The Big Picture - ‘Saltburn’: Iconic or Disastrous? Plus: Alexander Payne!

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

Sean and Amanda briefly share thoughts on Disney’s ‘Wish’ (1:00), before digging deep into Emerald Fennell’s ‘Saltburn,’ including its cast, its spotty plot, its relation to Fennell’s first feature, and more (5:00). Then, they share their top five “big swing” movies (1:07:00). Finally, Sean is joined by ‘Holdovers’ director Alexander Payne to discuss reuniting with Paul Giamatti, casting an actor in their first role, the filmmaking style of the movie, and more (1:20:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Alexander Payne Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Football is officially back and we've got you covered right here on the Ringer NFL feed. I'm Shiel Kapadia and every Tuesday and Friday, Ben Solak and I will be bringing you extra point taken. Nora Princiati here to tell you that Stephen Ruiz and I will be coming to you every Monday and Thursday. Our Monday show will recap everything from Sunday's games. Thursday's show will encompass any news during the week with an eye towards the next slate of games.

Subscribe to the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to follow the Ringer NFL on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter at Ringer NFL. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about salt burn. Later in this episode, I'll be talking with Alexander Payne, the director of Election Sideways and his latest film, The Holdovers. Payne is one of the best directors around.

I hope you'll stick around for our conversation. We're going to talk about Saltburn, but before we do that, Amanda, I wanted to talk to you just a little bit about the new Disney film, Wish. Great. You haven't seen this film. I did see this film. This is the first movie that I have seen in a movie theater with my daughter. Yeah.

And we had a very, very special experience. We went to a preview screening. Disney does this wonderful thing where they have morning screenings for their films before they come out. In Los Angeles, they hold them at the El Capitan. Right. Which is a theater that they own on Hollywood Boulevard. Legendary movie theater. There's an organist.

Yes. Or as Alice said, they play piano. They play piano. Yeah. Alice had a magical time. She sat still for the entire movie. She would like to watch the Wish trailer every single day now. Really? We listen to the music in the car. She has been fully Disney-pilled, the way that many kids are over the years, the way that I was as a kid. And it was fascinating to watch her have that experience. Very touching for me, obviously, as somebody who worships the moviegoing experience. Just the fact that she liked it and wanted to do it again was really powerful. Now, I saw the movie before the reviews really came out

and before the reception. The movie was released over this Thanksgiving holiday and bombed. No bueno. Yeah. And didn't get good reviews. And there was a bit of an old-fashioned existential crisis at the Mouse House around their releases this year. And it's interesting because I don't care. Because I had this amazing experience with this movie, which I thought was pretty good. I didn't think it was great. It's kind of a... What's it about? It's about a young girl who experiences longing and then transforms her kingdom. So it's a Disneyuely what's it about it's a it's about a young girl who um experiences longing

and then transforms her kingdom so it's a Disney princess movie so it is a princess she's not a princess per se she's a

she's a civilian in this in this magical kingdom that is run by an evil sorcerer voiced I thought terrifically by Chris Pine does she

Chris Pine always shows up yeah he does does she free the king at the end of the kingdom? In a matter of speaking. Yeah, it's not a monarchy anymore. She frees their wishes

and their wishes, which he holds tightly. He gains their wishes from them and holds them so that he kind of controls their ambition, their ability to think bigger. Okay.

I see some metaphor in there. Yeah. I actually think the idea of the movie is very good. I think the movie came under fire somewhat because it is the 100-year anniversary of Disney this year. And so the film itself... Yeah, I've seen one or two commercials about it. Yes, it is like a very self-conscious movie that has like some Easter eggs to the Disney history,

which I think it's rubbing people the wrong way as we wend our way through the meta experience of moviegoing. I thought the movie, again, was okay. Definitely not awful. And I find some of the reviews, and this is relevant to this conversation we'll have about Saltburn as well. The idea of what is the worst movie ever made or what is despicable. We're in a very, and we of course are victim of this too. We run hot and cold. There's very little nuance. There's very little middle. Yeah. And it's just also, it's the end of the year the holiday season people are spending time on their phones instead of with the people that you traditionally spend time with around the holidays and and this always happens people are popping off yes there's a lot

a lot of tweets yeah you know a lot of a lot of conjecture in the air a lot of people tweeting in the movie i could see actually at the screening of Wish. Nevertheless, you had a nice time. It was a turning point, I think, in some ways. For you? Yeah, for me. So disaster and doom, Sean, has left the station. I wouldn't say that. Okay. But only as long as the films meet your needs, which in this case was having a nice Saturday morning with Alice. That's right. And of course, that's how most people are. Let me ask you something. That's a normal human experience. We were doing our holiday catch up and you mentioned that due to various viruses,

some of your plans were canceled. And so you had like a free Saturday. Did it occur to you to just like take Alice to the movies? Are you there yet? Yeah, but that has to happen at the right time of day. Yeah, there are not enough 10 a.m. movies. Yeah, part of the reason why that experience with Wish was so wonderful was because it was at 10 a.m. Yeah. And 10 a.m. is a great time to go. When things were starting to spiral on that one day when our plans were canceled, it was roughly 3.30 p.m. There are movies at 3.30 p.m.

I'm not sure that I could get her up for that. I know. So nevertheless, I think what I'm saying is, my existential crises are probably not at bay forever. But with a movie like this, which I would probably happily get on a pod and be like, what a despicable act by Disney to release a film that is only mediocre. Bob Iger has lost control.

Like I could care less about that because that movie now for me that will live on in our family's history as a beautiful experience. That's nice. And maybe she'll punt on the movie. And in like 40 years Alice will be like my first movie was Wish. Yes and she'll be like why did I like this dress. I don't know why I ascribed that voice to Alice. That is not quite how she talks. No. But it's not that far either. I sit on mommy's lap. I mean, her review of it the next day, because I saw you and your wife and Alice the next day,

and she like had memories. You know, the memories were sitting on mom's lap and the piano. But I feel like that is extraordinary for, you know, normally she just, her recaps aren't great. No. Well, she's not quite there yet. She's not ready to pod. That's why I'm speaking for her today.

She did. She was quite fond of the baby. I can't tell if it's a goat or a sheep that is voiced by Alan Tudyk named Valentino. Okay. And she loves to say Valentino. Well, that's very special for all of us. Maybe she can perform that for you next time you see her uh i apologize for the digression about my child but it was relevant i think because it's kind of yeah chilled me out in the way that i think about a lot of these things and the movie that we're going to spend most of

our time talking about today is a is a hotly contested yeah work of art. Oh, do people like it? People are into it? I'm kidding. Well, I do think that there are some people who like Saltburn quite a bit. I do think it has a vocal, but seemingly increasingly smaller fandom than they were hoping. So I've got a kid anecdote that's also a segue. Okay. Which is, I traveled this holiday season and was lucky to meet several big picture listeners along the way.

Thank you to the city of Philadelphia. But that involved to Philadelphia and back involved plane time with an almost two-year-old. So there was a lot of screen time. So while my son insisted on watching YouTube clips on my phone, I had to hold the phone up for him because, you know, he wouldn't let it be propped up. He just kept screwing it up. So I'm sitting there holding YouTube clips in my hand while watching Promising Young Woman on my iPad. And I was just like at some point trying to shield the iPad from him. I was like, this feel, even though he has no idea, he had headphones on.

He couldn't care less about anything. What did you think about the ending of Promising Young Woman? Did you think it worked? Yeah. Knox is an edgelord in training. So I think he was really on board for it. Salt Burn, of course,

is the follow-up film to Promising Young Woman from Emerald Fennell, the much acclaimed, rising writer-director. Oscar-winningacclaimed, rising writer-director. Oscar-winning. Oscar-winning writer-director. This movie is, I think, a continuation of some thematic and stylistic concepts that we saw in Promising Young Woman.

That was a smaller, much more independent-feeling character study. This movie is significantly more grand in its execution. It is a period piece set in roughly 2006 and its influences are on its sleeve.

Its influences, interestingly for you and I, are a lot of things that we really like quite a bit. Particularly the talented Mr. Ripley and the fiction of

Patricia Highsmith. There are a number of other stories Brideshead revisited as a significant influence. It's a major and equal, even though it doesn't loom as large, I think, in our pop cultural consciousness right now. I would say 50-50.

It does feel like the two things have been smashed together. Between Ripley and Brideshead. You're a big Brideshead fan. We're both big Ripley fans. The film is shot and designed beautifully, I think. Lenaena sangren who shot babylon among many other great movies shot the movie it stars a very exciting young cast your boy jacob alorty stars as the boy of the manor and in pursuit of this boy is barry kyogan an actor who we've

praised many times on the show rosamund pike also a favorite of this show richard e grant a favorite of every living human allison oliver someone i'd never seen before but who i really took to in this praised many times on the show. Rosamund Pike, also a favorite of this show. Richard E. Grant, a favorite of Every Living Human. Alison Oliver, someone I'd never seen before, but who I really took to in this movie. Carey Mulligan, someone I always enjoy. And this movie, I think, profoundly does not work. And I am not mad about it. Yeah.

But I do find it to be fascinating because a lot of people are mad about it. Yeah. And so let's talk through it. This will ultimately be a spoiler-filled episode, but we can hold off on the bulk of the spoilers as we go along and talk about the film. Generally speaking, what were your feelings about Saltburn? On the way here, I was catching up on my favorite podcast, The Watch,

and I was catching up on the podcast that you recorded with Chris Ryan while I sat next door waiting. Because Chris hadn't watched The Crown yet, and thus I was not invited on the watch. And you were talking about, what's it, Monarch? Monarch, yes. Legacy of Monsters. And you said something very self-aware and incisive, which was that you as a 41-year-old man just like it when Godzilla stomps on people or things, really things, cities, and you like it when monsters punch each other. So here is the thing.

I really like it when Hawkeyes wear sweaters. I just, it's well-trod territory. They do it a lot. Every time it works on me, I say, yes, that's a Hawkeye in in a sweater and I'm enjoying my time. And so while I think Saltburn is possibly one of the emptiest movies that I've seen in some time, like to call it dumb is to not really wrap your arms around like the true absence of ideas and I also had a very fun time like I just I just did I think a lot of there are there's there are a lot of people who feel the same way that you do I I wouldn't say that I was frustrated or angry

watching the movie I was I was frustrated sometimes okay by some of the like the the actual like filmmaking choices. Okay. Well, we can talk through that. As well as the total lack of thought. I found it very watchable, but ultimately, ultimately frustrating. Sort of in the aftermath of trying to understand. Because we live in this interesting time where class struggle is now not just on the fringes of our cinematic experience. It is, in some ways, one of the primary focuses of adult movies.

