The Big Picture - ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ Is Just the Beginning for Rian Johnson | The Big Picture (Ep. 41)

Episode Date: December 18, 2017

Ringer editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey chats with writer-director Rian Johnson about making ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi,’ putting his own spin on the franchise, and his upcoming spinoff trilogy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I feel like if you can't have fun in a Star Wars movie, what the hell are you in a Star Wars movie for? But I get it. I mean, different people want different things from Star Wars movies. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is a special bonus episode of The Big Picture. And it's a special episode because we had the chance to talk with the man of the hour, the writer-director of Star Wars The Last Jedi, Rian Johnson. Rian has long been tipped as the future of

big-top Hollywood franchise movies, and with The Last Jedi he does something unique. He makes a story bound by mythology into something he can call his own. Rian and I talked about how he did that, the characters he couldn't wait to write for, the trilogy of Star Wars movies he signed up to make next, and the filmmaker who blows his mind. So without further ado, here's our special mini-pod with Rian Johnson. I am seeing Rian Johnson for the second time in two days. He introduced a screening of Star Wars The Last Jedi last night at Arclight Hollywood, or at least a man who looked like Rian Johnson.

One of their employees. It was a striking resemblance to me. Rian, thank you for joining us on the show today. Thanks for having me. Rian, I want to jump right into things. What was the best piece of advice you got before you started on this journey towards The Last Jedi? The best piece of advice was from JJ's editors

who told me no matter what scene you're shooting, if BB-8's in the scene, take 10 minutes and get a cutaway shot of BB-8 reacting to everything. You will not regret it. How much BB-8 is on the cutting room floor then? Oh, there's quite a bit. There's a whole, and we had a couple of really fun little bits that we had that we ended up cutting out, but with BB-8 in them. But there's a ton on the editing room floor. We had a lot of scenes that we cut. All my colleagues uh after they saw the film last night that was their big takeaway is protect bb8 at all costs i know one must it's incredible so ryan i want to know your previous films world building is a big part of what you do not necessarily in maybe the marvel

cinematic universe sense but you're creating a new language at times and creating a new history or a new future. You're obviously entering established mythology here. What was it like for you to try to figure out how to build your own worlds inside of these stories? Well, I mean, for me, I guess because it was something where, you know, the world of it is kind of me trying to capture what Star Wars felt like, what those movies felt like to me and what they were to me when I was growing up. So I guess, first of all, everyone's gonna have a slightly different interpretation of that, you know, I guess. And that to me, tonally at least, defines what Star Wars always was for me. But then there's a lot more, obviously, you know,

it's a big complicated question. And that's one that I kind of answered just by making this movie. This is kind of what Star Wars feels like to me, I guess. Did you have to channel your 13-year-old self? Yeah, you always had to check back. It was an invaluable resource, you know, having that sort of internal compass of, does this feel right to me? And it's tricky because every single fan has a different compass because everyone grew up also in a slightly different time. I was 10 years old when Return of the Jedi came out, I think. So I was in prime age for that movie.

But then as I became an adult, Empire was the one that I got more and more into. But of course, New Hope was like the very first one I was into with toys and so all this imagery from that is deeply embedded anyway it's it's just it's it's a very personal thing i know it's different for every fan um but i i had to make it personal i had to kind of make my version of what felt right in it when you were writing or making the film would you go back and watch those films or did you try to have a little bit of personal distance? Oh, no, I would go back and re-watch them. I know them so well, you know.

It's not like I had to refresh my memory with them, but I did find it was good to go back and just get the spirit of them more than anything else. And inevitably, that was the thing that would surprise me when you go back and watch them, whether it's, you know, the banter on the Death Star during their mission between all three of them, or Han, Leia, and 3PO on the Falcon and Empire, the sense, the way that they always have that slightly, almost like, you know, I don't know,

never tipping over but verging on screwball sense of fun and banter, the way that that is never far apart from our characters in the original trilogy. It was good to always remind yourself of that. Yeah, your movie has a great comic tone, and it's something that people have really noticed, which is in Force Awakens, but it seems like it's pitched up a little bit here. Were you worried about any pushback when you were writing the story

