The Big Picture - The 10 Best Movies at Sundance, and the Astonishing ‘Nickel Boys’

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

Sean and Amanda discuss the evolving story of Karla Sofía Gascón’s old tweets (1:00) and what it might portend for the ‘Emilia Pérez’ Oscar hopes. Then, they discuss an underwhelming Sundance 2025 (12:00) before diving deep into one of the best movies of 2024, ‘Nickel Boys’ (44:00), and discussing the excellent Michael Keaton performance at the center of ‘Goodrich’ (1:01:00). Finally, Sean is joined by director Tim Fehlbaum to discuss ‘September 5,’ how he became interested in the story that it depicts, casting the film, and the ascendant run it’s been on this awards season (1:15:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Tim Fehlbaum Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Look, it's not that confusing. I'm Rob Harvilla, host of the podcast 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, except we did 120 songs. And now we're back with the 2000s. I refuse to say aughts, 2000 and 2009. The Strokes, Rihanna, J-Lo, Kanye, sure. And now this show is called 60 Songs

That Explain the 90s, colon the 2000s. Wow, that's too long a title for me to say anything else right now. Just trust me. That's 60 songs that explain the nineties, colon the two thousands, preferably on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Amazon prime. You know, Amazon prime is not just a shipping subscription, right?

Amazon prime isn't just one thing, but a collection of excellent services. Amazon Prime offers a range of services, including Prime Video, Amazon Music, and Prime Fast Free Shipping. They also have great shows, great movies. Here's my favorite Amazon Prime thing. Ready? So we do the rewatchables, right? And I always like to know who the actor is. They have this really cool thing when you watch a movie called X-Ray. You can click on it as you're watching the movie and the cast will pop up.

And you can see who all the actors are. And it sounds dumb, but when you host a movie podcast, it's like the greatest thing ever. Anytime I rent or buy a movie, I buy it on Amazon Prime. That's true. I swear. On Prime, whatever you're into, or just getting into Prime service

can help you get closer to it. Or discover something else to get into. Whatever you're into, it's on Prime. Visit amazon.ca slash prime to get more out of whatever you're into. Like so worried about my sister. We're into. I'm doing these days is who shit their pants killer message you yesterday. This is so dangerous I got to get out of this based on a true story new season Mondays at 9 Eastern and Pacific only on w stream on stack TV I'm Sean Fennesee. I'm Amanda Dobbins, and this is the big picture a conversation Joe about Sundance and many other movies later in this episode

I'll be joined by Tim fell down the co-writer and director of the Oscar Nominated September 5 a docudrama about the hostage crisis at the Munich Olympics Bell bombs film is a taught and well-crafted procedural about the ABC sports producers thrust into covering the event on live television Fellbaum shared how and why he made this movie, which is now available on VOD for those of you who missed it at home. So check out the movie. Listen to the interview. But first, Amanda, we have a lot to talk about today.

We have Sundance, your trip to and my viewings of the films at Sundance. We have Nickel Boys. We'll spend some time breaking down one of the best picture nominees and one of the best movies of the year. 2024, that is. We'll talk about Goodrich, which comes to us from Hallie Meyer Shire. Daughter of?

Daughter of Nancy Myers and Charles Shire, the late great Charles Shire. And what else are we gonna do? You wanna talk about September 5 and all? Anything to say about it? I mean, sure, yeah, I liked it, yeah. We can dig into it for a few minutes. Couple things to get off our chest first.

Programming reminder. For those of you not on social media, we share the schedule for the upcoming episodes this month. One of the things we'll be doing this month is a mailbag. We've done many mailbags over the years. They're often fun. We often source questions for the mailbags from x.com, formerly known as twitter.com.

We're not doing that anymore. No more Twitter questions. What we're going to do is primarily use an email address. Bob, what is the email address that people should use? The email address is bigpickmailbag at gmail.com. Bigpickmailbag at gmail.com. BigPicMailbag at gmail.com. I'm going to say it one more time because people complain about us saying titles too fast. Say it slow. You want to spell it out?

Start again. BigPicMailbag at gmail.com. Okay, so my hope here is that this will elicit even better questions than we've had in the past. We do get great questions, but on Twitter, there's a kind of flip quality. I want the sickos, the psychos to come out. Share your, don't share your deep thoughts. Bob doesn't want to read your deep thoughts, but a more-

I do. So a couple notes. I asked for the password and it has not been shared with me to big, big mailbag at gmail.com. I'll give you the password, that's fine. Okay, great. So you never know when I'll be logging on and reading and maybe even chaotically responding. Maybe that's, you know, one of the things we can offer here.

Can we just, please send us your questions. You're also, we're going to solicit comments on Instagram and TikTok. I won't be looking at the comments on TikTok because I don't have TikTok. Same. But, and again, because we're 40 years old, or so that, but that's okay. It's, we're doing our best. So you can leave your comments there, you can email us. Can you let the people know why the programming changed?

Can we pull, you know, the curtain back a little? Of course, yeah, I'd be happy to. And I, because I want some accountability, and also maybe we can help you in real time. Well, last month in January, we were going to do the Paul Newman Hall of Fame. And then our schedule changed in part because of the fires, and we had to move some episodes around.

And so we moved that episode out of January. I had intended to do it in February, but then I was confronted with 25 new Sundance films to watch this past weekend, and I just have not had time to do what I feel is the appropriate amount of research for the Paul Newman Hall of Fame. For me?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let me read the text message that I received at 9.22 p.m. on a Friday night. Did you not remember authorizing you to communicate this? We're going front street with text messages now. Damn, I didn't know this was fair. I'm gonna clock this for all future text messages from you, just so you know.

That's great. Everything that I put out into the world is, you know, made for archiving. I'm proud of my content. Okay. Friday, 922 p.m. I made the mistake of acquiring all the pre-Hustler, that's the Paul Newman film, movies he made, and there's a lot of them and I don't know when I'll watch them.

This is definitively a me problem. So what we have here is just the, the, the Blu-ray volume is overtaking you. Well, it w it wouldn't have mattered. I would have tried to watch all these movies whether I had them on Blu-ray. I'm going to try to watch a lot of them too. But there's, I mean, he, Newman, who's the greatest, made like 15 movies before he really broke out as a megastar in Hollywood. Or at least like figured out what his persona was.

And so I thought it would be helpful, because a lot of them I haven't seen, to figure out like how he misstepped or what kind of an actor he tried to be. Totally. Maybe I don't have to watch all of them, but I would love to get into like at least five or six. I mean, and how much of that was his decision making

and how much of that was him in the 50s studio system is also, you know? I think the latter is a huge part of it. Talk about it at length on the episode. But, you know, I want to in good faith cover those movies. So do I. I just, you know, I was just imagining you like drowning in your stacks of DVDs on Friday night. My Newman stack is large. It's probably going to end up being the largest stack that I've ever done.

Yeah. And not everything is even available. Anyway, we'll talk about that. So we're not doing Newman this month. Hopefully we'll do it in April. I think March is a little tricky for a variety of reasons. The Oscars, I'm traveling, Bong Joon-ho. There's a couple of things going on that are getting in the way.

25 for 25. 25 for 25, we're starting in March. So there's's a couple things going on that are getting in the way. 25 for 25. 25 for 25, we're starting in March. So there's a lot of stuff going on there. But hopefully in April we'll get into Newman. We are still going to do Robert Altman at 100 this year. I think we'll do it in the fall to give a little bit of distance. Those will be the two big projects in theory this year. We'll do some book clubs.

We got, there's plenty of stuff coming, but I just don't have time to do Paul Newman in part because I was doing the Sundance thing. But before we get to Sundance, you know, the Carla Sofia Gascon social media drama had like just started when we recorded Last Thursday with Joanna. And we knew that it wasn't good. And we knew that there was some really hateful and weird stuff in her previous tweets. Right, but we did not read through all of it.

I don't think all of them had been fully unearthed by the time we even recorded. Right, right, right, yes. I mean, that's true. Though, again, I do, to some extent, I mean, like everything that has then been circulated is just, like, vile and thoughtless and baffling. And no thank you. Yeah. Real moron mode for her frequently on social media.

But I just, once again, we're saying unearthed. As if someone was, like, hacking for hours on end. These were just publicly available, you know? And this is a movie that was acquired by Netflix in May after Cannes. Yes. And Netflix has been running this campaign now for, let's just count, May, June, July, August, September,

October, November, December, January. We're in February now, we made it in nine months. I had a baby in that time and no one could just like, oh, think to hit it, no one checked? I have some questions. I don't know what to tell you. It's obviously a massive fumble. When we recorded on Thursday, we thought it would affect the race.

We weren't sure how much it would affect the race because it was happening in real time. Over the weekend, one, Gascon, I think, made it significantly worse. Yes. She went on 60 Minutes and gave an interview in which she seemed defensive. She's posting again on social media about this.

A lot of very long... And here's another thing is that I am not a Spanish speaker, you know. And so all of this is like being translated. And so we aren't the authorities on what's being said, but none of it is good. Most of it is very bad. And she's seemingly not helping herself. Well, it feels like an interesting controversy as a follow-up to the Brutalist AI controversy,

where we're sort of like, this is a bad movie for this sort of thing to be happening to. This is obviously a bad controversy for a movie like Amelia Perez, which I think had been vaunted as this progressive ideal of acceptance and multi-generational, multicultural, like thinking about a world beyond our own world and the way that other people experience this world.

You know, those themes were kind of like baked into the campaign as well as the movie. And so now it feels like they have been really upended, maybe completely rejected. And okay, I'll just ask you directly, do you feel like this movie's entire campaign, best picture, best supporting actress for Zoe Saldana, all of these things are imperiled

by the comments and the controversy. So, Zoe Saldana did win an award this weekend, London Critics Circle, is that? Which I think was predetermined sometime ago. Which was predetermined, but in her acceptance speech, she did say, I wasn't expecting this, especially right now. I... That's me every time you read one of my texts on Mike.

So I just want to say, and also, I think she gave a quote that was like, it just, it makes me so sad because I don't support it, which is just like a perfectly ambiguous, um, I think she'll be okay. I think that she is... I have been plotting... She is a star and in like, in her own amazing bubble and is both like really aware and also just kind of cutting her own ties. And people like her so much that I think it's okay.

