The Big Picture - ‘Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse’ Is Here to Save Us

Episode Date: June 2, 2023

Sean and Amanda are joined by Charles Holmes to dive deep into the ‘Spider-Verse’ movies, from the breathtaking animation to the bold storytelling to the expectation-shattering standard they set. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Charles Holmes Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome to a golf podcast unlike any other. This is Fairway Roland on the Ringer Podcast Network. I am your starter, Joe House. Every week on Fairway Roland, it is myself and our PGA Tour correspondent on the ground, Nathan Hubbard talking all things professional golf, amateur golf, amateur betting, professional betting, amateur drinking, professional drinking by Birdie Buddies. If you want to hit them straight out there, please check out Fairway Rolling every week. Available on Spotify.

Get groceries delivered across the D GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessy I'm Amanda Dobbins and this is the big picture a conversation show about spider-man and girl and pig and creatures and all kinds of spiders and also a spider Charles Charles Holmes one half of the midnight boys here of What's up? Oh, thank you for inviting me on to talk about an amazing, amazing movie. The birds are singing. The spider fluid is thwipping.

I can't wait. We are, of course, talking about Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse, which, Amanda, as you know, is the sequel to Into the Spider-Verse, the 2018 masterpiece, a movie that I loved, that in fact I swapped to you on a movie swap a few years back. I have been eagerly anticipating this movie for a long time.

It actually was, I think, originally supposed to come out about two years ago. And we've been waiting and waiting and waiting. And I'm so happy to talk with Charles about it as well, since he is an expert in this field

of both comic book storytelling and animation. And I'm pleased to report that this is a five-star film. This is easily my favorite movie of the year. I had an absolutely emotionally, deeply gratifying experience. Sean turned to me during the credits and said, and I quote, this is the first five-star movie in at least three years. I take issue with that, with the timeframe and this being the only five-star movie.

Wait, is tar not a five-star movie? That's exactly what I said. You know, maybe we'll make an allowance for tar. Is this movie better than tar, Sean? Admit it right now. I got two totally different things out of the films. But you know what? They have a lot in common.

And I'd like to explore that today. Okay, amazing. I think there's like a tar licorice pizza across the Spider-Verse triumvirate in the last few years. And that's pretty much it since the Halcyon days of 2019. 2019 was a great time. We had multiple five-star films. This movie, for so many reasons, just scratched my brain.

It just smoothed me out, just eased me down. We saw another film that we will not speak of today prior to this film. That film was significantly less successful, though very similar. And so because of that, I'm sure that we were kind of coasting on the high of it. But I adored the movie, Charles. Clearly, you described it as amazing. It sounds like you loved it as well. Oh, I cracked a smile. And my girlfriend always, like, asked me when I get home, like, how's the movie from the screener?

And from the Midnight Boys, I generally have to watch a lot of MCU DC. And I'm just like, I just go, like, for, like, 20 minutes. I'm like, terrible. What am I doing with my life? I need to be freed from these chains. And this is, like, the rare time where I was just like, my life has been changed. Like I believe in cinema again. I believe in the power of sitting in a dark room. It's really nice to hear you say that Charles. And I, because Sean was going through a very similar vibe yesterday and has for the past few weeks. Post Little Mermaid? Right, Little Mermaid, Fast X.

It's been a long run. And I would just say, as someone who spent another 12-hour day with Sean yesterday, I don't know how this keeps happening to me. It's brutal. I can give firsthand reports that things were getting a little messy

in the 1 to 4 p.m. area, you know? And then after the unnamed movie that we saw, there was just like some, you know and and and then after the uh unnamed movie that we saw there was just like some you know deep life uh lessons and talk that we needed to go through and then sean saw across the spider-verse and was like we did it we're so back we've never been so saved in all of our lives it's amazing i'm obviously i think i'm like slightly overstating the the meaning and power of this movie but not that much like it really is if we have to live in a world where comic book storytelling and then reliability of ip is at the center of this thing that we cover every week on the show this is what is possible to me this is what it could be it is

is it like the most perfect version of multiversal storytelling? I'm not even sure that that exists, but you said that to me. That's what I was going to say. Yeah. And I want to hear what you think about it, Amanda, because I know that you, I thought you were very generous in watching the first film and the way that you reflected on what worked about it. This one, I'm curious how you feel. I'm just trying to find anything that I can latch onto in any movie at this point. That's not fair. I thought Across the Spider-Verse was absolutely wonderful. I thought it was aesthetically so beautiful.

And Sean and I saw it in an IMAX theater. Just these large, beautiful images and color and like really paintings, you know, just like vibrating across the screen for two hours and i am not usually one to thrill to animated films as uh has been discussed uh much to the chagrin of basically everyone on this podcast podcast except for chris ryan yeah my friend forever um but i'd love to talk to you guys a bit more about this because this to me just comes alive as art, you know, like, and, and, and I mean like fine visual art where I'm like looking at brushstrokes and looking at the different compositions and the way that they're putting, um, the different styles and how they're using that to inform characters and, and, and storytelling

or whatever. But just, just to look at like, you know, beautiful colors is it's like that, I know that sounds simple, but that's also at some point what speaks to me. So, yeah, tremendous. I didn't understand all of it. And we can talk about the multiverse a bit. We can talk about the storytelling and I think fan service a little bit. I got the metaphors. I got the message.

Lovely message. I really like what this, I guess this franchise, this mini franchise, whatever you want to call this, what will be a trilogy of films, is doing. But I don't understand the,

I don't understand the multiverse. Well, let's, I'm sorry. Let's have a three-laned conversation here. I think it's probably theme, plot, and then structure animation. Like maybe we should start with the animation. Since you clicked to that, and I clicked to it, and theme, plot, and then structure animation. Like maybe we should start with the animation since you clicked to that and I clicked to it. Charles,

I'm sure you did too. But I now see these two movies. I saw the first film as basically an explosion of what our expectations were for animated movies across the board. Forget about superhero movies. Forget about kids movies. This was something entirely new. This movie quadruples down on the shattering the conventions and expectations of traditional animated movies while also still keeping it in a kind of like a conventional framework where there's still plot there's still characters you're following it's not abstract art but it is using elements of abstract art and it is also using very clearly like the textured comic book panels that folks like charles and i are very familiar with and connected to, but also using the power of digital animation and the expansiveness of it.

And it's impressionistic at times. There's a villain character in this movie that I think creates some amazing, almost like Salvador Dali-esque understanding of the way that the world could look if you think in a more absurd fashion that seems a little like high-minded but it's very fun the way that it's executed so i like it honestly stole my breath several times while watching the movie and it moves fast but it is not like chaotic tiktok nonsense so i was amazed i looked over at you after um the, there's an intro, like a kind of a, like a 10 minute sequence that follows Gwen. Gwen.

