The Big Picture - ‘Sing Sing’ Is One of the Best Things You’ll See This Year. ‘It Ends With Us’ Is … Not. (Our 700th Episode!)

Episode Date: August 9, 2024

In their 700th Episode, Sean and Amanda discuss the news that the Brad Pitt and George Clooney vehicle ‘Wolfs’ will have a one-week limited theatrical release before moving to streaming, then talk about a slightly deranged combination of films this week (0:45). First up, they dive into ‘Sing Sing,’ a deeply moving prison drama starring Colman Domingo about a small group of prisoners attempting to stage a theatrical production (11:53). Then, they transition to the bizarre and controversial Colleen Hoover adaptation ‘It Ends With Us,’ starring Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni (28:11). Finally, Sean is joined by ‘Sing Sing’ director Greg Kwedar to discuss how this extraordinary film came together, casting formerly incarcerated actors, the unusual rollout of the film, and more (1:08:45). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Sasha Ashall Engineers: Aleya Zenieris and Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the fall of 2014, a group of hackers pulled off the biggest Hollywood heist of all time. They broke into computer servers belonging to Sony Pictures and released hundreds of thousands of top-secret documents. The attack would cause an international incident, upend thousands of lives, and change the movie industry forever. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Brian Raftery, and this is The Hollywood Hack.

Listen on the Big Picture feed starting August 19th. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the end of us all. Today on the show, we will talk about Sing Sing, the new drama starring Coleman Domingo. We'll also talk about another drama, It Ends With Us, which is the Colleen Hoover adaptation starring Blake Lively. Several dramas in one.

So it's going to be a dramatic episode. That's all I can say. Later in the show, I'll have a conversation with Greg Cuidar, who is the director and co-writer of Sing Sing. Terrific movie. Great conversation. I hope you'll stick around for my chat with him. But first, today is the 700th episode of The Big Picture. Did you know that? I did because you put it in the spreadsheet. Okay. Do you have like a I did because you put it in the spreadsheet. Okay. Do you have like a separate spreadsheet that's just counting? Well, I have an archive of every episode.

Okay. So. An archive in spreadsheet form? Yeah, like a list of every episode we've done. That's different from the scheduling episode that you give to me? Well, let's go into the spreadsheet right now. I'm so glad you asked. So it is a different... Oh, show archive. I see it's a different tab here.

Show archive. Okay. So if you scroll down, you'll see on the left-hand side... What time of day are you maintaining the show archive generally? Really all times of day. One might say I'm always updating.

Are you doing it on your phone? Occasionally. Not something like this. Yeah. I was going to say, you know, Google Sheets, I think, would probably get a little overwhelmed at this point.

So according to this counter, this is the 14th, the 714th episode. Well, no, it's not. And here's why. In this list of episodes is the Brian Raftery series. Oh, okay. So we've had two series from Brian Raftery. And I don't mind saying right now that we'll have a third coming later this month. I feel a little sad not counting Brian's shows as part of the extended Big Picture universe.

Well, those are his episodes. Those are his shows. I mean, they definitely are. They're not the Big Picture. It's just the Big Picture presenting the work that he and the teams that make those shows do. You know, we believe in it. We've worked on it. He's, you know, he's part of the gang.

100%. Okay. In fact, he'll be on the show in a week or so to talk about what he has put together with the team here while we'll be out I'm not actually gonna be on vacation that week so what am I gonna do

with my time I gotta figure that out you've started scheduling podcasts for it just so you know oh yeah I did I mean it's fine love to record

like there are fewer of them but still yeah well you're going somewhere you're going away I know we're getting ahead so I appreciate that. 700 episodes.

You feel good? You feel like we're doing a good job? What will we do for 750? I don't know. To me, you're always trying to... Inaugurate Donald Trump. I don't know. We'll see. Will that be while I'm gone? Probably. 50 episodes but to a week, 25 weeks. No, I should be back for it. You should come back the day of the inauguration.

I honestly, like, that might be, you know. It's right around that time. Yeah. In theory. No, honestly, I think my return date might be Jan 6. So that's a different situation that we can talk about. Maybe we can push that recording. How wonderful. Yeah. It's 700. Great. Love around number. I do too. I do too. I know we're not really celebrating in any special way. Okay. 700 is not really a meaningful number. We're going to talk about some stuff. There has been some news in the world of movies. Yesterday, we got word that the film Wolves, which is starring George Clooney and Brad Pitt, a big reunion of the Ocean's Boys that Apple has financed. Two of the Ocean's Boys. Two of the Ocean's Boys. Yeah, we'll talk about the other Ocean's Boy. Yeah, which again. Next week. They made a movie. Apple financed it.

Sony is distributing it. And then we got word that this movie, which is going to open in wide release on September 20th, is now having a one-week limited theatrical run and then going directly the following week to Apple TV+. Now, this is after the relative lack of success of Fly Me to the Moon, which we talked about. Scarlett Johansson's Channing Tatum movie. And also The Instigators, which opens today on Apple TV+, a new Matt Damon and Casey Affleck movie. Yeah.

That I don't, did anybody go see, did it open in limited theatrical? I don't even know. I don't know if it did either. My plan is to watch it tonight. Me too. So that's Matt Damon and Casey Affleck are in a movie together, and that movie went straight to streaming. And now Brad Pitt and George Clooney are in a movie together, and that movie is effectively going straight to streaming. So that's not cool.

Yeah. Can I tell you how I learned about this? Yeah. which is I was spending time with my family in the late afternoon. And then I checked my phone and I had 43 missed text messages to the blank picture, which is a group chat that we have with Griffin and David. And I was like, oh, God, you know, somewhat like Bob Dylan has died or something, you know. And then it was that we are, this is only having a one-week theatrical release. So, like, I'm coming at it from a different set of expectations than you are, just in that 10-second window of reaction. I mean, I can understand why this decision was made.

Yeah. This movie, I would say, has not been marketed that well. It did not seem like it was going to open to gangbusters in the movie theater. It's obviously an opportunity to push more people to sign up for Apple TV+, which doesn't seem like a lot of people are doing that right now. So that's something that they need to continue to finance these movies. They did announce in that trade issue that F1 is still going to open wide,

the Brad Pitt movie opening next year. And they also announced in tandem with this that a sequel to Wolves has been greenlit. If they add Matt Damon and Casey Affleck to the sequel. Interesting, like a blended universe. Yeah, that is also the Oceans reunion that we're looking for. I accept.

I'm okay with it. Do you think that they should play the same characters from the Instigators? And they should all be... I haven't seen the Instigators yet. So, I don't know. But it does sort of seem like that would align with their Oceans. You know, aren't they guys who get up to crimes, but they're not that great at them? That's true.

Yeah. And then Brad and George are like, we told you how to do it. You know? That's true. Maybe that would work. I'll say this. I'm not sure that wolf sequel is ever happening. That sounds like something that was announced to create an opportunity to send that movie

straight to streaming. Just some speculation on my part. I will say they showed the Wolf's trailer before our screening of its end. Our Girls' Night Out screening of It Ends With Us. Please don't spoil the atmosphere that we're going to discuss. That's how it was branded. And I thought that was, you know, savvy. I mean, I think they are both Sony related. Sony is distributing.

Yeah, just like Sony distributed Fly Me to the Moon. I was like, you should probably make this audience aware of the fact that Brad Pitt and George Clooney are in a movie together. It doesn't seem like a lot of people are. So, I mean, that movie's coming out in five weeks. I'm aware. I'm excited. Just not great for the big picture. You know, just like movies.

I'm annoyed. The scheduling is really tough with our planning and also with certain life events coming up. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's the end of September. There's like five huge movies opening and you're, you know, you're a number of weeks on the board. I could go into labor during Wolf's in the theater, you know, or Megalopolis or any number of things. That's right.

There will be so many births in September. A month of birthing. I'm so excited. One other piece of news for you. Yeah. I've been starting to get excited about the movie Saturday Night. I brought it up a couple of times here on the pod. Right.

You brought it up yesterday in a podcast that people can listen to two months from now. That's right. I did mention it, too, when I talked through the Fall Festival stuff earlier this week on the show. Of course you're excited about it. You love Saturday Night Live. I do. I do. You're like a real and you're also a real comedy nerd.

Yeah. I appreciate and enjoy Saturday Night Live. Grew up, you know, in the Kristen Wiig, Will Ferrell, Maya Rudolph. Like that, you know, all of that stuff was important to me. I've read the book, the history book. I've seen the clips. I think it's funny. What did you think of this the history book. I've seen the clips. I think it's funny. What did you think of this trailer? Well, I'll set the stage. The movie is a all-in-one-night

comedy thriller is how it's been billed about the first episode of Saturday Night Live, which had quite a bit of chaos behind the scenes. And it stars a very honestly exciting group of young actors. Gabriel LaBelle from The Fablemans, Cooper Hoffman, folksy Hoffman's son from Licorice Pizza, Rachel Sennett, Dylan O'Brien, Lamorne Morris, Corey Michael Smith, who we last saw in mid-December, Ella Hunt, Nicholas Braun as both Andy Kaufman and Jim Henson. So it's a, you know, there's a lot here that is appealing. We talked about Jason Reitman and he's tricky. Jason Reitman is hit or miss. So everything involving all of the, the cast members and the, the chaos and excitement and seventies vibes of Saturday Night Live, you know, seemed accurate and fun.

And like, I like a reenactment as much as the next person. And then the fact that the trailer is built about around a 20 something white guy standing in a stairwell being told if they want you to fail, you need to succeed. I was just like, Oh, Jason Reitman is back making movies. Yeah. So your mileage may vary.

I, I, I won't, I won't debate that point with you um there's definitely something traditionalist you know a lot they're great actors what if they're rebels though they're white guys but they're like gary hart you know think of the men who have led jason reitman films in the past i don't know tully young adult you can tell a story about a lady juno i i think i hated both of those movies. Young Adult was irritating.

And Tully was really, really good until the ending, which is one of the greatest crimes committed. Kind of an M. Night Shyamalan situation there. Yeah, but just really hateful against moms and women. So that was a problem for me personally. I didn't quite have that read, but I'm neither a woman nor a mom. So that was tough. I'm still really mad about that. What about Juno? It was funny. Okay. Will you show Juno to Alice and at what age? And what will you tell her? Jesus Christ. Yeah. See? How's it feel? I mean, I will. Okay. I don't know if I'm going to say, hey, sweetheart, it's movie night.

Let's sit down. Mom, you go out somewhere. You and I will sit and watch Juno together. Right. So there we go. But if she wants to watch it. Okay. If she's going to be a cinephile.

Yeah. I'll tell you who's an interesting figure is Diablo Cody. I might be interested in Diablo Cody's version of Saturday Night. Yes. That would be interesting. But I don't think that's what we're quite going to get. This script was written by Reitman and Gil Keenan, who is the director of Ghostbusters Frozen Empire. And it was also his writing partner on the previous Ghostbusters movie that he directed.

