The Big Picture - The 10 Best Movies of 2026 … So Far

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

Sean and Amanda are joined by some Ringer all-stars to share their favorite movies of the year so far, including big blockbusters, small indies, and everything in between. Later, Sean is joined by John Early to discuss his new film, ‘Maddie’s Secret,’ and break down the crazy journey of making this movie, shed light on his cinematic influences, and explain why he wants to prioritize filmmaking in his career going forward. (0:00) Intro (1:00) Chris Ryan’s favorite movie of 2026 (7:01) Joanna Robinson’s favorite movie of 2026 (17:20) Charles Holmes’s favorite movie of 2026 (27:22) Mallory Rubin’s favorite movie of 2026 (44:36) Van Lathan’s favorite movie of 2026 (58:21) Adam Nayman’s favorite movie of 2026 (1:12:12) Yasi Salek’s favorite movie of 2026 (1:26:19) Rob Mahoney’s favorite movie of 2026 (1:37:17) Jack Sanders’s favorite movie of 2026 (1:45:04) Amanda Dobbins’s favorite movie of 2026 (1:52:44) Sean Fennessey’s favorite movie of 2026 (1:58:23) John Early joins the show! Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, Charles Holmes, Mallory Rubin, Van Lathan, Adam Nayman, Yasi Salek, Rob Mahoney, and John Early Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture and Conversation Show about the best movies of the year so far. Today on the show, we are joined by eight ringer friends who share their favorite movies of 2026 unless Rob Mahoney has stolen their pick, in which case they'll roll with their number two choices.

Later in this episode, I'll be joined by John Early, who is the writer-director of Maddie Secret. One of the films picked for this episode, John is a hilarious comedian, actor, and writer, and it turns out a damn good director, too. His feature debut manages to blend Douglas, Sirk, David Wayne, and Lifetime movies into an elegant, heartbreaking quasi-camp stew. John is a great guest, super smart guy.

Most definitely stick around for this conversation. But first, let's go to our favorite movies of the year so far. And first up, who else? CR, Chris Ryan. Okay, CR is here. I am. What's up, man? Not much.

You okay? Are we doing the best movies of 2026 so far now to get it in under the Odyssey Wire because you feel like that's where the movie year turns? No, he has a very complex schedule. scheduling regimen that's, you know, he consults the holy tablets, you know, and the positions of the planets. The Quran. Yeah.

And then he puts it together before we do the movie auction. It just happens that they scheduled the Odyssey for the beginning of, I guess it wouldn't be Q2. What are we calling when it's... Q3. G3. Sure. But what if it's just the halves?

What is that in business parlance? They don't... The second half of the year, I think. Okay, well, we need, they need a catchier jargon. So this is our hydration break in a way. It is, and we do do this every year at roughly the July 1st mark. And it's interesting because July seems like it's going to be pretty action-packed. But the movies have been popping, as you know, CR.

Yeah. So, but you chose a film that came early. Very early. What'd you pick? 28 years later, the Bone Temple, Nia Dacostas follow up to Danny Boyle's reimagining or reboot of the 28 Days Later franchise. And I wanted to bounce a little theory off of you that I've been working on. It was 28 years later,

the little kernel of an idea of where we are now with, like, obsession and backrooms of that, like, wild, breathtaking creativity. I know it wasn't, like, a massive, huge success. I mean, it did well enough to get a second movie out there. But I kind of feel, like, the way that those movies made me feel

of, like, feeling like, this director's really taking me into their own personal world, and that this is an idiosyncratic, enigmatic way of telling these stories, even if there are things that we've seen before. Certainly that's the case for these two movies for the two 28 years later movies.

But I wonder if that, like, we'll go back and we'll look at that as a little signal that something new was coming down the line. I have no idea. I can speak to this film's specific qualities, if you want, which is Nita Costa had a really, really tough assignment, which is to follow up this franchise's originator's

return to the franchise, and he did an amazing job. Your number one movie of 20-8 years later. And she just very wisely chose to do something different. It's a much more static film. It's not as kinetic. I mean, there's certainly like really incredible action sequences in it, but it's much more of a two-hander, really,

between Ray Fines' character and Jack O'Connell's character as like these two poles of how you would deal with such a tragic apocalypse and, you know, what happens to the human soul when it's put in this situation. But it's also about grieving and it's also about loss, which the first one's about too. And, you know,

I just thought it was just such an electrifying way to start the movie year. I thought it would be a good movie to highlight. I didn't really see, like I didn't draw any of the conclusions, the connections that you're doing around horror movies, things maybe like a little bit

of a longer period of time. But this movie is, I thought, was shockingly great. And I loved the transition, the stylistic transition from what Boyle was doing to what Ney to come. Costa was doing. Huge look for Duran Duran. Yeah. Yeah. Quality needle drops. Um, obviously we were

very fines forward on this show. Yes. Love his work. I think he's definitely an Oscar non-worthy performance. Yes. It would be nice if they kind of learned the lessons of Gladys and, and, you know, continued that. Yeah. Was a little bit of a financial letdown. And so because of that, maybe it will be more of a struggle. But there was news that Boyle is coming back and is making the fourth film. Yeah. I mean, I think that if you're, if you're, if you're, saying like Killian Murphy is going to be in another zombie movie

it's really hard to just be like nah we're good you know yeah and Jack O'Connell in this movie is terrifying and funny and hard to watch and then without spoiling it

an incredible set piece of sorts at the end very different than the causeway and the set pieces of 28 years later but memorable very memorable yeah it's a great pick

it's interesting to think about four or five of the films being talked about on today's episode being horror movies, you know, the fact that it really has had centrality in the conversation this year. And, but this is like, how do you guys feel about that

as, you know, keepers of the flame? Pretty happy. I mean, I think that there's probably some people out there that are like, no, it's a genre for freaks and we've always just been denigrated and kept to the back of the video store or whatever next to the porn.

But I think it's... Where you love to be. I think it's a really, exciting time to see all these different filmmakers working with some of the conventions of horror. And I don't really look at it as like elevated or not elevated or prestige or not prestige. I think it's all it's all pretty interesting to me. I completely agree. Movies in general, very democratic medium horror movies, one of the most democratic genres that we have.

I do like, I mean, Nita Dacosta comes by it, honestly. I mean, she made a Candyman movie like seven years ago. It's not like she's not interested in the genre and what it does. It's interesting to see a movie like obsession happen. where, like, that's a hard genre horror movie with, like, violent gross stuff, like beheadings and very upsetting spells and curses and things. Like, it is pure horror.

And for that to cross over is quite fascinating. But this one is a bit more elegant, even though it has a lot of gnarly stuff in it. Yeah, I really hope that they get to make the third one just because I think it'll maybe give a little a shine to the second one. I think it'll, if there is a third one with Killian coming out, I think people might be like, oh, I missed the bone temple because it came out in jam.

January or I was waiting for it to get to Netflix. And I hope that there is a little bit of a revival. I think this movie is definitely due one or it will have one in the years to come. So I'll keep saying against praises. Great picks here. Thanks so much. Okay, Joanna Robinson is here. Hello.

Hi. So you've chosen a film. I have. Was this an easy choice or a hard choice? It was. I was really excited because usually as the narrative on this pod, Rob Mahoney takes my pick. This keeps coming up. This is literally every segment.

It is a theme. He was sitting right next to me when the message came in from Jack, and I was just like, like, and then I was like, oh, check your phone. Jack sent us a message, but I already replied. Good job. Did you get the sense that you were taking something from him? I don't. Just once. I would like someone to take something for Rob Mahoney. We will be drafting later today, so maybe we can.

Don't know that this would have been his number one pick, but like he picked right after me. He took your number one pick, right? Yeah. So, yeah, stuff. I'm interested to talk to you about this movie. We saw this movie together. We did. And what is it?

It's Project Hail Mary. Okay. So this movie, one of the biggest movies of the year. Yeah. The first strike and the movies are back narrative. We are kind of living through here, right? And what usually happens to movies like this, I think, is when they come early, they start to get. Like diminished?

Yeah. A little bit like the flaws start to get elevated a little bit. We've had more time with them. I wouldn't say it has happened in a dramatic way to this movie, but it doesn't feel as shiny and new as some of the other. movies that are being picked even on this episode. So I want to hear your strong defense for the film, what you love about it. Joanna, what an old stale pick you picked from just a few months ago. Do you feel, I mean, do you feel the way that like the shine is off, Project

Tell Mary? I mean, everyone has very short attention spans, but especially people who track box office and what the new shiny thing is in movies. And especially if you have to talk about movies all of the time on the podcast. And I think also maybe a little bit in terms of award sense, because we are all Oscar nerds on this podcast and we all saw Project Helmer, and we're like, huh, so is that our big, is that our sinners for this year? Is that our big, early in the year, blockbuster that turns into Oscar nomination, you know,

king. And we're in the time of the year where it just gets forgotten. Which happens to sinners too. Yeah. So it's just, you know, I enjoyed it. I'm not going to ask you, I'm not going to put you like on the stand. No. Stale and Dusty Choice of Friends.

I'll do it just for the sake of podcasts. I am. But, like, sure. Attention is elsewhere. Yeah. No, and that's fair. I think I loved the movie. I love the book that it's based on, but it still feels like a big win for sort of original

sci-fi, even though it's an adaptation. It's not a not-a-franchise movie, despite what murmurings you might have been hearing about a sequel. I think it's like an incredible standalone. I think it's a movie star story for Ryan Gosling, which is really important. It's a studio story. for Amazon MGM. So in the big pick sense, it is like this interesting business story of the year.

Yeah. But then they canceled an artificial movie because they have a deal with Open A. Oh, yeah. And, you know, and they put out He-Man. Like, I'm not saying everything's great for Amazon MGM. But this was like a big win that they kind of needed. He may what we heard from in this episode, I'll have you know. And not by Sean.

Not from me. No, Van Leithen, right? Yeah. What a chaotic choice. And I really loved the movie. And like, you know, I'm not, I'm here to praise Project Hill Mary not Barry Disclosure Day. But I think that sort of like a lot of people got that like Spielberg feeling from it. It was Lord and Miller's first film that they directed since 2014. This was almost a sort of like maybe you should have let us have solo a Star Wars story moment. So there's like a lot of narrative around it. And then I just, I really loved the movie. I loved seeing it with you and Mallory. I took my nephew. And that was like huge moment. Like I got to take my nephew to the I'm. X theater and he just like loved it. How old is he? He's 15 and he just like loved it and he loves that book. And so the book readers loved it. The people who had never heard the story loved it. I love a puppet. So like that's a that's an awesome story that's going to keep going and going.

Apparently his name escapes me, the puppeteer who also. James Ortiz. Thank you. It sounds like there's going to be a campaign for him in supporting actor, which is fascinating. And I would love for there to, you know, we've heard about this for years and years. And Andy Circus has been put up many times, and it never really cracked through. I do feel like the Academy making a bunch of these changes, getting the stunt category in, like, all the stuff that we've kind of been winging about for 10 years, they're getting their heads around and the body's so big now.

That would be just a great story to get a puppeteer who's doing that kind of voice work. Because, you know, it's only two performances in that movie. That's really it, aside from Sandra Hewler. Yeah, who's fantastic. Yeah, and she's wonderful too. But, yeah, that's a great part of it. I love to hear that about your nephew. And I do think it's completely fair to compare it to Disclosure Day.

I mean, Project Hail Mary doesn't exist without ET, so that's totally a component of the story. And one side is a very hopeful, optimistic, excited version of this story. And one is a little bit less so. One is really a little bit more of like, I think, a beaten down vision of what the world wants us to think is behind the shadow. But they're both trying to end on this like Hope Corps note. And for me personally, at least, Hope Corps was more successful inside of Project Hill and I think it's something that will have that late. I mean, I actually don't really care if it wins Oscars.

I care about the Oscars in general. But like, I care about that sporting actor narrative. But like, I do think it might have a resurgence because they were so smart about the way that they marketed this from San Diego Comic Con last year all the way through the debut. They met a ton of money. I think they really rolled it out very expertly. So I think they know they need to be like quiet for a minute. Yes. And then come back and feel like a sort of remember how much you loved.

Project Hill Mary. Just get the puppet out there. Get Rocky out there. Get Rocky out there. Get him performing it. Yeah. Like I just, it's candy and a great story. That would be fun to see. Gosling, in addition to being a performer as a producer of the movie,

and so he stands to be a Best Picture nominee, assuming the film goes all that way. So I think you're right. I think it's going to go quiet until about September, October. They'll probably have a re-release of some kind. It is a movie theater movie. That's the thing, too. It's a real, like, one of the reasons why it works so well is people going back

multiple times to check it out on the big screen. What else? Anything else you want to say about it that really connect with you? I know you've done multiple podcasts about the film at this point. I have. I've talked to them about it a lot. I don't, do you see it as a movie that you want to show your kids? Is this like a kind of like enduring closet?

I toyed with it this time around. I think it maybe a year or two early for Alice. It's somewhat complex at times and it takes a little while to get to Rocky. Yes. I was thinking about the kind of the first 30 minutes. But the rocky of it all, I think my son would respond to. I think both would, actually. The note that I remember us having when we came out of it was just sort of like, if it had just been a little shorter, a little tighter, it would have been an all-time sort of classic. I still feel that way.

Yeah. I kind of felt like the more time I saw it, I think, two other times in the theater. And every subsequent time I saw it, I expected to feel the runtime more. And I didn't actually at the end of the day. But also I saw it with like full excited audiences. and that's just a huge part of that whole experience as well. Totally. And that I think has been the trickle-down effect of going to the movies for the four months since it first hit, right?

Guess what? Movie theaters are great. Yeah. Seeing movies with people is great. And like the last couple times I've, I mean, certainly last year, because my pick last year was BlackBag. Like, I think I've been talking about films that I watched at home alone. And it just like feels so different to talk about a big, just so fun that we had a big blockbuster movie at the beginning of the year that we've got to, we're staring down the barrel of a bunch this summer. and there's even more waiting for us in the fall.

And that's just very exciting to me. I totally agree. Joe, you're the best. What are you going to come back and talk on the show about? What are you targeting this fall? I don't know. What are you going to have me on for? Last year you called your shot with Hamnet.

Yeah. And that went really well for all. Well, you did great. I started crying. Anything appears to you before to? I don't know. I don't know. What are you anticipating?

Oh, gosh. I don't know. I mean, my mind is so stuck in. sort of the odysies right around the corner and Spider-Man's right around, you know, in that sort of house of our way. So I have yet to migrate to where to the fall, Oscar. Are you hype on Spider-Man? Where's your head at? I'm medium hype. I think Sadie Sink is incredible and everything that I've heard from people who have seen it is that she's fantastic and they're hiding her so much in the trailer. But I'm really excited for this as a potential sort of new chapter of this world that has felt

like it's running on fumes for so long. So this is potentially an experience. Bansion? How do you feel about the mutants entering the NCO? I'm glad you clarified. Which mutant is she? Probably Jean Grey. Sure. And that's who Jennifer Lawrence and no. No. Oh, and then Sophie Turner? Yes. And Fomka Johnson. Yeah. Different than the blue person. Think about the redheads. Yeah. Okay. Um, good luck. Sure. I'm going to see it. Yeah, of course. And then I'm going to go on vacation. Where are you in Spider-Man in general? Pro. I get it. I mean, I, I mean, I really liked the last one when they pointed at each other and then when Andrew Garfield saves

Zendaya but we were thinking of Emma Stone and I thought that was very beautiful. Listen, when it's a team, it's a good character. It's a good character. You know, like it makes sense to me. Am I, do I know anything else? Not really. Not really. Where are you in Clayface? I'm extraordinarily excited. I'm in the midst of attempting to book the first ever Tim Simons, Alex Ross Perry conversation for that episode so that we can talk about gore effects and also the pain of being an actor which is what Clayface is about.

