The Big Picture - The 1998 Movie Draft: A Time for Betrayal

Episode Date: October 12, 2021

We are drafting again! Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to pick their faves and foil their pals in another hotly contested draft over a delightful time in recent movie history: 1998 (23:43). Then, actor Fran Kranz sits down with Sean to discuss his impressive and powerful directorial debut, ‘Mass’ (1:24:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Fran Kranz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's me, Sean Fennessey, host of The Big Picture. If you're a fan of this show, there's a new Spotify feature that lets you automatically follow the show. Tap the bell on the show page to get notified as soon as new episodes are released. By turning on new episode notifications, you'll also automatically start following the show. All the latest episodes from the shows you follow can be easily accessed in the What's New feed on home. Now let's get into the show. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is

The Big Picture, a conversation show about the year 1998. We are drafting again on this episode. It's the movie draft, 1998 edition, and CR is here. Later in the show, you can hear a conversation I had with Fran Kranz, an actor you may have seen in films like The Cabin in the Woods and the TV set. He's directed a very tense chamber piece called Mass that you may have heard me mention at a Sundance back in January. It's in theaters now and I highly recommend it. I hope you will stick around for the chat. First, let's draft 1998. This was one of the years that we put up to be voted upon last month i believe this came in second place who suggested 98 was it me was it you amanda it was me okay amanda so why 1998 for

you what was it that wanted made you want to talk about this year in movies the real reason is because i googled one movie that i wanted to draft and i was like what year did this come out and then suggested it. Then did you look at the list of movies? Yeah, and then I looked at the list of movies. I do think that after finding 1998, I read through a cursory list and I was like, oh, this is interesting.

This is more than I would have expected. But that's how the magic works in this brain, targeted goals. So you Googled the Rugratsrats movie you discovered it was 1998 and you suggested that we do it um chris let's start with you okay the year 1998 who are you what are you doing with your time are you a moviegoer are you a someone traveling the world what's going on i? I was mostly just reading early drudge, and just really, really, really invested in the stability of the Clinton administration and whether or not it was going to make it through this whole thing.

No, I was living in Boston, and I would say that movies were pure fun for me. They were purely a casual engagement because I was very into music i was working in a record store i was starting to write about music i was hanging out with a lot of bands and um going a lot of shows so movies were something i would usually do like on a sunday uh or like you know if a big one came along that being said when i looked at the list of these 1998 movies i think i've seen like 75 of them you know like like a lot of them also uh the b movies from this year uh were just real cable stalwarts that would just be like you know we cobbled together enough money to get hbo and then we were just like watching uh you know paul newman in twilight so just out, watching these like pretty decent,

but ultimately somewhat disposable, solid doubles to left movies. When you say we, like the guys I live with, like just like hanging out, hanging out at the house, like, oh, hey, look, this movie's on. Tell us about those guys.

Who were they? They were in a band. They were in a Boston band. And we all worked at like bars or record stores in Boston. So we were just kind of like and we all worked at like bars or record stores in Boston so we were just kind of like we were very very tied to the the nascent indie I guess post

punk scene post hardcore scene emo scene in Boston take your pick this is like before like crab walking emo you know what I mean this was like actual like you know promise ring Texas is the reason just get in touch with your feelings stuff okay wrap it up chris let's get um you asked i tried to get i tried to give you the out amanda what about you in 1998 who were you you were also into the crab

walk emo scene whatever the hell that is this is not to you know make chris feel old again but this is when the age difference is like probably the most dark. I was 13 turning 14. This was a dark year. This was, I mean, this was as bad as it could be. You know what? I didn't have a great time in eighth grade. My parents had just split up. I just really, I was doing too much homework. I, you know, if you have, if I hope no one, the age of 13 is actually listening right now. But if anyone listening has a 13-year-old, my sympathies are with you. It is just a tough time.

And so it's interesting. The movies that I saw in 1998 are sort of the movies for kids still. I don't know how many of the grown-up classics I saw when they were released, because like I said, I was 13, not cool, and doing too much homework. But a lot of movies that I discovered over time and later on, which is sort of unusual, actually. There's a real concentration of things that for one reason or another in college as an adult, I was like, oh, this movie means something to me. Were you excited about movies? Were you like, this is going to be a part of my life, despite all of the probably emotional trauma that you were putting yourself through at that time?

Well, so 97 was Titanic and Good Will Hunting. And I've said before, Good Will Hunting was like a real, oh my God, I love movies. And also I love the two men who wrote this movie and they're really handsome and they won an Oscar. So that's kind of when I became aware of the Oscars. Obviously, Titanic was a big sensation. So I think they were on my radar. And I do remember going to certain movies in the movie theaters in 1998. But I think I was still going like as a teen. I mean, I still had to rely on my parents to drive me to the mall. You know what I mean?

Like just dark. No, God, don't take me back. So I was maybe learning, but I wasn't particularly serious yet. If that makes sense. Yeah,

it does make sense. I was definitely going a bit movie crazy at this time. I was really at the peak of my Entertainment Weekly voracious consumption. How old were you? I turned 16 this year and started thinking that I wanted to find some way to be a part of this world. Definitely did not think I could make movies, but wanted to at least have some sort of access to the world of movies. Key thing happened for me. My uncle, who lived in Los Angeles at the time, who worked at a liquor company that was owned by Universal. And for my 16th birthday,

and I don't know if I've told this story on the podcast before. I'm sure you both have heard it. For my 16th birthday, he flew me by myself to Los Angeles. And we attended a movie premiere and an after party. The movie in question, which at the time was extremely exciting to me, was Blues Brothers 2000. Incredible. Now, I don't know how many of you listening to this show have seen that film. We have to get the music for Sean takes a trip to California and figures everything out. We have to ask to be like the Golden Girls theme song. Something has to happen where it's like you're sitting at the bar at the Sunset Tower and has figured everything out.

Well, on the 2007 movie draft, I told the story about seeing Transformers on some sort of work assignment and how I was changed forever emotionally. 2007 movie draft, I told the story about seeing Transformers on some sort of work assignment and how I was changed forever emotionally. This is actually, this is the real origin story. This is actually the time when I was changed forever for a very specific reason. Blues Brothers 2000, woof. That is not a good movie. You could not have told me

that at the time. At the time, at the Universal Amphitheater premiere and at the after party where I met all of the cast members, including Dan Aykroyd, John Goodman, Joe Morton. I was enraptured by the whole experience. It was a true

all about Eve style, this is Hollywood and we all can make it big here kind of a moment. My uncle was a wonderful guy. Really like showed me the world that I wanted to be close to. And upon reflection, Blues Brothers 2000 is quite, quite, quite a bad movie. Very, very bad. But I couldn't have been told otherwise.

And that is probably that is probably the time when I was like, I need to move to L.A. I need to be a little bit closer to this world. So it was an exciting time. But I don't know that I probably had something in between the two of you guys in terms of what kind of movies I was checking out I was I don't think I was totally aware that of the bigness of the movie world I think when you're in you're a teenager you're like I like my very specific kind of movie you know I wasn't totally curious yet I was still trying to figure out the the vast landscape but upon reflection this is a this is a big year this is a this is the you, this is a big year. This is the Armageddon Deep Impact year.

This is the Godzilla year. This is the Shakespeare in Love Over Saving Private Ryan year. There's a lot going on, not just in the movies that were released, but in the narratives of the movies that were released. I feel like you could become fully aware of the world of movies. Chris, what sticks out to you in the 1998 year? Well, I agree with you. There was like, obviously,

like some incredible Oscar races to, you know, rather formative or definitive war movies came out this year. But I still go back to this idea that there was a steady thrum of solid genre movies that came out this year that provided like a steady thrum of solid genre movies that came out this year

that provided a level of entertainment that I think TV has completely subsumed from the movie industry now. So we talk often about the disappearing middle or the kind of adult dramas that we miss, but I kind of also miss

Ewan McGregor as a mortuary night watchman and a murder happens. I think that there are a lot of like actually just fine movies here that were so entertaining when you look at them as like that was a two-hour experience and now it's over this isn't a six episode series or a four season show this is what we're talking about if you go and look at the wikipedia list of all the movies released this year you'll see a lot of shit, but you'll also see a lot of things where you'll be like,

oh, I'd like to see Campbell Scott in a David Mamet movie. That sounds pretty good. And there was a lot of that kind of experience with the movies for me. So for as much as the highs are important, and we'll talk about probably a half a dozen movies here in depth, I would really recommend that people on a whim check out like a random kind of forgotten film from this year. Amanda, what sticks out to you about the year? Well, this might be a reflection of my age, but I did see a lot of the dog shit movies that Chris referenced. And I think like we all did, you know, especially. You were 13 and you were like,

I got to watch The Spanish Prisoner. No, but i definitely saw patch adams and like what dreams may come in theaters and was like what's going on and and remember those and remember being confused so i agree with chris that it's just it seems like we all as pop culture consumers consumed more of it but you know i agree there's also variety I was preparing. I'm in New York currently recording this podcast. Lovely to be here. What a great city. And was preparing for this last night on the couch in my sister-in-law's house. And I was explaining to her how the movie drafts work because she gets enough of us on her own time and and I were just shouting like, oh, this, oh, that. And it was fun to see that someone else also had a frame of reference that was different than mine. But, you know, it's a pretty deep bench of things that you've just randomly seen five times, 10 times for no reason. One of the challenges I think of this draft is going to be because of the way we do it categorically. It's going to be tough to mention, I think, even a lot of the movies that I love the most. And it raises a philosophical question about the purpose of this activity, which is that is it to talk about movies

that we love or is it to make fun of each other? Is it to win something? I don't really know at this point. But as I look down, you know, I tend to make like a long list or a short list in every category before drafting. And I'm just looking at the drama category and I'm like, well, that looks like 14 or 15 movies. I'm probably not going to need a long list of 14 or 15 movies to draft a drama effectively this time around. But there's just a lot of movies I really like. Or even the noble flawed failures or films that don't totally come together somehow feel, and maybe it's just the passage of time, feel more daring and more exciting, I think, than what we might call the noble failures of 2021. Is that just a rose-colored glasses point of view, Chris, you think? Or is something actually missing from the noble failure of now? Yeah, I just don't think that they even

try to make those noble failures. Or if they do, there's two or three a year. But I think everything has become probably so inflated budget-wise that everything going along with it, whether it's critical success or its commercial impact, has gotten out of whack. Even when you look at the... I mean, let's look at the box office here this year. These movies would be like the 10th or 15th or... The number one movie of this year would be like the 10th or 15th of a year now. I this year would be like the 10th or 15th of a year now. I mean, obviously, it's coming in the wake of and still living in the wake of Titanic, which was is and is still one of the biggest films ever released. But when you look at the

sort of hits of this year, it's almost like it's almost like sweet and old timey to think about Armageddon. You know what I mean? Yeah, we talked about this in the 1984 movie draft, I think, a bit about how there was not that much sort of intellectual property in the box office. But even as late as 1998, here's the top 10 very quickly. Saving Private Ryan, Armageddon, There's Something About Mary, A Bug's Life,

The Waterboy, Dr. Dolittle, Rush Hour, Deep Impact, Godzilla, and Amanda's favorite movie, Patch Adams. Now, say what you will about the quality of all those movies some of those movies i think are quite poor but eight of the ten of them are original stories that is now deep impact in armageddon are not necessarily the most original movies in fact they are very similar to one another but they come wholly from they're they're created from nothing and there's something fascinating about that

because of course we know the box office does not look like that anymore listen this podcast is about a lot of things but like it's also mostly about how the 90s were great movie wise and like i mean it is and that's when you and i and like and chris like we all learned about movies and when we say they don't make them like they used to we usually mean because they don't make them like they used to. We usually mean because they don't make them like they did in 1996. And obviously 1999 is like kind of the peak of Hollywood and also the transition point, a lot of exciting things happening, a lot of exciting things to come, but you know, 98, like it's the on-ramp. So it's like, is, is as good as it got, I think for all of us just going to whatever local mall on a Friday night and seeing something that we still talk about 20 something years later.

