The Big Picture - The 2023 Alternative Oscars, A.K.A the Big Picks!

Episode Date: February 28, 2023

That’s right, after a one-year hiatus, the Alternative Oscars are back, and that means Wesley Morris is back! He joins Sean and Amanda to hand out the only awards that matter. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Wesley Morris Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did your favorite NFL team win the Super Bowl? No? Then the NFL Draft is your Super Bowl. I'm Danny Heifetz, and from now until the draft, we are turning our fantasy football show feed into the Ringer NFL Draft Show. Every Tuesday and Thursday, we talk about the top players and most important storylines for the NFL Draft.

So join us on the Ringer NFL Draft Show. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the real Oscars. That's right. After a one-year hiatus, the alternative Oscars are back. And that means Wesley Morris is back from The New York Times. Hi, Wesley. Hi. How are you? I'm pretty good.

It's nice to be back. Amanda, you know, it's great to see you. It's lovely to see you. I mean, I've seen you. I've seen Sean more than I've seen Amanda. So it's an extra treat to see Amanda. It's always nice to see you as well, Wesley. You're coming to us live from New York. We're here in Los Angeles. Coastal elites that we are.

We really are in control of awards season here in a big way. Are we? I do not feel in charge at all. It's a different conversation. I want to talk a little bit about what's going to be happening over the next couple of weeks, but really more importantly, like the meat of this episode is where we give out the awards that we believe should happen. And frankly, I have put together quite a few nominees here. You've added some. Wesley, I don't even know if you've looked at our list, but you're going to help us pick.

Because I actually like to just, I'm a guest. I'm just going to follow your lead. I will interject where necessary. I've seen what y'all did and we can talk about it. Okay. I want to say it was mostly Sean, but he also does this where he hogs the spreadsheet, you know, or the document. And so by the time you get into the document, everything's filled, everything's taken care of. There's not really a lot of room. And one of the things I've learned working with sean these many years is the way to maintain the relationship is to not delete anything you know that's when that's when things get dicey so it's mostly sean but we can talk about it thoroughness is a sin call me be as a bub that's all i can say uh let's talk a little bit about the pgas first okay so? So neither of us saw this, Amanda.

Wesley, you didn't see it either. Despite the fact that I'm a voter in the Producers Guild of America, and I'm happy to talk about that a little bit here, they did give out a Best Film Award, and that film, of course, went to Everything Everywhere All at Once, which is just absolutely dominating right now. That wasn't a huge surprise to me. Were you surprised by that result?

I was a little bit. I thought if anything else was going to break through it would be at the pgas which tends to be slightly more like blockbuster friendly for lack of a better word and um not quite as uh inside the internet as the as the other awards and so when i saw the Everything Everywhere win, in my mind, I was like, okay, well, this is done. Like this is award season has wrapped up, at least in the Best Picture category.

So this award also uses Ranked Choice balloting, much like the Academy Awards. It also has matched on seven of the last 10 Best Pictures. So I think your instincts are right, Amanda. Wesley, do you even look at something like the PGAs at this stage of your life? Do you care when these guilds start giving out their awards? I always pay attention to these things. I mean, I don't really know what it's going to mean

for anything, right? Like, I'm not an Oscar watcher. I'm not a... I mean, I pay attention to this stuff, but I don't actually know what it means. But it always raises a lot of questions for me. Like, in the way that the Academy has expanded its membership and diversified its membership, have these other organizations done the same thing? Not in quite the same way. They have made some strides in the same way that the industry has tried to make some strides, but not

in the quite necessarily enforced way that the Academy has. And frankly, the Academy has done so very publicly and openly. And the membership of the PGA is a little bit more mysterious, for example. They added Sean. They did add me. Does that count? As a 40-year-old white man, let me say, I am proud to be making significant change. You are definitely bringing that age number down. That may be true.

Bringing the age number up is Tom Cruise, who was fetid at the... Only numerically, nominally bringing it up. That's true. Tom Cruise, of course... That face is keeping it about 12. Yeah, everything is sitting high on his face. I'm impressed by the gravity that is operating. But I think it's good work.

He left a little bit of the bags. You know, there's enough left behind for you to see some of the years, but not too many of the years. My note would be, and Wesley, you and I have talked about this on text, I like the longer hair. I think we're getting a little too shaggy. And I'm wondering whether actually he staged the timing of the haircut like he's going to get one before the Oscars. And so the PGAs was like the real tail end of this. But it's a little long now.

It's gone just past. Half an inch. That's all I'm asking. Could it not be for a role? Do we think that he... I mean, I don't know what he's up to. I think he's filming Mission Impossible 8 right now. Like, for real? Yes, for real.

He was on Jimmy Kimmel Live last week. And when he appeared, he said he had just come from filming. So, you know, I think he's always just coming somewhere from filming because that's entirely dominating his life right now, except for when he goes to the PGAs. So he went to the PGAs, he got this Lifetime Achievement Award. When you suspected that maybe Everything Everywhere All At Once wouldn't win, did you think Top Gun Maverick had a chance to win this award? I thought it was its best chance.

Yeah. And it did not win, I think in part because they were giving Cruise this Lifetime Achievement Award. Cruise, of course, is a huge producer in the business in addition to being a movie star.

And he gave a 10-minute speech. Tom Cruise doesn't really talk in public very much. Yeah, that's true. And he's been very particular about his appearances. He did do the thing in this speech, Wesley,

which I thought was so funny, which is he just told the exact same anecdote about getting cast in Taps that he's been telling for the last 12 years. And that was five minutes of the speech.

So long. He was so specific about every person who worked on Taps. He was name-dropping Harold Becker's The Onion Field in the anecdote

going on and on about all the different technicians who taught him how the business works and all the agents and producers and studios. And it was this wave of a slightly performative, humbled gratitude. Everything was a thank you to everyone he had crossed paths with. Everyone was a thank you and also a slightly chilling, I love you. And we should also note that the cadence of it was really interesting and slightly slower and more somber than you would expect for. Well, I guess maybe you would expect it from Tom Cruise at this point, but it's like it's like he was giving the Bill Pullman Independence Day speech, you know, as opposed to like, thanks so much for all this time.

And aren't we so lucky to do what we have to do? He's like, literally the fate of the world rests on me telling Jerry Bruckheimer that I love him, which is a real thing that happened during the 10 minute speech. Wow. Well, you know, I gotta say it probably isn't unearned that he feels this way or that he would do this right on the one hand i don't know if i don't know if this is true and i don't know if it came from one of you two to me but that there is a moment oh yeah it was i know sean you were involved a moment at maybe the oscar luncheon where steven spielberg leans over Cruise and says, thank you for saving this industry. Yes, that did happen.

Yeah. He's a producer. He knows what the stakes are. Oh, yeah. He knows that what happened to this movie and to him and I guess to us by extension was a miracle. Although I have mixed feelings

about how miraculous it actually was, to be honest, because, you know, I think that movie, while different from a lot of other movies that make a lot of money these days, is still kind of like those movies, right? It is some kind of sequel. It is also, depending on how they go forward, how they think about going forward

if they choose to do that, it is kind of what we would call a reboot. You know, depending on who winds up in the fore of this movie, if he's even willing to let the foreground be ceded to someone else. And it's also a superhero

movie. At the end of the day, this MF could come from Marvel. Right? I mean, Maverick, I mean, Maverick, just like they all have, you know,

they all have superhero names. That's true. Right. I don't know. I just feel like this movie is as much in conversation with those movies as it is the antidote

to, you know, where we've been going these last blank number of years the only difference is tom cruise's tom cruiseness that is the thing that separates that movie regardless of what genre it is like he's the reason i mean some maybe some nostalgia obviously that the movie sort of does a good job of re-characterizing but the reason we all went was tom cruise i think that's true i think he knows that i do think he has been weirdly humbled by the magnitude of his own power which seems contradictory but like i think he's he feels like he has to do a thing now where he can't spike the football in the end zone anymore like it's it's now so he's so you know it's the timing of this

is really funny because bill and i got into a really funny debate slash discussion on the rewatchables on friday and we were talking about tom hanks and the film catch me if you can and bill described tom hanks as the goat and i said said, sir, he is not the goat. The goat movie star is Tom Cruise from that generation. And we're giving each other a hard time in a funny way. But Cruise now, when you think of him compared to somebody like Hanks, who was effectively a supporting actor at this stage of his career, Cruise maintains, like you just said, Wesley, his Cruiseness. I mean, he still is the whole show. All controversies aside, all complicated feelings about him aside over the last 15, 20 years.

The 10-minute speech that we watched. 15 or 20 years? The whole time. 50 years. However long his stretch has been. But it's also exponential. And now whatever Cruiseness that he had in the 90s has like gone through the 2000s like bizarro period and the shift to just being a guy who jumps out of planes and has like become its own next level

he's like an alien warrior stuntman yeah it's a it's a very while also being this avatar of success that Hollywood really needs. And so when Steven Spielberg is genuflecting at his altar in public, it's just a remarkable thing. Anyhow, I bring all of this up to say that I thought that speech was really interesting. It is posted on YouTube if people want to watch it. I'll watch it later. You know, most of what you hear in it, you will have heard before, but I think your point, Amanda, about his chilling intensity

while delivering um affection is quite fascinating shades of eyes wide shut for sure uh but it's also can i just remind us all this is also the same person i mean in line with what we've been talking about in terms of his being a like this this industrial savior. I think that it's also useful to remember that story that came out at the height of the pandemic when they all got on set. I don't know which movie they were making, but I guess somebody recorded it and sent it to us. Did we hear it?

Did we get to hear that? I can't remember. We are the gold standard. Because I confused it with the Christian fail. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Yes. This is how much this means to this person, right? Yeah. That he is dressing people down, not because somebody like gave him a frappuccino when he ordered a macchiato or a mochaccino. That man hasn't had any sugar in the last 25 years. Well, I don't know what... Nevermind. not okay so i this is a person who did that and you couldn't be mad at him for it because he was trying to uphold a standard yeah and i think that the way to think about tom cruise now is as a standard bearer right is as a person trying

to i mean with all of his whatever he's got left maintain some kind of tether between the past and the future um with respect not necessarily to movie making per se, but to this idea of what movie stars are and can be and once were. That is really important to him. I also think that he really, I think the thing that he's so grateful for and humbled by with respect to this movie is that people really did go.

Oh, yeah. Multiple times. The most obnoxious thing about it in my, you know, I did not like, I don't like those movie preambles now that you get as a paying customer. Yeah. Where like the maker of Till comes on

and she tells you what her movie is not about. And, you know, Tom Cruise comes on and he's like, hey, I want to thank everybody for coming out. We made this for you. I hate all of those things. But in the case of Tom Cruise, I really believe he is doing this for us.

