The Big Picture - ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day’ and the Spider-Man Movie Rankings

Episode Date: July 31, 2026

With great power comes great responsibility. That’s why we brought in Van Lathan to discuss the fourth installment in the Tom Holland–era Spidey series: ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day.’ They break down what worked for them and what didn’t work and sort through what it could all mean for the future of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Later, they debate how it stacks up against the rest of the franchise and rank all 11 Spider-Man movies. (0:00) Intro (1:08) We are returning to American Cinematheque's Friend of the Fest! (2:16) ‘The Thomas Crown Affair’ trailer reaction (8:14) ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day’ (SPOILER WARNING) (1:03:56) The future of the MCU and box office predictions (1:30:07) How our taste informs our relationship to different genres (1:41:28) The Spider-Man Movie Rankings Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Van Lathan Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh It’s on Prime. A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.®️ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Oh, man. Shop back to school at IKEA. I'm Sean Fennacy. And this is the big picture at conversation show about Spider-Man, Spider-Man. Does whatever a spider can. On today's episode, we will be joined by Van Lathen to talk about Spider-Man brand-new day. The fourth installment in the Tom Holland-era Spider-Series will break down what worked in this movie. What didn't work, if anything, didn't work?

And what it means for the future of the MCU, we will also rank all 11 Spider-Man movies. But first, let's get into some movie news right after this. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. One of the best things about streaming is that you never just pick a title. You pick a feeling. And Prime makes that easy. With great entertainment and fast shipping that brings the moment to life, Prime helps you experience the feeling you're craving.

Shows you can't wait for and deliveries you don't wait for. One click away. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime. Okay, Amanda, to start, we have a programming announcement. Yes. So, we are returning to American Cinemitex's Friend of the Fest this year. Together. Together, you and I will both be there.

August, 25. Fifth, 7.30 p.m. What film were we screening? Out of sight. Directed by my beloved Steven Soderberg, starring George Clooney and Jennifer Lopez. Really can't wait. Have any two actors had more heat between them in a film? Arguably, arguably not. You're also returning to Friend of the Fest. Are you not? Yes, we are doing The Matrix Reloaded. The entire Midnight Boys Poo Poo Poo Squad is going to be there. And what day and time is that? Do not remember. This information is available online.

Buy tickets. Come see us. Come say hi. We are very excited. We've been. This is our fourth time, I think, doing the festival. We talented Mr. Ripley. Yes. Gone Girl. Oh, I was reading Gone Girl. I missed Michael Clayton. Yes.

Thank you to the Venice Festival for shifting back a week. Thank you, the Labor Day, for being as late as it is this year. It is very late this year. Yeah. Let's start with some movie news. I'm glad you're here for this movie news. Okay. So there was a trailer for a new film called The Thomas Crown Affair.

Yes. This has been a film twice before. This is a reimagining 30 years, later and 60 years later of the Thomas Crown Affair. The second film in the series. Yes, the Thomas Crown Affair, parentheses 1999. Yes, that is a foundational text for Amanda Dobbins. Directed by John McTiernan.

Wow. Yeah. Starring Pierce Prasnin. Renee Russo in her early 40s, just absolutely throwing 100 miles an hour in every sense of the word, including Topliss. Yes. This movie. I'm sure she was in her late 40s at that point.

Maybe almost 50, right? Am I tripping? I thought maybe 43. Oh, okay. But she is on record saying that she, if she didn't propose the top list scenes, then she was like very game because it was a really use it while you got it philosophy. Preserve the beauty on screen. I really absolutely endorse and respect. Relatable.

Well, I wish it were relatable in my case. I think we're all hoping that the stars. That clip, I'm over it. I think we're all hopeful that the stars of this new film will have the same feelings about putting themselves on screen. Michael B. Jordan is starring in and directing this new version of the Thomas Crown Affair. Adrire Hona plays the female lead of the film. You and I did get a chance to see some footage, not exactly what has been released when we were at CinemaCon in April. This is the official trailer release.

I need to go to you first because of how much the second film means to you. What do you think? I welcome it. Please make as many heist movies about billionaires set in internationally renowned cities as you would like to make. I just thank you and I'll see you in March. Okay. This is not complicated to me. It's not like the Thomas Crown Affair in 1999, you know, is there will be blood.

It is a remake. It is a little bit cheesy in just the right way. You know, they have sex on the marble stairs and they like dance at Chippriani's and then he folds the painting into a briefcase, but it doesn't totally make sense because they cut the shot where you take the frame out. Anyway, we're not defecutive. the highest art of cinema. What we're doing is having fun at the movies. And I can still do it. Okay. Can you do it?

Sneaky ambitious swing for Mike to me. He's been in a lot of movies that have been very successful. But a lot of those movies that are very successful that he's been in are like sinners is a genre film, right? It has all kinds of things to buy. The Creed is in the Rockyverse, Black Panther, whatever have you. This is a movie where you have to go see this movie. for Michael B. Jordan, and he has to charisma his way through the entire thing. Well, he just won an Oscar.

He did. So, like, what I'm saying is, in this case, this is where, really, this is the movie where you drop your nuts and you go, I am in this gigantic, huge film when she was dripping with charisma in centers, right? Both characters had a different type of charisma. But now you solidify your claim as the number one guy if this movie works and and is successful. It's a really, really bold and exciting movie star move.

Because this is as close as he's likely to get to James Bond. It's interesting. It's from the same studio that also has James Bond now. I guess this is, you know what to remind me of the trailer a lot is Tenet. It looks a lot like Tenant in terms of the way that the action is scaled and styled. Hopefully it has a little bit more narrative coherence for the general audiences at home. This is a pro Tenet podcast? No question.

No question. The pro-MBJ podcast? I don't know. I got a lot of feedback from people who know how much the 1999 version means to me. And they were excited for me. And then I saw some other people saying, are we sure, you know, this is a risk? Blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't really understand that mentality.

Just accept the big budget heist movie from a major movie star, who's also a director. I agree. I'm looking forward to it. Any, any Adjira-R-Hona thoughts? All of them. She's so beautiful. She gets it done. That's the respectful way of saying what your thing.

thinking. But I like honestly, that woman even in which so she was in the father of the bride remake. Isn't that right? On like HBO Max or whatever. And even in that not very good movie, I was like, who is this woman and what's going on here? Every time you see her, like begging to be made a star. One of those interesting people that if we look back at her career five to 10 years from now, like we're going to say it was right there for her to become a major star. It just needs the right role to pop. to get to that next level. Yeah. I don't know if she's been better

than she was in Hitman. She's amazing in Hitman. She was very funny in Splitsville, which came out last year. I don't know if you saw that movie. Did not. You know, she... It's funny.

You might like it. You might like it. She's about to be an onslaught that's new Adam Wingard movie that looks very kind of Terminator inspired. And it sounds like she's Wonder Woman. Yeah. Because that hasn't been confirmed.

It sounds like she is. Oh, cool. Yeah. She's playing a role in Man of tomorrow, I think they won't really say what the role is, but it seems pretty likely that she's wondering. Is her name Diana? Well, there's

taught that there might be a different character that like exists. That's a different Diana? Not different Diana, but it's like a different character. She's plain titherto. But I think that it's a red herring because I think he's probably Well, is Nicholas Holtz-Lightier. Did you ever see that photo?

Did you see the photo of them? His suit suit is similar to Buzz Lightier's suit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you're talking about the worst. The war armor that looks Lutheran wears. Yeah, it did look like there were some copyright infringements there. We're going to talk about, man, tomorrow a little bit near the end of this conversation about Spider-Man because I've been thinking a little bit about the long road that we are on and will continue to be on.

Okay. What will work and what won't work. But let's transition away from the news and directly into Spider-Man brand-new day. This is, as I said, the fourth film in the Holland Spider-Syter series. It's the first one directed by Dustin Daniel Cretton. This is not his first Marvel project, of course. He directed Shang Chi. He also had a huge hand in the Wonder Man series

that came out earlier this year. This new movie brings back Collins, Zendaya, Jacob Bottalon. We have some new faces who've not appeared in Spider-Man movies before. John Bernthal, Tramel Tillman, Michael Mando, who has been in them and is back.

Mark Ruffalo's in this film. And I think we're probably just going to put the spoiler warning right now. Spoiler. Spoiler. Spoiler. If you haven't seen this film, we're going to talk about not just what happens in it, but who is in it? And one thing that they've been circumspect about that everybody knows, but they're not supposed to know, but they are supposed to know, is that Sadie Sink is in this movie.

Right. From Stranger Things, and she is playing a significant character that we will talk about momentarily in the Marvel Cinematic Universe to come. I really, if you don't want to know who's in this movie or what's happening, turn it off. We're not going to abide any of your complaints. I think it will be difficult to talk about it without just. being direct about all the events. I can only even understand this criticism.

It's starting to get on my nerves. You have to talk about the movie. We have to take what happened. If you don't want to just go see the film and then come back and listen to the podcast after. Yeah, the good news is everyone's going to go see this movie. This is going to be one of the biggest movies probably of all time. If they didn't already see it at our incredibly oversubscribed

and unprofessional screening. Okay, so the story of the movie, following Dr. Steven Strange's spell at the end of the film Spider-Man, No Way Home, the world has forgotten that Peter Parker exists. Four years later, Parker anonymously protects New York City as the hero Spider-Man and investigates a power. new threat while his superpowers undergo a surprising and potentially dangerous evolution. Amanda, I'll start with you.

Why not? Guess first. Well, because he's sharing thoughts on the Midnight Boys, you know? It's your show. Thank you. Thanks. Yeah, remind everyone listening at home. Well, I think this is the least successful of the Tom Holland movies, in my opinion.

Wow, fascinating. And I say that because I have just rewatched all of them. I prepared for these rankings that we're about to do. I have rewatched every single of these movies except for Spider-Man across the Spider-verse in the last week. So, and all of the Tom Holland ones pretty recently. And I think some of it is just the saved by the bell, the college years aspect of it all, which is he is no longer a teenager. And he has moved on in his life.

And so the essential Spider-Man magic, which is, just a kid trying to figure life out and trying to figure out what to do with his great power. and great responsibility and just, you know, can your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man have it all? Which is, it's perfect, the character. And the further you get from that situation. And the more you have to bring everybody, like, back into place in sort of baroque ways,

the less room you have for what makes this Spider-Man. And Tom Holland, specifically, who I think is probably my favorite Spider-Man and is wonderful. But you just have less room for him because he's got to be alone and sad. And you have to set up whatever the hell new franchise that you guys are going to talk to me about

at great lengths. So, you know, I'm not there to be like, oh, what are they going to do with the X-Men? I'm there to be like, oh, is Tom Holland going to get to talk to Zendaya and his bud? You know? And like, oh, Marissa Tomey still looks really, really hot and flashback. And maybe I

should stile my hair like that. It's like... Eternal. Real. It's nuts. Since a different world and 19. 1989, 90, and 91 just like has a hold over it. It's so, it's inspiring. And I'm proud of it. Should I get those glasses?

But the glasses are too big for my prescription. You know, that's kind of, so that's where I am when I'm watching a Spider-Man. So I, and also, and crucially, most crucially, you and I did not see this sitting next to each other. And so. So you were confused. Well. Because I'm usually the explainer. Yes.

There were a few moments where you were not there to lean over and put some context in. And I think in some of the X-Men stuff, that would have been useful. Well, we'll talk about that. Well, we'll see. Because there's some interesting choices that are made in this movie. Does that mean that it's bad? I don't think I think that it's bad. I think it's just my least favorite of the four because of every, all of the terrain that it has to cover.

And also what I'm most interested in in Superman. I mean, Spider-Man. Sorry, I do know the difference. Peter Parker. Yeah. And what'd you think? Obviously, I thought it was phenomenal. Okay, but it's interesting.

I think... How deep into your cheek is your tongue, though, when you say that? No, so when I say phenomenal, I mean, I thought the movie was really, really good. Like, really good. And it's interesting hearing, like, Amanda's take because, like, the Spider-Man, the criticism of the Spider-Man that we've gotten, the Tom Holland Spider-Spiderman, is that it's actually not actually Spider-Man. Is that the Spider-Man that most people fall in love with

or have fallen in love with is a Spider-Man that is working for the Daily Bugle, is constantly broke, is alone. And one of the main things that he is grappling with is how to be Spider-Man and also how to be a normal guy, right? How to work and make money. He doesn't have in a lot of the comics lore

this great benefactor of Tony Stark and someone that can shepherd him and answer questions for him. What has happened to Spider-Man is the guy who did that died, which his uncle Ben, which catapulted him to being Spider-Man, but also put him in this situation

where he has to figure out a lot of these aspects of his life and he's just a young adult, just a young guy. That version of Spider-Man hasn't existed in the MCU. Not yet. There's always been, for him, somebody who kind of was a little bro in him. Be it Tony Stark, they let Mysterio do it.

Then he gets three other men. He gets two other mentors that, you know, where other Spider-Man. But this one- It's so wonderful when that happens. I watched it again this morning. Yeah. I loved it.

So, but at this one. And Dr. Strange, too. And Dr. Strange as well. He's elected. This is a big criticism of the previous three movies is that they won't just let Spider-Man have his own movie. Right. I would argue that this movie doesn't do that either.

