The Big Picture - ‘Superman’ Is Here to Save the Day. Are We Saved?

Episode Date: July 11, 2025

It’s a bird … it’s a plane … it's the 'Superman' episode! Sean and Amanda dive deep into James Gunn’s highly anticipated ‘Superman,’ starring David Corenswet and Rachel Brosnahan (3:11). They discuss why they were pleasantly surprised and why they think the film works, explain why  Corenswet was an excellent casting decision for a modernized version of the Superman character, and share the things they felt were ultimately not successful, like landing some of the story’s bigger themes. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Jack Sanders THIS EPISODE IS SPONSORED BY THE STARBUCKS COFFEE COMPANY. ORDER NOW | STARBUCKS.COM/MENU Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Available for a limited time only, your summer berry refresher is ready at Starbucks. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Superman. There is a new Superman movie in the world directed by James Gunn. We will talk about it on this episode before we get into our conversation about the movie, which we've just seen last night. There was a small bit of movie news, which is that Dune Part 3 is real. It is happening. It is not called Dune Messiah. It is called Dune Colon Part 3. Timothy Chalamet

is in the movie. It's starting production and it has been dated officially for December 16, 2026. This is notable because it is the same day as Avengers Doomsday, which is after Fantastic Four The First Steps, the next Marvel movie. There will be an 18-month gap between Marvel movies. And these two movies, which are both huge in their own way, are going toe to toe. For now. For now. This is like, this is a real, like you can't, this is corporate spreadsheets and that's

fine and it's our job, I guess, to like pay attention to their press releases. But yeah, this is 18 months away. I would imagine that there will be some synergies or, you know, best opportunities. If you had to guess one of the movies moves, which one moves? Avengers. I agree. Yeah. Because of the- But can it afford to move? Can they go two years without a movie? Oh, and you don't think it'll be done in time?

Well, there was- You don't think they could move it up to like November? Oh, oh, well, there was a report this week that there is no third act in the movie right now. Which is in production. What's different is what I would say to you. That is a problem. That is a problem. Of course it's a problem, but it hasn't stopped them from releasing every other movie.

That is our elegant segue to Superman, because James Gunn made some news in a Rolling Stone interview a couple of weeks ago in which he said that the problem with most comic book movies these days is that they go into production without a finished script. And that's not something he wants to do with what he's doing at DC movies.

He wants to have a completed script that he wants to shoot or that he'll have another filmmaker shoot. Twice a day, I am the stop clock that agrees with James Gunn, I guess. Maybe once. But if we're doing military time, sure. Yeah, I think it's a good idea to go to make a movie with a finished script. Just writ large. It does seem like a good idea. I actually don't know enough about the Marvel process at this point.

I have to assume someone submits something that is completed, but that everyone agrees they're not happy with, but is good enough to begin filming. So let's just talk about Superman. Okay. Superman has been described as the most important movie of the summer, maybe the most important movie of the year. Certainly the most important movie, at least for now,

for the comic book movie Industrial Complex. Sure. We've been doing this for nigh 25 years since Spider-Man in 2000, 2002. And this has been in some ways the lifeblood of American movies and in other ways the bane of American movies. It's been a fairly dark five to 10 years.

Yes. Superman is written and directed by Gunn. It's his seventh feature film. Clearly very inspired by All-Star Superman, which is a Grant Morrison run of the comic book from about 20 years ago. It is the first film in the DCU, now that they have shuttered the DCEU,

which is the extended universe that Zack Snyder was somewhat responsible for. It stars David Coren Sweatt as Superman, Rachel Brosnahan as Lois Lane, Nicholas Holt as Lex Luthor, Eddie Gathegi, Anthony Carrigan, Nathan Filian, Isabelle Merced. The logline of the movie is this, when Superman gets drawn into conflicts at home and abroad, his actions are questioned, giving tech billionaire Lex Luthor the opportunity to get the man of Steel out of the way for good. Will intrepid reporter Lois Lane and Superman's four legged companion

Crypto be able to help him before it's too late? What did you think of Superman? It works. It works. I, and I, and honestly, half of the movie I was pleasantly surprised by. The other half I, I am famously and committedly allergic to James Gunn's brand of filmmaking and certainly most of his sensibilities.

And I think some of that was my allergic... Some of what doesn't work is my allergic reaction and some of what doesn't work is... Choices that I don't think pan out that perhaps me and I'm right but that's fine but I think he is great she is great Nicholas Holt is is is wonderful I don't I you know despite whatever is going on with that character and so you if you get the three main leads and you and you get the chemistry I think for me, and you get the chemistry, I think.

For me, at least, the rest falls into place around it. Yeah, I think this is a great movie. Um, I don't know if it's a perfect movie, it's not a perfect movie. I do think it is a really great Superman movie. And those are really hard to do, which we've seen. I think you could make the case that there has not been a great Superman movie since Richard Donner's Superman. I'm very fond of Superman 2, particularly Donner's cut of Superman 2.

And the 1980 movie, which you and I both watched this week, or 78 movie, I should say, casts a very long shadow over Superman at the movies. And I give Gunn a lot of credit for finding ways to echo and parallel the success of that movie and replicating really none of it. That this is... has the feel because of the John Williams score and the typical iconography of the suit

and the hopefulness of the character. But the way that the story is told, the way that it looks, the performance style, the writing, and the desire to, I think, reflect the real world for better or worse, makes this a completely different kind of comic book movie. And there are a lot of things that he attempts to do

that I feel comfortable saying do not work, but I'm really fascinated and interested and in many ways rooting for the fact that he did do them. And how we unpack that will be probably a big part of this conversation. But I came away just really impressed with his willingness to try a lot of things inside of what is typically considered a very boring container of Superman.

Yes. I think what he does with Superman the character and how he pays homage to the 1978 and more broadly to the idea of Superman in our minds. But also updates him for 2025. and more broadly to the idea of Superman in our minds, but also updates him for 2025. Like that is a good, smart decision. And he does something with the sincerity and almost like the dullness of the character, or that's the danger, right?

If you don't figure out how to make Superman compelling, he solves it and it is... I mean, it's sentimental in the right way. Like, I think the way he positions him against... both Lex Luthor and the various villains, but also just the world and Superman himself is smart. And I completely acknowledge that's a really hard thing to do. So I agree with you in that sense.

Like, he... He makes the most important decisions, the right most important decisions. Yeah, I think, let's talk about the very specific decisions. You know, I've made a list of all the things I think this movie does right. And all the things this movie I don't think does very well. Okay.

I'd like to talk through most of them with you. Okay. In general, I talk through most of them with you. Okay. In general, I think this is pretty thrilling, a good setup for the future of these movies. I want to enjoy it... Okay. ...as a standalone experience. Well, yes. And I would argue that some of the...

the you in DCU creeping in throughout this movie, in like all the various ways that that takes shape shape is what is frustrating about it to me. Or not even frustrating, but when I checked out. When I was like, oh, you're doing this now, okay. And also notably when the movie gets away from Superman and from Lois and from Lex Luthor, who I thought were great. So-

All part of my notes. Yeah, go ahead. The first thing that it does well, and we will be spoiling this movie. This is one of the biggest movies of the year. If you like a movie podcast, I presume you're at least somewhat interested in Superman. Maybe you'll see it. If you don't, that's okay. You can listen to this conversation anyway.

The movie jumps in media res. There is no real backstory in this movie. There's no origin. There is a title card of a sort. And I got so stressed out. There's so much text. And I am not... I'm a visual learner except for the title cards explaining, like, the rogue setups of superhero and sci-fi movies. And I, like, said to you, oh, no. But I did my best.

I sat there and I was like, I'm gonna absorb every word. I felt that, so it's styled in like three centuries, three. Three centuries ago, this happened. Yes. Three decades ago, this happened. Right, so, but I liked the repetitive, the structure. It was, there was almost like, it was something for me to hold onto framework wise to remember what was going on. But I was nervous about the amount of information

that was being conveyed to me via type in a short amount of time. So, to me, I was relieved by that because it was a fakeout. It was this suggestion that you were gonna get a Star Wars-esque scroll. But in fact, like, that actually operates in the same way. The same way that Star Wars kind of just thrusts you into the world. And in the first Star Wars film, you're just on a ship with Darth Vader, and we're off in the middle of the story. This movie operates very similarly.

There is a great amount of history around metahumans and a Kryptonian who has arrived on this planet. But the movie more or less assumes you know all that. And so, where we start is Superman has just lost a battle. Which is unfathomable in general because he's Superman. And by the time you get to the end of that title sequence, it's like three minutes ago. Yes, it's three centuries, three decades,

three years, three months. And as the title sequence goes on, you realize, like, OK, like maybe I'm not gonna have to have every bit of this memorized. But I did feel that very familiar MCU comic book, like homework panic of like, oh God, like I got to, I have to. And it does effectively communicate by the end of the sequence, like, oh no, you don't actually have to remember the names of both fake countries.

Yes. Gunn has talked very openly about not wanting to do this and that he doesn't feel that we need to see the Pearl strewn across the street in the Batman origin story. We don't need to see, you know, all of these images that come with superhero origins. He wants some more or less dispense with them, which is good. Now, I would not say he's subverting them. He is still working in more or less canonical mode of Superman. Right.

Lex Luthor is an evil billionaire who wants to destroy Superman. Lois Lane is a Daily Planet reporter who, you know, is a fiercely independent woman who also can't help but fall in love with Clark slash Superman. Jim Yolson is the sidekick in the office. There's a fun dog. Like, it is all still Superman. And also, speaking like, canonically, the sidekick in the office, there's a fun dog. Like it is all still Superman. And also speaking like canonically,

you do within five minutes after that, you know, Superman, after the title sequence, you see a very, like a familiar image, like recreated for this movie with a funny cameo that speaks to the lore and the origin story of the super. So it, like, it still is using the building blocks. The Fortress of Solitude is in this movie, for example. So all that stuff is there.