I wasn't a big fan of either of those Ghostbusters movies. I also wasn't a big fan of a bunch of Jason Wright movies. But when he hits, he hits. Yeah, those weren't very good. But the Slimer made me laugh. I didn't know that J.K. Simmons and Willem Dafoe were in this movie either it's pretty good have you seen the Willem Dafoe Nike commercial yet I mean Nike doesn't need my free advertising but it's really good I like it uh I'm happy for him I there was some speculation that Saturday night is now going to the Toronto Film Festival as well I thought it

wasn't going to play a festival but now it sounds like it will it's out really soon it's very funny news for Adam Neiman we'll have to very funny news for Adam Neyman. We'll have to get Adam Neyman's thoughts on Saturday night at some point. Chief, what would you say? Nemesis? Thorn in the side of the Jason Reitman industry? Yeah. I like Jason.

He's been on this show. He's a nice guy. Chief critic of? Chief, well, I think it has extended beyond a mode of criticism. Okay. I mean, it's an art form. We're in bit territory. Yeah.

It's comedy. Yeah, it's comedy. Yeah, there you go. It's comedy. It's like Saturday Night Live. Shall we talk about movies? Yes, I love movies. So Sing Sing, you know, before we started recording, Jack Sanders,

who's producing today, asked me why Sing Sing is having this very unusual rollout. Because the movie opened in very limited release, I want to say three weeks ago. And it was only in New York and LA. And it seemed like in that first weekend, it did really good business.

And this is a movie that premiered all the way back in Toronto in September and was sort of the other Coleman Domingo movie in the fall festival season because Rustin was also premiering. And that was a movie that he eventually got nominated for Best Actor. And the film eventually got picked up by A24. They released it slowly and now as a few weeks have gone by rather than like that one week opening engagement and then going wide or expanding significantly they're taking their time with it so it was a little hard to figure out like when to even talk about this yeah because the people who've seen it have loved it and i'll say i loved it this is one of my favorite movies of the year i did as well it's it's it's a must see um it's a

it's a beautiful movie and we'll talk about kind of what it is. I don't know if there's a way to really spoil it, but I really want to encourage people to see it. But I think it may not be open in your city today. It might be another week or a week after that. To be honest, it's difficult to see here in Los Angeles and New York as well. It's very, very limited. I think this weekend it's going into hundreds of theaters, is my understanding, and hopefully more after that. Right. It seems like a slow awards play

rollout. Very similar to the Past Lives playbook, is my understanding, of like festival premiere, build buzz, then hold it back, hold it back significantly. Right. And then all of a sudden it's time for everybody to see this movie. So, you know, let's talk about it. As I mentioned, I talked to Greg Cuidar. He's the director of this movie. He has this partnership with Clint Bentley, who is also a director and his co-writer on this movie. And they've been going back and forth the last couple of years. Clint had a movie, I want to say at TIFF called Jockey, starring Clifton Collins. It was really good. And Greg was the co-writer. And they've been working on Sing Sing for a long time. And they learned about this program at the Sing Sing Correctional Facility. Rehabilitation Through the Arts. Rehabilitation Through the Arts, RTA,

which is a program in which incarcerated men are participants in a theater program. They learn how to act. They learn how to write. They learn how to direct. And they learn how to collaborate and make art. And the program is fascinating. It has this incredible success level where the people who do participate return to prison at a significantly lower number than most other people who are incarcerated. So, you know, the story was told in a great piece by John Richardson in Esquire, I want to say some eight years ago. And Cuidar read that story. They're effectively adapting that story about these two men who find each other in this program and in this prison, Divine I and Divine G.

And this whole movie is really built around those two men and their participation in RTA. So Divine G is portrayed by Coleman Domingo, who is a big, famous actor and an actorly actor. Yes. An actor with a capital A. Someone who never lets you forget that he is an actor. And I don't mean that in a negative way. And Divine I is played by a man named Clarence Macklin, who was previously incarcerated,

who participated in the real RTA program, and who is, to me, just an extraordinary, fine, human performer. Like, I was just annihilated by this person about this movie, but I did not know until the credits rolled that he was playing a version of himself and that he had been through this program and is formerly incarcerated. So I spent the whole movie being like, who is this? And how are they doing this?

And how are they, how did they find this person? And this is incredible. And, you know, and the like gross part of my brain is like, this person is going to win an Oscar. And like all of these things these and you can see all of it and then for the reveal to be like that he is it's it's extraordinary i think also the way that the the filmmakers structure the film and help support that performance and kind of let it develop is like very subtle but very essential

i completely agree i think i told i said this to greg when we were talking i read the log line of the movie and i did learn that some of the participants in rta were in the movie and i honestly was a little like uh seems like kind of treacly sundancey stuff yeah of course i mean it's like any sort of i mean you hear sort of like inspirational prison set drama and awards season or festival in the same sentence and you start to imagine a certain playbook um and it can go treacly and overly sentimental or just kind of like false very very quickly so i had the exact same expectation and it's really not that and i mean they make a lot of incredible decisions

like obviously the the most important is including former participants of the program um and they shoot a lot of it in close-up to let like those actors and and i think improv a fair amount of it so to like really just like give those actors room to like bring their own experiences make it feel real make it feel authentic

and make it not feel like that Hollywood thing and then they have like this what I think is one of the best decisions they make there's no

like climactic final triumphant performance and I don't mean to like diminish those in other movies. Like, we don't talk enough about Lauryn Hill and, like, Sister X2. The score doesn't swell.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, or even, like, to the Sundance point, like, The Little Miss Sunshine, which is sort of, like, an ironic joke about those types of performances, but still, like, tugs at your strings. And, you know, I had the same thought. Like, Coleman Domingo is an actor, and I was like, oh, are we going to get this big, like, set piece from him?

And I'm not above those. But you get snippets of their performance. But all of the revelations and all of the triumph are, like, between these men. In one-to-one conversations, yes. Or, like, or in rehearsal or in places where you're seeing, like, that it's between them, not about what they're doing for an audience. And it makes such a difference. I totally agree with you. I know that sometimes you cringe when I say how much I like a process movie,

but this is really a process movie. It's a process about, you know, it's not just this organization does put on like Hamlet. They do put on, you know, well-known works of theater, but they also write and Breaking breaking the mummy's code is the name of the show that was written by brent buell who's portrayed by paul racy in this movie and it's an absurdist time-traveling ridiculous story that allows the participants to play all of these crazy and zany characters so it's a movie with like a real sense of humor and it also has a real intimacy that you talked about shot on super 16 and so it's a movie that like a real sense of humor and it also has a real intimacy that you talked about shot on Super 16.

And so it's a movie that is kind of meant to make you feel as though you are like sneaking in on their rehearsal. You know, it's not it doesn't have that throat clearing bombast that you're talking about. And it's it's just all the better for it. And I also agree with you 100 percent about the way that they set up Divine Eye and let him like evolve as a character over the course of the film because even at the beginning of that movie I was like ah this is I know what this is I've seen this before this is gonna go bad and then it actually their relationship is not at all was what I was expecting and the way that they come together and break apart and the disputes that they have I thought to be so fascinating

the supporting cast is really great too I thought to be so fascinating. The supporting cast is really great too. I thought especially Sean San Jose who played Mike was really, really good and I'd never seen him before and then I learned

that he's Coleman Domingo's best friend and that explains that they have an amazing moment where they're talking to each other in their own cells through a wall

and I was like, God, these guys feels like they've known each other forever. Yeah. And they have. Right. And a very powerful sequence.

And the movie is just like a series of incredibly powerful sequences. And it does have the like sun-dappled men looking through bars out into the open free world. Like it does have some of those hallmarks of a prison drama. There's no denying that. But it's much deeper than that. And I think Sing Sing looked like beautiful at times. It's not actually Sing Sing. I think it was a decommissioned prison elsewhere.

Right, but also, I believe, like, a decommissioned prison that many of the formerly incarcerated had actually been processed through at some point. So going back to film it was, like, a very, very loaded, heavy situation for them as well. Yeah. It's so interesting. Like, I don't know how... It's not quite a feel-good movie but at the end of the movie i was like deeply moved i was i was and i i i wanted to see more of the lives of the people in the movie and not in like a marvel way you know i felt like i really i was i was invested it also has like the one powerful sequence about the system and the injustice of the system that it just has one.

And they really keep it pretty minimal. But it is like a total gut punch within the movie. So it's not without its ideas. And to your point, it's like not feel good, but you feel a lot. Deeply, yeah. And you feel really deeply about it, and you feel like there's got to be a better way to do all this. So it absolutely has a point of view, but it really picks its moments in, I think, a smart and powerful way. Yeah, I really liked it.

I hope people go and see it. It's one of those movies where I think it really worked in theaters but you could also see people really enjoying it at home and one of the reasons why I think it has a strong awards chances is it's a movie that I think people will watch on a screen and care about and be able to feel connected to and it's really heartful. You know,

Coleman Domingo is a curious success story in Hollywood. He's not 25. He's been acting for a really long know, he's not 25. He's been acting for a really long time. You know, he's a writer. He's a director. Like, he's done a lot of work.

He's done a ton of theater work over the years. He's done work along the lines of what RTA does in his career. And it's only really, like, in the last five years, and I think you could probably say Euphoria is, like, what really pushed him into the center of culture he's actually the one note in this movie where occasionally i'm like this is a little big for what we're doing here

and the divine g character is big very purposely and he's kind of portrayed as this like almost shaman like creative right at the center he is like the playwright of the group and helps decide what the performances will be and who gets to be in the troupe for the season, etc. So I think there is supposed to be like a certain aura around him. And then I think part of the character's evolution and the movie's evolution is like pulling it apart a bit, which think it really does well like i do agree in the moment you're just kind of like well it's colman domingo and this is like this movie was apparently filmed in 18 days between the color purple and rustin reshoots or maybe i have that reversed exactly what it's like yeah it's like a 18 day window between those two really big projects you know and those are like big performances exactly so you see the balance but but like that's what the movie is about in like in in a

really lovely way and so to watch like the the the snazzy colemanomingo like kind of fade away and get broken down towards the end. It's a pretty amazing performance. Yeah, I asked Craig about this too. Like there's something really interesting in the act of performing. We even have a little bit of here on the show

where a lot of it is teamwork and some of it is competition. And like when you're an actor, you want to win your scene sometimes, you know, and the Divine Eye character, you see him becoming stymied because he doesn't know how to do what Divine G can do or what some of his other, you know, these people who've been putting on shows for a longer period of time than

him. And so he withdraws. And then as the movie evolves, you see that like, as he becomes more comfortable, Divine G becomes more frustrated. And it just has this really clever narrative tension between the two of them and I did really walk out of the movie just thinking like Clarence Macklin not Colman Domingo you can have both I mean it doesn't have to be either or but he is really what sealed my love for the movie well sure and I think like the movie is even built around that and narratively and like power dynamics there's that the great scene where there's a there's a hamlet monologue within this play and colman domingo's character saunters in

and it's like i will be like reading for hamlet and then he gets asked to leave the room because there's someone else reading and it's the clarence macklin character but of course he's like wait what you know what's going on? Who else would read for Hamlet? Yeah. And but like and then even the way the movie builds to that, like that final performance, which is like really the the like moment of artistic triumph. But it's like in rehearsal and a bunch of guys. He's like he's doing it for his peers which is what is amazing about it

and an amazing performance of that soliloquy as well there's another moment near the end of the movie where a man who had been

incarcerated but but left the prison comes back to visit the RTA group and just talks about his life yeah

that is doesn't feel like a movie right and is another thing is a choice that if this were like a studio movie Right. And as a choice that, if this were like a studio movie and not an independently financed movie, you'd be like, I think we should cut that part out.