I think it's sort of predetermined. I think so, but I'm not 100% sure. Who else is in the running? I don't know if there is a strong enough competitor. It's tricky because on the one hand, Zoe Saldana is very Hollywood. It has worked with everyone and has been hugely successful. And one of the reasons why she's being celebrated is, you know, she took a chance on this movie. She works mostly on studio movies.

This was an independent movie. It wasn't a Netflix movie when she signed on. You know, not in English. All the things that she did. Obviously learned, you know, singing, dancing, all the things that she accomplishes in the movie. No, no, no. She didn't learn to sing and dance. Trust me, she has known for many times. Yeah, for many years, please. She learned the choreography and the songs

and all those other things. But she's really great in the movie. I keep saying that over and over again. People are like, what do you think of Millie Press? I'm like, well, I still really liked what Zoe Saldana did. I think the movie is really undercooked and overthought in a lot of ways. But I do think sometimes when something like this happens, people really back away from the project in general.

I think after, if we did the power rankings today, instead of, you know, after like the first roundup on Thursday, we would... We would push it lower. No, or we would spend way less time deliberating. It would be brutalist at one. And maybe it would be below Enora. Because if someone is voting for this as a repudiation

of, like, the world at large, or as, like, a statement of their values, then a scandal like this probably also affects their understanding of what this movie represents. Agreed. Yeah. We'll see. There's still roughly two weeks of voting.

I think February 18th is the cutoff. So we've still got plenty of time here to talk about these issues. Who else will get entrenched in a campaign destroying scandal? We shall see. You know, can anyone come for a complete unknown at this point? It's possible. I wouldn't rule it out. I mean, I hope that we don't get, like, the leaks of the early vocal recordings, but you see at this point that,

like, anything can happen. Okay. I hope we don't learn that AI modified Timmy's voice. I hope we don't either, but, you know. Sundance 2025. Yes. Some broad strokes before we talk about our experiences. From afar, I wasn't there, you were there for a brief period of time.

Seemed like it was a challenging year at the festival. A lot of the energy coming out of the festival was a little miserable-ist. To put an adjective on it. You know, modestly received slate, sounded like slightly slimmer attendance. The future of the festival's location is in doubt because in theory, next year will be the last year in Park City, unless they decide to stay in Park City because there's been some concerns about the real estate opportunities. Genuine anxiety about the future of independent cinema, both in America and abroad, which is interesting because of how many independent films are

nominated at the Academy Awards this year and how vital they seem, at least to that race, obviously coming off of strikes that have affected studio movies. I was gonna say, I know that we keep saying that and about like everything. Anytime it's a disappointing weekend at the box office, or anytime we're like, well, not the strongest Oscar year, or yada yada, we're like, well, it was because of the strikes.

But I do think that this moment in time right now, especially for Sundance, is where, just timing-wise, the effects of the strikes and what could get made and what could get finished is really gonna be felt. So, I do think it's really slim pickings. I think you're right, and it is a factor. The one thing that seems to be impacting this, and as of now, as far as I can tell,

there have only been three sales through Monday morning. And those movies are Together, which is the Dave Franco and Alison Brie thriller that was in the midnight section that sold to Neon. There's Train Dreams, which I'll talk about shortly, which sold to Netflix. And there's Sorry Baby, which sold to A24. Um, in 20, when did I write this piece? In April of 2017, I wrote a long feature at the site. You might have edited this feature, I don't remember.

Um, called The End of Independent Film as We Know It. And the focus of that story was Netflix and Amazon getting very aggressive at Sundance and upending the market and redefining the kind of the purpose of the market at Sundance. And all festivals and obviously the way that Netflix has kind of barreled through award season is a part of this story. But one of the things that I couldn't get out of my head when I was writing that story and reporting it,

and I talked to like a dozen filmmakers, executives, was what happens when Netflix and Amazon and Hulu and all these other companies decide they don't need these movies anymore? Right. Whether they get their own production up and going, whether they decide that the taste of the culture has shifted or that, you know,

the kinds of stories that are told and often showcased that these film festivals is no longer on their programming strategy sheet. They have different goals. And they have different goals now. Yeah. You know, like underrepresented here, studio-wise, no Amazon, no Hulu, no Paramount. I don't think any of those studios even screened any movies.

Maybe there was one Republic Paramount movie that I saw, but like, they didn't bring their stuff to the festival and they didn't buy anything. Now, maybe they still will, but a lot of these companies kind of like left Sundance in the dust and they've killed a lot of the smaller distributors in the meantime. Think of all of the smaller indie distributors that have died over the last 20 years. So now you've got this, you know, genuinely perilous moment in indie movies.

And I do think I'm not taking away from the point you're making. A lot of it is like a lot of movies couldn't get made because people couldn't work. But during the strikes, if you were an independent project, you were more likely to work than if you worked on a Sony movie. So I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's not good. And I think the broader point that Netflix, you know, comes into every single market, blows up the price structure, and then moves on to, you know, wrestling or whatever. No offense, I know you love it, but... I'm not offended. It's like, you know...

I mean, that is what happened. We have seen this pattern again and again and again, and so they, like, break the model, reinvent it to their needs, and then move on. And it is a bummer, for sure. Yeah, it's kind of a double whammy this year in particular because of the one movie that they did buy, but I'll talk about that in a second. So you went, you were there for a short period of time, but did you sense any

of the energy that I'm describing? I'm just basing this on what I've read over the last few days. So I went to see like a very good friend's movie. I went to see Opus written and directed by Mark Anthony Green. A24 production, like A24 brought it. So, um, I was there as a friend and with a sense of personal joy. And that is a film that stars Iowa Deberry and John Malkovich.

So also like starry, exciting, MAG, as you know, because he's also a friend, brings people together. So I was at like a fun, high energy party. Meanwhile, they have blocked vehicle traffic off of Main Street now at Sundance, which I think is good for the environment and for pedestrians, but just meant that like it was literally empty, you know? And so Sundance, Park City, the place felt like actually empty. And the thing that always happens at any festival, but felt

heightened here was like, you're walking along and it's just door after door of place is closed to you unless you're there for like, you know, a car brands, like the activation, you know, party, whatever. And so there's just kind of a weird corporate vacuum in the place itself. So that's what I felt. Again, I was there for about 12 hours and I also hate the cold. So I was working with that personally. Was it snowing? No, but it had snowed, you know, and it was cold and it was dark and there was mountains.

Okay. And everything is gray. And you know, they took Santa Fe off the list of proposed next locations for Sundance. Did they? Yeah. It's not one of the three finalists. I think one of them is Still Park City or Salt Lake. Salt Lake is the second one and there's a third one I can't recall.

It is somewhere in Ohio. Okay. Which that's cool if the people of Ohio want to host. But again, Ohio also gets snow. So Santa Fe gets snow too, but I don't know. The landscape is more inviting to me. Anyway, so it's like a... Real quick, it's Cincinnati.

Cincinnati, okay, thank you. They have the chili on the pasta. Correct, yes. I don't want to offend any of the fine folks of Cincinnati. Never been, maybe I'll go. I haven't been either. Okay. So, you know...

If Sundance moves to Cincinnati, I will go. You really? I will attend, yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's cool. I don't know if I will, because it snows in Cincinnati in January, right?

It's certainly very cold. I don't know if it snows. I assume it does. I mean, sure. I don't have the weather report or the farmer's almanac. In any season, I'm oceans, not mountains. That's just where I am. I'm the seaside, on the snow entirely. I'm oceans, not mountains. That's just where I am.

I'm the seaside, not the mountainside. If the mountains are near the seaside, that's cool. I'll look at them from the beach. It's honestly alarmingly warm in Cincinnati right now. 68 degrees Fahrenheit, folks. Again, that's not my fault. 68 degrees. They should tape that up with their senator

to vice president. That seems uncommon. That's upsetting. If it's 68 degrees, I'm definitely going to Sundance. That sounds fantastic. Tomorrow it's 45 with a low of 29. I'm similarly averse to the cold, as you know. So, I got to go to Opus.

This was a delight. This was the first time that I had seen the movie because Mark Anthony was keeping it for me. Yes, he kept it for me as well. Yeah, but you got to see it as well. I saw it the week before, yeah. I just really liked it and it was really fun. And it is what a lot of things that I want to see in a movie,

it's very like pop in a good way and also really strange. There are like seven or eight different moments where I was like, this is just very memorable and I guess could only come from Mark Anthony's brain. But also I was like, this is funny that it came from Mark Anthony's brain. I had the same exact reaction. Yeah. I was like, this is so MAG, but also not. Yeah. Which is which was exciting and surprising. And then also, like, I don't I don't want to spoil it

because this movie is coming out March 14th. We'll talk about it again. I encourage everyone to like seek it out. But, you know, I had it watching in real time. I was like, OK, so this is a thing. And I could list the moments for you bit by bit. And I'm sure that you have many of them, and maybe also some different ones.

The music is incredible. I mean, it's done by Now Rogers and the Dreams, so that's not a surprise. Afterwards, I can't be like, and the music. And Zach was like, yeah, OK, it's now Rodgers and the Dream. Like, what did you expect? I did tell MAG though, that anytime there's original music written for a pop star figure in a movie,

Yeah, it's always bad. the success rate is like 14%. It's really low. No, I know. So that's one of the many accomplishments. I was trying to start a best original song campaign on the ground in Sundance. Why not? It's a good idea. Like submit it, because it's the worst category at the Oscars,

but this is one of the... There's one song in particular that is like... It qualifies, it is part of the text of the film, and it just... It bumps, and I can't wait to... We need Malkovich performing live at the Oscars. That's what we need. That would be amazing. We really, really do. So that was fun and that was really wonderful.

The other thing I wanted to say about Sundance is that I did meet a lot of big picture listeners. Oh, nice. Including, I promised Ben and Dan, I hope I got their names right. Ben and Dan. Yeah, they're twins and we talked a lot about the Eagles. Because, you know, I had, there's some anxiety producing things coming up in my household

in the next few days. So shout out to them. Ben and Dan are Eagles fans? You know, that wasn't clear to me, to be honest. They were just humoring your family? I didn't know whether they were Eagles fans or whether they just, like, knew that they had a, like, a moment, you know?