The way that it's framed is slightly different from the Donner version, for example, in that it's very pop, it's very colorful, it's silly at times. There are a lot of kind of winking asides and nudges and gags that feel somewhat reminiscent of the MCU storytelling, but I would argue maybe like a little bit less Internet meme and a little bit more

Goofball sense of humor, which is kind of Guns tone. It's definitely goofy And that comes like really really quickly in the movie You find right away with the introduction of Crypto, the dog, and the way that Superman interacts with his dog, that this is a... This has been said, and this is not an original thought, but this is a two-hour Saturday morning cartoon. And if that is interesting to you, as like a framework and a tonal choice for this movie,

I think you will love this movie. If you liked Saturday morning cartoons as a framework and a tonal choice for this movie, I think you will love this movie. If you liked Saturday Morning Cartoons as a kid, in that it's like, it's dangerous but not violent. It's epic but not stuffy. It's colorful and not washed out or overly serious. And it kind of moves and it's episodic. There's a villain, the villain needs to be dispensed with, there will be another adventure tomorrow. And it's just a good choice. It's just a good choice for Superman. It's a good choice if you like comic books.

It's a good choice if you like cartoons. Not everybody does. But the MCU actually never really felt like a comic book. The way that it was serialized feels like comic book storytelling. But watching the movies, I didn't feel like I was reading a comic. This feels like reading a comic or watching a cartoon.

And I give them credit for that. That's not easy to replicate. It's a unique experience watching that stuff and consuming that stuff. To me, a person who occasionally watch Saturday morning cartoons doesn't really read comic books has lived in the last 20 years of this pop culture moment. I guess, I wouldn't say it's scanned to me as a Saturday morning cartoon, but it felt familiar and nostalgic in a way that was pleasing as opposed to, like, thirsty. If that makes any sense of, like, trying to restructure and recreate.

It's definitely someone who's, like, lived in the muck of this stuff and has an idea of it and does think it's also, like, really fun. And then to your point about it being pop and, like, being colorful, I do think half of the visual choices that are made in creating this world, like, are excellent. And, I mean, it's obviously both stylistically

and technologically, like, very, very different from the Richard Donner, 1978, but there's a sense that, like, Superman is operating in a real place for most of the time, even if it's in made up town. And that kind of leaps off the screen, pun intended or not intended, I guess. It feels more real.

Yeah, and sets up a contrast with the other half of the film. Yeah, we'll get there. Okay. I think my single favorite choice in the movie is the film. Yeah. We'll get there. Okay. I think my single favorite choice in the movie is the characterization of Superman. This is a very contemporary way to frame this character who can be considered boring. Superman, you know, his origins are from Jewish creators. It's a it's an alien

story. It's a story about being an outsider. It's about a failure to fit in. It's about an aspiration to goodness that is, in theory, inside all people, but that he kind of represents, he kind of externalizes the potential of the human experience. This Superman is kind of like that, but also a Superman of the self. And this is Emo Superman. And we've never really had this kind of a Superman before before and you see it very early on in the film after that first

series of Exchanges in Antarctica when Clark comes back He's been recharged and he conducts an interview with Lois Lane in her apartment, right? And he conducts the interview as Superman and they they're together, and she knows he's Superman. Yeah. So we've kind of dispensed with the whole... Yeah, yeah, all of that. All of that is gone, which I thought was a good choice.

Yes. So that we don't have to go through the like, will they, won't they, will she, won't she realize what's going on here stuff. But watching them talk, watching his kind of angst, his nervousness, his frustration with the way that he's perceived in the world. Right.

And then, this is something you wouldn't know if you didn't do what I did, but last night, I was looking for a song on the soundtrack, and I found the official Spotify playlist. And this probably would annoy you to no end, but James Gunn made a specific playlist for every single character. And I looked at the songs that he chose as, like, Clark's songs.

Yeah. And they're all, like, early 2000s emo and pop punk. And that kind of perfectly made the character make sense to me. It's like... This is a Superman who listens to all time low. And, you know, who listens to... He's the dashboard confessional Superman. It's like, it's in the text. They're arguing about, like, you know...

They're having a punk rock conversation. Exactly. And Clark thinks that he's punk. And he's definitely not. And Lois sees herself as someone who is actually punk. But Lois is actually, like, yelling about bands. Like, they play that on the radio, you know? And he's like, well, that means a lot to people like them. That's one of the great scenes of the movie.

Very charming moment. Like, very funny and they have real chemistry. But yeah, I agree. Like, this struggle is, like, is internal as much as it is, it's mirrored both, like, who am I supposed to be to myself, but also to everybody else. Which in some ways is like a very familiar superhero thing of like, oh, do people want me to do this?

Do people not want me to do this? Like, how do we, you know, what are my superpowers? Like, what, how should I use them? Mm-hmm. But it is handled, it's done deftly and with a lot of, um, like, care in this. So you actually do believe that Superman is just, like, trying to figure things out, you know?

He's just like, he's early 30s. He's trying to get in touch with his feelings. He has two different, like, dad figures who have taught him different ways of what to be. Like, it's very smart and very well-realized. It's a great choice. Um, I was genu... As you know, I was genuinely concerned

about this movie. I was really down on the first two trailers. I didn't really understand the David Corn sweat thing. And now I understand it. I understand it so powerfully. It was a very... He was a very good choice for this because he's not Henry Cavill. You know, he is not made of absolute iron and has like a lantern jaw.

That's not... That's not what this Superman is. He's still the most powerful being on Earth and is going to save the day. And is tall, dark and handsome. And very handsome and fits the mold, but there's something vulnerable about him. It is they have humanized the inhuman. That's kind of the idea of this movie.

And I think it works really well. And it is like, it's the modern condition, you know? Everyone is just more sensitive now than they were 50 years ago. Than they were 100 years ago when the character was created. We don't have as much of the stiff upper lip than we might imagine was like a character of the country, or at least the American man. So I liked it. I really liked it.

It also allows Lois to be... less helpless and more just... More the hero. More the hero, more Rachel Brosnahan. Just abs... If Superman is having a crisis of confidence, Lois, like, knows what's up. Yeah, she's like, get it together, bro.

Lois is our girl boss for forever. Um, but, but, and I normally mean that in a, in a rude way. And I think that she's, it's actually a great character and performance. I mean, obviously, the journalistic ethics will, will, you know, we can get to that. We should go through that at some point. Amanda's journalism corner.

Yeah, it's just, there's like, there's a lot here to discuss. I also wanted to talk about their copy editing process on the ship, but that's skipping ahead. Anyway, at the end, she... Journalism is done in this movie. I'll have you know it. It is done. And she also, like, drives, you know, like, an iMac chip. So she gets to do all sorts of things.

She does. Um, okay, this is something that you might not like, but I find to be a fascinating component of the movie that is related. No, I thought it was, yeah, no, it's definitely, like, I see it. I know what you're saying. I, you know, it's... Let me say it and you quibble. You can quibble. Not that I quibble with it. It is... This movie helped me understand why I am so allergic to so much of James Gunn's output, including almost all of his promo stuff.

This is the apotheosis, though, of that condition. Yes. So, in the movie, James Gunn is Superman. It's unmistakable. There is a plot in this movie where Superman comes under fire because a piece of his past related to his parents is unearthed by a vicious enemy who then uses the nefarious and boundless evils

of internet troll armies to repeatedly misinterpret to the public the reputation and standing of, quote quote unquote the last good man in society. And this is exactly what happened, at least in his perception, I think, to James Gunn. In 2018, he was fired from Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 by Disney because old tweets were unearthed and he was roundly castigated and pushed out of comfortable society. Now, I think better judgment prevailed on Disney's part. He was rehired.

Obviously, the cast of that movie was furious because they love him. And he also helped make their careers in some ways with those movies. But this telling is simultaneously, like, a very personal exorcism of a publicly embarrassing moment for him. And also, just kind of like revenge porn against Disney.

And I think that's fascinating. Like, that happening in the biggest movie of the summer is, to me, if you want auteurism, if you want a personal vision, he did that. Yeah, I don't disagree. I think that there is just an undertone, or maybe not even under, of main character energy and great manness that... Some self-pitying.

Self-pitying that is exasperating to me. And I do also... Now that you've isolated this plot point, my issues with this part of the plot are the same issues that I had with the James Gunn issue in real life. Which is, like, how did no one take care of this tape? You know what I mean? And now we're just magically unearthing it again.

It strains all belief and is also just such a fucking cell phone, you know, that I am kind of like, well, this is all stupid. This is really, really, really stupid. Yeah, I know, I, this is all stupid. This is really, really, really stupid. Yeah, I mean, I can't disagree with you that it was not a good idea for James Gunn to tweet those tweets. It was not a good idea for him to not delete those tweets as he grew in stature in the industry.

It was not a, you know, all of that is true, obviously. And I think him equating the naturally empathic goodness of Superman with that experience is a bit absurd. Now, here's where I'm gonna really go for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The movie that this reminded me of the most, and I thought of it about halfway through the movie, is The Brutalist.

Oh, I thought you were going one more. No, I mean, listen, I said great man, main character energy for a reason. The Brutalist is essentially the same story. Right. About, in that case, a great artist who is believed to be at the absolute top of his class, who is then exiled and used by powerful forces

and then discarded. And obviously, Brady Corbett sees a lot of himself in the Adrian Brody character in that film, and is applying some of his experiences as an artist and characterizing them. And also using... tremendously traumatic historical conflict as a backdrop for the story.

And this movie, which we will get to, does very much the same thing. Now, are Superman and the Brutalists similar kinds of movie-going experiences? They're not. But they're kind of similar filmmaking perspectives. And... Obviously, I love the Brutalists.