Last year, we had this wave of movies. We had Triangle of Sadness. We had The Menu. And we had Glass Onion, the second Knives Out movie. All of which were very focused on a kind of eat the rich concept. You know, Parasite, of course, that is a core theme in the film. And that movie won Best Picture. So we live in a time where looking at the haves

from the perspective of the have-nots and trying to understand how we got to this place where there's this enormous wealth gap in our society, where this kind of desperate pursuit of kind of a glamorous lifestyle with social media, Instagram, seeing what other people have and wanting those things desperately. It feels very contemporary. It's probably the most contemporary mode of storytelling that movies have right now. Because most of what is popular is kind of Fantasyland stuff. Superheroes, dinosaurs, shit like that.

So I get why this is happening. Salt Burn is the first movie in some time I've seen either try to subvert our expectations of a movie like this or completely misunderstand them. And so the movie is told in theory from the perspective of Barry Keoghan's character. He plays a student at Oxford named Oliver Quick who is presented to us as a kind of downtrodden, lonely, almost anti-social young boy who doesn't quite know how to penetrate

the upper crust at Oxford. That's most clearly represented by Jacob Elordi's character. And he is the, I guess the, how would you describe Jacob Elordi's character? The object of desire. Yeah. Of everyone in the movie. And that is certainly Oliver Quick. And it's not just because he is the hot guy in the sweater but

he's wealthy he is if not aristocratic like he is he is quite literally to the manor born yes and and has kind of built in in every way that especially in England the class system is just like really codified he's at the top of it. He feels, I keep hearing the phrase post-posh in my head because there's a kind of blasé nature that he presents his own wealth with. Right, well, but I think that that is accurate to the time period and the wealthy people. Yeah, so this, Oliver sort of becomes interested in and then ultimately kind of infatuated with his friendship and maybe something more with Elordi's character, Felix Catton. And the first third of the movie is roughly about their time together at Oxford, I guess, in their first year.

Oliver is a scholarship student. He's presented as quite brilliant. He's read all 50 books on the summer reading list we learn in private study. Right. That's something that 50 books on the summer reading list we learn in private study. Right. That's something that not even his teacher has done. Is that brilliance or is that trying really hard? And even that is presented as like, you thought you were playing by one set of rules,

but it's actually, there's another set of rules here. There's a streak of sociopathy, I think, in the character. And we're meant to understand that right away. But also just that he doesn't know that the way that things actually operate at the upper, you know. Right. He's paired in those early sequences with Farley,

who's an American, who I believe is the cousin of Felix Katnett, Lordy's character. And he is, I would say, probably the most broadly written and worst character in the movie for me. And someone who is meant to show like a true contrast between the I don't give a fuck.

Everything is set up for me because I am related to an extraordinary class of person. Right. But he's also saddled with a good portion of the quote unquote queer politics in the movie. And then he is the only person of color in the family and at some point the film tries to get into the racial politics which it does not get there why wildly bungled in my opinion um and we can talk more about that as we get through the story but it becomes clear that um chance encounter felix is late for class his his, does he have a flat tire on his bike? Is that what happens?

I think so. And Oliver, lo and behold, has a bike that he can loan to Felix. And they form a bond over this bike loaning. They eventually get together in a pub. He sort of enters his circle of friends. All of his circle of friends are a bit suspicious of him as the scholarship boy who wears clothes from Oxfam. But he slowly but surely gets in there. And he starts

to tell the story of his life to Felix. And the story of his life is one of a sad boy whose father is gone, whose mother is an addict, who is desperately just trying to survive in this world and make friends and be successful and be bigger and better than what his parents were. And Felix takes a shine to him and he feels bad for him. And he invites him to spend the summer after that first year at his estate, Saltburn, where he will stay with his family and luxuriate by the pool and dance through the garden. And the movie makes a radical shift. And this is where I started to really deeply, deeply feel the 2006 of the movie makes a radical shift and this is where i started to really deeply deeply feel the 2006 of the movie so i want to use this as an entry point to say

like well that's when the mgmt hits that's right there are which i laughed there are i just i was like lol that is funny there are a lot of signposts for this time in the movie as i thought about why this movie was set in 2006 i had two thoughts one period piece for a filmmaker entering their late 30s early 40s pretty common this is something this is when you start really reflecting on where you came from emerald fennel is 38 years old yeah i mean they're the class of 2006 i believe and I was the class of 2006, and she's a contemporary. Yeah. A contemporary, yes. So looking back on that is interesting. There is a very specific style of 2006, the Juicy Couture, Von Dutch.

Sure. The kind of expensive but chintzy kind of glamour of that era. We had it in America. It certainly seems like they had it in England as well. I can't confirm that, but the movie, you know, in the opening sequence of the film, we see a young girl wearing juicy couture, sweatpants. The Paris Hilton of it all. Yes. Exactly.

And that, I think, is an interesting time period to examine because of what it says about our relationship to wealth and kind of like desiring products that did not exist two years ago but now have been elevated to this idea of like must have the idea of the must have is a really interesting concept for a sociopath like oliver and what does it mean to need something that it drives you to need something 2006 you were just getting out of school you were you graduated yeah you were what do you make of the decision to set this movie at this time what do you think it represents i i think it is pretty purely not autobiographical but you know of an experience and wanting to parody or examine or honestly whatever the intention is here is something that we will discuss pay tribute yeah i don't know about that um to set it where you know and to examine what you know. And I think the strongest parts of this movie come from Emerald Fennell's familiarity and parody of a world that she is at least, you know, that if she doesn't come from, you know, I don't think that she is to the manner born, but i think that she moves in these circles if i recall correctly

she um has a i believe that um andrew lloyd weber is like her godfather or a family friend i believe that's the case yeah so you know a different kind of of royalty there's been either there's been suggestions that she in fact is upper crust crust, which makes this a curious storytelling move on her part. You know, her last film was very much about sexual assault in our culture, the relationship between men and women, the kind of perversity of how these things are handled in the public eye or not handled.

And it was a little bit funny, but was mostly a kind of acidic, angry, cynical movie that had some style that I thought had a lot of storytelling flaws. I think this is basically the sequel to that. Yeah. Yes. As we go through Salt Burn, the movie kind of kicks into MTV montage style. And this is actually quite fun. We meet this very funny family that is absolutely loaded with brilliant character actors.

This is probably the best usage since Gone Girl of Rosamund Pike. Agree. She's hilarious. She gets all the best lines. It's also, I think, because we're going to, we already are ragging on this movie. But I do think Emerald Fennell like in or fennel like in detail and like moment to moment or joke to joke has some real talent and so all of rosamund pike's one-liners like are extremely funny the music cues and like the self-parody of the 2000 you know

mid mid-2000s mtv world which the other thing is like it's just 20 years, you know, mid-2000s MTV world, which the other thing is, like, it's just 20 years later, you know, this stuff comes back. Right, right. You know, did you know that low-rise jeans are coming back among the youth?

I didn't know that they had arrived the first time. Right. It's one of those, I'm just not clocking that kind of thing. I'm not talking, like, to you and your style. You mean, like, Britney Spears-style

low-rise jeans? Yes. Okay, great. Yeah. Should I start rocking them, do you think? No. Okay.

I don't. I think that that... Midriff? Exposed? If you want. Okay. You don't. I think that that... Midriff? Exposed? If you want. Okay. Would I be accepted and embraced in my community if I did that? Well, I think one of the ways in which we're trying to evolve from 20 years ago is that we're accepting everyone for what they want to wear.

Okay. We're trying. Okay. Anyway. Is it still okay to wear denim shirts? Because that's something that I'm going to do until I die. Yes, it is. You are wearing one right now.

I'm wearing denim shirts? Because that's something that I'm going to do until I die. Yes, it is. You are wearing one right now. I'm wearing denim shirts. I think I'm going to get Zach a denim shirt for Christmas because I stole one of his old ones from like 15 years ago. That's the nice thing, actually, about things coming back every 20 years. It's like maybe you still have stuff in the closet from the first time around. It doesn't seem like Felix has any hand-me-downs. You know, it doesn't seem like in this world. No, but they are all, if they're new, then they're like very studied new.

Like even within the movie, he's wearing some sort of, he's wearing polo that could be like classic 80s polo as well. I mean, it's immaculate. You would pay so much money on eBay for it now, you know? And that man can wear clothes. It's a strength of the movie that I think distracts from the flaws of the movie. Yeah. Through that sequence, we do hear the strains of MGMT. We do hear, you know, Arcade Fire. We hear Block Party at the University Party. We hear Girls Aloud.

We were there, you know? Yeah, sure. That was our time. Yeah. That's embarrassing. But there we were. I interviewed Block Party in 2005 as a young journalist. Great guys.

Super nice. A really silent alarm. Just incredible record. So, like, I get what she wants to do that she wants to use this this period in history prismatically she wants to say that this is the same as it was in 1850 it's the same as it was in 1960 when patricia highsmith was writing novels that there are there are people who have it and there are people who have it, and there are people who want it. Where she goes from there is the thing that is a struggle that I think we should start to work through.

You know, at Saltburn, it becomes clear that the Oliver character is not just a wallflower, not just a person who is dispossessed of social skill. He's actually much more insidious and we see him truly starting to lust after Felix. We see him start to seduce Venetia, who is Felix's sister, played by Alison Oliver, who I mentioned.

They eventually start to copulate. There's a period sex scene in this movie. Yeah, so that's two makes it two is almost a trend almost a trend here with fair play in this movie what do you think what's in the water so to speak with the period sex scenes is that because that that's like a genuinely trans aggressive sexual act that we can portray you think that's why i guess so though it's not transgressive in fair play it's actually used as you know a intimacy and it's like a little funny sense of humor and like a little sexy it's it's kind of the strongest connection that

those two characters have um i mean here it's just played for pure shock yeah i think that's actually the flaw is a movie that has a good sense of humor in its dialogue sequences. In any sequence that does not have dialogue, it is played so operatically. Right, which I think is, I mean, is purposeful. There are a lot of things. I mean, have we skipped past? When does the jizz in the bathtub scene happen? Later, earlier, or later?

