The Big Picture - Sex, Hell, and 10 Movies We Missed This Summer. Plus: Gregg Araki!

Episode Date: July 28, 2026

It’s Sean’s (observed) birthday, and what better way to celebrate than by reacting to the news that Ryan Gosling will star as Ghost Rider in a Shawn Levy–directed MCU film? Then, they cover some additional movie news before giving a brief update on their Summer Movie Preview game. Next, they cover a handful of recent releases they haven’t discussed on the show yet, ranging anywhere from interesting to awful. Finally, Sean is joined by Gregg Araki to discuss his new film, ‘I Want Your Sex,’ starring Olivia Wilde and Cooper Hoffman. He breaks down what he learned over the last decade making television, discusses why he put so much of his personal self into the main characters of this movie, and tells the story of how he cast Wilde and Hoffman in the lead parts. (0:00) Intro (1:21) Sean’s birthday episode (it’s over; he’s hit the age cliff) (2:34) Ryan Gosling will star as Ghost Rider in a Shawn Levy–directed MCU film (8:54) David Jonsson announced as the next Black Panther (11:18) The box office success of ‘The Odyssey’ (15:48) Director Chuck Russell passed away at 74 (17:45) Summer Movie Preview game check-in (24:08) Some movies we still haven't seen (27:49) Ten movies we missed (27:58) ‘Moana’ (33:48) ‘Minions & Monsters’ (40:33) ‘The Dink’ (47:56) ‘Gail Daughtry and the Celebrity Sex Pass’ (54:55) ‘Evil Dead Burn’ (58:04) ‘I Want Your Sex’ (1:01:08) ‘Her Private Hell’ (1:06:37) ‘Young Washington’ (1:14:21) ‘Motor City’ (1:19:28) ‘Voicemails for Isabelle’ (1:32:40) ‘The Samurai and the Prisoner’ (1:33:59) ‘Sheep in the Box’ (1:34:41) ‘Late Fame’ (1:38:42) Previewing August movies (1:40:10) Gregg Araki joins the show! Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Gregg Araki Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennacy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the big picture. Great Conversation Show about 10 movies we missed. It's been a busy summer and some titles have flown under the radar. We want to give you the latest on many of them. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Greg O'Rocki, an icon of independent cinema, a pioneer of the new queer cinema,

and a director who really scrambled my brain in a wonderful way when I was a teenager. Rocky's first film in 12 years arrives on Friday. It's called I Want Your Sex. It stars Olivia Wilde, recent favorite of the show, Cooper Hoffman, another favorite, and his very much signature Iraqi, screwball funny, movie obsessed, and sexually minded. I talked to Greg about his long career, his influence as a filmmaker, and how he stays connected to young people so many years later.

Stick around for that. But first, a lot of movie news out of Comic-Con right after this. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. One of the best things about streaming is that you never just pick a title. You pick a feeling. And Prime makes that easy. With great entertainment and fast shipping that brings the moment to life, Prime helps you experience the feeling you're craving.

Shows you can't wait for and deliveries you don't wait for, one click away, from streaming to fast. Shipping, it's on Prime. Okay, Amanda, you've just been... Birthday boy! Birthday boy! The cliff is here! Yeah.

How does it feel that this, your birthday episode? This is Sean's birthday, observed. Observed, yes. The day was yesterday. This is, but it's a federal holiday. It's a bank holiday. Yeah, exactly. And so here we are to celebrate you reaching the point where your body starts breaking down,

that's scientifically backed, with a lot of news about Marvel. Yeah. It all comes full circle, you know. My eyesight is going just in time for me to not have to watch some of these movies. Yeah. Happy birthday. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. You know, we had a wonderful time together on Saturday night and had a very low-key day on Sunday with my family. Exactly how I like it. We watched movies. I bought some movies. Can't do better. This morning, I've been thinking a lot about Marvel, which of course has been a hot topic on this show in recent weeks after the Doom. Day trailer and in recent years because we've been making a podcast about movies for one decade during the biggest decade in comic book movie history. Well, during half of the... Half of, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. We've seen some ebbs and flows. But, you know, I think things really crescendoed in 2019. We were going at that point. Yeah. And here we are. Comic Con just happened. You were there for 10 straight days.

Shout out to the Bringerverse team. They made some wonderful content out of there. They stayed until the end, which you noted. Yeah. Yeah, so there's a lot of news that we're going to share, but I guess the biggest news. Well, I actually think that the new Black Panther is the biggest news, but the other news, the most heads grashing news, is that Ryan Gosling, he of Barbie, he of a Star Wars movie, Starfighter. Starfighter, yeah. He of other movies that we love and then other movies that many people have seen.

The notebook, Walla Land, crazy stupid love. But the movies people have seen are not always. Yeah. First man, the nice guys. Sure, that's right. Place beyond the pines. Only God forgives. Drive.

So now he is also joining the MCU in a Sean Levy directed film and he will star as Ghost Rider. I know what most of those words mean. So do you know who Ghost Rider is? No, but I want to share with you and the world how I learned of this news. Okay. Which was also on Saturday Night. It was announced the big Saturday Night panel at Comic Con. And you and I held a joint birthday party, had a great time.

I did some cleanup. Got in bed, about 1.15, way past Amanda's bedtime. A couple negronies in the tank. Open up my phone. And I, like, I was so confused. I looked at all the photos, and I was like, am I really drunk? Like, is this, it was sort of like the Bill colonoscopy story. But me and, like, a, you know, a groni ask me.

It was just like, what's happening? So what was confusing? That this is what Gosling chose to do. Yes. And also, this was sort of the one franchise world that he hadn't sold out to yet. You know, I was just kind of keeping all of my big budget IPs separate. Yeah. And it all melded together in my head.

And then there were also a lot of photoshopps of him bursting into flame, which you would think at that hour of the night would encourage me to Google Ghost Rider, but instead I went to bed. Okay. I mean, I don't think you need to know too much about Ghost Rider. I'll just say for the record in the parlance of Mark Maron, Ghost Rider, not one of my guys. Sure.

Fun fact, I've never seen the two Nicholas Cage Ghost Rider movies. So those are comic book films. I think I've seen almost every comic book film ever made. I've never seen those movies. There's a funny little component to this story, which do you know who the female lead of the original ghost writer film is? I don't. It's Eva Mendez, Ryan Gosling's wife and the mother of his children.

And a wonderful actress who I wish would come back to cinema. She, I guess, they share that, that they'll have the ghost writer. universe between them. I think actually if you look at not just the arc of Gosling's choices recently, but also the stage of life that he's at, I think this makes sense. I can say definitively, this isn't what I would want from one of my favorite movie stars. And certainly not, you know, I spent the weekend sending emails to people saying, you know, we've buried the place beyond the pines, Ryan Gosling, like a Viking funeral, like it's over. He's not that person anymore. He's not making movies like that. He's not interested in movies like that.

Quick follow-up. So that's how you spent your birthday was writing emails. Yeah. Uologizing. Texting. Texting with fellow men. Okay. So just news and deals.

Between 2010 and 2018. Okay. Those characters meant the world to me. They're sort of my adult version of the MCU. And that guy's gone. And now we know Gossling, you know, communicated in part to your husband when he profiled him. I think it was for Barbie or the fall guy.

I can't remember. Great question. remember. Anyway, I mean, he talked about how he's like, my kids are growing up. I want to make one movie a year. I want to make movies that my kids can enjoy. I want to make big tent pole movies. Presumably he wants to be paid a large sum of money for those movies.

If we look at his 2020s, these are the movies he's made. The Grey Man for Netflix. The Fall Guy for Universal film that is sort of IP and didn't totally work and maybe even pushed him even further in this direction. And then Barbie, Project Hail Mary. Terrific movie, but still IP in its way. Star Wars Starfighter and now Ghost Rider. This story was for Barbie.

It was for Barbie, okay. I mean, Star Wars Starfighter, this tells you a little bit about it. It tells you that, one, I know that this movie is completed production, and it sounds like Disney really likes it. Otherwise, they would not have reunited Sean Levy and Ryan Gosling for this movie, presumably for a lot of money. It's also, I think it's going to be the first post-secret Wars MCU movie. So, like, you know, Dumes Day is coming out this Christmas.

Next Christmas, there's the second Avengers. movie, Secret Wars. Right. And there's nothing in between, said Kevin Feigy. There's nothing in between. So it's just two Marvel movies over the next two years. And so that tells you that this is, like, going to be a big deal to Marvel. Once upon a time, I think I talked to Mal and Joanna on a podcast about how there's a whole

wing of, like, horror adjacent characters in Marvel. Yes. And Ghost Rider is one of the most prominent. So I have since, while you were monologuing Googled Ghost Rider, I'd like to read you these two sentences from the Wikipedia page. At night and when around evil, Blaze, who's the first ghostwriter, finds his flesh consumed by hellfire,

causing his head to become a flaming skull. He rides a fiery motorcycle and wields blasts of hellfire from his body, usually from his hands. Yeah. Okay. His full name is Johnny Blaze, which was then adopted by Methodman, Wu-Tang Clan rapper. Sure. You know, Ghost Rider's fine.

It's a little like guys who really like, you know, leather jackets and with spike. on them? I will say that fire is not one of the effects that has been totally nailed down. By CGII, you mean? Yeah. Maybe they'll do it practically.

Maybe. Sean Levy loves practical shooting. Okay. You know, I'm not a fan of Sean Levy's cinema. Yeah. I don't think he makes great films. There are many other monologues available in the backlog of this podcast. Yeah, I don't think he's a great director.

I think he's a very trusted studio hand, right? And it's very clear that Disney is very comfortable with him and they should be. Starfighter You know That's probably going to be a lot of podcasts Okay Maybe it'll be good May 28th, 2027

It's Memorial Day next year That's my anniversary So What a great way to spend it I'm going to be spending it with Ryan Osling And a shot and leave you part one I think you're right though

That the bigger news out of this Is that there's a new Black Panther Yeah Which we had not really You and I had certainly not speculated That was something that Ryan Cooler was going to do We did talk about how this was almost certainly going to be his next movie after Sinners and the crazy success of that movie.

But Shuri was in the primary position in Black Panther 2 and Wakanda Forever. And now it's been announced that David Johnson, who is the star, was the star of the first couple seasons of industry, Alien Romulus, the Long Walk last year. We'll be playing Tachala's grown-up son, which means clearly there's going to be some sort of fast forward in the timeline. I'm not sure how that impacts all the other Revengers movies. But I think this is a great choice. He's a great actor. I've really liked him in other films when I talked about the Long Walk.

I talked about how great he and Cooper Hoffman were together. He's terrific as the droid in the robot in Alien Romulus. Wonderful in Rye Lane, which is a underseen romantic comedy. I was just watching him last night in a small British prison drama called Waste Man that he was in with Tom Blythe. He was very good in that as well. So he's a really good actor. You know, this wouldn't be my first choice for what Cougalers is doing with his. his coin, but I know that these movies mean a lot to him and to millions of people. And I thought

Wakanda Forever was probably his least successful movie overall, but I'm excited to see what Johnson can do. I don't know. What do you think? Any takeaways from this? I think we did walk away from Wakanda Forever feeling, you know, disappointed relative to the original of Black Panther. And also, you know, obviously Chadwick Mosman's death affected that production and what they were doing with the character in that moment in such way. But, you know, it, the Shuri thing was both, obvious and not like a totally natural fit and it just didn't quite come together. So I'm pleased for them to have another chance to do it well. And I really like David Johnson. So yeah, that's cool. Did you see any of the photos of him at Comic Con? I saw the behind the scenes video of him as

they were announcing it. A waiting to go out. Yeah. And then going out. And also that Ryan Coogler was wearing the row, which is shout out Ryan Coogler. But I thought that was very lovely. He's already starting to look a little jacked, Johnson. I wouldn't say he's the most physically imposing Marvel superhero that we've seen yet, but he clearly is starting to put on some muscle mass. That's exciting for him. Yeah. As somebody who has already gone over the cliff, it's too late for me, but I'm happy for him.

Let's talk briefly about The Odyssey. Okay. So it's made $640 million in eight and a half days. Yeah. Is that good? Yes. It's pretty good. It's good job.

It's a lot of money. A 29% drop, which is fucking insane. It made $90 million domestically. It outgrossed Oppenheimer's opening weekend in its second weekend. It's the 10th highest-grossing R-rated movie of all time today. Yeah. It's headed for maybe $1.3 billion, possibly $1.5 billion. The highest grossing R-rated movie of all time is what?

Of all time? The Dark Night? No. Deadpool and Wolverine. Deadpool and Wolverine. And Deadpool and Wolverine directed by Sean Levy. I'm sorry. I honestly, I was just consumed by this image that just presented itself.

to me, which was Scrooge McDuck, but with Christopher Nolan's face and beautiful hair, yeah, paste it on top of it, diving into the sea of coins. And I don't know if that's a meme yet. No, but make it. Yeah, sure. And congratulations to them. Would you use AI to make that meme? No, that's why this is the real intelligence. The mind palace. It's here. That's how it happens.

Absolutely. Yeah, this is, this is insane. And this is probably going to be his biggest movie of all time. and it's a three-hour swords and sandals epic that Emily Wilson hated. And, you know, I'm not sure if you read that review. The London review of books. Yeah, so scathing takedown. It was awesome. She also, I subscribed to Emily Wilson's substack this weekend. And so this weekend, she just published it, published the unedited version of the answers that she gave to, I believe, the Associated Press, but whatever interviews that she did, she was like, well, they didn't use all of it.

So here it is. And it's basically, she doesn't love all of the attention put on the fact that she's the first woman. translator of The Odyssey. Okay. And, yes, she did not like the Odyssey, which the London Review of Books headline is an uncomplicated man, which is a play on the fact that her translation of the first line of the Odyssey calls him Odysseys is complicated. Really, really funny. You know, I think taste berries. And this is a person who has spent her entire life submerged in the epic traditions.

and, you know, like, maybe has fun in different ways than we do. Yeah, I thought it was a tremendously entertaining read. I mean, awesome. She's incredible writer. I love a good takedown. I think she made some salient points, and then there were other points that she made where I thought she was kind of purposefully misreading the text. She specifically is like, this isn't a film about like coming back from war and the hardships of war and the negative downsides of war. And I'm like, if you can't see that that's in the movie, then I'm like, if you can't see that that's in the movie,

then I don't know what movie you watched. There's a little bit of like academic gatekeeping going on. Well, yeah. A little bit of like, this is my specialty stuff in it. But I think also, I mean, the point about this poem, like, is not about coming home from war. I mean, I guess textually it's not. And he is doing a like far looser interpretation and adaptation. Right.

So she's in the business of interpreting and recreating something. But yeah, it is just a little bit like that's not what's in the book. Yeah. Which she's probably the only person on Earth who's allowed to say that. And I think it is very different from the book and his interpretation of what it means is very, very different. But, you know. This is very petty and maybe meaningless. But one thing is I was reading it and enjoying this piece was kind of echoing in my mind, which let me see if I can get back to this note that she shared on Blue Sky.

