ireland right now where they just passed gay marriage, even though like 69% of them are Catholic. And the church said, vote against this, please. And people were like, you know what?

Even though we're super devout, you're kind of wrong about this one. And so I think that that sort of shift, I think there are other things that the Catholic church believes in that people are finally shifting their beliefs on. And so for us, we were just hoping that the movie would be, first and foremost, that it's a rollercoaster ride and people can just go and have a good time. But that, you know, when it's over, if they choose, they can maybe find some deeper meaning in it. So you're sticking with genre now? Like, what's your plan? Yeah, 100%. Do you know what you're doing next?

I don't. I mean, it's been interesting hearing because like this movie came for me. It came together so quickly and I just had to operate off of instinct. You know, I didn't get to like i didn't have to typically it's like you plan the movie way out in advance you go to bed and you think about it and you're you can play it in your mind and this one i couldn't um and so i'm now opening myself up a little bit more to working in that way again um i'm also learning a lot about like just i mean i know i'm not supposed to read reviews but i do and i'm learning a lot about what people are responding to in the work that i didn't know they were going to respond to

interesting and i'm learning example of that well just the ending like i i didn't know that people were going to like really embrace it the way they are and you know that that's one of the things is like even if you don't even if you're not a big horror person i think like i i hope people come see it because her performance is really something else. And, and it's rare for a film to hit multiplexes that have this kind of darkness, this fun darkness, I guess.

And I think I just want to continue to, I think this whole, this whole journey has been a process for me to like let go of my insecurities about myself, because I think that maybe has been holding me back for the majority of my career. And now I can just be like, oh, you know what? I just need to like be myself here and not question it and just like make the next thing that much more pure, if that makes sense. It does. That's inspiring. I mean, you stuck with it. You didn't quit. I mean, I'm stupid enough to do that. So do you want something bigger?

Of course. Yeah, of course. like how can you have the mcu brain i want to get that phone call but also still make a personal good cool yeah i mean i think it's i think it's i think i can't be in control of what opportunities are presented to me i think priority number one is to is to figure out what the next what the next thing is that is purely me but also keep myself open to the idea that a script could come my way, especially because I didn't write this one, but I found my way into it in a way that's very deep. And in some ways it might actually end up being my most personal film. So this is the brilliance of genre. This is why I advocate so hard for it. People always say that they're like, well, I finished my movie and I was like, oh, this is actually the movie that's about me.

I also love that it's harder. It's so much harder to direct a horror movie. And now that I've like, now that I've done like the simple, like Fisher Price, you know, my first horror movie, like I'm ready to do something a little bit more, even more sophisticated, you know.

I look forward to that. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? I've got one for you, man. Testament. Have you ever seen Testament? Lynn Lipman. This is a British film about the end of the world. It's not British. you, man. Testament. Have you ever seen Testament? Lynn Littman.

This is a British film about the end of the world. It's not British. It's American. Okay. Was it a TV movie or was it released in theaters? So it was both. Both. It was, so it was, it had the same path as Duel.

Okay. And so it was made for like American Playhouse. Paramount saw it and they were like, damn, this is really something. Okay. I haven't seen this. They gave it a theatrical release. You'll have to, if you want, you can stream it, I think on the Criter really something. Okay. I haven't seen this. They gave it a theatrical release. You'll have to, if you want, you can stream it,

I think on the Criterion channel. Okay. But the Blu-ray, you'll need to import it from Australia. It's worth doing. The Blu-ray is beautiful. Okay. And let's just say it is,

it is the darkest movie I have ever seen. It is rated PG. And you cannot believe it when you're watching it, but it's a PG movie that is the scariest movie I've ever seen. I love to get a recommendation for something I've never seen. So thank you. Michael Mohan, congratulations, man. Thank you for coming on the show. It's a huge pleasure to be here. Thanks to Michael Mohan.

Thanks to CR. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. We will be back indeed next week at long last with the Babylon Watch Along. The hive stands strong. We will see you then.