The Big Picture - Steven Spielberg's Top 5 Movies With Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan | The Big Picture (Ep. 57)

Episode Date: March 30, 2018

In preparation for Steven Spielberg's ‘Ready Player One,’ The Ringer’s Sean Fennessey and Chris Ryan discuss and debate the prolific filmmaker's best movies of all time. They cover everything from ‘Jaws’ to ‘Jurassic Park,’ from the ‘Indiana Jones’ series to ‘Saving Private Ryan,’ and many, many more (1:00). And later, CEO of The Ringer Bill Simmons stops by to give his take on how terrifying 'Jaws' was and Spielberg's career (43:00).Ringer web store Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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to install, patch or upgrade here. It's just go to squarespace.com and you can get a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use the offer code big picture to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And be sure to stick around on this episode of The Big Picture. First, I'll be talking with my colleague, Chris Ryan, and then a bonus segment will be coming about Steven Spielberg with the podfather himself, Bill Simmons, my boss and yours. E-T. Home Phone E.T. Phone Home

E.T. Phone Home E.T. Phone Home You're gonna need a bigger boat. Snake in the plane, Jacques! Oh, that's just my pet snake, Reggie! I hate snakes, Jacques! I hate them! My dear Dr. Sattler, welcome to Jurassic Park. I am the president of the United States of America, clothed in immense power. You will procure me these votes.

I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting podcasters in the world. Yes, I'm joined today, clothed in immense power, Chris Ryan. Chris, thanks for joining me. No, no, no! Oh my goodness, the energy is high, and it's high because it's Ready Player One Day, Steven Spielberg's newest film, an interesting movie, and one that Chris hasn't seen, but I have seen. But we're not here to talk specifically about Ready Player One. We're here to talk about the top five Steven Spielberg movies of all time, and maybe some

of the worst. Chris, thank you for doing this. It's my absolute pleasure. Chris, before we get too deep into it, give me just your nutshell description of your relationship to Steven Spielberg. It's my film school. So the reason I love Steven Spielberg is that he makes these mass entertainments, but literally taught me the power of lighting, of camera movement, of composition,

of visual storytelling, of the way you can use music to trigger an emotion, the way you can use editing to heighten or lower the tempo of a film, how to tell stories in a distinctly cinematic way. And I don't think that I, you know, have really thought about this a lot. I think Scorsese probably means more to me as a director. And I think Scorsese, there are certain Scorsese movies that you watch at certain points in your life that wind up having a really outsized impact, at least I think for you and I can safely say, and I think Paul Thomas Anderson has been somebody like that. And I think Quentin Tarantino has been somebody like that. But those guys can go off on their archipelagios, their islands and kind of disappear for a while.

And Spielberger has been a consistent presence in our entire lives. He more or less shaped the popular culture's concept of childhood. And I think has had a huge, huge impact on how we understand what a good movie is and what an interesting movie is and what is interesting about movies. And there's something so interesting about one of the things that you said, which is that he doesn't stop. We're only four months removed from The Post, which was nominated for Best Picture. And here we are now, and there's another hardcore popcorn entertainment from Steven Spielberg. One thing that I have found interesting about the conversation around him, and our colleague Brian Curtis noted this too, is I can remember a time when people would complain about Steven Spielberg not being serious enough. And Ready Player One has been positioned as this movie

about, you know, Steven, like, can he learn to be fun again? And, you know, he's in his 70s now and he is this wizened eminence gris of the filmmaking community. Are you anticipating a fun Spielberg movie now at this stage of your life? I find there's a lot of fun in a lot of his serious movies.

I find some of his fun movies to be a little bit of a drag. I'm looking forward to this because I think that everything about it suggests that I wouldn't like it if this was... What do you mean by that? I'm just not interested

in virtual reality as a setting. This kind of plot line about a young messiah figure who saves the world in this specific I don't know what the right word would be like this may be but like it would just basically be like

I know that these things have come along before like the Matrix and you know like Lords of Arabia and Star Wars are all about like these orphans who've saved the world but I think that this one in particular is just like I kind of like to feel a little bit more practical in my effects but if there's anybody who can get me into it, it's probably him.

I don't want to spoil too much about our list, but that's why War Horse is your number one pick, right? You're about the real world. I actually just like some of the B-roll he's already shot for the kidnapping of Alvaro Morata or whatever it's called. Let's cut to the chase. Let's talk about some of these movies. I want to start with your number five. What do you got? My number five favorite Steven Spielberg movie, speaking of spectacle, is Jurassic Park.

I rewatched it recently. One of the things that really jumps out when you see it is just how lean it actually is. The philosophy and the sort of the themes of the movie are really woven into a very tight escape story. It is very much a lean, middleweight fighter. And that's sort of, you don't really think about that because when you think about these spectacles that we see these days, your Transformers movies, your Avengers movies, you think of bloat.

You think of like very, very, very long set pieces in which the world crumbles. This is actually like- It's a movie about a park. It's kind of like a three or four-hander. It's really not... It's really, really tight. It still goes so hard.

You are still so emotionally wrapped up in everything that happens. Everybody in it is delightful. It's perfectly cast. And I still think it has the best version of Spielberg Wonderface, which is when a character in a Spielberg movie comes across something amazing. He captures wonder in a way that no other filmmaker really ever has. And there's several shots, most famously Sam Neill turning Laura Dern's head towards a brontosaurus,

which I think is one of the sort shots of my actual movie-going experience. Listening to you talk about it, I feel like Laura Dern with her head down on the breathing. Triceratops. Triceratops. Jurassic Park is wonderful. It's also in my top five. I think it is kind of the perfect middle ground, the median point of Spielberg's career. It's basically right when he was in his late

40s, early 50s when it's made. It is both spectacle and about childhood and about humanity and about the mistakes that we make and how we can solve them. It's also pure IP. Now, this year, we're going to have another Jurassic Park sequel. I think this is the fifth Jurassic Park

movie, Jurassic World, Fallen Kingdom. And even though he's just an executive producer on those movies, it is this interesting spin-off of his imagination. Well, that's what I wanted to ask you is that, you know, in Jurassic Park, there's a lot of cheeky stuff about the merchandising of Jurassic Park. How is the self-referentiality handled in Ready Player One? Pretty sleekly. Okay. I think it's not so self-referentiality handled in Ready Player One? Pretty sleekly. Okay. I think it's not so self-obsessed. In fact, he's given a couple of interviews

in which he's talked about removing some of the things. I think E.T. in particular does not appear in the movie and is in the book. ILM people threw in like a gremlin in some place. Yes.

Like he was just like, God damn it. There are some things that are his things in the movie, but without spoiling anything for people who haven't seen it, there is a much deeper and fascinating homage to Stanley Kubrick that is like maybe the best part of the movie. Oh, cool. Yeah, that part I really like.

