The Big Picture - The 10 Most Intriguing Movies at the Cannes Film Festival. Plus: ‘Warfare’ Is Hell, With Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza.

Episode Date: April 11, 2025

Sean and Amanda begin the episode with their instant reactions to the official announcement of the 2025 Cannes Film Festival lineup. They share their overall mixed feelings about the slate, attempt to figure out why some notable films missed the cut, and debate whether or not Sean would be capable of taking a three-month movie sabbatical (1:45). Then, Chris Ryan joins the show to cover Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza’s new combat drama, ‘Warfare,’ to discuss how emotionally affecting the film is and examine its use of differing perspectives (29:22). Finally, Sean is joined by Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza to explore the intentions behind ‘Warfare,’ then work through the importance of memory and examine how it plays a critical part in the storytelling of the film (1:02:40). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Alex Garland, Ray Mendoza, and Chris Ryan Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe show. That's right. I'm back to have the same in-depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games, the X's and O's, the drama, the playoffs are coming up. And now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're going to love. So make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen to your podcast. Let's go!

This episode is brought to you by Air Canada. Ready for your next adventure? How about taking in views upon views in Athens, browsing mouthwatering night markets in Bangkok, or dancing to carnival in the Caribbean with amazing beach breaks, city breaks, and bucket list trips to choose from? Air Canada has you covered. Start planning your trip to over 180 destinations today at aircanada.com or contact your travel agent Air Canada. Nice travels. or contact your travel agent. Shop online at majore.com or in-store today. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture Right

Conversation show about warfare and the Cannes Film Festival. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza. This is Alex Garland's fifth time on the show. He last joined us to discuss Amanda's favorite movie of 2024, Civil War. His new film, which he co-directed with Mendoza, is a bracing combat drama set during a SEAL team mission gone awry during the 2006 Iraq war The movie is derived entirely from memories of the men who were present for the event that is portrayed Mendoza served for 16 years He's worked as a stunt performer and technical advisor on movies for more than 15 years in Hollywood

Garland and Mendoza are very unlikely and fascinating pairing of filmmakers together Please stick around for our conversation about how and why they made that movie. Chris Ryan and I will also talk about it, break down what's so effective about it later in the conversation. But first, Amanda, we need to talk about... Another event that I will not be participating in. Hopefully not as traumatic

as the events portrayed in Warfare, the Cannes Film Festival. Last week we were at CinemaCon, the big kickoff to the Here's What You Should Get, excited about it, the movie's Olympics. That was followed swiftly by the massive success of Minecraft. Yes. And now we have the final chapter in We're Back or Are We? Which is the announcement of the lineup for the Cannes Film Festival,

both in competition and out of competition, in certain regard, and special presentations. We've got all the films here. We're gonna go through the bulk of the films that are going to be showing at the Cannes Film Festival in part because even though this is arguably the most significant film festival in the world and has been for some decades, it has taken on even more importance over the last five or so years, especially as we cover the awards races here in the United States. Many of the films that have shown there in the last few years have been nominated for Best Picture. So, any, at first blush, do you have any takeaways when you look at the lineup?

I'm excited. Okay. We had the conversation in my home over coffee this morning because it seems like my husband, at least, is like trying to, you know, pay penance for the fact that we're not going to the Cannes Film Festival. And so he kind of soft-palleted. He was like, I'm not sure about Cannes. Like, eh.

But I said to him, I actually think it's, it's a pretty dynamite list because there are things that we're very excited about. And I think we know to be excited about. And then the thing about Cannes for the last five years is that there are always one or two surprises. One or two or three things. Like the substance. We weren't sitting there at the list being, you know, after the list was announced being like, let's go.

And that became one of the signature movie events of last year. So, I'm excited for the surprise, but I'm also really excited for, you know, Kelly Riker at the Mastermind, the new Joakim Trier movie, the history of sound, which we've been waiting for forever, featuring the two internet boys, Wes Anderson in competition, Mission Impossible, not in competition, but there. Tom will be on the Quasette.

The last time he was there was, of course, for my beloved 2022 Mission Impossi... No, Top Gun Maverick. This is Mission Impossible. Just the third time that Tom will be at Cannes. Listen. The first time was Far and Away, another film that you love. You know, and I think last year turned out to be a dynamite.

Cannes, but also I think in the moment, everyone there was like, what are we doing? Because the big names were a little mixed. It was obviously, it was Megalopolis, it was Horizon. And those movies didn't pin out, but there is still something exciting about being able to see them there. So we have a mix of some big movies.

I didn't even say the Richard Linklater movie. There are a lot of things that are exciting and you wanna be able to see them plus the possibility of discovery. I don't know. I wish we were going. I think I may side with Zach a little bit. Okay. I found myself.

You're trying to make yourself feel better and that's okay. I think I stand with the city. You started this recording with a lot of judgment of my personal life before we started recording. I didn't judge you at all. In fact, I said nothing. Exactly, but I am attuned to your facial expressions

and we are on video. So now everyone else can be on. That's fine. I am choosing not to judge you this morning. Thank you very much. I will share my honest feedback, which is maybe I'm trying to make myself feel better. I don't think so.

I found the announcement to be, um, a little mild. Is that because you don't like female directors? No, there were a record six. I think a record. Oh, thank you so much, France. You can talk to Tierra Fermo about that. Uh, one notable female filmmaker was missing Lynn Ramsey's, um, uh,Die My Love, the Jennifer Lawrence Robert Pattinson film, which had been rumored. There were a handful of other movies.

I know. I do want Robert Pattinson and Jennifer Lawrence on the Quasette. However, I do believe that Jennifer Lawrence had recently had a child. So maybe she's on maternity leave. She deserves it. It could be that. I don't think that's what's going on. Well, you know what? I hope so. Maybe we should take that into consideration. Yeah. I mean, that's the interesting thing about this announcement too, is that, you know, Cannes in six weeks.

It's really soon. Yeah. And so there's not a lot of time to get hyped about a lot of this stuff. The big one that was missing for me was Jim Jarmusch's father, mother, sister, brother. He hasn't had a film out in almost five years. He is a mainstay at the Cannes Film Festival. He's shown many movies there over the years. There was a report this morning that the film was out and out rejected from Cannes, which has shades of Mike Lee's hard truths last year getting rejected from Cannes,

which would be like very unusual. And I'm not totally sure what that would indicate. I have a hard time believing that Jarmusch would get rejected. Nevertheless, that's not their Park Chan Wooks movie. No other other choice it sounds like, is not ready yet. So it's, you know, the thing is, is that with Cannes, like a couple more titles might get added in the next two or three weeks. So this isn't like done, done. But the Be Gone film, Resurrection that I mentioned to you and Joanna a few weeks ago isn't there. Kristen Stewart's directorial debut, The Chronology of Water is not there. So there was just... Yeah, what's going on there?

I don't know. There was a bunch of stuff that people thought were, if not locks, very likely that are not here. The other thing that was very weird is that Spike Lee's Highest to Lowest is playing, but out of competition. And I'm not sure how to read that. So this is a new film that is from Apple in 824. It's a remake of High and Low, the Kurosawa movie. And Spike Lee is also a Cannes staple.

He debuted She's Got to Have It and Do the Right Thing there. He was the jury president in 2021 when Titane won. He had that famous moment where he like accidentally announced Titane at the very beginning of the ceremony. So he's a big player at Cannes. So this movie being out of competition, I thought was a bit strange. I'm obviously very I think it's very fun that Cruise is going to be there with the one kind of typical Hollywood event movie that tends to open you.

Your Indiana Jones fives tend to open these festivals. You don't need to say it like that. Your Top Gun Mavericks tend to open these festivals. Your Top Gun Mavericks, yeah, sure. Um, I think... You didn't say Ari Aster. I'm, I'm, I'm... That's the one. Okay, warm yourself up.

They, they premiered a poster for this movie today. I think you didn't say Ari Aster. I'm That's okay. That's the one. Warm yourself up. They They premiered a poster for this movie today. I don't know if you had a chance to see it. It's um the images of buffaloes going over a cliff as though they were lemmings mmm, and the tagline of the film for which is called Eddington is 2020 is, no, hindsight is 2020, but the year 2020, because it's a COVID set drama. So I'm very interested in Eddington. That's the number one movie that I'm like, I wish I was there for that.

You're right that there will be surprises. Figuring out what the surprises are, what are the movies that rise, what will be the Emilia Peres of this year, and what will be the substance, you know? What will be the apprentice? You know, a movie that is sort of like middlingly received and then very quietly builds up momentum over time too is something to think about. The first reactions to these movies are not everything. They don't tell us. When we were reading about Emilia Peres, I was like, eh, Jacques Odiard, like, I'm willing to bet, could be interesting. Once again, Enora is the exception to that rule.

Which, you know, the first reactions were good, it won the Palme d'Or, then it won Best Picture. Yes. And that, if you had to choose one movie from the lineup right now, they're like, I just feel like there's juice here. I could see it going on a run. Is there one that you would grab? Ah, well, maybe History of Sound?

It's, I mean, Paul Mescal and Josh O'Connor. It is Josh O'Connor's season once again. He's also in the Kelly Rikard film, along with John Magaro, you know, all of our faves. All the boys, yeah. The boys are coming together. Last year was the girls' year, and now it's all the internet faves. All the boys, yeah. The boys are coming together. Last year was the girls' year, and now it's

all the internet boyfriends. That's true. But I heard mixed reports about that movie. I want it to be good. Yeah, I do too. But there is also, I do feel like I've just seen so much. I've seen so many paparazzi photos, and that could go against it.

But it could also be these two young like, young, really talented actors and, you know, topics of interest, like finally getting their moment. Yeah, it's possible. I mean, I want to believe it would be the Kelly Rikard movie, but like, even I can't go that far, you know? I'll be surprised if Kelly Rikard takes home the best picture win during her career.