It's roughly around the same time. There's the Being Rich montage where they strip down naked. It's revealed that Oliver is packing. Farley is shocked that he's well endowed. There's a lot of tuxedo tennis played. Drinking champagne. It just looks fun. Being 22 and beautiful and rich.

That just sounds, I couldn't tell you what it's like. At a beautiful house. Yeah. At an incredible manor. Shot on location. Having a butler. Yeah. Who's incredibly rude, but effective.

Well, that's just, that's a classic. Yeah. That's part of the homage to all the movies that came before. Absolutely. All those things are wonderful. Um, the bathtub happens shortly after the seduction of venetia where oliver after uh felix has masturbated in a bathtub oliver licks the bottom of the tub and sips the bath water and i saw the movie at telluride yeah and i will say there was some shock and awe at that sequence

i thought it was pretty funny i thought it was the best of the shock sequences. I liked the other one that other people seem to think is too much. My thing about this is that it's, you know, I thought a lot about Chris Ryan's proposed, was it top five jizz movies or jizz week? I think we should do jizz year. Okay, jizz year. Well, here's another entry. It was jizz hall of fame. Oh, jizz movies or jizz week i think we should do jizz year okay jizz year well here's

another entry yep um it was um it was jizz hall of fame oh jizz hall of fame yeah okay yeah just gotta get that right that's for the yeah so there's something about mary and then saltburn yeah okay and then it's just it's it's effective because it's so gross but there's something about the jizz plus the draining bath water that's like really upsetting for me. I thought it was a nice visualization of the like, I would drink her bath water thing. Yeah, sure. No, it was effective. I was just like, oh, that's really gross.

This is an important time now. Whose bath water would you drink? That's what I want to know. Jacob, would you drink Jacob Elordi's bath water? No. Are you sure? I'm sure. Have you considered this deeply?

Wow, you're almost blushing. I'm not really trying to drink bath water as an expression of my interest of any kind. I'm not so sure I believe you. I don't. That's gross. Okay. You sure? Listen, I'm not trying to listen. Whatever people want to do in a consenting relationship. You know what I'm saying trying to listen, whatever people want to do. Don't kink shame the bathwater increase. In a consenting relationship. You know what I'm saying? As long as you feel good about it, that's good for you. The bathwater is a little, is a little gross. I think it's because I just have to bathe another person in my two-year-old child so

often. I'm just like, there was a lot of- You have new perspective on this. Yeah, that's like, that's like a touchy issue okay in particular understood um this eventually leads to um a big party yeah uh a grand event just straight out of Downton Abbey honestly I thought of Downton Abbey many times watching this film um there's a karaoke party oh my god that's so good pretty good scene um one of the I guess one of the godfather figures and uncle, one of the Henrys, is seen wrapping along to Flow Ride is Low. Yes.

Which is the first of a couple of anachronisms in the movie, which I just frankly have a problem with. I know it seems silly, but here's my problem with it. You're making a period piece just like this lazy. Just lazy. Like to quote Sir Ridley Scott, get a life like honestly like get a fucking life because it's a made-up world it's not history so like why fuck with it like what so when was low release like a year later but it's like it's it's at a home karaoke party it's not like they're listening to the radio or something. It's like they had to get the song into the karaoke machine.

Like, come on. It's just silly. There's another one of these. They're watching Superbad at the home. Superbad was not released in 2006. They're watching Superbad on a TV in their house at Saltburn. Would they get a screener?

I don't think the movie's been shot yet. I mean, have you considered this? you're making a 30 million dollar movie just like google it i was happy to see you you know we had some time off i was ready to catch why is this entertaining to you this these are just facts it's just so spreadsheets baseball cards like yeah why not have them watch Inception? Maybe they should watch Spider-Man No Way Home. They would get a kick out of that too.

Because it didn't happen. Why make the particular choice of doing 2006 and getting it wrong? You sound like a person on a Star Wars board right now. You know what I'm saying? That may be true. You just do.

And I hear you. You make a big show of being an editor and getting things right and doing your homework. Emerald Fennell didn't do her homework. That's it. Period. Okay. Okay. I just, of all of the issues I have with this movie, of which there are many,

when or when Lo hit the airwaves and was available on home karaoke is not among them. I hear you, but it is indicative of a bigger issue with the movie which is that it is an unexamined piece of writing it is it is something that feels like it was written in a flurry and it doesn't really like it doesn't really feel like the writer had given thought and i have not i've read a bunch of interviews with her searching for this because as we've said the movie has come under some fire and this is one of those things where i'm like you can't put you can't have them watch super bad just have them watch four-year-old virgin that'd be fine so i am annoyed that you brought this up but also i'm glad that you brought

this up because i think i agree agree with you like strongly vociferously that this is a really unexamined movie like to the to the point that i don't even know what kind of movie she thinks she's making like i honestly don't understand what the idea of this movie is and i don't know whether it's because there isn't one or because there is some idea that she has that she either like can't get across and or is not an idea. So let's use that as a way. But before we get to that, I want to say that I and I and I've read the criticisms, including our pal Wesley Morris's review, which was just like transcendent. Nobody better in the business. It's just so good. And I do think that Emerald Fennell's facility with style is a little underappreciated.

I agree. And I think IDing the small factual inaccuracies and ascribing them to the larger failures of the movie misses like the fact that they are like funny and good like choices and of and and but they are part of a like of a world and a visual style and evocative world that she builds both in promising young woman which i can say now hated and this movie so i think that the film like deserves credit for that and I think that's part of the reason that it's so sticky pun not intended but also intended the stickiest movie of the year that would be put on the poster even I would be happy to be on the poster with that uh even as I think it's like a pretty like intellectually bankrupt movie.

Yes. That's all. There we go. And now let's talk about what the hell this movie is about because I don't know. Yeah. We're on the same page about this. I think that she's got good taste and has a real eye. And hiring someone like Lena Sandgren is an indication of like,

I know how I want to visualize and execute on a movie. And is observant. And so like the small details, the one liners, the clothes, I put a link in here to just, they're my favorite,

my favorite. The only watch Instagram I follow, Dime Piece. What's up? Co wrote a piece just about all the watches in this movie and what they can say.

You know, there like, there is a lot there if you're into that sort of thing, which I am in it. I would say. So that's good. I think it's, what does it support?

It's worthwhile praising those things. And then now we can kind of unpack the final third of the movie. If you have not seen this movie and you don't want to hear us talk through it, don't listen. It's expanding into movie theaters over this next couple of weeks. It's already in about roughly 1800 movie theaters. So you have a chance to see it in most places. I think right now from the big party chance to see it in most places, I think, right now.

From the big party where we see Farley and Oliver sing Pet Shop Boys Rent during karaoke, which is very indicative of where these two characters find themselves, kind of inside but outside

of this very glamorous world, Felix's character in the aftermath of this party makes a decision to surprise Oliver before his birthday, I guess on his birthday, to go see his mother after the story that Oliver is told about his downtrodden mother. And again, this sequence is expertly made. We are waiting and waiting and waiting to find out what's really going on with Oliver's mother. Why is he

uncomfortable on this car ride with Felix? What is the true nature of where this kid comes from? This kind of flannel-wearing dork who's trying to insinuate himself into this world. And we arrive at this house and he's just from a fairly normal middle-class, maybe even upper-middle-class family.

His father is not dead. He's alive. His mother is not a drug addict. She's seemingly a very lovely homemaker. They've spent a lot of time thinking and caring for their son who has siblings and um felix is stunned that this has all been a lie and that oliver is a charlatan and but he is stunned and so he plays it in true british upper class fashion by just being as polite as possible and going along with it. So you have this pretty awkward scene in the living room

where the parents are very solicitous, offering tea. Oliver's trying to get out of there. Felix is like, oh, please tell me more. Show me more childhood pictures, whatever. And this ultimately leads to Felix wanting to sever with Oliver. He tells him, we will have this big birthday party that my mother has planned for you at Saltburn but after the birthday

party we're done. You have to leave. I can't trust you. Everything was a lie. This is despicable. This leads to the birthday party which is another kind of extravagantly created world. It's a costume party. It feels like a real end of the century kind of moment. Very great

Gatsby. So it's a Midsummer Night's Dream is the theme. Yes. And Oliver is just wearing angel wings? Yes, angel wings. Yeah, or fairy wings. Fairy wings. As I guess the case may be. They reminded me a lot of Claire Danes in Romeo and Juliet.

Oh, probably intentional I'm sure it was his counterpart Oliver you know is wearing the the horns

and they are the angel and the devil of this story and that's a fascinating way to think about them because

as the party goes on Oliver makes an attempt to reconcile with Felix Felix is not having it cut to the next Felix. Felix is not having it. Cut to the next morning and Felix is dead. Very dramatically staged sequence of discovery. We hear Rosamund Pike scream from a thousand yards away.

His cousin and sister raced to his body. Which is in the middle of a maze. In the middle of a maze. And we don't quite understand what Oliver's role in this is, but we suspect because of, you know, earlier in the film, he seduced Farley and then he's had Farley kicked out of the house because he, you know, insinuates that he was going to sell a pot that was very important to Richard E. Grant's character. We see that there are a lot of machinations happening,

that Oliver is responsible for a lot of underhanded moves. In this case, he's crushed by Felix's death, but we also don't know what role he played. The family is destroyed. There's a significant grieving process. There's this interesting sequence where the whole family is sitting in a room with the curtains closed, and they're all shot in red,

and they're all talking about what they should do and as the police are arriving is that like when they're at dinner when they're at lunch yes they're at lunch yes and the rosamund pike character is like well did you have a good time at the party that part was pretty amazing most of the sequences where the family is talking are very effective i find almost everything else in the second half of the movie where they're not all together to be pretty strained melodramatic and tonally off

and oddly paced also very oddly paced because basically from this moment the scheme starts to be revealed and very quickly there's about 40 minutes

left in the movie and the ambiguity of the Oliver character is completely tossed aside and the ambiguity in many stripes. His sexuality, his relationship

to the Catton family and Saltburn. He becomes very quickly a kind of devious character. It's a real Kaiser Soze moment for this character. And we see him after Felix's funeral have this extremely strange emotional reaction where he removes his clothing in the rain and begins to fuck the grave site yeah so is this the one that worked for you yeah i thought it was kind of funny i was like okay so what were you thinking oliver was thinking in this sequence um i don't really i don't think he was thinking anything i was just like well this

is like a pretty memorable uh illustration of just really confusing uh sex longing and uh death i guess so is the idea here that desire, both physical and financial, will drive people crazy, has made people crazy, that there's like a rot between the classes and that it drives people who are not in the haves crazy? This is what I'm trying to understand she's trying to say. Because with Ripley, there's something about like the cynical nature of life that High Smith writes with High Smith a famously unhappy person a person who kind of like undid her own happiness routinely she would have affairs with women and then she would blow up those affairs seeking um conflict right and that Ripley is the kind of person who's constantly trying to get make himself better but then like kind of disrupts his own happiness in a way.