Yeah, 100%. I think why make a movie, why write and direct a movie if you're not gonna pour yourself into it? If you're not gonna pour your ideas about your experience as a living person into it? I think I have a natural empathy to that. I'm interested in what people have to say through this medium of storytelling. And so, I liked that person into it. I think I have a natural empathy to that. I'm interested in what people have to say through this medium of storytelling.

And so I liked that Gundid it. Now, is it goofy? It's a little goofy. Yeah. But it's better than just like, here's Captain America 4, you're an idiot, I hope you enjoy this. You know what I mean? No, I totally agree. I do think that baked into both the brutalist and this.

I agree with you. You're going to write and direct something. You know, tell you, write what you know. Write yourself. But implied in both of these takes and this filmmaking perspective and the, you know, the hero as the unimpeachable force, who is misunderstood or blockaded by everyone else.

And if this person could just get final cut on life, then everything would be right in the world. Like, like, lol, a little bit. And do you know why lol? Because I saw all the parts of the same movie you made that, like, don't work, you know? So I don't know if we can trust you with the final cut. And there is something in the text that they are making

about their own... kind of infallibility that show their fallibility at the thing they are doing that makes me laugh. That's all. The dividing aspect of those two movies, though. I think I was a little bit more frustrated by hearing you say that about The Brutalist because I was like, this is a small movie. Like, if that part of the movie doesn't work, for example, that's fine.

Like, this is something that was really important to him that he wanted to put on screen. You could call it pretentious, you could say it's unsuccessful, but it is like from a very pure place. To try to do that inside of a Superman movie, which is literally like potentially a stock price moving venture, is a wild act of self-regard. And I don't mean that negatively.

So I'm fascinated by that being in the movie. And by it being to me so transparent. Now I'll suggest one other person that I thought of while watching the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This one's funny. Maybe it's a troll and maybe it's not. But I thought of Taylor Swift. Sure.

Because Taylor Swift, this is her iconography. The most successful artist of her generation. Truly beloved. In many ways, seemingly infallible and invulnerable. Mm-hmm. But also someone, no doubt, stricken by a kind of main character, how could this happen to me energy? Pretty much through a large...

All the way up until like three years ago, I would say. This made a tremendous amount of money on that particular identity. Yeah, that ideology. And that is what the Superman we're getting. Yeah. What does it say about you that when a man does it, you think it's really bold and exciting, and when Taylor Swift does it, you're one of her greatest attractors for 15 years.

It says I have a lot to learn. Um... No, you know, I think my challenge is specifically that I just don't ultimately like Taylor Swift's music that much. And I do like James Gunn movies. And that's really all it boils down to. Yeah, sure. I mean, like same but in reverse. You know, like I enjoy Madonna.

If Madonna positioned herself in the same way, I'd be more forgiving because I like her music more. So, but to me, this kind of framework is very common. And it also applies to the real world. I mean, this is how a lot of our world leaders... Yeah. ...position themselves to us. They say, like, I'm all-knowing and all-powerful

and I have everything. Why won't everybody stop attacking me? Right. And it's just a smart way to frame, or at least it's representative... Yeah. ...of a common psyche amongst the powerful. I think that's really what I'm trying to circle.

That is true. And it is also, it is like the greatest weakness of otherwise deeply powerful people, is being like, why don't you like me? Why don't you like me? So I guess there is some self-knowledge in that, though not, I don't know whether I think it's actually self-knowledge or just... I don't know either. I don't know whether I think it's actually self-knowledge or just...

I don't know either. I don't know either. And it feels unmistakable to me, but I could be wrong. James Gunn can say, I wasn't thinking of that at all. Yeah. Seems unlikely. Okay, now this might be where we diverge a little bit. Okay. So to me, the metropolis world building

and the pacing of this movie is very good. This is a movie that I think looks good. It is not in New York, but it feels close enough. It's Cleveland. It's Cleveland, okay. Yeah, many of the locations are in Cleveland, and I think it's based on Cleveland, because apparently Superman also has some...

historic origins in Cleveland. Okay, maybe the founders are from Cleveland. The creators are from... I can't recall if the creators are from Cleveland. That makes sense. That's great. Not so far from Kansas. That would be logical. I think Metropolis looks pretty good. And I think the pacing of this movie is very good. This movie's under two hours. We are living in the era of the two-hour and 48-minute

comic book movie. And we've kind of whinged about it quite a bit in the last five years. And... this one's pretty brisk. Why would you think I disagree with this? Well, it's because I don't... Was unbothered by the loading of the movie, I'll say.

That there are a lot of characters in this movie. Yeah. That they are kind of like very... One of the only times I heard you sigh during the film was the introduction of the quote, Justice Gang. Yeah. Which is Hawke Girl, Mr. Terrific, and the Guy Gardner version of Green Lantern. We can talk about Green Lanterns if you're interested at all.

Um, but they show up on the scene to battle a Kaiju with Superman. And it just kind of turns into a comic book movie all of a sudden. You know, what had been like a more tightly focused character study of Superman and his battle with Lex Luthor became a lot of CGI, a lot of flying around and fighting a monster. Yeah. I thought that was the stuff that wasn't gonna work

when I was watching the trailers, and I thought it worked really well. Now, it does do one thing that I don't like, which we can talk about, in terms of getting less Superman. Yes. But I think that those characters and the way that they're framed in this world is pretty mild. It's not a lot of, like, over-explication.

There's a shocking lack of exposition in this movie. That's true, except their job and... what they have to solve is the most mumbo jumbo exposition of the whole film. Yes. So, my problem with them, in addition to they show up and they're just like, oh great, it's another superhero movie. And to me, we can talk about whether this does feel

like a Marvel movie or whether it feels like a departure. I think it can be both. But, you know, I'm trained at this point, like, oh great, okay, so here's the spinoff for the next thing, and here's like what we're setting up. And I just, I sighed because I was tired of that. The other thing that those characters, well, they sort of represent the engineers,

Mr. Terrific, who's who? Mr. Terrific, yeah. Mr. Terrific. That's Eddie Gattighi's character, yeah. Ends up having to spend a lot of time in like another portal universe. And so just the James Gunn sci-fi stuff, like goofy sci-fi, and we all have to like build up a team and like jump some portals and make up some science

and have like a lot of creatures portals and make up some science, and have, like, a lot of creatures who, you know, look a lot like humans that I know. But, you know, like, it's not my flavor. I just, like, I don't like it. I don't, I have no interest in it. I didn't like it in Guardians of the Galaxy. I don't think it's funny. I don't, I think that it looked like absolute shit. Especially compared with Metropolis, which I think was filmed so well. And those action sequences are very exciting. So that was why I sighed. It's not because of the lack of, you know, exposition or the lack of...

that I didn't understand. I, like, understood plenty. I'm like, ugh. I think it is a fairly understandable movie. I think these movies tend to get pretty ornate in their plotting and their MacGuffin-ing. But I do agree with you. I think the biggest flaw of the movie is a big chunk in the second act where Superman effectively is...

extradited to a black site... Yeah.... and tortured. And that's one of many real world events that he is very closely mirroring in the actions. His detainment itself is clearly a nod to the practices of ICE and illegal immigrants. And the idea of like taking people, government sponsored, but sort of like black-shadowed...

Exactly. ...disappearancing. Licensed out. And the American government is represented in this movie as kind of... They have faces, but they're just in one room doing what Lex Luthor tells them to do or not do. Yeah, they're bureaucratic functions. Yeah. And they're bureaucratic functions. Yeah.

And they're more or less being controlled by money. So we can talk about some of those aspects of the movie. I do want to talk about those aspects of the movie. But those aspects of the movie lead directly to this period where they enter a pocket universe, which Lex has created in an effort to kind of disappear his enemies. And the pocket universe is a pocket universe. It's not the real world.

It's on the verge of a black hole. And it's just kind of a CGI mess. And it's like a drag in a movie that otherwise, I think, has a lot of invention around how it wants to look and how it wants to represent Superman existing in the pop real world of Metropolis. And that's the only time when Mr. Terrific's exposition machine is going at all times.

He has to tell Lois everything that is happening. It's just... There are lots of gizmos and gadgets. It was definitely the sequence of the movie that I liked the least. I didn't like how it looked. I thought that the idea is, like, when he's being hauled off, I was like, oh, wow. This is pretty dramatically showing us

what our life is like in a Superman movie. Yes. And that is still actually in Metropolis and the people are... Like the... whatever, like the mercenary crew... The black ops, yeah, mercenaries. ...looks a lot like ICE and there is someone like... It's Frank Grillo, right? Who is explaining, you know, they've contracted you out

so they don't have to deal with it. Exactly. So you have no rights. Like, they don't have to deal with it. So you have no rights. Like, they don't apply to you because you're not a citizen. Yeah. And then obviously, it's a very... I think it is what you said. It is James Gunn's predilection for that kind of story stuff. It is the most Guardians aspect of the movie.

We see the most characters. We see the most, like, creatures. We get introduced to Metamorpho, who's a Justice League character, who has the power to transform any part of his body to, like, an element. And so that's how we get Kryptonite introduced to the movie. I mean, he couldn't transform himself into something that could get him out of the Black Site and get everyone else? I mean, he does later, so...

It's a very good note from CinemaSins, Amanda. Plot holes, Amanda. Before we get further into the things that maybe don't work as well, let's just circle the performances. Corn Sweat. Lights Out. Victory. It worked.

It's so good. And he also just has a thing there, like a few shots of him where I just swooned a little, you know? Which you do need from Superman. Not that Henry Cavill didn't have that, but there is something really endearing and still also... Yes, that man is... That's a cinema star. Yeah. Cavill didn't play Superman with very much humor. Right.

