The Big Picture - ‘Spider-Man: Far From Home’ Is Here, and So Is the Future of MCU (SPOILERS) | Exit Survey

Episode Date: July 2, 2019

Friendly neighborhood MCU fan Micah Peters joins the show to discuss ‘Spider-Man: Far From Home,’ the Marvel movie tasked with following ‘Avengers: Endgame,’ the wonders of Jake Gyllenhaal’s Mysterio, and how the movie stacks up to last year’s smash hit ‘Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse.’ Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Micah Peters Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. This week on TheRinger.com, our staff is ranking the 100 best moments in culture so far in 2019. This includes everything that happened in film, TV, celebrity news, memedom, and more. Cracking the top 100 so far are J-Lo and A-Rod's engagement, the rise of Lizzo, and the Cliff wife phenomenon. Also, be sure to listen and subscribe to Ringer Dish, our new celebrity podcast, and catch the latest episode covering their favorite moments from this year in pop culture. You can subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man.

And joining me today is our friendly neighborhood Spider-Man correspondent, Micah Peters. Hello, Micah. Hello, Sean. How are you doing today? I'm good, man. We're continuing a tradition of talking about Spider-Man movies, Micah Peters. Hello, Micah. Hello, Sean. How are you doing today? I'm good, man. We're continuing a tradition of talking about Spider-Man movies on this podcast together. We love to talk about Spider-Man movies. We love to see a Spider-Man movie. And we saw what I thought was a very good one earlier this week.

It really was, like, fantastic. The movie is called Spider-Man Far From Home. It is directed by John Watts. It is produced by Kevin Feige and Amy Pascal. It is written by Chris McKenna and Eric Summers. All those people worked on the last Spider-Man movie, not the one that we talked about, though the last Spider-Man movie in the MCU, that was Spider-Man Homecoming. Since then, we've had an animated Spider-Man movie called Into the Spider-Verse, which you and I are very fond of. And we'll talk a little bit about that

movie later on in this show. Give me some general reflections though on Far From Home before we dive deep into the theme, the story, what this means for the MCU, et cetera, et cetera. Far From Home is essentially cleaning up the like residual effects of Endgame. This is largely dealing, well, Peter Parker largely dealing with stepping into Tony Stark's shoes, which are massive and impossible to fill as he finds out. And you liked it a lot. I loved it. Yeah, I would highly recommend this movie. It's a bit strange to be recommending movies in the MCU at this point.

I mean, like, you're going to go see this shit anyway. It's a bit like, yeah, it's like recommending water. Exactly. Drink more water. You have to drink water. You have to drink water. When we walked out, I think my first reaction was, if these are the only kinds of movies we're going to get,

at least they're good versions of these kinds of movies. Yeah. And maybe that's a sliding scale of emotional value, but I dig this movie. I dig the way that they have kind of jerry-rigged this franchise. It's funny that this is, now if you include Spider-Verse, the fourth iteration

of a Spider-Man world that we've gotten in this century, but it's working. It's working really well. Let's go right into it. I'm just going to say right here, we're going to spoil this movie. I think to talk about this movie... We have to, we're going to have to,

I mean, yes, this podcast contains spoilers literally right after I finish talking. So here we go, we're spoiling. The reason I'm saying that is because this movie returns end credit sequences to the Spider-Verse, this Spider-Verse. And after no end credit sequence at the end of Endgame, the two things that happen at the end of the movie in the end credit sequences, and we will not say them quite yet, but those got the loudest response during the whole movie, I would say. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I just wanted to know before we go any further, what you thought about the idea of saving the most consequential things for minute 145, instead of like putting them maybe right in the middle of the movie that you paid for? I would say that I literally don't know to expect anything different at this point,

just because that's exactly what happened with Captain Marvel. Like, really, the only real consequential thing from Captain Marvel was the stinger that rolled after the credits. It wasn't like the movie itself was enjoyable. I mean, like, I loved Ben Mendelsohn as the Skrull. But I mean, like, it's, you know, the movie itself was like a two-and-a-half-hour commercial for the movie that was coming out a month later yeah and in some ways that's true for this movie as well although it's