Okay, my number five is Raiders of the Lost Ark. You may have heard of it. Yeah. It is the first film about Indiana Jones. Damn, it's really good. I think it's hard to describe what's good about that movie 25 years later, but it is a neat fusion of his point of view and George Lucas's point of view and their fascination with the serialized hero comic strip stories of the 30s and 40s and 50s

that they grew up on. And it is also, I rewatched it as well, and it is the best action hero star performance I think ever. Harrison Ford is so captivating as like a nerd professor who transforms himself into a hero. And I think the lessons that we took from that character that like Chris Pratt took maybe from that character are not the ones that I think we should have been taking. He's Superman. He's Clark Kent and Superman at the same time. Yeah, exactly. There's something so fascinating about that. I think also just it's very similar to Jurassic Park in so far as it's told perfectly.

It's tighter than you remember. It did create this whole unraveling world of IP. But in fact, it's really just a small adventure story. And even though it's about the Ark of the Covenant and Nazi Germany and the pursuit of things, it's basically just about a guy who like keeps falling down. And those are, those are my favorite kinds of movies. If anybody is somehow listening to the big picture and doesn't already know this, I, I should shout out that I think it's available on Steven Soderbergh's website. You can watch Steven Soderbergh. It's basically watch Steven Soderbergh it's basically

his silent film remix of Raiders black and white as a black and white film with the social network score playing over it and it is really something to behold

if you get a chance to check it out hardcore Chris Ryan content I remember the day that that was released you were your eyes were a bit blinkered I was just like

this theater that's great yeah it was very cool I mean that's a testament to Soderbergh being a wonderful weirdo, devoting his time to doing that. What's your number four movie? Number four is

Saving Private Ryan. It should probably be higher if we're really just ranking in terms of achievement. The first 45 minutes of this movie are probably the most virtuistic it's probably the most virtuistic. It's probably the most virtuistic large-scale selection of any one filmmaker's ever done.

Like, I don't think I can think of as long of a section of a movie. The opening of 2001, the opening of There Will Be Blood. I'm sure that I'm forgetting things. But just something where you're basically, you realize realize 40 minutes and you haven't taken a breath. You mean the entire storming the beaches of Normandy? To where he gets in his hands shaking when he opens his canteen at the end of the D-Day landing. We don't even learn what the movie is about. No.

It's just pure carnage. No. And I think that that film is two films. I think it's the landing and then there's the sort of, no, I wouldn't say hackneyed, but it's a little like greatest generation porn in the second half, although I think that there's really good stuff about PTSD and there's really, I mean, his sense of place is impeccable.

But there's a lot of like Ed Burns chewing scenery you know a lot of Vin Diesel's chewing scenery what an interesting cast that movie had fascinating Adam Goldberg

and Matt Damon obviously as the titular hero Ted Danson Paul Giamatti it's a very good Tom Hanks performance I think

a very underrated Tom Hanks performance but yeah that's number 7 on my list only because I think the back half is a little baggy and it's –

And three or four times. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it says all it needs to say in those first 40 minutes, which is war is hell. And we'd never seen it in that way. And I think since then we've seen some movies that have rendered violence in international conflict in pretty severe ways. But this was – that was a traumatic kind of movie-changing first 40 minutes, right? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. My number four is Schindler's List, which is kind of the other side of the coin on Saving Private Ryan. And I think does actually do some of the things that the back half of Ryan, I think, wish was doing, which is kind of reckoning with the other side of the conflict. It's a very stately and purposefully important movie. It knows what it wants to be. Someone told me a story recently that Billy Wilder learned that Steven Spielberg acquired the rights to Schindler's List,

and he came to Steven before he made the movie. This is when Billy Wilder, that Steven Spielberg acquired the rights to Schindler's List and he came to Steven before he made the movie. This is when Billy Wilder, legendary Hollywood filmmaker, was in his 70s or 80s right before he passed away and said, Steven, I know you have the rights to this story. I desperately want to make this film. It's my last movie, right? My last

movie. This is going to be my send-off to Hollywood. This is going to say everything I need to say. Obviously, Billy Wilder, famously an immigrant, a survivor of World War II, etc., etc. And this may be hearsay, but from what I was told, Steven Spielberg said, nope, I'm going to do it. And he did. And he did it for obvious

reasons. I think he knew the power of the material. I think he knew his personal connection to it. I think it's the kind of movie that if you see now, it almost feels cliche because so many of the choices that are made in telling it set a kind of prestige historical drama standard. But when he did it, and I think specifically the little girl in the red dress, which is this iconic image of innocence lost in the middle of conflict, is just – is still, if you accept it on its own terms, amazing filmmaking. Yeah. So I'm glad you brought up the little girl in the red dress because with Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List,

and the movie that's my number three, I think it gets right up to the edge of, if you're talking about Steven Spielberg as he's either making serious movies or fun movies, either way he has a master manipulator. And I think during the fun movies, you're a little bit more like, oh, this guy. He really knows how to pull my heartstrings, you know? But when you're in these serious films, and when you're

watching something like Munich, and when you're watching something like Amistad, and when you're watching something like my third movie, which is Empire of the Sun. What a take. It really does Now, Empire of the Sun is partially because it's a very personal film for me. My dad, like, I mean, my dad didn't have the experience of Christian Bale's character.

Your father, Christian Bale. My father was around the same age of J.G. Ballard. He's also English, also a World War II, sort of lived through that in his early childhood. And he introduced me to that movie, I find the screenplay by Tom Stopper to be the most, one of the more literate and intriguing and ambiguous, morally ambiguous screenplays that Spielberg's directed. Kushner obviously is another, he's worked with great people, Kushner, Steve Zalian, but I love the dialogue in Empire of the Sun. There are a lot of moments in empire of the sun that are really on the line between moving and manipulative um but they are i think they show him the reason i like empire of the sun the most

is because so many of his films are about childhood right but this is a film where you are seeing adulthood through the eyes of a child. And I think that that's actually the focus. It's not so much about like, isn't innocence. It's incredible time when we get to ride bikes and anything is possible. It's actually like the world is a hellish place for adults and children. And this is a child observing adultery, observing starvation, observing war, observing brutality, and observing sometimes salvation and hope and humanity.

But it's really locked in on the perspective of the Christian Bale Jim character throughout the movie. And in terms, there's a few sequences that are up there with anything he's ever done. The Cadillac of the Sky sequences, the saluting the Japanese pilots and the sparks flying off of the planes scene. And I think has some of the best performances in any Spielberg movie, Bale. And Malkovich is incredible in Empire of the Sun.

So I know it's probably high for most people, but I'm going to put Empire of the Sun at three. It's a great and original pick, perfect for a podcast like this. I will give my pick for number three right after this when we get a word from our sponsor. Support for today's show comes from Squarespace. Ready to start your new business? Make it stand out with Squarespace.