And it's a very internal kind of movie about how people can't allow themselves success or happiness despite their circumstances. Yeah. That's not the only way to read Ripley, but it is one of the key readings. I don't really understand this character. Like, is it just— No, I don't either and for me the problem though with it begins before the the grave fucking which i just thought was like put in there to be a meme you know yeah i totally agree and that but you know we need memes too i you know i don't have a problem with it

live without memes i i agree with you uh but even though this is a movie like pretty much constructed of memes but that's not inherently a bad thing to me. No. The character falls apart to me in that living room scene. Because that should be the big reveal, right? That should be like, well, something's off here and he's been lying and why would he be lying and what does he want? And the way that it's constructed is so flat and you don't learn anything about his motivation. You just kind of learn like what you have sort of been suspecting at this point.

Something's been off the whole time. Something's been off. And some of the reason you've been suspecting at this point that like something's going something's been off and and some of the reason you've been suspecting it is because this movie is so deeply and so knowingly referential to a talented mr ripley as well as well as bright's head that you're like okay well this person is not it's not all just going to, like, work out, right? But there was another side of my brain that was saying, she's not just going to rip off the talented Mr. Ripley, is she? Like, of course it's important. Like, if you love that movie, great.

Making an homage to one of the best movies of the 1990s, great. Yeah. No problem with that. But to just, like, one-to-one it, I'm not sure I totally understand what the intention of that is. And to do it with, frankly, less clear-headed, dramatic storytelling because of the dark confusion about the character and trying to understand what the character is, but also removing the mystery from the character in real time, too, because they've shown us his parents. They've shown us what a bookworm he is.

They've shown us, like, in Ripley, in Purple Noon, in Ripley's game. Ripley is a bit of a cipher to us. Like he's representative of something, but not a person in a way. He's a sociopathy. Oliver like is increasingly revealed to us, but his intention is muddy. And, you know, as the movie goes on here and a couple of critical things happen venetia um eventually there's a period of mourning and venetia sort of turns on oliver and it becomes clear that he's really more of a parasite on this family a very relevant movie to the final act um

and it's indicated that she commits suicide but maybe oliver is actually the one who slits her wrist we don't really know we're meant to suspect suspect. And then over time, Richard E. Grant's character, the Lord of the Manor, basically needs to get Oliver out of the house. His wife has become too dependent on him. There's something poisonous coming out of him inside the family. And so he leaves the house and he leaves this kind of grand castle and the whole staff wants to see him go and they're kind of waving at him goodbye. And there's this indication that he has like been a negative presence. But I'm not sure we ever really saw that in the movie. Like we never saw it.

We saw kind of like an innocent kid and then a kid who kind of mopes at a party and parties with these young people. But was he like malignant to people in the building this is where like the speeding up of the movie i'm like what is he i think the only explanation that we have for it or not explanation but the only thing the movie gives you is the carrie mulligan character um who's had pamela who is just like dressed like Vivian Westwood the whole time and

won't leave and there are like long jokes about her not leaving and then in a like

the bed sit one in particular is incredible where she's like oh I found a a house sit actually it's a bed sit and Rosamund Plank's like oh I love a bed sit

I love not having to take care of more than one room at a time, you know, when she lives in the fucking giant castle. It's a great bit.

And then, like, her eventual fate is revealed chillingly as they're all lounging by the poolside, like, full bride's head. You know,

that is like recreating it and they're just like... Preceded by the funniest joke in the movie to me, which is that Rosamund Pike's character knew Jarvis Cocker when they were in school together and everyone assumed that Common People was written about Rosamund Pike's character knew Jarvis Cocker when they were in school together.

Oh, yeah. And everyone assumed that Common People was written about Rosamund Pike's character and she couldn't believe it because she wasn't from Greece and, you know,

quoting the lyrics from the song. It's just brilliant. Like, again, like, if this was a sitcom about these characters, Rosamund Pike, you know, would have been perfect

and Emerald Fennell would have nailed it. Yeah. But... Well, but so I just... So that character is, I think think meant to establish that these people also like they aren't nice and they don't feel connections to people and everyone's a

bit of an imposition and they'll be generous to a point and then you need to move on there's another thing where um oliver learns from someone else someone says says something like, oh, you're like this year's so-and-so. Yes. Because Felix has a habit of bringing these people. So, you know, this is a family to whom lesser people are disposable. And so it sets that up a little bit. Which is your kind of typical cutting class satire.

Yeah. You would see that in Bunuel, you know what I mean? To me, that's not a... That's a pretty classical gesture. The issue is really the Oliver character and everything that happens. So after Venetia's suicide, after he's expelled from the house, we have

like a hard cut where 15 years go by, and then by quote-unquote chance encounter, Oliver meets up with Rosamund Pike again in a coffee shop and they're reunited and we learn that Richard E. Grant's character has died and then and now I guess there's a clear pathway for him to return to Saltburn and he does return to Saltburn and at this point I felt like there was like eight minutes in the movie left yeah where we had gotten like the big reveal and then all of a sudden you know this framing

device that the film opens with which is that we see barry kogan in quote unquote the present day and he's narrating to us what did felix mean to him what did salt burn right right right right and we don't quite know like is he in prison is he in his own home is he in salt burn where is he we don't quite know it quickly becomes revealed that he he in salt burn where is he we don't quite know it quickly becomes revealed that he's in salt burn and that he has somehow poisoned lady elspeth rosamund pike's character and that he's presiding over her as she's gotten very ill and he's about to kill her because she is going to bequeath salt burn to him and the entire family is dead and he starts to say things like you know know, like I always wanted salt burn.

I would always have salt burn. He kind of becomes a Bond villain. Right. At the end of the movie. And then she dies. We see flashbacks to all of these significant moments in the movie where, in fact, it seemed like he was being an innocent young boy. But, in fact, he was scheming the entire time and this was all part of his grand plan. And then she dies and

then the movie has this kind of like fantastical coda which is just an incredible song cue it's it's and it was so good uh very funny very literal but very funny murder on the dance floor in which barry keoghan traipses through salt burn completely nude and dances before finally arriving at this series of puppets, of marionettes that were featured in the home of the Catton family that we see early on when he first arrives at Saltburn and that he's in control. He's the puppeteer, right?

That's the conclusion of the movie. And then cut to the title sequence and the movie's over. And so I ask you, Oliver. I don't know. I don't know, man. Did he always intend to destroy the family from within

and was it a 17 year plan that he had hatched like he what happened in the 15 years didn't he become a doctor or a lawyer or something

did he I don't even I don't know he's like doing work or something but they revealed that he's typing on his computer and he's just typing gibberish he's like doing work or something but they revealed that he's typing on his computer and he's just typing gibberish he's just typing on a laptop right

because he's waiting for her he looks good he looks older he looks more mature more polished but like what i guess he reads in the new paper newspaper that the dad character has died and so he thinks maybe it's my opportunity again but previous to that was the plan to kind of knock these people off one by one? Like, was he going to get rid of James? Does James suspect that he was going to get rid of him? And furthermore, why? Yeah. Why does he want to knock these people off?

I know the character actually shows something, which I think is unusual in a movie like this, which is that he shows confusion. Did I love him? Was I in love with him? Did I hate him? This is something that Oliver's character says near the end of the movie,

where he's kind of working through his feelings and kind of lording it over Lady Elspeth. But we don't know. Right. And it's not like, oh, isn't that so funny?

He doesn't know whether he, like, loves or hates the rich. And wow, doesn't that just make us all crazy? Like, he fucking murders all these people. It's not... Right. It's not like cutting interesting satire. It's completely, it's not exploring the idea.

No, yeah. I don't know. I mean, I guess the most literal or like the simplest, the only explanation that I can like even begin to put together in a sentence for you is like, okay, well, desire drives people insane. And desire makes everyone a monster. Can I give you a related reading of that?

Yeah. I wrote down, is the message of this movie that wealth is a pointless maze and the wanting are even more dangerous than the people who have it. And if that is the case, if that is the re if that is what she is going for, so to speak, yeah. Um, that's a deeply ungenerous story to tell.

And maybe, maybe there's something kind of actually fascinating and edgelordy about that to be like, I'm from money and I'm writing a movie about how people who don't have money wanted and they might kill you for it is i i assume she did not intend that in a way if she was if she came out in interviews and was like it's fucking amazing having money and everybody who doesn't have it really wants it and they're nuts that would be kind of like fascinatingly paul schrader of her to do that she's not doing that no. She wants to be seen as a progressive artist. And also the people with money are portrayed as terrible people. Yeah, they're idiots and she's making fun of them.

And it probably hurts her case also that she's just like way more effective at making fun of them than at developing the psychology of someone who isn't them and someone on the outside. That's what it is. Yeah. She doesn't know who Oliver is. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. And so you can't make a movie if you outside. That's what it is. Yeah. She doesn't know who Oliver is. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. And so you can't make a movie if you don't know who that character is. Yeah.

I think also, you know, can we talk about Promising Young Woman now a little? Because I rewatched it. I did not revisit it. So you didn't like it? I didn't like it at the time. And I felt like because it was about sexual violence, like we had to be nice about it, you know? And because so many people were like, oh, it's so important to see like a woman

telling this like provocative story in this way and the patriarchy's bad and then she won an Oscar. And I was like, well, I guess I can't deny anyone else's experience. But I thought it sucked.