He really, I really believe it. Who else is he doing it for? Well, I think both things can be true. I think he literally has no idea what else to do on Earth except play Ethan Hunt and Maverick now. And frankly, I'm fine with it. It's like, I think both things can be true. I think he literally has no idea what else to do on Earth except play Ethan Hunt and Maverick now. And frankly, I'm fine with it.

It's like, I'm not, I'm actually not, but go on, Sean. Well, I think because he's not willing to do, he's not willing to challenge himself as an actor,

which we've talked about many times over the years now, where he doesn't, he doesn't want to go back to 1999. We want him to go back so badly when he was so interested in all different kinds of filmmakers. But he's made this pact with Christopher McQuarrie.

They're doing this thing forever. I do think you're right, Wesley, that he is still bound, like emotionally bound to the idea of being an entertainer. He wants to entertain audiences in a way that I find quite charming. Like I really appreciate. I agree. I do. Like I watch a lot of shit all the time. And constantly, I'm like, wow,

people are just so far up their own asses. And that goes for commercial entertainment, and that goes for personal statements. Both directions, people just can't see the forest for the trees. He's like, what we need to do is make a perfect machine that makes people happy. I like that. I appreciate what he's up to.

I'm very grateful. I also don't think he knows what else to do with his life. I mean, like, what do you think Tom Cruise does all day when he's not shooting a movie? Fix his motorcycles. He's definitely getting suits made. You think that's it? He's just standing there and still?

Sean, can you help me out? He needs to bring the leg up. Like, he's got, like, there are two breaks. You don't need two breaks, Tom Cruise. Just one break or no breaks. He's kind of trapped in 1991, which is okay. Somebody's got to talk to him about that. He can really let that go a little bit.

No breaks. He's getting into, like, grandfather territory. So, honestly, he kind of can get away with it once he crosses 65. Sean, you keep using numbers on this person. Sorry. There is no number. You're right. He's a quasar. He is millions person. Sorry. There is no number. You're right. He's a quasar.

He is millions of years old. There's no number. So he can't be out here being like, I'm a grandpa, because they'll never say it. And if you think those kids ever, nobody calls him dad. Nobody calls him grandpa.

He's like Tom, Tommy, Pop. Yeah, that's Pop. Bruh. No, all he has, all he is is Tom Cruise. All he has left is being the king of the box office. And we get to receive the movies, which I'm so grateful for. I love them. But, like, he's going to do it until one of the stunts goes wrong or something else goes wrong.

It's just... I can't bear to think about that. Become his entire identity. I can't either. It's really, it's distressing, but there is also a level of just focus and total consumption of the person that... But I also, don't you think this is a lesson

that he has learned? Like, I think, I mean, I'm not in his mind, but I have heard stories from people who have worked with him um i also just have my own belief about this i think that he does not ever again want to feel whatever whatever embarrassment is for him like industrial and industry wise like i you know i don't i don't know if he would go near a script like like the edge of tomorrow again right and we all acknowledge now that that is a very we all knew it then too very good movie yes that was just mangled by an industry that was in the middle of turning into

what we've got now um you know would he play jerry mc? Like if a Jerry Maguire Could he? flew a, of course he could. Yeah, he could. Of course he could. All right, sorry. No, I think he could. I just, I think you're right

that he doesn't want to expose himself to failure. I don't think he would do it. Yeah. I don't think he would do it. I think that the mummy, I think something like that and even the good things,

like, I like that, oh God, what was the, what was the pilot, the pilot the other pilot movie where he's the drug mule oh american made the doug lyman yeah yeah i love that movie that's the kind of mid-tier movie star sort of thing that he could do in his sleep and just gave 140 percent to it didn't make that much money so he thinks it's a failure even though he was very good

at it i just think i just i don't know amanda's right he's not he's it's a failure, even though he was very good at it. I just think, I just, I don't know. Amanda's right. He's not, he's, it's not that he doesn't have, he's trapped himself, basically. And we have helped him stay just, right? By not going to see him when he is doing more interesting things. He's, we can't change him. And I won't try, frankly. I've made peace with it.

Yes. Let's, let's,. Yes, let's pivot, because I thought that there was a chance that we would get a chance to talk about Tom Cruise a lot more in the next couple of weeks, but I don't think that's going to be the case. And if we didn't think so after Saturday's results at the PGAs, I think Sunday's results at the SAG Awards, more or less locked down where the whole race is going,

which is to say it won four out of the five big film awards, everything everyone once did, including a surprise win for Jamie Lee Curtis in Best Supporting Actress, a win for Michelle Yeoh, a somewhat of a surprise win for Best Actress. Kiwi Kwan, of course, won. He is by far the front runner

in the Best Supporting Actor race. And they, as expected, won Best Ensemble. And so it's just kind of over. Like, there's been almost, there's almost never been a case where the winners of DGA, SAG, and PGA have not gone on to win Best Picture, except in the rare case of Apollo 13,

your beloved film. You did gesture at me. That was, I, you included it in the document for me. That's painful. Love that movie. There's never been a case where a film has won all three of those awards plus the WGA award. And the WGAs have not yet happened. It is expected that everything ever wants is going to win there.

And when it does, we're kind of headed towards a weird, weirdly, I don't know, all said and done Academy Awards, final 20 minutes of the Academy Awards, which is fascinating. I mean, Wesley, like, we talked about this actually on Bill's show a few months ago about how this movie is a good story and how, you know, the Daniels are very creative and it's a really uncommon potential frontrunner for Best Picture. But if you would have asked me in March, you know, how many Oscars is this movie going to win? I would have

said, will it be nominated for more than one? I doubt it. And here we are. Best editing? Yeah. I mean, it's... Most editing? It might win three acting Oscars. I mean, that's crazy. I do not think that Angela Bassett is going to lose that Academy Award.

I'm sorry, Jamie Lee Curtis. I agree with that. But she's very weak right now. If Carrie Condon won the BAFTA and Jamie Lee Curtis won the SAG, that's tough. No, no more BAFTAs. No more BAFTAs talk.

The BAFTAs are just an exception. But they're predictive in the acting categories, not in best picture. Yeah, but I just, that's a bunch of British people being like,

that island's close by. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just all it is. And I thought Carrie Condon was very good. They picked Germany. I mean, they went with... Yeah, exactly. It's just Europe-focused. I don't like the nature of what we're talking about, though, because

I just don't feel comfortable saying that anything is a luck because the thing that I have come to love about the Academy Awards is, like, one of these people is not going to win. It's just how it's going to be. I don't know who, I don't know which one, but they're not all winning. who has been waiting for something like this to happen where the movie hasn't been imported from, you know, in the case of Parasite, South Korea, Drive My Cars from Japan. This is an American movie. You know, it does star Michelle Yeoh,

but it's an American movie about American people telling an American story. It's exciting because well, I guess there was Minardi, which this is a much better movie, I think, than that other movie. They have a lot in common, actually, aside from the genre elements, in terms of the shape of the family

and the idea of legacy and generational connectivity and all those things are related. But one is Uli's Gold, and the other is a very exciting movie. And I just related but one is yuli's gold and the other is a very exciting movie um and i like i just i i know i just do that little kid come on oh my god anyway i i just feel like there is something very special yet again about these academy awards for for a for lots of people who would like to see a thing that almost never happens in, what'll be, 96 years? Are we at 96 now? 95? This is the 95th, yeah.

Okay. So 95 years of this show. And I'm not really into the first person to blah blah blah but look it's special and when when when they win it's going to be very moving and i'm not going to think about the fact that if if you know let's say stephanie stephanie sue wins which you know she's probably not but she was my favorite thing in the movie um you know i'll be sad for angela bassett but I'll be really happy for her. I just feel like the momentousness of what could happen in two weeks is... I want to kind of separate that out from the kind of expectation that these things are going to happen. I don't know. The inevitability of this movie is sort of coming at the expense

of what is kind of just really wonderful. You make a good point, Wesley, and I thought that that was like the standout part of the SAG Awards, which full disclosure, I fast forwarded through on YouTube after they aired because of some bedtime issues.

Your bedtime issues. Yeah, exactly. But all of the acceptance speeches were incredibly moving in that way and spoke to this idea of we haven't really seen this before. This means something without like I just thought in like a sincere and like very exciting. And even the ensemble acceptance speech, which was kind of the most expected, I think, except for Kiwi Kwan. Yeah, well, I thought the best part about that was they just gave James Hong the floor for five consecutive minutes to talk about his life and career. James Hong should have been nominated. He's great in that movie.

He's obviously been great in many things over the years. And, you know, he was talking about, like, being at a SAG Awards meeting with, liketon Heston and like, you know, it was incredible and just kept going and making jokes and made the same points about like, can you imagine, you know,

a movie like this winning however many years ago. So it was really, it was great vibes in the room. Well, can I just say the one thing that I, that I really liked about that speech and that I really like about this movie

and that I feel like it actually does make sense in some ways as a potential Best Picture winner is, you know, when James Tom was talking, he made reference to the fact that the first movie he ever made was with Clark Gable.

And he made reference to the movie, The Good Earth. And the actors were cast in The Good Earth. And he was drawing, he's like, he's a bridge. He's a bridge person in the history of Hollywood who has been there for 70 plus years making movies. And in doing so, he's seen how the business has changed,

how the industry has changed, how the Academy Awards has changed. And you're right, Wesley, like a movie like this, it wouldn't have had a chance to get made 20 years ago, let alone be the best picture front runner. So it is fascinating. These people were being mocked by the movies that were winning. Yes, yes.

So there's a lot to celebrate about it. I think you and I, of course, are susceptible to, we've been having the same conversation for four months. In this case, I'm not burned out on everything everywhere. The idea that it might dominate in two weeks

is just fascinating from a historical perspective. We'll see how things shake out because you're right, Wesley. Things do, nothing is ever as it seems with the Oscar race.

People were pointing that out to me last night that something's going to come along that we don't see happening. I didn't see Jamie Lee Curtis happening last night.

So you never know where things are going to fall. Brendan Fraser won Best Actor. He did. So the acting categories seem slightly more unsettled. And I'm sorry to revert

to Oscar prognosticate your speech. Wesley, you're right. But, like, there were surprises last night. For sure. So who can really say? But can I ask another question along the lines of what we're talking about? And it's a political question. And it basically involves something that I have been talking to people about,

or, like, having people, like, talk to me about or having people talk to me about and I've had feelings about it. But I think that there is this... There's a lot going on with the Academy and with this movie and with the kind of inevitability question and this idea of things winning these top prizes because, you know, it's a movie about Asian

Americans or Asians in America that sort of supersedes the quality of the movie itself. You know, and I think that this is not what I think is happening here. I think maybe for some voters it might be, but this movie is not a mystery to me in terms of why people have embraced it. It was a box office hit. I think there is, you know, real, there's real, there are real ideas. This really is like an Oscar movie,

if you think about it. You sort of subtract out the multiverse aspect of what we're looking at and if you somehow manage to boil this down to this story it's just i mean it's the story of a marriage in crisis a mother repeating the sins of the family um the two sides coming together to you know that the factions in the family coming together to heal. I don't know. It, it's pretty conventional in that sense.

