The Big Picture - The 2022 Oscars: The Smack Heard ’Round the World

Episode Date: March 28, 2022

The 94th Academy Awards is in the books, and Sean and Joanna Robinson are here to break down all the winners, the ceremony, the hosts, and of course that shocking Will Smith- Chris Rock confrontation. Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Benifer is back. Brad and Jen are friends again. And Paris Hilton is somehow still making headlines. 20 years later, we're living in the world that the 2000s tabloids created. On this series, I'm going to tell you the story of a decade of American life through the trash we love to consume. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Claire Malone, and this is Just Like Us,

the tabloids that changed America. Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the 94th annual Academy Awards. Joanna Robinson is here with me and we are recapping the telecast right now. It just concluded and there is only one place to start and that is, of course, at the smack herd around the world. Something truly shocking happened at the Academy Awards tonight and we have seen mishaps with envelopes. In the 1970s, there was a streaker on stage. Wild things have happened at this show. I can remember ever reading learning watching or hearing about anything quite like this at

approximately 7 30 p.m pacific time chris rock came out to present the oscar for best documentary he made a few jokes at the expense of audience members before turning his attention to jada pinkett smith when he said this jada i loveI. Jane 2, can't wait to see it, all right? That was a nice one. Okay, I'm out here. Uh-oh, Richard. Oh, wow. Wow. Will Smith just smacked the shit out of me. Keep my wife's name out your fucking mouth. Wow, dude. Yes.

It was a G.I. Jane joke. Keep my wife's name out your fucking mouth. I'm going to, okay? Oh, okay. Okay. That was a greatest night in the history of television. Okay. Okay.

So what you just heard was an encounter, an exchange, a violent exchange between Will Smith and Chris Rock. After that joke, Will Smith stepped to the stage and smacked Chris Rock. After that joke, Will Smith stepped to the stage and smacked Chris Rock in the face and then went back to his seat and screamed at him

twice, keep my wife's name out of your fucking mouth. This was authentically shocking, breathtaking, confounding, confusing. As you can tell, there was stunned silence at the Dolby Theater. Joanna, what did you think when all this was happening? Well, so we got the edited version at home, right? And so at first, I think the first reaction was us trying to figure out if it was a bit or if it was real, because a lot of the yelling was edited out. And so it came down to, did we think the slap was real? You could read Will Smith's lips. They muted the audio, but you could read it. And mostly it was going off of Lupita Nyong'o's reaction behind him because she looked like it wasn't a bit. And so then I started messaging people I knew who were in the theater and all of them were at the bar and didn't even know that it had happened.

And then that unedited audio that we just heard started going around and it became really clear that that was a real thing that happened. And then we were sort of just braced for the next, what was it? 20, 30 minutes between that slap and when we knew Will Smith would take the stage to give a speech. So that was sort of my reaction. What was yours? I was bewildered. I think for a hot second, I thought it might've been a prank or a bit an attempt to breathe some life into what had been a morbid and quite confusing two and a half hours of award ceremony. And very quickly, it became clear just from following along on Twitter that there were some reporters in the room who explained that this was in fact quite real, or if it was a staged prank, that it was extremely elaborate and intensely executed. So Matt Bellany, who's hosting a podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network called The Town, recently launched. He's also a founder of Puck Media, was there. And we're going to call Matt

so that Matt can tell us exactly what it was like in the room before we talk about our reactions to this crazy moment. Okay, Matt. So you were there when all of this began to transpire. When you saw Will Smith step onto the stage, what was your reaction and what was the reaction of the room at the Dolby? Wait, you're having me on to talk about this? I thought you wanted my thoughts on Liza Minnelli giving best picture. That was a moment. No, no.

Okay. So honestly, it was normal. You know, Chris Rock did his joke. I didn't think twice about it. You see Will Smith coming up on stage. You assume it's a bit, right? You assume that they're friends. They worked something out.

And, you know, he's going to fake being upset about the G.I. Jane 2 joke. And then all of a sudden you see him take a swing at him. And I was like, oh, this is kind of a hefty bit here. And the way Chris Rock was reacting, it did not look like a bit. It looked like he was genuinely surprised by what happened and then will smith starts walking away and chris rock is like trying to compose himself and he's like i'm going to paraphrase here but he's like i just got punched on stage by will smith like it's almost like he's saying it to himself he couldn't believe it and so was there a hushed silence in the crowd were people laughing what was the energy like? No, it went from like normal, you know, comedy bit.

And then it went to absolute stunned silence. Not like people whispering what's going on. It was stunned silence. Like I looked right, I looked left. People were just like, their mouths were open. And this, you know, keep in mind, I was there during the Moonlight La La Land fiasco. And people were surprised then. This was another level because we didn't know what to think.

We didn't know if it was fake, if it was real. And then Will Smith started screaming from his seat. And that's when I knew, OK, this is not fake. So obviously, Chris Rock stumbled a bit in the aftermath of that. And it seemed pretty clear by the time he presented the Best Documentary Award that this was not staged whatsoever. But then there's this 20 to 30 minute period between Will getting his Best Actor Oscar. And we were seeing on Twitter that there apparently were publicists huddling around Will, that Will was huddled up with, I think, Denzel Washington at one point, maybe Tyler Perry. What was happening inside the room at that point, as far as you could tell? I mean, after the whole thing transpired

and the Best Documentary Award was given out, which by the way, Chris Rock looked absolutely frazzled. Like he couldn't even get the words out. At one point he said, we're going to give away a documentary, not the awards. And after that, people were just like, did that just happen? Like what just happened there?

And there was still a little bit of like, I can't believe that's real. But I think once we all heard Will yelling from his seat, it was clear that he was actually really pissed. And then when we saw the handlers and the PR people and Denzel get involved, it was very clear that this was not some kind of a bit. And I texted someone from the, someone close to the show. And I was like, that wasn't in rehearsals, was it? And they're like, no. So that's when I knew. And what was it like in the commercial breaks or all of the downtime between that moment and then when Will has to get up and we at home are sitting there going, what is he going to say in his speech possibly to follow this? What was it like in the room for all of you sitting in there? It was honestly, it was like, why are we even watching this?

Why do we care about this anymore? Like, what is what is he going to say? I mean, I turned to the guy sitting next to me and was like, I can't believe they're just going about this as normal. Like, Will was just sitting there. He wasn't like asked to step to the side or leave or anything like that. And, you know, I'm not saying he should have been arrested or anything.

I don't know the details there. But I do think that they probably should have had someone come out and, like, maybe take him off to the side and, like, say, hey, this is a big deal. Like, we can't have you just sitting there. And then you got to think that they were just probably waiting

for the Best Actor trophy, which everybody knew he was going to win. Well, let's talk about the best actor trophy, because on the one hand, there was something very moving about the vulnerability that Will Smith showed, but also extremely confusing about the way that he was presenting it. And a little bit uncomfortable, honestly, about the way that the incident was positioned within the speech. What was the energy like after he won? Because in the run-up to this show, obviously, I would say the anticipation for his eventual win was probably the number one thing on most people's checklists. So when he won Best Actor, what was it like?