And they knew that that was,, like a moment, you know? And they knew that that was like a way to speak with me and to speak about my emotions. There was another gentleman who was there for Opus and as he was leaving, he just said to Zach, go birds. And then he said, and tell Chris Ryan, go birds. Was it Malkovich who said that? No, he wasn't.

I don't know who that man was. I don't know whether Zach knew him or whether it was just like the, like the Go-Birds has extended to people in the audience. But I met a lot of young people who were just at Sundance to see movies, like not in the industry, which was really, really cool. And they all seemed very excited. And they seemed like they were having a great time and seeing a lot of movies that they liked.

So I know everybody else came out of the festival really cranky. It was really exciting. I think that perfectly mirrors a lot of the binary conversations that we have on the show, which is that we remain incredibly excited about movies. The industry remains very dour about its future because boom time is over, right?

Like the ride and high on the hog of like even 2010, forget about 1987, like it's over. Like it's a smaller business than it was, but movies are still good. Actually, Tarantino made some headlines because early in the festival, I think he did a talk with Elvis Mitchell and he pronounced the movie business dead.

That movies are dead. Right, and so now he's writing plays or something? So yes, he's writing a play, which, you know, and he located 2019 as the year the movies died. Fittingly, the last time he released a movie. And, you know, I don't agree. Like, I just don't agree. I definitely agree that the business is way smaller,

and some of the things that he pointed out, that like movies get a two week theatrical release and then they go on VOD. I agree, it sucks. I think it's terrible. I think they fucked up the theatrical model. I think in some cases it benefits movies where people can't get out of their house

and so they can watch on VOD after a couple of weeks. And there was some benefit to that. Certainly benefits a show like ours where people get to watch movies more quickly. I was gonna say, we are in fact now scheduling like a lot of our segments based on when movies are available on VOD or on streaming for a wider audience to be able to see them. But the theatrical movie model, it's just changed a lot and it is smaller.

I'll use that as an opportunity to pivot to what I saw at Sundance. Not in a theater. Not in a theater, although there is an app so you can watch it on your television. And so watching a movie on my TV is not quite being in a movie theater, but I got a better experience than many people did who watched it virtually. I haven't been to Sundance in person since 2020. One thing to caveat this conversation with is there were seemingly a few fuckheads who were pirating movies off of the app and putting scenes on social media

over the weekend, particularly the movie Twinless and the Selena documentary. And so both of those movies halfway through the festival, the virtual festival were pulled down from the app because people were pirating them. To those people, fuck off, that's not cool. And I hope that doesn't imperil virtual Sundance. Yeah, you're ruining it for the rest of us.

I think that would actually only wound Sundance and the festival apparatus even more. So anybody who does that, whether they were stans or not, should not do that under any circumstance. I did feel lucky to see some movies. There were a bunch this year, maybe even more than normal, that were not made available on the platform. I saw Opus at a screening. Opus was not available.

I believe all the A24 films were not made available. There was a focus film starring Carey Mulligan, The Ballad of Wallace Island that wasn't available. A bunch of stuff that were theoretically bigger ticket titles, but the titles that'll be out in the next few months. What I did see... I think that there were three big standouts, maybe four, and then some stuff I liked.

That's a small number for Sundance. I'm usually able to pull a lot out. Yeah. I didn't see everything, but I did get through about 25 movies. The best thing I saw was Train Dreams. I think this was true for many people who saw it. Train Dreams is an adaptation of a Dennis Johnson novel, an author that I love, but I've not read this book. This is a really short Dennis Johnson book that is sitting on my shelf at home and I've

never read it before, so I didn't know the story. And it's directed by Clint Bentley and written by Bentley and Greg Quedar. These are the two guys who made Sing Sing. So Clint and Greg, as Greg talked about on the show when he talked about Sing Sing on the pod, they basically like trade where Clint makes a movie and Greg helps and then Greg makes a movie and Clint helps. That's a nice way to do it. Yeah, it is cool.

And they obviously have this great partnership. Clint had a movie at Sundance a few years ago, maybe it was Tiff, it might've been Tiff called Jockey. This new one stars Joel Edgerton, your favorite actress, Felicity Jones, Carrie Condon and William H. Macy. It's primarily Joel Edgerton, your favorite actress, Felicity Jones, Carrie Condon and William H. Macy. It's primarily Joel Edgerton. It's about a guy named Robert Greiner, who was a logger born in the 1880s.

And it just kind of charts periods of his life. Okay. I have been, I would say, unkind to Joel Edgerton as a movie star in the past. Yes. I have often said you could replace him with most other actors at his level and get a better movie. This is one of the first movies I've ever seen with Edgerton that perfectly accesses his skill, which is he is like, he has like a taciturn anti-charisma. His like, internal quiet is used very, very well in this movie.

Now, I'm very interested to see if you like this movie. I mean, you're just like, it's about a logger. It's very, very... Who has like, dealings with Felicity Jones at some point. I was like, well, I'm out. Yeah. No, I'm sorry, that's mean. It's not the most Amanda movie I've ever seen, but it is like a very heartful movie. It is very Malick, which I know you can go either way on.

It does a couple of things. It's good, and if it's not good, it's not good. That's the definition of which way I go. Yeah, I'm curious to see if these guys get their Oscar revenge with the Sing Sing situation with this movie. Sure, unfortunately, they were acquired by Netflix. That was... We have some questions. We've got some notes about the Oscar strategy. That is the tricky part.

One, this movie is beautiful. The opening shot of the movie is something I've never seen before in a movie, but immediately transports you into this world. It's like a camera is affixed to a tree that is being cut down, and you move with the tree. Well, now you've spoiled it. Well, it's the first thing we see. Stop telling me stuff. Okay, well, all right. I won't say anything more about the tree. Well, now you've spoiled it. Well, it's the first thing we see.

Stop telling me stuff. Okay, well, all right. I won't say anything more about the movie. Yeah. I only saw it on my TV, and while I was watching it, I was like, God, I wish I was in a movie theater for this, because it's so beautiful. And then I read that it was acquired by Netflix,

and I was like, what? Why? Why, like, of all the streamers and corporations, and why do they even want this movie? I don't... This movie has... says nothing about how Netflix programs their movies. I don't... is it just an awards play? I found this very disappointing that they bought it. I hope they put it in movie theaters. I know they probably won't. It's not a perfect film, but it's very good.

I was glad I watched it. People should check it out whenever it's made available to the world. A movie I liked. Yeah. It's called The Things You Kill. It's a psychological thriller by an Iranian filmmaker named Alireza Qatami. I'm not going to share too much about this movie because it's a bit of a head fuck. And to give away any of its plot details I think would ruin it. But if you like the kind of Iranian social realism,

like if you like Asghar Farhadi movies, or the Panahi movies, or Abbas Kherstami, and the sort of like ethereal quality that he brings to his movies, it's kind of like a big stew of those movies. It's set in Turkey, it's not set in Iran, but you know, you can see the major influence on Katami. And then there's like a very David Lynchian quality to it. So it was just sort of well-timed

since we've been thinking about Lynch after he died and thinking about the way that those influences kind of collide together. For a movie that basically you're just waiting to see like what's gonna happen, like a kind of traditionally well-told story. So I liked that. The best movies that I saw this year were three documentaries.

They're paired together. Obviously documentary is what Sundance is doing really well these days. The names of the movies are The Perfect Neighbor, Predators, and Zodiac Killer Project. I'll tell you about them very quickly. I think you'll probably be hearing about the first two throughout the year and we'll probably be talking about them at this time next year. The Perfect Neighbor is directed by Geeta Gandhi here.

It is about a terrible crime in Florida in a small neighborhood and it's told entirely through police body cameras, but it's not a movie about police brutality, that they're basically just the vessel to tell the story of a dispute between neighbors. And it's sort of like, it's a portrait of community problems and the problem of standard ground laws, which if you're not familiar with them, they're about the right to a certain experience in a home that Florida, I think passed, I wanna say 15 years ago, there's just an alarming incident rate

in the aftermath of the passing of this law. I don't wanna spoil anything for you. The movie is cut together like a kind of beat by beat who done it and why. It's like very slow rolling, but it's done, I think. It's right on the edge of exploitative, in my opinion. It doesn't really cross the line, but it shows just like a tremendously painful thing

that actually happened and confronts you with it. And then really had me thinking. Classic Sundance virtual experience of like, I watched this at 1130 p.m. and then was like, fuck. And then I couldn't go to bed and I couldn't fall asleep.

And I was thinking about it all day long. So that is the perfect neighbor. The next one is Predators. Did you ever watch the show to catch a predator? I don't know whether I watched it or whether it became like a meme

in so much or not even a meme, but like a reference bit in so much other pop culture, you know? Or like people would make jokes about it, or like, I saw your headline on to, I saw your face on to catch a predator or whatever. Like it became a reference point? It did, it did.

This was a show that ran from 2003 to 2007. It was a spinoff from Dateline. It was a show that was sort of, it was like, it was like a prank show to entrap. It was a show that was sort of, it was like, um... It was like a prank show to entrap child predators, you know? Like, it was... Was it really? Okay, then I never watched it. It wasn't, it's not a, it's not a prank show,

it's just set up the same way, where there's sort of like hidden cameras everywhere, and an actor would portray an underage girl or boy, and get into online conversations with men who were like, looking for a meeting and something much worse than that. And every episode was that. Every episode was hidden cameras in a home. There was a rented house, a 25 year old actor dressed to look like a 13 year old or a 15 year old.

And then the host of the show, Chris Hansen, who was a journalist for Dateline, would come out and confront the criminal, I guess, about what it was he thought he was doing in that space. And it was tremendously awkward, but sort of weirdly gratifying, because you were like, take this guy down. And it had a big moment in culture, as you say. Yeah, so I never actually watched this. The movie, the show in retrospect,

is such an ethical quagmire. And the documentary goes into extraordinary depth into figuring out how and why. And it's just an incredibly well done documentary. Like, I don't want to say anything else about it, but really, really probing and kind of forcing you to think about why you like the things that you like and what is really the line between an online experience versus a real

world experience and mental health and basically like what TV can do to victimize everyone involved. I loved that movie directed by David Osit. And then the third one is kind of cool. I think you will at least appreciate it. It's called Zodiac Killer Project. It's directed by Charlie Shackleton. Really more of an essay film. So Shackleton was trying to make a regular true crime documentary about a book about the Zodiac Killer.