And it's conventional. Ness is kind of moving. I love the last 20 minutes of this thing. But I guess just sort of asking this question about how this, I mean, when you guys are talking to people about you know the sort of blind oscar voter conversation um are they mad that this could win best picture uh well it's a it's a matter of of taste like amanda's not a big fan of the movie i like the

movie this is but not my favorite movie this It's not my favorite of the 10 movies. It would be maybe fourth or fifth for me. It's not my favorite of the 10 movies either. I do think it has been a frontrunner for a long time and so because of that people naturally anything that rises to the top gets picked on a little bit. I think this movie

if it just was this surprise hit that had two or three Oscar nominations it would go down as like a beloved film because it would not be under the microscope as deeply as it has been. I gave this speech a couple of weeks ago on the show. I just think it's purely good for the Academy to be rewarding stuff like this. I think it's like way overdue the genre movies that have like major influence from Hong Kong and Japan. Yep.

And the idea of integrating science fiction story. I mean, science fiction is like virtually absent in the best picture conversation. So the idea of introducing science fiction into the race, I think is really meaningful. I think if you look back at a lot of the stuff that gets close to it, it's more like homage. Like the shape of water is like a creature from the black lagoon riff whereas this is something that is like in theory trying to push the storytelling shape forward so all that stuff i think is good i just think it's a victim of its circumstances you know there are some people who are like tar is going to be considered one of the cinematic achievements of the decade when we look

back on it and so we're not rewarding it now and we're making yet another oscar blunder and that may be true. I mean, I like to tar more than everything, every little once, but it's a good, I've always felt that this was a good movie with really interesting ideas, but also a kind of conventionality

that you point out that worked on me, you know, that worked on me as a parent, that worked on me as somebody who loves movie history. Like it just worked on me. So I don't think it's a big problem. People really love this movie. Like,

and I knew that intellectually, but even watching the SAG awards last night and just people absolutely cheering so loud. Like we have a real, like, you know, fan, like interactive element to it that,

you know, I guess I would cheer if I were in the room for Top Gun Maverick, but you know, like, I don't know. People are just psyched. And at some point it's hard to, I didn't connect to the movie in that way, but I'm not going to take it away from other people. Like people are just, I don't know. Good for them. I want to do an episode about this actually, but I'm curious if you both are familiar with the phrase, uh, epic bacon. Do you know that phrase? No. No. Okay, this is becoming increasingly common in the world of cultural criticism.

It's effectively something that's describing like a kind of gonzo entertainment that is like so bad it's good or like so bad for you that it's good. And that like there's a lot of like big red arrows pointing at the joke in something. There are a couple of epic bacon moments in Everything Everywhere All at Once. I was coming with the spirit of generosity and like happiness for other people.

And, you know, it's nice when something like when now I'm ready to walk out the door again. Well, I'm not praising it. I'm just explaining something. No, I think it's relevant because it's really it's big in the culture right now. Like Cocaine Bear Success, the movie Megan. There is there is this sense of like, I think the unbearable weight of massive talent,

the Nicolas Cage movie from last year is a version of what I'm describing where there's a kind of like, very online, like, did you see this dude? This is crazy.

Like, there is an aspect of Everything Ever Once that has that feeling to it that it's kind of the redditization of culture that I think is like not so good.

And I worry that there's going to be a lot of imitators of everything every once in a while that are not going to have the thoughtfulness and sincerity

that I think makes the movie ultimately effective for me. So I guess if we're looking at potential downsides or we're looking at people kind of like turning their noses up at a movie like this winning,

there is like the epic baconization of the academy awards which could happen i mean you never know like these things come in waves um and so that's like a little bit on my mind as i think about what kind of movies we're going to be seeing over the next few years but in general i'm not bothered by it i think it's cool yeah i mean i I don't know. I feel like the thing that I keep coming back to with this particular movie is it really, like to Amanda's point, just before I'd even seen it, I spent a month just hearing people talk about

how they'd seen it. Yeah. Yeah. And how much it had moved them and surprised them. And I mean, it's a little bit like how, you know, what I think is my favorite Academy Awards, my favorite personal Academy Awards story, which is like last year.

I mean, it's not maybe, okay, it's also kind of depressing too, but it's the moment that I finished watching CODA and I just knew the minute, the minute the song happens at the end, I'm like, nope. nope if my ballot is right next to me i'm checking coda yeah that's that's it it's a wrap because this is all anybody wants from a movie right this is that they just want to feel good yeah but doesn't top gun maverick do that too

of course yes i mean i think that i think i... The game I like to play with the Oscars is which of these 10 movies in the old days would have been Best Picture nominees? I mean, according to the old voting system where you only had 5 movies instead of 10. Which of these 10 movies would have been the 5 movies?

That's a really good question. Do you have your 5? I think Top Gun definitely would have been one of the five movies is how much i think people like it i think it would have been in a sharon fableman's um top gun everything everywhere all at once and um and tar those would be the five movies i think that's pretty much right i think stuff like all quiet and triangle of sadness these are beneficiaries of an expanded pool of a more diverse uh voting body anyhow just a couple one last thing

about the sag awards you know amanda as you noted it was on netflix's youtube channel because it's no longer on tnt tbs uh is that a basketball thing what happened uh i think that the ratings had been significantly down over the last three years and so so TNT just opted not to renew. I think that may have even preceded the Discovery merger, although who's to say? It did about 1.5 million views on YouTube, which is pretty close to the 1.8 million that it did last year on television on two different networks, actually, TNT and TBS, which is not bad. No commercials. Everybody was cursing during the show. A lot of montages.

Love a montage. And I think it's now just going to be available to stream in perpetuity which I find interesting as maybe a potential future for our award shows where they don't just get

mothballed, you know. That would be really cool. So Netflix will actually stream the show next year live on its service. In fact, this Saturday it's having I think its first ever

live streaming event, which is a Chris Rock comedy special, which I will be watching immediately when I get home from a 70mm screening of Babylon that I'm very excited about.

I'm going to share with that right now. You and this movie, we got to talk. No, we don't. You got to see it again. You see it again, then we'll talk.

Anyhow, I thought it was a good experiment and award shows are smaller and I'm fine with that and here we are

what do you think about it being on YouTube that view count did not include all the replays of the real of Austin Butler helping older

actresses on stage that I sent to many of my friends received rapturous results. He knows where his brain is better. He sure does. And you know what?

I'm fine with it. This concludes this week's Horned Up for Austin Butler segment from Amanda Dobbins. I'm just speaking for the population at large. Okay? You want to give out some alternative Oscars and step away from everything everyone wants for a second?

Let's do it. This is a very fake thing that we've created, but it's important. What are the rules of this thing, the alternative Oscars? No Oscar nominees are represented here, at least no actors who've been represented in the category of the Oscars, no movies that have been represented

in the corresponding category. We also, of course, create some of our own categories, frankly, all of which I think should be included in the Academy Awards. Would you concur? Yes. We've done this a few times, as I said. I don't know.

Do we miss out on adding an additional category? Is there anything we're missing at this point? We've got Stunt. Is Cameo new? Cameo's good. No, we did Cameo two years ago. Okay. We did Cameo.

For some of these categories, I've got 10 nominees. For some, I've got five. I'm going to rifle through them as we go through. And what I want to know is what you guys have strong feelings about. And if you feel that there are definitive people who should win. And if I've left anybody out, obviously, feel free to call me out. Let's start with best first feature. Because this is a,

this is a, just a no-brainer category for me for the Academy Awards. This is something that like, at a minimum, would create extraordinary controversy. And that's good for award shows. They don't want any more controversy, Sean.

You know it. It's too bad. They don't want it. A lot of good, a lot of good debuts this year. But then the crisis team could come in, you know? I know.

Are you aware that there's a crisis team on call for the Oscars this year, Wesley? In the aftermath of Will Smith's slap? Wait, I'm sorry, what? Like you said, there's a crisis team for the Oscars? Yeah. It's like the crisis suite in the Bourne Legacy. Is her name Olivia Pope? What does that mean?

What happens? Like, is they supposed to know that Will Smith is like, when he gets up from his chair, was going to go up to the, like, what are they going to do? Like, jump on him before he gets to Chris Rock?

You just reminded me that with Scandal not being on the air anymore, we've been robbed of the ability to see the Oscars-inspired episode of Scandal. That is really tough. In which Olivia Pope could have handled a situation like this. Definitely for 100%.

This is a reason to bring the show back. They should. Okay, best first feature. Here's what I put together. After Sun from Charlotte Wells, Barbarian from Zach Kreger, Causeway from Lila Neugebauer, Emily the Criminal from John Patton Ford,

Funny Pages from Owen Klein, The Inspection from Elegance Bratton, Nanny from Nikyatu Jusu, Saint Omer from Al Stiop, Turning Red from Domi Shi, and We're All Going to the World's Fair by Jane Schoenbrunn. Most of these movies we've talked about on the show, some at length, some we haven't spent as much time on as we probably should have. Pretty good group of films.

What strikes you there? I mean, I've seen half of these movies because, as you not, I'm not the movie go where I used to be. Um, and I think of, of the, the after sun is the one that, that got me. Um,

do you know, do you know about how Amanda and I are a little bit like not as emotionally connected to after sun as every other person we've ever, we've ever met? Uh, I do know that. I don't love it as much as other people do. I think he's good.

He's wonderful. And the kid is good. Frankie. He's wonderful. Corio. We'll get to her later. I think I would vote for Saint-Omer.

Yeah, that was actually where my head was at too. Have you had a chance to see this? Yeah. I just think that some of i mean actually i've seen six of these movies um and i think saint omer is the one that has an idea that is sort of fully emotionally executed i mean after sun does this a little bit but it's the structure is sort of

alienating in a way um and it's kind of precious in a way that i don't like um but saint omer it like the thing that makes that movie so devastating is it doesn't have the luxury of preciousness yeah i feel like the movie within the movie of saint omer is absolutely the yes feature of the year and I found myself not arguing even with it, but I was so engaged. I mean, it's obviously riveting. I didn't like the outside narrative, the framing device as much.

But even there... It's a very first feature-y thing to do. Sure. And it's very obvious, but the whole movie is... I mean, as Wesley said, it has ideas and it's really trying to communicate something and even knows it. So I was like annoyed, but also understood why the choice was made. So I'm good with it. I would happily accept Saint-Omer. That's really interesting. I mean, I think actually Aftersun and Saint-Omer both have

a kind of an awkward framing device, which holds me back from being fully invested in it as well. But it's a little bit hard to tell those stories without giving the viewer like the kind of necessary like context character, you know, just like the elder version of Frankie Correo's character kind of like springboards you into why she's looking back at these old video cassettes.