I thought he struck the absolute right kind of figure for Superman. But I just think the writing kind of failed him over and over again. I wanted to enjoy him in those movies. Corn Sweat... I'll be curious to see what they do with Superman in the future, because I feel like he can only work with James Gunn. Okay, yeah. If you let someone else write him,

will they be able to thread the needle of this very sensitive mega power? Right. I don't know. I don't know. There are a lot of emo boys out there, in like James Gunn's age group. And a lot of them are making movies now, so... You're not wrong about that.

Rachel Brosnahan, one... Lights out once again. I would like her to take me to dinner. Um... Uh, she's very charming. She's very appealing. I think that the... Anything happening in the Daily Planet is very TV. I don't mean that as like an insult, but it's very like...

We're moving to the next scene here. We're doing... And in a way, like, it is doing like plot exposition. It's plot exposition about journalism. Yeah. That's at least a great part of the creation of those characters. It's like there is literally a character whose job it is to find out what's going on. And she gets to be the detective of the stories. So she gets to draw the conclusion that in the film, the civil conflict between Boravia and Jarnepore...

That sounds right. ...is oriented around Lex Luthor's participation in terms of arms dealing. And that's the kind of story that a big city newspaper reporter would break. So... Once upon a time, when we had... Shots fired.... story that a big city newspaper reporter would break. So... Once upon a time, when we had... Shots fired. When we had big city newspapers. Yeah.

Well, now we just get it on Substack. Yeah. Well, I was just going to say we just have one. What if they made Lois Lane a Substacker? I feel like that would actually have been an even more resonant choice in these times. I think that... A podcaster? I actually do think that the amount of real media that the movie works into this movie

is tone perfect. They got it right. Meaning TV, broadcast. And the fakes Fox News. Yes, Michael Ian Black as the Tucker Carlson of this movie. Very funny. And there are references to social media and also Superman not really understanding it. And then a great joke, the only funny part of the sci-fi world, was the Pocket Universe

as Lex Luthor's trolls, who are all like little monkeys typing all their mean things. And that is when the, oh, this is about you comes like, comes on. But it was still very funny. It was very funny. Uh, Nicholas Holt. Yeah. Now, he's become a bit of a character on this show. He keeps taking these parts where he's getting beta-cocked. Well, in this one, he takes this part because he wasn't gonna get Superman.

He auditioned for Superman. And he has said he's auditioned for many superheroes and many big-time action leads over the years. And he basically never gets the role. And so instead, what he gets is the part in Nosferatu, the part in Juror Number Two, you know, the part in Renfield, the part in Warm Bodies. Like, he's in the genre movie.

Yeah. He is the star most of the time. And yet somehow... And he's essential to selling all of the movies. Yes, but he is reactive. Yeah. You know, he is like, he's the blood bag from Fury Road. He's not...

driving the action. Now, in this case, he does get to drive the action. Because everything he does dictates what happens. I was a little bit skeptical of this rendition of Lex all the way up until the end. And he gets a big speech at the end. Or they're sort of having a conversation via FaceTime bot. No, FaceTime drone.

Is it FaceTime drone or is it when they're... Oh, before they come. Before they have a confrontation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When they're talking to each other. Sure. When they basically have a philosophical conversation about the character of Lex Luthor. Yeah.

Which is, why is Lex so mad at Superman? Well, that is my... That's my actual one big note about the whole... So you didn't think that explanation worked? No, the explanation did work, but it comes in at one hour and 45 minutes. It does. And everything else that they jump right into, or the yada yada as the case may be, I was fine with.

But him just being like so big mad at Superman for... And I was just like, what actually is your damage? What is... What's going on here? Yeah. And I think, and I don't blame Holt's performance for that, I think that is just basically like, that is a piece of character development that is missing from the movie until the very end of the movie.

It's clearly a choice that they made. It wasn't, to me, it wasn't like a mistake. They were just like, we're gonna hide the ball on revealing any of Lex Luthor's intentions. And they're not just in the vein of Lex and Superman, the Donner Superman. Like, Lex and the Donner Superman is like, world domination is my goal.

I'm gonna set off a series of natural disasters in California so that I can take greater control of the land in this world. That that is the coin of the realm. This is a different kind of a character. But the thing is, they do, like, do the... They established that plot, and for a long time, and what Lois is investigating is that he is an arms dealer,

he's funding this, like, this invasion of another country so that he can be, like, the ruler over it and also get access to oil fields, not related to anything in the world at all. And... And they sort of position that as, like, and also get access to oil fields, not related to anything in the world at all. And they sort of position that as like, that's his motivation for a while. And then you learn that the real motivation though

is that he was doing all of that to try to trap Superman. But they do actually, he says a few times, no, I really hate Superman the most, like at the very beginning, in a way that undermines that faint. And that's what I was confused about. If they'd stuck with just the basic, he's your average warlord,

and or not your average warlord. He does also, by the way, resemble Stephen Miller in this movie. No doubt about it. And like physically. Yeah. This is a story about people... Yeah.

James Gunn has, like, literalized this in the press, like, one day before the movie came out. He was like, this is a movie about an immigrant. And that's kind of sounds like director bullshit, but it isn't. It's a rare case where, like, when a guy is like, this is about the... this is the parallax view, but with superheroes, like, it is.

Which, again, we'll get there, whether that's a good idea or not is an interesting conversation. Or whether they, like, execute... get there, whether that's a good idea or not is an interesting conversation. Yeah, exactly. Or whether they like execute, whether they handle it the way that they show it. Right, not what is it about, but how is it about it, is the thing I'm asking. Exactly.

Anyway, they undermine the faint of like, he's just doing this for power and land and money. Yeah. Too early on. I just really, really liked the way that, to me, this was really good gun storytelling. And I don't know if he found this in Morrison or Tom King or one of the other writers, but...

Lex saying, it is envy... that drives me crazy. It is envy that drives me to want to destroy you, because the envy that I feel... locates the fact that we're all weak. And that that weakness is what drives us mad, and I can't live like that. I can't that is that that's a very modern thing that that speech and that performance was great It was just kind of where it was in the storytelling that and and the other choices they made Giving his motivations or not that were sort of confusing to me

But like no I agree with you everything they're yelling at each other in like the sunny ship. And I also really liked the sunny ship. Like the tower bridge that takes off. Yes, yeah, yeah. But no, at some point it's flying. Was great writing. It worked for me. I agree.

That stuff is really good. That's somebody who gets those characters and has something to say, I think, through those characters. Eddie Githigi is like the third lead of this movie. He's in more than Nicholas Holt is. Yeah. As Mr. Terrific, a character that I'm just not all that familiar with. I'm not a huge DC person.

OK. I thought he was pretty good. Yeah, I felt bad for him. He had to like work with a portal for a while. He's in a portal. A lot of paper mache. You know, I wonder like how many times they had to like redo that, you know, because the like crinkly stuff.

I actually like the. I guess the production design and the actual like the textures of everything. It all feels very real. Well, until you actually get to the black hole stuff. And that's very bad. But I like I will give them. And that was also even that was true of Guardians of the Galaxy 3

a movie that I straight up hated but He he is saddled with a lot of silliness. Yes. He does get one badass fight sequence that lasts like one minute where he Puts low they're about to get to the portal and he puts Lois Yeah, you know force field bubble so she won't be injured by all these mercenaries. And he dispatches them in a kind of a classic James Gunn, semi-slow-mo set to a pop song. Right. Here's, yes, cool design. Uh, all of the mercenaries have real, like,

Broadway cast member energy to their moves. And, like, I even noticed the choreography. Like, everyone, like like landing their spot, and they're just like, ha! You know, and you can really, and these are choreographed, and I consider like them, you know, dance sequences in a lot of way. But we, you could see everyone knew exactly

where their marks were, and where's like, really going for the mark. That's the gun thing is like, he's kind of a hokey, razzmatazz guy. I kind of like that about him. I mean, he's not Stanley Donnan or anything, but he does like that, let's slow this movie down for a moment.

It's not the slowing down. It's like, I would have asked for another take from all of the mercenary actors. You didn't like jazz hands, mercenaries? I would have said, let's land it a little more naturally. You know? Like, hit the mark, but also make it look like you've been like jazz hands mercenaries. I would have said, let's land it a little more naturally. You know, like hit the mark, but also make it look like you've been here before. In general, I think with the exception of the big proton river pocket universe save, which I really was not fond of at all.

I thought most of the other big action set pieces were pretty effective. I think the big showdown near the end between Ultraman and the Engineer and Superman was pretty cool. Which, is that the one in the baseball field? Yeah, that was, and I think that's the Cleveland Stadium as well, I think. Oh, where the Guardians play. Okay. No, I thought that was great.

Is the Engineer the one with the whirring things who like magically finds whatever? She has, I guess, nanotech. We'll get to it. We'll get to it. She has, I guess, nanotech. We'll get to it. We'll get to it. Okay, we'll get to it. I also thought the Kaiju sequence was pretty funny. The idea of just like letting loose a little monster that would grow overnight and then it becoming...

And the fact that it wasn't like, that wasn't the big conclusion to the third act of this movie. It was like eight minutes in the movie just to show, like introduce new characters and to do the thing, which is like the movie is constantly trying to distract Superman from what's really going on in the world, which is itself a kind of load-bearing metaphor about how things work right now. And it was funny in the right way. Like the... at one point they're attacking the kaiju's

eyeballs and then they cut to a woman who's like both videoing it on her phone and grossed out. And I think if that had been like the only, you know, creature-based funny James Gunn thing, I would have been really into it and just keeps going. I will say that's like, that also has one of like five different dog moments in the, in the. I'm getting to crypto. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just wanted to identify that that's, that's one of them.

I don't even, is that crypto or is that another one? I think it was crypto. It does look like crypto. Yeah. Okay. No frills, delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders.