19 days ago, Emily Wilson, I am, of course, very excited for the Christopher Nolan. Odyssey film. Mr. Nolan didn't invite me to the premiere in London, but that's okay. And I was like, that's an odd thing to share. Why did you put that out in the public?

And then lo and behold, a few days later, she was like, this movie isn't good. It's an action. It's Jason Bourne, you know? Also, some of the issues are like, she doesn't like the score.

Yeah, that's crazy. Which is like, that's fine. Again, you can like other things, but, you know. I think there's a lot of valid criticism in the movie. It's been interesting to see the worm turn on it a little bit now that it has really

gotten out into the open. in a lot of people who don't see a lot of movies that have a lot of feelings about it. And I think some of her criticisms are very sound and interesting. It did feel a little bit ax grindy at times as I was reading it, though. But you know what? I've been there.

As somebody who talks about works of art publicly. Sure. She's doing the same. I wanted to give a quick shout out to the director, Chuck Russell, who passed away, whose work I really, really liked when I was a kid. He made Nightmare and Elm Street Three Dream Warriors. He made The Blob remake.

He made Jim Carries the Mask. which is a real banger. I actually recently rewatched it and it holds up great. Kind of the launch point for Cameron Diaz as a star, Carrie in the middle of his incredible rise to fame and success. And I really like Chuck's movie, so I wanted to give him a quick shout out. Anything else happened in the world of cinema for you over the weekend?

My son watched the Sandlot for the first time. How'd it go over? Twice. So great. Wow. And that felt really good. Sandlot, obviously, a generational banger. Yeah.

Benny the Jet, who is he into the most? Do you remember which character? I don't really think that he was, he was mostly nervous about the dog, about the beast. I was going to ask about the beast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was scared about the beast. Mom, I don't like this part. Okay.

And then anytime he could sense that there was discord and the kids were making fun of each other, he didn't like that very much. Did you explain to him that the man who plays the guy on the other side of the fence was Darth Vader? Because James Earl Jones is, you know, epic role. No, I didn't because that would confuse him. I was really just trying to get him to rehash basic plot points. Does he know that actors portray characters yet? Well, he knows about Tom Cruise. Sure.

And he's seen Tom Cruise in at least, well, he's seen Mission Impossible stunts, and then he's seen Top Gun Maverick. But he knows that there's a difference between Mav and Tom Cruise. Okay. So he does. Yeah, but I don't know that if it's like extended beyond that, I think it's still a little confusing. You should go home today and bring two photographs. One photograph will be a photo of Ryan Gosling and the other photograph will be a photo of Johnny Blaze, aka Ghost Rider.

And you can say these men are the same. See how we respond. Okay, update on the summer movie preview game. It's been two months since we did an update. Some decent calls. Okay. Some disastrous calls. Okay.

Let's recap it quickly. Backrooms, one of our worst guesses. This is the most recent film that, the first film that opened since we talked about this. I guess 67 million. You guessed $16 million, domestic box office. The film made $197 million. Okay.

Dang. What do we guess for obsessions? Obsession. I don't remember. Not very much. We might have talked about it on the episode. I think I guessed more than you, but I could be wrong. I did pretty good on Disclosure Day.

I guess $121, $1211 million. It's currently sitting in $116 million. Still in theaters. I saw Andy Greenwald over the weekend. He said he saw it in theaters over the weekend. So people are still seeing that. Her obsession, Amanda guessed 15 and you guessed 42. 42.

And that landed at like $400 million. I believe that's correct. That's crazy. Minions and monsters, sheesh. Yeah. So I guess $352 million. You guessed $350 million. And it came in in $149 million.

We'll talk about that movie very shortly. Supergirl, dang. I guessed 159 million. You guessed 190 million. It is sitting at 71 million. Yeah, that was tough. And I think that I used the math of looking up Marvels or Captain Marvel and then, like, guessing down, taking money away. And it still didn't even make it.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. If you think we overreacted to the negative feedback on Supergirl, the world did not care. Yeah. It's one of the lowest grossing DC movies in the history of that comic book franchise. Okay. So we're tied in point total right now on 10 out of 33 releases.

Okay. You have a higher point differential eight times. Six of those eight times it was by five or more. I have a higher point differential 15 times. Eight out of 15 times it was by one point. We're currently in a dead heat. Okay. I've got 104 points.

You've got 101 points. Okay. Who do you think is going to win? Probably you. But honestly, once you started doing point deferentials. I checked out. It's like a lot of numbers. A lot of...

Are you having fun with this? It's your birthday episode. Does it feel good that you're winning? Does this give you a sense of accomplishment? Well, you know, I've been thinking about this this year. I've been reflecting and, you know, I'm in a good spot. Okay. Things are going okay.

Like in your life. Yeah. Just not in your various movie drafts and fantasy leagues. Well, you know, I'm doing pretty well in my fantasy league. I know. I keep hearing about this from you and from other people. It's just it's not how I live my life. That you're not happy that I'm doing well?

No, I just, I'm not in various fantasy leagues for things. Oh, okay. I mean, it's just another way to pass the time. Sure. You know, it doesn't really mean anything, but it's also how you bond with your peers. That's beautiful. And we're bonding right now, talking about this game that I've created. I feel like I need a new game.

In life or on this podcast. Both. Okay. You know what I really wanted to do? When we went on to YouTube, I wanted, and Jack Sanders heard me talk about this, I really wanted to create like an atmosphere in which we could play games like with the extended family of the big picture on a more frequent basis where we could just like come into the studio for an hour and play our friend Corey Everett's cinephile game. Okay. You know, and just play the game on camera.

Now there were some technical technological components that were a little bit challenging. We didn't quite have the World Series of poker setup where you had an individual camera on everybody's hand. But I always thought that sort of thing would be fun to do and I thought the audience might enjoy it. never really came to fruition now we're Netflix when we're fucked. But I do want to go back to that spirit. Yeah. And YouTube doesn't exist and Instagram doesn't exist. No, they do.

They do exist. Where would you most want to do it? What platform? Peach. Does Peach still exist? I don't think so. Okay. That's sad.

I had some fun there. I don't remember anything about it except Peach. I want to live stream to Vimeo. Okay. Do you think Tooby would be interested in me playing board games? I feel like I feel like I would enjoy that That's the other thing

Alice hitting this age too Or it's just like we just play board games This is just something we can actively do together Well Candyland Obviously shoots in ladders Some classics We're working on oh shoot What's the fake clue game about foxes

Outfoxed Outfoxed going crazy right now Wow It's like a mystery guessing game Where you have to figure out Who is responsible for a crime Great great stuff But foxes

But animals yes Oh okay But it's not like, it's still a crime. Is it a non-violent crime? Is it trying to dump it down? Is it... I think it's assault and battery. Well, I'm just like, do you not want to do Clue because you don't want, like, murder?

I think it's a little too mature. Okay. So, yeah. But board games, I love them. I got to come up with another movie game. Okay. I have some ideas. Great.

Will you play? Yeah, of course. You know that I always play. And the less it is reading stats to me, the best. I will just say, you know? I know that that's taken over metrics have taken over all the sports, but they have not taken over my brain. I'm going from the gut. I will host a game show in 2027.

Okay. I'm putting that into the world. That's beautiful. It's your emerald year. It is my emerald year. I will host a game show. Apparently on Saturday night, it was a karmic reversal not seen since 1778 for us. That's what that happened on Saturday night.

Saturday night. So, and now Ryan Gosling is Ghostwriter. But it was a karma, but I was going to say, like, but I was having a good year. I, well. So is it being reversed down? I don't know whether it's being, let me make sure that carmic reversal is exactly what it was. That sounds terrible. I agree.

I mean, I don't want everything changed, you know? I just wanted, like, bam, take it to the next level. Emerald style. Bam, Emerald Lagassee? That's a very hip reference. Bam. My Instagram's not loading right now. How many bams would you give the following films we'll discuss?

I'm going to bring that up again. Okay. Are you ready to pivot to the films we're going to cover? Yeah, I can't find the karmic reversal thing. Instagram isn't loading. Probably because I didn't enable AI and now it's broken. I originally put together a list of films that we were not covering in this episode that were all streaming movies in a snarky attempt to be like we're not covering

this stuff. But truthfully, I don't really have anything against them. But in Ola Homes 3, I haven't seen it. Probably one of the most... I did see a little bit of the press tour. I think that was a Nola Holmes 3. It might have been another Billy Bobby Brown situation. Yeah, but there was some other young man I didn't recognize.

Funny press tour. Was it Hunter Biden? Yes. Imagine Millie Biden. That would be a good movie. That I would cover. Yeah. Tube would want that.

Are you familiar with Heart Stopper Forever? No. Amazon streaming film. Okay. I think Heartstopper was a... series. That's correct. Film extension of the series.

Did you watch or read the series? I did not. I've heard good things, but I've never seen it. It's very popular on Letterbox, for example, right now. These movies are being movies that are much seen, but we're not, we haven't seen them. Descendants, Wicked Wonderland. Are you up on that? Have you seen any of the Descendants films?

Not the Alexander Payne George Clooney film? No, these are not sequels. Okay. These are spin-offs? Inspired by? Pre-teen Disney films This is the fourth film Gratefully

My daughter has not discovered these movies I have not seen this one Yeah You know I wanted to cover Avatar Ang the last Airbender But I didn't have time to watch it This movie which I think was originally meant to be a theatrical release

Paramount sent straight to streaming This is a follow-up to the Avatar The Last Airbender TV series And I'm very popular anime TV series I think has been covered On the Ring orverse in the past Didn't hear much word about this movie Over the weekend

Well let me tell you the Burbank Town Center 6 was sold out every day. Well, it's the only movie theater, I think, in America that is running the movie. Oh, that makes sense. Because I was looking yesterday, every other movie had anywhere from two to four screenings, and this movie had, I think, at least 18. Yeah, it was every 20 or 30 minutes, right? I thought about going to the movie theater to see it.

They did that for Oscar qualifying consideration for Best Animated Feature. Okay. I haven't seen Rose of Nevada yet, and I feel shame about it. I haven't either. I also want to. It was playing at TIF while we were there, but we didn't have time to go see it. I know. And then I, you know, was playing Schedule Tetris and just couldn't get anywhere in L.A.

So Rosa Nevada is the new film from a British filmmaker named Mark Jenkins who's made a couple of movies in the similar style of the one that he made this one. But this one stars Callan Turner and Harris Dickinson. And is supposedly quite good. Is it Harris Dickinson or George Mackay? George Mackay. Excuse me. Yeah. It's okay.

Easy to confuse those British men to me. The kidnapping of Arabella? Yeah, Carolina Cavalli's new film. So it was in Orozonte last year at Venice, but I missed it. And then it's like two theaters here, and I couldn't figure out how to get there. Spotify deleted all our emails like six months ago so I don't have the emails of the distributor. I love her original film, Amanda, or her last film, which not just because it's about me. And I really want to see this one, but I didn't make it.

I think it's a oscilloscope is the studio. Yes, okay. So I can hook you up with that contact. And then Rosebush Pruning, new film that stars our friend Tracy Letts, among many other people. Elle Fanning is in it, I know. I think also Callum Turner once again. Callum Turner is in it. Jamie Bell is in it.

And played Berlin earlier this year. And I guess opened on one screen in New York. And I don't know if it has plans to expand L.A. I got a few texts from friends like, hey, did you see Tracy's movie? Over the weekend, and I was like, that movie is not available in Los Angeles. So none of those movies will be discussed here. Maybe we'll hit them at some point down the line. Let's talk about what we did miss.

Okay. What we missed but then caught up on. We have since seen these films that we will discuss here. The first film, did you see this film? I did. Okay. I took my son in the afternoon to go see Moana, the live action film still sawing Dwayne the Rock Johnson. Right.

So Thomas Kale directed this movie. He is perhaps best known as the director of the Hamilton musical on stage, Broadway director, has done some work in film and television as well. And I mentioned this briefly when I took my daughter to see it. This was going to be one of the biggest movies of the summer. This is one of the most iconic Disney features of the last 25 years. Yeah. What did you think? This sucked.

Yeah, it's very bad. This was very, very grim. And I don't mean that the musical or the songs or, you know, the spirit of the ocean and Tefeiti and everything, you know, should have been honored. I just absolutely DOA. And you can kind of tell from the moment, like, consider the coconut had some sort of musical Tommy Kale flourishes. And I was like, okay, I get it, you know. And then like even really, really bad CG. and also slowing it down to 0.5 speed is not going to take away, you're welcome.

Like, you're welcome. And when The Rock shows up, for a moment, you're excited. But then it descends into true CGI hell, the likes of which I have not seen since the last time I saw a Marvel movie. So I just, I couldn't believe how bad it looked. And of course, it has to because it's a fantastical story about the ocean and all these ocean creatures that don't exist. and it was originally told in animation.

Now they're trying to quote unquote make it real, but it's not real. And it's pointless and it's poorly done. And I left wondering how much money Thomas Kale really needs. I don't know. I'm sure he got paid well. I think it's really more like, why did this movie need to be made at this time?

I mean, obviously it was being made also for money. The original Moana is fantastic. The Moana 2 is not very good. I found a couple things to like about it, but it's obviously missing when Manuel Miranda's son. which is part of what makes the original such a special movie. I found this really, really depressing. There's this great anecdote in that Odyssey Making of that's on Peacock

about the moment when Odysseus and his crew are sailing and we see two dolphins swimming alongside his ship. Do you remember that sequence from the Odyssey? And in that making of, they talk about the fact that that's not CGI. That actually happened. Those dolphins were actually swimming alongside the boat, and they just happened to capture that moment, which is such a breathtaking moment,

to the point where I was like, oh, wow, they decided to put CGI dolphins in because it seems so unbelievable. And, you know, making The Odyssey was obviously very, very, very, very, very difficult. And it's paying incredible rewards. And Moana, which looks like it was shot on a soundstage in a tank, and the coloring is awful, and its translation of the story is, as you say,

slowed down and drawn out and belableness, and I felt this way, but every Disney live action remake, I'm like, you just cannot justify these movies being 30 to 45 minutes longer than the originals that all of the Disney classics are these like perfect 91-minute, you know, majestic pieces of storytelling. And the economy of those stories

is so crucial to them working the way that they do for young children. Why are these movies an hour and 52 minutes? It makes no sense. And it was a disaster because I took Knox after camp. And so that meant that we didn't get out of the movie theater until close to seven, which just then there was just an absolute meltdown in the lobby about getting popcorn or a little minions button or something. You know, he just wants to like, you know, smash and grab every single thing on the way out. And I can't let him.

So I just, I needed it to be shorter for bedtime enforcement. Did you read Nicole Spurling's piece about the $100 million industry of popcorn buckets in the New York Times? I saw the stats. And I also now live with a popcorn bucket because. Because our friend Mark Anthony came with us to see Totoro and took Knox to concessions. And then Knox came back with the Grogu Bucket with popcorn. And then bunch of crunch poured into the popcorn, which was not something that Knox knew about. That's a ball knowers move, though.

