The Big Picture - Ten Ways to Save the 2021 Academy Awards Mailbag Special

Episode Date: March 12, 2021

We're 45 days away from the Academy Awards, and less than a week away from Oscar nominations. Sean and Amanda sense trouble for the hallowed award show, so they dive into the mailbag to come up with some solutions for this weird season (0:30). Then, Sean is joined by Anthony and Joe Russo, directors of the highest-grossing film of all time, 'Avengers: Endgame,' to talk about their new film, 'Cherry' (1:01:32). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Anthony and Joe Russo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On TV Concierge, the Ringer staff delivers a guide to the vast streaming landscape by discussing one show or movie per day, including premieres, the latest surprise Netflix hits, periodic check-ins on favorite TV shows, new movies available for streaming, and the host's favorite shows to watch right away. Check out TV Concierge exclusively on Spotify. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about little golden statuettes and the podcasters who obsess over them. Later in this show, I'll be joined by Anthony and Joe Russo, the directing duo responsible for a few movies you might have heard of, like Captain America, The Winter Soldier, Avengers, Infinity War, and the highest grossing film of all time, Avengers Endgame. I talked with them about

their new film, Cherry, starring Tom Holland. It's available this weekend on Apple TV+. I hope you'll stick around for the chat. But first, we are 45 days away from the Academy Awards and less than four days away from Oscar nominations. Are we having fun yet, Amanda? I am. Are you actually having fun in this award season? So listen, it's a familiar position for me. I am used to being over-invested in certain completely meaningless topics that no one else really seems to care about. And every once in a while, someone pops up and is like, what's this about? And I tell them too much information and they're like, cool,

now I'm going to go watch WandaVision or whatever. So this is a very comfortable situation for me. It's really how, I guess it's some only child stuff. I have some enthusiasm. You guys want to get on board. Welcome. If not, cool. I'll just keep trucking along. You've been parsing Harry and Meghan all week, and now we're going to parse a different sort of complexity. So the Academy Awards, as I said, are coming up soon, which means that there are a lot of other award ceremonies and honorariums going around. On Sunday, we had the Critics' Choice Awards results. You know, I was not able to watch this because I am a subscriber to YouTube TV and the CW is

not offered on YouTube TV. So I simply could not see the Critics' Choice Awards. Did you have a chance to check those out? It went up against the aforementioned Harry and Meghan interview. So no, I did not. That was like a full stage event for me. You know, I had to watch. I had to rewatch. I had to answer a lot of the aforementioned text messages. Thanks to everyone for reaching out. It was great to hear from you guys.

And once again, I wish Harry and Meghan and specifically Meghan the best. I didn't get a chance to watch the Critics' Choice Awards, but thankfully we have the internet and they can share the results of those awards. So Nomadland won Best Picture and Chloe Zhao won Best Director and also Adapted Screenplay and Cinematography and the juggernaut that is Nomadland continues apace here.

You helpfully pointed out that only, Best Picture has only been predicted twice in the last six years by the Critics' Choice Awards, but I do think in this year in which the Golden Globes has seemed like a bigger joke than ever, maybe they have a little bit more cultural purchase maybe on what's going to happen with the Academy Awards. Do you have any relationship to the Critics' Choice Awards? I feel like in the last five years, they've somehow taken on a bigger degree of importance. I think I turned them on once. And once again, they just don't have the production budget that any of the other shows do.

And so I decided just to wait for the list of winners on the internet, which is a great thing that we can do. So I guess they make me feel like most other people feel during awards shows. That said, I did some researching this year into who is in the Critics' Choice Association. And helpfully, they list all the members on their website. Shout out to transparency. Novel idea. Right. And some journalists I really respect in there.

And I do think in terms of trying to be responsible film watchers and awarders, they are preferable to the Golden Globes. I do feel like this year, they were really like, we're just going to reward anything that we actually liked, which I don't really mind. It is a year where film needs championing. So let's just kind of put everything up there. But I don't know how indicative they are this year, other than the here's the playing field, if that makes any sense. Yeah, it does. I mean, I think we'll talk about a couple of other groups that did some nominating this

week, the DGA and BAFTA. And they all kind of have a bit in common. And it does feel like not just the races, but the leaders are concretizing. And that sort of we just gave the awards to who we liked feeling that you got from the Critics' Choice Awards, I think kind of sort of seems like the direction that the Oscars is rowing in, which is going to lead to me having a kind of phony existential crisis about this all over again. Hold on. Let's just parse that because we just gave awards to the things that we liked is how it should work. We just gave the awards to the things that we think are good.

Like that is what you want. But of course it makes for a garbage ceremony and quote narrative in, you know, our year 2020, where you only get attention if there's a controversy. And like, if you can make people mad and sustain attention for a long period of time, like that's what works. But it is a little sad that we gave the awards to the things we liked just makes you useless. Well, one, it's 2021, not 2020. This may be a 2020 award season, but unfortunately we have flipped the calendar. I really thought I added the one on the end there,

but I don't know. What is time? Yeah, I think that... Let's look at some of the other bodies because I think that that will inform some of what I'm feeling. And maybe you can disabuse me of those notions. So the DGAs, I think, actually had a quite radical set of nominations by its standards.

This is the Directors Guild of America. The five nominees for Best Director for a Feature Film were Lee Isaac Chung for Minari, Emerald Fennell for Promising Young Woman, David Fincher for Mank, Aaron Sorkin for The Trial of the Chicago 7, and Chloe Zhao for Nomadland. Now, since 2007, the DGA has recognized just two women total in this category. I believe those women are Sofia Coppola and Catherine Bigelow. And so, you know, this is progress, I suppose, in a word. You've got Emerald Fennell and Chloe Zhao here. And Chloe Zhao certainly seems like the leader in the clubhouse for this award. And so that is something. That being said, a lot of people predicted this fivesome. And perhaps Regina King is considered on the outside looking in. She's

the one other person who I thought maybe had a chance to contend. Also, maybe Paul Greengrass for News of the World. But any takeaways? Anything meaningful from the DGA noms? I think we should note that Regina King was nominated in first-time feature, which is a category that the DGAs have that maybe the Oscars should take. Just a suggestion. Perhaps we'll come back to that. Yeah, I think you're going to be hearing a lot about how we're, quote, raking records with the number of female directors this year. Congratulations. Call me when it's the same number of awards you've given out to men over the last however many years. Well, I think we'll be long and dead by then. So that's not really,

it's going to be, we've got 100 years of film history to catch up on. So that's going to be a problem. The BAFTAs are a different sort of thing. So obviously the BAFTAs have a long and complicated history with their inability to recognize actors and filmmakers of color. This is not so significantly different from some of the controversies and complex conversations happening around the Academy Awards circa 2014, 15, 16. The BAFTAs, though, have not progressed, I would say, have not evolved as an organization as quickly as the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences has. So BAFTA changed the way that they nominate people this year in an effort to reflect that ongoing issue. Can you explain to me how the BAFTAs picked their nominees this year? It's very strange.

I mean, I'm just going to read something from the New York Times because it's extremely confusing. But essentially, they brought in juries. So BAFTA required all of its 7,000 voting members to undergo unconscious bias training before voting on this year's nominees, as well as requiring them to watch a selection of 15 films to stretch the range of titles viewed. And then the nominees were selected for the first time for the long list prepared by BAFTA with the input of specialist juries. So it was only Best Film that received nominations from the broad group of BAFTA, but then all the other categories were sort of handpicked by these specially selected juries, which included some BAFTA members and some non-BAFTA members. So the whole thing is very confusing. Now, obviously with the BAFTAs,

there are a number of films that will be recognized in their list that U.S. audiences are not familiar with. They're British films, typically, or films that come from the colonies, so to speak. The Commonwealth, I learned so much about the English royal experience this weekend. We can't get into the Commonwealth and that concept on this podcast. We don't have this kind of time. But on the other hand, there were a number of films that were recognized. Now, the group of actors and filmmakers who were recognized throughout the BAFTAs was an incredibly diverse group, easily the most diverse group in the history of the BAFTAs. But the best film group,

which was voted on by the total body, was just super BAFTA-y. It was their three British films, which is not surprising, The Father, The Mortanian, and Promising Young Woman, and then Nomadland, and then The Trial of the Chicago Seven.