going to be a long time before another mcu movie comes out so i found this to be an interesting way to end that movie the thing about this is this movie works well as a comic book this feels like an issue or a two or three series run of comic books where Spider-Man goes to Europe. Sure. What happens to Spider-Man in Europe? Uh, it's also a, I mean, like, it's just like a really good teen comedy. It's a really good teen movie. I mean, the movie begins with like a really poorly edited, like AV, like montage from the AV department, like during the morning announcements that are kind of like, you know, rest in peace Tony Stark, and you can see

the Shutterstock watermark on everything, and the transitions are shit, and they're just like, damn, that was crazy, right? People were gone for five years and then just showed back up, and they were taller and beefier and had facial hair and their beards were connecting, and the rest

of us just kind of came back exactly as we were. And that's weird. It's kind of like an acknowledgement of the, the strange like temporal elements of end game. The more that you read about time travel in that movie and the way that it futzes with like space time, it makes less and less sense. And this is like a good way of acknowledging that up top in a really enjoyable and kind of cutesy way.

Enjoyable and cutesy is what I would describe most of Far From Home like. Yeah, I agree with you. And I think that there's something about the way they've positioned Peter Parker inside the bigger Avengers universe, I guess, where he is still the kid looking up at everybody. Oh, yeah.

And all the characters in his high school, which I think is, is still the kid looking up at everybody and all the characters in his high school, which I think is, is it called Midtown high school, which is not a real high school in Queens. Uh, all of those kids are also observing Iron Man and the Avengers from below, you know, those, they are very much the heroes of the world and these are just regular folks. And so these movies are naturally more self-contained, even though Spider-Man has all these great powers. I love that intro. I love the way that the film opens with, I will always love you.

The Whitney Houston mega ballad. Actually, they used the Dolly Parton version. No. Yeah, they did. That was what they credited with at the end of the... I think that's just the writing credit. The vocal has got to be Whitney. That was definitely Whitney

okay it was Bobby let's let's play a little I Will Always Love You right here so Micah can be reminded that it was definitely

Whitney Houston God bless the dead and I will always love you I will always love you. I will always love you. So they open with the Whitney's I Will Always Love You. And as you said, they have this sort of My First Eye movie confection, this ode to fallen heroes. And I think right before that, actually, we do meet Mysterio, right?

Yes. The actual action of the film opens somewhere in Mexico um uh Asian Hill and Nick Fury are checking out some electromagnetic spike on some reader somewhere whatever it doesn't matter they turn around and notice that there's this giant rock monster and then Jake Gyllenhaal shows up, you know, looking very professionally bearded, and goes, you don't want any part of this. And that's like the, it's so corny,

but you will understand that it is kind of, yeah, it's extremely important the way that that happens. Yes, I found the character of Mysterio to be a real dividing line between I know about comic books and I don't know about comic books. And we'll get to this, but if you don't know anything about comic books, I think Mysterio's arc is probably more fun and unpredictable. And if you do know, then you know. And you know where it's going right away. Exactly. And that corniness that you're describing is very purposeful

and very performed one might say but so after we meet Mysterio and then we meet the kids in the high school we start to understand that what they're calling

the blip happened and the events of Endgame were largely and Infinity War were that five year period is known as the blip there are some students in the high school

who are large and old and there are some who are the high school who are large and old and there are some who are properly aged i don't know that i fully understand it i still i still don't i still don't um and i'm not going to attempt to try to explain it yeah do you think the mcu is purposefully trying to confuse us in an effort to just uh yada yada everything well yeah because you have to that's the way it is in literally any comic book. It's pseudoscience and it just needs to have somewhat consistent internal logic. It doesn't necessarily need to explain fully what's happening.

It just needs to orient you in terms of the story. I think one thing that this movie does is since it's largely oriented around a trip that Peter Parker's class has taken to Europe where I think they first go to Italy and then they move on to Prague

and then they go to Paris? London? London. It's London. I don't think they never they crucially never

make it to Paris. They never make it to Paris. They never made it to Paris. But because of that we spend a lot more time with Peter's classmates. Laura Harrier's character in the first film

is no longer here. I think she's moved on to Oregon. Yeah. And replacing her, obviously, Jacob Batalon as Ned Leeds is back.

And there's a lot of screen time for Zendaya as MJ, who is more or less Mary Jane Watson, even though she's not Mary Jane.

And there's a little bit of time for Angori Rice, too, who quickly becomes Ned's girlfriend. Do you know Angori Rice's work? She was in The Bad Guy. She was Russell Crowe's daughter in that movie with... The Other Guys. The Other Guys, yeah. She's very good.