Shop now at nofrills.ca. This episode is brought to you by Adidas. When the frustration grows and the doubts start to creep in, we all need someone who has our back. To tell us we'll be okay. To remind us of our ability. To believe. Because their belief in us transfers to self-belief

and reminds us of all that we're capable of. We all need someone to make us believe. Hashtag, you got this. Here's what I wrote about what doesn't work. Okay. There is undoubtedly, and if this is me contradicting what I've just said for the last 45 minutes,

please tell me. Do I contradict myself? Uh. You know? Yes, I contain multitudes. There is an inherent tension between James Gunn's joker minute patter, the kind of tension-deflating dialogue with Superman's strong, silent iconography.

That Superman is a representation of an ability to endure. And that the movie wants to upset that expectation, but I think it's still ultimately at its best when it is just sincere. Mm-hmm. And when it is just Lois and Clark looking at each other being real and not making jokes and not being like, I was doing important stuff, you know, like the goofy lines

that Clark or Superman is constantly being fed throughout the movie. He's not Star-Lord. And I don't know how to rationalize this into James Gunn movie. Because I'm like, I don't want James Gunn to not be James Gunn. But whenever Superman said something like that, I was like, that's just stupid. That's just lame. That doesn't feel right.

He had a couple comedic moments as Clark that I did think really worked. I think Clark is a little different than... Or, but I guess even in the interview when he's Clark, but he's Superman, he's dressed as Clark, but he's being Superman. And Lois is like going back and forth. And she's like, do you think this is going well? And he's like, I think I'm doing a good job. And that's, you know, that is funny.

So there are moments to locate it. I didn't feel this tension as much with Superman himself, just because there weren't that many instances of it, as with the movie writ large. And I just, some of it might be that I don't think that James Gunn's sense of humor is ultimately that funny, or rather I think the pacing of it is really off. And this movie really extends all of the jokes

way past where they need to go. And part of me wondered whether that's a response to the kind of one-off, quippy nature of Marvel things. I mean, these are quippy, but it's like, quippy for a full minute. And we're not gonna do it once. We're gonna do it like four times. Yeah. And...

There's a sequence where Lois goes to confront the Justice Gang to try to encourage them to help her find Superman. And Nathan Fillion, who I think is pretty funny and is like a part of the troupe of James Gunn guys, is playing a very silly version of Guy Gardner. And everything he says is a gag. Is like, is it kind of self-attack on his own bluster.

Yeah. And it's a little tiring. It is also just like, once you have to diagram a joke, then you're in real trouble. But you could like diagram a lot of these jokes and they're like clauses and circling back and it just keeps going on and on and on. And it honestly feels like a little condescending.

I'm like, yeah, I get it. You know? It is his tone, you know? Totally. It's not untrue to what he's trying to accomplish. It just doesn't always work in this framework. There's a difference between the conception of the characters and then the execution of the dialogue.

Yes. And that's the thing that I think I kind of struggle with candidly the most in this movie. We did mention the kind of second act action sequence, which is, you know, not ideal. I do think the moment when Superman convinces Metamorpho to create a son to help him break through is very exciting. I mean, look at it.

I think like, here's the sentence that I never thought I would say out loud. The design of the black site itself in the Pocket universe is, I don't want to say cool, but effective. It's effective. And it works in that moment. And I did turn to you because there's an alien baby

who is, I get pissed off when they create these little cute, weird creatures to put in peril to make me feel bad. So I do feel bad every time. That alien does not look on my son's side. Your younger son. Yeah, my baby. So, it's something in, like, the size of the head compared to everything else. James Gunn touched your heart with his alien baby?

So, even that worked. Uh, though, like, then the baby was just fine, you know? Yeah, of course, that baby was never gonna get... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ...never really in peril. That's part of the reason why that sequence, I'm just like, there's no way James Gunn's gonna kill this baby in a Superman movie. Like, it's just not...

That part doesn't really work. And the last thing, we might get some hate mail for this, but I just thought crypto was annoying. And I didn't really like the dog stuff. Used too much. There were like five different moments. You only get one dog saves the day moment. See, Anchorman. The best one is like the last one,

but by then, you had it happen five times. You can't do that so many times. They did have to set it up, so there had to be one that was like that. There could have been one that set it up, and then the final retrieving the drones thing, the dog toy sequence. I thought that was really clever and worked well, but they just killed it the little way with that character. Yeah, just like too many, too much stuff.

Is Superman in this movie enough? No. But I wouldn't want this movie to be two and a half hours. I know exactly how to get more Superman and less junk, which is to get rid of all of your spin-off characters, respectfully. Goodbye. Yeah, you need them though. Or they come up for the kaiju,

and then they can show up in the stinger. Um, I, you need them because you need characters to save the day on the other side of the planet. So you cannot have those characters. It's an essential part of the conclusion of the movie. Do you have less of them? I don't know. Do they spend, do you spend less time with them? Maybe. Maybe. I do think that there, it does feel like there are times when Superman just

disappears. Now this happens in a lot of Superman movies where Superman is confronted by kryptonite and he kind of leaves the movie for 10 minutes because he can't move. Right. It's an old strategy. I mean, it's a Jesus 40 days in the desert type situation. because he can't move. Right. It's an old strategy. Yeah, it's a Jesus 40 days in the desert type situation. Yeah, it is. And so sometimes you just got to endure it.

It actually feels more explicit when you're in a comic book movie that is the right length. Right, yeah. Okay, so here's like, here's some of the bigger stuff. Okay. I don't actually know if I think this is something that doesn't work, but I would like to speak to you about it. Okay.

So the movie is legitimately interested, as we've said, in referencing real world events, historically significant disputes, fascism, the destructive power of the internet. Yes. Most of its conclusions about those things, Yes. Most of its conclusions about those things,

I think are ultimately become a kind of bromide in the vein of try to be a good person. Right. If you try, if you, if you're a good person, if you're decent, if you want others, if you want to be treated the way others, if you want to treat others, or you would want them to treat you. You know, like the golden rule of character design. That would solve some of these problems that we have in the world. Now, I'm not saying that's the only way it's looking at it, but Superman is still ultimately a very limited character. And so he can't get more...

He can't get deeper, which would be okay if the movie was not doing all the things I'm about to share with you. Okay. So... This movie is an immigrant parable. Like, we've clearly identified that. This is about a person coming from another place, joining our country and trying to live his life and even impose his values onto society. There are also significant parallels to Israel and Palestine.

It's undeniable that in even just the visual representation of Boravia, which is a militarized nation that is an ally of the United States, and Jarnapur, which is a nation that is clearly less advanced technologically and is full of brown people. Yes. So, you can't help but think of what we watch on the news every day while watching this. It's clearly intentional. There's also very clearly an aspect of Russia and Ukraine, and in terms of the sort of rights of a sovereign nation that have been impeded upon.

Right. And the characterization of the Arabian leader and his relationship to Lex Luther, who is standing in for both Stephen Miller and Elon Musk. Yes. The fact that he is sort of like funded backed by a tech billionaire and a US government official. That's the bald guy, by the way, from Triangle of Sadness, who is marooned, who plays the Bereavean president. I was trying to place him, but yeah, that makes sense now. So there's a little bit of Putin in there for sure?

Yeah, totally. You know, there's not really an effort in the movie to explore the nature of the conflict. Like is it tribal? Is it religious? Is it a border concern? How far back does it go? Like it's not giving you anything. Well, there's the, this speech, not the speech, but the interview between Lois and Superman as Clark Kent,

which, you know, is, I think, a deaf piece of screenwriting in a lot of ways, but the fact that I can't locate, is he Superman? Is he Clark? In that moment, like, he doesn't really know either, and that's interesting. But Lois is being the quote unquote journalist, but is also espousing like the counter narrative towards...

He's just like, I stopped a war. And like, why wouldn't I stop a war? And so she is explaining the various like diplomatic and or, you know, geopolitical concerns that you would read about in a paper of record, but that do often seem mired in, you know, national structures, as opposed to like basic humanity.

So even there, a little bit of the, it is echoing our media discourse as much as it is. In a very smart way, because Lois is forced, a little bit of the, it is echoing our media discourse as much as it is. In a very smart way, because Lois is forced maybe just out of concern for being sued to represent that point of view, even though as a person we know she doesn't believe that. But then like one scene later,

Lex Luthor leverages that concept, the idea of Superman breaking these treaties to do what he feels is right, to then gain power from the US government to do whatever he wants. Just pretty savvy stuff in a comic movie. I agree. Like, I honestly, I thought that part of it, at least, between Lois and Superman and Lex,

was, you know, was handled well in that it worked in the movie. I definitely thought about real-world stuff. But I wasn't like, oh, this doesn't work. I was just like, huh, you did that. Yeah. Yeah. And I see what you're doing. I kept, so, you know, Black Panther is also a movie that is very much about isolationism versus interventionism. Like that's, to me, that's the thing that elevates that movie out of the mire of your workaday comic book movie is that it really has things on its mind about national identity, what

class represents to people living in America versus living overseas, all this other stuff. This movie has some of that on its mind too. There's not a lot of other movies that get that deep into the ideas of the nation state. I couldn't tell if this movie ultimately lands on Superman's kind of Pollyanna, every human life is valuable point of view, is trying to represent like an unrealistic Obama era fallacy or what James Gunn actually believes, but maybe also recognizes is unsustainable given all of the structures, guardrails,

restrictions that define global interaction. You know, it's like, he put it on the table. I like how he put it on the table. Yeah, I don't think he really, he doesn't solve anything. He doesn't offer a solution, which, you know, I don't have a solution either. Of course, no one does, that's the problem. I'm not holding that against him.