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With the Google Assistant, you can complete over a million actions on your phone, in your car, and around the house. For example, hey Google, add chips and salsa to my shopping list. Okay, I've added chips and salsa to your shopping list. Download the Google Assistant. We're back on the big picture with Chris Ryan, who just shared his number three Steven Spielberg movie of all time. I'm going to share my number three Steven Spielberg movie of all time right now. It's Close Encounters of the Third Kind. The more I look at my list, the more boring it feels to me. That's what I was worried about with mine. And it's tricky, right? Because when you look at the sum total of his career,

you have all of these movies that are really fun, but are not necessarily don't seem as important. And like Schindler's List is an important film and it's trying to be important. And it is. Close Encounters, I think, is also important in a different way. It sets a different kind of template for science fiction storytelling, for stories about families, for stories about obsession, for stories about divorce and the fissures that happen in families, which is also a very interesting theme. Yeah. Especially the first half of Spielberg's career. You know, I would love for War of the Worlds to be in my top five. That's pretty close for me. I love War of the Worlds to be in my top five. That's pretty close for me.

I love War of the Worlds and I love watching it. But the truth is there's nothing in War of the Worlds that is better than Close Encounters. Yeah. Like Close Encounters basically is doing a lot of that work in the first place minus some action set pieces. And, you know, Close Encounters, Steven Spielberg famously Child of Divorce. I think Children of Divorce have an interesting relationship to this movie and the way that they – the impossibility of communication and how hard it is to kind of figure out what's more important,

what's right in front of you or what's in the great beyond. I probably watch it once a year. I think it's not my number one because it's not as purely entertaining as my numbers two and one. But, man, it's got so many ideas in it. It also has, to your point about great performances, Richard Dreyfuss and Melinda Dillon are both amazing in this movie. It also has the flex of putting a filmmaker in a role as an actor. Truffaut.

Francois Truffaut, who gives a great performance in this movie. It's so beautiful, and the music is so incredible and iconic. It's another one of those movies that actually feels dumb to try to explain it. It's the most 70s American cinema of his movies. It came out in 77. I find it fascinating

because Spielberg is often blamed or credited, along with George Lucas, as bringing about the era of the blockbuster. But I feel like Close Encounters sort of got overshadowed by Star Wars a little bit. And that some of the ways in which he was trying to express himself in Close Encounters. And the ways in which he was, I don't feel like he had settled into this is what every movie has to have, which I think is something that he does come around to. There's not too many complicated heroes in Spielberg movies.

There's usually a central figure who, even if they start off a little bit shaky, wind up being pretty morally upright. There's not a lot of Daniel Plain views in there. No. I think that that's one of the things that's most interesting about Close Encounters. There's not a lot of Daniel Plain views in there. No. I think that that's one of the things that's most interesting about Close Encounters. It's not that anybody's

off as much as it's unclear where the hero is in that movie because it is somewhat of an ensemble piece and it's a little bit more about ideas than it is about characters, I think. Yeah, last year there was a really interesting, pretty hagiographic documentary about Spielberg that aired on HBO. Yeah. Last year, there was a really interesting, pretty hagiographic documentary about Spielberg

that aired on HBO. Yeah. And one of the primary focuses of that story is about his parents and the relationship that his parents had and the disruption, the breakup of their marriage and how it influenced a lot of his movies. That is like the original wound, right? Exactly. Yeah.

And for many years, he thought that his father just abandoned him and abandoned his mother. And we come to learn in the movie, which I had not known, though I suspect if you've read Spielberg biographies, you know this, that in fact, it was his mother who was having an affair with one of his father's best friends, and that his father, out of a sense of sort of duty, masculine duty, left and allowed her to have that relationship. And, you know, they actually still are friends and still have a relationship together as his parents. But he couldn't forgive him for years, Stephen. And you can kind of feel all that angsty 70s cinema that you're talking about being rendered in this movie.

Yeah, absolutely. That Richard Dreyfuss character being one part Spielberg and the idea of wonder and wanting to vanish and one part his dad kind of abandoning his kids in favor of this journey that he wants to go on himself. It's a really it's such an interesting deep movie maybe I might have fucked up. Maybe it should be number one. I also think it's very interesting what you said

about Star Wars too because Star Wars came out four months before this and obviously Lucas and Spielberg are creative compatriots and also pals and, you know, there's just that famous story about they both thought

that the other's film was going to be more successful and so they both bet back-end points on whoever was more successful and if... Turns out that they didn't need either one of them.

Well, they're both going to be fine. Yeah, they're going to be fine but Spielberg was quite confident that Star Wars was going to win and was going to be an iconic, historic movie franchise. And now he owns a small piece of the Lucas Empire because he won that wager. Good for him. I'm pulling for that guy. Yeah. I hope everything comes together for him.

He's lucky, you know. He's fortunate to make these small movies like Ready Player One and his dotage. Number two, Chris. Raiders. Yeah. I don't have a lot more to add from what you said I like how Raiders had a moment

I think a couple years ago with that Soderbergh thing and a couple other things where people were talking a lot about like oh this is just it doesn't get any better than Raiders

and I actually think that when you watch it it's on the line between that 70s vibe I mean when you watch Raiders now it does it doesn't feel antiquated but it's on the line between that 70s vibe. I mean, when you watch Raiders now, it doesn't feel antiquated, but it's hard to imagine such a languorous opening. I mean, he does not get to Karen Allen for about 35 minutes, right?

I mean, it takes a while for him to get into Belloc and Egypt and stuff like that. So I really enjoy some of the originality of that film and how it's still, even though I think people in their mind, like you're saying, Chris Pratt would love to be Indiana Jones. It's still a very hard film to copy and to recreate the magic of it. Where are you at on Denholm Elliot?

Phenomenal. He's great. Yeah. I feel like Denholm Elliot, your dad would dig his work. Yeah. He's a really great character actor. My number two is Jurassic Park. Similarly, I don't have too much more to add other than it's one of the five or ten most entertaining movies ever made. It's just a perfect fusion of—and I got it at the perfect time for myself. I think I was maybe a young teenager or even younger than that. It's also hard to overstate, I think, because I'm a little bit older than you.

We've probably experienced this a couple of times over the course of our life with like Michael Jackson or something. But the approval rating of Jurassic Park is hard to overstate. That's true. How immediately and unbelievably popular that movie was upon release was just like,

everybody heard what it was. Steven Spielberg was making a dinosaurs movie. It's like, okay, I'm going to see that three or four times. I think I did see it three times. And the other thing too that's great about it is it is this perfect fusion of it set a new standard for what computer generated graphics could be in a film. And it also has incredible practical special

effects. It has this Stan Winston work on the ground where you can see, like I said, Laura Dern with her head down on the triceratops or you can see the Tyrannosaurus claw foot pressed down and the footprint. There is all these specific tactile touches in the movie that I'm not going to say make it feel real because that would make me sound like an idiot, but make it feel lived in and actual. So, yeah, Jurassic Park number two. Before we go to our number ones, let's ping pong around the filmography a little bit. What's a movie that you think needs some attention here that we're not getting to? You want to talk about Minority Report?