You know, conversely, the Oscars does not always reflect that excitement that you're talking about, Amanda. Kind of a funky Oscars year, I would say. I already mentioned the Shakespeare in Love triumphing over Saving Private Ryan. In hindsight, maybe not as bad as it has been made out to be, but also at the time just seemed like a ridiculous point of political campaigning. You know that this was a very famous Harvey Weinstein campaign that was orchestrated and feels ridiculous, but Shakespeare in Love is not a bad movie.

It's a perfectly fine movie. It's funny that we're talking about this movie in the year in which Ben Affleck is reprising his role from that film in The Last Duel, which is very exciting. He's great in both. Wonderful in both. Otherwise, I mean, the bigger travesty to me is the Roberto Benigni win for Best Actor. Over Hanks? Yeah. I mean, the bigger travesty to me is the Roberto Benigni win for best actor. Sure. Which is just age like milk. Over Hanks or, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, Hanks or Ed Norton in American History X or Nick Nolte in Affliction. Nick Nolte's never won an Oscar. Ian McKellen in Gods and Monsters. Ian McKellen has still never won an Oscar, I believe. Any of the four of those would have been better. Roberto Benigni has basically vanished from American movies ever since this movie came out. So that's quite strange. How are you feeling about the Gwyneth win, Amanda?

I feel fantastic about it because I'm a fan of Gwyneth Paltrow. And I still remember this dress. I remember all the girls who tried to buy knockoff versions of this dress and express and wear them to dances. It was a real thing that happened. It's hard to pull off when you're 13. And this is, I mean, this is a great Gwyneth year outside of Shakespeare in Love. I like Shakespeare in Love. You know, it is fraught and the Harvey Weinstein of it all, especially in its Oscar triumph is not the best part of Hollywood history to put it mildly. But I do remember following this Oscars. I do remember being invested in Gwyneth. And I, cause I also think this is like around when she started dating, but I feel like I believe they met on the set of Shakespeare in love.

Those are some great photos. If you haven't looked those up recently. But I do also remember following this Oscars and I, this is maybe the first time I became aware of angry reply guys, like even before they had their Twitter internet, but the outrage that saving private ryan this great world war ii film did not win like how dare you and on the one hand like correct it's a it's a great movie and the the oscar politics are like insane and on the other hand like those guys were blogging even before they had blogs.

And I was like, oh, this is how it's going to be, huh? This is my life. This is what it's going to be like to watch movies. You thought that when you were 13? You were like, the reply guys will define the rest of my life? No, I just remember being like, well, I like this movie. Why are you guys so mad? And they were so mad. And there was a lot of sexism built into all of it. You could just kind of feel a bunch of people being like, this is the definition of a great movie. And it's like, you guys seem really mad. Chris is the author of several of those mad blogs. What do you have to say for yourself?

Yeah, sorry for storming the beach at Normandy, Amanda. Any other Oscar reflections? One thing that jumps out to me is the Judi Dench win for Shakespeare in Love, in which she appears in the film for, I think, fewer than eight minutes, which is a flex by Judi. But Chris, you also, you supported that

despite otherwise rallying against Shakespeare in Love. No, I mean, I think whatever Oscar tragedies happened this year have been mostly corrected by history. So like we've celebrated Cate Blanchett thoroughly over the last 25 years. Like everybody kind of got theirs out of this except for sadly Nick Nolte, I guess. It's tough.

I'm still waiting for the Lifetime Achievement Award for Nick Nolte's performance in Michael Mann and David Milch's Luck on HBO. Maybe the Emmys will correct it, you know? That will never happen because of all the horse murder, honestly, unfortunately, for Nick Nolte and Michael Mann. What else? Anything else to say about 1998 before we get to drafting? Should we talk at all about... I think we especially talk about this when we talk about the 70s. But do you think that there is any social, political, cultural, national mood or moment captured by these movies?

Well, it is the year of primary colors, which is based on the anonymous, later to be revealed to be Joe Klein, I guess sort of memoir backdoor story of the 1994 campaign for president by Bill Clinton. And obviously, you referenced Drudge earlier in this podcast, Chris. And I think there was a sense of a culture war burgeoning, you know, the intense fraction between or fracture between Republicans and Democrats. Newt Gingrich, I think, was the Speaker of the House at the time, the rise of conservative talk radio. And it felt like Hollywood was trying to maintain this kind of noblesse oblige about certain

things. You know, it was not necessarily dipping its toe into that. But you see it like in small ways. I think A Simple Plan is a movie that has some kind of politics underneath its fingernails. I think The Truman Show is a really insightful movie about the way that cameras are beginning to linger upon us. And that movie obviously had a lot of foresight. I don't know, Amanda, anything else about the movies that were made that jumps out to you reflecting the time? You know, it's an interesting time to be doing this year because I think the Lewinsky, does the Lewinsky scandal start in 1998?

Yeah, that's right. That's in the beginning of the year is when it kind of breaks up. You know, I'm not watching impeachment, but I know that that is certainly investigating that moment from a new angle right now. And obviously there have been several revisitations of it, but as we always say, it takes movies a long time to catch up to this sort of thing. So to me, again, also a good time to point out, I was like 13 and like barely knew what was going on with the clintons the wensky or anything else so i don't really i see more of a we're just going to continue to be hollywood and block all of this out in the movies it hasn't quite caught up yet and you know like maybe does a little bit in 99 uh and then you know our country obviously takes a turn again so but to me this

seems like colliewood just deciding to not to to be a part of it yeah i feel like the one example of of something that is trying to make a statement and i think you can debate whether or not that statement is effective as american history x which is which is a movie with a really complicated production. And there's a lot of rumors over the years about Tony Kaye, the filmmaker, and Edward Norton, who was sort of the author of that movie ultimately and who had the power in the story.

But it's a very earnest telling of a story about race and family and the role of sort of lower middle class people in our country. And it's like a extraordinarily on the nose telling of a story like that but it does it similarly to like something like the truman show has a little bit of foresight in terms of the division amongst people and this sort of like disenfranchised group of people in this country that would then turn to you know a life

of hate honestly and there was something it actually feels more like a lot of movies now to me i was thinking about this this morning where i feel like a lot of movies now um are putting sort of like emotionality and ethics and a specific point of view of the world forward rather than attempting to entertain and specifically attempting to make people laugh. I don't mean to make some sort of comedy is dead comment. It's more just like the tonality of movies feels closer to American History X to me than it does to, I don't know, Robert Rodriguez's The Faculty. You know what I mean? It feels like a bygone time movie going.

The only thing I would add to that is that there is movies like The Siege this year that I think are a little bit prescient about what would happen, not necessarily in a flawless way, but are prescient about the war on terror that would note was just, I was just going to mention that, you know, one of a movie that I actually like quite a bit is the X-Files, uh, feature. And that would obviously become, I think that was sort of a joke at the time, or at least it was sort of like, oh, they're going to do an X-Files movie. And now that has no sort of become the model of how all of this works in Hollywood. And yeah. The truth is out there. Truly.

That's the other thing too the idea of conspiracy yeah i mean that also had a lot of foresight so 1998 pretty amazing year let's take a quick break and when we come back we will start drafting we're back on the movie draft if If this is your first movie draft, here's a brief primer on what we're doing. Six categories, six picks each. Here are the categories we will be drafting from. I changed it up this time around

because I needed to make this a little bit more fun and a little bit easier to navigate for us. So here are those categories. First category, drama. Second category, comedy. Third category, Oscar nominee. Does that extend all the way down the line for the Oscars?

Any film that has been nominated for an Oscar is eligible for this category. In any category. The next category is action or horror. The next is blockbuster and the threshold there is $100 million or more at the domestic box office. 18 films qualify for this category this year.

And the final is, of course, Wild Card, in which we can pick any old movie we want as long as it has been released in the year 1998 in the United States. Okay. Bobby Wagner, we need to determine the draft order. Help us out.

Okay, here we go. Yes! A little natural sound for you guys. The Pallet of Truth. That's a C coming A little natural sound for you guys. The pouch of truth. That's a C coming out of the hat for Chris Ryan. Okay. Picking first overall in 1998. This could really be chaotic.

A for Amanda Dobbins. All right. I'll be picking third. Chris, have you strategized against the first overall pick i think this is your you're on a three game winning yeah so let's let's just briefly kind of tell people where we're at um hold on chris you're fading out hold on i'm sorry i can't what no fix your audio are you okay the hand that wears three rings only a few people know about this me michael jordan uh you know it's like a rarefied air it's like 99 me i

had a seven game winning streak that which no major athlete has i think me and robert ory stand alone on the seven ring mountain but i'm gonna tell you something uh you know i i was away this past weekend i kid chaos is back this is uh we're doing free jazz. Ornette Coleman is in the building. I did not do a lot of slotting. I did a long list, but, okay. I think I'm going to,

so, so what I'm going to do is, you know, whether you call it playing safe or not, I don't know, but I'm going to go with

what I think is probably ultimately my favorite movie from this year and draft Big Lebowski in comedy. Okay. Wow. Wow. That's a good one. Bold pick. Do I have to tell people draft Big Lebowski in comedy. Okay. Wow. Wow.

That's a good one. Bold pick. Do I have to tell people why Big Lebowski is good? I guess I should. It's a podcast, right? So, you know... Chris, is this your first pod?

First pod ever? Simply safe! Is this when we do this right now? No. So, Big Lebowski is the movie that I've probably seen the most from this year. It's the movie I love the most from this year. It's one of the funniest movies I've ever seen. It's one of my favorite ensembles that I've ever seen in terms of just all the performances.

Jeff Bridges, John Turturro, Steve Buscemi, John Goodman. And yeah, I think that this is the film that if you were like, you can have one from this year, I would take this one with me to wherever I had to go. Movie Island. So that holds a special place in my heart. How many white Russians did you drink as a result of this movie? Because I, Amanda Dobbins's had a lot not in 1998 1998 i hope yeah um i had like one or two but this was very much in like what is the cheapest human beer you know what what is like what could i buy for just barely a dollar at a boston bar are there other species who have beers frog sheriffs have beers yeah uh everybody just relax we're not we're

already blaspheming rango here we're not we're one pick in just settle down that's what we do so i i will go big lebowski great pick yeah thank you one of the one of the one of the best movies ever uh okay amanda you're up i am going to do a surprise pivot to the action horror comedy category and i will be taking a little film called armageddon there you go uh and i had to do because i you know there are a few action films in this year that i have seen but none mean as much to me as armageddon did i think this was my first michael bay experience This was not my first Ben Affleck experience, but, you know, came on the heels of a really formative movie moment with Good Will Hunting. And I, you know, I know I said this on another pod recently. I don't want to say which

one because I got spoilers. But I've never cried as much as a movie at a movie as 13 year old Amanda did at Armageddon. I was just like weeping. Was this the first major character death you think you experienced? Like in terms of like an unexpected, you know, hero dies at the end movie? Possibly. Certainly. Like this and Bambi's mom, probably, right? Yeah, Bambi's mom, probably, right? Yeah, Bambi's mom. And also like, you know, Ben Affleck singing,

leaving on a jet plane to live Tyler right before the dramatic moment. Like I was learning a lot about romance. I was learning a lot about life and death. I was learning a lot about oil drilling. I was learning a lot about explosions. I was learning a lot about Aerosmith, like all at once. It was like a vast education

and overwhelming for the senses. But like, I remember I watched it, I wept. And then this was like, do you guys remember the box, the television station, the box? Yeah, of course. Yeah. So I obviously couldn't drive. And so I just like spent a lot of time watching MTV and then switching to the box like when TRL wasn't on and I just remember that like I don't want to miss a thing like would come on the box a lot and then I would just like start crying again because you know I use things for the movies like again I was 13 and I couldn't go outside I don't know what to tell you were you wearing why couldn't you go outside I don't know I didn't have a car. My parents were at work.