No, it's... I'm not a popcorn person, but that's an elite way to elevate popcorn. It's really great. But, you know, I have been taking Knox to the movies. And sometimes he gets popcorn in a bag. as a treat. But, you know, we're trying to enforce the movie as the treat lifestyle. Then Uncle M.A.G. comes in and is just like, here, that's his job.

Nobody did anything wrong. Uncle spoil. Yeah. I've been there. But then you just sat through Moana, which, like, Knox didn't even care about, like, a tiny little bit. Yeah. And you come outside, and your four-year-old is just protesting for. Also, the Moana popcorn bucket was just Moana on the side of a bucket.

They didn't even try. You think that's bad because she's a woman. What's the issue? I think this movie is a real disappointment, and I really, it had me wondering what, why, what Disney's plan is for movies. Like, I really don't. You know, their live action strategy is one of the most depressing things

that's been happening in Hollywood for the last 10 years, and I really hope they find a way to pivot against this and, you know, invest in some original storytelling. Like, even as critical as we are of some of the animation stuff for Pixar, like, at least they're making hoppers and Gatos coming out next year, and Hext is coming out later this year. Like, they are doing it with the animation stuff. Gotto trailer was a big hit.

Yeah, that looks really good. Yeah, looks very charming. I really wish they would just apply that same ethic to the live action stuff. I'm with you, bud. Okay. Speaking of animation. It's time for you to discuss. You're in minions yellow.

Was that on purpose? No, but as soon as I walked in Lucas was like Minions Yellow. So the-good. Good shout. The boys in the booth both complimented the shirt and then Lucas knew exactly where I was going. I can't see it because I'm off the cliff now, but I'm sure it looks great. Minions and Monsters. Yes.

This is the, what is this? The seventh minions-related feature film that we've gotten, four despicable muse and three minions films. Pierre Cofin is back to direct and to voice some of the minions. The film follows the minions in 1920s Hollywood. I didn't realize they were over 100 years old as they searched for frightening creatures. No, no, no, no, no. Minions have been with us since the beginning of time.

Well, we're going to learn that more specifically in this feature. But you know, you have learned that as well. I don't remember. I'm not up on minions lore. Minions and Ghost Rider, those are my blind spots. Keep going. The minions are in 1920s Hollywood as they search for frightening creatures for their monster movie, partner with a green creature and must save the planet after unleashing monsters.

You saw this movie sometime ago. It did with, again, my four-year-old son and many adults. Thank you to everyone at Universal who invited us to an afternoon's greeting. said yes to a child coming and then he was the only child in the room. That's okay. You liked this movie? I was very charmed by it. And so was Knox.

And we liked it. I'm sorry, I like cinema, you know? Sure. So I don't know if you've heard, but this is a love letter to cinema. Yeah,

great. Amazing. First time anyone's ever done that. And also George Lucas. I mean, it is, as many people have pointed out, just Babylon with minions.

So I don't know what your problem is. You don't like joy and humor? No, my problem is not only minions. Okay. So that simple. If you take the minions out of the movie and just give me Babylon, I'm very interested. I think this is a franchise I just don't get.

Your explanation, your advocacy for these stories, I understand as like Three Stooges stand-ins. I get it. There's an art of physical comedy. Part of what's appealing to me about those Three Stooges is they're actually doing that stuff. It's not animation. So slapstick and animation, I don't think is very funny. I do also, like the comedy, like Minionese is very fun. to me and there is

comedy in the way that they are drawn. It makes me laugh. I don't know. You can't explain it, but it makes me laugh very much. Yeah, and then they just recreated Babylon, and they have like elaborate set pieces, but with a lot of minions. Yeah, the middle part of it is that.

The middle part of it is like a real homage to silent cinema into like a lot of Buster Keaton sequences and great train robbery and a lot of those moments that, like, you know, movie dorks are very clearly kind of pointing their finger at the screen and saying, I know what that is, I know what that is. It does kind of turn in the last 45 minutes into being like a big monster spectacle movie. And nobody loves monsters more than me.

I love monsters. I thought they were trying to make like three movies at the same time a little bit. And I felt a little unevenly paced. I don't want to get too pointy-headed about a minions movie. Okay. But it being full of stuff I like. They're invoking their love of cinema so you can too. They are.

I just, I was honestly just like a little bored by the like insanity that sometimes tips into it. When I'm watching these movies. I know you shouldn't have a stick up your ass about minions, but I kind of want these movies to be better. Okay. And I know this is the one that everybody thought was better. And I was like, is it really better, guys? Like, is this really? I don't know.

You also, like, wept openly about Toy Story 5. So it's, we just, we're passionate about different things. You're passionate about app updates and I'm passionate about Sinan. And that's not what I was, that's fine. That's not what I was passionate about. I mean, it's a real lady bird meat. They didn't understand it, you know? It wasn't an app updates.

update in Toy Story 5. It was a QR code. It was built into the toy. So he just activating a power that is part of the toy's sale. So you're passionate about QR codes. No, that's not what I wept about. I wept about the idea of a young girl struggling to make social connection in the world because everybody's looking at their screens and I feel that's very impactful. But then the screen grew a conscience and helped her make friends, so it was okay. It's about the kids and about their relationship to imagination. Right. And about parents who do not have any sort of safety guardrails and terms of online behavior. I mean, I don't support that, but I don't need what's on screen to reflect my own morality, you know? I can see beyond that. I don't either, and that's why I just enjoy

the pure cinema of minions crash in a train. As you would say, I'm happy for you. We had Knox and I had a great time. Does the lack of success of this movie, like, indicate anything to you? Like, did they try to just get to a little too high-minded for whatever the audience is for this movie? Is it possible that it's just kind of on the downside and expiring as a cultural product. I mean, I think it is that wave of we're on the back end of many of these franchises and people are familiar with them and people are growing up. And I think probably the Minions fans, except for me,

are not of an age where they're rushing to take their children to the theater to relive their fond memories. They're like 24. Yeah. They don't have kids. Yeah. And then also, I think that the timing of it because it was July 4th and that that became World Cup and everything out. That's true. So. I think Toy Story 5 being so big.

Two weeks after Toy Story 5 was a bit of a gambit. And two weeks before the Odyssey, which the Odyssey has just from, I'm surprised that Annie was able to find a theater that was playing Disclosure Day in Los Angeles because it really is very hard to find other movies because all of the theaters, rightfully so, are just maxing out the number of times you can see the Odyssey. Yeah, the box office gross on that movie actually went up overnight because Just like you said, they're kind of showing the movie at midnight all over the major cities in America. I give Knox a lot of credit, though, because as I was watching it, I was like, will little kids even, like, understand what's fully going on?

Well, Knox, much like the protagonist in Tenant, is not trying to understand and really feeling cinema right now. See also Sandlot, when Sean was asking me Knox's opinions of Sandlot, I was like, he didn't have any, except he was afraid of The Beast. But we're getting there But thank you for believing in him I believe in him too You know Alice Lemines and Monsters too And she felt like the blob

Was way too scary Irene the giant blob At the end of the film Which was unusual Because she doesn't usually get scared of things The only two scary things She's seen this year are Irene the blob Was she the orange blob?

Yeah And all the All the blasters in Mandelaary and Grogo Yeah I guess Knox just Is not paying attention I think Okay this concludes

It's the kid-related portion of our catch-up here. Did you see The Dink over the weekend? I sure did. Oh, interesting. Okay. So the Dink is a new Apple streaming comedy that's directed by Josh Greenbaum and stars a friend of the pod, Jake Johnson, produced by Ben Stiller. And I wanted to ask you before we talk about this movie, have you played pickleball?

I do not play pickleball because my mother is one of the pickleball 70-somethings portrayed. in this film. Oh, wow. My mother plays pickleball four times a week. So was this like watching marriage story for you? How was it? I was quite amused by it. Yeah.

Because everything, my mother plays pickleball four times a week. She has pickleball friends. They go on trips together. I think they have a book club now. Like my, it has been like a major outlet of her social life. Are the books about pickleball? No. But like she brings home books that like, I don't know where she finds these things.

Like the world is wild and people are reading some weird shit. Can you give us an example? I mean, it's sort of like self-published history that always has some sort of like questionable conservative tent. I personally feel that the pickleball friends have like broadened her horizons just from the bridge friends a little bit. But like just this is yeah, this is what I'm dealing with. So I appreciated the pickleball satire in this film. Yeah, I thought the movie was pretty uneven, but the pickleball stuff is very funny. It's using like pretty traditional sports comedy structure of like,

Down on his luck, former great, who has to find redemption by shifting his, you know, greatness from one sport to another. That sport is related. He's got an overbearing father who doesn't really believe in him. Played by Ed Harris. Yes. I think some of that stuff is fine. That's just like the covering. The stuff I really liked in the movie is the dynamic between him and Mary Steenberg.

Right. So my note is this actually should have been the graduate. I was really disappointed that it cucked out in the final third. Yeah. I would have actually, I mean, so in the graduate, how old is Mrs. Robinson? Is she meant to be like 41? Let's see. Right?

And Benjamin is like 21, 22? Yeah. And so you're meant to, because so is the daughter. The daughter's Eileen, right? No. What's her name? Yeah. I don't think it's, is it Eileen?

Elaine. Elaine, okay, yeah. My wife is Eileen. No, I know. And that's why, okay. So I guess she's also 20 something. Yeah. So then Mrs. Robinson, if Mrs. Robinson had her at 20, she could be like 45.

45. But so then in this movie, Jake Johnson's like 45 and Mary Seam Virgin's like 70. By the way, absolutely stunning for a 70-year-old woman. She's just so great. She's very funny in this movie. And like actually given like a real part. Like I feel like many women are not given like a real character. That's why I was like keep going, you know?

Like half the balls. If it was like a proper, not even a romance, because the movie I think is very smart about the dynamic between these two actors. But it keeps having to kind of circle back to its pickleball premise, you know, because that's how they met each other. And that's kind of what's going to get redemption for the Johnson character. I thought it was not bad. I thought it was a perfectly fine way to spend the evening. I chuckled while watching it. My husband came in and out and was like, oh, you know, he observed that the Jake Johnson voice is like so specific and familiar.

and even like that patter of comedy, he was like, I know exactly what you're watching just from listening to it. And I'm amused by it. There is a cameo, an extended cameo, really a supporting part by a former tennis star that I quite enjoyed. I mean, you should talk about it. Andy Rodic is in the mix. I thought he was pretty good.

He's really good and very funny. He was very funny. I've always been an Andy Rodic fan. Do you think he was the first call? Was he written into the script? Was it possible that it was Federer? Was it possible that it was someone else? Well, I mean, the stakes are that the Jake Johnson character is like he was on the rise,

but he was never at Wimbledon. And in fact, like the pivotal tennis match is like a tune-up for hard court season in the U.S. So I think you do need an American player. Like U.S.TA juniors or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And so then the list is sadly like very short. That's true. I guess who else could it even have been?

I mean, I guess Sampris, but he doesn't. really seem like he has a sense of, yeah, and he doesn't have a sense of humor. Oh, he's Pete Sampras now. Seeing his 50s? He's got to be. Probably. Jim Carrier? Could we have gotten him?

Michael Chang? Yeah, I mean, this is a short list. Sure, yeah. But I think, and I, Andy Rodick is, is Andy Rodick the last American to win a grand slam? Is that possible? It's 2003 U.S. Open. Manny Moore was in the stands, never forget. They were dating?

Yeah. And he climbs in the stands to make out with Manny Moore after he wins. But I did. You don't remember this. into the stands to make out with like run our test? Well, to kiss her. Yeah. After he, after he wins, the U.S. Open. I hope someone does that for me someday.

Probably not. You're off the cliff now. That's true. I know. I wouldn't even see them coming. Anyway, I enjoyed it. It was like, the jokes were sharper than they often are in a kind of made for streaming. Like everybody, like a paycheck fun rule.

I'm a huge Jake Johnson fan. I am too. Yeah, it's written by Sean Clemens, who hosts the holidays. would handbook podcast and it's very very very funny it's like literally one of the funniest podcast in the world um i last american man to what a grand slam by the way obviously like please excuse me right please excuse you uh i apple's movie strategy i'm like what i don't know what are they doing they doing morning show is in the matchbox trailer over the weekend with john sina that's going straight to streaming all these movies are going straight to streaming i don't understand

why they want to be making movies and TV shows. I'm glad that they funded some movies that I really like. Well, the TV show thing, I think, makes sense because they're having a lot of success. I mean, they're not, maybe not, they're certainly not as big as the major streamers, but they're, they were like, I think, second in Emmy nominations. Like, they're starting to really break through in that respect. It's very similar to the Netflix thing to me, where I'm like, do you need to be making original movies as pure streaming plays to make the business appealing to customers? I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out. I mean, I guess that's, The takeaway from Netflix is yes,

but I've always thought that Netflix was doing it in part to kind of like pull down its competitors around them to kind of chain. And also Netflix is rooted in movies as a history with their kind of blockbuster in the mail strategy going back. For Apple, if they're going to make six to ten real movies, I mean, Red Hour produced this movie. This is a real movie.

And then not put them in theaters. I don't really get it. I mean, if the entire business is just to put on their devices that they just then sell to you, then it makes sense to. skip theaters. But do most people know what the dink is? Like, it doesn't have a real marketing spend because it's not going into theaters.

Just showing up on your Apple TV. Yeah. I guess. I mean, you know. It seems like a weird thing. We've talked that's a million times, but I'm still flummoxed by it. I completely agree. I'm from the other side, I'm just like, well, you're just actually making the devices.

Why do you need to be, you know, mucking around in this? And it's not making you money. And I suspect it's fun to be connected to Hollywood. Sure. You know, and to make, you know, big projects with big stars. And you can and you have money. Yes. But this is an example of a thing where it's like,

You didn't have to do this if you don't want to, but I'm glad you did. But anyway, neither here nor there. Speaking of comedy, Gail Daughtry and the Celebrity Sex Pass. Yes. New movie from David Wayne. We've already heard from our friend Adam Neiman who absolutely adores this movie. And if he were here, he would advocate strongly for it. I won't be doing that today, but I was curious what you thought about it.

I was amused. I had a nice time. I saw this at Jack Sanders' favorite theater, the Burbank Town 6. That's correct. Is that the town center? Yes, Burbank Town Center 6. Town Center 6. The one that's not in the mall by the in and out.

There is a third one that is next to the dairy queen. There are three Burbank AMC movie theaters for those listening not in Los Angeles. So I saw it at this one on opening day. I want to say at noon on a Friday, which just the crowd at the Burbank Town Center on opening day for a David Wayne comedy matinee is quite powerful. Was it robust? Well, it was a very specific set of man over the age of 40. I speak on it. I think everyone else can fill in the blanks.

Okay. There was a lot of performative laughing. There was a lot of... How many of the men were virgins? I didn't check. I didn't ask. I sat on the aisle. I was really in and out on that one.

But I did chuckle. Like I didn't have a bad time. I didn't have a great time. I saw it a few months ago, and I really love David Wayne's movies. I was an allegiance of the state. I liked Stella on Comedy Central. I've enjoyed many of his movies. I definitely don't like them as much as Adam does.