Yeah. It's right outside. That's a number six for me. It's probably the darkest popcorn movie he made. I think, and depending on how you feel about AI or what you consider AI to be or whether you consider that to be his movie or Kubrick's movie. I wish it was a Kubrick movie. That's my big problem with it. It's pretty high on my list, but I think actually if it were a Kubrick movie, it would have been even more dark.

Yeah. And Minority Report, you're right, is shockingly cynical. Yes. Some people have noted that the things that that movie satirizes are actually treated in a very straightforward manner in Ready Player One. There's some acceptance of the satire, the sort of like, one day an eye scanner will show us every advertisement that is perfect for us. Yeah. You know, Ready Player One is kind of the uninvestigated version of that. Yeah. So it's like, oh, for sure.

Like, that's just like, it goes without saying. Exactly. There's religious overtones to Minority Report that don't often pop up in a lot of his movies. I think that Minority Report is something that is probably the ugliest world. One of the uglier worlds that he has set a movie in. Obviously Schindler's List, Saving Private Ryan are rooted in historical fact, but this dystopia, he feels more like Tomorrowland than he does a dystopia kind of director. And I know that Ready Player One kind of has it both ways, right?

It has a bit of both but it's more wonder than it is terror right but that's very true and I think it's also it's certainly the only movie that he made in which like

a man's eyes are surgically removed you know or where drug addiction is a major theme I think that's something fascinating about it also he was really pushing it stylistically

I feel like the cinematography with all the overexposed light just like burning out frames and a lot of the helter-skelter camera movement. It's got one of the low-key best set pieces is the Colin Farrell-Tom Cruise fight in the factory. It's also a great Colin Farrell performance. Early Farrell making a bid for your heart. That's right. It's also one of the first movies that, it's not one of the first, maybe the fourth or the fifth movie that Janusz Kaminski made with us. Yes. And it feels more like what all Steven Spielberg movies look like now.

This sort of like cloudy, natural light flooding through into a dingy area. You know, the movies that he made with him before that, AI, Saving Private Ryan, Amistad, those movies are in the real world, and there's something dreamlike about Minority Report 2 that is really interesting. What's a bad Spielberg movie? He's made a lot of bad movies, too.

Yeah, I think that there are minor movies, and then there are bad movies. I'm kind of out on the Tintin experiment. The BFG mocap thing, the weird like, I just want to keep making movies that millions and millions of six and eight year olds

are going to buy stuff for. You hate kids. You've always hated kids. Well, I think that kids in Spielberg movies are great. I think when Spielberg tries to make movies explicitly for kids, I'm kind of out. I felt this way about Hugo, too, on the Scorsese, too, just to go back to that where I was like, I don't know, could you just make a movie for me and not for nine-year-old me? Right, don't wait 20 years to make The Irishman and now you have to Photoshop dudes' faces. Get after it.

I agree. Or just make silence. I don't care. What's bad? Would you put Hook in the same category? Well, no. I mean, Hook, I actually, I have a very big soft spot for Hook. Let's go.

Because it's one of the first movies where I learned about stuff happening behind the scenes. Hook was a very big premiere magazine news and notes movie. It was a hugely anticipated film. People were like, man, is there going to be anything bigger than Hook? Why was that? Well, set the scene. I think it was a tumultuous time in Julia Roberts' life. People don't

remember, but she did pull Runaway Bride. I mean, there was a lot of Julia Roberts gossip around the time. And I think it was, if I remember correctly, one of those really like, oh, so Dustin Hoffman's made a choice. And we're just going to have to go with that. And Dustin Hoffman is like a very, he's dark in this movie as Captain Hook.

And I think it's like, what do you think of this movie? Is this due for a revival a critical revival is there a spielberg movie here that like you think is due for like oh you know it's actually the really like the heater and spielberg's filmography i'm i'm preparing my version of that for ready player one 10 years from now because i do think that there's some interesting ideas in it i don't know i mean i have a soft spot for hook too because of the time when i saw it. I definitely saw it in theaters. I had no real awareness of it as a Spielberg product, actually. I probably understood some of the other movies we've talked about here more like that. I understood it as a Robin Williams movie.

This was really in the heyday of Robin Williams' movie stardom. Yeah. And it's quite an antic performance. I also just—the chants of Rufio in the back of my mind echoing forever. It's also crazy long, right? It's long. The colors are insane if you think about all the Never Neverland. Like the painting that goes on.

It's like an interesting mess. You know, I don't think it has as much to say as it thinks it does. It was kind of a forebearer of reboot culture. Like let's reimaginebearer of reboot culture. Yeah, sure. Like, let's reimagine the story of Peter Pan.

Let's get Lin-Manuel. Yeah. We're actually literally getting a version of Hook this year with Christopher Robin, the new Winnie the Pooh movie, which is all about Ewan McGregor playing a grown-up version of Christopher Robin and then going back into Winnie the Pooh's world as an adult. I mean, that is Hook. So, you know, it obviously had an influence on people. It's at least interesting. I find the BFG and the Terminal like completely uninteresting and bad. Yeah.

Hard to watch, actually. 10-10 I thought was frivolous. You know, Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is, I don't know, you want to cape for that as a longtime Shia fan? No, and it's too bad because if you, and I don't mean to be bleak, but if you're talking about like a finite amount of movies that Spielberg is going to make left, the fact that he's going back to this again after that movie, but writing Shia out, which is their prerogative,

and I can completely understand why, but it's like, do we really need another Indiana Jones movie? Was there a better way to end one of the great franchises than The Last Crusade? I don't think so. You know, they're making a fifth one. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's going to happen. The fact that one of the last five or six Spielberg movies is going to be another Indiana Jones movie

that has a 1 in 10 chance of being great. Yeah, that is disappointing. You're right. What do you think of E.T.? I was just reprimanded for my lukewarm take on E.T. by Amanda. And if my wife listens to this, she will also make me sleep

on the couch because it's a beloved movie by many people in my house and my life. I'm kind of not indifferent to it. It's just that there are other movies that I love so much more.

What do you think about it? I put it down here at number eight, and now I'm like, why did I do that? You want it to be in the top five? No, I don't really care about E.T. I think it's fine. I think if I had a choice of what to watch, I'd rather watch Lincoln. I'd rather watch Last Crusade. I'd rather watch maybe not Amistad.

I never am like, it's time to watch E.T. I think the beginning of E.T., I mean, you have to understand also is that E.T. is one of those movies that's been bit so much that so many people have like basically based entire film franchises or television shows, Stranger Things, off of. That going back to the original source material is not always that rewarding for stuff like that. Do you think it's because we don't have kids? Maybe. But the parents aren't that big of a deal in the E.T. But I think that's a good movie to show to children. I rode bikes. I don't need to

have a child to understand what it's like to ride a bike across the moon. Okay, fair enough. Any other Spielberg movies you want to address? You're a big Munich guy, which I think is pretty overrated. I can understand why you think that, but I think that, again, the opening 35 minutes of Munich where everybody just needs to put their cameras down.