I think, yeah, the movie does ultimately conclude, but like, with Superman is right. And Superman is vindicated with the help of his friends, who, you know, as you pointed out, they saved the conflict on the other end of the world so that he could... I don't know what he... I guess he's saving the universe. He's got a patch to the universe together.

I personally, I understand that the, like, the... the world splitting is, like, sort of an homage to the original Superman as well. But I could have done without that, and then maybe Superman could have just saved the... Pretty heavy metaphor about the division amongst us. Sure. Yeah. You're on one side, I'm on the other side

of the split planet. This is a movie about borders. I mean, it literally is. Yeah, I know. But anyway, they... The good... The people who believe in good and human life save human lives. And everybody else... What happens to everybody else? Do we know? What do you mean by everybody else?

Well, to like, to Lex Luthor, to the... Well, Lex is detained at the end of the film, likely sent to a prison of some kind. Right. He's hauled off by the military. Everyone else is released, and they take... People, all of the prisoners from the Pocket Universe are discovered and released.

Everything just kind of, they yada yada. It's like, we fixed it. We put it all back together. Right. Which... So basically, what we learn is that, like... believing in humanity is good. You see all of the people... Like, you see all the people of Jaranpur cheering. Yep.

And then that's it. And then, like, good luck to you, I guess? Yeah. I don't know. It doesn't mean that, like, Boravia no longer exists. Like, this is, in theory, this is a centuries-old conflict. And that's kind of my point, is like... I think it is... If not brave, at least interesting to try to represent these things in a movie like this. Because most people who make movies like this...

They got interested in this subject matter because they want to get away from the problems of the world. They're not interested in the problems of the world. They want to escape and they want to create art that is escapist. And I understand that and I think it has value. I like escapist fantasies as well, if done well and unsynically. We didn't mention the street vendor, sorry. Speaking of real world stuff and the most horrifying part of the movie.

Yeah, I mean, there is a character who is seen as the empathic human stand-in for everyone's relationship to Superman and the kind of like, our desire to, our innate desire to be good and to do good, which is what Superman is all about. And he goes to Superman to help him in a moment of need during a big battle in the first early part of the film. And then that character, who is not white and not born in America, presumably, the street card vendor, is then ultimately dragged into the conflict with

Lex Luthor and amidst a game of Russian roulette is murdered. Yeah. It's the only really truly bracing violence in the movie. And... And done, like, in wide shot. And is also what incites... Metamorpho. Yeah.

Though, you know, and I mean, and it is so upsetting that that rather than the peril of his cute alien baby son is what gets him into the mix, which again, I like had some... Metamorpho not developed his character. I really enjoy Anthony Carrigan. He's one of two actors from the TV series Barry that are featured prominently in this film, in addition to the guy who's working with Frank Grillo

in the government, I can't recall the actor's name, he's a really good actor. He played one of Barry's buddies from the military. the government, I can't recall the actor's name, he's a really good actor. He played one of Barry's buddies from the military. Um, I, I, you know, I think that that's a, not a hard one to understand. And I think the point is taken, which is like, black site. Torture like Abu Graib style, um, torture and, and, and murder is horrible and creates like a global precedent that is terribly devastating

for our ability to be a country that in theory represents profound values. I think that's a little different than saying like, I'm going to make a movie that looks like Israel and Gaza and tell you that if everybody is a little bit more nice, then we can solve it. It's like, it's kind of right on the edge of representing that. Yeah, no, I mean, it is. I mean, I guess it's... It's smaller and larger scale than the...

The movie does not really get its arms around the modern stuff. We should also say that, you know, the script was... We are drawing things to the present moment and also the present moment has been happening in one way or another for our entire lives. But it's like, the movie isn't looking at today's newspaper, you know, or even last week, just because of when it was made.

Um, so... But I agree. I also hesitated at the final shots just of, like of everyone cheering with no follow-up. And then just, you know, another white superhero flies off and it's like, yay, we did it. And now I'm gonna crack some jokes. I do admire...

Do I admire or am I at least impressed that he raises the questions? And... I frankly appreciate it. I just think it is... I do as well. It is a Saturday morning cartoon though, that's why. It's because it is like, the good guys win, and we will go forward. And there will be another episode next Saturday, see you then.

Yeah. And like I said, I don't have at least all the answers. So I don't expect the movie to have them either, but it does feel like if you're gonna go there, then... I don't know. I guess you're right. It feels a bit reductive at the end. Yeah, not a bit.

It's extremely reductive. It's extremely reductive. It's extremely reductive. It's not the movie's responsibility to represent those ideas in a sophisticated way, but once you introduce them, you do have a responsibility to have more nuance. And so I'm kind of not holding it against, it didn't bother me.

No. I expected it to be that way. It's a comic book movie. But I've spent a lot of time thinking about this movie since we've seen it, and it is something that ultimately, I think holds me back from outright proclaiming this as like my perfect vision of a comic book film. There could be a perfect vision of a comic book film that doesn't introduce any real world aspects, you know?

Or at least not so overtly that we can just draw conclusions. And you know what? A huge swath of the audience and maybe even a large portion of the audience listening to the show right now is like, I didn't see any of that stuff in this movie, guys. And I accept that. People do go to the movies to be distracted

or to be taken away from these very challenging things. But James Gunn is thinking about it. He's thinking hard about it. So, and he's worked, you know, he had to do a lot of structural work to make all these things fit inside of his movie. We haven't even gotten to the point that you've made in the doc, too, about this being about an evil tech lord billionaire. You know, like, we went to an Amazon-sponsored screening

a week after Jeff Bezos'... Did we? ...wedding. Yeah, the screening we went to last night was Regal and Amazon present. Oh, I didn't. I missed... And Lex Luthor's in this movie. Yeah. You know, it's like credit to James Gunn

for just leaning directly into it. Now, I will say Zack Snyder did something very similar. His Lex Luthor was very similar to the Jesse Eisenberg one. Right. I mean, like at this point, a tech billionaire without much hair and with a lot of bad ideas and, you know, self-confidence-ish problems is not novel. No, it's probably the easiest villain

you could sketch at this point. I thought the way that Lex Luthor, like his tech was like pointed and interesting. He is like, he is using drones and it says, you know, and by the way, like when you look at the screen, it says like drone three or something, just so people are really aware that yes, we want you to understand that these are drones

and these are people who are outsourcing and not thinking about the real, or not dealing with the realities of their actions. There was also like a very video game quality to the way that he was operating all of his minions. Well, I want to talk about that too. I think there's an interesting component of that, which is that Lex has studied all of Superman's actions, and then this is a heavy spoiler, but one of the big reveals at the end of the film is that,

not just that, but he has also cloned Superman as close as he can to create Ultraman, which is essentially a clone that can do battle with Superman, and Lex literally is determining the moves that he is making, the fight patterns that he is creating to beat Superman. And one of the things that he is making, the fight patterns that he is creating to beat Superman. And one of the things that went to my mind when I was watching this was sort of like

the old now settled debate about saber metrics versus the feel for the game in baseball, you know, where it was like, you can't math your way through being on the diamond, you know? And the movie kind of has a little bit of that, like, just looking at the data doesn't solve problems for you. You have to be a person in the world. And Superman is a person, and his problem solving

was superior to the billionaire who wouldn't get close to the fight. I wouldn't say it's fully thought through, that part of it. And then also, which culminates in a speech of Superman being like, I'm a human and that's what makes me special. And which, like, I'm a human and that's what makes me special. And which like is like so cheesy, but in the moment I was like, well, this is kind of working for me. And then he's appealing to Lexus humanity. And then in that like heavily computerized,

like drone context that they're all in, you're also definitely thinking about AI at some point, even though I don't really think there is any stated artificial intelligence, like in the fabric of Lex's like arsenal, but it's all kind of implied. I agree. Yeah.

It's doing a lot this movie. There's a lot going on. Yeah. And frankly, I'm here for it, man. That's why I'm just like, did I need a pocket universe? No. There needed to be a second act struggle. There needed to be something in the design of a comic book movie

or an event movie like this. That's fine, just make it in the real world. I didn't love how they did it. It's really the only thing that I actively didn't like. Yeah. When Superman is floating down a proton river, holding a baby, I was like, this isn't the movie I wanna be watching.

We were in Metropolis. That was cool. I was having so much fun. Why can't that be in the real world? Why can't it be like a horrific actual prison in the United, and somewhere in the world? We know there are many of them. It's a creative choice.

I mean, Gunn's partner, Peter Safran, is the producer of this movie. He's the co-president of the DC brand of the company. I presume they had a lot of autonomy to make this movie. It certainly feels like it. It doesn't feel like a movie that's been noted to death. It doesn't feel like a movie that's been hacked to pieces, which is very different from a lot of the superhero movies

we've been seeing recently. It has a kind of consistent tone, and it's taking a couple of chances. It's not reliant on megastar power. It's not trying to trick you into thinking something matters, because it's like a couple of chances. It's not reliant on megastar power. It's not trying to trick you into thinking something matters because it's like a famous person, like Angelina Jolie is an eternal, so it matters somehow. Like, it's not like that.

So it is kind of a unique product, even though it is still a very corporate product. I just remember that I had a dream last night that I had a book reading, and Angelina Jolie was there, and she performed a song. Anyway. You were reading from your book? Or I was like, debuting it. I don't remember what the book was about. Oh, a song. Anyway. You were reading from your book? Or I was like debuting it. I don't remember what the book was about.

Oh, my gosh. Novel or nonfiction. I don't remember. I don't know. And it was like maybe not written also. We gotta get you back to bed. Yeah. But then, but Angelina Jolie sort of saved the book party. Anyway, thank you to her. Can we talk about the ending?