At the last minute, the rights to the book fell through. The author decided he didn't want the book adapted. And so instead what he did is he took all of the tropes that you would find in one of these documentaries and he starts unpacking them and analyzing them. So a lot of B-roll of locations, and then he just talks over it and says, and here's the part in the documentary

where I would do this. You remember in making a murderer, this scene happened and it would be just like that scene. And he kind of like showcases all of these different strategies that documentarians use to get you invested in the worst thing in the world. Yeah. It's a clever movie. It's not on the par of the first two movies

that it's the first two docs that I talked about, but this like analysis of true crime and the way that true crime is rendered on camera or on screen is a fascinating trilogy, like accidental trilogy maybe. There were a lot of incidental or accidental like pairings across the whole festival. But that one was good as well and worth watching.

I'll mention a couple more. Yeah. Sorry, baby. Was there any talk of sorry baby when you were on the ground? No, but again, I mean, I like, I drove to Park City, went to the movie, went to a party, went home. I thought maybe at the party there would be,

because this movie was in the movies. No, I was mostly talking to my friends. That's the other thing. Or your friends. I met some of your friends as well, and they were very nice and said nice things about you. How nice to hear. And mostly they, we talked about other film festivals. Okay.

And how they're superior? Yeah, there was a lot of, not a lot of, but there was like, you know, come to Telluride, come to Telluride. Because like as soon as I go to a film festival, like the Siren Song of Venice, like reaches out to me, you know? But I don't know. It's, logistics are hard. Everyone wants to be in Telluride except for you.

It's a very strange, very strange thing. That's, that's, that's really true. I'm trying to get Griffin Newman to go this year. I think Griffin should go. I think for people who like mountains, like you go for it. Me, I like the sea and a Negroni. I'm certain that they have Negronis in Colorado. Nevertheless, we digress. I actually asked for one in Utah and they don't there for a variety of reasons. But anyway.

Yeah, Utah a little more challenging. Very nice bartender was like, we can make it, it's an open bar. We can make almost anything for you. And I was like, can you make an Negroni? And they were like, ah, no. And then everyone made fun of me. I'm very sorry to hear that. I thought it might come up at the A24 parties because A24 did acquire this movie.

Probably the least surprising thing I heard about Sundance this year was that A24 acquired this movie. Eva Victor is the writer director acquire this movie. Probably the least surprising thing I heard about Sundance this year was that A24 acquired this movie. Eva Victor is the writer-director of this movie. It's about a woman in a small college town reflecting on a traumatic event in her life. To share anything more would be saying too much. Okay. It is, on the surface, very Sundance.

Yeah. It's more clever than that, than your Tropy kind of a movie. Eva Victor, a comedian, I think pretty famous on TikTok, though as you mentioned, we're not on TikTok. Lucas Hedges is in this movie, he hasn't been in a movie in some time. He's back, he's also the boy prince of A24. Naomi Ackie is in this movie as her friend. Eva is the star of the movie as well as the writer and the director.

I think she nailed something really impressive with the tone. I think many of the people that I was reading out of the festival liked this movie more than I did, but it's still very good and worth recommending. OK. Two quick ones. Andre is an idiot. Really good documentary about a guy who gets colon cancer and then just decides to let people follow him

as he goes through the entire process of colon cancer. Sounds very upsetting. It is very upsetting at times. This guy is extremely irreverent. He's like an ad agency man too. So he like knows the power of visual communication. So he's like, he's in on the bit. And it's part of this thing that he's doing. This is actually also an A24 documentary,

which I did not realize. It won the audience award for US documentary. I think people will enjoy this. 2000 meters to Andriufka is Monteslav Chernov's follow-up to 20 Days in Mariupol. This is also a film about the war between Ukraine and Russia. And it's very scary and sad. It's sort of like the, I don't know,

kind of like the Black Hawk down to the children of men in 20 Days in Mariupol, you know? Like, it's just like, it's the war movie. It is, he's on the front lines as the Ukrainian army is attempting to liberate this, like, one-mile forest from Russian forces, which is considered a very strategic stronghold in this war. And so he's just with grunts in the trenches for two hours.

It's a tough watch, you know, just like 20 Days in Mariupol was tough, but worth watching. And then the saddest thing I saw was Omaha. Oh, great. We saved it to the end. Yeah. Cole Webley is the director. Robert Machoian is the writer. He's directed a couple of incredibly sad movies about men whose lives are falling apart and the way that it affects people around them.

I would say not an Amanda movie, although, like, it is in some ways as well. No, it's just... Does one need more sadness at this moment? Is where I am. And you and I and people feel differently about that. Well, I usually love to feel beat up by a movie. You know, it's been a really hard year.

I mean, it's overwhelming. Yeah, and so I think it was a lot going through the pain cave of Sundance. Yeah. This movie, it's about a father who flees his Nevada home with his two young children early one morning to go to Nebraska. Why he goes, wants to go to Nebraska is revealed throughout the movie. I think some people will be very mad at this movie because of how it makes you feel. Okay. That's certainly the point.

The reason I bring it up is because John Magaro, who has been my favorite actor for the last few years, is at the center of this movie. He is the most sad person in movies, as we all know, fans of past lives. He's the star of September 5, which is the point of discussion on this episode. Have you watched The Agency?

I haven't, no. He's on The Agency and he's actually getting to be at least like a little stupid, you know? It's not all like deep sadness. There is even a little bit of, he's making some blunders. I'm not caught up. I would welcome that. So like if he dies at the end and I am lying,

I'm really sorry, I haven't seen it yet. Okay, I hope he survives. Just a terrific actor and he's great in this movie, which will mix some people. Quick roundup on a couple of things I did like. The Jeff Buckley documentary that Amy Berg made is awesome. I'm a huge Jeff Buckley fan. I've probably talked about him on the show before.

There hasn't been a film about him. He died many, many years ago. This is as close as we're gonna get to the definitive story. I did see the Selena documentary, which I thought was pretty good. I thought it was pretty standard, but pretty good. Prime Minister, which is about the Prime Minister of New Zealand

during the COVID lockdown, and how she took a very different tact during complicated times in our history than many of the world leaders. That's pretty good. I watched the Marlee Matlin documentary, which also is pretty good, and kind of tracked the arc of her career

and her very tumultuous and ugly relationship with William Hurt, her role, you know, many performances over the years, being forced to be the only advocate for deaf actors for 30 years in Hollywood before CODA. Sly Lives, which full disclosure made by my friend Joseph Patel and directed by Questlove, is really good Sly Stone documentary that also attempts to kind of like interrogate the challenges of, as the subtitle tells us, the burden of Black genius, which is also like a big focus of Questlove's thought

in the last 20 years. And that's pretty much it. Most everything else that I saw was kind of mixed on. Okay, yeah. Dylan O'Brien's really good in Twinless. I didn't love Twinless, which was one of the movies that got pulled down.

Oh, but it also won a lot of awards. I think he won an acting award for it. And he's great. He plays twins, two very different twins. Right. So you're on the Chris Ryan island of this is stupid. He's against that. I usually enjoy it as an adaptation stan.

I think Guy Plays Twins is a funny idea for a movie. We'll see it again soon in Sinners. We've seen Tom Hardy do it. We've seen many actors do it over the years. Pretty mixed bag at Sundance. Pretty mixed bag. All right. Train Dreams, will you open your heart?

Which one is that again? You just listed like 45 films. I honestly, I don't remember anymore. That's the Joel Edgerton movie, the Netflix movie. Oh, yeah, the logger and Felicity Jones. Sure, you know, I will, I'm trying to have an open heart. Where are you at on Carrie Condon? Very pro, so that's good. What about William H. Macy?

Pro. But I'm still mad about the time that my dad made me see The Cooler on a holiday. And I was like, God damn it. Again, you know, we just like really had an incredible run. Sick Alec Baldwin performance in that movie though. Yeah, of my dad just picking depressing movies. After my own heart, really. Yeah.

He should have been in Sundance. I guess that's another part of my issue. I'm just like, well, it's Christmas, and we're watching The Savages, so... True story. It's not ideal. Should we pivot to Nickel Boys? Yeah.

Not a lot of people have seen this movie. Right, so we should... This is a complicated discussion. Yeah, we should be measured. Yes, let's be measured. Thank you. It's directed by Rommel Ross. It's written by Ross and Jocelyn Barnes. It's an adaptation of the Colson Whitehead novel. It is a divergence from the Colson Whitehead novel, which I have read

some of and went to after I saw the movie. It stars Ethan Harise, Brandon Wilson, Hamish Linklater, Fred Hackenger, Daveed Diggs, Jimmy Fails, and Anjanu Ellis-Taylor. It's about two African-American boys, Elwood and Turner, who are sent to an abusive reform school in 1960s Florida. The film is inspired by the true story of the Dozier School of Boys, which was a Florida reform school that was notorious for its abusive treatment. That's not really giving anything away, because that's not really... That's the story, but not the essence of the movie.

Right. I think I came back from Telluride and was like, this is the best thing I saw. At the time when I saw it, the people who also saw it there, I could tell were very split and divided. Yeah. Because the movie makes some formal choices that are challenging and for some distancing.

The split has basically been like, this didn't really work for me, I didn't get it, I couldn't get into it, or I thought it was boring. Or, I've never seen a movie like this before, it was amazing, took my breath away. I have not really seen much in the middle, I've not seen somebody be like, it was pretty good. You know, like that's not really the reaction

that the movie tends to elicit. So what reaction did you have? Yeah, I don't know how I pair like the exhilaration of the inventiveness. And to talk so much about form can be a little off putting, I think, until you've seen it, because you start to, or at least I am in it, Abin, start to worry about technical supremacy and kind of movie nerdiness,

but there is something truly astonishing and revelatory about the way this movie is made and what it can, what it reveals about the way you watch a movie, the way that you tell a story, the way that you see the world and learn things that I thought was electrifying and also translates into just like a, I mean, deeply heartbreaking story. Like this is, we were talking about sad stuff before, but I mean, you, because this movie is so good and communicates like emotion, history, perspective so clearly,

like that's a wallop, you know? So I was both like, oh my God, Nickel Boys. And like, I rewatched it last night and was just like, well, and now I'm feeling it again. So a huge, I mean, it's wonderful. Like it is definitely one of the best movies I've seen in the last year. You know, but I also...

