The Big Picture - Taylor Sheridan, 'Wind River,' and How to Write a Killer Movie | The Big Picture (Ep. 20)

Episode Date: August 4, 2017

The Ringer’s Sean Fennessey and Chris Ryan discuss screenwriter Taylor Sheridan’s films ‘Sicario,’ ‘Hell or High Water,’ and his new film, ‘Wind River,’ starring Jeremy Renner (0:40). Then, Sean and Sheridan discuss 'Wind River,' how he depicts raw and realistic scenarios in his movies, and why he decided to get behind the camera (11:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, you're listening to The Big Picture, which is a part of the Ringer Podcast Network. And today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Talk the Thrones. Make sure to watch The Ringer's new live reaction show, Talk the Thrones, each week as Andy Greenwald, Mother of Dragons Mal Rubin, Chris Ryan, and our very own Maester Jason Concepcion are coming to you live after the East Coast airings of Game of Thrones, every episode of Season 7. Talk the Thrones will stream exclusively on Twitter and Periscope right after each episode ends and can be found on the Ringer's Twitter handle, at Ringer. They'll be reacting at the same time as you, contextualizing the events and explaining

everything that just unfolded. Again, the show is called Talk the Thrones. You can stream it live after the East Coast airings of GOT Season 7 on our Twitter and Periscope at Ringer. Welcome to The Big Picture. My name is Sean Fennessey. I'm the editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and we have a really great show today because we are joined by the writer of two of my favorite movies of the last few years, Sicario and Hell or High Water.

His name's Taylor Sheridan, and also he's a director now. He has a new movie called Wind River starring Jeremy Renner and Elizabeth Olsen out this Friday but before that I'm joined by the sicario-ologist the doyen of the drug war that's right the executive editor of the ringer Chris Ryan what's up Chris what's going on man Chris you love Taylor Sheridan's movies uh yes I do what we want to find out is whether I love them for Taylor Sheridan

Or the people who make them What do you mean by that? Well, I too love Sicario And I love Hell or High Water But I want to find out with Wind River Which I have not yet seen Am I reacting to two very, very fine directors Interpreting his work

Or am I reacting literally to his script? So this is something that Taylor and I talked about a little later in the show. And it is an interesting thing because Wind River is a little bit different from his first two screenplays. And, you know, we should talk about those, these three movies. He has said, this is a trilogy about the American frontier. Sicario is about the drug war. Hell or high water is essentially about poverty in Texas. Wind River is about violence against women in Native American Wyoming on reservations. So these are three different ideas, but they're about sort of

ignored communities or problems that we don't want to look at or deal with. And you mentioned these two filmmakers on his first two screenplays, which, gosh, damn, that's really good luck to get Denis Villeneuve on your first movie and David McKenzie on your second. Absolutely. Yeah. Wind River is a little different, though. It's a little bit slower. It's a little bit more meditative. It's a little bit more, frankly, tragic and purposefully so. But, you know, one thing that I've been talking to some people about with Sheridan is the first two movies that you love are these really propulsive, aggressive stories, you know, like tell me about what's so great about Sicario, which

as you have memorialized on your podcast, The Watch is a film of great importance to you. Yeah, I think it's Villeneuve making a art film out of a war film and militarizing something that I think most of us think of as a crime story, right? So it becomes this almost apocalypse now. I mean, this has been used a lot, but this idea that it's basically the apocalypse now of the drug war, that you have an audience cipher who goes down the river with these people on the metaphorical boat and just keeps going further and further into

the jungle, in this case, the desert. So Emily Blunt's character thinks she has a moral compass, and she thinks she understands what she will or won't do to get the result that she wants. And she meets these two men, played by Benicio Del Toro and Josh Brolin, who are dissuader of those notions of what is up and what is down, and what is right and what is wrong. But ultimately, it was the calling card for Villeneuve. If you've seen Enemy, if you've seen Prisoners, it was just the perfect marriage of this guy

who is probably the most stylish, active director working. Just every shot is this sumptuous, creeping, dreadful picture with this really bare-knuckled, terse, noir-ish script that found some nuance in characters that I think in lesser hands could just be archetypes, just bad stereotypes. And what about Hill or High Water, which I'm not sure you and I have ever really discussed that movie, but is slightly different and not, I would say it's certainly as masculine, but maybe not as metaphorical. You know, that's a bank robber movie, basically, about two brothers who are trying to raise enough money to buy back their mother's foreclosed farm.