Yeah, I mean, you got to understand that these speeches are very manicured. When you got to this point, you know you're going to win. He had a speech ready, and it probably involved a lot about Richard Williams and what he did for his daughters and family. And, you know, his Will Smith's publicist was in his ear during the commercial breaks. And I got to imagine that either together or with her or of equating it without directly saying it to what he did in nurturing and being hard charging with his

daughters to literally jumping on stage and slapping a dude because you didn't like the joke about his wife. And I don't know. I just, you know, then he apologized, but he didn't apologize to Chris Rock. He apologized to his fellow nominees and to the Academy for sort of becoming the story and the sideshow there. I just, I don't know. I mean, I guess you're doing it on the fly, but it came across very bizarre. And what was the reaction in the room? Because, you know, like the way the camera

is showing us the audience, we're seeing mostly people standing up and cheering. It was cutting to Denzel a lot, all of that. But I also saw some people like Nicole Kidman or Cody Smith-McPhee, a couple people who were like right in front who looked still just really like shook and uncomfortable. Yeah, I don't know what they were showing on TV, but in the room, people were still kind of muted when he won. There was there was

applause. But I would say it was not the kind of applause you would hear from a an actor of Will Smith's statue, a stature who has won his first Oscar after a 30-year career that he's had. You would think this would have been a coronation ovation, and it was nice. There were people clapping, but there were a lot of people not clapping. Matt, we're going to have a lot of time

to unpack the ramifications, the utter weirdness of that moment. Obviously, I'm sure you'll be breaking it down on The Town this week. Thanks for joining us so briefly after the show, and we'll see you soon. Okay, well, Joanna, I am having a hard time

sorting through some of my feelings about this. I don't feel good about watching one person get assaulted on stage. That doesn't sit right. It was a very weird reaction. Will Smith made reference in his speech to the fact that when you are a person who is having a career and a life like he has, you learn to endure what he described as disrespect.

I think in the case of Chris Rock, he's, of course, a comedian and an artist in his own right. And Chris Rock is, you know, someone who does not pull punches, so to speak. And there was reference made to the Oscars five or six years ago when Rock hosted and Jada Smith Pinkett boycotted that show. And she boycotted it during the Oscars. So white boycott. And he made a joke at her expense at that point, too. And there was insinuation that Smith did not forget that comment that Rock had made.

And then that might have been at the root of this still very baffling decision. I'll just say one thing. Will Smith is insanely famous. He is literally among the 10 most famous people in all of Hollywood, meaning he is one of the few hundred most famous people in the world. And he has been in situations in which he has been insulted. His family has been insulted quite a bit. So there's something baffling about what happened here.

What is your reaction as you're trying to sort through it now? Yeah, to add some extra maybe ringer dish context to all of this, I think we talked about how Will Smith has run a textbook campaign up to, I would say, that moment. And part of it was, you know, a memoir he put out this year. Part of it was, you know, some very personal stuff about his marriage with Jada that's been out there that was referenced in the opening monologue. And they didn't seem to respond well to those jokes. And I think, and in case people don't know, the reason Jada Smith's head is shaven is because she's got alopecia, which she's been very open about. So there's like a medical reason why her head is shaved. I'm not casting a judgment on

whether or not the joke was appropriate or not, but that's just some of the context. And so I think that, I've never seen anything like it. And I'm hesitant to have like a scorching hot take. You know, we are like minutes out from the close of the ceremony right now as we're recording. But something that someone messaged me between before we started recording was that they were troubled by some of the language of Willilsmith's speech, however intentionally planned and calculated it was between commercial breaks, because it couched this act of violence in the language of love, which is sort of a classic abuser's kind of language that they use to justify love. And especially also, this is an Oscars where we've been, you know, an Oscar season where we've been really talking a lot about toxic masculinity as it relates to power of the dog. So it's just sort of like it's there's a lot in the stew here. I've to be genuinely crying, which, you know, I think he probably was.

For a lot of people, that was mollifying. And then for others, they're like, I can't believe we watched someone assault someone on television and then gave him a big shiny prize for it. You know, so I feel in limbo. I don't know. How are you feeling? Yeah, I'm bewildered. I don't know. I mean, honestly? Yeah, I'm bewildered. I don't know.

I mean, honestly, there's something really funny about it. It's obviously horrifying that he struck someone on stage, but also in the real world, sometimes that does happen. You might be in a bar and someone might say something to a person you're with and you might get into a fight. And that's not justifying the action. It's more just setting the terms. Obviously, when you're this famous and when you're on literally the biggest pop culture event,

the biggest night in Hollywood, it's ridiculous. And I don't condone the action by any stretch of the imagination, but it is so absurd as to seem fake. It's so crazy that our first instincts, both of our first instincts, were that this is a prank. And in fact, it involved a comedian. So even more so, we would think it was a prank. On the one hand, I'm not even worth, it's not even worth trying to figure out

what Will Smith was thinking. I think when you are that famous and you are in like the pressure cooker of life and also you are making an attempt to be a kind of radically open famous person. And between red table talks and the memoir that you cited, the Smith family has been engaged in the last few years. And this kind of like radical openness about their, their, their bonds and the, and the strain on their bonds at times. This is something that like,

if you listen to higher learning, you've, you've heard Van and Rachel talk about this before on the show. There's something, they're on a mission of some kind to unpack their feelings. And sometimes when you do that all the time, you're more raw and exposed. And this just felt like an extremely raw

and exposed reaction at perhaps the time when the lights were absolutely brightest. So I'm just kind of left not knowing what to think. And I think also the converse is true when you have, I mean, award seasons are exhausting. And when you are Will Smith and you have hit every note perfectly for a year, I don't know, however long you want to call this award season,

it felt like a year. You know, I can understand. Denzel gave Will Smith some very generous cover in all of this by sort of consulting him and giving Will Smith the ability to cite him in his speech. But I think also there is a kernel of truth in this sort of like, I'm not a religious person, but this idea of like, you know, you're at the very tippy top of something that you have climbed so hard and so long to get to the top of it. This is the moment actually probably where you are likeliest to dissolve. Absolutely. And for it to happen minutes before this thing that he has wanted for a very long time is yeah astonishing yeah so i'm sure i mean we'll be breaking down on probably every podcast on on this network in the rest of time yeah but this is also this is just

going to be the will it's not the kota oscars like the question was is this going to be the kota oscars is going to be the power of the dog oscars this is going to be the will smith oscars the way that you know you don't remember much that happened in the Moonlight Oscars except La La Land and Moonlight, you know, like that's, that's it. And like, what's wild is we've been talking for weeks about Will Packer and ABC and Disney and all of their desire to give us a memorable show that everyone will be talking about, you know, and it's just like, I mean, I can confidently say they didn't mean it like this, but they, you know, they got their wish. You could not have scripted it. You could not have. And the truth is, is that through all of the machinations that try to improve the show, shorten the show, make the show seem younger, more viable. The only thing that was really going to