I saw it, remember at Sundance, I was like, well, we're never going to have to talk about that again. You did say that. Because I was just like, I don't get this.

And part of the reason. Let me just ask you this. Did you not find it watchable the way that Saltburn is watchable? Because I definitely did. No, it definitely is is watchable and again this the same things that i was saying just about like the um the jokes are funny you know and the jokes are very on the nose like the christopher mensplast character is just being like you really need to read the consider the lobster which is like funny you know i was also making that joke in 2006, but you know, that's fine. And Emerald Fennell herself shows up in like a YouTube makeup tutorial

about how to do blowjob lips, which is like very obvious, you know, but, but funny, um, or clever or whatever. And then Carey Mulligan, i think purposely doesn't look as like her beautiful self but she's styled in a certain way you know it's like all the visual cues are there it's very funny she i didn't remember that she gets not only is she given like a suitcase for her 30th birthday from her parents but it's an away suitcase which is just like you know a few years ahead of that curve. She's good about specifics. Said as someone who uses an away suitcase, it served me very well.

Right. But that's the thing. She has a knack for detail. Yeah, exactly. She has a pretty good sense of humor. Yes. She can recreate time and place. And can recreate like a mood of sorts.

Yeah. But I don't understand that character. And I'm told what her motivations are, which is that she lost a friend. And as a result of rape and the societal disbelief and doubt and the way we treat victims of sexual violence. And so she can can't handle it and so she gives up on her own dreams and is like on a revenge quest and i understand it as also a riposte to revenge thrillers um in in the same way that salt burn is like clearly a riposte but that's the thing is it a riposte to ripley is it like or or you? Is it like, or, you know, or like costume dramas. Right, right, okay. And, you know, you were like, this is like the new thing in, you know, class warfare is like the new thing in movies. Like, unless you watch costume dramas, you know, in which case, like, that's literally all they've been about for the last however many years they've been making them.

Great point. So, I understand all, like, the bullet points of what Promising Young Woman is supposed to be about. And it just doesn't make sense. It just like it does not add up. And I also was thinking about there's a scene in Promising Young Woman with Alfred Molina in the living room. He's a lawyer. And that is supposed to be like it's another scene in the living room that's supposed to like unlock the main character and someone else is like speaking some truths about,

and it's like not quite the reveal, but it's like the, you get to the emotional center of the character, except like you don't. And I still just in promising moment woman, it's less that I don't understand it and more that I don't totally believe it. They don't connect all of the events or the motivations of the character in a way that adds up for me. In Salt Burn, I don't think they even really bother, she even really bothers connecting it.

But I find that hard to believe. Like, with promising young woman yeah my my personal biggest issue with it and i talked about it on what i thought was like ultimately a very agonizing episode of our show like i was like no i mean both were like straining to figure out like why is this such an important movie yeah and and we were both like trying not to be dismissive about it. Right. And I did write in the outline, like, Saltburn has like, if nothing else, has unlocked the door for me to say like, that movie did not work for me. Straight up. Right. Well, that's, I didn't revisit, so I can't say for sure. I, at the time, was like, you know what?

It's exciting to have a new young filmmaker. It was screened at Sundance. I don't even know if it was like a Focus Features movie at that point. Was it still independent like I was like you know these stories like this are very rare stories like that about sexual violence

rape the aftermath of rape are very rarely told with any style they're often kind of grim procedural stories or very like deeply emotional

and complicated stories but they they have a kind of like anticipated blandness to them you know that movie I think at least was attempting to upend that. I think that's one of the reasons

why it hit so hard because it was coming out of a period in our culture and especially in Hollywood where those ideas were very resonant, as you said. The ending of that movie is like a complete rejection

of the entire movie where a person who had been disbelieved and I think committed suicide because she was disbelieved by the people in her community and law enforcement. The Carey Mulligan character allows herself to be killed in a similar kind of rape-revenge plotting and then relies based on a letter on law enforcement

to reconcile the evildoers, the sexual assailants, in the movie. And so it's like i did you not just not like think about this like it's one of those things where you're like i have this comes up in like transformers movies where you're like why didn't the decepticons just go over there and i'm like you can't have like bond movie plotting in an issues oriented movie and this isn't the same problem it's like you just didn't think about how the plotting is supposed to work and what the motivations of the characters are supposed to be in a character study why'd you make the movie yeah i don't know it's pretty weird it's weird i i i don't know and i mean that that is like the central thing i am so i alluded to the context in which i saw this film salt burn uh which is that i went to a screening date with my husband who sat next to me because we were there together and then um

in my opinion behaved quite badly which i he just he couldn't sit still and because we've been together so long i like understood that it meant that he like really didn't like the movie was really uncomfortable really fidgety i think anyone else except for the person like we sat on the aisle so it was fine um wouldn't have noticed but i was like ready to salt for him burn him myself like i was just like get the fuck out of here i'm just trying to watch a movie like you didn't even anyway so then we had a fight um and then last night i said can you in like a reasonable way you know express to me what caused such a strong reaction and part of it to him was like it's just you know sometimes you see something or you meet someone where it's just oil and water it's like i like i'm just like allergic it's it's just not

my style some people are having that reaction some people are having that and i and i. It's like, I'm just like allergic. It's just not my style of filmmaking. I do think some people are having that reaction. And some people are having that. And I think that's, you know, I trot out like not for me a lot. You know what I was thinking of? Yeah. It's kind of black licorice filmmaking. This is a phrase I've thought about

a lot recently. Yeah. Where it's like, sometimes somebody's got a tone where you're just like, eh, I can't like, I get that out of my mouth.

And plenty of people do. I don't think she has that for me. That's not what I'm saying. including James Gunn. Right, right. You know, but it's like, it's like a similar thing and and so my my husband was like i straight up part of it is just that and then part of it was the you know provocation with no ideas behind it so like shock factor with no substance and we sat there for a while

trying to figure out i said do you think that there is no idea or do you think that it thinks it has an idea and we just can't figure it out and we sat there for a while trying to figure out what the idea might be i honestly can't like nor could he i genuinely don't know what it is okay so let so let me use that as a jumping off point because we've seen all these really fascinating movies this year from mostly seasoned artists but some

new filmmakers too. Like, you know, we saw Past Lives, for example. Like, that's a movie with a lot of big ideas and a lot of themes about the nature of fate and, you know, the decisions that we make. And we make a point on the show, especially when we episodes like this where they're almost entirely focused on one movie where we're really trying to search and explore like what the artist's intentions are and what the story is trying to say to us and i put a lot of stock in that like i maybe overread at times

maybe over maybe all the time i overread but i think it's worthwhile when you look at killers of the flower moon to better understand or frankly like barbie and oppenheimer two movies that i think have very clear ideas about that they're trying to convey whether they're successful or not you may disagree um i find that this to be a rewarding aspect of this thing that we're doing together so it's confounding when a kind of quote unquote big movie like this comes along and actually checks a lot of the boxes that we want from the filmmakers that we admire, where you'd be like, wow,

from like a technical perspective, this is really well done. It looks great. It's got an incredible energy. You know, movies, a lot, most movies are just about energy.

It's about how they're cut. It's about how, how they, how you feel when you're watching them, when a needle drop hits. Yeah. Good performances. Like if you just did the,

like, what are the 10 things you need for a movie to be good? It's got like seven of the 10. Yeah. but it's missing a couple of really big ones and so i don't think it's a mistake on the other hand the reason i'm bringing all i say all of that is to say like we talked about five nights at freddy's a few weeks ago and at the end of our conversation where i was like that movie stinks i was like you know what It's just gateway horror. It's an entry point for 12-year-olds or 18-year-olds to check out more horror. And we've all had those kinds of movies. A Few Good Men, which I fucking love, is not Citizen Kane.

No, it's not. It was an entry point to a kind of movie star performance, courtroom drama, all the stuff that we dig, that we talk about all the time. It's a skeleton key. I think Saltburton is going to be a skeleton key for people who are like i'm really into psychopathic obsessive movies yeah that's cool and you should if you haven't seen ripley and you're 19 yeah and you didn't come to see you presented at the cinematech oh yeah that was so fun yeah i thought it was so perfect that this movie came out this year when you did that you know what i mean like then maybe it'll lead you to that maybe it'll lead you to the movies of Joseph Losey maybe it'll lead you to like look at Yorgos Lanthimos movies a little differently like

Killing of a Sacred Deer is an incredible double feature with Sloughburn because it's basically the same character that Barry Keoghan's playing yeah it's kind of insidious unreadable like agent of death so but that makes me wonder why Barry Keoghan wanted to do this he already made that movie well because I think as an actor you get to do you know this is more fun new people and like this is more fun and like get to do different things i'm sure they honestly it seems like they had a blast on set so that's great the lesson here is i think and i feel this um often reading crime fiction and you know all the things I do for fun is that sometimes the answer to a mystery or to a movie like this is, well, they're a sociopath.

And that is actually not narratively or character, like satisfying. That is, that is like, sometimes in real life, that's, that's true. And I guess now we live in like therapy world. And so we're just like throwing around, you know, armchair diagnoses all over the place and trying to understand. And this movie has a little bit of that, both like therapized and just like general like TikTok, like world speak of like, we're just going to say the thing clearly. Here's what it is. We're not going to use subtext. We're just going to say the thing clearly here's what it is we're not going to use subtext we're not going to use metaphor we're not going to use illustration we're just going to tell you he is poor and he wants to be rich and so that made him fuck a grave or or he's a sociopath and so he saw something that he wanted and then he fucked a grave. You know?

Like, it's all there. Right. But that doesn't make a movie. You know what I'm saying? It's just, it's dime store fiction. You know what I mean? Like, it's just not, it's not serious. It is.

And there's actually nothing wrong with that. No. There's nothing wrong with it being a fun romp. But we do live in a time where um movies like this are presented as important and yeah why why why is it important uh because she won an oscar for another movie that's why that's that is exactly what it is cool you know i i like and we're we're a part of this i'm not enough people have won like garbage oscars for other stuff that like i just you know i, plenty of people are just like,

you know, here's like another like important film from, I'm not going to say a filmmaker's name here, but they're all bubble titles, you know, 2020, 2021 Oscars, you know,

that's like that Laker chip, you know, that's not a real chip. That Dodgers chip. That's not a real chip. There are plenty of people who won Oscars for nonsense in real years. I completely agree with you. So whatever.