Yes. Yeah. I think we can say that without spoiling anything, but it's kind of like a contained story to not, and, and has a very distinct animation style as well. And when it ended, I looked over at you and you were just like,

eyes up, mouth open, like, Oh, I can't believe that happened. You know, it was very, it was very pure. Actually, I loved it. I just, I'm like really touched by the creativity of this movie. Charles, you know, we talked about animation a few times on the show in the last year or so. What'd you, what'd you make of it? The first thing that I was thinking was when I saw the first five minutes, I was like,

this movie almost in my brain is like how it felt watching like Avatar, The Shape of Water, where I'm like, if these movies are going to be, we're going to spend five years and we're going to come back and show you the breadth of what we can do animation wise. I was like, then I'm in. And what I think the first movie did is that it opens you up to this world of like, why are these type of movies, these CG movies made like this? Why is it all based on models? Every Pixar character looks like every other Pixar character who have these house styles. What this movie does after we get this explosion of movies that are like, we're going to look like Spider-Verse is they're like, no, we're not going to think linearly anymore. It's not just enough to make

it look like a comic book. We are going to make every world you go to look like a different artist is drawing this. So instead of it being like, oh, I'm opening up one comic book, to me, it felt like being a boy at the comic book store and seeing those long boxes and looking at like Bill Sienkiewicz, who was an artist that they heavily inspired the spot on. There was parts where I'm like, this looks like a New Mutants comic. Or like when you see Ben Reilly, a 90s comic book character, he talks like a 90s comic books character. It looks like he's drawn that way. And I'm just blown away because I'm like, it's almost as if they made a hundred mini movies in one movie where every single character has to have their own style, their own gravity,

the way they walk, the way they talk has to be different. And then when we go to the world, when we go to Gwen's world, it looks like the first appearance of that character that I remember reading in comics. The purple hues, the very like almost

neon impressionistic brushstrokes. It's sort of like watercolors, you know? Yes. The paint dripping. French 17th century painting. Paint dripping, the strokes. That's where I was like, oh no, they are doing the James Cameron thing, but in animation being like, no, when we come back, we want to be able to show you all of the cool things that we've built.

Yeah, I feel like for Charles and I, we have a familiarity with those varying visual styles from the world of comic books. And that there are distinct eras and distinct artists that you can see. Like Steve Ditko and Tbilisi and Kicz. Like those are two radically different styles, but they they're in conversation with each other. Like you don't have that as a context. So is it more of like an explosive, like where do I train my eye thing when you're watching a movie like this? No,

not really because the, I think the film does an incredibly amazing job of still making all those distinct styles actually speak to each other and be whole as opposed to just looking like a very bad collage that like a fourth grader made you know all respect to fourth grade art um and and the film also to your point about the lineage like makes that literal it like brings in the different issues and it just cuts for a second but for someone you know it's not like I saw the various spider comics that they're referencing for like half a second and was like oh of course the work of Steve Ditko but I was like okay I get it you're pulling from different things here you're making

the references like explicit but still not weighed down it's all very light on its foot i would also say that like comic art is at this point like a major part of like a you know american art and and and so maybe the specific references are are not obvious to me but i I recognize, you know, what a 60s, you know, Spider-Man looks like versus the, you know, the cartoon that like flashed upon my TV screen in the 80s versus, you know, like it all comes together in a, like it's the lexicon now. Yeah, it feels like it's kind of collating all of those styles and in some cases just showing us them to make us feel like, to give us an Easter egg moment. And in some cases it's talking to them. Like obviously Lichtenstein looked at comic books from the forties and fifties

and sixties, and then regenerated his vision of like American artistic intent ideas, like social commentary through that art. And then comic book artists looked at Lichtenstein and then iterated on that. And then this is a movie that is kind of absorbing all of its influences and then shooting it literally through like you know through webs through spider webs you know obviously there's something childish in that but there's also something kind of beautiful about um like the expansive world of art like that when we talked about the first film that was what we talked about we were like

this is a film about color this is a film about expression this is a film about feeling told through animation i want to go back to color for a minute and also recreation because i was sitting there watching this film thinking about how how beautiful it looked and also understanding that they were like in a way recreating these comic books that you guys grew up reading but also not recreating like and and i thought a lot about mcu live action movies which i think look like absolute garbage um let's go and but charles i've even i have even thought that like before you know the great quantumia like breakdown of something. And part of the conversation that Sean and I had on the first on the podcast that we did about Into the Spider-Verse was like was really about like this house style of Marvel comics or comic books and the color palette.

And so often, like even after Endgame, where I think the last 45 minutes looks like, you know, a wizard threw up. And Sean is like, but that's what it looks like. That's the palette in the comic books. And they're the live action, you know, or whatever those versions, those recreations feel so flat and dull and ugly and don't add anything. And what these animators are able to do in terms of like grabbing up all those references, but then making them feel fresh and alive and like look like actually beautiful is like incredible. That is like a genuine artistic achievement. Do you think we overrate this Charles,

because we're comparing it to exactly what Amanda just said, this sort of like, especially this period in MCU and DC understanding, but just in general, that live action comic book storytelling or any fantasy genre storytelling just could never achieve the kind of creativity and expansiveness that something like this can. Oh,

I don't think we're overrating it at all because i left being like oh the thing that i think this movie shows us is that there there are actual house styles at marvel dc today like this is something that throughout their throughout their run throughout the decades it would be like, okay, if we get a new artist from XYZ country, this is how you draw Superman. And each couple years, you get the outliers who are just like, I'm not drawing Superman or Spider-Man like that. The type of Jack Kirby figures who are like, I'm going to make my own world. And I think superhero storytelling, Fast and Furious, all these places, they've gotten to this point where it's like, no, we're doing the house style because we can get any director to come in here, any cinematographer, and all of this stuff is going to be previs. You may get a James Gunn, you might get a Watiti, but nine times out of 10, it's going to look like shit because anybody can like, you're filling a chair. And what I think this movie shows you is

that this is a love letter to those artists that are not the house style artists at Marvel in DC. This is a love letter to the guys who are like, oh no, I'm going to do something that you either love or hate, but you're going to have a feeling for it. And that's actually what I think is missing from not just superhero movies, just action storytelling in general now, where it's like no one wants to be like, how can I make this look different? How can I do something that is so radically either ugly or beautiful that you feel something?