It stays with you. And that's what, I mean, that's what movies should, right? Like, it is, it's, but, you know, it's tough. It's funny, you told me, and I think you came back from Tell Your Ride and you were like, it's a tough sit. And I thought that you meant that is because of... in many ways, it's using like a new or a new-ish film language and so you like have to focus, you know?

That's part of what I meant. And that's, but you know, the other half is that it is just, it's harrowing. It really is. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very upsetting story. And I think it's a little bit rote to say a necessary story, but I think the necessity of the movie is the way that it's being told. So, like, it's easy for me to get caught up

in some of the wonky filmmaking choices. I asked Rommel about most of the choices that he made when he was on the show. That was on the episode that ran, I think, December 20th. If you liked Nickel Boys and want to hear him talk about it, I recommend it. He's really, he's a professor, and you can tell, and he's really good at communicating his ideas.

I obviously, like, love directors who are good at communicating their ideas. But he is particularly adept. I've talked to him a few times now about the movie, and each time it adds to my appreciation of what he was trying to achieve, which is that... Even though I felt like the movie was distancing a little bit at first when I first saw it, because of the kind of the difficulty of the way that you're trained to watch movies and the way that this breaks the form of what

your expectations are, the truth is, is that he was obviously going for the opposite, which is that a photograph is by nature distancing, but perspective being inside of your own head through your own eyes is not distancing. You feel close to something. The way I feel right now between us, I can almost touch you. When you're watching something on a screen, you can't do that.

Or when you're looking at a still photograph, you can't do that. And so he's trying to break the barrier, I suppose, of experience by showing us as close as he can get and the filmmakers can get to what it was like to inhabit this world, if not these people. And the movie does it. Like, it does it. It takes a minute to turn the switch on. When I sat down to watch it, by the way,

I didn't know anything. Like, I didn't know that they were doing it this way. Like, there was no... Right, right, right, right. And so there is that moment of... What is going on here? And even if you do know, okay, it's like a different, you know, it's first-person's like a different, you know,

it's first person point of view or, you know, our brains are just wired to watch movies a certain way, to look at images a certain way, to learn information. Like in a certain way, we're trained to, like expect not just like plot development, but like the accretion of detail in a certain way. And so your brain, like that first 20 minutes, your brain is like definitely reworking.

And it is sort of intellectual at first, right? Like you're sitting there and you're thinking, oh, okay, you're doing this instead. And you at like, this is how you're showing me this and I'm supposed to know this. I thought that it was done so, so deftly, and also still with such like artistic choice that to me it was like really revelatory

in thinking about, I didn't mind that I was thinking about like camera decisions, not camera decisions, or you know, framing or all those sorts of things like that was really adequate to me. Why are you showing me this in this way? Yeah, and I also, you know, as an adaptation, because this is an adaptation of a novel,

that was also really exciting because I, you know, as someone who loves to read novels, a lot of movies don't really, you lose a lot in perspective shift, you lose a lot in perspective shift, you lose a lot in suggestion and what, just the way you make a movie versus the way that you write a novel.

So it was interesting and exciting to be thinking about, like, oh, so this is what you're communicating in this way. And this is kind of like, if you're writing a novel. So I thought all of that was cool, but you're definitely like focusing on that for a little while until you get into the rhythm of the film. And the film is also structured in a way

where it is really like, okay, for 20 to 30 minutes, we are going to really ground you in this visual decision that we're making, and you're gonna learn the language. And you are like maybe so focused on learning the language that you don't realize the emotions are seeping in, and then it makes... I mean, I don't really want to spoil it

because so many people haven't seen it, but... There is a decision, there's a moment in the movie that's like unlike anything that you've seen in some times. Yeah, we can, I think we can talk about a couple of them if we want to put a little bit of kind of casing around it. Before we get to that, this was sort of related to some of the things we talked about with The Brutalist, which is that to me, it's very, very important to celebrate a movie like this that wants to break convention to do something a little bit different. This movie is a lot different.

Yeah. Um, and I'm kind of astonished that it got nominated for Best Picture because of how different it is. Now, you could make the case, you know, it's produced by Plan B. Plan B is like the reigning champion of production companies that get nominated for Best Picture. And they often make movies that protect artists who have strong visions. Like that's a thing that they're very, very well known for.

And especially Dee Dee Garner and Jeremy Kleiner, the executives who run that company, like they have a very, very... They build like a force field around creative people. Still, this movie does a lot of things. In addition to the first person perspective, it uses archival imagery and what appear to be kind of like found documents that are created documents and musical and especially in the sound design choices

that are unconventional is too soft a word to describe how... It's, you know, it's a lot closer to kind of like, outsider art than it is, or what you might find in a museum. Yeah, I wrote fine art down. Yeah. Yes. But I think... it knows when you do need a little bit of emotionality. It knows when you need a little bit of performance of...

Performance in the sense of you need human characters. Like you need a little movie. Yes. There's like, you get on to Alice Taylor's, like the emotion machine of the movie, right? Whenever she's on screen, you feel deeply. When Hamish Linklater is on the screen, you're furious, you're mad. Like there are definitely choices that are typical of movie movie, right? Whenever she's on screen, you feel deeply. When Hamish Linklater's on the screen, you're furious, you're mad. Like, there are definitely choices that are typical of movie stuff, but many, many more that are not that.

Um... Right. But it's just so finely calibrated that it does know when to give you that hit of, oh, okay, so there's a thing where I know I'm supposed to feel right now so I can reorient myself around that and take the rest of the information in. There's one other thing that it does where, maybe we can start, we'll just do like five minutes

of spoilers, so if you do not wanna hear anything. Mwaaah! Spoiler warning. This isn't your typical plot spoiler, it's actually a formal spoiler in terms of the way that the movie was made, but it contributes significantly to the telling of the story,

which is that about 35 minutes through, once the Elwood character has arrived at the school, we see his experience through the first day or so, and he's having a conversation with a classmate in the cafeteria, and then we get pulled out of that experience and the camera essentially flips perspectives, and we go inside of his friend Turner's eyes. Right. And then the movie toggles back and forth between Elwood and Turner. Yeah. And then the movie toggles back and forth between Elwood and Turner. And so the first thing is that you see this character whose head you've been living in

for 35 minutes for the first time. And there is just something... Jubilant isn't the right word, but you're just like, oh, there he is. It's this person that you have been thinking about. And so it's almost like meeting your kid for the first time, sort of. You're just kind of like, oh, this is, I didn't have a visual on this. And it's a really, really memorable, remarkable feeling.

And then, and then because you're toggling between the two of them, it formally creates something almost akin to like third person traditional filmmaking. So they like, you do get a conversation or two between them. You get that little thread of what, I think of like what we're looking for in terms of just how to watch a movie. But you also then get Turner's perspective,

which is emotionally and slightly different than Elwood's. And he sees the world in a different way. He sees Angelina Ellis Taylor in a different way. And so it's like a compare and contrast as well that it's just cool. Like it's just, I mean, I can't believe they pulled it off. Yeah, it's pretty stunning. And then I think, I won't explain how, but that choice that is made wends amazingly with the telling of the story in the second half

and becomes such a coherent choice. Like when the movie flipped, and the first time I was watching it, and then we start going back and forth between Elwood and Turner. Right. I thought this is a surprising and interesting choice. I'm not sure justification is a strong word, but sort of like what the purpose was other than to kind of like before sunset it, you know, or it's like, he thinks this way and he thinks this way and they can go back and forth.

And then there's a fusion of that choice that really pays off. I would never presume to give this a note, but I will just say from my experience the first time, it pays off in one way. There is, and we've put the spoiler things on it, but there is sort of like a, we're jumping times here and so there's a framing device. I don't know that I like got all the information I needed to the first time with the framing device

or I wasn't paying close enough attention. Do you know what I mean? I mean, I think it's meant to be more of a reveal near to the end. Did you get the review or not quite? Not quite. That's what I mean? I mean, I think it's meant to be more of a reveal. Near to the end. Did you get the review? Or not quite? Not quite. That's what I'm saying. Like, I understood basically what happened, but then I was a little confused about, like,

then what I was seeing, and then I went, I had to go and look it up online. And so then I watched it a second time and I was like, oh, okay, so this was quick, you know? Like, in some ways it also... There's some giveaways in the sort of like... Sure. ...Divide Diggs being cast, for example.

Yes. Is kind of a giveaway... Yeah. ...in terms of what they're doing. Yes. Which I think some people complained about when I was at Telluride. They were like, this kind of ruined

where this was going for me because I know that voice. Whereas when you're in the film, the two young actors, we really don't, they haven't been in a lot. We don't have a big relationship with them. And so it gives you this like, you know, I should say Rommel was a documentarian. He was nominated for an Oscar for Hale County this morning, this evening.

The movie, the first half of the movie, kind of until like Hamish Linklater and Fred Heckinger show up, I was like, this is just documentary filmmaking with like Anjanou Ellis Taylor in a kitchen. And the same way that that, same way that Hale County felt like a guy who was hooked on Malik decided to make a doc.

And this is such, I mean, this is, the Tree of Life is such an important movie to this movie. It's incredible. Like if you haven't seen the Tree of Life recently, rewatch especially my favorite parts of that movie, which are the scenes in Texas when he's a young boy and the way that Malik shoots perspective and the way that Ross shoots perspective. Like they are, I know I always use this phrase, but they are talking to each other. Like they are, it is a communication bridge. The things that I, more or less the Daveed Dig stuff is what I struggled with, which

is sort of like the revelation of the history of the experience that was had. Yeah. I didn't think it worked as well. However, I thought the single best scene in the movie was the bar scene, which just features like an incredible performance from Craig Tate as one of the kids from the school who he stumbles into and they have a long conversation in which they talk around their experience. And kind of like, it just shows you, it's just a very brief period of time, but evidence of what happened to these kids who made it through this school. So I didn't love some

of the modern day stuff. Same, yeah. But I do think that there's a necessity to that part of the story that I thought had value. Again, it's one of the reasons why I'm like, you know, I know you're ragging on me for being like, it's four and a half out of five or whatever, but I'm like, these are, there are things in the plotting

where I felt what I could feel with him was like, this is an unseasoned narrative filmmaker making a lot of bold moves and not all of them are gonna work. But aside from that, everything that happens in Florida is tremendously effective. The decision not to portray certain things when the camera looks away, when it looks at something,

the way that a person would, that stuff is so sophisticated and so interesting. I really, really liked this movie a lot. It's wonderful. I mean, I hope more people get a chance to see it. I hope that you aren't listening at the... I mean, maybe people have skipped at this point, you know? I hope we didn't spoil it for people who haven't yet

had a chance to see it. Yeah. It's, um... But, you know, this is a movie podcast, you know? We gotta talk about our movies. This guy nominated for Best Picture. Get out there, folks. I know, that's this curious thing about this time in movie history is a movie like this is,

I don't think it's coming to streaming for like another month or something, which is just odd. I don't know. It was originally gonna come out in October and then they pushed it to December and then it came out in five cities and then they pulled it and now you can't really watch it. We're lucky that we got to watch it the way that we did. People should check it out. Yes.

