The Big Picture - The 10 Most Anticipated Movies of Summer 2023, and the Most Surprising Film of the Year So Far

Episode Date: May 16, 2023

Amanda and Sean discuss ‘BlackBerry’ before sharing their five most eagerly awaited movies of the summer season (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by Matt Johnson, the filmmaker behind ‘BlackBerry’ (55:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Matt Johnson Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Ryan Russillo. I'm the host of the Ryan Russillo podcast at The Ringer. We are a sports show, but we do it a little differently because we want to cut through all of the nonsense and try to figure out what's really happening and give you those bigger picture observations. Do a lot of NFL, a lot of NBA, and of course college football. Also have a great guest lineup, a lot of athletes, front office guys, and even we do some actors and writers from famous TV shows and movies, plus our life advice segment at the end of every show. So make sure you follow The Ryan Rosillo Show on Spotify.

Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about what we're seeing this summer.

Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Matt Johnson, the filmmaker behind the new movie Blackberry, a funny and fascinating docudrama behind the titular device. It's created in Canada and briefly was the worldwide leader in handheld devices once upon a time until it wasn't. Matt's movie, really wonderful. And talking with him was a lot of fun. In fact, sometimes you have guests on the show, Amanda, where I'm like, you'd actually be better at my job than I would be. He was very, very thoughtful and very articulate. I hope you'll stick around for our conversation in part because we're going to talk about the film Blackberry

here at the top of our conversation. You did see the film, did you not? I did. So we've been talking about this wave of films about real life products in our society, all of our emotional hand-wringing about air and what does it mean? And oh my goodness.

Blackberry, of course, is in this cohort along with Tetris and the new forthcoming Flamin' Hot Cheetos film coming soon. But BlackBerry is a little bit different. What did you think of BlackBerry? I really enjoyed it. The difference between BlackBerry and all of those other products is that BlackBerry failed. And so that helps in terms of whatever corporate Gen X angst you and I are bringing to this, even though I just really like to reiterate, we are not members of Gen X.

We are not. But it also just helps in a storytelling perspective. Like there's a very neat rise and fall and there are themes baked into that failure that are familiar and more about people than just corporate brands, even though there is a decent amount of corporate branding in it, but it's branding for something that no longer exists. So you don't have to feel bad about it. I also realized that I did not know

this entire story, I think because BlackBerry is a Canadian company and we are apparently very snotty as Americans about Canadian tech companies. So there were some surprises, which is always a good thing. And then you mentioned I haven't listened to the Matt Johnson interview yet, but I did see the movie and he also plays a role in the movie. And I realized I didn't know who he was in the movie, but figured it out very quickly. And it's because it's the guy who's having a lot of fun. Yes. And this movie, and I was like, oh, that must be him.

And it was because the movie is also having a lot of fun. It knows what it's doing. I think it's knowing references to the time period, and particularly the music, are funny. And it's not winking and there is it's it's not winking exactly but it's just zesty it's made by a person who lived through this time for sure and has a keen attention to it so it's based on this non-fiction book losing the signal the untold story behind the extraordinary rise and spectacular fall of blackberry that jackie mcnish and sean silkoff wrote and if you know anything about

Johnson's movies, it's an unlikely thing for him to do. And we talked about this a little bit because his first two films are these sort of very low budget kind of mockumentary, but not so much mockumentary as fake documentary films. The first one is about an aspiring high school filmmaker who also turns out to be a school shooter and it takes this very uh unusual tonal approach to that story it is not at all like a taxi driver style film it's something much more irreverent than that and then operation avalanche is about two guys from the cia who kind of infiltrate nasa and they're both very wry and winking and strange and slightly discomforting in a way that actually I think is

perfect for this story as well, because it is funny and it is kind of freewheeling, but there's also something very tense. And Matt said something so interesting to me when we were talking, which is that they used long lenses shot at a great distance to make this movie. And the reason for that is one, it makes it seem like you're sort of peering in on this world that you don't have access to which is often what this kind of corporate intrigue would reveal and also that it has a kind of like wildlife documentary feeling where we're seeing these kind of demonic figures and the the biggest reason to see the movie in addition to matt's filmmaking and the kind of fun recent nostalgia of the story is jay barel and especially Glenn Howerton in this movie are both so fantastic as the sort of two co-leaders of Rim One, the company that created Blackberry.

Glenn Howerton, of course, from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is on a million in this movie. He is like an absolute demon come to life, like the embodiment of psycho-capitalism and so, so funny. I really loved him in this. Are you an it's always sunny person? Casually. I mean, I've seen a lot of it and can get like a general reference and it always makes me laugh. Like the, you know, the dirtbag funniness of all of it and the Philadelphia-ness of it. It's the most accurate representation of Philadelphia that I have yet seen on film. Same. And Jay Baruchel, of course, who people will know from Judd Apatow comedies and from his friendship with Seth Rogen on film. And Jay Baruchel, of course, who people will know from Judd Apatow comedies and from his friendship with Seth Rogen on screen,

and of course is the Canadian director in his own right and was on this show once upon a time talking about Goon. And I thought he was very good as well. And he has a tough job because he has to transition over time into a significantly older person. He's a very kind of impish,

childlike actor in the first place. But I thought he was very good too. And this movie is really kind of dancing on the razor's edge of how serious should i be taking this and how much should i be laughing at this and i thought it really narrowly glided on that edge in a way because it's trying to be comic in a way that say i don't know air is not trying to be quite specifically and when tetris is trying to be funny, I completely checked out. So it's hard to do these kinds of stories. I didn't realize that it was trying to be funny.

The Glenn Harriton character in particular and performance is so genius to me because it's a knowingly and decidedly shitty person basically that like that untrustworthy going for the you know the money businessman who like occasionally gets things right also and so it's like dancing that character and is dancing himself but really asking you to like weigh your allegiances and like, you know, do you want this company to succeed versus do you want this slime ball to like win? Uh, it's, it's an interesting and I think like very like sneakily complex window into this world that, you know, maybe like the, the bros in air who I definitely want to hang out with, um, a lot more don't necessarily have. Did you have a BlackBerry? I did. I begged for one at my first job.

And I remember my boss who was all of, you know, 25, but that was my boss in, in 2006 being like, you don't actually want one because then work never leaves your life and your life is over. And she was a hundred percent right.

And I still was like, give me the thing. If you had not gotten one at that time, though, it wouldn't have mattered. Bob, you're too young to have gotten a BlackBerry, right? Yeah, I never had a BlackBerry. Although some of my friends did. Like the friends who got cell phones maybe a little bit too early. And they were a little bit too obsessed with the BlackBerry messaging.

BBM me. You know, that was like a common Facebook status for people. But no, my first cell phone was a touchscreen phone. One of the brilliant little storytelling ticks of this movie is pointing out that there was something so emotionally satisfying about the clicking and clacking from the QWERTY keyboard that you had when you were using your BlackBerry.

And I was an avid BlackBerry user. My son is quite fixated on our Apple TV remote. That's the one. And as bad parents. For that reason? Yeah. As parents, we let him have access to an array of remotes, some of which I don't even know what they do. But he knows that it's the Apple TV and he just wants to click it.

And that's why we can't actually watch anything because he just keeps hitting that click, hitting that click, and then it goes away. It's that level of specificity that I think distinguishes a movie like this too, that like it's speaking directly to what is appealing to people about these things and then using those as conversation points in marketing meetings and saying like if we're going to make a movie set in the world of corporate intrigue, let's actually show what people are talking about in the most ridiculous way possible. I thought this movie was very good. You know, it only opened in I think 450 theaters over the weekend. I don't think it's really like a box office titan kind of a movie, but it is one that I think will be pretty easy to go down in the streaming world. And I would

imagine that if it finds the right home, a lot of people are going to check it out. I would love to just see a grassroots Glenn Howerton Oscar nomination. I would think that, I mean, just to watch him on the campaign trail. He's a character just have Dennis from It's Always Sunny on the campaign trail

will be fabulous. It's not going to happen but it would be great if it did. He is so good. Yeah. So funny. So we're in the

middle of May. Yeah. We're about to embark on our trip to Europe. That's right. We are thinking about the summer.

We haven't seen Fast X yet. We're seeing Fast X tonight. How long is Fast X? I didn't Google the runtime. Two hours and 21 minutes. It could be worse and it could be better. Could be worse and it could be better.

I read varying reports that it is the first of two films. I thought Vin Diesel was like, no, it's three. Yeah, it was what he said over the weekend that it is actually the first of three films. On the the flip side there are some saying if the film does not perform as well in china as the previous films have that uh this could be the last of the fast

films because this film reportedly cost 350 million dollars but i view fast x as the arrival at summer movie season okay not guardians you Guardians? You could have said Guardians 3. To me, it's like the run-up to Memorial Day is really when this stuff starts. That's how I think of it personally. You and I agree on that. I would say the studios and the movie theaters and the marketing individuals

would say it starts in late March to early May. And I think that that's fair, if you want to argue that point. I use the Entertainment Weekly release calendar circa 1997 version. And I think that that issue often came before Memorial Day, right? Yeah. The summer movie preview. This was the issue of the year.

Our entire lives are devoted to trying to make it like it's summer 1997 again. And like, that's fine with me. You know, like the movies, our responsibilities, like all of it. Let's go. Drop me off at the pool in the neighborhood and like give me some Skittles from the refrigerator and don't pick me up till 6 p.m. You know what I'm saying? In this scenario, I'm just Knox. I'm clicking on the Apple TV remotes.

Like that's just that's all I'm doing. It brings him a lot of joy. Is this going to be a good summer movies? I think so. I think so. I think July is just absolutely our Superbowl. And even though you're like walking yourself away from it. Are we sure it's not June? Yes.

I'm sure that it's July. I've got four June films. You know what, Sean? You can do this character, but let's have some real talk right now. You and I. Okay, real talk. Here we go. As podcast partners, as friends, as parents of young children, we have to plan a little bit in advance.

We got to plan our lives and our commitments here at work, our commitments at home, where we're going to be in the world at any given time. And you and I started having conversations last year about our summer schedules and how we just had to block July off. And July was the main event. I, I, you cannot believe the awkwardness and weirdness of every discussion with my wife about when we can travel back to New York to see our families with our young daughter, because I need to be home for the entirety of July. I was very clear about this also.