Instead, it's just like, hey, the bills due. We only have this much for a CG budget. Here are some ants, yeah. Here are some ants. Be's some ants be like be happy y'all you know there's a lot of ants you know what's so interesting about this too is that this film while it is very much comes from lord and miller and the sensibility the script the script it's co-scripted by lord and miller and dave callahan former guest of the show who's i think one of the like smarter people working in this um space in terms of writing characters

like this and it has a major lord and mill sensibility. And we can kind of talk about the writing and the characterization in terms of like gag a minute and moving very quickly and very like deeply sentimental, but also incredibly irreverent at the same time. But there's three completely new directors on this movie after the last movie, which I find so interesting. You know, the first film was directed by Bob Paraschetti, Peter Ramsey, and Rodney Rothman. And this movie is directed by Joaquin Dos Santos,

Kemp Powers, and Justin K. Thompson. And you can see, based on the histories and the work that those filmmakers have done, that they all have a different role in the direction. Kemp Powers, of course, is the screenwriter.

You know, he wrote One Night in Miami. He wrote Soul. He comes from a journalism background. He's a person who's clearly focused, he wrote One Night in Miami. He wrote Soul. He comes from a journalism background. He's a person who's clearly focused on character. Justin K. Thompson, I think, has worked as a production designer. Joaquin Dos Santos worked in animation. Like, they bring different things to the table. And this is something, this is unusual.

We don't see this. We see it, obviously, far more in animation. But we don't see it in very many movies where there are different people in charge of different departments and if this doesn't have that same insanely a tourist bent that i am obviously quite fond of but in certain cases i think can explode the paradigm of movie making and when the movie ended last night i mean i turned to you and i was like i'm not even sure this is a movie this feels like a new something now obviously it's using a two hour and 15 minute framework to tell a story of a character who dresses up as spider-man that's a movie i get it i understand that but the way that the story is told and the um wild divergences of expectations

against the storytelling and the just the way that it looks because of what you described charles where you're sort of like okay we're in one house style and now we're pivoting to another house style. And we've moved from one decade of a look to another decade of a look. We're looking at the Spider-Man 2099 character. We're looking at Jessica Drew. We're looking at Spider-Girl. We're looking at all of these different sensibilities that are all coming together. Set aside the fact that I'm trying to like invent a new mode of storytelling here as I talk through how much I like the movie, just the sheer degree of difficulty of executing and making all of those things, if not logically coherent to someone like you, Amanda, at least you can say, wow, this is so, it's so admirable how they were able to accomplish it, you know? I'm genuinely awed by

the amount of like effort, time, and thought that is required to pull something like this off. Which was intentional, right? Like this movie was delayed, right? And, you know, typically, and Sean, you and I are guilty of this. Charles, I'll, you know, absolve you. But when something is delayed or it needs more time, it's just like, uh-oh, things are going wrong. Uh-oh, they don't know what they're doing. These dummies couldn't bring it in on the deadline, etc. And that's not true. I mean, it takes time to do good things. It takes time and money and resources.

And I think we would all be served to remember that. Yeah, Charles already intoned the way of water and the fact that it took so long for that film to finally get on screens. I think that that film is reliant on archetypes too much and this movie uses archetypes as a trampoline but the same thing has happened here which is that the extra time that has been taken has been put into the care of crafting the movie and that serves the audience like that is for the audience that's not for the animators to work harder over a period of time it's to make a better work of art and it it it worked i'm i was i was

pretty impressed i it's interesting how to talk about like what this movie is actually about because there's the plot and then there's like the feeling and the ideas that it wants to communicate the plot feels more or less like simultaneously a conventional comic book story plot, but also one that's trying to say like, fuck story book plots, you know, like, fuck whatever you think this is supposed to be. How much spoilering are we going to do here? How much specifics? I think at a certain point we need to get into the details in part because this is, you know, this is kind of an Empire Strikes Back kind of a proposition, this movie, you know, that it's like we're going to put all of our angst and our big storytelling decisions inside of this trilogy. And we're going to leave you hanging. People know that. This is part one of a two-part story.

I also don't know how much the specifics I'm ended up in can spoil for people. Certainly not the Easter eggs. But, you know, I was going to say that it explicitly names canon as like one of the major like themes but also like literally one of the villains or like forces that um miles morales is struggling against so you know it's like right there on the surface in a but not in a stupid way or an obvious way, I found it very touching and accessible of, like, this is a character who was not the first Spider-Man and that, you know, and that people, bad actors, might not have accepted immediately as Spider-Man. And so, you know, who can be Spider-Man was also the first, the theme of the first one in a lot of ways. And it does it

like very deftly while also like just naming the thing head on, like right there. Yeah. Well, I mean, Charles, maybe you can remind us like where the first film left off and where this film is picking up to kind of explain how they tell this story. Cause it isn't, it is not a simple and straightforward story. It's, it's, it story. It is multiversal for sure. Yeah, so I think the first movie, what it does is it's essentially saying that, all right, here's this young Afro-Latinx kid who watches his universe's Spider-Man die.

And the proposition of that entire film is that through the course of seeing all of these other spider men and women whether it's spider gwen or spider ham he needs to figure out what it means to be his universe is spider-man and what this movie kind of pushes us into territory of is okay very existential heady questions of like what does it mean to be Spider-Man? Is the thing that defines them tragedy, whether it is their Uncle Ben dying

or someone close to them dying? Can you change that? Can you really be a Spider-Man if that major tragedy isn't part of your story? To your point, this is a very impressionistic film. The way I've been trying to square it in my head is it's almost like the feeling you get when you're in high school and some of your friends either start moving away or the friend groups start changing or you're not invited to a party and you're like, wait, why wasn't I? What it, what is it? It's like almost like watching Miles realize

that like his friends from the first movie are going away to summer camp and he can't go to summer camp. And he's like, wait, why can't I? Why don't they want me? And I was just like, this is like such a cute and clever way to talk about so many things,

whether it is race or identity or puberty, but in this multiversal context yeah i liked um you know the movie opens with miles simultaneously on top and at the bottom where he he is your neighborhood local spider-man and he is fighting bad guys and solving crimes and feels very confident in that despite the fact that he's just a teenager but he's also never been lonelier we basically lonely he has no friends that this world of friends that he made in the first film are off doing other things after that that introduction to to where gwen is that you talked about amanda and he is at this kind of crossroads of his life

where he was like i don't i'd like to meet a girl and spend some time with her, but I don't, the girl that I like doesn't live in this universe. You know, I'd like to hang out with my homies, but they are off in another edition of Spider-Man comic that is written, being written elsewhere. And that's obviously,

you know, in the end, the Spider-Men were us, you know what I mean? Like the whole point of the movie is like, we're all kind of Spider-Men looking for a connection you know we're all kind of alienated from the experience especially when we're teenagers so there's a kind of a universality to where he starts where he goes from there though obviously then gets really expansive they introduce us to

