The Big Picture - The 2023 Oscar Nominations: Snubs, Surprises, and WTFs

Episode Date: January 24, 2023

The Oscar nominations are here! Sean and Amanda break 'em all down, including the big surprises and the final tally for the Best Picture race (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by Belgian writer-director and newly minted Oscar nominee Lukas Dhont to discuss his new film, ‘Close’ (59:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Lukas Dhont Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the 2023 Academy Award nominations. We are coming to you early on Tuesday morning to hash out the just

announced nominations. Later in this episode, I will have a conversation from the past with the future Academy Award nominee, Lucas Dunt. He's the brilliant Belgian filmmaker whose second feature, Close, was just nominated for Best International Feature this morning. I hope you'll stick around for our chat. You did it previously, but he's not a future nominee anymore. He is, according to the timeline we're are currently in the timeline we're in right now,

he is an Oscar nominee and congratulations to him. You're, you're right at the time he was a future nominee and now he is a nominee. There are so many more nominees that we have to talk about. Amanda, the Academy award nominations. This didn't feel like it took as long to get to, as I felt like it has in the past.

It has seemed like a reasonably timed award season to me. I will say I'm fascinated with getting what I want. And I kind of feel like this morning I got what I wanted. And now I'm trying to figure out how I feel about that. I'm not mad. I am not frustrated. I am not frustrated i am not um confused i but i am i'm trying to figure out if this is the future that we really needed um i'll give

some context for this big uh quest for feelings i think the first context we should give is that you have been up since 5 30 a.m pst which is a choice that you make every year. And I want to say that I woke up at 630, just dialed right into the list on my phone, sent Sean a text calling some people some morons, and then went and had some coffee and moved on with my day. But that does affect our mind states. Yes. Let's read the text that you sent me at 633 a.m. OMG, those absolute morons.

I have no idea what that's referring to, but I look forward to finding out. I think you can guess. So broadly speaking, let's just talk about Best Picture. That's the most important category. There were some interesting surprises. This is one of the most balanced sets of nominees

I think I've ever seen. And it does seem to confirm the current shape of the Academy in many ways. Now, for years, I've been saying nominate blockbusters, nominate movies people have seen, get them to turn on the Academy Awards and see if their favorite movie might win. And in fact, they did that. Top Gun Maverick and Avatar The Way of Water were both nominated for Best Picture. There's also two solid moneymakers that feel like traditional visions of movie making.

One is a biopic about a very famous American figure, Elvis. The other is a multiversal science fiction genre story that also has a lot of heart and is also a family drama in everything, everywhere, all at once. Both of those movies did pretty good business. A lot of people saw them. There are two beloved arthouse achievements here. The Banshees of Inisharan from longtime playwright and Academy Award nominee Martin McDonough and our beloved Tar from Todd Field, who now basically is three for three in terms of Academy Award nominations. All three of his films have been Oscar killers. There's an internationally celebrated auteurist film, which has been a huge thing

in the Academy for the last 10 years as their membership has expanded. Triangle of Sadness did very well, as you predicted, today. There's another international big-scale production that six months ago, I don't even think was on our radar, but did very, very well in All Quiet on the Western Front,

which also I predicted in the last couple of months. You did. There's also a strong film made by a woman and starring women called Women Talking, something that has been a huge issue

around the Academy for the last decade that they have worked to, I don't know about fix, but they're working on it. One out of ten. I mean, and that's not fair.

Everything Everywhere All at Once does have a strong female cast, and I believe three of those women were nominated for enacting categories, which we'll get to. So we should be fair. But I mean, women talking as your one woman thing, lol. They could do better, but they did something.

