The Big Picture - ‘Taylor Swift: The Eras Tour’ Is Here. Is It Worthy of the Hype?

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

Sean and Amanda discuss the surprise box office smash hit of the year, ‘Taylor Swift: The Eras Tour’—what it means for the movie industry, whether any other artists are powerful enough to follow in Swift’s footsteps, and the ripples her music dominance has had on larger pop culture. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if you got scammed? Would you suffer in silence, or would you do something about it? Well, I got scammed once, and this is the story of what I did. I'm Justin Sales, the host of The Wedding Scammer, a true crime podcast from The Ringer. And for seven episodes, we're hunting a con man. A guy with a lot of aliases. A guy who's ruined a lot of weddings. And with the help of some friends, I just might be able to catch him.

Listen to The Wedding Scammer on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Taylor Swift. Dun, dun, dun taylor swift's the era's tour is here it opened in movie theaters over the weekend this is a concert film of her

most recent tour ongoing tour actually and this is an opportunity for amanda and i to speak at length about this new concert film and frankly the entire the entire Taylor Swift experience. And I would say I have been both anticipating and dreading this moment. Amanda, why don't... I've been looking forward to it. Yeah. Well, let's open this conversation by saying we saw this film together. We did. And I want to say as an experience, I had a great time with you.

I did too. And I can't imagine having seen it any other way. It was a lot of fun. And when things were dark, it was nice that we were together when they were dark. Yes. In general, I think we got the experience we expected, which is to say we went in a big, loud Dolby room at an AMC movie theater. And there were a lot of kids there. There were a lot of 10 year olds, a lot of 12 year olds. There was a lot of dancing. There was a lot of exultation. So what was promoted is what we received. Now we can talk at length about what we received, but I'll start as I often do, which is, did you like

Taylor Swift, The Heiress Tour? The movie. Yes. I had a great time. It was very fun to be with you. I thought that all of the small children dancing up and down was the cutest thing I've ever seen. Like, that was really very sweet. I was glad we went at 1230 during nap time for the youngest of the children, including ours. But it was kind of a prime families together and just, like, little girls jumping up and down. And then they ran to the front during Bad Blood, which was that. That was interesting that that was kind of what, you know, broke the stay in your seat seal. No, that was very sweet. It was very funny and delightful and something that I've been waiting for for a long time to sit next to you during a three hour medley of Taylor Swift songs and watch you learn and grow and process.

It was cool to be able to talk. Yeah, we talked a lot. Well, it was really loud and everyone else was, it was not like a traditional movie theater as sanctuary experience. It was movie theater as concert experience. We also sat on the end and you had an open seat next to you. So we really were not disturbing anybody, but I needed to talk because I needed context from you as we were watching the film. Because as I've mentioned

in the past, I have like a 10 year gap of no knowledge of the Taylor Swift experience. Yes. And I think it's hilarious and amazing that you have to do a podcast with me about Taylor Swift now and I've been looking forward to this like all weekend so I think it's great can I ask

while we're asking Blanket did you enjoy Taylor Swift the Eros tour the movie I wanted to ask Bobby who also

saw it this weekend but who is the only person among us who also went to the Eros tour the concert oh that's right you saw it this weekend, but who is the only person among us who also went to the ERA's tour, the concert. Oh, that's right. You saw it live.

I did. Yes. Yes. So Bobby, one, did you enjoy ERA's tour, the movie? I did. Yes. Two, how did it compare to the experience of seeing ERA's tour, the concert. It felt sort of like a pedestrian version of the concert.

So I was at the concert at Foxborough where the New England Patriots play. Jesus Christ. In Massachusetts. That is hell on earth. In Massachusetts. The ERA's tour at Foxborough? Well, so I was pushing to go to the Meadowlands and then I was pushing to go to Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia, but various people in my friend group who will remain unnamed could not go to those various states. And so we all decided to settle on Foxborough, Massachusetts. So we drove

up, we stayed in Providence. We had a fine time. We had a nice time in Providence, beautiful town. Would have liked to spend more time there if we could have. And we were at the show that it was torrential downpour for nine straight hours. It did not let up the whole time. And so it was a real, like a truly physical test for her and for the crowd. It was like not your typical

arena concert experience. And seeing this film, I realized how different it would have been to see it in Los Angeles. So it was what it was supposed to be. You finally saw what it was meant to be. Right.

Yeah. I mean, it was still all the same show, same song, same crowd banter and whatnot. And I was going to ask, the banter is pretty much word for word. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty word for word. That's fine.

Listen. I think that's relatively rehearsed. Yeah. I know you do. I know you do. But the concert experience, it was very similar to the movie experience. I would argue almost too similar if you're going to make this whole concert film. But I understand that the release of this was for a lot of people who couldn't get to go see the actual Heiress tour.

That was the fencing I wanted to put around this. It sounded even better in the Dolby room. I also saw it in Dolby at AMC. Yeah. So, I didn't realize that you went to a full-reign Taylor Swift experience. Yeah, which is like a thing. Which is memorable in its own way, but is not the stories that I have heard from other people who went to the show in one way or another. And I was thinking about it.

So, none of my peer group of friends actually went to Taylor Swift, the Heiress Tour. They were all interested in it, interested in it pop culturally, but I think we were all like, we're all too old, frankly, and we recognized it.

I missed it as well. Okay. But I feel like, you know, whether it's parents who took children that I've spoken to or, you know, people that I've seen like on Instagram, you know, like kind of like the one degree of separation. I have a sense of what people the movie was about like being there with all of your friends or with your parents or with your children and the friendship bracelets and the outfits and the singing along and buying the merch and it as like event and being being all together and I would not say that the movie experience communicated that.

I mean, you, Sean, and I had a very nice time together speaking, but it's not like we were a part of some wild music festival. We were watching some small children dance in a really dark room. Yeah, I mean, let's put a little bit more context around what this actually was, because as you said, it's a nearly three-hour film. It's a 169-minute representation of three shows at SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles in August. And the purpose of this is obviously, one, it's an incredible money-making and marketing tool for Taylor Swift, who is the best money-making and marketing artist probably of this century. It's an opportunity

for mega fans who can't afford to go or who couldn't go for whatever reason or who she didn't tour in their city or what have you to get close to the experience. And I think in some ways, it's very, very good at achieving that. It's probably not as good as sitting in the front row at SoFi. I'm sure it pales in comparison. But if you love Taylor Swift, and there are so many people who do, that did not get a chance to go to it. This is the most, the hottest ticket in touring in a decade.

I mean, it feels like a really long time, especially for an artist of her generation. These are really big venues that she's playing. This is a really long tour. And the thing that I think makes it very interesting is that she has playing. This is a really long tour. And the thing that I think makes it very interesting is that she has recorded and released four full albums since she last toured. And so there was a lot of material for her to tour against. And frankly, an entire generation of fans who have come around who never saw her because in 2019, she finished Lover. She was planning a big tour

and then the pandemic struck. And so she wasn't able to do so. So this is like a massive mega event in the world of the music industry. And it is now this extraordinary movie event. And initially Taylor and her team started negotiating with the movie studios. She had been filming this very consciously, I think, knowing that there was going to be an opportunity to sell this as a concert film as so many big artists have done in the past. I guess the negotiations broke down with those studios. And so she just went directly to the theatrical chains, AMC and Cinemark. And that's where you can see these movies, this movie. And it worked. I mean, the movie did extraordinarily well. This is the biggest October release in movie history,

a besting Joker, which is the best data point ever. I'm trying to imagine the audiences for Joker and Taylor Swift, the Eros tour having coffee together. It did, I guess, in some ways, quote unquote, disappoint based on what the pre-release tracking is. But I generally think tracking is kind of horseshit and I try not to give it too much credence. So I would say if your concert, three hour concert film made $96 million in its opening weekend, you did very well. And Taylor Swift marketed the heck out of this movie

and has marketed the heck out of this tour. And so it is broadly a great success. The thing I want to talk about is, is it a good movie? Because that's really what I care about. Now, obviously I have some complicated feelings about Taylor Swift, but I can still,

even when there are artists who make concert films whose music doesn't really mean a lot to me, I can meaningfully weigh in on whether the movie worked. So you are, would you say you're the lapsed Catholic of Taylor Swift fans? How would you define yourself? Yeah, I think that's a good way of, you know, I was raised in it. I connect to it on some, from my youth on a on a primal level i know i know a lot but not everything um and i was surprised when doing research for this this podcast and trying to fill in the gaps like of how much i've kind of like ambiently held on to, you know, as the years have gone by. Well, for example, Folklore is an album that came out during the pandemic that I did listen to and then sort of didn't really revisit.

I wouldn't say that it was like a central part of my, you know, pandemic listening experience. But after talking with our friend Phooebe and and with your wife yesterday who was also like oh folklore is you know i i'm actually kind of into it favorites yeah that's weird yeah i went back and i bobby's nodding his head um i went back and revisited it this morning uh and i was like oh yeah no i do actually know all of this and some of that is because it has just kind of been everywhere and the Taylor Swift reach just kind of expands and expands and finds new cracks in the culture to fill. But also because I guess at some point it just, it lodged in my brain a little and I don't

like think about it, but it's there, which is, I guess, how many people feel about their Catholicism. Did you like the movie? Not really. This is my third question. No, I didn't. I didn't really like it. And part of it is, you know, and when I was talking about, when I was asking Bobby about his concert experience and talking about what I, the impression that I got of the ERA's tour and and the experience and you know why you would go um

no one has said um for three hours of Taylor Swift choreography in HD you know and and respectfully I I love Taylor Swift I yeah I do actually and I think when when she is great I she is phenomenal I think she's incredibly talented i'm excited to talk about some of her songs with you but i it's it's not like she's um a she's not first and foremost a dancer right you know and it's not and it's like and and i'm not like a theater kid so the kind of theatrical stagey productions which like obviously you need to do to fill a stadium she's on like a arena tour or stadium tour but you know it's just like i know do i want to watch like her dancing around with like people in capes and orbs forever more like no i i just i don't i'm sorry and that doesn't take away from what i like about her music. You were singing along and enjoying a lot of it, too.