Like I was just like stuck in the suburbs. Were you wearing giant Coke bottle glasses at this time? No, I had contacts at this point, but it was only like in the last six months that I've gotten them, Sean. Thanks for knowing. Well, here's the thing. Amanda, like you, this might upset you,

but I think it's true. There's a very famous moment in an episode of Freaks and Geeks in which Martin Starr, who is a latchkey kid, comes home and sits down and watches the Gary Shandling show on his couch by himself and just eats snacks and has an emotional, singular, isolated moment. And you are Martin Starr in Freaks and Geeks. Yeah. Right down to the glasses. Like I said, 1998, tough year for your girl, but I made it. And so did Ben Affleck. Bruce Willis had so much. That's okay. It was very beautiful. Can I just do one quick thing here, Armageddon to Jace, that is just a little history lesson for our listeners? We need to talk about how Billy Bob Thornton had planet Earth in a headlock at this moment and how fucking weird that is in retrospect. That he was a balding Southerner who made an indie film.

And people were like, yep, that is what if what if De Niro and Scorsese were the same guy? And this dude was just like in Armageddon. He was in Simple Plan. He was doing unused narration for Thin Red Line. He was making all the pretty horses

for like a four hour cut of that. Like he was just and he had Angelina Jolie wearing his blood in a vial around her neck. So like shout out to him. We don't make them like that anymore.

And nobody will get it. If I showed you, in 10 years, when you show somebody a picture of Billy Bob Thornton in 98, and you were like, this dude, the guys wanted to be him

and the girls wanted to be with him. No one will ever understand that. He was a double Oscar nominee this year for his screenplay, for a simple plan and his performance in a simple plan. And here's the thing what you just said is true but it's also not true because at the time there was people in the media i think

they were almost downright mean about it where they were like how is this fucking happening like how did where did this guy from arkansas come from and how like what spell did he put angelina jolie under what blood did he make her drink to fall in love with him? So on the one hand, he was celebrated as a filmmaker and considered a quirky and fascinating person. On the other hand, they were like, are we being punked? What is going on here? The true conspiracy is how did Billy Bob Thornton get here?

That being said, he's pretty great. He's a pretty great actor. Yeah, he's amazing in Armageddon. He is. Okay. So I have two picks. I will say I did not expect

either of you to do what you did. I don't think that they were the wrong picks by any means. In fact, maybe they were perfect. But I didn't see that coming.

And so now I'm left with an odd slate. In my heart of hearts, I'm shocked that Amanda didn't take out of sight. And so I have to take out of sight in drama. Yeah. I mean, I would have next. But again, it's like I didn't rewatch the other action movies, you know? So I was just going to have to like vamp about Enemy of the State, which I think is a really

good movie. But I don't remember totally what happens. So yeah. Yeah. I don't know what to say I I it's probably not even good strategy to take a drama right now but I have to take out of sight it's my third fourth favorite movie it was also nominated for an oscar right I'm surprised actually that you're not taking it in oscars but I might have just overlooked that I don't think I. Well, I'm taking it in drama because that's what I said I would do. And then for my next

pick, I think I'll go with There's Something About Mary in Blockbuster. To free up comedy later, huh? Yeah, because there are a lot of comedies I like this year. And, hmm. I mean, There's Something About Mary, of course,

also feels like there's not a whole lot of discourse about that movie now, but at the time, it felt like Citizen Kane, not in terms of quality, but just in terms of its power. It was everywhere and all over the place. And I don't know. I still like it.

I haven't watched it in a long time, but those Farrelly Brothers films, especially the first four, I think are pretty damn great. So I'll go, there's something about Mary in Blockbuster. Guys, any thoughts?

It's been a while since I've seen there's something about Mary, but when we were talking about, I think when we did, whatever draft we did where Anchorman was in it, I think,

I was trying to think of the most hysterical, everybody losing their mind theatrical experiences I had had along with Anchorman and Mary's top three, if not top two. I don't know if I've ever had a movie experience where people were rolling in the aisles the way that they were at this movie.

There was something outrageous. When the zipper scene happens in this and the hair, it's like... Yeah the the earlobe thing and the zipper scene were like i i feel like people were gonna start punching themselves they were so elated by what they were seeing so amanda did you see there's something about mary when you know i was i wasn't allowed and i remember because i knew you know the hair thing became a movement of its own um and i i wore that hairstyle a lot and locally sourced as i recall oh my god oh my god combat zone baby but i also like i can't i still react to it the way that i reacted to it when I was like 13 and I heard about it which is like that's so gross get away from me like ew um so I became aware of it first and then and I think that like

my parents became aware of it and were like you will not be seeing this movie and I still followed rules then which is again just tough year um so like then I saw it in college and it was very funny but it's another thing where at that point all the people kind of ripping off everything that there's something about mary and i also had like had so much cameron diaz experience outside of it you know and her trying to recreate this magic moment i guess that i was like oh this is cool but i'm glad you brought that up actually in addition to the there being some real idiosyncrasy in this movie like it being narrated by jonathan richmond which is just so crazy in retrospect um cameron diaz was not nominated for an oscar but she was i think she won the new york film critics circle

award for best actress i think she was golden globe nominated for this like there was a moment here where it seemed like she was going to be celebrated for a movie in which she uses ejaculate ejaculate thank you Chris that word as hair gel and that would that feels like a pretty radical thing in our culture I'm not so sure we would be willing to do that people like oh like the great comedians of the 1920s and 30s. Like it was like a Claudette Colbert-esque performance from her, right?

Yes. But which is? But which is? Well, sorry. You're absolutely right, both of you. Thank you for using those words on this pod.

Okay, so I've taken two movies. Amanda, you're up. So I just spent like a couple seconds trying to read chris ryan's mind which i think is always a bad idea dangerous territory um i i okay what i'm going to do is i'm going to take rushmore and comedy um because i know that chris likes wes anderson, and I, Sean, I felt like this might also be on your list, even though I get to draft again before you do. But, um, I didn't see this movie in 1998.

I was not cool enough. Um, and also probably not old enough, honestly, but this was my first Wes Anderson movie. I remember it very clearly because one of my best friends grew up in Houston and best friends in college grew up in Houston and showed it to me very early on. And I think this was not my first Bill Murray experience because I loved Groundhog Day, but kind of like in the same way that this reinvented Bill Murray's career, it also reinvented Bill Murray in my eyes. It obviously taught me about Wes Anderson, who became one of my favorite filmmakers. And I was just like, oh, I didn't know that you could do this in movies and caught me at an impressionable time. And I'm sure we'll

talk more about it next week or in a couple of weeks when we talk about Wes Anderson and French Dispatch. But I have just always been sold on his particular style. I caught it young and it felt very new to me, even though it is obviously referencing decades of cinema history. So also fun fact, that same friend who introduced me to Rushmore, I became the godmother to her child. I am in charge of a child's spiritual development. And I believe like is that what godmothers do hold on yeah yeah yeah let's go let's go back yeah for a second what um well i let's let's talk about the spiritual development that you've been supplying this child sure well

the main thing is like so this this was filmed in houston and the christening that i went to where i rejected satan and all of his works with the baby was like on the site of rushmore i was there and i was just like no satan so what do you have to say to that well but since then what spiritual guidance have you given this this human very little i sent him cool books um that's about it like the bible like what are you talking about no i sent him literature that i'm worried is not available in houston texas i did actually catch her on the ride yeah i mean who knows at this point i sent him a book about wes anderson actually i was like because i thought you might be interested in this because it's this

child a 37 year old man no but he's very precocious i'm very proud of him that's dope yeah that's cool anyway what does this have to do with rushmore because he went to houston what's going on whatever i just sharing my personal connection to rushmore and also rejecting satan which i just think it's important that people know i've done rushmore is great man i can't wait to talk about this movie i can't wait to rewatch it. This is probably the movie that made me realize that not all movies have to be the same. Yeah. I was like, what is the tone of this? That's a really good way of putting it. Yeah. You know, there's something very, very unique about it. I hadn't seen, I saw Bottle Rocket after it. And, you know, we talked about that with a couple of other filmmakers in the past, like Nora Ephron, you have that kind of relationship to Chris and I

have it to Tarantino where you see a movie and're like oh you can do it a little bit differently but Rushmore really had me on my on my heels you know I never I never saw anything like that so great pick uh CR you have six oh boy let's go double Damon all right so for drama I'm gonna take rounders wow and for Oscars I'm going to take Rounders. Wow. And for Oscars, I'm going to take Saving Private Ryan. What is happening? I'm so proud of you. What is happening? I am so proud of you. That is beautiful.

My guy, Matty, just came fucking through with the hammer in 98. And I love it. I love it for me. I love it for him. Let's go play some cards. I wasn't going to do it, but you did it and you're a king just on just end the pod just this is the last draft because i took rounders for you just shut it down this is shameful why is it shameful you had two picks you could have taken it you

left it on the board you hurt me you hurt me i have entrusted you with so much in my life chris i have relied upon you so deeply over the years. I've come to feel closer to you than I ever could have known. I hope that this rant is because of how close you feel to Saving Private Ryan. I hope this has nothing to do with rounders and you're just like... The thing is, I went through my life thinking I was Mike McD, but I'm Worm, you know, and I get what I deserve. So this is my just desserts. Keep grinding out that red money, baby.

That's right. I thought you were a knish, but you're not. You're fucking Teddy KGB, and it's shameful. You're just really mad. That's so dope. What a great year for an actor in this year, in this, you know, obviously only a brief part in Saving Private Ryan.

Saving Private Ryan, I think, is underrated at this point. I think, I at least think so. I watched it last week. It was on cable and I happened to see it. And it was interesting because I actually watched the second half because that was on before like a football game or something. And I was like, oh, you know, like a lot of times, I think that if you're re-watching Saving Private Ryan

and you can get through the storming of the beach, like after that, you're just, you know, maybe you're just like, well, I did did the hard part maybe some people don't finish it that ending that town assault sequence at the end is actually like like some of the best action filmmaking i've ever seen in terms of you're kind of always aware spatially of where everybody is in this in this small uh village so it's just uh's just such an incredible accomplishment of filmmaking. I think people may find some of the capstones

on either end a little corny, but I just thought it's a remarkable movie. And what can be said about Rounders? It's one of the most rewatchable movies of all time. Sean was just like staring into the distance throughout that.

That was so sad, but also so satisfying. Just organizing my thoughts. Just thinking about how we're going to go forward on this show without Chris's participation. throughout that. That was so sad, but also so satisfying. Just organizing my thoughts. Okay. Just thinking about how we're going to go forward on this show without Chris's participation.

And, you know, we'll figure something out. You should have tweeted that I was on like six shows this month. Yeah, it's tough. I just, I extend generosity

and this is what I, you know, I'm so excited to have like Van Lathan in the mix here at The Ringer and Joanna Robinson. What an amazing addition she's going to be. And I feel like Mallory Rubin maybe should be more part of theathan in the mix here at the ringer and Joanna Robinson. What an amazing addition she's going to be.

And I feel like Mallory Rubin maybe should be more part of the show in the future. So this is just talented people here. This is just you. You just feel like rounders is like two. It's just imprinted on your soul and we should have just been deferential to you. Whatever's good for you, Chris. Whatever's good.

Okay, Mandy, you're up. Well well i mean that that was delightful and i can't follow that i guess i'm trying to decide what category i'm going to do my next pick in and i think wait can you guys tell me what categories you've picked so far i believe it's in the document oh sorry well you know our listeners can't listen in the document. Oh, sorry. Well, you know, our listeners can't read the document. So do you want to tell them? Okay. Chris has Oscar, comedy, and drama. Sean has blockbuster.

And drama. And drama. Okay. Okay. Well, I think that I'm still going to do drama and I'm going to put the Truman show on drama, which this is a movie that I saw in theaters. And so, you know, maybe I have a 13 year old relationship to it, which I don't know, maybe unkind people would say that that's like the deepest relationship that you could have to it. But I, it blew my mind. Um, and as Sean said, predicted a lot about cameras and reality TV and performance and

conspiracy, but just this sense that, um, we're all, uh, being watched and, and performing for people all of the time, which is ongoing, I would say. And it really became a reference point on its own outside of the movie itself, but the movie is very effective and memorable. You know, the last scene when he punches through the thing, I guess like the dome or whatever. It's a dome, right?

Yeah. Yeah, like a dome or whatever. It's a dome, right? Yeah. Yeah, like a very large dome. Just a... A biosphere? I guess so. I mean, I hope it, yeah. I suppose they have to like put air in it. I don't really remember like the logistics

of the Truman Show dome, but you know, just an image that stays with you. So Truman Show. I mean, i feel like we've discussed it it's become like such a reference point that there's not that much to say and even beyond like how prescient it is i i i saw this again recently and boy what a pound for pound incredible movie like funny heartwarming dramatic incredibly directed p Peter Weir. I kind of hope we can someday do a Peter Weir episode of this pod. Yeah.