No. Well, I think that it does. I think that, like, there's a certain MCU aspect of it that kind of gets put in. But this is the first movie to me that is directly through his purview as a solo character, having to use all of his resources on his own to figure things out. And so at the end of the last film, that was the exciting thing about this film, was that we were finally going to get it. It seemed like those first movies were an actual three-film arc to get us to the actual Spider-Den

man that we know and I thought that this movie kind of landed that plane. I think I'm right in between both of you. I think and if I had to guess this will be the rare case where my opinion is what the opinion that most people have, which is that like, I don't, that's not, that's not common these days. The every man, Sean Fennessee. Well, I liked this movie. I didn't love it and it does a lot of things that I really admired.

I didn't say that I disliked it. Yeah, but I would imagine I liked it more than you. I do think it is, there are some things about it that are clearly much more sophisticated in terms of filmmaking than in the three previous John Watts movies. I think the John Watts movies, and also because of some of the Tony Stark stuff that you talked about with, you know, the nanotech spitey suit. It's just like they kind of just seem like a CGI explosion a lot of the time. This movie is much more grounded. It looks not just because of the story arc, but the suit and the way that the action is shot. It feels much more like the Spider-Man, I imagine.

I was reading comic books, and so I really liked that about it. I agree with you about Holland. I think he is the best Spider-Man. I think him making this evolution over time. And with that series that you talked about, the first three films, what those films do is they essentially like elongate

the first Sam Ramey movie. The first Sam Ramey movie is the same thing. It's a high school movie, right, about a kid who gets these spider powers. We basically get the high school kid for three movies in this set, and now Tom Holland is 30 years old. And I'm really torn about whether

or not this movie being a dour existential examination of a spider boy becoming a spider man is like actually works all the way through. I like that they pursued it and I do think it's very true to the character. It's just that the movie is a little sullen for a Spider-Man movie for my taste. The other thing that simultaneously works great and works terribly is there's just way too much going on in this movie. It is way overloaded. It has a lot of responsibilities.

Part of that is the responsibilities of amending what happened at the end of Far From Home, which is like, okay, so we know that Peter and Zendaya and Ned, they have to get back together somehow. We have to remind Zendaya and Ned that Peter is Spider-Man and that if we don't do this,

then this movie hasn't achieved an essential part of the Spider-Man lore. But then also, there's a lot of new characters. There's a lot of old characters who are reintroduced. There's an entire organization that is like a rivalrous organization that has to be introduced to this. Which organization is that?

Damage control, which is like, appeared, but maybe not with so much necessity. Been around MC for a long time. But I didn't remember that until I went back and re-watched. Has never had the centrality that it has in this story. I did have a moment watching this being like, really you've named this Federal Bureau to image control? Well, it's comments can't. Well, I know that now, Van, but I didn't, you know, I've seen every damn movie.

Right. But I don't have your, I'm not sitting there with your knowledge. I'm sitting there as a dumb, watching these movies. as a movie. And I was like, huh. I understand it, but like, the name of the organization is Shield, because it's Shield in the comic books. And so Damage Control is in the very first Spider-Man movie.

Vulture gets his stuff. He's getting it from Damage Control. Damage Control has been around for a long time. It's been around for a long time, but it's never been put in the center of a movie thing. And it really does occupy. Yeah. I mean, I remembered that Michael Keaton was the bird guy and also the dad.

Like, great moment. His name is the Vulture. I know that. But in my head, what I remembered was Michael Keaton, evil bird dad of the prom date. And I did not remember the damage control. And damage control obviously appears in Wonder Man, which just came out. So then there's like some connective tissue between the movies and the TV shows.

But that's also something that we've criticized. Damage control has been in other Spider-Man movies. It was in like No Way Home. The second one, yeah. The third one. The third one. Remember damage control is like damage control has been in other Spider-Man. So it was waiting to have a larger role in the Spider-Man.

Do I think that damage control in this situation is the perfect, like sort of antagonists for Spider-Man in this way? There probably been things that would be more thrilling to me, but it was just been them introducing something else that was brand new. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, the movie wrong foots you because it makes you think the damage control very, very transparently doesn't. No, it does not. It's clear it's an insidious organization from the very beginning. Once again, and spoiler alert, I'm, I don't. remember or know anything going into this except that I want Tom Holland and his buds to get to be together.

And Tremel Tillman walks on screen and I was like, oh, so he's, yeah, he's the evil guy. It is, it is instant and obvious, even to people who are not paying attention like me. I think even to the extent that the movie knows that it's doing that. And maybe that's a little bit of a struggle for me with the movie is that the only real genuine crisis and conflict in the movie to me is Peter's person. crisis. The actual battles, the fight sequences, whoever the enemy is going to be, doesn't occupy the same space that like maybe a Dr. Octopus does, where it's sort of like, well, this is one of the critical foes in this person's struggle as a superhero. And he represents something as kind of a counterpoint, you know, that like he was a mentor and he's been driven mad and

he's also a man of science. Like, there's a lot of deep ideas in the villains in the Spider-Man universe. This one, I felt kind of has a big gaping, hole where that feeling usually goes. So I struggle with that a little bit. And then there's the whole Gene Gray component, which I could not be more mixed on. Here's my positives on the introduction of Gene Gray into this movie.

One, Sadie Singh, I think, is excellent casting. I was not a big stranger things person. I think I quit after the third season. I don't have a ton of exposure to her. I thought she was terrific in this movie. I think the X-Men are very well set up with her in this part. to go back to some of the canonical stuff that Van is talking about. As far as I know, Spider-Man and Gene Gray have no relationship.

It's just kind of weird to go into a movie like this and see them interacting in the way that they necessarily do. That doesn't mean that it's bad. It's because they have trauma, you know? So they understand each other. And they're lonely. And they've lost someone that they love, which, you know, is also how the other Spidey's bond in No Way Home, which I rewatch this morning. That stuff is getting a little pat at this point, obviously.

Homemark. But I did feel at a certain point that the movie, and I'm curious if you guys feel this way, sort of becomes Gene Gray's movie for about 40 minutes. It does. And this is something that many MCU movies are criticized for, but it does overwhelm the Spider-Man quality of the movie, and it's a two-hour-and-25-minute movie,

and I'm not necessarily advocating for excising Gene Gray entirely, but there's not a ton of reason for her to be in this movie other than just to set up what is to come, narratively speaking. Yeah. So again, I rewatched the other, the Holland Trilogy before this in rapid succession, preparing for this podcast. And I had forgotten how much Tony Stark there is in it and how much of it is just interstitial between, you know, the snap and whatever is going on in the Marvel.

And those three movies are used in the same way to continue stories that are going on outside as much as they are, Spitey Stories. So I don't think it's different. It's just the tenor of Tony Stark being like, I got you, bud, here's your suit. You know, Gwyneth Poucher, where you marry me. versus Sadie Sink being like, I can control everyone's mind but not my sister, you know?

It's a different vibe. Yeah. I think even in the, like, and this was a, Jomi had this criticism. A lot of Midnight Boys had this criticism that the movie has a villain problem. And I think my thing was

this villain, Gene Gray, being the villain in this movie, is kind of even, you know, to my, against my, better, my preferences, is continuing the tradition of Spider-Man movies in live action,

which if you look at Green Goblin, if you look at Dr. Octopus, which I rewatch that movie, and Ramey's skill as a horror director is underrated, not in the grand scheme of things. Obviously, he's one of the masters of that craft, but in how he crafts that movie, there are a lot of just straight-up horror sequences.

He's perfect for Spider-Man because Spider-Man is afraid of the villains in his world. It's different than capitalism. And you have to be afraid of them. So, like, he makes them scary, right? But Octavius in that movie is a tortured genius that is a good guy that is doing a bad thing. In all of these movies. Electro and Amazing Spider-Man, too. The only one that's kind of not that.

Flint, Marco, Sandman, is like a tragic figure. Right. The only one that's kind of not that is Mysterio to a degree, right? They even bring all of these characters back in no way home. and still play to those same hits. Yeah. So to that end, Jean Grey being someone

that starts off as villainous and is doing a villainous thing because of this profound trauma that she has is in line with other things that we've seen in Spider-Man movies. And Spider-Man has been the superhero rehabilitator as much as he's been the person that needs to defeat the villain.

I thought it was a really interesting move to have her occupy that space in this movie. I thought it was really interesting. To your point, though, there gets to be a point in the movie where we're in Gene's story now. And there was always going to be interesting

how people related to that after three movies and coming to see Spider-Man. I thought it was in the same tradition as Civil War being a Black Panther origin story. Like, to a lesser degree, Iron Man 2 being a Black Widow origin story, she occupies a much larger part of this movie than those characters do.

Black Panther is in a lot of Civil War and has an entire arc in Civil War. But yeah, so, like, I didn't have as much of a problem with it. I never felt watching Civil War, though, like, well, now we're in a Black Panther movie. Right. But I felt like this is like a tributary in the story and we're going to go back to Tony and Cap momentarily. But I'll say that, like, there's a reason why. Gene Gray is just a much, much, much, much, much more fundamental.

Not to me, everybody, but a much more fundamental. No, to me too. She's a lynchpin in Marvel storytelling. She's one of the most important Marvel characters. I don't know why I'm pandering. Like, Jean Grey, in this regard, is a much, much larger character. Hang in there. You're going to need to know this.

I do know this. Than Chalas. I thought you were about to say that she's like the most powerful superhero of all the superheroes, what you guys always say about every time we, You know, every superhero that gets introduced is undefeatable. The other challenge with this, of course, is that, like, we've already seen the Dark Phoenix story told twice before. Okay. So Gene Gray is Dark Phoenix?

She is, yeah. Okay. The Phoenix is an entity that is bonded to Jingre. And then Jennifer Lawrence played a blue person who was an ex-man, but not Dark Phoenix. Yeah. Okay. That's what I always get confused on. I think you're making a very good point.

And I think I haven't even mentioned a bunch of other characters who are in this movie and play somewhat critical roles in this movie. Bernthal's Punisher plays a very big part in the film. It's a team up. The Incredible Hulk is in the film. Ruffalo's Hulk. We see Scorpion in full for the first time. We see Tombstone in this movie. We see a bunch of comic book characters, right?

And the comic bookishness of the movie, I love. loved. There's an incredible sequence with the Punisher and the Hulk and Spider-Man in the middle of the movie where I was like, this is what I have won in my whole life. When we joke around about being dorks in 12 years old, like that sequence in the movie, which I don't think really is a very effective movie storytelling, but the sequence itself, I was like, this just rocks. Like, I could watch this for an hour and enjoy myself. But why the Incredible Hulk is in this movie in the first place is a little debatable? Because he's teaching. Spider-Man about genet

biohacking. Yeah, in order to not be consumed by his spider hormones. Yes, and I have a strong reading of that entire sequence and what all that means to this movie. Right. So, like, there's a part of my brain that loved seeing that

big splash page sequence where those three guys are fighting. Yeah. There's a part of me that loved seeing Jean Gray freeze all of New York City with her power and start thinking about the future of a cool X-Men movie. And then there's another part of me that was like I felt like I was looking at my watch every 30 minutes

and being like, how much is left in this? Because it feels glacially paced at times. And then the movie goes really fast and then it slows down. And MJ and Peter are talking. Yeah. And they're trying to figure out their relationship. And then it speeds up again. So invested then it jumps out of that.

Yeah. And so I just felt like it was uneven. You know, it's just, and not bad and pretty enjoyable. Right. And I think is mostly going to give people what they're looking for here. But there was also just something a little bit off.

Well, so this is what I'll... Okay, so the movie is not the perfect version of itself. My rule for comic book movies, really for any movie. My rule for any movie is as long as it works. I wouldn't have cared if Angel would have flown into the movie. Wouldn't have cared of the one of all would have been in the movie. Warren Worthington? Warren Worthington, I wouldn't have cared.

As long as it works, as long as you deploy the characters... I'm going to keep doing that. As long as you deploy the characters in a way that serves the story and makes for something cool as long as it works. If it didn't work for people, then it didn't work. And so it was fat.

But, you know, I think the movie is a little bit, I think the parts of the movie that don't work are the parts that are a little reactionary. Because this movie comes out and is being made. Like, Marvel has a big, big sort of blunder. Maybe it was the Marvels.

I can't remember which one it was. And then, like, right after that happens, they said, hey, first day of shooting, brand new day. So a part of this movie, the ethos was to restore the feeling. Right, we have a problem to self. We have a problem to solve. So this is what we're going to do. We have this gigantic character.

We have other characters that you like. You're going to come to see this, and we're going to give you both the heart and the superhero bonanza that you want that's going to remind you of some of the times that you have fun at the theater before. Right. And they have released the movie exactly one week after Comic-Con when they took over Saturday night and you were there in person to be like, no, look over here. Look at all of the cool new things that we're doing in Marvel and here's our new Black

Panther and here's Ryan Gosling, et cetera. So it is of a piece of just trying to restart. So like I think that the box office plus the fact that this movie is good enough for a lot of people, fun enough, really good for some people, then some people are going to be less thrilled about it, but that it is good. and makes a lot of money is going to be enough for people to be like, okay, they can still do this. But they were definitely, at some points,

just trying to give you this one frame where the Punisher is shooting the Hulk, Spider-Man is on top, and that frame was for you to be like, wow. By he said in Hall H, I never thought I'd see those three characters on screen together. Right. And that frame is meant to, like, elicit that response from you. Yeah, there's a much bigger thing going on here, which in theory will transpire over the next two Avengers movies, where it's like, all right, all of us dorks

have been waiting a really long time for everybody to be in the same movie. And we couldn't get the X-Men in the movie. We hadn't introduced all the other characters. Like, they've introduced probably 80% of the, maybe 90% of the major Marvel characters now in movies. Like, we've gotten pretty far, something like Ghost Rider or Blade,

like we haven't quite gotten everybody, but most of them are going to come around. So they're going to fulfill all those dreams, desires, and wishes. But that doesn't change, like, what's in the actual movies, you know? Totally. And to me, I've been at war with this for years where I'm like, I'm getting these endorphin hits watching the films.