boost the show was a moment and a moment early enough in the show to meaningfully have people tune in. If you weren't watching the Oscars, you probably got a text message from someone that said, you should turn on the Oscars. Something crazy just happened. Because something really crazy did just happen. And it wasn't just a single moment. It was one in which we had an almost instantaneous reaction from one of the key figures. So there's really just, it's so hard to wrap your head around this. The thing that Denzel said that, or that Will said that Denzel said to him was, at your highest moment is the person that people look to for advice and for grace and and and he obviously gave will a sense of grace in that moment but um i don't know i feel fucked up about this honestly i i i don't think it was great that he smacked a person um i i i don't think it was uh the greatest speech i've

ever heard at a time and i've obviously been rooting for Will Smith. And I don't want to sound like a scold, but I'm also kind of fearful of a really long take cycle here around this. And we are, of course, as guilty as anybody around these things, but there will be takes from every direction, from protecting the sanctity and decency of your family's reputation to acts of violence in public, to the, I don't know, the notions of modern comedy. Like, who knows? Like, this really runs the gamut. It's kind of a hell pit, honestly, of all of the things that we fear in our culture.

And it all came together at the same time. And I'm sure that's one thing that the producers of this show are bummed out about is exactly what you said, which is like, this is the legacy of the show in so many ways. Yeah. One more thing we should say about the ceremony itself is that I do want to give props to Sean Combs, I guess, who had the terrible job of following. you know like quest love gets up your your buddy wins an oscar and then you know sean has to come out and give this godfather tribute and has to sort of like try to smooth it out and i was i was

you know i was impressed by it i thought it was a good job yeah he said will and chris we need to work this out at the gold party you know like that's that's um that's unlikely brokering of peace but um i i think that also that covered up the frankly like appalling tribute to the godfather with that was like bad boy themed with the music i i just i that's like one example of a million examples of instances of this show just being extremely strange and out of touch with i think what people want from a movie show yeah should we talk about the rest of that movie show? We can probably circle back to Will Smith at some point.

I don't, I don't know. I'm, I'm a little bit out of my depth here in this conversation. I know. I like, I'm really interested to hear what higher learning I say about it. I'm interested to hear what like,

you know, Matt learns, Matt will probably learn more as he's out about at parties tonight. You know, there'll be much more to say tomorrow morning, but that's our fresh hot take, I guess, off the hot take machine. It'll be interesting to see if there has to be some sort of apology tour on either side for this, or if everybody just kind of

closes down shop, because we did not see Chris Rock again on this show, unsurprisingly. It'll be interesting to see the next time we hear from him. Also, speaking of, I mean, a person who usually puts his life into his art, can you imagine Chris Rock's next comedy hour? I mean, you could do an hour just on this moment. Will he be involved in a more high stakes moment, a more highly visible moment in his life? One tiny thing that he said in that exchange, like if you rewatch it, which I'm sure people will do, is there's a moment, you know, where he's like, I will, like, I will keep your wife's name out of my mouth. And then he says,, I will, like, I will keep your wife's name out of my mouth.

And then he says, he almost says something like, I could, like, I could say something right now. And then he just decides not to. But I don't know if he'll say that later, you know, when he's not on the stage at the Dolby. I mean, what if he wanted to press charges? What if he wanted to sue him? He could, you know? There are a lot of options here. It's kind of, it's very strange. of... It's going to follow Will Smith forever.

It's going to be an Oscar moment forever. It's going to be, you know, in Chris's... And every single person tonight, every journalist

is going to ask every single celebrity about that moment and almost nothing else. Questlove was asked about it immediately in the press room and he had to be like,

I want to talk about this movie I made and not, you know, and not that. So, yeah. What a drag for him. That's too bad. I hope that doesn't overshadow the one for Summer of Soul. If you haven't seen that movie, you should watch it.

Let's talk about the rest of the telecast. You mentioned that this otherwise probably would have been known as the CODA Oscars. CODA, of course, did win Best Picture. For whatever reason, I was really on my game this year with my predictions. But I don't know. Was I holding out hope that Coda wasn't going to win? Was there something subterranean

in my anxiety about a movie like this winning? I think there might have been because otherwise I was 21 out of 23 in my predictions and I feel great about that. Really good. But I got Best Picture wrong.

I have a message, a direct quote from Amanda Dobbins who texted me during the Oscars. She said, you better give Sean Grief for getting best pick wrong again. And then again, is in all caps. And I promised her,

I'd read the text word for word. No, I mean, you did such a good job on your predictions. And like, I know that with my predictions, I got 18 out of 23. I did get still great.

That's really great. But I, like, I know I said when we did our predictions, I know I said I was, like, voting with my heart a couple times. But when it came down to it, I was like, oh, but I still want to beat Sean. And so I was like, why did I vote with my heart a couple times? I think you still would have edged me out by one or more. But, like, those screenplay ones that I voted with my heart, I was like, why did I do that?

Anyway, 18 and 23, a reasonable showing. Did not win my personal Oscar pool, but I did get Best Picture right. And I got it right several weeks ago. So I am going to marinate in that smugness for a hot second. You deserve to. You certainly do.

How are you feeling about it now, now that it's won? Because it seemed inevitable for the last 10 days or so, right? Yeah, I mean, I still wasn't sure there was still a possibility that part of the dog could, could win. I think the moment that it felt sure to me,

here's the moment is when Troy won. And I saw all those people in the theater get up and do the like ASL applause and look really happy that they knew how to clap for him and stuff like that. Do you know what I mean? I was like, they took that energy all the way to Best Picture, right? Yes. And you predicted that especially. Yes, that there was something about sort of like rewarding the meaning and message of the movie,

perhaps even more so than the movie, because that's something that we know the Academy Awards likes to do. I think you're right about that. I think also, obviously, it is a movie that makes people feel good. And we have been in a very difficult place in our society for going on 25 months here, and we're just starting to come out of it. But people really needed something to make them feel good. And this movie does that for the most part, whether it is the highest achievement in cinema. Let me tell you straight from my mouth. It is not. It is not the highest achievement in cinema. Let me tell you straight from my mouth. It is not, it is not the highest achievement in cinema this year. So listen,

you've been so polite to me when I've been like on this Coda train for a couple of weeks, you've been very kind to me, but I listened to you on green room before the award started. And I'm like, I'm hearing all your reasons why you might feel salty about it. I mean, you've made some great points.