How are you feeling about it? I'm really excited for it. I'm like bizarrely very excited for it. It is actually, it's sort of similar to Andor where it was sort of like, you could have been doing this with superhero movies all along. Like we've been waiting so long for you to just be like, scale it down, tell a different kind of story.

Something weird. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. All right, Joanne. Thank you for being here. Prestige TV podcast, House of Ar. Correct. What else is cooking right now? Occasionally big picture.

Big picture, rewatchables. Yeah. See you soon. See you soon. Bye. Charles Holmes is here. It's been a minute. I'm sorry about that.

What do you been up to? What's going on? I've been in the trenches, the L.A. trenches. It's getting wild out there. We can barely go outside without having a breathing apparatus. Yeah. Yeah. That's been tough.

That's been a struggle out here. You just spent nine minutes extolling the virtues of your skin care regimen to Amanda. And fitness routine, which is germane to the film. We're about to listen. My brother is still in New York and as someone, he does not work out and he helped his 27-year-old friend move from Brooklyn to Harlem. Yeah.

And he's like, I can't move my body. I'm like, dog. We are, I'm 33 right now. I'm like, I can feel if I do not move my body, it's just going to do. We're training for life. And so when the bounce house hit yesterday and I had to just throw children in like kettle balls one by one, I was ready. Were you ready?

No. I did my work. No, you did it. Your daughter came over and said, please, try me. That's not true. I literally did get a turn. Are you doing back stretches? Every day.

Okay. I stretch, but I am not on a fitness register right now, actually. For the first time, these last two years, I have stopped fully and need to figure something else out because I'm headed towards the back nine. You're not at the back nine yet. You're still hailing hearty. You could be performing in the film that you chose at the stage of your life. No.

But for the, for the, for the. So much shows, this was a late stage pick, but The Furious. Yes. So why did you choose this movie? So it's funny, before I chose this when I was talking to Jack, I was originally going to pick Nirvana the band. And to me, even though one is a comedy and one is a martial arts film, both of them share a quality that makes me fall in love with movies all over again.

It's like, this is something that only these creators could do, where it is like, I I think the Furious was budgeted at something like 20 million. And I was reading interviews and the director was like, we are not Tom Cruise. Like leave jumping out of the helicopter to Tom Cruise. We are not fast and furious. We cannot film cars as great as they do. What do we have? And it's martial arts.

It is the judo. It's the wushu. And to me, this is just, I thought I was going to go and think like, this is such a Chad boy experience. And I'm like, I'm watching beautiful men at the height of their, of their sportsmen like just lives doing ballet. It kind of reminds me

everybody's saying like the comp is the raid I'm like this almost reminds me of crouching tiger almost where just the choreography is the story. Yeah the martial artistry is more the thing with this movie

there is a lot of it is a fusion of those two kinds of films though you know because there's no gun fighting in this movie this is not John Wick this is not gunfoo. Yeah it is hand to hand but the choreography

in the fight sequences is astonishing. I mean, it is really, really, but the thing about that is sometimes you can talk about this, and I think it can be alienating where if you're not a martial arts movie expert or you don't know the history of that stuff, that sometimes it can be like a little boring or maybe you're thinking of feudal Japan or something,

but this is a contemporarily set story. And it's also kind of funny in a way that Nirvana is funny too. I mean, the way that it's choreographed is you're meant to be like jumping out of your seat and like chortling to yourself and applauding. There is a scene and it's been in the trailers where they're in a cage. And there's no way in real life

a fight would work like this. But our main character is quite literally like building a skyscraper of beating guys and he's like stepping one over another. And instead of having like a gun, he's just killing people with like a hammer. It's just the lizard part of your brain is like monkey beats another monkey with hammer.

Cool. I'm just like, this is crazy. It's physical comedy. Yes. Which there is, there's, you know, there's a line from, you know, like three stooges and then musical comedy and then people fighting each other, which is, what can you use your body to do that is outrageous and unexpected and like not really true to life? Not true to, but exhilarating.

It was exhilarating and even like, it should not make sense that there is at the, the greatest fight I've seen in decades happens at the end. It's a five-way fight. So great. You almost stand out of your seat when they split the frame in five. I said the same thing on the show. That part is just so awesome. But to get there, you're just like, there's this big hulking mass of a guy who basically

wakes up and he's not a zombie. But it's like he just like runs to the fight and you're like, what is happening? Yes. And then you just have like five guys who all have like grudges. But the movie has also done this phenomenal thing. thing where it's like, this is not taken where the whole thing is, we are going all the way to rescue the daughter. Halfway through their movie, they rescue the daughter, they rescue the captured kids, and you're

like, what's the rest of this movie? And they're like, oh, no, they solve the problem. I don't actually give a fuck about these kids anymore. I just want to see people beat each other. Yeah, it's a set piece machine. It's also like, it does tip into Dada surrealist. Yeah. Like, it's not even really important what's happening with what matters is the poetry of

violence that is on screen and that character that Charles is describing is like a bullet-headed gigantic man who has is like axed to death and then comes back to life in alarming fashion and then like biochemically knows which path to follow to find the fight that is happening I was laughing the entire in a police station at the end of the movie yeah this is a lot of fun I I'm I'm not super familiar with um was G. Miao, the one, the silent star of the film, who's the father of the little girl. So neither was I.

I was, I'm going to butcher their names, so I'm not going to even. But like, the other two stars, one of them is one of the greatest martial arts, artist. He's been in the rate. Yeah, Joe Taslim. Yes. When you see him in a movie, you're like, this guy is the devil. And to defeat him, these characters are just going to have to.

Oh, oh, you're referring to, um, uh, he was the guy with the elbow. Yeah, yeah. Whenever you see him in a martial arts movie, you're like, oh my gosh. This movie puts the death of Robin Hood to shame and it comes to bow and arrow battle. I will say that for sure. This movie, I was enchanted. And it's also funny where a lot of times, because I was like, when I left the movie, I can tell it had an oppression on me. Where it's like, usually I'm like, all right, I'm driving home.

I'm going to listen to like a podcast. I'm going to listen to an album. And I drove home in silence because I just wanted to fake. I was just like, what did I just watch? Like, I don't want, I kind of want to just bask in this memory of being like, oh, we can still do cool shit in movies. We can still do stuff where I'm like, I'm still kind of scratching my head. I'm like, I can watch all these videos of how they did this stuff. And still, there is a, there is a magic of cinema of being, hey, some guys can just like dance and the dialogue is them fighting and beating the shit out of each other.

and what more did you want at the age of 33? Did you see it with a full crowd? So I... Yeah, I wanted to do a movie theater check-in for you. So unfortunately, I watched it at one of my least favorite movie theaters, Regal, Passio. Okay. Tough. Passio?

Passio? How do you say? Paseo? I'm doing Paseo. Paseo? You know? I don't know. And they have a large Kim Crawford port when you need it. That is not my favorite because I will say I also saw what's...

What's the Catholic movie where they're all voting? Conclave. Concliffe. I got there with you. Where they're all. It's beautiful. I saw the reason I can never really go to that movie theater again is I saw Conclave when Trump was elected the second time and I went into the movie not knowing what was going to happen.

And I left and I checked my phone and I was like, oh, the world. Because like I walked out. And it was just pure silence. No one was talking. Okay. Everybody. So you have a negative association with that. I have a negative association.

And when I... And they have the new... They have like the school desk chairs now. Yeah. I don't really under... I feel contained. But what I was saying... I like all movie theaters.

Sure. This was a Thursday at 4 p.m. And while it was not packed, I did... Like, I was doing a little bit of like a sociological, like, study. Because it was grown men who were like in their 40s there. But all of them had brought. their partners. Like, there was just, it was like a date night, but it was also 4 p.m.

And these men were like, it's great. 40s and 50s. And I was like, this is a. This is a. On a Thursday. On a Thursday. It never for one second crossed my mind to bring Eileen to go see the Furious, not for a single second.

I can't imagine a thing she'd enjoy less. I will say the partners, the women left the movie theater not seeming that enthused. And all the men were just like, bro. Yeah. Yeah. People standing and cheering in the middle of my movie theater. It was amazing. I yelp during the five, when they split it in five dollars like, I was almost about to just like stand up and just keep standing. Yeah. So sorry that I, we had boy corner. Listen, that's good. It's good when people make the highest version of their art instead of trying to do stuff in the middle that pleases nobody.

Here's the thing. I was trying to do the drama. Rob Mahoney picked it. Oh, me too. But, you know, Mahoney gets me every time. The drama and the furious, I will just say, ending on this would be a great double feature. Love it. Like, to me, these are both speaking to the same things. Just the fight of the human spirit and then the fight of hammers drilling into foreheads. Charles Holmes. That's beautiful.

Well done. Thank you. Hell yeah. Thank you. Mallory Rubin is here. Hello. Hey, Mal. Hi, guys.

Great to be here with you. When were you last with us? Well, I mean, I know the answer, unfortunately. Oh, Star Wars draft. Yeah. I've known many sleepless nights since. It was the Star Wars draft. When I fall asleep at night, I see the Skywalker family tree.

It's the last thing I see before I doze off, and the first thing that popped into my brain when I wake up in the morning. Yeah. But in your version, the little tiny things are part of the tree, right? The droids are on the family tree. No, no. I know what the droids are. What are the other ones? What was the real hail area that you did?

Yeah, there we go. Yeah. Well, I received a lot of feedback from people in the Internet saying that I was right and you were wrong. Can I also say that I received a, like, of feedback from people who thought that you were me. That is the tale is all of the same time. Yeah, that's sure. That is the tale is oldest time for us.

Yeah. Not all women. Which is amazing because we, exactly. I was going to say, we do both have brown hair, but we could not possibly have more different. Our interest and tastes are so different. Yeah. So it's bizarre.

And you have two of the most important gals in the world to me, you know? That's beautiful. I mean, thank you for saying that. What an honor. Okay. What an honor. I miss you guys. We miss you.

Do you want to lead with your complaints? about the procedural aspects of this episode? Yes. Go ahead. Floor is yours. I have some complaints about the procedural aspects of the draft, which I think have already aired when this airs, but we'll be recording after, so I'll save some of my ammo. No, I'm kidding. I can't wait.

Where am I? We'll find out. You're always very normal in drafts. I've noticed that about you. Yeah, I have three thoughts today. Calm, thoughtful. You roll with the punches? I'm excited for the draft.

I actually do think that I've been better served in general by a more mellow approach to the draft. which is what I will be bringing today. Oh, I'm sure. I fully expect to encounter that momentarily. So for this, I saw the text. And how did you pick it? Sean hit up the group chat, you know, and this is an annual tradition.

I was in Sweden when you hit up the group chat. Were you actually in Sweden or were you on one of your 14 layovers? That's a good question. I think I was in Sweden when the group chat came and all of the many layovers and the many hours of travel. when I was also not responding to texts came later and before. By the time I was able to catch up on the group chat, the exchange, the two movies that I would have really loved to pick, Project Hail Mary and 28 years later, had been selected by two of my dearest friends and colleagues and now sworn enemies,

Joanna and Chris. And then I thought, okay, we got a couple weeks. Sean is such a thoughtful planner, always ahead. Before we record, Amanda, a little feedback. Feedback from Amanda. Surprising of the head, shaking of, not a nodding, actually, shaking of the head. I thought, you know what? Thoughtful planner should be the title of my memoir.

That would be good. Did you consider that for your newsletter? Thoughtful plan? No, I'm saving that. Backpocketing that one for down the road. In my 70s, you know, it's going to be. Will you still be potting and- My author photo?

Crafting newsletters when you're 70. Do you think? I hope so. Okay. Wow. I'll be on a beach. What about you? Same.

I'll be on my own island. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. I love the spirit of creativity. I love creating. Me too. I love sharing my thoughts.

I like the spirit of creativity and I will be engaging with that by reading other people's books while I sit on a beach. Amen. I thought maybe by the time we pod, I will have seen sheep detectives, a movie that I hear is wonderful and feel sure I'll love. Didn't get a chance. Then I was like, you know what? We're recording this a week a couple days after Toy Story 5 comes out. Amazing. Conflicts last week couldn't make the screenings and I was out of town.

This is just a night. You told me all the way up until the last minute last night. I texted you 10 minutes before a toy story showing this weekend in the city I was in, which was not Los Angeles. And I was like, I might go. I was there for a dear friend's birthday celebration. So that would have been irresponsible. And I did not ultimately do it.

I am glad that you picked the experience of friendship rather than the movie, quote, unquote, about friendship. I did actually end up sitting in the hotel room for those exact same hours doing other work for what it's worth. But then later I communed with other people. And it was honestly wonderful. It was wonderful. Listen, then you got the lesson of Toy Story 5 without having to update your app. I haven't gotten to see it. Yeah, you can't wait.

So I have chosen Disclosure Day, a movie that I thought would be worth including in the podcast and discussing. But I do think it's interesting to talk about, but I can't say, like, to quote Chase Serrano with my chest, is actually my pick for best movie of the year so far. But I do think it is a movie that has given us something that is one of the best things that movie fans can have, which is debate and discussion with each other. And probably more crucially of all, an excuse to dive back into a creator's canon. So one of the things that I just loved about the run-up to Disclosure Day was not that I need the excuse to do this, not that any of us do, but the excuse the opportunity to revisit some of my favorite movies of all time. Right. I was like, time to boot up close encounters, which I did. Time to boot up BT, which I did.

Time to boot up War of the Worlds. Not a movie I particularly enjoy, but I still did it. I was like, dare I rewatch Crystal Skull? And then I was like, you did this a couple years ago. Chill. Yeah. chill. But that's a great, I don't actually think that that ultimately helped my reception of Disclosure Day, candidly. But it was a wonderful thing to just like engage in the discourse,

your favorite thing online discourse, Amanda, with a fellow centiphyles about where this movie fits and stands, not only in Spielberg's filmography overall, but like specifically the UFO films and the opportunity to really think about how much of that area of interest, which has span decades of his creative life is like the aliens come to us here on earth. It was just an interesting moment to reflect on his relationship to that type of storytelling. I thought the movie was very propulsive and entertaining and I also had a lot of notes on it. But it's been really fun to like to listen to you guys talk about it, to pot about it with Joe, to see it with my husband and talk about it with him. And just to like, when I was out of town this weekend with friends, it was a

big topic of conversation with people. And so that's just been kind of like a neat experience as a movie fan and so that is my pick because I could not pick those other movies. I appreciate you picking it here. We had such an interesting experience. We saw the movie together. We did. The three of us and Joanna. And there was an unusual series of scrums of people exchanging notes after the screening

that we went to, which is pretty rare, I would say, at these screenings. You sometimes get like maybe one polite, two-minute conversation. But people are like, no, let's do a 15-minute, 20-minute breakdown of how we really felt about this. The podcasts were happening in real time. They were. Yeah. And you could tell right away, this is going to be really divisive this movie. Because there were some people who walked out.

I remember looking at one very prominent journalist who went into the bathroom. He was just like, nope. Correct. And that was like, am I crazy? No. Yeah. And so it has been funny that it has gone into the blender. I think as often with these things, like heavily marketed movies from huge famous filmmakers.