This one didn't really hit for me. The premise of the movie is it stars Zoe Deutsch, John Slattery, Ken Marino. Ken Marino, an absolute icon to me. John Hamm. It's about a woman whose fiancé cashes in his celebrity sex pass when a real-life star stumbles into their lives. This part is very funny. Very funny.

And there is a lot of moments where you're like, oh, this is pretty funny. It's like it's clever at times, but it didn't really make me laugh. You know, if you look back at David Wayne's filmography, one of the stars of one of his movies is the sex passing question. So then Zoe Doich's character after she discovers that her fiancé. has cheated on her with this famous person goes off on a quest to conquer her sex pass. And it's like, you know, it's a road movie. Right. It's a team-up movie.

It's a team-up movie. It's a going to L.A. movie. Yeah, it's The Wizard of Oz. In a lot of ways, she keeps accumulating new people on her journey. I got it structurally. I just wish it was funnier. I just didn't think it was all that funny. And, you know, beyond that, like, David Wayne is obviously not Denisville Nouve.

Like, you're not going to get the greatest filmmaking in the world from him. So if the jokes don't hit, then I, you know, sadly I was not one of those men performatively guffawing in front of you in a movie theater. You know, the send-up of the AMC City Walk and the bubblegum shrimp was enough for it. There are a lot of very knowing, sort of, like, clever, ha-ha, you know, jokes from on high about Los Angeles. And they are both self-deprecating and a little bit holier than now. So I can understand if you don't think they are funny. I chuckled at some of them. I didn't think they were the funniest.

Let me ask you a question about celebrity sex passes. Yeah. Something you believe in? You know, we've never formally discussed it in my home. With a lawyer? Well, I don't, would you, would a lawyer would be involved? I mean, you know, there's no pre-up, so it's not like you're violating anything. I just shared that here.

Good to know. So I'm just like, like, what would the lawyer be enforcing? marriage contract? Yeah, an agreement. Sure. But it confirms when Zach sleeps with blank. Then I can't legally deforse him. But isn't California no fault state now?

So I can't anyway. Sure. Yeah, listen, you want to tango with me? What else could be in the agreement, I guess? That's the thing is let's add some provisos, you know? I don't, so no, it's never been discussed. And the funny thing is that all of the people who would be on my list are people that Zach has interacted with professionally, you know?

All of them. Not all of them, but most of them at this point, he's met. Why would that matter? Well, it's so it's funny because it's like, I'm never going to get the opportunity, but Zach would have the opportunity with my last list many times. And he's always very accurately, like, so I'd like you to know, I'm going to be interviewing Ben Affleck next week. And I'm just like, oh, okay. And he's like, you can't. And I don't, I never try to go.

Like, that's, as you know, that's not my style. Yeah. I'm not sure I know who his would be. I have some ideas. I mean, I have some ideas, too. You know, and then I guess if you're putting the list together, you got to think about, like, probability, right? And then also... Oh, the math.

Yeah. Well, just, like, is the opportunity going to present itself? Could I lock this down? And can you close the deal? Yeah. You know? So, like, I have some ideas. I know who he thinks is attractive.

And I, like, believe in Zach once he's in the room. Sure. But I don't know when, like, he and Fergie are going to cross pass, you know? Hopefully soon. That sounds very exciting. Yeah. I think it's actually a really good social construct. Yeah.

Like if you can make it happen, get in there, you know? Make it about you. Yeah. Eileen and I haven't discussed it. Okay. We've definitely tossed around some names that we enjoy. Yeah. I mean, I think that's normal.

Yeah. But we've never done like a locked in eye contact handshake deal, like just so you know in case this happens. Right. Yeah. I'm also, you know, a bit professionally compromised at this point. not sure that that's something that really makes a whole lot of sense for me. Oh, do you mean just... I've encountered a few people in my time now recently.

But maybe you could just have like movies are off the board. But there are many other types of famous people, you know? And so you're not like ethically compromised. Not to me. That's a good point. What's an example of that? I don't know. Any athletes, any...

I mean, you know, I know the ringer deals with athletes, but you don't know anymore, so it's fine. That's not true. recording Mets Corner later this afternoon. Which member of the New York Mets would I have a celebrity sex pass for? Jack, what do you think? Carson Benj? Carson Benj. I agree.

That's a good choice. He's a rising young star, a strapping young man. You know, swimsuit models. That sounds like it could be a lot of fun, right? If you can't counter the right one. Who's out there right now? I can't believe we've done like 10 minutes. This is just a good topic of conversation.

Swim suit models. I'm trying to think about who's a famous person that I have no experience like cover, you know, I've written about music. I cover sports. Yeah, but you're out of the game, so that would be fine. I've been out of the game for almost three decades. It's just that we're just having fun here on the show. Okay. Okay. Respectfully. I'm going to tell you about evil dead burn for a minute, okay? So I saw evil dead burn. We didn't cover it on the show. CR and I did not have a deranged conversation about a crazy horror movie. Um, I'm a big fan of the evil dead franchise. This is the, I guess this is the sixth Evil Dead movie that's now been made, the three.

original Sam Ramey movies, which were made in the 80s and early 90s, which are pivotal horror comedies. The original film was remade in 2013, and a few years ago we got Evil Dead Rise from the director Lee Cronin. This new movie, Evil Dead Burn is directed by Sebastian Vanichek, who is a French filmmaker who made Vermin. You know about this? No.

The crazy spider movie. Very upsetting spider movie. Very mean-spirited. I think it was called Infested here in the United States. And the new movie is extremely violent and upsetting. You saw a brief clip of it, I think, at Cinemacon, right? Where a zombie demon pushed a man onto an open dishwashing machine, and he fell onto a lot of cutlery. I did see that, yeah.

Which is a very impressive action sequence and gross horror sequence. And when I saw that, I was like, okay, so this guy's bringing this same. really nasty aesthetic to these movies, but hopefully he'll bring some of the what we like about the Evil Dead too. His movies are pretty funny. They're pretty elegantly and amusingly staged. And I don't know, the franchise is now just like getting meaner and

meaner, darker and darker, less funnier and less funnier through each one. So we kind of tanked relative to how the last couple did. And now I'm wondering like there's another Evil Dead movie coming next summer, I think, and it's already in the can. And I feel like the franchise is a little bit dead at the moment. So I don't know, I think this was a little bit of a weird choice And I don't know why they've pivoted so far I like really mean horror movies

I like when a movie is deranged and gross And but these in particular, like I don't know why this one needed to live So it's a it's a not recommend for me Yeah, I thought about going Because this was one of the movies that it was sort of Odyssey counter programming And more if a theater were playing four movies This would be one of them along with the Odyssey

but you were not high on it. And it's like a, you know, a zombie falling onto knives. Just not how I want to spend my time. There's some virtuastic filmmaking. It's just like it's also doing the thing where it's trying to tell the movie from their perspective of a woman who has experienced domestic violence. And her dead husband's whole family is sort of like bringing her into their home after the, after some time and kind of integrating her, but they despise her because they hold her responsible for her,

their son's death. And so it's just like really sullen and dark and not a fun summer horror movie. And it also, I think it's in really sharp relief to something like obsession, which is kind of like rollicking and kind of funny. And it feels like it's maybe from a slightly different era of horror movies. Okay. Let's talk about something you have seen. No, I didn't get to see her private hell.

That's why I was going to go to something you have seen. Oh, sorry. Okay. Yeah. Let's talk about I want your sex. Yeah. I'm very curious about how you feel about this. And if you care about Greg O'Rocki's movies at all, as I said, new movie, Olivia Wilde and Cooper Hoffman, it's about a young art world aspirant who joins a very famous gallerist and artist named Erica Tracy's Space.

And she very quickly draws him in as sort of like her sexual bottom, you know, her sub to her dom and she kind of controls him in a very non-progressive domineering fashion. Right. Sort of the flip side of Pillion in some ways. Olivia Wilde plays the artist. Cooper Hoffman plays the guy who works for her. Young cast, Mason Gooding from the screen movies, Chase Suey Wonders, Margaret Cho, DeVeed Diggs, Charlie XX is in this movie. Yes. What did you want?

Playing the, she's a med student and she's Cooper Hoffman's girlfriend, sort of, but hates him. Yes. Which I thought was sort of, what was funny. I mean, you know, the way that Gregor-R-R-R-R-R-E. Rocky makes movies about sex and what he will show and or even though like way he'll conceptualize it, you know, informed both of how we started watching movies and is very cool. And I like everyone involved. And I was even amused by some of the speeches that Olivia Wilde gave that were like your

generation, you know, doesn't know how to do anything. And you guys were such losers. No offense. But it did feel like that was the perspective of the movie. If that makes any sense. I talk to Greg about it. I feel like the reason to go to the movie is Olivia Wilde. Yeah.

Who's on like an incredible run right now. And she's really, really funny and really fearless in this part. And it's a very like sexually frank, revealing role. And Greg was saying that he was like, I am Olivia Wilde's character and I'm Cooper Hoffman's character. And so the movie has kind of like split me in half in a way. And that they're the sort of naivete and the sort of sensitivity and, you know, the faint to progressive. that Cooper Hoffman's character suggests versus, you know, the boldness of Olivia Wilde,

this sort of like un-piced seness of her character, is also him, which I thought was interesting and, like, actually made me understand and appreciate the movie more. It's very broad. Like his comedy is very screw-on, very broad. And so, like, if the jokes are working, it's very funny.

If they're not, it doesn't work as well. I liked some of the movie crazy stuff about it, like the Sunset Boulevard riff, framing device around it. I thought it was interesting. He hasn't made a movie in 12 years. and has been mostly working in television and directing a lot of series television. And I do feel like there's a whole generation of people

who like consumed his thing, his aesthetic. Learned about the world. Yeah. And it's like some of it is about the sexual frankness. Some of it is like the shoe gaze music that he's really into and just like the general alternative culture that he represents in the 90s that is obviously very important. But yeah, I liked it.

Okay. What should we talk about next? Do you want to do her private hell? Yeah, okay, let's do it. I tried to go see it, but it's only being shown after 7 p.m. here in Los Angeles. I'm sure that's not true, but I tried really hard, and I did note that all of the screenings were way too late for me to make it to. Yeah, I mean, it bombed this weekend. Yeah. This is Nicholas Winding Refund's new feature film, his return to feature filmmaking, much like Iraqi, after many years.

away. I guess the neon demon is his last movie, which is about 10 years ago. And he's been making streaming series ever since. I haven't had much cause to talk about Refn, but I love Reffin's movies. This new one star is Sophie Thatcher, Charles Milton, Havana, Rose Lou, and Diego Calva. And I saw it at Cannes. And I haven't seen it since Cannes. You saw it at 8.30 in the morning at Cannes. I would say 27% of the reason why I went to Cannes this year was to go see this movie. Yeah. Because I really like Reffen and I like the idea of him returning

to these kinds of movies. The movie is about a troubled young woman who is searching for her father as a mysterious mist engulfs a futuristic metropolis unleashing a deadly and elusive entity.

Never want those. You don't want that. Her quest collides with an American GI who's on a harrowing odyssey to rescue his daughter from hell. Like you do. Yeah.

On trend. Yeah. He... I mean, we did a whole podcast in Cannes about the movies we'd seen, and you did not even mention that you had seen this movie. You completely forgot. That's how inconsequential and also not good, you thought that it was. Yeah, it actually, it reminds me of minions and monsters in this way,

which is that it's constantly gesturing towards things. So it indicates to you, this is like a Jallo movie, you know, this is. is like a lynchian nightmare film. This is like a sort of like post-Russ-Meyer, like sexual fantasia with all these women living in this apartment building. There's like all of these clear earmarks. And I think that it had come to Refen from like a very honest place. He was basically like, I had a dream and I wrote down my dream and that's what this movie

became. It's turgid, turgidly paste, slow, dull, beautifully designed. All the performance styles are this kind of. of like monotone, you know, slow motion motorcycle, Fantasia. Yeah. Everyone looks great. Yeah, everyone. It's a beautiful collection of young stars.

Yeah. Havana Rose Lou giving a pretty funny performance as like a Sophie Thatcher's friend who becomes her stepmom when she marries her dad. Okay. And so they have a very catty dynamic. Charles Milton looks immaculate as the GI who's looking for his daughter and beating the shit out of people. doing a little bit of Only God forgives.

But the movie just, it kind of feels like it's taking place like on a cloud. And I don't mean that in a good way. Like if there's something kind of like light and airy and wet about it that I just, I really thought it was not interesting. And I was so disappointed. And I felt let down. When you look at a cloud, do you think about the moisture contained within? I'm not sure that I do. What do you think about a fluffiness?

I mean, there is. Just like Science Corner. there is moisture in there. Yeah. But no, I think about the fluffiness. I don't know what to think about, Ruffin. It's disappointing. You know, it seems like there is a contingent of the I will never give in on this people who are like, actually here's what he's accomplishing here.

This is how an elevation of his style. And I'm like, and I would love to get on that journey. I love being a person who is like, you don't see the eighth tier, the nine-dimensional chess that might. beloved otor is playing like I would love to do that as an advocate for an artist's work and it's not in this movie yeah you do that for many other people so that's okay I did the highlight of my can was in many ways when I was walking um on the quazette I was walking into a just a press screening also at the palais and someone walking into the Lumiere for the evening premiere of like the the gala premiere of her private hell, and she was in a full dress, spotted me, like, yelled,

and I got to say hello to like a true big piccicco who was going to her private hell premiere in Cannes. She was so excited. She sent me her review afterwards. And she was like, because she was there in the moment in that premiere magic, she was like, you know, but also I really enjoyed it. And if you like go with the mood. And I was really proud of her. And I was proud of the big picture that people were trying to make it happen and make the most

of their experience still did not incentivize me to get up and go to that press screening with you. Yeah, you made a good choice. It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't, it's not a good film. That's when I went to see Club Kid, so. Well, that's a good film. We'll talk about that later this year. I, to me, I'm not desperate for him to go back and make drive all over again. That's not what I want from him. I would love to see an elevation. I liked Copenhagen Cowboy, his last streaming TV series on Netflix. This just felt like a dead idea that he tried to conjure it into something meaningful. and I couldn't get on the other side of it for whatever reason.

Speaking of the dead, you saw Young Washington? I sure did. Did you not? No. Okay. So this is the latest Angel Studios production. And you're the chief creative officer at that studio. I am. But so hold on.

I'm taking out my no-sap of things that I wrote down about this movie and specifically during the trailers. So are you aware that all Angel movies, now start with a like a welcome card that says this film is approved by Angel Guild and then something like a growing like 2 million members and growing or something. Angel

Guild. Yes. And so I'm afraid by purchasing a ticket and expensing it to the Spotify Corporation that now I'm a member of the Angel Guild though I'm hoping that by the transitive property it's Spotify and not me. Better than the devil guilt. I guess that's true. So that's what's going on.

And also, the trailers for this movie were... Can I guess? Yeah. Hershey? Which one's that? That's the biopic of the founders of the Hershey Chocolate Company? No. What?

That's an angel film that's coming out later this year. Maybe I didn't write that one down. Finn Whitrock stars as Jim Hershey or whatever his name is? Maybe I also got there. Augustus Hershey? Maybe that was the first one. Keep going because there are three other ones. That's my only guess.