And then I'm thinking about what happened in the film like an hour later. And I'm like, so what happened again? Which I find to be a little bit of a sign of the struggles that they have with the general storytelling as they try to manage delivering some of those moments to the audience. One of the things that the movie does, and I'm curious to hear what you guys think about it is, you know, they introduced this idea of the Iraq. Acne DNA essentially taking on a greater, a stronger presence in his body than what has come before. And so this becomes kind of like a post-puberty pubescent story.

And we see that the webs start forming naturally inside of his body, which is always the most wonderful sperm-laden metaphor. I remember it. Can't control himself. Just spurting everywhere. And then they do, they make a point of calling them spider hormones. The spider hormones are surging. Not like the spider DNA or the spider whatever is taking over. So, yeah, it's not a complicated metaphor.

What did you think of how it was portrayed in the movie? It made a lot of sense. You know, in general, I feel like there's a lot of attention paid to puberty and then no attention to paid to what happens after. And our bodies are always changing, as you know, because you just fell off the cliff. Are you off the cliff yet? I'm in the motherfucking canyon. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you have any corrective lenses? No, but like my, I got the reading glasses situation. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm rapidly headed there. So I thought it made a lot of sense and it's, you know, like a pretty neat literalization,

not just of like it's hard to grow up, but also the battle between being Peter and being Spider-Man and who are you going to be? And can all of these weird crazy scientists help you? So it worked. I like your interpretation. You want to trot it out for the people? Yeah, it feels like the whole movie is about Peter Parker trying to find the right SSRIs. You know, like the whole inhibitor that we talked about that he, you know, he observes that Bruce Banner is using and that the idea of manipulating science and technology to get your hormones in the right perfect balance. Like, I'm not sure how literally the screenwriters were thinking of this idea. But it reminded me a lot of talking to people who have had these experiences where they're just like, I was off. And now I'm fine.

and because I found what the right mix is for me and it's a very common experience for a lot of people and I thought it was pretty clever and like deftly communicated that as Peter was getting older and getting frankly more depressed dealing more with loss and the true villain in this movie is loneliness so you know and and

and I think and being stuck on shout out Prozac which I am you know I lost my girl I lost my best friend I lost my aunt like I lost all these things how do I deal with it can I make a crude give like the audience, a crude understanding of, like, just my general feeling and my connection to these

movies. Do you guys ever have a friend that you have a lot of history with? So the friend makes inside jokes. You find the jokes funny, like legitimately hysterical because of your history with that person. And then sometimes there's a third person in the room and they go, that's not that funny. Or they go, it's kind of funny. They go, yeah, it's humorous, but then, why do you find that person so funny? Is this to you on every episode of this show?

Is that what you're saying? No, but what I'm saying is that like, for me... It's humorous. It's just you might as well just walk into the ocean. You know, that's just like, yeah, that is... Right. So for me, when I look at some of the stuff that's happening on the screen, like for Spider-Man, even in Spider-Man, too, they do this exact same thing in the reverse,

which is Spider-Man is going through something emotional, so he actually loses his powers. If you remember, he can't see anymore. The webs aren't coming out because so much of who Peter Parker is is connected to his emotional state. Remember, he's trying to be a human being that has all of these relationships and has all of these people that he cares about and also trying to save New York City and be something more than what he is. And then also another thing about Spider-Man that is fundamental that this movie hasn't really struggled with as much is he's also always coming to terms with his power. Spider-Man is a much more powerful character than sometimes he is able to be. He pulls his punches when he is fighting people.

He, like, doesn't use or can't control some of the aspects of his arachnid DNA that really make him almost a god-tier character. He's super strong and super capable. And this is the film. It's been done in other movies that kind of wrestles with that. Like Spider-Man in his final mutation, how does he just not control what's going on emotionally in his life, but the damage he can do if he's unchecked? I thought some of this stuff was really well done in the movie, actually.

And they contrast it, and I think it really explains neatly why the Punisher is there. I mean, the Punisher, the Frank Castle character, and Spider-Man do have a long tradition together in the comic books. They're often pitted against each other. They have this uneasy alliance. John Bernthal has been playing the Punisher for a very long time. Never like this, his version of the Punisher, is very or-rated. and very violent. This one is PG-13 and pulling his punches on F-bombs and not quite going as far as he usually does.

And making chili. Yes, having a lot of comic relief. But this movie gets Spider-Man right all the way up against the wall of how violent can Spider-Man be. How, like, will he kill? Like without the black suit, without something like taking him up. Well, it is, I guess. It's kind of a version of the mutation, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or he's like becoming a man spider. instead of a Spider-Man. And I mostly like this. However, I feel that this movie is really indebted to two movies. And I was thinking of this immediately. I don't know if this occurred to you guys. I saw the movie sitting next to Joanna, and we talked about it after I saw it.

The first one is the Dark Night, which is the movie is immediately communicating, like, this is a darker Spider-Man movie, all the way to the point where in that opening tank chase sequence, like the tank literally flips upside down into a building, a brick wall. And it is kind of almost feels like it's recreating the truck flip from the dark night But just the sense of like there's a little bit more gravity and seriousness in this Spider-Man movie

The second one that I feel as unmistakable is the Matrix That there is something about being the chosen one Harnessing your power finding balance Particularly in that final conclusive battle sequence when he's like I'm both when he communicates He's both Spider-Man and Peter Parker The fight sequences with the hand I haven't even mentioned the hand another canonical spider spider figures and even small stuff

like the Gene Gray body jumping telepathic trick that she does which resembles the agents moving into people's bodies or fallen or fallen good good shout

Denzo Washington film yeah a good movie but like there's even a moment literally in the movie where Gene body jumps into a helicopter pilot and like takes off of it's like the same scene from the Matrix

and I don't know if Descendantian Kretton was watching The Matrix or something, but there are a lot of sequences where I was thinking of these movies. Honestly, not a bad thing. The Matrix is 27 years old. If you're going to borrow from something, it's kind of a cool idea. But it is interesting that in order to kind of like evolve the character,

it needs to lift some of the sentiments from other movies because I think we as viewers are kind of trapped between the two things that you're describing. One, the Holland films that we know. This is the fourth time we've seen him. They're a little bit brighter, a little bit chirpier, a little bit more like Mr. Stark, Mr. Stark. And then the Spider-Man that we know, which is like this 20-something guy who's trying to figure out his love life, who's trying to balance his career and also has this huge burden of being Spider-Man, I feel like it was mostly pretty successful. I don't know.

I'm kind of torn. It's weird to be like I'm the old guy now who sees The Matrix instantaneously when I'm watching a movie because when you're a kid, you don't know the movie references and you have to kind of catch up to them. And now I'm like, do the 25-year-olds know that he's Neo? You know, that that's what they want you to feel. You think they'll enjoy it more or less if they know? I don't think it really matters. I mean, it's just interesting for me as a movie watcher to get to that phase of my life. You and I were talking about before we started recording how, and it's a little bit because

after we saw this new movie, then we went back and did research. But I had a hard time remembering this movie before we recorded. And in fact, we rewatched the trailer just to refresh our, of, okay, oh, so there's this happen and there's that truck. and there's the hand and there's like the Punisher splash thing. So I will say just in terms of this set pieces and bringing all of those and the movie action that you're seeing on screen, if you're not there for the comic book nerdery of it all, and if you're not there being like, oh my God, it's the dark light or the Matrix,

I don't know that they're the most memorable. And I do feel like some of the action stuff just blur until you get to the hand. blurred together a bit in my head. So to answer your question of will they enjoy it if they don't see those things, I mean, maybe they'll enjoy it more because they're not looking for references or maybe it won't feel reheated or maybe the action stuff falls a little flat until you get in person. How did you feel then both of you guys about how Zendaya and Ned are used in the movie and how that story is communicated of them eventually reuniting? I thought that it was like really well done. I thought that there are times in the movie. Those are the characters in this film that challenge Spider-Man the most.

Everything else is just an obstacle. Yeah. Like everything else is just an obstacle. Spider-Man's going to win. He's going to get over this. They are going to get through the Punisher. He's going to get through the Hulk. He's going to get through the hand.

He's going to figure it out. This is the one part of the movie to where you actually don't know if he's going to be okay. And that's another central thing about the character, which is not really being sure if Peter Parker is going to figure this out. He kind of does, but the movie doesn't give it to you. The movie, they are reunited, but not in the same way that they were.

The end of the movie gives you hope that it could happen. So all the personal investment that you've made into the character of Peter Parker and really the kind of Scooby-Doo, like Dr. Strange says, element of his friend group helping him, Not everybody was a gigantic fan of that Because once again, it's kind of like Spider-Man by committee

But that was the thing that worked the most Because I'll be the guy in the chair Yeah, that was the thing that worked The most because that was the thing That undergirded the first three movies More than anything else, him and his friends At the very end, when he does the handshake with Ned I did tear up

So, you know, clearly that worked for me Even though getting them back together is getting Ned back into the mix is a little labored. I thought the way that they used the MJ character and they used the Jean Grey of it all and her specific powers to bring MJ back into his life was quite effective and upsetting.

The false start setup is an excellent scene. Yeah, that's like one of the best scenes in the movie. I think a lot of the scenes, like, even when Spider-Man comes back from this triumph and she's sitting there reading the letter, you're like, oh, shit. Yeah. I think most, you know, they're married. So I think, I think.

Yeah, they have great chemistry. They have great, hopefully, you know, for them. But, like, I think. Did you watch the GQ Spider-Man trivia video that the cast did? No, I didn't see it. It was really, really, it was very entertaining. But where they were asked questions about Spider-Man lore, and it was the whole cast.

And, you know, unsurprisingly, Tom Holland got most of the questions rights. And Day, I got a couple right. John Bernthal and Sadie Sink barely spoke during the entire quiz. I relate. They seem to not know anything. They were in the Dobbins chair. But watching Zendaya, how much she loves her husband was really interesting.

Because she was just like leaning into him constantly, laughing, like turning, making side jokes to him. And I agree, you can kind of feel it in the movie. Like, they just, they vibe. They have a thing. And when they're together in the movie, the movie is really working. And you really want them,

you really want her to wake up and remember. Which is a credit to the storytelling. But also a credit to the storytelling that she, there's not a I mean it gives you the faint and so it kind of gives you that moment and takes it away from you but then MJ herself is just like I don't I don't know that person yeah like it's really it's like very smart and yeah yeah yeah and she's like I'm sorry but but that's not going to happen good luck he's gonna have to do it like he does everything else yeah spider man does the hard way I think, you know, me connecting to the movie is obviously, like I said,

part of my experience with the characters and part of that. I also, when I rewatch Spider-Man 2 and rewatch the original Spider-Man, I think the movies are close. I think this is by far the best one of the Marvel MCU Spider-Men's that they've made because it's really, to me, the only faithful adaptation of the character itself. Everything else was to me to get me. Right, Emily Wilson over here. I honestly don't

We've had this conversation on the Midnight Boys We had a very ill-fated midnight court Against Doesn't like drumming either So like I honestly have enjoyed the Tom Holland Spider-Man But have never really completely bought in Because of how much they leaned him on other characters This whereas there were some team-ups

Spider-Man was on point, running point at every time Yeah it's interesting to think And I guess when we talk about ranking in movies, we can discuss that some. But I feel like part of the reason why they did it this way is very logical because there were two other very recent versions of Spider-Man that were more interested in the adult Peter that was dealing with some of these issues. So they had to differentiate somehow, right? I don't even think it was that. I think that those other Spider-Man don't have to worry about being woven into a larger universal narrative. That's true.

So what makes more sense to do right here is because you already have tone. Tony Stark, who is the big swinging of the MCU. Look at that self-edit. That's a lady in the room. The big swinging of the MCU to bring Spider-Man in a character who is infinitely, infinitely more culturally relevant than Iron Man was at that point in every way. It makes sense to have Iron Man shepherd him and steward him. so that Spider-Man doesn't get in the way of the perfect art that you've created for Iron Man.

He comes in under Tony Stark so that when you kill Tony Stark in endgame, everybody is not thinking, oh, we still have Spider-Man. It doesn't matter. You know what I mean? And so it's the same problem that kind of Batman and Superman ran into because it was like you bring Batman into the Superman movie. Is this a Batman movie? This is a Superman movie. How do you split it? You think you want both people in that movie, but you really got to do it right.

So this Spider-Man had to fit in to something that other Spider-Man having. It was their universe. This universe up to this point hasn't been his. Yeah. But it struck me also how much the Marvel tone has changed from the quippiness of Avengers 1 and 2 and even Spider-Man Homecoming. And Holland is kind of like the apotheosis of that. And he was such a fit.

And cast into a universe that had already been established by Iron Man and R.E.J. And all of these people and the jokes or whatever. But that's what he's doing. In the first three, he's doing very quippy stuff and he's really good at it. And that's very, to me, that's very true to Spider-Man, the wise-cracking web slinger. That's a part, that's a key component in the comics as well. They've never really got it right in the movies, though. Only, you know, really got that right?