I, I would push back on your point when you bring up the rewatchables and you're like, is this a movie that we're going to put in the rewatchables? But the case that I would make to you is that you guys just did a month of movies that are like this. I think Ordinary People or Kramer vs. Kramer, those are family-driven dramas, you know what I mean? That have aged, however you feel about them, like are in the pantheon of, of important,

um, you know, films. So I, I don't know. I, I, I don't think it's going to age as poorly as like a driving Miss Daisy or a

green book, because those have like that added twist of like, what are we doing with our politics here? You know, um, I, I think it might aid aid you know what i think about age like i think about age like shakespeare in love which a movie that i love and when shakespeare in love beat saving private ryan people were really mad and partially that's due to the wine scene machinations and we can be mad all day long about that but i think it was fashionable for a while to shit on Shakespeare in Love

and call it a bad film because people wanted Saving Private Ryan to win. I think recently Shakespeare in Love has been getting the love it deserves. It's a great film. And I'm not mad that it has a Best Picture Oscar.

So I think there might be a time when there's like a backlash to the Koda win and then maybe a backlash to the backlash when the hot take cycle burns itself out. I don't know. What do you think? Do you think forever people are going to be extremely mad about this? There's nothing disreputable about the movie.

So it's not a driving Miss Daisy and it's certainly not a driving Miss Daisy in the context of like a do the right thing being on the board and not even being nominated and then this movie winning or you know something like green book winning in 2018 which is still mind melt mind melting to me um it's not like that it is more like shakespeare in love it's more like the artist to me that's the movie that was rattling around in my head this morning which was that it is a film that made a lot of people happy it's a movie that ran a flawless campaign it's a movie that had one really strong male performance that everyone agreed was the best and it's one that

people don't really like people don't care about that movie anymore the artist has no reputation they don't think about it and I think that for everyone who watched Coda for the first time

or the second time or the third time and was touched by it I'm not going to take that away from you by trying to make you feel bad about how I think it's not as great

a piece of cinema as Drive My Car or Licorice Pizza or whatever. It's just a good movie. And that's all that it is. And the Oscars, to me, is meant to recognize more than that. And so the idea that this is a movie that is nominated for three Oscars,

won three Oscars, essentially because of the way that the campaign rolled out across the month of March in a kind of slow build, I find a little bit frustrating. Honestly, I also find the Apple underdog narrative a little bit bothersome. The fact that they're like, you know, this, this incurring incursion into Hollywood and, you know, they obviously had a tremendous amount of money to spend on their campaigns. So then it pits these two giant tech companies against each

other in the best picture race. And that kind of like it de-arts the conversation about the arts ceremony. And I find that disappointing. I'm not so shallow and oblivious to think that any of this stuff is purely voted upon, but this was the story of two big machines smashing their heads against each other. And there just so happened to be some really good artists at the center of it. So that's making me a little bit queasy too. I mean, the thing that I will say about Coda, and no way would it have, you know, one best picture under its own steam, but it was at least made as a true like indie film, right?

Yes. And then Apple acquired it. So there is a tiny kernel of truth to that narrative, even if it has a giant tech machine behind it. And I think, you know, going forward, we are just going to see these battle of the streamers. But I do want to say, just for my own cinemaphile reputation with your listeners who may not be very familiar with me, I do not think Coda was like the best picture that I saw last year. And I do not think it was the best picture that was nominated for best picture.

I did, it did make me feel more than Power of the Dog did. And for that reason, I was pushing behind it. I just, I think, I think I'm just rejecting that, the binary of that two horse race when I look at these nominees. And when I make a comment, like when we look back on this 10 years from now,

it's more like, it's not like Power of the Dog should have won. And I'm disappointed by that. I don't, I didn't really have like an overwhelming passion for the Power of the Dog. It's more like when I look at Dune or I look at Drive My Car, or I look at Licorice Pizza and I look at all these movies and I'm like, these movies are pretty great. Why, why, why were they never even in the conversation? Like not even close. I will say if it had been like Coda versus Dune or Coda versus West Side Story, this would be like a very different conversation. I just didn't happen to emotionally, you know, I'm not as out on Power of the Dog as Bill is who calls it Power of the Nap. Like I'm not as out as

he is, but I am very much in a chilly, chillier, I admire it more than I love it space. And so it's hard for me to get excited about something like that winning best picture i am excited that jane campion won best director um after a bafflingly long kevin costner yellowstone scene but like i was texting mallory rubin and i was like is he just doing his character from yellowstone because i haven't watched it as we know she and chris are like yellowstone uh academics and she was like yes and she's just like then she started making a bunch of references i didn't understand but basically kevin costner uh you know even even surprised jane campion with his his link there and also we were just like waiting for the will smith speech so we were like kevin costner what are you doing what is happening but i wanted to follow up and ask you so kevin

costner is out there in theory because we are underlining Power of the Dog as a true western like sort of in defiance of Sam Elliott but also because they brought out a lot of presenters as sort of anniversary reunion things

and he's out there you know they play the bodyguard music for him you get a Pulp Fiction reunion Pulp Fiction is like one of your top favorite films of all time is that correct?

that's right you get the Godfather reunion which you and bill explicitly asked for yes we did on on the podcast last week um but how are they handled as far as you're concerned you already talked about the godfather reunion a little bit um not not great and here's i i i appreciated the efforts to incorporate the history of movies into the show, or at least the idea of the efforts. The efforts themselves I found lacking because I always find them lacking on a show like this because they're not about making the movies or what makes the movies great.

They're surface level clip packages. They are callbacks to jokes from the movies. God knows John Travolta, Sam Jackson, and Uma Thurman is a trio I've spent a lot of time with. I've watched Pulp Fiction many times in my life. It is an incandescent transformational movie in my life. It is a movie that changed how I see culture for better and for worse, honestly. Whatever they were doing on stage, which was sweet, was kind of hokey bullshit you know it was like it actually was the reduced down version of what you would see from people getting older in the 1990s

and i'd be like you know look at how they're degrading the greatness of 1970s culture like it has come for me you know it has come for the like nostalgia baiting and the the the kind of like mugging into the camera and like patting yourself on the back for the thing that you did i was reflecting on this this weekend with with with my wife we're um we're in the house on saturday and you know the baby is being a little fussy and so we're bouncing around playing a lot of music in the house and i've got a 90s playlist going, a Spotify curated playlist. And No Doubt's Don't Speak comes on. Love No Doubt. Always loved No Doubt in the 90s. Eileen and I love Don't Speak. This song is playing and I'm thinking to myself,

so this song came out more than 25 years ago. And that means when I was sitting in my dad's truck in 1995 and he was listening to the Allman Brothers, those songs that he was listening to were not as old as Don't Speak is to Me Now. And Pulp Fiction is the exact same thing, seeing it on the show in that fashion. It wasn't like an exploration of why Pulp Fiction is a great movie and how Quentin Tarantino made it so. It was just three famous people talking about it for two minutes before bringing on somebody to give a speech that made us all uncomfortable. So the same goes for The Godfather and using the music of Bad Boy to underscore that. The same goes for

the quasi-bewildering reunions for Juno and White Men Can't Jump, two movies that I don't think anyone was really asking for reunions for. I appreciated that they did at least echo what Bill and I were begging for. I just didn't think the way that they did it was great. That being said, I would take those strained efforts over DJ Khaled or Wanda Sykes getting a tour through the Academy Museum 100 times out of 100. Those things that we were quite certain were not going to work. Sean White, Tony Hawk, and Kelly Slater bumbling through a presentation. Terrible.