Supergirl? No. So the Jeff Daniels, Jared Harris, Reagan Gorbachev movie. Oh yeah, I will watch that. Sure. I mean, yeah, me too, obviously. A Revolutionary War movie with one of the hot guys. Oh, who's the hot guy from Game of Thrones,

the older man? He has like Ian is his name. Team Glenn? Yeah, and he gets the weird disease in Game of Thrones and they just ruined a good thing. Yes, so he's like the leader of the militia or whatever's happening in what I think was a Revolutionary War era movie called

the drummer boy and it is about the drummer for the militia and and they honestly and the whole movie is set to like a radio head creep girl's choir version of the drummer of the trailer that is and it leads up to this climactic moment of like will this drummer boy be able to like drum enough that whoever these people are will fight for the freedom of whatever and then there was one that look that appeared to be a movie about a kid who has some sort of terminal illness and and And a songwriter who is doing some make-a-wish type stuff, but is also obviously, like, struggling with addiction. And, you know, so is he going to, like, find the light? I assume the light is God, but I didn't see the movie, just the trailer. Okay. And also adds for the U.S. Navy. So that was quite an experience before you start Young Washington, which is a movie set in 1955. It specifies in the Pennsylvania wilderness to which I say.

I assume you mean 17. 1755. Yeah, 1755. Sorry. Free Revolutionary War. This is about Young Washington because he's a zombie. Honestly, it would be better and also in some ways he is. Okay. 1755. It specifies that it's in the Pennsylvania wilderness, to which I say where isn't the wilderness in Pennsylvania. And... Damn. Shots fired at LeBron James. Then I can't believe that that is happening. Because I- Buckle up. You got 100 Sixers games to watch next season.

Enjoy. I mean... Oh, he's sitting on the Larry O'Brien Trophy. I was doing like one of my sad home workouts by myself when Zach came in. And there's usually a do not

interrupt my workout routine. But he came in and he said, I just need to interrupt this workout to let you know that LeBron James is a 76er and then close the door again. And it's like,

I just have to live with all the pain that is coming my way. I will say that Shiel Capadia's daughter doing the I can't believe this is my life meme is the only

good Sixers content and I accept that and I support the young listeners of Philly Special anyway young Washington not actually

in Philadelphia he's closer to Ohio and it's a battle for Ohio between the British and the French and so yeah French and Indian

War Young Washington this is Young George Washington and I guess he's supposed to be hot Washington, but I wouldn't say that the casting gives like a lot of charisma. William Franklin Miller is the actor. And he really wants to defend his family's land and also like be a part of the King's militia.

He wants to fight for the UK. And they kind of use him for a while. And then ultimately, you know, he, I don't remember. I mean, they win because Ohio. is the United States. But it's very boring, and it's mostly about how young Washington didn't want to be a rebel. And he didn't want to have to overthrow the system. But, you know, sometimes a man's got to do what a man has to do, which is a cool lesson.

I'm seeing here that Mary Louise Parker, Kelsey Grammer, Andy Circus, and Ben Kingsley are in this film. Yeah. Interesting. Mary Louise Parker is his mom. Okay. And... And... Yeah, and...

And Kelsey Grammer is, I think, like, his rich uncle. And it's tough. It was quite poor. Well, let me tell you something. And then basically there are battle sequences that are sort of reenactments. And I guess if you like cannons and such, get in the mix. There are some horses. I think the horses were real.

I hope so. I think they were not CGI horses. This movie is a hit. I know. There were more people at this afternoon screening than at any other I've ever seen at Regal Paseo. You think this is a reflection of your lack of love for America in the American contract? Well, this is really about a contract between other people, you know?

And yes, I do. I think that it, I would not say that it portrays the Native Americans particularly, appropriately. That's not shocking to hear. So. Is this, where, where does this stand in terms of the highest grossing Angel Studios films? It's got to be number three, I think. But I will say, like.

you can feel the conservative underpinnings and the, you know, the retelling of history to set like a certain view of America, but it isn't also like so overtly political or religious or, you know, dogmatic in a way that I think some of the Angel Studios releases are. So it had a dad history vibe. It just seemed like there were like a lot of dad history guys in the room. Yeah. I'm not opposed to a movie like that. Yeah, so it's not, it was boring, and I didn't think that it, like, I just, I thought it was pretty boring. I have to be honest. Like, none of these performances are extremely exciting, and it didn't reveal anything to me about Young Washington, except, you know, sometimes you can't follow the rules, even though you wanted to, because it's important to own the land.

Whatever. Will you be teaching your sons about the cherry tree? So, they, he gets really mad, and he's chopping down a tree that you assume is that you assume is, the cherry tree, but they never say cherry tree. And then Mary Louise Parker comes over and says, stop, you have to find a different way to express your anger or something like that. Is that the phrase that she uses? No, that was Monastery mom.

You know? That's not. I don't think that's historically accurate. I don't know how much of this was historically accurate either. You know, George, please take a deep breath. You're submerged underwater. Everything is going to be all right. Yeah.

Your trauma can be evacuated. Now streaming on Disney Plus. The Hulu original series Furious follows FBI. agent Alice Black, played by Emmy Rossum, on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. New episodes week over week, watch the Hulu original series Furious, now streaming only on Hulu on Disney Plus. When Westcham first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different.

People thought denim on denim was peak fashion. Inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to Westjetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. Okay. Let me tell you about Motor City. Okay. I saw it on Friday.

Similar fashion of the way that you saw Gail Daughtry by myself with four other people. Okay. Do you know anything about this movie? Do you know the gimmick of this movie? I know that it's Jack Reacher, Alan Richson. It's Alan Richardson. So Ponsi-Pon-Soroli is the director. He made a movie a few years ago starring,

oh my goodness, what is the actor's name from A Brother Where Art Thou? Not John Terturo and not George Clooney, but a terrific character actor. His name escapes me. Anyhow, he made a movie called Old Henry, starring that actor. Tim Blake Nelson? Tim Blake Nelson. Thank you very much. really, really good movie that actually just shot up to the top of the Netflix charts last week,

because not a lot of people had seen it. It's a Western about an older man who has kind of gone into hiding and some some ruffians return to claim something, and he has to kind of like fight back against them. Very clever movie, very, very well made. So Potsie's new movie is this film that has been a blacklist script for a long time, and the premise of the movie is that it's almost entirely dialogue-free.

And so it's set in Detroit in 1977. It's like a classic crime, revenge story about a hulking man who falls in love with a young woman who's played by Shailene Woodley in the film. Alan Richardson plays the guy. And they're starting a life together. And then we see in flashback

that, in fact, Alan Ritchin's character has taken Shailene Woodley from her ex-boyfriend, who is a very abusive man who's played by Ben Foster, the great Ben Foster. And the movie plays out largely with 70s needle drops

and a lot of kind of fully sound effects and less than 10 lines of dialogue. So it is lots of slow motion action at times very beautiful and painterly, at times kind of agonizing to sit through with this lack of narrative and dialogue propulsion. All the actors look good. It's coherent.

You can follow the story very easily. some of the music is really good. There's a couple of needle drops that are like, wow, how did you afford this? Like a Fleetwood Mac song plays a very prominent role in the middle of this movie. It is co-produced by Third Man, which is Jack White's record label and production company

and, you know, set in Detroit. And there is a little bit of like when you're listening to a dumb but amazing White Stripe song where you're just like, this is just sick, dude. But like, you can't really get beyond that in terms of analysis. Right. It's just like these power chords are really hitting hard right now.

And I really, really wanted to like it, because I really want there to be like some formal, some form breaking in mainstream style movies. Like, this is a bit of a risk to do a movie like this. It doesn't ultimately hang together all that well, and some of it is a little preposterous as you're going through it. It's extremely violent, very, like as violent as a John Wick movie. Like, there's this long sequence where you watch Richson and his two buddies. filling shotgun shells with like pennies and nickels so that there's a more explosive range on the shotguns that is more damaging to people.

It's a couple of good car chases in the movie. I don't know. It's one of those things where like I'll root for this because it's just a little bit different, more so than I will something that is a, you know, it's not the most narratively enlightened movie, but the filmmaking is pretty good. There are moments where you can feel

yourself kind of like bopping along to it because of the way that the music is used. Had me thinking about what a weird turn Shailene Woodley's career has taken, where she's just like... Very strange. The heroin addicted dame in this silent film, basically. Like, it's a real, like, nothing part. It's a real nothing part for all the characters, obviously. They're meant to be archetypal. They're not meant to be, like, real people.

But Ben Foster's doing a lot because he's such a gestural actor. And with a mustache and, like, a glass in his hand and a cigar, like, he can do a lot as a performer. He's such a gifted actor. and he can play those kind of like big chords, big notes. But Shailene Woodley, we just talked about the descendants last week. I'm like, what happened? It's very strange. I mean, big little lies happened.

Yeah, and then... Huge show. But she doesn't... She's not one of the fun moms. No. And then it feels like she just took a bunch of different parts that didn't quite work. Remember the movie she made with Jody Foster? Where is Jody Foster the translator?

There are a number of things where you're like on paper, nothing here is offensive. Uh-huh. The Mauritanian. Yes. Yeah. And but just nothing hits and nothing hits and nothing hits. She did it Aaron Rogers for a little. So that answers.

You know, that has questions and no answers. But she was the wife in Ferrari. She was the wife in dumb money. She's the wife in Motor City. Like she's just kind of been cast into that part. I mean, how old is she? She can't even be 40 yet. No, she's 34.

Yeah, she just turned 35. I mean, that's, that's, it's weird. So I felt bad about that. Okay. What's next? Anything else that you've seen here that you want to get into? Well, I saw voicemails for Isabel. I did as well.

We must talk about this. Well, let's talk about it. Okay. It's on the Netflix streaming service right now. Yeah. This is our second Zoe Deutsch film. Yes. Directed and written by Leah McKendrick.

And this is kind of the biggest Netflix rom-com entry of the summer, I would say. And it stars Zoe Joych, Nick Robinson. I've loved Simon fame among others. Yes. And Lucas Gage, who was also in people we meet on vacation, right? Which was the Netflix rom-com of the winter. Of the winter.

Yeah. So did you know the premise of this going in? Did not. I didn't either. So Zoe Deutsch plays a young woman who has a young sister who is ill with cystic fibrosis. And so the first 20 to 30 minutes of the movie are about their sisterly bond and being sisters. And it's like an illness movie, right? And then, spoiler alert, I guess, but it's in the beginning of the movie, her sister does die. So I thought

I was watching a rom-com. And then I was watching like a very sad and, you know, movingly, but still somewhat broad, Talmark-esque, like, you know, we are sad things happen. Just very Angel Studios vibe. And then she dies. And so Zoe Dewech's character

can't let go and or can't like, she's grieving. That's, that's rude to say. It's very soon afterwards. So she keeps calling to leave her sister

voicemails. And then the other guy gets a new phone at work and he receives the voicemails. And the minute you see his new phone, you're just like, oh, no, I can't believe that this is what you're doing. And then that's just what they do for 90 minutes. Well, I mean, specifically what happens is that he falls in love with her by listening to her.

That's what you know. As soon as you see the voicemail, you're like, oh, no. You see the phone and you're like, oh, he's going to get the voicemails and fall in love with her. And then they're going to meet and then he won't tell her. And then they'll fall out. and then they like will get back together. You can see the, you know, the beats of the whole thing. Agreed.

Which is not always bad. Again, like, Enri's genre has its formula and it's what you do with it. But there's something about it being so obvious and so just like, oh, no, he's going to get the phone all at once. The part when they broke up, I was like, let's just end the movie. Yeah. You know, like, I know exactly what's going to happen. It's fine. Like, it's totally fine.

Like, I, it's not, this movie isn't bad. This is, this is, it's kind of similar to people we meet on vacation where I'm like, I get why these movies are really working for Netflix. Yeah. You know, there is a lane for this kind of movie. So Zoe Deutsch and Nick Robinson are both pretty good. Pretty charming. And, um, and they have chemistry. Yeah.

They have chemistry. And she gets a bit wide berth to be very, this is a pretty zany lead character. Yeah. She's a chef. She's working underneath. Well, right. But so, so they together and even some of the jokes and some of the, the, the way that. that she talks to him and like the voicemails themselves are funny and they have a vibe.

This feels very, this whole movie feels very like TikTokified to me where they're her subplot. She's a chef and she's a chef in Nick Offerman's kitchen. And so they're doing bear send up and she's doing lots of, she makes, you know, another friend in the kitchen but doesn't. And it's like, it just feels very like, what's the trendy job right now? What's the thing that we kind of do? It's like, you know, an aspiring chef. And then when she actually makes her dreams come true with her dead sister's college fund, it's to open a dessert nacho truck in Austin.

Yeah. I had some issues with that. I'm telling you what, I'm intrigued by the premise. Dessert nachos? Not familiar with them? Didn't know that was a thing. I would eat a dessert nacho. I mean, it's not that I would not eat a dessert nacho.

And to your point about this character is like whimsical or whatever. She's a bit of a goof. Yeah, she doesn't open, you know, like a taco stand. But also there's a whole premise because she allegedly lives in San Francisco. That's where the Nick Offerman restaurant is. Even though her view of the Golden Gate Bridge is a bridge, is a CGI bridge. Yeah. Which also happened in the Netflix.

The Reese Witherspoon. Ashton Coocher rom-com directed by Aline Brush McKenna where he moves to Brooklyn and is supposed to live in Dumbo and have the Brooklyn Bridge behind him. And it's just like a poster. Yeah. What's that movie called? My place are yours? Your place are mine? Yeah.

Anyway. So she lives in San Francisco and they bond over how there aren't good breakfast tacos in San Francisco. But she won't make a breakfast taco truck. Instead, she has to do dessert nachos? Why does it have to be so quirky and stupid? Well, it's because in the, I'm glad we're getting into the plot of this. In her final moments in the kitchen in the film, where she loses a competition to be elevated to become a baker. Right.

She does land on sort of like a formula, an inspiration point for the kind of food that she wants to make, which is maybe more sweet than savory. Right. And so she leans into that sweetness to long. I got to be honest, the dessert nachos was my number one takeaway from the movie. I was like, I am interested. Like, I, that really is there? I was so, I was, this was such like bullshit. Can't you see like a cute girl on Instagram being like,

got home from a long day working and here I just threw together some dessert nachos or some things in my. That's your anxiety about living in that influencer culture. Me as a man who likes nachos and likes dessert. No. Let me try it. No. Also, they're like $14 for like Ubi. This is not a business model.

