The Big Picture - Steven Caple Jr. on ‘Creed II,’ the Rocky Franchise, and Making a Great Sports Movie | Interview (Ep. 101)

Episode Date: November 21, 2018

‘Creed II’ director Steven Caple Jr. joins the show to talk about Sylvester Stallone’s influence on his filmmaking and the 'Creed' franchise as well as the unique challenges of the 'Rocky' legacy. Host: Sean Fennessey Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Shipping is free. Shop now at cavo.com and use promo code big picture for 20% off. That's C-A-A-V-O.com, promo code big picture for 20% off. To me, if people, if there's a conversation about it being as good as creed one i'm stoked if there's people who are like man i it took me back to 86 or blah blah for the nostalgia i've succeeded and

if people feel something that's most importantly man like if people feel something if you walk out of the movie saying you didn't feel anything that's where i feel like I failed. I'm Sean Fantasy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world. As you might imagine, Creed II is a big deal around The Ringer. So I was thrilled to be joined by director Stephen Cable Jr. to talk about the sequel to Ryan Coogler's 2015 installment in the Rocky franchise. Creed II is about Adonis Creed, now a championship boxer,

and his mentor, Rocky Balboa. But it's also about Rocky's nemesis from Rocky IV, Ivan Drago, and Ivan's son, Victor. It's a movie about fathers and sons, legacy, and what happens when you're no longer the underdog. I talked to Cable Jr. about what he learned from Sylvester Stallone, how to rebuild the Drago storyline, and making his own way in a complicated franchise.

Here's Stephen Cable Jr. I'm joined today by Stephen Cable Jr. Stephen, thanks for coming in. Yo, thanks for having me, man. Stephen, you directed Creed II. How did this happen for you? Good question. No, we, I mean, I was writing my own script,

and I was working on a TV show called Grown-ish when I got the call. You know what I mean? I did not have Creed II on a slate or anything like that. It just kind of came out of nowhere. And how it happened was I guess MGM had saw my feature film, The Land, and Ryan Coogler had suggested that they look into me because he was doing Black Panther at the time. And I got a call. These guys responded.

Sly has saw the piece. Michael B. Jordan has. Everybody felt comfortable and good about it. And I didn't necessarily have to pitch myself. Interesting. So you didn't have to come in and say, here's my vision for this movie. No, I definitely did say, here's a vision I have because I got the script and it was from Sly. And then Sly had wrote a draft that had the basic foundation of everything.

But he felt like he wanted to dive deeper into Adonis' life and he wanted to dive Tessa's. And then we're still playing with the Drago's. And so when I got the script, it was like, I have some ideas. You know, when I pitched it to him, they're like, wow, these work. And it's the stuff that you'll see a lot in the film without spoiling it because I don't know when this comes out. No worries. We won't be spoiling it. Yeah.

But so tell me a little bit about your relationship to the Rocky franchise. Were you all in as a kid or is this something that was sort of like new to get started doing? No, not at all. I don't know who has not seen the entire Rocky franchise. There's like once in a while I hear somebody says they haven't. And I'm like, complete shock. Like you haven't seen a Rocky? What? As a kid, as a kid, I guess I'm considered young, but I saw the first one I saw was Rocky five. Oh, wow. That was the first one you saw. That was the first one I saw. That's not

a great place to start. I would say. No, everyone keeps, yeah, today, right? Everybody keeps saying that. And again, I understand why, I guess, as a filmmaker and, you know, being who I am now or where I'm at. But when you're like six years old watching like Rocky V and you see Tommy Gunn and boxing and people in the streets fighting, that thing was cool. You know what I mean? It was just cool to me. And then when I went back, I started backwards. So then I started to go to first one, then second and all that stuff. And then when I did, um, I played sports, I was a basketball player. And so obviously there's like this huge sports connection growing up. So throughout my teenage years, it was just about like motivation. I love the underdog story. Um,

but around 17, 18, you know, 19, starting to go to college, starting to look into film, taking it more seriously. That's when I started to appreciate it for what it is, is art. You know, 19, starting to go to college, starting to look into film, taking it more seriously. That's when I started to appreciate it for what it is, it's art. You know what I mean? I thought Sly and what they did with Rocky I, which is my favorite one, was fascinating, man. I thought it was bold. You know, they tried some really cool things in there. And I was like, wow, you know, a flawed character who's not like, hair pushed back, super suave. He's stuttering.

He's doing this. He felt human, you know. And I'm like, oh, that's why I felt so connected to this character human you know and I'm like oh that's why I felt so connected to this character you know and so I thought that was really cool

you have this unusual burden with this movie where you have the legacy of the Rocky franchise and then you also have the burden of Creed which I think kind of caught some people

by surprise and became you know quite a big hit and very quickly I think a beloved movie so how do you negotiate like you've got

old school fans over here. You've got this new generation of fans over here. And you've got to do right by both of these stories. So how do you manage that? I think it kind of starts within, man, by being a fan. You know what I mean? I had to pull back when first stepping into the project as a filmmaker. Just step back.