And same for Saint-Omer. We need a kind of like, you know, an aspirant like magazine storyteller or documentarian. I didn't like the After Sun framing device, but whatever. It's a challenge. It doesn't need it. These movies don't need that. I guess that last shot in After Sun is,

that relies on the framing device is sort of beautiful. You know, when it like circles around, but I don't really like it as much. I would go with Saint-Omer. The only thing that I would say is that I'm probably going to insist on a Saint-Omer when in another later category.

No spoilers. Yeah. So... Yeah, me too. Okay. We can't have a sweep here? Is that what you're saying? We can.

I just, I want it to be up front, you know? Okay. I can, can I ask, I've not seen Funny Pages. I funny pages i have the idea of owen klein filmmaker is very exciting to me sean speak thought it was great it's okay it's a movie that may as well have been made in 1996 for better and for worse um it's you know shot on 16 millimeter it's like deeply unpleasant people being strange to each other in new york um but it's also a really interesting

movie about creativity and like kind of how you're willing to live to live a creative life uh you know owen klein just has like a very clearly like r crumb-esque inspired storytelling sensibility the movie is like very gross but also very beautiful uh i liked it a lot i talked to him on the show i i can't wait to see what he does next I think similarly like it's not quite there because it feels very iterative

to a lot of other movies you've seen before it feels like a little bit of a love letter to his adolescence which I understand as a young filmmaker but

to me it's not it's not the clear cut winner a lot of these movies I like and don't love the only movie on this list that I really love is Barbarian but I'm probably the only person that's going to push hard for that.

You are definitely maybe the only person on this call who does. Yeah, I'm aware of that. Oh, Lord. Do you guys, maybe this is, is this a time to talk about Barbarian? No, I've spent so much, so many, so much breath on it. And it's also a little bit of a cheat since, since Zack Craig, I think he directed like a really mediocre comedy in like 2014. I think he co-directed it. So this is considered his official debut, but it's a cheat since since zach crager like co-direct i think he directed like a really mediocre comedy in like 2014 i think he co-directed it so this is considered his official debut but it's a cheat i would give it to saint omer okay we have a lot of negotiating to do here saint omer

it is saint omer okay next category breakthrough performance i've got 10 candidates diego calva from my beloved babylon dark shark from jackass forever i feel proud of that one gracia filipovich from marina uh tenno from back pan black panther wakanda forever sophie cower for tar to sue and beidou for the woman king amber mid thunder from prey jenna ortega from both X and Scream, Park Ji-Min from Return to Soul, and Daniel Zulgadri from Funny Pages. So... I like this group of people. Good crew.

There's only one person I haven't seen. Which one didn't you see? Daniel Zulgadri. Oh, right. Of course. We just talked about that. Where would you go, Amanda? I think that Jenna Ortega is cheating a little Oh, right. Of course. We just talked about that. Where would you go, Amanda? I think that Jenna Ortega is cheating a little bit, respectfully.

And I'm a huge Jenna Ortega fan, but we all know that these movies are surfing the Wednesday wave. Not to you. Not to you, Sean, but to everyone else. And I'm happy for her. X and Scream were released before Wednesday took over Netflix. Sure. But

Jenna Ortega is a household name. Isn't that crazy? Which is great. And like all the kids are goth again. Did you know that that's back? It's like, or like fake goth. They're Wednesday goth.

And that's wonderful. It's important to, you know, explore different cultures. They were already deadpan, but now they're goth deadpan. But I just, I think it's a, I don't think that these are the breakthrough performance.

Okay. Okay. That's what I would say. So then who do you lean? I agree. I did think Tenakweto was very good. And in a movie that I also did not really understand. No, that's not, that's not true.

And there's another category where we will talk about Black Panther, Wakanda forever. But he was great. He's my pick right now. Okay. I thought he was by far the best part of that movie. There were two options for me. Okay. I mean, I love looking at Diego Calva, but I really love...

I mean, Teno Querta and Tussauds and Beirut. They're the two. They're the two. And I'm going to go with her. I'm going to go with Tussauds and Beirut in The Woman King. I mean, it's really hard to be in a movie with Viola Davis and be somehow as compelling and also as good as Viola Davis is. I just, I don't know.

I was really shocked by that performance. I did not see it coming. Everything about The Woman King was a shock to me. Every single thing. I didn't expect the movie to become her movie either. That was the other thing. I didn't either. I was surprised when it, you know,

it kind of hard pivots into her story for the second act she goes off into that yeah she's wonderful I would be happy with that as well I do also want to honorable mention

and just say that I was texting about Sophie Cowher who is the the hot cellist in Tar this weekend she's so good

she's so good she's so good and also talk about going head to head with Cate Blanchett and kind of destabilizing Cate Blanchett. Or at least, you know, purposefully.

Like that's the point of the character. They're similar parts, actually. Yeah. So she's really good. I think the thing I love about that performance is, I mean, you know, I don't know how many times you guys have seen Tar, but it's, every time I see it, it just gets funnier and funnier.

Yeah. And just, just her eating that meal the first time. It's the cucumber salad and then she eats the, yeah,

the full. So good. And then just how she totally, like, turns heel on her when they get to New York. Beautiful stuff. So, it's just, she totally like turned heel on her when they get to new york oh beautiful so it's just she's wonderful in that movie but i'm i mean tuso and beto is a shocking movie presence yeah like that person can she's a movie star um it's a bigger job yeah she's a bigger job teno chihuahua is the same thing. I watched that movie,

and we're going to talk about erotics later on, but just... Oh, I can't wait. I fell in love with both these people. Yeah, he's got it. He's really got it. He's got it. All right, so Tuzu Mbedo is our winner. Congratulations to her.

We look forward to seeing her in many more films in the future. Hey, can I ask a related question? Certainly. Because I don't know if I've heard you guys talk about this. What happened with The Woman King? I mean, I

have my own theory. I will tell you what it is before... I mean, I'm not shocked by it, but given what the dearth of movies to be nominated to, to pick for best picture. I know that it's a Victor mature movie. I've said it many times.

I know that a movie like this would never in, in real life or in the olden days of five years ago, be a best picture nominee. And yet what it's terms of endearment and loincloth. Yes. Uh, we did, we just talked about it last week a little bit with Van Lathan, who I think was really more reflecting on the fact that sometimes when a movie like this does not get recognized,

that members of the creative black community just look at each other and be like, they don't get us. That was kind of his take, and that this was an example of that. I just think that's the wrong way to feel. I just think that that is just the wrong way to feel. Wait, was he speaking for them, or was he speaking as a member of that. I just think that's the wrong way to, I just think that that is just the wrong way to feel. Wait, was he speaking for them or was he speaking as a member of that group of people? I think he was just kind of reflecting on an attitude

that maybe he has seen expressed. I don't want to misquote him on that. Yeah, it's been expressed. It's been, I get it, but this is not, this is not what, I don't think that's what this is. When Amanda and I talked about it on the show originally,

we both saw it at a press screening and we're like, what a great fun movie. Like a very kind of uncomplicated, there is a lot of complicated ideas in the film and there is some controversy baked into the kind of

historicity of the movie. But it felt like you said, like a kind of an old conventional Hollywood epic. And I liked that about it. And I thought the performances were great. You know, my speculation is that

Sony is not as well suited as some other studios to position a movie like that in the campaigns. And that's just a guess and I don't want to cast dispersions on Sony because I don't know.

But they don't often have as many contenders as some of these other studios do these days. All these studios are out of gas. They don't know what to do with an Oscar campaign anymore. I'm just gonna say it

I mean except for A24 but that's another story like A24 won every award they are now the biggest studio in Oscarville yes it's amazing what they've become

it's truly remarkable good for them I mean do you have any other thoughts about Woman King no I mean it just seems like the campaign either

was not together or wasn't even as much of a goal i mean you have talked about this many times sean but it's baffling to me i think the woman king just became available on netflix like a week or two ago stop it no i'm serious it wasn't it still was not available on netflix during like the nominations voting that was a mistake yeah which was a huge mistake it just okay so they need to be directing that anger at the studio.

Yeah. I don't know who makes that call how much power Netflix has in that negotiation versus Sony. Wow. That is amazing. I feel pretty strongly

that if they put that movie up in January it would be a different story because it's been number one on Netflix for two weeks ever since it went live. Of course, it's been the number one movie on the service

because it's a fun movie that people like. It's so good. Really good. It's such a good time. Yeah, it's weird. I mean, to me, it's been the number one movie on the service because it's a fun movie that people like really good it's such a good time yeah it's weird i mean to me it's not it's by far it's not my favorite movie of the year it's not even in my top 10 but it's a very kind of obvious oscar movie that would frankly solve a lot of the academy's problems and we may walk away with like a you know very unrepresentative set of winners this year so we'll see see what happens. All right, let's go to the next category. Wait, unrepresentative meaning what?

Meaning there may be no black winners? I mean, we don't have to win every year. That's not how it should work, right? I mean, I just don't... What about no black filmmakers represented? That's a different... Okay, that's different. But I also think, you know,

we can talk about Jordan Peele later. We'll save this for Jordan Peele later. Yes, we will. But I don't feel like the woman king... I don't think Gina Prince-Bythewood was robbed of a Best Director nomination. I don't think that Viola... I mean, I would have voted for Viola Davis,

but I don't know. These things are so random. I just... I think the point that you're making is that if we're picking 10 movies and we're trying to show the totality of what Hollywood and international cinema creates, it's reasonable to expect a movie like The Woman King

being a potential contender, and clearly it did not get there. Yes. I mean, I don't know. I have very complicated mixed feelings i feel i feel for every for every black person who is mad at the academy for this but i just feel like this is this is a thing that is just gonna it's always gonna happen to some movie and it sucks that it happened to this one um I mean, it also happened to Nope

and Black Panther Wakanda Forever, and your mileage may vary on all of those movies, but it actually was a surprisingly strong year both commercially and critically for mainstream Black filmmakers. So it's more setting aside Till and the conversation around that film. So it's an issue.

It's an issue that is not going away. I mean, but I just feel like I can partially explain these things. I cannot justify them. I just feel like I understand.

I'm a little baffled by Nope. But if you really think about it, I mean, I know so many people who like, do not like that movie.

Amanda is. Who were baffled by it. It is a genre picture. It's like three different genres. And the family story may not be family enough in the way that Everything Everywhere All at Once is.

I think you hit it. That's it. It's not sincere in that way. Yeah. I just think that its ideas are so much bigger than the things you're watching on screen necessarily.

And Jordan Peele is operating... You know, you make a genre movie about racism in which, you know, all of the terms

are pretty clear. I think people can kind of get on board with that. And then you make two very idiosyncratic, deeply mysterious, philosophical movies that don't neatly connect up

to the moment we're in, but clearly are commenting on and responding to. I think that kind of loses people a little bit. And it's a thriller, and it's kind of a science fiction movie. I don't know.

