The Big Picture - Spider-Man Is Out of the MCU and Movies Are in a State of IP Crisis. Plus: Ben Berman on Untangling ‘The Amazing Johnathan Documentary’ | The Big Picture

Episode Date: August 22, 2019

A public, corporate feud between Marvel and Sony could spell the end of Spider-Man in the Marvel Cinematic Universe—are we stuck caring about this forever, and will we ever return to the days of movie stars (0:45)? Then, Ben Berman joins the show to discuss his strange and postmodern documentary on magician and comedian “The Amazing Johnathan” (74:51). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Wesley Morris and Ben Berman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by M&M's. Have you tried M&M's caramel yet? Caramel has been square for far too long, and M&M's is doing their part by giving you that familiar flavor in a package that you love, surrounding the smooth caramel and delicious milk chocolate. As always, M&M's knows how to bring spontaneous fun. Just like, oh, I don't know,

seeing Once Upon a Time in Hollywood for the fourth time in movie theaters like me. With M&M's caramel, we can all agree that caramel is more fun than ever. So go grab some M&M's Caramel today and let your taste buds go for a ride. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the movies which are maybe in trouble or maybe completely fine or maybe doing really great. I am pleased to be joined by my regular co-host Amanda Dobbins. Hi Amanda. Hi Sean. And we have a special guest here. We have our pal Wesley Morris. What's up? Hi. How are you? I'm good. Wesley, you work for the New York Times. I

do. You are a writer, a podcaster, a bon vivant, a cultural explorer. I think so. I accept. A myriad of things. One thing that you are for sure is maybe the greatest living thinker about movies. Is that too strong? I also think so. Sure, I accept.

Okay, thank you. And since this is a movie show, we're going to talk a little bit about what's going on in movies right now. There's a couple of dumb industry things that I want to use as an opportunity to explore what's going on in the world and to get not just Amanda's thoughts, but your thoughts about if things are going well for movies in general. Yesterday, there was some public negotiating going on between two movie corporations. One of them is Disney and one of them is Sony. Amanda can't even, she's like, she can't even look. Do you know where this is going? I do, unfortunately. Okay.

We talked about Spider-Man quite a few times, actually, on this show. And Spider-Man was the political football of the movie industry yesterday because Sony owns the rights to make Spider-Man movies. Marvel has been helping them do so and generating a small profit and working closely with Kevin Feige, who oversees all of Marvel Studios and is the most successful producer probably in the history of Hollywood, if we're being honest.

And it seems that's… Oh, wow. I didn't even… Wait, let's pause on that for one second. Yeah, here we go. Think about it. Wow. Okay.

Never had a miss. He's going to have so many achievement awards named after him at some point. Yes, truly. Well, that's if we still have movies by the time we get to his stage of having achievement awards with his name on it. You said it. And it seems that Kevin Feige, at least for now, will not be involved in making Spider-Man movies normal Marvel. It sounds like the Tom Holland version of Spider-Man is going to be a strictly Sony product. Now, in theory, this is scary for fans of Spider-Man. There was literally a hashtag boycott Sony trend yesterday. People wanted to boycott Sony because they could

not come to an agreement on giving Marvel more money for the thing that they make. That is a little bit confusing. Now, what will this mean practically? It means that you probably won't see Captain America in a movie with Spider-Man going forward if they don't come to an agreement. I think that those of us who are a little bit more cynical and perhaps a little bit more savvy about this understand that they may actually come to an agreement here and that this impasse is public theater in an effort to show the world just how much they care about Tom Holland being able to appear alongside, I don't know, Thor going forward.

The point here though, is not whether or not we get to see Spider-Man in an Avengers movie or whatever. The point is, this is how movies get made. There was another bit of news yesterday. I don't know if you saw this as well, Wesley, that the Matrix 4 is coming from Lana Wachowski. And- By herself?

By herself. Lana has split creatively from Lily Wachowski, her sister, and Is it amicable? We don't know the details of that. We know that

This is important to me. I know, I know, but Wesley keeps looking to me as if I'm going to tell him that he's in a bad dream and I'm just like, you're a whore. Or to just tell me to grow up.

No, I This is life. I'm with you. You little twerp. Welcome to what it's like to be on this podcast on a weekly basis. And that is the question. I mean, I do listen for that, whatever. Are American movies a bad dream right now is kind of a reasonable question to ask in

the face of this because it now feels like we got what we paid for. We rewarded everybody by going to all the superhero movies, going to all of the franchise blockbusters. Those are the things that drive the industry in a meaningful way. We have this conversation routinely on the show. And I couldn't help but look at those two pieces of information, which I think hit within 20 minutes of one another. And couldn't help but feel a little bit of an existential chaos around what we're doing this for.

And that's not to say that I don't like those movies because i actually like the idea of but that's another spider-man movie that's really that's but i it's not no it's not the point so how do you how do you both respond to to these paired pieces of information i told you so. I mean, welcome to the existential chaos. It subsides after a while and you get used to the natural order of things and you're just like, well, I will go see Tom Holland in Spider-Man and at least he's adorable. And, you know, you find the things you like, I guess. You know, it's really interesting to think about. I talked to sean and bill and chris yesterday about beverly hills cop sure um and in reading some of the writing being done

around the time of that movie's release pauline kale had released this was like 85 she released state of the art which is my personal favorite of the kl collection it's not the greatest but it's the one with the most movies that i would have seen when they were in movie theaters that one's pretty cranky as i recall it is cranky but she's still spending you know 8 000 words on on crankiness true there's a pleasure, there's still a pleasure in that. But she did some interviews to promote the book. And she had just been, she was lamenting during these interviews that the movies have basically been reduced to,

I think she used the word dumb. Or maybe I'm confusing like her characterization of where the movies were in 84 and 85 um with some guy in the los angeles times use of the word dumb to describe that moment but there was this sense that like the the sort of rise of the action movie had sort of ruined all movies and that you know something stupid like beverly hills cop or ghostbusters where you have a genre sort of laid atop another genre or another or one genre in the action movie running through another genre if you're talking about ghostbusters it's like a screw it's like a march brothers movie with like all of these action imperatives and like this is a this is a fight as old as

older than i am and well not older than i am sorry wait maybe close to we could go back a little farther and make it older than i am but the point is really that the farther away you get from 1940 whatever is the more that you're longing for a thing that you either did experience or wish you could have experienced. great compared to now because even though there were more there was more action in my comedy and more action in my drama there were still people in these movies there were still characters and like side characters and editors who could like find an interesting thing that some person in the corner of a of a of a packed frame was doing and hold on them just long enough to make that movie more interesting than it otherwise it would have would have been if if a hack had edited it um like things like that you guys talk about this not infrequently the middle is gone there's no middle in our movies anymore and so and you know what there is in place of middle

is intellectual property which is the thing that you know everybody these are all things everybody knows but it's like every day that you get a push alert for something like this is a day that you just want to you want like captain america to stomp on your phone and are you are you are you frustrated with this as a person that sees a lot of films that is invested in the future of it? Am I invested, though? Well, that's an important question. I mean, that is probably a question that we are not asking ourselves enough. And also, I think you hit on something, and I would be curious to know what you think, too.

Is it just illusory? Is it just our imagination that things used to be better and that we've been through this for 35 years, basically? Well, I do think they used to be different and maybe we liked it better. It was interesting, Wesley, as you were talking about, literally the craft of movies has changed. where you can see a person having a moment on a screen and there is some narrative continuity and there is an editor and there's a way of making a movie that speaks to us. But now there are different ways of making movies and there are effects and universe continuity.

There are just the way that you put a movie together in 2019 and what a movie is, which I know we yell about this on every podcast, but here we are again, what a movie is and how we define it as very different. Right, right. I, and I think there's truth to what you were saying of, I respond more to the things that I grew up on, but so does everyone like across time. Yeah.

Yeah. I would also just like, there isn't a, like nostalgia is a part of this, but it also is like, what's interesting to me, because the other complaint during the eighties was about special effects, like special effects ruined the movies in the sixties. And so they were all but non-existent in the seventies. And then the eighties, the art, like there was a state of the art that was high. And I miss those those i miss practical effects now we're in that place right i saw a movie last night that is a big forthcoming

blockbuster and i was like why is there so much cgi in this movie there doesn't have to be and that has now become the new concern did you see the irishman i did not though though we will be discussing that in this conversation because it's relevant to everything that we're saying here. But I mean, this is just to say like I the nostalgia is one thing, but it's not like people's brains don't work anymore. It's not like people don't have a. Oh, I think they work differently. OK, so let's play. Let's play this out.

Right. let's play this out, right? So I agree with you that they might work differently, but does everybody's great 2019 brain have to run through some studio's library of old hits? Like, does that have to happen? It shouldn't. I'll give a test case for what I think the challenge is now. The new challenge for filmmakers who have to marshal something beyond their own personal creativity. Look at Us.

Us is the only movie... I was just about to bring that up. This is the only movie this year that is in, whatever, the top 10, the top 15 that is not based on anything, that is not a sequel, that is not a franchise, that is not IP like you're describing. It's the only movie that is a standalone, original story. The only

one? That has succeeded in that space. Now, obviously it's understood that Jordan Peele's got a lot going for him. He's a brilliant creative person.

Oh my God, are you about to tell me some shit? No, no, no, no. I'm not going to say anything. Is he directing an X-Men movie? No, no, no, no, no.

Well, I mean, he has dipped his, I mean, he produced the Twilight Zone adaptation this year, so it's not like he's completely immune to this,

but what I'm saying is it required an extraordinary amount of confidence, creativity, not like he's completely immune to this. But what I'm saying is, is it required an extraordinary amount of confidence, creativity, and experience for him to get to this place. And also, he's been a very savvy brand builder. He's been a person who has figured out how to get people believing in what he makes

and then to evangelize for it. Because that's what you have to do. It's the same way that people will evangelize. The way they evangelized for Marvel yesterday against Sony, which is crazy because that's a corporation. But Jordan Peele treats himself in some ways like a beautiful corporation and everything that he makes you have to invest in. And I think that the new challenge for creative people is you can't just have a good script for

Beverly Hills Cop and you can't just cast Eddie Murphy. You have to create a cult of Beverly Hills Cop before you even get to the movie. And I think that's the only way, right now at least, to penetrate beyond if it isn't X-Men or Spider-Man or How to Train Your Dragon or Indiana Jones or whatever thing we're going to revive, that's the only way to marshal the forces to get everybody excited about what you're working on. And The Irishman is kind of a version of that. The Irishman is, Martin Scorsese has spent his career creating an army of people, jerks like me, evangelizing for his work and valorizing it. And thus, when The Irishman comes out, even if it's mediocre, even if it's the worst movie Martin Scorsese has ever made, Amanda, you and I will treat it like a true event, the

same way that Endgame was a true event. And I think that that's the bar now. It's like you got to do what Martin Scorsese and Jordan Peele do or you might be fucked. Tarantino, same thing. Little Women will be the same thing for a type of audience. That was a brand building move and I'm sure it was sincere the same way that I think Us was a sincere film. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. But I think if you are a little bit older and you are a little bit repulsed by the concept of brand building and personal image, then I think it will be hard for us to rationalize that. Now, younger audiences may not care. Younger

audiences, it may seem more natural. I also think there's a way for that, for you to receive us without being even aware that you're you're associating yourself with a brand right like that's true i mean because i do think that that i mean but i also think that part of what you're saying though is the class of people who would leave us and be like is it okay to say i didn't like that because i i did not understand what was going on with that. Like, there are people who would, like, pull me aside and be like, either can you explain that movie to me? Or is it, like, okay if I didn't like it? But I think there are 10 times or 1,000 times many more people who just went home, Googled what happened at the end of us, and then got in a fight about it online, which then sent more people to go see it which i think there is also a part of this that is meme ability for lack of a better word an internet savvy which is a part of building a brand but understanding but that's beyond be

popular and also like visually what will capture someone's mind who's used to looking at the internet all day so that's true i think that's exactly right us definitely had that but i think that like jordan peele and there is a class of of of person who understands how this works right like bradley cooper knows when he makes a star is born that it's not his movie anymore right like people are just gonna fight about it and they're gonna interpret it and it's just beyond him. He can't answer any of your questions. The thing about Jordan Peele is he's not going to answer any of your questions. Like y'all want to go on the internet and fight about what the meaning of his movie is or like whether, whether, you know, Ali and Jackson are right for each other or like who's better in one half of the movie versus the other half of the

movie or like, do you believe in their love? That is no longer the filmmaker's problem. Amanda and I will happily answer all Star Wars porn related questions. But did his unwillingness to do that cost him an Oscar? Oh. Bradley Cooper's. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that's it. Well, that's the other thing that that is a part of. Wait, hold on. Oh, sorry. Really? I'm just, I'm asking. Because a narrative did start that he did not campaign. Oh, he was too distant.