Yes. The two endings? Sure. So the first, which should have been the ending, which is Lois and Superman making out and then flying. Great moment. Wonderful. And I was like, oh, you did it. You nailed it. And then we had to go,

we had to tack another thing on. We went back to the Fortress of Solitude, where the robots who managed that space had been repaired. They were destroyed by the engineer in the film. And, uh... Oh, yeah, the engineer, I didn't get it. Thanks. That's my take. I kind of liked it.

But I also didn't think the CGI quite got there. I thought that was the AI component of the movie. Oh, yes. A person who is becoming subhuman and is essentially effectively being controlled. Oh, one more thing. I also... Just like, they kept being like, no, the tape is real.

We know it's real. The army doesn't get it wrong. And I was like, come on. The tape from his parents. Yeah, we live in like deep fake, you know, America. I thought they were gonna pivot back to that. They never did. They never did.

They were just like, we know. The thing I liked about that part of it was that in my understanding and in Marlon Brando's representation of this character and many other, you know, Jor-El, Superman's father, is just kind of like a patrician blowhard. You know, and he's just like, Kryptonians, we're the best. And so the idea that he would be communicating to his son,

like, you should dominate these weak soy boys in America, that's kind of funny. Also, the Bradley Cooper stunt casting is fantastic and very funny. Yes, and immediately, as soon as I saw that, I Bradley Cooper stunt casting is fantastic and very funny. Yes, and immediately, as soon as I saw that, I was like, this is gonna be good. Whatever my concerns were, they've been alleviated. Yeah.

The second ending, Supergirl Shows Up. Yeah. Played by Millie Alcock, who is one of the stars of, was one of the stars of the first season of House of the Dragon. Right. And the Supergirl movie, I think, is the third movie, maybe the second movie in the DCU. I can't recall if Clayface is coming before it.

No. Supergirl is dated for June 26. So a year from now, we're getting a Supergirl movie, regardless of the success of this movie, directed by Craig Gillespie, director of I, Tanya, Pam and Tommy, Cruella, Lars and the Real Girl. Let me see how many Craig Gillespie movies I can remember off the top of my head.

I would say a talented but annoying director of movies. Has incredible visual style, but I am often extremely enervated watching his movies. Sure. I mean, it's me, but for James Gunn. So, and listen, and we like, we figured it out, you know? I just, every time I watch a Craig Gillespie movie, I'm like, I know you've seen Goodfellas.

Like, I get it. Like, you know, the editing style, the needle drops, like, I get it. This is like... He directed Dumb Money, the movie we saw recently, a couple years ago. The movie about the GameStop stock story. This is how I feel about the Supergirl thing, which in addition to being set up and whatever,

Millie Aukok seemed funny. She and David Cornsworth had comedic timing or whatever. Cousin energy. But then we have to sit and it's like, he wants to watch the tape of his family and then it's home videos from his Kansas parents. And I was like, yeah, yeah, you're James Gunn. You believe in family. Like, found family.

We get it. We get it. We get it. So I was annoyed by that. Yeah, you know, one of the first things I Googled when I got home, and I knew the answer to this, but I just wanted to be sure was, does James Gunn have kids? And he doesn't have kids. He doesn't. And I have no comment about him not having kids.

But the fact that he consistently returns to stories about found families, I find interesting, fascinating. And especially because he also, you know, his wife is one of the stars of the Peacemaker TV series. Peacemaker makes a very funny cameo in this movie. That's the John Cena character who shows up talking shit. That's a really good show. So his wifeo in this movie. That's the John Cena character who shows up talking shit. That's a really good show.

So his wife appears in his work. His brother Sean Gunn appeared in all the Guardians movies, appears in most of his movies, and he also very briefly appears as Maxwell Lord in this movie, who is the character that Pedro Pascal played in Wonder Woman 2. Maxwell Lord, I don't know if you clocked this, it's done very quickly,

but he is the billionaire who funds the Justice Gang. So Hawkeyeurl and Mr. Terrific and Green Lantern are all kind of working for Lordcore. So James Gunn does kind of work with his family. Yeah, I wanna be very clear that I think found families in real life are great. And I just thought this was like sentimental gilding the lily at the very end. I understood that Superman, he has a lovely scene with his dad

and then his mom, like, back in Kansas. And then it's like, I get it. You know, you have found these people and they taught you how to be a man. I didn't need the ice fortress. Like, the... What's the... What's Don Draper's... The speech... The fortress of solitude. No! Don Draper at the end of Mad Men, he gives the pitch and it's about the slideshow thing.

And then he's like, nostalgia is the Greek word for whatever. It's called the carousel. There we go. Yeah. I didn't need it. I got it. I got you. Um, I like seeing Pruitt Taylor Vance and Neva Howell, who I'd never seen before, who played Ma Kent and Pruitt Taylor Vance from the James Mangold movie, Heavy, and a lot of stuff over the years, great character actor.

And the choice even to make Ma and Pa not beautiful. Yeah. You know, like Kevin Costner and Diane Lane were Ma and Pa in Hand of Steel. And they look like they could have given birth to Henry Cavill. Yeah. This is a normal family, normal farmers in Kansas.

And I think elevates, like, kind of like, alien aspect of the story. So I like that too. What else? Anything else? So much easier to do this when you've just seen the movie. The stinger. So we sat there like assholes. I know, and I really thought he wasn't gonna do it. I really hoped he wasn't gonna do it.

I thought that would have been an interesting way to fully sever from the MCU era to say, you know what, we don't do stingers. We don't treat our audiences like clapping seals waiting to be fed another fish treat. We trust that you sat down to watch the movie, and then when it's over, it's over. But they did do a stinger.

Yeah. Which was mild. It was just for comedy? Was it setting up something that I didn't understand? Not that I know of, but it's possible. I would say Superman lore is not my specialty. OK, what is your specialty? X-Men.

OK, that's it? So we haven't, you mean we've been doing this for like 20 years now, and I haven't really lived through your, well, your lore special, like... Yeah, I think that's right. Area of interest? Yeah, I mean, we have been doing this for like 20 years now and I haven't really lived through your, your lore special, like... Yeah, I think that's right. Area of interest. Yeah, I mean, we have been having getting those movies,

but they just haven't been very, I mean, I feel like... Dark Phoenix, sure, yeah. Dark Phoenix came out when the show was around. Chris and I had a very angry pot about that movie. Right. So when are the X-Men... Days of Future Past might have been, might have come out. When we were making this. When are the X-Men coming?

I would imagine 2028, 2029. Okay. So, I'll be dead by then. So, not a big deal. Um, I... am very curious to see how this movie performs. The reviews have been pretty good. Mm-hmm.

Pretty positive. I think Gunn, aside from the strong anti-Snyder contingent, which obviously that's another aspect of this experience that the film is kind of gently mirroring is the division between not my Superman and very excited about the future. I have been following some box office analysts who have been suggesting that this is one of those kinds

of movies where good reviews help. Okay. That good reviews push up, walk up business. Yeah, because then all you need is, I heard Superman's pretty good. Yes, exactly. That's it. That word of mouth. And again, it's named Superman, and then it's pretty good.

So people are like, okay, I'll go see Superman. You're not here mad today, which I think is a big accomplishment for the movie Superman. Yeah, totally. I was even interested in half of it, yeah. Whether or not you ever interested in another DCU movie is... will be interesting. We have the list here. We do.

So we've got Supergirl, we've got Clayface, which is coming out on September 11th. What's that about? 25th anniversary, geez. Clayface is actually an interesting character that might be appealing to you. He, it's a movie about a, or it's a story about, it's a Batman villain who was a Hollywood actor.

Oh, okay. Who uses, um, gosh, I don't want to get this wrong, like a special clay to transform into other people. So it's one part like Lon Chaney, Man of a Thousand Faces. One part like trying to keep your age and your beauty with these kinds of influencer style products. And it's written by Mike Flanagan, who is best known for his horror work.

And I think they're trying to make a standalone horror movie James Watkins directed, Speak No Evil. Oh, interesting. Who's playing Clayface? It's an actor that I have never heard of before, but has done some television work. I was just talking with some friends about this. Let me see if I can get his name right. I found this to be a really weird choice for the third movie. This is not. So this isn't going to be on the box office level of Superman.

It's clearly a much smaller, it probably is like a $50 million movie, but in a way I'm like, that's cool. That's cool. That's cool that they're doing this. So Tom Reese Harrys is the actor's name. Handsome fellow. Okay.

He most recently appeared in The Return, starring Ralph Fiennes and Juliette Binoche. He was on Doctor Who. Okay. Cool. So let's talk about the Luca Guadagnino Sergeant Rock thing. What's so... I've read the headlines and I've never clicked through. Because I kind of don't want to acknowledge. Daniel Craig exited.

Daniel Craig exited. It's unclear if this movie is happening now. Listen, I love Luca. Love Keretskis. I like it when they work together. You know. What... So what is... Who is Sergeant Rock? Well, he's a military figure that was developed in, I want to say, the late 50s. Okay.

And a lot of it was... You know, so many of these characters are responses to one another. So this is not quite the DC's version of Captain America, but has some some strains of that. It's a kind of a combination of Captain America and Nick Fury put into one guy. It doesn't seem like this movie is gonna happen. Okay. So I don't I don't want to spend too much time on it. James Mangold is writing and directing a Swamp Thing movie. I think that's happening. Okay. What's up with Swamp Thing?

Swamp Thing is a scientist who, due to an explosion in a chemical lab, transformed at a lab that is located near the swamp, becomes a kind of half plant, half man figure. Cool. located near the swamp becomes a kind of half plant, half man figure. There was a Wes Craven version of the movie in like 1982 starring Adrian Barbo. It is very memorable to me as a child. Not a very good movie, but it's a movie. The Brave and the Bold would be a Batman movie. What's weird about that is that there are already Batman movies and I heard that Matt Reeves handed in his Batman 2 script and it's very good.