And it's fine. We have plenty of male genre movies or things that we have to take really seriously. Kind of, but those movies actually don't win Oscars. Well, but you know what I'm saying. I do. It's fine. It's fine. it's fun to talk about it it is it is interesting like i think it's clearly it's not quite what our our friends

at the blank check pod would call a blank check because it's not a hundred million dollar movie i don't i don't a movie like this is not easy to get made honestly yeah it's an original story it does have a young hot cast cast, but box office-wise, who knows what it's going to do. I do think that there was a way, and maybe they're already doing this and I'm just not seeing it because I'm not there,

but there was a way to kind of TikTokify this movie the way that Barbie was. There was, and maybe there still is. And maybe it's not going to be until it goes to streaming

or something, but there are, and you can tell when someone is looking at the script, they're like, there are five incredible sequences in this movie.

Right, but you can't take eight-year-olds to, and you can't take your grandma, and you can't, you know, and you can't merchandise it. Like, I just saw someone wearing an I Am Knuff t-shirt, like, at Trader Joe's yesterday. It's not quite that, you're right. Yeah, no, it's just not. I'm not suggesting it could make a billion dollars. No, no, no. I'm just suggesting it could do pretty well. It still has time.

It's been compared a lot to Cruel Intentions, which, frankly, I think is disrespectful to Cruel Intentions. But another movie that doesn't really have a ton of ideas, but is a lot of fun. No. And that's a movie that is, like,

more closely based on a source text with, like, character beats. Yes. It's just, like, updating. Yeah, I think it's Dangerous Liaisons, right?

Is that the... So, like, I should probably revisit Dangerous Liaisons and be like, what is this movie about and if it's not really about anything

that's okay I think it's fine because everybody looks hot and it's pretty fun and if that's the intention of this movie that's cool yeah

I don't have a problem with that but I think that it exists in a world I mean Dangerous Liaisons is just about like you know people

are mean to each other and then they get their comeuppance, I guess, and also sex. I just don't think Felix was very mean to Oliver. No, he wasn't.

No, no, no, no. But this, but that's, it's a different movie. This isn't Dangerously Hisons. This is Sociopath. Oh, you're saying that's Dangerously Hisons.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, this is, he's a sociopath. It, like, it really is like what if Charles Ryder from Risehead Revisited were a sociopath um it like it really is like what if charles rider from brideshead revisited

were a sociopath yes instead of someone who converted to catholicism i think that's what happens i gotta be honest we have two copies of brideshead they're both still in a box somewhere so i couldn't reread it but there's a lot of catholic guilt and he doesn't get the house because of catholicism yeah tell me about it i know what that's like um you think this movie is a good double feature with call me by your name that's funny um sure okay i mean you know speaking of of jizz week that's right that's right that's exactly right and the chocolate mousse cups i would really love like a giant goblet of chocolate mousse with some whipped cream right now it's uh 10 43 i listen it's a week after Thanksgiving. Like I really,

I exercise it. It was like Negronis every day at 5 p.m. It was great. My in-laws watched the kid. I went to a bar, you know. Can't relate. It just cannot relate. That's on you. Sure. That's a good double feature. I mean, Ripley is the one. If you like Sopper, just go watch Ripley. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points.

Visit Superstore.ca to get started. Let's talk about big swings pretty quickly. I found this really hard. It's an ill-defined category. But it's also like it is a category, but I found it really hard just off the top of my head. Did I take any from you? Because I made a list of a bunch. No, you didn't. And I think the problem was that,

because the definition of this was, I'm glad they tried in a lot of ways. And I feel like that is the way that I describe most movies. That, you know, there are a lot of movies. That's on you. I know, I know. But I couldn't, it was like one of those things where you can't remember the word for something. I know there are a lot of movies out's on you i know i know but it's but so but i couldn't it was like one of those things where you can't remember the word for something i know there are a lot of movies

out there that i've said like well i'm really glad they tried this part is really great but i couldn't think of it i think i did also think that there had to be like some level of outlandishness in the undertaking absolutely for it to count as this as opposed to like yet another rom-com that I liked. You know? But that like other people didn't. Yeah.

The movie either has to be so big swings are often come from filmmakers who have had a previous success and are like I'm going to do something really bold.

It doesn't mean it's going to be a 300 million dollar movie. It doesn't mean it's going to be Waterworld. It means it's going to be something like with a crazy log line or a dramatic reimagining of history or you know something that uses something we already understand to change how we see it and that's true of all the

movies on our list right now like so why don't why don't you just go five through one and i'll go five through one rather than you know draw out all of these because i think that all of these movies are known quantities for us sure some of them are huge personal favorites for each of us but not all of them right and i tried to some of it was also i didn't want to just like talk about marie antoinette again though right that is that is that's a blank check too yeah that's a blank check but sure she wins the oscar and then she goes and she's talked about how that was just like a huge undertaking. And afterwards, she was like, I want to go back at like smaller scale. But I love that movie. None of these other movies, I think with the exception of two of them, are blank checks.

But they're all big slams on your list. Yeah. Okay. So, my five. Lol, Ajili. From the great Martin Brest. From Martin Brest! Starring Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck.

Like, they went for it and they tried to do a romantic comedy crime film all together. That's hard to do. Yep. Famously didn't work. Number four, a movie that I liked that they tried, but I also had a stroke when trying to summarize it. Yesterday? Inspired choice by you. Richard Curtis, Danny Boyle.

Only one person has heard the songs of the Beatles, but then actually it was two because John Lennon's still alive in this world. Okay, whatever. Number three, Joe writes Anna Karenina, which is adapting one of the great works of Russian literature and also like a thousand pages into one two hour movie. And the way that he does it is staging it as a play. And so there's a lot of meta stuff about storytelling adaptation, the scale or whatever. Sometimes I wish that he just made like a true operatic Anna Karenina, you know?

This is my favorite of his movies, even more so than Atonement. But it is your favorite of his. And I mean, Atonement also would have been on this list. I think this is more successful than Atonement. I think it's a bigger swing. Yeah, for sure. Bigger swing both in the adaptation you're describing

and the way that it's staged, which is, you know, it's like a play. Exactly. Also, it's a bigger swing. Yeah, for sure. A bigger swing both in the adaptation you're describing and the way that it's staged, which is, you know, it's like a play. Exactly. Also, it's just hard to adapt Atonement, the perfect novel. Anyway, or one of them. Love it. Okay. Number two is a tie between Moulin Rouge and La La Land.

You know. Moulin Rouge, don't care about it. But listen, if you want to talk about big swings, and I've said this before, my dad's review of Moulin Rouge is you really about it but listen if you want to talk about big swings and I've said this before my dad's review of Moulin Rouge is you really have to hand it to someone who stages the climax of their movie around a tango version

of the police's Roxanne that is true you do counterpoint you don't have to hand it to them in fact you should take it away from them you should take everything from them

it's funny whatever you know I know people love Moulin Rouge listen it's a bold movie for sure In fact, you should take it away from them. You should take everything from them. It's funny. Whatever. You know. I know people love Moulin Rouge. Listen. It's a bold movie for sure. Elephant love song, blasting out of the car, driving down Peachtree Road in 2002. You were there or you weren't.

Flip side of that. I can assure you I was not. Flip side of that is La La Land. Yep. Which is a big swing that also won Damon Chazelle the Best Director Oscar and, you know, many other things. But, you know, huge movie musical starring two people who are Broadway stars. I got to revisit this movie. I really like this movie.

I have always been so mixed. I just, and the ending is just. It is a very, very good ending. Extraordinary. Well, you know my guy, Chazelle, the king of endings. That's true but this one uh he recreated himself as opposed to just copy and pasting other movies anyway um that's not that's not what it was that's not what it was i know and i love a montage as much as the next person bobby hasn't logged on for some reason babylon let's go i like the

two hours in the middle very much i just don't feel The need to defend it I just Everybody knows Everybody agrees We've won Yeah Babylon 5 is on top You know what's

Fucking amazing Water Air Just saves everything Just keeps us alive Food Pizza It's like pizza

Pizza exactly Babylon is the pizza Of movies Okay You heard it here first On the big picture Food Like and subscribe

Tell your friends To listen to the pod I don't think I've ever said like and subscribe in my whole I've hosted north of a thousand podcasts and I don't think

I've ever said like and subscribe that's because we're not supposed to we're supposed to say follow is that true? yeah have you gotten that dictate from someone?

I think like not from me not from you that's true yeah that's the technology. The thing is, I don't think people like this show,

but they do subscribe. So it would be kind of a dissonant message to be sending. Can I tell a quick anecdote about this? Sorry. I know we're trying to wrap up. Yeah. Thanksgiving,

50 in-laws in the home, not an exaggeration. One of, I guess now my cousins, you know, a senior in college, Gabe. What's up, Gabe? Walks up to me.

He's like, hey, Amanda, you still work for The Ringer? Yes. You know about Plain English? And I was like, oh, yeah, the Derek Thompson podcast is very successful. He's very smart. Gabe is very interested in Plain English, asking me a lot of questions about how to have guests, all these sorts of things. He's like, how do you do it? And he's like, well, he's like, is it scripted? And I was like, well, you know, I'm not sure. Like, you know, when I do it, like we typically

have an outline and blah, blah, blah. Gabe just stops dead. Wait, you podcast? I was just like, just like deep, deep owned in the middle of Thanksgiving, which is awesome. Anyway, to his credit, Gabe then took out the phone, followed Big Pic. I watched him do it. He also followed Rewatchables. He said he'd be listening. Gabe, if you made it this far, you can send me your feedback. Your sister has my number.

Anyway, like and follow. Gabe, welcome. Thank you, Gabe. Welcome to the Babylon Hive. My number one is a film called Titanic. Yep. Yeah. Good one.

They built a whole ship. Pretty big swing. Yeah. Good movie. Yeah to the Babylon Hive. My number one is a film called Titanic. Yep. Yeah. Good one. They built a whole ship. Pretty big swing. Good movie. Yeah. I like this movie. They built the ship. Yeah. And the water tank.

Yeah. Okay. Here's my five. Number five, Vindalos Sky. I don't love, love, love every movie on my list. Yeah. I don't even know what my relationship is to this movie anymore. Okay.