Because I think he's like low-key one of my 10 favorite filmmakers. I don't know. It's just an amazing body of work and this is a great example of that. Yeah. On a mailbag a couple of weeks ago, we talked about how we've never done

a Jim Carrey movie on the rewatchables. This is like one of the most rewatchable, dissectable movies of the last 30 years. So maybe we should do Peter. Peter Weir is getting on in years. I don't know if he'll release another film that will cause us to celebrate his work, but he is pretty amazing. Okay.

The Truman Show. Great pick, Amanda. Two for Sean. I've got two picks here. They would call these your hole cards in poker, right? Well, I got rivered by one of my closest friends

and I'm still recovering from that. Just a spite pick here. I'm going Ronan in action horror. Wow. This is great. Just because fuck Chris sometimes. You're on tilt now dog I'm gonna win cause you just picked fucking Ronan

I can't lose because you're not on the pod anymore so this is it so say farewell Ronan is one of Chris Ryan's favorite movies of all time it really is you don't even have anything prepared for this true story this is a movie I've never seen and I just know as a movie that Chris of all time. It really is. You don't even have anything prepared for this. True story.

This is a movie I've never seen and I just know as a movie that Chris Ryan talks about all of the time. Directed by John Frankenheimer. It was released

on September 25th, 1998. Written by J.D. Zeke and David Mamet who wrote it pseudonymously under the name Richard Wise. Cinematography by Robert Fries. Oh my gosh.

This film was released by United Artists. Sean Bean is in this movie. Yeah. Robert De Niro, Jean Reno, Natasha Maclone. Double dip.

Natasha Maclone year along with The Truman Show. I mean, just a terrific crime movie, terrific chase movie. So this is an action for you, right? Yeah.

Action whore. I like Ronan a lot. It's, you know, it's one of those movies where, because I have so much respect for my colleagues and the people

that I'm close to, like I normally would never draft a movie like this, but sometimes when you get stabbed in the chest, you have to do everything you can to survive.

So I'm taking Ronan in action whore. That's really funny. Oscar nominee. I have three movies I have to choose from here. I like all of them a lot. I would not say that they're necessarily like beloved films widely, but I like all three of them.

The Thin Red Line, American History X, and Affliction. I'm going to go with the Thin Red Line. Yeah. This is Terrence Malick's sort of big comeback film. It's an adaptation, sort of big comeback film it's an adaptation a sort of a quasi adaptation of the james jones novel and i think is probably the most

um dynamic and disorienting war film ever made you know a lot of war films that are widely celebrated kind of put you in the seat of the battle that's something that saving private saving private ryan does very well it's something platoon does very well something movies like hamburger hill do really well um the thin red line is after something much more poetic and ethereal and malik of course is a master of the poetic and the ethereal and it's a movie that i think is rewarding on multiple multiple rewatches which is a pretentious thing to say but the more times you sink into it and worry less about understanding what is happening and feeling what he's trying to accomplish, the better it is. It's also like a legendary Chris.

You shared this with me yesterday, but just one of the all time bizarre pre-production and productions of a film ever. I mean, every single actor in Hollywood wanted to be a part of this movie in any way that they could. Yes. Like flying to go meet him at the Austin airport. DiCaprio left the Romeo and Juliet set to fly up to Austin to meet with him to try and get a part. Famously, after meeting with Sean Penn, Sean Penn said, all I need is $1 and I'll do this movie. He basically did it for free.

Malick, hugely celebrated filmmaker who had been out of circulation in cinema. I guess he had done some things in the theater in the 1980s, but had not made a movie in well over 20 years. And I don't think it's his masterpiece. I would probably say Days of Heaven and Badlands are the two movies of his that I like the best, followed by Tree of Life. But it is a confirmation of his new style, which is different from the other movies,

which is much more impressionistic and disorienting and far less linear than the previous films. So The Thin Red Line is my Oscar nominee. Amanda, you're up. Oh, I'm up. Okay. Everything's falling in place for me perfectly. I'm going to go to the blockbuster

and I'm going go to the blockbuster and i'm gonna take the movie that inspired the whole 1998 draft which is a film set in the city of new york where i am currently and i'm also pleased to say not only am i in new york city i'm currently recording in juliette lipman's apartment my dear friend and jam Jam Session co-host Juliette Lipman, I wonder if she can hear me through the wall because I'm talking pretty loudly. And this is our shared favorite movie. It is You've Got Mail. Directed by Nora Ephron, which made

$115 million at the box office because people were cool in 1998 and went to see romantic comedies starring Tom Hanks. If I knew your name and address, I would send you a bouquet of freshly sharpened pencils, all time fall line. It is fall in New York. The leaves are changing, put on the cranberries. Let's all wear a weird gap and walk around and then make internet friends

really do questionable things and put us out of business, but then give such great speeches in the garden in Riverside Park that you forget that they basically catfished you and took away your livelihood. But ultimately, it doesn't matter because you have a perfect studio apartment on the Upper West Side that is weirdly spacious. I love this movie so much. I've seen it more than any other movie. This is my favorite Nora Ephron. Well, when Harry Met Sally is the best Nora Ephron movie, even though she wrote it, it was directed by Rob Reiner, but this is my favorite. The one I've seen the most. I think I moved to New York thinking it would be like this. It's not, but that's okay. The memory lives on in the movie

itself. If I were a spiteful bad friend you would have done it but you guys are too afraid that's not the something that's not the sort of thing i would do that's not my style that's just not my thing i think that's true but you know whatever are you guys forgetting every other draft where somebody gets stabbed in the heart yeah but this like the vengeance that would come upon you guys if you tried to take this one from me you know and you respect it and you fear it and i think that that's good those are the boundaries that i'm trying to set on this podcast here's the thing you've defined your worldview which is that you feel that no one took it because of the vengeance that you would wreak upon them. When in fact, I'm just a decent guy.

I'm just not an asshole. All right. That's just the truth. So think about the world through my eyes. What is Ronan about, Sean? It's an ancient, another word for samurai.

So it's a telling of lone men on missions forced to come together to resolve their differences in Europe in cars. It's a crime movie. It's about the color of the boathouse at Hereford. I think that's great.

Okay. You've got mail. Probably the most predictable of the picks here in this draft. I'm just stating facts. Okay. Like I said, I'm a simple worm in this draft. I mean, you don't have to be rude. I'm just stating facts. Okay. Like I said, I'm a simple worm in this draft. Chris, you've got your final two picks? Or no, two more picks.

I have two more picks. I said I have three more, so I have to fill Action, Blockbuster, and Wildcard. For Blockbuster, I'm going to take Enemy of the State. Yes. blockbuster i'm gonna take enemy of the state yes uh phenomenal will smith gene hackman movie about uh surveillance just basically an incredible cat and mouse movie one of my favorite tony scott's uh super kinetic just uh sugar rush of filmmaking and editing and cinematography some great great great great great ensemble acting

from just about every young actor in Hollywood shoved in a van and told to get coordinates on where this guy is going. Plus a really dope Jason Robards cameo. We've done this on the rewatchables. I just love this movie. Also just an amazing movie star Will Smith performance. Really, I thought like was one

of one of my one of my favorites by him i think and then this is when it gets a little interesting you know i gotta go um action here i'm trying to not get too cute with what an action movie is so i'll let you know ronan is off the board i know well it's action it's action horror right it's action horror so i? It's action horror. So you know what I'm going to do is I am going to pick the faculty for horror because I fucking love this movie.

I really had a lot of Josh Hartnett stock coming out of the faculty. I'm surprised. It's just really me and Guy Ritchie who are left believing in Josh Hartnett, but that's okay. I feel like this was a hot time for Josh Hartnett and Pets.com.

And I feel like both of those kind of went belly up. It's too bad. And a lot of money in Pets.com as well. So that was tough. Actually, Chris, you and I were just talking about the new Guy Ritchie movie. Which also centers Josh Hartnett. Yes. It appears that the one man who still believes in Hartnett is Ritchie.

Yeah, because Hartnett appeared in Wrath of Man in a supporting role. Faculty is a Robert Rodriguez movie. It was a big MTV movie. It had a big music video tie-in to it. Cleo Duvall, Jordana Brewster,

important person, Josh Hartnett, and just had a really, really like captured a kind of, you know, pop horror, late Wes Craven, little bit like a,

like a John Carpenter-esque like sense of fun at the movies with like, what if all your teachers actually are aliens? You know, that high school alienation

that you feel for is actually literal. The genius of this movie is in the teacher casting. Here are the teachers in the movie. Salma Hayek, Famke Janssen, Piper Laurie,

calling back to Carrie, Christopher McDonald, aka Shooter McGavin, Bebe Neuwirth, Jon Stewart, and Robert Patrick as the football coach. Stewart, and Robert Patrick as a football coach. Yeah.

And Robert Patrick still fresh off T2 doing a very robotic thing. It's really great. Amanda, have you seen the faculty? I don't think so.

Oh, good Elijah Wood performance too. Oh, okay. Amanda, or no, Chris, are you done? Did you do both your picks? Yeah, you took

Enemy of the State and the you took enemy of the state and the enemy of the state and faculty yeah I don't I guess I'll just get Oscar nominee out of the way so you guys can't be rude for no reason I don't think that either of you would take Shakespeare in love just to spite me but I don't want to be I don't want a million dollar baby repeat honestly um I was thinking about that last night, Chris, and I just like still feel really bad, but I had to do what I had to do. So I will take Shakespeare in Love, which has its issues for sure. Fraud Oscar campaign and also has its detractors, including most of Chris's friends on the Internet. But which I liked a lot. And I think also imagine I did see this when I was 13 and like probably

the first like Tom Stoppard that I was introduced to because I don't know, I wasn't old enough for the plays yet. And it is like kind of pretentious and silly in some ways. But again, this idea of like, oh, wow, look at people, you know, imagining the lives of great authors and imagining different ways to interact with these things that I'm being given in school that are like so boring. And I have to read all the footnotes for and making it come alive. And also, hey, it's Ben Affleck again. So if nothing else, this gave us the Ben Affleck and Gwyneth Paltrow photo of her rolling her eyes. So I'm very grateful for that. Amanda, where do you stand on the 2000 film Bounce starring Ben Affleck and Gwyneth Paltrow?

I, listen, we all do things that don't work out, you know, both including Bounce and that relationship. But it was good while it lasted. And yeah, I can't ride for that one. I'm not much of a dieino bounce cr uh i haven't seen bounce but i was gonna ask you guys if you had seen the alfonso cuaron uh great expectations from this year 1998 with ethan hawke and of course because this is kind of like a period from the kenneth brand of much ado about nothing through this period where it's like let's take period pieces and infuse them with like a lot of like sexiness

or update them for modern times and yeah it was just Shakespeare in Love is sort of like the kind of the peak of all this given its success but I was wondering if you guys if you guys dipped your toe into Great Expectations

Great Expectations wasn't that good, but I remember the soundtrack being really good. Yes. And this was also a time where I was investing in all of those. Because it was a little bit angled at teens. There was a hint of you can do this instead of reading the book, which I actually did. Not a huge Dickens fan.

But the soundtrack was good. Let's have a look at that soundtrack shall we so who is featured here apparently Uncle John's band by the Grateful Dead is Six Underground on this

Bessa Maimuccia which also appears in the film Tommy Boy huge fan of that one Sunshower by Chris Cornell I see not one but two Tori Amos songs which sounds about right yes Pulps Like a Friend oh Sun Shower by Chris Cornell. I see not one, but two Tori Amos songs,

which sounds about right. Yes. Pulps Like a Friend. Oh. Iggy Pop Success. Chris, I'm not seeing. Sneaker Pimps? I thought I heard that in the trailer when I watched it last night.