So what do all those films have in common? None of those films are black-led. So no Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, no Da 5 Bloods, that whole collection of films that are being recognized over and over again. No One Night in Miami, they're just not here. And so I guess BAFTAs, even in spite of themselves, BAFTAed. Yeah, just a tremendous week for also,

for that to come out related to, you know, the UK. I believe it was Pete Hammond at Deadline who pointed out that Denzel Washington, who famously has never been recognized by the BAFTAs, was eligible as a producer on Ma Rainey's Black Bottom for a BAFTA this year. And once again, nope. That's just insane. Yeah. Never been recognized.

Okay. So, you know, I think on the one hand, the BAFTAs can somehow sometimes signal importance in the event of someone like Olivia Colman when she's in the running and a strong show. Of course, there are a number of British born actors in the Academy. So that does matter in some respects to predicting the horse race. In other respects, this seems like a very odd year to be looking at that because of the way that some of these folks are recognized. Nevertheless, kind of an interesting collection of nominees. I recommend people check out the full list. Golden Globes lessons. We went live after the Globes

and basically like, man, Globes, what a joke. It was fun. It was nice to have a three-hour award show. Nice to be distracted. A couple of good moments, but clown show. And we were one of, it seems like 38 people that watched the show. It's a real shame. I'm surprised people tuned into the podcast, frankly, because only 6.9 million people watch the Golden Globes, which is a historic low in a serious magnitude. And that's kind of what's got my hackles up about all this stuff. You have been a voice of reason over the course of the last few years

since we've been doing this show about the shrinking ratings on live television and whether they are reflective or not reflective of a shrinking movie culture, a shrinking interest in this area that we cover here. But 6.9 is bad. 6.9 is bad. Sure. They are reflective of a shrinking interest in movies because people just stay at home and watch TV right now. They are also reflective of a change in how people watch television and how people watch live events and how people relate to their screens. It's not surprising to me that no one watched the actual Golden Globes, but maybe they watched like three or four clips on their phone, on the social media

thing of their choice. And if they care about awards, listen to our podcast. Like we live in a world where you can consume only supplementary material. And in fact, that sometimes the supplementary material is more compelling than the like original text. I do also think we have to keep in mind this is a weird year. No one's seen these movies. Everyone's very tired of Zoom. Again, I don't know what year it is. I do think that we're still in a really strange place in terms of our relationship to movies and time and commemorating the past year. That's definitely right. And it's a double whammy for the Academy Awards.

Obviously, the films are not as widely seen, though they're more widely available in aggregate than they ever have been at this time of year for the awards. I think there's a bunch of things that are working against them in addition to the fact that people are consuming things differently. And we have a bunch of great questions from listeners of the show who are kind of interrogating some of the reasons why this may or may not be the case. I just don't, the thing I'm trying to figure out that I am turning over in my head,

and frankly, I don't know why I care about this so much. I'm still working it out. You know, life is just a journey of self-exploration and why I care about the ratings of the Academy Awards is almost certainly the saddest thing about me. But when I see it... Like not even top 20. Not even top 20.

That'll be another podcast that we do right after the Academy Awards. Insanely rude. When I see 40 million people watch the Oscars, I feel validated. I feel like my commitment to this space, not just award shows, but movies and movies on a grand scale. It feels meaningful. And when it shrinks down to seven million, I mean, there are 380 million people in this country. Seven million is fucking bad.

So I'm feeling it. I get it. I think your feelings are right and smart in terms of money and being able to continue to do this. But let me just offer a thought experiment to you. Wait, my money? Are you talking about my money? No, but if no one watches the Academy Awards, then no one makes any money and then they don't do it anymore.

I mean, we live in a society, as I've learned via some trailers of movies I am not looking forward to watching. But I just want to offer you a thought experiment. Come over to the other side. Let's get back to like our early college. I liked it before it was cool roots. Okay, let's just do the this is for us only. And if you don't want to be a part of it, that's on you.

Good luck with your sad hobbies. Like this is our time. And this is for the people who care and have taste. Oh, I see. So this is now for the people who care and have taste. Oh, I see. So this is now for the real heads this time. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That's so crazy.

I mean, I definitely think that this show gained a great identity when we started throwing ourselves aggressively into award season. And now I feel like award season is the last thing I want to talk about because it seems so small. Nevertheless, we're going to we're going to talk about it because we got to cover this season effectively because it is historic. And whether the ratings are way down or what have you, regardless of how the movie industry evolves out of this moment, and it does seem like more and more people are being vaccinated

and there are more and more conversations about the opening of movie theaters and what will happen going forward with the way that the industry resets once we get past this horrible moment in time. It's all, This still matters. The way that this show is handled, the way that these stories are covered. So voting closed yesterday. We're recording on Thursday morning and it closed yesterday at 5 p.m. So it's kind of hot off the presses.

All of our feelings are fresh. I thought we should try to predict the best picture nominees because this is the last year when we're going to have 10 or fewer nominees. Next year, they're changing the rule again to 10 full nominees, which I think is a good change. That's a change that, you know, back in 2009, they were willing to recognize movies like District 9

that didn't necessarily always get Academy love because when you have to stretch it out, you get some more esoteric choices. And over the years, this race has gotten more and more predictable. And the nominees have gotten more and more predictable. And even movies like I Think of Knives Out last year was a movie that was tipped as a potential nominee, but then at the last minute, didn't make it as the 10th. And there were only nine nominees. There have been a few examples of this over the years where films have just missed out and it would have been nice to see the cast at the award show. It might have changed the dynamic in the race in some respects. So this year, how many nominees do you think we're going to have? Eight or nine. Well, you got to pick. Why not? Why? We're making up new rules for everything. New attitude, new rules. I don't know.

Okay. Nine. Okay. So we're going to go back and forth. We're going to name a film. Okay. And you're going to tell me if you think this film is going to be nominated. Okay. Can we start though by reading out the PGA nominations? I was in charge of the outline and I forgot to put PGA nominations in. But they did come out this week and they are usually a very solid indicator of best picture. So they gave us 10 nominees and I'll read them because I think they're probably the list that we're working with. Do you disagree?

No, I completely agree. Okay. So here they are. Borat's subsequent movie film, Judas and the Black Messiah. Ma Rainey's Black, I completely agree. Okay, so here they are. Borat's subsequent movie film, Judas and the Black Messiah, Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, Mank, Minari, Nomadland, One Night in Miami, Promising Young Woman, Sound of Metal, and The Trial of the Chicago 7. Okay, 10 films. Definitely not the 10 films I would have guessed 14 months ago. Not even close. I don't know if I would have been able to guess more than three of these films making the cut.

Here's what I... Okay, let's do locks. Okay. Nomadland. Nomadland. Number one with a bullet is Nomadland right now. I think Minari is a lock. Yes.

I think Minari has picked up a huge wave over the course of the last three or four weeks, which is great to see. I think Ma Rainey is a lock. I think Minari has picked up a huge wave over the course of the last three or four weeks which is great to see I think Ma Rainey is a lock I think I think Mank is a lock now I have seen some people speculate that Mank may take a nosedive here but Mank has been recognized by almost

every single sort of artisan body out there it's probably the most recognized film but there is a low amount of enthusiasm for it on a person to person sort of artisan body out there. It's probably the most recognized film, but there is a low amount of enthusiasm for it on a person-to-person basis. But I do think it's a lock. I do as well.

I think the one guild that has not embraced it didn't do great at the SAG award, at least nominations-wise. And actors are traditionally a large voting body at the Academy Awards. You shared something with me recently by a writer, a statistician named Walt Hickey, examining the ways in which the breakdown of the Academy has changed in the last few years. It's really interesting. I recommend it.

One of the big takeaways that actors influence shrinking a bit. So maybe in that sense, Make has a chance. I think it does. I think it's going to be there for sure so that that these are the locks we just named you forgot trial of chicago seven and i was just going to mention trial of chicago seven so maurini's black bottom mank minari nomad land and then i think trial of chicago seven that is a strong, a tight five. Everything else, I have varying levels of comfort with. So of the next five, and that means Borat, Judas, and the Black Messiah, One Night in Miami, Promising Young Woman, and Sound of Metal, what do you think is next on that list of this is going to be there?

Promising Young Woman. So fascinating. So Promising Young Woman, I realized this after we had our conversation about the film on the show, is not available at a more reasonable price to be rented until next tuesday so i think what's going to happen is next tuesday we will know the academy award nominations because they're coming out next monday and all a lot of attention is going to be heaped on that movie and i wonder what happens when it continues to go through the take cycle on a more grand scale i'm very curious i actually i have no sense of how it may be hugely celebrated.