Garfield. Garfield was the Spider-Man that was like, you pull out the knife and he goes, oh, my God. Oh my God, my weakness. Small knives. And then he turns around. He was the guy that got that right more than anyone. Toby McGuire's Spider-Man is so emotional. And so it works.

But as far as that version of the character... So Kirsten Dens just dragging him across three movies. I mean, that's fine. That's time. She always does it. Kiki forever. Yeah. Not sure I agree with that take, but we can litigate that momentarily.

I Let's talk a little bit more about Gene Gray Okay, so she can Control minds That's what it is? That's what she's doing Telepath telekinating Okay, so let's put that in

She can control people's mind She can influence behaviors She can It's powerful enough Stop time, freeze time She has How is she? Because time is a construct And it's just what's going on in our mind

She can let you Have you ever seen the original X-Men? Which one? The ones with Patrick Stewart? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You ever see when like at the beginning of the second one when everybody stops and you know that Xavier is about to come into the room because Xavier is the world's... Well, I don't know until he comes into the room, but yes.

Well, as soon as that happened in theory, we started clapping because we knew Xavier's about the role in. But like Xavier is the world's most powerful telepath so he literally could be in like Riggly Field watching MVP candidate Pete Crowe Armstrong please do not do not talk about that in front of me

please for the love of fucking God it's the five year anniversary of that trade literally today that's the Cove that when we were at Wrigley last summer you were just like sulking being like he used to be a mat he's the best one of baseball so he literally could be there

as PCA steals three bases hits two homer I will I will fucking kill myself You just say who in the booth, which right on, Lucas. Right. And so he could, he could stay. It's tough. That's a tough one.

That's a tough one. I mean, look, it's like, look, the Mets are so bad. That's a tough. That's a tough one. What is your baseball team? The Dodgers. Well, that's not really real. I know.

People are like that. But I have been. I mean, listen, I will, I, you still haven't taken me to Dodger Stadium. We have to go. I know. Well, I'm leaving town. So why don't you work on a September ticket? Well, they'll be here all the way through the way.

I know. So. But yeah, so like he could be in Wrigley Field and just stop everybody at the same time in their tracks because that's how strong of a telepath that he is. Okay. So she is also a telepath. She's obviously in the movie she doesn't realize how powerful she is. The movie is about her learning the extent of her powers. The movie does something kind of interesting to me, which is that it aligns Spider-Man and Gene, obviously, as outsiders.

The X-Men story is about outsider people coming together to form a team and to better. understand themselves in the world, yada, yada, yada. But Gene is a mutant and Spider-Man is a guy who got bit by a spider. Like, they are different. And part- Go on. Well, part of what's interesting about Spider-Man is... What is a mutant? A mutant is you're born that way.

Okay. She was born with telepathic powers. They may reveal themselves as you get older. Okay. But they're special earlier on historically. Spider-Man is raised with, like, a human morality. Ask it. A human experience.

Well, so are you born that way? Is it a genetic trait? So earlier on in the history of Marvel, this group of beings called the Celestials. Okay. Oh, so this is just straight Greek mythology. Oh, literally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

All the characters, yeah. I mean, you know, I do know that. Or Norse mythology. Sure. Norse mythology, so they... But this is genetic. They play with human DNA. And, like, even the characters that have powers,

this is really way to... This is, like, ridiculous. We don't even talk about this on Midnight Boys. Even the characters who have powers, they have a gene that, lets them unlock those powers. So Spider-Man was born different because there are people in Marvel that the radioactive spider biting them would have killed them. There are people in Marvel that being exposed to the gamma, it would have killed them. But they have a different set of genes

that's designed by the Celestials. The mutants have, are differently designed by the Celestials, meaning that their powers will manifest during puberty. Okay. And it's super stressed out and stuff. Yes. It comes out during puberty. Okay. Are the celestial's different? Yeah. It's all a metaphor.

I got it. Are changing bodies. So are the sel. What was it like? What was puberty like for you? Well, I was about to ask. I was about to ask, have comic books gotten to paramedopause yet? Like, what's up with Diana?

Like, you know, 42. She's a god. Oh, that's right. I know because she is literally. She probably doesn't have to deal with it. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. But okay, who's a, who's a demigod?

You know what? Oh, that's a woman. I mean the gene is. They kind of deal with this. Gene will definitely go through it. Those hot flashes will be insane. No, no, no. Before the hot flashes.

There's just, listen. You know who kind of went through this? They explored it a little bit in Watchman a little bit. As you watch, like her, like her. Carly Goetino and Malinacharman's characters. She talks about it a little bit. Aging superhero. Okay.

Heroin. And she talks about a little bit, some of the stuff they go into it that much. They do. Overall, aging. Uh-huh. Because these characters are supposed to be perpetually young, it's something that comics don't do very well. Unless they want to kill a character.

This is something that distinguishes this movie is like, Holland is actually older. He's older, yeah. This is closer to pari menopause than, you know, puberty in terms of. It was just like a different change. It was a little bit sad to return for me for Spider-Man. That was sort of what I was thinking for him where it was like, oh, I'm like, Emerald Year. I was like, oh.

Hey, Chris Nolan's Emerald Year. Is that true? Yeah, he's also a Leo. It was his birthday this week. Yeah. Damn. Did you know what's our animal the year?

A lot of Leo. Jupiter's in our house of something. I don't know what the hell is going on. It's like it's just, it's our time. So just get ready, get on board.

Yeah. The other question I want to ask is are the celestial's different than the people that they made that movie about with Jim, that Chloe Jow directed? This is a, no, they're in the movie.

Yeah, that's the part. You're fucking with me. The thing that's emerging from the earth was there's a celestial. Yeah, no. I remember because I remember going like, yeah, yeah. She knows.

Fake, you're nerd. I know Greek mythology. And so every time I go and I'm like, oh, you're doing this one, you know, once every three years, they decide to like actually acknowledge the text. I've seen every MCU movie in the last eight years in theaters. But so that movie was not called the Celestials. What was that called? The internals are the creations of the Celestians.

So the eternals are just like the literal Greek gods. They're like Zeus, Hera, like all of those people. Sort of. The terminals would be closer to the Greek gods and the Celetians would be the Titans. Yeah, exactly. Right. Right, right. Okay.

I mean, as soon as you said Celestials, I thought Titans. Great. Okay. Spider-Man is different, though, because he's grounded in a changing experience. He's not like Superman where you're like born to do it. You know, if he doesn't get bitten. No, he's a demigod. Spider-Man is one of the characters.

And it's interesting when you listen to Stanley and Jack Kirby to talk about this, is that part of the reason why we have mutants is because they got sick of inventing ways for characters to get their power. It was you went on a space mission. you're exposed to something and now you can stretch. It was you were bit by a radioactive spire. It was you got gamma rays or whatever. You're a Norse god. They just went, you know what?

You're 13. You get the powers. And then they can just talk about like whatever the powers are. And that's what the mutants became. But also, it also became really interesting social commentary, which the X-Men has always been, which is this tension between mutankind and humankind, human's ability to kind of like discriminate against mutants

and try to control mutants. And then mutants wrestling with their genetic superiority and whether or not, obviously the central tension between Magneto and Professor X, whether or not they want to live alongside mutine kind or rule it and run it. And even in this movie, Martin and Malcolm. Martin and X-Men universe, yeah.

And even in this right here, that is something that the character of Gene Gray is actually kind of dealing with. because she has trauma and that trauma is enough for her to really do in this movie some ghastly things. A person gets hit by a car, a taxi. That was when in the movie I started to think maybe it's not Jean Grey. Because, like, Jean Grey is a character that I can't see even through all of her trauma. A lot of times if the Dark Fieness is not controlling her or influencing her, just like killing people for her own.

I would welcome an X-Men story that features a little bit more hard-edged storytelling. I think that's what they're going for. I think that would be to see the real berserker rage of Wolverine, to see the real, like, cyclops accidentally killing something. They did in Logan. But you know what I mean? Like in the wider MCU, one of the things about the MCU, I mean, Amanda was gesturing towards this.

These have been very quippy, sort of candy-colored movies. And invariably, when you do this for long enough, you have to evolve the kind of story that you tell. Endgame had great stakes and people died. But even then, There was a lot of jokes, and this is a much more dour and sullen movie, as I said. And I don't want it to be totally joke machine James Gunn style movie, but I don't want it to be depressing either. And so I think striking the balance is really challenging.

I think it's the primary challenge of this movie is what tone are we meant to hit between zippy montages of Spider-Man fighting canonical bad guys and, you know, this guy who lost his best friend and his girl. and, you know, figuring out how to deal with his hormones. And is, you know, basically an N-SEL, but for good. Oh, damn. I mean, he is. You know what movie this also reminds me of? Taxi driver. Oh, wow.

Tough. I mean, he's just, like, alone in the weird attic. But he's not... With, like, a lot of... But he's not... An Encel is an involuntary cel a bit. He actually gets hit on by the girl in his apartment and goes, no, I don't want that.

Because I'm stressed out about MJ. Yeah. That's tough for you to call Peter Parker and Encel. He said insult, but for good. Yeah. He's withholding his... No, yeah. Yeah.

He's like... He's like Sterling Hayden in Dr. Strangelove. Yeah, he's withholding his essence. Yeah. You know, I think that there's one thing that tonally these movies, superhero movies in general, are dealing with right now. Mm-hmm. is that the MCU and other films,

remember this was a criticism of Zach's universe. A criticism of Zach's universe was that it was to Dower. Zach Snyder. Zach Snyder. You're on a first name basis. Leave my husband's name out of your mouth. I think he can write a bad. He's a hell of a writer.

I would love to see his take on Ant Man. I would love to see that paycheck. I would love to see his take on that. But that these, These movies were easier to make. So glad you're here. These movies were easier to make when they were actually taken a little bit less seriously.

What happened towards the end of the MCU's classic period is that people started to ask a lot of serious questions about superhero. Superheroes, they started to say, okay, where are the women? Where are the black women? Where to Asian Americans? Where are the things? And we were at peak, woke era. Which I hate saying that.

I'm woke as shit. And people were saying, yo, there needs to be a reflection of some of the real world stuff that we're dealing with in these movies. And Marvel tried. And God damn it, they fucking failed. Yeah. I'll just be on, they failed. They couldn't do it.

Okay. And so, and so I'll say this to say that, like, I don't think that it was a bad swing. But now when we talk about the films, people seemingly have soured on the quippiness and all of that stuff that they loved about the MCU. No doubt. They hated the Zach Snyder, I wish I knew his middle name now, the Zach Snyder universe because it was $2.00. So now I think...

Zach Barron Snyder. Zach Barron Snyder. Okay. Now I think... Just send those checks right over. The films have to kind of find themselves and kind of figure out how they're going to do what they do. I think even, to be real with you, the Fantastic Four actually

kind of struggled with this same type of push. pool thing, was the fantastic for bright enough? Was the fantastic for fun enough? It seemed like they were fighting against themselves. All those sequences in their apartment, you know, that stuff is a little dull, a little sullen, a little like

fate of the universe is really the crisis at home stuff that is really hard to balance. I think it's part of the reason... And his brain that's too big. Well, it's a great responsibility. Like being a spider man. Why hasn't Christopher Nolan made one of those movies? He didn't even at the Dark Night. I tell you. No, I meant, you know, Fantastic Pro.

I know. But that's still the best superhero movies, so it's fine. Chris for New Year Richards would be phenomenal. Yeah. The thing that I... It's called Oppenheimer. It's literally called Oppenheimer. Like, that's actually, look ahead.

Genius. But like, the thing about that character is, in a lot of ways, and I don't want to come in here and shit on the Fantastic Four, but in a lot of ways the failure of that movie, to me, is in the character of Reed Richards. Just a relentlessly fascinating character. I agree. Miscast, though, that's really the biggest problem. Miss cast, the smartest man in the universe who consistently believes, and they almost always,

they almost kind of did it with Tony Stark. Who can, what? What? I just didn't know. I was just remembering last summer, and just this shot from materialists where Pedro Pascal, spoiler alert, where Pedro Pascal just sinks down. Oh, yeah. That's the best thing that's happened in movies in 30 years and has nothing to do with this conversation. I wanted to love that movie much more than I did.

I thought it was okay. But anyway, but anyway, to you, these sort of tonal middle grounds, it's a problem. It's just hard. They're comic books. It's really, really hard to balance this stuff. And you're right. They were taking these movies more seriously because they've been so dominant for 15 years. And we expect a lot out of them.

I certainly have. And part of the reason I've been so critical last five years is I'm like, I think you guys can do better at this point, not worse. And some of these movies are getting worse. And that isn't great. This isn't worse. This is not a step back to me. It's definitely not my favorite, but it would have been very easy for me to come in and be mad, and I wasn't mad at the movie at all. And it's also hard to be, it's not hard to be that successful, but there is a real where do you go because people want the exact same, but also something new, you know?

And so at some point it's just they've been doing this for almost 20 years. And it's hard to please people the way that you did 10 years ago. And you can't take breaks, right? Yeah. With James Bond, we'd be making those movies since the 60s. But what we do is we take a couple of breaks, a couple of years, breaks, sometimes five, 10 year breaks. It's about to be a six year break. Right.

Six year breaks. And then you pull back and you go, okay, new director, new James Bond, everything is new. Everything's new. Right. With these movies, because they're essentially one gigantic comic book. Yeah. And now they're rolling and the economy of it, the economics of it are so crazy. It's difficult to actually do the type of reset that they would need to do.