She's parked somewhere in Austin. I mean, I guess she. can't make breakfast tacos if she's moving back to Austin because that is a very established community. Yeah, then you're battling Vera Cruz. You don't want to battle Vera Cruz. But she's parked in the wrong place with her dessert truck in Austin, making

these weird nachos. I don't, it doesn't, I don't think that that truck is going to be there in a couple years. Interesting thing here. This movie was produced by Sony and it has a little bit of the K-pop Demon Hunters thing where I'm like, this is more of a real movie than some of these other movies that I've seen like it. And I think people we meet on vacation

was the same way. I think it was, from the Sony partnership that the studios have, which is really interesting, and I'm curious how long this goes on, because obviously Sony being able to license their movies to Netflix is very beneficial for both parties. Netflix pays a lot of money for those movies. These movies that are made, and they're like,

it almost feels like the coin is in the air until they finish the movie on deciding where it's going to live and whether or not it's going to be theatrical or not. I know that's almost certainly not the case, but I do feel like a lot of films that we end up talking, about in these episodes or in that kind of nether zone where like a lot of people saw this. They never thought about it again, but that doesn't mean it was unsuccessful. Right.

You know, like, Aline and I watched this together and we were like, not bad. You know, like, not good, but definitely not bad. And I'm glad that we got to sit here together and she had a cocktail and I had a glass of wine and everything went great. And then we went to the next day in our lives, you know, and then I went over the cliff. And then that was that. Not against it. Zoe Deutsch, I still don't know. Never been offended by her performance.

I think she's actually taking some interesting risks in the 2020s. A lot of those risks are forgotten because of COVID, but she made some funky movies in the early 2020s. You know, obviously everybody wants them. Love her forever. Set it up. Set it up, an all-time classic based on the ringer on Greenland. Yeah, like from 10 years ago.

She actually, I had a conversation on the Anklor pod this morning with Sean McNulty about this. He asked me about Alan Richardson. and he was like, why is an Alan Richardson a movie star? He's on Reacher. It's one of the biggest streaming shows in the world. The third season, he told me the third season of Reacher is the, like, the second highest rated third season of any show in the last 10 years.

That's a crazy stat. But if you look at the movies he's made, like he was in War Machine earlier this year on Netflix, which is a huge movie on Netflix. We never even talked about it on this show. He's going to be in a movie later this year for Amazon with Arnold Schwarzenegger. I think Man with a Bag.

It's like a holiday Christmas movie. And we were talking about how there's like a strain of streaming movie stars, and I thought this could be an episode for us where I'm like, Jennifer Lopez is just a streaming movie star now. That's all she does. Zoe Deutsch is a streaming movie star. This is what she does. She's probably not going to top line a theatrically

released studio movie for the rest of her career. She's probably not going to be the first name on the poster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. What was the young woman's name who was in people we meet on vacation? Emily Bader. Thank you. Emily Bader. She's probably at an interesting pivot point here where she's got to figure out. Do I want to lean into... Isn't she doing... And isn't what she's

doing the 13 ongoing 13 going on 30 reboot? She is, but she's also doing the movie about Mia Hamm, the female soccer player as well, but that's a Netflix film. I think that's her next film. Yeah. So... And this 13 going on 30 reboot is also a Netflix movie. Is it? Okay. And so this is, and obviously Millie Bobby Brown is an example of this. There is now

a real true contingent of people. I would argue that people like John Cena, he's a streaming movie star to me. He's been in the Fast and the Furious movies, but if you look at the films he's been making in the last few years, like we just saw the trailer for Matchbox, the Apple movie, that's a streaming movie. This is a new anthropological thing that we have in movie culture. And some people are really good at it and they're thriving in it. Like, I'm not going to take anything away from J-Lo. She's going to make the same kind of movie for the next 10 years and they're all going to work.

Yeah, sort of. I mean, Office Romance sort of worked. I just, you can see where the corners are being cut. And you can also see that in plenty of theatrical movies. at this point because it's these these types of movies, romantic comedies in particular, are not going to be billion-dollar movies and thus you can't invest as much in them. But I don't know. Like, I think that all of them, you can feel the corners being cut.

And I do feel in the situations and the setups, they have become a little more, I mean, maybe it's just that they're younger, honestly, and we're old and we are both off the cliff emotionally, if not literally. But all of the ways in which they are trying to change. check the box of this will fit on Netflix and also, you know, be clipped out on TikTok and be useful on Instagram and this has to do with this meme and this has to do with just the actual way that they are constructed and the types of stories and how everything gets meshed together and that this is, you know, as much like a terminal illness movie as it is a romantic comedy.

Yeah. But then also has a weird subplot about an online podcaster that we didn't even talk about. That's right. Which it just They It's kind of like the male Alex Cooper Yeah Yeah I guess so

But they just all feel A little Not slicker But But less, you know I'm not making like a qualitative Statement of Appreciation for them But I do think that it is an evolution

Of what movies are You know that a lot of people Only watch movies like this Like if you're a parent Totally And you've got young kids And movies are not the center of your life you're more likely to watch something like this than anything else.

And that is just like an interesting, maybe it is something I'll write about to kind of explore it more. But I do think that when Sean was asking me about that this morning, I was like, oh yeah, Alan Richardson's probably not going to be, he's not going to be Arnold Schwarzenegger. Setting aside that we don't even really want like muscle men as our leading men anymore, like Sina and Mamoa and all those guys, they're not at the top of the pecking order in terms of movie stars.

It's like Pattinson and Gosling and Tom Holland, like a lot of pretty boys. It's not, that's the flavor of the month in terms of what a movie star is to us. But I find it interesting that there is a whole other wing that maybe we wouldn't even adequately recognize on something like 35 under or over

on the movie stars list. Right, right. Because it is, I mean, it is the merging of, into TV movies almost and that what used to be kind of like the hallmark or just, or like made TV for TV. That was a genre that we had.

And now that everything is on streaming and streaming his movies and movies are TV and it all just kind of gets mushed together. I agree with you that it's a separate category. I just, you know, Jay Lois was an actually good movies once upon a time. She was. She was. Yeah, when I was a kid, the TV movie stars were like Shannon Tweed. Are you familiar Shannon Tweed? I remember Shannon Tweed.

Yeah, she was in a lot of erotic thrillers that were made cheaply and featured her removing her top. Just wanted to let you guys know about that. You know about Shannon Tweed, Jack? I'm unfamiliar. Okay. Look into it. I want to speak briefly about the samurai and the prisoner, which I saw before can, but is finally opening now

and is very much worth people's time. Kiyoshi Kurosawa, we talked about last year a bit with Adam Neiman on the show. His new film, a bit of a zag from him. Set in 16th century Japan. It follows a lord whose castle is besieged. He's in the middle of a violent conflict. He takes a prisoner during this conflict. And then the movie in four separate acts,

I think you would enjoy this, turns into kind of what's been described as like Colombo and Feudal Japan, where he has to solve mysteries and crimes within the walls of his castle. And the prisoner that he has taken is sort of like the Watson to his Sherlock Holmes. And really interesting movie

that takes a pretty hard turn in the third act and gets away from this classic mystery box construction. But I really liked. And I was a little bit surprised by it. it was not what I was expecting, you know, Kiyoshi Kurosawa makes like really dark, psychologically probing horror or horror adjacent stories like pulse.

And this was like a little bit more elegant, a little bit quieter, and then has one very shocking and exciting moment that I won't spoil for people. But if more people check this movie out, maybe we can talk about it more in depth a little further down the line. Did you skip sheep in the box?

Did we talk about this? I did because it's only playing in one theater. But you didn't see it. can. I didn't. Yeah. You specifically were like, no, go see something else. So I did. I can't recommend it. It's Coriated his new movie. Neon released it over the weekend. Very, very limited. I don't think very many people are going to see it. It's about a young couple who've lost a son who were replacing him with a sort of an AI Android bot. And this humanoid robot comes to show them things about their life in the world for better or for worse. And I thought

it was pretty much a fiasco. It sounds right up Amanda's Alley, too. It was really really bad, from a director whose work I've really liked over the years. And so I was really bummed about that. Did you see Late Fame? I did. Okay. You added this, right? Yeah, I added it.

It's not out till next week. Well, let's talk about it a little bit since we won't be together talking about new releases other than Spider-Man for like a month. Yeah. So this is directed by Kent Jones and then written by Sammy Birch, who wrote May December. Yep. And is an adaptation of a novel, but it stars Willem to Fo. and Greta Lee and others. And Willem DeFoe is a post office worker who in the late 70s wrote a collection of poems that a new young group of artists and thinkers in New York City discover.

And they make contact with him. And so it's him discovering a sort of success and fame later in life. And then Greta Lee is also there. I'm curious what you thought of this. I saw it. I, you know, when Willem Defoe is on the screen, I am never going to look away. And there is a little bit of a Whit Stillmanesque quality to the group and the portrayal of the group that I really enjoyed. I love Greta Leigh.

And at points I was like what this is completely miscast. And at other points, I was like, wow, I didn't know that Gretaly could do that. And I think also that this movie, which is, I would say, like, visually modest, you know, not ugly, but like not trying to do a lot. Does understand how to use her as like an incredibly beautiful person, almost as like a special effect. So I appreciated that. I mean, I was glad that I was glad I saw it. Yeah, I thought it was interesting. I thought it was not totally successful.

I had Kent on the show some years back for his last film, which I thought was very, very good. And he's an extraordinary film critic and long-time advocate for movies, and he's kind of shifted fully into making feature films. I think it's a movie that thinks it has like a slightly stronger trick than it has because we come to find out that the group of people who are supporting this lost poet are like kind of posers, you know, that they're not really these sophisticated, cultured men of letters, that they're kind of like, they're kind of clout chasing in a slightly more, a slightly more pretentious way, and that that's meant to reveal something about the inherent

nature of like cultural criticism and the idea of trying to recreate bygone eras and how none of those things can be recreated and how real were they in the first place? The stuff that it works best to me in the movie, by the way, the novel is written by Arthur Schnitzler, who wrote Trom Novell, which is what Eyes White. Wedgette is based on. Right. So this is like a very old story. And Sammy Birch is kind of updating it to a more modern New York.

But Willem Defoe's character interacting with his friends from the post office in the bars. Yeah. After he has gotten a taste of that fame, that stuff I thought was really interesting. And there's a really good cast of character actors that are surrounding him in those scenes. And I've been working on this thing about Abel Farrar. And so I've been watching a lot of Willem Defoe movies. And he's like, he's so fucking good. And he's so good in every single movie.

Like I totally echo what you just said, where he's the most watchable actor. And he can do the ghoulish, freakish stuff in all the Robert Eggers movies. But it's movies like this where he's just like a very quiet still man who doesn't really have even much to say in the movie and has sort of been mused that he's really good. There's one other scene in this movie that I just remember that I loved, which is the meeting with Jake Lacey, who is offering to be his agent. That scene is fantastic. And Jake Lacey, like, makes like a couple very interesting choices of how he plays it. And it's like very knowing, but also a little unexpected. And they're really very smart.

Yeah, this movie has a few moments like that. Yeah. It's like, God damn, if you could just put like two or three more moments like this, this movie would be really quite special. But I liked it too. I'm glad that I saw it. All right, that more or less does it for us. We've talked through a lot of movies here.

It's going to be a long time before we talk about any non-Spiderman film. Have you considered that? I have because you're going on vacation. I'm going on vacation. And then I'm going on vacation. Yeah. Yeah, but there will still be movies. We'll just be seeing them separately.

Why do you think there's so many movies in August this year? Is it because everyone cleared out for The Odyssey? I guess so. I mean, it does seem that the movies that didn't clear out for The Odyssey are suffering, so that was probably a wise thing to do. And, you know, I do wonder how much of it is programming. It's really, really hard to get a spot at a movie theater right now, I think, because they just want to show the opposite.

You're right, it is. I mean, just to take a very brief glance at all. August. I mean, on the seventh, we've got one night only Super Troopers three, Tony, teenage sex and death of Camp Measma, ice cream man, late fame, which we just talked about. Then on the 14th, end of Oak Street, rivals of Amzia King, don't say good luck, the wrong girls, Nimrods, 21st, insidious out of the further, mutiny spa weekend, it ends. There's just a lot of stuff coming out. We'll cover some of it. Yeah. What are you most sad to be missing? End of Oak Street. I think, well, and I really, really liked

Kempiasma. Yeah. So I'm sad to miss that too. Yeah. Maybe we'll have reason to talk about them later in the year. Yeah, I hope so.

Okay. Let's go now to my conversation with Gregoraki. So happy to have Gregoraki on the show for the first time. And it's the first time because you haven't made a film in 12 years.

How long has a show been around? The show's been around for 10 years. So we just missed you. Wait, wait, do you not do TV? No. No.

Just films only. I only do films. Feature films only. But that's what I wanted to ask you about. So you spent, a lot of time making TV in that intervening 12 years. Did you learn anything making television that helped you as a film director? Oh, absolutely. Like what? It was huge. I mean, it was like, I mean, one of the reasons, you know, people are like, where have you been for a 12 years? I've been here

doing the same thing. I mean, I made an apocalypse, which is my star show. It was 10 episodes, 10-hour episodes. I wrote and directed all 10. And it was literally like making three movies. It was like the biggest thing I've ever done, the most challenging thing I've ever done. But my work in TV is really helped me a lot as a filmmaker because I feel as a filmmaker more confident and like faster,

more, I mean, I've always been fast. I've always been resourceful because I'm making indie movies. But after TV, you know, we shot 10 episodes in like 40 days. Wow. Like we were just blazing through this shit. And for people,

seen in Apocalypse. It's not just like two people in a room talking. It's like aliens and crazy sex scenes and like three ways and orgies. I mean, it's got everything in it. And yeah, so it was a very ambitious show. And we did it because I really applied all of my indie knowledge. It was a lot of my crew from my movie Kaboom that I did in 2008, 2009. So there's a lot of those

My what I call my A team And some of your actors too Yeah Yeah I have worked with a lot of the same actors Over and over again And And so it was It was the A team

And also working in TV You know The pace of TV is very Different than working in like You know Real feature films Without like a big budget So

We were shooting like 10, 11 pages a day I mean this movie in fact is like the biggest budget I've ever had, but the few was shooting days. We shot in like 17 days. Wow. So we were like cranking it out there. And it's only,

I can only do that because of the TV work I've done. And it really, like I really, I really, really know what I'm doing. In that time when you were working on that series and directing some episodic television, were you like desperate to make another indie movie or any movie? Or is that sort of like you were like, very happy working on that stuff?

in that period. I mean, Now Popkoms was literally a dream of mine. I wanted to make a TV show, my own TV show, since Twin Peaks, since I'd been a movie in the 90s called Nowhere. Nowhere was actually a pilot for a TV show, and I had actually developed it as a TV show. So I've been wanting to do a show like that for decades. So it was really just an incredible dream come true to do it. And Stars was actually fantastic to work with. They let me do anything I wanted. They had no notes. They literally just like, like, let me be as crazy as like sexual and as like, you know, queer and everything that we could be. So it was, it was kind of a really ideal sort of scenario for me. I feel like for the longest time you were identified as the, as a voice of a generation kind of kind of filmmaker, you know, that that would, you were, you were labeled as a person. The voice of a generation, kind of a generation, or kind, that kind of film? You were that kind of filmmaker, not kind of a generation. You were the kind of filmmaker who is the voice of a generation.