It may be denigrated. It may be knocked down a notch. It may mean Carey Mulligan becomes the clear front runner for best actress, but seems like a pretty significant turning point. But that's not going to happen until Tuesday. So the nominations will be out Monday. So I'm with you. Promising Young Woman will be there.

So now we've got Borat Judas, One Night in Miami, and Sound of Metal. This is a weird one, but it seems like Sound of Metal. I think so too. There has just been consistent appreciation for it across nominating bodies and guilds and in everything from the performances to Best Picture to some of the technical categories. Obviously, Sound in that one is pretty accomplished and you can't make the movie without it. But it just seems like people really like that movie.

This is the one movie that we have not devoted an episode to out of this whole bunch. And there's probably a lot of reasons for that. I think I was a little bit... I thought it was fine. I think you thought it was fine. And I've personally been surprised

by the boom that it has had. I think a lot of it is a Riz Ahmed, like the totality of his performance. And he's been recognized by almost everybody throughout this process. But it's interesting. I mean, I agree with you. I think this is in. So now that leaves us with One Night in Miami, which I would say is also in. Yeah, I think so too.

And then the two the two big head scratchers there's a third film here that we can discuss too that was not recognized by the PGA but I suppose is potentially competing so that last film I think is News of the World I think Soul is probably out at this point which is just baffling to me this seems like if you were going to recognize a Pixar film

in a given year, this is the absolute best year to do it. That's a movie that a ton of people have seen that has been hugely critically appreciated. The family's like I don't know if it's gone into like the top five orbit for Pixar but it is very, very well liked movie that for whatever reason is

basically not competing at this level. Borat Judas, News of the World. Of those three, which do you think is most likely to join this crew of eight? I'm going to do Wishful Thinking here, but Judas and the Black Messiah. And I'm basing this on Phantom Thread, which was a movie that was under-recognized at basically every other awards show. But it came out a bit later in the season, and we really loved it. And it seemed like critics, and it just had a lot of popular appreciation.

And then we woke up on Oscar nominations morning, and it was nominated across the board. So I'm doing a little bit of the secret here but I think it's possible yeah I I hope you're right my my my dark intuition is that um you're not right I I don't know I don't I again it's a very it's very similar to the soul conversation where I'm like this is a no-brainer I don't you have to explain to me why sound of Metal is a lock and Judas and the Black Messiah is not a lock. That's not something I can really understand. But that's a bold pick. So that leaves us with News of the World and Borat 2. Now, when the PGA's first came out, I shared this list with you and I thought, oh, this is the lineup minus Borat. And you said, I wouldn't count out Borat. Where are you at on Borat being a Best Picture nominee in 2021? I can't just see it. I think there's obviously a lot of love for Sasha Baron

Cohen. He's been out there campaigning. There's a lot of love for Maria Bakalova, who won at the Critics' Choice Awards. That's right. So she has brand name awareness. And there's just a certain, it's a voter of a certain age who consumes a lot of cable news, who knows that they got Rudy Giuliani to do something awful in a room on camera and has a lot of admiration for what Sacha Baron Cohen has been doing over the last however many years. And I can see people being like, huh, that's pretty good. So you said eight or nine when we first started and now you're suggesting perhaps 10.

Well, I think I would be surprised if both Judas and Borat get in. I think it's one or the other. And I am a bigger fan of Judas and the Black Messiah. So once again, I'm trying to send good energy my way. Another of the rules in our new awards season, okay? You're sending good energy and you're narrow casting to all the true awards heads.

That's your big takeaway this year? I didn't say it was the smartest strategy. I said I'm working with what I have to try to make this a positive experience for you and me and people who like movies. I have some concerns about Judas, but I do think ultimately we'll get in and I don't think Borat will get in.

Okay. So my gut would be that the roster would be Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, Manc, Minari, Nomadland, The Trial of Chicago 7, Promising Young Woman, Sound of Metal, One Night in Miami,

Judas and the Black Messiah. That would be a solid collection of films. I think it would seem even more solid if more than just me and you and David Fincher's extended family appreciated Mank. And Ben Affleck. And Ben Affleck, thank you. We're in great company.

We're an excellent company. Okay, let's talk about one nominee from each group that we'd like to see. Because as I said, looking at the Critics' Choice Awards and thinking about the Globes and looking at the PGA's and the DGA's, it does sort of feel like we know almost everything at this point. And because this has been such an extended award season, we're so familiar with all of these names. Now, later in April, we're going to do our Alternative Academy Awards episode

with Wesley like we did last year, which was a lot of fun. But just talking about nominations, let's talk about movies we'd like to see recognized or people that we'd like to see recognized for their work in these movies. So, Best Director, is there someone that you would like to see

get recognized here? This is an interesting situation where there are five spots in six likely categories. And I think everyone is deserving in this category except for possibly Aaron Sorkin, who I like very much, but that's the spot that I would give away. So I would love to see Regina King and Chloe Zhao and Emerald Fennell and our friend David Fincher and Leah Zick-Chung all in there. And it doesn't seem like that will be happening, but don't make me pick between all the people I like. What about Spike?

I mean, that's the other really fun one. Yes. But he seems so clearly, it's like there are six and then there's Spike. Yeah. It's interesting. I'm kind of fascinated by how that happened he obviously was recognized for the first time for his work a few years ago in black klansman which is absurd that that was the first time that spike lee was recognized by the academy for best director this year i wouldn't say that the nominees are soft by any means but because there is so much kind of historic stuff happening amongst the nominees you would think that he would be competing at a level, but it just seems like we arrive at a place where we've just settled on a

group of nominees. You know, we've settled on David Fincher. We've settled on Chloe Zhao. We've settled on Aaron Sorkin, those three in particular, it's like, they're going to be there no matter what.

And then, so that leaves a very small window of people. I'm just trying to think of like, of my favorite films of the year. What's a movie that was not really identified as great? The thing I can't get out of my head about this, Amanda, as I've been thinking about the award season so much is Mangrove is not competing. When I think about the best direction in a film, and Lovers Rock too, obviously,

the twin episodes from the small act series that steve mcqueen made i'm like this just seems kind of dumb like in terms of recognizing great work i think what fincher and chloe zhao did in their respective movies was the best amongst the nominees those are my two favorites i've talked we've talked about those movies a ton on here but the thing that hit me that stuck with me that you can keep hearing people talk about whenever i interview filmmakers i'm like what'd you like this year? Like, listen to Shaka King talk about Lovers Rock. That's where people's hearts are in this category. And so it just seems so perverse that we're not talking about it. Yeah, I agree. I mean, also Shaka King, another

person who I would love to see. We're going to do alternative. and we can talk, we can make up like a whole wonderful, fantastical world to continue our very niche awards season coverage. What are we doing? But like, I completely agree with you. And the fact that the Small Axe series is just kind of competing on TV. I don't know what to say. Actually, I've said it a million times existentially on this podcast, but yeah, I don't know. It's a shame. Let's talk about best actor. Okay. So the two,

the two contenders that we love the most, I think are not going to be nominated. That's, that's a bit strange to think about too, but it's reflective of even what's going on in Best Picture and Best Director as well. So Delroy Lindo, obviously, has been campaigning his heart out. He is beloved. He is extraordinary in Defy Bloods as Paul. Really feels like a summation of an amazing career.

And it kind of seems like he's on the outside. And that's a drag. And I think you can expect on Monday morning a lot of people being like, what the outside and that's a drag and i think you can expect on monday morning a lot of people being like what the fuck where is delroy lindo yeah and i don't know how we'll rationalize it but that obviously would be a big one for me um what about for you for best actor i agree with delroy lindo and i we even had a conversation the other day just between the two of us where i was like do you think like maybe it could happen you know i have my hopes up a little.

So I guess that'll make for good content in terms of disappointment on Monday. There are two more actually that I'd love to see. One is like is plausible. Actually, it's not plausible, but he's at least kind of been in the running and another round has been like recognized consistently. And that's Mads Mikkelsen, just the Lord Mads Mikkelsen. That would be dope. Yeah. A wonderful performance. Again, if you've not seen another round, please seek it out.