Right, right, right. He didn't campaign and he didn't want it. And then as soon as, I believe he was snubbed for the Best Director nomination, and then he started the campaign again, and he was suddenly everywhere trying to answer the questions, trying to engage. He performed in Las Vegas with Lady Gaga out of nowhere. Right. I don't know. Last year's Oscars were extremely complicated for a lot of reasons. I don't know if that would have made the difference, but that is certainly a takeaway.

But here's my thing. I mean, I think I'm more at the Bradley Cooper end of things where like, I'm just like, I mean, look, the campaign ship has sailed. Like you have to campaign to get stuff now or to like at least make people think you're serious. Always though, for the 20 plus years. But did Pavel Pavlikovsky? No, Amazon did. What Amazon did is they spent a lot of money on Cold War

and they ran a series of events, especially here in Los Angeles, in which they made people aware of the fact that Pavel Pavlikovsky is one of the great filmmakers of this time. And that is how they got a Best Director nomination for him. It's because there was an effective machine.

You know, we talked about Gone Girl a couple of weeks ago, and we talked about the movie A Private War, because we were talking about Rosamund Pike. She was so good in that movie. That's, it's an amazing performance. No one saw the fucking movie, and no one cared. The connection between box office, awards,

awareness, and brand protection is, on the one hand, I feel like I'm personally fascinated by it and I feel like I keep dragging Amanda into conversations about it every week. On the other hand, it has nothing to do with movies. It has nothing to do with whether Spider-Man Far From Home was

any good, whether it was fun for teenagers. I do think that when things like this happen and stories like this go viral, for lack of a better word, we are training audiences to be mindful of this stuff. So then we're going to get a bunch of people like me who are 13 and are going to grow up and be like,

what's most important is that Marvel Studios gets to do whatever they want, which is insane. That is an insane way to raise a generation of moviegoers. Yeah. No, well, you know what's funny is you're saying this and I was thinking, did you get, you guys saw that that, I don't know how many different CEOs

presented to the public this letter that they had basically written, basically saying, well, the shareholders have been important throughout the history of our business. I did see this. Yeah, tremendous stuff. You know who else is important?

You guys. The people who make those shareholders possible. I think there really is this interesting understanding that the proletariat is as good as a shareholder in a lot of ways. And that at this point, and I don't know what that's really going to mean for the bottom line of these businesses. I don't know what that's really going to mean for the bottom line of these businesses.

I don't know if it means that are they going to solve the homelessness crisis in Los Angeles, New York City? I don't, probably not, but they can seem to be operations that are at least morally aligned against people not having a place to live, right? I think there's a way that that understanding, I don't know where, I don't know how it would

have originated because my, you know, I know how businesses just do what's in the best interest of the business. But there is this sense that capitalism in popular culture just doesn't seem like capitalism because who's ostensibly or explicitly or even implicitly oppressed, right? Capitalism in popular culture is about the money we give you and then you give us more stuff we like.

The thing that is oppressed right now is like the middle tier rom-com, like erotic thriller. That's the thing that is oppressed right now is like the middle tier rom-com like erotic thriller that's the thing that we're we're feeling is oppressed the people that think marvel is a person like that marvel is stan lee like you know the ghost is in that machine jimmy marvel right i think that i think those people don't they don't like i don't see how my supporting this company is going to cost you Emma Stone and Channing Tatum in a romantic comedy. Can we get that one written? I don't know.

I do think that there is. I mean, look at what's happening to Disney and Mulan right now. What's happening? Oh, oh, oh. Well, basically, because the star of the upcoming live action Mulan was like, had some feelings about the Hong Kong protesters and sort of aligned herself with the police, the Hong Kong police who were, you know,

oh my God, I almost said a very Marvel thing, doing battle with them. No, they they're like they're aligned against each other and she chose the side she seemed to support the police in this matter and not the not the hong kong pro not the people of hong kong fighting for their democracy an instagram post to this effect right yeah she just yeah all she did i mean she did more than than quote the journalist who had been attacked by the protesters. But she did it in a way that had become propaganda in China. Anyway, the point is now Disney, the human being we know as the Walt Disney Corporation, is being forced by, I mean, and not even unreasonably, but there is a way in which the stakes are just too damn high with all this stuff, that

they're now going to have to figure out what the hell to do with this Mulan movie, which is, when is it supposed to come out? Next year. I mean, I assume that we won't even remember this happened in five minutes, and like, the people of Hong Kong will still be fighting for democracy, but we won't remember

this happened when Mulan comes out. But if I'm wrong, and that this is even something I'm able to talk to you about, like I know this is happening and I can talk to you about it right now, it's just too much. It all just means too much. Are you not invested in movies? Like you inferred that, that maybe you're not.

Wait, did I just say something crazy? No, no inferred that that maybe you're not did i just say something crazy no no i think you're right it that's just it's one more like piece of the news cycle that we will inhale no you will digest and then excrete we'll get rid of it like we'll just be like well that happened and then the mulan movie happens and then amanda and i will probably yell about the mulan movie on a podcast and be like was it it good? Was it bad? And then we'll move on to the next thing. But you can't say because, you know, it's a milestone. Wow. You won't be able to say whether it's good or bad because, you know, it's breaking some barriers.

I think also Sean and I have never seen the original Mulan because we're too old. So that's another thing. It will be breaking the barrier of me understanding what Mulan is. So that will be an exciting milestone for it to reach as well in my brain I'm genuinely curious though because you

for years wrote film criticism frequently many times a week you're not doing that as much now has that changed your relationship

to the movies do you feel like you have less of a because you had a command of what was going on week to week. Do you still have that command?

Are you still interested in having that command? I still want to know what's happening, right? Because I still go to the movies and I still care. And it's not that I'm not invested. It's just that my investment is different now because the culture has changed. And we all know how changed the culture is again like i don't want to make any any sort of lament that we that we make about the changes in the movie industry about about the sort of hegemony of marvel or the way in which the comic book movie has sort of moved to the center of American moviegoing culture. But I do think that the intellectual property thing,

it really is an odious development because, I mean, because I don't, I mean, obviously the comic book situation is intellectual property, but it doesn't stop there, right? Like everything now is a thing that was before. And the idea that like kids, like kids are watching Friends, right?

Like it's not like kids are, kids who didn't have the office, like 12 year old kids are watching the office because they weren't around when it was on or they weren't old enough to watch it when it was on. The idea that there's a cliff that all this stuff just falls off and the only thing to do once it's over the cliff

is to like redo it. It's just crazy to me. That is the I think the distinct approach that Disney and as they prepare to launch Disney Plus

has been taking. So let me just let me just publicly share my take on the superhero movie stuff that I shared on the watch. Right. So Chris and I last week talked about the Amazon show, The Boys.

Oh, sure. Have you seen The Boys? Which I have not watched yet. Okay. I think it's pretty good. I don't think it's for you, Amanda. Nothing ever is. That's okay.

I'm used to it. What's not for Amanda? It's a very, I would describe it as the Peckinpah stage of the superhero movie. It's very violent. It's very nihilistic. It is very aware of the sort of mythological nature of the genre and it is playing against that and it feels like the third and perhaps final stage of this being the thing that is at the center of the culture now oh you

think this is the last legs now that third stage may last 10 years i don't i can't say for sure but it feels like when a, when a genre, especially in this country, and this has been true in music as well as in film and television, when a genre reaches its sort of like aggressive end point, it's most sort of like fiercely subversive period is when it starts to like remove itself in a way from being in the center of the frame. That doesn't mean that we don't make Westerns anymore. There are a lot of Westerns. There were Westerns in the 80s, Westerns in the 90s, and the 2000s. But you could make the case that Peckinpah and that brand of movies kind of killed them

in a weird way. You don't even, that's an argument that kind of makes itself in some ways because you can just look at the numbers and you can look at what we started calling Westerns after 1976 or 7. Right. We called them, they were all revisionists. Like after Heaven's Gate, everything we got was every Western made pretty much was a revisionist Western. So that means if we continue to get superhero stuff, great.

If it's at the center of the frame for 10 years, great. It's hard to say how particularly that will play out. But the point that you're making, Wesley, is that Disney Plus is announcing that we'll be getting a new series of Home Alone movies. Because Home Alone is an important property that is recognizable to a lot of people. Home Alone's not a superhero story. It's not even a particularly like young boy,

like male driven story. It's a family comedy, but it has name recognition. And now in the same way that we're remaking aladdin with will smith we're going to start remaking home alone which is a was a big hit but like it's just not a not a new idea at all no no no no right can i just say though there are four existence sequels to home alone already so even there it's not totally new that i mean even the idea of making a sequel is not new exactly sequel but also there are literally Home Alone already. So even there, it's not totally new. Even the idea of making a sequel is not new. Exactly.

A sequel, but also there are literally four Home Alone movies that show up on ABC Family proving that they are a Christmas movie. Sorry, Bill Simmons. But... Even there,

the franchiseness of it is already baked in, which is, again, why they're doubling down and making it a mega franchise is there something that you hope that the disney pluses or hbo maxes of the world will say this is also a franchise for us now and we have what we have to do is make 25 installments of these over the next 10 years i would love it if they did the crown for every royal family

in the in history but royal family in history. But that's just sad travel at that level. Yeah, which is basically just history. Right. But let's do it. But that is actually smart and interesting. Well, that's what I like. I don't think, I mean, I wonder like.

Am I not allowed to have standards along with this i'm just saying that like i don't like okay i don't want that to happen okay but like if it's gonna happen i'd rather have it happen your way thank you then then i mean i don't know what this home alone's gonna be it could be like it could be a commentary on our on our current real estate and an income inequality crisis. And it could really have something to say about race and gender in this country. I don't know. It could also just be about bad parenting. Yeah. You want to bet it's not going to be about the former?

Should we make a wager? I don't know. They could probably find a way to sneak in the demise of Lehman Brothers in there. I don't know. Anything is possible. That's true. But the thing is, the thing that makes me sad about something like doing Home Alone again is, and the degree to which it makes

you understand who's really in charge, and it's not us. It is not the people. Who is it? It's the studios telling you. It's somebody at a meeting or like many meetings just being like, nobody is asking for this thing, but it's here and people love it. Aren't they going to love it if we just do it again? Right. So this is a chance to be perhaps radically transparent. We work at a company where we know what is successful and is not successful. And we look at it and we say, oh, that worked. We should repeat that because what we want is for people to consume the thing that we make. And that doesn't necessarily mean that every repeatable thing that we make here is something that I believe in. And if you talk to people who work at studios, even people in the upper reaches

of the studios, they're kind of bummed out about the moment. They're not happy about it either. Now they're getting fat on it. They're making money and it's exciting to be a studio executive in Hollywood. And they've been striving for that their whole careers. But those people are not exactly fired up about Home Alone 6, the rise of wage inequality in Kevin McAllister's household. And they want to make Home Alone 1. They want to make Raiders of the Lost Ark. They want to make Casablanca. Now, they may not know how or they may not be allowed to see I don't think that knowing how

is really a problem I mean I hear like I don't want people to think the way they thought in 1985 because like what percent what too much percentage of our culture is about going back now and like re litigating the sort of non-crime crimes

of pop culture's past yeah like i don't don't don't think like people thought 1985 right don't don't have indiana jones killing a bunch of arabs who don't even like speak arabic right like don't do that think about like use your brain in 2019 to give us new stuff. I mean, I think you understood Amanda, what I was saying about, about people being able to like their brain, everybody's brains still work.