And, you know, you're a little older now and you're not, a lot of your films are about young people. All your films about young people. And you're making films about young people still. So do you feel like now that I'm old? Is it, but is it like, is it a provocation to old people? Is it a reflection of something that you've observed in young people? I feel like, you know, the difference is when I was making, yeah, I was always older than the character. I mean, except for, you know, my first movie.

which is about like angst-written 25-year-olds. I was an angst-written 25-year-old if I made that movie. But progressively, you know, when I did the Teen Apocalypse trilogy in the 90s, I was in like in my 30s. But I've always had the advantage of, I guess it's an advantage

or maybe it's a disadvantage for some of people. I've always had like the advantage of having a very young spirit but also the ability of like the wisdom of being older and being able to, I know, I remember when I make, Kaboom, it was very much that. Like, it was very much feeling for those characters, remembering what that feeling is like of being young, being confused, being sexually frustrated or sexually ambiguous or whatever

those, you know, all those characters in that movie. But it was nostalgic for me. And there was a distant, there was the distance of time, you know, and like sort of looking back on those years a little bit in a sort of, through a sort of hazy filter. and where you sort of really appreciate those times that are, like, confusing, they're traumatic. And it's very much, I want your sex as the same thing. It's like, you know, Cooper's character says, you ruined my life. You destroyed me, you know what I mean?

But it is very much in that moment. He kind of can't see the forest for the trees. And being older, I see the forest. You know what I mean? Like I know it's kind of, to me, that's a major theme in, I Want Your Sex. It's like when Cooper's character is 45, he's going to look back on Erica Tracey and go, what the fuck was that? Like, how did that happen? That was such a crazy time.

Like, what? I don't even, you know, I don't even know what hit me. But at the same time, but I'm glad it happened. You know what I mean? Like the experience of that changed me, you know what I mean? And I wouldn't give it up for the world. You know what I mean? Like that to me is kind of where I'm at in my sort of reflective golden years.

Me and Madonna, I guess. But the idea of being like having some wisdom of age, but still remembering like, you know, those feelings of being uncertain, confused. And, you know, when I was talking to Cooper about his character, his character, his character, you know, it was very much kind of, for me, personally, kind of based on myself when I was his age, you know, and like this young artistic kid, not sure myself, not sure what's going to happen to me, not sure what I want to do.

Cooper went out and got his ear pierce for the movie. We gave these hand tattoos like I have. So there was a lot of me in that character, and it was very kind of fun and nostalgic to think back to that. And then also, you know, the Erica Tracy character is also very much made very much patterned after my own work. You know, that way she's very controversial, very provocative. Her work's about sex, sexuality. The things she says in interviews are literally quotations of things I've said in interviews.

So it's, I'm very close to both of those characters. I like the idea of splitting the atom of yourself into two people. And they have that weird conversation. You know, they're like talking to each other. It was just, you know, there's that aspect of the movie. It was really super fun for me. It's surprising, though, to hear you talk about identifying, reflecting yourself in the Cooper character.

Because when I think of you, as somebody who was like watching the Teen Apocalypse trilogy when I was a teenager, I think of you was like a really bold liver teen, you know, like somebody who is like fearless about who they are and what they believe in, showing you. Like Eric Tracy. Exactly, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, do you feel like you've been putting that part of yourself in your movies all along the way? Or is this like the first time you've really put, located that?

There's always been, you know, I've always said that all my characters are always like a part of me and an aspect of me. I mean, certainly there is the kind of punk rock, like artistic, fuck you kid that I've always been my whole life. You know, because that punk music, new wave music, that whole alternative sensibility is. was so formative to me because it was literally right when I was Cooper's age. I mean, that was one of the cool things about the movie

is that the Pretender song was in the movie came out when I was that age. Like, that song is like so meaningful to me to me in that way. That's such an underrated pretender song, too.

It's like really early on that record. I love that song. I love that song like literally for whatever, 40 years or 30 years. And yeah, and so it went when I was making, it was actually in the script.

I wrote it in the script. and I didn't know if we would get it. I mean, it is the pretenders. I literally had to write a letter to Chrissy Hine and say, I've been the biggest fan of yours since you first came out. I saw the first Pretenders tour. I used to, when I was Cooper's age, I had the leather jacket that everyone had,

and it had like a pretender's, like, pin on it of that first album, the white album. And so, yeah, I said, I've just been a fan forever. and this, you know, I'm, this movie in a way is me looking back on myself as a young artist. And, you know, you were so influential to me. And she's so cool, like, just super cool and just very like, oh, you know, she's not, it's like she's an artist too, you know, and she's a little bit older than me. But she's the same thing. She's been doing it a long time and knows what it's like.

And I think could tell that it was genuine. It wasn't some, you know, like beer commercial. Yeah. Yeah, we want to use fucking, you know, whatever, one of your songs. So those first two albums are just perfection. Yeah, I know. Also, yeah, the second album. And I saw her, like, I saw them when they first, first, first came out.

Like, I remember seeing them on the tour for the second album at the Santa Barbara County Bowl. And then the first tour for the first album, they were at, I was at UCSP at the time and studying film. And they were playing in the gym with Bow Wow, opening for them. So I was fucking there. It's like 81. Yeah. You know, it's like, that's like

1979, 80, the first album. So yeah, it was, it was, you know, so anyway, yeah,

we were so fortunate to get that song in the movie. I wanted to ask you about the art world because, you know, I've read the movie

as like a real satire. And so even just to hear you say, Erica is a part of me and is pulling quotations from things that I've said. I was trying to figure out

like how sympathetic are we meant to be to Erica and to this world that she finds herself in someone like the pretentiousness of,

the way that the gallerists kind of live their lives. How do you see it? I mean, I love Erica. I love her character. As I said, I'm very much, there's a lot of me in her. I mean, clearly I don't fuck my interns. You know, she crosses a lot of lines.

She's, you know, her behavior is very questionable in parts of the movie. She does things that I would, you know, are definitely, not even in a moral gray area. They're more like a moral like black hole. But, you know, she's passionate. She's creative. She's so charismatic. She's such a fun character.

I do love her, but I understand that she's flawed. I understand she's inappropriate. And that's actually why, you know, like the first time you see her in the original script, like that scene happens like page 20 or something. And I literally put it at the head of the movie because I wanted to set up. up that dynamic from the start. Like, here's Cooper's character who's like this nervous kid. Like, oh, my God, I don't want to lose my first job or whatever.

And then she is like this larger than life kind of sex like superhero. You know, I mean, that he's so in awe of. And then she's just like, I want to fuck you. I mean, it's like, because to me that sets up from the start, like that's the ride of this movie. I mean, like she's going to be that character who goes to those. places. Why did you want Olivia Wilde and Cooper Hoffman for those parts then? Because they're perfect. No, honestly, yeah, I've been working on this movie since by Bernard Blizzard. Like before,

this script first came to me as a spec script in like 2012 or 2013. And it was a very different movie. Like, it was originally a female intern and a male boss. And it was just a kind of, as more, as pitched to me as like a comic, like 50 Shades of Grey. Okay. And so it was a very different movie. And there was a version of it that we almost made in like 2015, 2016, but then it fell apart like indie movies always do. And in the meanwhile, I've just been rewriting it, developing it.

It's been changing, changing, changing. The original script did not have the mansion, did not have the Sunset Boulevard, body, in the pool, did not have the film and war framing. Did not have, importantly, and the most important thing was, and, and the most important thing was, And the sex roles, we, like I swapped it around 2016, 2017. The male female dynamic. Yeah, to the male female, with a male sub and a female dome, because I just didn't want to have a woman getting dragged around by the hair,

even if it was consensual. I, you know, I don't want to kinkshame anybody, but it was just not an image I wanted to put out into the world. It's also an image I feel like we've seen in movies a lot and maybe not this dynamic that you're portraying in the film. Yeah, I mean, I honestly, you know, you know, especially now given how, you know, current administration and how culture is like become so awful. It was just, you know, I didn't, the patriarchy is like absolutely real. It's been real all this time.

It gets realer and more terrible every day. And so I don't want to contribute to it in any way. So it was, and it's so much more interesting to me. to have Erica Tracy be a woman, you know what I mean, to have a female top. And it sort of gave birth to that character in terms of I see her as like a cross between Madonna and Robert Mapplethorpe. It's larger than life, iconic, kind of like super charismatic, you know, and like almost big bigger than their own art. You know what I mean? Like their art is almost like a byproduct.

of their persona, right? And so it was just really fun to write that character. And what happened was, you know, I'm working in this movie forever, like for like 12 years. And my eight, this recent version of the script, my manager had slipped it to Olivia's agent without really telling me. And then she's all, oh, Olivia Wild read the script

and really wants to meet. And I said, Olivia Wilde, it's like, what a fantastic idea that is, you know, because at that time, this is before the end. Before we now live in the world of Olivia Wilde. I was going to see, timing is incredible now because of the year she's starting to have. Yeah, she's just had this incredible. Well, it all started at Sundance, you know, in January because both movies were there. And, but Olivia's somebody that I've always been a fan of from the days that she was the bisexual kid on the OC. You know, I mean, like I remember her, who is that girl?

Like that she's super interesting. And so I've been, you know, sort of falling her through the years. And Olivia to me is like an old school, like 40s, like movie star. You know what I mean? Like Greta Garbo or, you know, Ingrid Bergman or just the Rita Hayworth, just those larger than life kind of figures. She has so much presence in that insane bone structure. You know, I mean, she's just.

That's coming from you with incredible bone structure too. Yeah, compared to her bone structure or nothing. But, you know, she's just, she's. just this, she's just a large presence. And I feel like contemporary Hollywood was a little bit, didn't know what to do with her. I'm like she was always playing with a hot girlfriend or the hot wife or the mistress or, you know, and so, um, so she's, you know, really respond to the part and we had a meeting and she was so cool and so smart and so fantastic and also just super fearless. Like I told her, I said, whoever plays this part literally just doesn't give a

talk about what people think and she was she's I'm 100% that's a 110% me I'm totally there so you know I so she became attached to the movie it got financed like two days later and then we were making it and and Cooper was actually her idea and she's like oh what about Cooper hopman he's like super interesting I said yeah he's great it creeps me out the idea of him being like you're fucking him he's like that the kid from licorice pizza it's so weird And, but I met, then I met Cooper. He actually lives in New York, but he flew himself here for the chemistry read. And in person, I mean, Cooper was so, he's so young.

He was only like 21 when we made them. He was a baby. And in person, he had so much gravitas, you know, he has so much presence. And when I saw their chemistry together, I was like, okay, yeah, I totally get it. Like, I didn't see, when I think of him in licorice pizza and how he is in liquor's pizza, versus how he is, he's like all grown up. It hasn't been that many years. But the thing about him and Olivia is they were complete, like, equal sparring partners.

I mean, like, it was Olivia's like a big presence and he's a big presence. So the two of them together, it was the dynamic was fantastic and the chemistry was great. And I knew once I saw them, I'm all, that's the movie. You know what I mean? It was like I knew, like, right then, once I saw them together that, you know, they had what they had. what they had going on between them, what the movie was. Yeah, they're wonderful together. You mentioned the framework and the sort of framing device being this sort of noir story

with very obvious Sunset Boulevard, illusion at the beginning of the film. Why did you include that? Like, why was that important to making the movie work? I just wanted to, I think of the movie as being a little bit of a cinematic funhouse. You know what I mean? Like, there's parts of the movie. Like, the film, one thing to me is very, like, Elmodovar. like late 80s, I'm going to do over movies like Matador, Law Desire,

that are sort of huge, huge, huge influence on me. Hypersexual, big feelings. But also they have that kind of, I call it like preposterous film war, where the film war is like a narrative device sort of, but it doesn't really make sense. But a lot of film war does not make sense. Like Maltese falcon does not make any sense. It's so convoluted and so like, wait, what in the, who?

And so... Those movies are also obsessed with movies. Yeah. Those Almodovar movies, right? For sure. Just sort of like your movie's a little obsessed with movies. This movie is very obsessed with movies.

It's like, you know, that old movie secretary. It's just like all... There's so many things going on in it. So, and that was part of it is like this sort of fun house. Like we called the interrogation room, the seven room. Because it was literally like straight out just... Yeah, yeah. Like there was just everything.

Like things were in the movie. I don't want to see in a campy way or self-conscious way, but there is definitely an awareness of film history, like, you know, where all of these, where all of the references come from. Somebody said, a critic at the other day I was talking to, said something super interesting to me, like, yeah, I really got that Mahal and Drive moment in the movie.

I said, what Mahal and drive moment? I mean, obviously, I'm a huge David Lynch fan and he's like, he's like one of my major. influences. And he's like, you know, that scene where they're doubling each other and she's like putting the lipstick on him and the wig and all that? I'm all, wow. That, yeah, that's very, very Mohand's right. But it was like something that I was describing it to him is like all of that stuff is so much seeped into my psyche. I'm not even aware of it. You know, I mean, like there's certain times like Sunset Boulevard pool, that's a quotation, you know, in the Doom Generation when Margaret Cho gets her eye slash and. there's the blood. That's like a quotation of Potemkin. Yeah, I mean, there's certain ones, moments that are quotations and certain moments that are literally just part of my brain at this point, that I'm not even aware that they're there, but they're clearly there. I was thinking about your tone over the years and rewatching some of the movies. And I feel like

I want your sex kind of falls like right into your sweet spot where it's like a little bit screwball, a little bit ironic, but also deeply sincere at the same time. But you've kind of bounced around in the tone. And a lot of the films over the years, like, You've done straight, pure drama, you've done kind of more outlandish comedy. Like, how do you think about how to apply the different tones when you're choosing a project or writing a movie movie? It's very organic. It's not something that's, it's not something that I applied to the movie. This movie in particular, I knew that I wanted to do something, especially as the script developed.

I knew that I wanted to make something kind of fun, kind of pop, for me, because the world is such a shit storm right now. Like, I personally want to go to the movies. Don't want to see something super dystopian, super dark, super, like, super. It's funny for me to say it, but apocalyptic because the world's fucking apocalyptic. Like, New York was like on fire last week. You know what I mean? It's just like I don't want to see the end of the world because it feels like the end of the world right now. So I knew I wanted to do something fun, pop, but smart, you know, and provocative still.

and clearly a lot on its mind. You know, what I hope with this movie is that it's something, it's full of, for me, like, queer joy. Like, I want it to be a joyful experience. I want people to go to the movies. You know, it's 90 minutes. Just, it's not going to be three and a half hours. It's like, go in, go with your friends, like, have a good time.

We just had a screening in San Francisco at the Castro Theater. And it was insane. Like, it was, like, people were yelling. and screaming. It was like a, it was like a rock concert. So the energy level was so intense. And so I love the idea that people can see it, you know, because it's coming out in 700 theaters and July 31st, that people can see it at their AMC with their friends and have

a good time. But also, I do want the movie to provoke people, to challenge people. And I really hope it starts conversations about, because it's not just a dumb, full-off movie. There's a lot going on thematically. There's a lot on its mind. So I do want audiences to have a good time, but then, you know, go out with their friends to the bar after and argue about it. And pick aside and, you know, have a nice, healthy conversation about it. Because I do think that the themes of it are very important, to me, at least.