Well, that's another case where I think that McKenzie makes this really interesting choice to essentially depopulate the frontier. You know, in a way, when you look at that movie, most of the scenes are you have these incredible picturesque landscapes and there's like one or two people there, you know? And part of that is obviously it's just a different, it's a different, you know, density of population in the West anyway, but there's a real feeling like you're watching ghosts and you're watching these, like it's these guys who are the last few occupants of a ghost town. And that ghost town is the West. It's Texas. It's these places that used to have oil or used to have industry or used to have small towns that were self-sufficient and now are just essentially like a diner, a pawn shop and a liquor store and a

church. Yeah, it's funny. And that movie in particular, there was a lot of comparison to Trump's America and how this is an iteration of, you know, red state abandonment and the people who are forgotten and what the actions that they take to avenge the way that the country has treated them. And, you know, Taylor has talked about this in the past about how, you know, some of that could be reflected and some of that is a bit overblown. And he's thinking more specifically about people and not about politics. You know, Wind River, I think, is a very similar sort of story. It could be a very politicized story. And he's gotten a lot of credit for casting thoughtfully. And he shoots this story through the eyes of a

white protagonist played by one of your favorite actors. We'll talk about him in a minute. But it's an interesting choice. And he mentioned to me that he thought it would have been irresponsible to try to write the story from the perspective of the Native American characters, which makes sense, though they play a huge part in the story and I would say are not marginalized at all. But the white man in question is Jeremy Renner. And you love Jeremy Renner. I do. I mean, I think Jeremy Renner is a really interesting test case of someone who probably isn't magnetic enough to play Captain America, but is still famous enough to be in the Avengers. And because of that has taken up a lot of his time with being in Mission Impossible and being in the Avengers and being in, you know, Hansel and Gretel, Witch Hunter or whatever the hell that was called.

And hasn't really appeared in enough movies like The Town and Hurt Locker and The Immigrant. You know, these movies are happening too infrequently for my taste for how good I think he is in them. He brings a real like stoic humanity that reminds me a lot of guys like Robert Ryan. Like these great face, great silent actor that doesn't does a lot with a little. And it's just a really inventive guy. And the best kind of combination of those two are the movie that I am pretty much on an island about being obsessed with, which is Bourne Legacy, which I think he's excellent in. But he's a really interesting person where it's like came out of Hurt Locker,

obviously picked up a lot of franchise work, and essentially, I think it's really important to understand, was supposed to take over Mission Impossible yes which explains a lot about what's happening in some ways he has been tied up with the Mission Impossible movies I don't think he's in the new one and the Avengers movies and the Avengers movies too he has been the most disgruntled member of that ensemble he has the worst powers you know he's a good archer but he's it sounds like he's also like, they put me in front of this green screen. I have no idea what part of the script I'm reading. I just say what they tell me to say

and then I get out of there. But, you know, they've never been like, he had his kind of a moment in Age of Ultron, but like, I think for the most part. You mean when they went back to the farmhouse? Yeah. With Linda Cardellini? Yeah.

Yeah, that was a moment. Yeah, but that's like seven years of his life to get one scene with Linda Cardellini. It's like, think about all the other movies he could have, couldn't have made. Now, he may kill the messenger. There's stuff in his filmography. He's great in Arrival.

But I think it's just, it's tough. You know, he hasn't really, I think he's an example of the bad side of actors getting too locked down by these, hey, we're going to need you for eight months every other year, nine months every other year. So that's interesting the way you describe him too. I would say Wynn River, regardless of what you think of the movie, is a great use of his talent because he's very taciturn. He's very masculine. And he is like – he's a person that you believe as a skill set guy you

know he's like he does one thing really well sure you know he can be Ethan Hunt's number two he can be a master archer in this movie he plays a predator tracker oh and killer great which you can imagine how his skills come into play in a movie in which he has to hunt down murderers. But there is something still a little bit vacant or absent. And in this movie, it makes a lot of sense because he's kind of a hollowed out guy who's had a very difficult and troubled family past. But for me personally, I've never quite been on the on the renter train okay way that you have been um in part because I think he he's been unable to save movies like kill the messenger in the past which on paper is catnip for me and then if he can't sell it then it won't work but maybe and maybe

that's why he's not yeah maybe hunt number two yeah I mean a lot of the times it's like it's not necessarily like you know I do do think to some extent the market determines your value and like he probably could make a lot more out of the franchise appearances he's had there are other people in mission impossible movies who are on the screen for a lot less time than him who are like i'm gonna have a ton of fun while i'm doing this that's the thing i think i think he has a fun problem yeah and that's not necessarily a bad thing robert i would never describe robert ryan as a fun fun actor yeah right exactly. But by making the choice that you say you make, he

has to be Hawkeye now for another five years. Can I ask you one quick Sheridan question before you get into the interview? Do you feel like he pulled more from Sicario, Hell or High Water? What is his style in his first time behind the director's chair?