She's very funny. She plays Betty Brant, which I think is canon spider-man right betty brant i believe so yes yes yes and then we get martin star again back as their teacher and also jb smooth added to the chaperone list as the biology teacher who is a believer in witchcraft and you know they've assembled a pretty fun as a man of science witches did this man you've got a strong recall for the specific lines of dialogue from this film

it's a blessing and a curse I think that the cast that they have going in this universe is part of what just what makes these movies work now that's probably true in most of the MCU movies

at this point they've gotten expert at putting the right people in the right position to succeed but I found myself even if I didn't ultimately care about the big scope and shape of the story, just kind of having a good time watching Ned and Peter interact, watching Ned find love, watching Peter and MJ kind of figure out the will they, won't they of it all. What do you make of the people they've chosen to be the center of these movies? I mean, if you think about like

the original trilogy of Spider-Man movies, I mean, everybody in the cast was 30 plus. And we were supposed to believe that they were in high school. No fucking way. Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone, great. They have wonderful chemistry. They are very obviously in college, at least. Right? But Tom Holland is 23.

Looks and sounds like a 16 year old. He's got a passing for 15, frankly. Yeah. Zendaya is 22, maybe. Also looks and sounds like a 16 year old. Like these are all, I believe that these kids are in high school. Me too. Which is the, I mean, what sells the whole thing. I mean, Zendaya is literally portraying another high school student on Euphoria on HBO right now.

Exactly. So she's got the bona fides. Let's talk about Mysterio a little bit because Mysterio is, of course, not in high school. He is, in comics canon, Quentin Beck, his character, is a failed actor who has a knack for special effects. I believe Mysterio was created in the 60s by Stanley and Jack Kirby. And his character is probably more relevant and more interesting now, given where special effects have gone in the movie world. Well, yeah.

Also, the way that the through line of the movie, like the underlying like thematic thing is this whole idea of what is believable what is true nothing is true everything is permitted that sort of thing people will believe whatever you feed them

and that is like that's a I like that spin on the Mysterio character also like Jake Gyllenhaal as just extremely ready to yell at a stagehand energy is delightful. Listeners of this podcast know that we stan Jake Gyllenhaal every day. We wake up every day, we salute the Gyllenhaal flag. This is a banner entry in the Gyllenhaal canon. I really think that this is a perfect part in the in the gyllenhaal canon i really think that this is a perfect part for him because as you mentioned he he starts the movie essentially operating as a hero

his heroism is of course his own design so we learn in the movie that he is not actually a hero not actually better battling monsters he does not actually have any superpowers he is not from the alternate universe earth that he suggests he is from. He has some very familiar ideas about what heroism is and how it functions and, you know, like how we place it within like the broader fabric of life or whatever. It's just like he's he believes that hero worship is stupid, which is like really another one of those like slight deconstructions of the entire superhero movie genre in a really entertaining way. And I also like the fact that he is trying to sell S.H.I.E.L.D. on the fact that he is from a different Earth as a commentary on all the theories about what's happening in the MCU. He's just like, yo, this is Earth 616 and I'm from Earth 832. It's a good bit. I couldn't remember if like Earth 832 is, I remember that Earth 616,

like there was a lot of news items in the lead up to the movie where it's just like, this is the first actual MCU movie where they mention that there are multiple Earths and that they actually say the words Earth 616. When I come in after the July 4th holiday, I'm going to be like,

yo Micahah this is sean from earth 632 i've been confabbing with sean from earth 816 i've learned a lot about you in another universe some facts i want to share how will you respond uh i will probably just run really fast in the opposite direction i don't want to hear anything you have to say what if what if we mess up the entire like we i'm not you know? I'm cool on tearing holes in the fabric of space-time. Me too. We should endeavor to do that. But first, we're going to keep doing this podcast. I think that, unfortunately, no one runs far away from Quentin Beck and or Mysterio in the movie. They run towards him. The S.H.I.E.L.D. agents run towards him. They believe every word that he says.

They've organized an entire operation around him. His illusions are so powerful. And what we learn are his team of illusionists are so gifted that he's able to create a new reality. Like the acting troupe that Jim Carrey has in a series of unfortunate events. I've never seen that series. You've never seen it? No.