She was not pleased. This was probably one of the true crucibles in recent times of our relationship. But I shall be here through July. August, we're going to take a little break on this pod. We have a special treat.

We sure do. A special show that Bobby and Amanda and a few other great people have been working on which I'm very excited about. Not going to reveal that yet. We're not ready to reveal that.

Do you hear who we got? Or who, not we. I've heard a great number of people. Well, I know, but the most recent one was very personally exciting. Was it the initials EC? Yes.

Yes, I did hear this. Very exciting. No one will be able to guess that, which is very, very good. I'm very much looking forward to that. And August, we will cover the movies in August. We'll probably have a couple of episodes right at the beginning and right at the end of the month. But the bulk of the episodes we do will be this special project.

But June and July are stacked up. We've got some really fun stuff coming up. So do you think this is going to be like a series of big hits? But June and July are stacked up. We've got some really fun stuff coming up. So do you think this is going to be like a series of big hits? Or do you think we will be angsty as usual? Oh, no, we'll be angsty. Some will go well. Some won't live up to your personal standards. People will go more than they have been, but less than the theaters and studios want them to.

I think there will be a lot of really overwritten box office columns, a lot of nonsense surveys talking about, you know, customer behavior trends or whatever. Let me ask you a question since you mentioned overwritten box office columns. You saw Guardians had an incredible hold over the weekend? Congratulations. So more people. So is the MCU back?

No. I'm just kidding. You don't have to answer that that was a joke um book club chapter two which i still have not seen nor have i uh did not perform that well it underperformed that's right because they didn't give us that 12 30 on friday screening uh with wine i what i read is that the retired women of our nation that so supported the first book club film that made 100 million have decided they've thrown in their lot

with Groot and Rocket and they are fully supporting Guardians 3 this time around and they have abandoned Jane Fonda and Mary Steenburgen and Candice Bergen.

I think what they know is that Jane Fonda Mary Steenburgen and Candice Bergen and Diane Keaton will soon be streaming in their home. And they can have as much wine as they want while watching the film at the time of their choosing. I haven't seen it yet because I couldn't figure out a time to go this weekend. Did I tell you I think I'm doing a doubleheader tomorrow? Of book club chapter two in Hypnotic?

Yes. Yes. Good for you. We love to see it. I'm not leaving the AMC for like four hours from like 11 to three. The reviews of hypnotic, the new Ben Affleck film, which I have not seen either are quite poor.

Yeah. Quite poor. That's okay. Robert Rodriguez, Bobby's guy from spy kids. That's we'll see what happens. We'll see. Can he live up to a lead a battle angel?

I don't know. I am not standing behind hypnotic just because he made Spy Kids. Fair enough. Fair enough. What is the best season for movies? Fall. Fall. Yeah.

Because of this pod or because that's when the best movies are? Well, both. See, that's the thing is that summer movie season is so fun, but it sucks. Of course, there's going to be good movies this summer. This might turn out to be

one of the best summers in a long time because of the quality of filmmaker we have participating. And I also out to be one of the best summers in a long time because of the quality of filmmaker we have participating. And I also, Transformers Rise of the Beast did not make my list, but I'm locked and loaded. I am ready to go see

a beast at work. I'm with you. So here's the thing, and this is true both of movies and life, is like June to December is when it's good and then January

through like May you're just slogging through. And life starts anew in June it's summer summer is the best season team summer forever no but yes like once again extremely pale drop me off I was outside with my kid all weekend it's so fucking hot it was not that hot her cheeks are bright red absolutely beautiful yeah so you gotta get the sunscreen stick you don't know what it's like you You don't know my pain. No, you don't. You don't know Irish pain in the sun.

You don't know it. That is true. I don't know that. It's different. I talk to all of these people. They're living wonderful lives. They're tanning. They're feeling the warmth of vitamin D.

I have none of it. We can get you a hat. I'm exhausted. I'm pained. I was looking at the hat selection at Descanso. I always wear a hat. Yeah. Well, I know, but like a larger one, you know, with the neck.

No, I don't want to look like a weird, like, velocity of Z Explorer. Okay. Well, we can revisit this. Whatever. Summer is the best. And also, like, that I'm just going to the movies for three hours. Number one, like, I have an awesome job. That's really sick that that's, like, what I'm doing professionally tomorrow.

But also that you just go and you watch dumb shit. That's really fun. And then September hits. But also that you just go and you watch dumb shit. That's really fun. And then September hits. It's that back to school feeling. And all the good movies start again. And you're just like, oh, my God, I love to argue with people about movies. This is electric. People like everyone else, the civilians log on.

And they're like, oh, I heard that was good. Should I go check that out? Good point. Yeah. And you're like, yeah. And then you've got the holidays where you can take your family to see movies. People are like, oh, did you see, you know, whatever. So the good stuff starting now. I was chatting with my wife yesterday about having her parents come out in November because I'm at a movie like every night

during November. You know, that's like the time of the year, but you're right. Summer is a lot of fun. How'd you think about making your list? We each chose five films that we're excited about and we're going to do it in a countdown fashion. We'll share the dates so that people know what's coming. I looked at your list and I put all of the movies that you willfully elided, which I am also, are the movies that I'm looking forward to with number one. I mean, you took number one. Your number one is shared, but. Yes. Insidious the Red Door is my number one. No, that's not right.idious the Red Door is my number one. No, that's not right. I'm looking forward to that film.

Why don't you start us off? What's your number five? My number five is No Hard Feelings. Jennifer Lawrence, back at it. So this is directed by Gene Stapinski, and it's a sex comedy starring Jennifer Lawrence. The premise is that the parents of a young, a teen boy, but older teen, it's not illegal, right?

Hire Jennifer Lawrence in order to date, euphemism. I think learn the ways of the world. Sure, right. With Jennifer Lawrence. And this is Jennifer Lawrence back. She had a child. I believe her son is like pretty much exactly the same age as my son. And, you know, I'm here making outlines and she is starring in a sex comedy.

So good for her. I admire what she's doing. And I also enjoy Jennifer Lawrence films and comedies in the summer. And I think it'll be fun. We haven't had a big fat comedy hit in the summer. And I think it'll be fun. We haven't had a big, fat comedy hit in the summer. I don't think that we're going to, but I will still enjoy it. Or I won't because it won't make me laugh.

I am absolutely intrigued. I don't know what to expect. The 16th, this movie comes out on June 23rd. June 16th is a loaded, loaded weekend. And so I'm kind of curious to see if this is like a palate cleanser. My number five does open on June 16th. I think just in limited release, but probably expanding throughout the summer. That's Asteroid City, the new Wes Anderson movie, which I heard about.

I think I first heard about it when i saw the french dispatch at tell you ride in 2021 and they showed the french dispatch but west was not there because he was in spain shooting asteroid city which we were told was his western but now that i've seen it looks much more to me like his spielberg homage have you you've seen seen asteroids no no just the trailer just the trailer. Just the trailer. Just based on what I saw which is a

you know a film about a kind of small community that may or may not be encountering a UFO. And I can't even read the cast list.

It's an extraordinary roster of names including Tom Hanks and Scarlett Johansson. And I love Wes Anderson and I love his movies. This is the first of two movies

he'll be releasing this year. I think also the wonderful story of Henry Sugar is coming out later this year. I think he's already at work on his next movie. Good for him. He, of course, makes these magical

dollhouse boutique dramedies that are getting increasingly ornate. But The French Dispatch, I think because of the period of time in which it was released, was vastly underrated and perhaps underseen. And people don't realize how interesting and fun that movie really is. I'm hopeful Asteroid City is the same, but with just a twinge of melancholy like Rushmore, like Moonrise Kingdom.

I get the impression that because it's about a single father in Jason Schwartzman handling his children, his myriad children, in a complicated moment that it has some of that melancholy that I like from Wes as well. So that's Asteroid City, June 16th. What's number four? Bottoms, another sex comedy. I did not know that this movie had a release date until you put it on your list.

August 25th. This was a Sundance breakout. This is the new film from Emma Seligman, who made Shiva Baby, which you and I both really enjoyed. It stars Rachel Sennett and Ayo Adebiri from The Bear and

looks completely delightful and, you know, I'm excited for some young women to just get out there this summer. Another messy summer comedy. That's how it was described. Premiered at South by Southwest. I think I've said this before,

but I've never been as regarded less interestedly than Emma Seligman regarded me on this podcast. She thought of me as an old loser and I appreciated it. Yeah. And I really like her strain of anxiety comedy.

And I think Rachel sent it. Like, could and should be our Madeline Kahn or like our Terry Garr. I'm open to it, yeah. In a lot of things, always brings a very specific energy to all of those things. Did you ever get around to Bodies, Bodies, Bodies? I feel like I've asked you this before. No, and you ask me every like three or four weeks. So I should,'s it was like

it came during my leave and so yeah like i'm going back but am i the only guy like the only person that likes that movie so far yeah it's one of the few no all of gen z loves them do they wow i thought that that wasn't true which is why it didn't pop yeah i think that it was like a thing yeah but gen z doesn't like talk about they don't post so yeah they don't post they're not your mutuals on litterbox as people are about you have no idea how many gen z followers i have the gen z i'm the pied piper of gen z on letterbox jesus christ they're like what is this movie cape fear um i'm looking forward to Bottoms as well August 25th

is the release date for that number four Indiana Jones on the dial of destiny let's go let's go I'm ready

I want it to be good yeah so do I June 30th Harrison Ford he's 118 years old he looks wonderful show some fucking respect

I am showing respect to Harrison Ford we're gonna do a massive Harrison Ford Hall of Fame episode that week I cannot wait I love Harrison Ford. We're going to do a massive Harrison Ford Hall of Fame episode that week. I cannot wait. I love Harrison Ford so much. He's so good. Phoebe Waller-Bridge. Love her. I love her too. This is the

first thing she's done in about 12 years. You know what? You need to stop holding it against people when they enjoy their lives. Well, I don't get to take a break. You know, I have to record all the time. These people are like, I made Fleabag time to sit on the beach for two years come on seems great good for her um what else is going on in Indiana

Jones James Mangold yeah perhaps the most trusted pair of hands in Hollywood can I ask you a question about the trailer and specifically the Indiana Jones theme song in the trailer yes is it like a remix does it sound a little different to you? I believe it might have a new motif. Yeah. But it is John Williams, isn't it? No, I mean, it's still the thing, but it just sounds like a little muted. They're not...