Yeah. And this is the other thing, is that as a Taylor Swift active fan, I probably got off the train at Reputation, which was in 2016. And as you mentioned, she has not toured her four most recent albums. So there was a lot of, gonna play you something new we've been working on, you know? And it just wasn't a focus on the parts of the Taylor Swift discography that I like. Like, that's fine. I still had fun.

I, you know, I got really excited when we finally switched to Fearless after Lover. Even though Lover's okay. I would say my ranking of the most recent four is probably lover folklore midnights large large large large large large drop and then evermore okay that's interesting um i wasn't familiar with any of those albums at all not even a little bit i didn't even really fully understand that the structure and conception of this show

was a kind of non-chronological journey through the 10 albums. That she, you know, the film opens with the lover set and then she kind of moves through different costume changes, different sets, you know, different alignments of her backup singers and backing dancers. And that, you know, the movie is this kind of diaristic portrait of her shape-shifting over the years.

And I think it's a pretty smart idea. Yeah. I get it. And I think a couple things that really jumped out to me were the way that the young girls are centered in this movie, the way that the young girls are centered in this movie. The way that the crowd shots consistently return to young girls.

We see very few parents in the crowd audience reaction. The way that Taylor presents herself as a person in that banter, which is kind of like very lighthearted, very aw shucks, very humbled by the experience.

She's always had a kind of like who me? Kind of like affectation. The Taylor Swift surprise face was like the, you know, one of the earliest Taylor Swift awards show memes. I personally find that authentically bizarre at like 17 years into the most

successful pop music career we've seen since Michael Jackson. But it is her persona yeah so I understand that she's feeding it and it works very well obviously with young girls and obviously not very well with 40 year old men sure I'm aware of that um I I had the same reaction that you did which is sort of like different eras worked well on me and other eras didn't work on me at all some eras I found to be like genuinely distasteful and borderline insane. And others I was like, I didn't know.

I like this song. Which one? Well, the one that resonates with me that I listen to now is Anti-Hero. Yeah, it's me. Hi, I'm the problem. It's me. That's genius. She is like when she's a genius, she's a genius.

Right. Even though that is firmly creative the creative writing chapter of her life and like sometimes I feel like everyone's a sexy baby and I'm the monster on the hill and then like I had a dream that my son-in-law like what is going on our daughter-in-law like killed me or something like what is going on what is going on in that song well okay I don't know anything about her anymore so I don't know to me that was. So I don't know. To me, that was just like a very classic. There's this great Michael Jackson song

called Leave Me Alone from the Dangerous album where he's, you know, it's this kind of the video is this like old timey Melie almost like moving train of anxiety

where it's, you know, when you get to be so successful, you start writing songs about how crazy you feel. It's like everyone is out to get you. Yeah.

I like songs like that. I like songs like. Yeah. And I like songs like that. I like songs like that too. And I like the parts of that song that are grounded in that. And then when she's just like doing her. The mixed metaphors are bad. Yeah. But the mixed metaphors in all of her songs are bad. And that's part of one of my issues where it's like people are.

Okay. Let me frame the rest of this conversation by saying this. Okay. In 2008, 9, 10, I was working as a music critic. That was when Taylor was becoming popular. It was when she was still a teen, kind of polished country singer. A little bit of folk influence, very singer-songwriter-y in the presentation. And obviously it wasn't for me.

I don't really listen to very much polished Nashville country pop in the first place. It's not really a genre that I care very much about. I started to get frustrated by the whole experience when my colleagues and those, frankly, those who are older than me and I thought knew better than me, insisted on valorizing her as a profound intellectual artistic talent. Because I just don't see it that way. I saw her as a pop star. I think that pop music obviously plays an important role in people's lives. I think it can provide happiness. But in the world of critical journalism, I thought people's standards had plummeted.

And it came on at the last stage of poptimism. Poptimism, yeah. And poptimism, for those who are listening who are like, Sean is an old, annoying man, was this wave of critical thought, particularly in music writing, that conceded that

Britney Spears was just as valuable as Joni Mitchell and that one was not more serious than the other and that the sort of artistic intent and the value of the music,

it kind of defied the commercial presentation and it was ultimately about the text and whether or not the songs worked. They made people feel they converted something inside of you by listening to them. That's a very rough definition. But Taylor Swift, I think, was kind of the synthesis of rockism and optimism or poptimism yeah she was a singer-songwriter who played her guitar and she was a person who wrote very obvious down-the-middle love songs for teenagers and

so she was the ultimate fusion of these two critical ideas can we give like a little more context to sean in 2006 8 until 2012 which was like what do you want to know? That was just like you a little bit in your like heel era, you know? Some might say that's today. And no, no, no. But even more so. And like, you're talking about all of your colleagues and peers who are music critics, who were advocating. Not all of them.

Like basically. Your husband was not there. No, he likes Taylor. But I think because he's married to you. Well, no, because he also has, like, his punk, like, he likes emo, like, more than I do. Are we comparing Taylor Swift to punk? No.

She's the least punk artist who's ever lived. But just, like, but, like, but like someone like with their guitar, just like writing too much about their feelings. I knew your husband very well in 2011. He was not rocking Taylor Swift. Well, I got, I met him in 2011.

And by 2013, he was at the red tour with me. So like, that's fine. If it's for me, that's because he was trying to get married to you. That is true. Um,

I, I just, I, you, and I, I support that. I have no, I think what I'm saying is,

is that he can appreciate it. Also. I think my, what I'm trying to explain is that my grudge was ultimately not with my perception of her, which was like rich girl from Pennsylvania. Who's like, I'm under the bleachers and I'm not the

prom queen and I was like this is such phony stuff but that's every pop star has that every pop star creates this persona so that they can seem more relatable to their fans I have no ultimate problem with that my problem was with really smart 52 year old men being like this person changed my life and my soul

and I to this day think that's so weird. Like so weird. I, I, I agree with you. And I, I really like want to talk about like fan culture and,

and how it's evolved since then. And also, um, it being targeted to women versus men and, you know, whatever, because I agree with you, but I just need people to

understand also that this became like a personal bit and like yeah rallying cry for you you know like and it really this is like a thing you've been doing for like a very long time publicly i retired it no i haven't done it in like years i know but you like hadn't listened to any of the songs like it was really it was we like we have have all like lived our bits for a long time. But like Sean like really lived this bit. It was kind of like the original like bit. It was an orienting bit. Yeah.

There's no question about it. So I just, I want everyone to understand that as we go on this journey. I think it's very fair to say this was a heel bit too. Because everybody loved her and still loves her for the most part. So it was it was an interesting thing to take a shot at.

I haven't done it for a long time for a variety of reasons. One, at a certain point like one lone crazed white man screaming about how Taylor Swift

is a phony is a big waste of time. Two, I think I've really come to respect this just like absolute relentless empire she's built.

No, but not the music. I don't really care about the music. But she like... It's undeniable. You said something to me while we were watching the movie that helped me understand this, which is that she kind of just like in the middle of her career, rebooted her career to reset for 12-year-olds, which I thought was really insightful. And when I was 25, I was like, this isn't for me.

So as I get older, there's no sense in being like this thing that young, like those young, the young girls we saw in the movie theater. I mean, their, their soul was lifted. They were so happy.

I'm not trying to take that away from anybody. I think it's great. I think it's okay to find a way to be thoughtfully critical of an artist's music, but without like making fun of the whole thing. But she has done something that the list is so short of artists who could pull this off, get this many people interested. She built this like amazing world.

Um, you know, what constitutes the world I think is worth discussion. Like, do you, do you think we should go into the movie through each stage, each, each set?

Yeah. Um, you know, the movie through each stage, each set? Yeah. You know, the movie is directed by Sam Wrench. I don't know if we said that, who recently shot a concert film by Lizzo. He's a kind of workman-like journeyman concert filmmaker. This is not. He's just got cameras spinning around everywhere. They're there. Sometimes they catch the magic.

Sometimes they don't. You know, the movie looks good and sounds good, but there are no behind the scenes in this film. There's no narrative structure. It is just the concert. That they don't. You know, the movie looks good and sounds good, but there are no behind the scenes in this film. There's no narrative structure. It is just the concert. That's the whole movie. Did you know that going in, that it was going to be just the music? I guess no, but I think because I hadn't heard

of any kind of documentary behind the scenes thing, and also because it was filmed over three nights at SoFi, I don't think i was expecting like truth or dare um and in fact we've already had like the behind the scenes part of truth or dare in miss americana which you hated i did um and i sort of i thought was interesting um bob did you know it was going to be just the the tour uh that was my assumption going into it like sitting maybe like 45 minutes in i the thought occurred to me that i wished that i could have seen maybe some of the behind the scene

mechanics of how she got on and off stage a little bit but this could have added to the experience rather than just being able to sit in the crowd and see her dive into the stage and then have a graphic of her like swimming through water which was weird at the concert and even weirder in movie versions but yeah no I assumed that it was going to be exactly like this

like she's beyond her pulling back the curtain era fake or real as it might be yeah she's in she's in world conquering mode

which actually doesn't behoove her I think to go behind the curtain even though she does that all the time in her songs and in Miss Americana

I think I have to give it up to her a three and a half hour concert behind the curtain, even though she does that all the time in her songs and in Miss Americana. I think, I have to give it up to her. A three and a half hour concert, it's just her. It's amazing. It's amazing. Like physical, musical,

like achievement, just like the pure stamina, the presence. She never looks tired. I was thinking during the concert, during the movie about how I never once heard that she had to postpone because of illness.

I assume that she's doing voice rest and all of these things, but that is just like an absolute physical achievement, let alone the amount of work that goes into building like nine sets and imagining on that scale and then doing it every single night. And this was like seven months. This is like seven months into the tour.

Yeah. And she sounded great. Like, it's pretty unbelievable. It's amazing. And it was like, I turned to Sean at one point and I was like, well, there's some continuity errors with her hair. Because she was wearing her hair. Yeah, like Taylor Swift has naturally wavy, curly hair. And she was wearing it straight.

But she was playing in Los Angeles, which can have humidity, despite what you've heard. And also she was like sweating. And so you could see like the hair. I don't know whether she's doing a blowout or a straight iron or whatever. Anyway, but it's becoming wavier and wavier as the night goes on. But it was clear that like depending on the waviness of her hair and any given number, you could tell like which night it was from. But her hair was giving it away, but she herself was not. No, she never cracks.