I am seeing the rarely seen solo Scott Weiland song, Lady, Your Roof Brings Me Down, which may have appeared on 12 Bar Blues. Do you guys remember when Scott Weiland went solo? RIP to the great Scott Weiland., Lady, Your Roof Brings Me Down, which may have appeared on 12 Bar Blues. Do you guys remember when Scott Weiland went solo? RIP to the great Scott Weiland. Huge fan of STP. Remember that? That felt like a moment. That was true 98. Okay. Well, so Amanda, you did not take great expectations. You took Shakespeare in Love. What was on that soundtrack? Was Sneaker Pimps on that soundtrack? No, but I do actually think...

Scott Wildwood was. I feel like the theme for Shakespeare in Love gets played a lot as like Oscar filler music or like at the Arclight, you know, when you're waiting in the dome. Maybe I'm just making that up. I wouldn't be able to recognize it if it did, but that sounds right.

I definitely have not seen Shakespeare in Love since it was released in 1998. Not because I dislike it, because it just felt like one of those people sort of like, okay, I got it. I've seen it, sure. You know, it is Tom Stoppard. It's not like a piece of garbage.

It is a very respectable film, but not really my thing. Okay, I have two picks. This draft has just truly gotten away from me because of hateful actions from two of my closest friends so that's that's challenging so i'm just gonna go chaotic here uh comedy i'm going fear and loathing in las vegas interesting i think of this movie as deeply paired with rushmore in that it gave me a very similar sensation which is when i saw it i was like i just did not know

you could make a movie like this i I think I also had not fully put together Terry Gilliam being a key part of Monty Python at the time. And I hadn't really fully realized kind of what his filmmaking styles and techniques were. This is certainly in a time when Johnny Depp was far less deplorable as a public figure. And it was far less annoying that he was obsessed with Hunter S. Thompson. You know, that came to be like a big part of his identity. But before we knew that, when he was just portraying Hunter S. Thompson, it was cool. He was like, I'm into this book. Yes.

That book is awesome. And Hunter S. Thompson was a truly great writer and is a fascinating person. Also, you were 16. And I was 16. Yeah, exactly. And imagine watching a movie like Fear and Loathing when you're 16. and i was 16 yeah exactly and imagine watching a movie like fear loathing when you're 16 is a total it's a brain bender uh so very exciting movie and not again not a movie i've seen recently but i probably would like to watch again and um also iconic

performance from benicio del toro as dr gonzalez an incredible hair work from toby mcguire uh yeah truly uh also toby mcguire you know set in las vegas i wonder if this is sort of the germ of his his rounders lifestyle yeah right exactly adventure it all fits together here the pieces very nicely okay wild card we're gonna keep it wild i'm going with wild things oh Ooh, Sean! Okay! Wild Things, of course, is a neo-noir, erotic thriller, also a comedy

directed by John McNaughton. Probably one of the most underrated movies of the 1990s. This is the threesome movie, right? This is the threesome movie. Yes. This is a movie in which Nev Campbell, fresh off of Scream, and Denise Richards, fresh off of being the hottest person on Earth, has a threesome with Matt Dillon. That's not the only thing it has. No, it's a really clever, funny, knowing

noir movie. It features a hilarious performance from Bill Murray. It features great stuff from Kevin Bacon and Teresa Russell and Daphne Rubin Vega. It's a kind of a sweaty slinky, I believe Miami set story about a high school guidance counselor and two of his students and a plot that they try to enact to get some dough.

And it's just a really, really, really fun movie. And it's a movie that feels simultaneously very conscious of the noir films that come before it, but also trying to elevate that tone by being even dingier, even more, I don't know, illicit, I guess, than what's come before it. And much like Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, I was 16 years old when this film was released in movie theaters. And you can imagine how I felt about some of the performances in the film Wild Things. So that's my wild card pick, Wild Things.

I rewatched this, I think, for when we did Erotic Thrillers last year. I did too. I mean, it's kind of batshit, but in a glorious way. It was a fun rewatch, I'll be honest. Yeah. C.R., you seen Wild Things?

Not recently, but I did see it. I did see it. Chris is blushing. No no i'm not flushing you managed to talk about jizz for a long time why is this suddenly making you uncomfortable wait i didn't take rounders from you why are you trying to check me i'm not i'm just i don't know um no i i were i was a i was a big fan of this genre of movie. Probably more when I was closer to Sean's age than when I was 19 or 20. But yeah, I was pretty into it. You mean my age right now?

No, when I was closer to when you were 16. Okay. If you haven't seen Wild Things, highly recommend. Amanda, you have one more pick. I do. It's my wild card. To Gwyneth, I'm going sliding doors just uh just absolutely classic um two guinness performances i don't think i saw this in 1998

but i it's kind of when i started becoming aware of a guinness paltrow because obviously she was in saving private ryan not saving my run lol that would that would be messed up she was private ryan she's private ryan she was in shakespeare in love she won the oscar she'd gone from dating brad pitt to dating ben affleck um she's also in a a perfect murder this year yeah i was wondering if that was going to come up i thought you had an outside shot at taking that amanda yeah like it like it was a backup backup if things got like really, really messed up, which I enjoyed. But Sliding Doors is like a now classic. I mean, the number one bad breakup haircut of all time, you know, or not even it's not bad. It looks great on her, but we all have this moment of things go wrong and then you have to cut your hair off like Gwyneth Paltrow.

And again, sliding doors has sort of like become a phenomenon of what happens if this moment would go the other way. I think based on this movie, but a delightful, I don't know if I would, it's not quite a romantic comedy. I guess one half of it is though. It's like a little dour.

It's like set in London. Gwyneth is like slightly more like down on her luck than is like completely plausible for someone who is Gwyneth Paltrow, but like very charming and like very influential to at least me. And I think too many women of my generation, both of the Gwyneth the style the attitude the the sliding doors of it all um and and really if you haven't watched in a while it does hold up it's like slow but in a pleasant way i don't think i've seen this film really how have you never seen sliding doors i i think i might actually never have seen this movie either, but just, Yeah.

This is like, but every, I mean, I mean, I say sliding doors all the time. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely in the lexicon of life,

but like, I mean, do you know what happens? It's basically she's her character. Does she get on the subway train or not? Yes. I know. I know the plot.

Well, I, you've never seen it. I don't know what happens in Ronan. And so you don't get to be a dick anymore. That's not true. He knows what happens in Ronin. Okay.

I've seen Ronin many times. Neither have you seen Sliding Doors. Sliding Doors I've never seen. It's really good. Okay, whatever. I love it. I think it's a great pick for you. Thanks, guys.

I don't really need your support. And you haven't seen it. Everybody's a little testy today. I like it. Okay. Sliding Doors have closed. CR, you have't seen it. Everybody's a little testy today. I like it. Okay. Sliding doors have closed. CR, you have one more pick. So this is my last pick, Sean.

I hope that we can reach across the aisle and just bro out for a second on this one. Okay. I'm picking from my wild card. I'm picking Belly. Incredible.

Wow. DMX and Nas in Hype Williams is is only feature film i believe that's correct which is a fucking tragedy if you watch belly because belly is absolutely sick i i don't know it's been a minute since i rewatched it i used to watch it a lot all the time around 1998. It was on a VHS loop in 1999 in my house. One of the great opening slash credit sequences ever featuring, it's like a nightclub heist

with guys wearing white contacts under blacklight robbing a nightclub. And then just some absolutely stunning sequences including obviously the Jamaica one.

I don't know that DMX and Nos give the best acting performances I've ever seen in this film. But I will say that the visuals like overpower

whatever problems there are with the performances. Also T-Boz, I remember being quite good in this from TLC. Yeah, she is good. And Meth is in this. Tyrant Turner

from Menace to Society is in it. But fuck, man. I used to watch this movie all the time. It was a very important element of my love of rap, especially from this era. So I just thought I'd throw that in for wild card. Chris, we're back.

Me and you are back. Do you think you've seen belly like more than a hundred times yeah because I mean the most long island I've ever been in my life is like 1999 being in someone's basement and people are sneaking like whatever bottle

of schnapps they stole and whatever dirt weed they were able to buy at the playground and just putting belly on on a loop and watching it over and over again. And that when the soul to soul hits and the neon nightclub at the beginning of the movie, I was like, this is cinema. This is fucking cinema.

It's amazing. I wish Hype had made another movie and yet it's actually better that he hasn't. It's better that he has this one totem, this one incredible moment. Nas, I know Nas is your boy, Chris, but like Nas is terrible in this movie. It's better that he has this one totem, this one incredible moment. Nas, I know Nas is your boy, Chris,

but like Nas is terrible in this movie. He's so bad. I thought DMX was actually pretty good. Yeah, he's good. Nas can't act. Like they asked Nas to do too much

in this. Amanda, have you seen the film Belly? Yeah, of course. I think it was on in college in the same way. So just kind of like

walking in a room and seeing part of it and then sitting down for a bit. It just like the atmosphere of it all. Did you smoke a lot of dirt weed in college? I mean, I didn't personally, but I think that that was all that was on an offer where I was.

Yeah. Okay. Let's recap our picks. A little bit of a chaotic draft here. I would say let's start with the drama category. Chris Ryan selected Rounders like a Benedict Arnold. I mean, you got out of sight.

You need to chill out. Well, I selected out of sight. This is performance art from him. As if like, yeah, I would get like this squid game of this draft. Like Sean definitely would be like throwing me off some bridges.

Chris, I really want to listen to all of your Squid Game pods, but I feel like it's going to take me like a year to finish. Like I'm watching one episode a week of Squid Game. So unfortunately, we're not friends anymore. So I won't be listening to your Squid Game pod. That's too bad.

Yeah, that's sad. I selected out of sight in the drama category. Amanda selected The Truman Show. Comedy, Chris selected The Big Lebowski. I selected Fear and Lo in the drama category. Amanda selected the Truman show comedy. Chris selected the big Lebowski. I selected fear and loathing in Las Vegas and Amanda selected Rushmore. That's a loaded freaking category Oscar nominee. Chris elected saving private Ryan.

I selected the thin red line and Amanda selected best picture winner Shakespeare and love in action or horror. Chris selected the faculty. I chose Ronan which was not a spite pick just a film that I really admire and watch all the time and a man is selected Armageddon in blockbuster CR took enemy of

the state I took there's something about Mary and Amanda got her fave you've got mail and in wild card Chris took belly I took wild things and Amanda selected sliding doors we all did great I think I'm sorry about rounders but I think this is a fun draft I think so too so there's a lot of

movies that we didn't mention as I mentioned at the top I think it would have been tough to get some of the films because of the nature of our categories here. Any regrets? Anything you wish you had a chance to shout out you want to mention here quickly? I'll just say I do like Halloween H20. I'm in that camp, so I enjoy, again, another Josh Hartnett movie. Simple Plan is quite good. The Bill Paxton, Billy Bob Thornton thriller.

Bridget Fonda is the femme fatale in this movie, right? If I remember correctly. I think she plays Bill Pullman's wife. Okay. Find the bag of money. Yeah. Yeah. And I would just, I also really like this John Borman movie from this year called The

General with an incredible Brendan Gleeson performance. So if you haven't seen that, I would recommend it. So I'm glad you brought this up. I don't want to interrupt the flow of our conversation about the draft but the person that we forgot who should have replaced Jack Nicholson and the departed is Brendan Gleeson yes that was the person that we screwed up on the re-departed podcast and did not mention Brendan Gleeson so good job there yeah uh Amanda culture of accountability here I wanted to say sorry yeah that's right real Nick Sirianni kind of kind of team um Parent Trap Amanda?

Yeah. Well, I was going to say there is like the list of grownup movies that I didn't get to pick. A Perfect Murder I mentioned. Also Last Days of Disco, which is 1998. Forgot about that. But then there are also actually the movies that I watched and loved in 1998, including Parent Trap. Nancy Meyers' directorial debut that's right um and i definitely like tried to get lindsey lohan's haircut in a parent trap which is by the way just like a normal haircut but i was like can i like i was like i took a picture and i was like can you do this and the person was like sure because it's just cutting your hair in one straight line around um you know also big lindsey lohan debut i suppose that would go on to produce uh some

notable pop cultural moments let's leave it at that um spice world definitely was into spice world in 1998 haven't seen it since don't want to know and ever well and ever after which is the drew barrymore cinderella yeah with angelica Houston. So once again, I was 13 in 1998. And they still made movies for me. And I appreciate that. There are a number of movies that I like that have not even come up in discussion. How about Velvet Goldmine, Sean? Incredible film.