this character um who is attempting to rob an atm called the spot who is voiced magnificently by jason schwartzman and the Spot who is a you know a canon Marvel character since the 1980s a D-lister a D-lister not one of the top which is one of the things

that I like about this because when I saw when I was watching the movie I was like I think I know the Spot but I couldn't even place it it wasn't like in the first film

where you see Kingpin or you see the Vulture who makes an appearance in this movie or you see the Green Goblin or you see Dr. Octopus or Olivia Octavius in the first film for example you're like i know these characters i remember i

saw the sam raimi movies or i've seen them recent marvel films the the ability to take a character that has largely been discarded and then use them as a portal into telling a story like this i thought was really interesting especially because that character uses a lot of self-made portals. Let's see what I did there. And so we meet this spot character and Spider-Man has to defeat him. And he kind of sort of does, but he doesn't. And it creates like a traditional supervillain versus superhero archetype story where it's going to be these two characters

have to meet each other and fight. And then we think we're going to go through the story and he's going to keep getting stronger and stronger and Spider-Man has to keep fighting him. And that does sort of happen. But everything that happens in the middle of the movie, which is what Amanda was talking about, which is creating this level of expectation

for what a superhero's story should be or what any person's story should be in terms of like, you can't change the past. You have to go forward into the future. It's critical to showing us all of these different strands of reality. It was so resonant for me, in part because of this other movie that we saw,

that I thought so deeply mangled the exact same idea that maybe I'm not in the right headspace to even analyze a movie like this because they're just a tale of two cities. The other movie was almost exclusively garbage and many Amanda Science quarters will be presented in the future. They're just the tale of two cities. The other movie was almost exclusively garbage. And many Amanda Science quarters will be presented in the future to explain the inconsistencies in the other movie. Gee, can you guys guess what it is?

But this, of course, this is much better in comparison to that. But also, I didn't understand at some point the mechanics of, let's say, the location in the third act. And where all of Spider-Man's friends were gathering together. And what Oscar Isaac was doing. And what he was watching on a screen. like it didn't matter it like that's okay like storytelling wise it did not totally make it clear to me on a mechanics level but like i got it and i understood it like emotionally and i understood the themes you know i some of it is just helped by like I I kind of think spider-man is the best superhero that's so he just is and it's like the most understandable it's like a teenager just trying to like figure it out and like deal with things and when you're

a teenager the stakes of whatever you're dealing with are the most heightened and you really are trying to figure out who you are in the world so I'm like i get it and i and i understood all of the things about race and identity and and you know canon and and family that it was bringing in like do i understand the seven portals or the 45 portals or like frankly where spot went for the middle third of the film because he just kind of disappeared no but like who cares uh here's what i wrote down to discuss specifically around this so charles tell me if you think this checks out so this story and world is kind of purposefully ornate and confusing but while there is a logic to it it has a little bit more in common to me with back to the future or the matrix in that if you spend a lot of time thinking

about it, you may become more confused by how the world's logic operates. But if you turn yourself over to it and to the sense of forward momentum in the story, it will actually be more enjoyable. Now, that's probably something you could say about a lot of movies like this, but I think a lot of movies like this don't earn that sense of trust. And so I guess, I guess Charles is, do you agree with that? Do you think that people will find this as Amanda has slightly confusing in terms of how the pieces all fit together? See, I think that it's almost,

you can read the movie like that, but because the movie has such a honest emotional core. Yeah. If you think about it, the first third of the movie is very brilliant where we see Gwen having these teenage difficulties with her father and then we go right to Miles and it's very much the same there's like action but there's there are parts in this movie where I was just like oh this is weirdly some of the most honest storytelling I've seen about what it means to be a teenager.

Because instead of it making it seem like the adults are idiots, I was leaving like, no, like Miguel has a point. Like spider, like Peter B. Parker has a point, but so does miles.

And like raising a child is very important is his point. And, uh, well communicated. This is an amazing girl dad movie. Yeah. I got to be honest. Like really one of the best girl dad movies I've ever seen.

As a father of a daughter and a son of a mother. Really good. I was sitting there and I was like, Sean, where does this rank in the canon of a father who has a daughter movies for you? It's really high. And then also, you know, this is very specific to me, but what an amazing son of a police officer movie this is. Jesus Christ. I was thinking about that. I mean, it's such an alarming convergence of things

that are relatable to me and interesting. I would like to say there was one mother of a son scene, which I found incredibly emotional and I did tear up. So there is, you know, representation matters for all of us in the spider. I got guys. When I was watching the movie, I knew I was doing this pod with you. I got very much.

You were, you were spider woman, the pregnant spider. Well, who's just like dealing with the kids. Yeah. And you're just like, look,

I cannot help you if you fuck this up. And I'm like, that's Amanda energy. Like major, Jessica, major Amanda energy. She's so cool. And then as a, help you if you fuck this up and i'm like that's amanda energy like major jessica major amanda and then as a as a weekly listener of the big pic i'm just like sean has become peter b parker yeah like when so there's the whole thing of like yo like when he's telling me i was like yo like look

at these photos of her i'm just like sean is gonna love this movie so much we i mean amanda and i turned to each other while that was happening. Because we were doing it right before the movie started. I know, we were. There were some new hairstyles. That baby, that animated baby was so cute. And I just, the little spider mask, the spider hat. The spider beanie.

Yeah, the spider beanie. Oh, my God. Great, great comedy. A plus stuff. It was really, really weirdly touching in terms of how much it was speaking to me. Confusing almost. You know, like sometimes you watch something

and you're like, whoa, they really got inside my DNA here. The first film has a lot of that too. I thought the movie was really good on the Stacey and her dad relationship and just, not Stacey, Gwen character and like her relationship to Miles, her relationship to her father.

Like Gwen is a little bit of a, a little bit of a Mary Sue in the first movie, you know, a little bit of a, like you get some of her, you see Miles's interest in her, but the movie is told deeply through the eyes of Miles. This movie is, it's not, it's Miles's movie, but there's a lot of Gwen

and Gwen is like a critical part of the storytelling Hailee Steinfeld voices Gwen she's terrific it's kind of an A plus voice performance movie for me this is something

that has obviously become very common in animated movies in the last 20 years to hire very well known people there were a couple moments when we were

kind of like who is that who are we trying to figure out who is voicing which characters but that also is a part of

making a great film is directing actors to give great performances and so of course they have oscar isaac and isa ray and all these really people that we already like but oscar isaac is giving a really good performance in this movie totally you know and like that matters because his character is so critical in terms of miles's journey that it just it just sells a movie like this more. Yes. It does. That is... I don't know what he was... I mean, I understand he was enforcing the order. Do you want to start hard-spoiling the movie?