Yes, of course. And I just feel like, I don't know if mine works, but, but you're doing this. We're doing this. We're not responsible for,

for, for creating entertainment for people in the, in the same way. But I just wish, now I don't know if you're, like I can think of 10 people off the top of my head who have no ostensible interest in going anywhere near a Marvel movie.

But I also feel like the thing that I knew was happening in 2013 when all of these directors were going to X film festival and their second movie was going to be, you know, some piece of old intellectual property or newish intellectual property if they were going into the Marvel situation. The Colin Trevorrow wave. Right. I mean, am I going to be mad at Chloe Zhao for also going in there now? No, because maybe she's got a plan for herself. And maybe that plan is like

getting paid, making a really making the most interesting version of the thing that she's going to make as she can, and then going and making the thing that she would have made had this opportunity not come up. And her having to knock on a bunch of doors to get somebody to give her of doors to get like somebody

to give her some money to make this thing that you know is not a 190 million dollar movie so there's that but i also wonder if like the 10 people that come to mind in terms of like wanting to go nowhere near any of this stuff like intellectual property wise or like you know doing reboots and franchise oriented things whether they are actively avoiding it whether people are avoiding them to do it which i don't think would be the case if you're think every of the people that i think oh you know the people that also come to mind when i'm saying this are people like paul thomas anderson and quentin tarantino people who who ostensibly wouldn't do that i mean maybe both those guys have a

popeye or something in them. Quentin Tarantino is thinking of making a Star Trek movie. Right. I remember that. So you never know. You never know. Even these people are potentially in line to do these things. And I'm not saying that those people are too good to do that.

But I also think that if anybody understands where the major chasms are in our culture right now it's people like that right it's a person like jordan peele who was raised on movies that aren't these are this is a class of people who were raised on movies that don't get made anymore right like people whose sensibilities come out of movies that no longer are being produced originally so mean, I don't know. The thing that's happening right now is really interesting because the culture that people are growing up, our future filmmakers, I'm curious to know when it's interview time at Sundance and your first movie is premiered and they're like, what are your influences? Who inspired you? What inspired you to do this? I wonder what the answers are going to be. And they're you to do this i don't i wonder what

the answers are going to be and they're gonna be like i loved fast five so i made a family drama for sundance like i that's plausible maybe i would probably enjoy that family drama made by someone who loves fast five someone should consider that i mean they basically been brainwashed because isn't i mean every scene pretty much ends, it's about family. Exactly, that's why. It's like, you know. Well, so you raised Chloe Zhao.

I think that's actually an interesting inflection point because Ryan Coogler is really interesting. I think we did a rewatchables on Creed. Right. And he's a filmmaker who, if it were 1978, you'd be like, man, this guy's going to be telling personal stories forever. And he has, I think at least effectively from a business perspective, put himself in the system and tried to put his fingerprints

on things inside the system. Now, what I worry about, and it's really not my job to, I don't know, judge his career, but I worry that there is a golden handcuffs aspect to the level of success that he has now experienced where there's an expectation that he make black panther 2 in favor of something different now we don't know what that different thing is so we can pretend like it's somehow intellectually superior i don't know if it is i know some things that he i mean at least i

think i know some things he's up to which i won won't mention, but they're so not Black Panther. And I actually think that he, the thing that he did with that movie was, was, I mean, some of it was just to say that I could, this is an opportunity to do a thing that like, who else is going to do this? Like, I'm going to do this. I'd be crazy not to do it. And he would have been crazy not to do it. Yes. I actually thought that making Creed was the more interesting, like, when he, when he signed up to do Creed, I was like,

why are you doing that? But he had a reason, he had a personal reason to do it, and I actually think that the Ryan Coogler, he might actually be a model

for what other directors are doing. Is that, was that your point? That's sort of where I'm going with it. I mean, I think,

and it'll be interesting to see because basically I had the same reaction to creed which was like what the fuck like why this and i think it's because we felt like rocky had really been worked over that that franchise there was nothing to say about it and he did have something to say it was different from what had come before right likewise with black panther and marvel movies he had something to say it's the sequel to the Marvel movie that is the first time that I'm like, I'm sure he's going to do a great job. He's brilliant. But is that the

next Ryan Coogler movie I want to see? Is he officially making Black Panther 2 next? Yes. I don't know about next, but he is making it. I don't begrudge him that, but I also think he's got a good social drama in him, obviously. He's got many of those in him.

He's got a lot good social drama in him obviously he's got many of those in him he's got i don't know he's got a lot of interests and i i am curious to see how that goes but the point i think that you're the thing that you're actually getting at that i think is interesting is it's kind of like at this point we're talking about a situation where like everybody is going to every, every lots of filmmakers and pretty much every actor is going to have to go, go through this process of like thinking about whether to play Gomez or Morticia. Right. Do you know what I mean? Like,

it's just going to be a question and you can't be insulted because that's where we are right now. So if you're, if you're, I mean, i mean i mean who who is the who are the biggest stars under 30 right now is emma stone 30 i think that she still is under 30 we did this recently under 25 and she is above 25 i think she's above chalamet is 20 jennifer lawrence but timothy chalamet's not a star, right? We don't, we don't, we, I mean, he's an, he's a person who acts.

We have no proof that he's a star. I think actually Little Women is a big test case. Yes. We know what Emma Stone's next movie is, right? It's the Damien. Zombieland 2 Double Tap. It's a sequel to Zombieland. Now, I like Zombieland a lot.

But if we want to use emma stone as an example of a person who theoretically could be immune to this she is not no my point the question i was just gonna ask was does it like it doesn't even matter anymore because there just aren't enough these people are just i don't know who to put it this way, but we're talking at this point after Timothy Chalamet and Lucas Hedges, I mean, and Zendaya, I think we're just talking about farm-raised future franchise actors, right? It isn't like nothing is going to be special about them

outside the context of these movies, and we won't be making movie stars anymore right i don't even know if zendaya is going to get to even test that theory although i think she's really good on the show and somebody should give her a movie that doesn't require to be somebody's daughter exclusively in the context of the movie i i feel like everything is so broken now that there isn't even a plausible alternative to that world of pre-existing characters, right? Like, the idea that you'd be going to see an Emma Stone movie or the idea that you'd be going to see a Jennifer Lawrence movie, which is still, that's still an option. But, I mean, the really interesting case to me is Brie Larson.

Like, there is a person who who what has she done since she won that oscar that kong skull island and captain marvel yeah that's is that it i believe those are the two big roles that seems right but she did and she did direct her own film which premiered on netflix called a unicorn store oh right right didn't she also do Glass Castle? Yes, and the Glass Castle. Oh, right. That didn't go very well. The Glass Castle and Unicorn Store are probably personal,

more passion-driven projects. One literary adaptation, one festivally personal story. Mm-hmm. Two franchise movies. Two franchise movies that I don't think work. Two personal films

that I don't think work. Right. Well, this is a separate question about Brie Larson. This is not like, two franchise movies that I don't think work to personal films that I don't think work. They right. None of, well, this is a separate question about Brie Larson. This is not like, I'm not holding her up as like the,

the apotheosis of a movie star, but she never, she didn't even get a movie star chance. Right. She went, I mean, Kong skull Island is not like that sort of explains itself. And I,

that was on the other day. And the people in that movie, it's shocking. Tom Hiddleston, John C. Reilly. It's a crazy cast. It's like a movie star limbo. Sam Jackson. It's like all of these people who could be doing other things are in this together. And it totally neutralizes what would have happened if Tracy Letts had written a script

and directed something for all those people to do right that would be exciting but I mean but again like yes can I give a counter example which is Kate Halliwell a ringer staffer posed this question to me I'm sorry to be crown focused but I think it's really interesting who's having a better career post crown Claire Foy or Vanessa Kirby and Vanessa Kirby is really interesting who's having a better career post-Crown. Claire Foy or Vanessa Kirby. And Vanessa Kirby is really interesting because she shows up in the Crown and then she's done Mission Impossible, Fallout, and Hobbs & Shaw. Which, Wesley, you and I saw Hobbs & Shaw together and didn't discuss it, but you're shaking your head in a way. I think we all agree, except to say that Vanessa Kirby was great in it. She is a magnetic performer. I don't know that I could even rationally say Vanessa Kirby was good in Hobbs and Shaw.

It was fine. It was cool that she was there. She does come out on sets, right? She did nothing to make me more interested. You know what? Here's a good test for me always. If I didn't know you before I got to this movie and I forgot,

I did not associate her as being a person that was in The Crown or on the crown. Do I look you up when I'm writing a review where I have to mention you're being in it? I did not. I had nothing. She didn't do anything really. I mean, physically, she had a lot to do.

But I don't know. I was much more interested in the two of them, in Statham and Dwayne Johnson whether they were going to make out but what's your your point is let's go to the point is

Claire Foy after The Crown did Unsane the Soderbergh experiment First Man which I know that everyone here has a lot of

well I actually don't know how you feel about First Man I do too I think that movie just to talk about the moment we live in we just we were like,

oh wait, we didn't have that conversation on the microphone. I will just say that we were in a moment when that movie came out where like nobody wanted to hear from anybody involved with them. Nobody wanted to watch a movie set in 1967, 1966 to 69 about a white man doing something that we already know a white man did directed by a white man. It didn't even matter

whether the movie was good and that movie is fucking great. Agreed. You know I'm on the record. I know. You went through, you evolved.

I did. And I think I might have brought the energy into the movie that Wesley is describing. Maybe not the particularly racial component of it but I was kind of like, I know the story, I've seen these movies,

I love Damien Chazelle, I don't know if this is what I wanted him to do. I watched it one time, didn't work on me. I watched it a second time and I was like, whoa, masterpiece. It is an incredible movie. I think it's a great movie. I think Claire Foy should have been nominated for an Oscar for it because I think she's fantastic. I recently watched the last

scene of them when Ryan Gosling is in the quarantine and they're just staring at each other like, are you fucking kidding me? She's incredible. But I don't think it was not received that way.

No, because nobody watched it. Right. Very few people have seen it. And then she was in Girl in the Spider's Web, which is a disaster. But anyway. You're saying Vanessa Kirby wins.

She's having a more interesting moment. Let's talk about it because I think she's probably in a better position in terms of she's been in movies that make money. You have a clear idea to talk about branding of who she is and what she's doing and what else she's going to do. Claire Foy is like a British character actress who has been in, and some like interesting things with directors that we all like. Does that matter? It's a really, really good question. Ask Rooney Mara if that matters,

right? I mean, I just feel like there are so many people who like you could field an amazing movie star baseball team or potential movie star baseball team with people who should be working more, doing interesting stuff who don't work enough and it's not because they don't want to there is almost literally nothing for them to do if they have an idea of themselves as not looking good or not wanting to be in morticia

adams clothes i keep harping on like i mean but you know what i mean it's like I don't know where a quote serious unquote actor, a young serious actor gets to become a better actor. Or like where a young kind of okay actor goes to become like a major movie star. Like what would Brad Pitt be doing right now? What would like Thelma and Louise era Brad Pitt? What would like Six Degrees of Separation Will Smith be doing right now right we don't know they'd be doing Suicide Squad 2 I mean that's how they'd be conscripted into that

but what I'm saying is we wouldn't have we wouldn't have the thing the moment where Brad Pitt takes off his shirt in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood there'd be nothing to create a moment where an entire movie theater can't breathe over a thing that you actually have seen 30 previous times he's

taken off his shirt. There's some new contours that I'd love to discuss with you later, but anyway. What I'm saying is that is movie stardom speaking on the roof of that house in front of that TV antenna. I agree with you. Movie stardom speaking on the roof of that house in front of that TV antenna. I agree with you. Like, movie stardom is dead. And it's depressing. This is a really complex thing, though. Because on the one hand, I heard you say this yesterday.