You know, like, that guy's not like a polished performer. It doesn't really do anything for the story. You know, it's just a perspective that we're getting. But if you don't have something like that, you then don't get this incredible, like, punch at the end of the movie.

So a lot of really good choices made in this movie. Like I said, I really hope people see it. I think it genuinely is, it is really the first challenger to Dune Part 2 this year. To me, it's the first movie where I'm like, that movie's going to be nominated for Best Picture. And I think it could be nominated for Best Actor. It could be nominated for Supporting Actor. If it's not nominated for Supporting Actor, then... They for supporting actor. If it's not nominated for supporting actor, then they should push that.

I mean, I think they will. And there's like, again, the part of my brain that started being like, Ooh, like Oscar campaign, who is this guy?

It was immediately like, I'm like a gross person, you know, because it's, it's, it's how you sell a movie and it's how you like get awards. But also like, I, I found the actual performance and movie. It is, and it's how you sell a movie, and it's how you get awards. But also, I found the actual performance and movie more meaningful than that. 100%.

I mean, the movie is a bigger deal than whether or not the movie wins awards. But actually, this is a perfect example of a movie like this participating in the awards race, getting more people to see it. It's a movie that people should see. And if it's nominated for awards, more people are going to watch it. So I have no compunction about it. I don't feel gross talking about that thing. It's important. If you want to hear more about Clarence Macklin, he was on WTF and had a great conversation with Marc Maron. I encourage people to check that out. It was really cool. He's just a very insightful guy and has a real, not just charismatic, but a lot of self-awareness and is really good at talking about his life and his story. So

encourage people to check that out too. I'm sure we will talk about Sing Sing again on this show. Let's talk about It Ends With Us, which is as hard a 180 from Sing Sing as you could possibly have in the world of cinema. Yeah, this is a pretty deranged transition. But we didn't do it, you know? This is how it got scheduled. We were going to do 10 Movies We 10 movies we missed yeah and then i started realizing just how big it ends with us is yeah and how it's tracking to be the second biggest movie of the weekend and it stars the uh wife of the man who stars in the biggest movie of the weekend and they have been working together to promote their films yes and they have a kind of low-grade Barbenheimer situation that they're trying to push.

I didn't know anything about Colleen Hoover, the author of the novel that this film is based on. I don't think I'd ever watched anything that Justin Baldoni had ever done.

I had not either. He's the star and the director of this movie. I was aware of the movie. Well, one of the stars. One of the stars. It was on my radar, but didn't feel important so we'll

do 10 movies we missed probably in september um there has been a bunch of stuff we haven't gotten a chance to cover and i do want to get to that but we should talk about it ends with us so set the scene for our screening last night sure so you texted me on tuesday um with a link to something branded as girls night out it ends with us, which was an early Wednesday night screening that was available all over the city. Though I was very excited to receive this because I was the holder of a single ticket to It Ends With Us at another early screening that was not branded as Girls' Night Out.

Alamo, I guess, announced it. Was it Boys' Night? It Ends With Us for the boys? Yeah, well, who knows what's happening at Alamo. But they didn't announce them immediately because I was trying to figure out a way to see it i knew that it was my job to go see this did you think i wasn't going to see it well with vacation i didn't know whether you would have the opportunity did not get anybody to a screening for this film yeah nor did i but i so i was really excited to get to go to a theater that I like more closer to my house with a friend.

What a nice way of putting it. Yeah. With a fellow girl. With a fellow girl who, it should be noted, arrived in the parking deck almost exactly the same time I did. And we came onto the ramp from different angles. So I see this absolute blur of a car like shooting up the ramp. And I was like, geez, who is that jackass? As he like cuts right in front of me to get into the level. And then there's one glimmering parking spot right in front of us that this jackass slides

right into. And I was like, wow, who just stole that perfect parking spot from this nice pregnant woman that is me reader it was sean um so that was really special uh let's go back to the nice pregnant woman nice pregnant woman i don't i you're right i don't feel that nice anymore it's really getting tough but i did then get to greet you and being like you just stole a parking spot from a pregnant lady i will not apologize the open road is a race i mean you are going too fast on the ramp. Well, it's just something I do. I know that, but it's the fucking Americana, you know? Like, bring it down a notch.

You know, this is California, you know? I know. It's as close as we can get to the Autobahn. So once we got over that hurdle, we found our seats. We did. And we started counting the number of men who were in the theater at Girls' Night Out. How many did you finally tally?

So I would say it was maybe, we maybe got to 10. Because there were a surprising number of date nights given the subject matter, which we'll discuss, which we learned about in real time on the screen. And I'll also just say like a surprising number of late arrivals for Girls Night Out. That was very weird. It was really, really weird, right? Yes. Literally 25 people walked in within between 10 and 30 minutes into the movie. Yeah. And it was clear that this was also like an occasion. These were not the people, or let me just say it, the young women

who I normally see at the Americana or in the Americana bathroom, you know, going to the movies. It was lit. They were dressed up. Some people were bringing flowers.

Like, they were clearly there in groups. They were doing Girls' Night Out. It was a moment. Yeah, it was a moment. And everyone looked great. But, like, everyone was done.

Except for me and you. I liked your striped shirt, though. I meant to say that. Appreciate that. And so it wasn't like there wasn't thought put into this. I guess they just go to the movies differently than us. And so they came really late. Well, none of them seem like parents.

I'll put that out there. Yeah, that's a good point. They all seem to be between the ages of 22 and 30. No, we were definitely the oldest, except there were a couple, it seemed like mother-daughter pairs. Right. Like the daughter was 20s. Right. That makes sense. But otherwise, we were definitely the oldest people there.

I mean, the movie itself, I sensed, you know, at some point this week that it was had a kind of phenomenon quality. But like I said, I didn't know anything about Colleen Hoover. She is a romance novelist. I was looking at her Wikipedia yesterday. She's written many books. Yes. Like north of 25 books. Yes. It does seem like this is the signature book and there has since been a sequel since it was published in 2016. And it's also kind of had two waves of popularity. So, I mean, I think she's been like a working novelist for 10, 15 years at this point and started YA adjacent and has written like,

genre-wise, they're sort of hard to classify. I mean, I think they all fit under the romance tent. You used the phrase dark romance yesterday. Well, that is a phrase that I borrowed from my friend who is a romance, I was going to say expert, but she's actually like now a romance tent. You used the phrase dark romance yesterday. Well, that is a phrase that I borrowed from my friend who is a romance. I was going to say expert, but she's actually like now a romance publisher and like a editor. 831 Stories is the company. They have a book coming out in September called Big Fan. And she described it as dark romance. And what I learned from her on the night before we went was that all of the colleen hoover books whether they are like pure romance or like you know just fiction about women that they tend to

have some darker unsettling elements whether it's domestic abuse or just power dynamics, addiction, like things are not sunny always. Probably worth underlining that this genre, this sub-genre of fiction has been propping up the publishing industry for about five years. And Colleen Hoover in particular has like sold more books than the Bible, like pretty literally the last couple of years, more than any of your other like paperback trade fiction stalwarts combined. She has like five or six books on the New York Times paper, like one of the lists,

whatever list she would be on, like simultaneously. She's like an absolute industry. And it ends with us, which I keep just wanting to call This is the End, which is a very- Or This is Us. Or This is Us. All very different movie. But It Ends With Us is her most popular book. And it had like the first popularity surge pre-pandemic and kind of like the romance community, which is like a very powerful book community.

And then it's sort of like the foundational book of book talk if you will and so had like a second surge during the pandemic right when like 2022 and the book yeah yeah and i think that's when and she was self-publishing for a while and then certain publishing houses bought some of her books and like reissued them. And I think she has like, she's so prolific. She has like six different books contracted to like different publishing houses in the next few years. So she's self-made. It's like a very, very impressive story.

Congratulations to her. But I think you and I, I had 24 hours warning, but you and I were not expecting this to be like a very harrowing and uh multi-layered story about domestic abuse no it's probably worth noting that um i don't want to make light of that part of the story but i i do want to make light of the fact this movie is fucking deranged yeah and very strange And I do understand in some ways why this kind of narrative resonates, but I did want to unpack with you a little bit

why it is resonating so strongly with book readers and, in theory, moviegoers. So I did some reading of the book and then I was just like bopping around trying to read at least excerpts of as many Colleen Hoover books as I could. They're all checked out on Libby. So I was just having to do like the read sample, you know, which is, I mean, which is not surprising.

Good for her. So you only get the first two chapters, which give you a sense of tone and like setting, but don't give you the other thing that most of these books apparently feature which is like explicit sex um and i will note that even in the first two chapters of uh it ends with us it's set on the same balcony scene that sort of opens the movie um the meet cute yeah sort of um and it's both darker and more like hot and heavy than the movie version. Okay. But I didn't get to any like really go for it sex, but apparently that does happen. Well, let's talk about the movie in relation to some of those things. Yeah.

I don't think we've said Blake Lively's name. She's the star of this movie. She portrays a young woman whose father has just died and she returns to Maine where she grew up. Plethora, Maine? Plethora, Maine. Driving an immaculate old Mercedes.

Yes, very similar to our friend John's old Mercedes. Did you notice that? Yeah, of course. Different color. Different color and also didn't we have to say

goodbye to that? It's gone now, yeah. But I spent many, many, many nights in that car. I spent a lot of time cr Different color. Different color. And also, didn't we have to say goodbye to that? It's gone now. Yeah. But I spent many, many, many nights in that car. I spent a lot of time crammed into the backseat. Blake Lively's looked more spacious. Yeah, it did. But that's okay.