Which is amazing. She never cracks she never cracks you could tell that she's more or less with the exception of bobby's rain drenched night yeah giving the same performance every night which is frankly what you want you want a kind of consistency when you're doing a mega arena tour like this because you're creating this like communal conversation around the world that's sort of like we all had this. And that's also something that the movie provides. I was amazed by the like consistency of the performance over this very, very long concert. I wish that the movie, and this has nothing to do with Taylor Swift, really. I just wish that the movie was more of a movie.

I wish it had some character. Like a concert film is an opportunity to have like a great visual character, whether it be like much more intimate or handheld and like kind of getting really up close in an artist's face so you can see regret or fear or exultation

or, you know, because she's so polished, it's kind of hard to penetrate the outer surface of the Taylor Swift experience. Or, you know, we talked at length

about Stop Making Sense a few weeks ago on the show, and that's a very different kind of a concert. More intimate in many ways. That was at the P that's like what is that 115th 120th the audience size but that was this beautifully constructed architected strategized show that was theatrical in a way that is really compelling and odd and felt like it could break at any moment and this

is not that this is a fortress this is a And this is not that. This is a fortress. This is a machine. Well, this is a document of a concert rather than a movie on its own terms. Yeah, a concert film. And that's okay. I think there are millions of people in the U.S. who wanted that and went to see it this weekend.

So that's not without merit. I'm just saying it's different. Its intentions are different. It's not making sense. I thought that was a very smart decision to make the arc non-chronological because it for example for you i you know there were times when you were really in and times when you were kind of out but like if you're the kind of fan who lapsed then the end of the movie might have been kind of bad for you right yeah yeah you could

have left right but isn't that like set list 101 know, where it is like people come at some point at a certain point in your career. Like people like might be interested in the new stuff you're working on, but they want you to play the hits. And so you got to sprinkle it with like the new stuff that you're peddling versus like you belong with me. Yeah. But jumbling together songs from the eras and that whole conceit, I think, lets people sit in that time in their life when they were listening to the songs, which is a really good idea. And she's not the first person to have done this. I can't think of an example of someone who's done this this way. But, you know, legacy artists tend to do this kind of thing.

They have these kind of gimmicky approaches, like U2 is doing all of Octong Baby at the Sphere right now. This is a pretty common thing that huge artists do. But it's particularly smart when this is an artist that kind of strikes when you're very young. Like Taylor Swift is somebody that most of her fans under the age of 40 have come to at 12 or 16 or 20. And then they can think about who they were. 25. 25. Were you 25 when she came to you?

You were not 25. Let's see. Let's do some math. Speak. The first Taylor Swift album was 2006. Yeah, but, and that has Tim McGraw, I believe, but.

That's teardrops on my guitar. Those were big songs. Yeah, but I would say that Fearless is really when it hit and I was 24. Okay. Well, 24 then. Okay, thank you. It's just, you know, there are a lot of 20 something women in our theater as well in their uh eras tour merch yeah no no shades any of the older

fans of taylor swift they're probably 80 year olds that are into taylor swift i think but i do think that the movie is ultimately for kids like i said because of the focus oh taylor swift is our song too okay so you're 2006. So how old were you then? 22. Okay, great. So just fresh faced into the world. Moved to New York City. Yeah.

A gal on the move. Yeah, that was me. You know, looking to bag that job, nail that career. That's right. Maybe meet a nice guy. Yeah. Unfortunately, I had to wait almost 20 years for The Man to be released. So 15.

Yeah. I'd like to talk about that. Yeah. Maybe we should start there. Should we start talking about Lover? Yeah. This is an album specifically that I was not familiar with. I know the name of the song Cruel Summer

because I know it was a big hit, but I don't know any of these songs. Also, you know Bananarama? I do know, yes. I know Bananarama. I just don't, the production style, the Yes, I know. I know Bananarama. I just don't. The production style, the look, I didn't know any of it. So for this to be the opening segment of the film, immediately I was at sea.

I was kind of like, what is this? And I think that that is what spurred the tenor of our movie going experience, which is me sort of being like, what's going on here? What is this um and then you would you would uh happily explain often with your own slant on the particular oh i'm interested to hear you summarize my slant maybe you should present what you think i thought about each set before you're i think your feeling on lover was that it was the eh period. That it was like not bad, but not her best. And I think it's post-reputation, right?

Yeah. You know, kind of when you're starting to move away, you knew the songs. You were not really bopping in your seat the way that you were for some other eras. Right. Well, how am I supposed to bop to the man, you know? I mean, I'm going to try to not be too critical of most of the songs here. I found that segment and song to be deplorable.

Yeah. Like, I, and I know I'm running a great risk and I don't, I'm not like trying to tempt the Swifties. I don't want my social media presence to be destroyed.

Like, all of these, most, almost every other song is either a love song or a song about like seeking revenge against an enemy or like a creative writing project about characters. This was the one song where she wore a glittery pantsuit.

No. Jacket. Jacket. There were no pants. No pants. Okay. And sang about corporate feminism. And I was like, this is incredibly weird.

With an office set and with people also in pantsuits, everyone in gray. Like climbing up the stairs through the glass ceiling to become the new CEO of Hewlett Packard, like all good girls should. And I just think that that song is really weird

and a weird message to send to young girls. And I know that she's a very successful businesswoman. There's nothing wrong with being a successful businesswoman, but that being so early in the set,

I was like, oh my God, is this what Taylor Swift is now? Is it just like rah-rah, like, you know, anthems about

running for governor? Like, it just, I thought it was very strange. And then, thankfully, honestly, that's not, there's pretty much nothing else like that in the movie. But it was also very performative, it just, I thought it was very strange. And then, thankfully, honestly, that's not, there's pretty much nothing else like that in the movie. Yeah.

But it was also very performative, very character-y. So, Reputation, which was 2016, and Lover, 2019, are Taylor Swift's late 20s, and she was born in 1989, so she turned 30 in 2019. So she's late 20s, but obviously she started young. And so to me, that's always felt like the part in her career where she's trying to figure out, okay, I was a teen star and I was writing about teen things. And whether or not my fans were teens or former teens, people were relating to the music because of something that she could capture about that moment in life. And that's very powerful. But like then you grow up. And so and I think this happens like many child stars and like many young pop stars where as they mature, do people want to mature with them will the adele had this thing as as well where like she makes two

albums about being those ages being those ages and like a very like emotional and like preternaturally um attuned expression of what it is to be that and then she famously before the most recent album, like she said, she wrote an entire album about being a mom and then was like, oh, I don't really think anybody wants to hear this. So I wrote something else. So when you age out of the thing that you've become popular for, what do you do? Right. And so Taylor Swift in reputation is a little bit referencing like the first wave of backlash to her and some of the Kanye stuff and, like, trying to, and also evolving the, you know, but she's, like, trying to grow up in one way. And Lover is, like, a mix to me. And The Man is her trying to do, like, Taylor Swift's version of, like, I'm a grown-up and I'm talking about feminism.

And I agree that it does not work for me. And it's after Lover, she kind of resets on some of that stuff and it tends to work better. So I would agree. I mean, the man was like deeply uncomfortable. I also remember reading a quote that it was Tree Payne's song on lover tree pain is taylor swift's infamous publicist um i don't have that confirmed so tree pain when you email me i just i read the quote i don't know if it's true and i'm letting everyone know um and i'm not going to issue a correction but um that that that sums up my thoughts on the man. In general, Lover didn't leave a huge impression on me. I think it's an interesting opening choice. Bob, this is kind of right in the sweet spot of your Taylor Swift fandom, I assume. Not necessarily your taste, but just hearing her, knowing her music.

It's what, 2019, 2018? Yeah. Well, my Taylor Swift fandom actually goes back to the first albums. Yeah. So you were like four years old? I was 10. 10 in 2006, Sean. Give me some something, you know?

I didn't just graduate college yesterday. Yeah, Lover is not my favorite album of hers, but because it was the album that she was supposed to tour, Lover tour, that was going to be her biggest tour, despite the fact that she had done a huge tour for Reputation and Red, which Amanda referenced. And that was the thing that got canceled because of COVID. And so that was sort of the inciting incident

for putting this tour together. And that's why I think that it started with Lover. And then, no spoilers, but ends with Midnight, which is her most recent album. Right, okay. I think musically, it's like, I think a creative creative a definite creative step back from reputation which i think is her most creatively exploratory album like she tried

new stuff yeah you and you and many others feel that way and i don't wow totally i have so many thoughts about that okay that's great we can talk about that um okay she also didn't play the best song i like the song lover from, but Paper Rings from Lover is a jam and that was not on the set list. So I'm just gonna, and then also she co-wrote a song, um, well, or she, she did a song featuring the chicks called Soon You'll Get Better, which is about her mother's illness and is an incredibly moving song that I do not feel would have been inappropriate in this concert setting. Hard to play. Yeah, but that is really very good. So I just want to give her credit. And at least she didn't play me.

Bobby, where are you on me? It's awful. Okay. Just a total mess. I distinctly remember. Aren't you? Well, I like Panic! at the Disco, sure. But I could not be distancing myself more from Brandon Urie post Panic at the Disco.

Yeah. Just not into it creatively, not into the artistry. And the song is not good. I distinctly remember being in the Ringer pod office and Craig Horldeck, love him though his opinions are sometimes misses, being like, this song is going to sound great to you in three weeks. And I was like, you're so wrong about this. And it could not be more it's it's really terrible the singles from reputation the singles

keep getting worse i think until midnight this is a taylor swift thing she always chooses the wrong single which is like maybe you don't know what you're chooses the wrong single i think she's like i am gonna write this like absolute bullshit radio single and release it to the masses and I think she's very specific and you can like really see the divide of being like okay this is what I'm gonna make my weird frothy video for and then I'm gonna write some real shit over here right can I ask you both as fans yeah um do you like how visible the seams are of her puppetry? Like the fact that, you know, I guess I should say the strings, the seams of the puppet. Being able to, you know, the one thing that has always frustrated me with her is just that she's kind of the ultimate careerist millennial.