He was like, time cop. I get it. Let's spoil it. I feel like I can explain this in a very simple... I'm so glad you're here, Charles. Spoiler alert. Bobby, can you please play our special spoiler? This has nothing on Van's special spoiler alert on the Midnight Boys, but it is our version of the spoiler.

Spoiler warning. It's just an homage to Van. It is an homage. I did the best that I could. It's our mid-journey AI art version of Vanans. Spoiler warning on the mid-journey. Wait, whoa, I'm being relegated to AI now? Damn. Well, isn't the voice AI?

That's true. Is that your voice? Yeah, no, no. It'd be amazing if it was my voice, but no, it is Siri. Charles, how far back do you want to go in terms of explaining the plot of this movie? Are you going to start from the very beginning? I think we can just start from the middle part, because I think we kind of hit the big, like, about miles not feeling accepted when we kind of did that but

the driving force of the story how i understood it is that miguel o'hara spider-man 2099 this is in the future he is spider-man in the first because of what happened in the first movie this guy found a loophole where he could go to another dimension, replace himself, and have a happy family be a happy Spider-Man. What we soon learn is that if you break canon events, if you are from another universe

and you stay in your wrong universe, it's going to destroy everything. And the whole driving force is like, Miguel being like to all these Spider-Men, he's taken all of them back to his world, which is 2099 world. And is like, Hey,

we need to stop these basically like incursions or whatever you want from happening. And miles whole thing is like, I need to save my dad. Yeah. His cannon event would be the spot killing his dad and Miguel is like dude if you do that you are going to destroy your entire universe we need to stop you where where was your confusion Amanda in terms of like that mix I got that I I think at some, the last 20 minutes where those stakes are explained and, you know, you know that Miles' dad is going to die in like two days if he doesn't get back.

So there's even, you know, some constraints. Yeah. And then it's basically just a chase. It's a chase, but I think I know where you may have gotten confused. Yeah. Um, it's a chase, but I think I know where you may have gotten confused. So in the first movie, Miles is bitten from a spider that is not from his universe. And Miguel basically is like, because you got bitten, you're an anomaly. Right. You're not a legitimate Spider-Man.

Yes. There is no Spider-Man in that other world. When Miles jumps into that basic, like portal, it sends him back to the world where that spider was from. And essentially, he's meeting himself without a Spider-Man in this world because there was no spider to bite Peter Parker. It's evil. He's become evil. And Gwen showed up in his universe looking for him. So basically no one knows where Miles is because they didn't learn about this loophole of like, of course the signature for this dimension

would send him back to where the spider was originally from. Right. Are you following that? Yeah, I follow all of it. I honestly think part of my problem, or not part of my problem but this all of that happens and and spider-man is like and miles is missing but he's also like in the nether regions like on a ship fight you know and people are chasing him that's in the 2099 world that's in that is in

oscar oscar's world right right okay but so you're watching like a chase happen at the same time that you're flashing to the other thing and you don't know what's gonna happen and then it cuts because this is one of two parts okay i mean so more specifically we're in 2099 yeah this is where all of these hundreds of spider people have gathered. This is where Oscar Isaac's character is running this entire apparatus of defeating these incursions that Charles is talking about. There is a device in that space that transfers spider people back, or any creature, back to their home version of reality right but this spider-man this miles morales spider-man's version of reality is from the universe where he was bitten by it is from where the spider that bit him was from which was earth 42 now this sounds insane the way that i'm talking

about this but that's obviously not how that's obviously not where his parents are that's not where his family is but that is where it sends him and when it sends him there he is then confronted by another reality of his uncle right and then another reality of himself because that's not where he's from right so where he's from is where gwen is at the end of the film right and she can she sees his parents and no one realizes where he is and he has no way to get out of this new reality that he's in he's never seen before right so that gwen realizes she isn't sure where it is though she doesn't know which one it is she doesn't know it's 42 as far as i can tell right charles i i took it as she does not know and also miguel and them don't know and here's the other confusing thing. They don't set this up well,

but like as a New Yorker, the way I would explain like Miguel's world, all those Spider-Men are in the Barclays Center, right? When Miles Morales jumps out of that shit, that's just New York. That is just like the world. This is not space. We're still on Earth.

It's just the future. He's like running through Brooklyn. Right. Like there's no like- It's literally called Nueva York. It's called Nueva York. They are not in like some extra dimensional where all the Spider-Men is. No, they're just

in a stadium where all the Spider-Men are. It's just another reality. And this is a series of realities. But here's the thing. We've just had this five-minute disquisition on the bizarre modern storytelling surrounding IP-oriented franchises. And what I'm trying to say is it doesn't really matter that much.

Yeah, and I understood that it... I was like, this doesn't matter. I don't really know where they are. I think one hurdle for me, I'm realizing as you guys are recapping it, it's like too many numbers, you know? I was like, I didn't show up to this film to just be cataloging various numbers and timelines. That's fair. I think if you're a seasoned comic book reader, one thing that this movie does really well is that it literally puts the panel phrasing on the screen very briefly.

It's not trying to say to you, like, you need to track that we're in Bulgaria now. You need to track, you know. And when you're watching it, there are lots of visual cues so you can mostly understand that they're in in different places unless to charles's point that like well the film isn't trying to trick you but the confusion is part of the plot of where they are or where they aren't so that's right so it's like pretty easy to to tell and follow and it doesn't totally matter except for i did not realize that this was just going to be a straight cliffhanger with a part three coming out. Oh, see, this is the reverse of my Dune experience. This is the reverse of the Dune experience. And so when it's just like to be continued,

the stakes do a little, if you don't totally understand and then they're like, nah, you just got to wait. I was like, oh like oh okay i'm glad you brought this up and i wasn't mad and i don't think that that undercuts like the achievement of it just my experience of being like i don't totally know but i'm sure they'll like resolve the emotional beat that is the thing that really matters and then and then they did it i want to talk to charles about this too um because my feeling about this is not and this came up in our fast x conversation and of course we talked about it with dune i i did have an awareness that this was coming in part because the original title of the film i believe was across the spider verse part one and they changed it so that part two would be called beyond the spider verse so just even knowing great seo by

the way it's it's not but another example of like they're they're saying fuck it to the wind which i love i just love that they're not fuck it to the wind which I love. I just love that they're not as concerned about that. A movie that has Spider-Verse in the title is going to make what a hundred million

so it's like That is true. It was just very hard when I was like Googling the cast you know to find like the right cast list and not the one from

previous or future. Into across and beyond these are mild differences. Nevertheless I knew that it was coming and so it wasn't bothering me. I also thought it was kind of setting up the stakes in a meaningful way.