And then there's also a late period film from a master. There's an old Hollywood nomination here in Steven Spielberg's The Fableman's Getting Recognized. So a lot of the things that I look for and am interested in, the narratives that we cling to, the way that the Academy has evolved over the last decade or so has come to bear. When you look at the nominees for Best Picture, what do you see? I see that you and I were both right which is a like a rare and beautiful thing we were both a little wrong and I that's obviously how I look at this list is what did we predict and what did we we get going so as as you alluded to I have been I've seen the triangle of sadness thing coming for some time you you know, the it's and I think

that's a reflection of the increasingly international Academy. The French just really love Ruben Aslan, you know, and they have an influence, I guess, on how cinema is received. And then you were right about All Quiet on the Western Front, which I thought would flip. I thought it would be Daniel Berger in Best Director and that it would not make it into best picture that that was wrong. There was an international director edition in best director, but it was Ruben Aslan speaking of, you know, just triangle of sadness,

just really speaking to the world at large about a very obvious vision of how capitalism sucks, whatever. I kind of liked it. And otherwise, I think this was fairly predictable, but in a way that realized what we were hoping for. I'm thrilled to see Top Gun Maverick there. I'm not surprised because I think we knew it was coming, but thank God. I think I threatened to I think we knew it was coming. But like, thank God. You know, I think I threatened to like hang off a billboard this morning if it weren't nominated or something. And I'm pleased to report that I'm not on a billboard currently. Would that be amazing if I was just like live from the Sunset Strip?

It's me on a ladder. Was that part of the wager that you would record while i don't know but you know it's like i don't i don't have that much time you know i'm a busy i'm a working mom i gotta multitask um also it's just what we do for the content i'm glad you're not hanging as well uh the two films that i predicted that i thought would be in this category were the whale and my beloved babylon there were a lot of strong indications were the whale and my beloved Babylon. There were a lot of strong indications that the whale was going to be here. I would say that is one of the bigger surprises just in the last two weeks.

I told you to relax and I feel vindicated. I don't know that I'm relieved necessarily, but that would have been very strange to me. Babylon, that was just a wish and a prayer. That was just me wish casting as much as I could. I think you were always onto something with Triangle of Sadness and it did come to bear. Babylon could have been our nightmare alley, you know? Yeah, I thought that was a great take. And as I said, and it could have been our phantom thread

and it has had enough recognition both in crafts categories and at the SAG Awards for us to think like, oh, maybe this could happen. But it turns out some other internet things happened, which we will get to shortly. They certainly did. Let's just do a quick gloss on the sort of total nominations, because I think this says a lot, obviously, about what the show is going to look like and what we can expect on that night.

Everything Everywhere at Once leads all nominations with 11. That's a lot. It is. That is close to a historical number. And as you know, I've been on Everything I Roll at Once for months now.

I've felt like this is the Best Picture winner. What it did today, particularly in the acting category, is getting four acting nominations, including two for Best Supporting Actor, as you indicated,

or Actress, rather, is a big deal. Yeah, it's a huge deal. I have prepared some historical research for you. Okay. Exciting. Some numbers. Well,

no, it has to do with the, it has, it's the number of nominees and the film with the most nominations every year. And then how that pans out to, to best picture. So it seems like this is the time to do it.

Tell me, share. Okay. I love, I love data. I know you do. So last year with 12 nominations, The Power of the Dog. Okay. 10 was Dune. Seven was Belfast. Belfast got seven nominations last year. Don't know if you remember that. And West Side Story also had seven. And then the eventual winner, Coda, had

three. Now, Coda was a bit of an anomaly in that respect. It was doing a lot of historical things in terms of winning Best Picture without having a lot of lower category support, but just something to keep in mind. I'm skipping the Nomadland year because that was COVID year. 2019, 2020 Oscars, 2019. How do you want to refer to this? Like, what's our house? I always use the year when the show is happening. Okay. So the 2020 Oscars before things went south.

11 nominations. Can you guess? Without looking. The Irishman? Joker. Oh, wow. Yeah. Amazing.

Okay. And then 10 nominations for The Irishman, 1917, and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Your eventual winner, Parasite, six. Okay. One year later. I mean, one year earlier. 2019. With 10 nominations.

Can you guess the two films? Gosh. 2019? I can't. What are they? I think our house style is confusing, by the way, because all of these movies were released in 2018. And that's how you think about it and how I think about it. But anyway.