If they don't land certain parts of the story, people get very, very, very, reactive and there's been a lot of really negative reaction of the movie. That's probably going to subside over time. A lot of Spielberg movies also tend to get reclaimed pretty quickly. You mentioned not loving war of the worlds, which is a movie that I really loved at the time, though I do think it also similarly has a lot of script flaws. Also a David Kep's script. I think a lot of times what happens with Spielberg movies, and we talked about this in the 21st century conversation is, his personal kind of philosophy and perspective, plus the filmmaking chops, tends to outlive the story annoyed me components of a lot of his movies, especially the second half of his film career

movies. Crystal Skull is one of the precious few that I'm like, no. Like, I just can't get on board with this. Wild film. Yeah, very weird movie. But, um. Funtery wash. Yeah, I don't know. I've, I've only seen it one time, though. You've seen it a second time. I've seen it twice. well. Yeah. And I mean, I, it confirmed my experience and in terms of, I think, the filmmaking aspects of it are electrifying and I learned more about the old alien, you know, and, and continued to think what I thought about that alien. Jim Alien? No, it's like, it's Alien 17, right? Jimmy. In vivo 17? Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. He got the name of my TV. You've really absorbed all of the canon from uh where are you at an alien hugo i'm pro alien in general i enjoyed your discussion

with each other about whether your entire creative and professional and personal lives would halt in full if uh aliens were revealed to us i believe aliens are out there it feels impossible that they're not okay um i enjoy the genre you think they're here like on earth currently hmm good question what would you do what would you do if disclosure day happened so that was obviously i know this is a podcast where we're speaking supposed to pick movies that we really liked. Yeah. Talk about what I'd be like.

Yeah, yeah. You know, the conclusion of the film was like where it really lost me, honestly. The idea that like, first of all, I think the local news broadcast news element, but also the idea of the public response. I understand the intention behind it. Who should? I hope they're starting that supporting actress campaign. Let's go.

And, you know, that was another. I'm glad you said that because that was another reason I thought this was a worthy selection for inclusion in this podcast is because so many of the performances were really wonderful. Like the Emily Blunt performance in this movie. is amazing. Just amazing. I hope it stands the test of time. And I think it is undeniably one of the best and most compelling performances of the year so far. So that's really fun. I liked watching Colin Firth bite down on the mouth guard. For me, that was compelling. Not sure if you had any thoughts on that. Do you prefer Colin Firth with the brown eyes or the blue eyes? I like him. You know, I'll quote Mark Darcy and say, just the way. Yeah. You know that that was actually, do you know that that was? was a literal reading at my wedding, that speech.

I would expect nothing less from you and Zach, two of the purest souls. That was one of my choices. Yeah. Great stuff. I mean, Bridget Jones is a sacred text. It's a sacred text, obviously. 25 years this year, I believe. That's a film?

Is that possibly true? The film? I think it's 2001. Yeah, books earlier. Yeah. We're fucking old. We're old. I would like to think that aliens that it would be pleasant.

Like, I like E.T. I loved Project Hail Mary, my actual favorite of the year. So far, Rocky, the goat. But, you know, Joe and I talked about this in the pot. It's like we covered, you know, not so long ago. Three-body Problem, the Netflix adaptation of a really hallowed fantasy trilogy. Spoiler, it is. And the thesis on which those books exist is a much darker read on the inevitability of a certain type of conflict.

If extraterrestrial life not only existed, but if we were capable, if species and races, from different areas of the universe were capable of interacting with each other. So part of what I love about the genre in general is the fact that there are so many different ways of engaging with what an interaction and encounter like this might look like. I thought that especially because so much

of the Disclosure Day run-up was really secretive and guarded that there would be maybe a different degree of like the thesis of what this might mean other than the aliens are here and maybe it's okay. And the problem is actually the people, which I think has been

present in the text before. But, you know, propulsive action. It's an entertaining two and a half hours in the theater. I saw it with the gen pop the second time around. The theater was loving every second of it. People were whooping. They stood and clapped at the end. Did you see the Fableman's?

I did. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. At home. Not in the theater. But I watched it at home. Yeah. The one thing that I have been, because I've seen, obviously, all the discourse about

Disclosure Day as well. Naturally, in fact, it's come directly in my direction a few times. But, you know, the movie is certainly marketed as a movie about aliens and what if aliens came to Earth. That's not really what the movie's about, right? Like, the movie is very obviously about, like, what happens to you when you're a little kid and why do you become the way that you are and how it haunts you and then maybe solves you or figures you or helps you find a clearer path to your life? Yeah. That's a very heady concept. that's not a very one it's not marketable at all too it's the kind of thing that you say to somebody who hates a movie and they're like fuck off which i understand um i mean it's a little bit about aliens though

yeah it is it is sort of and they roll one out on a on a modified wheelchair at the end it is certainly about aliens it's it's about like our culture's interest in the idea of aliens you know we don't spend a lot of time with those aliens in this film we don't really it's not like et t is about There's like 15 minutes of footage of them just being like, and here's another thing about aliens. And they upload it to the server. Jackie Gleason and Dick Nixon in the footage, you know, they're looking at stuff. Yeah. Dick Nixon, you're a big fan? I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that.

No, no, I'm not. Are you a Nixon guy, big Nixon guy? No. No, I'm not a fan of his policies or the way that he ran his administration. It seemed like kind of a mean-spirited guy. Brave take. A little hateful at times. Really resentful.

I thought maybe a bigot? Yeah. Seem like based on some of the secret recordings. One thing I don't understand, recording yourself. I've never understood this. I mean, this is also a note I have for basically every single spy or CIA plot when they're like, well, here's the file that shows all of this. Why are, if you're a nefarious government entity, don't keep files. Yeah.

Just don't. Yeah. Or don't write it down. we go. This is always one of the things like what if they recorded and committed to the record that someone can find, but also what did they name their shadowy organization? You know, putting the villainous intention right there in the name. This is another recurring note. Ward X. What does it stand for? I give you $100 right now. If you can do it, I don't have $100 on me, but I can bet about you.

Waved is the first word. Yeah. I just to be clear, I'm not going to give you $100, but. Do you carry around $100 bills? No, and he doesn't anymore. No. And he doesn't anymore. No. And he He stopped carrying cash. Let's see how much money I have right now. This is how we're going to wrap this segment. I do feel like if we could introduce like a throwing money down on the table. That would be good. Element to that that could be interesting.

Let's count it right now. You don't need real money. You could use like imperial credits like a Star Wars. For a while, until Juliet learned his name, I was offering. This is, I thought you said you were done with this. What is this? Okay. Well, this is his dad's shit.

120, 140, 160, 180. Oh, there we go. There we go. See? What is that for? Are you like tipping the valet with a crisp Punch? This is Long Island. I'm a man of many interests. Do you carry that around because you're like future-proofing? You believe the apocalypse will come and you never know when you're going to get in a jam. Venmo won't work. You'll need a cold hard

cash. You never know when you're going to get in a jam. How often are you going to the ATM? Not often. Because I'm not often in a jam. Okay. I'm trying to live a jam-free life. Okay. But every once in a while? You have not been lured into a Hansel and Gretel fairy tale-esque cottage in the woods as an impressionable 10-year-old and looked into the eyes of a CGI, deer, fox, cardinal, raccoon? Hasn't happened to you. Wouldn't happen to you.

And yet I feel such a kinship with those characters who were lord in that way. Part of the reason why I liked this movie. You do often feel kinship with the chosen ones. So, yeah. Mal, any closing thoughts here? This was deranged segment of this episode. You know, I'm looking forward to catching up on more movies.

Let me say that. Yeah. It feels like there's a lot of good cinema this year that I haven't seen. Do you think that if I had seen sheep detectives or Toy Story 5 I would have picked one of those? I do.

They're both very much in your zone. Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing those movies. Let's just almost like pretend I have seen and picked one of those. But I enjoyed discussing Disclosure Day with you and I look forward to the continuing discourse on this podcast. You know, I mentioned this to you,

but one of my favorite experiences recently was looking back in the Big Pick archives because Joanna and I have been doing a Christopher Nolan rewatch heading into The Odyssey. We're doing Tenet, obviously, a movie that you two are engaging within the present timeline as well. But as I told Sean, I looked back into the archives and you guys podcasted about it five times in the year 2020. Yeah. There was not a lot going on. And we were

stuck in our houses and or in the car where we watched it in San Diego. It was wonderful. Wonderful to remember those times. How many times do you think you'll podcast about Disclosure Day before it's all said and done? Well, this is three. Something to think about. So it will be done for a while. Yeah. Okay. We will be podcasting about Tenet once more. I know. In the great city of Toronto. in July. And we will be seeing the movie on a big screen for the first time, I believe. Oh, that's exciting. Well, since the... Since the drive-thru? The drive-thru was a large screen. It was a big screen, but it wasn't a movie theater experience, I guess, is the way to put it.

Anyhow, Mallory Rubin, thank you. For the best. Van Lathan is here. What's up? What's up, friends? How are you? I'm fantastic. How are you guys doing it? Very good. Thank you for being here. Always. So, I know what you chose. Yeah. It's a film that Amanda hasn't seen.

That's true. It's a film that means something to us. Yeah, especially. What movie did you pick? Masters of the Universe. Is this truly, deeply, madly, your favorite movie of 2026? No. Okay.

How did you happen to wind up on this podcast talking about Masters of the Universe then? Rob chose the drama. Yeah. You also would have picked the drama? I would have picked the drama. Me too. Yeah. So I'll say this.

And this is no shot to Masters of the Universe. Literally five people have said I wanted to pick the drama. That's so funny. So just watching the drama like at the Grove with a full audience was phenomenal. This is going to sound so stupid to so many people. But like when In Game came out, everybody at the theater was ooh and an awe and all of that stuff. The drama had nobody flying around, no capes, no powers. And people were just like that.

People were just like that. They were buzzing. Yeah. buzzing, this amazing communal experience. A lot of people had a lot of political things to say about the movie and some of the subject matter that it dealt with. I at no point bristled at anything. I fell into the story.

It was awesome. It was by far my favorite movie of the year. But if I couldn't have it, this next one is right there. It was great for me to sit down. Not only relive my childhood, but kudos to the, for the, to the filmmakers of the, of of the Master's Universe for attempting, attempting to inject some contemporary storytelling into this thing that I watched when I was a kid. They tried to take care of it.

They did not do a perfect job. A lot of people saw the movie didn't like it. I actually really enjoyed it. And at the end, it gets to the point to where Adam becomes he, man, and I was captivated by that. We've been talking a lot about toys today. Yeah. You know, just in our own lives.

kids' lives. He men toys were important to you? He man. Because there's only one He Man. There's only one He Man. But then the other Masters of the Universe were also. Are they all masters? They don't really explain it.

I don't think they're the Masters of the Universe. I think that He Man. Well, this is complicated, you know. This was a toy line that was refashioned out of the spare parts of a lot of different

kinds of stories. Yes. I've listened to Griffin Newman. Explaned this. Barbarian stories, sword and sandal stuff. A lot of high fantasy plus high tech that eventually became an animated series that I assume you watched with as much

religion and fervor as I did. And there's not a lot of lore explication on the animated series. I feel like that stuff came with later iterations of it. I think when we were looking at it, it was, like even when Shira came along,

It was like, oh, you know, Skeletor used to be a member of the hoard. And like, he's not in the hoard anymore. He left. Sheer was kidnapped. And I'm like, oh, there's more? There's more story? It's like a bigger thing. A bigger world.

A bigger world. But it's also multiple comic books telling different strands of the story that don't agree with each other. Like, it's kind of a mess. It's primarily a toy company's idea of a story instead of a creative single person, like, Jack Kirby and Stanley being like, this is. They did it backwards. This character. started with the toys. Exactly.

But also, they did it backwards, but they were also doing it and undoing it. Because the toys came with a comic line like he's talking about, like a mini comic, right? But that mini comic was sometimes a little bit too straightforward and violent for what worked for the cartoon. Right. So, like, sometimes they would be like, okay, well, this is on the mini comic with the toys, but the cartoon that were using to sell the toys, well, we can't do that on there. Like Skeletor as first was this like really mean, evil guy. And then midway through the first season, they go, this is better if he's a little bit funny.

He's kind of funny. He's kind of like a Paul Lind, like fabulous, you know, goof. Yeah. And so you're 8, 10? Younger for me, but yeah. Oh, you're like four. I'm like four. So you're not aware of any of this.

You're just taking what you're being given. It's on a TV. It's the lizard brain like that muscle man looks cool. Right. It's like on TV and it's in. Toys R Us, wrist and peace to my giraffe. The same for me. Excuse me.

Where do you think I got my tomicatchez? Okay. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. So it's there and it's there. And then that's it. All the other stuff, like, I wasn't aware of it. But like...

The movie, like, kind of does... It does scratch that boyhood feeling. I felt... I mean, I think the movie is very flawed. Yeah. And, like, kind of a mess at times. But it weirdly takes chances with a property as stupid as he man. Right.

And makes, does a couple of fun things. things and and when he lifts the sword. Yeah. And says I have the power. You're moved. It got me, man. I know it got you. We saw you right after the screening.

Yeah, it does. And like, obviously there's such a large part of it that has to do with childhood. But honestly, it's also something that's so earnest you can like mess it up. Like watching him access this ancient power and his whole thing changed now that he's the champion. He has powers to go back out and stamp out all of these people that are trying to take over his kingdom. but it's not enough.

It's not enough because he led a contemporary life where Mike doesn't make right. So he's got to do it a different way. They tried to do that in the movie. They got there enough for me, but once again, you guys hear from me all the time on here. I get if you didn't like it.

It's not fucking... You gotta stop reading the Reddit page. No, I love them. Don't. Just you live in your truth, which is that this meant something to you, and I haven't seen it, and we're here together sharing our feelings,

and they don't matter. I'm going to cap for the Reddit page. I'm a K for the Reddit page. You guys have the best Reddit page because at least on your Reddit page, there is some discussion about movies. Like, if you go to the higher learning Reddit page, it's like, man, it's getting fat.

No, you're not. Like, I'm a losing weight. But at least on you guys' Reddit page, there's some discussion of the movies. Now, no Reddit page is, like, without its toxicity. I get it. But what I'm saying is, I don't want people,

I want people to understand wherever, even when I'm on the Midnight Boys, I want people to know that like, I go to these movies to enjoy them and celebrate the stuff. Sometimes the movies are so bad that you can't do that. But that's rare for me.

And also, the higher you aim, the further you have to fall. True. So there are some films I go to that are supposed to be really important movies and I'm like, you, that's a high degree of difficulty. like I just don't get it.

Right. But if we kicking shit and flying, you should be able to make that be good. With this movie, He Man works. Adam doesn't work as well as He Man does. Skeletor, unfortunately, guys, really works. And Jared, that was fine, his performance. Like, unfortunately, Skeletor. What was that movie he was in with Denzel?

That was the little things. Yeah. He played a serial killer who he was unable to capture. It was a very bad film. He was nominated for a Golden Globe for his performance. Yeah. So that's why when people still thought he was kind of like a serious actor that every performance had to be like taking note.

Word worthy. Yeah. But in this, if Skeletor works, the movie will probably work. But I get why people didn't fuck with it. If the drama is not my favorite movie of the year, this is my favorite movie at the year. And there's a lot of things going on. I have been like evangelizing the movie. Like retweeting stuff.

Go see He, man. Nobody went. But, yeah, it bricked incredibly hard. Oh, it's a brick. Yeah. It's a brick. Number one, the reason why this movie bricked to me is this old. This is a movie that like...

This is for people in their 40s. That's what it is. Right. And it probably should have been made in like 2015 or 2010. 2012. Yeah. Early in the superhero, we're dredging up this old IP stuff. Right.

So it should be... When we were in our 30s. When we were in our 30s, we could have been excited about it. Our 20s. Yeah. Maybe. But like now these kids don't give a fuck anymore. Stay with us.

I watching the movie, I was like, yo, I'm 40 fucking three. I'm 43. I'm looking at this shit. I'm like, yo, this shit was. This is 40 years ago I fell in love with this character. My mom goes to see the movie and my mom calls me. She's like, I know you saw He-Man. Remember?

I know you love He-Man. You see He-Man? They did all the stuff. He did. He did. He did. He did the whole thing. Remember that?

He-Man, I loved it. But my mom loved it because it reminded her. of me watching it. Yeah. You know? So that plus the fact that it made me appreciate Barbie a little bit more. Obviously Barbie has this

generational kind of hold over culture. But Barbie is a well-made and crazy... It is totally a credit to Barbie, the movie, and how hard it is to do what credit did with that movie. Yeah.