They're not zhuzhed up, you know, for 2023. Maybe it's just the theater that I heard it in where the audio is coming out. I need that shit to be blaring as loud as possible. I need the film to have 30% less bad CGI. Yes. Apply that note to every film released.

You know in Raiders of the Lost Ark when he grabs the idol and then he runs out and the giant boulder rolls after him? I do, yeah. Practical effect. Practical effect.

I understand. Like, you are preaching to the choir. The choir is me singing that I hate CGI. That being said, I love Indiana Jones movies. So do I. This is another one you put on the list. And I was like, okay, well, then I won't put it on mine.

But I, too, am looking forward to it. I had a wonderful time talking to James Mangold when Ford vs. Ferrari came out. He hosted me in his office. What's up, Bobby? Bobby just, like, immediately starts nodding. Yeah, that's right. James Mangold when Ford vs. Ferrari came out he hosted me in his office on the Fox lot what's up Bobby Bobby just like immediately starts nodding yeah that's right

Bob that's just such a Bob movie I just I love that movie so much and it's a great movie it's a really great movie but you know this is the guy who made Logan

this is a person who like with this kind of a big budget film knows what he's doing so I'm looking forward to this one okay what's your number three

number three is Past Lives which is the Celine Song movie, A24. It was a big deal at Sundance. Comes out June 2nd, stars Greta Lee and Teo Yu and John Magaro. Shauna Sina, I don't want you to say anything. Like I honestly, I really am anticipating this. It's the romantic drama.

It looks like very yearning and swooning and lovely. And I don't want a word from you. Honestly, I know it's bad podcasting, but I'm going to see it soon. I can't go this week because we're traveling. I'm really pissed. My husband's going without me. I'm also pissed about that. I'm excited for this film.

Next. This was me not saying a word about past lives. This film will be nominated for Best Picture. That's what I'm going to say. That's not a review. But that is getting my expectations up. God damn it. Well, that doesn't mean anything

because many bad films are nominated for Best Picture. So it's neither good nor bad. It's not a value judgment. It will be nominated for Best Picture. Okay, go ahead. I'll say one other thing about it, which is that I loved it. Okay.

Sorry. You broke the rule. Should we cut out me saying that I liked a movie that hundreds of people saw at Sundance? Who cares? Come on. It's like the most

critically acclaimed movie of the year. I just asked you to just respect my process. What is your process? You know my opinion about everything. You and I are about to go on a long overseas trip together.

Yes. And a lot of discussion has already occurred that may show up on a later podcast about how much you should ruin that discussion or not talk yes and this was one chance where i asked you not to talk you know and you you couldn't do it what what come on what's your number you don't talk is not the premise of the podcast right i i said that i was making a special exception because i didn't want you to read it.

I'm glad you liked it. What's your number three? My number three is The Boogeyman. Rob Savage is the director of this movie. He made a movie during COVID called Host, which was a Zoom horror movie. I don't think you saw this movie. I think you were pregnant when it was released.

Sierra and I spoke about it on pods. Very good. Very effective. Then he made another movie. You know, I don't have a lot of ideas for movies, but this is one idea that I did have for a movie once upon a time before this film was released, which was about a Uber driver who is a serial killer. And there've actually been two films that kind of have that premise. One is called Spree, which came out a few years ago. And then the other, this person's not quite a serial killer, but it's a kind of a haunted Uber

driver movie called Dash Cam, which I thought was really not good. I really didn't like it, but I thought it was effective in what it was trying to achieve, which was trying to get under your skin and irritate you because the Uber driver was really MAGA and really hateful and played by a young woman who was very effective in the role. I think Rob Savage is really, really good at filmmaking. And this is a classic, like indie horror director gets his studio shot. Chris Messina is the star. And it's like the boogeyman is in the house kind of a movie. Very, very classical.

Looks really well made. Early buzz is very good. Summer is tricky with horror movies. Sometimes it's a great time for a horror movie. Sometimes they dump stuff that isn't as effective and they wait until the fall for the good stuff. I got a good feeling about this one. It's June 2nd. It's really soon.

I probably would be seeing it this week if we were not traveling as well. So I'm holding space for The Boogeyman. Will you see that? No, you won't. Not unless you ask me to. Though I feel that I've been on a good run of seeing horror movies and or knowing about them.

I was having a conversation with a friend this week who's really into horror movies and was like asking about Skinner and Rink but couldn't remember the name. And then I did the voice and explained the whole thing. I was able to give like a capsule review. But you haven't seen that film. No. But I was like here is what Sean thought and here's what Chris thought. And I think like how they saw it had a little bit to do

with their experiences so maybe you should do it this way. So, it's like I saw it. I'm sorry I said anything about past lives. You're such a good friend just spreading the gospel

of me and CR talking about horror. Yeah. It's really easy to do. And she thought that this Skin and Mink voice was very funny. She's like,

that's a good bit. That's a CR creation. Yeah. No, I know. I credited him. I just, you know,

I'm just a roadshow, you know, just selling the gospel of the big picture wherever I go. We appreciate your marketing support. What is your number two? My number two is a film called Oppenheimer, written and directed by Christopher Nolan. I see. Sean, how are you feeling about Oppenheimer? I think you're back on like the good side of this. I'm going the other way.

No, no, you're not. Can I tell you, can I tell the story of what happened? Sure. I'm going to tell you the story of what happened from my perspective. Okay. This is completely how I feel. This is 100% the truth. This is not engagement performance.

This is a nightmare. This is the emotional circle of my journey. I sat down ready to talk about the trailer for Oppenheimer with you, and I wanted to point to Christopher Nolan's gifts as a technical filmmaker. And I started to describe the sound design of the trailer. And you, like the voracious demon hyena that you are, leapt upon my thoughtful criticism. One thing that really stood out to me was the sound design.

Yes, you already had your chance to do this. Now, be quiet for a moment. Christopher Nolan is one of the accomplished technical filmmakers do you remember practical you can't draw me out this time i i am covered in kevlar around your voice work and you set me off you set me up and you got you sent me down yeah troll rabbit hole yeah no i know i i do know that i drank my troll elixir like that i can tell it's like i did quite literally create a monster because i got you off kilter for a little while on mic which is like really funny but then like you you went through that process of not knowing

how to feel yes and feeling that everyone was going to hate you and all of your conflict and then you came out stronger it's so hard because i don't want to be a troll and in fact i don't like dumping on things and even things i don't like i want to speak thoughtfully about what i feel is not it doesn't work for films everything i said about oppenheimer's trailer was about the trailer it's not about the movie i haven't seen the movie everything i've said about christopher in the past of course I stand by with the exception of maybe some dumb comments I made about docudramas but uh that was really good you were like I can't know how things end okay no that was I was also you were just like philosophy is not a subject matter for films I was like okay no I didn't say that but I I I hold serve there you're it's fair

points anybody who's mad I understand I think Nolan is a deeply flawed director, right? But that doesn't mean that I don't like his movies. I like a lot of his movies. I like a lot of his movies a lot. I think I don't really like the two big movies that people like the most that much, Inception and Interstellar. And those are the ones that I've always had

the hardest time understanding why they are at the center of the movie culture. Because I think they're really, really badly told. Anyhow, I know we've litigated this. I've litigated this many, many times. Oppenheimer is interesting because it's going to confront me with the same thing. Yeah. It's going to be a very similar thing where it's going to be exactly everything I want, right? It's great performers. It's a master filmmaker. It's a mainstream movie with a big budget from a classic studio demanding that audiences show up on opening night and take in

the power of cinema, right? So it's all the, on paper, it's all the stuff I'm always whining about, which is one of the reasons why I think the troll power got activated and everybody is so fucking mad about whatever I said on that podcast. You also just activated like Twitter troll mode as well, which is your choice. That's how you live your life. That was a good move though. I mean, I feel good about that. I don't care about that. That's all fake. I think though that I promise to be 1 million percent honest about the movie and how I feel

about it and not do any troll shit when we talk about it on the episode. I don't even actually want to, I'm not actually not super interested in pursuing that line of conversation when we talk about it because it's a big movie. And if it's really great, I want to be able to kind of sincerely say it was great and if I have if I feel it has flaws it won't be a part of some performance

it will be like me trying to genuinely render my feelings on it and I'll be there opening night or whenever they let us go to a screening and I am actually

quite excited about it but there is as there always is something in the back of my mind that is saying like is he capable of this is he capable of that that Is he capable of that?

That's kind of how I feel when I watch his movies and especially when he's at his most ambitious. But we shall see. What is it about it that you're so excited about? I'm excited to go to the fucking movies and have Christopher Nolan just put something. And to have that sense of everyone going on opening night, like really excited about it. Cause I, and on something that I'm interested in, because that happens still sometimes for Marvel movies and other shit that is just not in my interest set. And so it feels like everybody's showing up.

Yeah. Everyone's showing up and everybody's talking about it. And you know, it's just like movies like with jazz hands. And so I'm excited about just like a big summer blockbuster you know like i just i enjoy that it's it does feel reminiscent of 1997 when when we went to the movies every week it definitely does um it is opening alongside another movie which we'll talk about shortly by number two is spider-man across the spider-verse part one i don't think i fully realized um

that this movie is co-directed by kemp powers who wrote soul because he did he was not a director on uh the last film peter ramsey i think was the director that he is replacing on this movie peter ramsey also very talented director um ken powers also wrote one night in miami he was a journalist and then he was a playwright now he's a screenwriter and a director i already was really excited about this movie that got me just a little bit more excited about it um i'm i'm hoping that we're going to be able to do a home and home with the midnight boys for this this film, which I think would be a lot of fun. Midnight Boys, of course, Van Lathan and Charles Holmes. If you're not listening to that podcast on the Ringiverse, please do.

I've been looking for an opportunity. We've never had both Van and Charles on at the same time. That's true. And I don't, have I ever podcasted with Charles? I don't think so. I've listened at home. Why don't you invite him to jam session? That's a great question.

I'll see if he's available. Think about it. I think he's actually quite good on celebrity. You're quite right. But yeah, that would be a good opportunity. And, you know, of course, the first Spider-Verse movie, one of my favorites of the last five years. So I'm fired up about this one. It's in two weeks.