about what you could and couldn't get in there tonally? No, I just tried to make it feel right to me, I guess. I mean, I think there is probably a lot of humor in it, very intentionally, you know, and I know that, you know, I'm sure there'll be some folks that feel like there's too much. I don't. I feel like if you can't have I know that, you know, I'm sure there'll be some folks that feel like there's too much. I don't, I feel like if you can't have fun in a Star Wars movie,

what the hell are you in a Star Wars movie for? But, but I get it. I mean, different people want different things from Star Wars movies. And if it, you know, for me, I, I don't know, I really enjoyed, especially because I knew we were going to be going to some darker, more intense places. Because I knew we were going to be sitting on an island for a big chunk of the movie talking about religion. I wanted there to be a buoyancy to the movie that kept it light on its feet and kept it feeling like a Star Wars movie. Who was the character you were most excited to sink your teeth into? Kylo Ren. Tell me more about him.

Well, first of all, Adam is just one of my favorite young actors working today. But I mean, I could say that about any one of the cast, you know, Boyega and Oscar and Daisy, everyone. But the fact that with Kylo, JJ and Larry and Michael created this character who, I don't know, the potential just seems so great to dig into him. The fact that he wants to be Vader but isn't. The fact that there's a complexity and kind of an emotional vulnerability there. But that he still is an absolutely despicable guy who you hate coming into this because he killed Han Solo. And the fact that we have a perfect proxy of Rey to come at him with. I don't know.

I was rubbing my hands together. I couldn't wait to get into Kylo. Yeah, Adam is incredible in the movie. That was my biggest takeaway is his character represents something that is, I think, somewhat unique about your movie, which is there's a profound moral ambiguity to a lot of the storylines. And that seems like it could be perceived as a risk. I'm wondering kind of how you arrived at some of the choices you made there. Well, somewhat, but at the same time, I think these movies have a tradition of that, you know. I guess for me, the seeds of that are in Go Back to Empire, you know, they're with the vader reveal where in the first

movie darth vader he was a very simple black and white vader is the bad guy you can hate vader and boo vader we want to kill him and then with one moment with i am your father suddenly vader is not that suddenly vader is part of our protagonist in a weird way and we have to think about him in more complex terms and we have to think about him in more complex terms. And we have to think about him, not in terms of just this thing we can project our shadow onto mindlessly, but we have to suddenly integrate him into our own journey and think about redemption with him.

The prequels, my God, the prequels are, talk about something where it's literally from taking, you know, the most innocent angel of a good spirited child possible and seeing how they turn into a fascist beast. Fascinating, like showing the layers that Lucas built into that Anakin's journey in the prequels. So no, I think that's always been an element of these films. And I think at the end of the day, just like in the previous films, we do land on, this is, you know, cause, cause it's something I believe we land on what's worth fighting for.

And we land on, you know, I don't think we necessarily land on a note of, of pure ambiguity, but I think acknowledging it as part of any story. Yeah. There's a real power in the, which way will someone go in the movie, you know, and it applies to almost every character that we meet. What, was there any character that was challenging for you since you obviously didn't create some of the new characters, but then you felt this emotional fealty to the original trilogy? Yeah. Anybody you had a hard time kind of tapping into? Well, I mean, the toughest, not to crack at the beginning, cause it was the very first thing I had to figure out was Luke, um, because he was my hero growing up. Luke was my guy when I was a kid

in the original trilogy. And because, you know, coming out of Force Awakens, you don't know much about him, but the big thing you know about him is a very defining thing, which is his friends are fighting the good fight, and he's taking himself out of it. You know, he's sidelined himself. Knowing what I know about Luke from growing up, why did he do that? And he has to believe that he's doing the right thing by taking himself out of the fight. And once you start putting in those terms and putting the pieces together, where he's at in a journey for him very quickly starts defining itself. And there are less options than you think in terms of where his head can be at. So it was just a process for me of figuring out what that was going to be.

And it was a tough one because the Luca that I knew from the original movies is the one I love. And he's in a different place now. It's like when someone you know and love when you're growing up changes, you know, they're both changes. And also you have to still be able to draw a line between then and now and see how they got there. And it has to make sense to you. So it was a challenge. Yeah. He has like a sort of a Boo Radley quality in the movie a little bit. Were there other archetypes that you were thinking about when you were trying to recast some of these famous characters? A little bit, yeah. I mean, yeah, Luke's got kind of a Fisher King type thing going on with him.