Um, the history of sound is a queer historical romance. It's actually, it's based on a short story by Ben Shattuck, who is Jenny Slate's husband. And as you said, stars Paul Mescal and Josh O'Connor. Oliver Hermanus, not like a heavyweight filmmaker, British filmmaker who I can't recall if his last film, Living, which was a remake of Ikiru, the Kurosawa movie. I can't remember if it played Cannes or not.

It definitely played the fall festivals. And it was like well-liked, and Bill Nye was sort of in competition for best actor throughout that season. But I don't, I'm having a hard time figuring out what will be... Well, that's the thing. Can I pitch a, I think sentimental value, the Joaquin Trier movie. Yeah. Could be?

Could be. Could be. You know, the worst person in the world was the last time Trayor and Renata Rensby collaborated together. I think Mubi has both this movie and also the history of sound. Okay. Well, that's good for them. Really making moves. Yeah, making, sliding into that neon A24 spot. You know, neon historically tends to buy the eventual Palme d'Or winner out of the

festival and then bring it to the United States and then it goes on to get nominated for best picture. Yeah, they're good at that. I'm not sure which one that's going to be. I'll tell you one I'm excited about. Okay. I don't know very much about it, but um, Kleber Mendocca Filho, who's a Brazilian filmmaker, who I think we both like, um, has a movie called The Secret Agent. He made Baccaru back in 2020. And I don't know very much about it, but if

your movie is called The Secret Agent, I'm probably going to be interested in it. I'm also in, yeah, sure. So I'm looking at that. Julia Ducarno's Alpha, French filmmaker, former Pom Dora winner. To Ten is a movie about a complicated woman who fucks a car and turns into metal. Um, that was a very normal movie. Raw was a movie about, uh, lust, desire, maturation in college and cannibalism. Yeah. Also a super cool movie.

I was saying to, um, to Jack Sanders yesterday when we were talking about it, it's like, you know, there's a couple of things you can always count on the Cannes Film Festival. Like if the Dardenne brothers have a movie, it's going to be there. If Jarmusch has a movie, it's going to be there. And then the Jarmusch thing turned out to be not true. So, I don't know. It's hard to predict right now. Okay.

Uh, two notable directorial debut. Yes. Thank you for setting me up. In uncertain regard. Sure. Uh, what are they? Well, we'll start with Eleanor the Great, Scarlett Johansson, starring June Squibb. And they had a moment, was it at the Golden Globes?

I think it might have been the Academy Awards. Was it at the... One of the funniest presenter bits and great rhythm. And June Squibb was wonderful also in Thelma. Still got it at 90-something years of age. Ninety-five, I think? So normally I would be like, you know, I don't know, but the June Squibib of it all and

And their chemistry and clearly that Scarlett Johansson has locked in on what's working for it makes me excited The other is a urchin directed by Harris Dickinson. So There we go. Hey feeling speaking of Internet Boyfriends. It's really it's all coming together How many Beatles are gonna be at the Cannes Film Festival this year to good Joseph Quinn and anything? Unless there's a surprise fantastic for screening. I don't think so Beatles are gonna be at the Cannes Film Festival this year too. Good. Joseph Quinn and anything? Unless there's a surprise Fantastic Four screening, I don't think so. Um, he is in Warfare though. Oh, okay. I don't know if you're aware of that.

Are you aware of all the internet boyfriends in Warfare? Yeah, but they are, they aren't my internet boyfriends. Like Will Poulter's in it, right? And then um, Noah Centineo? Oh, he is, oh interesting. Yeah, Charles Melton. Charles Melton of May December. Yeah. Very good in Warfare. Yeah. then, um... Noah Centineo? Oh, he is... Oh, interesting. Yeah. Charles Melton. Charles Melton of May, December. Yeah.

Very good. Very good in warfare. Yeah. Uh, there's more. Okay. Kit Conner, who is the voice of the young duckling in the Wild Robot, among other performances. Oh, okay. Uh, there's a bunch of... Michael Gandolfini, James Gandolfini's son.

Right. There's many, many guys. That's exciting. Many of the boys are there as well. Okay, so it's the year of the Internet Boyfriend. I feel like boys are back. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah. like boys are back. Yeah.

What do you think? The boys are back in town? Well, it's also, it's funny that this Cannes Film Festival does have the most female directors in history, but that's, you know, mostly just star and Internet Boyfriends. Maybe that's what the, maybe that's what we're all interested in. Good strategy, you know? In the main lineup, I'm trying to think of other films that are intriguing, you know, Jafar Panahi has a movie called A Simple Accident that people will be paying attention to.

I really liked Karla Simone's movie Alcaraz, which came out in 2022. She has a movie called Romeria, which I'm looking forward to. You never know what's going to pop up. Like there's just frankly filmmakers whose work I'm just not super familiar with. Hafsia Hersey and Oliver Lacks. Like I don't know these filmmakers as well. Cannes is like a crapshoot, man. Like 10 of the movies that played in competition

there last year just didn't even get US distribution. Right. So... But then 10 were also at the Oscars. Yes, 10 were movies we talked about for nine months. That's fun. Open your heart. You're just, you're in Minecraft.

You're just, you're just learning about chicken... No. ...robot chicken, what is it? Uh, Chicken Jockey. Chicken Jockey, right. Okay. So you're too busy with Chicken Jockey to care about the possibility of the can fall. I wouldn't say I'm busy with Chicken Jockey.

Uh, I'm pleased that Chicken Jockey transpired. Sure, yeah. I have not gotten so much feedback about an episode in a while. I think people are very excited about what's happening with Minecraft, slash confused and maybe a little mad. I think some screenings have been like, joy.

Right. And the passion of returning to the movies. And some screenings have been, why is this eight-year-old throwing popcorn at me? And I can't say I approve of the latter. Oh, I'm... I side with the eight-year-old. Yeah, that's great. Would you appreciate that if that happened to you?

If I walk into a Minecraft movie, like, it's their space, you know? And that is, that, and that was what you were so excited about, is that it's, it's the eight year old space now, so if they need to throw popcorn. I'm not an advocate of movie theater violence. As long as it's not my child, because then I gotta be the disciplinarian, you know?

But if it's anybody else's kid, I think that's really funny. I mean, don't hurt anybody, but popcorn isn't going to hurt anyone. So is there any chance that you last minute pivot to go to Cannes? Is there any chance that you stay home and take care of my children? What do you think?

Does this make you more excited about Venice? Yeah. Given that there are things that are missing and that like honestly, the line up is like, it's good. It's's like it's good. I'm not I'm not poo-pooing Wes Anderson and and you know Richard Linklater like these are huge and your beloved Ari Aster and Harris Dickinson. Yes lots of a lot of a lot of dudes I appreciate. Julia Ducarno I really like her movies. Kelly Reichert. I love her movies multiple time guests on the show. But, you know, I think it's like we've gotten too good at speculating. I think that's a little bit of the problem.

Okay. I need to be surprised. Maybe it's just that I'm too deep in the weeds. I think that might be it. And also that you're just, you're protecting your heart because you'll be literally across the country. And you've made your decisions. You asked me if it made me excited for Venice.

Yes, it does because I like international film festivals. So I like a little glitz. I like a big red carpet. You know, what we need in addition to chicken jockey is more glamour. We need chicken jockey for the children and you know, some old school glitz for the grownups. So bring it on.

I'm with you on that. I wanna pitch a concept that I'm with you on that. I want to pitch a concept that I'm not saying is realistic for me in any way. OK. But it's something that I've been thinking about. And it was inspired by the fact that in June my brother is coming to visit with his whole family in Los Angeles, which I'm really excited about. My brother was in Virginia.

Never get to see him. We're extremely close. He's got two kids. And so they're going to spend the week with us. And he's able to do it because he's taking a sabbatical from his job. So once you clock 10 years at the company where he works, you get to take, I think, a few months off, might be three months. You know, historically in America, we've had much more lax ideas about being able to take sabbaticals. With employment, that stuff has been eroded over the last 25 years because of our obsession with work. But there's a part of me, as we get further along in this endeavor, that wants to do what

the writer Evan Ratliff did in 2009. He wrote this article about going off the grid. He went off the grid for like a year. So he didn't respond to emails, didn't look at emails, didn't answer his phone, didn't have access to anything like that. Just lived in the world. Just no internet. No internet, yeah. So I want to do that for movies. I want to take a movie sabbatical for a period of time. I want a bunch of stuff to happen that I don't see, look at, participate

in. I don't want to see trailers. I would watch movies, but just old movies. I wouldn't get... Now, I don't know if I'm even physically capable of this because of the way that I have wired myself. But today is one of those mornings where I'm like, I'm looking at a Wes Anderson movie and an Ari Aster movie and a Kelly record movie and I'm like, yeah, I knew this was coming and it's like, not that funny, not that interesting. Yeah. I mean, that's, that is a real you problem.

And I don't think- I'm looking for solutions. Yeah. I don't think that you could ever do it. Cause you love a spreadsheet and you love being in the know. And frankly, you love work. And when you were talking about how our relationship to work has gotten really insane, like, you know,

jacques, right? Guilty as charged. So that's on you. Yeah. And I think you would miss it, but also- That's the point though. I think everyone could stand to live a little bit more like me, you know?

Which is to say, rudely? So I... You could see the movies. You don't need to be on Twitter. You don't need to be like, just being a psycho about the predictions. I'm like LeBron. Like I'm putting in the work every day.

I know that you are. But like, what if you just went to see movies? Do you know what I mean? Well, that just this show wouldn't be what it is if I know that I understand So I and I'm proud of the show and proud of what we're doing here. But I think It would be an interesting experiment. Okay to see what would happen if I just sat out for a while, right? I'm not trying to give you more work. I'm not trying to torpedo the show. That's fine, I can do it.

I was gonna say that's also called parental leave. I know, I never really took it. Which you never took, and I took plenty of it. It was interesting because in that case, it was almost the reverse where I would listen to the show and I could steal a look at the internet every once in a while, but I couldn't actually like get out to see the movies for the first few months.