It's way more John Ford. It's way more the big open vistas and the snowy mountains and one man's struggle against another. And it's a very moral, quiet, tragic movie that then in the final act turns into this explosive combination of the best parts of Sicario and Hell or High Water. I would say the movie is completely worth it for the ending. Okay.

So, yeah. I mean, Chris, thank you for coming in and sharing your expertise on the truth about masculinity in movies and about Jeremy Renner. That's great. And now let's go to my interview with director, writer Taylor Sheridan. Taylor, how are you, man? Good, man. How are you doing? I'm really good. Thank you for taking the time out. I know you're a busy man.

Oh, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. So listen, Taylor, Wind River completes the trilogy that you started with Sicario and later had Hell or High Water. And you've said these movies are about the American frontier. And I'm curious about these three movies together. Were they written as a piece or did they come at separate times as a writer? I wrote Sicario first. They were written in the order they're coming out. You know, I finished Sicario and went straight into Hell or High Water and then straight into Wind River over a period of about six months. Did you know that as you were writing Sicario that a movie like Wind River was coming or does this just all happen organically?

I was plotting out the next two as I was writing Sicario and I wanted to do them right on top of each other as a writer so that I could make sure that the themes were fresh and they wove together accurately and well, you know, thematically so that, you know, if I took a tremendous amount of time, then someone might have optioned one of them and made alterations or changes that would have eliminated that or minimized it. They were all pre-completed before any of them were taken out to the marketplace. What is it about stories in these parts of the country that appeal to you? Well, I just think it's fascinating.

We're such a new country, really. And the West was only settled 130 years ago. And to think about how little it's changed in certain areas. And all of these places are in the shadows of massive urban centers or destinations that have been altered completely. And so to look at that, to me, is a really interesting way to examine ourselves. So Wind River is in part about the violence against women in Native American communities and on reservations. How did this first come to you? Did you have a lot of experience with this issue? Why was this part of this trilogy that you were writing? Well, yes. I live in Wyoming now, not far from the res, and I've had a lot of experience.

I've spent a lot of time in Indian country, and this is a very common, tragically common issue. And I managed to find a way that I felt made it interesting and visceral and exciting, hopefully, to watch, and yet still emotional for an audience. And it's a very delicate subject for a number of different reasons. And so you have to very carefully navigate those things. I think our job is to hold the mirror up to our world and showcase these issues that don't get the attention that they deserve. Do you ever have apprehension about tackling something like this as a white person or thinking

about the criticism that's going to happen, or do you just focus on writing the story that you want to write? You know, there's apprehension with anything you write. And obviously, you know, I had to be very aware because I could be naive or arrogant and misrepresent something. But I took a tremendous amount of time. And again, because I've been enough time in the community, in Indian country, that I understood very plainly, you know, the realities of that world and a way to write from the point of view as a white man about their world. And I think what would have offended them is if I had attempted to tell it from a Native American point of view, because I don't have that. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you show your

scripts to other people and have them vet them? or do you try to keep it a solitary experience? Very solitary until it's done. And then I have a few people that I trust that I have look at them. I need to hear the same thing three times before I look at addressing it, because everyone's going to have different opinions and just different tastes. And no matter what I did, there will be someone that won't like a specific story. And likewise, there are things I could do. I could make some pretty bad screenwriting choices, and there are some people that will still love it

because for whatever reason it speaks to them. There's a consistency that I'm looking for when I have people read my screenplays and things that they question or doubt. Have you ever changed something really significant in a screenplay after getting a note three times like that? I don't think so. Usually if you take the time, which is a difficult thing to do in our business, but since these are all original ideas and their specs and I wasn't hired to write them, so I'm not trying to satisfy or marry different visions. I think that's where a lot of the challenges come into play. But because it's my story,

and there's no rush to complete it, it's done when it's done, I have the time to examine these things myself. I can recognize a big script flaw. The big ones are easy to spot. It's the little ones that become big that are tricky. Right. You mentioned that you're writing these stories for yourself and they're not doing for hire work. I assume after a movie like Sicario, you got a lot of opportunities to do for hire work. Is that true?