Like, all those things that we knew weren't going to work didn't work. I will say the athletes were, like, actually on the list of, like, offensive bits or whatever. That was actually low on my list. I thought they weren't, like, that tremendously offensive. What is frustrating, though, is that they did, you know, they did a Bond tribute,

which I think we knew they were going to do, but it's confusing because they did a bond tribute in like 2013. I'm like, how often are you legally allowed to do a bond tribute at the Oscars? I got, I got the impression that that was a sort of like, so we've sold MGM to Amazon and now we will start to water down the bond product. So at 60 years, let's celebrate the cinematic achievements of bond before we get 10 spinoff TV shows on Amazon Prime. At the very least, it was an Amazon IP and not the endless parade of Disney IP that we got through via a barrage of Hulu commercials, ABC commercials,

Disney commercials, Disney talent. A lot of Moon Knight in there, Joanna. Yeah. A lot of Oscar, Oscar. Yeah. So Yeah, you know, a lot of Oscar, Oscar. Yeah. So yeah, at least it was a respite from that. But yeah, the bits, I can't think of one bit that really works for me at all. The trouble with Oscar history too is it's history. And so it's old.

And so I thought that there was something really nice about Lady Gaga and Liza Minnelli coming out to give away that final award. But Liza Minnelli was not well. And you could tell she was not well. And she didn't seem prepared to present. And I thought Lady Gaga was very gracious in setting her up. And that was an attempt at a nice moment that didn't really land. I think most people watching it probably felt a little bit uncomfortable watching that moment happen. And Liza Minnelli is a legend. And if you haven't seen Cabaret, you should go rent it tonight. Turn this podcast off and go watch Cabaret. And she is also a part of an

incredible lineage. And her mother is one of the greatest performers in the history of Hollywood. But that was kind of strange to watch her on stage there at the end of the show. And the Oscars has a habit of doing this, of bringing on older figures from history and attempt to pay tribute, but then not necessarily putting them in a position to succeed. I hold the producers accountable for that specifically. But at least this time it was like Lady Gaga sort of escorting Liza Nell as opposed to like Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty

being a little confused between the two of them for an awkward period of time. That was a little better. Yeah, no, I agree with you. I, you know, on the other side, you side, Jane Fonda came out and was sharp as hell and gave us a tremendous parasite moment. You know what I mean? I like them putting legends out there at the end. I just think you're right that maybe that legend should be a little bit more collected, perhaps, than Liza Minnelli, a tremendous performer and an icon, was tonight. Yeah. You want to talk about the hosts? Let's talk about the hosts.

And the general pace of the show before we talk about some more awards? Let's talk about the terrible start to the show, okay? Because something that I said to you when we gave our predictions and our hopes for this show is I was hoping that it would start with sort of a jolt of energy. I keep setting this Justin Timberlake performance because I really do think, however you feel about Justin Timberlake or even that song, that that was like a sort of energetic opening. Or because I'm like, you know, a little older and musty dusty myself, like I love a Billy Crystal like monologue with songs. Like

that kind of stuff appealed to me. with Beyonce is smart but starting with Beyonce remote is like a really weird moment for the Williams sisters to come on stage with the audio being kind of weird and then cutting to this remote performance so what was that like in the room so a bizarre opening to me what did you think it's weird there is such a fine line between that Billy Crystal pre-tape that you're talking about which by the time you and i got around to it was tradition you know it was the sort of thing that we probably didn't even have the wherewithal to question whether or not it was tacky or it didn't have the same verve that a johnny carson cold open might have had in 1980 i don't really know bob newhart used to host when david niven used to host. It was really a time. Yeah, I'm not really sure about that. I do know that I thought the Beyonce performance was very good,

but I really did not like it as an opening. And it just made the show, this award show that I love, feel like the Grammys. And it didn't make it feel like the Oscars. And I saw a lot of people referencing the Video Music Awards. And the fact that there was so much staging, so much pre-tape, so much a conscientiousness about the entertainment factor of every moment.

It felt like there was this overweening determination to grab hold of a 16-year-old every 14 minutes and say like, hey, check this out. This show isn't that boring. And it was condescending. I knew it was going to be this way. I'm not surprised that it was this out. This show isn't that boring. And it was condescending. I knew it was going to be this way. I'm not surprised that it was this way. You could tell based on the way that they booked the presenters and the fact that they, you know, had five musical performances and that there were going to be some bits

that were going to speak to that. The Beyonce performance itself. I don't think that's a great song. I mean, she's obviously an incredible artist. I thought the choreography was particularly cool as well as the costuming on that performance. But it was just a very...

That like Wilson tennis ball green. Yeah. Yeah. But the decision was odd. And I think also, I mean, it dovetails very cleanly with the decision to not open with We Don't Talk About Bruno,

which did not air until 9.45 p.m. on the East Coast. So any kids who would have wanted to see that couldn't see it. And they kept hyping it up at every commercial break and then it was terrible it was really bad i didn't see a single person who was like yes that is exactly what i wanted from a we don't talk about bruno they like they took a song that was super popular they tried to make it hipper by adding like a megan stallion in there and like doing all this extra stuff, changing the lyrics. They removed, like the reason that this song is so popular is because it

went viral on TikTok for a couple different snippets. They removed all of those snippets out. So the viral TikTok audio that people know and love from that song was not represented in the song at all. It was a bizarre choice from start to finish. It started slow. I thought the performance of Dos Origuitos was better than the than the performance that we don't talk about bruno but all of this leads me to my least favorite part of this podcast right now sean because while i was watching those musical performances i was like god damn i'm not until sean he was right yeah like i hate that don't like that for me but um watching the musical performances i was like i would cut reba i would cut i don't know beyonce this like the presentation is amazing this song is boring

um would i dare ever cut beyonce out of everything anything no i would cut bruno um i would probably keep dos origitas but like maybe like a shorter version of it and then i mean even billy and phineas I was like, kind of bored. I hate that you're right about that. If they were going to do that, I'll give you an idea of what they could have done. And obviously this was- Fix the Oscars, Sean. Do it. Well, God damn it, Joanna. You got me again. So what I would have done is rather than have those songs be performed, that Reba performance was perfectly fine. Reba McIntyre is great. No one knows that song and no one cares about it. So obviously I wouldn't have had all the songs be performed.

If Lin-Manuel Miranda's wife had not gotten COVID, I probably would have created essentially like a Lin-Manuel Miranda, eight minute variety hour in which two songs from Encanto were performed. There was a recreation of a tick, tick boom moment. And then maybe you sprinkle a little Hamilton on top to get people excited and be like,

you want to have one musical centerpiece of this show? Give it to the guy who is basically working at the center of music in the movies right now. And then that's it. We don't need any more than that.