This guy's the best. Okay. Yeah. Deal. Let's talk about number ones. Yeah. Do we share number one? We sure do.

I can just tell. Because it's probably one of the... I think that if you were really going to press me and say, okay, what's a perfect movie? What is a movie that has a delightful script, but could be a silent film? What is a movie that has drama, humor, scares, laughs, tension, humanity, great performances, great music?

It's Jaws. Jaws. Jaws is a perfect movie. I now see Jaws every July 4th at the Arclight when they play it. I could watch it once a month. I wouldn't get bored of it. Every time I see those guys comparing scars in the galley of Robert Shaw's boat,

I'm like, has there ever been anything better than this? Than Roy Scheider, Richard Dreyfuss, and Robert Shaw being like, are you still wearing a sweater when he pulls his shirt down and his chest hair is there? I mean, I just don't even know what to say about it. Every shot in there is iconic. You could show me any shot from Jaws, and I'd be like, that's from Jaws. It's completely true.

It's similarly burned into our minds. I have a buddy that I went to college with named Nils, who you've met, Chris, and Nils would spend days at a time communicating to me and my friends just in Robert Shaw dialogue. I mean, he had a way

of knowing exactly what to say to break somebody up from that movie. Man goes into the water, sharks in the water. Do you want to just do Shaw for a while? I'm not going to attempt any Shaw. But yeah, I think it's an incredible script. It's incredibly well made.

The perfect people are cast in it. Steven Spielberg, quite famously, just didn't know what he was doing when he was making the movie. It was a complete train wreck of a production. Somehow, all of the bad things that happened turned into he was making the movie. It was a complete train wreck of a production. Yeah. Somehow, all of the bad things that happened

turned into good things in the storytelling. You know, most notoriously, the fact that the shark itself didn't work. Bruce, named after Stephen's lawyer.

Yeah. Yeah, it's just a, what a, what a wonderful, life-changing experience to see Jaws as a kid. There's a very famous part in a documentary

that anybody listening to big pictures should check out, which is called Visions of Light. It's a cinematography documentary. It's about the history of cinematography. And I think Bill Butler, who shot Jaws, but Jaws had a really great camera crew, I think a bunch of the people who worked on Jaws. But Steven Spielberg initially wanted everything in Jaws

to be nailed down on tripods. And they were like, Steven, if we do that, people are going to be throwing up in the aisles. If you have everything nailed down to, and we're just all swaying with the waves and Spielberg's use of eyeline and a waterline in that movie, both in terms of like the swimmers, but also when you're on the boats and what the perspective is of the shark and what this sort of omniscient other person who's watching the boat sees and all the handheld stuff that they do on the boats and the handheld stuff that they do in Roy Scheider's house. It's just, it's one of those incredible happy accidents. If

he didn't know what he was doing God bless him yeah it's like a it's like a great song you know you just you know the words even though you don't know how you know the words

I'm thinking about this as you're talking about even the way that it looks it just it all feels familiar and very few movies I mean what other movies

have that kind of power I mean Star Wars is a movie like that yeah but I would even say the Jaws I mean I think the realism of Jaws, and I know realism with a giant great white shark off of Nantucket is pushing it, or Martha's Vineyard, but there's also the personability of the characters.

I think that Roy Scheider, you know, you were talking about Harrison Ford as an iconic figure. I think that run of Roy Scheider movies in the late 70s is pretty important. Underrated movie star. Yeah, and his ability to carry what is a very fantastical story with just being like, I'm just like this beleaguered cop who moved to the beach

to have like a quiet life and now I'm fighting a great white is just one of those great, great stories. I really want to do the whole opening Shaw scene. Yeah. Y'all know me. Know how I earn a living. I'll catch this bird for you, but it ain't going to be easy.

I could just do that forever. We have to get some cans of Narragansett. On a better day. Chris, what else about Steven Spielberg do we need to say here? Should people go see Ready Player One? I think so. That's my seal of approval. Yeah. It's an interesting work. Yeah, go see Steven Spielberg do we need to say here? Should people go see Ready Player One? I think so. That's my seal of approval. It's an interesting work. Yeah, go see

Steven Spielberg movies. You can't really like, you're not really going to be mad about it. I think, let me ask you this. Famously doing two in a year, one year off. Yep. Would you rather get one every two or three years that really, really, really, really was like, this is what I want to

say? Because you feel like he's racing a little bit now. He's almost racing at its time. He's got three or four movies in production right now. West Side Story remake, a Leonard Bernstein film, the kidnapping of Eduardo Orada, I think it's called, which was supposed to shoot before The Post, but they couldn't cast the kid. And Indy 5. Yeah. And this film about war photographers that he was going to make with Jennifer post, but they couldn't cast the kid. And Indy 5.

Yeah. And this film about war photographers that he was going to make with Jennifer Lawrence, I think. Yeah, there are several blog posts you can find about the unmade films of Steven Spielberg. I mean, he has been on and off myriad projects over the years. I think it doesn't bother me that he made two movies in a row like this because Ready Player One has taken four years to make. I mean, it's such a vast undertaking

because most of the movie looks like a video game. I mean, there's very few, there is human performance in it, but that's not the bulk of the story. And you can see that he made the post in three months. Yeah. You know, that was just a shotgun wedding of a movie. And that was like, everybody's available.

I need something to shoot over the summer. Let's do it. Let's go. Yeah. You know, he talks a lot about the urgency and the desire to do it after he read Liz Hanna's script. That's obviously why it happened. I quite like the post. Um, and I, and I quite like ready player one, maybe not in the same way. So I don't mind if he's doing things back to back. I mean, honestly, he released Jurassic Park and Schindler's List in the same year. I mean, he's Steven Spielberg. Chris, let's wrap this up by talking about your favorite Spielberg performance. Sure. Pick one, maybe wow us with a, let's wrap this up by talking about your favorite Spielberg performance. Sure.

Pick one. Maybe wow us with a movie we haven't talked about much. Yeah, well, I'm very partial to Tom Cruise in War of the Worlds. That's like a cool underrated one. I think that was a really, really nice moment for him before things got too couch jumpy. But if I'm going to pick one, I'm going to go with Leonardo DiCaprio and Catch Me If You Can. And this is specifically around a time, and I think one of the big things with Leo is he's walked so far away from his natural charisma that you wonder if the charisma is

actually very natural. I mean, he's obviously one of the most attractive movie stars we have, but he's always just like, I gotta be in Shutter Island, just burning holes in my own stomach, or I gotta be... And it's so rare to catch him in his, it's like, I'm just gonna turn it on to 100. And unfortunately, the only other time he's done that, really outside of Catch Me If You Can,

is Django. So that's a tough one. Which he's phenomenal in Django, but that's not exactly the one you put on the greeting card. A complicated tale. Catch Me If You Can just finds him. She's like, yeah, I believe it. What do you want to do?