We're desperate to find the next Julia Roberts. Not happening. We've been desperate since Pretty Woman. Like, she wasn't even done. So part of that is. She hadn't even started. They were looking for another one. Part of that is science and alchemical.

There is no such thing as another Julia Roberts. There is no such thing as another Brad Pitt. Those are individual stars that have something that is ineffable that we talk about all the time. The three of us in particular are fascinated by the idea. But there is also a version of fame that is very high pitched right now. And Chris Evans is never going to be Brad Pitt. But Chris Evans is really famous and

really beloved by a bunch of people that I don't even understand necessarily but the the affection and even obsession with him in the aftermath of basically being Steve Rogers for 12 years is a new version of the thing that we're talking about that we just don't relate to well it's not new i just as someone who was once a 12 year old girl it's not new it is that teen beat it is the sure knowing everything about someone having a possessive like the internet boyfriend is the latest version of this like very young obsessive crush that many people go through with pop culture, you know, papering the walls with someone. We've all done it.

It's true, but I don't think that when New Kids on the Block were blowing up, there were quite so many 26-year-old boys who were like, what I have to do is buy that album the day it comes out. But that is the case for the MCU. I think the difference is,

it's very interesting to sort of make this observation that you guys are kind of getting at, but there is a kind of gendered, I think the gendering of the enthusiasm sort of matters in some, I don't know exactly how, but I don't, this isn't even to say that they don't care about comic books or movie or comic book movies. Cause that is, I mean, I've, I go to see these things on like while they're in the movie theaters,

that's not true, but there is something about like, like passion that, that there's a, there's no passion for any of these people in the movies themselves, right? If Chris Evans goes and makes, you know,

our romantic comedy tomorrow, those people who love him and know like what he ate for breakfast this morning and ate that for breakfast because he had it too, they're not going to see him in this movie, this romantic comedy, or like they're not going to see him like play a cop. They don't care about Chris Evans if he's not playing Steve Rogers. Yeah. We saw this with Passengers, right? Right. Passengers' original story starring Chris Pratt and Jennifer Lawrence.

Oh, but... That had some other issues. I mean, I don't even know where to start. Finish your thought. I'm not saying it was good. I'm not going to defend it. It was bad. It didn't have money, though.

It didn't, though. Not relative to what it should have given the expectations. But it's just two people in a spaceship. If it were 1995, though, that's the movie event of the year. And without the rubber stamp of IP, how do you feel about Chris Pratt? He's like a karaoke movie star. It's like everything.

He's not. This is how I feel about the whole Guardians thing in general. He's made up of. I mean, Jennifer Lawrence is real. She's a real movie star and she okay you can speak after i speak i have nothing to say oh my well i will just say that she is an interesting person who takes chances and when she does show up in certain things she does have the ability to change properties of scenes she's in. Yes. That is pretty much all a movie star really is, right?

You aren't even the best actor, but you are the best thing that I can't put my finger on that's good. Literally or emotionally or intellectually. All of it. All of it. Exactly. That's great. All of it.

But I don't believe Chris Pratt doesn't have that. Chris Pratt is like doing other people's having done it, right? He's doing Harrison Ford. He's doing, who's the other person? Who? Oh, no. He just did. He's just doing different versions of Harrison Ford.

He's doing Indiana Jones in the one thing and Han Solo in the other thing. Anyway, the point is, I just don't, we don't, it doesn't matter in some ways because we don't have movie stars anymore, really. We're not, we really aren't making any. Now, I'm, and I don't even think that like if you're Lucas Hedges or, or Timothy Chalamet or even Zendaya, like you're not even, you're not going to sit here at a table with me and be like, what I really want. I really want to be the next Will Smith. I really want to be the next, you know, Julia Roberts.

That's what I want. I think that what we don't have anymore is the Entertainment Weekly cover star. We don't have the Jim Carrey, you know, the Renee Zellweger, the oh my God, that person. But what we do have, sincerely, is we have Awkwafina now, and Lakeith Stanfield, and Timothee Chalamet, and Saoirse Ronan. And those are all, we have Daniel Kaluuya. We have a bunch of people who were not known to us four years ago, who are doing interesting stuff, who are in mostly good work that is being seen

somewhat but it's being seen in miniature it's not being seen at the level of the firm is opening this friday if you don't go see the firm you're fucking moron because tom cruise is in and he's on the cover of six magazines we don't have that we probably will never have that if it's not ip but no maybe florence pew is someone who every time she does something, people like us are like, this person is important. She's always going to give a good performance. Let's invest. It's going to make a person like me think a lot about little women, which is not something I had ever thought about before. I watched Fighting With My Family in full on a plane because of Florence Pugh.

Have you seen that? I just needed everyone to know that. Is that the rock movie? Yeah. It's a wrestling movie. Yeah, I did not see that. You actually would have probably some pretty fascinating insights into that movie. I mean, I also watched it because I was like, this isn't totally a movie, but I want to see what they're doing with this.

I was interested in seeing it and then I didn't. And I got confused because I couldn't tell. Did WWE produce it or something? They did. There was something about it that was like... You can certainly tell that. Why isn't Ted DiBiase Jr. in this movie? I just didn't know whether like how straight to VOD... It was a theatrical release for sure.

It certainly was. But there was something... There was like a Ted DiBiase Jr. like pre-John Cena superstar John Cena-ness about it. Like something in my contract says I have to make a WWE movie and here it is. So do you know who the most famous person in that movie who is not The Rock is? I'm sure you were surprised to see this person in the movie. No.

Vince Vaughn. Oh, interesting. Oh, Vince Vaughn and Dwayne Johnson were in the same movie? They were. Do they have any scenes together? Yes. Yes, they do. In fact, they're meant to be longtime friends.

Yes. Oh, boy. Which is strange. But that also is, like, Vince Vaughn is kind of a symptom of the way that this kind of a culture has changed, too. It's that once upon a time, there was a guy who was a big kind of movie star, never really was going to be able to grow into, I am Star-Lord's dad in Guardians of the Galaxy, and now finds himself playing third fiddle in a WWE production of a story about a woman, Paige, who doesn't even wrestle anymore. Like that's one of the weirdest movies that's ever happened that came out this year. And I kind of liked it. And I talked to Steven Merchant about it and he's great, but it's just a really strange thing. And that's another example of a kind of movie where we're like, what we have here

is some intellectual property, which is WWE superstar. How can we make that a story and then sell it to all the people that watch raw every week? I would be love to know like, like the, you know, I mean, we have this, you know, the, the, you know, blacklisted screenplays or whatever, the sort of all the great unproduced screenplays. Like if I'm a producer and I mean, I'm sure that the a 24s and Annapurnas of the world, although y'all can tell me what's the latest on the Annapurna situation.

Annapurna was saved by Larry Ellison. Yeah, they're doing okay now. Okay. Thank God. That's the latest. Although, isn't this a little bit of like, I don't know, what Bronte novel is this? Where like the father comes in anyway. I don't think the father ever comes in to save anything in Bronte novels.

That's fair. I don't think the father ever comes in to save anything in Bronte novels. That's fair. I think this is the Bible. It's true. It's not a Bronte novel at all. On the seventh day, Larry Ellison rested. But I wonder if you're, even if you're at Warner Brothers, and then, you know, there are smart people at Universal who, like, I just wonder what the struggle is to get

something completely unoriginal that jordan peele didn't write made into a movie because even the things that seem like i think a lot about why um hell what is that movie what is i know i'm gonna remember what it's called it's not knock around guys although that's a thing what's the russell crowe ryan gosling movie from the other guys the other no the nice guys the other guys is a movie that wouldn't you wish that came out this weekend that would have been great oh my god the those were the those were the will carroll mark walberg days yeah i mean we're like they just were willing to do anything to make us laugh yeah that. That, oh, I really miss that. Like, if The Kitchen had just been, like, those three women just not giving a fuck,

but there's a screenplay to support them not giving a fuck. I don't think the studios feel like they can risk that. The thing that's gone is not the $6 million version of that movie. It's the $45 million version

of that movie. That's the movie that people are not going to spend on. I mean, that was, even speaking of Ferrell, like, Adam McK going to spend on. I mean, that was, even speaking of Farrell, like Adam McKay's Vice and Anna Perna, you know, divisive movie. I liked it.

It cost a lot of money to make. That's not something that any studio is going to make now because they're like, there's no good business. But wasn't that a hit? It did fine. Okay. It was, okay. I mean, I don't, I could take that movie or leave it, but i do think i do think that because there's no middle anymore a movie like that starts to look really good it does

look like it looks even better it just no i mean forget the money that it makes it just oh yeah this is a movie it's got all these great it's got good performances and there is some good filmmaking and there are ideas and it is taking a risk it just makes it look that much better because it has no real qualitative competition. I really honestly think if it's a movie that you think about even once after you've seen it, then it's like now it's good because there are so many movies that and not just movies. There's so much stuff thrown at us and it just goes in one and out the other. So you and I have not discussed this, but Amanda and I talked about Where'd You Go Bernadette earlier this week on the show.

I have not seen it. Now Where'd You Go Bernadette qualitatively has a lot of issues. There are some things that don't make sense. There are some tonal problems. It's a little bit uneven

but going into it we knew that it was a quote unquote problem movie and so I think when we both saw it we were like actually like

this isn't bad and it kind of has what you're saying which is like I did actually think about it. It did it didn't feel like a perfect film to me it didn't even feel like a great film to me but i was kind of interested in the idea of thinking about the movie right and then i got back to my desk after the podcast went live and i had five emails from people that work in hollywood who were like you guys are way too nice to this movie it sucks

and i was like whoa why is everyone mad about this well that's also a little bit we're that way about pieces of writing that don't work or certain you know it's always when you're close you can see all of the flaws and you understand like what they didn't get to the finish line and you and i were just like huh it met my expectations or maybe even was a little above them so oh it's interesting because you know i have not seen it but part of the thing i feel like it there's no way it could have been good given the combination of things involved in making it now i still i didn't deter me from seeing it but i would because you know i you know because i'm i've been in this bad mood now for like 15 years about this vanishing this movie like the fact that i'll never get

another tequila sunrise as long as i live right i'll never that movie will never get made ever again because first of all who would you cast in it now right like who who is even sexy enough to put in a movie that doesn't make any sense and talk about like the conflation of like genres for action movie purposes. But why can't that movie be Steven Yeun, Donald Glover, and Tessa Thompson? Why is that not a movie? Because nobody's going to make it. I'm not saying it can't happen. It could happen.

I mean, Queen and Slim is coming out later this year. Whether that's good, I have no fucking idea. But that is a movie that Universal is paying money to make. So it might get made. It's more like, will anyone see it? But we don't know unless it gets, I mean, we don't know unless somebody makes it, right? I think if you would put Us on paper and you covered all the names and you just did the plot of Us, you'd be like, this movie's never happening.

This doesn't make any sense. It's crazy. But we're talking about a $9 million movie, right? Us? Yeah. Probably a little bit more than that. Well, whatever. From a studio that has a proven track record with knowing what to do with anything it releases to make the money back and to also be interesting.

So I would trust that Blumhouse would have a plan for your logline, right? But my point about where'd you go, Bernadette, is more like I actually had a moment with myself because I've been in this state for all these years, is that I actually said to myself when I saw the bus poster for this movie, I was like, I don't want to see this, but I'm glad it exists because it's not any of the following five things. And it looks like a mess, but also it's August. And those rules apparently also still kind of apply.

And so there was something traditional about all of the things that seem wrong with this movie. And I had all the signifiers to tell me they were there. That shitty movie poster released in August with a bunch of people who, in my wildest casting dreams, I would never want to see in the same movie. Made by a person who I don't know why. Why is he making this? Why is Linkletter making it? That was my question going in. And the answer was quite surprising and was one of the reasons.