And listen to, not just my conversation with Rommel, but I would go hunt down some of his interviews because he's a great talker for the movie. Okay, I don't know if we could pivot any harder. But it's like, it's for like an emotionally sort of downer episode. So we started high, Opus, then just, you know. Well, we started with you acquiring the password to the email account.

Oh, sure, that's right, that's right. That was the highest high. Bonnie has not provided it yet. We're still in here. Bonnie, I'm just watching. Is it useful if I texted you right now? Just say it on the pod. You know, another of my friends texted me

about the guy from The Idea of You, and so I, and I had time to respond to that. So I can, I can do a lot. We can have it all on this podcast. Nicholas Galitzen? Yeah, I think she enjoyed the performance, not me. So Password, Opus, Positive, then Bummertown Sundance, an artistically tremendous, but emotionally grueling film in Nickel Boys. And now we're going back up.

We're going back up to Goodrich. Ha ha ha ha. Which I did tell you, I watched over the holidays. Yeah. With low expectations. Sure. I can't say I'm a fan of Home Again. No.

I had a great time at the premiere, but yeah. Uh-huh. Wonderful house. Didn't, sure. That will come up again, I'm certain. Yeah. Um, and you know what? Maybe this is my bias showing, Yeah. Wonderful house. Didn't it? Sure. That will come up again, I'm certain. Yeah. And you know what? Maybe this is my bias showing,

but the perspective of the movie obviously flatters some of my personal interests and experiences in life. But this movie, which is about an art dealer in his 60s, whose wife leaves him all of a sudden to check herself into rehab and leaves him with two nine-year-old twins, and he has no idea what to do. He's obviously an older dad who is not the primary caretaker of his children. He also has an adult daughter who's going through some things of her own.

She's also pregnant. And it's just a... It's your classic James L. Brooks family kind of coming apart, but they need each other dramedy. Yeah, and they say emotional things to each other in, you know, recognizable slice of life set pieces. Correct. And the things that we don't normally get to say to each other are said...

What is it that you need to say to me right now? Pretty, pretty... Articulate the things you need to say. Pretty explicitly, you know? Yeah, so your boy Michael Keaton is the star of this movie. Yeah, I think he's everybody's boy. This is unbelievable. I did, if you're going to read text messages, you should also read the text message I sent you about Studio Ghibli over the weekend.

Oh, right. You, okay, hold on. Oh, Bobby did just send me the password. Okay, thank you, Bob. Noted. Okay, here we go. Alice has been on a Studio Ghibli kick this week. We know that because you got angry texts from Eileen being like, where are the Studio Ghibli Blue Races? I can't find them.

I don't know, but that was an all-time moment. That was like five minutes before we started recording. She was like, I need to know where Princess Mononoke is ASAP. That's an intense one for Alice to be requested. She didn't watch it. It's way too grown up for her. Okay. And I realized if Knox needs an introduction, it's this one. And then you accidentally sent me the link to Greta Gerwig's Uber Eats ad. And then... you sent me a link to Greta Gerwig's Uber Eats ad. And then...

you sent me a link to Porco Rosso, and you described it as Michael Keaton as a 1930s pig pilot. Which, honestly, if Knox does need an introduction, that is what we would start with. Instead, I showed him Mamma Mia last night. He's like an Errol Flynn Humphrey Bogart style character. Yeah.

He's like a devil may care hero. At some point, we will. Okay, I'm just putting it out there. Knox, I know, would be like, this is crack. Like, I need this. Anyhow. Amanda, I actually think you would like Porco Rosso. I think that'd be a good one for you. It's good, right?

It is. It's very good. It's like not really striving to be high art either. It knows that it's being silly the whole time. I'll check it out. Michael Keaton is terrific in this movie. Unreal. And it made me think a lot about our Michael Keaton Hall of Fame and he gets handed a lot of these regular,

and he's not a regular guy. He's like a really rich, successful art dealer, but he turns it into someone you just want to be around. I think if there's a problem in this movie, it's that he makes the character too likeable. I agree. I'm just like, everything he's doing seems fine. He's supposed to be more flawed than he feels like.

But he's Michael Keaton. And he's just like, he's doing good, you know? It's the trick of the movie is, is that it wouldn't work without Michael Keaton, but Michael Keaton is kind of upsetting the narrative structure because of his natural charm. Right. Mila Kunis plays his daughter in the movie.

Kind of a stacked cast in this movie. Carmen Ajoge plays the daughter of an artist whose estate Keaton's character is pursuing. Don't spoil who the wife is. I won't. I won't. I enjoyed that. Yeah, because great, I don't want to spoil them, but great... A late reveal.

Great cold open to this movie, very funny. And then... I couldn't clock it when I was listening. I know her, and then she shows up, and I almost, I gasped. Yeah, well, there are multiple wives revealed in this movie that we don't know. Oh, that's true. Also don't spoil that one. Yeah, a couple of good ones. Yeah. Yeah, there are multiple wives revealed in this movie that we don't. Oh, that's true. Also, don't spell that one.

Yeah. A couple of good ones. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't... It has a lot of the trappings of great Nancy Meyers films, of course. Like the production design of this movie is excellent. For me, it's even more satisfying, because I'm like, if I was a rich art dealer, this is the kind of house I would have.

And I lived in California, you know, Los Angeles and... Incredible house. Architectural Digest will not let me sign in to my subscription of house I would have. And I lived in California, you know, Los Angeles and... Incredible house. Architectural Digest will not let me sign in to my subscription in order to let you know where the house actually is. I would as well. And there was a piece on it. But incredible production design and costume design throughout. Like everything just looks so good and cool. Could you imagine having twins in your 60s? No.

That's a bit of a horror movie in that respect. Yes. Well, there are nine now. And he's supposed to... 64? I mean... Well, I think Keaton is in his 70s, IRL. So, shout out to him. But, so you're supposed to have twins in your... Listen, I can't imagine having twins.

You know? So... Yeah, how old was my dad when he had my sister? But so you're supposed to have twins and listen, I can't imagine having twins, you know, so Yeah, how old was my dad when he had my sister? using his early 50s Maybe 50 that's fucking that's hard. Yeah, I'm 42 right everything's breaking down No, it's true. But I and you know another Argument of the movie that Michael Keaton doesn't really uphold

is that he's not been a present dad up until this point. Yes. So maybe it wasn't his problem until now. What did you think about the big emotional conversation near the end with Mila Kunis? The one outside the hospital? Well. Did it work for you?

I have to say in general, I think that, you know, Mila Kunis is one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen and her pregnancy styling was A-plus, you know? I needed a little bit of a better actress. Exactly. Yeah, even, even. Because it's good writing. It is good writing. And it did. Halle Meyer Shire is the daughter of two very successful directors. Charles Shire passed away at the end of last year, which is, you know,

it very sad in any context. Hard not to read that in this movie. But absolutely in the context of this movie. And when the mom character shows up and was, you know, I was like, oh, and this is the Nancy part of it too. So this is fascinating. Yes, love that part of it. So it is good writing.

And again, it is like that would never happen at in real life. You know, those people would never air those grievances but the grievances are aired in a nice way. I did have a couple of notes on the performance. I would extend that to what I think is the best scene in the movie, which is the scene. So Mila Kunis' character will surprise literally no one to learn, does go into labor.

And you know, her dad, Michael Keaton, has to be there for her. And then the husband shows up and gives a great speech. It's a really, really, really good speech. And that character is framed as this sort of like the antithesis of Keaton's character, where he's like a little bit more beta. He's more of a sensitive caretaker type. And, you know, he's really there for her, and career second, and family first, and all these things that Keaton's character views as a little modern and silly, and I don't know, soft, I guess.

Yeah. But... And so the baby's heart rate is going down, I think. And so Mila Kunis is like, I mean, this is one thing. She does have an epidural. I, you know, we're just going, we're going to get into some nitty gritty here. Okay. Um, sure.

I think she, they say yes to the epidural. Um, so she could like be lying there fairly placidly. I got an epidural and then I did take a nap because I needed it because I hadn't slept in 24 hours. But he gives this whole amazing, like really well written speech and they're cutting to Keaton who is just like having all the feelings and losing it and then Mila Kunis is just like lying there on the pillow just like placid like absolutely no reaction. She's just like smiling me typically and I was like A, you're in labor, even with an epidural. And B, like some emotional stuff is happening.

Maybe we could react like a little bit, and that doesn't really happen. But I don't care. It was good. This movie is available on Macs right now. Yeah. And one thing that it had me thinking about after I saw it was, I felt like I said, north of 10 times, this is a movie like they used to make in 2024, and I don't know if that, I kept saying that,

which I think is a generally good thing, which is, I think actually part of the reason why last year was not a great movie year, but was good in my mind, because there were just a lot of like sixes and sevens. There were not a lot of like twos and threes, in my opinion, last year. And I think that part of it was because the studios were like, quieted for a period of time.

So there was like less IP crap. There was less like, less reaching for a billion dollars. Yeah. And so a lot more stuff like seeped through the cracks. This movie was released by Ketchup Entertainment. Sure. And so I just really, you know, I don't love these movies as much as you do,

but I do really like movies like this. And we want them to exist. With a stacked cast, even if we have some notes. And like good writing, even if it's a little obvious at times. Like obvious is good. Like you and I were raised on obvious studio movies of the 90s, you know? There is a very strong place for them.