You know what I mean? And just look at it and appreciate what did I like about the Rockies that I love. Rocky 1, Rocky II, Rocky IV, what moments in there that I really want to pull from. But just connect, just to connect and then go to Creed I, what did I really like about Creed I, what touched me, what moved me, what felt like it was impactful or made it what it was. And then start to approach it more like a filmmaker.

All right, what will audiences want to receive? How can I put this within the script that has this sort of format that Sly already created? And so when diving into it, trying not to spoil much with the script, but when diving into it, then you start to play into pieces of what do you think people will like, you know, and then find those moments where you could be yourself. I call it flexing, you know, be able to pull the flexing muscle. I'm like, all right, this is me. This is where I'm going to put my own personal touch to the film, to these characters' lives,

and to how I'm going to visually tell these stories. I mean, these fight scenes, which was huge and important. And so you kind of have to like, again, go backwards and go to like that basic instinct of like, if I was a moviegoer, I like Creed 1 so much. That way you're not caught up into, if you go straight to filmmaker mode, then you can just be trying to do something totally different and not respecting the audience who loved Creed 1 and the Rocky franchise,

if that makes sense. It does make sense. I mean, did you watch other boxing films, other sports movies? Yeah, yeah. What did you watch beforehand? No, no, no. You have to go outside of the Rocky. I think Sly has created a really cool formula in science

that makes this whole thing work. But I think for us, myself and another writer named Joel, I started watching karate flicks, fighting in Thailand, all stuff like that to incorporate ideas to keep it fresh. You know what I mean? You know, you go to even the Van Damme moments, like when was his most down-out moment? When he's blind, he can't see, and he's like, ah. Yeah, yeah. Like those are the things that like, you know, are down-out moment? When he's blind and he can't see and he's like, ah! Yeah, yeah. Like, those are the things

that, like, you know, are riveting and, like, get you excited during a fight. And so, you find these moments

and then try to transfer them into boxing. So, you're saying there's some blood sport in Creed 2. Definitely,

there's some blood sport in Creed 2. I think there's a bit in all of them. I think you have to find, like, the arcs within the fight scene and stuff like that. And then for the drama, I just pulled into my personal life.

I'm married. You know, these guys mature and grow up in their relationship, Bianca and Adonis. And I just want to find out, like, what are the real moments? You know, what are people going to connect to? Like I said, I connected to Rocky and his flaws in the first, in the first, right, in the Rocky franchise. So now stepping into Creed,

I connect to how real and authentic these characters are and the drama that they're going through and the fact that they're black characters to keep that voice alive too.

So, yeah, you know, I find those moments. I'm curious how you balance the tone of the movie, right? Because you have these

really intimate moments with Adonis and Bianca and then obviously you have the fight scenes and there's a really high tension high energy they're very physical what's it like kind of toggling back and forth between those two things it was tough man to be totally honest with you um because again you're pulling from like the rocky four esque of the world and this is a sequel and then you're like i don't want to be too cartoonish i don't want to be too commercial this is not a money grab this is actually it's still sort of a

passion project you know for everyone on board so you try to treat those moments with respect and make sure they're in the film. But it was really tough, man. I mean, on set, we had this thing called the cheese meter. No, legit. You know, we had definitely had this cheese meter thing going. Who's controlling the gauge on that? All of us, because we all would step out of line. We had to. You know what I mean? I think with a film like this, you know,

there's definitely times where me and Dolph were like, dude, we're bringing back Drago, right? And he knew, he's like, I don't want to be like the Drago I was in Rocky IV. I want to be this new age Drago. And so we had this meter

and I would go cross it and then Dolph would look at me like, I don't know, that felt a little weird. I was like, did I go too cheese on it? He's like, probably, but we have to go there in order to know if that makes sense.

And then the same with him. He'll go somewhere. All his lines are in Russian in this movie. The dude did a great job. And he'll perform. He'll be like, was that a little bit too expendables? Was that a little bit too? And I'll be like, it may have been.

It may have been. Let's pull it back just a little bit. But we have to go there because there's also another level of the audience that wants that you know and so it's like we're trying to get right at that edge without being over the top if that makes sense and we had it for everybody you know ever from uh mike you know coming off of killmonger he had one you know so everybody had this sort of meter tessa didn't need it much tessa actually, actually, now thinking about it, never had this kind of, but Tessa, she was on point with herself, man. She was in tune, you know, and none of her scenes

felt like it needed it, you know what I mean? There were times where, like, we're doing a lot with her growth and her reduction, her hearing loss, and so there would be times where we felt like maybe we've done too much with it, but Tessa is, she's one, she's fierce, man. She has so much, her feature's