And I liked Billie Eilish. She was good. I'm glad No Time to Die won. But it just has so little to do with movies. And the award show is about movies. And so that's why it's, this is actually not meant to be a variety show. The Oscars it's, it's, it's, it's a pageant in which they give out awards. That's the purpose of the show. Someone tweeted at me tonight and I'm so sorry. I don't have the tweet in front of me.

So I don't know who said it, but they were like, when I, as a non-sports fan, when this person tweeted at me, when I watch the Super Bowl, I don't expect them to like dumb down the Super Bowl so that I can understand it. into this show that is meant to appeal to everyone but me like the to draw in the casuals with like bits and you know etc and i don't know i i have to agree with that um most people i talked to in the room out of the room etc did not have a good time with the show with one exception um someone someone was saying one person i talked to, if it weren't for the awards that were shunted into the pre-tape, I would be having a great time with this show. And I was like, okay. Let's talk about that briefly. Obviously, eight awards were shunted into the pre-tape.

The show itself ran over three and a half hours, if I'm not mistaken. Yep, wrong again. And it didn't really seem like they saved a whole lot of time because they still showed every nominee and showed a very brief clip from each nomination. And then they showed what seemed like between one half and one quarter of every speech. And so basically what we lost was that amount of the speech and the walk down the aisle, which let's take it in total for eight winners. Is that like 12 minutes, maybe minutes not very much almost half the like twice the length of that wanda sykes bit there was like a commercial for a museum museum

which you know like most of the people watching around the country will never see or visit or care about and that was so frustrating too because it was like it for the people who do want to see the museum, the bit, just making fun of the museum. Is that how you sell the museum to people who love movies, who would want to go to the Academy museum? I didn't understand it at all. Extremely confusing.

Yeah, no, I just, again, my solution to that long walk question is seat those people closer to the stage. Follow-up question for that. Why was Jen Campion so far away from the stage when she was like one of top shore winners? Why was she seated so far back?

They didn't make that mistake for Will Smith. I also, I mean, you talk about people in the Jack Nicholson position. Like Will Smith was in the pole seat. He was in the like, that's the seat where Tom Hanks has been the last couple of years. I talk about it. It's the Jack Nicholson seat, as you mentioned, but I always think of it as like, who's the mayor of the Oscars this year. And when I was there two years ago, everyone would just come and talk to Tom Hanks. He would like hold court because the seating was the standard theater seating. They did this weird combo table theater seating for this. I can't,

I think I liked it actually. And something that was interesting about it is you, it was harder to tell when people were gone because in other Oscars, if you're, if you're an obsessive watcher, you can be like, well, that's a seat filler sitting next to Nicole Kidman.

Meryl Streep was there before. Where's Meryl Streep now, et cetera. But the way that they could move the camera around those tables in the sort of Golden Globe faction, you can't tell who's there and who's not there. And if someone is not enjoying the thing, you don't have to have the camera anywhere near them, et cetera, et cetera. It can move around. That being said, for Jane Campion to not be in that section when she was a surefire winner is a bizarre choice. Very strange. Of course,

champions win is historic. Just the third woman to win best director, the second in a row after Chloe Zhao last year, I guess, I mean, let's just talk about two more things that were really not good. And then maybe we can talk about some things that we liked about the show. Okay.

You know, there were two efforts to draw in younger people online to the show. The first of these was the cheerworthy moment in which Zack Snyder's Justice League won for The Flash Enters the Speed Force. Which is now the funniest thing that has ever happened in the history of time i laughed until i cried instantaneous meme of course uh we all entered the speed force together tonight and i feel great about that i i genuinely don't know what the fuck the academy was thinking with this one like the fan favorite movie i actually i understand the thinking here i understand the idea of like, obviously Spider-Man No Way Home. And there were a number of other movies.

They couldn't have predicted necessarily that Johnny Depp's Minamata would have participated here. They should have. If they asked me, if they called me and said, Joanna, who are the two most bonkers, immobilized fandoms on Twitter? I would say, number one, the Snyderheads. Number two, the Depp Army. I can go from there. I am familiar with all of these. And it's like the scorpion and the frog. How did they not know? How did no one tell them that this is absolutely what was going to happen? Zack Snyder won more Oscars tonight than Jane Campion. I just want you to know that.

He did not technically win any Oscars. Had more footage of his own footage probably displayed tonight than Jane Campion. What did they win? Did these people get anything? Did the army of the dead get anything for being the, you know, Oscars fan favorite film? They were promised an exclusive stage moment. So that like countdown, the montage. Basically, they asked

Twitter to build them a montage right let me let me let me let me share something right now get that bullshit out of here going forward okay if they ever do anything like that again just like you know

minimizing the eight categories on the telecast they ever do any of that shit again it's gonna be a big problem people were not happy about either of those things they they're it made the Academy seem like a

joke that's not what you want there's too much history. It made the Academy seem like a joke. That's not what you want. There's too much history and greatness in the Academy to make yourself seem so vulnerable to stupidity. And that's what it felt like. I mean, especially when you compare it to, again, another like Sean Fix-It idea of like, let's do a hero's montage.

You know what I mean? Like, and so you could put your superhero, you could put the Flash entering the Speed Force if you wanted to yeah um in that in that montage but like you know when it's when the cheers moment montage starts it starts with matrix bullet time right it's it starts with neo dodging the bullet and you're like yeah okay that's a blockbuster plus a filmmaking craft moment that i can cheers and get behind and then it just gets kind of weirder from there you know what what I mean? Like I, yeah.

Think about the absolute bizarre nature of this show. We entered the speed force with the biggest movie star in the world slapped a comedian on stage. Coda won best picture. That's the third weirdest, like Coda winning best picture seems fine, right? Like comparatively.

It does seem fine what do you think of Amy Schumer and Wanda Sykes and Regina Hall I have so much goodwill for Regina Hall but again most of the bits didn't work for me I actually kind of liked Amy Schumer's monologue and Amy Schumer

doesn't usually I did too I thought she was pretty funny yeah I thought she was funny I thought she was really funny after the Will incident, actually. That's a hard job. We saw Jimmy Kimmel have to do this a couple of times in the past to kind of depressurize the room a little bit when something strange has happened.

I thought she was pretty good in that and I agree with you. I'm pretty hot and cold on Amy Schumer, personally. I think what they were trying... I don't know if Will Packer ever said this out loud in the planning of everything, but Amy Schumer personally. I thought that, you know, I think what they were trying, you know, I don't know if Will Packer ever said this out loud in the planning of everything, but between the table set up down in the front and some of the edgier jokes at the expense of like filmmakers and nominees,

it felt more globesy than it did Academy Awards. Amy Schumer's monologue felt more like a pal palatable ricky gervais than you know anything else we've seen more roasty for sure yeah yeah more roasty the dj khaled intro of the three women however i thought was a mess just a mess you know it just would landed with a thud a major major thud that was really disappointing anything else that was strange unusual or unfortunate before we shout out a couple of good things um let me let me consult my notes really quickly do you remember how will smith slapped chris rock that was very strange wondering i'll tell you what i thought was kind of fascinating was the way that very few people from the show spoke about the conflict in Ukraine.