You've always spoken so well about your influences and the filmmakers that have kind of seeped into that consciousness of yours. but I do feel like your movies now are making a big impact on younger filmmakers. There's some very one-to-one examples where I can feel people riffing on your films in the 90s and 2000s. What does that feel like to be one of the influences now? Well, it feels, I mean, like incredible.

I mean, I'm so honored and, you know, and thrilled that, you know, I see this, I have fans sometimes that come up to me, you know, and they're like, oh, you know, I saw a Doom Generation when I was 15 and it was like, you know, my lifeline and all that. And honestly, that's everything to me. You know, it's like the idea, you know, when we were doing the restorations of the old movies, I would, you know, when I was doing my intros and stuff, I would talk about these movies, you know, they're all these little tiny personal art films that me and my friends made together.

You know what I mean? So the idea that we're standing here 30 years later and you're still talking about them, that somebody out there gets the movie, understands it, is everything. You know, like, I'm not like Oscar nominees. You know what I mean? I'm not like here to win Oscars and accolades. It's like the idea that somebody can understand and connect and that the movies mean something to them, that's why I make movies.

You know, the idea that I'm not just screaming into the movie. Like, nobody's, you know, I mean, the fact that it's resonating with the people that it's meant to resonate with is huge to me. So the idea that, you know, a lot of my fans are like filmmakers, musicians, artists, painters, you know, that they're inspired, they inspire people creatively is incredible with me. I want to hear from you about the restoration of mysterious skin, because that's a movie that I think really, like, changed people's lives. I think there are a lot of people who were really deeply emotionally fucked him up forever. Yeah. Or at least a lot of people, a lot of people who struggled, saw experiences in that movie, but also just people who love film, like really admire that movie. So it kind of coming back into the ether in the last year has been really interesting for me to watch.

Yeah, it's been like, you know, it's Olivia Wild Summer. It's like she's Olivia Wilde, it's Olivia Wilde, 26. But it's like a, you know, a lot of Gregor. Yeah, yeah. It's like, because Mysterieskins can be re-release. in August, and we just did, we did the remaster of it. It finished it last year. And so it's a lot of stuff going on.

Yeah, yeah. Do you like looking back at the work or not at all? I love going back on remastering the old movies. I mean, I love doing Doom. I love doing Nowhere and I love doing Mysterious Skin because it's like those movies, we had no budget in those days to like properly finish them with like a digital intermediate and like all the things you can do with,

digital imagery and you know the color and the color timing and all of this and just all of the bells and whistles that you can do and now the technology is so much more advanced than it was back when we made those movies yeah I love I love being able

to go back because especially for Doom and Nowhere these existing copies were terrible yeah and so people are like oh yeah Doom is my favorite movie what version of it did you see because the Like, it was theatrically released for like five minutes, you know? Yeah. And Doom is a beautiful movie.

So is nowhere. Like, the DPs did an amazing job, and none of the copies of it did it any justice. So it was incredible to be able to go back to the original, they were on the IP or the IN IP for that, I think. But Mr. Skinner is like the original camera, A, B, Roll Negative. But be able to go back to the original negatives and, you know, basically refinish it. the movie in a way that is technically so superior and I'm technically so much better of a filmmaker in 2026 than I was certainly in the 90s or early 2000s. So being able to go back and for me, it's almost like my legacy at this point.

It's like, you know, after I'm dead and gone and they go back and like, let's go look at Gregorock's movies. I don't want them to look at some shitty bullet copy of a movie that. like looks like ass. I mean, I want them to see like the good, pristine, beautiful version that is the version that I kind of want to be remembered by. And so for all those, all three of those movies, the new version is it and the old version should be thrown away forever.

One thing I noticed while, so I rewatched Smiley Face and Doom last night. That's a, that's a double feature. Two of my faves. But I noticed this first with Smiley Face and, and, and, you know, I noticed. Later with Doom, and this is very true if I want your sex too, which is just, you know, the camera is on top of objects and people in the film. It's really, really close. And you are like the king of intimacy, like true physical intimacy in movies. And we're in a time where like even just in the making of movies, the idea of intimacy is like much more complicated about consent and like how you can shoot sex scenes and what even our relationship is to sex scenes.

I know you're getting hit with that question a lot throughout this, but I'm curious like what your relationship is to. the kind of safety around actors and filmmakers when doing this stuff versus how do you get something like in doom there are so many sex scenes where I feel like we're between the two people in a way that is really powerful that really helps the film so how do you think about that now I mean it's why you know it's you know it says as me and Erica Tracy says is that that's why sex and sexuality are so central to my movies because that's what turns me on creatively you know I mean, it's like, and it comes from those Alamo-Dovar movies, which is, I remember seeing a lot of desire for the first time.

The sex scenes in that movie, they're not graphic, you know, it's not porn, but he's capturing something in those interactions that is so intimate, so private, like, that's, those are the moments that interest me as a filmmaker. And, you know, it's funny you bring up Doom Generation because, you know, that's one of those movies that people are so, like, they're like, literally, it's like. they've carried it with them all these decades, right? And I think part of the thing is it's like, it's because you've had sex with all three of those characters.

You know what I mean? Like literally somebody you've had sex with, as Erica Tracy says in the movie, and as I've said in past movies, there is a knowledge there. There is a sharing there that is beyond, like somebody that you have slept with knows you in a way that your mother, your best friend,

like all the people in your life, They don't know you. They don't know you like that person knows you. And I feel like that's why I'm so interested in sex and movies. It's not about titillation. It's not about exploitation. It's not about pornography. And thank God for there's so much porn now because if you want to watch porn, just watch porn.

You know what I mean? It's like in the old days in the 80s, if an actress did atopocene, i.e. Phoebe Kates in fast times, it's like that was porn and people are jacking off to you all the time. You know what I mean? It's like in a movie. now if you do there's like it freeze I feel like actors to be like yeah this really is about this character in this moment and it's not going to be taken out of context on a you know a freeze for a blurry freeze frame of me and 13 year old jacking off to it so I feel like that in a way is

you know for me as a filmmaker that's why my movies have always been about that and you know I had sex scenes in my movies from almost the very start. And I'm just super comfortable with them now. You know, it's like just the experience of doing it so many times. I know, you know, for people that have actors and directors, people have done sex things, they're not sexy. They're not fun. It's another day at the office, but it's an important day, you know.

And me as a director, because I'm very comfortable, I'm very specific about what is going to be seen, what's not going to be seen. And, you know, it's like, this is the first film for her. I've had an intimacy coordinator is Yehuda Duendez, and he is fantastic. But they're really there for the actors because it's literally, because there are actors who are, don't want an intimacy coordinator. And it's like, don't need one and also don't want one.

You know, they don't want someone between me and them. And, but there are other actors that do, you know. So I feel like it's really, I think, 100%. percent leave it up to them. And because it's my job as the director is to make sure my sets are as safe and comfortable as they can possibly be because actors are so vulnerable. You know, they're literally physically naked and emotionally naked and like doing these very intimate, having these very intimate moments. And so for me to capture it with my camera, I need, it needs to be as safe as it can possibly be. So I always tell my actors, I always say that it doesn't

matter how busy I am, like what just happened on set, how fucked on everything is that sets on fire or whatever, you can always pull me aside. You can, I always have your back. Like, you can always pull me aside. And if you need a private conversation, like, there's a weird vibe on set or somebody who's looking at me where or something, this is happening right now and it makes me uncomfortable. Just let me know. I mean, I'm always there for you. Because I do think, I do really feel for actors and the notion that, you know, what, you know, I could never, do it. I could never do what actors do. You know, it's like they're, they're really putting themselves out there, you know, and so, yeah, I'm just grateful that I've got to work with all the fantastic

actors I worked with in my life. I was wondering if your career turned out the way you thought it would when you were at UCSB. Like, is it, is this, are these, these are the movies you thought you'd make? Is this, were you going to be a studio director? Like, how did you think about what your life would be? It's funny. I was just talking about this the other day because it's like, you know, I, um, If I could, you know, go back to the 19, 20-year-old me, that, you know, the age of Cooper in the movie, or Cooper's a little bit old in the movie, but that starry-eyed, you know, kid in studying film at UCSB, he was, like, really into Jean-Luc Goddard and all that. And tell that person, these are all the things that are going to happen to you. These are all the movies you're going to make. You're going to be in the Canfield Film Festival, getting like a standing ovation.

You're going to be at Sundance like 10 times. You're going to do this. You're going to do that. I would be like, you're fucking on crack. Like that's never going to happen. I mean, I can't even imagine like that. It's like when I was just hoping to do something. You know what I mean?

Not totally like I don't fall between the cracks or something. I just feel like, you know, weirdly in a way, I just feel so fortunate and so privileged that, you know, I was born at the exact right time. Like, my career has taken place, my life has taken place the exact right time. Like, literally, I was, this is an undergraduate, UC Center Barbara, 19, 20 years old, when punk rock music, new wave music, alternative culture, was born, exploded. And for me, as a young artist, or young wannabe artist, that sensibility of like

fuck the mainstream fuck everybody do your own thing march your own drummer you know it's like you know it that was that formed me that made me who I am and it absolutely was the biggest influence in my life

and then you know I started making these indie movies in the sort of the mid 80s when Stranger Than Paradise came out you know Chan is missing she's got a habit it's like oh how weird like these little fucking black and white movies, you know what I mean? They're not winning Oscars or anything, but people are going to the theater and watching

about it and watching them and talking about them. And I know from my generation, like Rick Link Letter, Gus Van Sant, Anderson Anders, we all saw Strangerland Paradise and we all thought the same thing of like, holy shit, like what the hell? Like, you know, before that, there was, of course, John Waters and all of that, you know, So I just came at like things. So that happened. Then the 90s happened.

Sundance happened. I was right in the middle of all of that. You know, it's just like I just was always kind of in the right place at the right time. So, you know, I feel so fortunate in the sense that, yeah, I don't know. I honestly don't know anybody. I mean, I'm trying to. I mean, everybody has a different career, you know, like in friends with Rick Link, Laird, Gus Ventan. Like all these people.

we've all had different careers but like I don't think I don't know I think I'm so grateful for the films I've made and what I've been able to do in my short time here it's weird I was talking to a friend of mine when because you know David Lynch died

John Lauder died it's just like oh man it's just like that's so sad it's like passing of an era and I'm like you know it's certainly sad that they're gone but it's like I'm what a fucking legacy you know what I mean

Like two men, they, you know, literally changed the course of fucking cinema forever. One person, you know, you can't ask for anything more than that. Like, you're one man. And you're like, just changed the fucking game for everybody. And, like, that's incredible. So for the fact that two of my idols did that, it's just like, yeah, it's just like amazing. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? Are you still an active

Cynophile? I don't go to the movie I should. I am, the thing is, this is it you get to this I don't want to sound just be honest.

I don't want to sound like someone a cynical fucking asshole but I'm in the WGA, the DGA, the Academy that I like a TV Academy. Like I hit every screener manageable

award seats never ends and you just get inundated with so many fucking movies, so much stuff. So yeah, I have not seen as much stuff as I should. I try to keep up. I am like everybody. I do this thing. I call it the at-home version because I love to

be at home and not be traveling. Like whenever like canned film festival happens, Sundance happens, and I'm not there. I always do the at-home version and like watch like, oh, what's this film? Oh, who's this filmmaker? Oh, oh, that person's a Sundance this year. You know what I mean? Like I like doing the at-home version and like, you know, from home. Have you done a good at-home version of someone recently? What's something you've seen? There's always, I like, I just, it, what it is is sort of like, I mean, and, you know, a first cinephile, I mean, because I have friends that like, oh, yeah, they go to Cannes every year, they go to Toronto every year, they're out in the trenches doing it. I don't, I'm not one of the people that I feel like, I need to be the first person to see. I, like, I saw that at the film, that Sunday before anybody, you know, I like, it's like, I don't, I can just see it when it comes out or see it when I catch up to it. So it's like I'm not the first person, but, um, Is there anything you have seen that you have really liked? Let me think. It can be an old movie, too.

It doesn't have to be a new movie. It could just be something you've revisited. I'm trying to think of something that I've seen, like, recently that really, I can't think. Everyone always gets stage fright here. I mean, edit around your stage fright. No, it's so hard to, like, boom, like off the top of my head, like, just come up. This is why we have a letterbox now. Yeah.

So we can have a diary of what we've watched and remember what we like. Yeah, that's what I mean. Well, that's why it's funny. Like, I'll give you an example of, like, movies and how much a part of your life there. Like, I did the Criterion Clause. And it's just like, it's just like when you walk into the Cartierian Clause, it's literally like a flood of every movie you've ever seen. You know what I mean? And you get kind of, it's, it's just fun.

They're fun to watch because it's like everybody having those moments of like, oh, yeah, I remember that. Okay, this will be an example. though I haven't watched it. That's okay. I did take it, like, I saw that film, Chili Scenes of Winter in the Criterion Clause. I'm a holy fuck. I don't literally,

I saw this movie when it came out and like, whatever it was 1980, maybe. It was right when I was in film school. And I just remember, like, loving it. You know what I mean? And that's what I think is so magical about movies. Is it just like, they really become a part of you and they're a part of your life like a life experience.

You know what I mean? Like they're really like just seeing the title and seeing it on the shelf and pulling it out. I was just like, oh my God, I remember this fucking meeting. Because it takes me back to who I was when I saw that movie. I was literally just like this starry-eyed kid. I think I had just moved here to go to USC, like early 80s. And, yeah, it was, it was, and then, you know, Mary Beth Hurd died recently. And, you know, I mean, it was just very, yeah, because you just, it's funny the way movies take you back like that.

Because, you know, Chile since the winter, Mary Beth Hurd, and then she was also in interiors that Woody Allen movie, which was, like, so reviled when it came out. But I remember, like, loving that movie when it came out because I was such a pretentious little film kid. And, yeah, and it just. It's funny the way movies work in your mind that way. Chili Scenes of Winner is a great recommendation, though. Not enough people have seen that movie. Yeah, no, it was very, because for me personally,

it was a big, I think I wrote a paper about it or something because I was very, as you know, really into screwball comedy and had done a whole kind of like a lot of essays and a lot of stuff about scruple comedy, what it is, like what it means, what the symbolism is, all of like all yeah it's just my pet one of my pet genres in film school and

Chalicelyson's winner in the context of Struple comedy is super interesting because it's sort of taking the elements and the motifs and the themes of screw comedy and transposing them into this other darker more naturalistic yeah

yeah naturalistic and darker and also but there is a relationship between like bringing a baby in that movie, you know what I mean? Which was fascinating to me as a young film nerd. You answered the question. Craig, thanks so much for doing the show.

I'm glad I finally came out. I was like, out of the top. It's just hard. I always ask you this. What's your fucking five favorite movies? So I mean, so I did that list once and I just keep going back the same list over and over because

it's like I can't think about it. But yeah. Thank you, Greg. Thank you. It's awesome. Okay. Thanks to Greg Araki. Thanks for our producer Jack Sanders for his work on today's episode.

Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for his production support later this week with great power comes, great responsibility. Spider-Man brand new day, and I'm going to make Amanda rank every single Spider-Man film. See you then.