going to be insane. She's just a dope actress, man. And then on set, she just brought something totally fresh to every scene. And yeah, but we didn't have a cheese meter with her. Everyone else, we definitely did. I've never, I've not realized that until now. I'm like, man, shout out to Tessa. One of my favorite things about the movie is everything you do with the Drago story I think there's like a really smart and clever the way that you position their family inside this movie you know how much of that comes from right ahead of time Sly knows that he wants to have this direct connection of four and then how do you then kind of because you have to build really the world of the Dragos too and Russia and this

complicated thing so you know without spoiling it how do you start to build their world as well? Yeah, no, I think, uh, first great question. Um, cause Rocky definitely, or Sly, Sly Rocky, Rocky Sly definitely had like the format and he knew what people would want. Ultimately his ideas was to bring back the Drago's. And so when he had delivered the script, I think for us was like trying to add that backstory to it, you know, but still paying attention to rocky four where they were at so we watched like our first few meetings it was me and slide we would watch clips on youtube of the movies you know i mean rocky four rocky three and then i remember at the end of rocky four um there's a moment where rocky's doing his iconic

speech if i could change you could change we could we could change, right? And Dolph, or Ivan Drago, sorry, was in the corner and his head was down. And he no longer had Russian support. You weren't sure where Lumila stood in all this. And it was just an interesting image.

And I was like, dang, that tells a lot. You know, usually after every Rocky movie, hey, good job, man. Respect this, that, and the other, right? The two just come together. That movie didn't do it. And I was like,

and so that image stuck out to me and I was like, we can actually create a lot of backstory from his image. Like, without giving away too much, where does he start? Is he living in Russia?

Is he not? You know, that's where you start the questions. Then you just build, you know, to where we got, to where we are now. And then beyond,

by building from that moment, that kind of already gave Drago some layers just because of where he was at, you know, and emotionally that was the first time he felt any emotion out of the whole Rocky four, you know, he was a robot, a cyborg,

if you will. And then at one moment he had his head down and he was like, wow, you felt sorry for him just a bit. So how do we ride that? It's amazing to make him kind of a little bit of an underdog in the story, even though his son is a, son is kind of a killing machine. Yeah, he's less revenge as more as he's being desperate.

You know what I mean? Desperate to redeem himself. And he's using his son. You know what I mean? And right there, that alone, that pitch alone, there goes the dynamic. You can see how that can be dark. You can see how does the son feel about it. Are they seeing eye to eye?

Honestly, all stuff that I even pull from personal life, again, because, again, I play basketball. My dad was very hard on me on playing ball. He's an All-American and stuff like that, going off to college, you know, and everywhere I would go growing up, they would talk about how good he was. And so he was very adamant about me playing basketball to the point where I didn't even like to play basketball anymore. You know what I mean? And now I love it. I mean, I watch it all the time huge LeBron James fan obviously um but nice time to be in LA nice time to be in LA so I can watch the games um but you know it gets to the point where it doesn't feel good anymore and and that's and I just started

exploring that you know how did I feel and that relationship became so organic now you know felt real watching it on screen. And for the first time at the premiere, I felt that and Rocky's situation without spoiling it. Because there's a big father theme in this. And I just got emotional just watching it for the first time at the premiere because I've been so close to it. So now I'll be able to pull back a little bit and watch it with a real audience. I felt like an audience member. And I was like, whew, this is kind of tough for me to watch.

I didn't realize I put so much personal stuff in it subconsciously, which is kind of scary. Yeah, the Fathers and Sons theme is run throughout the series, but this movie in particular, it is really cute. Tell me about working with Sly. So Sly is the kind of author of this franchise. He's also a performer in the movie and co-writer of this movie yeah is it complicated to kind of you know modulate what you want to do versus what he wants

to do how do you direct him as a director while he's an actor how yeah no not necessarily um i mean that's why he brought me onto the project he said he wanted me to to capture these guys voices um is as honest as that. You know, I remember coming in and I'm like, dude, you're backing down. I can't speak to the generation. You speak to the generation

of like, you know, the Adonis Creed's and Bianca's of this world. So that was already there. Everything else, like the format, just being a fan and listening,

I felt like I was learning a lot. You know, talking to Ryan Coogler, stepping into it, he's like, man, make sure you listen to Sly because dude has gems.

You know, he's the OG. He's the godfather of this fight stuff. so he was very helpful in a sense of, like, trying to execute day, or moments, or, you know, explaining Rocky and his process to me, so I understood that he goes into Rocky mode, he's not Rocky automatically, like, he turns into Rocky on set and in his trailer, and every day before we would shoot, 20 minutes, everybody's setting up. I walk through the set. You guys are doing this. We will shoot this way, blah, blah, set up these lights. The actors will be out in 20. I'm going to go talk this lie in this trailer. And then we'll just talk about the scene and just break down moments. Because a lot of his stuff when he's on set, he improvs.