We were talking about this a couple of weeks ago. And I'm a careerist millennial, so i can be self-abnegating here but like every choice feels very managed and like you're talking about her decision making to release a single that is like very pop and for the masses and then i'll release a song that is like for the real heads and then that'll actually end up becoming the song people like more it's oh this movie in many ways is this representation of artistic choices and also career choices. You know, opportunities to pivot from one sound to another, from one look to another, from one tonality of music and persona to another. And obviously many great pop stars do this, but with her, there is something very mechanical about those choices to me. And obviously being raised with a little bit of that Gen X anxiety,

I think plays into that for us. But I'm curious from both of your perspectives, if any of that frustrates you, if you think it's great, if you're just like, this is awesome, she's winning. I think that's the opinion of a lot of people,

but I'd like to know what you guys think. Bobby, what's your instinct? I, I mean, just because of my like personal orientation to like artistry and capitalism don't love all of that stuff I think that I come to it because I earnestly like the music but I like the music from the perspective that this is pop music that is

very good there is better pop music out there there is better singer-songwriter music out there there are better female artists out there that I like There's better singer-songwriter music out there. There are better female artists out there that I like a lot more that I fire up on the subway much more often than Taylor Swift. But the thing that I like about it is the community aspect of it, that it feels like,

I hate to make this the most ringer point of all time, but it feels monocultural the way that you get to experience the new albums, the releases, the drops, in a way that it doesn't scratch that same part of my brain when like Soccer Mommy drops an album. And it's just not the same thing. I can talk to five people about that, but I can talk to

500 people about a new Taylor Swift album. But I don't love the like, all right, and now it's time to check this box to get these tickets. And now it's time to check this box to download this album. And now it's time to check this box to buy this t-shirt. I've never really liked all of that stuff, but it's undoubtedly part of the persona and part of her experience. And she's reflecting that back in some of the music. And I think definitely reflecting that back in the tour and just the whole like circumstantial aspects of how this movie got made and released and why it's even here in front of us right now. Do you think most fans have, most fans who are not kids have like an awareness of, or even like any conflicted feelings about that?

I don't know. Can I do my Taylor Swift versus Marvel thing now? Yeah, sure. Because I think it's totally correlated. And it's very fan culture. And she has evolved as has fan culture evolved. And how we express our fandom, and whether that's the community aspect that Bobby

was talking about and or then now I have to buy the re-release with the three different bracelets because xyz that Bobby was talking about like it it has all been like super corporatized and um I don't relate to and I just I like I am not a fan in that sense like the way that fan culture has kind of and many people are i'm really not denigrating it i i am not if it's not an 800 dollar mug that is recommended by sofia coppola you are not into fan culture 200 and something dollars and i will think of you both every time that i use it okay um listen Listen, I am a Sofia Coppola fan, but how one is a Sofia Coppola fan is different from how one is a Taylor Swift fan. Anyway, to Bobby's point, I too resist like the corporatized aspect of it and not even the corporatized aspect of it, but I just, I spent a

lot of time reading Taylor Swift Reddit this weekend. I was just curious. Um, and, and to Bobby's point, that's like, that is a lot of community building and, and people talking about what they're going to wear and like,

whether like how anxious the crowd experience will make them and all of these sorts of things. And they have like favorite secret songs and they're trying to do XYZ. And I just, it's, it it you know it's just kind of a organizing frame for them to make friends and have feelings and live every day and that's great i don't experience it that way but so when you ask me like do you think people are aware it's i think to varying degrees in whatever like works best for them and i like don't like really think that they care i don't think there's necessarily like certainly nothing like immoral about what she's doing i'm not trying to suggest that i think that those two ideas though are very much in conflict that sense of like community and like relationship building oriented

around an artist and an artist who's very confessional personal autobiographical someone who is attempting to create empathy with the audience like that is really what she does right and it works in that way like people have built this huge relationship with her but she is also pepsi you know like in so many ways and the marvel comparison i think is very she's not actually because she's sponsored by diet and the marvel comparison i think is very she's not actually because she's sponsored by diet coke which was one of the reasons that she's never done the uh super bowl halftime show okay um but she's bowing yeah she is she's she's uh but like so you know marvel is marvel to a lot of people as well so like what do i care no doubt i think

part of the reason why I kind of just like punted on the bit of not liking Taylor Swift is I was like, this is kind of everything now. Like everything in the world is consumed this way. Yeah. And so like, again, what I was really frustrated by was being told that this is good. Like, if you told me that the Marvel movies are bad,

I don't really care. Like, we can agree to disagree on that. It's not going to really take away from my enjoyment of them. But in a critical discourse, I have never said that a Marvel movie is superlative to a Quentin Tarantino movie or a Bong Joon-ho movie or a Celine Sciamma movie. Like, I don't say that. You, like, have at some point have been, like, they're really important for, like, XYZ and yada, yada, yada. Which, like, they're really important for like XYZ and yada, yada, yada, which like they are. Yeah.

And, and, but then like, so is Taylor Swift and you used to get your, uh, you know, my hackles up. Yeah. About that. Yeah. Can I be honest though? And that's okay. She's like doing more, you know, like she is doing more than most artists.

She is giving her fans more than most artists. Like she's working harder than a lot of artists who have her level of fame or who have her level of access. And I think that there is whether it's like conscious or subconscious. There is some level of like fans feel like that is reciprocated. And so they are more likely to engage deeper. I think some of the like fandom, you know, stand-em or whatever you want to call it, I think some of that is like campy performativeness and it's fun to be like to put that hat on for a day. But I think a lot of that, I honestly think a lot of that is that she just has a lot of output,

you know, 10 albums is a lot for someone who is 34 or however old she is. And she's basically released albums every two years or like with the you know the pandemic like she released two albums during the pandemic when a lot of people were not releasing anything and i think that that has kept the like the level of consistent engagement with her music your mileage may vary on like whether you like the evolution of her musical style but she has at least like painted this consistent picture throughout her whole career that I think fans really respond to. And that I think is definitely like reflected.

Also to Bobby's point, she just like keeps deliver, like she is offering new content, you know, like she, she understands. She's just like, and here's another thing.

She engineered this, the re-release phenomenon which I think has like played her major role as basically as I said to you Sean about kind of just like resetting her career for a new generation of fans but she is essentially re-releasing all of her albums for you know for younger people so you can feel like you're getting something new and I like I am absolutely stunned by the like frenzy that she has managed to recreate around re-recording her masters and, like, putting them out. Yeah. Like a music business story.

And people are, like— She narrativized it. She narrativized it in a very smart way. And she had an opportunity to position herself as an underdog. And I think that that is part of what rebooted for a new generation. Because a new generation of fans got to discover those songs. They got to quote unquote support her

by participating in the new recordings. All of those things. Every single album has chronicled all of this on their podcast. And you can listen to it if you want to know it in detail. We don't have to do every beat of her career. When I was in the message boards this weekend, it was people being like, hey, was there anything at the Seattle show that may give us a clue as to what the 1989 re-release will feature? And I was like, don't you think it'll feature 1989? Which is like, you know, but it's amazing.

People are so locked into it. I don't know. Like, it is impressive. I don't, I relate to her in different ways, know. Like, it is impressive. I don't, I relate to her in different ways, but it's, it is impressive.

To borrow a phrase from the baseball world, she posts. She shows up every fifth day for her start, you know? She delivers consistently. Oh, I thought you meant

she like posts on the internet. She is like, she posts on the internet also. She is for sure. But like, she shows up. She posts her name on the roster. That's what I mean.

Like she's there every day. I turned to Amanda at one point during the movie and I was like, do you think Taylor Swift spends several hours a day looking at her mentions? Because a lot of her songwriting feels like someone who is very aware of what's being said about her. And working in response to that. The way that this movie made $ hundred million dollars and the way that the heiress tour became a phenomenon is because she is aware of everyone like on Reddit and on Instagram and on like she is,

she understands how the internet works and how her fandom is working and like knows how to use it and knows how to play to it. And it's like really active on it. And does that also mean that she has posting disease? Yes. But is it like making a lot of money for her? Yes. I have posting disease about the Jets.

That's the only thing I have posting disease about right now. Big day for you. Huge day. Incredible day. Incredible day. I got to sit beside two Eagles fans. Got to rain on Philadelphia's parade. Huge for me.

Three actually. That's true for a hot minute. Three, actually. That's true. For a hot minute. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a little Knox action, too. He likes to watch ball. We were watching ball together. Yeah.

Ball. Does he just point at the TV and say ball? Yeah. Pretty much. And then sometimes he applauds. Not a lot to applaud yesterday. Yeah. It's like 75% of Americans' engagement with the sport of football.

He was sent out of the room with like four minutes left. Because I was hanging out with the sport of football. He was sent out of the room with like four minutes left. Because I was hanging out with Eileen and Alice and then he was like deposited in the other room when things got really tense. And then they went

very well. Yeah. Things went very well for the New York Jets yesterday. That's part of the reason why I think I have such a big hearted

spirit to Taylor today. That's beautiful. Should we go back to the set list you think? Sure. I like these kind of interjections of concepts and ideas about her persona

and her career, though, throughout. So, we pivot from Lover to Fearless. Three songs are played from the Fearless album.

This is the one that you got into? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is like, is this your big? I mean,

this is when she, I mean, she first goes mainstream. No, no, no, no, no.

This is like when, like like Taylor she's still like doing country but this is you belong with me this is as I said to you like Kanye interrupting at the VMAs like this is the whole that like Taylor Swift the phenomenon is born and this is the actualized achievement of her like I'm a teenager writing singer-songwriter stuff this is the actualized achievement of her, like, I'm a teenager writing singer-songwriter stuff. This is the most polished album of that era of her career. Totally. Also, like, You're Wrong, You Belong With Me is just, like, very powerful. It is evil. Like, I do, I would listen to You Belong With Me and...

It's like a cultist anthem. What are you talking about? No, no, no. So, I listened to Taylor's version of Fearless on the drive to work today. Did you know that if you ask Siri to put on Fearless by Taylor Swift, she automatically puts on Taylor's version? Of course. She's done a lot of work with Apple Music. So I was listening to You Belong With Me and then I was once again listening to Love Story, which I believe as soon as it started, I turned to Sean and said something to effect of this song is evil but it rules you did say that um and i have thought a lot about

what you might be teaching alice if you ever let her listen to these songs and i hope it won't be your decision um and it's like not what the the lessons are not what I would want to teach my son or daughter or anyone, you know, just about just what we value in life. What? Well, I'm going to say I said it to you when we saw the movie. Yeah. If Alice loves Taylor Swift, I will support that. I will take her to the concert. I want her to love what she loves.