Yeah, absolutely. And I do. I have done assignments, but assignments are different. You know, it depends on, you know, sometimes you want to go on a ride. Well, you said something interesting about that once. You said that the true theme of the trilogy is Failed Fathers, but then you wrap it in a suspense thriller package. What comes first for you? Is it that theme or is it the suspense thriller? No, it's the theme, and then it's what's the best sugar on this pill?

What's the most... If you look at Sicario, which is really, I mean, it's a thriller in the truest of senses, but it's structured like a tragedy. So it's on a five-act structure, like a Shakespearean tragedy. Power, High Water is a dissertation

on the death of a way of life, and it's wrapped in a buddy road flick slash bank heist movie. And Wind River is essentially CSI Wyoming told in a two-act structure. The goal with each of these is to try and create something that's really exciting to watch and suspenseful and thrilling and yet emotional

and give you something to think about, you know, hopefully days or weeks after you've seen it. It's interesting to hear you say CSI Wyoming. I saw someone write that in a review this week about the movie, and I was like, huh, I wonder if that would offend Taylor or not. But that's, you know, in some ways you do use this kind of like detective noir structure on this new movie. And then the movie does really blow up and has some incredible tense action near the

end of it. Were you always trying to plot this one out in a slightly slower structure this time around? Well, there was a sense that in the first half of the film, I wanted it to feel like this sad, slow meditation on grief and discovery. And then the further you get from any form of civilization,

the more frenetic and chaotic the world becomes, as the rule of law gives way to the laws of nature. I wanted that sense that even though they're hunting, they felt hunted. And I wanted the violence that comes to seem senseless and be incredibly abrupt, because in reality, it is. We have a false notion about violence in these events from cinema because they're created in a way to magnify the attention for an audience. These big, long, drawn-out battles, etc. I think I compiled, which was pretty morbid, about an hour and a half's worth of disinvolved shootings. Some massive engagements, some very rapid things. None of them lasted longer than a minute. They were incredibly

brief, incredibly violent, and guys didn't fall down when they got hit. They didn't get blown backwards very frequently. I wanted it to have that sense of realism. This is something you did before you started Wind River? It's something I did before I directed it. And let's talk about that a little bit. So you had two really gifted filmmakers making your first two films, which I think is very lucky in some respects. And then you obviously have decided to make this movie. I've heard you say that you felt like you were the person who could best treat and respect this material that you wrote. But was there anything about it that made you nervous trying to direct? Everything.

I said that specifically in, in connection with portrayal of native American culture that I knew that it was, I said, I think I could direct it better than Vinny or David. No, that's not what I meant. What I meant is I could execute this vision in a way that was,

that was well received and did exactly what I wanted it to do for this community, and that I did. It was more the manner in which the material was treated for the very people that I was hoping to give a voice to than it was any cinematic style or filmmaking achievement, if that makes any sense. It does. And many people know that you were an actor for many, many years before you were a writer and a director. Did you know when you were working on Sons of Anarchy, for example,

that one day you wanted to be behind the camera? Or has this been a really recent revelation for you? It's something I've always wanted to do, but it was one of those things that how does the college dropout do that you know most filmmakers have studied film um i realized one day i have too i just didn't realize i was doing it you know all of my adult life on tv and film set you know i was friends with writers and uh and kurt was was very open about discussing story and said some really smart things as a you know when he directed episodes and it started to peel the curtain back for me and I started to see, okay, you know, I'm

understanding this from a structural standpoint, you know, actors get on the caboose of the train and the screenwriter, you know, he designs the engine and then the director drives it. What was the hardest thing about it that you didn't expect once you were in that chair? That every single decision is the director's. There is no decision that can be delegated. I was talking to someone yesterday where I said directing is the only socially acceptable form of dictatorship left on earth.

It is a dictatorship. Some people might disagree with that, but you know. Not directors. Right. A lot of other people. Pete berg told me before i started he said look i'm gonna walk up to you at one point with three pebbles in their hand uh one's going to be a sand colored pebble one's going to be a tan pebble and one's going to be an ash colored pebble and i'm telling you right now it doesn't matter which pebble you choose,

but it matters which pebble you choose. And I had no idea what the hell that meant until I knew what it meant. You know, every decision matters, but you just have to make it. Will this affect how you write in the future? If you're going to direct another film, I assume you will. The challenge is to try and not let it, you know, because it can, you know, because it can, you know, as a director, I can go, gosh,

this could be difficult. It's going to take so many days. It's going to be too hard. Let me, let me shrink the scope of that moment. That would be the director in me. Or let me manage that moment in a different way. And you just have to write the movie you see in your head.