I know you're getting into where I think we need to go. So before we go there, we'll get in. into what's next for the MCU, box office predictions, and our Spider-Man movie rankings right after this. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Every episode we break down what's worth your time, what to watch, what to skip, what to put on the list. But some things on the list aren't exactly fun to get to,

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So you can get back to the fun stuff, like arguing about movie rankings. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Okay, so you've set up a really interesting series of discussions because there's a bunch of things that now are going to happen that have to happen. What you're hinting at is how, essentially Tom Holland can't get off the Spider-Man train. And it seemed like in some reporting recently, including that your husband did, like he's been weighing in his mind whether to continue to be Spider-Man. Batman 4.

How much longer can a man do? be a Spider-Man like this. No one's ever made four movies as Spider-Man until now. And so I think that there's a question of... I'll phrase it this way. Coming out of the movie, I turn to Joanna and I said, over under two and a half more Tom Holland Spider-Man movies. So what do you say to that?

Does this include... Not Doomsday, just Spider-Man, colon... Two and a half? Under. Under. What do you say? Two and a half under. I think he'll do two more. Exactly. Okay.

Joe said over, which I thought was interesting. Okay. And I just need him to make the Fred Astaire movie. I think he's going to do that. I know, but like, you know, go. He seems to have the prestige bug now that he's done the Odyssey. Yeah. You guys, that that movie had better work.

Like, he's a phenomenal dancer, very likable. That is a beloved American cultural icon that hasn't really been. dipped, that movie better work because if you really want to know the reason why he's playing Spider-Man again, it has nothing to do that's more to do with Cherry and the other movie where you couldn't, where you could

hear people's emotions and all of those films than it does with this. Yeah. Like it, like his other stuff hasn't worked. Yeah. It hasn't worked. And so he, this happens. People catch cold ones. They pick the wrong scripts. He's talked about it. But one of the reasons why

he will play Spider-Man. He loves the character. I think he has different expectations of the characters in the movies after having worked with Christopher Nolan. Yeah.

I really do believe that that's real. But the Fred Astaire thing will be a referendum on whether or not Tom Holland is capable. Can exist outside of Spider-Man. Yeah.

I don't really know. He was my least favorite part of the Odyssey, you know? And I know some of it is the character, the way that it's written and what, you know, what purpose it serves

in the story, but I also just thought his performance was not very strong. The exact opposite in this movie. In this movie, I thought he was great. He's wonderful.

I think this is his actually best performance as Spider-Man, whether you even like the story or not, because he's given more to do. I'll say, just cynically, I'll go over and just say I think he'll make three more of these, because he's really good at it. And what we have seen is that other spider stories can probably live alongside these movies. The Spider-Verse movies are happening and are working. Okay. Let's all get prepared to see a real Miles Morales in Doomsday. You know, like I think that there's a chance that something like that happens.

And then all of a sudden we're getting the No Way Home version where Holland is the old guard, you know, 10 years from now. Right. Training's a new one. That's nice. You know, like all of that is in play too. So was your question to Joanna in the main Spider-Man movie is he the main Spider-Man? I didn't specify that. Okay.

Because that, you know, I could seem, he'll show up. He's definitely Chris Evans vibes where it's like, and it's, you know, you know, he's definitely, Evans vibes where it's like, even if he tries to quit in 15 years, they're pulling him right back in, you know? That's right. Well, it also, it also depends on what works, right? Like, because I can make this thing arguing for Chris Evans. I think Cap had a pretty final arc in endgame. And maybe if Chris Evans has found tremendous success outside of this,

maybe he's not picking up the shield again. Did you see ghosted? I did see ghosted. Which thing? Terrible. I saw, so, so not only that one, but you know what one that could leak a light? room one where he had to like rescue Santa Claus what was that called?

Red notice? Red no that was Red one. Red one. Red one. Like completely absurd Sunday one o'clock watching. Like you know what?

A horrible movie. Look the completely absurd. The afternoon on Sunday when you're just relaxing, man. Don't know what that's like. Critical meter goes way down.

Like you see Jumping Jack Flash on TV And you go, Jesus Christ It feels so amazing to have caught jumping Jack Flash But I'll say about him though Like same thing I think you have one more Furthering Spider-Man's adventures And then I think you make a last one

Where potentially Peter Parker could be killed And mirroring the story that happens I will lose my shit I'll be so upset Can take over at Spider-Man Maybe depending on how Miles Morales is received. Don't kill my sweet little boy, you know? Yeah. Okay, I want to talk about X-Men and Doomsday, but since we're leading into this,

I'm a little dubious of what you just suggested happening that quickly, because this movie could make $2 billion. The tracking, I think the domestic tracking is around like $300 plus million, which is fucking insane. Now, some of it is like premium large formats and tickets costs more, but the last Spider-Man movie made 1.9-22 billion. It was, you know, coming out of COVID, but before Top Gun Maverick.

Yes. And this was really the movie that was the first mega success. December 2021. Yes. Do you think this movie makes more than that movie? Yes. Yes. We're back plus inflation. I think you're right.

This would be fascinating to me because I don't think that this movie is going to be, is not going to have the same highs in the theaters that No Way Home represented. It's possible for any Spider-Man movie to have that type of highs. No Spider-Man movie could ever have it. Do you think people will go see this movie three and four times? I think so. I think there's just no way to, if you take, the multiverse is, the highs of No Way Homer as much about real-world business as they are about the story. You just, there were things that you couldn't have done before. You weren't going to be able to do them, put three people in the

movie together. Now you have all your Spider-Man. Think about right now if Christopher Reeve were still with us. And like at some point Corrence Wet is like in the Fortress of Solitude and he walks in like in his 70s even in the suit. It's just like you're going to go nuts.

Like you're going to... What about Brandon Ralph? Brandon Ralph? All of them. Even if you saw all. I mean literally like that that... Henry Cavill. Henry Cavill. That would really go crazy if they did something multiversal and they brought Henry Cavill and people would go crazy. George Reeves. Isn't Henry Cavill on some sort of Netflix IP show now?

And now he's like, he's not the Punisher. The Witcher. He's not on that anymore. What's his name is The Witcher now? Wow. Henry Cavill keeps getting written off. What's his, the Hemsworth brother is the Witcher? Liam Hemsworth.

Liam Hemsworth is the Witcher? I think that he's the Witcher now. I don't really know much about the Witcher. Wow, I've reached the end of your knowledge of this stuff. I think that's a video game. I don't really watch. I don't fuck with Harry Potter. So what I would say is the highs of that, I think, are probably,

it's just stuff that we didn't think could happen. But I will say maybe Miles can maybe get there for some people, perhaps. But to me, at some point, this version of Peter Parker will end his watch because this version of Tom Holland, I think has caught the serious I'm being taken serious actor bug. And if that Fred Astaire movie does go crazy and he's, He does get a nomination and the dancing is all it is, and he's not going to want to put the suit back on. And I think that that's more prevalent with these characters.

The only guy who I know that loves doing this that would pay 50 times is Hemsworth. Love Storr would be in Thor, play Thor until he died. Everyone else kind of tries to get out until they get pulled back in. Kind of respect, like there's something beautiful just about finding your purpose, you know, and just being like, I am content. very Australian, I guess. Yeah.

Just, I'm Thor. And here I come as Thor. That's a lot of caveats, I think, to what you're describing. You know, like, Connery went back to Bond in the 70s, you know, with the hair piece going big time. So it's a real never say never because he is really good and people have a big relationship to him. I'm really, really interested in the box office of this movie, not just because I'm interested in the box office of every movie. Do you have it in your league? I believe so.

I'm sorry, that was dismissive. It's not a little league. It's a large league. There are great many... Do you do this? You do like movie fantasy drafts and all that sort of stuff? I think it's awesome now.

That's great. It's really fun. I'm glad to have you on record. Remember the hat back in the day in like the 2000s? They had like you could buy like fake stock and movie stars and movies and stuff like that. Hollywood stock exchange.

Yeah, we should do that at TMZ. I did that of course. Yeah, it was fun. I am interested in this one particularly because I do think that there will be a contingent of people who go to see this movie who are a little disappointed by it. I don't think it has. that quite that same

emotional like wow factor that um no way home does and I think this is a better made movie like no way home has a really kind of like ugly CGI finale to it you know it's like it's not a great movie yeah but it has like a lot of it delivers a lot of feelings no way no no no home is to me infinitely more flawed than this movie is

and like I just don't think it's high as or as high I get I agree like I agree I think the last Andrew Garfield saves MJ That's amazing. Come on. What's wrong with you? That's phenomenal. There's not a moment in this movie that hits that moment to me.

Of course. But once again, like, it's like... When they hug at the end before they have to go, come on. All of that's awesome. But like there are large portions of knowing home to me that just, like when you go back, especially on the rewatch, they just aren't that good. You're literally just getting to those... They bring all the villains back.

They're so funny. That doesn't work at all. What happened to Happy? Happy Hogan. Well, what did I write in the document here? I mean, what this movie does, I think it's somewhat less successful, is it introduces Liza Colonsais as Sergeant DeWolf, and she kind of occupies the Happy Hogan role in this movie.

Yeah, sort of like, I roll Commissioner Gordon here, actually, yeah, same thing. Like, this sort of law enforcement figure grown up who's kind of keeping Peter in line. And it was a little bit like, who's this lady? I was watching the movie. I was like, they're throwing a lot of new characters at you. They're throwing a lot of new setup at you. Okay, but so let's trace it out here because Florence Pio is in this as the Black Widow. We didn't even mention her.

I actually really enjoyed her. But again, I was like one more character. Yeah, she's very funny. She's filming in one location and her office is a Russian bathhouse. Yeah, she literally is on the Zoom call in the movie. Yeah, it's really funny. She's great. And so does she remember that Peter, that Spider-Man was an adventure?

Or is she just like Well, Happy doesn't because where's Happy? Happy does remember that Spider-Man was an Avenger Well, then why isn't he in touch with... Because he doesn't know that Peter is Spider-Man. Yeah. But we don't see Spider-Man in touch with Happy at any point, do we?

I know, Happy's just not in it. He's just not in the movie. Yeah, why not? He just completely abandoned Spite. What's that about? Well, because he only knows Spider-Man as Peter, right? Well, no, he knows Spider-Man. Like, remember at the end of No-A-Holm's like,

how did you know or I know with the Spiders? man, like they're talking about it. Right. Right. But there's no Peter Parker. So Happy might be into some Spider-Man, but who knows, like, what, like, where Happy is right now.

Stark is dead. Right. It's, like, who's taking care of all of that stuff. Right. Also, Peter just learned how to bioengineer everything all by himself. He's a genius. He's a brilliant kid. That's why he got bit by the spider in the first place.

He's like a rising science student. Right. But Tony was... His classmates went to MIT and graduated. I know because he, you know, lobbied on the bridge for to that nice MIT admissions officer to reconsider them. But Tony still made the suits for him.

Yeah. Okay. So. But then not in this film. When was that transfer of knowledge? I just, you know. He made a suit in Spider-Man far from home. Remember he uses at the end of the movie,

he's coming back, he makes, he uses the engineering stuff to like make changes to all kinds of stuff. Like, I'll say this. That was always one of the reasons why I thought pairing him and Tony was cool. because they did have that. They were both kind of like inventors. They had that kind of spirit of science in their characters. This is a reason why people were against in the comic books.

Peter having organic web shooters because organic web shooters, like the web shooters are the demonstration of the genius of Peter Parker. And so like a lot of times when Peter Parker is fighting, he thinks his way through the fight, not unlike Batman and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't love that Peter wouldn't realize that there would be a static electric. from his eyes in the movie, you know, or MJ has to point that out to him.

MJ got to be a woman in STEM, which is really important. It is important. Like me every day. Which, to be honest with you, is, which to be honest with it, is something that happens in this movie, right? Because you have those types of characters surrounding him, a lot of times you have to sacrifice his genius and his character to, like, spread the ball around a little bit. It's self-evident and also lightly offended way that you both said, well, he's a genius to me,

was very special. Well, I won't say this, though, like, you know, Batman. Show me the test. Like Batman. Either Batman can do it or he can't. Like, like, you know, after the service, he's a genius. He's a genius. You know, like, Captain America, not a genius.

Yeah. If he built it, you'd be like, you can't do that. You're good at leading and telling people what to do and fighting. But he doesn't. I mean, I know that he goes to the special science school, you know, but there are many geniuses. Is it a special science school? Manhattan Science School?

No, isn't it like Midtown Science and Tech? Something like that. Okay, sure, yeah. It's genius. Okay. This movie doesn't have a stinger. Doesn't it have the location tracking thing? That doesn't count?

I mean, it's barely a stinger, right? It's a stinger that's showing that there's something happening in space. What do you think that meant? You think that I mean there's another Spider-Man that has been. being picked up by the spider tracker in space another reality and another universe? I read a lot of theories and watched a lot of theory videos on it. Obviously, it leads

in the Secret Wars and Doomsday in some kind of way. Maybe there's another Spider-Man, another reality. Maybe it's picking up Venom. Like, who knows? That would make a whole ton of sense. But it's obviously... Isn't it the symbiate, like a huge part of Secret Wars?

Yeah. Like Black Spider-Man? Yeah. Certainly, yeah. I'm wondering if they're going to try to bring Tom Hardy in and infuse all that stuff back together. They could. We went back in a look. Amanda is shopping right now. I'm Googling Tom Hardy's Secret Wars.