At some point, we will talk about the ending with specifics, but I don't want to spoil it for people. But that alone, put that in an Oscar reel. And then the other person is just, I would love to have six more weeks of Ben Affleck content. I would love to have a lifetime of Ben Affleck content. Let's just get this man on another Zoom talking about films that he loves. I was looking at the Hollywood reporter Scott Feinberg's latest predictions, and he still got Ben Affleck in as a nominee for best actor. He is holding the line on Ben Affleck. Ben Affleck on Gold Derby is currently charting for his work. Oh my God, I'm still scrolling here. Where is the guy? Did I miss him? Where the hell is Ben Affleck? Oh no, he's number 23. I mean, that's just not what you want. As I said, I didn't think it was likely, but I just love basking in the warm glow of Ben Affleck on a Zoom.

As usual, the best actor category is effing loaded. You know, obviously Chadwick Boseman is almost assuredly going to win this award. But Anthony Hopkins for his work in The Father, I've not seen a single bad word uttered about that performance. And frankly, if there was no Chadwick Boseman, he would win. And I think deservedly. I think it's really wonderful. Again, I was surprised and I do recommend The Father. Also, I'm very late to it. You aware of Anthony Hopkins on Instagram? I am. Yes, I've seen some of his work there. You're into it? A plus stuff.

Okay. And then Riz Ahmed, who we mentioned, Gary Oldman and Mank and Steven Yeun seem to be the leaders in the clubhouse. That also means like no Tahar Rahim from the Mortanian. It means no Kingsley Ben-Adir, who once upon a time I thought was almost certainly going to be recognized here. So we'll see what happens there. I think Mads or Delroy would make for a really, really fun morning. So we'll see what happens in that respect. Best actress. What do you want to see? This one seems extremely locked up.

I think the Andra Day win at the Golden Globes kind of solidified her in the number five spot. And certainly the other four, Carey Mulligan, Viola Davis, Vanessa Kirby, and Frances McDormand feel like locks. Andrade's reaction to winning was so lovely. You know, that is kind of one of the award season moments that you need. And I think that she does a lot in a movie that doesn't really do a lot for her always. So I would be great with that. I, you know, you could, i liked zendaya and in malcolm and marie and i like seeing her there and that's another person who has some great presence but i

zendaya will have other chances so i'm okay with this lineup it's a good point i would like to see zendaya too one curveball i could see i've been i've been disabused of the rosamund pike thing um people are saying that that's not a thing, that that's just a Golden Globes weirdness. We shall see. But if there's going to be a surprise, I could be way off base about this, but I feel like there might be an odd Michelle Pfeiffer, kind of like it's time recognition for French exit with,

which is a film that not a lot of people have seen that really just didn't work for me, honestly. And I think what she's doing is a very particular, a lot of choices in her performance. But that's a very familiar name to a lot of voters, someone who has not been properly recognized by the Academy in the past. And I don't know, I just, I got a weird, I got a weird tingling sensation about whether or not that something weird like that could happen. Wonderful moment in a New Yorker interview with Michelle Pfeiffer, where Michelle Pfeiffer is informed that Grease 2 is big on TikTok.

And Michelle Pfeiffer is like, are you sure it's Grease 2? Are you sure it's not the original Grease? Like just doesn't want to hear it. I was very charmed by it. Best supporting actress. I think the one that you've suggested here is mine as well. Yeah. Dominique Fishback.

Yes. Now that would from Judas and the Black Messiah. That obviously would be nice to see. She feels like the number one potential victim of the late launch for Judas. I think if there had been three months and a campaign built around her, she might have been able to crack that roster. But this is a very

intense competition. I honestly have no feel for who the nominees are going to be. I think you could make the case that there are eight people ahead of her right now.

I mean, Olivia Colman, Yaiyang Yun, Amanda Seyfried, Glenn Close, Maria Bakalova, Jodie Foster, Ellen Burstyn, Helena Zengel. It's tough. Yeah.

A lot of people and a lot of Michelle Pfeiffer-esque lifetime. We're very proud of this person. And so we're going to stick them in awards. And then Helena Zengel, who is young, but is also very charming. Best supporting actor. I would like the Bill Murray thing to happen. That would be cool. Yeah.

I mean, this one, I'm so pleased with Daniel Kaluuya as pretty much a lock at this point that they can kind of do what they want because actually, Vermont's my favorite supporting actor performance of the year, though, whether it's supporting is supporting is quibble but i don't really mind oscar fraud category fraud as much as other people anyway he's gonna win so let's have fun with it

it would be great to see bull murray there he did such a great job on his golden globe zoom you know that's true doesn't somebody good almost always win in this category this is like this is one of the few categories where i'm like oh that guy oh that guy a lot of people win twice you know maher shaw ali has got two of these you know christoph waltz has got two of these yeah jk simmons yeah your boy brad pitt there's been some good winners in this category he only has one sad javier bardem remember him yeah he should have gotten a second one for skyfall though so george clooney yeah love him should i just keep saying names will that be helpful sure a bunch of a list of people who did not make our 35 over 35 list go keep going oh boy best original screenplay and best adapted

screenplay um usually these are the most creative categories I think the dearth of releases this year has limited some of the scope of these categories. So you picked one for each here. You picked Judas and the Black Messiah for original screenplay and Borat 2 for adapted screenplay. I don't feel very conversant in where this category is right now. So does it feel like the nominees are locked in for the five for each? Not totally because the WGA Awards, which are quite influential in this category, have like a lot of rules. And so many things that are eligible in this category, the Oscars are not eligible at the WGA Awards. And so that creates a little room.

And so Judas and the Black Messiah was nominated for a WGA award, an original, which I think gives it a bigger boost. And Borat was nominated an adapted screenplay, which I think gives it just like some voting awareness. But no, you know, neither of those were nominated for critics choice awards, which as we mentioned earlier,

seem to nominate everything. So it's, it seems like a fluid category. Yeah, I agree. Okay, interesting. Well, shall we take a break and then answer some questions about what the hell is going to happen in the next 72 hours? Let's do it. Okay, we're back.

Bobby Wagner, you're here to read us some questions from the listeners. You ready? Yes. Hello, guys. First question, Greg. After seeing viewership dips in every major live TV event, not fact-checked, over the past year, save presidential debates, has the people are starved for entertainment argument been debunked? Or is the boredom effect hiding even bigger audience drops ahead? So I know that you and I have some

big talking points about this and we did address this a little bit at the top of the episode. I want to say I've been reading a lot more lately and I don't know necessarily why that is, but I do think I have some viewing fatigue and i wonder if now obviously i'm a lunatic when it comes and i'll watch four movies in a night so i may have i may have pushed myself a little bit too far in the last 12 months but i do think that um i do think that at a certain point you can get too much and there's so much choice right now with all of the streamers that at a certain point, your brain just kind of gets scrambled and you're like, you know, what would be good is if I could just read this Charles

Portis novel that I bought 12 years ago and never read. And that is kind of where my heart has been going of late. And if I'm doing that, I feel like maybe that's a little bit representative. Where are you at in terms of consumption and the sense of people's desire for entertainment. Well, I was always doing what you just described. But no, I think we are both kind of in fully culture segmentation mode. Everybody is just like watching the things that they're interested in. And there are very few unifying things. And even the things that feel like really deafening in terms of everybody is like watching this.

Are they really? Like, no, guys, I haven't finished WandaVision, but I think that's happening. And then I, I too have been feeling that I just got to look at this screen again and we're all there. It's a really, really strange moment. It's a, hopefully like a hopeful moment and a turning point in terms of our country and availability to the vaccine and, and people's health and wellbeing and being able to put lives back together.

But it's uncertain still. And it's been a long time. I think it's like the year anniversary of the, of the official quote pandemic, whatever that means. I'm sure we'll be investigating what that means for years to come. But so some of it is like we're in a weird moment again. And I know we've been saying that for a year now, and that's really annoying. But I don't know if this particular

moment and like this particular Golden Globes are totally predictive. Let me ask you a quick follow up question to that. Yeah. What's the first thing you're going to do after you get the vax? I don't know. I can't think like that. I can't think like that because the rollouts and everything are really stressful and I can't be one of these people refreshing. I mean, it's important to refresh as many times as you need to be able to get an appointment for your loved ones and people who are like immunocompromised but i i don't know it's really stressful i'm gonna i'm gonna put on a bathing suit and some and some flip-flops and uh i'm gonna go to pizza hut i'm just gonna sit in pizza for like six hours i'll tell you what it's probably not gonna be be. That's that seems cool.

Good. Thanks for barely acknowledging what would be easily the craziest thing I've ever done in my entire life. You know one thing that like in terms of how we respond to content, I was told the other day that I just like have basically stopped laughing at all things, including all jokes. My husband was like, no shit. My husband was like, I'm doing great material here and you're just not even acknowledging me.