I will not get in the way of that. I promise. Knock so far seems to respond to Taylor Swift. He likes a female vocalist she loves. I will not get in the way of that, I promise. Knox so far seems to respond to Taylor Swift. He likes a female vocalist. I believe that. We're in a big dancing era. I'm a little reluctant

to start putting on reputation era songs in the house. That's not really something I want to choose to do. Right. But if it's something that she learns about

and she's into, go with God. That's great. You know what this is? But this is what I'm doing now is adjudicating the songs that people were like, this is the greatest song of all time. They were like, it's Bob Dylan You know what this is? But this is what I'm doing now is adjudicating the songs that people were like, this is the greatest song of all time.

They were like, it's Bob Dylan and then it's Taylor Swift. And I was like, what is going on? Why are we conflating these things? Because this was the only era that I actually listened to where I was like, all right, I'm going to sit down.

I can't believe we didn't take a bet over when Bob Dylan would be. Look, Bob Dylan rules. I took a class about Bob Dylan in college. I believe I am still a published Bob Dylan scholar somewhere. You're a published Bob Dylan scholar? Published undergraduate Dylan scholar. Yeah, but I never got a copy of the journal.

I'm not saying that you said that or you said that, Bobbi. I merely, I've been transported back to 2008 where I was sitting in bars with grown men who were like here's the lineage my friend it starts here it's you know it's Pete Seeger he writes some anthems for the working man and then we move to Bob Dylan and then very slowly but surely we arrive at Taylor Swift in the bleachers and I was like is everyone is this a mass delusion of our culture? Now, I have no idea what's happened since. This is like, just hold on to this feeling. Because that's how I feel talking to you like 70% of the time. That's not true.

I have an absolute sense of humor about all the dumb shit I like. Am I over the top about things? Of course. Like, I did this whole thing about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie on the pod without you because I was like, this is such a joke. What a clown I am reveling in my 12-year-old feelings. I have a self-awareness about this. I saw that movie. I merely ask it.

I'm not saying you do. I wasn't here. We talked about it. No, Transformers. Sorry, not Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Transformers. Another relic of my childhood. Sure. Transformers another relic of my childhood sure I think what I'm trying

to say is the directness with which I was talked to about Taylor Swift I found very strange it was there was

a self seriousness that I found weird I see a sense of humor in her now in a lot of ways I think actually like the more theatrical she got

the funnier the more winking she got the funnier the more interesting it gets to me this era though this is just not really my kind of music but that's fine like I don't really got, the funnier, the more winking she got, the funnier, the more interesting it gets to me. This era though, this is just not really my kind of music, but that's fine. Like I don't,

I don't really ultimately have beef with it. I was saying to you that there is an alternate universe where she's more like Pink or Sam Smith, where she's just like a very successful pop star whose music I don't listen to and who I don't really have to think about or engage with. And I have nothing against either of those artists. They're just, they're doing their thing and I'm not participating. Yeah, they're just not on your radar, yeah. But because she has become so successful and so co-opted by both the culture,

the business, and the critical community that it is this amazing convergence of discussion. But this is, you're right, this is where, these three songs really

are kind of where it metastasizes and becomes inescapable. Were they good performances of these songs? Yeah, they were fine. I actually don't remember them very much. I do remember all of the young women in our theater standing up for the key change of Love Story, which is a very powerful key change but is you know marry me juliet you'll never have to be alone talk to your dad go pick out a white dress you know i have moral objections um but it was also everyone was really psyched so for what it's for what it's

worth i think she's tried her best to distance herself from this era of her music as much as possible too she doesn't notably doesn't play any songs in the set from her first album the self-titled album Taylor Swift including our song

which is beloved by fans no she played it in the it's in the acoustic set right true and she played that as a bonus song

or as a surprise song that she called them but there is no section of the concert that is about her it's not part of it was no section of the concert that is about her it's not part of this it was not part of the

the regular set list at the tour so like I did not see that song for example so I mean I think that she kind of recognizes that too that it is

oh that song wasn't played at your concert no oh that's interesting those two songs in the acoustic set were different at every show oh okay

that's interesting I didn't know that and there was like a lot of speculation of what there would be and people hoping that they would get this song or that song that's smart yeah that makes because that's yeah okay anyway um okay evermore you got very you got very angsty when this started i realized that i don't think i've listened to this album in full. It's not my vibe. This was the second of the two pandemic albums that she released. It's not for me.

And it became very clear very quickly that this setting and the direction for the Evermore set was sort of a medieval ghoul vibe. Like the macbeth witches but but pop right this was the orbs yeah cloaked women so i was a combo of bored and not feeling it because here's here's something i learned you should probably know most of the songs before you go to a three-hour movie concert, because otherwise you'll get bored, you know? When the second song in the set, Marjorie, began, I went downstairs and bought snacks. Right.

And so you missed Champagne Problems, which she did on the piano, which is sort of Champagne Problems I had heard. And it is sort of, it's celebrated, right, Bobby? Yes. It's pretty well liked um and it is a um a short story about a young woman who declines a wedding proposal right and so there are champagne problems because there's champagne but she said no um thrilling metaphor um i yeah it's not for me i'm checking in on bobby's face more often than usual during this pod just to see if i can get a rise out of him um it's been working so far um i don't remember much else about this here's the candy i bought uh i bought sour patch

watermelons as always a go-to at any AMC. Delicious. Amanda requested Raisinets and a Coke Zero. Yeah. Unfortunately, there were no Raisinets on offer. That's an increasing problem. They're being pushed out of the culture. At both AMC and Regal. And I want to let everyone know that Lamley and Landmark are still offering Raisinets. And just that's one more reason to support your local independent movie theater?

I think it's Big Bunch O' Crunch is pushing Raisinets out. And so in an effort to get you some chocolate of some kind, I brought back Bunch O' Crunch, Junior Mints, and M&M's. Plain M&M's. And that's what I had. You know, AMC sometimes has like... Who sells the cranberries? What's the company? Like Ocean... Ocean Spray.

Ocean Spray. Like maybe they have Ocean Spray chocolate-covered raisins sometimes. Or if not Ocean Spray, one of the raisin companies. Anyway. So they're selling off-brand Raisinets sometimes. Okay. Justice for Raisinets.

I got a Sprite Zero. Yeah. yeah large and i drank all of it and i had to go to the bathroom three times during the movie um well i guess basically once and then after the movie but yeah that was way too much spread it's the most spread i've had in about 10 years it was delicious then uh evermore wrapped and we got to reputation now um i of course became aware of look what you made me do because at the time the taylor swift kanye west war was raging this was her sort of response diss to the the war that really kanye was waging on taylor yes and and then his then wife kim k Kim Kardashian, and the release of the tapes and the snake emoji was what Kim used when being like, she's a liar. And then Taylor took the snake emoji for her own. So I wanted to ask a question about the snakes at the stadium.

Were those on like the walkway screen or was that CGI that they added into the movie? I was trying to remember that. They definitely added CGI that like wrapped around the walkway, but I do think that they were on the walkway as well. I'll just say I thought that was unnecessary.

I agree. I thought that all of the kind of like CGI transitional stuff was unnecessary. I thought that we would have kind of got the picture when she started singing songs from the albums

yeah I completely agree yeah I think we got it with the snake thing so yeah I would agree wouldn't it be great if Harrison Ford just came out and was like

I hate snakes why does it always have to be snakes or Samuel L. Jackson I'm sick of these motherfucking snakes of my era's tour motherfucking plane

yeah so this album okay these songs to me sound like Imagine Dragons songs and that's not cool to me and I I didn't know that this was like a

like a sound that she produced or like like leftovers from Nicki Minaj albums you know like there's a very kind of very R&B Rihanna influence, like dance pop influence. Maybe some Gaga is in here too in terms of like what the mode of pop dominance

could be for Taylor that a lot of her contemporaries were pursuing. Selena Gomez, Demi Lovato, Justin Bieber, like there's an entire wave a generation of artists who do a kind of elevated R&B dance pop

that this feels like now I haven't listened to this album in full I've only heard these four songs I've definitely heard Look What You Made Me Do a bunch of times

that is her worst song yeah that's not representative really of the rest of the album okay to me I

this is the primary example of like this is an incredibly opportunistic artist attempting to level up on the backs of many other artists. And also using her kind of primary mode of like axe grinding to elevate up. And like in the peak times where like pettiness was celebrated in our culture and kind of still is. But like, you know, very smartly positioning

a lot of that stuff to be like, this is my narrative and this is how I win. And I get, I get why it worked. Like I get why she did it. Yeah.

It's, it's just not, it's like literally not a sound I think makes sense with her as a singer. So Bob, and Amanda,

it felt like you were kind of like, I'm not, I wasn't into this. I didn't like it at all. She worked a lot with Max Martin and Shellback on this album. It's like half them and half Antonoff.

And so I it's Bobby it's interesting that you think it's the best music. I think it's. I don't think it's the best music. I think it is her most like exploratory album. It sounds the most different from the rest of her music. And I think that it is wildly successful in some places and wildly unsuccessful in other places like What You Made Me Do. But it has become the album that like critically among people who like want to think seriously about her albums like, oh, she tried more stuff.

She's like trying different synths. She's trying to make music that sounds not as obvious. So like your characterization of it as like as dance pop in the Selena Gomez era, I don't actually think if you listen to the album cover to cover, it really sounds as popcorn or as sugary as some of those kind of trends felt at the time. It feels a little bit more in your face. And I think that that's why it plays so well at a concert.

It is campy in a way. It is over more like in your face. And I think that that's why it like plays so well at a concert. It's like it is campy in a way. It is like over the top in a way. And if you can sort of like buy into that, I think some elements of this album are like particularly loved within the fandom. I'll say this. I thought visually, film wise, I thought that this looked the best and was the best part and i think some of that is because to sean's point the four songs that she played are very consciously borrowing from all of the other pop stars you know that i that i love and specifically pop stars who fill a stadium and who so i mean like the choreography and they're just all up on that big platform and the cameras like going around and it just it looks like what you expect a pop stadium show to to look like, I guess, just because we've been trained in the language of everyone else. So for me, I think this was the most of like meeting the expectations of the setting and kind of like what I expected.