We went back in a look. I previously Googled the Punisher. And I really, I was happy to see John Berndhal. Can we talk about Frank Castle real quick? Yeah, I have no idea who that was. And that's one where I just kind of nodded. And the movie communicates that John Bernthal is a rough around the edges mentor-like figure to Tom Holland Spider-Man.

And that's enough. That's all I needed. But I had absolutely no idea. That's not really what he is in the comics. They're usually at odds. I've learned that from the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page. Yeah, obviously they have very different approaches to fighting crime. One guy wants to blow shit up and shoot rockets at them and the other wants to save lives. Okay.

I don't think Bernthal is a great punisher. I know that that is really going against the grain. Yeah. Now he's never coming on this podcast. And I've never asked him to, so I'm not really worried about that. I... What if I asked him? I know that everyone thinks he's, like, great and perfect.

And maybe it's just because I haven't really loved his appearances throughout these Marvel movies, but... Did you watch the show? Parts of it, yeah. And I'm like, to me, that was a little too hot, and this one's a little too cold. And we haven't gotten it just right. And to me, he's not, like, a super quippy character, but also, I don't think he's, like, like, the new metal, like, super, like, super, like... like, I can't describe how what doesn't work to me about the more serious

hard-edged version of him, but it never really clicked for me. Not that like Dolph Lundgren did or whatever. Who was it? Thomas Jane was the other one? Like, I don't know that they've quite nailed it yet, but... I literally think that he was born to play the role. I know. A lot of people say that, and I understand it. I just, I've never felt that way.

Yeah, so I think it's interesting in this one is, because I look at this, this is not the traditional portrayal of the Punisher, right? the Punisher is an ex-marine who had a psychotic break after his family was killed by the mafia and decides he will kill every bad guy that he sees. He is an expert hand-to-hand fighter. He is a sensational marksman. He is just a born killer.

And he is killing to feel the hole in his soul from the death of his parents from the mafia. So Punisher don't play around. There's a part in Captain America's Civil War, this is part in the Civil War comic, where civil wars were all of these characters fought each other. And so Captain America's side has to go out and recruit villains to help them

because they're down some people. But Punisher walks into the movie, walks into the meeting, sees all the villains, and just kills all of them. Oh, okay. Setback, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then Captain America tries to beat the shit out of them

or does beat the shit out of him, and Punisher won't fight back. So, like, he's just like, Bad guy, see the bad guy, kill the bad guy. I thought this portrayal of him was interesting because it seemed as if no one can get through Frank Castle in this universe. Daredevil wasn't able to. To emotionally connect with him.

To emotionally connect to it. And I thought it was interesting in this one to have this be a display of what Peter's superpower really is, which is that Peter, through his intention and his goodness, and his method can make, he can soften people. He can make people kind of like see themselves as human beings. So even Punisher, who is a killer, like is a criminal and a killer when he's around Peter, he can't help but be a little bit better, which is like what you've seen throughout these movies from the character.

Now, I will say to a lot of people that just watch Punisher one last kill in which he kills probably, probably around 70 or 80 people, maybe more in some of the most brutal ways and then to see him come back in this one where he won't even say the fuck word, it's probably a pretty knee-jerking situation even though at the end of last kill

he supposedly learned some lessons. It's an odd choice, I think, for that to have just come out and then for us to be whiplashed into, like I said, PG-13. No shots of Bernthal. I'm a big fan of his, but hashtag not my punisher. Whether life serves you an ace or an unexpected backhand,

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Now streaming only on Hulu on Disney Plus. More or less were the same excited for Doomsday at this point. Yeah, I mean, the stuff that we saw at Comic-Con, I think, changed everybody's mind. Like, the first trailer from Doomsday came out and people were lukewarm on it. Okay, well, let me, before you go any further and talk about that. Because obviously, we saw that Doomsday trailer in April. Why did they put that trailer out? Which one?

The one that was publicly released. Like, why did they actually, why was that the, two weeks ago? Two weeks ago. Why was that the, why was that the trailer they chose to put out? I don't know. Like, I really don't understand it. It seems, I literally don't know. It is clearly a bad trailer.

Like, I wasn't as offended by it as other people were, but every single criticism that people have of it, I completely understood. Whereas the one that they put out in Hall H, you would have to not have a pulse. like to not be interested in the movie after this. It's more grounded in the character of Doom himself, which the first one is not at all, even though Doom is a central character. And he does something at the end of the trailer

that is so fucking cool and so badass that you want to go watch him for two and a half hours on screen. So I have no clue why they did it. You want to go watch him for two and a half hours on screen. that like, you know, you two and a half hours is not like the standard runtime that we reach for when talking about one of these films. Yeah. I don't. I can't share this information, so I won't say what I'm going to say.

But I know something interesting about run times relative to the rest of this year. Okay. I'm wondering if it will change the game. I'll leave it at that. I'm going to see Doomsday. I hope it's good. I've been on that. I am also going to see it and I also hope it's good.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. What will my definition of Goodby? We'll find out. Well, you know what you said earlier about Thomas Crown Affair? Yes. Like there are some of these movies that are nearing masterpiece status, right? There are some of these movies that are perfect emotional rides and perfect storytelling.

And we've had a couple of those highs in the comic book era. Dark Night obviously is a very self-serious kind of examination of the morality of people, what you're willing to do, how far you're willing to go. So Nolan obviously is on a different level with being able to craft narrative. in the human condition. But then you also have perfect comic book movies like Guardians of the Galaxy or, which I think is a phenomenal film,

Captain America Winter Soldier, and then even to a point, the combination of Infinity War and Endgame, which offer a perfect arc for two or three different characters. For Thanos, for Captain America, for Iron Man, right? But the main thing

is having fun at the movies. And you can't have fun at the movies when you're insulted by how bad and cynical something is. I get it. I understand. And there have been some of these movies that are bad and cynical and it breaks the deal that the audience makes with the film. But if you go and you have fun at the movies with people flying around, you probably won. Totally agree. You probably came out of head.

I wish my mind could work that way. Unfortunately, I'm trapped in my own, within my own superpower of overthinking about every single movie. that's ever released. But that's my burden, you know? That's my great responsibility. I overthink these movies too, but like, I think that like... I think what you just explained is representative of 97% of people who go to movies. Right.

Which is like, I would like to have a good time. Yeah. And I think this Spider-Man movie is an interesting test of that because it is trying to be a good time, but also trying to be a serious examination of a lone man and also trying to further the story in some ways that are cynical and some that feel natural towards a progression. And that's why it's a mixed bag to me.

You know what's interesting about this is I also think that this has a lot to do with kind of what, obviously your level of fun that you have for a movie has to do with what Willhouse movies are in. Right? Like my father loved Westerns. So there are some Westerns that like are, to me,

slow, whatever, but my dad loves being in the world. Like the whole. Yeah, the whole Disclosure Day thing is like a lot of people went to the movie. I thought that the movie was bad. But then a lot of people just went like my mom went to her. She was like, I have fun. Yeah. Like I have fun inside of the movie.

And she came away having like half the shit in that movie is completely unexplained. And like to me for a movie that's trying to be cerebral, didn't make a lot of sense. But there was also just some cool shit in that motherfucker that made it like fun for my mother and my sister to go see. And they really enjoyed it. So part of this is like what you bring into the movie with you if it's just about fun. Yeah, it's funny that you bring that up. So we can use this as segue into our Spider-Man rankings. I just rewatch Spider-Man 3, the third Rainey movie,

which has one of the toughest reputations of the Spider-Man movies and obviously signal the end of the Toby McGuire-Ramey era. And I thought a lot of Disclosure Day when I was re-watching it because I was like, this movie has some script problems. It's a little baggy at times. It's a little bit like it seems like it's going down a road and then it doesn't follow through on some of the storytelling instincts. He's right.

And then on the other side of it, there's some stuff that Ramey is doing with the action and the set pieces where I'm like, well, there's like one person on earth who can do this. And I felt the same way watching Disclosure Day. I'm like, there's one guy in the world who can make a movie that looks and feels like this. And it's a similar kind of balance that you're describing

about whether or not you can have fun at the movies and what you're going to the movies for whether a movie can sweep you away or not despite having a problem with the plot or feeling like a character has been jammed in there to serve MCU long-term purposes or whatever. But isn't that just the fact that like... I'll just say that seeing Spider-Man 3 again,

I was like, this is better than I remember. And the same thing happened to me. But isn't that, isn't part of that just the fact that because of your understanding and craft and your relationship with the filmmaker, that there's only so bad that the movie can be? That's exactly what I wrote on. I was like, I can only ever feel so low on a movie because I see what this person does in a way that really moves me.

Now, let me say something about that. Is that is respected to me. That feeling is respected to me everywhere else except for this genre. Because I'll tell you what I mean. So I am, like I am called a fan boy because I simply admit to the audience, I go, look, if people, man, when I was a kid, if there was a part of, of a sitcom where somebody acted like a superhero. Like, I would go like this, right? Like, it didn't matter who it was.

It was fucking Mighty Mouse. It was whatever it is, if you had a cape and you were flying around, like I was enamored with it. And I completely admit that for me, my bar of enjoyment, not quality. This is not, this is a taste thing, right? It's not a critical thing. My bar gets lowered when people start flying around and using their powers. Of course, they are a tremendous.

disappointments. I think, though, everybody has a different version of that. I think everybody has a different version of that. People who love the horror genre, they love horror movies to where I go, yo, not only was that grotesque, it was offensively bad. You know what I mean? So I just, I think that I think across the board, that is a thing for, like, for you with like some of the- Well, no, I was going to say that I think, because you posed it in the turns of, you know, is there no prestige attached to your genre where, you know? I don't think my genre is, it lends itself to prestige. Well, yeah.

And I think that I think the kind of the YA and romance fans, which I think are actually distinct from romantic comedies at this point, but are very passionate fan base and with like very defined rules about what happens in those, and those movies, books, shows, whatever they are. and if it checks those boxes or does something well enough that speaks to something that they care about in a very specific way, I think they accept it. And they are like, you know, they're fan girls, essentially. And I think it's understood kind of similarly. The horror people have done a very smart trick where they've elevated, you know, their passion into cinnophilia.

And so as soon as something hits like a certain trope of, look, this amazing kill or this amazing. you know, technical shot. And there, you know, there's a lot of technical expertise that goes into all of this. But once a horror movie hits certain checklist. This can change, though. I mean, you're making a very smart point. A horror, though, is grounded in a historical cinematic achievement. You know, like Frankenstein being a film in the 30s that changes film forever or

Dracula. Right. And then you move on through time and the Exorcist becomes one of the greatest and most successful films of all time. Silence of the Lambs winning best picture. Like there is this this might happen for superhero movies, probably less likely for YAA. Yeah. But you never know. It's just that there's not

as much history to move against here, too. But think about the movies that you named, right? So the Exorcist is like a morality tale that has to do with the existence of God, the nature of evil. Those are weighty things. Frankenstein, once again, another

movie based on this like seminal texts that has to do with man's relation to creation. Those movies are horror movies, but they're also elevated tales of the human condition. Terrifier is not, okay? And Terrifier is a perfectly absurd and fun ride. I'm fucking hypnotized by it. But that is also a movie that over the last 10 or 15 years has become a bellwether in new horror. And it's an insane clown

Running around and killing people And the horror fans, the true horror fans Yeah Well, that movie, that franchise speaks to what Amanda is describing Which is like the sinophilia of the gnarliest kill And this sort of like The extravagance of the gore effects that are being done I'm really interested in this

You're talking about this idea of subjectivity And it's not taste, it's personal preference, right? It's like what's a specific kind of story that you like? What's a specific kind of story that you like? And what's one that's one that I like. And mine is often like, well, I have a big relationship to the person who made it. And so I'm interested in the choices that they're making. So that's my subjectivity. So I'm going to be more forgiving of Disclosure Day the same way you, but what's an example

of a movie that you were like? I'm willing to be more forgiving of a movie like this because it's in a lane that I really like. I mean, don't do it. What was I about to say? I have no clue. I thought you were about to. I don't, I don't know. I think it's honestly more just. Practical magic? No, because I don't really. I don't really care about that. Yeah, go ahead.

Challengers. Like, that's a movie that, like, if you listen to Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris talk about it, they were like, this is one of the worst movies of the year. And you were like, for real? This is right into my sweet spot. It's a much more acclaimed movie, but you know what I'm talking about where it's like that has so many things you like. And like what you're asking. It's like, yeah, for the things you like in a movie, if they show up in a movie,

then you respond to them, you know? And what I like in a movie is, you know, a lot of style and good music and handsome people like maybe or maybe not fucking, you know. all set to Luca Guadonino. One of our core interests. I think I like that too. Yeah, exactly. And so you also liked challengers. And so sometimes a romantic comedy fills that void for me.

Sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes like a drama with people talking fills that void for me and sometimes doesn't. Like, you know, my problem is not my problem. But the reason that I don't have any sort of reason I'm not just like losing my mind all the time on this podcast as much is because I don't have anyone like genre. I just have like a bunch of hallmarks and different things and movies where I'm like, oh, yay, they did this. And now I'm really excited.

Yeah. But it really is just what do you like and what do you not like? Yeah, I try as best as I can. I sometimes fail, but I try to use the word favorite instead of best. I've used the word best many times, you know, in an effort to draw attention to something. But it's really more about like what are you responding to. And I always find it interesting to talk about comic movies with you because I know there's a part of you that is like defending your younger self. for having all your dreams realized.