Because I've thought about it a lot. It is easily the most un-Cameron Croweeron crowe movie it is an it is a remake of a of a spanish film called abrid los ojos um and featuring the same star as the spanish film penelope cruz and it's a movie about how crazy it is to be tom cruise um one of many movies honestly eyes wide shut is also about that increasingly the ethan hunt films are also about how crazy it is to be Tom Cruise. One of many movies, honestly. Eyes Wide Shut is also about that. Increasingly, the Ethan Hunt films are also about how crazy it is to be Tom Cruise. And Cameron Crowe never made anything like this ever again. A kind of like psychological sci-fi thriller

that is awfully confusing. At times ineffective, I feel comfortable saying, but mostly to me, really, really energetic and engaging. And a movie that maybe has too many ideas, kind of the opposite of Soul Burn. Kind of a little bit too much about like, what does it mean to be alive in the world? But a movie that I love quite a bit.

Have you seen the Penelope Cruz plane ads? No. She's just, I think it's during various sporting events. She's like the new spokesperson for an international airline. And she's just like watching a live soccer game on the plane because that's what you can do in the class. And then she sounds so bored as she's like, that was a bad call. That is the opposite of how she sounds in Ferrari.

She was incredible in Ferrari. So good in Ferrari. That was good. I like that. Yeah. I look forward to that pod. It's really great. Yeah, I thought it That was good. I like that. Yeah. I look forward to that pod. It's really great. Yeah, I thought it was very good.

I have one large note. Yeah, I have a couple notes. Yeah. But it kind of like quelled my like is Michael Mann okay thing. Yeah. It's like he's back.

Yeah. He's good. Okay. Number four is Southland Tales. This is Richard Kelly's extravagant follow-up to Donnie Darko.

One of the more malign movies upon release that has built a massive cult following now, starring The Rock, Justin Timberlake, among many other significant figures of this era. Was this 2006? This might have been 2006. Let's take a quick look. Not quite a blank check.

2006. How fitting. I wonder how this movie would pair with Saltburn in terms of representative dystopian views of our society uh just a just a harebrained movie from a harebrained filmmaker who i really like who basically hasn't made a movie in 13 years not since the box did you see the box cameron uh cameron diaz james marsden frank langella i don't think so okay just check that out based on richard matheson story i think 2009 okay that sounds right pretty good movie where were you were just drunk at a bar somewhere I don't think so. Okay. You should check that out. Based on a Richard Matheson story, I think 2009.

Okay. That sounds right. Pretty good movie. You were just drunk at a bar somewhere? Probably. Yeah. Okay, great. I saw the other movies in 2009. What were the other movies?

That's Inglourious Basterds, right? It was. Yeah. That was great. That's one. Yeah. That's okay. Thanks for seeing that movie.

Number three is A Cure for Wellness. Third interview I ever did on the pod. I remember this. Gore Verbinski. Yeah. Gore, of course, the director of My Beloved Rango.

He directed multiple Pirates of the Caribbean films, The Weatherman, Mouse Hunt, The Lone Ranger. Yeah. Possibly the weirdest filmography in Hollywood.

A big tent filmmaker. A Cure for Wellness is a movie about a guy who has to go to the Swiss Alps to retrieve his boss from a world-class spa. But what is actually happening at the spa is like they're sucking the souls out of the people who go there.

It's like a science fiction movie, a horror movie, a child bride movie, truly deranged Mia Goth performance in this movie. Maybe the beginning of the Mia Goth wave of psychos. You know, we encountered Mia Goth recently. I don't want to say too much, but we saw her in the wild. Mia Goth is out here parenting.

She looked just like us. Yeah, except way more beautiful, but that's okay. Obviously, but I was like, wow, I am the same as Mia Goth. I've never felt that. It was actually powerful to me. Yeah. A Cure for Wellness is cracked. It is so weird.

I have no idea how this movie got made. Good performance from Dane DeHaan in the movie. Nobody saw it. Nobody saw it. It's like a $75 million movie that made like $8 million. It's a true blue bomb. But I encourage people who dig horror and science fiction

to give it a shot. Number two is Magnolia. Yeah. One of the most touching movies ever made. Paul Thomas Anderson's second film, third film,

after Boogie Nights. It's a little bit like you don't have to put your whole diary in the movie. But I think that's, I think that's, that is a big swing.

Yeah, it is. That is a big swing. Sure. And of course, Frog's falling from the sky. Yeah, no, it counts. Nothing bigger. that is a big swing. Yeah, it is. That is a big swing. Sure. And of course, frogs falling from the sky. Yeah, no, it counts. Nothing bigger. The number one is JFK.

Yeah, why not? Let's talk about JFK quick. Yo, unreal content from our guy. From BS? Yeah. Yeah. He's back on the case. There's no one better

than Bill solving who really killed JFK. Like, he posted about it on Thanksgiving, and I just, like, I woke up and I was like, this is why I love this man. He's like Philip Marlowe, J. Edgar Hoover, and the guys who killed bin Laden, all put together, discovering who killed JFK.

The doctors have remained consistent on this. What a fucking king. I love him. I watched on Paramount Plus what the doctor saw, JFK colon, what the doctor saw on Bill's recommendation. And I was riveted. It was 90 minutes of 80 year old men 10 years ago talking about everything that they saw on the day that John F. Kennedy was killed. And he is right. They have been consistent on this issue. And there is simply no explanation. There is some funny business happening in that autopsy. And we deserve to know the truth.

I stand with Bill. I stand with him. Bill also re-shared JFK Rewatchables, which is my true comfort food. I honestly, like, I'll probably put it on on the way home because I don't want to listen to any more of you guys talking about monsters to be honest um that was that was a that was weird that was a monday was an unideal recording circumstance yeah we did one pod we were like yelling at each other and then i did a pod with chris for 28 minutes about godzilla and then we had another pod yelling at each other i want to bring more positivity to this experience we're sharing anyway Anyway, JFK Rewatchables is one of my

Hall of Fame Rewatchables episodes for sure. Thanks for saying so. I had a great time. It's so, because you guys are all deranged

except for you. I was trying to be normal but you know what? Bill was right. And Bill is just like, where are your theories? Let's go. Yeah.

Well, it felt irresponsible at the time but now 60 years later some new shit has come to light as they said in the Big Lebowski.

Anyway, what a movie. He went for it. I love big swings. Speaking of big swings. What a segue. Alexander Payne, director of Downsizing,

one of the great big swings of the 21st century, is here on the show. So let's go to my conversation with him. honored to be joined by alexander pain thank you for being on the show sir with pleasure i wanted to ask about isolation because it feels like a pretty big theme of the holdovers and it does come in the aftermath of the pandemic. And I was wondering if that was at all a factor in thinking about this story as appropriate for this time. No. Not even a little bit?

No, it's completely coincidental. I mean, I can't say other forces weren't at work. Who knows? But all I know is the pandemic sure gave David Hemmingson, the the writer and me time to get the script in fighting shape. Have you thought much about whether or not that's why people are connecting to it? Because of the pandemic? Well, just the idea of a lot of time spent in places with a limited group of people. I have not.

It's interesting. That has not occurred to me at all. And not to take anything away from your fine thought, but that had not occurred to me at all and and i'm not to take anything away from your fine thought but i that had not occurred to me i assume you did want to do something more grounded in the aftermath of downsizing which by the way i am a massive defender of and love as a movie thank you define grounded um well certainly like less fantastical in terms of the approach, but also even just the world being a little smaller, fewer characters, et cetera. Yeah, sure, but I wouldn't necessarily call the desire to make the holdovers a reaction to downsizing. I had already had the idea for the holdovers, and it's simply that the script was ready. That was the next script's simply that the script was ready.

That was the next script I had that was ready, essentially. Do you think strategically at this point, in terms of I want to be able to do this movie and then this movie, or is it just kind of whatever can get made? How do you think about that aspect? Yeah, I wish I could operate my career with my high beams, but I pretty much just have my fog lights on. Is it harder now than it was, say, 10 years ago or 20 years ago?

No, you mean to get to which part? There are two hard parts. One is, and this is why I haven't made more features, is I'm just slightly slow. I hope to remedy this, but I'm just a little slow on the screenplay front. So that's how hard it is to get the idea, that flash of an idea that, oh, this could be a movie and it could see me through two or three years of work on the film and then having to talk about it, God willing, you know, when it's done. So there's that. And then the work of writing the screenplay

and then the work of finding the financing. All of that, let's talk about the finding the financing part. Each film's been a little bit different. It's never easy. It's never easy. It's only degrees of hard, less hard or more hard, at least in my experience. It's a little easier when you have a big movie star, when i declared i wanted to make the descendants and had george clooney in the lead that you know and my previous movie had been sideways which had been successful so that one was less hard however my third film i had the biggest fish of all i had jack nicholsonson in About Schmidt. And the studio that financed the script and could have made the film, I won't mention the studio, but its initials are Sony, passed on it. And bless her heart, I remember meeting with Amy Pascal.

And she said, this is such a depressing story. I said, no, it's a comedy. It's depressing to me. And then the producer and I said, yes, but we have Jack Nicholson. And she said, oh, it's a comedy. It's depressing to me. And then the producer and I said, yes, but we have Jack Nicholson. And she said, oh, you mean an expensive, depressing movie. So New Line, Bob Shea and New Line ended up making it. But sometimes even when you have a big movie star, it can be hard. Do you find that the movie star equation has changed much? Because people were so happy to see you and Paul Giamatti reunited. And obviously,

you guys were so magical on Sideways. And I know you had thought about and tried to do other things with him over the years, but he's not a classical movie star. But in a way, you kind of know what you're getting. And if you like Paul Giamatti, then this is a movie made for you. So do things work the same way in that respect? I'm going to not correct you. Let me just add to your question. I think Paul Giamatti is a movie star. He simply has no comps. He's a movie star in the way, maybe better, Edward G. Robinson was a movie star. Charles Lawton was a movie star, maybe even mix in a little Spencer Tracy, but I think he is a, a movie star.

There's, and to his credit, ultimately there is no one like him, but he can play anything. And I think people love to look at him and people, he brings a love, lovableness, lovability to everything he does.