Because what he relates to in this book, I don't want to spoil it for you, question going in and the answer was quite surprising and was one of the reasons is what he relates to in this book i don't want to spoil it for you but it was not what i related to in the book nor what i felt the book was about i'm going to see it but my point is just that that is the movie that to me is still the movies telling me a story without me even having to see the movie that's true i know based on what they're what all of that is with this movie i can kind of do the math on whether that's something i want to experience if i'm a paying movie going person can you give me one thing you're actually excited about right now that's coming oh i saw this movie called waves yeah yeah by uh trey edward schultz and it is it is good it is good and you know it's funny because it it it i need i would like to see it again but it is it is sort of it is a it is in

the in the style of a malik movie where there isn't to explain to give you the plot of the movie which is like people in relation, like you should just look up if you haven't already read what the actual, I think it might be the Wikipedia explanation of the plot is. It's so funny based on the movie you actually get. There's no way to describe what the movie is

by telling you what the plot is because it's all filmmaking. It's all somebody's vision for how a movie should look and feel and what a movie should do to you i think that's kind of true for the first two movies he made too for creature and it comes at night the description you'd be like oh the family reunion okay well whatever this is fine but then you see it and it's more sensory than that this guy is a major filmmaker and i like there's some stuff in this movie where you're just like all right i'm gonna

take the rest of the year off because um but you know i mean it isn't even so much that it is the i don't know i'm not i i just really really like this movie and there's just some choices that get made that are that are interesting it's got like, like he's got really great ideas about structure and character and like there are risks that he takes around matters of race and, you know, family. And I'm not even sure that I like all the choices,

but I mean, he's making them and it isn't like prescriptive. It's not like Green Book, right? Where like you're being told a story about a situation that is also supposed to make you change your mind, isn't like prescriptive it's not like green book right where like you're being told a story about a situation that is also supposed to make you change your mind open your heart or explain to you that the thing that you think is true is not actually true because look at these two right this is movie is not doing that it understands everything's a mess and does nothing to like

it's not giving you a mop and a broom um i an amazing teaser that telling us one material thing about the movie it's just about like two young people in love and like they're in high school and some some people make some choices okay and there's some masculinity things and some some some some like what happens when you're around a bunch of men who it doesn doesn't really do... I'm not going to explain it because you should just see it and let the movie happen to you because that's what happened to me. Is Thanos in it?

No? I had to actually think about that for a second. That was a great reaction. You really blanked me. Amit, are you excited about anything? Yeah, I am actually. Knives Out. Speaking of franchise filmmakers

deciding to do something... Well, not franchise, but someone who's been in the system but out of the system. Speaking of movies they don't make anymore, out speaking of franchise filmmakers deciding to do something well not i'm excited for this right in the system but out of the system speaking of movies i don't make anymore genre movies this is your movie stars yeah it is my genre so many though well i don't mind it's like i'd rather spend a little time with all of them see but this is the crisis to me yeah like you have this overload it's like we're anyway explain why you're excited i'm sorry i i because i'm excited to see it too i collect agatha christie mysteries i don't know

if you know that about me so that's kind of where i am how could i not have known that i mean it's not like i don't introduce myself with that that's what i do in my own time right but so you should put that in your twitter bio okay i'm good thanks I've already been shamed by everyone publicly about it many times but I like a murder mystery but

I also like self-aware it doesn't seem to be quite meta necessarily a lot of people after we talked about Knives Out wanted us to talk more

about Clue and I know Clue's very important to Sean and his wife I'm not a huge Clue person the movie or the game? the movie don't care for the game.

Oh, yeah. Okay. I've never seen the whole movie. The movie. I know who's in it. I can quote things from it, but I've never seen the whole thing. And it's got Madeline Kahn,

who's one of my favorite people ever, ever invented. Me too. It's a murderer's row, literally and figuratively. Maybe we'll talk more about Clue when Knives Out comes out. There's just a balance between send up and homage that I tend to like homages more.

Though we'll see. I haven't seen Knives Out. I'm just very excited about it. I like Rian Johnson. I love him. Can you just go through the list of like 4,000 excellent people who were in this movie? Daniel Craig, I believe, plays the Poirot figure. That's a detective. I don't know. There's a lot of accents in this trailer that make me nervous though i gotta be honest he's doing something he loves to go southern daniel he really does

and i do not love logan lucky's that aspect of logan lucky basically i grew up near where logan lucky happened or my family did. And there are no people who look or speak like Daniel Craig. That's the funny thing. Anyway. Okay, Daniel Craig, Chris Evans in a sweater. Yes, Merry Christmas to me. Jamie Lee Curtis, Toni Collette, Don Johnson, Michael Shannon, Lakeith Stanfield, Christopher Plummer.

This is like a Tarantino cast in a Rian Johnson movie. I support it. I'm in. I'm excited. And it's got a good trailer. It does. Yes. What about you?

What am I excited about? One thing I know you're not excited about, which is the new Safdie Brothers movie. Because we know your feelings about the Safdies. But I'm very excited about Uncut Gems. Here's what I'll say. I will always give those... There's always a place in my heart to not let them in.

I've already let them in. They already rent space in my heart. But I will say... No, no, no. But this movie does sound like something that just seems very right for them. I won't go into the previous movie and what all what all i didn't believe about it but this seems to me like like i i believe

there's something about this movie that's going to convince me that this is what they ought to be doing and it wasn't so much that that the other movie which now can't even what good time good time right it wasn't that I didn't believe it's a thing they should not have been doing, but the means by which they did it, I just, just really pushed me over the edge. More so than that movie, I'll just say I did see The Lighthouse.

Oh, no, I've not seen it. Okay. Now, Amanda is making a face because I think she knows I'll have to um no i have to deal with me talking about someone else in my life aside sean has also seen the lighthouse and interests are converging once again please continue in addition to the person that you're thinking of jesus christ has also clearly seen the lighthouse and blessed it with his holy divinity because it is a spiritual experience very deeply damaged and fascinating and convulsive movie.

And I, on the show last week. What is it? It's a two-hander starring Willem Dafoe and Robert Pattinson, made by Robert Eggers, the guy who made The Witch. Oh, this is the thing that was in Can, right? It was in Can. It didn't compete at Can. Right, I know, but I read about it from when it was at Cannes.

It's literally a hysterical movie in that it is funny and then there are hysterics happening in the movie. And it really worked on me. Oh, okay. Can I just ask a question before we go? Yes. Because there is another consequence to what is happening right now with like it isn't just that like middle tier mid-budget middle brow movies no longer get made like like tequila sunrise

isn't ever going to happen again, but there also is just a class of of of of Non-american great director who just has no chance At the north american box office because of the way things are director who just has no chance at the North American box office because of the way things are now. Like who are you thinking of? Jennifer Kent, I'm thinking about. Like I think Nightingale

is one of the strongest movies I've seen this year. And where's, I mean, virtually nobody will have directed, done a better directing job with a movie this year than that woman.

But we're never going to talk about that and carlos regattas like one of the earth's great filmmakers puts out a movie not not one of his best but what nobody says anything about that i saw that movie in mexico city a year ago well lucky lucky you imagine that uh he's a little different to me because he well his films are more difficult he's not a commercial filmmaker but i'm not talking Well, lucky you. Ho Xiao Shen's of the world, we still have those people working at that level, but they don't get nearly the attention from any of the media, like,

including the place I work, which tries, but, you know. I mean, you guys write about it. We talked about Ash's Purest White here.

We talked about Transit here this year. There are foreign films that I think have penetrated the sort of, like, film Twitter consciousness, for lack of a better phrase,

but no, not, no movie-going consciousness at all. I mean, those movies don't make any impact. Do you think Parasite will have any chance at that? You're looking at me. No, I'm just trying to figure out what is Parasite. Bong Joon-ho's movie.

Oh, yeah. I mean, he's somebody, like it's weird because when you look once, like the week before the movie leaves the theater and like you look at the box office numbers, they're always higher than you think they would be. The plan for that movie is a legitimate Best Picture push. Okay. With the expectation that Roma set the stage for maybe the Academy is open-minded about a master filmmaker from a different country competing in Best Picture.

Yeah, but the difference, though, is they weren't really ready for it. I feel like a lot of Academy members feel like Roma was jammed down their throats. Totally. And because anytime you, I don't know what you're, I mean, I've heard you guys talk about this,

but like people would just like not watch the movie or they'd watch and be like, it wasn't that good. Yeah. I love Green Book. Give me Green Book any day. God, I understand.

Parasite will have a quieter version of the Roma thing where you will have now, since it premiered at Cannes, seven months of people telling you how amazing it is before you get a chance

to see it. And will that be a good thing or a bad thing? Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's bad. Well, it did work for Roma, right? It did get it quite, it had quite a journey.

Yep. It won another Oscar. So, I mean, I don't know. Bong Joon-ho is another one of these people. He's one of Earth's great directors. And he's in a different class because his greatness was established, I think, at a time when things were just different enough for his name. And I think that the host really was for anybody who remembers it or like who saw it. It's unforgettable.

The big difference for him is that he has frequently worked in genre, which is easier for people to approach. Right. But even something like Nightingale, which is, you know, the Nightingale, which is, I mean, it is a Western for all practical purposes. It's a revisionist western but this is i don't know this woman hats off to her because she does not give a fuck about how you're going to feel about what she wants to do um so have you seen it no i haven't have you seen it i haven't oh my god this is what i'm saying the impact not this is not a judgment against you guys but like the imperative like i feel like this is an imperative movie for people who care

about movies to see. Only because it is somebody who's making, this is their second movie and she is operating at a very high level. For those who don't know,

her first film was The Babadook. Yes, this is the maker of The Babadook. Oh, I think that's why I was just like, this isn't for me because I just saw

the words Babadook and I was like, close tab, close tab. Which is not a judgment on The Babadook, it was like, close tab, close tab. Which is not a judgment on the Babadook, it's just on me and my fears. But this is a different movie about fears, right? These are not fears that live in you. These are fears that are out in the world, that are in people, but they manifest themselves in these very sort of important historical infrastructural oppressive ways. And it's just, it's got a, it's relentlessly

violent. The violence has a purpose. I mean, the violence has no purpose, but like in the context of, of like the story she's trying to tell, it is very purposeful. I just feel like this is a year where in every year this happens, where there's like a couple filmmakers or a couple movies by filmmakers. And sometimes those people are like Ang Lee. Right? Like we're just like Ang Lee puts out a movie and people are like That was Billy Lynn's long halftime walk and that might be Gemini Man. We don't know.

Yeah, I mean, well it won't be Gemini Man in the same way though. It won't be Gemini Man. We're going to be covering Gemini Man. I'm not saying that we won't be. We love Will Smith here. But the previous movie, I mean, there is just, we are now at a place where like the Earth's greatest directors are not getting their due. Lucretia Martel is another person.

Like she makes maybe her best movie and it gets some attention, but it doesn't. Talking about Zama? Right. It doesn't do what, I I mean there's only one spot for you get one Roma a year and everything else is like I don't even know what they are in comparison but they don't get they don't get what they deserve and I feel like there are too many great I don't even the thing is like whatever's happening is so weird I don't even know how the

Lucretia Martels get funding now you have to be be bigger than that. There's an El Motivar film coming out. That is a movie that will be in the conversation. You have to be at that level to get that conversation. No, no, no, no, no. But like just, but we're, I'm lamenting the, and I did mention Ang Lee. So I'm, so to your point, right. But I'm saying, okay, it'll be interesting to see what this very good El Motivar movie winds up having happen to it.

Because I also think that people are just kind of like, oh, another one? Like he's just supposed to stop making them? I think that those guys, and we will have to wrap up very soon, those guys fall in the same category as the Brad Pitt and Julia Roberts conversation. It's like those people got through just in time.