When are we going to see it? I assume it's going to screen while we're out. Yeah. Not ideal. We'll make it work. You promise. Yeah. Not ideal. We'll make it work. You promise? Yeah. We're just working parents, balancing life and professional obligations.

It's what everybody's got to do. It's the tax you pay for being an adult. Did you know that Oscar Isaac and Daniel Kaluuya are lending their voices to this film? I did know that Oscar Isaac is because I thought it was notable that you still cut Oscar Isaac from the 35 over 35, even though he was going to be in your favorite movie. People didn't like that. Yeah. Issa Rae also providing her voice. Oh, that's cool.

Good for her. Okay. That's my number two. Number one. Barbie. I'm just, listen, I'm going to, I'm like Thelma and Louise. I'm holding thelma and louise i'm holding the hand we're going off the cliff together and maybe there will be a a better life on the other side of the cliff um are you are you scared um no i'm

not scared i think that i will enjoy it i'm already dreading the conversation around it and the take cycle and frankly all of the annoying men um on the internet referring to me no you're you're mostly behaving and i also know like in your heart you i want it to be good you want it to be good you really understand greta gerwig you know the script is co-written with noah baumbach margot robbie ryan gosling it's like if it's good you will be like this is great definitely there are a lot of boys you know like a lot of like sexist dudes on the internet who are like oh barbie and i just like it's probably gonna get like review bombed on all the yeah that's gonna be and i just like like that's fine i i don't actually have to interact with that because as you said like twitter does not exist and everyone knows imDb ratings are fake. And I have my own life out in the world as previously discussed,

but it, I mean, it'll be annoying, you know, and then you can't have a conversation about why it's like good or not good on its own merits. And then I'm like, okay,

do I have to be like strategically defensive about X, Y, Z, you know, whatever. So I'm not looking forward to that. Am I looking forward to watching this movie? Yes.

Do you need it to be incisive for it like is there a romp version of the movie which i think is unlikely i imagine that if if bomb back and gerwig are doing it i kind of can't um i mean if it's just air but barbie and it's like aren't barbie cool? On the one hand, I didn't play with Barbies, so I don't even know what I would be watching. Okay. Flip side. Yeah. You know, you're a powerful young woman. Thank you. With a full life. Yes. Thank you. And you talk about art professionally. Sure. So you are looking for something deeper in a movie like this. On the flip side, if it is something that is a little bit more sophisticated, which is what we've come to expect from these folks who made it, I think a lot of regular old moviegoers are going to be like, what the fuck is this? Now, the movie that I'm thinking about that I'm, I don't know if this is a positive or a negative

because I enjoyed this movie when I was a teenager, but I'm not sure that it really means anything is the Brady Bunch movie. Okay. I don't know. Have you seen that movie? I have, not in a long time the brady bunch movie was kind of an arch um kind of recontextualization of 70s culture where it was sort of like winking at the audience about how they knew that the nostalgia that they were pillaging was goofy but they could have some kind of ironic fun with it and it was it was clever and maybe a little too clever by half, but I still had fun and laughed. And I'm just spitballing here, but I feel like the Barbie, it's giving me a little bit of that energy. Like, we all know what we're doing here, wink, wink, wink.

But also, we have something smart to say. Sure. I mean, the Brady Bunch movie, who starred in it? Shelley Long and Gary Cole. Sure. Respectfully. Not Margot Robbie and and Gary Cole? Sure. Respectfully. Not Margot Robbie and Ryan Gosling.

Sure. Not made by Greta Gerwig. Not co-written by Noah Baumbach. So... I'm not saying it will be that. I'm just saying totally. Yeah, but I'm just like even if it were that

but with movie stars and some of the great screenwriters of our generation like that's good enough for me. I mean, it doesn't have to be citizen Kane. I'm really going through with Gosling. I think it could be a little bit.

I know. Don't step on it, but you guys are just absolutely lost. What if halfway through the movie, it just turns into drive. Just Ken goes, breaks bad. I mean,

I genuinely like, I don't think that's out of the, I mean, I don't think it will actually be drive, but to me at least, and I'm really sorry to be like a message board poster here, but to me it was clear that the trailer was all from like the first 20 minutes of the movie when they're like in Barbie land and you know, you see them go to like the real world. And I imagine that the, that world will look and feel different. I regret to inform you that you are a message board poster. I, you mean...

In that exact energy that you just had. No, I know. I believe that. My sense is that in the storytelling that this is what we will find is that it will actually just be the first 12 minutes and then it will all be a dream. I've been saying the phrase Wizard of Oz

in reverse a lot on the message boards. Exactly. There you go. Correct, Bobby. Just getting it a lot on the message boards. Yeah, exactly. There you go. Correct, Bobby. Just getting it started, getting the theories rolling. Yeah. Well, I don't think anybody really likes the first 10 minutes of The Wizard of Oz, so I'm not sure that that bodes well for the film Barbie. The black and white part.

Family drama. Come on. That's what you ask for all the time on the show. If Barbie is like a stormy black and white drama about Barbie's angst, that's not going to play either. Okay. Also, just like, how fucking fun is it

that it comes out on July 21st, same day as Oppenheimer. Yes. We're all going to go. Yeah, it's a blast. It's chaos for this show, though. Well, whatever.

We can do some work. Because I feel like both films are worthy of at least two full discussions. The way that our biggest movies that we most anticipate are full, worthy of some. That's great. We're going to work in July, then we're going to vacation in August.

That's how you live. You know? Okay. I'm with you. We'll be working in July additionally on July 12th. Yeah. That is a Wednesday. And that is when Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning Part 1 is released.

Incredible week for you. Do you want to line up what you've got going on that week? Tell me what I've got. Well, July 12th, Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning Part 1 is released. Incredible week for you. Do you want to line up what you've got going on that week? Tell me what I've got. Well, July 12th, Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning Part 1 comes out. July 13th. My daughter turns two years old. Your daughter turns two years old. I'm told that the weekend of July 15th or 16th, there will be a party.

There will be a party. Am I invited? You are one of the signature guests are is there going to be cake for adults at the party because this is one of my things i don't feel that children's birthday parties are including adults in the cake enough i think bobby wagner is going to be in los angeles at this time am i right not for that weekend only i'll be leaving the week before damn oh well you're missing out on a party two-year-old's birthday party what's cooler than not for that weekend. Only I'll be leaving the week before. Damn. Oh,

well, you're missing out on a party. Two year old's birthday party. What's cooler than that? Will you be dressing up as Bluey? I hadn't thought of that, but maybe I should. When I'm,

when I first moved to California, I was living with my cousin who had a baby. And then I, you know, I lived there for four more years after that. And so I went to a lot of two year olds birthday parties. Did you eat the cake? No, I'm not really much of a cake person. Cutting and bulking, you know?

He's always thinking about- Right, I forgot about that. I'm just kind of like, I'm going to a birthday party. Like, when did we give up on cake? Like, just because I had a child doesn't mean I don't also want cake. I served a great many cupcakes on Mother's Day. Really? Yeah.

Oh, we didn't get cupcakes. Fuck. You should have let Zach know. Sorry. Do you have any leftover? Yeah, they're mini cupcakes. Okay. Can you bring them on Wednesday?

Or will they be gone? Will you eat them all at like 2 a.m.? They won't be gone. I need to let Eileen take the flavors that she wants. Okay. And I don't know what those are now. I ate the peanut butter and jelly cupcakes. Oh, okay.

They were delicious. Wow. Anyway, Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning. I've been waiting five years for a Mission Impossible movie. Actually, Bobby and I were just talking about how... Did you say it was your first interview? The first interview. The first time I ever worked on the big picture was the Macquarie interview for the last Mission Impossible.

Chris from Macquarie, who was a fabulous guest. And that was a nice entryway for you to join the show. Yeah, I think we all got off on the right foot, you know? You, me, Chris, Tom. It was just great stuff. Bob, if you're in LA, maybe they'll screen it for us while you're here.

Maybe. Yeah, that would be really the totemic victory for me. It's definitely in play. I'm so fired up. I can't fucking wait. Me too. I mean, this would obviously be

probably one or two on my list, but you already made it number one. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, we have shared this franchise over the years. Yeah. We believe it is the great kind of mainstream movie franchise of our time. And Tom's very hot right now, coming off his 35 over 35 number one slot.

Yeah. That was impressive. Rumored romance with Shakira in Miami. I do not believe that that's real, but that's okay. I don't either, but both of their publicists are just really putting in the work. Not just Tom's, but Shakira's as well. She's had a lot to manage.

I shouldn't assume that Shakira's publicist is a woman. Shakira's publicist has had a lot to manage in the last six months. Cruz versus Lewis Hamilton is a real head versus my heart situation, where I'm like, Lewis Hamilton just should be dating Shakira because those are two of the most beautiful... Was Lewis Hamilton dating Shakira? That was just situation where I'm like Lewis Hamilton just should be dating Shakira because those are

two of the most beautiful that was just like well they were at the race and like depending on which you know

tabloid got which rumor planted by the publicist she was you know in front of the cameras with Lewis

or in front of the cameras with Tom if you could be rumored to be dating someone in the cultural sphere right now.

Yeah. Who would you pick? Jordan Peterson? Who would you pick? That's really rude. Alexander Skarsgård. Oh, okay. Yeah, just really powerful.

My guy just calling in from his shitty hotel room in New York somewhere. This is crazy. I mean, crazy. Love that. What a king. Okay. My answer is Joel Edgerton for that question

you want to be rumored to be dating Edgerton oh because you just Bobby we have a lot to talk about later this week

big pod coming up big pod Fast X and Master Gardener coming up soon absolutely cursed episode I can't wait I'm so excited this is the best

best idea I've ever had to talk about those two things together bunch of other movies that we haven't talked about that are also coming out this year. Elemental, new Pixar movie.

The Meg 2, The Trench, which is the inspiration for Garbage Fish, which will be a lot of fun. Junk Aquatics is my alt title for that. Junk Aquatics,

that's good. Insidious, the Red... Wait, did you guys see The Meg? Did you guys see the first Meg? Yeah. The Meg 1. That was like a big ringious the Red. Wait, did you guys see The Meg? Did you guys see the first Meg? Yeah. The Meg 1. That was like a big ringer movie.

Was it? I don't. It was a while ago. It was a few years ago. Yeah, but everyone was like, it's the, you know, the shark. It's The Meg. The Megalodon. Yeah.