Exactly. Also, just put in Hathaway in the Mila Kunis part. Tell me how much better this movie is. It's definitely better, but like, I think she would probably like go a little too hard with the labor scene and the crying, you know? And I just... Go for it, Annie.

It's like somewhere in the middle. Also, by the way, a C-section in that situation is okay. It happened to me, we don't need to talk someone out of a C-section to healthy kids. But I just, I don't want people to feel bad. You know, it was set up as like some sort of disaster and it's okay. I think Anne Hathaway would be a lot. I don't know if she also like meets Michael Keaton's energy where...

I think there would be fireworks. I think there would be electrifying. That would be fine with me. Michael Keaton, so he had Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice last year. Did he hit something else too? Didn't his movie, Knox Goes Away come out? Oh, Knox Goes Away. Yeah, Knox Goes Away.

The legendary Knox Goes Away. That wasn't ideal. But he's back. He was great in Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice too. Yeah, he's a wonderful actor. I'm a big fan. I'm happy for you. Great sweaters, great everything in this up, in this nice gallery space. Yeah, early 60s style.

Yeah. I gotta get into that. I gotta start thinking about that. Now that I'm like out of having a baby, I'm like, maybe I should start buying clothes again. Yeah. Because you just don't need to buy any clothes when you just have a baby.

It's just like, here's avocado all over your shirt. Yeah. I mean, the amount of stuff that... that was on my shirt yesterday at the end of the day, at 7 p.m. That was tough. Yeah, you're in the thick of it. Yeah. Anything you want to say about September 5 really quick? A great procedural.

Yeah. I think this movie slipped into a little bit of... Anything you want to say about September 5 really quick? A great procedural. Yeah. I think this movie slipped into a little bit of... discourse wars. And there's obviously a reason for that because of the events that are portrayed in the movie. I saw the movie very clearly as, like, people obsessed with people doing things. There's like a Sorkinian quality to this.

There's like a David Fincher quality to this. When I talked to Steven Soderbergh on the show, he was like, this is, I love this movie. I had no notes, which is great conversation. Yes. Thank you to Steven for saying my first name. Also, did you cut that out and like put it in a little box somewhere on your phone?

No, I didn't. I had a nice moment. But like, this is definitely like a Soderbergh movie too, right? I'm just like, we gotta do it. Like, it's all about action. And then considering the effects of the action later, so. Yes, and there are some damaging effects. I thought that the movie did a pretty good job

of showing that cavalier action, this is not a movie about perfection and execution. It's a movie about people who are ill-equipped, trying their best and at times failing to do the right thing. So I thought pretty nifty movie. I did compare it on Letterboxd to an HBO original movie, which people think is meant to be a dig and is not a dig. There was a time in the 90s when every Saturday night,

there would be a new, maybe it was Friday nights. I can't remember when the original movie aired. I, maybe it was Friday nights, I can't remember when the original movie aired. I think maybe it was Friday nights where like, it would be like, Ving Rhames is Don King. Just two hours of Ving Rhames doing Don King, it was tremendously entertaining. It didn't quite feel like going to the movies, but it was good.

And this movie is the same. Okay, let's go to my conversation now with Tim Felbaum, the director of September 5. Sick of dreaming smaller? Sick of investing but not seeing your money grow? Sick of feeling like you're leaving money on the table, paying high fees, and not knowing if you're even making the right investments? With Questrade, you get the right tools, stock insights, and proper guidance so you can become a better investor. It's time to get the financial future you deserve. Get yours, Questrade.

Very excited to have Tim Feldbaum here. We're here to talk about September 5. Tim, I'm curious where this movie came from. Questrade. Very excited to have Tim Felbaum here. We're here to talk about September 5. Tim, I'm curious where this movie came from for you. Were you even alive when the events that took place in the movie happened? Look at me. You look like a beautiful young man. No, I'm kidding.

No, I wasn't alive. Yeah, I was born 10 years after. So no, jokes aside, yes, I first learned about what happened on that day in Munich from a documentary that I saw as a teenager in the theater. I don't know, maybe you've seen it. It's called One Day in September by Kevin MacDonald. This on many levels had a huge impact on me. In addition to that, I studied in Munich.

I went to film school in Munich. I was born and raised in Switzerland, but after that I went to film school in Munich. In Munich, even after all these years, the story still feels quite present. It's like the buildings where it happened are today's student housings. We would always—it's a very special architect that the Olympic Village has. today's student housings. It's a very special architecture the Olympic Village has. There were many student films that we would shoot there. You would always know, this is the apartment where this tragedy happened.

This is the balcony where that image has been taken, that image that everybody knows of the masked person stepping out on a balcony. I was always interested in that story and especially in that image. So, after my two previous movies, we started to do research on that day. That process learned more and more about what an important role the media played. As we got deeper into that field or into that direction of the research, we were lucky enough to find an eyewitness. That is Jeffrey Mason.

That is the character played in the movie by John Magaro. He was there in this control room during this 22-hour marathon of broadcasting when this group of sports journalists—that's a special thing. They were a few hours before they were reporting on the Olympics on actually US swim star Mark Spitz swimming to his seventh gold medal. And a few hours later, they had to make the switch to reporting on a crisis. And yeah, that was the initial spark for us to tell the story, that conversation, to tell the story entirely from that perspective.

How did you stumble upon Jeff Mason, you know, and make your way to him? And did that actually, did he become the POV character because of your access to him? I would say yes. I mean, I have to add though that he's also a combination of certain roles that in reality, and he also, for him, it's really important that we mention that because he wants to be respectful of his colleagues, that in real life these were several people doing that job. Of course, we took their artistic license to combine certain characters. He was essential in the project in many ways.

Basically, the script is based a lot on his memories of what they experienced in the control room. He helped us to be authentic with the dialogue. And he was also crucial when we then finally could approach or get the copyrights for the archival footage, which was not easy, but was for us was essential that we could actually use some real footage. Yeah, I do want to ask you about the blending and where you chose to recreate versus where you chose to use archival. But maybe before that you can talk a little bit about how you thought about shooting and pacing the film. It's a very short period of time that you're capturing, but it's not all in

real time the entire film. So how did you think about structuring it? Then the movie would be 22 hours long. I like a good 90 minutes movie. But yeah, it's a good question. It's like, I would say, again, I would go back to that conversation that we had with Jeffrey Mason. And when we asked him how the stay felt for him, he said it was just a constant adrenaline rush. All the decisions they made were against a ticking clock. I don't know if you ever visited these live television studios. When doing research, I went to a lot of sports broadcast control rooms and everything is clocked to the minute.

So, you can only imagine what it means when they do suddenly report on a tragedy like this. So to me that or to us that was clear, okay, this is also how the movie should feel. And you are in that rush and the reflection only comes afterwards. And then so that is already in a way the basic structure of the script is already there. But then also when you shoot it, we had the same approach. We wanted to basically, we had this idea of just covering Marcus Verder, the DP and I, of just covering it as if we ourselves would be a broadcast crew in the room observing these people, observing that situation on the monitors.

We just shot, very much in documentary style also. This is a nice thing because then you have these moments that feel authentic or real, but on the other hand, you create a lot of footage. This is where editing comes into play, or is a really important part then on shaping the movie. I think the editor, Hans-Jörg Weisbrich, had an enormous influence on the whole rhythm and everything. But ironically, it was tougher to find the quiet moments, where for a moment the emotions kick in or so,

than to find the tense moment, because the tension was there all the time. Yeah, I love the balance between the conversations that can be had in the control room and the conversations that need to be had in the hallway too and that this was not a space that was designed to cover this kind of coverage of an event, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Can you talk about why you felt the story resonated now and why you thought it was important to do it some 50 plus years later? Oh, yeah. Again, to me, I mean, there are so many aspects of that day that are relevant, especially also for today. One, of course, is the ongoing crisis that is tragically not solved yet

between Israel and Palestine. But our movie is about the media perspective, and this also seems to be a very, especially from today's point of view, a very relevant question. I mean, today everybody here has a camera and a TV in their pocket. And we are surrounded by a rapidly fast, rapidly evolving media landscape. I myself know that sometimes I'm overwhelmed by where to get my information from. We thought that, especially for today's audience, it would be interesting to take a step back

and see how, a little bit more than 50 years ago, an event of this nature was covered for the first time in live television. It is, in a way, about this moment that the media changed. I want to add one thing, maybe, that even before this tragedy happened, and it might be interesting to know, this Olympics in Munich have been an absolute turning point in media history because it was the first Olympics on German soil since 1936, which was misused for fascist propaganda, and now Germany wanted to send out a new image out to the world, the image of the liberal Germany. That's also why they didn't want to have any armed police in the village, which we now

know was a mistake. And for sending out that image, they have set up an never before seen technical apparatus. It was also the first Olympics that could be broadcast live globally by satellite. Everything was set up for per-optimal TV coverage, the venues. They had this camera on the Olympic tower that they could have access to. Then suddenly that whole apparatus switched from reporting on the, as the Germans called it, the serene games. They wanted to almost have a Woodstock hippie-esque vibe to it.

And then this whole media apparatus had to, or made the switch to report on this crisis. It's fascinating. I'm, I'm curious about your decision to make a movie like this too, because it feels very different from the previous films that you've made and a docudrama like this. I wasn't familiar with your work before I saw the movie, and so I'm curious how you came to something like this.

Yeah. Yeah, so very much see where that question is coming from. My two previous movies were in a way in a sci-fi area or post-apocalyptic films. I want to add though that I had a similar approach already. I mean maybe you haven't seen them. September 5 is what I would say is the best one so far I can say. No, I took a look at Tides because I had but I hadn't seen it before until after. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but you should maybe check out the first one. The first one is about like now 13 years ago and is about climate change.

A long time before it was an everyday topic in newspaper. And in both of these films, even though they have all these futuristic scenarios, they also had the same approach to how to shoot them in this documentary style. I said I want to have an almost European art house feeling to a genre movie. So there are many similarities, but of course when approaching a story of this historic relevance, I mean when you do science fiction you also do research a lot, right? But when you do something that is so important and people really lost their lives. And yeah, you do much more research before you even start to write a single bit. And that's what I also enjoyed.

I mean, enjoyed might be the wrong word in that sad context, but the whole research process, that was really something that I found very interesting. And especially then as we got deeper and deeper into that perspective, that was to me, that's something that I learned from making this film in a way that the more specific you are with your perspective, the more you can also, I don't know, I also hope that in a way the audience also when watching the movie that you learn something about making television back in that analog world and that hopefully you find that fascinating.