So she goes to Maine to go to eulogize her father. That doesn't go exactly as she'd hoped. She returns to Boston where she's currently living because she's opening a flower shop like you do. Yeah. In 2024. Yeah. You love flowers.

You open up a shop in a major city and you make it a great and successful business, which is something that she does. Along the way, a very chatty young woman who's dressed stylishly enters this recently leased space before it becomes a flower shop

and says, I'd like a job. That woman is played by Jenny Slate. Why does this woman need a job? Doesn't seem like she does. She's literally carrying a Birkin bag as she asks for a job. She's in a dirty old cafe that has been. Yeah but like a boho like anthropology inflected dirty old cafe. As soon as Jenny Slate started asking Blake

Lively for a job I was like this is not gonna be a good movie. This is I don't know what is happening here. This is not something that happens. This is just pure poppycock. No, no, no, no, no, no. Because before that is the balcony scene, which allegedly Ryan Reynolds wrote. I don't know if you saw this. This is one of the... There has been some speculation

that the Ryan Reynolds-Blake Lively machine got involved in the production of this movie. That's unconfirmed. And we will talk about the drama later on. I have been on Colleen Hoover Reddit trying to solve the problem. Very exciting. But no, no, no.

In that balcony scene, which is more meet cutie than in the book, in my opinion. Okay, does it have a sinister quality in the book? Yeah. Or just like sensual? Yeah, I mean, he's like, well, both. Okay.

Which is like kind of what I think the vibe is. But he's both like really about to break that chair and there's like a lot of emphasis put on like the type of titanium steel so that the chair couldn't break but he's like still hammering at it so it's like more violent and then a little bit steamier but the thing they have in common is they both have to talk about their naked truths right and so he the the balcony scene involves them being like naked truth to each other several times and i was like well this is where my comfort ends you know i was like this is officially too awkward for me but i'm gonna keep sitting here it feels like the the movie at that point thinks it's a romantic comedy yeah and i i i'll be honest i didn't feel like i

was getting enough signals aside from that kicked chair yeah where the movie was going and not knowing anything about colleen hoover or her work or not and frankly not watching the trailer to this movie right as the movie starts to evolve and becomes a much darker story i was like what the fuck is this? So this is two things. But you didn't even think anything of the fact that she had nothing nice to say about her dad at the eulogy? I mean, I suppose I noted that and that meant maybe something had happened with her mother. Right.

And none of the scenes of Blake Lively driving an old Mercedes in a tortured as like Grey's Anatomy light songs play and people are like It's a very good description. Soundtrack to this film is abhorrent. Don't, don't, don't don't spoil it. Anyway, in the book

she like on that balcony scene lays out my dad used to hit my mom. Oh, interesting. It's right there from the very beginning which I thought was notable.

And I do think the movie is trying to do a more rom-com structure. To wrong foot you? That's a weird thing to do in a movie with this narrative arc. I don't know if it's to wrong foot you. Okay, so this is actually very, very important. So I mentioned Justin Baldoni. He's the director of the movie.

He's directed a few features. He was one of the stars of Jane the Virgin and was like a CW star and has become kind of an auteur in the last few years. He made a movie called Five Feet Apart. In this movie,

he portrays the man in the meet-cute at the beginning of the movie, the man who may be the man of Blake Lively's character's dreams. And I feel like the movie, for as long as it can,

pulls punches on who this character really is. And it feels like that choice was made because the guy who's like the movie, for as long as it can, pulls punches on who this character really is. And it feels like that choice was made because the guy who's directing the movie is also that guy. And it's not until the very end of the movie do you really understand how dark this story is. And some of the psychology of that character. There's a level of hiding the truth and then empathy for this character who in any other circumstance you'd be like that guy's a piece of shit right i was very confused by that choice

i well i mean i agree with you and i think one of it is like endemic to kind of like the the romance genre and then one of it is endemic to trying to one of it is endemic to trying to, one of it is a problem of trying to then make it into like a movie with a three-act structure and character arcs that a movie audience responds to. But I sort of think, and again, I couldn't read all of it, but I spent, Colleen Hoover read it. You guys were doing the work. And I'm, you know, I don't know if that's like the most representative of the colleen hoover community i think they have other spaces so i'm sorry but i did my best to understand what's going on this is the most sensitive you've been about any topic and on this show in like 10 years colleen hoover read it you're doing the work listen well they're not totally doing the work

because they didn't solve any of like the set drama mysteries for me. But it's just like, you know, people are really committed to this stuff. And it seems like he is maybe both more obviously unsympathetic in the book, but also or more on the wrong and like our objective sense but but the book's intent or what the book is doing is exploring like the complicated nature of a relationship like that and that lily is this person who still does love him even though it and it's like taking her a while to realize like what's going on and how she feels and what she wants. So and also the book is first person and every book I read was first person, which I do think changes your experience of that. I mean, like, I agree with you. Are there any scenes that don't feature Blake Lively in this movie?

I'm trying. Hmm. A couple of flashbacks, I guess. No, but she's in those. Well, in flashback in flashback form but you know she's played by someone younger she's played by isabel ferreira um in the flashbacks listen hitting people is awful i agree with you like objectively this guy is bad but like the point of the book to me seemed somewhat for her to have to to not realize that for a while so that then she could have like that moment yes in the hospital where she does and it leads to the title which once you realize what's going on and then you're like oh that's why it's called this and we're just

gonna have to sit through right two hours of this for her to say the words it ends with us but the thing is is that it's not two hours of it it's an hour and 20 minutes of like a rom-com that becomes a love triangle. Right. And you're like, I'm in a fairly conventional romance movie. Right. And then the movie takes a very hard turn. And what it does is, the way you would in a thriller, and maybe this isn't, maybe this is entirely intentional, but it takes a piece of information that we were given earlier in the movie and says, actually, that's not what happened. Here's what really happened. And we only see it in a quick way. And then we realize that it completely reshapes our perspective. I was curious. I mean, I'm not going to read the book, but how that information would be communicated in the book,

because it just changes the movie entirely. And this was a movie that through the first hour, you and I were like having a lot of fun with. We were laughing. We were like at things unintentionally. I thought like I don't really understand why Blake Lively is styled in the way that she is in this movie and looks kind of

strange styling she she's style famously does not have a stylist in real life right and there are a lot of people who are very invested in her style choices both

positively and negatively but like it it's a thing and I think that there are a lot of young women younger than us. That like her style. Yeah. And who thinks she's like doing cool things. I was just weirded out by her reliance on Carhartt throughout the entire film.

And then I was like just trying to explain to you that you're old and like that's a thing right now that's happening with the youth. But me being old means I know about Carhartt and Carhartt is for Raekwon and Ghostface. It's not for Blake Lively. What is going on here? It's like, I have this Carhartt pants that Sophia wears. Like, and then they do all the, like, do you know how much Carhartt there is on Essence and how much there is on Urban Outfitters as well? That's, my culture is not a costume. Okay. Okay. I'm just like, I like tried to explain that to you during the movie and after the movie, and you were like,

really upset. It was also the rhinestone gloves that she wore to get married in Vegas seemed like a real... Hideous. Yeah, but you... She looked like Dolly Parton in 1984. You were really upset. Blake Lively is a very good screen presence. I'm not sure if she's a great actor, but she's a good movie star. And she hasn't been given a ton of opportunities to lead movies in the last 10 years.

But when she has, I'm at least like interested in the movies. I think she fits into a, I'm trying to think of like what's a good historical comp for her as an actor. Where she's like sort of glamorous, has enough talent to carry a movie, but not enough that you'd ever be like, you know who my favorite actress is, is Blake Lively. Obviously, she's become weirdly significantly more famous in the last five years because she's married to Ryan Reynolds and she's best friends with Taylor Swift. So she's kind of at the front and center of our culture a lot of the time, at least the culture that we talk about on this show. She's pretty good in the movie. She's okay. Yeah, I thought she was charming.

And she's also like picking projects that, I mean, I don't think she has the big picture audience in mind. No. You know, and it is sort of like a. I think that's a good thing. I'm glad to talk about it on the show. Yeah. But I. This is not for the Scorsese heads, this movie.

No, it's like a, it's like a, you know, we talk about mainstream audiences, but, and that's like within the, the mainstream of people who go to movies. And this is just like a group. I wonder if this was like the first movie that a lot of people in the theater had seen this summer. If this year, you know? It's a very good call.

I mean, we do talk about how there's not a lot of movies that are programmed specifically for female audiences. This is that to a T. Right, but like, I mean, how many of them do you think saw Challengers? You know? I don't know.

They may end up making about roughly the same amount of money, those two movies. So anyway, it's interesting that she did it. of them do you think saw Challengers? You know? I don't know. They may end up making about roughly the same amount of money, those two movies. So anyway, it's interesting that she did it. And I thought she was like pretty charming. And I thought she was actually most charming in that balcony scene, which is very funny when you know that her husband wrote it for her to like give her something to shine. But to go back to your structure point, I think there is something else here that is going to be a continuing problem. Romance is obviously such a huge book genre with new audiences. We've already gotten the Idea of You this year, the Nicole Kidman one, and the Zac Efron one, and Hope It's Okay. A family affair.

Yes. And we're going to get more. And there's just like this structural problem. Because it took me a long time and I have never really responded to like romance novels themselves. Because until I realized they're not actually about are the two people going to get together, which is like the classic rom-com thing. The people get together and start fucking really quickly. And that's cool. And that's like a lot of the appeal and so all romance genres at some point seem to be about like is the main character gonna figure something out about usually about herself or like about intimacy or something like very like emotional is there gonna be some sort of like breakthrough whether

it's like with another person or through the trauma or whatever but like that's harder to make into a three-act structure that we're used to watching in the movies so i think a lot of romance movies have been tried they're trying to shove them into the rom-com box because they think they can sell them that way yeah and we know that it's gonna be like oh are they gonna get together and it's like yeah no no definitely they are and the pacing and some of the story rhythm just doesn't quite fit yet and i i don't know how they're gonna solve for it well through the first hour of the movie aside from the blake lively characters recollections of her abusive father and also this, you know, this

flashback to a young love that she has with a boy, a homeless kid who lives across the street from her, who, you know, resides in an abandoned home across the street from her. There's no narrative tension. Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm saying. It's just a girl falls in love with a guy. She's opening a flower shop. he's a neurosurgeon and incredibly handsome right they have a lot of sex and go to parties and they have a cool sister and husband boy who they hang out with and watch bruins games like it's not a movie if there's no story right but the only reason there's no story is because they're not showing you any of what the story is going to be so i i don't know if i've ever seen a movie like this where they are just completely reluctant to show their hand.

And I could not help but feel like they wouldn't show their hand and they wouldn't reveal that more sinister nature of that character. Because the guy who made the movie is the guy who's the bad guy. Yeah. Maybe I'm misreading it, but I couldn't think of any other reason why you would make the movie this way. Because the whole time I was like, this is the flattest thing I've ever seen. Right. This is a piece of paper, this movie. It is not, there's nothing robust about it.