People were really, really deadline shaming Matt Reeves. How did you feel about that as an editor? I think that I felt bad for Matt Reeves even though you do gotta hit your deadlines. And apparently it was a long time in development, but it seems hard to write a script. It just seems like the other people needed to not be involved. Forgive the comic book dork aspect of this question, but Gunn in the Rolling Stone interview was like, this isn't gonna happen, but I'm also not saying

it's not gonna happen. I'm not, I don't, Robert Pattinson's Batman is not going into David Coren's sweat Superman world, but maybe it is. Like he kind of played that game a little bit in the interview where he was like, I'll never say never. Now the tone, obviously of the Matt Reeves Batman movie and of James Gunn, Superman are wildly different. The color palette, the energy, the music, the framework of the world doesn't,

they don't make sense together. And yet I would like to see it. The color palette, the energy, the music, the framework of the world, they don't make sense together. And yet, I would like to see it. I would too. Team Robert Pattinson. And I would like to see Robert Pattinson and David Cornswede in a movie together. I'll bet you would.

Yeah. In the suits and not the suits. Also, shouldn't the tone of Superman and Batman independently be very different? Isn't that honoring their characters? This is how you do it. Also, shouldn't the tone of Superman and Batman independently be very different? Isn't that honoring their characters? This is how you do it. And this is then you have to find someone who sees the whole board?

This is how you do it. Yeah. I think they should do that. Now, a lot of these films feel- Why do you know that The Brave and the Bold would be a Batman movie? That's the title of a Batman run. What happens in it?

I can't remember. Okay. Andy Machete is attached to that movie. He directed The Flash. a Batman movie? That's the title of a Batman run. What happens in it? I can't remember. Okay. Andy Machete is attached to that movie. He directed The Flash. I don't think that's going to happen. Yeah. Okay. There's a Teen Titans movie. There's a Bane and Deathstroke movie.

There's a Wonder Woman. There will be a Wonder Woman movie for sure. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not sure about the DCU. I'm glad we got this movie in the form that we did. I think this movie is going to make $150 million at the DCU. I'm glad we got this movie in the form that we did. I think this movie is gonna make 150 million dollars at the box office. This weekend?

Yeah. Okay. So that would be a lot and here's why. Here's the Superman box office history. Batman versus Superman Dawn of Justice, which is your favorite Superman film, made 330 million dollars. They wear a lot of vests. They do. Ben Affleck is in it. Um, that came out in 2016. That $330 million is the most domestically for any Superman movie. OK. Behind it, Man of Steel 290.

Yeah. Then Superman Returns, starring Brandon Routh and Kevin Spacey, made 200. Don't remember that. The Donner film made 134. Superman 2 made 108. Superman 359.

And Superman 4, which is now Fiasco, made 15. Okay. You predicted 410 million domestic in our summer movie preview. I predicted 257. Now, I obviously undershot. I don't know how much I undershot.

I'm super curious to see where this goes. We'll see. I mean, the thing is that we still don't have... Last year, Wolverine and... Deadpool did 600-something domestic. Yep. And went over a billion globally. Yeah. Meaning we haven't had a movie like that. Yes.

If this movie goes over a billion, it will be the first... It'll be the first Superman movie to go over a billion. I think it'll be the first superhero movie not named Deadpool and Wolverine since Spider-Man No Way Home took over a billion. It might be. That's very rare now. It used to be very common. Right.

Remember when Captain Marvel just made a billion dollars even though it was trash? I don't. It did. It did? Yeah. Did how much? Aquaman made a billion dollars. Well, that I remember.

But you know, that's just a... That movie was fun. That's That's at Christmas and you guys just like, you go and you're underwater. Not Chris, though. That's true. That's what happened, yeah. Chris didn't go. He'll never go underwater. He'll never know the way of water. That's what we know.

Unfortunately for him. Someone suggested that we do a watch along, Avatar the Way of Water. Oh, okay. Would you do it? Yeah, sure. Pajakon, member of the whale. Yeah, that was very beautiful. And then I, like, when we couldn't explain what was going on with Sigourney Weaver, but like

it's cool stuff that's going on. I love it. I think it's interesting. Yeah, I know. It's great. I mean, we just we got to figure out the watch along logistics in a way where I can be comfortable. Okay. We'll get you a couch.

We'll get you a fainting couch. And we need snacks and stuff. I took Superman in the auction this week. Yeah. Which I now feel pretty good about. I asked you yesterday, two days ago, Oscar's Superman. What about now? I mean, what is James Gunn's history?

I don't think he has a single Oscar nomination. This, like, I have to be honest. I, we talked about mostly what is good about this. And even the stuff where we're like, we're not really sure if he landed the plane on, um, the real world geopolitical stuff. But... even the things that don't work,

we talked about them in mostly positive ways. There, like, there is a lot of space junk in this movie. There is just straight up at least 45 minutes of garbage looking space junk. And I don't know if you get that past people. You know, he was nominated for best adapted screenplay by the Writers Guild of America in 2015 for Guardians. You remember when Guardians came out, it was like, holy shit, this is actually good.

And I think there is affection for him. That's cool, but they, you know, the writers guild and the Oscars don't always line up. They definitely don't. Yeah. They definitely don't. I don't think this is being nominated for best picture or anything like that, but I'm kind of curious even for below the line stuff.

You think below the line? Yeah. Maybe, some of it looks good and some of it like really doesn't. And so, you know, like if you want visual effects or whatever, you still have to sit through the black hole. You're right. You're right about that. It's tough. Any concluding thoughts?

Uh, I, you know, it seems good. It was good. I'm not mad. I'm not mad. Yeah, I could tell you were not mad last night, even though we did the thing where we don't speak after we've seen a movie. We're like, we'll see you tomorrow. See you in the pod room. Which is a bummer, because we saw it in the SGV, and then we could have just like gone to dinner. We could have.

And that would have been delicious. That would have been really late to be eating spicy... Spicy food, yeah. No, it's true. We are too old for that. Yeah. If I eat spicy food after 10 p.m., I will die. Yeah. I will cease to eat. Well, you can't eat spicy food. In general, I can.

That's like, anyone looking at you will not be surprised to learn that, but yeah. I do really like it. And it really disagrees with me. Yeah, but you turn away at this point. Yeah. I can go in. I know, you have more of a tolerance for it.

What do you think, because I'm a white man? Is that the issue? It's true. Someone once put that we look like we don't like any spices on our food, which I think is pretty rude. That we both do? Yeah. I mean, I do love spices on my food. I just, my stomach can't handle them. Yeah. My stomach can.

Okay. Well, shout out to you. Thank you. Superman? I don't know. Probably not a lot of spices. Well, as we know, there's an attempt to disrupt his organs near the end of the film with the nanobytes. Sure. You know, they try to infest his soul. I hated that. Yeah, it was all right.

And I didn't really understand how he solved it, but whatever. He just smashed it off. I think the idea was that he was stronger than their science. Okay, well, I can't really endorse that take, but, you know, maybe... Superman makes America healthy again.

I was gonna say, there could be some raw milk in the picture, and I just, I don't endorse that, but I believe science and doctors. Okay. So next week, you're not on Monday. Yeah, that's right, because you didn't trust me to be nice about this, or because you just want to do lore. I... Yeah, that's right. Because you didn't trust me to be nice about this. Or because you just want to do lore.

I... I think that's fine. I don't think that you want to have to watch seven Superman movies. That was my thinking. Yeah, totally not. So, next Monday, me and Van Lathan and Rob Mahoney will talk about this Superman movie,

talk about the box office, talk about the reception of the film in general, and we'll rank every Superman movie. Now, talk about the box office, talk about the reception of the film in general, and we'll rank every Superman movie. Now, for those listening at home, that includes Superman, Richard Donner, Superman II as directed by Richard Lester, Superman II, The Donner Cut,

a recut version with Richard Donner's intended outcome, Superman III, Superman IV, Superman Returns, Superman Man of Steel, Superman versus Batman, Dawn of Justice, Batman versus Superman, Superman Returns, Superman Man of Steel, Superman versus Batman Dawn of Justice, Batman versus Superman Dawn of Justice, who got first billing there? I think Batman did. Batman did.

Ben Affleck did. And then Justice League, Yeah. And Justice League, the Snyder Cut. Whew. Or Zack Snyder's Justice League is how I believe it's titled. Now I don't know how many of those I'm gonna revisit. Some of them.

I've already watched Superman one and two. So one was, what's that Terry, Lois and Clark, the TV series was Terry Hatcher and then that guy. So that's not in the... That's not part of this nor is Smallville. Oh yeah. There has also been very recently another Lois and Clark series. Okay. That people were quite fond of. Smallville. Oh, yeah. There has also been very recently another

Lois and Clark series. Okay. That people were quite fond of. Okay. But was recently canceled, I think, by Max. Wasn't me. Shift back to HBO Max, how do you feel about that? Fine.

I never deleted the original app. So do I have to download a new app? Yeah, you have to download the Luther core app. You have to get all his tech on your phone. And you have to accept all the cookies. Okay, something that they told us. All right. And you have to use face ID. And no, I won't. We have to use face. People are using biometrics at Spotify now. What do you mean? I apparently you

can log in with biometrics. Sure, that makes sense. Not my biometrics. You don't use a fingerprint on your laptop? No! Okay. That is a company owned device. Absolutely not. Interesting. They have to pay me a lot more for my biometrics.

But what about when you were arrested on January 6th and you were fingerprinted? It's not there. Okay. You weren't there. No, but I did. But you were rooting along at home. When I worked at Conde Nast, I did, it was at the World Trade Center, so they had to fingerprint all of us.

So you're in those out there. I'm in, but I don't. You need to be like John Doe from Seventh and start cutting off your fingerprints. Yeah, I'm not doing that. Don't you feel like the pod just started? Okay. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. We will see you next week with Rob and Ben.