And like a master filmmaker taking that property and making it this treatise on like who you are what you are and what it means to be that. And that was dope. He man did not do that.

But he, I said this on our episode, but I mean, the way that Barbie is very much about femininity and being a woman in contemporary times, this movie is trying to be

the same thing for being a man. It's trying to explore masculinity, toxic masculinity, sort of like the role of politesse in culture and what is safe and what is not safe to say. And like,

it's a cool idea and it never really works. Right. I will say, I could, there are parts in the movie. Like there's one stretch in the film

where Skeletor comes into He-Man's world. And it is kooky, kind of scary, hilarious, and incredibly effective. And you could see

in places where you can see the seams of the movie a little bit. You can see a couple of the rewrites. What this could have been. What it could have been if the film

would have let it be that because like that part legitimately is the thing that made you go oh my god i had the same feeling like we're like we're having fun like this movie is actually fun and then it ends on a high and you're good but i had a lot of fun in he man we're doing this now the fun is still around the corner which is interesting so why are we doing it now just you know the second person ask because this is in the the scriptures of the big picture it is written that at the end of June, really right around the July 4th holiday, the middle

of the year, we do the first half. It's mathematical. Oh, I see. Yeah, it's not because we're trying to get something in before the Odyssey or Spider-Man or anything like that. It's just, this is the midway point. We do it at the midway point. We'll do it again at the end of the year. And by the way, not just I should say, not just the drama was taken.

Like, some other movies that I saw were taken as well. Go ahead, speak on it. They obsession. Yep, I took that. So, I don't like movies like that. I normally, Do not. Same.

That was fucking brilliant, man. I agree. And that's why I picked it and that's what I'm going to. What I want to talk about is just like how it has. Broken containment. Yes. Yeah. And like an open a genre to people who are very hardcore not a part of that genre.

So the lady from the movie is from Superman and Lewis. She is. And so I see her and I'm like, I watched her. I watched religious. Superman and Lois is actually a really underrated Superman story. It's like actually does a lot of cool things. Superman and Lois moved back to Smallville and they're raising kids. It's really interesting in the way to go about it.

But, you know, see her in it. She's blowing up. She's amazing in the movie. And by the way, I didn't know that the movie had a supernatural pull to it before I saw it. I didn't know that there was actually a whole wishing thing. Kind of remind you of, was the Stephen King Joint where the guy, a thinner. Yeah. Where he, where he.

Also a monkey's pot. Yeah. Right. So like the... Man who is cursed with thinness. Cursed with thinness. And at first it's like, oh my God, I'm losing weight. And then after a while, I'm losing weight.

But like, I thought that movie was phenomenal. Totally perfect moves at an incredible speed. And like for... I don't know as much about the director as everyone else, but like on some Jordan Peel type level... I'm babbling. But when I first saw Get Out, everyone talked about the script. the script was phenomenal.

I was like, as a director, though, did you see how amazing he could craft tension? And obsession does the same thing. I feel very similarly about, we'll talk about it when we talk about obsession, but we're going to jump off at that point because we're going to talk about obsession next. Van, thank you.

Thank you for reppping for He-Man. Yeah, we got the power. And we got a sequel. We're not over yet. He-Man, Shira, Orko, Eternia. We all coming back, bitch. They got every time you order, every time you order something from Amazon Prime,

you make it the next Keyman movie. We're not stopping. Thank you, man. Okay, the Mean Pod author, Adam Neiman is here. The author of a forthcoming new book, Adam, before we hear about your favorite film of 2026 so far, you want to plug the news? Yeah, it's a book about cinematic history and relationships

of fathers and daughters. The title, which I've read, is not going to be great for SEO, because it is a misspelling. It's fine. It's dead. Dauter. Yes, I see I was dead. You know, Doteur theory.

I figure a book about fathers and daughters in film should be titled with a dad joke. Who knows if the book will, you know, end up with that title. Who knows all the movies that will be in it because they will keep making movies for the next year or so. But certainly, you know, movies like After Son or Trap or Tony Erdman or even one battle after another, you know, these are relevant contemporary films on this title. And I'm really trying to deal satirically and a little critically with that idea of the girl dad, mostly because I hate how easy it is to perform that. And I try. As a father of daughters, I hate the as a father of daughters thing because I recognize where it comes from. So this will be a fun book, starring, you know, a long history of movie movie Girl Dad, some of whom are sociopaths.

Yeah. A lot of whom are sociopaths, in fact. It's true. congratulations to you on the news and I'm excited about the sequel, Boy Mom, that you'll be working on. How's that going? I would say there are three movies in the in the canon. Let's see, we've got Dune. Yeah. Dune part two. Anyone? Psycho. Psycho, sure. Oh, yeah. Big. Is he, he has a mom? He's got, I mean, I sure he has a mom. Sure. He certainly does have a mother. He has two mommies when you consider Elizabeth Perkins. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, It's exciting for all of us.

Okay, Adam. Let's talk about your favorite film of the year. This is for a film we have not yet discussed on the show. Yeah. But the guest of this episode will actually be talking about their film as well. So what did you choose? Yes, it's a three-hour Latvian film shot from the point of view of a pigeon with rabies. No, you know, it's Maddie's secret by John Erlin, which I think is the film.

It's the film I wanted to talk about the most and not because it was left. over. You know, I'm low on the pecking order. So the email and they're like, well, these seven films are being discussed already. And that's fine. Did that happen to you? Yeah, it's okay. You know, I think I'm seventh chair. You know, there's the third chair debate with the great American playwright Tracy Letts, a great playwright. And the great American non-playwright, Chris Ryan. I'm just, I'm resigned to like seventh, seventh chair. But this would have been my first pick, which is John Early's Maddie's secret. So what a what is it? Why did you choose it? Why? Why did this movie move you?

Because it's very funny. True. You know, noted for my own, you know, you know, a sense of humor. No, it's a beautiful film. And it's a movie that's created some interesting discourse recently. I say this respectfully around the idea whether it's a parody, right? Because I think parody and satire and pastiche are often interchangeable, which is, you know,

a function of discourse. And Camp is a hard thing to talk about, you know, can Camp be intentional? Is there such a thing as intentional? Camp does camp kind of have to be hapless or helpless? And John is such a smart filmmaker. I mean, I don't know if people, I'm sure people on the pot are familiar with John Early's work. He's in that Taylor Swift video, you know, I think that he was seen for the most. But, you know, a stalwart, sketch comedian with his comedy life partner, Kate Burland, really good actor. He's on Search Party. And as it turns out, a pretty brilliant filmmaker. This is the only movie I've ever

seen to crossbreed Todd Haynes and David Wayne together. I think it was for ringer. I said something last fall at Tiff, like Wet Hot May December, which I think is like the most succinct way of describing what he's doing here. But it's a, but it's a movie that spiritually resides kind of in like the after school specials, or not even after school specials, like lifetime movies or TV movies of the 80s. There's a very particular film, which I still haven't seen called Kate Secret, which is a kind of, you know, diary of a bulimic housewife or an anorexic housewife film. And the real balancing act of this movie, which while it's funny, I find quite serious, Maddie's secret, is how do you conjure up that kind of movie,

that kind of like social problem movie or that sort of, you know, psychological problem movie, talk about how it tends to sensationalize and flatten these issues, show that you kind of love that sort of movie and that for John early at least, it's quite formative, and sort of just make it, like make it pretty straight ahead while kind of making fun of it at the same time. that's very tricky. And on top of that, John plays the lead part in a drag performance, which he says is inspired by actors like Divine, who, you know, acted for John Waters.

I think that, you know, John Waters is part of this movie's DNA. Certainly, because John Rely has said it so many times, a movie like Showgirls is part of this movie's DNA. So I'm just automatically inclined to be like, oh, this movie is inspired by Showgirls and Paul Verhoeven, you know, it's obviously good. But it's one thing to be inspired by those people or put filmmakers like that in their letterboxed for,

you know, lots of very... Hoven showing up in people's letterbox four these days. But to understand what they do is harder. And I think that this movie on top of being funny and silly and having a like who's who of alt comedy people in it. Connor O'Malley is in this movie for like about five minutes and every fucking syllable is gold. I mean, he's so funny.

He retains funniest man on earth title through this film. Funniest man on earth. I believe at one point he's playing the like, not the CEO, but like he's in charge at this food influencer comedy. And I remember at Tiff, the scene where he's. He just looks at him and goes, let's make some content. I'm like, this is screen grab, gold. You know, when this movie becomes pirate as a screen.

Yeah. Yeah, let's make some content, you know. But the idea of this would-be foodie, she's working in the trenches, kind of as a dishwasher at this social media food influencer company. And overnight she kind of becomes, Maddie becomes this great chef because she's really talented. And he has an ear for dialogue in this movie where they're not. jokes, but everything is funny. Like at one point, Maddie says to her husband, like,

I was just trying to make my husband dinner and now I'm in post-production, you know, because her stuff's being uploaded to Instagram. And, you know, I don't know what you guys thought of it. I think you both liked it, but the trick that he pulls here of making something that is sincere and in quotes in the same time, starting with his performance and extending to almost every element of the way the movie looks, how music is used, how references are deployed. I adore it.

I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of year left, but this will end up on the year end list for me. I just think it's wonderful. I like it too. I think it's going to be a little bit of a what's it for your common moviegoer because it is such a blend of so many different things that John obviously has a lot of adoration for,

but I think it plays pretty well as a pure social media food company satire. I think that that stuff, which is played very broadly but very funny, is effective. But it is really much more of an emotional crisis character piece. Sure. And maybe in a way that you won't see coming about halfway through the movie. Yes, which is played, if not for laughs, but at least in a knowing way, which, to Adam's point, is both parody but also very emotionally affecting. I thought this was a movie that understands the world of women very well.

and also understands watching it and knowing that everything is absurd and you would rather not be a part of all of it and you get slurped into it at the exact same time and you can't escape. So, you know, incredibly well observed. I am also a huge generally fan, very funny. But I loved it. And I do think it is very specific. You know, it has the content jokes and the CEO jokes and the, and it is also about eating disorders and there's a wonderful girl interrupted send up in the middle of it.

So, you know, it has references that you might not understand on like a very specific level, but I think it plays pretty smoothly. Yeah. You know, it's not impenetrable. No, I agree. And I think all those different sources that you're talking about, Adam, he treats all of them fairly and with respect. He treats Kate Seeker, which I have seen,

starring Meredith Baxter. Yeah. With a lot of respect. He's actually not parrary. The only thing he's parodying is the culture around some of those things. But the actual films, he's paying as much homage to Douglas Cirque as he is to the Lifetime movie

and not saying like, this is something stupid you should make fun of, which is a really difficult balancing act, I think. And he pulls it off. Well, and like, you know, I bow to nobody in my love for David Wayne, for instance, who I think has a similar satirical project sometime in a movie like they came together, which is one of the funniest movies I've ever seen,

where the link between, you know, contempt and affection and knowledge and engagement is very thin. But the difference is, and this isn't a knock on David Wayne, like his movies are not what you would call visually beautiful. You know, a movie like role models or wanderlust kind of looks like a glossy mainstream comedy and Wet Hot looks cheap because it was. Maddie's Secret is beautiful. Like color-coded cinematography.

You mentioned Douglas Cirque. I mean, that's not just a throwaway. I mean, Douglas Cirque, Todd Haynes, you know, Almodivar, even Verhoeven, these are, like, incredibly technically proficient filmmakers. And the fact that it's that good-looking and expressive visually on a basically homemade movie budget or what I understand. And the fact that there was so little oversight on the movie is I imagine how they got away with as Amanda was saying such a specific tone. Like this is not a movie where you get notes, you know? Like there's no notes on Maddie's secret. you're either in on making this movie, you know, or you're, or you're not.

And I will say, I mean, Kate, Kate Burland, who's, you know, worked with him a lot and she's in other stuff too. I loved her for like about two seconds in the moment this year. I got so excited when Kate Burland showed up in that film. In this movie, I just find the actor for, like, walking into rooms and sitting down and just, like, being on screen helplessly funny. I think, like, every, I think, like, every time she breathes in this movie, it's funny. And it's not a lead performance, but she's kind of on screen the second most. I think. And she's demented and great.

She's the best friend. And which leads to the best friend dancing sequences, which are just absolutely essential. I forgot about that. They're just sublime. I also really loved Claudia O'Darty, who I hadn't seen something in a really long time, but she played sort of the rival influencer.

But she was on that Netflix series, Love and was so, so funny on that show and playing basically the exact opposite character. She was the warmest, sunniest, funniest person on that show. And she is quite, quite demonic and an interesting representation of a certain kind of person who is rising to power in the media right now. Well, Adam, this is a great recommendation, man. Yeah. Yeah, no, and I'm not the only one. It's been very well, it's been very well reviewed. And I'm interested to see how

it, how it does. Thanks for joining us. And thanks for caring for your millions and millions of daughters. We appreciate you, Adam. Yeah. They asked, they're like, what my, older one is like, am I going to be in the book? And I'm like, do I have permission? Sort of, you know, she thinks that this is going to be an excuse, Leah, to watch other movies she's not allowed to watch. Because part of what I want to write about is this idea that screen time isn't something that I want to keep separate. Like when you watch movies for living, you guys both know, Sean, how much of your life have you sent just, you know, sitting and staring in front of a screen in a basement? I want to pass that on or else, what was the point? So she's excited now.

Because she's excited now. She's like, you know, we're going to get to watch stuff together. And yet they're not father-daughter film. She asked if this meant we could watch Texas Chan's on Massacre. Oh. And I said, I said no. Nine and a half. But she listens and she absorbs.

Getting close. Right? Isn't what do we think? Is 11 just the kind of like fuck it? 11 is just the fuck it zone? Because she's going to find a way to see it without your consent by 11. I mean, that's what I was doing when I was 10, 11 was just seeing things and not asking my parents if I could.

Yeah. In fact, with access to things like a Plex and various streaming things, it is only scrupulous honesty that has kept her from doing this already. I live in both fear and hope of the moment where she's like, guess what I watched because that's what I was doing when I was 10 with the VHS shelf. But, you know, that hasn't happened yet. I can't wait for what horrible thing it's going to be. This book is going to make Adam even more lovable.

It's really, it's going to make him one of the most beloved figures. in the film watching community? As long as the like small percentage of the big picture listeners who just for some reason seem to hate my guts, you know, don't, don't, you know, don't like it. Then I'll be happy. Welcome to the club, bro. Yeah. I'm going to hand-deliver copies to their home, Adam. Don't worry.

You should never make never, never make all the people happy all the time. You know, I love, I love big picture listeners very much except for the ones who just seem, you know, hopeless. Yeah, spoken like a true Verhova night. Thank you, Adam Neiman. Thank you guys. See you later. Yassi Salik is here. Hi.

Hi. How are you doing? Oh, ludial as hell. Ready to party. How are you guys? Just dandy. Nixon 5. Yes, I heard about that.

Yeah. Did you watch any of it? Nope. Okay. Well, we don't have to speak about that here. We can speak out of other things. Cinema. Maybe that was the good luck charm is that I didn't watch it.

Yeah. I don't think that's how that works. But I appreciate your. care and attention to the New York Knicks. I'm very pleased with the film that you've chosen. Thank you. And I'm looking forward to discussing it with you because it was slandered as trauma core by our co-host here. Art is subject.

First of all, I never used the T word ever, as you know. Did you not? No, I didn't say it. I said that I, whatever. This is Yasi's time and then we can discuss. Yassi, what film did you choose? Are we able to pull back the curtain on how the sausage is made here? You would be the fourth consecutive guest to do.

Yeah, this is really, this is an air. Some of us were in a four hour long podcast recording when this question was asked. Okay. And I'm not saying that I don't deeply love and respect backrooms because I actually really do. But my first choice was a drama. But that's so fine. Well, it was everybody's first choice. And once again, Rob Mahoney fucks everyone over.