It was noticeable to me that when like the third guy showed up, there were like gasps in the audience because clearly the people who knew the story were waiting for this character. Right. Because, oh, and that's another thing in the book, like all of those flashbacks are diaries that she's writing to Ellen DeGeneres. To Ellen DeGeneres? We do see her another thing in the book like all of those flashbacks are are diaries that she's writing to ellen degeneres um ellen degeneres we do see her watching yeah

and i think that's like an easter egg for the people who know so it's like they're called her ellen diaries and she's just writing about like here's what happened to me and you learn all about atlas i'm just telling you what i learned i don't understand does she have a relationship with ellen degeneres i think it's parascial. Do you think that there's a listener at home right now writing you a diary entry? Dear Amanda, today the unhoused boy across the street looked at me just so. Well, I hope that they develop a healthy relationship and whatever happens to that unhoused boy is not what happens in the movie. We should do a Dear Amanda segment where people write in to you. I'd love that.

And they ask love life advice. I think I would give great advice. Okay. You don't? Well, we'll see. Let me start the segment. Maybe that should be your call-in segment when you're on leave.

Oh, people ask questions? I read a question to you over the phone. Okay. And you give your answer and we run it at the end of every episode. Okay, that sounds great. Okay. I'm just, I'm like,

there's a lot going on in the book, obviously, that didn't make it into the movie. And that people... Dear Ellen is deranged. I just want to put that out there. But then did you notice that everyone was just like really excited when that character, who I thought was the director and star of the movie because he's been on all the press stuff, not this other guy. And again, we will get to it. And some of the Colleen Hoover Reddit fans wish that they had more of the Atlas character, because I think that is more of the romance and the promise of the book. So yeah, I think you're right that they softened him because he was the director and writer.

But also because otherwise it's just, I mean, I don't know what kind of movie it is. The movie is two hours and ten minutes long. This is a 90-minute movie that is two hours and ten minutes long for some reason. And it's a complete vanity project from a white guy who's adapting one of the signature romance novels of the last 10 years written by a woman starring a woman that is written in the first person? What is this? I don't know. Anyway, Brandon Sklenar is the Atlas character. By the way, deranged names in this movie.

The names of the characters are Lily Blossom Bloom, Ryle Kincaid, and Atlas Corrigan. I mean, listen. Straight to jail for Colleen Hoover. That's just. That's like, that's not even a speeding ticket in the Colleen Hoover universe. I just have to say that to you right now. We need to build an entire country to fill it with all of the people who need to go to prison for buying Colleen Hoover novels. That's crazy talk.

Ryle Kincaid. Listen, I just told you about the Dear Ellen journal. Okay. I gotta be honest. I was entertained by the movie. It's terrible. And maybe dangerous,

but I was entertained. I think it might be dangerous. And it's bad. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Do you think one of the messages, because here was my reading of it. I was like, okay, this is a post Fifty Shades of Grey Society of Romance No a question? Yeah. Do you think one of the messages, because here was my reading of it. I was like, this is, okay, this is a post Fifty Shades of Grey society of romance novels.

This is BDSM without the consent. That's what these stories are. Yes. And that is, that actually does feel dangerous to me. And I think that that has been an ongoing critique of some of her novels. And again, I'm by no means the expert. I did a cursory, I I'm I'm by no means the expert. I did like a cursory. I like I read what I could. And they are different. You know, there are different circumstances, like different challenges in all of them. It's not always domestic violence. It does seem like there's always like a really rich guy, which is interesting. And, you know, class story. And there is a real class element in a lot of them. And then it does seem like there is at the minimum like what we would call unhealthy relationships. And like maybe the point of the books, if you want to be generous, is like trying to resolve that and get to like a healthier place.

But it does seem like the enjoyment and why people are reading it is because of like that dark romance nexus that you've identified. So I'm saying dangerous in jest. Like obviously I love movies where people get stabbed in the face. Like it's not actually dangerous but I am fascinated. I was like kind of ranting to you in the parking lot after the movie about this.

Trying to understand like what is appealing about this. So in this story in particular we can at least focus on that. You know the sex between these two characters between the justin baldani character and the like lovely character it's meant to be like great like they have found it's it's pg it's portrayed pg but like they have a physical like an intense physical connection despite the fact that underneath the surface of the way that the story is told there's something very sinister happening and that he is is not a good person. And so if that's something that recurs in these books,

like, is the idea then that, like, the best sex is with the most dangerous potential partner? Like, I... I mean, that is... I agree with you that it's troubling. That's weird. Again, it's weird and I haven't read and that these are, you know,

literally selling as much as they are. It's alarming. I don't know what to say. Listen, I just learned about it, but I would like agree with you. I'm not ignorant to like the appeal of a bad boy. I'm just, this is a little bit, the last 30 minutes of this movie, I was like, what? This is wrong. This is wrong.

It's really, really messed up. And then that like, but then he has a trauma too. And then it just like keeps compiling itself. And there are like weird bite marks that are like, it's, it's, it's he has a trauma, too. And then it just, like, keeps compiling itself. And there are, like, weird bite marks that are, like, it's really, I mean, I would agree with you. It's troubling. It's, like, I don't have a lot to add to the fact that it's just weird. I like to clutch my pearls every once in a while, you know? And it's really, really weird when you think about, like, how many people you know who have read this.

Like, I was out to dinner, like, talking with my friend Claire and the other friends about it. And our server was like, oh, are you talking about the Colleen Hoover book? And, like, and I had a great conversation with her. But I was like, oh, like, this is what people want to have conversations about. Here's the one thing that... The real father of a daughter is jumping out here when I'm watching a movie like this. Yeah, no, no, it's horrifying. And I sort of feel this way.

I mean, this is uniquely weird. And it's... I don't want to paint the entire romance genre world with this brush. But in general, I... Yeah, I don't understand them um i i do wonder though whether this movie was even made for people who don't know the twist and who don't know what's coming meaning it was only made for book readers like i sort of a house of the dragon situation yeah but i just you know the everything that you're saying about like this guy just like seems normal and they have a happy life like maybe if you know and you're not

like us two idiots then you're like oh this is sinister they're like a couple of clues but not a lot justin baldoni in general it's like a west side male model thing like i you know again i was very flummoxed by blake lively's costumes and and jen jenny slates as well though they were funny yeah i thought she was jenny i'm a big supporter of jenny slay i thought she was very good in a movie that is at times ridiculous the idea that this is representative of boston in any way is um great note is like as another question that i would pose to the group. And then you mentioned the soundtrack, which like I think after like four songs, because it's just loaded with them, I turned to you and I was like, I did this soundtrack,

like as a joke. And then 30 minutes later, what is I think supposed to be the emotional core of the movie, which is a flashback to two teenagers having sex, is set to a wispy girl cover of Skinny Love by Bon Iver. And you and I, like, were disrespectful. Simultaneously, without looking at each other, we both burst out laughing. No one else laughed in the movie theater. Like, really audibly. And everyone else was like,

oh, this is like a, a very important moment, and you and I just could not contain ourselves. So, Justin Baldoni has to go to jail for the movie, and then he can get out of jail, and then back to jail for the soundtrack.

Like, this is a double crime. This is a recurring complaint with me of, like, any movie targeted at women, like, automatically just has, like, the most garbage soundtrack like ever of all time and I don't know

who to blame for it. I thought the Idea of You soundtrack was pretty good. So this is I was thinking about this. Do you think the Idea of You is better than this? So much better.

Now I don't know if it's going to be like more successful but that movie has Anne Hathaway like just Anne Hathaway alone an Academy Award winning actor

set aside all the crazy domestic violence stuff. I think that this movie is batshit with alarming aesthetic and moral choices. But I also am like, is it maybe more complete as a movie than the idea of you? Perhaps. So it is at least true to what it is than The Idea of You, which was like trying to be for us, but it's like not for us. No, it is for me, as I've said. The Idea of You is a movie that I liked. I'm not afraid to say it. In fact, I liked it quite a bit. I'm actually wearing my Idea of You shirt. After I saw the movie, I Googled Anne Hathaway ombre shirt Idea View Coachella. And how many of those articles of clothing that Blake Lively was wearing will you be buying?

Absolutely none. What's the better film then? Riddle me that. Can we talk about the Justin Baldoni drama for a second? Yeah. I mean, I don't really understand what's going on. No one does. But like you excitedly told me as we walked into the movie after the parking incident that there was drama and that Justin Baldoni, the director and writer and one of the stars of the film, has been doing press completely separately from the rest of the cast. The cast is not acknowledging him. He, I guess, is speaking about the cast, but the cast is just, the rest of the cast

is pretending that he doesn't exist. And I did then find out that Blake Lively, Colleen Hoover, Jenny Slate, everyone also unfollowed him on Instagram.

Dun, dun, dun. But no one knows why. Well, what do you think he did? I mean, he made this movie, for one. That's right. So that's tough.

They all saw it and they were like, unfollow. That's right. So that's tough. They all saw it and they were like, unfollow. That's funny. You made yourself look nice. I don't know, because then there are a lot of like clearly pro-Baldoni like people in the Twitter comments. Who are they? Listen, who leaves comments on the Internet?

You know, it's like a whole other investigation. It's not you and it's not me, it's like a whole other investigation. It's not you and it's not me, but it's a lot of people. And there's like clearly a probe all down event that's like, I heard that Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds tried to take over the movie. I did read those rumors as well. Right. But, you know, why would they then unfollow him? Because he probably fought back. Okay.

In all likelihood to retain ownership of his film. Well, he holds the directorial credit. Yeah, we don't know if they won. We don't know what they wanted in the movie. We'll probably never know. It's a great rumor. All right. The idea of not acknowledging the second lead and director of the movie on the press tour is fascinating.

I'm not sure I've ever heard of that. So, because you told me this right before the movie started but I have never seen anything that Justin Baldoni was in besides this. You never saw Jane the

Virgin at all? No. Okay. Musicals you know the theater kids. Jane the Virgin a musical? No I'm thinking of

Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. I don't know. Okay. I don't know why I didn't see it then because I do like Gina Rodriguez. 2014 through 2019 it was on. Yeah I just wasn't watching a lot of TV. Anyway I hadn't know. Okay. I don't know why I didn't see it then because I do like Gina Rodriguez. 2014 through 2019 it was on.

Yeah, I just wasn't watching a lot of TV. Anyway, I hadn't seen it, but I had seen a lot of the press coverage because, like I said, Blake Lively's press tour. She's like wearing old Britney Spears dresses from 2000. Like, it's really, there's a lot going on. She seems to lead an interesting life. And I basically ended up thinking that the Atlas guy was the director for a while, and I didn't know who this other person was. And it was an extra layer of confusing. And I was like, that is not what I thought he looked like.

