The Big Picture - Steve McQueen on ‘Widows’ and Reinventing the Heist Movie | Interview (Ep. 100)

Episode Date: November 19, 2018

Academy Award–winning director Steve McQueen stops by to discuss his new film, the Viola Davis–starring heist drama ‘Widows.’ Host: Sean Fennessey Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys? It's Liz Kelley. We just launched a brand new podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network hosted by our very own staff writer, Shea Serrano, called Villains. In the premiere episode, Shea is joined by Jason Concepcion and Sean Fennessy to dissect the iconic villain Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lambs. You can check out the first episode and subscribe right now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. The whole idea of, you know, a genre picture is up for grabs. There are no rules. A genre, in some ways, is about breaking the rules.

Before there was that genre, there was something else. I'm Sean Fennessy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world. Steve McQueen is here today. He's the director of Hunger, Shame, and the Academy Award-winning 12 Years a Slave. His new film is called Widows.

It's a heist movie, but this is no Ocean's Eleven. Set in Chicago, Widows stars Viola Davis, Michelle Rodriguez, Elizabeth Debicki, and Cynthia Erivo as four women battling expectation and fighting for their future. It's powerful and really entertaining. I talked to Steve about breaking the rules of genre and the future of where we watch movies. Here's Steve McQueen. Steve, thank you for coming in. My absolute pleasure.

And what a lovely office you have. Oh, thank you, Steve. Unfortunately, you guys can't see it, but it's a very beautiful, lovely courtyard. It's not so bad. It's not as good as your films. And I'm really excited to talk to you about your films. I really want to talk about Widows. But before that, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the period

right before this movie started. So 12 Years a Slave wins Best Picture and you are, you know, crowned as a great filmmaker in the world. What happens then right after that? Be going to work. Is that what you did? Well, yeah, you do. I was doing this thing for HBO, which didn't work out ultimately. But I think what one has to do is just sort of get on with the work. I think it's very nice, don't get me wrong. It's a great feeling.

But at the end of the day, it's all about the work. It's all about the stories you want to tell and the films you want to make and the art that you want to make. And I think, again, that kind of attention is great, but ultimately you want to get back to make. And I think, you know, again, that kind of attention is great, but ultimately you want to get back to work. Did you have a sense that you could do anything you wanted after that moment? Did the C's part in any meaningful way or was it just, I'm going to work on what I want? I've always been on my own track. I've never, you know, again, I never deviated from that because I know, you know, I've always been my own path. So I didn't need to sort of think that, oh, now I

could do this, now I could do this. No, I've been doing what I wanted from day one. So it was not a case of, you know, wanting to spend more money and make a bigger picture or any of that. It's just my ambitions are my own and I am my own ruler in that sense. Did you have any sense that you wanted to do something in genre specifically?

No, no. Again, it's about the story and guess what if genre comes with that brilliant beautiful um but it's about the story and for example widows from for me you know i saw the original tv show when i was 13 years old um and it just stayed with me and it stayed with me because i identified with those women as i said before many occasions i you know those women were being deemed as not being capable and being judged by their appearance, similar to how I was being judged as a 13-year-old black child growing up in London in the 80s. So, you know, the story was so compelling,

which Linda Plant wrote in 1983 when I first saw the series. But I actually wanted to make it into a film, but to take that out, basically to take the nucleus of that story, but put a different kind of background into it basically to take the nucleus of that story but put a different kind of background into it

from a mechanical point of view did you have to get rights and talk to the original creators and what was that like was that different for you

well no getting the rights I mean I was very grateful to the new regency who bought the rights for me to make the picture

and I didn't have to talk to Linda LaPlante of course I mean you run off and do it and run off and make what you want to make but for me I didn't have to talk to Linda LaPlante, of course. I mean, you run off and do it and run off and make what you want to make. But for me, it was very interesting to talk to the source person

about why and how and what. And she's a wonderful woman. She's a wonderful sort of mind. And I just wanted to dig into these characters she was talking about. Of course, my characters were very different to her characters. So I took certain bits of it

and obviously myself and Gillian Flynn, the co-writer, we went about our business. Why move it to America? Well, specifically Chicago. I wanted to place the narrative, the nucleus of the narrative

where it's four criminals die through an attempted heist and their partners take on the reins of their last of their last job because that's that's what i took from from um the linda plant tv series i want i always basically i want to plant it into a contemporary heightened western city and for me that was chicago i want to deal with race politics um corruption religion, the whole shebang. And for me, that location was always Chicago because I went there 22 years ago.