But because I- How did it feel? Well, it felt great, honestly, because since I couldn't see the movies, I did tune out a lot of the garbage, if you will, or the things that I didn't really need to do this job. And you do get a different perspective on both movies and the industry

when you're in civilian mode and you're not quite keeping up and you see which movies like make it into your airspace anyway and what you revisit and what you do with your own time. So it's like a cleanse, you know, like a nice reset. I think I felt this. I mean, I think it's just good for the like a nice reset. I think I felt this. I mean, I think it's just good for the human brain and spirit.

I mean, the truth is that I wish I was watching more old movies and I wish I was writing a little bit more. And I think I would be able to do those things if I didn't feel the necessity of it. So the conundrum of it, and one of the reasons why I'm thinking about it is these next couple of weeks are a really fascinating dichotomy. I saw The Amateur on Monday night, which is the new Rami Malek movie that's out this weekend. I know, I'm going Friday.

And it's not bad, but it's not good. And it isn't like a waste of time, but I felt like I was wasting my time. And that's no disrespect to the people who worked hard on the movie. And it's the kind of thing that I enjoy usually, you know? It's like a well-made competent action movie with like Laurence Fishburne and Michael Stuhlbark and Katrina Balfe just being cool and interesting. Being spies basically. Great.

With Rami Malek at the center of it, which is not ideal, but nevertheless. And I was like, this is what I did on my Monday night. This wasn't a good use of my time. I would have rather done bedtime. Yeah. But then I, you know, a few weeks before that I saw Sinners and I was like, this is exactly, exactly why I'm doing what I'm doing. Almost literally, this is what I'm waiting for, which is not to say that movie is perfect, but it is the thing that I'm like living for as a movie fan. So I'm like, if I missed Sinners, but I also got to

miss the amateur, would it even out? I don't know. I'm thinking, if I missed Sinners, but I also got to miss the amateur, would it even out? I don't know. I'm thinking about it. You're thinking about it. And then you'll just watch old movies. In that time, yeah, whatever that time is. It's not gonna be a year. I don't have the willpower to do that. But so your response to an international lineup of films featuring some of the great filmmakers working, and then also the possibility of new things

and the possibility of maybe not as sinners, but a different, completely, this is why I watch movies experience. Your response to that is like, I'm going to opt out. I don't really think I understand that. I think it's just that the... Q1 was bad. Like, it's been a dark time. We are in the doldrums.

It's something I've been stewing on because it's been a long three months of movie coverage. And I felt like, you know, we really had to like lean into a lot of Oscar stuff because there wasn't as much to talk about. So yeah, it's an accumulation. It's not just, I mean Cannes, I've never been. I'm sure it's gonna be amazing. Everybody who goes is like it's heaven for movie lovers. It's not specifically about Cannes. It's more just that there is a kind of predictability there. The other thing too is, and I was talking with some friends about this this morning, is like, Terry Formo's been doing this a long time.

I think his version of Cannes is like a little predictable now. And... You know. You're never gonna be made head of the Cannes Film Festival if you don't go. I don't expect to ever. I'm not French. So that's never going to happen.

And I'm okay with that. Uh, I'm not trying to tell those geniuses how to do their jobs. I just, it's an accumulation of a lot of feelings. OK. I'm here to be honest with you. OK. You know, I feel like that being that open

has been beneficial to the show. Yes. So you're a burnt out. I mean, I am tired of mediocre to bad movies. Of course I am. And we are in the real, real... like, down spot of the year. And it's been a bad year and... The new... March is the new dumpuary, which I didn't realize.

Like, I didn't... I don't know when that happened, where it was like January is actually more interesting than March, but it kind of was. And, you know, we did have Black Bag and we did have Mickey 17. There were good movies, but not as great as you would have wanted all of them to be. So yeah, that's part of it.

It's part of it. Yeah. We're in the bad spot and it has been a tough year. And I was rewatching a 25 for 25 movie recently. And every time we go back and watch just like a stone cold classic, there really is this moment of like, what am I doing with the rest of my time?

That might be part of it. I feel you. That might be part of why I'm feeling this way. Because they're all- We're looking at stuff that's just like, this is clicking. Electric. Yeah.

And then, cause we have a perfect taste. And then we go watch like the, I'm going to see what's the Jason Statham movie? A working man. Don't go see it. It's on VOD on Tuesday. See, that's what happened to movies. Oh, it's on VOD. Well I have, and that'll be before we record.

Yeah. Oh, that's great for me. That's the problem too. That opens up, that opens up my whole Thursday, you know? Okay. Well, thank you so much for that. Yeah, you're welcome. You know, and then I'm doing the amateur tomorrow. It was just like a real slug mess.

In IMAX? No, I was thinking about just going to my beloved landmark, Pasadena. They seem very excited that it's gonna be an IMAX movie. Every poster is like IMAX. Yeah, and I'm happy for the people at IMAX. Sinners in IMAX is a must. I am seeing it in IMAX.

Yes, okay, all right. Okay, I got it is a must. I am seeing it in IMAX. A must. Yes. Okay. All right. Okay. I got it off my chest. I'm good. Okay. I'm probably not going to do that.

And honestly, it's going to be the summer and I'm going to be like, it's very important that I cover every summer movie. Yeah. Like we're taking time off in August, but now there are all these weird movies. You're going to see every single one of them. What do you mean? In August. They've started dating everything.

I know. Well, let's, thank you for bringing that up. We are going to take a little bit of a break in August, as we always do, but now I'm kind of nervous about it because what's happening in August? I'm not going anywhere for the naked gun or weapons. I'll be covering both of those movies, just putting that out there for you. Nobody 2? I don't really care about that. Eden, Ron Howard's movie with Sidney Sweeney.

Sure. Which vertical entertainment acquired. Yeah. Got the best sign. You know what? Shout out Ron Howard for his episode of the studio, which was very funny. He was very funny. And also Anthony Mackie.

That was the... He was the funniest part. Anthony Mackie, Seth Rogen, just really, really good stuff. Great show. I agree. I'm enjoying it as well. Lurker, which is a movie I have not seen, which was at the Sundance Film Festival that I'm very excited about.

Another movie acquisition. They're making moves, man. And then Caught Stealing, Aronofsky and Austin Butler. And then The Roses, which is the J. Roach reimagining remake of The War of the Roses starring Benedict Cumberbatch and Olivia Colman. So there's some cool stuff in August. Yeah.

I wanna go to Hawaii, that's what I really want to do. I know you do. So hopefully that'll happen. I'm going East Coast and then hopefully Europe. I got to figure that out. I wish you well. Thank you. I haven't been on like a real actual vacation.

It doesn't involve like going to see my family in like six years. So okay. It's been a long time. Yeah. I mean. I've had plenty of nice work trips. I've had a lot of nice work trips. We had one non-family work trip

that also had some fun elements. I guess I haven't really either, now that you put it like that. COVID and children. Yeah. I mean, maybe those were the real issues. It's not the movies. It's our choices.

It's certainly a factor. You know, the last little bit of it too is like, it got so fun to be a parent. It was so hard to be a parent. And now that it got fun, I was like, do I have to see the amateur? Is this really something I should be doing? So I'll come back to this. But thank you for hearing me out.

I appreciate your open-mindedness. You have been on a trip, not for work and not without your family in the last five years, and it was the first time you went golfing? Yes. That was physical work, though. That was very physically taxing. And it's about to be physically taxing again. Okay.

You in shape? You went on the treadmill while we're watching movies? No, I'm not in shape. I'm not in shape at all. What are you going to do? I don't know. When was the last time that you watched a film while walking on the treadmill? And what was the film?

I did two weeks ago. What was the film? Um, I don't remember. It might have been in 25 for 25. Oh, like a new one? No, no, no, no. Like one of the movies that we were revisiting. Oh, okay.

Like it might have been The Handmaiden. Interesting. I don't think that's very respectful to Park Chan Wook, but that's- What do you mean? It's actually even better because like I have no devices near me. I'm locked in. Okay. Are you walking or running?

Where else am I going to look? Like hard walking. Okay. Incline? Sometimes. It's hard with my hip. Oh, that's right. I forgot.

We're in the physical therapy realm as well. Yeah. That's why I'm concerned about golf. Sure. But thank you for asking. Okay. People just want to know what level of incline you're doing. I mean, what an absolute nightmare to be complaining about my amazing life and all these wonderful

things that I have to only then pivot to a conversation about warfare, which is one of the most upsetting movies, really, of the 21st century. So I acknowledge that I'm the problem with society. I know it about myself. I can't escape this fortress of solace that I built. But it is what it is. I hope you've enjoyed it. Thanks for indulging me. Of course. See you at Cannes. Okay, let's go to Chris Ryan. So excited to have the Iceboy back. Chris Ryan, CR, thank you for rejoining me.

Of course, man. Good to see you. When's the last time you were here? In this room with you you mean yeah a couple weeks like maybe the week before we went to Boston for the rewatchables What we talked about? Did we draft something I don't think I've been on like a normal pod in a while Do you think that was purposeful? No, I think you guys have been really busy though. I've really enjoying 25 for 25. Thanks I think you guys have been really busy though. I've really enjoying 25 for 25. Thanks. Idiot, syncretic, yet comprehensive is my review.

Appreciate your thoughts. Yeah. We've been getting a lot of thoughts about it. I'll have you know. Did you hear my thoughts about television? I sure did. What did you think? You know, you're kind of constant, the idea that there needs to only be one, like that TV or movies are in this battle with each other. Jedi or Sith. I don't really agree with that part.

But I thought as recently as like last fall and winter you were like it's like TV sucks. I can't watch it. Why would I watch an eight hour or 10 hour show when I can just watch four movies and like just keep experiencing visual storytelling the way I want. And then you bending the knee to adolescence and Noah Wiley and Severance was pretty shocking. Would you want to address the Letterboxd legions and tell them how you feel?

I saw adolescence is available to be logged on Letterboxd. Not only that, I logged it. I'll just say to all of the movie fans out there, hold. We are holding in the month of April. And that is an elegant segue to where we're going today. As a great man once said, be cool. Be cool, yes. No tariff talk today, I promise you.