I absolutely did. One thing that was interesting to me too as a viewer was, you know, Peter Jennings is a staple of my childhood. He is the newscaster who was on in my home. How old are you? I'm in my 40s. But he was just on hosting World News Tonight every day in my house for many, many years. And so, you know, he's just a very familiar figure. But so you have this, this interesting choice you've made where you've got some well-known real world people who you are casting as actors, and then you have the, you know, McKay style figures who you're only using archivals.

Maybe you can talk about the balancing that as well. Of course. I would love to talk about this. First of all, Peter Jennings, yeah, it's like Peter Jennings also did live coverage of, as you know, I see you nodding, of 9-11 for I think 48 hours or so he was in the studio. And there's an interview that I saw with him once when he was asked how he could go through this. And he just said, well, very simple answer.

I've been in Munich 72. That has been, in a way, his training day. It's a good question, your question, about Peter Jennings in our movie is being recreated with an actor, right? While Jim McKay isn't. There's a reason for that because, in a way, our movie is a movie about the people behind the camera. But Peter Jennings has a very special role in that team because Peter Jennings was the only moderator coming from ABC News. He was invited by Rune Arlige. He said, come to Munich.

He was the Middle East expert for ABC News. He was invited by Ruhn Ahlert, come to Munich, take a vacation from your Middle East job and do some pieces for us. He did these pieces, for example, on Dachau, the concentration camp, as we show it in our movie. Then, suddenly, as he said, it's also in the movie, ironically, he ends up being more close to the conflict than ever before in his career, in his function as the Middle East expert.

And then also, since the special thing about the movie is that it is a sports crew that has to make the switch. You know, they weren't experienced or trained in reporting in a situation like this. The one person that is coming from news and is warning them about, for example, the use of certain words or something, as we show it in the film, should be a character in the movie. While Jim McKay is, of course, the face of that whole broadcast. To us, while we recreated, and we actually did recreate a lot of the archival footage, I hope it's seamless and you don't see it, but we, for example, didn't want to show any

out of respect, didn't want to show anyone who really lost their life on that day. We shot a lot of these scenes, but what I really figured what we could never recreate is the human element of Tim McKay's performance it's just a very unique way of how we talked into the camera and so I said like this we absolutely have to get the Rights and have to be able to use it works really effectively and I'm curious to hear you talk about

John McGarro like I've said John you talk about John McGarrow. Like I've said John, I've said that John McGarrow is my favorite working actor like a couple times in the show in the past. He's somebody like in every, he improves every movie. So I'll tell him that I see him. Well, I was delighted to see him at the center of your movie. You know, he really is the engine of it, especially in the second half. Yeah.

But you know, you haven't made a lot of, you haven't made any American productions or you know American stories or you know how did you go about casting this and how did you end up with this, especially the quartet of actors who are at the center of the movie? Yes, that's a very good question because I mean for European productions sometimes it's maybe not easy to get a US.S. cast. But for me, of course, it was crucial that it is in a way, even though this story takes place in Germany, it is also an American story. It is told from an American point of view.

And yeah, I would say like in Germany, I'm established enough name so that I can call an actress of the level of Leonie Benes and she's interested in having a conversation. So internationally maybe not so much. We had also a hard time to approach the cast and then we were lucky enough that what made the change here is that Sean Penn, Sean Widemouth, and John Palmer came on board with their company Projector Pictureworks as partners. They were actually really early on in the process involved and were essential collaborators

on everything. They were already on the script stage. In addition to that, it also helped with casting. You can imagine maybe when you can write an email with a film produced by Sean Penn, it helps to get you an answer faster because he's very well respected name, especially in the actor's world. Were there any other POV characters

that you thought about including? You mentioned that you compressed some into the Jeff character. How did you think about having too many voices in those conversations to effectively tell it? That's an interesting question. Yeah, we had some, I can give you an example.

So Sean McManus, who is the son of Jimmy Kay, who I was lucky enough to meet at one of these control rooms and who also was kind enough to share his memories of these Olympics because he was there as a teenager, right? His father was hosting the cameras. And at a certain point, we also made him as a character. Him, the teenager whose father is in the studio and all that. Just as much as I would have loved the movie to also be Sean McManus as a part of it, it felt too private in a way. This is a movie about their people in their working environment and so it didn't feel

appropriate to the bigger subject in a way. So that's why we then, as you say, we stay focused on the major subject and on not too many characters, we decided to not go further with this character. But he saw the movie recently for the first time in New York and he was really proud. He saw it with his son and that was really touching because after screening he turned to his son and said, wow, your grandfather, like Tim McKay. And that was quite a moment. Well, that's fascinating too because he had had, he had such an esteemed career at CBS

and working in news and in sports and you know, his, they have a lineage there. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm impressed by it, by how much you know, but it's like he actually is the only person, like Ruhn Alic was the first person to be that, the head of the news and the sports organization, news organization. And Rune Ollich writes in his biography, he would have never gotten that other job. If his training day was also Munich, where he proved for ABC that he could do the handle news. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, the company where I work, we cover film and television, but we also cover sports.

And so somebody like Rune is like a legendary figure and somebody that we know a lot about. And, you know, that the closeness of sports and news and the fact that even though the teams weren't prepared to do that work. And actually, you know, I like how you show how they make mistakes, like meaningful reporting mistakes

during the telling of the story, but that, you know, but that is something that happens in the process of reporting sometimes. Oh, all the time. And again, I'm getting back to also, this was an unprecedented situation. They didn't expect that. But in addition to that, I wanna say that a lot of people

that work in today's news business, like H-Television have seen the movie now, and they came up to me after the screening and said to me, that was so astonishing for them to see that while obviously technology is completely different, everything is faster, there's even more that you have to deal with in a way. But the bigger questions are exactly the same today, what they're discussing. What can we show?

What can't we show? How many confirmed sources do we need to have before we send something out? Um, yeah. Do we show violence? Like all these questions, that's still the same discussions today. It's really powerful. Um, one thing I'm sure you feel very comfortable with, but I'm curious to hear you talk about is creating a sense of authenticity of Germany at this time and maybe what Germany was like and the

intersection between these American visitors who are making TV and the people of the country and even just the atmosphere of the country at that time. No, that's very important aspect of the movie. One we just talked about that Germany that Germany wanted to have this image change of being the new liberal Germany. So it was really an important event, these Olympics. It was Germany's makeover, so to say. Of course, for us, it was essential that we have this in a movie.

Because yeah, it's just such an important part of the premise when this story takes place, also that it's so close to World War II. But then we knew, okay, our film only takes place inside that studio. How do we get that part of the story into our setting, so to say. And the answer to that is the character of Leonie Bénich, Marianne Gephardt. So she represents this new generation that tries to free themselves from the past. And yeah, her character represents that whole aspect of the story. Congratulations on your Golden Globe nomination. Is this very strange for you?

You're now thrust into an awards race. You have a big American film. It's getting released in lots of theaters. Tell me about how you're feeling. Oh, it's overwhelming, yeah, in a very positive way. I gotta say, I mean, I told you a little bit on how we started this movie. You would have never thought that this this journey that we would make one time and and yesterday morning that was really special. We were here with my dear producers Thomas Webka and

Tom Palmer and the other producers were in the in the zoom and yeah, we we couldn't believe it when we heard it and it was really special. What do you think this means for your career? Like, do you know what you're going to do next? No, I don't know. I think, I mean, I have certain ideas. Well, I think it certainly helps. That's the right story.

Of course, it doesn't help to find the right story. That's still your, but it would probably make it... Yeah, it would probably help for me to get my next project and get... I want to go behind the camera as fast as possible again. So, yeah. Have you considered like an American production, a German production, European? Is it a desire to make Hollywood films? Yeah. I mean, I would lie if that was not a dream as when I was a kid. I mean, I'm a movie geek.

I love movies more than anything. And it's like, of course, that was a kid's dream always to make once a home film here in Hollywood. But now I see like, it's all about the story, right? The story has to come from it. That's the most important criteria on what movie to make next. And this can be a story that's coming from here. Or I also have to say this was the third movie I did in a similar constellation with a producer,

DP, production designer, or a line producer. we are like what I would say a film my film family and and I also like that I enjoyed very much working at Constellation and it could just as well see to do another movie and that's this wonderful cover Constellation. Very cool Tim we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen? Have you seen anything great recently? Oh yes, absolutely. Well then I would go with the movie of my dear colleague Edward Bear Conclave. Yes, so you must know Edward. Yes, yes, yes. He was very kind. He called me after he got also nominated and so yes that's the one. What did you like about Conclave?

Oh, I have to really say Edward Berger's work, the direction. It was so wonderfully made. In a way also there's similarity because it's also in that Michael Cosmos and how he portrays that world of the Vatican itself. Also that specific viewpoint and how he portrayed that world and the whole visual approach and music also really good. So yes. That's a great recommendation. Tim, congratulations. I really enjoyed September 5. Nice talking to you.

Oh, I'm glad. I'm glad you enjoyed it. And it was great talking to you. Yes. Thank you. Thanks to Tim Felbound. Thanks to Jack Sanders. Thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. Later this week, it's sort of an Amanda special. Sort of. So there's a- Well, so here's the thing. Garbage rom-com and garbage love are different.

I totally agree with this. So garbage rom-com is where I eat, you know? Yes, yes. And garbage love is just a thing that we experience every year around this time as people try to program for Valentine's Day. Garbage love is using a love story with a genre package, basically.

It can be any kind of genre, really, but it needs to be a romance inside of a movie that is otherwise appealing to audiences that like action movies, comedies, like broad comedies, sci-fi, horror, any of those things. So this week, we'll talk about companion. We'll talk about you're cordially invited, which is on Amazon right now.

We'll talk about love me. Maybe we'll talk about love hurts if I see it. Yeah. Anything else? What else is coming out? There's another movie. Oh, Heart Eyes, I saw that. Right. And then we'll make a list.

We'll make a list of 10 great or essential examples. Of garbage love. Of garbage love. You ready? I mean, I really am. Okay. I'm looking forward to it. I might let you drive.

Oh, okay. That's exciting. Great, we'll see you then.