I went there when I was doing a museum show, my first sort of museum show in the Museum of Contemporary Art. And my wife, well, now my girlfriend at the time was going to the Democratic Convention when Bill Clinton was president. That was 96. So I've been going to Chicago for 22 years. I always say my first footprint in Chicago was art and politics.

And what's interesting about that for me was that, you know, to see the segregation of the city and how people were rubbing shoulders with each other, Lithuanian, Polish, African American, Irish, Italian American, Latino community. It was amazing. So it was, for me, Chicago was Rich Pickens as far as narrative is concerned. And to take that fiction and place it within the narrative of Chicago was for me a hand-in-glove situation. It's such an interconnected city too, and it's such a visual city.

How did you go about figuring out what you wanted your version of Chicago to chicago to look like how did you scout it how did you determine that i just wanted to tell talk i just wanted to allow it to tell me what it wanted so you know i don't go around with my stencil and put things on it and said it's gonna be like this but there's basically i mean there's one one good example of that is this um narrative piece in the in in the film where uh there's a car ride and we go from a sort of disheveled African-American neighborhood, predominantly, into a more sort of African, predominantly white middle class neighborhood in three minutes in one car ride. That's how segregated, but that's how close everything is. It's so visual. It's deafening.

And I wanted to tell that story through cinema. You have this amazing touch with the idea of gentrification and gerrymandering and the way that the politics and class are kind of colliding in real time. When you're working on something like that and you're bringing these big themes and you said religion and crime and gender, is that something that you beforehand say, these are issues I want to hit on? Or is it as you develop the

characters you find that they become vessels for those ideas it was just fascinating chicago was just so fascinating i mean it's all there um one doesn't have to flex their muscles all these sort of strands of power all intersect or you know you know interact with each other you you know, if it's, you know, religion and, uh, and votes and politicians and the police and criminality, you know, I was introduced to, to some kind of guy who was obviously involved in some kind of organized crime by a policeman. I know, you know, I mean, you know, we, we saw a lot of people, you know, off duty off record, um, not to say that he has anything to do with that criminal but he was

he introduced us to it yes you know I was introduced to the clergyman through a politician everyone all these things are interconnected

I remember one day myself and Gillian leaving the FBI after we were there for three and a half hours and I think we were like a we were like a therapy session

for them because often I don't think these guys actually talk to you know therapists I imagine. And because we're asking so many questions and again,

and going deeper and deeper and deeper and we're interested in their answers. I think they wanted us to sort of, they wanted to answer these questions.

Basically, they wanted us to stay because I think they were having this conversation they hadn't had for themselves even. So after three and a half hours of myself and Gillian

having this conversation with them and Ian Canning, my producer, was there, we walked out and it was almost like we saw the matrix for themselves even. So after three and a half hours of myself and Gillian having this conversation with him, and Ian Canning, my producer, was there, we walked out and it was almost like we saw the matrix, as in these numbers keep running down our faces. It's almost like we saw how this city worked. It's one of those things, and then what was so fascinating to me to deal with that,

but also to put this narrative in that, to see how these women, it's about these four women, how they surf and navigate. In fact, these women, in a way, are symbolism for us as an audience, as an audience member, as a public. How we surf and navigate our way through, you know, the cesspool we find ourselves in. Do we trust politicians? Do we trust the clergymen? Do we trust the clergyman do we trust the law enforcement listen this isn't a situation

where it's it's it's one of those things where it's not bleak but it's with eyes wide open tell me about heist movies and why this made sense as a heist movie because i i like what you've done with it it is it feels like there's some homage to previous stuff but there's also it is different it is imperfect in some ways in a way that a lot of heist movies sometimes make too much sense well i think it's about life usually heist movies are usually done with men men are the the main protagonists and there's no there's no room for um and you know um domestic situations like child care or things or dogs or basically taking care of of one's uh environment you know at home home. So I wanted to sort of make a situation where we were looking at all those things

which are not looked at, but which have to be taken care of. And I think the whole idea of a genre picture is up for grabs. There are no rules. A genre, in some ways, is about breaking the rules. Before there was that genre, there was something else. It's got to be about breaking the genre.