And then there's another part of you that is like, this actually makes me happy in a profound way. And looking for the middle is like where the truth lies. And I have my versions of that as well. I'm not,

that's not a judgment against you. No, no, no. I completely understand. I think that's very true. I also think this, though, there's one thing that, and you guys know me by now, friends and colleagues for a while,

one thing that, and this is probably a passion of, like a result of my ADHD, right? One thing that bothers me more than anything is when I feel like something is unfair, right? Like, take comic book movies out of it,

a mob movie. There's only so bad, if somebody walks into a room and goes, hey, you're going to be made today. I'm like, oh, shit. He's going to be made. He grew up in fucking Canarsie, and the big boss told him to come down and get his pen.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I mean, sure, mine is a makeover. Right? It's like, oh, like, oh, we're going shopping. And I'm just like, okay, well? A montage. Let it roll. And you are a mob movie fanboy. You've seen all the movies.

You love them. And sometimes I think that... Mine is in a Paul Schrader movie when a guy's writing in his journal. Whenever that happens, I'm like, it's fucking odd. This guy's writing in his journal late at night. Right. And so whereas some of this stuff is slop and it's so commodified,

these are corporate... I'm copying to it. These are corporately owned characters. that we're going to tell these stories every five years because we have to. Yeah. Because there's a specific value that's attached to it. We talked about this in He-Man.

We had a moment. Like, we're in He-Man. He-Man, not a perfect movie. But when he pulled the sword out, and when I have the power, that was just like it wasn't a cartoon. And, like, I'm sitting there, and I'm sitting there in front of my girl.

I'm like, I'm about to cry. Like, you know what I'm saying? I was absolutely moved. So to me. Movie is not very good. But in that moment, I was absolutely moved. I think I'll just, I'll cop to it right now. Almost every single criticism of comic book movies has been fair,

except for one thing, which is the criticisms of the fans of them. And so every single thing that has been said has been fair. It is like fair and maybe more than fair. Maybe the comic book movie industry needed to have its ass kicked and needed to fail and scale. back so that there was room for obsession and room for backrooms and room for the drama and room for people to go and expand their cinematic palette outside of whatever these studios were going to throw at people with a cape. I get that. I just think in the last,

and it hasn't happened here, I just think in the last four or five years, some of the criticisms of the fans and the people who are really dedicated to this has been a little bit unfair. Man, I went to Comic Con, and there's a company, this company right here, and they make wheelchairs that is based off the comic book characters so that kids can go around the floor on Battlecat and stuff like that. And I don't mean to be... I mean, that's the best thing in the world. That's amazing.

I don't mean to be overly earnest. But we were talking about it before. I don't know how I feel about Comic-Con. I might be above my pay grade, but it was a lot of people there that this is their whole fucking life. Sure. And I think that I'm a little bit probably overprotective of them. I think when you see criticism of the fans,

I try to not criticize fans of things. Yeah, I don't do that here. I think it's because when things are down, fans get defensive, and we live in the time of social media. So you have a lot of interaction between people where they're like, you don't like what I like. Fuck you. And that breeds some division.

There's always a small but vocal group of bad fans of any genre. Of any organized group of people, right? And so when you start hearing from those. We're really toxic. Super toxic. Your point is well taken. I was listening about it. It really bothers.

you. That's funny. It was for six months of Javi bias. Three months of hobby bias. It's a tough trade. Might be the best player in sport. Yeah, I'm sorry. I was just thinking about how I guess my version of I'll watch any is really you know in anyone but you when they have the, it was just

not a good movie. The shower scenes? Is that what you're going to say? No, that's okay. No, the climactic set-eas. Any movie with a shower scene I'll watch. I mean, you know what? Me too. Remember Ben Afflick and Gone Girl? Never forget. That's right. But when they're like in the Sydney Harbor, and I don't remember if they're doing Titanic or they're doing something similar. On a boat. Yeah, on a boat.

And I was like, okay, so like the big romantic set piece of a romantic comedy, no matter how bad it is. I'm like, if you went all the way to the Sydney Harbor and you tried to film something, like, okay, I'm in. I'll enjoy it. Yeah. This is a good reminder that taste is subjective. Uh, it's very bad. Okay. It's not good, but, but that scene, they tried, you know? And they went to Australia.

You can't take that away from them. 11 Spider-Man movies. Okay. Oh, shit. You said you re-watched a lot of them or parts of a lot of them? I watched parts of or all of every single one of them, except for across the Spider-Verse. And we did show into the Spider-Verse to my four-year-old last week. You did you?

Yeah. Did that play? Sort of. He was like a little scared a couple times. Okay. Which one? Which one? The first Spider-Biverse.

Oh, I can see that. The second one, I've done both with Alice. The second one is, there's a lot of story, and it's very confusing. I was confused by it when I saw it. Yeah. And Spider-Women is a lot to take in for a little kid. That being said, that movie is fucking amazing to me. And this is a hard list to do because I love the Spider-Verse movies so much.

To me, they are actually the thing that gave me the feeling of reading the Todd McFarlane Spider-Man comic books when I was 12. where I was like, good God, this is scratching something so specific about inexplicable, ineffable feelings that certain media can give you. And I don't know that I have that relationship with any other Spider-Man movie except for Spider-Man too, the Ramey Spider-Man movie. That is the one that I feel like is the very best of the live-action movies. I do understand that that's a very common take. that that's, but, you know, you thought that this most recent Tom Holland film was the least of the four. You thought it was the best of the four.

I'm probably somewhere in the middle. I feel like Homecoming was really cool and it was like a great reinvention of Spider-Man. I mean, it's great. And the Michael, the Michael Keaton, when he opens the door, it's perfect. Great movie moment, yeah. You know, we are coming to it, much like Emily Wilson and Christopher Nolan from different walks of experience.

Yes. How much of the text have we spent time with? Yeah. And how much of the text? do you need to see very specifically in the movies? I have never read a Spider-Man comic, but I do have two little boys at home. So when I watch Tom Holland as a teenager,

just being like happy-go-lucky, and I would love to look like Aunt May trying to protect him, you know? And so I just like, I mean, help me, Marissa Tomei. So I just, I don't have any preconceived interpretation of him. The Spider-Man, as a teenager, makes the most sense to me, just like it's the easiest on-ramp to a superhero because I'm not a man of a... The most accessible Spider-Man. Yeah, and the most accessible superhero because, like, again, I don't wander,

I don't walk around like feeling the burden of, you know, my greatness and my responsibility and my genius to people all the time. That's a man thing. So... Oh, quibble with that a little bit. But it's like... We can explore that in a future episode. Like, I, you know, I'm sorry that happened, but like, you know...

His parents were murder. I know. I've seen it 45,000 times. See? See, this is a legitimate criticism. We don't have to see them die again. And Spider-Man. That's an OG Jason Concepcion tape that we never have to see that happening again in the movie.

And that's really sad. But I, you know, and now he's inherited all the money in the world and has some gadgets. Cool. But like Superman is just, he feels like an outsider but also an inside. I don't know. I don't relate to any of them. I don't get it. Like, I don't, like, must be hard to have all that power. Spider-Man, he's just a kid trying to figure it out. It's cool. I understand. So that's, yeah. He likes girls. But also, you know, he has some higher calling. But, like, how much of the time is he going to spend on girls? How much of the time is he going to spend on his higher calling? You know, relatable. So- He got homework.

Exactly. So-I couldn't play football then, so I shouldn't do it now. Right? He's got prom. Right. And his girl's dad is the prom guy. Bad break. Keating leans over the car with the gun and you're like, yo, that's a hell of a scene. That like, anyway, I'm going to. It's just to say that that interpretation of Spider-Man speaks to me the most. What happened to Laura Harrier?

Good question. I haven't seen her much lately. Oh, you know what? She was in Michael. Who was she in Michael? Oh, yes. That's right. In like one scene.

Very important person in music history. An extremely important person in music history, television film history, so I had to pass. And all she gets to do in Michael is hand someone a card and then just like stand there. She was played by Vanessa Williams in the Jackson's an American Dream

miniseries, which is vastly superior. I've seen that to Michael. Yeah, so like, you know, she got more to do then. I think she made it maybe directly produced that one. There could be a whole movie about her. Absolutely. Her life is so interesting. She's like a seminal figure, yeah.

Anyway, to me, the worst Spider-Man movie is The Amazing Spider-Man, too. True. I feel like it's not really arguable, right? The nomination. Yeah. It is very, very unsuccessful. I love Andrew Garfield as an actor. I liked him in the first Amazing Spider-Man.

Didn't love, but I mostly agree with what you're saying in terms of, like, they hit a different tone. Just that one thing. Yeah. The second movie is a fiasco. Completely agree. Totally torpedoed his run as Spider-Man. And frankly, Mark Webb's career. He has not been the same ever since.

And was the catalyst for Sony getting into the deal with Disney and the MCU. Exactly right. Because they had to produce another one. They didn't want to make a sequel. And the best way to do it was either to make a Sinister Six movie, which no one was going to go see. I really wanted it, though. It was supposed to be Drew Goddard, who was supposed to make it. And I really fucking wanted that movie.

Like the Sinister 6 movies, which they didn't really want to do that. And they got into the deal with the MCU. So annoying, though, that we didn't get that movie, but we did get three Venom movies, Craven the Hunter and Morbius and Madam Webb. Yeah. You know the Sinister 6? It's like the six main bad guys. I think you've told me about them before. Yeah.

But I didn't commit it to memory. I did commit Madam Webb and the Pepsi can to memory, though. So at least we got that. What's the second worst Spider-Man movie? This one was hard for me. because it's either, and the animated movies are in this, right? They're way at the top. It's either Spider-Man 3 or the Amazing Spider-Man 1.

I agree. I think it's between those two. I think they're in 9 and 10 position, which goes first? So Spider-Man 3 is Thomas Hayden Church as the Sandman. That's correct. And amazing. Oh, my gosh. Gosh, I forgot about that.

With the bleached, blonde, yeah. Praying in church, caught. Right. And then. Well, you kills Peter Parker. And it's when, and Kirsten Duns, as MJ is, like, on Broadway. Yes. Very, very clearly not singing at all.

That's right. That's okay. She is many other talents. I would say Mary Jane is miserved by Spider-Man 3. When I was re-watching Spider-Man 3, I was thinking about how at this point in Kirsten Dunn's life, she had already made Marie Antoinette and was then like back on stage pretending to sing in Broadway.

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I didn't make it. 20th anniversary this year. And then Amazing Spider-Man has the Branzino. Oh. Does it?

Yeah. The Branzino scene. Yeah. When he goes to. Yeah. When they're going to dinner. Yeah. And he's poking at it.

Yes, of course. It's a good scene. It's good scene. I do like that scene as well. Yeah. A lot of questions. about Gwen Stacy's wardrobe choices at her very grown-up internship. I don't, did they not have like the fingertips on the skirts rule?

Oh, you're saying it was too revealing what Gwen was wearing? Not only is she wearing a short skirt, which is, speaking of reactionary. But then she's wearing, she's wearing knee-high boots. Then with, slut shaming, Gwen Stacy? Not slut-shaming. I'm saying that she is giving the tour for all the new interns. and she's wearing like sock boots

no like thigh high socks on knee high boots and a short skirt I'm a young woman can dress however she wants to dress I'm waiting to hear something bad and I just like to say that I think that there are many settings in which to wear that and your job where you're the lead tour guide is probably not one of them

that's my tip noted I'll let Emma Stone know what you said about her I think it's probably Spider-Man 3 and then the amazing Spider-Man, but it's a coin flip having just revisited Spider-Man 3. I probably go opposite, but I couldn't hate it. I couldn't hate it. I don't know why.

You know what? Come on. Toby McGuire turns into Venom. That's fucking sick, man. He's kind of sort of does, but not really. Tofer Grace turns into it. Toby McGuire. Toby McGuire.

Where's the black suit? Yeah, of course. I think it's probably, I think it's probably reverse. Okay. But I also think that it's... Amazing Spider-Man and then Spider-Man 3. than Spider-Man 3. I'm fine with that.

I mean, that's tough for Andrew Garfield. Another Leo. Do you remember his press conference when he was cast as Spider-Man and he talked about how important Spider-Man was to him? It's the most eloquent an actor has ever been about being cast as a superhero. He's so wonderful. Yeah. And he's great in the role.

I just think that just it's actually almost not a fair comparison because there's so many climatic things that happen in Spider-Man 3 and the movie is walking and silly, but it's just, it's kind of right. in the fumes of the first two. That's fine. I don't really care. Okay. Eight movies.

I feel like far from home is probably next. I agree. Mysterio. I love Jalenhall. It feels like just a little bit of a side quest movie. Now you're picking from only good movies now. I'm a little lower on far from home. Okay, cool. You're picking from movies then. I think I...

I'll say once we get to six is when I'm like, I pretty much like all these movies a lot. I was a little more charmed by far from home when I watched it this week than I was previously. And obviously, I like Tom Holland, but more than I... You love Europe. This is why you like this movie. Well, they do, you know, they do Rialto Bridge. I'm more of academia, but that's... And I also thought the opener with... You know, they have like the high school TV network do like a farewell to farewell video for all of the SNAP.

Yes. Individuals that opens it. And it was really, really funny. Yeah. But that's, yeah. So I was a little charmed, but that's fine. So the thing is, it's clearly a Holland movie that has to go right here. Mm-hmm.