You know, Amodovar got to make enough movies that he got to become understood as a master and have an American audience despite not making it American language films, English language. And he had hits and he, and he had hits. And now if you're Jennifer Kent and you're trying to make that, that move,

it's, it's just much harder to make. It's much harder to be discovered. It's not hard to make a move when i'm doing a podcast with you guys this was a very spirited conversation i really appreciate the depth of thought and your willingness to journey into the spider verse once more do you remember that that's where we started this three hours ago yeah i miss i miss the spider verse was good though that was that certainly was good i learned a a lot from the Spider-Verse.

It's not about whether the Spider-Verse is good or bad. It's just about how there's no more tequila sunrise. It's about the spiders we met along the way. Amanda Dobbins, Wesley Morris, thank you guys so much for this conversation. Please stay tuned. I will now have a conversation with the documentarian Ben Berman who made a movie called The Amazing Jonathan Documentary,

a movie that premiered at Sundance, that I must say, one, I would encourage you to watch this film before listening to this interview. Two, I would encourage you to watch this film because it's very strange and very interesting. Please stay tuned. I'm delighted to be joined by Ben Berman,

the director of The amazing Jonathan documentary. Ben, thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. Ben, I have never had this problem before, but I'm having a bit of a problem with this interview. You ready? Well, I probably know what you're going to say. What am I going to say? I hope.

Maybe there's some other twist you're going to give me. Is that, and we should have talked before, but yeah, no, it's a tough movie to discuss without, you know, spoiling certain things. So, do you guys edit? We do edit. And we will post this after the film has premiered on Hulu. Still, what I've been requesting from the press is, well, I can't say it now, what to withhold and what not to. Well, we're not going to spoil anything right this minute, but even more so than the kind of complex nature of the spoiler aspect, which maybe we'll hold spoiler to second half of our chat. It's just in general, I don't know how to interview you about this because I don't know how to penetrate the layers of the story that you told.

Sounds like it must be a good movie. It is a good movie. It's why you're here. I'm excited to talk about it. Can we start from the beginning of how the movie first began? Because your career, as I understand it, has largely been in comedy, a lot of absurdist comedy. Yes. You've directed a lot of television.

Yes. No films? Short films of my own. Short films, yes. No feature-length films and no documentaries? Well, I made one short documentary when I was in college. It was okay. it was it was okay what was it about?

it was about this musician not magician but a musician a local musician in Philadelphia who goes or went by the name

Adam and his package it was this one man band really cool smart nerdy punk rocker but like he used music sequencers

and he was kind of a philadelphia staple and he um kind of funny enough he was ultimately diagnosed with this is not funny uh he's still alive he's fine i think but he had um what's it called well jonathan has the same thing not cardiomyopathy uh diabetes okay and um he was also a school teacher and he was getting a little bit older i think and he was like I can't be a musician my whole life. Like, I'm going to settle down. So he basically retired and I filmed a documentary about him retiring. So maybe there are some similar themes there.

Yeah, there's an arc that you might be responding to. Endings. So how did you come to this movie then, given your background, given your interests? Why is this a thing you did? Yeah, that's a real good question. It's probably, there's multiple questions, multiple answers to that. A, I've always, from a young, young age, always, I can't say always, from a young age, I've been very interested in documentary filmmaking.

I went to Temple University in Philadelphia and they had a significant documentary, you know, push there. Um, and there was this older, uh, professor, David Perry, who was kind of this like burnt out artistic, you know, goofy dude, uh, who was this doc teacher. And I was like, I like, he's, I like him. Like I want to be him. What movies did he show you? Um, that's it. Well, he, he he showed he introduced me to this uh filmmaker doc filmmaker uh ed pinkus are you familiar yes are you yes my man um this is

what i do is it dogs no just talk to people about their movies so i watch you know you know of you know of ed pinkus i figured that he wasn't very well known but he did these very this is actually this can ultimately relate you're bringing already you're bringing out a lot of a lot of connections i'm doing my best here well you're yeah whatever you're doing is good um ed pinkis there was a movie called diaries that i really responded to and that was just a it wasn't a doc on anyone else other than ed pinkis and his family and And Ed Pincus at this time, uh, in the seventies was like teaching at MIT and he was, you know, basically just documenting his

family life. He had a wife and a young son and him and his wife were starting to maybe experiment with like an open marriage. And it was just this very beautiful, it was their home video diaries. Um, and it was just very honest and very raw and very like verite. And I was like, I like docs. And D.A. Pennybaker was a big influence. And the Maisels, the, you know, 60s, 70s verite direct cinema docs. And I interned for D.A. Pennybaker when I was like 19. No kidding.

For like a month and a half or so. Crazy. I mean, he just passed. I know. I know. Yeah, it's very sad. But me and him got beer once when i when i was i think i was 20 or 19 i was underage so i think he's gone now lawbreaker but it's okay statute of limitations um uh but yeah it was very meaningful to me so i've long answer i'm sorry but he i was always interested in um docs and i guess also another answer is why did I make the start kind of

filming Jonathan at that time in my life? And I think it was like at a time where I was just getting off a job and I didn't really know what the next job was going to be. And I ultimately, you know, feel best and feel worthy when I'm making a project. I feel like a schlub when I'm just sitting around. It's, it's, so I like doing things. So I did. Was your plan coming out of Temple to make docs? Is that what you thought you were going to do? Not, well, not exactly. It was, I've just, uh, being around cameras, making things. I, I, I think back then and, and still to this day, I don't necessarily care what medium it is, uh, fiction versus nonfiction, um, TV versus film, I just aim to tell very engaging stories in my voice that, and ultimately so far, these stories somehow blend really honest, sincere

darkness with a lot of comedic levity and awkward irreverency. There's shows that you've been involved in, are the kinds of shows that maybe could not have existed on TV 25 years ago. But then maybe 15 years ago, they started to come along. And you've worked with Tim and Eric. You did a lot of episodes of On Cinema, which is… With the On Cinema stuff, I'm basically… I'm on IMDb doing two seasons of that. But really, that's literally two production days.

That was just like you shoot 10 episodes, which what were they five minute episodes or something like that like on green screen and you just shoot a whole season in a day so uh it's great stuff though we're big fans here i'm happy to be any bit affiliated with that uh but uh i can't really take take much uh but but how do you get involved in shows like that How do you become a person that is a go-to director for this kind of comedy that is a bit difficult to describe, I would say? For like, you know, the Tim and Eric stuff? Or Eagle Heart or all of that stuff that is kind of like a postmodern approach. Everyone knows everyone. Like Jason Williner, who did Eagle Heart, you know, was a fan of Tim and Eric, I think.

And all those people are in the same world, right? So, yeah, that was a good, interesting time in my life. You know, I ventured out outside of, you know, Adult Swim stuff and have done some Netflix and FX stuff. But yeah, I can't say, you know, it's one thing leads to another, right? I basically got hooked up with Tim and Eric and moved out here, started working with them, you know, was a key PA. And it was at a time when, you know, the A, we started doing, or I joined up on the Tom Goes to the Mayor cartoon show. And then that, Tim and Eric moved on to the Tim and Eric Awesome Show. Great job. And at that time I started editing and actually I was doing a good amount of, uh, behind the

scenes, like doc, uh, filming for Tim and Eric, uh, like for DVD extras and stuff. So that's kind of like where I maybe really started to kind of cut my teeth on, on, on docs. And was the hope to always be getting to the place that you're at now, where you are a documentarian, a feature length documentarian, Was that what you wanted to be doing? Again, it wasn't like a, that's one of the things, you know, give me, let me make feature docs. I'm interested in making feature, you know, narratives. I'm interested in comedy TV. I'm interested in not stage directing yet, but someday. Again, just really interesting stories. I think I've traditionally worked in comedy, you know, alt comedy, weird stuff, great experience, happy to do it.

You know, but I think in reality, you kind of think sometimes it's clearly when I was a, a, you know, 10 year old kid and I was like, I want to make film. I want to make, you know, I want to make stuff. I want to make movies. Um, I don't know. I just, I just one step in front of the other, and this is where it's led me. So again, I don't care what the medium is. When did you first become aware of the amazing Jonathan? Um, I was probably about 12 or 13 years old. Uh, yeah i was aware of his him uh he comedy central specials some late night shows if i was maybe you know staying up that late but yeah as a 13 year old boy he was just kind of i've been saying like he's the perfect thing for a 13 year old boy uh at that time he's he was gory and obnoxious in a funny way. And he like did, he was loud and he really kind

of captured, you know, your imagination. So yeah, I was, I was a fan. I was aware of him. And, and that's kind of as far as it went. I then, you know, I think on not knowing it, he, you know, went to Vegas and, and had many, many successful years in Vegas and, and, you know, people like me didn't really hear much from him because cause you know, we're not going to Vegas often, uh, especially living in like Philadelphia. So, um, yeah, didn't hear about him until 2016 is probably the next time his name came up to me. And, and I was working on a, a, uh, a pilot, uh, with, um, a younger magician comedian, Justin Willman. And, uh, I was in the writer's room one day and that's when him and his other, you know, magician type friends happened to mention, oh yeah,

they mentioned Jonathan and he's, he's ill and he's not doing well. And he's actually doing some pretty serious drugs. And that was enough for me to be like, huh, like that, that sounds interesting. That sounds like that could potentially make for a pretty interesting, dark, yet funny exploration about a magician confronted with his mortality and him dealing with it with, again, sincerity and emotion and leaning into it, yet having some comedic levity within there. So, um, I, I, I reached out, uh, and, but I was thinking it would be probably a short film, a 20 minute, like slice of life Verite short. Uh, so long story short, I reached out, he was like, come on out to Vegas. We can meet. I brought a camera just in case he was ready to go. He was. So the day I met him with the day we started filming and, um, and then, you know, you see early on in the film is those first moments there's actually a lot in the first act of this movie a lot that was just filmed the first day i

i met him like literally the the um the him inviting me to film him smoke meth literally happened an hour into us even meeting each other what was your reaction i mean we're getting your reaction in part in the film but internally what are you thinking when you're like, I'm going to make a 20-minute short kind of on a lark. And on my first meeting, I can see the world unfolding very quickly from this guy's perspective. Like I've hit gold?

At least the drug use portion of that day. It's kind of in my amateurish mind i was like oh my god i hit gold yeah i hit gold like i didn't even do anything and this guy's allowing me to film something he's never allowed anyone to film like i'm a genius like clearly that's not true i just lucked out there um but it definitely took many many trips and attempts to try to penetrate. Jonathan is a, is a comedic performer and it's, um, I'm not sure. Uh, I ultimately think we, we tapped into him and we, there's a lot of humanity present in, in this movie, uh, with him being transparent at, at times. But, um, certainly, certainly we had to go back many, many times and make many,

many attempts because I think Jonathan's first instinct is to do bits and stuff. And ultimately, we're trying to get beyond the bits and talk about, again, real, real life stakes and real life, you know, interests. And what do you remember the first time when you thought, am I being worked? Yeah, you know, no, but I don't remember the exact time where I was like, huh, how can I believe this guy? But looking back on it, and I wish we were filming. I wish we were like, you know, Nick Broomfield? Yeah, sure. And we started doing this, even me not really knowing too many of his movies or maybe seeing any of his movies at this time. We started anytime I would, like later in the production, anytime we would approach like someone's door, we would be filming.

So you could see me knocking just in case, who knows what's going to happen. But the first time I met Jonathan, we weren't rolling. I learned to do that later. But here's the story with this. I can't believe I missed this. But me and my buddy, John Roig, who's my sound guy producer, that first trip to Vegas, we go up to Jonathan's door in Vegas. Knock, knock, knock. Minutes go by. Nothing.

Knock, knock, knock. Still, a minute goes by. Nothing. And then all of a sudden, door starts to slowly open. And Jonathan, you know, starts to slowly come out. And he's got a walker. And his energy is like, Hey, it's really low. And he doesn't look good. And it's like, as the door opened, I saw him and a

wave rushed over me and, and just this feeling of, Oh my God, what have I done? Like I've, you know, been prepping this for, for a little bit, trying to get, get to, uh, get to him, um, and, and schedule it all and then i see this i'm confronted with the idea that oh what what i've been chasing here is i'm making a documentary about a dying man like this man is no question about it he is dying and he's like come on in and we start to slowly walk in and i'm just like deer in headlights and then he turns around he's like i'm just fucking with you And he throws the rocker or the walker. And it's like, and he's just like, hey, come on.