It's a fiction. So it's all about breaking the fiction. There are no set rules. If there were set rules, every heist movie would be the same. And some are. Of course, that's why it can be so bloody boring. So my job, in some ways, is to take from that and to move it on or to present a different interpretation of it.

Was there a particular rule that you wanted to break that you felt like we should see in a new way? is to take from that and to move it on or to present a different interpretation of it. Was there a particular rule that you wanted to break that you felt like we should see this in a new way? Again, I think women come into equation. But again, I think also it's one of those things where it wasn't a case of me deliberately wanting to do anything. It was a case of what is it telling me? If I had these people in this scenario, what would happen? Again, it's myself and Gillian saying, scenario, what would happen? Again, it's myself

and Gillian saying, okay, what will happen? What would happen if? What would happen if? I think if you go into a situation like this within writing or thinking or filming

with the idea, I want to do this, I think you'll come up short. It's got to be what if. And that's it, really. This is a masterclass in casting. I'm wondering

how you went about picking the people to be a part of this, primarily Viola, but it, really. This is a masterclass in casting. I'm wondering how you went about picking the people to be a part of this, primarily Viola, but everyone, really. Well, I work with Francine Maisler, who's an amazing cast and director. And the first person who was cast was Cynthia Riva. Francine said, you've got to go to Broadway and see this woman. She's amazing. But she hadn't acted in a film, right?

She had never done a movie before. Well, that's Francine. done a movie before. Well, that's, that's Francine. So I saw her as merely when I saw her, I said, yes. Then,

um, we had a situation with Elizabeth DeBecky. Well, I, I met Elizabeth a long time ago on red carpet somewhere. So some, some place I didn't want to bloody be at, but I was there.

I said, hi, bye. I was like, what am I doing? I was like, I asked, someone asked me to go with them.

I said, yes. And I just, I was regretting it. I mean, nevermind. It happens. Um, what am I doing? I was like, I asked, someone asked me to go with them. I said, yes. And I just, I was regretting it. And I never mind, it happened. So I wasn't thinking of her at all. And then someone told me about her being in some play by Jean Genet

called The Maids with Elizabeth Auper and Cate Blanchett. Apparently she was amazing in that. Just okay, we'll bring her in to audition. So she was amazing at audition. Michelle Rodriguez. Michelle, I wanted Michelle

from day one. I thought, why? She's got, there's some depth in her. There's depth in her. Absolutely. And presence.

In her absence, there's presence. What do you mean by that? On her face, you can read, it's like a silent movie star. You know, those people

were amazing because they became like mirrors you can look at their face and see your own you know you can read them through the through their face i mean people you either have it or you don't i just i'm that's unfortunate for a lot of actors who are extremely good at what they do but if you don't have that it's a little bit more difficult to sort of uh grab people's attention and that's for me she has that and of course um she said no to me at first. No kidding. Yeah.

And then I had to sort of go and meet her. In between that, I auditioned over a hundred women and it wasn't working. And so I went to see her and I was very happy that we met because we had gone like house on fire and that was it. She agreed. And I think she was a bit scared of it, the role as well. I mean, you know,

she did a dramatic role, but, you know, I knew that she could do it. So, you know, again, and then the last one was Viola, who I was talking to some other actresses, I mean, a number of people, and I met her,

and as soon as I opened the door, okay, that was it. End of story. Viola's like an iceberg. The weight, the sort of depth that was it end the story a veil is like an iceberg the weight the sort of depth um you know the gravitas meaning understanding and that again it's another one situation where you can reflect doesn't matter if you're male or female or whatever background you come from you can see yourself in her I think I mean she reminds me of De Niro in a way uh in the 80s and the late 70s where you have this situation of someone who you,

there's a very deep soul and that you instinctively have communication with people. I think what De Niro had and has and had, you know, from say, you know, Godfather 2 to sort of sometime in the sort of mid 80ss when these amazing films were being made was a presence. There was a contemporary presence. I don't know what that means exactly,

but it was very resident. It was very sort of, it was like the dog whistle going off. I can't really translate that into sound, meaning language. I know what you mean though. I understand. It's not unlike Michelle.