And that's tough. And I, he's great, but that's where I am. It just doesn't exist to me anymore. I'm completely numb. You just, this is a,

this is an oral medium and I need you to respond when I say something that is clearly not serious. Where is a pizza hut near you that you're going to? You're not doing that. No one out pizzas the hut though Amanda. Don't forget that. That's true. Okay.

This is not Spawn. Okay. What's next Bobby? I'm going to a Dodgers game guys. I know what you're doing. You don't even have to tell me. You've told me a hundred times. I have told you a hundred times. Every time we get on the Zoom I'm just like can't wait to get to a Dodgers game. You literally say that. Michael wants to know do you think the academy regrets moving back to oscars by two months some

of the films in contention like you guys mentioned like mank came out many many months ago at this point what do you think sean regrets it i think sean's really stressed out damn it yes i am this was a stupid idea we should have done this in february like we always do why did we move this what was the point of that i don't understand what the point of this was it was that it was there there was a nascent hope that we would have the vaccine and that we would be able to have a real show and now what we learned and we didn't mention this earlier is that it sounds like the show may happen in union station in downtown los angeles which i think is a creative solution to potentially keep people safe we're going to be in some sort of attendance.

And our guy, Steven Soderbergh, I'm sure is coming up with creative ideas to execute on this ceremony. But what are we waiting for? 45 days away? We are 45 days away from the show. This is so stupid. But looked at how unfun the Golden Globes were and how technologically and production wise,

how limited they were. 60 days makes a difference in terms of what they're able to do. It actually, it actually does. I hope so. I hope so. Okay. What's next?

Mark asks with the sea change towards streaming, is it finally time to keep the domination secret until the ceremony itself? With the boost that theatrical runs out of the picture, who says no? Think of the surprises. Okay, so this is a very interesting question. This speaks a little bit to some of the frustration or anxiety that I have around the deathless awards race and the sense that everything becomes locked in place over a period of time. And then there's no mystery, especially if you follow this closely in the lead up to the show.

That's not always the case. Obviously, we just came out of the Parasite surprise and that was thrilling. But for the most part, my relationship to a lot of the show at this point is. Renee Zellweger will win and we know in October that she will win. And so we have to wait four months for her to win. And this is not a solution that would work. I don't think you can keep the nomination secret because the participation of nominees

and the campaign is an essential part of the award show. But what you could do is you could have a long list heading into the show. And then you could, during the show, count down and say, we've now moved from 10 nominees for best actor to five to three to one. And that would get more famous people involved and would be more interesting. It would eventize the award show.

And you and I have come up with a billion solutions in the past about what they could do around best picture. But I think you could consider this for a lot of categories. It's essentially releasing the vote totals without actually releasing the vote totals, which some people fear would be too embarrassing for the nominees. And I think you and I are like, let's do it. Let's, you know. I got nothing to lose. Yeah, let's go. So I think that's smart.

I think that there is also possibly like a playoff aspect that you could do to it like a few weeks before in order to stoke up some drama. And when I say playoff, I mean, you can do many ceremonies online or whatever. I don't think anyone will watch them. But even just kind of like the long list and the short list that happens in some categories do it for every categories i i do think also that will just help people know what to watch and as the oscars become more and more a guide to like all the films you haven't seen and what is actually worth your time kind of narrowing the field and guiding people through the award ceremony the award season is a good thing i think yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. Okay, what's next? Garrett asks, what postponed 2020 release do you feel

would have been a front runner or in talks for best picture? I mean, there are a few, right? West Side Story, French Dispatch. I think maybe In the Heights would have been in the conversation in a big way. Those are my three that off the top of my head. Yeah, I think we've yet to see whether Dune will be just a big event movie

or if it will be something deeper than that. You know, if it will have a kind of like avatar level of interest, not necessarily from a box office perspective, but in terms of the quality of the film, because the filmmaker is is so celebrated um the the truth is is that it's probably a movie that we don't know about yet or that we haven't spent a lot of time thinking about because if you look at this collection of films that we just suggested are going to be in the running next week i mean i knew about mank um i that's really

it you knew about trialrial of the Chicago 7. Trial of the Chicago 7. Yeah, sure. But like I learned about Minari at Sundance. You know, I learned about Promising Young Woman

at Sundance. I was not even aware that these films were being made and I read the trades. So, you know, it's almost certainly

going to be something that is going to come out at the end of this year that is a little bit smaller than your tentpy, dune, West Side Story style thing. It's a good question, though. I mean, it's interesting to... We'll probably do a what-if version of this Oscars a few years from now. That would actually be a fun conversation to have to think about what could have been competing versus what actually competed.

Okay, what's next? Do you guys see that Avatar is being re-released in China to break the Avengers Endgame record again? What is this? With this movie platform, I just have to say that's stat padding bullshit. Amanda, have you seen Avatar? I have.

Should we re-watch Avatar for a pod? Would that be a fun conversation? No. No? No? I remember very little about it, but it's like their braids are how they have sex or something um yeah that's it you got it that's what that they put that that was actually on

the poster strangely enough they were braids and they have sex flashy bright lights on billboards on sunset boulevard is that wrong are the logistics of that wrong um i don't i don't believe you used any logistics in those series of statements uh incredible incredible episode of choppo trap house about avatar i i just i can't recommend that episode highly enough it's just definitely one of the funniest things i've heard next question comes from cashmere taco incredible doing a movie podcast what about best in show style could segment how you like uh drama comedy action sci-fi and horror but it would increase the overall nominees and if done like above it would highlight genres not currently awarded so they're suggesting basically like the akc dog show i guess best in show style but they do different breed categories and then all of the winners of the

breed categories compete against each other for the best in show best drama would compete against best comedy would compete against best action and so bobby how familiar are you with the politics of dog shows i'm genuinely asking because i i'm not at all familiar but i want to understand whether there are certain breeds that win best in show yeah more frequently than others and whether there's like a certain type of dog that's like the dog version of oscar bait yes the poodle okay typically is like mean animals that's like not okay with me the uppity they look ridiculous with the way that they cut them for the dog shows and like the casual viewer going to the dog show is usually mad because like it's not the cutest dog.

Okay. When are you guys launching Dog Pod? Is that something that you've been cooking? If you will green light that live on this show, I will hold you to that. I'm right here. I don't have that power, unfortunately. So here's a kind of an interesting question,

but also there are certain years where like there are five dramas that are better than any of the action movies. So the idea of cutting out a great drama you know the idea of cutting out minari because mank is the best drama so that it can compete against extraction doesn't really seem logical to me yeah it would be a nightmare right now because movies and even oscar bait movies are made according to like the standards and the current system. So if you're changing everything, then there would be five or 10 years of disaster until people who want to compete for Oscars are like, well, maybe we should make an actually good action movie and then we can, you know, get it into this category and get awareness for it.

That's another way to make money. That's predicated on two things. One, people still caring about the Oscars in 10 years, which will they? Besides Sean and myself and our band of followers? Like, no. Or maybe, but I don't know. And then I think- There are dozens of us.

I love it. I love all of you guys. And I hope you're having- That was an Arrested Development reference. Oh, okay. Like, as I said, I'm not here for that amanda just powered just blanked me blanked me this is outrageous

i'm sorry i just i didn't get it i don't know you know what i did laugh at did you watch did you watch um the clip of megan mccain doing whatever her weird uh harry and megan stuff and then whoopi Goldberg's response. I will say it is 15 seconds and it's the only thing that's made me laugh in 2021. Whoopi Goldberg is a national treasure. Anyway, the other issue with the best in show Oscar strategy is what I was trying to, you know, investigate with Bobby with the idea of even if you do this like an institution still rewards

like a certain type of film or a certain type of dog more than other type of film so if you consider the poodle to be like the Oscar Beatty drama then I guess you're getting more exposure for like other dog breeds I don't really know anything about dogs but at the end of the day it's probably still the the mean poodle who wins i almost got attacked by a poodle once so it's an it's a negative connotation for me no it's okay you can talk it through right here on the pot of this is save it for dog pod guys it was a poodle named merlin and it was just like not a kind dog guys we only have time for like two more questions i can't have you talking about dogs this much. This is outrageous.