It's not the series. Oh, the film. I haven't seen the film. Speak on it. Damn, dog. You haven't seen it? Okay, well, never mind. i haven't seen the film speak on it damn dog you haven't okay well never mind i haven't seen the sound of music haven't seen a series of unfortunate events i'm sorry okay well anyway like you know jim carrey um by jude law's in jude law's own words in the movie is a talentless villain and uh goes around with his acting troop and is just kind of like everything is a film

production. Like they, the Baudelaire children basically recognize other people in his troop in the wings. And they're just like, that's how we know that this is all bullshit. And somebody, any adult, please help us. So that is very similar to the story that is told in this movie which is that Mysterio has his troop and they are a visual effects coordinator and a costume designer and all manner of line producers essentially yeah and scientists scientists and working with him to create the illusion of Mysterio as a hero and I can't say I totally understand Mysterio's motivations. I understand he was fired by Tony Stark. We know that.

I think that it's just like another situation where the MCU is making callbacks to itself. I mean, because remember there was the montage after the big reveal that Quentin Beck is a fraud, you know, like in a bar or whatever. And he's just going through and thanking everybody individually. And these people were actually extras in past MCU, in past Iron Man movies.

Yes. Is that actually true? Like if you go back and watch those movies, will you see those people? Or was that- I know at least two of them, yes. Okay. But I mean, like,

it's just another way for it to, a fun way to call back and also do an in memoriam at the same time. So yeah, these are all people that have been otherwise scorned or otherwise tamped down by Tony Stark and his massive ego. So the thing that I really like about this character is that I think it's Gyllenhaal's ode slash parody of all of the crazy directors that he's worked with in the past.

Oh, yeah. Longtime followers of the Gyllenhaal mythology will know that David Fincher almost broke him over his knee during the making of Zodiac by making him do 99 takes of moving a pencil from one side of a table to another. And I think that there's a little bit of Fincher going on in Gyllenhaal's Mysterio. And I think that he liked the idea of this part because it gave him a chance to kind of lampoon

the people who have been moving him around the chessboard of movie life. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's great. Like the way that he snaps on people is great. It's just like, you know, if we don't get this exactly right, Nick Fury is going to put a bullet in my head. Nobody wants a bullet in their head, do they?

Do they? Do they? Steve? Once again, I have a remarkable recall for the dialogue. I don't even think his name was Steve. I just said Steve because I couldn't figure out what his name was in that instance. But you know what I'm talking about. I do know what you're talking about.

You know, he is having such a good time. Yeah, and it's funny when he does that sequence, he is controlling a series of drones. And I think one of the things that Mysterio does is he, along with obviously Spider-Man and the Tom Holland Spider-Man's relationship with the Iron Man is that Quentin Beck has a relationship to Iron Man. And the fact that he was fired by Iron Man makes Iron Man the shadow that looms large over this movie.

And the frequent callbacks to him don't just come in the form of those two characters, but in the technology and was just kind of like working class blue collar guy that got messed, that got fucked over by the government in the aftermath of the first Avengers movie when he was picking up scrap metal. So he's just like, you know what, I'm going to become a supervillain. Same kind of thing. It's just like workplace grievance turns into mass terrorism. Do you think because he doesn't have the interplanetary superpowers of a Thanos that makes him a lesser villain or hurts the movie in any meaningful way? No, I don't think it

weakens the movie in any meaningful way because the movie isn't necessarily about the villain. It's more so about Peter and his finding his place in the universe, multiverse. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I feel like also Happy Hogan and his consistent reappearances is part of the Iron Man through line, the vestigial tale of the Iron Man story.

Yeah, I mean, it's just kind of like he has the deferred of looks of just being like, this is why Tony chose you kind of thing. You need him there to do that. Because again, Peter Parker is 16 and a little lost. But yeah, the happy Hogan. And we got to talk about Marissa Tomei. Let's talk. How can I talk about it while maintaining my position here at The Ringer?

I don't know, man. That's on you. That is your, this is, I'm just saying that I need to state for posterity that you turned to me after the movie was over and said, Man, Marissa Tomei. Damn. That was the whole, that was the whole comment. I like it was, And it's truth, though. Marissa Tomei and I have been together for a long time.

We've been connecting since my cousin Vinny, which is coming up on 30 years ago, which is just wild to me. And that means that Marissa Tomei is 54. And man, she has not lost a step. She is just the Lou Will of movie moms of Aunt May's.