You felt him. You felt him. You felt him. There's much more substance as far as sort of a dramatic thrust is amazing. Anyway, going on. There's also a lot of great male actors in this movie, and there's this interesting tension. I'm curious, even just in you talking about the film,

since people have seen it, you have this incredible Daniel Kaluuya performance, Brian Tyree Henry, Colin Farrell liam neeson how do you balance making this story absolutely about the women the women are the center of the story they are the titular characters but then also making sure that everyone that surrounds them who are you know in many ways a threat to them um don't necessarily blot out what their purpose and their goals well Well, it's storytelling, isn't it? I think it's storytelling. I think, you know, again, there's four.

The thing about a heist movie, as soon as you see it in the movie theater and the curtains open and the projector starts running and it starts, the train has left the station. So it's like a roller coaster ride from day one, visually. You know something's going to happen at a certain point. This is how it's going to happen. Then there's the second thing, which is the sort of whole idea of this emotional journey that these women are on. Things have been compressed. Things have been sort of deliberately put upon them in an unfortunate way where they have to act in a state of grief.

So the emotional narrative drive has been accelerated. So there you have the speed then you have the political aspect of the picture how do you put politics in this picture and you need pace let's make us have an election so immediately when you start the picture we're nowhere into into election it basically is a downward spot everything everything is moving fast and downwards then the fourth thing element of it is the music for example is hans zimmer we don't music that music really doesn't the scores really, element of it is the music, for example, is Hans Zimmer. We don't, music, music really doesn't, the scores really start until 45 minutes into the picture. So then you have this thrust, you have this another, another. So basically the movie in

a way it's like a, it's like a, it's like a river. It's like a, firstly it's kind of chicane, then it's a rapid and then it's a waterfall. You know, it's all running downhill. That's the, the momentum of the picture. So the men in the picture are positioned within that. They are a threat, of course, to these women. They are the threat to the women physically. And also, again, they are fighting with each other. I mean, look, criminals, you know, and again, it's dog eat dog.

And these women have no idea about what's actually going on. And that's what makes it kind of interesting for me and beautiful because they have an idea of the danger they're in, but they don't have a real idea of the danger they're in. And the net is closing on them. So that's beautiful for the audience to have that perspective. They are the women and they know what's happening outside, but they're camping the women. They're sort of, you know, they are sort of holding onto the women as a hope while this net is shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. So that's what you have to do.

It's a case of plotting. It's a case of weaving. Myself and Gillian, I think we just write it and throw things out and put it. How do you, it's a wonderful thousand piece jigsaw puzzle. And, you know, boom, you have it. a wonderful thousand piece jigsaw puzzle and, you know, boom, you have it. Oh, wow.

It works. How people interconnect. Sorry, I'm going on. Sorry. No, and there's something really interesting that you do to make that net close in, but even from the very

opening sequences of the movie, you do this intercutting between this originating heist and Viola and it's loud and it's quiet and it's white and it's dark

and I'm wondering when you're conceiving of the movie, do you see things like that? Or is that something that you find later? That I had before. That I had day one. Because I knew we had to get to know when the train leaves the station. We need to know the relationship with those women and their partners at a very early point in the picture. So within eight minutes, seven,

eight minutes, the movie started. It's like, Oh my God. So you're so advanced in your, in, in, in,

in the storytelling that it's sort of, uh, now you can sort of now go on a different change of gears. I think it's, it's exciting. It stimulates the audience and rewards them at the same time. So the beginning is a crest and a slap, a crest and a slap,

and then bang. Won won't tell you what a bang is. Go and see it. But it's that kind of storytelling I think is rewarding and stimulating for the audience. Because it keeps you on your toes and it rewards you. It's like two guys in a pub. Someone tells you a story and you fall asleep. The other one

tells you a story and it's like, oh wow, tell me more. What happens next? But they intercut it. They hold back on something and they bring that one forward. That's, for me, exciting storytelling. This movie does something that is also really interesting which is it shows

a kind of love that we don't see as much in movies. It's an older couple, it's an interracial couple. Was that a really a very purposeful choice? It was a purposeful choice

that these two people were, you know, in love and that, you know, they have a history for sure. The fact they're middle-aged, you know, they, they, they have a history for sure. The fact that middle-aged effect that there's sort of a, of a different background for me was very important.