What's next, Bob? Tim asks, best popular film was clearly a bad idea, but can you guys think of a variation on that concept that would get more big movies at the Oscars? Or should we just blame the voters for being allergic to most quote popular entertainment? Well, I don't really think that the second part of that is true necessarily if you look at the nominees from last year. I mean, last year, Joker and Ford versus Ferrari in 1917 and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, all those movies are recognized. Black Panther was recognized a

few years ago. So I think that that's a little bit overstated. I do think that there could be something interesting in essentially creating two more awards, one that is an under $25 million budget award and one that is an over $25 million budget award. And that wouldn't replace Best Picture. I think Best Picture would still be Best Picture. But you could say, let's do some recognition for films at a budget, especially as the industry becomes increasingly stratified. It's so clear now that at studios, there are basically two segments. There is, I can get this made for this amount of money. And in order to get a movie made for this amount of money,

I need like sign off from 11 people. And because of that, you can see that filmmakers are choosing directions. You can see Chloe Zhao in real time, making a decision to say, I have now made three films that are basically sub $10 million, and in some cases, sub $1 million. And I'm now going into the $150 million budget range. And that creates a different kind of art, frankly. And so it would

be interesting to watch the Academy try to parse what that means in an awards format. Is there something you would suggest, Amanda, to do this? No think that's a great idea i yours i i'm still resistant to best popular separately because and we might just have a philosophical difference with a lot of people but like i do believe that you can make a film that is both popular and artful and i and i think that it is better for the oscars and better for popular movies that I actually want to see if they are still contained within Best Picture. But I think you're right that they're just the amount of money you can spend produces a different type of film. And that would be a clever way to to incorporate some of those big budget films. Let's do two more, Bob.

Okay. Will wants to know, question for Amanda and Amanda only. There has to be five musical performances, but they can be in any movie song, proper, not just tacked onto the credits from history, performed by any contemporary act. What songs and what acts?

Will, thank you. I feel really seen. I'm really excited about this. Full disclosure, I had a margarita last night and just like went to town and made a full list. So here's what I got for you. I have five. I'm open to feedback, but not really. Okay. Number one. Also, I just want to say I really did for the most part try to take into account the like songs within the movie as opposed to credit songs. So for example, Lose Yourself, not eligible here, even though... Did you read the Barack Obama memoir?

No, I did not. You read the Barack Obama memoir? Yeah, of course. But actually, I read 400 pages of it. I'm going to be honest, it's quite long. I'll get to... And it's only part one. But there's a bit about how he just listened to Lose Yourself before going on in the campaign all the time and that's really great okay here we go i admire barack obama greatly but he is a very basic he is that is a very basic big before my middle school basketball game energy okay well congratulations to you guys for being above one of you know the president i'm not making fun of him i'm I'm saying I'm relating. Okay. Okay, here we go. Number one, Moon River,

which debuted in Breakfast at Tiffany's, performed by Frank Ocean, who has a really lovely cover of Moon River. And I think we should get Frank Ocean at the Oscars. Wow, love that one. Yeah, thank you. Number two, Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas, debuted in Meet Me in St. Louis by Judy Garland. There are like 18 Judy Garland songs

that you could sing and pick here. But I went with this one because it always makes me cry. And I think most people don't know that it actually originated like in the context of a movie. And I would have Sturtle Simpson sing that one. Wow. Thank you. You're flexing right now.

Yeah, thank you so much. I told you. I had just the right amount of tequila. I hadn't had tequila in like a year. And I was just like having the time of my life. Not too much, not too little, just right. Okay, number three. You know, this isn't a Manda list.

So I would just have Adele come back and perform Skyfall again. Okay. Because I'm not willing to give up the chance to have Adele sing Skyfall and we would just we'd have a huge orchestra the orchestra is just like surrounding the entire auditorium it's as loud as you can get it because you want some full volume right okay quick question I think the words to Skyfall this is this I think I'm right about this. The words to Skyfall, the lyrics in full are just Skyfall, Skyfall like a hundred times. No, I think it's like let the sky fall, let it crumble. I think it's let it crumble.

I meant to Google that, but I forgot to. That's rough. It's Adele. Are you kidding? It's okay. As loud as it can be. Why wouldn't we do that again? Why wouldn't we do that every year?

Okay, keep going. What's number four? Number four, Mrs. Robinson. So you'd start... This is crazy. This is where I got really crazy. So you'd start with Simon and Garfunkel themselves. But then...

Where are they at? Are they getting along these days? What's the deal? I mean, they were never getting along. They don't like each other. But part of the fun would be like Paul Simon being like really mad. And you just just keep a camera but you have to keep a camera now paul simon through all of this because halfway through to bring the energy up here i'm bringing out the lemonheads to do their cover of mrs robinson and then paul simon's really mad while they're also doing it so i think

that would be fun for everybody and a great song and then also... Also, the Lemonheads cover, I believe, was used in the film Wayne's World. Oh, right. Great stuff. Yeah. All right. Number five. And this is the finale. And this is as full a production as you can do.

As many people, as much orchestration, possibly multiple locations. I'm really open to it. People should be walking down the aisles. It's going to be performed by beyonce because who else but we will you're mad with power right now right but we will also allow the original artist carly simon on the stage to perform let the river run yes yes let's do it can you imagine i would lose my mind and then I would die because I would be the only person who cares but I'd be so happy.

You know, you started with such a big tent proposal and it just got shrunk it down and down until you got to Carly Simon. I think that that is a great lineup that I just made. Okay. Congrats on Amanda Palooza. Thank you. Will, thank you for the full court alley-oop for Amanda right there. Thanks so much, Will.

We only have time for one more, so I will ask a question from Scott. Who would be your dream host? And a follow-up question, why would it be Chris Ryan doing an Al Pacino impression? Dream host this year or dream host ever? I think ever. Bill Murray?

That would be good. I don't know. Just jumped off. I mean, we always come back to The Rock. They should just have The Rock host the Oscars. Yeah, I mean, he's not my dream host. That just seems like a good solution to getting people interested in the show. Yeah.

And who has that very specific talent and charisma and can just work the room and could even make you care about a Zoom ceremony. So a lot of times when people who I felt like would excel at this job, I've been disappointed by some of the work they've done. And it's not really their fault. It's because the Academy Awards, by nature, are a little bit stuffy. I, like many people my age, was obsessed with Chris Rock in the 1990s. Chris Rock eventually did get a chance to host the Oscars.

It was pretty good. It wasn't bad. It's hard to be great. Steve Martin has hosted the Oscars many times, but he did not host the Oscars in 1973 when he was at the height of his powers. That's the kind of thing I would want to see. Somebody who was kind of pushing the limits of what entertainment was and what the audience's relationship was to things like irony and slapstick. I'd love to see somebody who is literally at the height of their powers and young step into a space like that and do it. Too frequently, you have to wait until you're 53 until you're asked to do something like this. Who is that right now? Who's the funniest person

in America? I haven't laughed at anything this year, so I don't know. Oh my God. Okay. You, Sean, I think that you should take your wonderful jokes from this episode on the road. Just don't insult me. It's right there in front of you. It's Chris Ryan. Yeah. I think Chris would actually do a great job. I do too. I think Chris could host anything, and frankly, he will host anything on the R podcast network but um I how would he engage with the losers you know Chris Chris likes a winner oh my god I'm just imagining every time you come back from an award so like the two seconds of Chris has to be like really moving before you know going on to whatever the next award is

just like the Chris ads before he turns the car he'll never listen to this so it's really okay um listen nothing would be better to me personally than than watching that and then making a super cut of it also the my other dream host would be thanos uh speaking of thanos let's now go to my conversation with Joe and Anthony Russo. Well, I'm delighted to be joined by two of the biggest filmmakers in the world, Anthony and Joe Russo. Thanks for doing the show today. How are you guys doing today? Good, Sean.