We will talk about foreign policy, though, and the way that foreign policy impacts our lives and the lives of American citizens, because you're here to talk about Warfare, which is the new film from Alex Garland and first time director Ray Mendoza, who's been working on movies for some time now, but this is his first time in the co-director's chair. It's a very straightforward movie. It is a very bracing and intense movie,

but it is a movie that is made, as they said, from the memories of the men who participated in this surveillance mission in 2006, um, during the Iraq war and Ramadi and basically what happens in what feels like roughly a 10 or 12 hour window across that day. And it is tightly focused on the men who were there that day and does not have a lead character and it shifts perspectives pretty consistently across this, I guess, pair of teams, this pair of SEAL teams. Stars DeFaro, Woonatai, who you are a huge fan of from... Reservation Dogs. Reservation Dogs.

Will Poulter, Cosmo Jarvis, Joseph Quinn, Kit Conner, Finn Bennett, Taylor John Smith, Michael Gandolfini, Aiden Bradley, Noah Centineo. It is kind of a who's who of young male Hollywood. Very reminiscent of the Black Hawk Down cast where you could say it's like the class picture of an acting generation in some ways. And I would probably, you'd make good money

betting on like half a dozen of these guys to be in movies for the next 15, 20 years. And I was trying to determine, even in talking to Alex and Ray whether there was some sort of strategy involved there with how they found these guys and who they chose to be in the movie and they talked about that a little bit when we talked later in the show. But this is candidly about as upsetting a horror, excuse me, it is a horror movie, but as upsetting a war movie as I've seen in some time, what did you make of Warfare?

You'll get your head scooped out by a melon baller by this one. I mean, the sort of what you walk out of that theater feeling, I think comes first. And then what you think of the movie comes second. So when you walk out of the movie theater, when I walked out of the movie theater with you, I think I just felt beaten up. I felt kind of hollowed out. And I was trying to get like basically my hearing back, both like literally because it's one of the most like impressively and bombastically sound design films I've ever seen.

But also like, okay, I have to reorient, get my balance back after that experience, which I think is ultimately the intention. I think ultimately the intention is to communicate to all of your senses what it was like to the best that these guys can remember to be in this situation. What you think of the movie, I think not unlike Civil War, there's going to be like a lot of divisive thought about like, why did you make this movie? What is this movie trying to communicate? Obviously, as comes up a lot of times, is this film anti war or is it sufficiently anti war? So it's a it's a really rich text, but it is very sparse and minimal

in terms of like giving you direction in what you should be thinking and how you should be feeling. I feel like it's twinned very nicely with Civil War in some ways, which is a movie that a lot of people loved and a lot of people did not love. And I think some people didn't like it

for reasons that it didn't necessarily align or clearly communicate enough about what their politics were. Other people felt like maybe it was a little bit like flimsy or sitting on the fence. You and I were huge fans. It was your favorite movie of 2024. And that movie was a movie that was about the search of the truth in aggressive conflict through the eyes of journalists. And perhaps the fallacy of that mission. Yes. And how, whether there is truth in that way. And I think the ending of that movie in particular,

the kind of like borderline winky punk rock ending of that movie that kind of upends the entire experience of it all the way through, I found to be a fascinating end note. This movie is also about a kind of truth that is sought through a memory of experience, which, as Garland and Mendoza said, is like this idea of fragmentation feels like really important part of it, whereas Civil War is sort of like a road movie, a narrative

about three or four people on a journey across the country trying to get somewhere and find something. This is a movie about people locked in one place for a given period of time who are experiencing wild physical and emotional trauma. And so there are like blacked out periods for some of those people. And so the movie shifts pretty dramatically from one character to another. You know, DeFarro, when a tie, I didn't even really realize he was a stand in for Ray Mendoza. He is right. Yeah, he is literally playing Ray Mendoza in the film and be the main character. Essentially, he's

not even there really is not a protagonist, but it's not until you get to the end of the film that you really realize that that is essentially the lens through which the story is shot. Yeah. But because of how confusing and traumatic this experience is, like it necessarily has to jump from guy to guy, moment to moment, because this is what it's like, specifically what has to jump from guy to guy, moment to moment,

because this is what it's like. Specifically, what Mendoza said is sort of like the first time and the way that your aperture widens on these experiences, the more kind of firefights you're in or the more kind of like forward actions you're in. Sure. Because the first time it happens, you're so disoriented. And that is what the movie is like a little bit. Well, there's a character, I guess, can we get into sort of

talking a little bit about specifics, but Will Poulter's character, I think, has concussed multiple times in this film, and at some point is like, I'm all fucked up, like, I can't make decisions. Yes. And characters are passing out, characters are not necessarily in rooms with each other, but Mendoza and Garland, I'm sure they talked to you about this, like, had a very strict methodology in terms of building the script out of, if it wasn't something that someone was like, and then this happened, like, it didn't, they never added anything that was like, well, this will be convenient because we need to get these three guys into this alley. So we

just need to cause a reason for that to happen and we'll make up for it later. It was, everything is essentially an act of reportage. So do you think that's a valuable way to communicate this experience? Because the movie from Garland's perspective to me, I mean this in a non-critical way, it feels like an exercise. And for Mendoza, it's the most personal thing in the world. Yeah. And so you put these two perspectives together and they're very different. And I think they see the movie even differently, even though they made it together. For you as a viewer, did you feel like you learned something?

You like had a new perspective on how you feel about this kind of conflict or even these guys who sign up to be a part of these things? I think that your reaction to war films and anti-war films and movies about this kind of thing differs at different points in your life. I think that when I was very young, obviously, I was like a lizard brain kid who played soldiers

and was just sort of fascinated by stories I heard about my grandfather's generation fighting in World War II. My parents were heavily shaped by Vietnam and like their reactions to Vietnam. And when we were growing up, obviously, we were getting films like Platoon and Born on the Fourth of July. And we came of age during W, really,

and I think have a very, very healthy cynicism about American foreign interventionist policies from that era and beyond. So I didn't necessarily come out of this being like, now I'm against war, or this has changed my feelings about the Iraq war, but I don't think that's why they made this movie. I think they made this movie as a stone to put in the ground to be like, this happened and now we remember.

And so it's really crucial to know that the character of the Cosmo Jarvis is playing is this character, Elliot. Elliot, the film is dedicated to Elliot and it is essentially like giving Elliot his memory back. Now you could, here's what I want to ask you. Like, let's say you and I are in a car accident and I lose consciousness and I don't have any memory of this car accident like It's just making me remember and having some sort of act of Memorializing like that moment between us like a reason to reenact the car crash and

Especially if we're not coming out and saying and this is why Transit safety is really important. You know, yeah, I don, I don't, I don't want to minimize your metaphor. Yeah. It's not a great one, but I, I know what you mean, but I think there is a difference, which is that when you are a part of a group like this, when you enlist and especially if you're like a seal and you're on a team, literally, there's just a bond that is incredibly powerful that is very unemotional in its communication. And I think it's probably useful to talk about the experience under which we saw the movie. Because we saw it at the American Legion Theater here in Los Angeles. And that is a space that is run by veterans.

And the majority of the people who were in the room when we saw it were vets. And after the screening, we watched a Q&A with Ray and Alex and some of the actors, including some of the men who were there that day, the events that are portrayed in the film. Guys who, like, they were just being brought into the filmmaking process at that point. There were a few guys who were just like, I was there, but like, I wasn't part of making the movie,

but I came to see it, and now they've brought me on stage to talk about it. It was pretty mind-blowing. Fascinating. Kind of a hard, it's a perfect example, I think, of how, you know, like, there's no such thing as objective criticism, where it's like you watch the movie and then you watch people talk about

what they lived through that day, and then the way that Mendoza kind of filtered that perspective into a story. And I don't... You just naturally have empathy for the people. You know, there are people on stage who've gone through something that is so powerful. I think the difference between the car accident note is that when you are part of a team and you've bonded with people and then you go through something together, it is different.

And so I believe Mendoza when he says he made it for those men. I don't think Garland did that. I think he did it for different reasons. And I think some of his reasons might be that he is anti-war and he thinks it's important to show the actual toll upon these guys. And the film is as much defined by what is show the actual toll upon these guys. And the film is as much defined by what is on the screen as what is not.

There's no political context in the movie. Yeah, they could have not given you the year or the country in which it was taking place. They shot it in London. I know it's not it's evocative of combat and it's evocative of. Probably what it was like to have those kinds of like highly urban, high density firefights. Obviously, it's like probably the most accurate depiction we'll ever see on a mainstream Hollywood film. But you don't like you know nothing about why they're there, what they're looking for. You can read about what was going on in Iraq in 06 and the Civil War and different things that were happening. And, you know, but you don't come out of this feeling like,

oh, now I feel differently about that whole thing. Right. I think for most people of our generation, to your point about the cynicism that we had at the time, there's a pretty strong understanding that this was just like an unjust and very strange war that felt very motivated by previous administrations, familial ties, all this other stuff, you know, oil, all of these other things. The movie is not interested in that specifically.

It's not even really necessarily, it's interested in the men's humanity, but not in the men themselves. There's not really strong characterization. There's no super story. So there's no, um, like kind of Homeric level. We reuniting this guy with his last, we have to get this brother home because the other brothers have died. Or, you know, we must escape from this prison camp or we, you know, I am the narrator Chris from Platoon

and I am like meeting all these people and through this group of guys is a microcosm of the people who were involved in the Vietnam War and all that stuff. And then there's also like Good and Evil with Defoe and Beringer. It's like this was, this is literally a completely processed based film that is told, I guess we haven't even said this, in an astonishing way. Like when I- It's an amazing movie in many ways. I've never seen a war movie like this.

I don't even know if you would ever need to make another war movie. I'll say that. Like, yeah, you know, and I feel like a couple of times in my life, like after Black Hawk, after Saving Private Ryan, I feel like why? Like, what could you think you could add to war movies after making this? Like, yeah, I think it's very rare for a movie within an established genre to not just sort of like... delimit the future of the genre, but to do something that hasn't been done before.