And they come from Chicago because these people, those people exist. Veronica Rawlins as a character exists in Chicago. She exists in New York. She exists in all big cities in the United States as well as her husband. And we, we know it exists because we as Nordic members

and you and me, we've seen people walk down the street who are middle-aged and mixed-race couples, just as we've seen, you know, two men or two women or heterosexual people walking down the street of the same race. So it's of no big consequence.

But, you know, and I just, my purpose in some ways for sort of basically sort of looking at these two people in that way or bringing these two people together was because I needed to have a situation of the circumstances of the geography of this city where people are rubbing shoulders to each other and people are crossing over. I mean, that's America. Look around. What about the idea of memory? That plays a really big part in the movie,

especially as we get into the second act. How do you conceive of how to put that on screen? Someone thinking about the past and remembering the past, but only in fragmented ways. Well, again, you know, as myself, and that was Joe Walker, the editor, I think, you know, what we love to do is time. It's time.

How do you, with film time, and how you can slip into something and slip out. And it's just exciting, isn't it? To sort of play with time within film and memory. And we do it in our every day. We're walking down the street,

we're thinking of, you know, a loved one. We're thinking of someone who's been in our past. We see something which triggers an idea or memory of the past. And it comes into our present. So basically, it's about bringing the past into the present at the same time moving the narrative on.

Basically, making it exciting. It's textured. Our lives are textured. And to bring it into the form of cinema and to entertain and to sort of stimulate is, I think, is exciting. We've been talking about it. You mentioned Joe Walker. And now this movie, you have kind of a really like a crew that you have worked

with several times Sean Bobbitt Adam Stockhausen Adam Stockhausen Hans Zimmer what's it like now to have this sort of this unit

is it easier to make these films because of that yes I've been working with Sean my DP Sean Bobbitt

for 18 years I've been working with Joe Walker for 11 years I've been working with Joe Walker for 11 years I've been working with Hans for 7 years now

7 years do you all have a shorthand yes yes and also Adam Stockhausen is a beautiful man

actually beautiful guy and Jenny who I just actually met on this picture but she's gonna be with me for life again it's like

it's a band it's a band. It's like bringing a band together and you do it and you do the album and then you do the tour, which is, this is part of it, I suppose. And it's great because you know, you're together, you know how things work

and you get stimulated of each other. And it's wonderful. So you write a song, you bring the song to the band and you start to jam. You know, that's what, it's basically like music. And then after a while,

you get sick of each other and you don't see each other for a couple few years then you start loving each other again and you start making it in the movie someone dropped out this this year was was michael but that has been there but that's how it is i wanted to ask you about what it's like to make a film without him actually good it's okay yeah i love the man but it's like you know he was doing something else at the time and we had some great actors i mean you know i mean with respect to michael I love you, man. But no one missed him. Yeah.

I was curious, just re-watching your films this week, it was kind of noticeable what a profound presence he is in your movies. So it was interesting to see that. But, you know, it's 10 years since Hunger. And I'm wondering how you look back on that experience specifically. And if you feel like you've changed significantly as an artist since then. I changed significantly as an artist since then um i changed as artists and said no i hope not it's a very different sort of storytelling than what we have in widows yeah it's story to technique whatever you know um uh you know if people want to call it more accessible all that kind of stuff whatever but the intention

is always the intention you know i don't care if i've got you know if it's acoustic and now i've gone electric um the intention is always the intention you know you look back at any artist and look at the first picture or the first album the intention is the intention maybe they got more there's more of that say sometimes people grow sometimes i'm not afraid of technology i'm not afraid of how how you tell a story, but the heart of it still remains. And as far as sort of like people like Michael Fassbender is concerned, I love actors. That's my bread and butter.

So, you know, the fact of the matter is, look at Elizabeth DeBecke, look at Viola Davis, look at Michelle Rodriguez, look at Cynthia Erivo, Daniel Kaluuya, Ryan Tyrese Henry, all these guys. I mean, Robert Duvall. I mean, you know, again, Ryan Tyrese Henry, all these guys. I mean, Robert Duvall. I mean, again. He's a fabulous movie.