So I actually thought Brandon Sklenar, who does play at the older version of Atlas, was, I thought, an interesting screen presence. He's probably best known for his performance in 1923, the Taylor Sheridan series, co-starring Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren. So it's okay when he wears Carhartt with you. Well, he's a chef, at least, in the film. And so he's wearing like a lot of smocks and aprons. You don't know what it takes to be a floral artist and to be reimagining flowers. The scene on the balcony, she doesn't even have a flower shop yet, and she's wearing a Carhartt flight suit.

Where the fuck is she? Is she going to Mars? Where is she going? Is she going to fly to Concord? Another thing that they don't explain is like how is... She's literally wearing a flight suit, Amanda. How is... I know.

In the summer in Boston on a rooftop. How is she funding any of this is another question that I have, because even though he's a very rich neurosurgeon, it's never like she has any concerns about money and is just like leasing the flower shop. And it's going to be a riveting story about class. Be a big success. Colleen Hoover. So you could say like, well, maybe she's just wearing that's that's one of her outfits. It's true that you don't see it again.

You see many other Carhartt pieces. I mean, I wouldn't wear it. There's also one thing that's supposed to be sexy where they're about to have sex, but she's not ready. So he puts her pajamas on over her fishnets. And then she has to sleep in fishnets with pajama pants on top of it. And that is just not comfortable. Have you done it? No, but like, I mean i i'm just like you

gotta take any sort of like hosiery off before you put your pajamas on tonight okay let me know not a big pajamas guy personally um i like that's something i really understand i feel like they're made to be filmed yeah or in private but like you have home clothes, right? Certainly. Yeah. So it's just like home clothes. I don't want, you know, when I'm going to bed, I don't want to have to button anything. Right. You know, I'm like coming up on a phase where they're like actually very useful because when they're saying you have to like, you know, you need the button access and, you know.

You should get some of those Carhartt straps, you know. Oh, that would be great. Listen. That apron was like that had that button opening there. That was impressive. Yeah. Sklenar, the other thing about that guy. Well, that would be great to listen. That apron was like, that had that button opening there. That was impressive. Yeah. Sklenar, the other thing about that guy. Well, that's the thing.

You were like, you thought he was good, but you hated his mullet so much that like anytime he showed up, you just burst out laughing. I was like, they just let this guy have a mullet. So also what happens to him is that he opens like the best restaurant in Boston, which, you know, is maybe not like a huge feat, but still you're supposed to. They do things a little differently at Root. Right. And it's like dedicated to the memory of like Lively's character, Lily or whatever. The memory of a living woman.

Right. Or like some shit about a root that's like strong that she told him once. But it's just, it's like carrots on a plate. Like, I don't know if you clocked that food, but that was just like. They do things differently. Yeah. But like the carrots didn't even look that nice. Food comes out when it's ready. Yeah. You know, meant to be shared. Maybe they have mac and cheese. They definitely have Brussels sprouts. I was like, oh, I've seen this menu before. Let's put yourself in those shoes. You go to an exciting new dining establishment

in Los Angeles. You walk in. Who's behind the table kitchen? Well, no. Well, I would hope not. I would hope you would never have a black eye. So remember when I walked into the pole? I do remember. And lightly concussed myself. That was actually very scary for me. And I actually did have a black eye. Yes. And I was like walking around for a week with a black eye. And it was like very stressful. I had to lead with a lot of, I just went back to work after having a baby and walked straight into a pole to like try, you know, and like the more I did it, the more made up it sounded, but that actually is what happened. So, you know, I have been there in what I thought was an accident situation. Well, when that sequence in the movie happens and the audience is meant to think that this is all big one misunderstanding. Yeah.

I once again was like, this is not a film. Like a movie in which somebody accidentally got a black eye in the home because of an accident. It brings up her trauma. Just like accidentally getting hit brings up her trauma? Yeah, because like her mom. It really brings up her trauma because they show you. It brings up her trauma. Just like accidentally getting hit brings up her trauma? Yeah, because like her mom... It only brings up her trauma because they show you a flashback in her mind. Like it doesn't actually... Listen, I don't like trauma plots any more than you do,

but like that's what it's trying to do. I agree it doesn't work. This was important work talking about this film. This film is going to be a big hit and I don't understand what's going on with the people of America who are interested in it. Yeah. And I wish them well. Yeah. You know, I chance to see deadpool and wolverine as a 42 year

old man i understand we make choices that we regret it is like blake lively and ryan reynolds have found each other and have found like artistic projects that are like speaking to their respective audiences in ways that are aesthetically and morally perplexing to me personally would you say it's like at this point not that morally perplexing i'm just like this is dumb but do you think of them as sort of like ingrid bergman and roberto rossolini like how would you compare them to in the annals of cinema um elizabeth taylor and richard burton yeah i guess so and maybe like you know in 15 years they'll do some movie

where they're screaming at each other for three hours in black and white would welcome it yeah would welcome it I won't be there I would welcome it any final thoughts about it ends with us or sing sing pretty deranged to put these two episodes 700 episodes yeah it's what we do here you know the light

and the dark Amanda thank you let's go to my conversation now with Greg Kwidar. In 100 meters, turn right. Actually, no, turn left. There's some awesome new breakfast wraps at McDonald's. Really? Yeah. There's some awesome new breakfast wraps at McDonald's. Really? Yeah. There's the sausage bacon and egg. A crispy seasoned chicken one. Mmm.

A spicy end egg. Worth the detour. They sound amazing. Bet they taste amazing, too. Wish I had a mouth. Take your morning into a delicious new direction with McDonald's new breakfast wraps. Add a small premium roast coffee for a dollar plus tax. At participating McDonald's restaurants.

Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. Greg Cuidar, the director of Sing Sing, is here with us. I'm very excited to talk to him about this incredible movie. Greg, I candidly do not know a lot about your career before I saw this movie, and I hadn't seen Transpicos. And so I went and watched it, and I read about, you know, the premiere at South By, and then there's this eight year gap between that movie and your next movie as a director. And it's not necessarily unusual, but I'm always curious about what is happening in a filmmaker's life after they've had a moment and then it stopped. So I know that you and your partner, Clint Bentley, work together regularly. I was hoping you could talk a little bit about those eight years and developing stories and doing things that is not specifically directing movies. Yeah, I mean, and I became aware of this as I was stepping on the set to finally direct Sing Sing, that I've been on set as a director between these two feature films, probably what is it? We made Sing Sing in 19 days and Transpecos in 16 days. And those are the total

amount of days that I've been on set as a feature film director in eight years. And I think when you come to that realization, one, it's just like, damn, you know, but it just goes, you have so little of it and it's just sort of like sand slipping through your fingers but i think the perspective i had when i finally stepped on set to make sing sing was just it's precious time you know you don't get much of it in your life particularly my life so far you know maybe others have had a few more swings at bat but you got to make it count and to be grateful for the moment that you're in, that you get to do this thing, that you get to make a film. Um,

it's a gift, you know, it's not something to take for granted. And, but yeah, the eight years was, uh, not something I could have predicted, you know, between movies. I certainly, you know, and the crazy thing is i had the idea for sing sing i came across this story like two months before trans pegas premiered at south by southwest in 2016 and so i like and it hit me like a like a mac truck i was like this is the film i want to make next and i remember those like earnest conversations you know on the water bottle tour which is a thing that happens after you have a movie

that makes any little bit of noise on a festival circuit. Like all of a sudden, you know, Hollywood's calling. I live in Austin, Texas and, you know, you're driving onto these lots. Clint and I, you know, we're in our, you know, rental car and, you know, going onto every studio, me with all the producers and, you know, coming in like every studio, I mean with all the producers and, you know, coming in like very earnestly wanting to talk about this movie, sing, sing. And then, you know, everyone's like, okay, all right. Love it. You know, like let's let's keep chatting and we'll find that thing,

you know? And I think, you know, what I started to realize like early on was like, you know, I had made Transpecos, I guess on its surface is in a thriller genre. You know, I think there's other things maybe in its current that connect to what Sing Sing is maybe on a deeper level. But the industry at large was wanting to kind of extract the commerciality that they saw in Transpavis and they were like, wanted more of that, you know, they wanted to serve up more of that. And so, you know, we got scripts that were every form of cop movie or military or, you know, some of those down for a bit and there's a after a while and you kind of get to drink a bit of their kool-aid and like you start to feel like okay well then maybe this is just the kind of work that i'm going to get the opportunity to do and you start reading these scripts that early career filmmakers like myself you know you're getting scripts that

probably a hundred directors have passed on before it came to you, you know, and then you're reading it and you're, you're kind of squinting at it, you know, like maybe, maybe it's a character study about a transformer, but it's a heartful transformer. Yeah. Right. Right. Transformers did not call, you know, maybe I would have been like, well, you know, one for them, one for me, you know. But steadily, you know, in that time, to answer your, ostensibly a few of them that I would get a chance to direct if, if they got the green light, got close on a few of them that were a bit more in that lane of what should I do next? Um, but meanwhile, we were very steadily also working on trying to bring Sing Scene to life, which was his own rollercoaster we can talk about in a bit. And then also my creative partner, Clint, is a filmmaker himself. And we were trying to get his first movie made, Jockey. And so there was a lot of activity around just trying to make a living,

trying to get my friend's movie made. And that being its own struggle that led to some really powerful revelations that ultimately served Sing Sing. And then trying to, you know, bring this movie to life, which finally six years into that journey of trying to branch life and developing, I realized, you know, I've been asking a question for a long time since Transpago's of what should I do next? and a lot of voices can get in your ear if you do that, because, you know, when you make a first film, I think it's an act of obsession, you know, pushing one rock up a mountain, you know, and whatever it takes. And if that rock happens to get to the top and roll down and you, and you have some momentum in it from a career standpoint,

making a next film, I think is, can be much more thorny and difficult to figure out because it's like, it becomes an act of discernment because now all of a sudden you have a bunch of other people who are trying to define you as an artist and pull you through their doorways. And you have to find sort of within yourself, like, what is my lens? What is my driving purpose? What is my voice in light of all that noise? And the final kind of breakthrough was asking a new question. And the new question was, if I could only make one more, what would it be? And that was never in doubt. It was Sing Sing. And once I could finally fully answer that for myself, things

started to move in a way they hadn't before. So a lot of what you're describing there is that once you go through the carnival of bullshit, will you or will you not compromise? And I'm, I'm, what were the kinds of movies you wanted to make even before Transpacos that you were like, this is the kind of, this is, this is a movie I've seen that I want to make a movie like this. Like, what was your, what were your frameworks? Well, um, I, I've never gotten to answer my letterbox, uh, favorite four or top four or whatever it is. It's coming for you.