It's very easy. You've got to remember, also, these people are still... I don't know. It's very easy. You got to remember also these people are still, I don't know what the average age is still, but it's pretty high. And I think that all of these contingencies, these blocks,

these factions, it's just very easy for a movie like Nope to kind of get passed over. I have nothing to add. It's fine with me. More for me. More Jordan Peele films for me.

If people don't get on board with that, I don't know what to tell you. Okay, let's do the next category because we've got quite a few more to add. It's fine with me. More for me. More Jordan Peele films for me. If people don't get on board with that, I don't know what to tell you. Okay, let's do the next category because we've got quite a few more to go. Best Cameo.

This is a rich collection of mostly white people, frankly, but famous white people. Jessica Chastain, Armageddon Time. Judd Hirsch,

The Fablemans. That's a cameo in my opinion. I know that everybody wanted that performance to be nominated for Best Supporting Actor. He's got one scene,ablemans. That's a cameo, in my opinion. I know that everybody wanted that film, that performance to be nominated for Best Supporting Actor. He's got one scene, two scenes.

It's fine. Spike Jonze in Babylon. Appreciated your addition of this. Val Kilmer in Top Gun Maverick. David Lynch in The Fablemans. I hope that's not a spoiler for anybody who has not yet seen The Fablemans. Yo-Yo Ma in Glass Onion,

a Knives Out mystery. Tobey Maguire in Babylon. Debatable. Samantha Morton, she said. Chloe Sevigny, Bones and All, one of my favorites. And Ben Stiller for Bros, which did make me laugh, honestly. I don't know if... You remember Ben Stiller showing up at the end of Bros, Wesley? I do.

I'll just leave it at that. I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring for... Well, there's two picks. There's two true contenders in my mind here. The two contenders are David Lynch and Val Kilmer. I agree. I agree with this.

I would just add Ethan Hawke to the glass onion cameo situation. Can you explain that to me, though? Because I don't understand it. Why he was there? Yeah. I mean, why? I don't know. Why is, I don't know.

You got me. But like when he showed up, I was like, this is sick. Ethan Hawke is in this movie. And then he sprayed binocular in someone's mouth and then he disappeared. I love that. It was a real, it was a real Rian Johnson flex. I like that addition. It was a good joke.

It was a, it was a, I don't know if it represented say what david lynch represents the fablemans or or you know which is to say like no yeah the shot of vinegar at the end of that movie you know or the the way that val kilmer like the emotional ballast that he provides top gun maverick val kilmer yeah it should be about the only thing i'll say, we were, before Wesley came on the Zoom, we were talking about the Oscar prognostication. I'm really sorry. And I'm sorry, Wesley,

I just feel like I'm letting you down. But we were talking about the outside chance that the Fablemans, like, might win. And the reason they would win is like a less effective version, Wesley,

of what you were saying with Coda, which is you watch that last scene, you watch the David Lynch cameo, then you watch the shot adjust up. Sorry, major spoilers, but I don't know what to tell people. The horizon line is set. And people are like,

well, what a charming movie, The Fablemans, you know? So that cameo does have major power in that movie to kind of set people off on their way. But Val Kilmer is where my heart is as well. Val Kilmer it is. In 100 meters, turn right. Actually, no, turn left.

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Let's go back to the arc of history. Best kid performance. They used to give this award out. The best juvenile performance at the Academy Awards. And they need to bring it back, goddammit. Because there are so many young performers. I don't like it. I don't like it.

I don't think we need it. I mean, but do you like it when the kid wins the Oscar? I do. When a nine-year-old it when the kid wins the Oscar? I do. When a nine-year-old goes up there and they're like, I did it, Mom! That was really exciting for me when Anna Paquin won. Yeah. And I was like slightly younger. But, you know, now it seems like we could have our own category.

Okay. I don't like it. I don't like ghettoizing. I don't like ghettoizing. The children? Any performer, no. Okay. I think everybody should be considered equal.

Okay, let me ask you this. Mm-hmm. Should we do non-gendered awards? I think we should. I think that we should know the truth about our tastes. Mm-hmm. I think we, I mean, I've been thinking a lot about this. And I just want to remove my personal feelings from like what is

what is just in a way and i just think i mean i look at the i look at all of the gendered categories now and i do kind of cringe a tiny little bit wow that is how that's how my thinking on this is shifted i i think the grammys have done a great great job of somehow weathering the skepticism of what happens when certain... There is never a dust-up when I don't even know what the numbers are on who wins the non-major categories that no longer have a gender. I don't know what people... Nobody's like, oh my God, Ed Sheeran again. I don't think that's what's happening. I think that it's a really good mix of people who win

without the gender distinctions. And you don't even think about their not being there until somebody points it out. And I think the thing about the Oscars is, you know, I was talking to somebody who's a who's really a big tony's person and the tony's i think are going to do it before anybody does um and that person was making a case not invalidly that you're going to lose four awards every year that's four people who don't get tony because of this. Now, I think that the reason for the evolution

in our thinking about these questions of gender might make that sacrifice worth it. But I just think it has to happen. And I think the thing that everybody's worried about with the Academy Awards is, well, if we do it this way, and let's say there are 10 best actor, best acting nominees,

or best lead acting nominees, it's going to be 10 men. I don't believe that. I think this year, for instance, it would have been like seven women. I agree. I think that this year is a massive anomaly, though, and that there normally would be seven there normally don't disagree with you,

but that's because there's just a lot better parts written for men. And that has been true for a hundred years. The movies, I think, but that's not, but that should not be the cat or go on Amanda. I was just going to say, I,

you know, that is, that's a very common concern that's expressed when talking about melding the two categories is, you know, will, will women be nominated and as as we run these things now i think i don't know it could be a concern but like we just need to rethink the entire awards anyway so it's like it's broken 45 different ways so

let's remake it i agree with you wesley like it's It's just hard to make sense of it or feel not slightly embarrassed long-term about dividing them. And I think the point about just giving fewer, frankly, famous people awards is an issue when you're thinking about an awards ceremony. But we have suggested some new awards that they could add to an awards show. You know what I mean? There are just other ways to do it, and you got to rethink the whole thing. And I think it's an important part of it, but I don't know. If we want to fix them, let's fix them. So this is a very interesting conversation, and maybe we will get into it more deeply in the aftermath of this year's telecast, because I think that if the ratings are not strong this year,

and ABC takes a hard look at whether or not they want to continue their relationship with the Academy and they decide not to, I think what you might see is this full-blown acceptance in the culture that award shows are half or even a quarter as meaningful as they were to the culture at large. And when that happens, that's when they'll be more comfortable making big change because it won't be this desperate grasp for the past. The independent spirit awards actually already did this. And this year we'll see it in a couple of weeks. We'll see what non-gender categories look like. And it's interesting because I completely agree with Amanda's sentiments.

I think that it's very manageable to have 10 nominees and lead and supporting categories. It is not manageable to just take two awards out of the show and not replace them. They have to find a way to create some sort of mechanism that's like they have to do a cameo award, they have to do a

best first feature, they have to do a breakthrough performance. If they don't start adding that stuff, they actually will lose interest because there's not enough races to support people's interests. I mean, it's like the economy of the Academy Awards that we participated in deeply is horse race. It's campaigns. It's, you know, these big stories that are being told with a lot of money on the line. So there's the sort of like emotional reality of the way that we grant creative prizes.

And then there's the practical reality of what this means from a financial and commercial perspective. And that is going to be taken into consideration if they make a choice like that. But what if we think about it the other way? Like, what would that change mean for the industry? Right? Like, what would it disincentivize them

from making the few movies they already make with people, like, movie stars in them or, you know, character-driven movies to the extent that we even get those anymore? I just wonder what conclusion the people who make our movies would take from that decision to the extent that there even would be a consequence. And I think there probably would be in some way. There could be. There could be. Fewer than 25% of women direct mainstream Hollywood features.

Until things like that change, until the leadership of the studios changes, it's not going to change that much. At the prize level, that's not the thing that dictates the power. That's the cherry on top of the power.

I think until there's a much more radical systemic change, which is really hard, and we're actually in the backlash phase of that. We're not in the evolutionary phase anymore. We were in the evolutionary phase two, three, four, five years ago. I feel like there's actually something very radically different happening right now

where people are like, we got to cancel all these shows that nobody watches anymore. We got to move everything onto fast TV so we can make some money against these shows. Oh, I thought you were going a different direction. Okay. I hear what you're saying with respect to that. I also think that we're at a really interesting, we have spent the last, I would say, seven or eight years at a moral inflection point with regard to politics of what it means to give these things out in the first place right and the the academy changing who's in the academy expanding its membership the reckoning the you know and it seems to only be at the academy awards which gives you a

sense of like what this show has come to mean culturally. Because even people who don't watch the show know who's nominated and who's not nominated. And they get to live on the internet and lambast the Academy for its wrongheadedness, its racism, its sexism. And I think that where we are is at the beginning of the future. And I think it shouldn't matter

whether the show is on ABC or on Starz. I think that... Oh, dear me. Listen, I'm just saying. I enjoy the Starz movie library. I really do. You love Starz. I mean, Julia and Sean did it.

Why can't the Academy? It's good enough for them. But that's a good example of something that was good that no one saw because we're not fucking stars you want that academy awards i'm i'm just saying but the the i just think that it's it i kind of the gender category thing they have to accept the consequences of what it would mean to do it but they have to do it and like i think at some point hopefully maybe i'll be naive about this um it'll change it'll like they will the there will it will catch up and there'll be six six to four five to five you know one way or the other what an optimistic point of view

i am a much more i'm not saying it's going to be like that immediately and then there are going to be some years where it's like nine dudes and a woman you right i mean there'll probably be several of those years but i just think that for the sake of what we're because the thing we're not actually talking about is who doesn't get who won't feel comp you know comfortable submitting themselves for an academy award because there's no category for them. So, I mean, I don't know what you do with your gender non-binary and your trans people. They have to pick one right now or they don't submit. There's going to be a performance that is going to really challenge. It's going to be seen by a lot of people. It's going to really challenge this. That is inevitable in the next couple of years. And when that happens, we will revive

that conversation. In the meantime, we're giving out fake awards to children. I just want to let you know that's something that is still happening here. All right, let's do it. We got to move fast on some of these because you guys are going to need like 20 minutes on Nope, I can already tell. Okay. No, I actually feel like Wesley already nailed it, but that's a whole other story. Frankie Corio, After Sun. Banks Rapetta and Jalen Webb for Armageddon Time. I'm pairing a couple of these. Gabriel LaBelle for The Fablemans, Mason Thames and Madeline McGraw for The Black Phone,

and Rand Sarlacc for Hit the Road. A movie that we never talked about on this show, but that is so good, Jafar Banahi's movie that was really, really, really strong. And I don't know why we never talked about it.