Todd Haynes, who will be a guest on this show very soon for his Velvet Underground documentary essentially telling the story of a very thinly veiled David Bowie and Iggy Pop figure really great movie he got game is this year the Spike Lee Denzel Washington basketball father and son drama Bullworth which is Bullworth has it aged badly or incredibly well should we do a should we do a live rewatch of bulworth i i want 10 years it'll come around but we're not in that boomerang because i tried to watch it granted i tried to watch it right before the election for

when we did all the political movies and i tried to i did re-watch it fascinating warren beatty uh study and but no it hasn't we haven't landed back where bulworth makes sense yet good soundtrack though great soundtrack ghetto superstar of course uh huge hit out of that soundtrack okay on the one hand when i was born to do a pod about bulworth so we have to figure out how to do on the one hand, you, you, you're doing the,

you and all the people that you shouted out who are replacing Chris, uh, can do that. But Bullworth, I would love to do a pod with van on Bullworth. That would be unbelievable because he would be, he would have such great insight into it. But seriously,

the racial politics of the movie are bizarre. Listener, please do the vanity fair, better work cover. And it says I was born to be in it. Parentheses of Bullworth podcast. The racial politics of the movie are bizarre. Listener, please do the Vanity Fair Beto O'Rourke cover. And it says, I was born to be in it. Parentheses, a Bullworth podcast. But with Sean on the cover.

Wow. I would be honored if someone did that, candidly. But no, seriously, bizarre racial politics. I have no idea what Warren Beatty was thinking. On the other hand, he's basically Bernie Sanders. I mean, he's a Republican politician who transforms into Bernie Sanders in a mainstream movie released by a major studio. He's talking about socialism

and the corruption of capitalism in a two-hour satire. You know, like, Warren Beatty still, he was bold. He was a bold filmmaker. No? Amanda, you're distressed?

No, I mean, yes, he was bold. He doesn't land, I don't think he lands in a plane. He doesn't land in a plane. You're right. So, and that becomes clear pretty quickly and your plane crashes into the mountain yeah um but but what a beautiful crash you know it's an extraordinary crash uh bunch of other movies this year mulan not really a fan of that one the disney film but uh that was a big

movie from this year um pleasantville yeah oh yeahese pro con great reese witherspoon in this movie pro i think yeah pleasantville's pretty good uh the water boy this is the water boy and the wedding singer double year wedding singer was another kind of like that was that was that was on my yeah that was on my backup list um i'll tell you a film i re-watched recently that i just i think is delightful is john carpenter's's Vampires. Fuck, yes. Incredible movie. Yes. James Woods,

also no longer someone we can celebrate. Daniel Baldwin, just murdering vamps. Yeah. You mentioned Twilight, Chris, which I like quite a bit. I thought Twilight was

quite good, yeah. Very good film. A Basketball? Yes. You guys in on that? You seen that one, Amanda? No. No.

Not a kind of basketball. The Opposite of Sex. Do you remember this? Don Roose. yes guys in on that you seen that one Amanda no no basketball the opposite of sex do you remember Don Roos yeah remember black comedies deeply satirical Christina Ricci and Lisa Kudrow yes all right different close friends cast member yeah

the all-time shitlord movie your friends and neighbors mm-hmm Lebutte where's he labute was thriving uh that's this is a film that i've spoken with bill simmons about many times i believe he's a fan of that one uh buffalo 66 uh-huh this is this is when films were films man babe pig in the city i knew you were gonna do babe pig in the city elite film can't hardly wait yeah yeah oh yeah Amanda that ruined my life though for high school so wow tough yeah so someone now

has to put Amanda Dobbins on the can't hardly wait cover and I'll go on the Beto Vanity Fair cover and CR will go on the cover of Lost in Space where William Hurt is no CR superimposed my face on Malkovich and I'd be like i splash the fucking pots

whenever i want chris night at the roxbury should your head be on both of the guys and night at the roxbury on the poster uh do you like high art yeah yeah it's a good one lisa chola denko yeah so some really good movies indie film was awesome in 98 there's so many so many great movies and of course norm mcdonald's dirty work released recently featured on the rewatchables the late great gods and monsters we barely mentioned that we didn't mention we barely mentioned godzilla that's right i think that godzilla is quite bad though it's awful it was like, in terms of movie events, they really tried to make that into a big thing.

Dobbins, where are you at on Stepmom? I was going to say, too, I forgot her Stepmom. It was a fraught time to see that, I'll be honest. I literally avoided it for that reason. Yeah, I remember seeing it, and I was like, I can never tell anyone that I was here. Was that Susan Sarandon? Yes, and Julia Roberts.

And then Playing by heart. You guys remember this one? Sure. Is that Aniston? No. What's no, that's Jillian Anderson, John Stewart,

Sean Connery. It's like a big ensemble. Yeah. Ryan Felipe. I think that also remember, you remember group dates when you'd go to the mall, like in a group of like, yeah.

So that was like my first group date, but I don't remember any of the other players i just group dates like in wild things i was 13 years old okay like it was very tough i just remember that we went to see playing way heart which i think like felt very mature to us chris will you defend lethal weapon four uh i can't remember what. Is this the one with the triads? I don't know. I don't remember who the villains are in Lethal Weapon. So it goes South African guys and two.

Who's three? Oh, and four is the Dirty Cops, I think. Okay. Yeah. That's right. I honestly don't remember it. That's the Chris Rock one. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. There are a lot of other movies here. Well, there's a it. That's the Chris Rock one. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay.

There are a lot of other movies here. Well, there's a couple of movies that I do really like. I almost took Half-Baked in comedy. I really liked Half-Baked. I don't know if it hangs together as a movie, but I loved it. We're not talking about

Dave Chappelle on this podcast. There's all these weird bad movies like Hard Rain and The Replacement Killers and The Negotiator and Palmetto and all these weird bad movies like hard rain and the replacement killers and the negotiator and palmetto and all these like mediocre thrillers they were dope they were sick yeah hard rain is about christian slater and morgan freeman robbing a bank in a hurricane yep it's like what fire premise fuck yeah great idea Everyone who pitched that movie

and then worked on it was on cocaine. I'm almost sure of it. But like, just honestly awesome. Just shout out to Hollywood. Just can we get back to this? How do we get back to this?

This is what I'm saying. Like, I wouldn't want to watch a hard rain show. You know, I don't need to know the six episodes and about all like

the different characters. Just make the hard rain movie. You probably make even better. Let me give you a good example. In 1998, there's a film release called Desperate Measures directed by the great

Barbe Schroeder. Here's the freaking logline for this movie. San Francisco police officer Frank Connor is in a frantic search for a compatible bone marrow donor

for his gravely ill son. There's only one catch. The donor is convicted multiple murderer Peter McCabe. Oh my God. What? McCabe!

Michael Keaton and Annie Garcia in Desperate Measures. Come on. Oh my God. Take me back. Just take me back 23 years. Any final films you want to mention, Amanda Chris?

Nothing. I like X-Files. I think we covered it. Yeah. Okay. I mean, we didn't talk about Elizabeth at all, which I guess we talked about Cate Blanchett. We talked about still like, we didn't talk about Elizabeth at all, which are,

you know, I guess we talked about Cate Blanchett. We talked about Oscars. We didn't talk about how Stella got her groove back. I mean, there are a lot of movies. I don't know. Good year. Joe Dante,

small soldiers. You guys didn't talk about Joe black, which I really, I don't remember anything that happens in it, except for like the viral clip, you know, from however many years ago, I almost took the

mask of zoro in oscar nominee okay you see the mask of zoro that's a great movie i think it's the first movie martin campbell made after golden eye oh yeah it's really good antonio banderas reviving zoro sick jonathan demme's beloved chris that's one of your faves that's actually i i would be curious to go back to that i I haven't seen it since probably right when it came out. I could just keep like name movies all day long.

There are a lot more movies we have not mentioned. People are going to be mad. You okay with that? I'm okay with people being mad.

I mean, we love feedback. That's because I'm mad at you for taking rounders. Amanda, Chris, thanks so much for drafting once again.

Now let's go to my conversation with Fran Kranz. Delighted to be joined by Fran Kranz, actor and now writer-director. You've got your first film here, Mass. I'm looking forward to talking to you about it. Fran, this is a very complex film,

but also a very intimate movie. It's about two couples who've been through a traumatic event involving their children. Where did this movie come from? Yeah, I mean, look, you said it, a traumatic event involving their children. And I think it's, you know, without a doubt, it came from being a parent, a first-time parent. I had my first child

20, oh my God, you should know that September 2016. And the Parkland shooting happened in Florida and the high school shooting and Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School, February 2018. So she was a little over a year old. And it really overwhelmed me that one. And it was strange. I mean, honestly, it was a bit strange because I'd never reacted that way to these before. I remember Columbine when I was their age. I was a senior in high school. And that was deeply affecting. I mean, I'll never forget where I was, but we, you know, we've got it, we get used to them. I mean, it's, it's horrible, but it's the reality. They become kind of headlines and we do, we are collectively horrified, but we do also seem to move on. And this time I,

I felt like I couldn't do that. So I immediately started just diving into reading everything I could and learning everything I could about these things. And, and, and that, and the story was conceived out of that, that research. When you were doing the research,

was it just a personal edification, a kind of a better understanding of what situation your daughter could be or your, your child could be in? Yeah. I, I, you know,

it, it had nothing to do with making a movie or story. I mean, I had two screenplays, sort of two ideas kind of floating around in my head. So I was working on something else. And yeah, I think it's so strange. I honestly didn't know what else to do with myself i i mean i remember i got dave cullen's book columbine this uh a doctor michael reed who wrote a book about the aurora shooting matthew lisiak wrote about newtown i just started buying it up um i mean it's

i spent i spent two years reading nothing nothing about the nothing else but the subject matter. But in reality, the movie came quickly because I have my first final draft files, right, coming in April 2018. So we're only two months later when I've sort of figured out, oh, I need, I want to do this. So obviously, I mean, but I was reading kind of voraciously, right? I mean, I was sort of obsessed. I remember, it's also the subject matter was so heavy and distressing and reading these personal stories. I read Sue Klebold's book, A Mother's Reckoning. I couldn't sleep. You know, I was staying up so late at night reading these things because it was not relaxing. You relaxing you know it was kind of it was

agonizing a lot of this stuff um and so so yeah i was a bit i was a bit obsessed um but yeah the movie came quickly yeah do you do you know what you were looking for do you know were you just trying to understand why this was happening yeah i i think so so. I think, I mean, I'm going to get emotional. And I don't know if this is healthy or what, or normal. I never, you know, when I had my child, you know, I loved her so much. I can't help but think about what would happen if I lost her. You know what I mean? It's awful, but my mind goes there and I don't know but think about what would happen if I lost her. You know what I mean? It's awful, but my mind goes there, and I don't know what my life would be over. And so I listened to this parent the day of the Parkland shooting as this, and I mean this as sensitively as possible, but as my worst nightmare.