Okay. But I don't think the songs. And again, it's the thing where like, look, what you made me do is the lead single that is like playing off the Kanye thing. And it just like the single is bad. It's just like really bad. And the rest of the songs, I don't even really remember them. I really thought Ready For It was like a straight up Imagine Dragons song. It really sounds like if you just let that guy sing that song, it would also be a hit.

But I would not like it. And I don't know what to do about that. Where are you at on Endgame with your boy Future? Can't say I've heard it. That is fascinating. Because you're like a future guy. I know. And this came out.

He's kind of lost the plot. Speaking of artists who are like, you can release too much music. And he's put out so many albums in the last five years. You'll have at least two or three jump scares when you listen to that song for the first time. Just so you know. Everybody's just trying to get rich, you know?

In many ways, I have to just accept that this is our modern culture. Yeah. Only one Speak Now song. I was upset about that. To your point about speeding through the first three. ways I have to just accept that this is this is our yeah our modern culture yeah only one speak now song I I was upset about that to your point about speeding through the first three albums Bobby said something earlier which is she's trying to distance herself from this part of her life and I think she's really trying to distance herself from from speak now it is an album that is uh intertwined with a lot of like internalized misogyny I think is how the fandom looks back on the album and like if we can

like accept that she has moved past some of those like stereotypes that she was buying into at the time then the music is like pretty addictive in a way but it's not my favorite album and I think that it is not one that commercially plays as well. This is also the album that has the song Innocent which is the first song that she wrote about

Kanye in response to the VMAs incident, which is one of the most patronizing and cringy things ever written. Okay. This has your favorite song Mean, which was the one that she sang without shoes at the Grammys. I love Mean. Mean is so good. It is good. Yeah. Dear John is great too.

And it has Dear John, which might be her best song. It's not. All Too Well is her best song. But do you know about Dear John? I asked you to listen to Dear John. I remember this. I was... Did you listen to it?

Not last night, no. I have heard it before. I was very clear. I sent you a text message with instructions. I've been so obedient this weekend. I told you. I went to the show. And I said to you... I bought candy. I said to you, I need you. I was been so obedient this weekend. I told you. I went to the show. And I said to you.

I bought candy. I said to you, I need you. I was a good seatmate. I gave you, it was 10 minutes of listening. I said, I need you to listen. I just couldn't get off of Antihero. I was like, this is my shit now. To Dear John and All Too Well, the original version.

Did you listen to All Too Well, the original version? I didn't listen to All Too Well. Okay. And I told you that we would have to stop and listen to them together in the studio if you didn't listen. I was aware of the Speak Now songs. Red is when I kind of got out. So I don't know those songs as well, even though I know how beloved they are. You know what?

Let me take a quick break before we get into really the heart of this show. Okay. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. Okay, Red. This is Amanda's favorite. We just went past Speak Now. We don't get to talk about Dear John at all.

She didn't play it. I know, and I was mad. We're talking about the movie. It's such beautiful songwriting. And it's also the right kind of Taylor Swift penniness. Whatever. It's my time. I don't care. You thought that if you took a break and went to the bathroom that you were going to be able to stop us.

Have we fucking met? Here's the thing. Like. It's always nice to see you on Monday morning. This is Amanda's like 40 and 20 performance in the NBA finals right now. I just, you were talking about her vindictiveness and when she tries to like take it wide and broad and reputation it doesn't work but there is a wounded pettiness to this one

that is i think her true skill and genius and when she's they do like the mayor guitar solo it's just beautiful and i'm really proud of her that's all okay should we talk about red yeah i love red um this is my number one just just let the record stay yeah this is my number one yeah is that consensus i no i don't think so i don't think i mean certainly not among new fans so new fans all like the new stuff and are like i i and like don't care about anything before i guess folklore like lover maybe i don't know um i don't want to speak for the new fans they're on their own journey but there are two there's a there's a generational gap division between yeah but so red is when she makes a pretty conscious decision. She'd been leaning towards it, but she was, you know, identified with country music, was like their shining star and, you know, broadening from country.

And with Red, she's like, no, I'm a pop star. Yeah. And she's doing more like rock and she's doing more singer songwriter ballad stuff there there like is a little bit of countryish stuff but she makes like a pure pop play and i think at least the first half of it works unbelievably well it's all this is also this is the jake gyllenhaal album and i i vividly remember she'd been doing the liner note things for a while, but they were photographed. And then every single one of the liner notes like spells out the something referencing Jake Gyllenhaal. And so she's becoming like the Easter egg and the playing on the gossip and kind of using or weaponizing the gossip really like comes together with Red.

And it's beautiful. It also has her best song in All Too Well, the original version. That version was not performed at this concert. No. The 10-minute version was performed. You, which I guess was part of the re-recordings of Red. She issued a new version that was 10 minutes long.

A few weeks ago on the podcast you uh spoke out you spoke out loudly yeah about your um distaste for this 10 minute version that was performed at the show um i i went to the bathroom during this performance so i don't really have an opinion about it no you didn't did you yeah yeah because you got you were like no no i you didn't because when was it i i don't know but because i remember like literally pointing out to you like it's very long this is in the original and like this part isn't canon and i don't recognize this like so you sat there throughout the entire 10 minutes to support me right i did text a friend during it which was phones were like allowed and also the way the things were the seating and the seating i wasn't uh interrupting anyone but i had to text my I did text a friend during it, which was, phones were like allowed and also the way the things were.

The seating. The seating. I wasn't interrupting anyone, but I had to text my friend Willa just to be like, she's fucking singing the 10 minute version and I'm so angry. People seem to love it. Bobby, am I out to lunch on this? You're on like somewhat of a limb. I don't care. I would say it's a limb that i uh support yeah personally yeah i think that uh where i ultimately net out is that good for her for

putting it out if that's her creative intent and that's what she wanted to do and that's what the fans wanted but i personally still respond more to the original version and you as somebody who appreciates an edit a tight edit getting the best most synthesized version of something I can see your point don't throw everything against the wall

do that on your own time then edit then record a perfect song then release it then leave it alone that's the other thing that pisses me off the original All Too Well

as it says in the song was a masterpiece that she tore up this is like when George Lucas went in and put new CGI in the original, was a masterpiece that she tore up. This is like when George Lucas went in and put new CGI in the original Star Wars trilogy.

It's exactly like that. And we were like, we didn't need this. We didn't need young Jabba the Hutt in the movie. We were good. First one was good.

It takes away from the power of the original. She's like a more is more artist, you know? I'm just going to keep giving her more, more, more, more.

And sometimes that's good and sometimes it's bad. Sometimes it's good like in the From the vault tracks from red, which she should have worked into the concert because those are bangers. And sometimes it gives you the 10 minute version. We don't necessarily need it, but it's a commercial proposition. I think ultimately we are never, ever getting back together.

That's a good pop song. I like that song. Yeah, that was good. We're getting to the phase where, like, I remember where I was waiting for the live stream of the debut of the new Taylor single. I remember We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together and also Shake It Off, I'm sad to say. Yeah. But, like, that was a thing where you just, like, arranged your day. I think she did it on, like, a Thursday night at, like like 9 p.m. for We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together.

It's really good. I lived in Brooklyn Heights. I don't know. I'm just sharing now. I was alone. This is what she does. She creates personal experience and she makes you remember what your life was. That's a very powerful thing that she does. The most represented album by song

other than the new album is Folklore, which is the first of the pandemic albums that she released, I think in, was it in 2020 or maybe 2021?

2020. Which is a collaboration with Bryce Desner from The National. There's a Bon Iver collaboration. Aaron Desner?

Aaron Desner. Yeah. And is much more... Did you listen to the Bon Iver song? Iner Aaron Desner yeah and is much more did you listen to the Bon Iver song I've heard it before because it's on in my house okay that's good

my wife is the Bon Iver yeah she's the captain of the ship that's actually that's a really good song I guess it wouldn't be

concert appropriate also her now ex Joe Allen has a secret writing credit on it so perhaps yeah what's his under his student name or whatever so my word yeah So her now ex, Joe Allen, has a secret writing credit on it. So perhaps, yeah. What's his, under his pseudonym or whatever.

So my word. I thought this was fine. I mean, this is like, The National is a band that has never worked on me, but there are other bands that sound like The National that I'm interested in. I love Bon Iver. So I thought it was okay.

This was really fun because of the tidbits that I got to share with you during each of the song and i i thought folklore was okay too as i said i think i underestimated like either how much time i spent with it or how much it lodged in my brain the one is pretty catchy um betty i got to whisper over to you that this is named after uh lake lively and ryan reynolds's' children. The thing about Betty is like the classic, I'm too old to actually write about teenagers now. So now I just have to, you know, do my creative writing project.

And I don't love that. The last Great American Dynasty is about her house in Rhode Island. And that was a really fun thing to get to whisper to Sean and then for us to get to the line and then it was bought by me, which is just like an incredible thing

that happened on a song. Yeah. What the hell? Love to write songs about my mansions. One of my favorite pastimes as a relatable young woman. So we talk a lot about the Rhode Island home in Watch Hill on Jam Session.

And one of Juliet's fixations is just how exposed it is. There's absolutely like no cover. You can see all of it from the beach. You can see all of it. You can just like, I mean, there's security and like a large stone fence or whatever, but you can just walk right up. It's just a very, very strange choice from a strange person. That's all.

I thought that the like theatrical staging of the last great american dynasty was kind of weird yes but folklore yeah i got no beef august is a pretty good song i can't really make sense of the last three songs like which is which um 1989 followed that 1989 is that fair to say that's her most critically acclaimed album? I don't... I remember a wave of people who had been resisting her or who had felt like

maybe she had erred with Reputation. This is particularly from our generation. 89's before Reputation. Sorry. Yeah. They were maybe

a little skeptical of her pivot to pop with Red. Right. And it's confirmed that this was the right way for her to go. Her most kind of

fully tonally conceived album and that's because she worked so closely with jack antonoff right on it um and it did did also coincide with like a continuing this was the squad era if you'll recall like at the 1909 tour when she was like sashing down with you know the squad the women in congress is that who you're referring to? Yeah, that was it. I'm sure that she would do that now

if it were the 1989 tour. No, like the supermodels and then the Haim and sisters and, you know, she would bring out

like different friends each night and they would sashay around. And then, and then I think that seeded some of the, the, the backlash. But then I think that seeded some of the backlash. But I think it might be her most musically accomplished or at least consistent album.