I think maybe it came out in the spring. You weren't here. I still haven't seen it. I'm sorry. I watched it late. Anyway, he's really good it's wonderful young boy it's wonderful great movie um okay i feel like it's frankie corio here i just i'm gonna put that out there you don't think so she's really winning in the movie you don't think so yeah she's great but

the person who blew me away gabriel labelle yeah he's quite He's only in half of the movie. I don't know if that should be held against him. No. What do you think? He was wonderful. I just also want to throw in that I literally thought Banks Rapetto was one of James Gray's children for at least 30 minutes of watching Armageddon Time, which is extraordinary in its own way.

That is a performance. Okay. Let me ask you about this yeah because in this category we have frankie corio playing a young charlotte wells we have banks ripetta playing a young james gray and we have gabriel labelle playing a young steven spielberg right yeah now who better to be coached by than the person that you are playing should someone be rewarded for that? Should they have something taken away from them?

I don't know. I'm just asking questions here. If that's how you're going, Sean, then there's only one winner yet again, and it's Gabriel LaBelle. Like, okay, hey, Gabe, your job is to play the most important American filmmaker of the last 60 years.

Go! But here's the thing. Okay, in fairness to Gabriel LaBelle, who I thought was terrific in this movie, he's also being coached by arguably the best director of children in the history of movies. That is true.

Why is that? He still managed to distinguish himself. He's still wonderful. I just want Like, he still managed to distinguish himself. All right, all right. Like, he's still wonderful. Like, I just want to say something about this kind of part. This kind of part is usually a cipher. This person has never, the only other person I can think of who had this job and did a great and was just wonderful at it

is Seth Green playing Woody Allen. Oh, yeah. Is that Radio Days? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so funny you mention that. I mean, this is the first person to manage that as far as I can

remember since 1986 or 87. So, I don't know. I just think this guy is wonderful. No, let's give it to Frankie Correo, who is also wonderful. I want to point out. What are you talking about? Frankie Correo rules.

Frankie Correo has been a delight on the award circuit. So, you know, if you want, like, I can be worked like every other voter, you know? So I'll go with Frankie Correo. Okay. I'm going with Frankie Correo as well. Even though I loved your impassioned defense of Gabriella Bell. I feel like we have to give After Sun something after not being as kind to it as we, as others have been over the years.

Okay. Best casting. This is another award that I don't understand why it doesn't exist. I agree with this. This I agree with. Here are the contenders.

Barbarian. Confess Fletch. EO. For casting all those donkeys. Yeah. Those are good. I actually thought about adding and should we just do

a best donkey category for 2023? It's Jenny versus the many EOs. Right, those are good. I actually thought about adding in, should we just do a best donkey category for 2023? It's Jenny versus the many Eos. Right. Hustle, the Adam Sandler film, and the menu. Okay. What do we like here? I would, I mean, I guess it doesn't, nevermind.

I just think whoever found Tennoch Huerta deserves something. Whoever, I mean, not like he was invisible. He's been in many things. But whoever just

thought to, like, give him that job, bravo. I agree. That's true. Also, the options we have. The young child

that they found for the end of Black Panther Wakanda Forever 2. Oh, yeah. I thought he was nominated. I don't really feel

like he had enough to do. You took him off? I didn't take him off. I was going to talk about him when we get to endings. Okay. Well. I thought he was nominated. I don't really feel like he had enough to do. You took him off? I didn't take him off. I was going to talk about him when we get to endings. Okay. Well, I thought that we might be able to award him, and he was really cute. He'll get an honorary alternative Oscar from Amanda Dobbins, specifically.

Great. I agree with what you're saying, Wesley, and I would also, I guess the casting decisions were made and Black Panther won, but I would say there are some casting decisions that held the movie back. Anyway. Ooh, speak on that. No, I'm not going to speak on it. No one. Yes, you should. No, I just, I don't.

Letitia Wright couldn't carry the movie. That's really the point. And it's no one's fault. But she was already there. It's not her fault. It's no one's fault. No. It's not her fault. It's no one's fault. It's a lot. They rewrote a movie

in six months that had been five years in the making and Letitia Wright was not built for that in my opinion. We talked about that

on the show. Didn't bother me but I knew exactly what Sean meant when he came back and said there's a giant Chadwick Boseman side to this movie.

This is a bit of a tongue-in-cheek category, but I think that the menu is actually extremely well-cast, whether the movie worked for you or did not. Did not, but it is well-cast. But the patrons of the restaurant is a very smart collection of actors, some of whom you know, some of whom you do not know. And that's

what that's what i'm going with yeah i'm it's of these the most well hustle is you know it's like that's a movie where you've got you know athletes acting yes so anytime you can make that happen well do you do you want to make a bid for that i mean i think that the performance that they get out of athletes is pretty amazing for that movie. Kind of an underrated aspect of that movie. I think that, like, the job, like, I think they talk about children and animals. I'm going to say athletes, period. Like, they don't, they're terrible. I mean.

Yes. Historically bad at movies. They're typically terrible. Yeah. And in Saturday Night Live and everywhere else there has to act. Yeah. I mean, I just, I don't know, anytime I can watch something and be like, oh, these people are actually quite, they're good at the thing that it is they've been hired to do. And there's like some life in there and there's some, there's like experience.

These people are living in these characters. I don't know. I think that that's the harder thing to do among these five things. You convinced me. Hustle? Also, why is Barbarian here? Sean put it on the list.

I know, Sean. I put Confess Fletch on the list. I thought it was funny. There's a brilliant, there's a stroke of genius in the casting of Barbarian by having Bill Skarsgård represent the nice guy and Justin Long represent the shitheel.

It's just an incredibly clever, the movie doesn't work if you don't have that idea of inverting their person their personas so I liked it I also like uh Georgina Campbell the lead of the film but that's a whole other story I just do not enjoy I did not I did not I mean I didn't I just didn't believe that movie at all that's the thing I should not there's no movie once she once there's no key in the box the shit is over and to have a black woman do that no excuse me no and in detroit i have so many issues with this movie it makes me so mad both logistically and i i mean i guess ethically i won't quite go morally although you can get me there if you try oh anyway go on it's a good point but i love that movie so i'm not compelled uh hustle is our winner yay that's good i'm i'm pleased with that quality film

best stunt action sequence again another category that we're just... This is tough. We're just fucking up so bad by not having this at the Academy Awards. How much fun would... This is a no-brainer. Yeah. Regular folk have reliving these great scenes

from movies. Okay, here are the nominees. There are quite a few. The surgery from Ambulance. One of my favorite moments in the movies in 2022. If you've seen the movie, you know what I'm talking about.

The bridge save from RRR. This was one of like four or five contenders for this one there are so many that we could have chosen the whole movie does feel like there's a you know the

battle in the forest near the end there's of course the great animal cage cage raid that happens on the big party there's a number of moments you could have picked here the opening raid for

Athena which is a film that didn't really work for me ultimately but has one of the most breathtaking opening 10 minutes of a movie that I've seen in a long time. There's the Berserker Raid and the Northman, the long tracking shot.

There is the whale strike, I'll just say. Effectively the final, the third act of Avatar, The Way of Water. There's the Hive Slaughter and Day Shift, which is a movie that we did not talk about on this podcast that I did not like, but that has one incredible action sequence in part because it's directed by a former stunt coordinator and those movies think of extraction always have really great action sequences it's a jamie foxx movie

about vampires one really great i wanted to shout that out and then it's not the plane is the pilot from top gun maverick i mean i there's only one there's only one. There's only one. Maverick. Of course. Oh, whoa. What? You're saying RRR? Yeah.

Okay, I'm open with that. I don't think it's the only one because I named another one, but I'm happy to go on that journey with you. The hardest I laughed in a movie was the surgery. I'll just put that in from Ambulance. That was when I was like, movies! Let's go! I don't think it should. I mean, if I could not watch the whole thing without my fingers over my eyes, it cannot count.

Okay. All right. I really could not bear to watch them pull that kid's... I just couldn't do it. It was really tough. I like the chutzpah to do it. I thought it was like, I wonder if that's the first thing,

I wonder if that's the first beat in the screenplay when they're trying to figure out how to do this thing. Because nothing else makes any sense in this movie to me. I had a good time watching it, but at every turn I was like, oh, come on. It's completely incoherent, but it's magnificent.

I lean towards RRR here. Does that hurt your feelings, Amanda? No, I already said that I would walk with Wesley on that path. Okay. So, you know. But let's talk about the Top Gun sequence, because it is simultaneously uninteresting and extremely exciting i i just i was riveted this was my favorite movie of the year if not the best movie of the year and i do tend to zone out during some of these sequences when things get like too fantastical

or the choreography isn't quite grounded enough and you know that that thing you're wesley talking about where like if you're too stressed out you don't want to watch it and i was just on a thrill ride with maverick so i mean also you know they were flying planes i don't know if you've heard that flying real planes yeah i think that's fair i i mean i'm open but i think it's fine we're gonna do other Top Gun we've it's fine can I ask a question though about this category yes how much of it how much of the achievement should be what happens in camera that's a wonderful question um I think most of the time we wouldn't really be able to reward something in camera whereas with maverick

a lot of it is in camera more than all of these except for the northman the northman is in camera the northman is that that's the only one that's like if you're talking about your as amanda would say your athletic masculine one-er filmmaking. The Northman is like that was hard. That was hard to do. This is not about degree of difficulty. It's about how did it make you feel? I think it should be. I mean, I think it should be both. I actually am thinking about this now

because RRR, I don't know what's real and what's not. I just know like my blood pressure went up and some other things happened to me. But I think doing it in camera is a real achievement and i would love to hear our filmmakers of the world tell me that i'm being absurd um because you know i love avatar the way of the water i do i love the whale that that whale everything about the whale information that storyline. I couldn't believe how moved I was by that. Talk about chutzpah.

Like, a whole subplot given from the point of view of a computer-generated idea in the middle of a computer-generated idea. It's pretty crazy. It isn't even, I don't know. It's just really, really ballsy. And I'm a big avatar of a water lover no there's no shame in that i um it's the best part of the film too which is it's a way to reward that i i think ultimately i'm i i think i'm with amanda i think

that the most i was like wow because the thing that the thing about top gun maverick that sequence is you know exactly what's coming. They literally are practicing it. They have met, they've diagrammed it for you on screen. It's one of the first things you see when you return to the Top Gun. It is.

Here's the mission. Here's how we're going to do it. And then they do it. And of course, there are some twists and turns, but for the most part, it's predictable. And you're there.