You know what I mean? He'll write down a lot. He'll write down some gym lines that are really good, but then on set he'll do things with his hands, with the ball. That's just like magic. And for me, my job is not to stand in a way of that. You know, for me, it's to give him a nice comfort zone for him to be rocky, lay out some things, lay out a map, guide him. But ultimately he knows the scene we've talked about in the trailer. If there's a scene he doesn't like or if there's a scene it's not in the movie, we don't shoot it or we don't write it. So before even going on set, we have a general idea. Script-wise, he's very open. I mean, for him, Sly is a cool dude, very smart.

He's also a filmmaker. We forget he's directed before, you know, so for him, it was very much like, hey, these are the three things I would love to keep during this next draft of your past. And I'm like, those three things I wanted to keep anyway. So it just was like, this is perfect. You know, and then as I created it, you know, just back and forth what ideas because he's a co writer on it. And so I'll be like desert montage. I want to do this to any other. Oh, actually, boxers really do this to any other check out this fight. And so it was like that, Desert Montage, I want to do this, that, and the other. Oh, well, actually, boxers really do this, that, and the other. Check out this fight. And so it was like that kind of conversation all the time. Beyond that, man, I was just surprised that dude was punctual. He's always on time. No, legit. I thought he was going to come in like real superstar mode. I thought he was going to be like flying into my jet on the day we shoot, fly back to L.A.

Nah, he just like, he hung out, man. And again, a dude at his age, he looks great. He's super in shape. You just get impressed. Like you get impressed by like how passionate he is about the project. I'm always amazed by his ability to kind of lock into this character in this movie too. I'm like, man, he's so good. It's scary, man.

On set. Like, cause again, I, in my head, I think Sly is Rocky, right? Or grown up or like Rambo, like the super. And then you meet him, you're like, oh, this dude's like, he's cool. Like he's still with all this stuff. He's still down to earth. And like to see him kind of like he was so excited about going back to Philly because we were doing all our stuff here in L.A. before I left. So all the researchers here would go to Philly.

And then he's like trying to take in the cold, you know. And I always say like he's rocking side to side. Every time he comes on set, he starts bouncing his ball. He starts being funny, like really over the top funny, getting into Rocky mode. And then like, you know, me realize like, this is his process, you know? You have to appreciate it, you know what I mean?

Because usually I'm like, in my head, you know, he's the cool guy who's like cliffhanger and demolition man and all that movies pop he had. But to see him still have a process to get into this character that he's been for so long and trying to find new ways, I don't know, new chapters in Rocky life. That's what's the toughest part. It's trying to find out what Rocky has not gone through yet. But I think he keeps attacking this project as if this is his dramatic role. This is beyond the rambles of the world

and the expendables and the escape plans and all these commercial pieces. When he comes back to this, you can tell this is his baby. So I think it's one of those, if I respect him and the work and the craft, he respects me and we kind of just work. We just go at it and try to find new ways. Pretty fun. In terms of the size and the scope and the craft. He respects me and we kind of just work. We just go at it

and try to find new ways. Pretty fun. In terms of the size and the scope of the movie, this is bigger than your first movie, The Land. It's way bigger than the first movie. So I want to talk about that.

What did you not know you didn't know when you started making this movie? What surprised you? Just the amount of days. I thought having more days on set, this is technical, but having more days on set this is technical but having more days

on set is helpful man we shot for 52 days on this project how long was the land the draining the land was 18 it went two days on the weekend

20 days you know we kind of went out there and just shot some stuff with the boys and the skateboarding sequences that you see yeah you know

a little film school action a little film school action but I was running full days no full crew. That was just me, the cameraman, and the kids. Not even kids, the leads. But no, ultimately, you step into a project like this, how big it is in a sense of how your set is enormous.

So it's like you have to really convey and make sure. I mean, you did it in the short films in your first feature, but that every department understands the vision. So it's like, it's no longer me in a meeting with 10 people anymore. It's me in a meeting with like 60 people. You know, it's big, huge conference room where you're trying to get across.

Every department takes so much time and then you're on set and then you're going for 50 days strong. You get tired, man. It's exhausting. Your boxing matches first, this, that, and the other, the drama. They're tired and you don't see these obstacles really coming. Beyond that, I never done visual effects before.

That was fresh for me. So trying to learn a lot about visual effects and storyboarding, that was intense because it takes up so much time and it's supposedly supposed to save money rather than getting real people. But at the back end of it all, it all like it compresses time. So I had to shoot and edit my fight scenes first, you know, before you can even really finish the film. So you're turning over stuff with this kind of deadline so people can, you know, get good visual effects at the end of it. That was really tough. So it was a lot of that. And then beyond that, dealing with actors is still the same.