But it was recognized in the telecast with the moment of silence and then the barrage of crypto commercials that were speaking to that moment. I think only a handful of people said anything about it from the stage. I expected there to be a bigger presence. Obviously, there was this kind of threat of whether Zelensky would be present. Sean Penn threatened to smelt one of his oscars i i i wonder if he is smelting i believe i believe he said it would be the oscar that he got for milk and and not the oscar that he got for mystic river i think he actually said that in an interview which is just incredibly sean penn um he could be smelting right now by the way we need a live smelting on instagram i would like sean penn to dial in mid smelt um

my my okay so full disclosure i have not seen the film four days uh which had a nominated song it's not a real movie. Amy Schumer said something very briefly in her like seat filler bit and I think Jessica Chastain talked about it at some point in her confusing speech not very many moments yeah and I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing I actually thought the show the opening trio

monologue was a lot more politically charged than I was expecting and I could sense the like many, many people tuning the show out in the earliest stages. It's almost like they're setting a trap for people where they're like, if you don't want to be a part of this, we're going to let you know right now.

And Regina King did something somewhat similar at the telecast last year. It was a little bit of like, this is our party. And if you're not interested, fuck off. And whether that's effective or not, or what the producers wanted or not, I'm not totally sure. But they did seem to be laying the groundwork for something that actually did not really necessarily manifest throughout the telecast. I wouldn't describe it as like an overly progressive or speechifying kind of telecast.

It was actually just a little bit more schizophrenic, ultimately, which is part of the problem with it. I will say, I've seen Troy Kotzer win a lot of awards in the last couple of months. I still thought his speech was incredibly moving. I thought Yunya Zheng's introduction of him and the way that she announced him with sign was beautiful. I thought all of that was terrific and kind of like why I like award shows. He's great in CODA. I would never argue with anybody who told me that he deserved to win more than anybody else. So it's important to kind of hold on to those moments. I feel like usually you get like six or seven of those moments in an award show. There were not that many this year. What did you think about Kotzer? I feel like I got two.

I actually cried for Ariana DeBose's speech as well. You and I talked about this after the SAG Awards. We felt like her speech was a little muted and i was like maybe she's saving it for the oscars and i feel like she she really brought some power there and i so i teared up a little and then when troy won um and yin yin jing like stood there took his oscar from him so his hands would be free uh there were there were like that, you know, people were handing out the awards. Their job was to get the presenter out of shot, but she just like stood there. And so it was a rare moment where it wasn't the winner just alone at the mic. She was there sort of just like beaming pridefully at him. And it just, I lost it. I was like weeping. And I don't

usually like weep at the Oscars. I usually tear up but I like that really got me and then that might have been it for me in terms of like a major emotional moment. That's pretty bad. That's not ideal. I'll say I personally got a little emotional just seeing Zoe Kravitz.

Big fan of hers, you know. She stirs me. She looked really good. I was kind of like why is there not more more Zoe Kravitz on this telecast? She's a huge star and the biggest movie in the world right now. Maybe give us more than just one minute with Jake Gyllenhaal. That was odd. You know what made me tear up? Was every time something happened with Andrew Garfield,

Amanda texted me and be like, oh, I'm really happy for you. And I was just like... Oh, that's a little undermining on her part. I don't know. We know how she feels about tick, tick, boom. No,

no, no. She was, she was definitely needling me. I offered her my tick, tick, boom, karaoke microphone,

uh, as thanks for support for my guy, Andrew. Um, yeah, it's, uh, maybe I cried a little when I saw,

uh, Kristen Stewart's shorts cause they were incredible. Damn. She looked great too. Or shirtless Timothy Chalamet. But yeah, I mean, I think you're right that there's like a bunch of people that they could have,

like let us spend more time with Zoe Kravitz. Let us spend more time with Zendaya. Like she was there, but not very present. Let us spend more time. So they gave us Josh Brolin jason momoa who are very charming they they they presented the pre-tapes because dune won so many awards at the pre-tapes so we get them on stage a little bit but i could have spent so much more time with those two well we know that they also filmed quite a bit more because they presented all eight awards in the pre-tapes

and we only saw them present one award because they're trying to like maintain the illusion that it's all quasi happening live you know what a cockamamie stunt that was i really can't believe they did that jason momoa i cannot stress this enough jason momoa is wearing a scrunchie and we barely got to see it so what are we even doing here you know what else what what was anything else good i thought jenny bevan speech was pretty funny and like dottering and just very sweet and she was just kind of like ah the world sucks so sometimes you need a movie like cruella i was like rock on that's totally right sometimes you need a movie like army of the dead you know sometimes you need a movie like uh like nightmare alley you know just to get you through the day you just need

the good stuff so i liked what jenny had to there. Why were Shawn Mendes and Tracee Ellis Ross presenting adapted screenplay? What do those two people have to do with movies? Why were they talking about Waldorf salads? Why is Shawn Mendes, period? Okay, here's my favorite part, actually. Okay, so let's talk about the whole Rachel Zegler thing, which I don't think we talked about before. But like, so Rachel's not, was not invited to the ceremony, was sort of vocally disappointed about that.

Then she got invited to be a presenter and we saw her present. And there's some theories around that. One has to do with the fact that she's in production in a film in London, a Disney production, and maybe Disney doesn't want her to like come out and potentially get COVID, pause production, have her fly out, et cetera, et cetera. The other being because they do not want Ansel Elgort there because he is shrouded in controversy.

They didn't want to invite one lead and not the other. And so they left them both out, but she was there and they paired her with like, I want to say budget Ansel Elgort, but I actually think it's the reverse. Like Ansel Elgort is like budget Jacob Elordi. I don't know, but like slotting Jacob Elordi in there who was like in the Ansel Elgort bucket was a hilarious combination to me. Jacob seemed extremely uncomfortable. And again, that feels like a bid for, you know, hey, we've got a Euphoria star up here.

Like, check it out. Or, I'm sorry, Deepwater co-star Jacob Elordi. Thank you very much, Joanna. I was going to correct you. Sixth lead in Deepwater, Jacob Elordi, I believe you're referring to. I mean, look, if you want to get, if you want to coast off of the euphoria wave there's a very easy way to do that zendaya sydney sweeney hunter schaefer alexa demi present together that's it that would be awesome or get fezco either way that would be the answer it's not jacob alorti who who is he presenting with who was his partner

in presentation i can't even remember rachel's english oh it was rachel like what do those two have to do with each other they're just both young i think they just put him in there because he's kind of ansel elgortish i don't know but it all came together last minute so i don't know what the previous plan was also she came up to his elbow it was oh man it was a whole thing she's quite tiny and he's quite tall she's a little mini pocket-sized kid yeah so any other bright spots for me? I mean, Jessica Chastain, and Amanda talks to me about this too, that the minute she saw Jessica Chastain's dress on the red carpet,

she's like, I will not be mad if she wins. The dress wins. She wins. She looked amazing, and I thought she had a really good speech, and I'm very happy for her. I'm not a huge fan of the eyes of Tammy Faye, but I am a huge fan of hers.