It will be 2075 and she will still be coming off the bench averaging 11 points. And the movie knows how beautiful and charming she is. It really is spotlighting that and obviously they use Happy as a way to kind of show us. Happy kind of becomes a proxy for I think a lot of guys like me and maybe you being like, wow, it really is spotlighting that. And obviously they use Happy as a way to kind of show us, Happy kind of becomes a proxy for, I think,

a lot of guys like me and maybe you being like, wow, Marcelle May, beautiful. She's just, she's great. I mean, she's obviously a great actress and an Oscar winner. And, you know, she has a long career, but this movie is literally just, look at how hot Anne May is. You know, the first film did the same thing. We'd never had a young Anne May before.

And she is, she is, she's putting did the same thing. We'd never had a young Aunt May before and she is, she is, she's putting in work. Yeah. I'm happy for her. Speaking of the leading ladies of this Spider-Verse, what do you make of

Zendaya's increased role in the movie and kind of her centrality to the story that they're telling with Peter? I mean, like,

it's a, like, Far From Home is, like, in the way that all T movies are, like, at its heart, a love story. Like, Home is, in the way that all teen movies are, at its heart, a love story. And the thing is that it's a really truthful one, because Tom Holland and Zendaya are really good at recreating those awkward pauses, the weird conversations you have where you both are getting at something, but are terrified of naming it.

And like, even the kiss at the end is just completely, it's, it is so adorable that they just cannot like be normal around each other. Yeah. It's a soft peck, which is what a lot of first kisses are like, and then they kind of go in for more of a kill.

Which is like such a, which is, I mean, again, and we were talking about this after the movie is just like then the first spider man movie like toby maguire is saves kirsten dunst from some muggers and is hanging upside down from a fire escape and then she like cool as anything on earth just rolls his mask down and gives him a kiss upside down nobody is that sexy is that sexy in high school nobody knows what they're doing like that in high school like not to that degree yeah and that this moment in far from home is a great subversion of probably the most famous moment in all the raimi spider-man movies yeah which is that

that kiss that you're talking about and it shows that while i think the Raimi Spider-Man movies. Yeah. Which is that kiss that you're talking about. And it shows that while I think the Raimi Spider-Man movies are very good and are aging well and people have a lot of fondness for them, especially the first two, especially number two, they are too polished.

They are too mature. And not just because the actors are 30 and they should be 17, but there is something... And superhero movies needed to be this way at this time. In some ways we needed to open the tent up a little bit wider so that more people could see these movies. But now I think one of the things that the John Watts movies is doing really well is being true to the Spider-Man story. I think Spider-Verse did that as well, but

that was similarly a real high school story with a real kid. And Peter Parker, the appeal of that character is he's a kid. He's making a lot of mistakes. He doesn't know what to do. He's really nervous to tell the girl that he likes that he likes her. And I don't know how much longer they're going to be able to do this with Tom Holland. I don't know how long. He's probably going to be 5'6 for the rest of his life.

But he said, and I quote, that I really want to keep playing Spider-Man. Hopefully, I can keep playing Spider-Man until I can't walk. Which, you know, I really love that enthusiasm. Love it. But, you know, the veneer will break soon enough. Honestly, if he's doing his own stunts, he may not be walking very much longer. So it's hard to say how long that will be. Yeah.

As far as keeping the teen aspect of this story, what grade are they in? Do we know? 10th, 11th, 12th? Yes. Does Spidey have to go to college soon? No, he doesn't have to go to college soon. I don't think they're,

I think they're technically still underclassmen. Okay, so they're going to keep them in this John Hughes framework for a little while longer, you think? Yeah, at least for a third movie, I would think. Let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by CNN. We love movies here at The Big Picture, and CNN is doing something really cool with movies

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Let's talk about the themes. You kind of mentioned what the Quentin Beck Mysterio character brings to the movie, in part, which is this idea really of fake news. I think that's kind of the thematic element that they're using to get this story across, which is don't believe everything that you see. The way that the media presents information is not to be trusted. And narrativizing is a very powerful tool. Yeah. I mean, like, it's also just like the, yeah, there you go. Narrativizing is a powerful tool. I mean, the first news reports in, when they are in Venice of Mysterio fighting the water monster, I think it was, they were just like the elemental. Yeah. The, the elemental, um, he was like, it comes out of there just like they're talking about the man

of mystery that saved us all and it says mysterio is just mystery in italian and then like everybody starts calling him mysterio and it's just like this really good um note about the way that so many things are a game of telephone yeah i thought that was a very clever way of introducing the phraseology of his character into the world um i think that there's something interesting about a movie like this trying to tangle with an idea's biggest fake news and when we get to the end of the movie and we get to that first end credit sequence that first stinger and we see the return of jay jonahon, played by J.K. Simmons. And he is essentially... He is Alex Jones. He is Alex Jones.