Absolute villain, honestly. Definitely not my first one. Yeah. What a dichotomy in that person of like the nicest kindest. R.M? Yeah. Yeah. Who's actually so sinister and devious.

Goes for the jugular always. Yeah. It's honestly a great rep for him. And also, I had a secret second choice, but you were so unkind about people who loved the movie on the big picture podcast that I was like, oh, you shouldn't talk about that. Now I'm trying to think of. Super Mario Galaxy movie? It's the sheep detectives, which I loved with my whole heart. And that's okay.

I don't think we were unkind. I think we were just not enthusiastic. To hold myself accountable, I did say that people are losing the plateletons. little about that movie. I think that was the direct quote because it was made into a meme and I'm sorry. It's okay. I love sheep and detectives. And feel good movies. You could have chosen it. What is your relationship

to sheep? That sounds like not. Well, right. This is kind of why I'm, you know. I'm imagining a no effects album cover. Realheads will know. Listen, I love when an animal talks and there's, I love when I'm reminded of the beauty of humanity, but I'm also,

segue, I also love when I I am reminded of the absolute hellscape that we live in in modern times, which I feel backrooms did a great job of capturing, even though it's set in the past. You are the first person I know who saw the film. You went to the premiere and you rubbed it in my face. You said, I'm going. I did not rub it in your face. You said, I'm so sad.

I wasn't invited, but it would have been nice to see it with you because I had a great deal of enthusiasm of the movie. And you loved it. That night, I think even. We're like, OMG. I love this movie. I feel really lucky. Well, of course, I was invited. Thank you so much, A-24.

But I really love to see films with no chatter, like with no, nothing guiding my perception before I go in. And I did kind of, to be honest, go in being like, I don't care about this. Like, I'm going because I was invited and my friend was invited and we're like, we'll make a fun night of it. Did you go to R&D Kitchen? We went to, what is the Houston's West called? R&D Kitchen. No, no, no, the other one. Hillstones.

Sure. R&D doesn't take reservations and I'm not a waiter. Okay. Either way, I'm not a waiter and I also do not like to wait. Let's just put some context around this. The Arrow Theater in Santa Monica, Los Angeles is where the premier took place. Where the Angelina is across the street is R&D Kitchen, which is an outpost of the Hillstone Restaurant Group.

The R&D Kitchen is mostly focused on sandwiches and drinks. It's more chic for sure and it's closer to the arrow, but I need to have. It's walkable. I need to have a reservation. We walked from. From Hillstone. I like to get my steps in. Good. But anyways, all that to say.

It's all been very valuable. I went in with no preconceived notions. And to be honest, kind of like maybe a, I don't. And you guys know, or maybe the listeners don't, I'm not a huge horror movie person. But I walked out being like, this was fantastic. So what specifically connected with you about it? Um, I love, I felt like it was like a raw shock test. I love when a film is kind of that, you know, where it presents you with almost like the thinnest of plot and concept. But through that, you're able to like have your thoughts provoked kind of endlessly. My kink is having my thoughts provoked. Do you know what I mean? I do. And I like, I love psychology. I'm a psychology nerd. Yes.

might one say some of the psychological metaphor was lightly heavy-handed, sure. But, okay, here's the thing. Cam Parsons 20, right? Backrooms, we all know because we've talked about on this show, but comes from a 4chan meme. I think I'm so interested in how we're increasingly post-language in the world and especially with young people. Like, memes are borderline post-language.

The way Gen Alpha uses words like niche and a sense. aesthetic. It's post-language, you know? And I felt this film was in many ways, like, the first piece of art I've seen that captures that post-language kind of landscape. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think when you are raised in a screen-centric environment, what dominates is images, that's the thing that you are consuming and kind of defining yourself through as opposed to experiences or conversation. And so I think that's a reasonable leap to make generationally, that that's how younger people than us are thinking about how to make art.

It's just we're hurling towards that. That's a very positive, I think, thoughtful, but very positive read on it. And I think that there, you know, the criticisms that we had for the movie, which I would really like to see again, were that every time it tried to be more of a traditional film, it kind of got a little bit lost

and was, I thought, making kind of obvious and kind of dull choices. But when it was following that, path that Yasi was talking about. To Yassi's point, the more it relied on like actual words. And the more it was trying to explain what was happening instead of creating the vibe and the emotions through the visuals, the production design, and the performances. Like, you know, I thought Chutel Egya four and Renata Rinesvah were good and were did a lot with, you know, not that much material. And I agree with you that I, the less you know about something, the better. And this. did as kind of a standalone experience work and enjoyable ways. My problem was when I went back and watched the YouTube stuff. And the more lore and the more it becomes weighted down. I didn't do that on purpose.

Yeah. The less I understood it because I am old and I still use language. But I don't even think it's like I feel sometimes the way, and it's film to film, but I feel the way sometimes about films that I do about music and songs, which is like I don't really care. what the filmmaker's intention was that it was about, I care what I thought it was about. Like, I don't care what Stephen Malchmus wrote Summer Babe about. That's about me and my high school boyfriend.

Do you know what I mean? I do. And I thought backrooms really provided that for me, and I was able to, like, kind of have this, like, journey of the psyche around it. And also, it just, like, it captured a thing for me that I think about a lot in, like I said, post-language, extremely online world. which is that like everything is sort of this like existential crisis all the time and everything does feel like a liminal space. I feel like I'm constantly in a liminal space.

I've been trying to brick my phone. You guys break your phones? No. You know what it is. I just don't do it. I'm familiar with me. Yeah. It's not something I do.

Yeah, you don't need to. You're not mentally ill like myself who needs a physical device. I think I'm probably pretty mentally ill. Yeah. Put myself in a straight jacket to not go on to social media. It's kind of a defining characteristic of anybody who comes in this show is. Kind of mental ill. But I've been doing it.

And like, after like two or three days, I was like, okay, so it's interesting because that's the real world. This world I live in is fake. And that's really how I was feeling. I was like, my day-to-day lived life is not a real space. It's a liminal space. And that's the real world. And I was like, oh, no, what happened?

Like, how did I flip like this? But I think a lot of people feel that way. Well, it's funny to frame it this way, too, as a first. time viewer of this kind of story because a lot of what you hear, I've heard this from a lot of friends who are parents of older kids than our kids, is that the conversations that are happening after the movie amongst teenagers are based in a lot of what you looked at afterwards. Yeah. Where there's sort of like that lore, which is so exciting and intoxicating when you're a preteen

or a teenager, that that contributed. It amplified the movie going experience. But as a bunch of old people, we look at this as this like fresh, raw, new thing. We're not as entrenched in that lore. And we can understand it in the same way that, you know, I think the Lynchian comparisons are totally apt. You know, I think it's unreasonable to compare a 20-year-old's movie to Eraserhead. But David Lynch was 20 when he started working on a racer head, you know? So it's...

Also, many people are like, what was that man on about? And then started to, like, have conjecture about what he was on about. And it probably has little to do with what he was on about. That's why it's awesome. Yes. And I do think we've criticized it for the, like, that the quote-unquote moviness of it doesn't work in a traditional script

or arc sense. But I think what you just said identifies that it does actually work in a movie on its own because as a standalone product, a bunch of old people who don't understand backrooms or lore were pretty impacted by it. And then the young people seem to

just be really into whatever's hidden in there. And so that it can operate both ways is an achievement. It could have dialed back. I agree with you, though I was listening again to your guys' episode about it, and I do think they could have dialed it back a little because what you said about, like, breaking the form is really interesting to me.

And I think, I don't know because I'm doing conjecture, but I think if Kane Parsons had his way, probably wouldn't have included so much ham-fisted. Like, the parts that were a bit ham-fisted, like, I think there's a scene where Chutel Aegeophor's character says, like, out loud how the backrooms are his mind or whatever or something. And then, like, but I just, like, I'm such a nerd. I'm like, I love that his shadow was a monster, you know?

And I know that that's, like, quite obvious, but maybe it's not if you're 20, you know? Like, I've had 13 years of Jungian therapy. Like, for me, it was titillating, but I think it's an interesting thing to put in. And I love that 20-year-olds love this. That makes me hopeful and happy, or 15-year-olds. Could not agree more. I think the lack of self-consciousness in so much of the filmmaking is part of what makes it really special, where it's like it comes from a very raw and primal place that is informed by a lot of other stuff that came before it.

Cain is consuming a lot of stuff and kind of iterating on that, which is what a lot of great young filmmakers do, where they take their favorite stuff, and they kind of smash it all together and make their thing. Yeah, I mean, that's just the history of film and also all art at some point. Yeah, yeah. And memes are art. Like, I would die on that. Like, memes are absolutely art. Memes are a reflection of a societal illness or happiness, whatever. I ain't reading all that.

No, they're joy making them too, for sure. They're both. They're capturing. And I think I heard you ask this question of maybe a man. about like what do you how do you feel that these are all horror movies and I was saying to a friend I was like I kind of feel like it's a bit of a like red flag moment of for society that horror movies are so popular because we're all living in horror all the time so of course capturing it is what's going to be the most reflective of what we're experiencing right now I know I have a slightly like inverted perspective on that though which is that I think that so people are so inured to a lot of like bad news in the real world that they almost have to go to have a sensory experience on a big screen and quiet to be confronted with something that makes them uncomfortable as opposed to scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, oh, Iran, oh, this terrible shooting, oh, you know. Outside horror. I'm talking about, like, the horror of being alive.

The existential horror. The existential horror trying to navigate a world in which we're so isolated from each other. We lack community. As you know, Nixon 5, we're okay over here. Okay, Nixon. I did see a big uprush of community around that. We saw some people. People came together.

People who weren't there, is all I'm saying, who were not from there. What do you mean? Oh, you're mad at the L.A. bandwagon? No, I think L.A. and New Yorker were in it together. Were there a lot of L.A. people jumping on the New York bandwain? That's not very forgivable, I don't think. I don't think you can jump on there. I didn't pay too close of attention.

Okay. You're L.A. forever. I'm from here. I think you should probably be honest about who you are. But you also don't watch basketball. I used to watch the Lakers quite heavily, like, for like, six full years. Like, that was my, like, meta world piece. That's my guy.

So I know a bit about basketball. I just, you have to choose at some points what you do with your wild and freshest free time. And I have to make 600-page Google Doc. Okay. We should talk about metal world peace off air because I have some stories. Any closing thoughts on back rooms? Great choice. I really liked it.

I think I like, I mean, again, like did I think the sheep detectives was maybe a more perfectly executed film? But that's not really what I'm looking for when I go to the movies. I loved that. But what I'm looking for when I go to the movies is to walk out and think about it for weeks. And the sound design was out of this world. Like I don't usually notice that kind of stuff, but I walked out being like the sound design on it. And then when they hit you with the fucking boards of Canada at the end, I was like, I miss it. Good job, Cain Parsons.

Thanks, Yassie. Thank you. Okay, Rob Mahoney, the villain of this episode has arrived. I don't know where this came from. Little did you know your name has been uttered many, many a time thus far. Okay. because you swooped in and as is your custom, not just from Amanda, but from I would say at least three other people.

Yeah, you have been cited every time. We've gotten a lot of feedback on the process by which the movies are selected. Yeah, what are the notes? Everyone is mad at Sean because they didn't get to pick before you. I was like the third person to respond. That is true. So I don't really see how this is my fault. I don't think it is either.

And I think our system is profound. I also would just like to say that on this particular episode, I was letting the guest choose first. You did. Very gracious. You are welcome. Thank you. But this would have been my pick as well. So I rubber stamp your selection.

What is it? My pick is the drama. The movie I would say I have by far thought about the most. It had the most conversations about of anything that I've seen this year. It's just one of those moments where for weeks after its release, everyone I knew, even if they had seen the movie or not, wanted to have the intellectual exercise. about it. So who am I to turn my nose up at something that prevalent, that profound, and just honestly that hilarious to watch? Let's have the exercise very briefly. What did this movie make you think and feel?

We are broken as a country? A very American movie. Not made by an American notably. I mean, quite perceptively. Made by a man who maybe does not have the fondest view of American culture. And does have the line, isn't this an American thing? at some point said by its non-American star, Robert Pattinson. It's very fairly gestured. But also just like the question of what are we willing to forgive specifically in our partners or prospective partners? I think everyone's line varies.

Thought crime is a particularly fertile area for this one. And I have to say I'm probably more forgiving of thought crime than most, but I have never been in this exact situation before yet. Yeah, the movie seen from one angle is obviously a really absurd satire. seen from another angle kind of an interesting realistic portrayal of the way that

terrible people communicate with one another or don't and the way that like people who feel like they can't be themselves because of some of the ideas that they've had

closed down and then other people who feel very comfortable with their awfulness kind of enacted on a daily basis. I don't know that I'm not sure if this movie

got me thinking that much I think it kind of like it landed pretty cleanly for me and I quite like the movie Yeah. And I do know why there's a robust debate about it, but I'm not sure if I was kind of pulling anything apart of my head. How did you think about it?

I felt the same way. And I think the movie does the deft thing. And it is because of the choice it makes to make the Zendaya character have this confession. She did not go through with a school shooting, but she says school shooters. She says, I planned a school shooting, which as an American is, you know, the third, fourth, eighth. like the worst rail. And it's a smart choice because you instinctively as an American viewer, and probably as any human being, but I can only speak as American viewer,

like, tense up and are horrified and don't know what to do and don't know how to react to it. And so then how everyone else reacts to it is plausible. And you thus spend the rest of the film figuring, arguing with what everyone else is doing as well as what she's doing and arguing with and through that and through watching the movie kind of getting to a place where maybe you know what or I don't know what you would do because again there is this fantastical quality to it. The other thing I like about this movie is that it is in addition to that thought exercise, it's just a great movie about the total terror and impossibility of commitment and the unknowability of the other person.

And it's a it's a wonderful movie about how terrible weather. are just like just the the pits incredibly well observed about the wedding industry but the wedding photographer dialogue alone is just straight out of the most heinous documentary ever made just truly horrifying stuff the choreographer and then who it's just a heroin addict um no that's the DJ the DJ yeah sure you know but like never forget but so but those are twinned right that these people are set up to to do this thing that is being portrayed in just like an absolutely nightmarish light and they're also facing their worst fears

about the other person and the realization that you like you kind of can't you can't know and you can't totally know what to do and which is why I think the ending lands as perfectly as it does like this to me is a romantic comedy straight up I agree with you and it's like it's kind of beautiful in the end there is something in the construction they have made for their meat cute and then their reunion at the end at the

or just something kind of undeniable about that display of, I don't know, forgiveness is the right word, but the grace of like, let's start, let's start over in a way. Sure, but you could also read it as two terrible people making peace with their fucked up fate. They deserve each other. Yeah, it's like, well, we screwed this up.

And it's nice that it can be read both ways. I think that's the difference for me between this and, you know, we were just talking about Blue Valentine for unrelated reasons. Blue Valentine's a movie where, like, I do not want these people to reconcile. They're so clearly toxic for each other. I kind of wanted these two to reconcile. Like I kind of wanted them to find their way back,

even if they are messed up, even if they are at Oz, even if everyone around them is so convinced that what they have is broken or flawed or Zendaya's character particular is. I kind of just wanted to see it work, and that's, I mean, that's a magic act within this movie. Yeah, there's a, I think the primary tension of the movie is Patinson's character trying to reconcile

what he thinks he's supposed to be feeling versus what he actually feels and trying to make sense of in polite society, is this okay? Is it okay for me to be married to someone who has thought about this? Versus do I actually just still love this person on their own terms? But what has this doubt that has been cast inside of me pushed me to do, which is kind of emotionally lash out in an unfaithful way? And that's really, brave is not the right word,

but it's an unfamiliar kind of revelation about human. and behavior that like I think was fairly common in movies in the 70s, 80s, and 90s and that we just do not see that much of. And this does, it doesn't feel like a 70s movie at all, but it does feel kind of fearless and making you uncomfortable and making you not really, definitely not love the hero that Robert Pattinson is playing.