One horror movie that is coming out. So we didn't talk about birthday weekend stuff. Oh, like your and my birthday weekend. Because our birthday is, I think, fall midweek this year. Yeah. Mine's on Wednesday. Is yours on a Wednesday too? Tuesday, I think.

But yeah. So it's that middle. So I would claim the 28th is my birthday weekend. Okay. And the films that are being released that weekend are The Haunted Mansion. Which. Right. Could be good. No, I don't want to do that. You don't want to join me to see The Haunted Mansion, which could be good.

No, I don't want to do that. You don't want to join me to see The Haunted Mansion? I mean, if we're going to make everyone go to the movies, let's just go see Dead Reckoning again. It's not a bad idea. But the film Talk to Me is being released that weekend. I've already seen this movie because it played at Sundance. But I want to see it on a big screen. I saw it at home.

And A24 picked this up. It's a horror movie. I think it's made in New Zealand. It's fantastic. Really good. Really messed up. Can I see it?

I don't know if you can see it. Okay. It's really messed up in a good way. It's going to be a lot of fun in a movie theater over the summer. Okay.

So I'm thinking about that. Are we still doing birthday movie? Are you asking like is that still a tradition? Well, yeah, I just... I see all the movies like three months in advance. I know, me too.

Well, not three months, but I see a lot of them in advance, plus someone's got to be with the child, you know? Well, on my birthday, I think it's reasonable to ask my wife to hang back. But so then she's not... That was the fun of birthday movie in years past that we all went together,

including to Mission Impossible. We went to Matsuhisa after that. That was sick. That was an amazing day. That was incredible. That was one of the great birthdays. I know. We can't get that back.

Right. So I'm just like, we should, we got to re-examine. I note here on August 4th, the weekend of your birthday, that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles full in mutant mayhem is being released. Could be a good one. Have I ever birthday, that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles full-on mutant mayhem is being released?

Could be a good one for you. Have I ever told you about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and me growing up? Which, I don't know why. No, that's a cursed sentence. I don't know why I, like, became fixated that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

was, like, something I needed to watch, but I wasn't allowed to watch it on the weekend or something. This is why you're in this world with us. This is why you felt you needed to know about TMNT. I would wake up like before school to watch the cartoon Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles because apparently that was like allowed

if I got up at like 6 a.m. You're more of like a Raphael, Donatello, Leonardo, Michelangelo. Raphael is cool but rude. Obviously, Iangelo. Raphael is cool but rude. Obviously, I'm Raphael. He's cool but rude? Is that his persona? Yeah, yeah. Do you know what weapons

he wielded? Michelangelo is a party dude. Teenager, teenager turtles. You guys still know this song? What are we doing, heroes in a half shell? Turtle power. Wow.

Come on. Wow. This wasn't central to your life um no it was i didn't just want to eat i did not and avoid and fight rats you know i know no they did not fight rats they were trained by rats oh yeah that's true they fought shredder and the foot plan right sorry um up until that moment just now, I was like, this is some extraordinary Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles mythology recapping. So you were Raphael. Yeah. I mean,

Michelangelo was obviously the pick. What are you talking about? I'm personally more of a Leonardo as a man. I know. Right. Yes. But I'm a leader,

but I have no sense of humor. Right. But Michelangelo. He's the party dude. I know. I understand. Yeah. Raphael never heard

a person this is why you're you thank you so much thank you you're one of one great stuff uh Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

Bob yeah I always played Leonardo in the video he was good he had the uh he had the sword yeah exactly which is like kind of

the easiest one to play with if you're kind of a scrub which I was at the beginning of the game did you play the arcade game no the arcade game you're kind of a scrub, which I was at the beginning. Did you play the arcade game? No. The arcade game was awesome.

That was a great arcade game. Arcade game episode? I really only played Pac-Man. And Ms. Pac-Man, obviously. Sometimes when I think you're the absolute best, you say something and you're the absolute best.

What do you want from me? I wasn't taken to the arcade regularly. It's just painful. You know what I mean? X-Men, the arcade game? Now, that was a game. How would I have access? What about the Simpsons arcade game?

That was a game. When you would use Bart's skateboard to batter bullies? Oh my goodness. You guys don't know. People don't know. They don't realize what we used to have. This used to be an incredible land of opportunity.

Did you just become a return guy because of arcade games fucking bill clinton was in office if you could buy one i was going to the arcade by myself meeting up with my friends drinking a lot of coca-cola one from one arcade game for my home yeah holy shit you've ever thought about this before space this seems like this is street fighter 2 street fighter 2 Street Fighter 2 Street Fighter 2 is the absolute best game ever Street Fighter 2

I was I bowled as a teenager as a preteen I was in a bowling league I was a pretty good bowler and the arcade games

at the bowling alley and every Thursday afternoon my mom would drop me off at the bowling alley and she would give me five dollars and quarters and I was fucking living I would get a pizza yeah and soda me and my best pals on my bowling team what was the age of the other people on the bowling team

38 39 that's literally what I'm imagining I'm imagining like a bunch of Chris Ryans and you no no no we were like 11 and did you have your own bowling shoes uh no we rented bowling shoes but i did have my own bowling ball wow it said sean on it how heavy was it i believe it was a 10 okay and uh i averaged about 170 175 that's good for 11 or 12 years old i thought was pretty darn good. That's pretty good, yeah. And we never won the title. What's your game like these days? It's been a while because I think one of the signature

COVID spreaders is sticking your hand inside of a bowling ball. So I haven't been in the alleys lately but I would like to go back. In fact, I'd love to go to Highland Park Bowl with you.

I was just thinking to myself. I was just having like an honest solo thought about how insufferable you would be to bowl against. Because I would just dominate you? And then you would yell really loudly. Yahtzee! Yeah, and also just like...

No, no, no. I think we could get in his head. We could really knock him off his game. If he gave in to Oppenheimer that easily, just think how easy it would be to throw him off and bowl him. But you do a lot of just like Copland. Like, you blew it! You know? But you do like a lot of just like Copland, like you blew it, you know, like when you're competitive, you get really loud also. And when you're being negative, you're like loud and mean.

Bob just tried to say that he thinks he can get in my head and he has no, he's never because he works at the ringer. I have to be on my best behavior, but you've seen the real me. Remember when you guys briefly had like a ringer basketball league and then you had to retire because you got into it. Yeah, because I put a shoulder at Sean's chest. with his shoulder it's just it's not untrue it's not untrue i played for two seasons in that league and for a deeply old man with a bad back i quitted myself well but i did have to retire yeah um i i learned recently that someone who was a former peer of mine here at the ringer who is an exceptional basketball player is still playing in one of those leagues and uh yeah the same age yeah colin he has like four percent wow good for him yeah colin is an absolute freak right yeah but he also he is a lovely individual who i think like doesn't

like eat processed like grains or you know anything i thought that he's it's he's dedicated to the pursuit yes and it's paying off he's still playing ball and what am I doing? Crying about my back while I lift up my daughter. Right. Not great. Should be a great summer movie season. Pretty excited.

We will be with you. We sure will. Through all the weeks. Through July, June and July. And then August we have special treats lined up.

We shall discuss the Meg 2 colon the trench. Yeah. And then we shall depart for a period of time. That's right. I might actually be on vacation for that episode now that I think about it.

I'm starting a little, a couple days earlier than you. And you've missed out on Garbage Fish. Yeah. That's up to you. Okay. In the meantime, what's coming later this week? Oh, I already mentioned. Fast X and Master Gardener.

But first, let's go to my conversation with the writer-director of BlackBerry, Matt Johnson. Mixing it up with Matt Johnson today. Matt, thanks for being on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Matt, I'm a big fan of your films. And I was wondering if we could start by asking you this question. How do you describe the kinds of films that you make? What genre would you say you work in? How would you describe the tone of your movies? Because I feel like they're quite unique. Honestly, it depends who I'm giving that answer to.

If I'm talking to film students, then I sort of talk about the intention. Because I think that's easier than putting them in a category. But I think generally they're best described as fake documentaries. And that's kind of clumsy as a term, but it's useful in terms of the grammar they use and in some ways the intention. what I tell people is my goal is to make work where as you watch it, you are constantly asking yourself questions, not only about its construction, but about its intention. So that is what I love about cinema. This is what I learned from F for Fake, which is probably my favorite movie. That cinema and magic, live magic, to me are the only two art forms where you can watch them twice at the same time, where you're watching the story, watching the characters, and you're appreciating it

on that level. But you can also watch it at the meta level at the exact same time and ask yourself, well, how did they do this? Why are they doing this? How's the director doing this trick? Is this real? Which is my favorite question when I'm watching a movie. And so all my work is at some level trying to get at that through various ways. I love live magic. So you've already, you've switched me on at the very beginning of this conversation. I ask you that question in part because this film, your new film, Blackberry, feels like at least an evolution from what could very easily be identified as sort of a fake documentary in the first couple of films and felt maybe in a lineage with some things that were happening in our

culture. Christopher, guest movies, The Office, some other things you could compare it to. Guest is a huge influence, yeah. But BlackBerry is different. Forgive me for using this phrase, but it feels more like a real movie. And I was wondering if you could talk about maybe that decision and how you thought about bringing along what you had previously done and that ethos that you described into something that is slightly more conventional. Absolutely. The right away. And I think if there's any filmmakers listening, you can sympathize with this idea. I had been working in like a very, very niche indie, almost like cult film world for so long and uh which i love i mean that's it's basically all my movies and i thought almost in a prankish way which maybe seems cynical

uh but i should make a movie that on its face seems like a made for tv movie it made seems like the broadest possible almost stupidly broad concept and and this was in some ways before the kind of ip stampede that is occurring at the moment but the idea of a smartphone that's forgotten that is truly a has-been product that really is on nobody's mind seemed like the perfect capsule to do the style of movie that i make. And with that as kind of the pitch, everything just sort of evolved into it. And then all of a sudden I was writing a script, which I'd never done before. I always just do improvised films. And then all of a sudden I'm hiring actors who are expecting things to be done in a certain way, shooting on a schedule. All these things were

brand new to me. And so it was almost like, you know, you think you can put one toe in the quicksand and it'll be fine, but then eventually, no, you're making a pretty standard movie. Yeah. So did you feel like you were transforming as a filmmaker in real time as you were doing it? How did you feel about that? Well, you know, in the moment it's happening so quickly that you don't even realize it. And I'm of course, trying to hold on to this feeling of spontaneity and chaos, which I love while at the same time working within the machine of, okay, you're shooting for 10 hours. This is exactly the scenes that you're shooting.