Yeah. A huge part of this is that... it's dispensing with this schematic, archetypal character journeys for all these guys. You know, the hothead, the leader, the coward, the reluctant hero. None of that is here. There are people who do things that could fit into those molds,

but taking all of those things away and just leaving you with the experience of the people who were there, and then being just a little, just ever so slightly Cheshire Cat about what role we as a country played in this experience near the end of the film. Just the lit... it's almost entirely shot through the lens of these guys. And then right at the end of the movie, without necessarily spoiling the movie, there is this acknowledgement of what has happened in this place

and how the men who were in this place left. And again, it reminded me a lot of Civil War, that there's like... you can do a lot with a little in movie story. Well, I think you could walk out of this movie and I think, here's how I chose to read it. I don't know why they were there. I don't know who was fighting, who they were fighting.

They didn't really know who they were fighting. They literally never explained the mission. They're in the middle of a Civil War that their country has essentially caused in some ways, in many ways. And then they leave. And what they leave is blood and smoke, which is a line from the movie where they're like, look for the blood and smoke when they're trying to find like what one group is trying

to find the other. And that's, I think what you're supposed to take from it. That's the political commentary. That's the social commentary. That's the world's historic commentary is what a waste of life and what a tragic experience. I don't know if that's why Raymond Doza made the movie. I think Raymond Doza probably made the movie to the extent that we can assign a Thoriel intention to memorialize an event that shaped his life. When he and I spoke, he said something I thought that was very direct, which is this to me was about what and not why.

And that there are a lot of places you can go if you want why. And I think that there will be some people who see the movie and are like, why is this not about why? Shouldn't we be talking more about why? It's debatable. It's his story. You know, it's the movie that he and Garland wanted to make. I'll also say that just for the for the sake of conversation, you know, we're talking a little bit about the what not why and we're talking

about how they. Escue like most classical, like here's here's the like you said, the hothead, the leader, the funny guy. Within the film itself, there is a lot of, like, intention and obstacle dramatic writing. It's just happening while so much is concussing you and so much is coming at you. But there's a lot of, like, I need to take a piss, but I can't. There's, I need to try and give this guy morphine, but we don't have any more.

Like, there is these things that each character has to kind of overcomment to get through the day, but I almost struggle to remember the details of it. It's actually pretty helpful to watch the trailer because the trailer is essentially like, it's not hiding anything. Like, this is what happened. Like, this is what happens in the film is essentially, like, exactly what you were gonna expect to have happen. It's just, I don't think anybody's ready for what it's gonna feel like. It is really abstract in a way, though, too. Like, it is a movie about a mission, and the whole movie is the mission,

or sort of how the mission goes awry. It's also this, like, very odd Tarkovskyian quest for, like, what is purpose and meaning in front on dogma references Yeah, yeah, and I think that the idea of kind of like leaning deeply into the practical aspects of this experience while also Circling bigger themes. Yeah is something that he does really really well and just makes this utterly unique I really just cannot think of another movie that is like this, that tries to do this.

It's so hard to... A lot of times people are like, well, was the movie good? I'm like, it worked. You know, like it worked. It did what it wanted to do. Yeah, so there's an interesting period when it begins... where you're kind of sort of trying to find your way. Obviously, everybody's wearing helmets. They're all dressed the same. Like, even though you can where you're kind of sort of trying to find your way. I mean, obviously everybody's wearing helmets, they're all dressed the same,

like even though you can differentiate if you've followed like Will Poulter or Joseph Quinn's career, like, oh, there he is. But they are not having dramatic conversations. There's essentially like a 20 minute period of these guys sitting on a floor, staring out of scopes and looking at maps. And they're talking and they're talking in jargon and there, staring out of scopes, and looking at maps. And they're talking and they're talking in jargon

and there's a couple of amusing moments, but there is nothing... Um... It almost feels like completely untouched. It doesn't feel like anyone came through and like, let's do a pass and like make this guy's character a little bit more like this so that we then feel worse when this guy

experiences that. There's nothing like that. There's nothing like that. It's just like, these are these guys and you can see, you can kind of detect where it's like, I bet Elliot was like, Cosmodarvis was just doing what he knows Elliot was like, you know what I mean? There's no, the only thing that you remember is that he needs to pack a dip, you know? And then like, that's like the defining element of his character. Yeah, followed by what happens to his character in the film. Of course.

Yeah. I think I'm just impressed that they did something I haven't seen before. And it's also like another film from Garland specifically, Mendoza worked on Civil War. It is amazing to just see the responses be their five-star masterpiece or this movie should go to hell. Yeah. And I guess I'm kind of like just like I'm so... Has anyone who's seen the movie felt that way? That's the one thing I'm wondering about. I mean on Letterboxd it seems is that that's the case. But you know, I think there are some woeful misreadings of this.

Like this is not like playing Call of Duty. There's nothing about this movie that's like... And I'm very susceptible. Anybody who's heard me talk about Lioness... I was gonna ask you about that. How it compares in this state. Uh, I just think I'm able to compartmentalize and like... Um, I don't wanna go fight in a war. Like, that's not why I watch this stuff. I watch it because I find it to be

A, like exciting, but B, also like an interesting window through which to look at like, like the world, but also like, what is the person writing this and making this piece of content or storytelling think about this stuff? And I appreciate it when it's like highly stylized and incredibly like individualistic. And I also appreciate it when it's like this where it's like, it's pretty flat. You know, you can't, you can't really find a signature in here. Other than like Garland's more recent period of bombast of like widescreen bombast is like, I guess the definitional thing that we're talking about stylistically. It's so fascinating that he's like, kind of wiping his hands of filmmaking right now.

I'll believe that when I actually have time. We talked about it a little bit and I, you know, I nudged him on it as much as I could, but he's now, he's kind of figured something out in terms of sound design, cutting style. And frankly, like that kind of spare characterization that feels like this really bare bones, gritty, impressive, it's like a really good mechanic who you just know, knows how to fix your car every time. Like it takes a long time sometimes to figure out the tools part because he's obviously

an incredibly inventive writer and loves like big worlds with complicated ideas. Oh, one of the great, like, elevator pitch people I can think of. Yes. Like, if I just tell you like, hey, there's this Alex Garland movie and it's about this, you're like, oh, God, I gotta see that. Yes, he's great.

He's clearly great at that stuff and has nailed that as both a screenwriter and a filmmaker. But now I can kind of feel him getting like really good. Part of, just part of what's so great about Civil War is experientially, it's one of the loudest, the most immersive movies you can see, even if you struggle with the story, which we didn't. So for him to kind of like close the door for a while with this, which is this like very tight, restrained, political but removed kind of a story, feels like an

interesting step and now he's, you know, he's writing the new 28 Years Later movie and the one after that. And, you know, it's kind of gone back. Unwrap the early days of your favorite hockey stars with Tim's new retrospective rookies hockey cards featuring exclusive NHL and PWHL players and retired legends. Collect them all only at Tim's. At participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. -♪ BGM playing over radio music playing out loud. I was thinking about how this movie fits in with, at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time.

I was thinking about how this movie fits in with, you know, there was obviously a lot of contemporaneous cinema about World War II. We talked a bit about that when we did the episode about Blitz with Rob last year. And then there's tons of it about Vietnam. Brian Raftery hosted that great series on the big picture feed a few years ago. And a lot of those movies in the 70s, especially into the early 80s and Oliver Stone found ways to be both emotional and culturally and politically critical and in some ways I think kind of moved the needle on our perspective. That's the perfect way of putting it. And Iraq and Afghanistan and 21st century conflict has been more miasmic the way we understand them.

You know, they're not like traditional land wars. They're not like bombing escapades, like the introduction of drone strikes and the way that we understand how those governments are managed and what defines them and the sort of like intersectional warfare that's happening alongside of the US interventionism. Yeah. It's very complicated. I think the elevation of like special operators above like grunts kind of is a, is, has been noticed, notable over the last like 10 years, especially like, I think of the films made

about 21st century conflicts specifically, but even I would go as far as to say the war films of this century are more defined by their technological filmmaking innovation than they are about whether or not they have changed the way we think about war as a society. war as a society. So I think that as filmmakers are becoming more and more able to capture almost literally what it's probably like to be in a firefight and to be in a conflict, it's strange that we've gotten almost away from like political filmmaking in some ways. And I think that most of the movies that are coming into mind as like, oh yeah, I'll probably, I would say like Hurt Locker and Zero Dark Thirty.

I would say Black Hawk Down. I would say honestly, Warfare. I think of them as either films that have changed the, like the, basically the response to those films or the dialogue about those films has changed very much since their release because of our access to more information and more ideas about what those, what happened in those conflicts. I mean, Zero Doc 30 is a perfectly good example of this, where when it came out,

pretty much categorically lauded as a masterpiece and is now thought of as deeply flawed, and probably cinematically is due for revival, but I think intellectually and politically is... Yeah, I think what's characterized as the truth in that movie is not true. And that it was sold as a piece of like, you know, this is... Verite, yes.

I think there's examples in both directions outside of those movies that are interesting to think about. And kind of like how war is represented in them. You know, like the version of war in Zero Dark Thirty, and even in the Hurt Locker, is shrunk down. Mm-hmm. You know, they're not firefights. In the Hurt Locker, you've

got specialists and technicians defusing. In Zero Dark Thirty, you've got essentially torture and specialists analyzing. American Sniper is like, yeah, kind of a relevant revival, I think, of an old-school style. I think the movie is a little bit more sophisticated than the credit it gets but not as good As the other half will tell you, you know, I mean like somewhere in the middle And you know, it gets made fun of a lot for the baby and all that but that movie being a massive hit At the tail end of Obama 2.0 is one of those like sometimes you got to listen to what's common around the corner

in this country. And I think of that movie as very important to the story of war movies that like we're not yet done with this thing, even though sometimes it feels like we've progressed beyond. Because you know, if you read the original New Yorker feature about Chris Kyle, you're like, well, that's just one of the most devastating tragedies in the history of America. Like that is this is such a sad and complicated story. And then to watch that movie and to see people like crying and sort of like moved and patriotic at that film, which is like some of its intention, but not all of its intention, I think is such a fascinating, prismatic movie watching, movie collecting experience. Because if you saw the Hurt Locker or Green Zone, that's what I think about sometimes.