So I'm hoping that, that this movie will help others see that, that he is a massive movie star. Simply, I'm repeating myself with no comps. I have to trust in my own taste. I want to see him. I want to look at him. I do too.

I do too. I was very happy to see him back with you. You mentioned that David Hemmingsen wrote the screenplay and that the writing part is hard. You conceived of the holdovers and kind of put the ball in his court. And I know he used some of his experiences growing up to add to the screenplay. Is that something that you would do more now going forward? Almost sort of locate a writer who can take a concept? Because that is a way to kind of get around some of that trickiness of the writing part you're talking about. The trickiness mean me,

meaning the, that terrifying leap from page Blanche. Yes, exactly. Having something. Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think, you know,

I've been asked like, well, you're a fine writer yourself. You've won a couple Oscars for writing. Why aren't you writing? I'm like, maybe. So two things.

One is maybe because I am a writer, have been a screenwriter, I have confidence that I can help bring this baby on home, you know, and, and even when I'm working with fine writers like Bob Nelson on Nebraska, David Hemmingson on this one, I still get oil under my nails, you know, getting under the hood, you know, I have to make it, I have to write it. So it's my taste and directable by me. So that's number one. And number two is I had the wonderful, David Hemmingson gave me the wonderful experience of, let's say, directing a writer. You know, I direct all the other artists and artisans who work on a film that I'm doing. So it kind of makes sense that I might be

doing that with the writer as well. You know, I gave him the idea and we hashed out the story together and then he got it up on his feet. And then I could just say, well, how about a little bit more like this or a little bit more like this, or I need help with this. And it was a really rich experience. You know, there's been so much talked about, about your love and appreciation for seventies films and how this is obviously, you know, consonant with those films. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit less about maybe the

characters or the writing and about the filmmaking choices you used in the movie that kind of maybe reflect that like we're stylistically, were there things that you wanted to do that you hadn't done before that you think could, could fit this kind of story? In a way, there's nothing new in this movie that hasn't been in my previous films. Even editorial techniques that I'm being asked about, lots of dissolves and long dissolves and wipes, and that's in editing. And even in shooting snap zooms, I've used all those before and maybe they just didn't stick out quite as

much because they weren't in a movie that's kind of presenting the guise of being an actual 70s film. The only thing I did brand new in this one was something kind of boring maybe as an aspect ratio. I shot it in 166. I did that because I'm still in film school. And I had never shot 1.66. So I wanted to have the experience of shooting 1.66. And then also I thought because so I've shot widescreen two or three times and 1.85 the rest of the times. And those are wonderful aspect ratios, but for a human story, you want really good close-ups. And the narrower your aspect ratio is, then you get richer, more satisfying close-ups, I feel. Yeah. I assume that that's where my mind was, was that this is a story set in 1971. And so I'm looking at the film and I'm like,

those feel like techniques that I've seen before. But I guess you right I guess an election you see a snap zoom you know you see you see that some of those tricks before did you feel like you had to overemphasize wasn't were you not even giving any thought to those those those moves that you've made in the past obviously like the focus features logo for example has been modified to look like what it would have looked like in 1971 which is a clever stroke but like in the filmmaking techniques, are you not even saying, I want to try this because it reminds me of Hal Ashby movie? The only thing I was doing, so let me pivot your question slightly. And I've said this in interviews before, so forgive me for repeating myself. But I wasn't saying, oh, this will be like a 70s movie. I was thinking, I am in 1970 or 71 making a movie now.

What occurs to me? And I think it may seem like a semantic or subtle difference, but for me it wasn't. I really considered that I was making a contemporary movie, just pretending that I was in 1970. I know you don't typically storyboard, but... How do you know that? I've heard you say that.

I've heard you say that very, very rarely. Maybe during downsizing, some storyboards? Yeah, when you have action, you have to do pre-visualization for visual effects because they have to know exactly what the visual effects are going to be so it can be budgeted

and all that kind of stuff. Yes, but I don't like to do that. You have a great knack for composition though. As a novice, explain to me, for example, the New Year's Eve sequence in this movie where we see that

final image when the firecracker is set off and we see the sort of makeshift family through the window. Beautiful, incredible scene. If you're not storyboarding, is that something that is being hashed out the night before with your DP? Is it being hashed out three months

before you go into production? How do you figure those things out? I knew in advance, and I think given that location, that it would be lovely. It's kind of, first of all, thanks for the question and thanks for noticing it, because I haven't been asked about that yet. And I'm kind of, I'm moderately proud of that shot. I just thought that it would be nice, because that New Year's Eve celebration is sort of the last hurrah of this vacation time. And in a way,

the end of a dream. So I wanted to be in with the characters, but then end it outside looking through a proscenium, if you will, and backing the camera off, barely hearing what's going on inside. And then having a very, very very very slow fade to black and a long breath before we're snapped back into the reality of the new semester so uh but no that's uh not in the screenplay not storyboarded but just something you know you don't have to storyboard something in order to have thought of it to think about it in advance and then tell people because in order to so i couldn't have decided that a day before early because we had to bring in a crane so the crane had to be ordered weeks in advance and parked outside at the right height so that once

we were satisfied with the action inside i hopped out and then you know went up in the the cherry picker whatever it was it wasn't a crane it was a what do you call this scissor lift it was a scissor lift so all of that had to be ordered in advance yeah i ask in part because um you know you have written screenplays and i assume in some in certain cases you could write in exactly how you want the shot to look but when you're working you know with a screenplay that's been turned in and obviously you've edited and worked on but still the kind of conception of the movie doesn't make making the movie any different to you if you are working in collaboration like that with the screenwriter as opposed to you and your your screenwriting partner sitting together no because before we publish the

screenplay I go through it and remove I'm super brutal about any unnecessary. Because listen, it's the writer's work. However, by the time that thing is going to enter production, everyone follows the instruction. It's the instruction manual for the actors, for production, for many departments. So my directorial hand has to be inside the screenplay and number one i want it to be as as concise as humanly possible so that people can read it and then secondly if there are details in it that the reader does not need to know or the actor doesn't need to know, I get rid of them and tell them separately to the department heads or to the actors.

But also, I want to make sure, it's mostly for the actors, that some of the emotional beats and through lines are explained however concisely. Because that's like the Bible. It's in the screenplay that I do X, Y, Z. So I want to make sure that I've got my first directions for how the movie should play in the screenplay. Are you talking to your actors a lot on set or is it by the time you are shooting motivation, intention, et cetera, all understood? The latter. The latter. A lot of it is simply casting. If you've cast the right people, you're already pretty much down the football field.

And then I try to speak as little as possible to actors. A big flaw of younger directors and film school directors is talking the actors to death. It's just a big mistake. I have a related question to that. I know you've told the story of discovering Dominic Sessa many times, and I won't make you do that again, but I was wondering after hearing you tell it, do you think that acting is a either you got it or you don't got it proposition? Because I watched Dominic and I'm like, that guy, he's got it. Whatever that is, he's, he's good. No, I mean, others who don't have it as much as someone like Dominic or Paul has it, uh, can do it. You can take classes and learn techniques and so many thousands and thousands of people have and had careers at it. The other thing though, for for film acting is is something you can't control and it is something which you have or do not have which is a face and a face for cinema

uh it doesn't have to be pretty can be pretty ugly you know whatever but it's a face onto which an audience can project their own feeling, its own feelings. Take an actress like Monica Vitti, Antonioni's Monica Vitti. Is she the most brilliant actress in the world? No. Is she a wonderful actress? Yes.

But she has a face that you just look at and you project so much onto it that she's got a magnificent, she's a magnificent cinema actress. Rest in peace now, of course. So there are a lot of different things that fall into, it depends on how high the actor is going to rise as a film personage but it's talent ability skill and then also that certain something of that the that the that hackneyed phrase that the camera loves him yeah the camera loves certain people and doesn't love other people man it's maybe i don't know if it was at the beginning but maybe over time, those stars develop a relationship with the lens that's really unique. And I think sometimes they can tell truth to that lens, tell truth to the lens that they don't tell any single human being. They're very aware of that lens looking at them and what they give to the lens. It's a really

interesting relationship between movie star and lens. I feel like it's similar to baseball pitchers where you know that baseball pitchers talk to each other about what you can and should do, but they would never talk about those things publicly. And I often feel like movie stars and people who know how to hold the lens like you're describing, there's some sort of hidden language that we just don't get access to. If we have time on your show, just give me 30 seconds. What do pitchers talk about? Well, there's the banal stuff, how you grip the ball, but then there's a psychological aspect to approach based on the count that you're in or a runner is on base at this time or what inning you are in. And there's nuance to every circumstance in the same way that I imagine

that there is. If you're making an Alexander Payne movie who likes a nice close-up on his star, what's the best way to hold the frame in that situation? What's the best move to make? I think these things are like illusory, but I think you're right that there's something unspoken that is very powerful. It's one of the reasons I love movies. That's fascinating about pitchers. It's true, I believe. Great pitchers and great hitters are like these remarkable freaks of nature. So it makes sense that they would have a secret language.

Yes, processors of information. Okay, one more for you before we let you go. We do end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen. You're a world-class cinephile. Have you seen anything good lately? You know, I just watched with my mom Night Before Last in Omaha on TCM. I've seen it 30 times, and again, it was the first time.

Double indemnity. Oh, yeah. What a movie. What dialogue. What act. Edward G. Robinson. Oh, my God. The use of music. The use of setups and payoffs.

The older I get, the more I appreciate the movies that I've seen many, many times. And then each time I see them, it's as though it's the first time. We're in the Christmas season, so It's a Wonderful Life is going to come up. That's another one. Every time you see it, you think, God, I didn't remember it was that dark. I didn't remember it was that rich, that vivid a portrait of post-war American life. Yeah. I've just had a child a couple of years ago and it hits differently. It's a wonderful life after you've had a family too. How about that? How about that? So I wish I could give you a more

arcane answer, but I just happened to watch the last movie I've seen was Double Indemnity. And boy, that sure packs a wallop. What a director. An all-time classic. Alexander Payne, thank you so much. You're very welcome. Thank you to Alexander Payne. Thanks to Amanda. And thank you to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on today's episode. Later this week, an old friend joins us

to talk about two exciting new films, Beyonce's Renaissance and Todd Haynes' May December. We'll see you then.