You have exactly this much time to get exactly this much coverage, which was so foreign to the way I normally shoot things. But I consider it in many ways a learning experience. And we found time and time again, opportunities to create this same kind of, well, unexpected documentary-like, like what is happening within the context of a biopic where everything is already pre-planned. Where did it come from? Was it an attempt?

It was a book. Oh, sorry. Well, I mean, so it's based on a book and I assume that you had read that book or at least maybe thought about the actual Blackberry. But I mean, for you personally, did you say to yourself, I want to kind of elevate my status as a filmmaker? I want a different kind of experience. Why did you decide to make something that is slightly more of a normal movie?

Yeah, a broader film. I'll tell you, quite openly, it was that I work in Canada and I live in Toronto. And I was in the midst of a larger discussion with the Canadian funding bodies about how we can create a national voice for filmmakers. And how we can create, I guess, a better platform for young people to make their first features. I know it's a strange thing to have as kind of like a cause, but this is like something I've been trying to champion for about 10 years. How can we get more young Canadians making first features?

And I was finding that the amount of political power I could wield was more or less equivalent to the success of the films I was making. And again, I mean, it seems bizarre to call a film that you made a tool to try to change things politically in your country, but I thought, oh, I should make something that is more broadly appealing. But at the same time, it was really an opportunity to work with real actors, which is something i'd always always wanted to do and i knew that was only going to happen inside something that was um well at the very least slightly broader than the bizarre films i made before so did that lead to you going on a hunt for a story that could be more widely seen or no in fact it it kind of began because the book

was presented to me uh by a production company in in Toronto with the idea that maybe I would write something with my writing partner, Matt Miller. And very quickly in reading this book, I realized that this is not a book about people who invented the first smartphone. independent filmmakers and what it's like to make your first movie and how that changes all your relationships changes your life and makes you question how far ethically you are willing to go to stick to your principles and uh and as soon as i made that connection i was like oh this is basically just the story of my life how did you find adaptation of i love it i think i think adaptation is like a gift and uh I wish I'd known about it earlier because what's so great is that it's almost like having a, I'm not a musician, but having a jazz standard and then just being able to vamp and improvise on it. It's awesome because especially when you're doing something from real life, it's like you kind of have a skeleton there already and then you get to choose what you keep and what you leave you get to choose what you invent you get to choose like how you characterize people

and how far away you like like get from the truth and when you decide to stick exactly to it and it's kind of what i was talking about before then your audience gets this amazing experience which i love when i'm watching true stories which is what of this has been really, really twisted and what of this is real. And I love that feeling because at least, well, in BlackBerry, it's never what you think. Like so much of the story is so completely outrageous that you think, well, this must be made up for sure. And, and I love that that's not always true. I'm sure every moron with a microphone is asking you this question, but did you own a BlackBerry? No.

In fact, I never touched one. But my art director, Adam Belanger, put one in my hand on the first or second day of production. What did you think of that when he put it in your hand? To be totally honest, I was like, I'm surprised this product did as well as it did. Okay. So conversely, I have the exact opposite feeling. Which I've heard. Which I've heard many times.

This was actually quite a magical device. Yes. And to have an emotional relationship to a piece of hardware is stupid. No. A lot of people did and I did. Oh, I disagree. I think that there's a reason that products wind up being more powerful than their function. Yeah.

And that is that we form intimate relationships with these things. Well, I mean, that, at least for me, and this may not be true for, say, people who are younger than us or significantly older than us, but I think that there will be a sector of the world that sees this movie, a generation that experienced the Blackberry, that will actually identify deeply with the characters who sought to create it in a kind of weirdly profound way. And it's interesting that you didn't even have that relationship to the Blackberry as you were pursuing it, because that is one of the reasons why the film resonated so deeply with me

is, you know, Jay Baruchel's character is sort of co-founder of the company believes in what he's made. He has an almost Pygmalion relationship to it. And, and I love exploring that because that's something I understand as a filmmaker way too well, right? Falling in love with your creation and being like, don't change it. Don't change it. It's perfect. It's perfect. Because to judge it is to judge me because I

made it. And so it's me, right? I put my soul into this and that I thought Jay delivered like beautifully. You get the sense that when people are saying, when you see that, that, uh, the pitch of Steve Jobs talking about the iPhone and he puts a Blackberry up in his presentation.

He's like, look at these clowns. They've got keyboards on them whether you need them or not. And you see Baruchel's face going, excuse me? What are you talking about? You're talking about me. But I totally appreciate that.

And I'll counter with the idea that I think that had I been a real BlackBerry maven, this would have been a very different film. How so? Because I think that I would be much more interested with the technical creation of it. I think I'd be charting the

product. I think it would be much more technophilic. I think that there'd be way more closeups of Blackberry chassis getting computer chips installed in them. Like you would almost be Cronenbergian obsession with the physical, right? Like you'd watch these things come together in an almost sexual union. And me, I was just way more interested in the psychology of the people. And I think that in some ways saved the story from being ephemeral,

which was my big worry when I started making it. I'm very interested in you working with actors. Both Jay and Glenn Howerton are amazing in this movie. Thank you. I agree. I agree. And part of the reason why the film is so fun is because there's this brilliant contrast in their performances in the movie. What was it like for you to have authentically experienced, if not movie stars, movie star types, you know, like really known character actors?

It was a dream and it all of my fears of thinking i would need to over explain things thinking that i was going to need to really um well i mean that's just it we're evaporated on the first day i mean i'm so ignorant obviously that i don't realize that these people are really in they're the heads of their characters departments they know their characters better than me and so the decisions those guys are making they're so smart that's why i love working with comedians like when they're on every choice they're making is interesting and it puts directors in the position of being like all right well i guess this was all just a gift to me in the editing room

and I'm going to pick what I like. It was, yeah, it was incredible. I loved it. I loved it. The entire cast, everybody I worked with, I loved working with all of them. Did you find that a lot of the people

who are signing on to this, and that includes Jay and Glenn and, you know, Carrie Elwes and Saul Rubinick and this murderer's row of character actors, did they go back and watch The Dirties? Did they watch Operation Avalanche?

Why did they sign on to this? Universally, they all said they just loved the script. I think that they spared me in saying, no, I've never seen The Dirties. I have no idea who you are. And to be honest, you are the thing making me most insecure about this film. Are you being modest?

Like, you think that's actually true? Oh, no, I think I... You're very self-possessed. I find that hard to believe. In what sense? Well, you are a very good communicator. You know, this is what Michael Ironside said to me on the telephone.

So I call him, he's in the car with his wife, they're driving somewhere and he's just read the script. And I say, I'm telling him about Verhoeven, how much I love him, how I think he's perfect for this role. And he hasn't said much.

And the phone call, I'm like, well, he's not really saying anything. He said, you know, I like you. You're a communicator. Then he hangs up. And then two weeks later, he's in Toronto. It's a really funny thing. Was it difficult to raise money for the movie? Well, again, I'm in Canada.

So I'm blessed in the sense that if you have a project that, that can capture the imagination of telefilm Canada, then you have a good portion of your financing already ready. Now, listeners should, should realize that's only if you're making movies that are quite cheap by American standards in, in us dollars. I think the budget of this movie is like five and a half or $6 million,

which, which may seem like a lot, but it's quite cheap by american i think when you see the film you'll realize that that's that that's quite accurate that it is quite going a long way no no no uh i ask that in part because um there's like a it's a tall task i think you're working over a period of time here and you have a lot kind of a lot of story to convince it condensed into a feature film and i'm wondering if you felt like it was harder to make a film with a bigger budget and actors like this absolutely yes yeah absolutely

yes well look the everything comes with baggage and so as soon as you start spending money at that level then your crew winds up having a support team attached to it. And so it's like you're going into war and you know how you see like the sniper will have the guy who needs to lie down with him with his arm over him and just control his breathing. It's like everything has, there's so many more people who this is, um, was not my experience. Like they're not the people that I'm used to communicating with. I've got six friends. I make all my movies with them. And now all of a sudden there's 40 people on set. And I am such

a people pleaser in a way that I am trying to have connections with everybody. And you realize as a director, you just can't do that. Let me ask you a specific question about that. What was something that is done or happens on a $5 million movie that you didn't know about or understand before you started making a $5 million movie relative to the previous films you'd made? Blocking. Explain that to the audience. What's different? Well, what's different is that when you're making a movie with a huge crew, it's not enough that you, your friends, and the actors know what you're going to do.

You need every single person on the set to know exactly where the actors are going to move all the time. And that's from every single department from wardrobe to hair and makeup to the electrical team. And that in my mind, I hate rehearsals. I never want to do rehearsals ever because what would always happen to me is you discover something magic in rehearsals and then try to chase that. And then you're caught in this uncanny valley moment where you're, you're on set trying to pursue something that happened by accident and you never get it again. And so we would always just shoot our rehearsals. But when you block, it's almost like you go through a pretend version of the scene showing the entire crew, how you're going to do it. And I found that so painful and laborious because you're begging

that something good doesn't happen and you never want to be rooting against yourself. That's a horrible position to be in. Like when you put your hands together and pray that nothing good happens. Yeah, that's a bad deal with God. And so, yeah, that was a major change that I didn't like at all. Given that circumstance where you had to go through those processes and it's this bigger crew and a bigger project in general, you, you also acted in this film as you did in the previous films. You have a really significant role in this film. Uh, was that harder to do than it had been previously?

No. I mean, it was hard in the sense that I couldn't be at the monitor as much as I wanted to be. And sometimes we would really make mistakes because, uh, my cinematographer and I, it's happened rarely because we're best friends, but, uh, we could be on a different page about how we wanted to cover something because people should know the film because it is sort of shot like a, like a fake documentary in a way. Um, and we're using lenses that are so long. They're like national geographic wildlife photography lenses. And in many cases, the cameras are up to like 100 meters away from the actors the camera work needs to be so precise and so if i'm in a scene and we're shooting take after take after take we just didn't have the schedule that would allow us to take long

breaks and review everything so sometimes we get into trouble with that but generally i actually found it a lot less stressful i love this quote, if you want something done, ask a busy person. And I feel like by doing many things on your own film, you wind up not being such a perfectionist about anyone and you can get into a much better state of flow because you've got to act and you have to direct. And it's like you're just in the mix all the time rather than, you know, that feeling of being at war where it's like, you know, total silence, nothing, and then warfare and fighting. And that I find very stressful.