I mean, he's a real dipshit in the movie. And, you know, she's a flawed person who has thought about some terrible things, but the reasons that she's thought about them are not over-explained. But you can have empathy for them, if you step back from your outrage, which is something that Alana Heim's character

is not able to do, obviously. And she's also one of the great villains in the movies this year, like that character that she plays this. I think it's... Somehow transcended even just her normal, famous personality. Yeah.

Like the memes that propagated from her sideline at the Knicks game along these character lines is frankly amazing for someone of her, like, social footprint. Yeah, that's great. I don't know, any... What other thoughts do we have about the drama?

I think Brave is kind of the right word for me with a lot of this movie, like the idea that you can turn someone making like the school shooter confession tape into like, I need to update my firmware or whatever gag. Just the gall with which it makes you and makes you want to laugh at every time Zendaya does finger guns or makes a comment along these lines and rewards kind of the repeat like viewing and visiting of this movie. I don't know what to call that if not brave. Like I don't know a lot of movies that are operating with that kind of gall.

I mean, gall is a thing to right word. It's a little edge lority too, but just enough that I was intrigued by it. And I think the performances and the set dressing, I mean, literally, I guess, but everything else around it really does back it up so that when the script is needling you, it's just far enough. Yeah, how are we feeling about their apartment? They're flat. Incredible production design. I mean, really, really good stuff. There's no relationship to the city of Boston that I know of.

And also I did do some math on their salaries and how that's connecting to what's going on there. But I mean, listen, you know, just. Like maybe there's an insinuation that he's of some privilege. Well, sure. You know, he's a museum curator, of course. But I've never seen Backsplash that stylish in a movie ever. I think it's like zealage style. It's beautiful.

I know what that is. Yeah. Sounds good. Is that our closing note from the drama? I, you know, it's, I really liked it. That's a wonderful movie. What was the song? Ultimately, because when you and I,

podcasted about it, you said that the cut you saw had a different song. So when I saw the film, which was quite early, the song that played at the end of the movie was Frank Sinatra's, they can't take that away from me, which is an amazing song, which is one of the, and it's, it's an, it's an ode to a person who has a lot of eccentricities. And, you know, the lyrics of the song, like, for example, let me see if I can. clock some of this. There are many crazy things that will keep me loving you and with your permission

may I list a few the way you wear your hat, the way you sip your tea the memory of all that. No, no, they can't take that away from me. It is a song of acceptance that plays beautifully over that final scene but I don't think that that's the song that played at the end of the movie when it opened in movie theaters. What was the song that played at the end? I'm not even sure

what it was. I am Googling it now because it's the same one that she puts on to make him dance right? Is it forget about by Sybil Beyer? This is what the internet is telling me. I think it's forget about

and not this Sinatra song which maybe not stunning that the Sinatra state would not want to be associated with this film in some way. Pot couldn't maybe just too expensive or whatever but I went out of the movie

in this little puckish state of glee when I heard that song which is such a perfect little end note and I think forget about is it more of a more sincere maybe. Yeah, maybe. So again, that can be played,

you know, ironically at the end. That's true. I mean, you don't think the Sinatra song is sincere enough in terms of what is gesturing at? I just think Sinatra's vocal tone has a really, like, insinuating elbow in your chest quality

to it that fits very nicely with this. But, all right, well, Rob Mahoney, great stuff. Thanks for having me. Thanks for stealing this from Amanda. My pleasure, genuinely. Okay, joining us now, producer Jack Sanders,

throwing on his punditry hat to talk about the best movie of 2026. My Miss Mousy hat. That's right. So who is Miss Mousy and what is your choice? I'm choosing Blue Heron, a really beautiful film by Sophie Romvari. You know, usually to pull back the curtain,

I am left with the last of the scraps, right? And I look at my letterbox list, my best of 2026, and I'm like, okay, my ninth favorite movie is available. And this time it just so worked out that I actually got my favorite movie of the year. Wow.

That's beautiful. I rewatched it last night, and I'm really glad that I did because I don't want to undersell, like, this is a really special movie, like a really genuinely amazing accomplishment. Like, honestly, borderline feels like a miracle to me. You know, Romvari, first-time feature filmmaker, obviously has been making shorts before. This is a real step above, I would say. And also, she takes, like, a really, really big risk not to spoil anything. and I think it asks a lot of the audience,

but I think the filmmaking and the storytelling is so good that she has built so much goodwill for you to go on the adventure with her, to like, I trust you, I trust this filmmaker. And yeah, I mean, it's just, it's an amazing movie. It's a great accomplishment. So I did talk to Sophie on the show and we talked about it a little bit,

but it's been opening kind of around the country and around the world sort of slowly over the line, last couple of months. Can you put a little bit of context around the story and kind of how to understand? Because it's a bit of an unusual structure. Sure. I mean, it basically follows this small family in Vancouver Island, I believe, and there is a mother and a father, and there are four children, but one of these children, his name is Jeremy, is from just the mother's side, and he is a troublemaker. He is a very troubled person. he's a very difficult person.

I know one of the reasons I connect to this film, I think you said this with Sophie, like everybody kind of has a Jeremy in their life. And the first half of the movie is really just examining their dynamics, how this young boy plays a role into potentially fracturing, like these parents' marriage, how it affects his other young siblings, the dynamic between the parents and their children,

not just between themselves. And it's just a really, really thorough examination of how do you navigate a relationship with a person who, like, poses a question that you just simply don't have an answer to, right? Like a person who is incurable, unknowable. And I think that Romvari makes a really smart choice that is effective to me, which is, like, Jeremy needs to be a mystery to the audience as much as he is to the actual family. Right. Right.

Like, you cannot really get into his head because that's, what it's like having a person in your life like this. So I don't know. Was that enough context? No, I think so. I mean, obviously the film in the second half takes kind of a structural turn after, I think, very kind of gently and sometimes obliquely framing the crisis of this family. It's not always so overt. Yes and no. I mean, you know, it is experimental or non-traditional storytelling as well. But to Jack's point, the first half of the film is about a kid who's having a hard time, as we would say, in Montessori Parliens. That's right. And the film very deftly positions the younger sister as the stand-in for the audience and the observer.

And so you're focused enough on this younger character. And you're supposed to – you do understand as you're watching it that you're watching it through her eyes. You're trying to figure it out in that mystery that Jack talked about it from her eyes, that when it pivots – to her perspective in an older way. It is, it's a change. It's not quote unquote traditional, traditional film structure, but you're completely equipped

to understand what's going on. And you have been positioned in her, in her perspective so deftly that I find it is both unexpected and also plays really naturally from an emotional point of view. I think there was a really clever moment that I remember rewatching the film last night

because, you know, like, as much as this is a movie about like, childhood trauma and navigating these relationships. It's also just like formally about memory. Like how do we remember things? And there's this scene where Sasha is learning to peel potatoes for the first time with her mother. And she is basically explaining to her, to my estimation, how do other people outside of their family perceive Jeremy? Right.

Like how do people think of him, their family, and talk about him? Right. As a young person, that's a very difficult idea to conceptualize and understand. hand and it's this very long shot that's just on sticks and it's of Sasha's mother peeling the potatoes and her hands are just covered in potatoes and the dialogue between them is it's a long conversation of them going back and forth and explaining and it just stays on her hands with the potatoes which I thought was so clever because it's like that is how you remember things right like you attach certain experiences to other ideas and stories and she probably remembers that moment because

of that experience she shared with her mother. So there's plenty of like clever filmmaking tricks that she uses in the film that just like stack on top of each other that I found really successful. Yeah, one of the ones that really clicked for me that I cited when I talked to Sophie was the sound design of the movie is so amazing. The idea of just like hearing the box of cereal sliding across the kitchen table in the morning and creates like a real sense of unease. And the whole, you know, the Jeremy character creates a sense of unease in this household.

But there's also just the kind of common work a day, this is the noisyness. of a family full of children and they're just managing a family full of children is a lot of work even if you're not dealing with some emotional struggles and there's another scene that I haven't seen the movie in a few months now but one that jumped out to me too is this long conversation

between the mother and father after the mother has had a conversation with one of the therapists and she has been suggesting a certain sort of like clarification or classification for what Jeremy is struggling with and the mother's just like this is not it this is they're wrong about my son, which is such a familiar thing. I remember having plenty of experiences like that growing up

where my parents were just like trying to reject a professional's perspective on their life and their family. And there's something so kind of maddening about that when only you understand something. But that's also shielding yourself from something maybe you even don't understand about your own offspring or your own relatives or something. Very sensitive movie. Great choice. Very excited to see what Sophie does next. Anything else you want to add about Blue Heron? I mean, just on a personal note, it was like, I walked out of the theater and genuinely felt inspired, like, remembered why I went to film school. And, like, to say that, you know, there are amazing movies that come out. To say that this feels more attainable is absolutely silly and foolish, and I don't actually believe that.

But that's, like, the closest way I can articulate it, where I see, like, a first-time feature filmmaker, collaborating with people they've worked with in the past on shorts, and it's in a genre I really respect. And it, like, feels within touching distance. the movie that also reminded me of was after Sun and I always remember after us not to bring up that debate but I remember seeing it

I was like oh I'm so curious to see what Charlotte Wells does next you know like a super super personal story how did they broaden out what's their next project we still haven't seen anything I still would be super curious to see what she does next

but I feel the same exactly way with Romvari where whatever is next season tickets I'm very excited and curious to see what she does great pick thanks Jack thanks guys okay Amanda it's your turn Yes. How are you feeling?

You feel like all your picks have been taken away from you? No, I feel good. I jumped in. I did try to let people take first pick and Rob Mahoney did his thing. But obsession was on the table long enough that I was like, no, no, no. I would like to talk about this and to talk about the phenomenon as well as the movie, since it just kind of keeps trucking. Well, over $300 million now.

Which is just amazing. and fantastic. And we talked with Van about how this is not a movie that I normally see. This is a horror movie. And you even at some point were saying this is like a very gnarly traditional horror movie, which I historically am not into. And usually don't go see. But because this was such a phenomenon, I went.

And so, and loved it. And I thought that it worked in ways that had nothing to do. with it being like a very gnarly horror movie, even though it was, I guess. Though for me personally is someone who thinks I'm afraid and I don't like gross outs and I don't like creepy things and I don't want to do whatever like that horror thing is. It was a good education in, oh, I'm wrong and maybe I can handle it

and maybe that's not what's turning me off the genre or maybe that's not, you know, know, that I just kind of have like a misunderstanding of what's waiting for me. And that has sort of been an education over the last few years, especially. I know that elevated horror is like a bad word or a bad phrase in the community. But the Jordan Peels and the Ariasters of the world and it becoming a little more art house and a little less slasher, I guess, is, has made me realize that the genre can be broader and that there is more to it than just like really awesome kills. And I do feel like the conversation among like the true horror heads is often at some point just about like the technical aspects of the kills, which is its own art form.

There is a brand of that conversation for sure. Right. And so and so I think and I think that those of us who are outside the genre often think that that's just really all that it is and that all that can be taken seriously. And so for me, it's been learning, oh, that there can, you know, there can be more to it and that there can be as, there is art in creating the tension and the sense of unease and the psychological thriller aspect of it. And that also that there are ways to do jump scares and gross stuff that don't interest me and ways that compel me. And I honestly, like, the thing about an obsession that was so revelatory is that I thought it was very funny. And every time it got me, one of the horror tropes got me, I started laughing as a reaction. And not because it was like nervous laughter. I just thought it was a very clever and funny.

And I was like, oh, you did it. And you engineered this whole sort of thing. This is exactly what I do in many horror movies that are like. Yes. But you do understand when you are like when everyone's like talking about like Saw 7 and blah, blah, blah. And even this slasher movies, even like the. movies that scream parodies communicate just something different in terms of what, you know, what the goals are or what a quote unquote horror fan is going into a movie to see. That's why, again, scream is sort of like, you know, and intermediating it and explaining it to

people who don't get it and adding comedy. I guess part of it is just that I also really like comedy in horror movies. Yeah, I think a little bit of what you're responding to. I could be wrong about this, but my impression of it is because of how old we are. The 80s and the 90s are really the domain of Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street. You know, that brand of teen sleepway camp slasher movie defined the genre for about 10 to 15 years. And so if you're a young person coming of age and you're looking at Friday the 13th, the new beginning and you're like, I don't want to see that. That's just a guy in a hockey mask stabbing newbile 19-year-old girls.

and that I can see why that would be unappealing as a young person when you're getting involved in the genre. The genre is very wide. And it encompasses a lot of different styles, most of which are not very popular to the mainstream, you know, a movie-going audience on a regular basis. But this kind of

tension-filled, nightmarish romantic movie... Yes. Like, it's like fatal attraction as well. You know, which is a different kind of horror film and doesn't feature a one-wish willow and, you know, a more supernatural element, but it has that same fear of the opposite sex and, you know, the relationships and sex and all these things. When we did the 87 draft, I tried to do fatal attraction in horror, and I made the case that the scene with the roller coaster and the baby is like venturing into it.

It's certainly like lifetime horror. Yeah. But I understand that it's more thriller. I don't know, though. The jump scare and obsession when, spoiler alert for obsession, the friend is in the car and they're about to confess their love to each other. And then the Indy Navarotti character shows up. And so I was genuinely startled. And then the smashing the head so many times into the steering wheel that it's not gross anymore.

It's just extra. It's a really good shout because I think for that sequence for people who don't watch a lot of horror movies is incredibly affected. Have you seen a lot of horror movies? The minute they got in the car, I was like, she's dead. I just knew because I've just seen a million movies like that. So there's a grammar to those movies. And I say that not to criticize at all. I think that's one of the great things.

But you weren't startled when she showed up. I mean, the way that it's shot. Yeah. And the way that the sound is edited, it gets you to jump. But there was never a moment where I thought Sam was going to make it through that scene. Right, right, right. But also the extension of the death is intentional and, you know, says something about like the attitude of the movie and the way that it's crafted that I thought was funny. And I agree with you.

It was like a little more in on the joke with this movie than I do with many horror movies. I felt more like included, I guess. Yeah, I think Curry Barker's training, making TikToks and YouTube videos and trying to pursuing engagement on social media taught him a lot about what our primal instincts are as viewers and what are the things that we respond to and he's just got a real knack for it.

I'm really glad you picked it. I'm really glad you went out and saw it. I didn't like assign it to you. You just went and checked it out on your own because you wanted to know what it was all about. But I'm not surprised that you liked it. It has some, we've compared it like it's financial success to stuff like the Sixth Sense,

but it does have that like a new person has arrived. Totally. They're a really strong voice. They have a real handle on how to get audiences excited. And, you know, Indynavri is just giving this titanic performance, this like career announcing performance in the movie that I suspect we'll be talking about for the rest of the year. So great pick.

I love it. Love the movies. If you hadn't picked this, I probably would have found a way to pick it as well. I picked Nirvana, the band, the show, The Movie, which has pretty much been my movie of the year all year. Yeah. And is a movie that I've seen in theaters three times. and I saw it last year at a fan event

and I was strongly encouraged to check it out as a fan of I was a fan of the web series but I wouldn't say I was a super fan. I'd seen it but I did was not encyclopedic with it but I'm a super fan of Matt Johnson's I think he's just one of the most interesting creative dynamic weird people working in the movies today and

everything that he does has has just turned the dial one degree past where you normally expect this movie, which is ostensibly about two guys in an aspiring band trying to get booked at a show with the Rivoli, which is a modestly sized club in Toronto. Sorry, I just remembered jokes from it and started laughing. It's a very great many good jokes who just had the opportunity to recommend it to Van Leith, and I can't wait to hear what he thinks about it. It's an absurdist comedy that is filmed

in a very grounded way. It borrows liberally from Back to the Future. It is a movie of regret and a movie of teamwork, a movie of pop stardom. a movie of extraordinary memes. Also very much a movie about looking back at yourself and who you used to be and who you are now. And I found some of that stuff quite poignant, especially the second and third time I watched it, the 2008 versions of Jay and Matt

and interacting with their former selves and all the wonderful... If you haven't seen this movie, you've got to check it out. I think it's streaming now. But I think it is, like a lot of the best picks on this episode, simultaneously very silly and very deep. You know, like a furious Disclosure Day, Masters of the Universe, backrooms, the drama, obsession.