I don't. Jojo Rabbit? I don't know. No. The Favorite and Roma tied for the most nominations. Of course. Okay. The Favorite also getting a lot of acting nominations.

And then eight nominations, Our Beloved Star is Born and also Vice, speaking of acting nominations. Black Panther had seven nominations. Black Klansman had six nominations. And your eventual winner, Green Book, had five. All right. I've got two more years for you. I'll go short. I'll go short. I'll be short. The year before,

which was, I guess, 2000 and whatever, The Shape of Water had the most nominations with 14, and it did win. The year before that, La La Land had the most nominations by far, 14, and Moonlight. Moonlight was second, tying with Arrival for eight. So I just want to point out a trend to you. It's a very good point. This year, I'm not sure what that means. I'm not either. If the indication is that films that often have fewer nominations are more likely to win,

the films that have five or fewer nominations this year, I do not see a winner amongst them. The list of those films, but it's not the most, there's just an emerging thing of like, we always call it the Irishman, but it is like, I think we can put the Irishman 1917,

the power of the dog, like the Roma. Another thing, a lot of those movies have in common is their Netflix movies. It's interesting that I sort of feel like all quiet on the western front is playing both the irishman and 1917 this year um insofar as it's dominating crafts but is not really competing for best picture yes and it's also the netflix film right with a huge amount of nominations that probably won't go on to i mean it may win some below the lines um

famously shut out you're sure this is not just self-justification for your tar theory well it is also a little bit of justification for my tar theory um but i just i'm circling it now you know here's the other thing and i don't know how much longer we can podcast without getting to it. The Academy reads the internet. The Academy is susceptible to posting, okay? Andrea Risborough was nominated for Best Actress, which is what my text to you was about. These people are logging on to Edward Norton's Twitter account and being like, that's what I got to do.

You know, they are buying posture correctors from Gwyneth Paltrow and voting for Andrea Risborough for best actress. So anything can happen. And whatever's happening on the internet is also happening in the Academy. I feel like for a long time, there like been an old school um category of of awards prognosticators who are like the internet doesn't matter and i do think this is distinct from film twitter because film twitter also quickly identified that andrea riseborough thing as a bit of a punchline um but like everyone's online everyone's online sorry so anything can happen

well it's funny that you say that so okay let me just circle back very quickly before we get into Andrew Rice, bro. It's a very important conversation because it could be one of the more critical things that's happened to the Academy Awards, honestly, which sounds bizarre, but it is meaningful. Very quickly, though, Everything Ever Low Once with Eleven, All Quiet on the Western Front with Nine, Banshees with Nine, Elvis with Eight, Fablemans with Seven. Those feel like, with the exception of All Quiet, which I don't think is necessarily competing. Those feel like the leaders in the clubhouse to me. And those are all six.

Why do you always do this? Tar was six and read the six that tar has picture director, actress, original screenplay, cinematography, editing, editing. Come on.

I mean, I would imagine that the Irishman also had all of those nominees. Sure. You know, you can, you can draw the math, however you want. And maybe you're gonna be right it's very possible you're gonna be right like you're just cutting like one number whatever i just that's what i have to say if tar wins it will be the most bitter film ever made to win best picture now i it's one of my favorites

but i i think you're whistling dixie honestly um i think that the thing about the andrew rise bar thing that is meaningful is certainly people are online really what they said to me is that no matter how big the academy gets it's still a club and it's still a club of very powerful people and the actors branch in particular with rank choice voting at the nomination stage you know I think it was Pete Hammond at at deadline who pointed out that out of the 1,500 or so actors that would be voting there, about 200 needed to put her at number one to secure a Best Actress nomination. 200 people for a clearly very well-connected actress. And we should point out that it was Matt Bellany in his Newt Puck newsletter