And I think the other ones, you just can't possibly make a, you can't possibly put them right there to me. I think it's the least of the Holland movies But I like it I like it It's also The one tricky thing is This is where he and Zendaya Really figure out Spider-Man and MJ

Because MJ is in Homecoming But she's not Laura Harrier And she's kind of And so she's Just being very weird And funny in Far From Home And spouting off all her conspiracy theories

And then figures out that he's Spider-Man Is there another movie you would put here Instead of this movie? Well Your interest in Far From Home fascinates me Well, I just, listen, I did my homework. I refreshed everything. I don't know if it's my favorite, and I think of the Holland ones.

You know, I put it there, but like, I just prefer the Hollands to the Toby McGuire's, you know, and I know you can't. It's so hard with Spider-Man and Spider-Man, too, because they... They started, and that... Spider-Man changed movies. Listen, and it's Kiki, and it's the upside-down kiss, so you can't... Yeah. You can't put that lower. Yeah.

And then... The vibe of that movie, at the time. At the time of having so much fun And just totally locked in perfect casting for Osborne and Green Goblin I think Spider-Man 2 is just a real like comics person versus non-comics person What you mean? I just like I trust you guys but I don't get that at all. I don't care about Dr. Octopus.

Like I, you know, in the same way that you said when the big like the splash page in brand new day makes you come alive. I was kind of like, I spent the time being like, who is John Burnthal supposed to be right now? I just don't respond to it in the same way. But that's... I think it's also, to Van's point earlier, like, you're not a big horror movie person. And it's a great horror movie. It's a great Frankenstein werewolf movie where a guy just kind of is like transformed by his own creation into this demonic figure. And it becomes a very tragic story about Octavius in a way that it's just like very, very good genre movie making.

Did you guys? But it's much creature movie as it. is superhero. You guys we watch the movie, right? Yeah. The scene where he is being operated on and his tentacles come alive. Yes. And is like slaughtering the doctors.

It's scary. Yeah. Yeah. That deepens the seriousness and the stakes every time Peter is on screen with him. It's good. But there's good Peter and Mary Jane stuff in it too. Yeah. You know, we're like they split up and she's going to get married to somebody else.

and Spider-Man 2 is very high up there. We'll bargain. We're going to have to bargain. Is there another Holland going here? At eight? No, I would put... Oh, brand-new day? But it's his favorite, so I don't really know what to do.

That's interesting. Where do you think brand-new day is going? I think brand-new day is third. Hold on. If you're not, if you're counting the animated movies, then no. We are counting the animated movies. We didn't count the... We didn't count the... When we did ours, we were...

We didn't count the animated. I think we should. It's obviously not just Peter Parker, though Peter Parker is in these movies. So, Brandy day, is not as good as either one of the animated movies. I was actually less into across the Spider-Verts than other people were. But Brand-new Day is... Because it's trying to do too much? A little bit.

Yeah. But, it's very busy. Revisiting it, I was like, oh, this is really busy. But Brand-new Day is not as good as either one of those movies. The animation style and the music and the scope of that movie, though, is so crazy. It's such an accomplishing. I just remember when all the Spider-Man start, like, glitching or whatever. I had no idea.

what was happening, which, yeah, respectfully. So then seven is going to be... It looked cool. It's tough. It's probably between homecoming and brand new day. I want a caveat. I want a caveat. I like homecoming.

We're in pretty much really good movie zone here, for my taste at least. I think homecoming is... I think brand new day is better than the rest of these. I would go homecoming. Is it a tough? I would go homecoming, but I mean, I'm a guest. You would go brand new day. Yeah.

I think I would go brand new day too. I'm out of voted. Just put a thing in there. A, parentheses, van disagrees. Okay. All right. We could put that on the card, actually. Okay.

Top six. Now you're in the end game. Is it Spider-Man? Fuck. The original? Or homecoming. Oh, it's homecoming. It's homecoming.

Then Spider-Man. And then, and then Thunderdome. And then we have to figure out what we're doing. Okay. So, okay, I'll put home. Did you just put a manager sat here next to the title? No, then Five is No Way Home. And then Thunderdome.

Yeah, I will put home. Yeah, I'll put Homecoming there. Five, I'll put No Way Home. And then where in. And then what's left? Two, the two original live actions and the two animated ones. Okay. Well, just.

And now you're. Much like the rest of this podcast, I'm just sitting here while you're talking. I gave you a lot of leeway on Nolan, so you're going to have to roll with me on Spider-Man. I truly don't care. So go ahead. It's like, just the Kuma-Tame. I think it's across Spider-Man into Spider-Man 2. Oh, across Spider-Man into Spider-Man 2.

So this is something that people don't agree with me. I have Spider-Man 1 and 2 is almost identical quality. Okay. So I actually from a watching perspective, slightly prefer Spider-Man 1. You do. Because of the Green Goblin stuff, which I think is perfectly done.

However, that's a personal preference. And the reality is Spider-Man 2 is a higher filmmaking achievement. It is. It's a slightly better movement. I prefer Spider-Man 2 a little bit. The question would be really of that top 2 list, if we're being for real, is Spider-Man into the Spider-verse

actually better than Spider-Man too? Like, that's a pretty perfect movie. I agree with you. I agree. To me, it's a five-star movie. Like, I've said this, I said it when we were doing the show. That movie blew my mind.

Y'all going viral if y'all put it number one. But I think, I think there's a, if we're just being for real, if we're taking our personal preference out of it like I already have, you could make an argument that Into the Spider-Verse is slightly better than Spider-Man 2.

I've already said that the Spider-Man 2 is a thing that just doesn't speak to me in the same way that it speaks to you guys and Spider-verse does more so. But I also opted out

of this conversation a long time ago. What does the letterbox have? What do the people say? Actually, I'd be curious to know what the average rating is for those movies. It's 4.4. Into is a 4.4 which is pretty much as high

as you see a movie go. And then beyond Oh, look at Peter End. Beyond, Beyond. The live action Spider-Man 1 and 2 are both of 3.9. Beyond and a cross are both 4.4. It's nuts.

If you do something, I mean, you know. The Spider-Verse movies are... We know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Move me. Let me ask you this. They move me. It wasn't unmoved.

How much does culture fit into this? Because from that perspective, Spider-Man 1 and 2 are some of the most consequential. You said this. Yes. They're some of the most consequential movies in modern film history. I wrote in my newsletter today that the first Spider-Man film, it arrives in 02 in the year when everything dramatically changes.

When you get Harry Potter 2, Lord of the Rings 2, Men in Black 2, and then you get a ton of my big, fat Greek wedding, and signs an 8-mile. And you go down the list of, like, all the huge movies that came out in 2002. But Spider-Man specifically, which was the highest-grossing movie of that year, a movie set in New York City after 9-11, that movie, and the flag is billowing behind Peter in the movie when he's racing to save Mary Jane,

that movie shifted honestly for the worse, in my opinion, what Hollywood thought its mission was. That doesn't change how much I liked that movie. I loved that movie when it came out, and I still do. And I was a kid who loved Sam Ramey movies when I was a teenager. It really did. And the globalized box office really kind of kicks off at this time, where we see there's more money to be made in Europe and Asia

from our films maybe even than in America. But that's not, I can't hold that against it either when we're having a conversation like this. Hold what against it? The fact that I think it kind of tipped things in a negative direction for Hollywood for 20 years. I mean, yeah, because you like, see, you know. It just became franchise city.

The Marvel guys go, okay, well, we got to get a $500 million loan from Merrill Lynch and do our thing. That's right. The characters we have less. Me too. They look at that and they go, that's money that we are not making.

All right. I mean, I'm good with that. There's going to be, there's going to be controversy. But I'm good with that. So Spider-Man 2 is number one. You really could swap those. You want the internet going crazy because we put into the Spider-Verse at one? I just think that y'all, y'all probably going to get love.

I'm not going to see any of it because I'm going to be on vacation. Me too. And I don't accept any of the clabs when there are superheroes involved. Bro, like... Don't come into the meme posts with your ideas. The meme posts are our space, okay? Keep your bot army stuff on topic, okay? I am the moderator, and I say that's our space.

I just, you know, like, someone stumbles across some random algorithm, and suddenly I got to hear their feelings about, like, who Ghost Rider is. I don't care. You know, this is my space. Yeah. I get it. I heard, I say something about Ghost Rider. I heard that this idea is like a lot of it,

I mean, they talked about this. A lot of it's coming from Ryan. From Gosling, yeah. And I heard that the idea is phenomenal. And people are being tight-lipped about it. Not really talking about it. But I heard that the idea itself is pretty amazing. Why don't you just share what it is?

They didn't tell me. Okay. Well, that's a great way to get people talking about it. Hey, I heard this idea is phenomenal. What's the idea? No one's allowed to say. You know that's how they talk. Yeah, sure.

You know that's how they talk. You know that's how they talk. Like, this is getting made because this is like the greatest thing we've ever heard. Okay, tell me a little bit about it. Can't do that. I'm as susceptible to that as anybody,

but like it is still Ghost Rider. Yeah. He's a guy who dies and turns into a skeleton who bursts into flames. Like, how cool could it be? We know what Ghost Rider is. I repeat the shit, but I've been burned like five times.

So, so like, they told me the same thing about the trash. Is Sean Levy's still directing it? I swear. Say no more. Okay. Whoa! Okay, free guy. That's good. I mean, I'll say this.

Just for... I'm just strong-armed at the end here. This is, I was like, this is what I want to happen. For consistency's sake, you probably got to put Spider-Man 2, number one, but I'm being for real. Just on quality of movie, I remember I left into the Spider-verse blown away. Almost a time. You know what else I like about Into the Spider-Verse?

What? It made me think about, well, of course I love the representation. I love Miles. But I actually was like, Chris Pine could have been an interesting Spider-Man, casting him as the Peter Parker who is kind of vanquished at the beginning of it. There's a lot of little choices

in the movie that kind of gratify your old-school Spider-Man fans and also make it a very modern telling, which is really hard for comic book movies to do as we talked about with this brand-new-day conversation. Epic episode of this show. Incredibly deep, lots of personal lore shared. Okay.

Lots of deep discussion of subjectivity as a driving point for taste amongst podcasters. Not just podcasters, pretty much everything. Guys, guys, I'll be honest. I'm not going to go over well when I say this. If I wanted to, just based on the numbers that I've put up in terms of what we talk about when I'm on here. Oh, wow, third chair.

If I wanted to. You think you want a third chair? If I wanted to, I'm not going to, if I wanted to, obviously I don't have the stature of a CR, I don't have the bona fides of a Tracy, okay? But if I wanted to just face off what happens when I'm here, I could make the argument that I'm third chair. Okay.

Okay, it's like, C.R. has his own lore here at the ringer. Nobody fucking with that. It's really, you know, starting to come, like, come for the fucking. You're like Lancelot almost. It's a Lancelot King Arthur thing starting to happen at this moment. Do you think that Bill hears the footsteps? I think he definitely hears him.

You know what I mean? That's why he tried to throw a little assist just to see what he was capable of. You know what I mean? Do you think you check the numbers? How well did that CR episode do? I think that's one of those ones where you bring somebody in

and just go, okay, let's see if you can sit in the big seat just to test the check to check your temperature a little bit. So I'm not about to act like I'm on the, And then Tracy brings, you know, it's like playwright, right guy, you know, comes from a royal family of the Hollywood and his wife is beautiful and talented and he's great and all of that stuff. But if we're just talking about quality of what happens on the show and where we go, I don't know, man. I respect you. I respect you.

I respect you staking that claim. I could see a world where I'm in there. I'm kind of like the Miles Morales of the third chair argument. I got my own universe. Sure. Yeah. Just saying, we got busy today. We did. The rankings I'm going to do very quickly as a recap.

I closed my tab and have no idea what they are. Number 11 is The Amazing Spider-Man 2. Number 10 is The Amazing Spider-Man, RIP Garfield. Number 9 is Spider-Man 3. Number 8 is Spider-Man far from home. Number 7 is Spider-Man brand-new-day Van disagrees. Number 6 is Spider-Man homecoming. Number 5 is Spider-Man, no way home.

Number 4 is Spider-Man across the Spider-Ververse. Number 3 is Spider-Man. Number 2 is Spider-Man into the Spider-Vverse. and number one is Spider-Man 2. Oh, you didn't switch it at the end? I didn't, no. Okay. I have to stand on business

when it comes to Spider-Man. Okay. Thank you. Always. Third chair in waiting. Third chair in waiting. Higher learning, the ringerverse, tailgate, rewatchables.

What else is in the mix? That's just stuff. Lots of great stuff coming out. Lots of great stuff. Okay. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Thank you to Lucas Cavanaugh.

Thank you to Amanda Dobbins. I'm going on vacation imminently. Yeah. Are you serious? All the content pushes over, so you got a little low. Yes. So actually, it was more than happy to go two and a half with you guys

because I won't be doing this for a while. Right. We do have an episode coming early next week, which is our Canadian movie draft, which we taped live in Toronto a couple weeks ago. That's right. You'll be able to hear that. And then Amanda's in the big seat.

I am. Can I tell everyone? If you'd like to. Yeah. we're going to have a special guest Juliette Lippman on the show Oh yeah We're doing one night only

While you guys were doing that Honestly Juliet Lippman was texting me about a specific location Used in the film One Night Only Which we will discuss along with the 21st century romantic comedy canon Get ready

I'm excited I'm excited for you I'm excited for Juliet I'm excited for the listeners at home I'll see you guys on the other side of my vacation