You know, these are pretty goofy movies. Yes. In a lot of their scripting and their premises, but they're really making sincere efforts to communicate something at the bottom of people's guts about how they feel about the world or how they feel the world is treating them. And even though Nirvana is probably the silliest of them all.

I guess. No, maybe not sillier, the masters of the universe. Yeah, maybe not sillier. And also, you know, Nirvana is very, very specific and its jokes, as is Maddie's Secret in its own way. It's true. Maddie's also very silly. Right. But with real depth.

Yeah. So it's been a really, it's going to be a good year. I feel like. I mean, these are all interesting movies. None of them actively bad, except for maybe Masters of the Universe. Yeah. I'll have to offend it. I won't fully defend it. But like, and they're from all different places, right? Yeah. Some, some big studio movies, some big IP movies, some from hallowed filmmakers, some from first-time filmmakers, some very independent-minded, some out of nowhere successes.

You gotta say, I'm feeling great about the year in movies so far. It's wonderful. I spent this weekend just fielding. text messages from friends and civilians with random opinions on some of the movies on this list, some movies not on this list. What's the most brutal cut that we've had here? Well, I realized

about halfway through the Devil Wars Part of 2 is not on this list, but I think that's correct. I had a nice time. How's it going? A coach. And you know, your beloved Toy Story 5, not here. No, you know, let's do a little check in on where I think I'm at with my top 5 right now.

Okay. Right now, I've got Blue Heron and Nirvana at the top of the pile. And then I've got 28 years later, the Bone Temple. Mirabwe are number three, the Christian Petshold film. Okay. Is it number four? And Sam Ramey's send help, which I think is maybe the biggest omission from this episode for me. Sure.

Yes. That's a good one. A movie I love. Toy Story 5 would be up there. These are just movies that have been released. 90 Secret. Yep. Yeah.

So not movies we saw it can. Yeah. This is only just, yes. That's how usually how I do it. I like Mother Mary quite a bit. I like Project Hell Mary quite a bit. Tuna was a film I loved from this year. But yeah, stuff like Fjord and Josephine from Sundance.

Sure. Which that'll be an interesting episode for us. I'll look for that discussion. Not sure if you're going to enjoy that one. Paper Tiger, you know. Yeah, Club Kid. All of a sudden Club Kid. Those, a lot of once upon a time in Harlem.

A lot of good stuff coming for the second. We haven't even seen The Odyssey. That's true. Spider-Man. We haven't seen the live action. Moana, I know you're really saving space for that. Non-live action Moana. I have not seen it, but I will with my son before, before Moana.

I'm going to do it. I was not of the age where I needed to see Moana. But can I tell you what? I told you, but I'll tell everyone else this weekend we did Panyo and Totoro with both kids. And Cy, the baby now says cat bus whenever you say Totoro, which is. Almost iconic scenes in movie history. He just loves the cat bus and Knox was wrapped. And I was also wrapped, loved it.

So, like, we're getting there. I'm very happy to hear that. You can, you know, Moana will have its time in the sun. Consider the coconut. I've heard about that. Consider its leaves. Yeah. The island gives us what we need.

That's beautiful. And no one leaves. Okay. That's poetry. That's Lynn Manuel Miranda's poetry. That's all waiting for you. You're very lucky to be able to see that film for the first time. Okay, let's go to my conversation now with John Early.

Very happy to be here with John Early. Thanks for having me. I didn't know that you were such a cinephile and such an aspirant movie director. I've been a fan of your work as an actor and comedy for a while. Thank you. But I had one clue, and so when I saw the movie, it clicked. And I haven't heard you talk about this yet. But when Vidiot's on the East Side opened a few years ago, I hosted a screening of a new leaf, Elaine Day's movie.

I was there. And I saw you and Kate there. Yes. And I didn't say anything. I didn't want to be weird, but I was like, oh, that's so nice that they're here. And I love that movie. I love Elaine May's movies. I'd never seen it.

Okay. You were responsible for my first viewing. That's nice. But I thought even of Elaine May, and I want to ask you about all the myriad influences that you had on this film, and you've been very eloquent about them in the press run for Maddie's Secret. But something clicked with me where I was like, John's the kind of person who would check out a new leaf on a Tuesday at 7 p.m. I mean, it's the only activity I ever have in mind is just to check, you know, Revival Hub, L.A.com or in New York screen slate. And just see what's playing. I don't know. That's what I like to do. Did you always want to make films? Was that always something that was a goal of yours?

Yes, yes. And I just want to correct the record. My cinnophilia is so narrow. it's so limited and I've put all of those like my favorite movies are all in Maddie's secrets so like there's nothing left. If I make a new movie I'm going to have to like develop an entirely new personality. Well it's deep and maybe not wide but it's very deep. Yes, it is deep. It is deep.

And I feel like you've been talking about it how you were literally looking at the movies that connected with you in a very primal way and tried to transfigure that into your own work. Like, what's the first movie that you saw that made you shiver quake? Just in my life. I've talked about this a lot, so I really apologize to anyone who's, this is, you know, anyone who's heard me talk about this before, but Clock Watchers, the Jill Sprecker movie,

it just did actually have a very profound effect on me, like a real time effect, not like, a retroactive like oh that did change my life like i actually felt a kind of existential shift as i was watching it as like an 11-year-old i it has it's it's a very bleak movie and i felt um like there was no turning back after like i knew like i learned a little too much about the future of my life and of the world and i was like oh no but i was i was just it really rocked me i don't know what led to you seeing that movie at 11? Well, I loved going to Blockbuster, you know?

The classic routine was like, my mom would drop me off a Blockbuster as she shopped for groceries. And it was, and I would always go to the special interest section, obviously, because that's where the game will be for. But that's also where the little Sundance recommends section was.

And kind of a neat little, like, row of movies that are all inside of your movie, right? Totally. It's sort of like 90s, indie Sundance plus queer cinema, all in the one, the smallest section. It's one little shelf. And, you know, and I would have to pretend like I wasn't looking at that shelf. I would kind of like do little drive-by glances, darting, you know, because you couldn't stay for too long or everyone would know. But Clock Watchers was there, and I was very drawn to Lisa Kudrow and still am.

I mean, I was totally bewitched by her as a kid. And she's on the cover of that movie and it's seen and Parker Posey was too. And I, you know, and I didn't, and Alana Youbach

who was in the Brady Bunch movie, which is also a huge influence for Maddie's secret. Such a good movie. And I didn't know Tony Gillette shockingly, well, not shockingly for an 11-year-old in like 1998, you know. But anyway, but I I just rented it expecting some sort of kind of Romeo and Michelle, kind of variation on Romeo and Michelle.

And it just, I don't know, I found it. It totally, it was so haunting. I don't know. And then I fell in love with Tony Glutton and the rest is Hirstry. Do you remember seeing that movie and movies like that at that time thinking about how a movie was made? or like what were you beyond the experience of the performers that you really liked and were clicking with at that time? Did you have a brain for who directed this?

How did they do it? What does it a camera look like and how does it operate? Well, it's funny because it's before the internet was what it is now where like there wasn't even an option of just like immediately Googling something. Yeah, I remember having that same feeling. Like where do I go to figure out what happened here? Yeah, like get the microfish out. Like, there was kind of nothing to be done.

So that the desire to like know about that that's what that is something that's kind of sad to me about this moment is that like movies don't even have time to just exist as their own kind of magical object. They're immediately ripped apart before they even they're ripped apart before they're ripped apart before they come out. I mean, I had to, like, email the crew. I felt like such a crank, but I was like when they announced that we got into Toronto International Film Festival, opening night discovery program. The light goes off, by the way. I'm like, directing Gary, he turns the light off. He's like, I'm not allowed to mug that hard. But anyway, no bits here.

Yeah. This is a serious film conversation. Hold it together. But when we went to Tiff, They like, people started putting out these pictures, and it's so sweet because they're just, they're proud of the movie they worked on there. But I immediately felt the thing, like, we're just like hemorrhaging the mystery of this. You know, and to me, this movie particularly has a lot of, it has like a, we were trying to make a magical kind of quality. It's like, to me, Maddie is like a magic trick.

She's like an illusion that we all worked so hard on. And so I felt sad about seeing me with like a cold brew in the sides and be like, you know, like in the like I just. You mean like onset stuff. On set. Yeah. But anyway, but I just think things get like unpacked so quickly. Your references, you get kind of surveilled before the movies even come out about all your references. And it does feel like surveillance.

It's very bizarre. It's maybe like a two meta attributory. But there is something really interesting about that though because the film is so. almost overloaded with this collision of ideas of stuff that we've seen before. And some of it is stuff that will be recognizable to your mainstream audience. Some of it

is very cinephilia. Some of it is very like if you're between the ages of 32 and 50 and you got a chance to watch television movies in the 1990s. And like, so I'm curious as somebody who was coming up with the ideas for the film and then actively making it, like do you

want it to still have that scavenger hunt feeling even though you do want to maintain the spell because as soon as you start picking apart the influences the spell also gets a little broken i think yes i i agree i mean i the references were really helpful to me you know in just building it they and i am unfortunately i am a kind of like many gay men before me i'm a very devotional person and artist and so i i could talk about the references forever that's the that's the that's what sucks is that I can't stop.

And this is the way the media ecosystem of like promoting a film right now, it's just like, it's actually secretly perversely a thrill for me to like talk about the references. I know. And it's a thrill for me to hear people like you talk about it. So like invariably what you get is this conversation. It's like, well, I love Todd Haynes and I also love this Lifetime movie and I love this. And I think we all really enjoy that. And we feel like maybe we can unlock even more of your artistry.

But then the slippery slope is, I think Maddie's Secret is very singular. Thank you. There's not, I'm never seen a movie like it. Thank you. Even though it's like a lot of other movies, which is an unusual thing to do. So like, at the risk of a vague question, how do you do that then? How do you metastasize all of this stuff that you love and then try to make something unique? Well, I can't really tell you.

I mean, I, because it's copyrighted. I'm kidding. We're really excited. No. It's just mysterious. I don't, the truth is, I think, looking back on what I did, on what just happened over the past two years, I,

actually this isn't even a retro, this isn't me, this is something I actually knew quite consciously. I think that the kind of supermarket sweep style of grabbing all these references was a way to hide. I thought I was protecting myself. Like, I was writing something before this movie that I found almost too adult and intimate

and I didn't feel smart enough. I might never be smart enough to write it, but it was kind of freaking me out and I was like, I don't know if I'm ready to do this. And I was like, I just want to do something fun first. Let me do something outrageous and fun and like cheap and in my mind at that time kind of experimental.

In other words, it was like, let me make something that's like no one's ever going to see. So like I can make, like, it makes something so, like with my friends, so low budget that like,

it probably will just never have a life. And I felt kind of protected by that. I wanted to make something kind of in private. And, and I started just really making it brazenly, like very pastiche. It just was like, It was like, it's reference in this and this, and there's dance, and, you know, like, and this

friends in it, this really, you know, and, and, and I think I thought that, I very naively thought that if I, if I constructed this crazy patchwork quilt, this like Frankenstein of references that I could somehow avoid, you know, doing the more, like, the kind of personal project that I was working on. And then it ended up actually being hugely personal. Like it just felt suddenly as I was writing it, I was like, this is so interesting. This is like, I'm tapping in, I'm like, I'm like completely just doing this like movie by numbers. I'm like following the rules of this genre. I'm, you know, this shouldn't be personal. And yet, that's, it's just such a funny thing about being an artist. It's like you, you, and,

and about being a human being is you just reveal. You cannot help but reveal. Especially when you try not to. You end up leaking out all over the place. And I really was trying to just make something fun. And then I was like, uh-oh. Well, so my experience watching it was, 45 minutes in, I was like, oh, I got it. Like I got, I get the idea.

I get the fusion. I'm seeing the references, at least some of the references. And then by the end of it, I was like, I feel it. Yeah, cool. And this was, and this is a very sincere movie. Yeah. And not at all. You know, I know you've talked about David Wayne, and there's certainly some, like, some of his progenitors in sort of like, I guess, satire or parody or something like that.

Yeah. But I feel like the movie never really commits to that. I feel like you can feel the inspiration, but it's a pretty deep movie about a person in crisis. Yeah. And not winking at you at all. And I'm curious, like, was it, you have to, like, write through to get to that place where you're deciding that that is the kind of movie that you're making? And also, how much are you communicating that about, like, raising money? And because it's probably hard to get a movie that is this kind of odd duck of influences financed and trying to make sure that, like, convincing people, like, I'm going to make sure that this is all balanced and it's all going to play.

Well, I think I had to convince people of its kind of sincerity in, because I think because of the subject matter, people, the financiers, I think, would have been terrified had I been like, no, we're, we're just having a ball, we're, you know, it's a free-for-all. Like, I, I, I, I knew that there needed to be this, like, spine of commitment and, but, and that was just what I wanted artistically, but I knew I had to kind of really reassure people that that was the case. And it was like shockingly, I mean, because again, we were working at very low budget levels. So, but it's, it was still given the subject matter and given the kind of central conceit of me playing Maddie, it was amazing how quickly people jumped on board. And I think that's because I really, for all of its, um, uh, oddness, strangeness, um, I did try to write something traditionally entertaining. Like that was, that was a goal of mine.

I wanted to make something that was like, that pulled you through, it was propulsive, it was like a dream or like a fairy tale, you know? And so it was, and I really, really wanted to make something very blunt and direct and something that was like, like the emotions and the filmmaking were very blunt and direct and clear and not vibe or cool. Why was that important to you?

Well, I think a lot of, I have a lot of rage about this, I guess, but I think a lot of art across the board, music, film, TV. Those are the only three forms of art, as you know. Yes. The only ones we acknowledge on the show. Yeah. They are, you know, I feel like there's just been a, you know, look, you see it most clearly in songs. songs very rarely these days actually follow a kind of chorus

I mean verse pre-chorus like bridge chorus chorus you know like there's like a I always say like the smear like you can see it in films that have like digital effects yes

and it's sort of like there's like a haze around a certain kind of pop music yeah I know what you mean yes there's an ambient quality to so much of yeah and and then when you hear like an Abba song you're like

Oh, right, right. And I don't know. I forgot what the question was. You were trying to do something direct, which I appreciate it. Yes, yes. And I just, and I also think there's like such pressure in the culture for a while now because of social media and like take culture, like hot takes. There's just been, there's been, there's such a pressure to be smart and to, to know it's, exactly what you're doing and for every and then and then also with all this like reference letterbox

criterion like shit it's like it's like there's such pressure for everything to be so researched and studied and for you to have a perfectly you know to articulate your vision perfectly and like i just really was like i think there's possibly something very it was exciting to me to not be concerned about those things and also look these are all this is like a high mind a way of talking about it to me it was like the character like maddie is is very sincere. She's a dork, you know, in some ways. She's not a cool girl.

She's a tri-hard. She sees herself as Emily as a tri-heart, Susie O'Maker. An example of my incredibly nuanced writing. But, like, you know, I don't know. I just, I'm so, I think we live in a very blunted moment. You know, everyone, there's like a kind of way that people talk here. and at least favorite thing. Yeah.

Yeah. And I don't know. Everyone seems so fucking depressed. And I don't know. I wanted to make something that was like kind of cutting through the ambience. Yeah. I talked to Olivia Wilde yesterday in her new movie. And I was asking her about directing herself and how unusual that must be.