And he's like totally normal. So like that's in essence, you know, my experience with him. He's leading you down one path. He's saying this is real. You believe it. And then he either comes out with a prank or it comes out being a prank or you start to question, well, what, what can I believe? How quickly does the movie become a full length feature?

Uh, well, it took a quite long, long time. But at what point did you realize this is how we have to do it? Well, okay. So something that isn't a spoiler because it's in the trailer and it's, we've been talking about a lot is six months into filming Jonathan. Uh, and what, you know, I started just watching him. He, he basically retired, right. And he was given a year to live. And however, he outlived his, um, his expiration date, his doctor gave by three

years. So he was just sitting around pretty much, unfortunately waiting to die, not performing and just not doing anything. And, and, you know, that's not a good place for, for anyone, I think. So, um, he was bored and I was documenting that and him going to kind of magic conventions and, you know, normal life. And then he decides to mount a comeback now. Uh, and I'm like, okay, I, the doc will, will, we have to document that. That's something that something's happening now. Um, so six months filming, two days before we are going to fly to Boston where his first comeback show is, he lets me know he's bringing, he's allowing another documentary crew to come into his life to film another documentary on him, which at the time, then this was off camera because I wasn't filming everything at this point, was, was, uh, I was of course hurt and confused and, and why would Jonathan

do this to me? I have already invested my own money and we've, I considered him a friend of course. And so that's where that was a fork in the road, right? That was me, um, needing to decide, am I going to give up and not compete with this other crew? And by the way, the other crew was explained to me as they were, you know, they had some affiliation with, they were Academy Award winning filmmakers or producers or some Academy, they had Academy accolades, right? And I'm

nobody, I'm an amateur documentarian, I'm just nobody. So am I going to give up or am I going to try to compete with this Goliath, right? Or, oh, yeah, how do I compete with them? How do I move forward if I choose to move forward? And that's when I was like, well, what if I was to open up the aperture of this frame here, the story, and allow this competition or this element of, Hey, there's another crew here, uh, to allow that to be part of the story. So I, at that, at that point, it was six months into it. I had spent only pennies, you know, just keeping costs low and stuff. If it didn't, I was going to experiment. What, what's that, what would that look like? Let's go to Boston and let's at least try that. If it didn't work out, I could have given up. Not much would have been lost, right? So we experiment and interesting things are

revealed. And it's quite funny to see two crews competing over one person in the same space. And I was like, okay, maybe there is something here. Maybe we need to see where this goes. What phase of production were you in in the film through that six months? Had you contacted other comedians to sit down to supply color? Did you not yet know what the arc was? Oh, I absolutely didn't know what the arc would become.

Well, no one could have predicted what this movie becomes. Exactly, yeah. But even setting that aside, was there a part of you that was like, maybe he'll die while we're filming him and yeah was was there a part of you that was like maybe he'll die while while we're filming him and that will give me a kind of shape to the story were you thinking i need to have a cutoff point for finishing this piece definitely you know what was

great and i want to try to um emulate this uh in the future is at that time i wasn't judging anything i wasn't planning much and you, you know, a doc filmmaker, this guy, Adam Ridley, early on, I sat down, got coffee with him. And I was like, so, you know, what should I be doing now? Like, there's not much happening and blah, blah, blah. And he's like, don't worry about it. Your job right now is just to be around Jonathan and get footage. Don't judge it. Don't worry about getting establishing shots. Just film him, be there. That's your job now. And for a long time, I just didn't judge it. And I just went with it. And I think if you try to plan things out and you have this preconceived notion too early on, you're

going to miss maybe what the story is really about. Maybe. Was when the second crew was introduced when you decided that you should become a bigger part of the story? Oh, well, yeah, that's, that's when I, uh, decided to again, experiment with, well, if, if I allowed that to be part of the narrative here, well, that's only one side of this two sided situation. Like how do you tell the story of competition if you only have one side of the competition in a way, right? So I felt like from a simple standpoint it's okay now if i if i then begin filming them filming him and i myself am filmed like that just sounds fun coming out of your mouth yeah it's like that sounds dumb enough to maybe work like this charlie kaufman you know i i don't think i aim to be meta uh i think i certainly probably to a fault fell back on that and we we really try to strip

out you know all the kind of it was more meta than it is now in the past but yeah did you have to raise money at any point did you have to because as the film is taking shape and you see that it's a bigger project than what you'd previously imagined there's probably more travel more time spent sure you can't do the episodic television you've been doing necessarily because you're devoting more time to this. How do you sell a movie like this to a producer or financier? Great question. So for a very, very long time, it was just me pulling some favors with some friends, self-financing it myself for a year and a half. And within that time, I was still doing a couple, you know, episodes of this show and, you know, working and doing commercials throughout. It wasn't like this is every day of

my, my life. Like, and that, that helped that, you know, doing something over time. If Jonathan was to, you know, put an obstacle in my way or get mad at me, like I could go away for a little bit, do something, re-approach him and, you know, things, energies calm down. So it taking place over time was helpful. But yeah, so for a year and a half, it was just me financing it and making it. And then at a year and a half into it, I had edited together enough. I basically edited together an assembly of what, you know, at the time I was thinking were the first two acts. And, uh, I had gotten new management, this great guy, Jacob Perlin at anonymous content, who just believed in the film. And we together showed, um, showed a couple of financers, uh, uh, the,

the assembly. And literally the day that we showed it to, uh, first time we showed it to any financers later that day, a company came back and said, we're in, we want, we want to, we want to finish this up with you. So we got producers and financiers and we move forward together. Did you make any comps? Did you say this movie is kind of like this movie?

So there's a market for this. I don't know if we articulated that, but I think in, in the edit, in the footage, in what we were going for, I think probably to them, I think that at one point they referenced Catfish. They said they always wanted to make their own Catfish and this is having never seen Catfish, which is crazy. I think it's people have mentioned that. They have, yeah. I've referenced many things. It's to me comps, if you want to talk comps, which is fun, it's a little bit of everything. And I think, I don't want to give anything away, but the movie evolves, maybe devolves, as it continues.

Like, the first act is one type of movie. The second act, it then shifts into another type. And then the third act becomes a little bit more different or elevated or, or disgusting to some, I don't know. Um, but yeah, definitely when I started, I was like, this is a Verite DA Penny Baker style doc, you know, no, no talking heads, no tripods. This is art, you know, I'm going to observe and, and rough it out. Right. Um, and that's, you know, the essence of the first act, which then we had to kind of dress it up and,

and, and do a couple more traditional things with it. Uh, and then the second act, Oh, I don't know the comp, but ultimately it becomes like tickled has been referenced. Um,

any like, you know, investigative doc, ultimately like my involvement was, was very much like, and, and me including people in my life in this movie and and reflections on you know my life is is you know ross mclewee's

sherman's march amazing movie yeah yeah that was a big i was like okay might as well film my dad and see what he has to say about it and it was like oh that works what were other people who are not featured in the film saying to you when you were describing what you were going through with the movie? Because you show some intimate members of your family talking about it, but I imagine you've got this world of friends who are in comedy. I don't know if you have friends in magic as well, but what's unfolding is obviously bizarre, and I imagine you want to share that with people and get their perspective on what you're doing. Yeah, totally. obviously bizarre and I imagine you want to share that with people and get their perspective on what you're doing yeah totally the people that weren't documented um uh my friend Josh my friend Andrew uh a number of others um uh did anybody say keep going did anybody say you need to quit no well like my friends are good and they're like at the early on it was before the turn before the other

crew came in it's like well what's the story, man? Like, you got to, I can't really encourage, like, yeah, I encourage you to keep going, but I can't judge anything yet. You haven't presented me anything to really judge. So I was like, you know, come on. Okay, fine. Let me give you something to judge. And then, yeah, but once together, literally, I recorded me calling my friend Andrew, Josh, and my buddy Dave Kneebone and asking them their advice. Like, what do I do with the second crew?

Should I do this? Should I make it part of the story? And they all were like, well, what do you have to lose? Yeah. Like, now there's conflict. Storytelling. What's a story without conflict? You know, so.

But they were all very supportive. Can we have a spoilery conversation? I would prefer not to, to be honest. Period. Well, okay. Do you want to pause for a second and talk about what I would call a spoiler and what's not,

and then you promise to edit it out? I do, but I like the idea of keeping this part of the conversation. That's fine. This is part of the process. See, you get it, bro. Okay. I'll write it down.

I'll write what we should. Oh, I love that. And I'll slide across the table and show. This is part of the process. See, you get it, bro. Okay. I'll write it down. I'll write what we should. Oh, I love that. And I'll slide it across the table and then... This is good. This is... We're making very good right now.

Now either your audience is... Okay, do not talk. Do not mention specifically. Should I vamp while you write and I'll read it? I can just keep

talking. You know, I would obviously highly recommend this movie I think if you're still listening to to this show you're intrigued why am I and you're gonna go watch it you're gonna pause it wasting time here and someone's texting me okay and and um uh of course this is needless to say okay just specifically not mentioning those and then anything else is fair game. That's perfectly fine. I don't mind not talking about these two things that you've written down here. I feel, while I'm watching this movie, I've seen it twice now, like I'm being worked by you.

I love that. In what way? Let me, let the two interviewers, I'm going to interview you as you interview me. Okay, this is exciting. So, how so? You feel like, go ahead. I don't trust you. I don't trust you. I don't trust you.

In what way? Because I think you're... I look at, particularly after I finish the film, and I'm left with a kind of gnawing feeling, which is an amazing feeling to have after a movie. Most movies end and you're like... A what feeling? A gnawing, like G-N-A-W.

Oh, not satisfied? You're like, something irks you. I feel unresolved, which is not a bad thing. I think that's a good feeling to have after a movie, most times you see a movie and it ends and the resolution. Like, okay, we go and then we talk about something else going on in our lives at dinner. This movie, I wanted to watch it again. My man. I was interested.

But given your background. I love it. Given the way that you portray yourself and given the kind of like hapless aspect of the way that you've portrayed yourself a little bit i walked away feeling like how much performance is happening beyond jonathan and i don't know how to get to the bottom of that while talking to you even though i'm fascinated by it and i'm fascinated by this movie well yeah okay so if you want to ask me specific questions, I'm cool to answer them. I will say this at every Q&A, eventually someone stands up and says, basically what you just said, like, we know about your scripted background in this weird comedy world, and we know that you're not a doc guy. And so much of this movie begs the question of, is me trying to determine what's real, what's not, what's truth, what's illusion.

You know, the ending might be so, I'm very proud of the ending. Like, is this real? How can we believe you? And what I say is, absolutely, this is real. This is a documentary. These things happen. These things happen. These things happened. Now, I'll say if people question like me performing, I can't say I'm necessarily performing, but the moment for me or for any subject, the moment a camera enters the equation, we think that documentaries are these mediums or or we think they should be, these mediums that show the truth, right? Seek the truth and show the truth. The moment that you have, would we be sitting here talking together if we weren't recording it? And

how would I be acting? This is all, from the get-go, it is a contrivance. It's manipulation of the truth to try to get the truth, which is very interesting. So can I say that if I didn't have a camera on me, would I be looking at my computer? And the camera changes things. So I'll say this, this isn't a scripted movie. This is not some prank, even though I love people questioning that. So there was a part of me to that point that felt like there were a lot of conversations that you and Jonathan had off camera. I love that. I actually don't think that that's actually true at all. Really?