Exactly. So it's about actors and story and how we tell the story, technique. I love the camera. I love the whole process of making a movie. So it's not one thing or the other, and it's just about how you make the movie time. So, you know, in order to stimulate and to enthrall an audience, it's exciting. Is there someone you really want to work with, being such a lover of actors? Tom Hanks.

Really? Tom Hanks and Denzel Washington. Why? Maybe together. That would be wonderful. Yeah. I just think they're beautiful people. On film.

I just feel that they I just think they've got they've got it haven't they I think they've got America in their pocket I think people listen to them

I think people want to listen to them maybe I'm wrong I don't mean it in a way that they hoodwink the audience or they hoodwink people just that there's

a certain kind of truth that people respond to I think that Denzel and Tom have a certain truth that people respond to. I think that Denzel and Tom have a certain truth which people respond to. And they're lucky to have it. And yeah, I think that they're great.

It's a weird thing about it. I've never said this before, actually. But definitely. And who else? There must be someone else. Well, they have America in their pocket is a phrase I'm going to steal. That's a beautifully put way to describe

their kind of quality as performers. Yes, and I've worked with Verla Davis, who I've always wanted to work with. So that was something like that. Who else? My goodness.

I can't think, but by the end of this interview, I'm going to come up with a name. Okay. I'm wondering, you've now made a few films in America, and is that something

that you think will continue? And what is it about the country that interests you? Well, I'm not new to this. I mean, you've now made a few films in America, and is that something that you think will continue? And what is it about the country that interests you? Well, I'm not new to this. I mean, you know, European directors have been coming to America forever. That is true. I mean, if you want to say, you know, Hollywood is a European base for directors. Absolutely. So I, you know, I'll make a movie in London or Europe,

and I'll make a movie here. So it doesn't really matter, you know. Is there still more here that you're trying to unravel and unpack? No, I think it's one of those things where, you know, majority of my family come from United States, you know,

live here. So the world is not the world that people think, okay, he's from over there. He's got nothing to do with us. It's separate. There's a fluidity, you know,

I, I live here in somewhere in Europe, but I, I, I'm in London and then I'm in LA, I'm in New York, I'm in Berlin, I'm in Amsterdam. There's a fluidity. So it's not a case that nationalism for me doesn't, normally it doesn't exist, but I've always been fluid. I've been coming to the United States with my family since I was seven years old. I was there in 77 when Elvis died and the blackout in New York. So America is a part of me. I went to school here. So America is in my DNA as much as sort of London is. So there's no kind of, you know,

I don't have an American passport, but it's one of those things where it's a fluid situation for me because most of my family live here. Help me figure out how you understand what you're going to do next. How do you make a choice to say? Because when you walked in, you said, oh, you know, storytelling is the most important thing. You know, everybody wants to make a superhero movie here in Hollywood. You've made a different kind of Hollywood movie. What goes into the calculus of your decision making?

Well, I really wanted to make Widows. I just thought I need to see these women on screen because i they do not appear on screen here and i really wanted to make a story which was people hopefully would go and see um because these women deserve a space but also to talk about the environment we currently live in today to make the environment an amusement park in a way to go on this roller coaster ride with them through the trajectory of our immediate environment you know twists and turns the sort of dips and uh you know the sort of the the the loop de loops as such and and to get to the finishing line i mean that for me was exciting so that's the reason why i want to do this this picture for these characters uh because they

never seen before so the next picture for example is you know again i don't know again it's like i love cinema so much and i i love look the thing that really excited me about widows was going to toronto canada going to london going to chicago going to new york coming to la and seeing the audiences respond to the picture there's there's gasps there's laughter, there's cheers. It's a very vocal movie. And I had no idea when I finished the movie. The last ingredients of what, when you finish the movie, of course, is the audience. And you never know how they're going to sort of...