Was that decision to use the long lenses at a great distance just to retain the documentary approach to the filmmaking? We stole it from that D.A. Pennybaker film, The War Room. And before that, a really great documentary about this Sondheim play called Company. And we're watching these thinking like, oh my God, they're able to hide from their subjects while still seeming so intimate. And in the Penny Baker film, what's so interesting, if you don't know it, it's the documentary about Clinton's campaign. And at the beginning of the movie, the cameras are so relaxed, shoulder

mounted, just following Clinton. They're right in his face and he doesn't care because at this point he's kind of a nobody. But then as the stakes of the race get higher and higher and it's like, oh my gosh, he may win. The cameras start to really need to be away from him. And he's much more cautious about how he appears on camera and we wanted this film to sort of track that same energy of becoming more and more impersonal as the documentarians were like okay well now these guys are big shots their company's worth 20 billion dollars they're not going to let us in their office and put a camera in their face and so the lenses had to get longer and longer and longer and farther and farther away while still trying to have that

feeling of oh i'm capturing it It's just happening in the moment. Like, uh, I don't know if you've seen the documentary crumb. Uh, oh yeah. So this is a masterpiece and a huge, huge influence on me. And, uh, the moments in that film I like the best are when I'm watching this and I'm like, I cannot believe they're letting this be filmed. I can't believe it. And right.

It feels like they've hired actors to play his family members it's it's well it's an unbelievable movie it makes Grizzly Man look like Sesame Street

and I I yeah I thought obviously we're not making that film but just to get that same feeling in this movie of I can't believe

I get to watch this and these people aren't saying stop this is a bit of field but is there a part of you that wants to just make a documentary, like find characters that are actually in the world so you can do that? It's funny.

I get asked that a lot and sure, but then all of a sudden for me, in a way, the magic is gone because then there's no question. Then it's all real. And so when I'm watching it, I'm like, okay, well, that's just what they did. There are miraculous stories. Capturing the Freedmen to me is a major influence. I'm watching that like, what? This is crazy.

And it gives me an incredible feeling. But I know it's all real. And so I don't get that parallel viewing experience. And so that's why I love adding a piece of artifice inside it you know like just just a shard in the mixture so that you as an audience never totally know and i feel like that that again this is my addiction to cinema is that it's the only thing that can do this is rim one a a beloved or celebrated company in canada does it have a public reputation massive and because probably the most successful

Canadian company of all time. I think you could say by far. And in terms of its influence worldwide, it's outsized. Like you could say that only next to hockey is it. That's so interesting because obviously there's this massive fetishization of these kinds of products in our

culture around the world that company i know that they do a lot of other things that are not creating hardware in this same way these days but in america at least as far as i know it doesn't have the brand name recognition zero that apple has oh it's not oh it's not even close well you know this is in some ways getting at the idea why blackberry failed and apple didn't, it's not, oh, it's not even close. Well, you know, this is in some ways getting at the idea why BlackBerry failed and Apple didn't. And it's because Apple and Steve Jobs had a vision for culture. They had a vision for the future. They were not making a product. They were making in some ways a kind of way of life, like it or not. Whereas the BlackBerry and these engineers in Canada were solving a technical problem. They were hackers. They had 2020 vision, but only six feet in front of their face, right? They're trying to figure out how to get email and

light data onto a cellular phone, and they were going to jam it together in an improvised way. And they were not thinking, oh my gosh, and this is going to be a communications revolution, right? That wasn't their vision. And so their brand didn't really have the same kind of sexiness. It wasn't, I'll put it this way. They were not a lifestyle brand, right? Whereas Apple is a lifestyle brand. So speaking of brands, you mentioned this IP stampede. Your film is coming out at this really weird moment. Isn't it quite bizarre, isn't it? Tetris, Air, Flamin' Hot Cheetos film, even the Super Mario Brothers movie. Absolutely. There's a wave of nostalgia bound,

product oriented narrative feature films happening right now. Specifically targeted at this 80s, 90s time. Our demographic, frankly. And those of us with children also, which I find really interesting. Your film, frankly, doesn't have a whole lot to do with, I think, a lot of the arcs of a lot of those movies because Blackberry is not an extant product. And so there is a distinction there, but I'm wondering kind of, as you've been doing interviews and thinking about your film and how it fits in this moment, we've arrived at like, how did we get here? Why are these things now the objects of fascination for our feature film culture right now? I've had time to think about this because

obviously you're completely correct. I've been asked this all the time and I didn't have a ready-made concept because I felt like I made this movie with the intention of it being, well, a piece of cultural feedback in that way. But after having this conversation enough, I think the best I can do is thinking that we are at a very bizarre time culturally, and I don't think there's a lot of stable ground. And I, I think that subconsciously this, this deluge of films about products and technology that we now live with today is in some ways, and the desire to see these films also is a way for us to try to understand the present moment, right? I mean, film is in story has always told us who we are typically through myth and uh i love this bjork

quote i don't know if you know this but bjork was asked what her job is and uh she said my job as an artist is to connect the myths of my past with the future this is this is this is bjork's take on her life and and and i think that is, it sums it up perfectly. Like, I think that's what film, when it's at its best, is doing. And at some very clumsy level, maybe that's what the culture is asking for with these movies.

Is there any part of you that's annoyed that this is happening while your film's coming out? I'm blessed. I'm blessed. Really? This movie is like a tiny Canadian movie that is made by me and my friends

and costs no money. And we're in the same conversation as these $80 million Apple movies. And there's no writer at the bottom of the articles that said, P.S., Matt Johnson is not a serious person. Do you know what I mean? There is no end where they then differentiate us because they say this was made for no money. So it's a true gift from a marketing point of view and i'm not so uh what is it uh um i'm i'm i'm happy to take that yeah i'm not i'm not put off by it i've personally been working through it i really like what you just said and i think that there's a lot

of truth to that i'm wondering if there is not being on stable ground is a thoughtful way of putting it. If I'm feeling a little bit more cynical, I'm worried about a kind of like generational cultural bankruptcy where like all we have to reflect on is stuff we made. And we become Ouroboros. Sure. And, and I can understand that, but I don't want, I would never never be myself so cynical as to think that the invention of products that shaped populations of people are valueless from a like a divine point of view and i know that sounds like so ridiculous but you know things catch on for a reason people are interested in we'll take something as benign as the video game Tetris, okay? Right? Like that, there is a spiritual element to that. Whether you want to admit it or not, right?

This is a hugely successful property where you drop blocks and clear rows. And people are mesmerized by that. And in that, there is some kind of truth. I don't know what it is. But to completely ignore it and just say, oh oh this is just an addictive piece of software and that's all it is is in some ways denying the humanity in you that makes you love tetris and don't do that because then all you're doing is is denying parts of yourself that maybe you're not proud of but must be there your film doesn't remind me of any of those films that are coming

out right now it does remind me a lot of the social network. I assume you're getting that note from people. Oh, of course. Of course. I assume it was some sort of influence or something that you thought about at least in constructing. Oh, in a major way. I mean, all you need to see is like the last shot of our film to see that we're, we're trying to, at least in our own Canadian way, be like, uh, you know, we can play too. Right. Which, which I, which I don't mind. I mean, there's a, I don't think that there's any shame and it's something I tell to film students all the time that like, you should be taking as much stuff as you can from things you appreciate.

And I think Finch is a master. Uh, I, I watch his films and the thing I can't get out of my head is that they're also perfectly placed, like perfectly placed constantly. And I think I felt comfortable doing something in a similar space because all of my work is trying to be found, not placed, right? I'm trying to have total chaos where my cameras discover something that nobody was expecting to see, including me. And, uh, uh i think if if that wasn't my approach i'd probably be like well why would i ever just do a canadian social network like there's no purpose to it but because our approaches are more or less the polar opposite

of one another i felt uh like in some ways it was an honor as opposed to a uh a judgment it's it's definitely a a positive comparison that I'm making. I mean, it's one of my favorite films of the 20th century. Oh, I take it that way. Absolutely. I hope this doesn't seem insulting, but it seems like

maybe people like this film more than you were expecting. It was a massive surprise. Like Berlin, it seemed like it played really well at the festival. Everywhere it's screened, I've been blown away

that people are even get... When people start laughing, I go, wow, wow. And I'm going to tell you a story. This is a great filmmaker story that, that, um, that shocked my friends and I, and that's that we were so worried that people weren't going to think it was funny that we packed the first 15 minutes with so many ridiculous jokes, just nonstop jokes. And, and Glenn, by the way, had the same fear. He was like, nobody's going to think I'm funny. This is never going to work. Then we screened in Berlin to a German audience who were in hysterics for two hours straight, hysterics, like screaming hysterics. And after that screening, my editor, Kurt Lobb got an early flight home, went back to Toronto and cut out all those jokes

because we realized we do not need these. We've gilded the lily in such a brutal way and we took about two and a half minutes of jokes. Really? Yes. I wonder what version I've seen. I'm not sure. You've seen the right version. The new version. Yeah, you've seen the new version. Interesting. That's fat. That's so...

It speaks to my insecurity and to the fact that we thought that the tone was not going to be apparent to audiences generally we thought it was going to be like people are going to think oh this is a drama this is drama i can't laugh i can't laugh and uh especially because of glenn's characterization we thought people were going to think oh yeah this is all serious as death but but we were surprised and uh we never thought people would think this movie is as fun as we thought it was. And so, again, it might just be our Canadian-ness.