Yes. It's very odd. Can you talk about your experience? especially given the performance that you were giving? Yeah. Oh, it was very odd. I mean, I've done it a lot in a way. You know, I've made my own work for a very long time.

And so I'm quite accustomed to just kind of like, is this so annoying this bracelet? No, it looks great. Your fans aren't mad. I mean, they're always mad. Okay. Not at you, though, so don't worry. But I'm very accustomed to, like, kind of just like getting what I know.

need for myself, you know, and like, and giving a lot of options. I'm very custom, like, editing myself and I don't get too, you know, caught up in how horrible I look. Do you know what I mean? Because the movie is kind of about this. This is why I ask. Yeah. This, like, transition that Maddie is making to a kind of forward-facing role in our wonderful content society, of which you are currently participating. And so I was wondering if maybe, like, some of your life, as somebody who makes stuff and is maybe directing yourself in a very overt way

and has to look at yourself all the time and then having a character who is deciding to do that choice and like on the one hand seems very

like made for it right? Like go for it and on the other hand it creates like a sort of crisis in her and sends her down a very dark path

in her life I mean I did I get that right you totally reveal yourself entirely right now. I have a very

similar reluctance. You know, I have like, I feel like very unhip in many ways, you know, and I, I, I maybe value or, you know, or maybe

I'm maybe desperately trying to hold on to something that you can't even grip onto anymore. It's like a kind of privacy, integrity, you know, I don't know. I really relate to Maddie is very much an extension of me in that way. And I mean, I don't know. I think I'm stronger than...

I think Maddie is stronger than me, period. But maybe in this way, this particular way, I'm quite used. I'm very accustomed to just, like, putting myself on camera and watching myself and not getting too freaked out by the way I look. And, you know, I certainly don't. often don't love the way I look on camera, but also I'm a funny person.

Like, I'm always like, let's get uglier. Come on. Like, let's, you know. Different standards. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't remember. Would you like level set with people on set?

Where you just say, like, am I doing this right? You know, do you need like someone to kind of backstop you, you know? Because when you're the director, you're the answer of all the questions, right? I had some very important people on set with me. I had the cinematographer, Max Lachner, who was such a huge part of all this, obviously. But, you know, he really, really understood everything quite deeply. He's also a literally training to be a psychoanalyst.

So there was always a kind of, I don't know. It was, I felt, he brought an extra layer of kind of compassion and psychological nuance to all of our discussions. And he really was, I think, a protector of the... He just totally understood the kind of, like, bounciness of the movie, you know, the kind of buoyancy of, like, the tone. And so he was... He did a great job of, like, making sure that I was keeping it, like, up.

and then my ex-boyfriend Gordon Landenberger who we had been not in a relationship for years at this point but he's the production designer and me and Max and Gordon were all friends and we we you know worked very informally on this movie without getting paid before pre-production started we were living together for a couple weeks even before pre-production and you know so like there were those

and Gordon and I know each other very intimately and like and he knows certainly understands certain kind of performance and securities I have and and so he was he was actually he was incredible kind of emotional support which is which is absolutely something that a director has to do whether they you know of tyrannically avoid doing it or not but like anyway so it was but all in all it was incredibly lonely it was psychological torture I I couldn't believe I was doing it to myself. I was shocked. And when I was editing the movie and I was watching footage of myself,

I mean, I had a day in editing where I was like, I had to leave and go home and I like burst into tears. I was like watching myself direct myself in a very important dramatic scene where I like basically crumble to the floor and weep. And I was watching myself do like six or seven days. takes in a row where I'm like crying on the floor and then going like cut and then standing up and then being like waiting for someone to go and it was like and you could see me realize in real time that like that's me that's my job no one's coming for you no one's coming yeah no one's

gonna come rub my back or like and everyone was so sweet no one was being cold they just didn't know what I needed that you know that that's a very intimate thing between a director and actor and I felt very exposed and I felt like I was doing this totally crazy thing I felt kind of insane that I'm like playing this girl in this treatment center and it's like getting this heavy and I just like I don't know

but watching myself watching that one person dynamic in the editing room was like very confronting for me and it also made me feel very close to Maddie and I was like because you know Maddie is so self-made. She was like, not to give anything away, but like, you know, she did not have a great childhood. And she's like, kind of built herself up. She was such strength, you know, and, and I, I, I don't know. I just really was like, it was like very profound. It was like, it was like a moment

deep into post where I was like, oh, this movie is like, again, it's like, in some way started from this like really kind of goofy these goofy instincts and then became totally totally shockingly personal and the process had this meta quality of absorbing the movie and and and the movie was absorbing real life and it was just it was I don't know I want to ask you a little bit about that and sort of like the specific tone that you're trying to strike and and meet that feeling so there's an amazing sequence late in the film where Kristen Johnson, who plays your mother, comes in for kind of like a psychotherapy conversation.

And that scene, I feel like it kind of brings all of the things together simultaneously. It is like John Waters and Tennessee Williams and Lifetime, right? Like all at the same moment. Yeah. It's precious. Absolutely. It's Tennessee Williams.

Oh, you already said it. Suddenly last summer, Marnie. Right. Yeah. Marnie, right. Here I go with my references. No, no, no. But it's so interesting.

I love that scene. But it is a scene that I think a lot of people, myself included, kind of struggle to describe where like it's not camp, but it's not hyper sincere. And it is funny, but it is emotionally powerful. And there is this like nether zone of tone. Yeah, totally. And I don't really, I maybe never known how to talk about it. And it maybe, and you conjured it, right? You made a movie that has it.

Yeah. So how did you do that? Well, that's another thing where that scene, it's kind of, is profundity a word? It is, yeah. Okay. You're not describing yourself as profound. Oh, no, no. I can do it if you want.

If you want me to say the word, I can say the word. No, this is just the cool thing about making anything is like, again, like the just the power of the uncons. conscious mind. It's really crazy. Like, but I was, you know, because again, I was just going for this kind of like hysterical in the Freudian sense.

Suddenly last summer, big final, like, explosion of the trauma. You know, and like, that's a trope that I actually like, typically, like, I hate it. I find it totally cheap. And like, and it's a part in movie, TV movies, plays where I just get a little bored where I go, right,

the puzzle piece, this is what explains the previous behavior, you know. And that, the kind of bluntness of that, I think, is what I find inherently funny about it, too. I don't know. It's also kind of interesting to me that we clearly have been for many, many years now in a, a moment where there's actually a much more like kind of cool version of that, you know what I mean? But it's passing itself off as like smarter and more evolved. It's therapy as trauma core. Yes.

Beautiful. And there was something kind of naughty and really fun to me about like exposing what that contemporary thing is. It's like you're not doing anything new, honey. I love this. I was doing this years ago. And guess what he was doing? It was so much more flair. And guess what a fucking sense of humor.

There's no way Tennessee Williams doesn't think suddenly last summer is funny. There's no way. There's no way. It's so absurd. The big privilege. Anyway, that being so, so I found myself making this thing with like, which where the climax was this like trope that I like actively don't like to watch. Which is another thing we're like, what are you doing, John? Turn the car around.

But, you know, I don't know. Then I just kind of gave over to it and I found it all incredibly moving. and like I found making the connections between Maddie's behavior and her past like very deep and and straightforward it's it's an easy thing to track I liked the easiness of it but when I was editing it I just was like oh my god these two shots of me and Kristen Johnston sitting there like I was like it's me divided in two it's like you have Maddie who is like the gooey center of me, the like the aching, longing, yearning,

sincere child. And then you have Kristen, who is the kind of, I don't know, this counteracting force that's like always trying to kind of burst the bubble and laugh and be naughty and try to

like expose I don't know, like hollow piety or, you know, like harsh truths. Yeah, yeah. And to have a good time, you know. And like, and I was like, that's, I was like, it's me. It's just me. It's, it's, it's the two sides of me.

And then why that was interesting to me. It was because I was like, and that's the movie itself. It's like, the movie is always putting those two things next to each other and making them try to get along. It's like you two behave. You know, like you're going to figure it out. Like you guys, you have to like negotiate and figure something out. And that's what I think the movie really is. at the end of the day. It's like, it's a negotiation between these two sides of myself.

And there are certain scenes where one side of me wins over the other, certain moments. It changes from moment to moment from scene to scene, I think. But then I actually, I think what was like really beautiful to me about this is I do think, and this is not for me to decide, okay? But I do think that there are moments where they're really. synthesized and where it doesn't matter who's winning, you know, which side of me is winning. Yeah, no, it's really interesting. I was thinking about how you were saying you were trying to write something before this that was

more personal or more dark. And then where you brought yourself to, and I don't know if you're familiar with the rapper's first album conundrum, you know, the sort of like you've been waiting 25 years to tell your story. You put it all in your first album, and then you get to the rapper's second album and you're like, this person has nothing left to say. And so, like, is there any part of you when you're making something where you're like, maybe don't put all of it in? Yeah.

Like, what can I? Because it seems like maybe you ended up putting a lot of it in. Yes, because I was trying not to put all of it in. Like, I was like, oh, I was like, oh, I'll just do something fun. Like, let's just do something fun. And then, yeah, I don't know. It feels, to me, like, but this is what making anything, by the end of it, you're like, it contains the universe.

Everything's in this. Is this, um, it. I asked Olivia this yesterday, too. Is this your job now? Like, is film director the thing that, because, you know, I feel like, from afar, it seemed like you were doing great. As an actor, as a comedian, like, yeah.

It seemed like, you had a thriving career. I keep trying to like that. That camera doesn't want you. That camera doesn't want you. Stay in the two shot. This is a conversation. Please stay in the two shot, John. I know you need your close up.

Mother, please. I, I, yes, I mean, yes, it's certainly not going to pay me anything. Yeah, yeah. I was going to ask you about that, too. Yeah. Well, you never know. I mean, that's a tricky thing with this, right?

Like, regardless of how this film does, people stumble into commercial success, following their passions all the time, so you can't count against that, right? Yeah. Well, you know, Wallace-Shan, someone who I've worked with, I just spent two years working on his play, and he's a hero of mine for so many reasons.

but I really I realized with this I mean I realized having put some of my own money in this movie I you know and then working on an off Broadway play for two years I was like oh I understand I'm now understanding the young Sheldon thing

like I'm understanding like the way he's built his life he has done these he did seven seasons of young Sheldon and take gigs sometimes and Murphy Brown the Cosby show

he did a million things like that and it has allowed him to fund his avant-garde theater that's often been totally maligned and ignored and misunderstood. And, you know, and so I, but to me, this is, to answer your question, which I've somehow managed to avoid for three to four minutes now, some might say 35 minutes. I, yes. Like, this is, this is,

really what I like to do and I really like, you know, the beautiful thing is you end up, you not only give yourself something to do for two or three years, you give your friends something to do for two or three years, you know? And like, my friends were like, it's not that this wasn't without its conflicts and its struggles, but like, my friends seemed so happy that we all had a little job for a little while. You know, we got to work together. We got to work together. And like that was so nice, but I really did feel working on this movie. I was like, this is a dignified life. I would like to keep doing this. I would really like to keep doing this. And I've always wanted to. Do you think you'll circle back to the thing you were working on before? Yes, I am.

I'm already doing it. Because I really did. I really feel capable. I've proved something to myself working on this on Maddie's Secret. And I've, and, you know, Maddie's Secret was in a little bit of, you know, Maddie's secret was I mean, it's in the title, Maddie's secret. Like, it's an exercise in, like, bluntness, you know?

And I worked through that, and I want to keep going. I would love to make, like, eight Maddie movies. Seriously, I would love for her to be, like, a recurring. It's my dream, honestly. But I also... I got something out of my system a little bit. The Maddie's in the movie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, um, one joke on set, because we were honestly having so much fun. I think this is Claudia O'Dorty's joke. She was like, you should do Emily's secret. Like, you should just spend the rest of your life taking each character in the movie. And, like, Dina's secret, Beverly's secret,

and just do their secret. I gotta tell you, I love Claudia. And I feel like I have not seen her enough. Like, I fell in love with her in love. And I think she is the funniest person in the universe. And letting her be, like, a bitch was just such a great idea. She's so wonderful. Well, she's a very, like, Claudia is.

is, people are very intimidated by Claudia, actually. Like, you know, she's played a lot of, like, bright, chirpy girls. And, and she's just, like, she's the funniest. She's the coolest. She's the funniest. And I was excited to let her tap into the more withering, you know, part of her. You did good. Okay, so you're making another movie.

It's less blunt. What, less blunt. I hope. But so do you, like, will you all? be like taking a young Sheldon like is that is that the plan there's no offer okay i mean i mean it literally has to come along the other thing that i have which is really nice is um i was going to come up with a joke i couldn't think of anything but i actually do have um i was gonna come up with the joke yeah yeah we acknowledge your effort thank you yeah um i uh no i am i have touring i mean i literally

Stand up. Like, touring is also, I love doing it, actually. It's like totally depleting, but I really, really love performing live. And I have that to make money. I hope this isn't an invasive question, but is that something that you're cool doing as you get older? Because, like, I certainly find traveling for work now to be much different than 10 years ago. No, no. And I don't do, this is like the Maddie and me.

I have this like, and this is very much the movie. I have this, the movie both on a like story level but also on a formal level. It's like overstuffed. It's like it's doing so much. It's exhausting itself. Maddie's exhausting herself. She's doing the dance class. And similarly, it's like in order to which she's a dance class, we had to learn choreography on our final weekend when we were all so exhausted.

It's like, you know, I have a habit. And like, and my live shows are like, they're two hours. They're not an hour. They're two hours long. I'm doing song covers, you know, we're doing, I'm doing a, I have a character where I have to change, comment there's like, you know, whatever. It's like, I, I like to like sweat on stage and I'm, and so I, I, um, it's, with each passing year, I just get more and more like, whoa, I can't do this anymore. Like, I'm like, I feel my age in a, in a crazy way. Okay. Well, we end every conversation here by asking,

filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? You are a filmmaker. Thank you. I needed to hear that. What's the last great thing I've seen? Don't say the wrong thing. I know. I can't because I know.

They'll come for me. I'm sure because it's such a clear feeling when you're like, oh, I loved this. I love this. And I know I had it recently. Do you feel like you're still a massive consumer of movies? I've slowed down on consuming really anything. I haven't watched TV in so long. I was like,

Maddie. But I haven't. I also was like so inundated in watching movies to get ready for this movie that I like feel like I can't really watch anything anymore. I hear this all the time from directors too. There's a little like you hit a wall or something when you make a movie. I still hit the wall.

And I'm like for this next thing I'm writing, I would like for the wall to break down again. Is there something that is an inspiration point for the new thing that you would share? You can be a real Cheshire cat about this if you want. Can I smoke in here? It's fine, right? I, okay. Let me think, let me think.

What can I say? I mean, let's just say, okay, this is really, I'll tell you off the mic, but my hint was this. There's an Amazon documentary. Or there's a documentary on Amazon, not about Amazon, on Amazon. Okay. That has been very helpful for me. Wow.

And that's all you'll give. Honestly, that's great. That's a first. Someone who won't name a thing, but will reference something, but you will come back. This is something by Amazon. On the next movie. Yes. Yeah, in 62 years. And you can reveal.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I'll be, you know, fully paralyzed. from various back surgeries. Okay, what have I seen that I love recently? No, no, let's do what you just did. I like that.

You can claim ownership of the first time ever referencing, but unenunciating. Yeah, that was special. John Early, thank you for being here. Congratulations on Maddie's Secret. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thanks to John Early.

Thanks to Chris, Joanna, Charles, Mallory, Van, Adam, Yassie, and Rob. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on today's episode and his select. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for his production support. Later this week, Amanda, the movie auction returns. Yes. You're excited?

You're ready? You prepared? Yeah, I mean, we've just spent an entire episode hearing people complain about how they didn't get what they wanted in the first half. So, you know, maybe I can channel that energy forward. Let's make it a whole theme week. Yeah. We'll see you then.