You know, where Green Zone was an attempt to accurately capture this very problematic era of US interventionism, but did it in a way that was almost confusing. Yeah. Which I think is what warfare is in the lineage of, but maybe does better. See, I think warfare is in the lineage of Restrepo. Mm. You know, like I think of Warfare more as an effort to bring documentary filmmaking techniques

to a narrative film and working primarily on like, what is the granular experience of people who were there and why is it important that we remember that? Yeah, I think that's right. There have been other movies that have tried to do that without the documentary style. Like, I haven't seen this movie in a while, but Kimberly Pierce's Stop Loss, which is very soon after a lot of the events in particular. I think that the movie is in 2008, which was sold as a very important movie that year and did not really connect and has a little bit lost the time

another example of a movie I think was like It's I've watched it recently and it's like kind of has some really great parts and then it has some utterly shit parts is Jarhead. Yeah That's about the 90s Iraq War, but it could also apply to the 2000s But it's fascinating. I think that the war films that will probably be remembered from this era are all movies about World War II. It's Dunkirk, it's Inglourious Basterds, you know, 1917 about the First World War. But you know, like, I think that there's just more of a comfort with the lines of that era.

Yeah, I agree with you. It makes me wonder how warfare is going to do, for lack of a better phrase. Yeah, I agree with you. It makes me wonder how warfare is gonna do, for lack of a better phrase. Yeah. Like that's a kind of movie, it reminds me a little bit of, you know, like, viewers getting wrong-footed on horror movies,

where a horror movie is sold one way, and you're like, this is gonna be this, this is gonna be a crazy killer clown movie, and then it's just like a very quiet analysis of inner trauma. I've been there on a Saturday night where the entire day has been building towards like watching this thing

and it's like, Maren Ireland taking care of her dad for two hours. Yeah. And then like he turns into a ghost at the end. Like that's... Yes, yes. And when Saving Private Ryan came out to the point you were making

at the beginning of the conversation, I think there was a sense that it was going to be upsetting, but also this powerful tribute. And it is both of those things, but the movie is remembered as this, like, legendary war movie ode to the men who served. Yeah. Warfare is absolutely an ode to the men who served that day, but you don't walk out feeling a tear in your heart. You feel, like, shaken. I think that the people who were there in the theater there with us that day were pretty shaken as well.

I agree. It was for what it's worth. Like, I think it was very solemnly and respectfully received, but I was not like, it wasn't like a bunch of people like lept up and were like, fuck yeah. What did you make of that? Um, I think because it's a horrifying thing to experience. And I think that a lot of, I would imagine that this like filled in the blanks

on a lot of people's memories, even though, you know, in some ways the lack of specificity in terms of context around why they're there, what they're doing, what like where they're going, it could be a lot of different conflicts. It could be, I'm sure for anybody who served, it's probably fills in a lot of a lot of gaps. I was, I mean, do you think it's difficult to talk about like individual performances in this film? Like did you walk out of this movie being necessarily impressed by any

given actor? I was not a, I haven't watched Reservation Dogs beyond like the first two episodes. So DeFarro is not somebody I was familiar with, but I found him to be like utterly captivating in this movie because of the kind of role he takes on as the film goes on. And I thought it was an amazing contrast to who he is as a person, because he was on stage

talking during the interview and was just like such a sweet, light-hearted guy. But, like, it seems like a kid who might be hanging out outside of Braindead or something. Totally. Just like a hipster kid from LA is what he seemed like. And I do think that, you know, there's a sequence in the film where Charles Milton sort of arrives. Uh-huh.

And I was like, this is stardom. Like, this is star power. And if you watch May December, you could see he just kind of has the thing. Charisma is different from performance. I don't know that I was like wow Charles Melton is the next Marlon Brando but he just he clicks. I completely know what you mean. I had a similar reaction when Finn Bennett's character takes on a larger role in the movie and people may have seen him in True Detective Night Country. You just feel like he has something you know like you kind of there's a lot of faces that you're like,

oh, he kind of looks like that guy. And then Finn Bennett shows up, and even though he kind of looks like a bunch of guys, he has like a way of moving through the movie that I found very engaging and magnetic. And I'll also just shout out Michael Gandolfini, who I thought was excellent in this movie. And Cosmo Jarvis. I mean, like, they're all really good. It's all people that you want to spend time with it in many ways like Hollywood's kind of banking on these nine guys to carry us into fucking Fantastic Four and whatever other movies they're all gonna be cast in but They're not really asked to do much of what they would be asked to do in any other movie and yet the movie still really works

And hangs together. It's only 93 minutes I would recommend it. I saw a quote from Will Poulter where he was talking about how he really, really, really wanted to work for Alex Garland, that he was a huge fan and he really wanted to be in something. And he finally got this call and he was like, shit, I'm a pacifist. I, you know, like of all the things that I could do. But he goes and does the meeting and he's like, and they fully convinced me. So I don't know what that says about the ultimate project. I think what it means to me is that you could have your beliefs about like what these guys are doing and you can still see this film and it can still mean a lot to you. You know, I completely

agree with that in mind. Let's go to my conversation now with Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza. Very happy to have Alex Garland back on the show and for the first time Ray Mendoza. We're talking about the film that they co-directed together, Warfare. Alex in the past when we've spoken, we've talked a little bit about department heads and folks that you've worked with on making your films. I know you and Ray worked together on Civil War. Could you help me understand how you hire someone for the role that Ray had on that film in particular? I didn't hire Ray. It was Jeff Dash or Dash, as he's known, very, very experienced stunt coordinator,

sort of legendary stunt coordinator. And I guess you'd worked with Dash before. Yep. Yeah. And Ray, when you are coming onto a set like that and you're being hired by somebody like that, how do you communicate, make a relationship with a filmmaker in that environment? Yeah, I mean, if you know just like how the stunts work in the department, like typically I'm brought in by the stunt coordinator and I work either through him

or by him, almost like a bilateral kind of relationship there. And so I often, I don't speak to the director unless the director wants to speak. It's just more of an etiquette respect thing. And so, you know, oftentimes, I on some movies, I don't speak to the director at all. I work directly through the stunt coordinator. And I just designed these gunfights. I work with the stunt guys and we do stunts and special effects and all these other things. But on this one, yeah, I think Alex, I would

sit in on a lot of production meetings. And I think once he started getting to the White House piece, I started to kind of be a little more vocal. He was like, Hey, anybody have any notes or any, like any input? And I was like, I got, I got something. So I think when that started, as I started to raise my hand a little bit more, I think something maybe, but then you can speak on it, but maybe Pete is interested. We started to have a little bit more conversations on not just the tactics, but just kind of like this world this like these combat zones and what they would look like and feel like and um

Yeah, so some directors like I said, some don't talk to me at all I'm just there as a check in the box and they don't they could they could care less what I have to say Um, but in this case, yeah, it was a very, very in-depth, a lot of involvement on this civil war. I know you've been working in Hollywood for over 10 years, Ray. I'm curious if when you were a kid or in the service, if you wanted to make movies, wanted to be in Hollywood back then. No, but I like, yeah, I mean, I grew up in the 80s. So like just,

I can go on some of the best movies ever. In my opinion, many were in the 80s. So influenced a lot by those movies, but no, never. It had a lot of influence on, you know, me joining the military for sure. I think. But no, no, no thoughts of being in the movies at all. Not really until I did Active Valor, which was like in 2009. When we started filming that is where I was exposed to it. And then Lone Survivor is where I got hooked on it. I was like, I think this may be something I may want to do when I get out of the military. My dad is a police officer and when I was growing up,

he always found it somewhat difficult to watch movies and television about cops because of the like straining credulity or the storytelling or just like inaccuracies in general. And it was kind of interesting growing up like watching him comment on that. Did you have that experience like after you joined up and watch when maybe you went back and watched the movies that you liked from the 1980s? Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I watched them through a different lens. Like Commando, for example. As a kid, I loved it. Like the guy who wore the chainmail, like I thought he was the most scariest dude on the planet. When I watched it later, I was like, yeah, no. But now they're funny as like cash

lines we use like on patrol, you know, stick around, you know, we use them as taglines and punch lines now. But But yeah, I look at a lot of those movies and I it's the culture, right? It's it's misrepresented the culture, which is I think what your dad is related to like, like, they kind of get in it, but they're just misrepresenting it. Yeah, but you only know if you're a cop. You only know if you've been in combat. So you're having these artists paint a picture which they probably shouldn't be painting.

Alex, I'm curious for you where the idea of accuracy lands, not specifically with warfare, but in your work prior to this, because you're working in genre, you're working in science fiction, but when you have someone like Ray on a team who has this level of experience and then you're bringing it to a movie like Civil War, is that something you put a lot of time and thought into in terms of writing the stories and even how the movies feel? Oh, yeah, definitely. I I mean but but that time and thought and the focus of the time and thought could shift movie to movie

I mean to be honest, uh It's it's a very it's a it's an interesting subject and I I bet we could talk about it for two hours quite easily uh You know, you could say that fiction can have a very good relationship with truth. A fictional story can say something very true and depict something very true. And so that's what I would agree with that. You can also have a story which is ostensibly non-fiction, so it has the writer at the beginning, this is a true story or this is based on a true story, that's actually extremely misleading. And we all know that. In fact, the thing you said about your dad

or then Ray talking about being bumped by sort of depictions of military, I think non-police, non-military, we kind of know that's the case. We know when we see a film that somebody who does know about this will be getting bumped by it. We know that characters are made into composite characters and time compressions are introduced because it keeps things bouncing along.