who located the source of this campaign, which is Mary McCormick, the star of the Howard Stern film, Private Parts, and a longtime working actor who was married to Michael Morris, the writer director behind Two Leslie, who is friends with Andrea Risborough, who essentially kick started this grassroots online campaign to get people to be aware of to leslie and to vote for andrew risborough many screenings populated by famous people were organized obviously there was this twitter viral strategy and as you said it worked and and this morning a lot of people are saying that this is the future of academy award campaigning yeah of course that using your big streamer behind you to spend millions of dollars on parties and events and mailers is not as important as we thought what's important is

to remember that the academy awards is populated largely by susceptible famous people who are in a big club together yeah i think that's true. I think it will have diminishing returns because at some point people will recognize like, oh, okay, they've got so-and-so. And you're right that it'll still be clubby and influencer-based like the rest of the world is. But it won't be as surprising as this is. I'll respect to Andrea Riceboro,

who's like a very talented actress but like this is a little silly you know it's funny it's funny that it worked um and also sort of a shame that it worked in some ways if you want to drill down because i think it's commonly understood that this was at the expense of a couple other actors, specifically Daniel Deadweiler and Viola Davis, who are not nominated, who are both Black actors. And that's like a little bit that I mean, that's not a little bit of a bummer. That's a bummer. I you know, but otherwise it's I mean, it's a funny talking point. And I think that you will see a lot more celebrity hosted screenings or that those will also be more online. I mean, that is the difference.

It's not like there aren't celebrity hosted, like important people, influencer screenings all of the time. A lot of this is done behind closed doors. And what's also funny about this is that now you just you can see it all playing out online. It's likely to continue. I think, you know, having strong management strategically is also a huge part of this. Like coordinating these events

and communicating to these folks is a thing. And this just developed in the last two weeks. I definitely had heard of the movie Too Leslie because I listened to WTF with Marc Maron.

But if not for that and my time spent on the Apple trailers page I'm not sure I would have known this was a film because it was the release was so limited and the quote-unquote awards buzz was so soft until two weeks ago and they just nailed it there's a

five-day voting window and they all of the screenings and all of the tweets happened all in that window and they got a nomination you know the best actress category is also has been very strange this year because there's been this understanding that there were two huge leaders in kate blanchett and michelle yeo and the race has been between them all year long and then there have been these three open spots and there's been an assumption that maybe as you said you said, Daniela Deadweiler and Viola Davis were holding on, given that they've done well at precursors and at critics awards. Ana de Armas recently emerged in a couple of other precursors, in particular at the BAFTAs. And Michelle Williams was campaigning in a category

that many felt was inaccurate or even just a strategic mistake on her part, given that her role feels more like a supporting role on The Fablemans. Turns out she did in fact get the Best Actress nomination. I am a bit surprised by the Viola Davis snub, if you want to call it a snub. I'm

just a little mystified by the Woman King experience in general. And certainly if you want to say, well, it's racially motivated or that movie wasn'tified by the woman king experience yeah in general and certainly if you want to say well that's it's racially motivated or there's that movie wasn't seen by the right kind of audience quote unquote however you or maybe it's a story about women however you want to say like there's a reason that this missed um that's a crowd-pleasing movie in a very classic way and something that i think the academy continues to need and i think a big part of the top gun maverick celebration this morning is because that's a huge crowd pleaser and it made

people feel good about the movies. Obviously, The Woman King did not do nearly as well as Top Gun Maverick at the box office, but it's going to be on Netflix at some point soon. And when it does, I really just feel like people are going to be like, what? This is basically Braveheart, but with black women in Africa. Why did this not play? So I'm confused. No, I think you're right. It's a missed opportunity. And some of it seems like the Woman King's campaign like did not have the ability to get it back in front of the right people in that two week window, you know, which I mean, you can read a lot into that. You can read like strategy mistakes from Sony and its distribution, or you can read it as

like it does not have the network that, say, 2Leslie and Andrea Risborough has, which is also a shame and like pretty icky when you think about it. But I agree. I've had a great time with The Woman King, and it would be fun to see Viola Davis here. It would be fun to see Lashana Lynch here. It would be fun to see Tuzan Bedouin, the best like breakthrough performance category that they still refuse to add.