And I felt like I needed to know how to deal with that. I was so scared of that, you know, all of a sudden, a kid, you know, that this everything's dangerous, you know, to get couches or tables are dangerous, everything, everything's like, you know, and they get into, you know, one and two and start walking. And it's basically suicide watch all the time. You know what I mean? The sidewalk is a dangerous place. And so, yeah, I'm just this guy was just a sort of fragile person. It's funny, you know, I talked about this in the recently doing something with a Q&A with SAG. And, you know, when I found the church, I went to a scouting trip in Idaho. And the last church I looked at was the church we shot at this Emanuel Episcopal in Haley, Idaho. And the last church I looked at was the church we shot at, this Emanuel Episcopal in Haley, Idaho. And I was kind of telling the Reverend there what I had in mind and what I

wanted to do, sort of pitching this idea. And she stopped me and said, I hope you can start enjoying being a father. And it was so penetrating because she just sort of saw me and everything I've been doing for the last two years. She kind of saw it so clearly, the obsessiveness. You're asking me this very direct question, and it's so hard for me to answer. I didn't know what I was looking for, but it really, so much of it was just this pure kind of emotion of fear and wanting to protect my kid, you know, and thinking this, how the hell is this happening? How does this keep happening? So trying to find a way in which, because I believe this, I really believe this, that

we have to change our mode of thinking on it and that we can't just limit it to, you know, gun reform. It's not just about mental illness. It has to be this holistic approach that I think really is rooted in just how we treat one another and how we see one another in a kind of basic sort of how we can kind of cultivate more empathy in our culture and society and in this country, particularly because it's so divided. So, so yeah, yes. Anyway, I was looking for an antidote, you know, a way to deal with this. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's makes a lot of sense. When I watched the movie,

one of the things that I really responded to about it was that it was not looking to serve up an answer, but an antidote is a good way to kind of find a solve for that. What's it like, not just writing the movie and researching it, but trying to raise money for a movie like this and get people interested in making it? It's got to be a challenging thing. It's so sad. Yeah. No, writing, sending your script to someone is like asking them to never speak to you again. I mean, I the amount of people and I have had no hard feelings, no hard feelings, but the amount of people who just never responded to my, I mean, I had this whole list that the screenplay was one thing. I mean, obviously, I had people that got to, you know, people read it, people helped me, I got a lot of notes. But when it came to financing, that was even, you know, starker. That was even, that was pretty depressing. I had a whole list of people to hit up for money.

And eventually I was so desperate to make it. And I was so kind of defeated by that process. And I hadn't gone on very long, but a friend of mine who had directed, wrote and directed a movie, she told me, as long as you have a dollar, you're partially financed. I really took that advice. I just went to the bank and I created the LLC, a production company, and I put $30,000 into it. I started telling people we were financed or partially financed. I always said we always needed more money. And so that generated real attention and interest from agencies. Having the location was key. I was told by my agents, like, no, this is just

not real until you have a location and a date. Casting directors helped. And, you know, I got Henry Russell Bergstein and Alison Estrin to get involved early on. That created some legitimacy to the project. But starting with money got me nowhere. Starting with financing got me nowhere. I had to think of other creative ways to get people to pay attention to the film. And once there was a date and location, and once there were casting directors, it was not long after, I shouldn't know this timeline, because it was kind of funny, that all of a sudden, I just got an email from a covering agent. I didn't even know I had one of those. And she was covering the project. she said jason isaacs wanted to meet which was just floored me because this was so um this was such a sort of pipe dream you know and a kind of

hypothetical for the last couple years at that time and it and it even in even in my wildest dreams just having actors and getting it made no no offense to theater actors, but, you know, the people I had in mind were not names. They were not well-known. They were not, you know, movie stars. They were not Jason Isaacs. So that was, if anything, when I finally met him, I was intimidated or scared, thinking, oh, my God, what have I done? You know, now I have to deal with this. And I don't know if I can handle

working with actors like this. So, but yeah. So anyway, long story short, no, it was not easy getting money. How much of the kind of creative decision-making, because, you know, this is a, like I said, a very intimate movie, has a play-like structure. It's largely one location.

Was that entirely, was it designed that way entirely because you knew it'd be easier to make a film like that because given the subject matter i'm not gonna lie that definitely played a part i mean i of course it did i you know i wrote probably the only other finished screenplay i have everything else is sort of still in a rough form is is literally it's an alien invasion movie it It's an alien movie. And I, I remember my manager just being like, what the hell am I supposed to do with this? You know, this is, it was like,

you know, some hundred million dollar budget thing. And, and so I realized like get it, you know, just like, it was a reality check where if I'm, if I'm going to get my foot in the door, if I'm going to make a movie, I got to lower my sights. I didn't want or seek out one location, let alone one room film. But when I came across these meetings, it was sort of the light bulb. It all kind of clicked.

So that was an element. But I believe this, and I was adamant about this, and it was really this sort of guiding, it was kind of a North Star that the movie had to take place in real time at least the conversation i did not i always said there's no flashbacks there's no cutaways there's no inserts ultimately the movie the conversation does have a cutaway a sort of singular moment where we do something different but but it was so important to do this because we don't see people do this. This feels like something we're losing the capability to do.

I think we complain about this with our leaders and politicians that they don't compromise. They're not getting anything done. I feel like we see it in social media. I feel like there's just so much noise and the ability for human beings to sit in a room and listen to one another, to try and understand or reach some understanding and compromise or reconcile is this beautiful thing that it feels to me sometimes like it's going, it's endangered, you know? And, and I, it was so important that like that is the heart and soul of the movie that people do this in real life,

this happens and it takes so much courage and it's so extraordinary. And if they can reach some reconciliation or forgiveness, great. But just the fact that they're doing it and putting themselves there and how difficult that is, I just wanted to, I always felt like we will not honor that. We don't honor that and don't do it justice if we rely on the contrivances of film, like, you know, flashbacks or, you know, I don't want to take the easy way out because they didn't, they did not get the easy way out. So that, that was all important to me. So it, yes, in part, it was like a budget. It was like, well, I can't, I can't afford to do anything else. And then, and then also it was, it was the spirit. It truly was the heart and soul of the movie. Like I wanted to make a, I wanted to have a conversation

compelling enough to sit through. And I also, I wanted to remind audiences they can do that, like that we do have attention spans and that we, that all that it takes is a story and characters and good drama. All that it takes is real human emotion because that's really all the movie is,

you know, it's just these four actors, you know, I mean, that's the, that's most of what this movie is four actors emoting and i to me it's i said like intense and as action-packed as you know anything it's it's incredibly tense i'm curious where you were in your career when you decided to go for this was was writing and directing something you always wanted to do how are you feeling about your acting career at that point? No, I mean, that was it. Yeah, that was it. I, I, it's so tough. It's, it's like it i know you start sometimes you start to wonder am i have i gotten more joy out of this or is it has it been is it just is there's so much rejection is there's so much disappointment like what you know what how did where do those cards really fall? And it was tough.

And then when having a kid, I did not want her to see me or I did not want her to grow up watching her father just waiting for a phone call, you know, and being so disappointed by news that was out of his control or that he wasn't pro more proactive about. I wanted her to see me or to have some kind of role model that even if the movie was a total disaster, that I would go out and make the effort and sort of try to realize these dreams, you know, on my own and stuff. And I, I just, yeah, I, I, I hate to make it sound like I've reached some breaking point with acting. I love, I love acting. I'm on a TV show now. I love it. I think of myself as an actor first and foremost, but I think it took, you know, I've been dreaming of directing and writing my whole life.

And so, you know, I'm 40 now. I started getting into this probably around 37. I think I started writing on whatever the math is. So that's a long time to sit around frustrated. I remember, you know, I'd watch the Oscars and be like, next year, you're going to have made a movie. You're going to direct a movie next. You know, it's so sad. And that would just keep going.

So, yeah, I think having a kid was like, you cannot, you have to do this. You can't just sit around thinking about it because it's not going to happen. So you're on set with Jason Isaacs and Martha Plimpton and Ann Dowd and Reed Burney and you're directing them. Is it what you thought it would be? How did it live up to all that expectation you had built up in your head? You know, yeah, I give myself so much of it. I've felt I've been, I've been on so many sets that so much of it came easy, right? A lot of it felt easy. A lot of it felt natural. You know, I don't want to sit here kind of complimenting myself, but yeah, I think,

I think people for the most part thought, yeah, it's like, you've done this before. Now with the actors, specifically in the relationship with them, we had this rehearsal, this sort of two and a half day rehearsal in New York about three weeks before we started shooting, which was essential because we got to know each other and we really got to know each other. We, the ice broke very quickly and we were sharing a lot of personal, vulnerable things about ourselves. They're all really incredible people, very funny. We got along and that was huge.

So at least the relationship was there before getting into work. But nevertheless, I kept thinking, I look back and obviously I want to do this again. But very much, I was like a game manager. It's just, I'm at least not right now. I'm trying to reference like what they say about certain quarterbacks and, you know, football that they're not some dynamic, you know, superstar quarterback doing all these amazing things. They just, they just don't throw interceptions. You know, they just... As a Jets fan, I would kill for a game manager right now. I got to tell you. Oh man, I'm sorry. That was brutal the other day.

Yeah, I'm sorry. No, but you know what I mean? And like, I think part of me thought, you don't know how good you are. You don't know if you're good at this. I was nervous. There was definitely nerves involved. I didn't want to say the wrong thing. I think of these four actors, actually, I think they're better

actors than I am, you know, so I'm just, I just didn't, you know, I tried not to sort of over reach, right, or think too highly of myself. And so a lot of it was intentional, kind of giving them a long leash. And, you know, trying to really pick my spots and being very open with the material. I did change text for them. We argued a lot about certain things, and I had things that were sacred. But I tried to recognize that, look, they need to be a unit. They need to be this kind of organism. And I want to leave them alone in that room, which I did. My video village was outside. I tried not to go in all the time.

I tried to just sort of be encouraging and let them explore. They're veterans. They know what to do, you know? So, so there was an element of just keeping it, you know, keeping everything on time. At the same time, you're each they're really different they're really different actors and um reed and i had a relationship we're friends i was gonna ask you if you how many of the core the cast yeah beforehand so reed i just knew kind of socially your theater mutual friends and we'd hung out and we've always had a lot of fun together and we go see each other's shows and things like that and he's so sweet and uh he's been so supportive of me and that was an that was an easy that was an easy relationship the the other three I did not

know and and out it it's just she's not a method actor but she is so emotionally connected and i i said i was saying to someone it's like a possession it's like it's it's like she's either possessing the role or the role is possessing her but it's it's honestly i i hate to sort of overstate this this is maybe too strong a word but it can be frightening it can be really sort of almost troubling where you know this this woman is weeping in a rehearsal you know and you almost think okay should we should we stop i don't know how to talk to this person right now i it feels totally inappropriate to go tell her to do this again you know so there was a bit of um you know the kind of mental gymnastics of sort of you know just deciding how to handle the

situation in real time because of just the depth of emotion and the intensity of these performances Martha you know is someone that can snap out of it and make a joke but Martha and Jason you know they're all four of these actors strong-willed powerful personalities you know and so but i think the and we all love each other don't get me wrong but it was the the arguing you know and i think they'll say this that you know we spent nights together after the after a day of shooting and and kind of get into the next day and argue about it and try and change things or fight for things. And that dynamic, I think lent it, it was, it was great for the production because it added to the intensity and the focus

that we needed. But it was, you know, I'd sort of, there'd be times where I'd kind of pinch myself or get back to my hotel room and think, Oh my God, you know, what are you doing? What have you done? And I also, I, sometimes I'd worry. The one thing that worried me the most during the shoot was you didn't give these people enough time, you know, and that we're all sort of crazed learning lines and trying to figure out what the hell we're doing. But I do think, and I think they'll speak to this.

I mean, obviously the movies turned out well, but it almost, that kind of energy and intensity of our relationship, both with one another and the text was critical. I mean, I think it was invaluable. I feel like if we had too much time, you know what I mean? The intimacy would have been almost compromised. The way it was, it was the five of us sort of deeply dependent on each other in a kind of unique way to a film shoot. When you were filming, did you feel like this is going well? This is what I hoped it would be? Or were you panicked that maybe you didn't know when you got into post, you didn't have what you needed or like,

how did you feel when you were making it? The shoot was a miracle. Honestly, the shoot felt, I felt good. I felt like I was sort of born to do this kind of thing. You know, I felt like I was,

I was laughing a lot. I was giddy because I was sort of finally doing what I always dreamed of, you know? And so I'd kind of come in and look at them with a big smile on my face and they'd be like, what the hell is so funny? This isn't funny. And I don't mean like, you know, it wasn't disrespectful. I hate to sound insensitive. It was joyful to sort of be doing this.

And after all the hard work, the crew was wonderful. Everything we, our weather worked out right. You know, we, if we had any bad weather, we would have just been so screwed. We had no time. Everything seemed to go right on the shoot. And it's funny because you get into the editing room and there is, there was a scene at the end of the conversation, they go out into sort of the lobby of the church. And I don't think that's a spoiler. It was like so mundane. And that scene, we shot that first.