It was the inverse of the Fast X way where I actually don't know because the story so exploded my expectations where they would take this and what is coming next. Obviously, I think Miles will be okay. But otherwise, I don't know what the actual stakes of the story are going to be

unlike at the end of a Fast X where I'm like, all right, well, gosh, I wonder if Don Toretto is going to survive this crazy journey. And so it didn't bother me at all. And I intone Empire Strikes Back because I think that it is much more in the lineage of a story like that, which is like, let's bring everybody as low as we possibly can after we've gone through this fascinating journey with them before trying to figure out if we can return to the Jedi, our final installment of this film. Charles, what did you make of the cliffhanger aspect of the story? I did bump up against it a little bit because this movie is two hours and 20 minutes, I believe, which is insanity for an animated movie. It is. It's very long for an animated movie. And that did not bother me. It was more so I was just like,

I was like, wait, how are they going to end this film? Because I was like, it's been two hours and I'm like, we're still in the middle act. I'm like, are they going to land this plane? Are they going to land this plane?

And when it ends how it is, I'm like, oh yeah. I did know that this was part one of a part two. It did not ruin it, but it did make me think that I'm like, if I was going to ding this movie, the original Spider-Verse felt like a movie. It had a beginning, middle, and end.

Everything was wrapped up. Emotionally, I felt great. And this movie, I was just like, oh, okay. Well, to get my emotional thing, I'm going to have to wait another five years and I'll be 35. Will I still have that like,

will I still have that? You guys could probably tell me. Sure. How do you weather that? Storm's like, will I care in five years? I reserve the right to change my opinion about this

if there are nine Spider-Verse movies. That's something I'm going to say out loud. If they hold this to a proper trilogy of Miles Morales movies, and then they don't, and you know, that probably wouldn't be good business, but I would appreciate it artistically, then I will feel differently about it. I'm willing to accept, not only am I willing to accept, but I actually understand the desire

to do a cliffhanger ending on a film if you've got intentionality behind it. I would like to reiterate, I'm not mad. And I don't think it undercuts what they did. For me, it is the difference between, as Charles said, the first movie just being like a contained movie and like with the beginning, middle and end and incredible like visual achievement. And this starting to feel a little bit like, you know, the fan service comic, like Amalgam. That's just kind of where you can see a little bit of, maybe not even the seams showing,

but like the machine starting. And I think that's fine because that done well is like an you know an incredibly difficult thing to do and it's something that matters to a lot of people but I was like oh okay I see like we're we're just on the we're we're back on the superhero machine a little bit and I think when I say that these are feel not really like superhero movies, I mean that as a compliment and I didn't mean that

in comparison to everything that has come in the last 15 years that I haven't enjoyed. And you just kind of feel the playbook coming in a little. That's all. I think you're right.

I think that's a very valid concern and frustration. I didn't even say I was frustrated. Stop putting words in my mouth. Wait, I mean, can I say why I was frustrated? Yeah, of course. To Amanda's point, like there were parts in this where I was just like,

the first movie felt very special because it was like in a corner where nobody knew it was going to work. And then it did. Yeah. And there are points in this movie where I'm like, oh no, y'all are thinking like, damn, what if we don't get Tom Holland back? What if we don't? So like you Tom Holland movies when they're doing these like, oh, it's your destiny to have Uncle Ben die. We see like Andrew Garfield crying over Uncle Ben.

We see Tobey Maguire. And I got the sense where I'm like, oh, Sony knows this works now. This is now part of their Spider-Man universe in a way where the first movie didn't feel like that. And this does not ruin the movie in any way. I so enjoyed this movie. It's one of my favorite film going experiences

of the year. But I did get that feeling of like, we're getting a little MCU-y here. Back off. Leave my girl alone. It's a fair perspective. I'll give you what my perception of it was.

I think, obviously, No Way Home walked so that this movie could run, right? They had to set up a viewer expectation that you could just throw lots of different versions of Spider-Man at an audience and have them be willing to accept

even the idea of a multiversal Spider-Man experience. By the way, I really enjoyed No Way Home. Wonderful movie. I liked it as well. Charles, a little less so. Yeah, okay. Amanda, have you re-watched

No Way Home? Of course not. I'm a grown-up. Exactly. I have a job. I have bills. I wish I was you. I have bills?

Yeah. What does that mean? Bills are keeping you from watching No Way Home. Maybe if you watched it while you're paying your bills you might feel better okay

I wish I had Amanda's bills I wish Amanda's bills would have stopped me from rewatching that movie I actually haven't watched it twice either and that's something I'm doing more and more

frequently these days is not revisiting Marvel movies I feel great about it it's actually very healthy for me I will revisit this movie but let me just go

let me just go back to the point that you were making which is I saw that sort of in more in the spirit of Lord and Miller movies, which are the evolutionary Mel Brooks or Abrams Zucker movies. It's like these are like sight gags and like acknowledgements of what we are sort of satirizing, parodying, or building upon and not as escape hatches

to future worlds in the event that we lose our actor for our future franchise. Yeah. I could be wrong about that, but it felt more like, hey, we're all, these are the biggest movies

in the universe. We all know this stuff. Let's all laugh at it the same way we could all laugh at Spaceballs riffing on Star Wars 35 years ago. And I like that

and I love Mel Brooks and I love Airplane. I love airplanes. So to me, it felt more in concert with that than it did some cynical corporate gambit to make sure that just in case Tom Holland only wants to make prestige Apple TV dramas, that we can still have Spider-Man movies. They'll do whatever they want with Spider-Man. Amy Pascal, Avi Arad, these people are going to make Spider-Man movies until we're all dead. So it's not that there won't be more of these things. It's not that there won't be more of these things it's not that there won't be sequels it was that the people that are guiding this movie are at least doing it in a way that has the right sense of humor the right

tone the right willingness to poke fun at itself in a way that I liked I loved the Donald Glover cameo I knew what it was I know that there's something kind of cheap about stuff like that but if the joke works, the joke works. And to me, the joke worked. So I think I have maybe a little bit more ability to forgive some of those things if they seem cheap. But I liked it in this movie. The Easter eggs did not bother me because the ones that I got, I got.

And the ones that I didn't get, which I would guess for a majority of them, like flew by, you know, and it doesn't matter. They aren't that sort of James Gunny, forgive me. Hey, look, it's the joke. We all have the joke together, you know? And then I enjoyed the jokes. Was the baby powder thing just like a world joke or is there a Spider-Man joke as well?