Don't worry. Some there they'll find you. Well, I'll answer it now though, in case it never happens. You know, because those, these were, these were things that were operating on me and that were very strong influences. Like, you know, right when I was getting into film, two movies were coming out in theaters, like almost like back to back, or at least in my memory, they were, one was the two mamas on the end. And it was a film. Like when you watch it, it was like, Oh,

you can make a movie like that. And it's not something that you can really fully analyze or break down. It's just more like you can make a movie that feels like that, you know? And what I mean is like, it was like, it felt like this film that allowed the world to breathe into it. And it was a film that seemed like on a surface about the simplest things of like finding a perfect beach or, you know, getting laid. And yet it was also about the stuff of like poetry and it just knocked me out, you know, and the next film I saw kind of in that, you know, chapter of my life was, was once, um, and it was, that was a movie that just felt like they just got away with it like you know like that that that it was a bunch of friends who just said like fuck it let's go make a film

you know and and and kind of bucked a lot of norms in terms of its construction of like something so with so scarce resources could sing as loudly as it did even just like how they were filming it with a lot of like people who had never acted in a film before, but we're working musicians, you know, they hit cameras like across the street, you know, and we're shooting on these long lenses and just, they were moving through the world as if, as if there was no set. And oftentimes there wasn't. And something profound uh emerged from that i mean i just always remember like there's a scene where they um they finally get the mix like the mix down of

their album and they they put the cassette in the car and drive to the beach it's just a magical magical scene that just has so much joy and love in it i really can see the style and like in sing saying i i can i would have never put those two movies on a list of like this kind of thing kind of reminds me of this but like handheld camera and super intimate and close-ups and all both of those movies have a lot of that but on the other end of the spectrum though and i think maybe where you see trans pecos in my body of work like no country for old men is also a massive reference for me in terms of like this i think with that you know there's so much precision in that movie but it you know like you don't see the you know you don't see like uh all the the doctor's stitches all over it you know i think it's i think it's a perfect film actually and i and i love like

the way that they embrace the place that that film is set within and the people of that place and all of their odd eccentricities but yet it has a very like a story that's unfolding in it that's kind of like a runaway train that's coming at you. And it's just like kind of gathers this momentum and like the way that suspense, you know, is unfolding the patience of that. But then at the same time, like you don't walk away with it with like some defining, easy conclusion. I think it's a miracle of a film.

Is there a fourth? Do you want to round out your four? The fourth would be a bit more nerdy film school answer, which would be The Double Life of Veronique by Kieslowski. I just think, I mean, and the Three Colors trilogy, but just to pick The Double Life of Veronique, I watched that when I got this syllabus of films to watch. I was going to go to grad school at NYU. I ended up not going two weeks

before I was supposed to turn up, but I got the list of books I was supposed to read before arriving and these movies. And I started working my way through these films. And when I came across Kieslowski's work, that also, it was from another era, but it resonated so strongly. He's such a humane filmmaker, you know, and you feel that he also loves the places that his film is set within and the characters, but that he doesn't love them in a way that shields them from their own pain or their own flaws and allows those to exist in the same space as their beauty. And it's just kind of achingly soulful filmmaking. Those are great recommendations.

I feel like I don't have to ask you the usual final question I ask on the show, but I do want to know about Sing Sing. I mean, I'm always fascinated by a film like this getting financed. So you read the piece in Esquire, you were moved by, did you like make contact with, uh, uh, with the organization and try to secure rights from the magazine or from the organization? Like, how do you go about, there's a lot of participants and they're sensitive participants. Yeah. I mean, this was a community effort, really, in every sense of the word.

And I can break that down later for you. But, you know, in terms of matter of process of how we started, you know, I read that article eight years ago. And that night, I reached out to the journalist. I was very earnest and I'm kind of an earnest person. So it's not like a surprise to probably anyone who knows me who's listening to this, but reach out to the journalist that night and the theater teacher, Brent Buell,

who was a 10 year volunteer at RTA and wrote this kind of madcap time traveling musical comedy, breaking the mummy's code. That was, you know, at the focus of, uh, of the Esquire piece and also reached out to RTA. The first person I actually talked to, you know, was the real Brent Buell. And he was just kind of like, Hey, you know, we talked for a while, but at the end he was like, Hey, you know, if you want to really know what this is about,

you need to meet the men who really lived it. Like come to New York, we'll have breakfast at my apartment. I'll invite some of my friends over because he had kept these like really deep friendships with many of the alumni from the program who had come home from prison. Even several of them,

when they didn't have a place to stay, they would come stay with him and his wife janice in this apartment so already this apartment was kind of like hallowed ground in a way and clinton and i came up and we sat around this table i mean now in hindsight i realized that we were being interviewed just as much as we were exploring a story there that I think we were being evaluated of like, did we have the right, you know, um, stuff to, to come alongside these people and tell this story. But, you know, around that breakfast table,

like several of the people that are in the film were there that morning, eight years ago. I mean, the real divine eye who co-stars opposite plays a version of himself and co-stars opposite Colin Domingo was the first guy through the door. And then the real divine G who Colin Domingo plays was the next guy through the door. And we were just sitting at this table and like the warmth in that room, how distinctly New York it was, which was kind of delicious to my, you know, Texan ears and, and, uh, and the care, you know, uh, for each other, the banter, all of it, you know, it was just an energy that we walked away from that being like, okay, if we could

translate that somehow to a film, you know, we have something really special here, you know, and, and, and, and, you know, tried to just continue that posture of like listening first above all else, before we insert ourselves as filmmakers, you know, and that trust, you know, grew with time. I mean, ultimately, yes, we did secure many rights, you know, but it was always like, not just trying to extract and get a contract and paper to then go away and do our thing. Within these agreements and the spirit of what those agreements were, it was like, hey, let's do this together and let's try and everyone who's central to the story, like actually have a voice in what this thing is that we're making. As you and Clint talked about it in that earliest stage,

did you think that some of the people, the real life people from the story could potentially be performers in the film? Or was that something that occurred to you when you first met them? Or is that something that they asked for? Like, how did that develop? The instinct was always there,

you know, even around that breakfast table, when Divine and I walked in the room, I was like, well, that's a star. Like, that's a movie. You know, it's that. He is amazing. He's amazing.

And it's like that thing is the aura, the, you know, the magical fairy dust, you know, that makes some people stars and the rest of us, you know, the magical fairy dust, you know, that makes some people stars and the rest of us, uh, we're mortals, but we know it when we see it and we're drawn to it. And, uh, and I think it's not surface level though. It's like, he's got a charisma that's undeniable. Um, but he's also a very deep person and And he was someone that I was like, okay, he's got to be in that film.

But also, you know, within the rest of the program and even around that table, I mean, the talent is just so undeniable. And these are really trained actors that have been doing theater productions for sometimes decades through this very specific context, which happens to be the setting of our film,

which adds this other dimension of, you know, what we call lived experience of like, you're bringing not just value with your ability to perform a character, but you're also bringing this deep knowledge of not just how this program actually worked and functioned and what the nature of incarceration was for you, but how it all felt like as well. And so over time, and I think making our last film, Jockey, that Clint directed was also a big revelation for us because that was a film that took, you know, three actors led by Clifton Collins Jr. and Molly Parker and Moises Arias. And then they dropped into a real life working racetrack and everybody else in the film were real jockeys and trainers, you know, people of this community. And I wasn't directing that film, but I was producing and writing Flint,

but just being in the room for that, I just kind of kept thinking about Sing Sing. I mean, what if we took this and just sort of doubled down? How far could you push it? And now could the RTA alumni, who are always going to be an element of the movie, move to the center of the film? The film is shot on Super 16, tremendously intimate. it features these performers that we're talking about so it feels like you are inside of something that has like the essence of documentary but obviously is a story that is written and also about performance so it's this there's this interesting dissonance in that when you were developing it did you always know that you wanted it to be to have that distinct feel or was there a version of this story that was on sets and maybe had a different kind of a cast and maybe wasn't maybe was shot on digital or shot in a different

way all of this was an evolution you know really every one of those of those elements never came fully formed you know like we we were learning as artists, I was learning as a director, I was maturing as a person in time across these eight years. In hindsight, I'm extremely grateful that we never made any of the earlier versions of this movie. And,

or listen to a lot of the noise that we would get from the industry who would always, if there was anyone interested in this film at all, they would try to bend it and conform it to the stereotypes that we were actively trying to resist. You know, we had a lot of help, you know, like around like kind of pursuing like the intimacy, like, you know, there are people holding us to a higher standard who were part of this program. Like the real Brent Buell wrestled a lot through like any of the bad ideas that we had around the scripts, like kind of constantly fighting to like, allow it to be more true to the spirit, the real men in the program. And then our own education, uh, was really profoundly

unlocked when Clint and I became volunteer teachers in the program ourselves and sort of saw it truly with our own eyes. And you walk away from that. And at first, you know, you just, you try to, you try to synthesize all this research and conversations, experiences, and you, at least for us, we would go like, all right, we got it now. Like we're, we're storytellers. Like we're gonna, we're going to go put it on a page. And a lot of that, you know, would be try to invent, uh,

sort of things to channel things that we were really witnessing. And every time like we would read that script back, uh, or others would read it, it just kind of felt like an imitation of what the room really felt like and what the work really felt like. And a big like kind of breakthrough for us in that evolution of the story was realizing that if we're going to capture what it feels like in this room, it needs the development process needs to actually mirror how the program

actually functions which is a community again a community effort and we needed to sort of open our storytelling circle wider than just sort of the two of us and and that was in step with us you know having tried a lot of versions of the script and a lot of a lot of vessels like plot wise centering the movie on this actual friendship between divine i and divine g who we had come to know once we realized that okay this is the way the lens by which to like experience the story of the production of this play the first step we took was like okay well then let's bring divine i and divine g into the storytelling process with us to you know help shape what this is and draw from the

well of all these experiences they had and immediately just in those conversations like you could almost just turn a recorder on and then like transmit that to the script because like it had that energy of this back and forth of like how this program really felt and then when holman came into the project with us after like very soon after that, we didn't have a new script yet. And the invitation for him was like, okay, you can bring all of the, all of your sort of facets of, as an artist, as you're an actor, but you're also a writer, you're a director, you're a director you're a producer like build this character with us help shape the story with us and we adapted to this really interesting development process where we would we would have conversations with the divines we would then sort of write a handful

of scenes and then Coleman would get on zoom with divine eye and they would read these scenes colds and then we would break them down and discuss them. And so like we were writing and rehearsing at the same time, you know, and then we would go write some more and then we would come back and rehearse. And by the time we were getting to pre-production, we had almost like a zoom cut of the film or at least the spine of the film. And, uh, and we're able to like enter with a lot of confidence that the dynamic of this friendship at the heart of the story was really gonna, was really gonna soar. is this undercurrent of teamwork and competition when putting on a show.