It was the first thing we shot with all the parents. We shot the room in chronological order at the end of the shoot, but everything that happened outside of the room happened. We shot first. And I remember getting into the edit and looking at that and thinking, oh my God, that makes no sense. This is the scene makes no sense. It doesn't, it doesn't work. The movie, I don't know if this movie is going to work just like pure panic. And it's so, it's so bizarre because now I look at that scene and I'm through the life of me. I can't even think of what I was worried about then.

You know, it's just the journey, the sort of dimensions of the journey are so sort of kind of vast and complicated. It's such a strange process that I'm not even sure how much changed from the, you know, the rough cut or the sort of you know that that first thing that i saw that made me panic to the end i think that scene is relatively the same it's just how you know you approach it and the perspective of it of all i think i think i panicked because i didn't know anything about post as an actor i say goodbye at rap parties you know and i i like in the we had a rap party in idaho and i was crying i thought i had like, you know, and I like in the, we had a wrap party in Idaho and I was crying.

I thought I had like accomplished, you know, I climbed Mount Everest and you've done nothing, you know, like nothing. And it's just so funny. So I think getting in and seeing all the dailies and not being able to see the bigger picture yet made me freak out. I mean, those were some of the moments, I think some of my biggest mistakes meaning where I probably created crisis crises out of that weren't necessary just in my own sort of panic attacks I that that a lot of that stuff happened in post yeah yeah was were there any films like this that you looked at before you started making this just to kind of, even just to get a sense of the blocking and how it should look. I loved,

we talked a lot about Ken Loach. We liked his realism. I, Daniel Blake, it's not, it's not like there's a, it's not as if, I mean,

it's not a movie in a room. It's, it's just a kind of, he doesn't, he has a way of not, you don't feel him as a director you know he sort of disappears and it's just reality presented to you and i love that that was really important to me and uh robbie ryan the cinematographer for i daniel blake he he also shoots some andrea arnold movies and which are which are very different in the sense.

We talked a lot about American Honey, which is obviously not a comp to mass. But we talked a lot about the handheld photography and things like that. And we talked a lot about Robbie Ryan. Ryan Jackson, Healy, my cinematographer, that's his favorite cinematographer. And with this just kind of happened, it was a total coincidence that I brought up Robbie Ryan and he was like, he's my favorite.

So we really, we always were referencing him in terms of, we want to start the movie as Ken Loach and we want to deteriorate into a Robbie Ryan, Ken Loach into a Robbie Ryan, Andrea Arnold. We wanted to, we wanted to have this sort of more formal, stable perspective and slowly deteriorate into a sort of handheld, more emotional photography. We also talked about Yasujiro Ozu. I'm a big Japanese cinema fan, Asian cinema in general, but he had for the opening of the film,

I didn't want any close-ups. You know, I wanted the first close-up to be a Martha Plimpton and the mother, you know, the mother of the victim. I felt she's always been my, Gail was sort of my spiritual lead protagonist and I wanted to reserve the close-up for the parent. And so I wanted everything to be wide, stationary. I wanted the audience to sort of not really know what they were getting into, to kind of have to lean in, sort of think about what is this place, to sort of shoot scenes. You know, we would place the camera in another room and shoot through a doorway. You know, we do things like that, where when a lot of this was things that we saw in Yasujiro Ozu and Tokyo Story,

and this kind of formal setup and wide shots and letting people just enter and exit rooms to really sort of begin from this place of, I felt like it added to an element of mystery of thinking, where are we? What is this story about? But also this sort of, I felt like it added to an element of mystery of thinking, where are we? What is this story about? But also this sort of, you know, subtle way of suggesting this is the real world. You know, this is not a world, there's no director here, there's no storytelling, I'm just giving you a snapshot of reality. And, you know, slowly taking that objective sort of perspective

and sort of slowly turning it into something more subjective and something more emotional. A lot of times I ask a question like that and I get an answer in which I have no idea what the filmmaker's talking about. I'm like, I didn't see that in your movie at all. But hearing you explain that,

it does feel like you very deftly applied those very specific kinds of like tones and approaches that those directors take awesome that's great no i mean yeah i uh trying to think you know i at the also i mean these are kind of for the conversation i i just i i kept thinking look my dinner with andre works you know i mean at least i like that movie i think it's's great. And it's like four setups. You know what I mean? I just, that whole notion of like, I never want to get in the way. Every day we had a basic setup for, we called it the system, right?

And it was just kind of, we knew how to shoot our day. The dolly had to be here at this time of day for the windows and the light. And then we'll do our closeups. So we had this system in place. And each day we would add some new technique to it whether it was you know panning or sort of more movement or a tighter shot and and and then we'd have just enough time for like one special almost virtually all of those special none of those special shots were used. You know, we did, we would always try something. Then we'd get into the edit and I would say, no, it feels like the director, like at that, that field, that feels like I'm trying to do something.

So we'd get rid of it. So there was, and, and this, this applied for the first, I think it's about the first 50 to 60 minutes of the conversation. When Jason Isaacs gets up, that's when we transition into handheld. And it's actually, it was really, we talked about the opening shot of Moonlight. It's on the car, the hood of the car, and Marhasha Ali gets out of the car. I think this is kind of how it happens. And then the camera lifts up and then becomes this like long extended, I think it's Steadicam. But I love that because it looks as if it's a stable shot a stationary shot so that that that transition to handheld it's jason isaacs and we're stable on

the table and as he gets up we kind of jerk up into handheld and from that point on the movie is handheld until we switch to a different ratio aspect ratio but anyway uh yeah sorry that was a little tangent what were we talking about what i like to talk about i mean i'm honestly fascinated by filmmakers looking at another film and saying what can i take from that while making my own so i mean so now what are you gonna do you're gonna make your alien invasion movie like how do you go from a film like this i don't know you know it's it's tough and i maybe i should keep this stuff to myself, but you know, obviously I'm, I've been meeting people, you know, all of a sudden now, you know, I'm,

I'm a director and, and in reality, I've only been a director since like, you know, Sundance. Right. So, so now people are kind of paying attention. And so I've, I've pitched for things and, you know, I, I get, I get nervous because i feel like i'm i'm very concerned about how the real communities and real survivors and real families will receive the movie um you know maybe they don't want to forgive maybe they don't think this you know reconciliation i mean there's there's so much there's a universal element to this movie that's about repairing broken relationships, whether it's marriages, you know, dealing with grief, dealing with people that, you know, you want to hate.

And there's a universality to that that has nothing to do with school shootings. announce because I have some, you know, platform as, you know, having directed my movie at Sundance or, you know, I got this movie that's being distributed. I'm going to go make my big budget. It just, that doesn't feel appropriate. That doesn't feel like the right thing to do. And so I kind of feel like I just need to see what this movie is and what the experience is and what this whole journey just I need to get through it before I can even think about what's next. And I know, you know, in this business, you're supposed to just have it ready. You know, it's just like, what are you going to do next? And I've been asked that now for almost a year or whatever, or more. So

it's, it's, it's tricky, but I really, I've, I can say with real conviction that at this point, I can't, I can't answer that question until I've seen this journey through kind of thing that I think it's important for the, to, to, to, to, you know, after all the work I put into this, like, I want to do all that, you know, justice and feel like I need to be faithful to this project until it's through, you know, before I can say, yeah, this, I am writing a script. I feel pretty strongly about this, something that I will do. I just don't know what's next or when that will happen. You know, it's so, it's so emotional. I mean, honestly, now that we're

getting close to the release date, there's just been a knot in my stomach for a long time. How will you know if this has been successful in a little more standard way? We're in this really complicated time in movie history and in release history i know you're getting a theatrical release but like is there like a dollar number is it increase you know more good reviews after a great sundance like what means success for you on this yeah i mean gosh look i'll be you know some of these things that feel more material, right. Yeah. I can't help, but think about them and want those things. I know the actors are in conversations for awards. I want that. I think they deserve it. I think it's for the best.

I don't think it's not just this year. I think there's four, they're just four unforgettable performances, period. I think that I think they should be looked at, you know, forever, especially for actors. I just think they're just incredible performances. And, you know, I saw we have like 1.8 million views of a trailer on YouTube. And I'm like, wow, that's amazing, you know, and so, you know, I pay attention to these numbers, for sure. Obviously, I want, you know, hopefully our Rotten Tomatoes score doesn't plummet. All of these things matter to me. I do think, I haven't seen the movie with people.

That's not true. We had a rough cut in February 2020. We had a rough cut screening right before the pandemic. And it was really emotional. And that was really validating because while the movie wasn't done, I knew it worked. You know, I want to see I want to see that I want to see, I want to appreciate it with an audience. I don't know when that's going to happen. I want to, I think, and I mean this, I mean this, that if I can have, if I can have someone, and I've already sort of felt this to a degree, but if I can have, if I can have someone, and I've already sort of felt this to a degree,

but if I can have, you know, people say, oh, this was, this meant a lot to me, that would, that would be it. You know, that I, I remember I spoke with someone, a friend who had lost their brother and they said to me um we just want to we just want to um sorry man like we we just want to tell stories about him we just want to we just want people to hear hear stories about him and uh it's where the uh it's where the story about the son really came from. There was always an element of that, but it became this really important moment of the film when Martha Plimpton's character shares a story. And I would love,

it doesn't matter the audience size or the number of people, but to feel like this tapped into how people live with loss and live with grief. And if it offered some sort of healing or if it let them feel like I was paying attention and got that, that would make me very happy. That would feel like a major success. If this person who I talked to saw the movie and said, you know, that felt right, that would mean a lot. I feel like the film really does that. I think it's a really impressive piece of work and really sensitive and thoughtful movie. Fran. Thanks, man. Thank you.

We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen. You seem like a real cinephile based on some of your homework before mass. So what have you seen that you've loved recently? Oh, gosh. Oh, man, that's good. Speaking of Ken Loach, I saw this crazy movie, Blackjack. It's this period piece done in sort of his style. I've never seen a film of that period directed that way. I don't know if I'm telling you to go run out and see it. Tell me more about it. Who made it?

Where is it from? loach ken um ken loach right so he's um but is it is it is an older film of his it's an older film i got oh wow 70s 80s 70s and it's about um it's about a kid in 19th century uh england and he's just kind of roaming the countryside sort of nomadically. It's like a wayward kid who meets up with this, this Frenchman who's been, who's been executed, but somehow survived the execution by hanging, by sticking a spoon in his throat to keep his, the passage open.

And they go on this kind of Dickensian journey together and it's sort of all over the place, but it was cool. And like, look, I said, I'm not saying go rush out and see it, but it was something like that that would inform how you might want to tell a story, you know, really inform like, oh, that's cool. Like, maybe I don't love every aspect of this movie, but what an original, I mean, it felt like a, it felt like you were there. The realism that Ken Loach can capture and produce on film is really remarkable

and stunning. So I just think I, I say, watch those, that guy's movies in general. And then I saw the Korean film, The Wailing, which was wild. Yeah, totally out there and totally i i love how they bend genre and mix it all up but there's always this um incredibly truthful human emotion that it's that there's such intense passion from all the characters no matter how crazy the movies are that is never sort of compromised or not taken totally seriously mass is going going to play at the Busan Film Festival. And unfortunately, I can't go with, you know, just the restrictions in the world today and I'm working. But I'm so proud of that because, you know,

this movie is deeply emotional. I feel like it's real human emotions and real passions, real love. And so I hope that, I hope they, and I hope in Korea they respond to it because I feel like there's an equal intensity of emotion in a lot of Korean cinema. So that was, yeah, that one was good. Those are great recommendations.

Frank, congrats on this. Thanks so much for being on the show. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much thank you to our producer bobby wagner for his work on this episode later this week on the big picture i lied chris ryan is actually coming back he has to come back you can't kill me it's the month of halloween we have to do our horror movie episode like we do every year. It's a Halloween Megapod.

We're going to talk about some 2021 horror movies we like, but more importantly, we're going to rank the horror movie franchises. So if you have strong takes, that's at ChrisRyan77 on Twitter. Please send him all of those takes. All your Freddy versus Jason takes. I'm here for it. DMs are open. You heard it here first.

The DMs are open for Chris Ryan, but not for Amanda or I. We'll see you on the pod next.