Yeah. There's like, we maybe had some phone calls. I tried to record as many phone calls as I could, but I would always ask his permission and sometimes he didn't want it. Um, but no man, like after the second crew came in, I was like, I want to, I need to film as much as I can. Cause you never know when something's going to happen. So we just started doing that. Um, but no, like there was never a moment where Jonathan and I talked off, off camera and was like, Hey man, let's collaborate on this thing. Like if you were to fuck me over more, like that would be cool. That would be really good for the movie or hey if we could really get one over on the whole audience blah blah it did i it didn't happen did you did he have a sense of

the kind of meta textual approach that you were taking to the movie no no no not for the longest time i was trying to tell him like later in production, I was trying to, and I still stand by this. I was trying to get him on board with as much as I could. And I, I basically told him this. And I, again, I totally agree with this. So Jonathan's magic act, right? It's not a traditional magic act. His, his act was always taking a magic trick, maybe a trope, a trope of magic and basically

deconstructing it for comedic value or for that. That was the essence of his act is I'm going to take this. I'm going to mess it up. I'm going to deconstruct it and make it something new. That was his whole act. So I was trying to tell Jonathan like, Hey, I actually think this movie is basically doing the same thing. Like this, where we show the process of making this movie for comedic value and for humanity sake, and we deconstruct this movie to create something new. So I 100% agree that that is what you have done, and that is part of what makes it a wonderful movie. And it's part of what I think is going to make people interested in trying to deconstruct

what you have deconstructed. There's a but coming. And thank you for everything you just said. But that's why people don't trust it. Is because even though the film does not have really any convention happening, like you instantaneously people are like, this actually is too neat. It's actually too metaphorically neat. Go, you know,

what you're basically telling me is hey man, your movie is too perfect. I didn't say that, but it is very precise. Well, I'm a very thorough filmmaker. Yeah. I'm very proud of the themes of this movie and the parallels and the connections and what's going on. Oh, F for Fake is also was an inspiration, which I only saw deep into production.

I was like, oh. I've seen that cited in a lot of reviews. The Orson Welles movie. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, and I love that. Sorry to,

I don't want to take you off. Not at all. You know, that movie ends up being, I don't, can you spoil an Orson Welles movie made in the 70s? Do you have a fact checker?

Can you do that? Just hit the fast forward 30 seconds button if you don't want to hear the ending of F for Fake. Anyway, he says at the beginning of the movie, he basically is, you know, playing a magician or I don't know.

He was a magician, right? He basically says, for the next hour in this movie, I'm going to tell you nothing but the truth. And the movie is about frauds and fakes and forgers, you know, these deceivers, right? And then the movie ends and there's like miscellaneous, like different stories throughout, throughout the movie. And then the story, the movie ends and he buttons it by saying, I told you, you know, for, for the next hour, I'm going to tell you nothing but the truth, but the truth, the movie was an hour and a half long. And he said, so for the last 30 minutes, I've been lying to you. That last part wasn't true. Like that's genius. A document like where

you, I love that because it's not just, you're not just watching. You're not just passively watching something at that point. You then going back, you're like it's like to be confronted by audience members festival goers jerks like me questioning the authenticity of what you've done because it's that's that's rare that's it's unusual not just in documentary but kind of in all art to say like this feels unreal to me how have you been receiving that were you surprised when that was the initial reaction? No, I really love that. I really love that. I don't want it to go down dark roads, you know. I really love people questioning that because to me that makes – I hear that question.

And maybe tell me if you think I'm spinning it in a more positive way than I should. But I really react to that. Like people are basically saying like, this is so good. This is so unbelievable. How can we believe it? But like, you know, this moment, this guy and who he is like that. It's real. You're pointing at the spoiler paper. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Yeah, exactly. Well, we can't tell your audience. I won't spoil it. It's got to be so annoying for listeners. Like, what? Just go watch the movie. That's the point. It's good for you.

And that's such a ploy. Like, that's such a, like, well, you just got to watch it. You're continuing the meta text. I appreciate it. Well, yeah. I don't know. I think if people persist and go like, I don't know. I don't know.

Too granular. Like, it's going to start getting annoying. Like, am I going to have to address every edit? Like, yeah, of course we edited the movie. And of course, like we took liberties with chronology, but like I got no problem with that. There's no ethical conundrum with that. This is, this all really happened.

And yeah, that's that. What does Jonathan think of the movie? Um, where I would, I like to believe, and he's, he's been very vocal. The first time we showed him the movie at Sundance, all the Q and A's and all the screenings we've done together, he's been very, very vocal with, wow, Ben, you made a great movie. This is, I'm, I'm, I'm really happy with this. And then sometimes I'll read in press, like he's upset that we did this or that, like it's tough to get a full, full read on him. Overall, I think he's extremely, extremely happy with it.

He's out here in LA promoting the movie. There's a lot of, yeah, I feel like him and his wife, like literally last night, his wife Anna wrote this beautiful message about me and about how they're proud of the movie. And like me and Jonathan were going back on social media today being like, you love you love you buddy like so I think we're good you know we we definitely as the filmmaker I went down some interesting rabbit holes and took certain elements and Jonathan to task but where we where we stand right now like we're good fingers crossed that could change tomorrow but uh you know you never know what you're going to get with him. Are you guys in frequent touch despite the, you know,

aside from the obvious promotion of the film, have you been talking to him since January? We've, when we do talk, it's now centered around the movie. It's like, oh, you're going to go to Detroit,

Jonathan? Oh, I can't make it, but I'm going to be in San Francisco, and I know, you know, all that stuff. So,

it's not like we chat on the phone, you know, and say good night. Good night, lover, you know, or anything like that. That would be weird. Most doc subjects and filmmakers wish each other good night. I don't think that's what D.A. Pennypaker did. Yeah. So can you just describe Sundance for me a little bit? Were you part of a bidding war?

How did that all go down? How was the film received? What was it? It was magical. Yeah. To use a word that may, you know, make bidding war? How did that all go down? How was the film received? What is it like? It was magical. Yeah? To use a word that may, you know, make sense.

But no, it's awesome. I've been there with two short films. Now, I'll say this. I recorded an episode of The Business,

the KCRW show yesterday, and I cried while talking about this. Love that show. I don't know if I'm going to cry with you. I don't think I will. We're having a different kind of conversation.

I know. It's like a bro conversation. And Kim Masters is this wonderful Jewish woman, and I cry around Jewish women. Okay. I'm sorry I couldn't do that for you. You've seen the movie with my mom and all that stuff. So Sundance was all, oh, sorry. It makes me cry.

See, pranking. You never know what you're going to get. You're not trustworthy. I got to, yeah, I know. Sundance was incredible. I'm like changing characters. I can't do this. Sundance was awesome. Yeah, we got in and that was just such a huge thing. Like struggling with this movie and bearing my struggles and then to get there, which is, oh God, I actually might cry. We're together, man. I know.

You're so close. I know. Um, uh, and to finally get there, uh, is, is awesome. So it's definitely a special place for me. People are awesome. And to go there and my family came out and, and it was, it was really, really incredible, good friends and stuff. And, uh, we premiered, I think on a Friday, the first Friday, and it was a incredible premiere, a lot of laughs, a lot of cries, you know, exactly what you wanted. Did a fun Q&A. And yeah, then, you know, a couple days into it, I think, you know, we, you know, basically I started to hear like two days into it,

like, hey man, your film's buzzy. Heard about your film. You're the film, you're the buzzy film. I'm like, I, it's so, and it was very weird to be told you're the buzzy film or a buzzy film and not experience it and i was like i don't i disagree i haven't heard any buzz but just people kept on saying like yeah buzzy buzzy my manager was saying like yeah man you're you you could get into any party right now you're ben like i was like i wanted to believe that and then we go to parties uh i think so we went to some parties but then like that party he was like you can get into any party right now you're bad

it's like and then we didn't get into the party but then like we basically got our first offer and we were like okay shit like if we were to if we were to end here we're we're good like we did it and then there was a yeah i guess what one calls a bidding war where we're a couple um uh distributors were were you know we were negotiating with our sales agent and that it's a beautiful thing and uh there was a lot of like being called into the sales agent's house like last minute be like hey it's going down tonight like the sale's gonna go down tonight as if it was like a pregnancy like we didn't have control over it i was like wait if we just slow down everyone take a breath like we control this we control who you know whatever not to get into

the business of it too much but um ultimately yeah we're very proud of uh very happy very very grateful and proud of um the you know going with hulu and uh why why did you go with them was it based on what they had done with docs was based on i'll say i'll say this no no uh no need to skirt this uh huge fan of minding the gap my favorite movie last year yeah yeah i would probably say mine too movie or doc movie yeah minding the gap is pretty great and the way i'll say this the way i found that movie i think i just like was scrolling through facebook and it was literally like last year. It was last year in August. I was just scrolling through Facebook.

It was a hot summer inside in the AC. And I see like this, you know, ad, you know, a trailer. And I'm like, okay, I'll watch it. And I just, it was so organic. No one like, like, it was just very organic. And I love the movie and I love what Hulu was doing with it and the way they were supporting it. So, like, that was kind of a huge, huge reason to go do it. What are you going to do now?

You got a movie coming up? How do you follow as crazy a story as this one? What's your advice? I don't know anything. I just talk to you guys. I don't do this um i yeah i think i'm i continue if i if i live i i continue to do what i do which is seek out and create um meaningful stories to me that i feel can speak to uh you know can find an

audience that's meaningful for me to tell and meaningful for them to hear that balances sadness and darkness and humanity with, with comedic levity. And, and so, yeah, so I basically, I've got a doc series in the works. Yeah. And the nonfiction stuff, there's a doc series, very excited about there's a feature doc, very excited about all um you know attempting to and hopefully allowing pushing the boundaries pushing form we'll you know very excited about those and then in scripted stuff there's this wonderful uh dark comedy about also kind of dealing with with death and assisted suicide uh um that's kind of my passion project and a number of like comedy, you know, more so comedy projects. Can you make a living just doing the doc work? Is that a lucrative business?

I'm always curious with documentarians because it's a boom time, but at the same time, the margins can be thin. I think there's so many way to do it, which probably makes more sense. And then there's the way that I found myself or happened into doing it with this movie, which is like snowball it, make this thing on your own basically, get some good collaborators and then go to a market like Sundance and sell it. I'm not sure what's best. I could definitely, at this point, use a little stability and some comfort, especially after making this movie. But yeah, we're going to try. We're going to try to live off doing stuff like this.

I wish you well. Ben, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they've seen. Okay. Seen anything great lately? I have. Well, I'll say this. The last thing I rewatched was The Florida Project, which I freaking love. How great is that movie?

Wonderful. Sean Baker was here when it came out. Was he? I want to get in touch with him. If he's listening, Sean, I'm a big fan. I think you're very good. Great director. Great director. with him if he's listening sean i'm a big fan i think you're very good great director great director um the last doc uh thing i saw that i really really responded to is a doc series that's

on showtime called shangri-la i haven't seen it okay so morgan neville uh produced and directed two of the four episodes and it's it's about uh shangri-la is um is Rick Rubin's recording studio and just like Zen environment that he has in Malibu. And it has a great history. And the show, each episode is just so beautiful and so well constructed and just so ethereal. And it's just such a pleasure to watch and very, very amazing and engaging. It's basically about the artistic process. It's just this wonderful philosophical, you know, waxing poetic about things. But it's very good.

I recommend it. I'll have to check that out. Let me ask you one more question. If you could. I faked the whole movie. Yeah. It's all fake. Bye.

Good job. If you could program a double feature with the Amazing Jonathan documentary. That is a good question. What would you pair it with? Oh, the other one. The other Amazing Jonathan documentary. Right? I want to help them out.

I want the best for them. So, yes, them. You've got me not trusting you all the way to the end. Ben, thank you for doing this. I for real would have or Ross McElwee's Sherman Smart. That would work too. I appreciate you, man. Thank you.

Thank you. Appreciate you. Thank you again for listening to The Big Picture. Thank you, of course, to Amanda Dobbins, to our special guest Wesley Morris, and to the filmmaker Ben Berman. Please stay tuned to this feed, where next week, Amanda and Chris Ryan and I will be breaking down some summer movie awards

as we analyze the end of what has been, I think what could be charitably called a fairly woeful season. See you then.