I thought it was very funny as like a joke. Oh, that was my favorite joke of the movie. Me too, we laughed out loud. But I was like, is there any, like there's no like in world. No, that's just a joke. Yeah, it's just a joke oh that was my favorite joke of the movie but i was like is there any like there's no like in world no that's just a joke it's really funny there's not a baby powder joke in spider-man comics that they're like we're riffing on this that was just them being that's actually what i liked about the film because i was like this actually reminds me of like the comedies that i liked when i was growing up where it's like even if if a joke fell flat, there was a joke like two minutes later

that like graded so well that I just, I was just like, all right, cool. Like this is what I want. What does this script even look like? It must seem insane. I mean, the animation is flying so fast

and the characters are speaking so rapidly and the jokes are coming at such an extraordinary clip. I don't even know what, I think that's part of my kind of like wonderment at the movie. I'm like, how do you do this? Like, how do you write this? And then how do animators look at that script and say,

I know exactly how to do this. Obviously it's painstaking and wildly collaborative, but I'm impressed. You know, I'm not easily impressed, honestly. I'm at this stage of my life and it's been a tough few months on this podcast for me as I've watched a lot of shit that I

think I care about look bad or not move me at all and I think that's ultimately what it boils down to like I think what you're saying makes complete sense I think the

things that you're bumping on Charles are very understandable it's just a feeling like sometimes you just feel it and you described my my mouth agape after the first

10 minutes of the movie yeah your childlike wonder it's a beautiful thing but I'm just like I'm literally grabbing my heart first 10 minutes of the movie. Yeah, your childlike wonder. But I'm just like, I'm literally grabbing my heart at certain sequences of the movie because it just looks so beautiful or I laughed so sincerely. And that's a real power.

Now, it's individual perspective. It's just me, 40-year-old man, girl dad, reader of comic books, lover of Spider-Man. I had the same feeling because also, weirdly, as much as we're saying there's jokes a minute,

there's a beautiful restraint about the movie in the first 10 minutes where they could have packed a lot of jokes into that. But there are certain moments where it becomes a painting that makes you feel how Gwen feels or how her dad feels. And they don't do the thing where they're like, we're going to over-explain or do like the MCU version of this sad moment. They're like, no, this moment is just going to be sad and you're going to sit with it. And I'm like, I had to remind myself, I'm like, this is a children's movie. And it wasn't like a Pixar thing where it's like, all right, this is the time to cry now, guys. Like we're talking about X, Y, Z. No, there was just moments in the movie where they just let the art speak for itself

and you just felt how the characters felt. And that was enough. I think it's really well put. It's not saccharine. It's contemplative at times. It's a really fast-moving movie, but there's another

similar moment where Miles is sort of alone on a rooftop and it's slow. The movie really slows down. And the music, which is kind of convulsive throughout this movie,

Daniel Pemberton's score and some of the needle drops is really loud and noisy. But when they cut it all out and it becomes more like looking at a painting, lets you slow down, lets you think about what the themes are, which are not announced, even though they are kind of like discussed. Like we see there's a lot of conversation about parents and their children and what parents want for their children and what children want for themselves. That's a big part of this story. And, you know, the Jeff and Rio characters have a lot of space to express themselves in these movies. You know, the parental figures and the idea of like what your parental figure means to you. And the potential loss of them because that's obviously critical to the spider-man story is really interesting on the flip side there's a moment during the mad dash through the 2099 spider portal where one spider-man is on the therapist couch talking to a spider therapist and telling a tale of his trauma and the therapist is like let me guess guess, your uncle died. And like, it's so knowing about...

It's genuinely very funny. Yeah. It's funny. There is a similar joke in the other film that we saw yesterday, which was one of the knowing high points of that otherwise very bad film. But this one is done so...

Just light of, you know, light touch. Yeah, no, totally. What did you, what did you, is this movie going to be like a big success? Is something I'm kind of curious about. Because the first film is obviously beloved. And its fans are like true blue fans. And it did very well at the box office. But it did not do, to your point, Charles, what Spider-Man movies do at the

box office. You know what I mean? Like, it's not a $2 billion movie. It's an animated movie that is somewhat confusing, I think, to general audiences. And it is kind of an art piece. You know, it's not alienating from the consumer, but it is different from the normal animated superhero movie. Will this be bigger than the original, but it is different from the normal animated superhero movie. Will this be bigger than the original, do you think? What do you think, Charles? Oh, I think it'll definitely be bigger

than the original. Now, will this do like Super Mario numbers? No. Will it make more than Elemental, which is also coming out? Hell yes. Like this is, I think, what this movie is actually doing

is that I don't know if there'll be more movies to follow. But like when I was a kid, there was that middle type of movie that was for like you're not 15 or 16 years old, but you're not like five or six. It was like animated movies that a 12 year old would like. Like there was in my screen, there was like 13 year olds who were like laughing and it was cool enough. Like this was something that they could vibe with and they just don't like, of course the bottom fell out of like dramas and comedies. But when we talk about like animated movies, if it's not for five year olds, it's just not getting made. And this movie I think will do well because it's like, what else is there out there for that 12 13 year old kid to like watch it's such a good point i never hadn't really thought about it in that way what is like an

example of a movie like that that you saw when you were a kid charles like titan ae what do you like yeah those type of movies like those dreamworks movies or even if you think like as much as we like to think oh like shrek was a kid's movie like shrek was the type of movie that like i knew who eddie murphy was and my parents could enjoy it but i could also be like oh they're like the humor is a little bit more disgusting it's a little bit it was sort of for everyone that movie yeah yeah where we don't you don't which a shrek movie even be made today and i'm not saying of course they're gonna make sequ sequels like maybe Donkey's going to get a spinoff soon but that type of movie that is like for that 11 year old I want something that's speaking about like girls but also has like action and shit I love you guys so much but I feel like

every movie is made for 12 to 14 year old boys right now no offense not animated movies live that's what happened live action movies actually took that over in a pretty meaningful way. Which, you know, teenage boys are doing fine here in America. We're not dying for content. But hey, Amanda, I'm doing my work because Bobby, shout

out our new workout podcast. I'm in the gym trying to get my trainers to go see Barbie. There were a lot of scoffs. That's beautiful. Thank you so much. I'm just like, guys, no, we should go on a trip to see Barbie. I'm trying to get my trainers to go see Barbie. There were a lot of scoffs. Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you so much. Yeah. I'm just like, guys, like, no, we should like go on a trip to see Barbie. You know, I'm trying to get more of these movies. There we go.

Who's guys? Who are you referring to? You have a whole cadre of people you're going to bring to Barbie? I'm trying to get everybody in the gym to go like support, you know, this film. Let me say something. Since you brought up Barbie, I just want to say, the reports from people who are not online, aka all my friends, but Sean, is... What the fuck, man? I said that you were my friend.