And I thought she acquitted herself well basically this whole time. I thought we talked about the perfect Will Smith campaign. Honestly, the most perfect campaign was Jessica Chastain. She always shouted out the people who worked hard on that movie. She always gave love to the below the line folks. She made a big show of it. And I think she was right to to be sitting in her chair when that makeup and hairstyling award was given out. She was a leader in that whole conversation. You know, she can be a little bit showy, a little bit theater kid, I think, in some of her presentation. But she's a really, really good actor. And it's cool that she has an Oscar. I agree. I completely agree. I'm also really glad that they got, like, the most iconic, my favorite Bond villain, Rami Malek, to introduce Billie Eilish and Phineas.

I'm kidding because Rami Malek do we even remember? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to say about all these choices here. Such a weird show.

Why didn't Al Pacino and Robert De Niro get to talk when they went on stage? What was that about? Why were they silenced? Al Pacino didn't look like super duper well to me.

No. I wouldn't say Anthony Hopkins necessarily seemed like he was really in control while presenting Best Actress either. You know, that's the, I mean, some of these folks are getting on in years. Anthony Hopkins, 84 years old. The Godfather trio, when they came out, like both Coppola and Pacino, like Bobby still looks pretty spry, but like Coppola and Pacino looked a little like frail.

And that was concerning to me. pretty spry, but like Coppola and Pacino looked a little like frail. And, and that was concerning to me. And also, you know, something that you said on green room and, and a bunch of people have talked about on Twitter is like the absolute miss of not having the governor's awards, have a bigger moment at this ceremony. What are we doing?

Huge miss, huge miss. Well, it just bizarre. Like, and, and not just because I love Elaine May or I think Liv Ullman is a really special actress and that people should go discover her work if they don't

know about it. And not because Sam Jackson is like, is he the most famous person who's been in movies the last 10 years because of Marvel? And not just because Danny Glover and the work that he does as a humanitarian and the work that he does for a humanitarian and the work that he does for all filmmakers but especially filmmakers

of color it's a fucking outrage that they don't put any of that stuff on the show Amy Schumer mentioned it for one and a half minutes in like in between bits

and I don't understand it like great moments happen when they recognize people who have been doing this work for 30 or 35 years I know I sound like a cliche like a parody of myself. When I talk about this stuff, when I'm trying to like scream at 22 year olds about how important

Elaine May is, but she is so fucking act like she is like, don't just shuttle her to the side while I have to wait for Kyle Buchanan to like take a video at a, at a dinner party. This is fucking stupid. Okay. I'm sorry. My rant is over yeah well i i just think that um again and again and again they're making choices here in a bid for an audience that we are not that audience we'll have to see if the ratings are you know if there's a significant ratings bump um and i'm not

even talking about the last half hour which i'm sure there is going to be a bump in like the end of it then we'll have that conversation but i I can't imagine, it doesn't feel like there was, did not feel to me like more people than ever were tuning in to the Oscars. It felt like the same close circle of folks tuning into the Oscars this year. And so it just felt to me like the messiest Oscars I've ever seen, like without question, before pre-slap. completely agree with you that's that's kind of where i wanted to end this which is that pre-slap i was feeling quite low yeah about the state of this the state of doing this spending time with you and doing this and no you love spending time no no and chris and me doing this don't don't misunderstand me it's not about spending time with you that i feel low about

or chris or amanda or anybody else who wants to talk to me about the Academy Awards. It's that the Academy Awards is in this state, that they let themselves get to this state. Now, some of it is the state of the business, obviously. Some of it is just the way that this show is produced, which I just did not think was very successful. Were they quote unquote saved by a truly insane moment? Time will tell, I guess. I don't think you can promise audiences in 2023 that two famous people are going to fight each other on stage again. That will never happen again.

That was bizarre. So I don't know. I guess we'll wait to hear more about this. I just saw on the internet that Chris Rock has chosen not to file charges, although apparently LAPD asked him if he would have liked to, because that, of course, was assault, what happened on stage. So, I don't know. I mean,

where do we leave the Oscars? Is it in a better place? Is it in a worse place? It's in a far worse place than it was already so low. And I've spent years covering this, and I've poured a lot of my time and love and attention to not only covering these awards, but watching them. Since you and I were kids. We've been watching them, loving them, learning about the history, etc. So we do not say it lightly when we say that the Academy that was already in trouble after this, I think, embarrassing display. And I'm not trying to be like a hot take pundit and like come in with like a, you know, a big proclamation and doomsday. I just genuinely watch this going, what did I, what did I even watch?

What am I even watching here? I'll be curious to see how all of this unfolds, how, how people write about it, how people talk about it. If I'm alone or if we are in the minority here, I don't think we are. That's not my sense. No. You know, but, but will I be interested in like the academy awards next year yes because you know the academy awards at its best what it does because i had a real crisis actually when i first started covering the academy awards in in earnest i had this sort of crisis of like do awards really matter this much why am i spending so much time covering awards? Why do they even matter? And something that my old colleague,

Katie Rich said to me is like, if you think about awards and the way in which they, and you've talked about this before, and the way in which they shine a light on films that people might not otherwise see. So if you're a completist and you want to watch all the best picture nominees, or like, if you still haven't gotten that Apple TV plus subscription and you, and you're like, well, I got to watch Coda now, you know,. I want people to watch CODA. I want people to watch Drive My Car. I want people to watch Worst Person in the World. And if this silly, stupid pageant of rich people patting themselves on the back helps those stories get seen, that's the meaning that I find in all of this. And so as the pageantry got more and more away from that tonight, that's, I think, what I was really struggling with.

I don't mean to be a bummer about it, but I just, you know. I think you're right. That's what I'm struggling with. You've spoken good sense on this show for weeks now, months now on the show. You were right about Coda all the way down. Congratulations to you. I'm sorry. No, it's fine fine i'll learn to live

with it just like i've learned to live with every other goddamn shame that is best picture that just thank you so much for for for coming on this journey with me not an easy position that we put you in on this show and you crushed it you have been aces for months so i appreciate you um a true delight to do it um but you but you know, I'm really excited also eventually for Amanda come back because like, I need, I need the full Amanda take. I think we'll get it very soon. I, I, I look forward to a deep analysis of the Will Smith experience from Amanda very soon. Joanna, you and I will be back together soon on this show too. We got some stuff planned for April. So I'm looking forward to that.

Thank you so much to everybody who's been following along with our coverage of the Academy Awards for the last nine months. How long have we been doing this? A very long time. Thank you so much to our producer, Steve Allman, who's filling in for Bobby Wagner tonight, pulling the Sunday night shift. Appreciate you and all your work on this episode. I'll be back on the big picture very soon. I'm probably going to be talking about the Will Smith thing very soon, honestly. So stay tuned.