It's the only one that I think... I think she's really talented. And I think you can turn off most Taylor Swift albums after about seven songs, which is true of a lot of people. So no judgment. It's hard to work at this level of volume and because they just get sort of experimental or things don't quite land or whatever and this at least is all of a piece and has the one of my favorite songs that was not played at the concert which I like this is when I was like actually outraged that song is out of of the Woods. Yeah. No Out of the Woods, Bobby.

What the fuck? See, I have a... And she does a whole thing at the beginning about, you know I love a bridge, and then you're not going to give me Out of the Woods? The bridge? I think Out of the Woods is a perfect example of a song that needs a different chorus.

Like I think the chorus is kind of annoying, and I think the verses in the bridge are amazing, but that's not one of my favorite songs of hers this album is sort of like fearless in the way that it was like the creatively realized version of this era of her career also like the pop era whereas fearless is like the synthesis of her like acoustic country pop and this is like the pop synthesis the synthesization um blank space pretty impressive piece of pop song writing. Can't deny that song.

I never quite got it with Style. I felt like I was always being told that Style was this like apotheosis and that doesn't work for me. It's about Harry Styles so that's why.

I get it. I get it. That was a thing at the time. Sean, you got to fire up a little Wildest Dreams and a little Clean. I did listen to 1989

last night it was pretty good i i'm i'm not i'm i don't have like a grudge against good songs um and bad blood is interesting like that also is kind of an undeniable pop song amanda noted this earlier i think but that was the song that really got all the kids out of their seats in our theater and got them like kind of huddling together and like swaying together um which i i wouldn't have guessed i would have guessed it would have been something sooner i would have as well and i don't know whether it was just like that they wished they'd done it for shake it off and they were finally like okay let's go do it i don't i don't know whether there was like

anything organized or rather it was just like an hour and 45 minutes in and a bunch of little kids like needed to go, need to go dance, get their energy, which was very cute candy for an hour. Yeah. Um, and then we had the surprise acoustic set. The two songs are played by our song and you're on your own kid.

What's your, on your own kid from, I don't know what that is. Midnight. Yeah. Oh, so she played an acoustic midnight song before leading into the midnight set. Wait,

so the, our song acoustic was my favorite part of the whole album i like this is an unsophisticated take but sometimes i just want taylor swift and a guitar you know like doing her thing that like actually is her power and i thought it was absolutely wonderful it's a note i made here i think i might have even said it to you when we were watching yeah but i was like when she's doing, she seems the most to me like the person that she is. Yeah. That is.

And maybe that's the way that I first saw her. But that seems like the mode that she's most comfortable in. When she's doing big pop songs and like dancing around and being sexy, I'm like, okay. Right. This doesn't really feel like who you are. But that's just my reading of it. Yeah. I could be wrong about that.

And then Midnight's, which I had never heard one second of I guess was only released what less than a year ago right? She played seven songs from Midnight's I guess technically eight

because this is theoretically the album she is touring behind and she closed with this. Bob what do you think about her decision to close with this? To close with

Midnight's the album? Yeah like songs that people probably have less of a relationship to than some of this other stuff from her catalog. I thought it, I mean, I mentioned this earlier, but I thought that it made sense sort of thematically to start with the album that you should have been touring

the last time you wanted to tour and then end with the album that you would have been touring in theory now had the pandemic not like thrown a wrench in your plan for world domination. And I thought that it was sort of a nice send-off Now had the pandemic not like thrown a wrench in your plan for world domination. Um, and I thought that it was sort of a nice, uh, send off and like reiteration of her,

the fact that she stands by this album. I think creatively people are pretty mixed. I think most people think that this is like a middle to back half tier album. Um, but just in terms of popularity, it's like, it's huge.

It's like every song on midnights has nearly a billion streams on spotify like it was a huge success like right off the bat because it is very like digestible as an album in a way that like maybe something like reputation was not when it first came out and i i mean i think i was not surprised to that she closed with this because this was like the thing that people were playing most recently. I guess if they were going to see her. This album? Yeah.

Not really. But that's not even fair. I just have not listened to it very much. I have listened to Antihero 45,000 times because it's everywhere. And also despite my quibbling with some of the poetry. It's just a jam. Like that's just like an absolute like stone cold hit. Yeah.

And I've heard karma a lot. Karma is very popular on Instagram. Okay. You know. A lot of people being like karma is my this. Karma is my that. You know. So I got it.

I've been working on a Zach Wilson. It's me. Hi. I'm the problem. It's me. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Right on time. I just want to seed that for you guys

so when things go bad later this season I'll have that ready to go Antihero truly exceptional piece of pop song structure This album

I didn't know that she had made this move I had not seen I guess because I don't consume anything about her that she was basically like I'm Caroline Polachek like Charlie XCX now.

That's a really interesting pivot for her sonically because those are like ice cool artists that are mysterious and have this kind of fractured sexiness and longing in their music. And Taylor Swift is like the most on the surface person ever. She's such a, she describes herself in the movie at a certain point as a millennial woman with cat hair all over her watching reality tv

and i appreciate that she's like that that's how she characterizes herself but then to make a very like cool subtle icy synth pop album is odd um the album is is kind of weird um it doesn't like none of the most of the songs don't have an instrumental melody to them like she provides the melody with her performance which is an interesting metaphor kind of like for the growth of her as an artist and her being the main attraction like it's just straight up way less about the music now versus the fact that it's her performing the music yeah This feels the most like dependent on her as an artist album

or like her as a singer and performer album. And so I think that she was probably psyched to perform it because people had developed relationships to them as like big

sort of like fill the arena songs. But it just doesn't really work for me in like firing up and putting headphones in and listening to this album. Okay.

That's interesting. The audience that we saw the movie with seemed to really enjoy headphones in and listening to this album. Okay. That's interesting. The audience that we saw the movie with seemed to really enjoy it. They seemed to have a great time. It's obviously been a big success.

You know, to me it's not saving movie theaters but it's something movie theaters needed especially when movies like Dune 2 were pushed to next year

and amidst the sag afterstrike she was uniquely positioned to sell this movie. You know, that many of the films that were scheduled for this week

or the week after it got chased off the schedule. Exorcist, Believer, which was quite poor as a film, moved up a week so that it wouldn't run

into the Taylor buzzsaw. It's clearly been a very big success. We already know that Beyonce has her version of this experience the renaissance film

is coming in December I'm very excited I have heard that that movie is more of a film and that there's more behind the scenes there's more sort of like decisions that are being made

and I think Beyonce either has a directing or co-directing credit on the movie which is something that Taylor does not have on this movie I would imagine

that the audience for that movie won't be as big, but I feel like there's a strong likelihood that it's a better film. Beyonce has also made films previously. Lemonade has kind of kicked off an entire era of this kind of artist-managed visualization.

And you can say that what that has created has not necessarily always been good for artist docs or artist films, but what she's done is pretty good um i'm not as like i'm not as up on renaissance i probably need to spend more time with that that's probably the one beyonce album i haven't listened yeah i mean you and i sort of like need to live a different life in order it is because it is so like dance influence i mean i've listened to it a few times i obviously really church girls rain there was a time where i was like running just a church girl on repeat and that was like a very special time in my life and my running era uh but um it's there aren't

like a lot of day-to-day circumstances where renaissance is like the right thing for me to put on which is a which is my problem not renaissance's problem okay you know and i'm really excited to go and experience and to see it and i also you know beyonce is a visual artist in all senses of the world she as you said she has experience making films but also like her choreography and like her dancing is unbelievable. Like one of the highest forms of art. So it's like, do I want to see that in HD? Yes, I very much do. I'm really excited.

This movie arrives at like a fascinating time. Yeah. I think, you know, Michael Jackson could have done this and there was a posthumous documentary called This Is It that was released. It was a concert film from him. Madonna probably could have done this. She did Truth or Dare which was a little bit more of an experiment. I think if three or four years earlier

than Truth or Dare if she had released a movie like this. Well, you know that she just launched the Celebration Tour which is this but for Madonna. Oh, interesting. And is it through eras like this yes um and i

it's in la in march at the at the forum just in case you're looking for a second christmas present for me after the sofia coppola coffee cup i'll think about that okay um just in case your budget was 350 instead of 275 You know, none of her other peers. I made a short list just off the top of my head. Harry Styles, Drake, Ed Sheeran, Adele, Kendrick Lamar, Sam Smith, Justin Bieber, Rihanna, Bruno Mars, Justin Timberlake. There's an echelon of pop stars. And then there's Beyonce and Taylor Swift. And then I think there's nobody else.

Do you agree with that now obviously there's like Bruce Springsteen and like art and you too and artists that will always sell out big towards like the Eagles playing together will it would always be a thing like there's going to be a version of that the ABBA holograms you know what I mean that will will sell out um but for this standalone artist from this generation um it's a unique thing. She is this signature white millennial artist, for sure. I wanted to,

the other thing too is it arriving in the summer of Barbie is really interesting. Yeah. There's, obviously, they should market more movies to women.

But like, this movie was like 80% women at the box office this weekend. I mean, yes to movies. Like, I think it goes beyond movies and i think part of the success of the eras tour and the renaissance tour is just like um like yes you know like women

have money and will consume things should you make them for us just just like just a note yeah you know do you think that the studios saw this and thought okay we got to get our shit together with this kind of thing no i don't think so either I really don't I really don't yeah there are very few women in green light positions in Hollywood I think they thought

wow like you know my daughter or my so you know the woman that I know might be interested in this which is

which is the problem I thought there was a very funny note in Matt Bellany's newsletter last night he suggested that after 60% of the tickets came in pre-sales, I think that led to some over-speculation

in the projections of what the movie would do, but that he thought that perhaps the social media videos of the pre-teen girls dancing like they were crazed cultists might have kept some people away from the theater, which I thought was very funny. And honestly, our movie was that. Yeah.