Do you want my checkbook? Do you want to fly this plane? Do you want to date my daughter? Whatever you want to do here, because I'm looking at the big blues and I'm in love. That's exactly how I feel about Daniel Day-Lewis and Lincoln. Take my money. You can't compare.

Take my money, Daniel Day-Lewis. Just please come back. Do more films. Yeah. I feel it's actually a very similar kind of performance. The movie is built around

this one deeply charismatic person and their ability to wriggle in and out of trouble. You know, that is what Lincoln is doing throughout

the whole movie. That is what Frank Abagnale is doing throughout Catch Me If You Can. I think Frank Abagnale is probably more of Me If You Can. I think Frank Abagnale is probably more of a con man than our 16th president, but there is something so

commanding and perfect about Kushner's dialogue, Spielberg's framing, and DDL just crushing the light. Now, now, now! Chris, thank you so much for doing this. Listen, if you want to read more about Ready Player One, check out TheRinger.com.

You can see Kay Austin Collins' review of the film. I wrote a column about how all of us, myself included, can't get offline. And because we can't get offline, all the movies are about being online all the time. Check out Damage Control. There was a fascinating conversation about the movie there as well. And yeah, read The Ringer. Thanks, everybody. Bye, guys. bonus big picture content joined by the podfather bill simmons your first appearance on the big

picture what's up bill is that true yeah man um i'm sorry i wasn't here sooner i would have liked to have disagreed with cr about something but uh you were worried i was gonna crap on spielberg yeah i feel like you're you're here to undermine a little bit. Is that not the case? No, I think Spielberg's the greatest director we've ever had. Oh, well, fantastic. Is that possible? Well, Chris and I just talked about our top fives. And when we were talking about them,

we kind of found it actually pretty hard to talk about the best movies because it's like, what do you say about Raiders of the Lost Ark at this point? It's like that movie just kicks ass. It invented a whole kind of movie. So, yeah, he's probably the best popcorn movie director ever. I feel like the hardest thing to do as a creative person is make great stuff that appeals to everybody. And I don't care whether it's movies or whether it's writing or whether it's a podcast or a TV show or whatever. It's the single hardest thing to do. You can appeal, like you can make the four and a half hour Gary Shandling documentary that appeals to

Sean Fennessey. That's extremely rude that you would do this in public. I'm just saying you can do that and you can appeal to a small group of people that will absolutely love it and be over the moon delighted that you made this thing, but a lot of people are just going to turn it off. And the

balance, I think, especially when you get to Spielberg's level, is how do you make awesome stuff that is for everybody? It's the hardest thing to do. So, like, I look at a movie like E.T., and, you know, E.T. is one of the five greatest movies of all time when you factor in the fact that it's 36 years old and anybody's kids could watch it now and it's still cool. It could hit everybody from age two to age a hundred.

And it's actually a good movie. Chris and I were just talking about the fact though, that it's not as high on our list because I think because we don't have kids. So we haven't had as much of a relationship to it in the last 20 years. That's how I felt. I felt like E.T. was dead for me. And then I watched it through the lens of my kids and I was like, this is amazing.

And then like, if I'm alive long enough for my kids to have kids and watch it through there, I think I'm with you. Jaws is the best movie. Not only that he ever made, but it's probably the first modern great movie that still is completely watchable. It's incredible. We were saying we know it like the back of our hand too. I know every

beat, every line of dialogue, every look. It's also just fun. It's had so many different incarnations too because the TV's got better and there incarnations too because the TVs got better. And there's certain movies with the widescreen where it just wasn't as good on TV. And it really hurt the movie. And now with that movie, it's like if you have the right TV, nice big TV with HD and the widescreen, how it was meant to be shot, it's incredible. And the sound, the John Williams score booming.

It's so good. And also when you think about the point of his career that he was at and all the people he was competing against and he made the best movie of anybody that decade out of all those young guys I think. It's certainly the one that's held up the best. It basically created summer movies.

For better and worse. For better and worse. I'm old enough to remember when it came out and just how important it was and how huge it was and going with my parents to one of the beaches in Massachusetts that always had a ton of flies and were terrible

but you drove to the beach I remember being so scared of the ads for that movie that we were walking on the beach, 50 feet from the beach, like on a sidewalk and being scared that Jaws was going to come out and get us. That's how effective it was. Not to mention it was a great movie.

And when Robert Shaw dies, that's still one of the 10 greatest scenes of all time. You can't believe it's happening. You, you missed me doing a little bit of my Robert Shaw imitation earlier. I think you and I had similar upbringings, right? Because you're growing up in Massachusetts. I'm growing up in Long Island.

And Amity is kind of a fusion of Massachusetts and Long Island. That's what that town is, totally. It's like Cape Cod meets, I don't know, the Hamptons or something like that. Simmons Family Christmas, or Simmons Family Cape Week. Go to the Cape every year, starting in the mid, in the mid late seventies when my dad's mom was alive. And one time we biked to where they filmed some of the Jaws stuff. And it was, it was like hollowed ground,

hallowed ground, hallowed ground. Hallowed ground. I can't speak. It'll fuck you up though. If you think about what, what you think happens there, you know,

that children are eaten by a giant shark. It's evil. That's what was great about Jaws though, is that it went there. It did. It pulls no punches there, you know, that children are eaten by a giant shark. It's evil. That's what was great about Jaws though is that it went there. It did. It pulls no punches. And, you know,

Roy Scheider's kid almost died. I also think that's a great Roy Scheider movie and that's a whole other conversation, but it's great Dreyfuss. It's the best

of those three guys. Close Encounters did not hold up as well. Oh, see. Very cool movie at the time. I went out of my way to say I think this is, I didn't put it at number one

and then the more I talked about it, the more I was like, this is really great stuff. For a reason that I think you would understand which is like, pretty good divorce movie. Pretty good like children of divorce movie. Yeah, all that stuff's great. That stuff's really good. I just try to watch it with my kids and it's too slow. It's slow. It's just, it's moving at a pace that, the cool thing

about Jaws is it's not slow. No, no. it's propulsive. It's out of its time in that way. Yeah. But then the arc of him, like, you know, even Duel was really good for a TV movie. We didn't talk about Duel at all. Yeah, Duel was like his first real movie. I thought like the HBO documentary, I really would have just concentrated on Spielberg becoming Spielberg.

And I probably would have ended it right after he meets Kate Capshaw and makes the second Raiders movie. Because after that, it was like, you're talking about the greatest, I don't know, the greatest first 15 years of anyone's career ever. I would say actor or director. But you often don't, the reason I thought you were going to come in here and diss him is because you don't respond to a lot of his

more recent movies. Like, you're not a Lincoln guy. You know, you're not, I don't think you're going to be a Ready Player One person. You didn't love The Post. You know, like, you don't seem to be

as into him doing the historical dramas. You don't seem like you're really in a minority report. The movies that people really like that have come out in the last 20 years.