And they really should. Anyway, you know, Oscar's going to Oscar, I guess. Let's talk about some more surprises. Paul Muscalum, best actor. We know, again, another thing that we- Sort of a surprise, but like not really. Yeah, yeah. But great. When Adam Sandler got in at SA suggested. Yeah. But great.

When Adam Sandler got in at SAG, I thought to myself immediately Paul Mascalis is getting in. How do you think Phoebe Bridgers is doing this morning? Are they still together? No, you don't know about this? No. Yeah, she and Bo Burnham are together now.

Oh, what? They've been photographed at the airport together, but they're not public-public, or maybe they finally went public. But yeah, it was a very quick split. And then Phoebe Bridges... Wait, Bo Burnham and Lorene Scafaria broke up?

Apparently, yes. Damn, that was one of my favorite couples. Same. This has been sort of an internet scuttle, but that's the Internet I'm on. I'm not on the two Leslie Internet, but I'm on this one. She tells you everything about me that I don't know anything about this. There was a very cute photo from, I believe, Paul Meskel's sister that was like the Meskel family like WeChat or whatever, you know, this morning

and like a screenshot of all of them as the nomination was announced. Were they burning a copy of the Boy Genius EP? No, they were just all really happy and it was very cute. Okay, that's great. I'm happy for Paul Meskel.

I feel like we have a couple of movies you and I need to revisit before we get to the academy awards i know i know and we've been circling the what's wrong with us why don't we respect after sun take yeah and might be time might be time to revisit after sun it's not that i don't respect it i respected it i just thought maybe but i was a sociopath but I'm cooking up at like another take in the lab that is ungenerous um about Anderson yeah but you're right that I need to re-watch it and regardless I I'm really happy for Paul Muskell yeah he's great and obviously he is he's on the rocket ship right now getting cast in huge project after huge project uh in addition to best actor of

course Austin Butler Colin Farrell, and Brendan Fraser were nominated, and Bill Nighy for Living, which many people assumed would also be the case. One really nice surprise, we touted this performance a few weeks ago, Brian Tyree Henry in Supporting Actor for Causeway. Delightful. I will never not be happy to see Brian Tyree Henry like anywhere. One of like my

favorite actors of his generation deserves every nomination he wants. This is my Andrea Riseborough like great. Go ahead. Brian Tyree Henry. Also speaking of Cosway, I watched Eileen last night, which was the second script by a Tessa Moshfegh and her husband slash writing partner, Luke Goebel. I liked it. That's what I have to say. More TK. For more on Eileen and all of the films that are currently playing Sundance, we will be talking about them at the end of this week.

This feels, Causeway is a very little seen movie. So this is kind of a fascinating one. I thought this was also a great Jennifer. Not if Timothy Chalamet has anything to say about it. Yeah. Are you referring to his ad work? Yeah. You watched his Apple ad? Of course. Yeah. I thought it was great. I mean, I'm now concerned about his money problems, but that was the first thing my wife said when she saw we were watching TV and she was just like, how did they get Timothy Chalamet

for this? I mean, Apple pays currency, pays uh currency american currency be in an upcoming apple project right i'm i'm sure that he is but also like who cares i mean well i haven't that's great it is great causeway was good i hope more people like now i'm because he's not making enough on dune too you know what i don't i don't blame anybody for trying to get as much as they can whenever they can just keep just keep thriving timothy keep thriving brian tyree henry this did feel to me a little bit like a If Beale Street Could Talk makeup nomination, you know, where it's like

at that moment, that campaign got started a little late. He gives an amazing performance in that movie. Not that his performance in Causeway isn't amazing. I agree with you. He's a captivating screen presence. But that was one where he took over the movie for nine minutes. This is actually