And you're just clutching the armchair. Like you can't believe how exciting and how tense it is. So to me, I And you're there. And you're just clutching the armchair. Like, you can't believe how exciting and how tense it is. So, to me, I think you're right about that. I can't believe you're going to convert me. All right. Because I really do believe it has to happen. I think I would love... Reach out to Sean and Amanda listeners,

filmmakers, and tell, like, just speak about whether my question about whether or not it like how much of the sequence is post-production versus how much

of the sequence is happening you know some mostly like you know on the set um matters

in terms of evaluating what a great action sequence it's a good question and maybe if we I'd like to do like a a stunt episode soon maybe John Wick 4

would be an opportunity for that actually to talk about in camera and why that matters. Anyway, let's go to the next category because we're running long. Best ending. Here are the contenders. Babylon.

Black Panther, Wakanda forever. Men, which no one will vote for but me. The Northmen. And White Noise. Amandaanda what do you think i was gonna tell you that you were a coward if you didn't nominate babylon but i would like for you to now defend it wesley where are you on the on the on the montage i love a montage sure but the one at the end of Babylon I love a dismount montage I think Six Feet Under's finale is one of the greatest things

ever to happen to this planet this I just I think it was cheating I think it was cheating I love Damien Chazelle. I don't know where he is in his mind.

I don't like how the industry is basically like... I mean, we're going to be sad for Jordan Peele a little bit later, but I'm sad for Damien Chazelle as well. Because I don't love Babylon. I think it's bloated. I don't know why we're going back to tell this story or tell a story along these lines but he is good

at his job and I don't know. I mean the montage didn't bother me but it didn't exhilarate or like thrill me either. We talked a little bit about its meaning or one of its interpretations of its meaning last week on the show. I don't really feel the need to do another

disquisition on that. But, I am really only interested in directors that are fearless. And that's something I've kind of come to realize. It's the movies that I want to see. That's why I love him.

Yes. Especially as I get older and I'm like, I only have so many more movies I'm going to be able to see before I die. Like, there's a long list of movies I'd like to see.

My watch list is currently 2,100 movies that have been, for all the films that have been made. You'll get through it. It's fine. I will not. And so with new films and I watch so many new films, I'm just so bored by so much that I watch. And I was never bored in Babylon. And is it bloated? Of course, of course, of course, it's bloated. It's three hours and 12 minutes. It's a period piece about the origins of Hollywood. So is RRR, but I would not describe that movie as bloated at all.

I would, honestly. And I liked RRR quite a bit, but to me, it was bloated. And, you know, both of those movies are high on their own supply, you know, and I like movies like that. I like movies that are kind of fascinating with their own audacity. But can a movie that's high on its own supply making you high and babylon didn't really do that for me um it did not transfer its self-exhilaration to to me enough and this is i mean again i i love it i like it more than i don't like it and i really love love Damien Chazelle. And that's,

it's just kind of that simple for me. In terms of these five movies, are you, I want to be clear about the ending of White Noise. Do you mean the credit sequence? Yeah. Okay. Not the,

not the conclusion of the novel. Yeah, that they literally transposed onto film. I, I, I found that simultaneously exhilarating and embarrassing um the northman uh the fight sequence is that what we're talking about the volcano battle yeah i mean of these five movies i think the the nerve of babylon even though i'm not crazy about it um yeah yeah

let's go no no That wasn't a vote. I'm just going through the, like, Wakanda forever. What are we talking about? The baby. Surprise. The son. Oh, you didn't like that? That's an Easter egg. I was like, that's the movie I want to see.

Yeah, fine. Men. Speak, Sean. Again, similarly audacious. I think, I'm not sure if it's totally effective similarly audacious. I think, I'm not sure if it's totally effective the more that I think about it, but I definitely was not able to predict

where that movie was going. It's an ending. It is an ending. It is like a conclusive, here's my point kind of ending. And your mileage really may vary on that depending on how you feel about grotesquery. But I thought it worked.

I walked out and I was like, he went for it. But I thought it worked. I walked out and I was like, he went for it. So I really appreciate that. And I look for that when I think about this. You're all being overruled. It's Babylon. Thank you for playing. This is my one.

This is my one. Please accept my point of view. I'll actually let you guys get whatever you want for the rest of this. Oh, I don't play like that. I don't want that. Don't do that. Then I will fight hard for everything I believe in for the rest of this exercise here. Don't play like that. I don't want that. Don't do that.

Then I will fight hard for everything I believe in for the rest of this episode. Okay. Good. I left the Glenn Close Memorial It's Time Oscar open and of course Amanda filled it.

And with whom did you fill it? Tom Cruise. What are we doing? He's never going to win a real one. Amen. Yeah. He's very special to all of us. It's as simple as that.

He spent 30 minutes talking about it. I mean, can I ask a question just to go back to this Tom Cruise? Sure. What does his future look like? I mean, let's say, I mean, he's 70 years old. He is still playing Ethan Hunt. And at this point, probably still playing Maverick. Mm-hmm. And at this point, probably still playing Maverick. And some hotshot young filmmaker is like,

Tom, I wrote this part for you. It requires you to just sit in a chair for 45 minutes and do nothing but talk about your memories of some long ago time. And the screenplay is good. Like, what on earth? Like, why would he turn that down? It's got Oscar written all over it. Well, I still think he might turn it down

because I think he's in a very single definition phase of his life. But we're talking 10 years from now. Sure, but this is the Glenn Close Award because even if he does it, he could still not win because the Academy always lets us down, you know? It's true. It's time, but they don't give you the It's Time Award,

so we're giving it to you. All right, well, let's just clear it up right now. Congratulations, Tom. You did now. Congratulations, Tom. You did it. Congratulations to Tom Cruise on his Lifetime Achievement Award from the Academy of me, Amanda, and Wesley.

Let's go to the six proper Academy Awards categories that we are mimicking. This is the end of the new categories. Let's start with Best Supporting Actor. Here are the nominees. Andre Brouwer, She Said.

Timothee Chalamet, Bones and All. Justin Long, Barbarian. Marc Maron to Leslie. Theo Rossi, Emily the Criminal. There's only one winner here for me. Tell me. Theo Rossi. Good.

I was going to say so too. I put him in. He's fantastic. Great performance. Such chemistry. Holy cow. He should fantastic. Great performance. Such chemistry. Holy cow. He should be a real Oscar nominee. Yeah.

I just, that movie did not work for me. I found the ending appalling. I mean, the ending is a criminal. I mean, it just, I just think

that that guy is thrilling to watch and natural. I mean, I love when people give me whiffs of 1977. Yeah. And this guy has that. He's sexy. He's not conventionally a handsome person, but he's really handsome anyway.

You don't know where he's from, but he's from someplace. I mean, you know where he's from in the movie, but like you don't know where this guy is from in life. He's, you know, I mean, there's just so many interesting things going on with him. You don't know what his background is racially or ethnically. And he just has,

he can act. I don't know. He's fantastic. I support it. That's a great pick. He reminds me of Dustin Hoffman in Straight Time, that character. That's who I thought of

when I was watching it. That's a good one. Done. Theo Rossi, congratulations. Best Supporting Actress, Dolly DeLeon, Triangle of Sadness, Hong Chao,

The Menu, Lashana Lynch, The Woman King, Guslaji Malanda, Saint-Omer kristin seward crimes of the future i previously referenced this category for me it has to be guslaji malanda like i just no question for all of her work uh giving testimony yes yeah um i won't argue this is a stacked category full of it is the best we've got like It is. It's the best kind of joy we've got. Hong Chao is nominated for the menu

except she's nominated for the whale. But like, don't think for a second that anyone like watched the whale and was like, oh, great.

Now we have it. It was just convenient for them. That's the campaign that got run. I just saw showing up the new Kelly Riker movie

and Hong Chao was in that too and I was like, god damn. Just put Hong Chao in in that too and I was like god damn just put Hong Chao in all your movies. In everything put her in everything. She's so good. It's actually really exciting that she's now like a person in the firmament because that means she's just going to be

more and more seen. I'm down with Guzlaji Melinda. The film does not work without her performance and I think if we don't really love the kind of buttressing framing device, we do like what's right in the center of that movie, which is her. So, you good with that, Wesley?

I do want to talk about Lashana Lynch for one second. Yeah, she's wonderful. Shoot. Whoa. Oh, man. Just fantastic. Where did she come from? Anyway, good job, Guselagi,

Melanda. You were fantastic. Okay, best actor. Slim Pickens, here, in the best actor race. wow. This is what we got?

Okay. Some of these are just me, just vamping. Sure, yeah. Including Jake Gyllenhaal for his performance in Ambulance, screaming about

his destroyed cashmere sweater. Daniel Kaluuya in Nope. Jack Loudon in Benediction, another film we have not spent much time on, but it's very good. Ralph Fiennes in The Menu, and Adam Sandler in Hustle.

I would like to talk about Benediction for a second. Shoot. It was one of my favorite movies from last year. I did not have the good fortune of seeing it when it came out. I don't think anybody saw it. It's a Terrence Davies movie. It's one of his most personal movies.

I actually forgot it was, it was around until my friend, my good friend, Eric told me that I had to see it. Um, I think that everybody in that movie is great. Jack Loudon. I would,

I, I love Daniel Kaluuya and Nope. I love what he's doing. I love everything about that movie. But Jack Loudon in Benediction is my win. I'm sad to say that I never made it to Benediction. It's on my list. I really want to see it.

I am a huge Jack Loudon fan. Slow Horses has. What else has he been in? Well, he's in Slow Horses, the Apple show with Gary Oldman that's on its second season. Oh, yeah. Also, last time I checked, still with Saoirse Ronan, one of my favorite low-key power couples. So I'm really, yeah, I'm happy for them. Didn't know.

So I will seek this out and I would be happy to give it to him. Benedictine is very good. Terrence Davies, genius. Yep. I haven't liked a Terrence Davies movie in a while. And so that was good i i think i saw this at sundance in 2022 is that or 2021 is that possible and so it was kind of like off my radar and so we never spent any time on it on the show but that's a brilliant performance so i'm

down with that um i suspect that he is another person who will get a lot more famous in the next couple of years because slow horsesorses has a strong fandom and he's a very, very good actor with a famous partner. Okay, best actress. We've already talked about Viola Davis.

She, of course, is nominated here for The Woman King. My beloved Mia Goth for Pearl. Kiki Palmer for Nope, who I think was erroneously categorized

as the best supporting actress throughout this season. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Taylor Russell for Bones and All and Tang Wei for Decision to Leave. It's a pretty good category too.

Really good category. Um, come on. I mean, Viola Davis. There's just like, I'm not even going to pretend. I like these other four performers, especially Tang Wei. Um, Viola Davis.

I mean, she burns the movie down. She does. She's amazing. And it's, and it's very moving and the reveal, what you know is coming is still just like

an absolute punch. Ugh, it's so good. I mean, I was just going to say that like Kiki Palmer in Nope is the, is what stayed with me.