You know, finding out cool shots is still the same as a short film or commercial or music video. Those elements, those basic fundamentals

of filmmaking stay the same. And I think there's definitely points where I was like, I'm going to just forget visual effects, forget everything else and kind of just focus in on this

because that allows you to focus on what's important. And Sly would say it all the time because there's definitely moments where I would get caught up in fights, you know what I mean, because I'm like, oh, everybody wants a good fight, so I'm like, fight, fight, fight, fight, how to be innovative, and Sly, literally, while we're shooting the fight scene, be like, hey, remember, man, like, the fights are important, but no one's going to care as long as they don't care about the characters, like, you know, you don't have to worry about getting the perfect shot, the punch doesn't have to be perfect, this don't have to worry about getting a perfect shot the punch doesn't have to be perfect this doesn't have to be perfect and me in my head i'm like it has to be perfect like slides here mike's here i have to give him everything and they'll be like nah dude like we'll

we'll figure it out later but like most importantly with us it's like making sure that that story's there so it's about the corners that's what i learned it's about the corners between the rounds what's being said and now it's trippy because he was right it was about the corner moment that's so interesting because I was going to ask you about the fights and sort of like how much of the fight design

is on the page and how much of it is when you're actually shooting and saying like well actually this isn't going to work the way I thought it would I got to change it up like this did you have to

be flexible with that stuff yeah completely I mean we tried to write down me and Joel well Sly has a different approach Sly Sly writes down almost like every single punch you know what I mean a montage on a fight like it's crazy how much detail

he'll write down on paper you know so you'll be reading a script and you feel like it's super long but you realize those 10 pages of a montage are really just like the progression and he's showing speaking about it punch by punch weight by weight so when we did it we kind of gave this vague general story idea for the fight sequences. Like this person goes down, there's a moment here, he rises up, he looks to his mom, whatever. And on set or during choreography,

when you start to put the choreography together, you realize like those big moments needs small meat in between each of it. So you're adding a little bit more punches here, a little bit more choreography here. And to the point where we have multiple fights in our film a lot, you know, Andre Ward and we have to shoot all of Victor Drago stuff because he doesn't have real footage. So we have to go and react. So all that stuff gets tough because it's all choreography. Definitely changes on the day.

You know, we'll go to the set and all of a sudden, you know, when we place the camera in the ring with the guys, it's making it a little tougher. Can you guys do a right hook, left hook instead? Or one, two here and back up and we'll go into the ropes. So it's a breathing thing. Then a lot of stuff was shifting because of injuries too. Oh, wow. You know, Victor got injured twice. He was sent to the hospital twice.

Had a medic on set. What's that like when that happens on your set you have to just stop the set you know you gotta make sure they're okay you know what I mean with Victor it was interesting

because he was new and so he would try to fight through it to not slow up the process he was nervous that he would slow up the set you know

and he's an athlete too yeah he's like I have to give it all I have and if he's injured he'll try to hide no I'm okay because he's looking at all of us Like you know

It's a lot of pressure On a project And we just Again me Especially Mike himself We have to go to him Like dude If you need time

To catch your breath You need a break If you need to not Do fighting for today Speak up You know what I mean Because we're here for you Like we'll stop the set

And if we do Which we had to do a few times I'll stop the set And go to the corner moments, you know, go with slides that was most important. So if you guys are tired, we'll make up a corner moment. We'll go actually shoot something that's scripted. I'll go focus on the people in the audience really quick for the day, you know, as you recover, cause we can't waste a day, but we'll find a way to get around it. So that's something I didn't expect. That's something that I just kind of learned as I was doing the project and being like, wow, you have to have a plan A and a plan B. But then there's also like C, D, you know what I mean?

Just in case these two don't work out. Do you think you'll be bringing that to projects in the future? That kind of like level of not necessarily improvisation, but just flexibility? I'm going to try to. This is when I try to be as planned as possible. but in the land it was a lot of flexibility it was like i was just kind of open with this a smaller project it's all about chemistry um in the future yes i think i definitely will try to bring i think i would try to have more plans so to speak if that makes sense like there's a plan a plan b but like as i said as we kind of go through it i'm gonna try to see

everything from every angle like from injuries from, from what's worst, worst, worst case scenario. Because there's definitely moments where I was like, damn, we can't even shoot corner moments because I didn't think you have to get taken to the hospital. So now I'm like, I can't even shoot a corner if I wanted to with them. So it's like stuff like that, that I haven't necessarily planned for. And yeah, you know, you just learn a lot, you know, during the process. And again, for me, having Sly and Mike, they've done this before, super helpful, you know, especially with Sly. Like Sly could see things a mile away because he's injury before it even happened. You know, he was like, Flo, you know, he's going hard with that right. Like he's trying to do a hook with a right, which is not right. You know, he's going to hurt himself. You know, let's calm it down.

So I'm like, Flo, we're taking away. He's out of the choreography. Somehow he'll still get hurt. And I'm like, Sly has that kind of instinct because he's done this eight times. You know what I mean? And he's been injured several times. So that's all helpful. And then there'll be moments where he's like, because again, multiple fights, you know, he's calling it on Mike's knee.