He's very much the fallen king. He also, you know, and then with Leia and Poe and Holdo and that whole section, you know, I rewatched a bunch of World War II movies, and there's a recurring thing of the hotshot young pilot bumping up against the figure of authority in the military who's trying to teach them the real hard lessons. Anyone in particular that stood out to you? Well, 12 O'Clock High was a big reference. Gregory Peck in that movie is amazing. Dawn Patrol, which is a British film with David Niven, has got a similar kind of vibe. But it's all over.

I mean, you see it over and over again in World War II movies. It's a recurring trope. And especially in trying to figure out how do we challenge Poe, who is just this badass fighter pilot who everyone loves, thinking about in the context of old war films, suddenly I was like, oh, this could be the key to how to kind of push this character a bit what was the most challenging thing about actually making the movie on set we had you know we had a really good experience on set I don't really have any like war stories I kind of wish I did because it would be more interesting but um was there anything sort of like intellectual that you

couldn't wrap your head around yeah I mean every single day there were challenges but uh and I think that it was yeah every single day but in terms of the character work with the actors, something would come up. Especially because the story does have some complexity to it on several different levels because there's a lot, luckily we had rehearsal time with all the actors. And so we had weeks in advance to sit down with, like I sat down with Mark and Daisy and we just went through all the stuff. I talked them through why each scene was the way it was. But then even so, you get the scene on its feet on set and if something's not playing, you got to figure out why. Yeah, would you guys change things in the middle? Oh, absolutely, 100%. Once you get on set, for me, even though I wrote the script, suddenly it's a different person who wrote the script. And plans when you were doing the script, but now you're in the boat and it's springing leaks and you don't want to sink. So you just got to do what you got to do.

So just to wrap up, let's talk a little bit about your journey into the next 10, 20 years of your life. You're committed to making this new trilogy. But I've also heard you talk about wanting to still be able to do other films that are not in this universe. So I'm curious about how you demarcate all of this headspace for Star Wars and then everything else that you want to do in your career. I'm curious too, man. No, I don't have a grand plan. I'm just at the very beginning of starting to think about what the next years are going to look like.

Yeah, I have a couple of really well-formed ideas for smaller movies that I want to get done, but I'm also, it's not like I've got those and I'm like, oh God, and also I have to do this. I mean, the Star Wars stuff is the idea of a new trilogy. It's kind of it's everything I ever wanted

to make movies for, you know. It's incredibly exciting. And so, yeah, but in terms of time allocation-wise, how it's going to work. Sounds tricky. Yeah, it's going to be tricky, but I'm going to dive into it and figure it out. Do you have any concern about spending too much time in Star Wars world? I don't right now. No. I mean, for me, I'm not really thinking of it in those terms. For me,

I'm just thinking of the notion of telling a story on this canvas of three films right now in this world, just in the immediate, I'm standing on the diving board about to jump into this pool, just is so creatively invigorating and exciting to me. So no, that's not where my head's at at all. And if my head ever goes there, I promise I'll step out. I promise I'll tap out because I think that these movies will be invigorating and alive and exciting as long as the people telling them

feel invigorated and alive and excited to be telling them last question always end the show with what's the last great thing you've seen? what is the last great thing you've seen? Phantom Thread you've been talking and writing about that a little bit

can you just tell me a little bit about it? well he's my favorite filmmaker working today. I think that he – I don't want to wax on about it, wax on, wax off about it. Yeah, what he does is just – it's magic to me, the way that movies were magic when I was a kid. What he captures transcends technique, and it really is like music. It's something that just evokes. It gets in my head. It lives there.

Already this movie, I've just seen it twice, but already it's this living thing in my head that I go to and filtering the world through. And it's the same way for The Master, There Will Be Blood, or any of his movies, you know. And that's like the epitome of what good cinema can do, I think. Right now there's someone probably saying the same thing about you. I doubt that highly, but God bless you.

Ryan Johnson, thank you so much for doing this. Thanks a lot, I appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast with Ryan Johnson. And if you're interested in more Star Wars, the last Jedi content, please check out some of our other podcasts, including the watch and binge mode, both of which really went deep on Jedi and stay tuned later this week.

I'll have a very special podcast where I talk to some of the staffers at the ringer about the best movies of 2017. See you soon.