Yeah, those were all, those were all solid movies. I don't feel like they were that special. I think the thing with Spielberg that has been disappointing, and again, you're nitpicking with the greatest director of all time. Although some people would say Kubrick, whatever. Who else would be in the top? Scorsese.

Scorsese, who made the body of work with Scorsese is really more up and down than we want to admit. You want to talk Akira Kurosawa? Is he on your list? But I think the thing with Spielberg that's been disappointing is as he's aged, that perspective has not

gone in his movies in a really interesting way. It's almost like he's made these movies to be like, I'm cooler, I'm better at what I do, but my childlike wonder at everything hasn't really changed. I like Munich a lot less than most people. Chris is very high on it.

Some people are high on Munich. I thought it was a huge disappointment, and I thought it could have been so much meatier and cooler, and there could have been all these underlaying things to it. and, uh, it's a rare movie that I would have liked to have seen made by someone else. You know, I think so. I think a different director with a little bit more style who knew how to do like a heist assassination movie could have made it actually more entertaining, which maybe that isn't necessarily the point that that's a very serious story, but it's a movie that should be entertaining because it's a thriller.

It should have been like a Michael Mann movie. Right. Like a vintage Michael Mann or just somebody who approached it that way. And I never felt like he knew what that movie was, and I didn't really enjoy it that much. I'm pretty sure Michael Mann was making your beloved Miami Vice when Spielberg was making this. He probably was. Maybe that was part of the problem. So they both screwed up.

My thing with Spielberg, and I always do this with music bands or whoever, is like, if you just got hit by a car at the peak of your career, how would people remember you? If he got just hit by a car in 1986, we would have been like,

wow, that guy, oh my God, can you imagine? Yeah. So if you look at it from that point on, yeah, if you look at it

from that point on, are we happy with the movies he's made? Yeah, I think he's been good. I think it could have gone a lot worse. But I still think that first 15 years of his career is ridiculous. Let me ask you one sort of recent movie. Yeah.

Jurassic Park. Yeah. Do you care? Yeah, I think it's an important movie. I had Jeff Goldblum on my podcast recently, which we haven't run yet, but I don't really know if there had been a movie quite like that before it came out,

where it's just like, this is a blockbuster, we're going all in. Maybe there's another movie, but I don't really remember the approach of that being like, here's a huge book, We have Spielberg. This is going to be a big deal. It probably won't be that good, but it's going to be fucking awesome to watch. And that's how they did it. I think it's actually good though. I think it does some of the same stuff that Jaws does where it's really entertaining. It's not slow. All the performances

are perfect. It's actually better in that respect than you remember. Chris was talking about how it's actually pretty tight. It's like two hours. It moves actually better in that respect than you remember. Chris was talking about how it's actually pretty tight. Yeah. It's like two hours. My kids like it. It moves, you know, which is pretty rare for those movies. And also it invented this whole like universe of Jurassic Park movies. There's a Jurassic Park movie this year that we're going to, everybody's going to go see again.

It's kind of amazing that he's been able to do that. I think the biggest flaw with him is there's a calculating thing about him that people sense that all the choices he makes, he's making because it's a career choice and it's not, you know, you think about the other great directors from either that he grew up with or just people that we know

and that we care about. And we talk about Michael Mann. Like, Michael Mann had this look. We, I can describe all the things about Michael Mann. He's fastidious. He, like like he was

obsessed by certain things he loved telling the story of like here's an anti-hero um here people trying to figure out a job here's somebody who loves the job more than they love people in their life like he had it's like these touch points yeah and Spielberg's just kind of all over the place and it's like oh the wonder the childish wonder childish wonder. And then he does different things. And then he does Schindler's List. And it's like, my attitude of that as it was happening was he's doing this because he wants to win an Oscar. Which I don't think that's fair, but it's a little like how we treat LeBron. Where it's like, why are you doing it this way?

Why did you do this interview? He's very conscious of his own narrative. Always. Always. So even like when he does DreamWorks and he forms this company with Geffen and with Katzenberg. And it's like, well, this is a big deal. This would be like, you know, not to compare DreamWorks to The Ringer, but it's like, all right, I'm forming this company. I'm all in on this company. And yet does projects outside the company.

Yes. It was like there was, as a business session, it's like, no, it's actually better for me to do this company. And yet does projects outside the company. It was like there was, as a business session, it's like, no, it's actually better for me to do this outside. And it's like, well, why'd you form the company then? The whole point of this company was you were all in. It was a really good DreamWorks book that both of us have read from a few years ago.

And he just makes that point. It's like, he formed a company because it was a smart move, but he wasn't one of those like, roll up your sleeves, guys. We're about to change Hollywood. If you called me and you were like, I'm working on a cover story for Sports Illustrated, I'd be like, what the fuck are you doing?

Why are we doing this? By the way, I'm doing a new podcast with Cadence 13. You're either in or you're out. So it just seems like all the moves that he's made have been like, it seems like I should do this. He's strategic, though I wouldn't hold that against him. I mean, honestly, it's kind of impressive the way that he has manipulated the game over the years and bent it to his will completely.

I mean, he has been for 20 plus years basically the most powerful person in Hollywood. But I think that's why there's always that but with him. Whereas like with Scorsese and with Coppola, Coppola who really his career completely fell apart in the early 80s. But now we look at it romantically and it's like, oh man, he just loved his work too much. Oh, he fought to save Godfather. He told the stories he wanted to tell. Oh man, he was never the same

after Apocalypse Now. That guy just like, meanwhile, he's done 10 shady movies. Scorsese, same thing. Scorsese, oh man. Oh man, just he loves it man he just does tells his stories he'll take chances

he'll do well do Cape Fair he'll do like he'll try things Spielberg's done that but we we didn't respond to it that way

like Catch Me If You Can is a really cool inventive what was that on your list? Catch Me If You Can is number nine and Chris and I were just talking about

how that that Leo it's also great that Leo, it's also great Leo. It's a great Leo. It's really him kind of at his best. It falls apart with about a half hour to go. All of a sudden they catch him and it's just kind of over. It's like, what happened? I thought... Yeah, the real life kind of distorted the ability to make the movie more fun.

But that was cool. Minority Report, he tried something. He does try things. It just always feels like it's like an alien landed on Earth and it's like, I'm going to be the greatest movie director of all time and what would the human beings think I should do now? I do think he deserves credit for it though. It's like even the stuff

that, like you and I don't care about Tintin or the BFG, like all that stuff I think is considered mostly a failure. But those were weird, interesting swings for him to take. And Ready Player One is kind of like that too. It's basically a movie that looks like a video game. Now here's, I'm going to now defend, I'm going to argue against my own point.