It was teenage. But that was very sweet. It didn't bother me, but... Yeah. Can I say, my movie was that. Yeah. It was teenage. But that was very sweet. It didn't bother me, but. Yeah. Can I say, my theater was maybe like 40% that in like one half of the theater. And then the other half of the theater, because I saw it kind of like in Midtown at 730. So it was like maybe a little too late for really young, the really young crowd to come see it. It was like people who were like wasted like

standing up dancing yelling screaming singing for them that's great just a different vibe you know like a real dichotomy of vibe and then there was like a couple people

sitting next to me that were just straight up sitting there in silence kind of like smiling and nodding along which I thought was the weirdest of all three options yeah I put together some

final closing questions for you guys okay first question post the Arrows tour film release and before embarking on the rest of this tour. Yeah. When will Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey breakup? Uh, that's a great question.

I have here the, uh, international dates for Taylor Swift, the arrows tour, uh, which kicks off Thursday, November 9th in, uh,

Buenos Aires. She does Argentina, Brazil, Japan, Australia, Singapore. These are all, and they're, I guess, so she does a November date and then she doesn't do anything again until February. So there is some room in December and January. However, I have heard that that is an important time for the football season. So will she be supporting the Chiefs' run to the Super Bowl?

Right. Or will she be preparing to dominate South America? Super Bowl 2024, Sunday, February 11th. She, I am sorry to say, is booked. Well, actually, her last show is in Tokyo on Saturday, February 10th, 2024. Okay. And then Tokyo is ahead. So, dateline-wise, she can make it back, right? She's going to gas up that private jet, baby. For that reunion of Eagles Chiefs. Her reunion with the Kelsey bros. Her reunion with her paramour.

Her lover, Travis Kelsey. Did you see Donna's appearance on the Today Show? I did not. They were like, how was it meeting Taylor Swift? And she was just like, it was okay. She was like, I'm Travis Kelsey's mom. I'm killing it. It was that. She was like, I'm Travis Kelsey's mom. I'm killing it. It was that she understood.

She was like under strict command to like not say anything. She did not say it was okay. Yeah, she was like, it was okay. Yeah, she did. She did. It was okay? Yes. And it was like primarily because she was so anxious about not saying anything that she's not supposed to say.

Like that's what you could tell. But she was really like, it was okay. Donna's an absolute legend. Team Donna forever. This is an important one. Yeah. I want to know the answer to this from both of you.

Is this apex mountain for Taylor Swift, or can she get even bigger than she is right now? I mean, we have asked this question so many times with her. That's the thing.

And, like, do I think a backlash is coming again? Yeah, probably. She's tempting the fates right now. Well, Sean asked me, he was like, do people ever call her out on any of this shit? And I was like, only during election years, which is true. And we have one coming next year. So we'll see.

But, you know, but that means that just resets it for another apex. So who can say? There were some sections of the fandom who are not particularly interested in her rumored relationship with the 1975 singer, Maddie Healy. Yeah, but she. Who is a messy and complicated person. She cleared out of that so fast. Yeah, she did. She had the masses coming out to defend her. Yeah, it was. She had the she had the

the masses coming out to defend her. Yeah, it was just like a tree pain exfil, you know, like incredible stuff and no one remembers now. This feels like

like this this is what Apex Mountain would look like, but you could make a career out of being wrong about calling someone who has who is as

monocultural and successful as Taylor Swift saying that this was their Apex Mountain like judging them, you know, like I'm the type of person that's going to weigh in someone who is as monocultural and successful as Taylor Swift saying that this was their apex mountain, like judging them, you know? Like, I'm the type of person that's going to wait and rather call it in hindsight. I don't think I need to call my shot on this one. Who's the number one artist you'd like to see copycat the Arrows tour? I mean, I clicked on the Madonna tour reviews to be like, okay, is this something that can happen for me?

Because I think I am to Madonna, what Taylor Swift's young fans are to Taylor Swift, which is, I was like much younger, just like the, the broadest version of it implanted on me in a very young age. And I didn't really, I picked up on like the controversy and the pop stardom

for sure, but everything of what she's taking from and all, like the controversy just kind of like blew over my head. So I,

Madonna's really important to me. Okay. Is Taylor Swift the answer for you? Lady Gaga. Lady Gaga, that's your answer?

Oh, wow. Yeah. Just because, I mean, I think that she is like a massive pop star but is not really interested in doing

the most obvious thing ever and whether that's visually creatively musically I just think it could be

a similar level of like rabid engagement but also with a more creative outcome than this film yeah I've never really been able to get my

arms around Gaga like in terms of understanding what's most interesting to her which I guess is kind of something that makes her interesting you know that she really kind of moves but when she commits to something she commits so hard exactly and then she moves on to another thing

and she obviously has a massive Madonna influence in a similar but different way yeah that would be a good one I want to see REM in the sphere but yeah no one's no that's different and no one i want to see rem in the sphere but um yeah no one's no that's different and no one's gonna make that happen no i don't like yeah i would like i would like that too yeah i want my chemical romance to get back together and make a new album and turn it into a concert film okay that's a good one that's just a me personally thing though i don't think that

that would have 100 million dollars in box office sales in the opening weekend. Probably not. I mean, Paul McCartney. Sure, yeah. And it's like in some ways has been doing a version of it, but like I would do that and I would cry. Okay, that's a good one. Yeah. I have one more question.

Sure. What's Sean's problem? He likes Madonna. He likes Michael Jackson. He likes Haim. He likes Olivia Rodrigo. He likes Dolly Parton. He likes Katy Perry. He likes Charli XCX and Lana Del Rey and dozens of other artists who were inspired or who inspired or were inspired by Taylor Swift here's what it is you mentioned that you find that we are never ever getting back together uh is a very cool pop song that includes a line about the ex-boyfriend listening to some indie record

that's way cooler than mine. I understand that your tastes weren't indie, you know, Brooklyn 2009 so much as they were hip hop and other things. But like, you're the guy that that is responding to and it pisses, yeah. That's what you think it is? I think you're a little bit, like a little bit,

you're the, you're the raucous on the, like, being like, what's wrong with poptimism? Like, a little bit. Yeah. A little bit. A little bit. Not really. I mean, I, I, I like wrote professionally about American Idol. Like, I, I really, at least I don't feel that way. And I, and I actually make a point to try to bring some of the elements of optimism to movies.

I think that there is something relevant there. I mean, I think what Bobby was saying earlier about having a monocultural community experience is something I actually really value with movies. But it would be okay to value that with movies and have a different relationship to music. It would. It would. There are some examples of it with music. have a different relationship to music. It would. It would. There are some examples of it with music. It is different when it's music. Yeah.

Because music is so persona focused and movies are experiential narrative. And so you're right. There's definitely a differentiation. What do you think, Bob? What's my problem? There's just like a slight, something is slightly off balance between like how good her output is with her total dominance of the industry. And it feels like the industry kind of bends towards her in a lot of ways. Honestly, I feel like a good comparison for this between straight line pop music is Drake,

who makes music that at varying levels has been good for varying for for various groups of people but he's like not doing the most interesting thing or the best thing basically ever in his career and so i just think that you are not interested in that like level of creative engagement with something that is not even the best version of itself it's just not really like it's just it's proof in the pudding that it's like not really a meritocracy in the music industry as it is not in most creative industries yeah well once you get yeah once you get up to an a higher echelon if you then just continue to feed the beast you will remain dominant um right i think that's that's insightful for sure drake is another example of an artist who i liked a lot more than i like taylor swift but like i have had the similar fall

off right that you were describing you had with Taylor where it's like somewhere around 2019 with Drake I was kind of like I this there's nothing new here like I don't really I don't know what would be the

upside of being as aware of every move he makes as I was 10 years ago right I mean part of that is aging yeah we're old yeah that's okay that's part of it I don't know

Taylor maybe I'll get into Midnight's that would be a twist maybe that'll be my big album you know I'm open to it

okay what do I have to lose I think you should you should live stream yourself listening to all of Taylor Swift's music consecutively I think there'd be

some licensing issues there yeah that is true I think if I played those jams on my social media, you know. Bro, donate it to charity. Taylor Swift would look too bad suing you for that.

Oh, you think I should try to make money off of that? Like live stream it for charity. So am I providing commentary or just like making faces? What's the execution? Whatever you need for fair use. You should do it like the Barstool pizza rating. Like as soon as the song ends, you're just like, seven out of ten, next song.

That'd be good. People would love that. The one bite only for Taylor Swift songs is a really good idea, actually. I'm not the best person to do that, let me tell you. Maybe Amanda should do it. Any closing thoughts on Taylor Swift on the Heiress Tour film? This was fun. It would be nice if they made more things

where you have to suffer through something for three hours instead of me. I felt like at times you were actually suffering more than I was. Sure, but that's just because I care. You know, I was suffering most during All Too Well, the long version. There were a lot of times where I was just confused. I was like, what is this about? Who is she singing about now? Yeah. Bob, you enjoyed it?

I did, yeah. I mean, I didn't think that it was like great as a movie, honestly. Yeah. I thought it was fun to listen to the music in a really loud Dolby room.

Can I just say I just love my friends at Dolby, you know, making it rock. I'm killing it. Making my ears ring as I'm coming out of there. That's just what I need.

It's what I want. I love that. So I thought that the experience, if you're a fan, was worthwhile. I thought that like the actual creative execution of the movie and like, honestly, some of the editing was kind of like weird and off-putting at times too.

But it was like very right down the middle, you know, it was very Taylor Swift. It was very just like broad appeal. It was what you came for and you got your money's worth probably if you're a Taylor Swift fan. So yeah, I broad appeal. It was what you came for and you got your money's worth probably if you're a Taylor Swift fan. So yeah, I enjoyed it.

Speaking of the Dolby Room, we'll be making a re-engagement later this week when we sit down for our second screening of Killers of the Flower Moon. No, it's actually

an IMAX room with Dolby. So it'll be a different theater. Okay. We'll be moving from 17 to 15. Okay.

Our second viewing of Martin Scorsese's Killers of the Flower Moon. And then the next day, Friday morning, we'll record our, what will probably be a very lengthy episode about that movie, which is one of the signature movies of 2023. Can't wait to see it again. Can't wait to talk to you about it. Bob, thanks for your work on this episode. Thank you for your insights on Taylor. I'm sure there are things I hope and need you to cut out of this podcast so

as to protect my sanity. Don't cut anything that I said about Dear John. I would never. I would never. Thank you to the

listeners. Thank you to the Swifties for enduring this and thank you to Taylor Swift for saving movie theaters. We'll see you later

this week.