And then, so living with this stuff, and also living, let's just say, to give an example, the history, the cinema history of war films, and how, how war is presented, how music is used in war films, how, how every, every cinematic device is employed in a war film, what, what does that lead one to understand or not understand or be misled about in war? And so then you could, and this is what we did, is just take a simple premise, which is, okay, so here's this genre, it's very well established, it's been going on for a really, really long time

through the history of cinema. What would happen if we just attempted total fidelity, absolute forensic attempt to recreate something that really happened? What would be the product of that? That was the starting point of this. And then you encounter something else, which now this is where you could easily talk for more than two hours, which is a sort of what is truth thing. Because unless someone was filming it at the time, you're never really going to know what

the truth is. What you're going to know is what people believe the truth is, or in other words, what their memory of something is. And then memory, of course, is open to the passage of time and stress and trauma and concussion. And also, it's even just open to someone else telling you the same story slightly differently, and then you fold their version into yours. So it becomes super complicated. But what we did was we just left ourselves this very simple goal and tried to stick to it and had a kind of generalized faith

that there is some important bit of information that can come out of the attempt to be truthful. That doesn't even allow for it is truthful. Just in trying to do it, something will flow from that. Ray, I'd like to hear you talk about this too, this idea that the film is based on memory, as Alex is describing, and that that is a potentially faulty thing. Maybe you could talk about, since it's so much of your experience and people that you

know so well, how you went back and rebuilt those memories and gathered, and specifically what you would do when things conflicted, and how you made that make sense in the movie. Yeah, I mean, I think just to back up a sec, I think how why memory is so important. I mean, everybody can relate to, you know, your first firefight and I, like, I spoke with like Rangers, way more combat experience than I have. Grave arrays, I have friends in all soft components.

And we always talk about like, man, like what was your first firefight like? Our answer is usually all the same, which is like, I don't ever remember. Cause you're so scared, it's your first one, you're so scared and obviously you get acclimated and the straw, the set of straw starts to turn into, you know, a toilet paper tube

and then eventually you just see everything, you hear everything, you see more colors, you're able to identify the specific people and so on and so forth. So that aperture starts to expand. We've all gone through that evolution. So depicting that in the film in regards to just memories, I think it would be a greater appreciation for the understanding that there is a lack of memory, that it is fragmented, and that the guys deal with combat in different ways.

Yeah, so for me, I think having that fragmentation, it was going to rely on everyone else. And that's how it is really in the military too. When we do our after actions, we're very critical of ourselves. And that's how we grow and get the military too. When we do our after actions, we're very critical of ourselves and that's how we grow and get better and so we don't make the same mistakes. But yeah, even as we are having these after action discussions or these debriefs and it's like,

hey, you did that. And no, no, I wasn't there. I was actually on the roof at that time. And so we do it internally with ourselves anyways. And we did it for this event. But we didn't really talk about the emotional components that time. And so we do it internally with ourselves anyways. And we did it for this event. But we didn't really talk about the emotional components of it, the emotional components of, hey, I was I was afraid guys, and I had overcome fear. It's just things we don't talk about. We only talk about just, you know, it's very factual, like, you know,

I came in, I buttoned on the left, you know, Bob went right, there was a shooter at the stairs and so on and so forth. But you don't like to talk about your emotions. And so I think that was like the most interesting part, but critical part that I was going to need to convey, or we were going to need to pass on to the actors. That was going to get us like, you know, across the goal line. You know, I think other films have like, they've taken that up all the way up. I think to get it past the goal line, uh, it was the best way I can describe it. It's like, it was going to require, I think really us just like be digging in those emotions of how they were feeling.

We did have conflicting memories. Yeah. Yeah, we, yeah, we did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how we handle those is just a matter of just cross-examining, you know, very like detective-like work, forensically. One person would be like a tiebreaker if I had the same, you know, memory as another

person. And for example, put it on an attorney kit and another person's like, well, I know I put the attorney kit on and then there'd be someone like a third person to say, no, this is what happened. And then, okay, cool, problem solved, next one. But say every time you interview another person who would solve a memory issue that either was a conflict, his memories would have gaps.

And so they're like, okay, well, now we have to solve that one. And then he interviewed another person who would solve that issue and then his memories and so on and so like, okay, well now we have to solve that one. And then he interviewed another person who would solve that issue and then his memories and so on and so forth. So eventually we're just kind of like cross examining each other's memories and I'm observing him he's observing me. And so it's just kind of like I said, very, very forensic approach to cross canceling out all the gaps in memories. Well, it's forensic whilst also having a sort of concurrent understanding and acceptance

that if it had been filmed, there were GoPros all over the house, what we made would not precisely correlate with what actually happened. And so hence, the film says at the beginning this is based on memories to acknowledge that because I think, again, going back to your dad, we all know that there's this gap between cinematic representations and the way drama works. I think we also all know that memory is not that trustworthy. It is incredibly trustworthy in selective areas. It's particularly trustworthy on what it felt to be that person at that time. But the actual sequencing events

or some specifics, not great. As one of the SEALs said very accurately and very helpfully. I don't have video, I've got photographs, I've got snapshots in my mind. Not a lovely, neat sequence that we can just dip in and dip out of. It was very interesting. It makes you think hard about this stuff. And then, yeah, we just did our best. Yeah. In some ways, it feels a little bit like an inadvertent sequel or prequel to the last film too, Alex, because that's a movie about journalism and gathering information as best you can, but invariably there is skewed perspective on anything that's presented to you. Yeah, I was very aware of the debate surrounding that film to do with context and agendas and

messaging and stuff like that. And I had an argument within it to myself, perhaps, which was about the nature of journalism. And this film was actually well underway by that point. I went off that the last time we spoke, actually, like two weeks later, I was then on this film set and pre-production doing the rehearsals and stuff like that. So it wasn't that this film was informed by the response to Civil War, but it was a response to making Civil War and thinking what does neutrality in an account look like? How close can you get to neutrality and what is the consequence of neutrality? And so I absolutely agree that they're extensions of the same thought process, and then actually working with one of the same people on Civil War as well, in order to achieve that.

Ray, one thing I found fascinating about the film is the way that the perspective shifts from character to character in kind of like a seamless way. It doesn't really feel like the film has a lead character per se. And I didn't even know until I was at the screening where you guys spoke afterwards that DeFarro's character was based on you and your experience. And he sort of becomes at the center of the story

as time goes by, but it really feels like it is elegantly moving from one guy to the next one, moment to the next one, room to the the next one sort of team within the team. Why did you guys choose to do it that way? Was that the best way to kind of collate all these memories together? What informed that? Well, for me, there wasn't any other way because there are a lot of guys did a lot of amazing things that day besides myself. It's not my story. And, you know, just coming from the community that I come from, it's not about me. And I would be, it would be disrespectful to even suggest that it's about me. Because without those other guys sacrificing themselves to move to our position, it took a whole team for

all of us to get out of that day. And I just, I'm not going to make a movie and not highlight what those guys did and how they felt. Because this, Elliot doesn't remember and he should know what guys did to save him that day. And that was super important to me. And he would want to know that. You know, he doesn't want to know what my perspective is. It's for him. And so out of respect, because they're, yeah, like I

said, a lot of amazing, brave things that day. And it's about that. It's about, it was a how, you know, a lot of these are done concurrently. We, we said this in the past, like they were kind of almost like a play. And we just decided if you know, I'll use this analogy a lot too, or if you walk into a party, everyone's talking, you know, and if you just sit there, it's white noise. But if you wanted to focus on a specific conversation, you know, you'll look and maybe you're starting to like read the lips and you start to understand what they're saying. And then you can pull back and shift over and see what those people are talking about. So then you can become a little more isolating

on what you want to focus on. So some of these things are kind of like that. There's a lot of things concurrently happening. There's Michael Giannone, you're playing a Elliot, there's me talking on the radio, there's will talking to Charles Melton, who's an OP away. So it's happening constantly. Even when the other guys are on a camera, they're still going through it. So it's a very kind of immersive 10 minute kind of a scene. It's also a product of not editorializing. Because if you're acquiring a bunch of memories, because if you're acquiring a bunch of memories and you're in effect treating them equally once they're verifiable, that will take you away from the normal narrative structure, whether it's a film or a book, which is you have a protagonist who's leading you through this.

And in this instance, someone who you might early think is the protagonist gets badly concussed and is no longer able to function in the way they were previously. And so other people take ascendancy. That is a real life narrative rather than a film narrative. And what film would normally do is, they would then take actions from other people and hand them to the protagonist in order to maintain that through line. One of the things that interests me in this film is the different ways different audience members then take that. Some of them actually respond to that and it gives the narrative a kind of electricity because they feel they can rely on

the thing they're being shown. And then to others in a way the old-fashioned studio note gets born out where they say I am left distanced by the lack of characterization or the lack of a protagonist or going back to the previous thing the lack of messaging or whatever it happens to be. or going back to the previous thing, the lack of messaging or whatever it happens to be. So it becomes just what different audience members take in and what they're able to find interesting. But the lack of editorializing, I think, is connected to what your question stated. There's one other external force that's related to that that is interesting to me, which is you've got this great cast of relative

newcomer actors, many of whom have been tabbed, at least within the industry, maybe outside of your production as like, they're going to be stars. You know, many of them are like attached to big movies in the future, or they've just come off of a big movie or something like that. And so that thing that you're describing, Alex, where you assume that a character is going to be a protagonist and the person that we're following, the film is kind of consistently wrong footing you by not necessarily putting the person who you think is the biggest star in the position to be the hero or even at the center of the film. I don't know how much of that was intentional on your parts. How much of you like even care about what status the actors have?

It wasn't that that wasn't intentional. There was some prerequisites, Ray talks very well about the sort of attitude that was required. One thing was just a practical consideration. We needed a kind of like absolute creative freedom in this. The creative freedom being no one kind of movie can intrude on the recollections of the people that were there. Nothing can be asserted over that. That meant we had to make it cheaply. Freedom comes from making

things cheaply in this industry and that meant we had to shoot it very, very quickly. This was shot in five weeks. It was the pace of the shooting day. Many of the shots you see then cut together, you're seeing that there would be one take of that thing, sometimes two, very rarely more than two. On occasion, that would be something we were really hammering to try and get right, but usually it's one or two takes. So we wanted an experienced cast. At the very beginning of the process, we did talk about finding unknowns and there is that other route one can take. It's not just discoveries, maybe actually casting directly from the military as an option.