You know what I mean? He's like, Mike can't jump around like Apollo Creed could because his knee's going to hurt. You know what I mean? He's carrying more weight this go around because he gained more weight for the fight sequences. Completely right. By the time we got to the next fight, his knee was hurting. He's carrying more mass during the fight. I don't think about that stuff. You know what I mean? Like I'm worried about like story and making day, but I'm like, yeah, he's like, you know, there's going to be

certain things he can't move like Apollo. If you want him to move like Apollo in round three, because Apollo was fast on his feet and moving around. So you might want to shoot round three first. So that way then I'm like, oh, cool. Didn't think like that. That makes so much sense. You know, it's like you have a living cheat sheet with you or something. No, completely. Completely, man. So what was actually really fun about making this? What did you most enjoy doing? All that that I just explained? Well, I mean, that sounds hard.

No, to be honest with you, it was being a fan without spoiling much. It was a lot of nostalgia moments that we brought back that was really exciting because I got excited. You know what I mean? The moments with tessa and mike felt really special to me um that was fun because their chemistry on set so live and going from the land which was um unknown actors for the most part are newcomers you don't get much room to play if that makes sense like you're trying to you're staying to get to the script a bit, having these moments where they're organic

and flow and, you know, they improv, but you don't want to lose what makes them them because then they'll start acting as newcomers and you don't want

that to ever happen. And only 18 days. Yeah, you only have 18 days. So with this one, Mike and Tessa are so pro, I have to play a lot, you know,

with scenes, you know, to the point where I was maybe having too much fun. Because that's my favorite part is working with actors, working with Florian. That was fun because I got to create their world. Creed world was set up in Creed 1. Drago world has not been set up yet.

So from the opening scene to the end of playing with the colors, the tone, the feel, shots, mood, all was an exciting process. You know, they're dynamic with each other. How raw we want to get, like MGM, thanks to them and Sly and Mike gave me that freedom to like, you know, just do what I need to do. Like it was on the page and anything I created that wasn't on there with these guys were like magic and opportunity to show that Dolph can act in a dramatic role or do something different was really fun to me. It was a fun challenge.

We always hear these stories about Dolph that he's in Mensa and is a genius and there's been pieces written about him over the years, but he doesn't often get the chance to really perform like this. It's a real acting performance. No, completely, man. We were going through stuff.

He was showing me Marlon Brando clips. I was showing him clips of Raging Bull. We're going into the depths of this character, and he was excited because it wasn't comic book. We weren't going to comic book films. We were going to dramatic roles. And so he was excited about that. And he is smart, man.

He's really intelligent. I don't know if you met him yet. I haven't met him, no. Dude, wait till you meet him. First of all, he's excited about that. And he is smart, man. He's really intelligent. I don't know if you met him yet. I haven't met him, no. Dude, wait till you meet him. First of all, he's the nicest guy. And he's tall and handsome, obviously. But he's desolate. And you're like, damn, this dude is huge, man.

And then he starts talking like, this dude is a teddy bear, man. Like a really intelligent teddy bear. And he was very open to everything. And he speaks like six languages. Russia is not one of them. So we had to learn Russian out of all languages. That's the one he had to learn because that's how he started his career off. It's wild.

But no, he's just a really, really genuine guy, man. Tell me about Russia because obviously the timing of Rocky IV was very important. And obviously there's a lot going on between U.S. and Russia now. And that's a part of this story. How much did you feel like you could lean into that? And how much did you think that might distract from the movie you're trying to make? I leaned into it just enough to add to the character's arc. I didn't want to be political by any means.

And in 86, 85, when they did that, I guess that was an appropriate time. That was the tone of that era when it came to movies and what was being displayed for us. Sly didn't touch into it in his first draft. And if he didn't see it, I'm like, perfect. Cause I didn't want to, that was one of my concerns when stepping into the project. Are we going to really tap into that right now? Does it feel like propaganda? Does it feel like we're leaning heavy on this just because of the times when these characters are so rich, when we have so much more to play with, when there's a different way to make

a statement about these guys being on screen? And we just took a different approach. I think for me, where I'm at in my life, where Sly's at, where Mike, with all the stuff going on with this project, we wanted to really capture the human side and um and i said this before just like the love of everything like just we don't need any more negativity and i didn't really want to jump into that you know i was trying to figure out a way to start with that and with love and what's more important like as cliche as it sounds i feel like that's what we all kind of need right now um i didn't want to i didn't want people to go to the movies on thanksgiving and feel like they're something's being shoved down the throat of like the bad guys of Russia versus the great

America. I was like, nah, nah, I want you to think about something totally different, like family and your son and your mother and your father. Like those are things that really stuck out to me. Um, your wife, you know, so I don't know. We just, the press and critics have brought it up and during questioning and, and, but we've never talked about it, if that makes sense. We're kind of like, nope, we're good. You know what I mean? If that's the route you guys want to think we're going to let them take it, for us, we're like, let's focus on these people, man. I want to focus on where I'm at in my life, how I need to reconnect with certain people, the guilt trips I have after being at this age and not talking to a lot of people throughout my life because of whatever,

that's a real life thing. How do we put that into Rocky? Those were our conversations. Nobody was like, let's talk about where Putin is and this, that, and the other and how to make this character like him completely out the window. It was like, nah, it didn't feel right. It wasn't my agenda.