Um, I, and I loved very much and again, I just root for her in all walks of life but she's fantastic i love her um i'm really happy with viola davis no arguments i do want to just say that i think taylor russell is very special and uh you know wesley you and i were two of

i think 17 total people that enjoyed waves um and bring it up and uh she was phenomenal in that film as well and I look forward to great stuff from her and I thought actually Bones and All worked because of her for me

I agree and the way that the performance that she gives it's a hard sell I went to see Bones and All the day before Thanksgiving in Manioc in Philadelphia

Wesley Morris whoa I know really yes yeah I had a pretty good time Manioc where's the Manioc movie theater it's down by something that's either a river Philadelphia, Wesley Morris. Whoa, really? Yes. Oh my goodness. Yeah, I had a pretty good time. Manny Yunk. Yeah, there were-

Where's the Manny Yunk movie theater? It's down by something that's either a river or a train track. I don't know Philadelphia. You know, I was there with my in-laws. There were three other people in the theater, which I was surprised by. All hardcore Mark Rylance fans, I'm sure. Viola Davis is the winner of this category. Yay.

We have two more left. We're near the end. Best Director. Gina Prince-Bythewood for The Woman King. David Cronenberg, my homie for Crimes of the Future.

Park Chan-wook, Decision to Leave. Jordan Peele, Nope. Matt Reeves, The Batman. We haven't talked about The Batman.

Did you see The Batman, Wesley? I did not. I would have thought you would have had some opinions about it if you had. It took me five nights to watch it at home, Wesley, because it's almost three hours. And then at the end, I had to text Sean and Chris to ask them who the character was at the very end. And Sean wrote back, Amanda, that was the Joker.

So that was my experience of the Batman. I'll say proudly I enjoyed the film. I thought that Robert Pattinson looked very handsome in the suit. Sure. Half the time that he was wearing it.

Maybe the third of the time. That's one reason why the film is effective. Yeah. Miraculous Zoe Kravitz Catwoman performance. I think you would enjoy that, Wesley. I love her.

Yeah, she's beautiful. Yeah, she's great. Extraordinary production design, great action sequences, really good handle on the mythology of Batman. Good movie. I, you know, I get, once again, uncomplicatedly enjoyed it.

I know we are mired in this awful time of superhero stories and that we all have to complain about these things all the time. Superhero stories can be good. They are especially good when they feel untethered. Can you talk about Matt Reeves'

contribution to that excellence? Yeah, control of tone is like a really, really hard thing to pull off in these movies and especially because everybody

thinks that all superhero films need to be wink, wink, nod, nod, here's my joke. It's not a movie with jokes. It's a very serious,

hard-boiled crime film and it's very effectively done and it does not have the kind of brazen, self-serious, operatic nature of the Nolan films,

which I think in some cases work and in some cases do not. In fact, in just a few days, Wesley, Amanda, Chris, Bobby Wagner, and I will be recording a live watch-along

of the film The Dark Knight Rises, which is what happens when you lose control of the tone of your Batman movie. And also your life, apparently.

Yes. In my case. Yeah, I mean, I. Yes. In my case. Yeah, I mean, I hear that. I hear that. Okay. Well, I can't wait for that for one thing.

It'll be fun. It means you have to re-watch Dark Knight Rises to listen to it to make any sense of it. I don't want to, but okay. To me,

I think Park Chan-wook is my favorite of this category because he is the person who has the most control over his movie, the most sense of invention, the most sense of reimagination of stories past.

It's him kind of like speaking even to his kind of predilections in the past and his obsessions. It's a movie about obsession. All filmmakers are these obsessed types. You know, I thought there was an outside chance that he would be recognized in Best Director this year after we saw Decisional Leave.

And then it didn't even get nominated for Best International Feature, which was shocking to me. Can't believe it. But I think everyone here is worthy. I'm keeping my powder dry for Nope for the next category. So I'm just going to put that out there.

I just want to say something about Gina Prince-Bythewood. Excellent director of action sequences. Really knows how to keep the camera where it's supposed to be um and if i'm not i'm not this movie is the one of the most moving things about this movie is the action of the bodies and the way the camera is looking at these women's bodies and watching them in motion not even the fighting but the dancing yeah the you know the dancing and the the pump up scene oh my gosh the those are some of the most beautiful depictions of communal emotional harmony that i've ever seen. And there were these moments where I was looking at these

women being like, I don't know if I'm watching these characters or these actors, but there is some energy being transferred among these people. And that is the kind of energy that can only come out of people who have been made to feel comfortable and safe and connected to the person telling them what to do. And so I imagine her sets are really warm. They are places where actors feel like they can take risks if they can act. And I just think that every single thing that I loved about this movie, like, begins with her. And I don't think it's a perfect movie. I think that, you know, it's a little messy. But the control of tone is really interesting because she's working with two, three tones, right? the historical drama part, the mother-daughter melodrama part, and the comedy of John Boyega, who should have been a supporting actor. Um, all of that was wonderful,

and it all comes from her. That said, Sean, I'm with you. I would vote for Park Chan-wook. Um, I think what Jordan Peele is doing with Nope, um, I mean, I would vote for Park Chan-wook. I think what Jordan Peele is doing with Nope. I mean, I just, I would like to recognize, I would like to recognize Park Chan-wook. I love, you know, Cronenberg is going for it again. I love that. The movie's gross in the best possible way. Fun Cronenberg movie. Yeah. But I'm going to go with you. I agree. Amanda.

I was going to vote for Gina Prince-Bythewood, but I don't want to turn you. I think you go with your heart. I think Viola and Two, Sue and Baydew have been victorious. Okay. And so for the sake of spreading the love. Crouching Book is incredibly deserving, of course. I didn't totally follow that movie, but whatever. Amanda, I really enjoyed how confused I was.

I agree. I think that was the thing. I kind of enjoyed my sense of destabilization. Think of it as a prize for the little drummer girl. And then you will feel better. God, that is so good. Okay, I accept. Okay.

Best picture. I don't even know if this is a good lineup of 10 films that I've chosen, but I have chosen 10 films. There's a very chaotic list of non-contenders for the true Academy Awards. Here are the best pictures of 2022. Ambulance, Armageddon Time, The Batman, Crimes of the Future, EO, Jackass Forever, Nope, The Northmen, RRR, and The Woman King. What did I leave off? What did I miss?

What would you have liked to see here? I mean, I'm just glad you didn't put white noise. I appreciate that. Amanda and I did appreciate it, honestly. The bonfire of the vanities of our time. Oh, wow. Rude. Well, that's fine.

All of our heroes have to have complicated midlife failures. I had a lovely time at the premiere and after party. I would, I mean, my vote here would go to, I'd vote for nope. Of course you would. I would vote for nope. This is tough for you. Well, I mean, I don't have. For Amanda?

Yeah. He looked at me. Yeah. I don't really have anyone in this fight. I tried really hard to think of anything that I would nominate, and it was just a weird year in movies for me, you know? And I was like, can I nominate Downton Abbey 2? Which was my third favorite.

And I was like, no, I can't. It was my third best movie-going experience of last year, but that says more about me and the 2022 that I had than the movies itself. So, you know, there's nothing... experience of last year, but that says more about me and the 2022 that I had. But that's okay. The movies itself. So, you know, there's nothing. If you wanted to put it on the list, I would have been down with that. No, I didn't. No, because I didn't. Because it was just like a very good TV movie that I watched with my mother at home on streaming and had a great time, you know? And sometimes that's

what you need. I don't think it deserves an alternative Oscar, but if that's the pool that I am drawing from, I, you know, I don't really have anything else to advocate for. I didn't totally get Nope. I also saw it in a sleep deprived time in my life. And so I think some of that confusion just went over my head, Wesley. I thought it looked, you're not alone. Well, I thought it looked beautiful. Like even I could appreciate that, but I am happy for you two to choose Nope. In 10 years, when Wesley and I are co-hosting a revival screening of Nope with Jordan Peele, which is something I aspire to in my life, you are invited. You will have any seat you like in the theater.

Wow, thank you. You will have a son who is thriving and is 11 years old. Oh my God. And your mind will be clear and you'll be able to is he invited? fully of course he is okay and any film that I program

your son is invited actually more than you okay so just keep that in mind I'm alright with that thank you oh shit and

okay he likes John more than me I do that's not true you guys will sit and watch together okay and you will take in the power and the meaning

of spectacle that jordan peele is riffing on i'm psyched okay because i hope is the winner here for sure well put sean i agree um i just think this movie i think we forget and it's sort of easy to overlook how funny his movies are um i mean i know that it should not be easy to overlook that given his background but i think people get hung up on like i mean not unreasonably because he kind of aspires to this in some way about the meaning of the films but just on a human level this movie really works um once they bring in the the is his name brandon petta uh um yeah yeah who works in the you know at that best buy like big box electronic store that character's wonderful it's exactly i mean so spielberg is like now at this moment in his career where he's thinking about how he became himself but there are all these directors making movies good movies in some cases very good movies

who like carry on in his spirit and M. Night is obviously one of those people M. Night Shyamalan has been doing this for a long time and Jordan Peele is another person and I just feel like they're like his instincts and all the other kind of filmmakers and filmmaking and genres that he's interested in that aren't necessarily Steven Spielberg's they just

come together in this really exciting way and for all of the questions about what the movie's about like is it a I mean it's it's about spectacle it's about entertainment it's about the western like writ large and you know the western as a genre um the west um you know the history of the industry in which this movie was made made. You know, it's illogic kind of somehow serves its logic. What is supposed to make sense? I don't know. I just love the melange of ideas, the conflict of ideas, and the through line here, which is very simple. We got to figure out what this thing is and how to stop it.

Yeah. And that is exciting to watch watch i watched this in a theater full of people who were on the edges of their seats it was it was just fun it was a really good time and that last shot of kiki palmer looking at daniel because that sequence where she's looking at him on that horse oh come on couldn't have said it better myself congratulations to nope film that i really am like excited to watch again very soon uh this is one of my favorite episodes of the year wesley thank you so much what thanks for having me it's uh you know you're in my ears all the time but it's nice to talk to the two of you we're very kind you're the best lovely to see you great to

see you too lovely to see you too. Lovely to see you guys. We will, we'll at least be texting you about the Academy Awards for the next couple of weeks. I don't know. Hopefully we'll see you again soon. In the meantime,

what's coming up on this podcast, Amanda? Oh yeah, Creed 3. Yeah. Creed 3. Creed 3. A film I enjoyed that we'll be discussing later this week. Oh my God.

The bodies. The bodies. The bodies. It's truly speaking of bodies. Thanks to Bobby, the body Wagner, our absolutely cut producer who produced this episode. Thanks so much for your work. And thanks again, Wesley. See you soon. Anytime.

Talk to you guys later. Thank you.