But because of the technical requirements, it became clear that that would be dangerous. I mean, Andrew Arnold might say, no, no, you just chicken. Which I sort of understand. It's a perfectly fair point. But because of the schedule and some of the pressures on the film on a production level, we went with established people.

The interesting thing I think is watching these guys removed from status and vanity, I don't know how else to put this, but in a way how small the parts might be, how glancing in, again, in the terms of traditional cinema. And what it says of those actors, their willingness to do them under these circumstances, it says something about them as individuals, I would say. Ray related to that, I'm curious when you were in the director's chair, what surprised you the most about doing

the job? Because obviously you understand specifically the events that you're trying to capture the experience and you have all this experience as an advisor with the sequences like this. But what about actually directing actors, making sure that the sequences are working, especially if you only have one or two takes? Ray Blount I'll say surprise. I wouldn't say I was surprised. I'm impressed.

I was impressed by a lot of things. Surprise, I mean, coming from what I, not many things surprised me. So it was something pretty mind blowing to surprise me. But I was impressed. And I think what I was impressed by was some, you know, these guys are like, I don't know, I'm good at like conveying to actors,

like well, what my emotions and what I want them to do. And it's a huge tasking. And I think to say like, all right, here's this scenario where my friends' legs are blown off. And here's like what I'm feeling. Here's what this other actor is feeling. And they need to take that without using a lot of dialogue and just convey that feeling of fear. And the person that I was impressed by, I would say, I hate to say the most,

because they're all different, but it's Kit. So Kit, Kit Conner, who's playing Tommy, is kind of playing, I was using him as like this, like what the internal narrative of like everyone was. And so he represented like fear. He represented overcoming fear. So, you know, if you see Tommy very erratic and kind of scared to try to gather his bearings and what was going on, that's kind of what

we're all feeling. And he's provided that overtone for like the film and we check in with them every now and then. And so, you know, it was just like, all right, here's kind of where you're at now. And it just, his ability, his ability to do that with just emoting through just his facial expressions and his posture with his shoulders and like doing what he's doing to go from complete confusion, fear to ultimately accepting his fate and being a man. It's like, all right, well, if we're gonna die, we're gonna die with our boots on and our guns up.

And so him doing that and watching it, I was just like, that's probably like some of the most impressive. I do a lot of action films. So a lot of the acting is not the biggest component of the film. But yeah, seeing that from someone that that young was impressive. And they all did a little bit of that as well. Like really taking that, inhabiting it, and doing what they do. That's what's great.

They did a lot of that heavy lifting for me. They're actors, they're great actors. And I just had a, it's in the word, direct them in the right direction. They know what to do. I just provided them, it's in the word direct, direct them in the right direction. They know what to do. I just provided them the context and the assets and the direction they needed to go. And they collected not only on an individual basis, but collectively working together, they're helping each other out.

They really brought it all home. So that was impressive. They had no helpful dialogue because the dialogue is all situational. So what someone is feeling is not really stated unless you count someone screaming, I suppose that's stating. But Kit or Taylor or any number of them, it was what they were doing with their face. The dialogue is so technical and we never made any attempt to introduce other kinds of dialogue or to soften the dialogue, sort of to take the technical verbiage out of it. A lot of what Ray's describing Kit did would just be here and transmitted by

expression and empathy states with the audience. it was it was very pretty impressive definitely this film feels like a Fascinating step in a long discussed topic of war movies, which is that there is a sentiment that any movie that depicts war Cannot necessarily be anti-war and you talked about that bit, Alex, some of the kind of glamorization or even just the cinematic tools that are applied to a war movie. You know, I came out of this film not having served, just being just very unnerved, you know,

rattled really by it. And you know, a lot of that is what is depicted and the truth of it that you're trying to capture, a lot of it is like the sound design and watching someone in tremendous pain, you know, dramatized. Is that something that you guys talk about, the idea of whether a film can or cannot be pro

or anti-war in this specific way, understanding that you're trying to not editorialize these events with this movie? We did. It is a sort of complicated discussion. And it would go, at a certain point, it would go back to the neutrality state that the film takes.

So there's the true foe, truism, or war films. You can't have an anti-war war film, whatever the true quote is. I always think it's a little bit unfair on him because I'm not sure he meant all parts of Glory had already come out. I think that's an anti-war film and come and see, I'm sure that got discussed last time we spoke very clearly. I think broadly, you can't have an accurate account of war, which isn't in some ways anti-war.

It's just not possible. Whether that's the loudest thing that comes through, because there's heroism and music or drama or romance or something seductive in some ways, whether that's the strongest thing that comes through. But any fair account of war will be anti, which I would just say is different from being pacifist. Like a pacifist says, war ever and anti-war says war is a last resort. And I think that to me, therefore, and Ray can have a different position on this, to me, it is inevitably anti-war because you see the trauma, physical and otherwise, exacted on military people and civilians and children.

So where are you supposed to go with that? Except it would be better if this didn't happen. To me, it's anti-war, but Ray, you should speak to this because you know. It wasn't intended to be anti-war. I wasn't too much concerned about the why. Like why war is is more what war is. There's been a lot of movies about why. But failed attempts on what it is. If you want to know

why, then go do some research. There's lots of reasons why wars happen. It just wasn't my focus. I think if we were to focus on the why, I think the movie wouldn't have been what it is. Cause now you have to explain, you have to have a position on it. You gotta, you know, believe people. Yeah, you have to take a stance and then prove that stance. And then, so yeah, I didn't want to get involved in that,

but yeah, I mean, I think if you watch this and you say, like, I want to go to work, then, you know, if that's what it does for you, then, um, well, wait for the next one and see if we feel the same after, um, you know, if you do get to go to war. Uh, but yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't really, I don't have a stance on it. I don't really, if I don't really care, uh, I mean, I care, but meaning it wasn't my 10. It's not my focus. It's more about what it is. If you want to talk about what war is, we could talk about that all day.

Ram, curious what you're going to do next, given the tremendously personal nature of this movie. I assume you want to continue making films. Yeah, we'll love to. I think there's a lot of stories. Just the veteran community in general, we're coming, we're coming, we're moving in. So there's a lot of great writers. There's people that put their time in just like myself, you know, it just didn't happen overnight. Yeah, this has been almost 15 years to get to this point. It's been a journey.

There's a lot of other veterans who have lots of stories to tell that can write great characters, not just military genre characters. And so, yeah, I'm teaming up with different veterans to tell different types of stories. I feel we have a story to tell, not just, again, not just military stories, but just, I think, characters that relate to us and our experiences. And yeah, I just want to go down that path a little bit more. You know, I can say warfare is a

kind of a, it's a tee up for something I want to do next, which is like the coming home a story. You know, how are the veterans being taken care of? Things like that. So in that kind of, in that genre, are some of the things that I'm looking at telling me. Alex, last time we spoke, you seemed very unsure of directing another film after this one with Ray. Has your stance changed on that at all? No, not really. I wrote a couple of scripts for other directors for Danny Boyle and Nia da Costa and did this film with Ray,

where my role was so different from anything I've ever done before in so many ways. You know, not just because I was sort of recused, I suppose, or recused myself from some of the areas to do with, say, interaction with actors and production designers and costume and hair and makeup. And so many of the things that are day-to-day part

of a director's working life was Ray because he was the possessor of information about these things. And I have to say, I enjoyed it. It's a funny word to use in relation to this film. That diminished role really suited me. And I actually, I really loved working with Ray. I found it completely fascinating, very educational because I'm learning about

something, but also just, just rewarding on a interesting, on a day to day level. There's a film I'm sort of half like, it's like a long throw. It, it, it's unshootable for at least a year. So, and so maybe that, in the sort of never say never state, but right now and for at least a year, it suits me and this period has suited me. I also liked writing for other directors. It's interesting. Now I I also liked writing for other directors. It's interesting. Now I know that other role in a more intimate way, seeing that gap, that change between screenplay

and a directed thing and much more changes than people think, not least dialogue and scenes disappear and new ones arrive, then you're like, oh, right, interesting. And no, nothing's changed. Okay, I'll take you as much of your word as I can. I look forward to you and Danny being back together soon though.

Dude, that's around the corner. I know. Alex has heard this question before, but Ray, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen. Have you seen anything that you've really liked lately? Yeah, my memory is trash, but it's a movie with Robert De Niro and Jerry Lewis.

King of Comedy. Yes. Yes. My friend is a big indie guy. We watched that together. And yeah, that was like, that was a mind blowing performance by both those guys. I didn't know that movie existed until my friend showed it to me. But yeah, that was the last great thing I've seen. It was great to me. I don't know how it was. It was a great classic for

sure. Fantastic. A lot of relatable components to that stuff. Alex anything for you that you've seen recently? I was thinking, oh good, I'm off the hook. That's so fast. Okay, and now interesting, I do know the film, but I blanked on it. It's the Bob Fosse Roy Scheider.

What the hell is it? All that jazz. I watched that about a year ago and then I watched it again a few months ago. I found it just incredibly interesting. So I might have answered the same thing if you asked me a year ago, because there's a particular thing about it that's stuck in my brain and I can't get a shot of it, which is why I had to re-watch it. But I'm also now talking too much also, I'm now talking too much.

I know I'm talking too much, I apologize, but I'm trying to think like this year, because I always try and it's good to come up with something contemporary. And I'm going to say The Brutalist, I thought was extremely impressive, extremely interesting. I love, I just really like being treated as an adult by films. I really appreciate it. So I'll say The Brutalist. Okay, that was my favorite of last year. Good choice. Alex Ray, congratulations on Warfare. Thanks so much for taking some time with me. I appreciate it, guys. Thank you. Thanks to Alex and Ray. Thanks to me. I appreciate it guys. Thank you Thanks to Alex and Ray thanks to CR thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode We'll be back Tuesday with a new movie draft

We'll see you then you