How are you? Great. Thank you. Hanging in there. Guys, let's jump right into the Cherry journey. A friend of mine reminded me that at the same time that Tom Holland's sort of joining with the MCU was announced, it was also right around the time that Cherry was kind of hitting his radar and your radars. I was wondering if you guys could talk to me about what it's like to identify a project like this when you're in the middle of something, the big undertaking that you had before Cherry with,

with the Avengers films. Yeah. I mean, there was certainly a confluence between Holland coming into our lives and the book, you know, Holland, I think, you know, we had an audition with them in this very, very, somewhat famous now audition process on Captain America Civil War. Really unique situation because it's the first time in history, I think, that two studios were going to share a massive piece of IP. So there's a lot of negotiating that went on around that casting uh and you know who you know who was really going

to take the lead on it was going to be anthony and kevin was going to be sony and you know anthony are from cleveland we're you know we give you bowls in a china shop so we uh we took that we took the bull by the horns and ran in there we're like all right we're casting this and uh you know we're going to tell you who we like and you know if you don't like, all right, we're casting this. And, you know, we're going to tell you who we like. And, you know, if you don't like them, then we won't put the character in the movie. We don't care. So we found Holland that way came in, he gave this incredible audition. It was a fight with Sony, crazy enough. We won the fight. And, you know, Tom exploded in the movie. Concurrently, a book agent who's a buddy of ours said,

you got to read this book, Cherry. It's by an author from Cleveland. He captures the voice of the opioid crisis in a way that I haven't seen before. Some really crazy stuff in the book. I think you're going to love it. And we read it and Nico Walker, the author, was in prison. He was incarcerated at the time. And we actually had to negotiate with him over a secure line that he would call us from prison to negotiate the rights to the book. So it was a crazy process on both sides. Were you guys scouting for a crime movie? What was it about this book that drew you into it? No, I mean, we didn't have any designs whatsoever. This book actually came into our lives while we were in post on Endgame. So we were just maybe having the vaguest thoughts at that point about what we would do afterwards. And we didn't really have clear thoughts.

We were still immersed in finishing Endgame. And it was a really daunting task to think about because at that point, we had been seven straight years making four consecutive Marvel movies. So that's a long run. We always joke that for years, we worked in television where the goal was to have longevity with your TV shows. And we never, ever had a show that lasted that long.

But when we did features, we had a run that lasted seven years in serialized storytelling. So, yeah, I imagine it could have taken us a very long time to think about what we wanted to do next. It was simply the fact that we read this book. This book just spoke to us very powerfully. And it didn't check any boxes for us. It wasn't part of a plan. It was simply something we had an emotional response to for a number of reasons,

one of which is the opioid crisis, which is part of what the story is about, is something that has touched our lives personally. We have friends and family who have struggled with addiction to opioids and even died from opioid addiction. So that was a powerful trigger for us. Number two, we knew that the opioid crisis was ongoing and was growing and growing. In fact, this past year, 2020 saw the highest number of opioid deaths ever. So it's, you know, it's far from being under control, even though we're, we're pretty solidly aware of it, it's still getting worse. So that also felt like another reason why we should make this movie right now. So maybe this book,

maybe this story can contribute to the process of us moving through this epidemic. And I think that was, that was it. You know, then we started, once we started thinking about Tom and the lead character in the lead role, that's when the movie really started to click for us.

I wanted to ask you guys about the complications of adaptation. You know, for years you had been entrusted with these characters that people have this huge relationship to, and there's all this lore. And then with Nico's book, you know, it's functionally auto-fiction, right? And it's so much of it is him and his experience. So, you know, how much fealty do you have to what Nico is saying in the book and what he's saying even to both of you versus how do you make a good movie? I know that there's always kind of changes that you have to make in some respects. There's some modifications.

Was this challenging to adapt? I mean, the mediums are incredibly different, right? you know, a very dense, layered story that can be episodic, sprawling, you know, nonlinear in its structure. To encapsulate, you know, the narrative that's in a book into a two-hour movie is a significant shift away from what the book represents. Usually what you're looking for is the essence of what the book was trying to say. And I think that was important in our translation. I think you could argue that that book is about a lot of things. It's very impressionistic, very stream of consciousness. But for us, what we found the most profound was it was a modern, tragic love story,

this dysfunctional love story. And there were choices made by the lead character that he did not have the life experience to make properly. And it leads to his undoing. He loses 15 years of his life because of these choices that he makes. That struck the deepest chord in us and felt like the people that we knew who had suffered at the hands of the epidemic um they made these choices that they they weren't prepared to um you know handle the consequences uh so yes it's a it's a complex process adapting a book this one in particular but um you you know you didn't have to turn it into your own thing in order for it to be a successful rendition of a film narrative.

You've also got, I mean, it's a lot of different kinds of films in a way, and it's chapterized the way that the movie is built, and you've got a romance and an addiction story, and it's a heist movie and a war movie, and you know it it kind of captures all of these different brands of movie how did you think about like why did why the decision to kind of chapterize in the way that you did the couple of reasons you know one of which is we wanted it's a very subjective story with very subjective storytelling. And we wanted you to go on a journey in this incredible life cycle where these very distinct experiences happen for the lead character. They're all very different.

I mean, he's a young college kid falling in love. Then he goes through the absurdism of military training. Then the horrors of war and the psychological horror of losing his mind and falling apart when he comes home into the emotional detachment that is drug addiction. of war and the psychological horror of losing his mind and falling apart when he comes home, into the emotional detachment that is drug addiction, and then the redemption that is incarceration. These are dramatic life movements that all happen in a very short period of time for this character. We wanted you to really feel each one in a poetic and impressionistic way.

So we use different lenses, different camera techniques, different performance style, different colors, different music. Everything works together in each section to create the most heightened experience of that. The second reason is this is a story for Gen Z. That's what we loved about the book. Gen Z is on the front lines of this crisis as well because they're the ones most exposed to it and they're the ones that can suffer the most at the hands of it and gen z has a different visual facility than any generation before them if you think about growing up like we're processing instagram and tiktok in a very different way than they are because they're growing up on it.

Their brains are developing because of it. TikTok is like the most, you know, it's this incredible volume of segregated information, you know, coming at you in 30-second chunks. You're looking at sports, and you're looking at a restaurant you want to go to. Then you're looking at celebrity gossip. Then you're looking at, you know, like it's massive amounts of information rolling at you. And so they process information very differently. And I've got, you know, kids who are all that age range, and I watch how they consume information. So we specifically

targeted this movie towards a new visual language that we thought would have a broad appeal to that generation. Did you cross-check that with your kids, you guys? This is a pretty intense movie for teenagers. I mean, we didn't, but we feel like it's important for them to see. And this is a... Look, having kids and having them grow up in Los Angeles, Oxy is a party drug here. It's like you put that in your mouth and you're toast. It is scientifically engineered to make you addicted to it to print money for pharmaceutical companies. It costs an incredible amount of money and years of your life to get off of it.

If you are lucky enough to get off of it, otherwise you're going to die. And so sometimes tough conversations need to be had. Was there a purposeful decision to make something that doesn't necessarily have the same antic charm that I think a lot of the work that you guys have done over the years is known for? Did you say, we don't want to do anything that's too winking or almost too clever in a way because we're interested in trying a different mode? I don't think that was a conscious choice on our part, but we do have a habit throughout our careers of zigzagging. We like a lot of different things. We like comedy, drama, we like TV, film, we like big movies, small movies, et cetera. So we shoot commercials. We sort of love all the things you can do with cinema. And I think we just have this

innate process where we like to shift gears on ourselves, to use different muscles, create different creative possibilities for ourselves. So I don't think it was, we don't consciously do that, but I think what we end up desiring or responding to or running at may often be sort of radically different from what we did before. What's your favorite part of filmmaking at this stage of your careers? That's a great question. That's interesting. I think the writing process is the formative process, and we've codified that process. And it really allows for collaboration. And I think it's when we get the most ideas out of our team and the other people that we're working with.

I mean, we've been collaborating for 25 years, so we value it. It's not all filmmakers value collaboration. Some people are used to the isolation of being a single director and don't want to be challenged by other ideas and have a very specific vision. The way we work is we invite ideas. We have this motto, the best idea wins. We craft the clay as we go. We try to keep it very organic and iterative.

Most of that iteration happens when you're writing. You can do some of it while you're directing, but the walls close in a little bit. Money's being spent, time's ticking. So there's a real pressure cooker while you're shooting, and then it opens back up in editorial where you can sit in an ending room and remake the film if you want to. Anthony, what about for you? Is writing also your favorite part? You know, I might say that it is as well, simply because it is the beginning of the dreaming process in terms of what's possible and what a story can be.

And I think we stay in that process, you know, starting there throughout the entire process. But I will say like the interesting corollary to that is like when you're in the very late stages of editing, there's something fascinating about having to let go of that, you know, having like getting to the point where you recognize that there's no,

you can no longer dream up new things for the movie. You have to sort of accept the fact that the movie has now become fixed and the job is simply about finishing finishing it off and closing closing the ideas that you've been you know sort of innovating throughout the process um and that's very you know that's a very difficult part of the process um but yeah i think the dreaming it up is always the most fun do you is is he in other words letting go is hard letting go of the it's hard to let the most fun. In other words, letting go is hard? Letting go of the project?