Well, I had the opposite relationship to it that you just described. And the reason I asked you how you would describe your films and the tone of them at the beginning of this conversation was because when I sat down, I think I was expecting a comedy. Right. I was expecting a Jay Baruchel, Glenn Howerton comedy from the guy who made The Dirties. Yeah. And by the end of it, I was like, this is a very moving story about creation and failure. And so I was even more impressed by it with a different set of expectations. I don't know what the expectations will be for a common public who would go see the movie,

but that does lead to an interesting question, which is sort of like, I feel like maybe the stakes are now a little bit higher on the movie too, where there's an expectation that like, so the film is going to get good reviews. People will like it. IFC is distributing it in the United States. Right. Is there like a mounted pressure because of that? You know, in film, at least for me, I'll speak for myself, all, it's nothing but relief once you figured out the problems of the movie and the editing. Once the movie is edited and you're like, okay, wow, we fixed the problems. It's all gravy. It doesn't matter. Interesting. Like, like if, if, if nobody saw this film to me, it's already still a massive success. You read reviews. Um, I'll read the reviews that, uh, my friends send me that destroy me because I take great pleasure in that. And just recently Letterboxd, uh, they,

they run a program where they'll have you read your Letterboxd reviews. Have you seen this before? Yeah, this is the version of Jimmy Kimmel's mean tweets from Letterboxd. I wish. It was the opposite. It's all these big reviews. That's so boring. And right away, I stopped and I was like, I can't do this.

This is awful. And they'd sent the reviews on paper. And so I closed this and just opened Letterboxd and only read the absolute burners. It's gratifying to know that people like the film and, and I love film criticism. Like I adore it in many ways. It teaches me what I've made my movies about post hoc, but you learn so much more and you have so much fun reading the people who

hate you and think that you're, you're just an annoying prick and would wish that this movie didn't exist. What a mistake. This guy's so stupid. Like, that's the real joy. So the film, you know, regardless of how it performs at the box office or what have you, is a success.

People really like it. In theory, you're going to be able to do the thing that you set out to do. I hope so, yeah. So how does that manifest? What does it mean that you get to educate people about film because you made a film like this? commensurate with the work that you do and so what i'm hoping is that i'll be able to more or less swing the scale of how films are financed towards much younger people towards much much younger people because we're blessed in canada and that we have like a 130 140 million dollar uh fund that

that finances feature films and so little of that goes to young people. And so we wind up with this bizarre culture of- Are you taking money away from David Cronenberg? Let's not get into it. But you know, the thing is young people can make money for very little, make movies for very little money. And so we can make a lot of these. I love the, I love the let a thousand flowers bloom philosophy when it comes to this, because

we do, we are in a crisis like i've been to what like 30 film festivals in the last three months and nobody's talking about canadian films everybody is as shocked that this movie is canadian as they are shocked that the blackberry was a canadian product yeah i think that's the issue is that no one knows that this is a canadian product right and and it's just that we don't my dad when i was a kid said that uh matt we live in the best country in the world but we have a marketing problem and i i really believe that and uh i think to me it's it of course it's it's my world but i think it starts with cinema i think that so many countries have done an amazing job defining their national identity

through cinema and whether they want to admit it or not and and obviously your country is that there is no it's it's not even worth saying that you've defined your your your values in your country through cinema and that's such a gift that uh i want to experience what what does your family think about your career and your films they don't they don't care they don't understand it they're not they're not interested. Oh yeah. Have you seen The Dirties? My first film? Yeah, of course. So my mom is in it.

Yeah. And, uh, here's, I remember I first showed, uh, my mom that movie. She plays herself in it, but of course I film

everything secretly. So she didn't know we were filming her. And, uh, in the movie I play a, a school shooter who's, uh, in the middle of this plan

and I go up and ask my mom if she thinks I'm crazy. And then my mom for real tells me what she thinks about my state of, well, my mental state. And afterwards I asked my mom when she saw the film with a big audience, I was like, so mom, did you, what'd you think? Did you see yourself in there? And she was like, yeah, was that actually me? And so they look, I love my parents and I love my parents and they love me. I get along great, but I'm not sure that they're necessarily interested in my work at all. And that's okay.

That is also fascinating. Are you going to make another film like this? A $5 million movie? A $20 million movie? Well, right away I'm making a movie based on the television show I made, Nirvana the Band the Show. I'm shooting that right now. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

Well, we just started putting it together. Why? Why are you adapting your own work? Because I feel like this show is like, in my opinion, one of the best things I've ever done in my life. It is the absolute nexus of, is this real filmmaking? It is, it's like a, it's a sitcom, but a sitcom shot completely in the real world where every single person in the movie, other than the two main guys are real. And you watch them go on these character arcs with total strangers. And I'm just addicted to making it. And, um, we were making it, um, we made two seasons of it

and, uh, and then our network went out of business. And so I want to get back to doing that while I still have time, because I know that I'm not going to have a chance with i don't know this it's a a effectively it's about the selection of a jury but the star is a real person this sounds right up my alley actor this sounds right up my alley yeah it sounds like joe schmoe uh it's similar to somewhat similar to joe schmoe but um i think that that's interesting that like there is a sort of wave of storytelling in that fashion like was it easy to get a film version of the show made yeah well because of this movie yes interesting yeah and um again in some ways it's it's uh it's it's one of the success stories of making this movie is that now i i think for a little while i'm going to be able to make the movies i've always wanted to make in my country um which have been very very hard hard to make. Okay. So you're going to stand against my

question. Will you make a $50 million movie for an American studio at any point in your life? Well, what's strange is that, and I'm sure your listeners know this, is that as soon as you're making a movie for that much money, you instantly lose final cut. And so unless you're Martin Scorsese and can really dictate the terms of you taking a project like this, I struggle to see the upside of that. Right. I don't know that there's a story that I want to tell that's going to require me marshalling the resources of 50 million American dollars. Maybe there is, but it's certainly not in my mind right now. And so for the most part, and what you probably

see is filmmakers who are plucked from the independent cinema world and then put on studio IP properties. And that can be great. We're watching like the rise of all kinds of indie filmmakers. I mean, Colin Trevorrow is a great example of that going from safety, not guaranteed into the Jurassic movie. And then, you know, you're off to the races, but I'm less interested in that than I am in the moment that you're in. And I try to talk to as many filmmakers as I can who find themselves at that moment. You've made more films than some of these filmmakers, but I'm interested in people who are in one, two, maybe three films in, and they've made a movie for $5 million, $10 million. And now they have

this critical decision to make where it's like, sure, I could sign on for a franchise. But what I really want to try to do is push and get something that is more in $25 to $30 million. A difficult number. A hard number. Yeah. That is like a character story that is not pure genre that can still reach an audience. Because those are movies that I personally care about and I like a lot. Obviously, they've been disappearing from Hollywood for 20 years, et cetera, et cetera.

But I'm, I, sometimes someone makes a film like Blackberry and they get a taste for that. I see what you're saying. You know what I mean? And they say, I want to go up a little bit more. I felt like, oh, I've discovered some new toys I didn't know about. I want to keep working with higher level actors. Well, look, actors is probably the only place you'll get me because I love actors and to work with more actors of the caliber that I got to work with on BlackBerry. Yes. Of course I drop everything to do that again. Um, but I, I guess I'm optimistic and almost

maybe childishly optimistic in this, in thinking that I think I'll probably able to be able to do that at, uh, you know, the five to $10 million level, I think, because I think I'll probably be able to do that at the $5 to $10 million level, I think. Because I think that at least based on the experience I had with Glenn, he was very interested in working in this model because it let him take crazy risks and do whatever he wanted. I mean, so much focus gets put on directors having control over their own projects. But what that also means is that by extension, the actors also have final cut in a way, right?

They get to come to set and do what they want. And they're also not serving some larger corporate entity. So you really get to experiment. You got to see Pattinson do that with the Safdie brothers in a way that, you know, it's, it's the most fun version of movie acting. Bingo.

Yeah. Yeah. Bingo. And that is kind of the promised land that i think a lot of filmmakers from my generation and quite frankly film students want to get to where it's like okay can we just get together and make this as best as we can and really bleed for the project and again exactly like the culture of these young guys in blackberry like let's just put everything we have into this and still have a great time doing it. And there's a kind of magic, almost a ritualistic magic that comes out of that, that if you strangle or snuff, again, I keep invoking my own film, but you watch what happens to the product. You watch what happens when that gets extinguished.

And yeah, I feel for at least the next little while, I'll be able to work in that gets extinguished. And, um, yeah, I feel for at least for at least the next little while I'll be able to work in that, in that space. I hope. Matt, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen. You are cinephilic. You know,

my, my answer will, will, will not match that description at all because I, I haven't, I've been at, in, in,

at going to film festivals for, for so long. And I haven't been able to see movies in the festivals. Do you miss that? Being able to watch more movies? Oh my God. Oh my God. But you know what? I have Toronto.

Like the Toronto Film Festival is like just a repository of everything. I just watch everything. I just watch everything. They play it all at the Scotiabank Theater and I just watch every single movie. And what's so great is you can walk out whenever you want. So it's like if something doesn't catch me, I just leave and go to another screening because there's so many things screening at the Scotiabank Theater and I just watch every single movie. And what's so great is you can walk out whenever you want. So it's like if something doesn't catch me, I just leave and go to another screening because there's so many things screening at the same time. I cried watching Dungeons and Dragons.

Really? Tell me about it. I liked it too. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Oh, I cried. Like that movie is a great example of me going in with a huge chip on my shoulder being like, yeah, right. This sucks. I didn't like the other films from that group of filmmakers. I found them to be mawkish in a way. And I was expecting

the exact same thing here. And I was completely captured. I swear it must've been the puppetry because the film was so tactile and goofy and sweet. And it kind of had thisg aw shucks innocence that it was i couldn't judge it for me to be like oh this movie is bad would be like almost making fun of a really happy kid who's just doing his own thing and what does that make me look like yeah i'm gonna watch some kid running around playing a game with his friend to be like oh what an idiot like what led you to go to see the dungeons and dragons film in theaters my good friend, Jay McCarroll is a part of a Dungeons and Dragons group. And he was going with his friends and I was like, I'll come with you. And so we saw a sneak preview. And I'm telling you at that, at that, at that act three moment, I just cried. I was standing, I was standing next to my brother,

Eric. We just cried. Maybe it's because I played Baldur's Gate. I don't know. But like this movie, I adored it. I adored it. I adored it. And who knows, on a second watch, I may be like, you know, this is cold and dead,

but I never really watched movies twice. That's a great recommendation. Matt, congrats on Blackberry. I really like talking to you. Thanks for doing the show. You too. I feel like I could

talk to you for hours. Well, we'll cut off now, but maybe we'll keep talking. Thanks. off now but maybe we'll keep talking thanks thanks to matt johnson thanks to our producer bobby wagner for his work on today's episode later this week on the big picture as i said fast x master gardener paul schrader in studio we'll see you then