It's so good. It's a video spot in which he appears on a big screen in the middle of Times Square after Spidey and MJ have gone for a soaring ride via webs. And he's just hollering into a microphone on some sort of YouTube vlog. We'll never find another hero like Mysterio. Pitching fake news. And I will say when we were in the theater and that moment hit where J. Jonah showed up, people wilded out. They freaked out.

It was honestly bigger than any other reaction in the entire movie's runtime. And it was an authentically fun moment. Like a great reveal and almost like a great last page of a comic book where you're like, god damn it, I wish I had the new issue right now. And that's what good comic book movies can do now. That is the sort of the function that they serve, especially if they're acting as

one episode in this long TV series. Yeah, you're just like, yeah, give me JK7's shirtless eating of well-cooked steak just out of spite to own the libs. But at the risk of being a little too serious

about a movie that is not that serious, is there any part of you that thinks that maybe it's toying a little bit too much with kind of a serious problem in the world right now?

You know what? I would feel worse about it if they did a poor job with it. I don't necessarily need to. I mean, all of the MCU movies, I mean, Captain America Civil War was about the surveillance state. These movies have have had for a while now larger issues that they wanted to be about this is just a different one and one that like you know most of the people

that are going to watch it have been thinking about somewhat so I don't think it's overbearing no I don't think it's overbearing either I think

you have to you have to be searching for it to locate it yeah but then the Alex Jones-ian J. Jonah kind of draws the point home

a little unmistakable at the end there I think also just because of the presence of Jake Gyllenhaal's Mysterio

the whole movie is kind of about movies the whole movie is kind of about how you convince people to care about something that is fake

and it's great because there's also a really hilarious comedic beat where after he's kind of already been outed and he's watching his projection of himself fight the largest, biggest, baddest elemental and he's just like,

he's giving stage directions while Mysterio, quote unquote, is flying around fighting this thing. And he's just screaming, this is for my family. It's definitely, it's sort of, he's sort of mocking Captain America and Reed Richards and all of these sort of historical alpha male hero types who are all burned by what's happened to them in their past,

which has inspired them to become heroes into the future. Let's just talk a little bit about superhero fatigue. I have been reading the reviews of this movie, which are mostly positive. I think it's kind of hard to deny that these movies are well-made and that they're fun and that the cast is very winning. So at worst, you'd have a good time.

But I think because of those lowered stakes that we're describing and because there's a lot of stuff larded into the last two minutes of it that it seems more consequential than everything that comes before, people are using superhero fatigue as a phrase of relevance.

I think we got past Endgame, which was this years in the making proposition. I wrote a piece actually on the ringer last week about the kind of some of the problems that Hollywood's having in this very slow box office. And I cited a piece that Mark Harris wrote for Graylin in 2014 called Birdcage. And in that piece, he identified via a graphic, the entire forthcoming six year plan for the MCU. And in there, he noted that Endgame is essentially the last movie that they named. So we knew in 2014,

we were going towards what was then called Infinity War 2. And we're past it. It's over. It was the movie event of the year, maybe even of the decade. They're going to put it back in theaters and it's going to be the highest grossing movie

ever made surpassing Avatar. And now we got this pretty fun Spider-Man movie with much lower stakes much lower noise uh-huh critics are like i i feel like we wrapped all this up do we have to keep doing this how do you feel about the idea of being fatigued by something like this we were kind of having a conversation about this before the movie started about like how i felt watching in-game if i thought about it for any amount of time after it was over I was just like yeah that was that was kind of mid but the thing is that