You're online. We talked about this. That's your choice. If I was one of your friends, I wouldn't want to be in the online, the two online group. That would hurt. Yeah, I know. That was a stray shot. I'm here lifting spirits on this pod. But you and I talked about your online group. That would hurt. Yeah, I know. That was why she just that was a stray shot. I'm here lifting spirits

on this pod. But you and I talked about your online presence. Whatever. All the people who are just like my normal civilian friends are like, non-letterbox users.

Hey, Barbie looks pretty good. I'm excited to see it. So there you go. Were any of those people the producers of Barbie? No. No, they're just normal women out in the world who talk to people, you know, unlike you. I don't have any of those.

Yeah. No, unfortunately for me. My wife is one of those people. Of course, she's the ultimate sounding board because she's like, I don't know. What are you talking about? I'm not online at all. She couldn't be less online. It's fantastic.

Does your wife have any feelings on Matt Healy and Taylor Swift? She has no fucking clue who Matt Healy is. She couldn't care less. All right, this is burning up my household. Oh, Bobby. She's living my dream. Your wife is just living my dream. Just not knowing who Matt Healy is at all.

Just the greatest possible. I actually need to call her immediately after this is over and be like, do you know who? Do not shatter that for her. I'll start with, do you know what the 1975 is? That will be my first question. don't do that i just can't believe that this is my life where i got worried about what taylor swift's two-week boyfriend said on a podcast you know like i just i can't i but here we are this is the you created your own fate i didn't you spider versed your way to this bobby's generation created it you You know, I was just out here.

Damn, Bobby. I have to be blamed for this? You went to the heiress tour, you know? That is true. I didn't. I'm just old. My morals are completely compromised. And now I, you know, I don't know.

You got to lift it up. You took a shot at me because you're lashed out a little bit. Now you're, you know, you're spinning your wheels like I was on the last pod about the existential despair of talking about Taylor Swift's boyfriend. I thought I held it together for 60 minutes talking generously about an uplifting film. You did. And then what happened? You got the Brooklyn Boys came on the pod here. Sorry, me and Bob.

They're both shining. They have crisp cuts in their glasses. They look like they're ready to go out and get a nice Italian meal in the neighborhood. But they want to talk to me about Barbie and Taylor Swift. July 21st. July 21st, 2023. It's going to be me and Charles. We're going to work out at noon. Barbie at 2.30.

Dinner at an Italian restaurant and then Oppenheimer at 9. Let's sneak in two protein shakes right in that middle. Keep us hydrated. This is what I'm talking about, Bobby. I was going to say, what's available on the Italian restaurant menu? Will you be in a bulking or a cutting phase? Probably still bulking.

You got to be bulking when you're getting into that. Chicken parm, of course. Chicken parm. Extra spaghetti on the side. Chicken parm. Hell yeah. Start off with some garlic knots. Just get those carbs for them.

Come on. I'm really hungry. Guys, this was a Spider-Verse podcast like five minutes ago. What does Spider-Man eat? Oh, I guess the beef patties. I was like, yeah. I love that.

That was really great. But I was like, otherwise I'm not really sure what Spider-Man eats. What does he eat? No, that actually, that bothered me a little bit because you put the beef patty

into the microwave and if you've ever been to a bodega and seen their microwaves, there was like no plate. There was no covering. And then he spider, like he whips it with the webbing. So I'm like, now you have webbing on your beef patty. I've always had questions about this. Like, does the webbing leave a mark?

You know, there's some confusion there. Also, you know, I've always loved the metaphor of the webbing for the maturation of a young teenage boy. It's really wonderful stuff. Stan Lee, absolute fucking pervert. Always enjoyed that about him. I think his movie's great. I would recommend it to anybody. I think it's absolutely wonderful.

I think it's going to do really good business. I think it will do better than the first movie. Obviously, there's going to be a third movie regardless. I wonder how long it's going to take to complete the third movie. I guess it's dated, right? Is it supposed to come out? Is it next year or two years from now? I thought I read next year, but.

I don't even know because I was watching an interview with the directors and they not only seemed very exhausted, it almost seemed like they were kind of like, we're not going to announce that we're going to need more time for this.

But like looking in their eyes, I'm like, there's no way. It's dated for March, 2024. Wow. That's no way. It's dated for March 2024. Wow, that's so soon. That's great. I don't know. You don't believe it? If this is another two and a half hour movie,

yeah, I don't know. I'm just going to hit the note one more time that it's okay to take your time on these films. That I certainly don't mind waiting an extra year if you can deliver this um and i promise to no longer concern troll films that have been pushed back that's a solemn promise to the listeners of this show to you amanda to you charles to uh the king of bulking bobby wagner uh we if a movie is pushed back we will assume it is for a good reason sean join us on this reason. Sean, join us on this journey. Why don't, like, join us on this bulking phase.

I've been trying for years. Just trying for years to get them. No. As you guys know, I have horrible, my back is just, it's just a shell of a back. It is just destroyed.

And after all this travel, I've realized. There are ways to strengthen your core to support your back. Yeah. The more muscle you add, I've gotten this, listen to strengthen your core to support your back yeah the more muscle you add I've gotten this listen

it takes away the pressure on the spine right with the I have back issues too equipment anytime who's the oldest person

on this pod right now who's got the most miles under his feet is it me I think it's me so because of that I have a wisdom about the human body

that you cannot yet understand. You have wisdom about many things, but how to exist in the physical world in any plane is not one of them. You do have to accept the fact that- I just had to shepherd you through multiple airports and countries reminding you to eat and stretch. No, I am like a ninja monk i am i am so trained in the art of getting across town like you can't even believe how strong i am until it all breaks down at the end of the day that's the thing is i can i can do it and then i lose it and then i have to i need two days to recuperate yeah nevertheless you do have to accept the fact that 12 years from now

you and amanda are going to be doing pilates together and videotaping it for your patron again. So I'll take the equipment over set, shut up and then leave. I want no part of that. You know, just like doing a pod while doing Pilates. Yeah, that's your 12 years from now. Bobby, we're going to sidebar after this. We have a lot of physical activity podcast that I think need to be. I'm just going to be covered. I'm just gonna be up.

Couldn't be me. I'll be sitting in the movie theater sitting in an IMAX watching Across the Spider-Verse one more time. Charles, thank you so much.

Thank you guys. I had a blast. Lovely to see you. Please listen to The Midnight Boys, one of my favorite shows here at The Ringer. Thanks to

to Bulk God, Wags, for his work on this episode. Next week on The Big Picture, Amanda and I will dig into

another one of the best movies of the year. Really exciting. A very romantic film. A very complicated movie that I think requires a lot of emotional unpacking. I'm feeling like maybe the same energy as the Marriage Story episode

that we did many years ago could return for this film. It's called Past Lives. It opens in limited release this weekend. Check it out if you can, and we will talk about it next week. We'll see you then.