Okay, great. I'm going to do the Stephen A. Smith, Mexico. He was so rich after E.T. that it's amazing he's had the 35 years that he did. He basically hit the jackpot in the most obscene way you can hit as a creative person he became immortal professionally but then also made

a shitload of money and then made even more money from Raiders and like I mean by by 1985 he wouldn't have even really had to work unless Amy Irving hadn't divorced him and taken half his money which of course was glossed over in the documentary about him.

Seemed important. He married his lead actress from Raiders 2 who he mistakenly said he met in 1985 even though

the chronology was he was still married until 87. You think this part will make it into the podcast, Bill? Why would you leave this? I'm just saying he he you know it could have gone really, really wrong for him.

And that was really the only bad thing that happened with him. Yeah. He left his wife for somebody else. He was expert at managing his narrative through and through. I mean, he's always been in total control. You can't edit me out of the podcast. I'm not. Don't worry.

That's bullshit. Zach Mack, you don't touch this. Okay. This is a safe space for you, Bill. You can say whatever you want. Say what I want. As long as we don't slander anybody. Or I'll just take my podcast., I'll do the Spielberg.

Okay. New host of The Big Picture, Juliette Lippman? Is that what you're going to do? No, I'll do stuff with other people like Spielberg. Wasn't that weird that he did that? I never understood that. Well. You've created a company with two other people.

You own one third of it. Why would you not do everything in that and try to turn that into the biggest behemoth there ever was? I think because he knew that there were some places where he could use the resources of other places

to take bigger chances. Then don't form the company. Well, I think he didn't want to go bust. Now, obviously, DreamWorks ultimately didn't turn out to be this legacy brand that they wanted it to be.

It didn't work. You know, it's still around in some forms. And the animation stuff actually makes a lot of money now. Yeah, I mean, that was a mistake that people are still like, you tried something. That's cool. He got credit for it. You tried something, but then

you didn't totally try it. I'm looking at your list really quickly. And then I know you have to go, oh, Saving Private Ryan, I think, is an important movie for him. I think the first 20 minutes of that movie are absolutely one of the best

20 minute stretches ever what about the next hour and 30 minutes it's tough there's things I'm sure there's things he would cut out

it's Goldman one of Goldman's best pieces ever when he just completely destroys it and how it's false because it tells the perspective

through one guy's lens but then it turns out it's the other guy it's like a narrative tells the perspective through one guy's lens but then it turns out it's the other guy. It's like a narrative failure. But the first 20 minutes are out of control. Yeah, we were saying earlier,

we never saw a movie like that. We just never saw anything like that whole barrage, that scene on the beaches is incredible. It's like a setting. It was one of those, in the theater,

when it finally calms down, and I saw, I was living in Boston, I saw that in a full theater and when it finally calmed down, people were like it. I was living in Boston. I saw that in a full theater. And when it finally calmed down, people were, like, shaking. Oh, yeah. You could feel it. It was like we had witnessed, like, a car crash.

And it's like, wow, there's two hours to go. You remember hearing that sound of a bullet whizzing and then hitting flesh? And I was like, whoa, this is not what it was like in Rambo. Yeah, it felt like being in the war. Nobody had ever done that. And I think as he's made so many movies that I think some of the little stuff like that has been lost. Like the fact that Jaws was the first of its kind and like Duel was the best TV movie ever. TV movies were terrible.

And he made a great one and put itself on the map. All that's the first Raiders is, it's a little slow now. I'm fine with it. I think it works. It takes its time to get into the story. I judge everything by my kids who have,

you know, 21st century ADD with pop culture. It could move faster. Yeah, I still think it's pretty fun. It's not as perfect as Jaws. It's not as good

as I remember it in 1982 where it was like, I saw In Cleveland Circle with my dad, which was this movie theater in Brookline. And it was like, you almost didn't know what to do after. Like, wow, that was one of the most incredible experiences of my lifetime. I know.

How did they, oh my God. And you just want to talk about it for an hour. I wish that I could have that feeling again, but it's hard as we get older. We don't get movies that way. I felt that way. There's been times, like I felt the first time I saw Get Out, I felt maybe not 100% Raiders, but it was just like,

wow, that was awesome. The theater was in. It was like everything you want from going to a theater. It's very true. It's rare though. It's rare now.

And it's funny, we were talking about, Chris and I were talking about how Star Wars came out in June of 77. Yeah. Close Encounters came out in November of 77.

I mean, that's three months away. Those are movies that are probably going to live for 100 years. Amazing. I'm old enough to remember seeing both in the theater and Close Encounters, which I don't feel like has aged as well as some of the other stuff.

But in the moment in the theater when he goes up and everybody is just kind of shell-shocked after you leave the theater. Like, oh, my God, are there aliens? It's traumatizing. It was really, what just happened? Should I fall asleep tonight? But yeah. Anything else? And he got the best out of Dreyfuss.

Always. Good thing he got really good performances out of people that we take for granted now, but then if you look at him and it's almost like a Popovich type thing, you know? Interesting. You're like Dreyfuss. Those are two of his three best movies. And Leo, that's probably the most I've liked Leo in a movie.

Other than maybe This Boy's Life and Titanic. He's always been good with Hanks. Hanks is really good. He gets a good... It's almost like Hanks' character actor, Hanks, a little bit. Yeah, he's Jimmy Stewart. He makes him his everyman. Cruise...

I have conflicted thoughts on Minority Report. I think I'd never watch again. I disagree. Really? War of the Worlds and Minority Report

I think are both good. I actually wish Cruise would do a really serious movie with him. I think actually if he did one of those historical dramas it'd be a good thing for Cruise.

Will there ever be a podcast where you and I don't talk about what Tom Cruise should do next? It should be The Verdict. Or a movie like that. He's got to have some sort of problem. Well, maybe we can get Steven to do it with Tom. Cruise needs to admit that he's in his mid-50s now.

And once he does that, the next phase of his career is going to be humming. I tried to watch American Made on an airplane and you told me you'd like it. I just couldn't take it seriously. He's playing a pilot in the 80s and he's got this weird wig on and he's 20 years older

than the guy he was playing and I just couldn't get past that. I was like, this is crazy. You're a 56-year-old man, Tom Cruise. Maybe one day he'll play his age. Bill Simmons, anything else about Steven Spielberg? No, I'm pro.

I'm pro. It's not a controversial take No it's just like come on guys we're gonna pick when you do the best directors thing and people get a little haughty about it

and they have to say you know they list like he's gotta be in there he has to be one of the five directors that are mentioned first I'm with you man

that's why we made this podcast Bill Simmons thank you my pleasure that are mentioned first. I'm with you, man. This has to. That's why we made this podcast. Yeah. Bill Simmons, thank you. My pleasure. Looking for a laptop that delivers on both performance and price? The Acer Swift 5 offers a powerful Intel Core processor, super slim design, and more. Discover new possibilities with the Acer Swift 5.

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