like while I was in the theater seeing some of these things happen and I've been with these characters for as long as I have I mean it's kind of like I would never go so far as to say the finale of How I Met Your Mother was good, but I had to see it because like I've, because I've invested all this time anyway. But would you say you enjoyed episode 39 of How I Met Your Mother significantly more than you enjoyed the series finale of How I Met Your Mother? I can't, I couldn't tell you that. Like, it's just like, it all runs together. But the thing is, is that. But you like the show. i like the show and the thing is that like that's really what i think it was that i was talking to alice and herman about this i can't

remember if this was a conversation that just the two of us were having or she told me about i can't remember but anyway it was just kind of like you know yeah these movies are essentially like really long television episodes, like setting up next week's thing. And it is, some of those are better episodes than others. This one felt like, you know, a kind of come back down to earth filler episode, but it was a fun one nonetheless, like a bottle episode of sorts,

except for the fact that they tossed something at the end of it. Yeah, I think the question will be, is this now, has the generation that came up underneath you, let's say, been fully coerced into just believing that this is modern entertainment? And so they'll go see any of these movies just because. Just because that's what you do. And because you get to have that moment in the movie theater like you do in Endgame when you can hear Sam sing on your left. Or when J. Jonah Jameson shows up on the screen. And you get that kind of frantic like, oh shit feeling. Which is a feeling that honestly you just don't get that much in modern life. And I think people are maybe probably willing to pay $16, $18 to have that three or four times a year.

Or will people just realize that this is like the Western and that its time is passing and they will continue to make superhero movies for the next hundred years, but they will not have the power and influence that they had in the 50s and 60s. I don't know. I think about that.

I mean, yeah, you would be better equipped to make prognostications about the future of the movie business but the thing is that I don't see it being yeah it's not going to be a thing that's I mean nobody's going to start suddenly

hating money I mean like everybody's making everybody's making a lot of it off of this off of box of it off of this, off of box office sales, off of toy sales, off of video games, off of whatever, you know? So it's going to continue into perpetuity. I think that like, yeah, maybe it's not going to be the same as me going to the theater to see the first Avengers movie or going to see the first Iron Man movie, it's not going to be as novel. But the thing is, is that it will probably be, it's not going to be as novel, but I feel like they've gotten into a stride where these are going to be good enough, which kind of brings us back to your point about if these are going to be

the only movies that are really going to keep being made on such a large scale, at least they figure out how to make them. Yeah, so let's talk about what the future holds because we talked about that first stinger scene which ends with J. Jonah Jameson revealing to the public at large that Spider-Man's identity is Peter Parker,

which was also a gasp-worthy moment. And then you and I sat through the entire end credits, and there was another stinger. And this one was pretty clever, and I don't know how consequential it was, so I want to ask you about that. So we learned very quickly that the figures that we thought were Nick Fury and Agent Maria Hill were actually Talos the Skrull and his partner, whose name I can't recall. And they are shapeshifters and they were standing in for Nick Fury during this entire film yeah did you did you also did your ears perk

up when uh when Peter was just kind of like I can't remember exactly what was happening oh yeah this is like after their first brush with the the elementals and he's figuring out like you know this is kind of outside of my pay grade I just want to go on my vacation with my friends like can't you call captain marvel or somebody and nick fury goes don't invoke her name which i was just like that's a weird thing for you to be saying but i didn't know what was up interesting yeah well that makes sense now good remember uh when we see these two scrolls driving in the car and then we see that they're corresponding with the real Nick Fury, who I think is on a spaceship with the surviving Skrull.

Yeah, because at the end of Captain Marvel, she was just like, I'm going to go find these people a new home. Right. So what did that mean? Did that mean that we're entering a phase? Because this is essentially considered the end of phase three in the MCU.

It was not Endgame. It's this movie is the last one. The next year, Phase 4 starts. Does that mean that most of Phase 4 is spacebound? Was that your impression? I think so. I mean, that is generally what tends to happen the further you get down in different sagas of any title. So yeah, I mean, like,

I think space is the next thing, sure. So right now, here's what we know is happening. Nick Fury and the Skrull race are on a ship looking for a new planet. Wear my shoes. Captain Marvel traverses the universe saving planets. Thor and the Guardians of the Galaxy are in space

off on another adventure somewhere yeah Doctor Strange is surfing on the astral plane and who else is in space right now