And you can't put those limitations or restrictions on it in its inception. You know, you've got to just let it be what it is. Tell me about how you cast the movie. So Jeremy Renner and Elizabeth Olsen are two of your stars. We talked a little bit about also casting Native American actors. And what kind of process did you go through there to make sure that you were getting the people you wanted? Well, I think having been an actor, I know what to look for. Some people may get really focused on a look, and I'm looking for an honesty and an essence.

And I think that you can see in this cast, even with some actors that haven't had a lot of experience, there was a real subtlety and honesty to every performance. I think that's what I'm proudest of. Do you miss acting yourself? Not even a little. Hey guys, let's take a quick break to hear from one of our sponsors. Support for today's show comes from Audible. Audible content includes an unmatched selection of audiobooks, original audio shows, news, comedy, and more from the leading publishers,

broadcasters, entertainers, and business information providers. Unlike a streaming or rental service, with Audible, you own your own books. You can access them anytime, anywhere from almost any device. Your iPhone, your iPad, Android, Amazon Fire tablets, or Windows phone. Plus, thanks to the great listen guarantee, if you don't like your title, you can swap it out for a new one. Not to mention, Audible Channels gives you a collection of exclusive originals, short stories, and comedy, so you can always have something new to listen to. Let me recommend something on Audible right now. It's a book recently that I engaged with called West of Eden by the late oral historian Gene Stein. This oral history is incredible. It's a story of Hollywood from the 1920s through the 1960s, the power brokers of the town of Hollywood. And on this audio book, the full

cast from this oral history is reading their parts. So it's really a very exciting experience. I highly recommend you guys check out Audible to use that right now. So to check out West of Eden or get a free audio book with a 30-day trial, just go to www.audible.com backslash picture. That's www.audible.com backslash P-I-C-T-U-R-E. And you can get your free audio book 30-day trial right now. Okay, now back to my interview with Taylor Sheridan.

Do you read the reviews of your work and what's going to define success on Wind River for you? You know, reviews are tricky. I was told by a filmmaker, just read the good ones. And then I was told by another filmmaker, just read the bad ones. And then Pete told me, don't read any of them. and then I was told by another filmmaker, just read the bad ones, and then Pete told me, don't read any of them.

I think that you want the work well-received. People are going to have different opinions. Success for me, at the end of the day, and this is no disrespect to film critics, the movies aren't made for them. I make the movies for audiences, so for people to go see it and it moved them, that's the goal. And also for the people the movie's about to go, yes, thank you. I'm glad you told that story and you told it in an authentic way.

That's the goal. It's for the person that decided to take two hours out of their day or night and 14 bucks out of their wallet and sit down and go, okay, take me there. They felt it was a journey worth taking, then I've done my job. Tell me a little bit now about what you're working on next. You have a TV series at the Paramount Network with Kevin Costner called Yellowstone. What should people expect from that? It's a much different look at the West, an entirely different genre bent to it.

You know, television gives you an opportunity to examine a world at a much slower pace. It's not two hours, you know, it's 70 hours, hopefully. And you get a chance to really dive in and get this, you know, study human nature and look at this place and really invent a world

that gets to live for a while. And it's a really, it's a fascinating creative outlet for a storyteller and for actors. And it's a really fascinating creative outlet for a storyteller and for actors. And it's something that audiences seem to really enjoy the familiarity of returning to this world and moving through it. It's become a really interesting filmmaker-friendly medium. 15 years ago, it wasn't that at all. And now it is. And so it's great to get an opportunity to look at the world with that big a lens. Does it feel like significantly different

as a TV experience, even from the past few years that you weren't working on television? Well, I'm shooting it like a movie because I wrote them all. And so I'm shooting them like a really obscenely long film. And I'm at that point in prepping this

really long movie that I feel ridiculous and I feel stupid, which is what every filmmaker told me. There's that one moment when you question everything you're doing and it's usually right before you start. And so that's the moment

I find myself in right now. Well, good luck on that and congratulations on your directorial debut. And Taylor, thanks for joining me today, man. I appreciate it. Hey, I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Okay, man. Take care. Thanks for listening to today's show, guys, and come back next week because I have a really great interview with the brothers Safdie. That's Josh and Benny.

Their new movie, Good Time, starring Robert Pattinson, is one of the best crime movies I've seen in the last few years. So be sure to check that out on The Big Picture. And thanks for listening. Thank you.