It wasn't no one's on a project. Damn, it is ironic the fact that it is happening now it's why i ask you know it's inevitable totally fine like i mean we get it i knew that that question was going to be asked and it should you know i i just love when people go to the theater and they say they're surprised that it's not you know that that's that's great you know and i thought you guys were gonna go that route and like no it's a lot more story we could cover yeah and like i, I feel like the Drago family, that's one of the strengths of the movie, actually, the way that you've positioned it.

And you could have made it more cartoonish by trying to make it this sort of arch-villainy, completely nationalistic thing. And then I would need more time if I wanted to go deep into the politics of it all and all that. But we do know that they need a Russian boxer and they need a show. You know what I mean?

Those are real-life things. And that was easy to apply with a story like this. But no, I didn't tap into it. What is success for you on this now? This is a bigger movie. Yeah. There's box office expectation. Are you reading the reviews?

Like, how do you manage to identify what is success for you? Yeah, I don't read the reviews. I don't. Didn't do it on my last one. Even though you got good reviews on your last one. I did. I did. Wife my last one even though you got good reviews on your last one I did I did wife would tell me

they're looking good this one I am out of like the email chains they send like a blast with all the reviews good or bad or who's saying what

what are the focus are and you know publicist is like do you want to be on it I was like nah I just kind of want to be in the moment to be totally honest with you

because this is I came from kid from Cleveland, Ohio. Came out here to pursue this. Did my first feature. Everything's kind of happened so fast. You know what I mean? Just turned 30 during this project. And so really

I was like, let me just try to take in these moments. I just did a movie with Sylvester Stallone and Michael B. Jordan and Tessa Thompson and Dolph Lundgren. That's insane to me. Felicia Rashad. Look up to her. She's like amazing. Let me try to live that. I don't know. I don't get caught up in it.

I don't. Even when the trailer dropped, there's like tracking things. I think the studio gets worried when I'm not looking at that. I'm like, did you see this? I'm like, I didn't. I'm sorry. I'm enjoying a conversation with you or talking about the film and the things I try. When the movie drops i'll

be in africa so i'm gonna see how i'm gonna be with mike so mike loves tracking stuff down mike is like the guy he's aware he's totally aware he's aware of everything man he's a producer on this one too so um he's deaf he's aware of it all man like it's gotta be easy for him when you keep making hits though i feel like he's on this unbroken streak. Showboat enough. No, I think he also has a business hat, his business side to him, too, man, which I admire because I feel like there's a part of me that needs probably needs to be more like that, too. But I solely lean heavily on just like, again, being in a moment, trying to be an artist and work on the craft that he's looking at it from the business angle a lot, whereas I don't, you know, so going into this project, um, I don't know, the opening weekend, there's pressure, uh, obviously, is it going to be as good as the first one? What critics are going to say? Um, I hope it does well,

but honestly, to me, if people, if there's a conversation about it being as good as Creed I, I'm stoked. If there's people who are like, man, it took me back to 86 or blah, blah, blah for the nostalgia, I've succeeded. And if people feel something, that's most importantly, man. If people feel something, if you walk out of the movie saying you didn't feel anything, that's where I feel like I failed. I mean, we can make so much money, it could be insane. But if people say they haven't felt anything, That would hurt me, I guess, the most, because I was like, I put a lot into it. And like I said, there's a little personal tidbits in there

with the fathers and stuff like that that I feel like are true. And so, I don't know, I just hope people relate to the characters enough to they want to see a Creed III and Creed IV because they're willing to ride with them. I don't know, that's a fine success for me. I don't know what else would. I don't know. I like how you put him. I don't know. That's a fine success for me. I don't know what else would. I don't know. I like how you put that.

We saw what Coogler did after Creed 1. Coog, yep. How do you figure out what you're going to do and what your next moves are? No, my next move could be anything, man. To be totally honest with you, I'm not trying to... I don't need to do a big Marvel movie if one comes about great.

You know what I mean? But I have to fill with the character. Like, that was part of doing Creed. You know, I didn't want to do Creed because of my worries of, like, are they still going to stay true to the foundation of what this franchise was held by? So I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to jump into a big project unless I feel like they are allowing me to do what I need to do to make the project feel me. You know, and it could be a smaller thing, too. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not mad at doing something small, you know, as long as I feel like there's a story to be told.