I guess what we have coming soon is the Eternals yeah which is for those of you who don't know Chloe Zhao's

new MCU movie that I guess is coming out next fall starring Angelina Jolie, Kumail Nanjiani, and it was announced this week, Salma Hayek, and Richard Madden of Game of Thrones and Bodyguard fame. And that's also, I think, a prequel, a historic prequel that goes hundreds of years into the past and helps explain where superpowers come from. Yeah. That all, were you an Eternals fan? Do you know anything about the Eternals? I really know next to nothing about the Eternals. On the one hand, I think going to space is a necessary move for the MCU to kind of raise the stakes on some of the stories that they're telling. On the other hand. It is going to get very difficult to follow if you have, if you don't like keep time. That that was that was my thinking too i think that there's a way that part of what's so good about far from home is it's so

small you know it's not it's not this world traversing you know super villain conquering kind of movie it's a it's a fun time at the movies because it's about a bunch of kids that you like hanging with and i started to try to wrap my head around where they're going with the mcu and if secret wars is in our future and you know how will the x-men enter the picture and are they going to put deadpool in the next movie and one of the fantastic four coming in and then silver surfer and galactus yeah and then all of a sudden we're dealing with 500 characters multiple galaxies and it gets a little bit exhausting um now you can make the case that it's been exhausting, depending on your mileage may vary on that with Marvel movies. But there

was a part of me that as I saw this back, as soon as we went back into the Skrull ship, I was like, I don't know, is this where I want to be? And maybe that's just because I wasn't super fond of Captain Marvel. So maybe that sort of answers the question I'm posing to you about the fatigue is, does going bigger somehow threaten the long-term viability of these series? I don't know. I couldn't tell you. I mean, like, but again, the highest grossing movie of all time is about to be a movie that you had to literally watch 20 movies to understand. It's a great point.

So, I mean, like, there's not really, I can't say whether or not people are going to be alone for the ride. Probably. I mean, if they do it well enough, if it's quirky enough,

if it's fun enough, sure, I'll follow you to space. Okay, last question. Do you think that Tom Holland's Peter Parker is the most essential member of the MCU right now? Is he the most important person

that they have in these movies? In terms, like if, like in the sense that he is the future, yes, I would think so. But not in terms of the present. I think that they are making an effort to center him like in the MCU because I mean,

if you are being named as Tony Stark's successor, you're trying to be like the new, the new person that is going to have, you know, like is going to be getting tens of millions of dollars more per movie than the actor next to you, which is what Robert Downey Jr. did. Yeah, but you want to be Coke and Pepsi,i not new coke and or crystal pepsi you know you got to somehow maintain that original flavor i think holland is pretty well suited to it even though he's got a completely different vibe yeah yeah i mean like i think that yes he's probably at this point the most important character in the mcu quickly for me do a do a top three from three to one spider-man movies of your life top three from three to one Spider-Man movies of your life top three

from three to one Spider-Man movies of my life okay Spider-Man 2 at number three okay I still can't get over

like the the the back of the car scene outside of outside of the homecoming dance

and and the first homecoming movie the showdown between yeah Michael Keaton and Tom Holland. I'm going to say that that's number two. And Into the Spider-Verse

is easily number one. And that is the last thing that we'll say, which is that as fun as Far From Home is and as great as Homecoming is, Spider-Verse is just kind of fucking with this movie

a little bit. You know? There's just a part of me that wishes it was a second Spider-Verse movie. Exactly. And there will be a second Spider-Verse movie. I there will be a second spider verse movie.

I don't know if they'll be able to recapture what made that first one. So great. But you know, that movie is on Netflix right now. I'm I, I finished far from home and went home and just put on spider verse, you know, cause that's a,

it's a mood. I might go watch that this afternoon. Maybe we should go do that right now. Micah, thank you so much for doing this. Of course. Thanks again to Micah Peters, and thank you for listening to The Big Picture.

Please tune in tomorrow. We'll have another episode ahead of your July 4th holiday about the new horror film, Midsommar. We'll have an interview with the filmmaker Ari Aster and a conversation with my pal Chris Ryan. Please check that out. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by CNN. Obviously, if you took the time to listen this week, you love movies as much as I do. And apparently so does CNN because they are bringing us a brand new CNN original series called The Movies, starting July 7th. Every week for six weeks, the series will give new insights into the movies we love

and the stories behind them, starting with the 80s. Think Back to the Future and Breakfast Club, just to name a few. So check out The Movies on CNN July 7th, starting at 9 p.m. Eastern.