And Divine Eye and Divine G and what they mean to each other, and you can talk about it maybe in real life, but then there's this added complexity where you've got Coleman, who is going through this amazing moment in his career right now, and is becoming more and more recognized as a star and a really gifted performer. And then Divine Eye, who in the parlance of movie watching like steals the movie you know like when you're watching the movie you're like who the hell is that guy and so that competition that you sometimes feel in the film like how does does it manifest when you're making a movie like

this when you have someone who's like coleman who is, you know, in a, in a different class, so to speak, then a lot of the performers that he's working with in the film, does that surface? Like, am I, am I right you're right. Like he is, he is at the, you know, he's got the full access to his powers now, you know, he's been doing this for 30 plus years. He is both having finally a moment where he's getting the roles and opportunities, befitting of his talent, and he knows what to do with it, you know? and what's crazy is he actually shot this film in 19 days with us in between the color purple and pickups for rustin literally without a day to spare like left the set of color purple and left our set directly for washington dc to do the washington mall scene of that movie and so like the timing nature of like, now he's an Oscar nominee and all that was brewing, but it hadn't like occurred yet.

And he could have walked onto this set and kind of bulldoze his way through this, you know, cause he could just kind of take over everything. Everything is, he has like the ability to do that and just pull the camera and all the attention to himself and that's what i think so profound about his performance is that he can command a screen and does so in this movie but he is also equally generous as a performer and allowing other people around him to shine i think that's a very rare combination that,

that usually is in conflict, you know, somehow it worked together in this movie and he really backed Clarence and, and supported and believed in. And I, and there, there's a, I think the best way to view, like, how did this work together is like to view it like alchemy you know and and and and an exchange like where both both of those men as well as the rest of our ensemble allow themselves to both at the same time be a teacher and a student you know because coleman could come in clients had never been on camera for in a movie in a narrative film. He had a documentary that he was a subject of when he was in the program. Coleman was able to help him make that transition. Not just the obvious ways of like, okay, it all happens in here, but in more subtle ways, he supported Clarence you know in terms of like finding the the kind of long

uh conversation when you're building a character that that's across you know all these weeks and like how the jumble of all these scenes and how they fall on the character on the calendar and and how to like sort of stay true to like where you are in the current of a role um and clarence in turn is like this is what it's really like you know this is what it felt like you know this is what it felt like for me is what it felt like for many of the other men i was in here with and and coleman had the humility to sort of receive that and be able to harness that and use that himself, you know? And so it wasn't competitive in the room. Yes. In the, in the story of the character, like what's great about them too,

is like they're guys like both the real divine G and divine I, as well as Coleman and Clarence are two people who probably wouldn't have found each other or, but become been friends outside of this experience. You know, they're approaching each other from totally opposite ends of this experience. They're approaching each other from totally opposite ends of the universe. But somehow through this work, the work of the original production

of Breaking the Mummy's Code between the real life friends, Divine Eye and Divine G, and then the work of making this movie between Coleman and Divine Eye, they were able to realize that they fit together in really unexpected ways, you know, and could see each other in very, very special ways. And that's kind of the gift of, I think, the creative process, you know, and I think now you'll see like Coleman, really, I hope they both get their flowers, you know, like, cause one doesn't exist without the other. It's the dance.

It's the dance of it. And I hope that they're both celebrated. And I hope that this whole entire ensemble is celebrated because something insane happened on location in the Hudson Valley between all these men. Yeah. I didn't, I don't, I'm not encouraging you to make the Sing Sing expanded universe, but at the end of the film, I was like, to see what what happens to them how what is their friendship like in the real world you know like that their their connection is is so uh deep and palpable and very unique I'll be honest with you like I didn't see the film at Toronto um I only just saw it you know

a month ago I had been kind of following its story as I do. And I know that it was independently financed and eventually acquired and you had a premiere, but you know, like Coleman's other film, you know, Rustin was also premiering last year and that was a big thing. And this was sort of like the other Coleman Domingo movie. And I read the log line and I was like, this sounds like Sundance-y and treacly and I don't know. And I kind of, I went in kind of skeptical and I'm sure you've had other people say that to you, or maybe when you were pitching the idea in the room to Hollywood executives, they were like giving you that look too. And I just was so like moved and knocked out and impressed. And it feels like this has been like a really long journey. I mean, this is now

like almost a year since the world first saw the movie and you still have all this runway to go with it. It's just now expanding. Like what is that experience like where something you spent six to seven years conceptualizing and then making, and then it's kind of seen, but not really. And people love it, but did enough people love it and do enough people know about it? And then you have to spend even more time selling it to the world. Like it's sort of a meta question, but I'm always curious when you get caught up in this process. I mean, just walking back to Toronto, if we can focus on that and then maybe speed up through what's happened since, but like, you know, we went into that festival a little nervous because,

you know, Toronto can kind of be like Netflix. There's a lot there, you know, and you could get lost very easily, you know, and no one was talking about us. You know, we were not in any of the curtain raisers, you know, you know, no, no one in the press was, was really writing about it. And if we were mentioned at all, it was, yeah, it was Coleman's other film at Toronto, you know, and, and these two strikes were going on at the same time. And it wasn't, it was a small conversation more from the sales side, but from us as filmmakers,

kind of, there was no question that we would sign this interim agreement so that our cast could actually travel there because we had this intuition that you put these men in a room in front of an audience after seeing the film and something electric would happen. Not sure what exactly, but we had that belief. And the other insanely challenging thing that we had to pull off, as soon as we found out we were accepted, we hired the top immigration attorney in Canada because all of our alumni who have a criminal conviction on their record are not allowed to go to Canada. And so we had to apply for these special permits that took months, months to put together.

And for the men themselves was like the equivalent of going from the parole board. Again, the things that were asked of them, the things that they had to reveal about their lives, the personal statements, the letters of recommendation, just to travel to Toronto for these two days. And we had 13 alumni in the film. Six felt like they had the desire to go through that gauntlet and put together these applications. And we didn't find out until two days before the premiere who cleared. And five of our six were going gonna get to travel and which is you know we were told was an amazing result um but immediately you're thinking about the sixth man who's like staying home and i had to be the one to call him i landed in toronto and um and and he picked up the phone

like so you got bad news for me you know and i was like i do but it's not fair you deserve to be here with us and you will have your moment i promise you that you know and then we're putting on the suits and jumping into the black cars and like going and saying but that was always there you know um in the room but then like i just remember like you can't see it was packed, you know, it's the oldest continuously operating theater in North America. You know, like it had like, you know, it had like a feeling in the room. It was kind of buzzing. And as soon as that thing started, it was like, that audience felt every ripple of the movie, you know, like the little jokes got a laugh, the big jokes got a roar, you know, the,

the, the deeper emotional stuff like it was like you know like quiet a level of silence that was like palpable you know and then and then the tears and all it was just everything was happening in that room and then the credits started and this like roar started happening for each man in the movie and then would quiet down because we have some like archival scenes like not to spoil too much that are really quite wonderful at the end that everyone wanted to hear. And then more credits would come in, like this war would start. And then we came out on stage and I brought out like the first man and

everyone was just on their feet and just the shower of love on these guys that would not stop. Like Coleman had to make everyone sit down, you know, and we were just like, we kind of just floated out of there. And we were like, what, what was that? You know, what happened? And then by the end of the week, you know, we had this distribution partner in a 24 who saw this thing that, that we felt in a really specific, personal, intense way.

And they were going to go for it, you know, like go all in. And then we went silent and dark because it was going to be a 2024 release and seven months go by with like, not a, you know, like certainly things were going on in the background from the studio side, but like, we weren't discussing it in the press. We weren't screening it at all. And then we relaunched it South by Southwest in March. And the big fear was like, was the thing in Toronto, like this lightning in a bottle moment, you know, has it gathered too much dust on the shelf now?

And, you know, will it connect with people in the ways, like just the nature of time and how it passes and how, you know, like, I don't know, we didn't know. And then when we were premiering at South by, it was like two days before the Oscars for Coleman, when he was nominated for and he flew out here on Oscars weekend to be there for the premiere, which I think says a lot about what he believes about this movie. And he helped introduce the movie for us before the movie. And I brought him out and he got a standing ovation before the whole movie started. And I was like, what, what is that? You know, what does that mean? And then afterwards, like,

it was like that same kind of communal feeling, which is like joy and a, and a knowing of like some of the universality around, like maybe just how shitty the world feels right now and how within the story of these men that despite the environment that they were in, they could still choose to see each other, to have love, to, you know, care for each other was kind of a balm, I think, for a lot of people in a room, you know, and that has just continued to then multiply at this kind

of breakneck space pace that is now bringing it to theater. And I'm like, I don't know, we'll see what happens. I'm happy for you guys. It's a very special movie. And, um, you use the word alchemy earlier and I'm, is alchemical like if this had if this movie had come out two years ago maybe this doesn't happen in this what you know you just never know um it's an incredible achievement uh i wish you luck i think you're probably going to get some awards recognition and i wish you luck in that as well i hope a lot of people see the movie i do end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen you've already given me four great films but is there anything you've seen recently

that you really like? I would say Challengers. Tell me about it. I just, I saw it while we were like, we snuck away. We were out on tour with film. We were in San Francisco. My producer Monique Walt and I snuck out to see it.

And it's just like the vibe of it is awesome. You know, it's sexy. It's as a former athlete myself, I just love the dynamic and energy of the way that they toy with each other throughout the mind games of it all. But then just like some of the film grammar of it all. But then just like, you know, some of like the film grammar of it too is quite astonishing as well. And I was just like,

I was like, oh yeah, this is why I come to the theater. Like it felt great to be in that room. Greg, congratulations. Thanks for doing this. Thank you, Sean. Thank you to Greg Quedar. Thanks to Amanda, obviously.

Thanks to Alea Zanaris. Thanks to Sasha Oshel for filling in for Bobby Wagner on the show. Thanks to Jack Sanders. Next week on the show, as I mentioned, we'll discuss the new Apple original film, The Instigators. We're going to build the Matt Damon Hall of Fame. Are you ready for that? Yeah, is that just us or is anyone coming along?

Okay. What do you think? We can do it. I believe in us. Matt Damon has a lot of good movies. I'm a fan. I put together a stack of physical media of all his films. What time will that social media post go up just so I can be that first like. Good question.

Did you ever like anything I've ever done on social media? Was there ever a time? As a point, I do not like anything having to do with your physical media collection. As a point to what? Like a point of principle of like, that's your fetish and that's your thing and you go with it. But I like everything, every time you post to Alice. You are morally bereft. I want you to know that because you don't understand art.

Thanks for listening to the show. We'll see you next week.