I don't necessarily know. There's stuff that I'm working on. I was working on, you know, this Wendell Scott project was about the first African-American NASCAR driver. I was writing that before I got picked up for Creed. There's another project that I'm working on with the writers who helped me with Creed 2, Joelle and Tony, called Buy All, that we've been working on. I guess a press release was announced last week, a couple days ago maybe? I'm confusing my days. By Legendary.

That project is a nice little passion project that's totally different. For me, I feel like it's timely. For me, I feel like if I dive into it now, either one of those projects, it feels satisfying, I guess, on another level, on an artistic level. I'll talk to Mike B

and see if it's smart on a business level. Brother, you need to get into this Marvel world. What do you mean? Hit me up like, Killmonger comes back alive. We can go over here. I can do anything. Hilarious. Because they're looking at that dude.

Every time I look up, I feel like it's like Michael B. He's supposed to be in this movie. It's a super. It was a couple weeks ago. We were talking about Superman or something. I was like, Mike, what is this talking about Superman or something. I was like, Mike, what is this? I'm not really chasing money.

I don't care, really. If it's there, it's there because there's only a few Marvel movies that I'm feeling good about, you know what I mean? Or I can't keep saying Marvel because I feel like

that's the go-to right now, but tempo films that I feel good about, that whole wheat and value to me that I'll watch again, that just, you know, was different.

And it had filmmakers behind it who had a voice. The Last Thor, I thought, was really interesting. You know what I mean? I love that one. You know what I mean? You gotta talk to Taika on this show. His first films, oh my god, boy, bro, he's amazing. So there you go, there's a dope filmmaker. Ryan, what he did with Black Panther. I actually liked Infinity Wars my God, boy. Oh, that's, bro, he's amazing. So there you go.

There's a dope filmmaker, Ryan, what he did with Black Panther. You know what I mean? I actually liked Infinity Wars a lot too. I just saw it on a plane. It's very good. No, I was tripped out. People were taking people out.

I was like, what's happening right now? Is this real? But the stakes were alive. And I don't know, man, if something like that fell on my lap, maybe. I wouldn't be mad at it. I just have to start looking into the universe more and seeing what's up. But all the big movies feel like they're just remakes or something that's part of an IP for my comic books or something like that.

So just very few movies that are, if you saw the Buy All thing, it was touching basically to film Collateral, which is like a drama. But yeah, it's very suspenseful. You know, stuff like that. That's like one of my favorite films. You love that movie here. I love that film. And so this next piece, I'm separating myself, I guess. I'm trying to create my own lane. Steven, we end this show every week by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen.

We're talking about movies. So what is the last great thing you've seen? A Quiet Place. Yeah. What'd you like about that? I love The Quiet Place, man. That was like, it was filmmaking. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, one, I love horror films, by the way. We talk horror films all day. I'd like to see your horror film. I would like to see your horror film, too, if I could find one. I'm also scared of it, too, because I'm like, possession and exorcism are like the ones that really scare me. And I'm like, man, if I stepped into that, I don't know if I want that kind of spirit in my life.

Um, but yeah, quiet place, man, everything they did with sound and, and, and, and visuals and,

um, uh, the performances were on point and it was simple. The simple ones always work really well, man. Like, like, um,

and then they had character development from the jump and they took they shocked you from the beginning i remember being in theater i'm like this is how you make a movie you know what i mean like this feels really good to me there's no yes it's commercial yes it's considered a horror film but like when you look at it for its artwork it's really good ironically enough the last one that was good like that was get out which was also kind of a horror genre but i guess there's this blend of like the horror genre mixed in with like these messages that make for the really good ones. Because the horror genre and the suspense drop will keep you on your toes. But then when you find the character development, now you actually care.

You have a great film, you know, where it's hard to find that combination. A lot of these films, suspenseful films are still caught up in the hype and the concept and not the people in it. And that one, like, I really felt like the father theme, like, you know what I mean? Like trying to protect your family. And I guess it's also something that I'm probably growing into as I mature and get older.

But damn, it was good. That's probably, and I saw that a while ago, but I haven't had a chance to really go to the movies. And to be honest, I want to see Widows if I can before I, before our movie comes out. That's a good one. I'll recommend that one to you, Steven.

I haven't seen it yet. Thank you very much for doing this, man. I appreciate it. No, thank you, man. Congrats on Creed 2. Thank you. Thanks again for listening

to this week's episode of The Big Picture. Please tune into the show next week when I'll be joined by the great Shea Serrano, host of The Villains podcast. Subscribe to that if you haven't. He and I will be breaking down Creed II in great detail. And then after that, we'll have a new episode of The Oscar Show with Amanda Dobbins. So please tune in then and have a great Thanksgiving.

Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by CAVO. We'll see you next time. and shipping is free. Shop now at cavo.com and use promo code BIGPICTURE for 20% off. That's C-A-A-V-O dot com promo code BIGPICTURE for 20% off.