Will you sit in an audience and watch it with people, just a paying audience? I have done, yes. I've done, I've done. And I heard, and actually got reports back on audiences' responses. And it's all the same. It's just the gasps and the cheers and the laughter,

and people are being very vocal, and it's like that's the director's dream. That doesn't happen. Even in a very good movie, again, it doesn't happen. So I was so sort of chuffed to hear those responses from all of these different places in the world. So I thought, okay, well, that's great. Because I don't make movies for 200, 500, 1,000 people. I don't make a movie for someone watching on a laptop.

I just don't. So to have that confirmed, reconfirmed through audience participation, vocal audience participation, was so encouraging. Because that doesn't happen often if at all really so you will be making a film next no TV for you nothing like that

no no I'm going to make TV you're going to make TV I'm going to make one TV thing for BBC but the thing about the BBC is that I love the BBC because

you know it's free and everybody gets a chance to see it so that's different for me but it's not episodic it's not episodical each individual hour

will be very different to the next one so it's not episodic. It's not episodical. Each individual hour would be very different to the next one. So it's not episodic. I'm making a story about the Western community from 1968 to 1986.

There's little stories. Fascinating. What's that called? I haven't got a title for it actually. But as far as next feature film

is concerned, we will see. I've really enjoyed making pictures for broad audiences. So we will see. The way that people watch movies is very interesting to me now. I'm curious, even just in your family, in your home with your children, how do they watch things and consume things? And are you trying to push them in a certain direction

and watch things the way that you did? Well, it's very difficult because it seems kids have so little time because they're doing so many bloody things. Um, and for example, my daughter, I was trying to accomplish my daughter. Now she's just turned 20.

She said the only time her friends go to the movies, if it's kind of a, an event movie, they have to sit in the cinema and said, and said group of people, whatever, but to see a sort of great dramatic picture, they would rather wait until it's out on sort of an on,

on stream it or whatever, you know, it's all, however they could get it. Do you warn against that? Do you say like, go, go see it in the theater.

I need you. I'm a filmmaker support what I do. I do. And it's a better viewing. You have a, it's a better time. And when you know you can't go to the bloody fridge every five minutes, forget something or your phones that ring.

It's a better, it's a different time space when you're watching a, a narrative. It just is. It adds so much. And also when it's big on screen, when the images are bigger than you, so it's sort of, it's projecting onto you. It's very different when you're sort of looking down at something. And in your film, especially the sound is so important. It is so loud. It's so perfect. Yeah, it's great. I mean, again, again, yes, you miss all of that stuff. It's, oh my goodness.

I don't want to talk sad about cinema. I don't want to talk sad about cinema, but I just feel that, well, you know what? I can't blame the audiences. I have to blame the filmmakers. I have to blame myself and other people like us. Other people like me, excuse me. We have to raise our game. There's no two ways about it.

I mean, this medium is, I think, is the best medium in the world. Totally the best medium. So it's up to us to raise our games. We can't blame audiences for their distractions or whatever. If we're only going to have a situation where people see event movies, which is, you know, again, comic book movies and such like, it's a very sad day for cinema. But, you know, what I can say is that we have to raise our game in order to grab the attention of the audience.

Steve, I end every episode by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen? So I'm curious, what is the last great thing that you have seen? I rewatched Some Like It Hot. Oh, yeah. What did you like about that, seeing it again? It's so fast. The pace is unbelievable. 1959, Billy Wilder.

It's so fast. I mean, within 10 minutes, you're on a train going to Florida. It's so fast. And so it's beautiful. It swings. It just swings. And for a movie made in 1959,

it's just so fast. It's so contemporary. So that was very exciting to watch a picture which has this swing. And I'm sorry for this old, old word, but it's so so fast. It's so contemporary. So that was very exciting to watch a picture which has this swing. It's so, and I'm sorry for this old, old word, but it's so groovy. I think Widows is so groovy, Steve. Thanks for doing this. My pleasure. Thank you, sir.

Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture. If you like where we're going with this show, please go to iTunes, rate, review the show, tell us what you like, tell us what you don't like. Hopefully there isn't too much you don't like. And hopefully we'll be able to integrate that more into the future of the show. We'll be back again later this week with a conversation with Stephen Caple Jr. He's the director of a little movie we call Creed II. And then after that, we'll be back to our usually scheduled exit surveys, Oscar shows,

and more interviews with great filmmakers. Tune in then.