It's hard to let go. Yeah, it's very hard. It's hard because, again, I think that when you do love part of what's special about our collaboration with one another is we're constantly pitching one another new ideas that can better our storytelling and sort of surprise ourselves more and i think yeah there there gets to a point where the process that's just there's no room in the process any longer for that and that's kind of that's difficult i'm always fascinated to talk to directing duos and especially brothers but just duos in general i'm so interested in the kind of delineation of responsibilities and what your personas are on set you know what how are you

guys together and do you even have an awareness of how you are together when you're making a movie on set we're pretty we don't have a high level of self-awareness about it um but i also i also think it's interesting because i you know i team probably has unique dynamics to every other directing team in the same way that any individual director is different than any other individual director. It's all kind of a function of personality and process. I mean, for Joe and I, we have a very relaxed process with one another that's sort of built on so many years of not just our relationship but also our working relationship. So I think that's really sort of characterizes it. We like to keep things loose. We like collaboration, not only our own collaboration, but we like to send the message out to everybody we're working with to that we want them

to feel free and open and and to participate in the collaboration as like with as much vigor as they they want to you know so we we try to create a very collaborative environment on set where you can feel free to say anything and um and, and flow with it, you know? So I think, I think that's kind of our primary energy that we bring to it, but we don't, I mean, look at that's complimented by, you know, us very thoroughly having, having a very specific plan and just fluctuating between the plan and sort of new possibilities that can come up. But other than that, I don't know.

We both, you know, like Joe was mentioning earlier, we don't really divide duties. We both kind of like everything. So we just sort of sort it out as we go. How do you guys go scouting for projects and decide what you want to direct versus what you want to produce? I'm fascinated by Extraction and the experience of that movie and why the choice to do something

like Cherry, but not Extraction. And since you guys, you have a significant amount of clout now, how does that decision making happen? Very personal. I mean, we have a very close family and we grew up telling each other stories to entertain each other at the dinner table. And I think that's really where our passion for storytelling came from. And so it was really, you know,

the satisfaction is to a very small circle of people. It's not like we're, you know, we don't get out of bed to try to please the world. We don't get out of bed for any other reason that like, what are we excited to do today? What are Ant and I jointly excited about? And there have been projects that have come across that I like more than he does or you know we just don't do those

you know so it has to be something that he and I both love we grew up talking about films that was part of how we fell in love with movies is that we would watch things and discuss them quote them you know talk about them with friends, watch them over and over again. Just a group of cinephiles growing up in the suburbs in Cleveland. And so that really was formative of our process. We value the working environment who we're going to work with as much as we value the material. So if the material is an A+, and the environment is an A+,

then it's not a go for us, right? Unfortunately, as you build out your career, you can control the environment more and more. So that becomes less of an issue for us. But it's just, what do we move by? What excites us? Why are we like that? Let's go do that.

I mean, Soderbergh was our mentor. You go back and look at his career. There's no through line. The only through line is personal satisfaction and what excited Stephen in the moment. We're very similar to him in that way. And I think that's why he gravitated towards us. We just have a penchant for experimentation and that's our motivating factor. I've talked to Stephen before about going back and looking at his own work and he obviously has this almost like archivist relationship to what he's done in the past.

Do you guys look back at what you've done in the past? Are there things you wish you could have done differently through the film and TV over the years? We don't really look back as much. I don't think we're very much in sort of into the moment and thinking about what the new frontiers are for ourselves. I think we keep have a little bit more of a focus on that. Well, I mean, while we certainly appreciate the road that we've traveled, I mean, in, in the way that Joe was describing, like a lot of what was special about making things that whether it be film or television lot of what was special about making things that, whether it be film or television in the past was the specific experience that we had with our collaborators

on those projects and what that experience of collaboration with those people gave us, not just for that particular film or TV show, but gave us in terms of like a tool in our toolbox as, as filmmakers and creative artists, you know, in terms of what, what do we carry forward? What did we learn from people? What learned from experiences and how do we continue to use that? How does it, how does that stay alive in our craft and our process as we move forward? I would say that's something that's how I, how I personally feel the past most is in that part

of the process as opposed to the finished film. I feel like a lot of people would look at Cherry and the story and Joe, even some of the sort of expansiveness of the story that you were talking about and see a TV show and see or a limited series. And you guys have made a film. Obviously, the film was made to appear in theaters it's you know not going to be in as many theaters as you would want it to be because of what's happening in the world right now but do you feel your your chemistry your brain chemistry in terms of the way you're going to tell stories changing at all you know you have this huge history

with television do you think you'll do more television because of what's happening right now i mean i think that we're the only thing, the only through line I think you could point out in our career is the penchant for experimentation. I mean, you look at Arrested Development. The time when we shot that, it was the first show on television, on primetime television to be shot with digital cameras. And we did that because the show was so difficult to pull off. We had to move so quickly that we needed more light sensitivity and to use less light and, you know, not spend that time lighting so that we could shoot comedy. And we went through like historic record amounts of location changes in a day.

And, you know, that's what created the density of the show so that was this experimentation behind it you look at community we're just you know we're doing a genre exploration every week so it's really just like a sitcom that was an excuse for genre exploration so there's the experimentation there and then marvel universe was you know this giant mosaic of of franchises that had been interwoven in a way that no one had ever done before and we were you know compelled to follow that one to the end because we we wanted to we wanted to be the drivers behind the you know this this this massive pop culture experiment um And then Cherry, you know, is really just, again, you know, us experimenting with narrative.

So it doesn't matter really where it's, you know, like you mentioned that Cherry is a sort of modular, you know, highly stylized approach to storytelling. Very dense, you know, layered in of its its visual presentation and its story uh and lots of easter eggs throughout you know to filmmakers nods to other films and you know even some nod to our marvel work in there you know if you look closely you'll find a bunch of easter eggs so um the uh um so for us i don't't know that it matters which medium. It just matters where is storytelling going?

How is it evolving? How are our brains evolving? Clearly, look at the country. Clearly, we've been influenced by technology over the last decade and a half in staggering ways, in ways that we probably don't understand yet. And social media is having an impact. You can see it from QAnon to, you know, the storming of the Capitol that, you know, it can infiltrate the psychology of people

on profound levels. And I think that will alter the way that we receive stories or want to receive stories. And I'm even sure that a two-hour, two-dimensional linear narrative is the future of storytelling. I think when Gen Z grows up, they're going to come up with something totally different that's more experiential. And I'm excited for what that is. I think Anthony and I are most interested when we are trying to bridge the gap between what that is and where we are now. And Cherry is a step in the direction of us. It's us getting in the laboratory with a bunch of beakers and chemicals

and mixing shit together, hoping we don't blow ourselves up. Guys, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing that they've seen? You're both cinephiles. What have you seen that you've dug lately? I thought White Tiger was fantastic. I really loved it. I don't know if you've seen it yet on Netflix, but... I have.

What did you like about it? I mean, I just thought thematically it was profound. This is a... The one thing I'm... One other thing that Antony i like to champion is international storytelling we are very anglo-centric we're very hollywood-centric we've dominated pop culture for a long time and you know it you know the the common language the language that we all share throughout the world now as we're joined by the internet

is made most interesting when other voices come into it and and have space to be part of it uh and um you know when you can take a deep dive into a culture like you can in white tiger that uh with a movie that that that that is that affecting um i think you know we need more of that anthony anything recently for you that you've loved? The only thing that's popping into my head is because this experience was just a few nights ago. My daughter is very into fantasy and sci-fi, and we watched WandaVision together and had a blast. She really loved it. And I had a great fun watching, you know, we adore Paul Bettany and

Elizabeth Olsen. Watching those two put in those sort of mannered period TV character performances was great fun. Must be a trip from the outside looking in on something like that, given all you guys have done. Joe Anthony, thanks so much for doing the show. I really appreciate it all you guys have done uh joe anthony thanks so much for doing the show i really appreciate it you guys thank you i'm really appreciate it okay thank you to joe and anthony russo thank you to bobby wagner tune in bright and early monday morning because what's happening amanda the oscar. They're going to be announced. We're going to be here podcasting about them. We're going to be talking about snubs, surprises and whatever other nonsense comes along our way. Please tune in

then. See you then.