quite a quiet film and a quiet performance and relative to say andrea riseborough who's basically just yelling for two hours and two leslie um i i was i'm just i'm really really surprised that they went with this but again best supporting actor much like so actor and actress was a kind of an up and down category that it was hard to predict a lot of these fourth and fifth nominations in some of these categories. In addition to him, Judd Hirsch got in for his loud, noisy nine minute takeover of a movie in the Fablemans and his quieter compatriot, Paul Dano, did not get in for his work in the Fablemans, which I don't want to say I was shocked by, but I was very surprised by. What was your reaction to it? That this makes sense. And that the people, these people,

by these people, I guess I mean the Academy voters who nominated Judd Hirsch and not Paul Dano. These people. And also who nominated Michelle Williams in Best Actress, watched and understood the Fablemans the same way that I did. And I never really got like the, I don't believe in category

fraud. I think you got to you got to play the game to win is my opinion. But also, I think she's very much the center of that movie. And that I mean, that's how I watched it. And I do also I think that that Judd Hirsch scene really animates that like it's supposed to be a toggle between those two characters but i think the side that spielberg like ultimately takes is pretty clear and the judd hirsch scene gives like voice to a lot of that or maybe at least gives voice to what um actors want to believe their craft is doing which is another way that people get nominated. So I think that makes sense. And he's also been a nominee in the past for 40 years ago for Ordinary People.

So that's kind of fascinating. I just, as I said, I think a week ago to you, I think that Dano Performance is actually an amazing inversion of what he's usually doing. And so in a way, I was thinking if he was ever going to be recognized, it would be for something

where it's not just him screaming no as the Riddler, you know, that it would be for him doing something a little bit more downbeat and a little bit more internal. Nevertheless, we mentioned that Triangle of Sadness was nominated for Best Picture and also for Director and Original Screenplay, which is this really strong showing. And yet, no Dolly DeLeon in Best Supporting Actress, which I don't know that I was surprised by either, but is certainly notable when you think about where is this film going in the race? It's possible it doesn't win anything, even though it has these three huge nominations here. I think this is also a category that in the last month has sort of solidified at the top in the sense that I think Angela Bassett will probably win for

supporting actress, which is great. And I feel great about that. But so the other four spots have been sort of sliding around in a similar way to supporting actor where I think it's kind of understood. Kiwi Kwan seems like the the biggest lock of the four categories. Well, yeah, I think so. Even above Cate Blanchett in Best Actress. I would agree with you. I think it's not over for Michelle Yeoh yet. Yeah. So then you just kind of have some slip sliding

and the ranked choice can break out a lot of different ways. Speaking of supporting actress, so Stephanie Sue and lee curtis were both nominated for everything everywhere all at once um stephanie sue in particular has has been campaigning there was a feature about her in the new york times recently um she's obviously a huge part of that film it's not until sort of the second half of that films or it sort of starts to become a little bit as much her movie as it is Michelle Yeoh's movie. The Jamie Lee Curtis nomination

felt very much like this is a, you know, an icon of Hollywood and an iconic family and someone who's never been nominated before and who gives like a fun performance. But I think it would have actually been quite strange if she were recognized and Stephanie were not.

So... I'm glad it played out this way. Yes, I agree. Me too. To me, it again shows a little bit the power of campaigning, though, because you could feel these folks and Hong Chow as well. Someone who I think there's an increasing admiration for in the Academy and is a little bit more of a known quantity after appearing in, for example, the menu. Can I just mention something about the menu really quickly? Sure.

There was something the last couple of days I was like, I wouldn't be surprised to see a wacky, the menu nomination, like if it showed up in original screenplay or maybe even been in best picture. Obviously that didn't shake out this morning. But the reason that I've been thinking that is that I think it has a chance to become one of, if not,

maybe like among the 10 or 15 most seen American movies of 2022. Yeah. And like I was, it's been the most logged movie on Letterboxd for two weeks. There are 250,000 reviews of that movie

on the service right now, which puts it like more than Avatar The Way of Water. It's like getting into league with, I think everything ever at once has like 350,000. Like it's getting into that league

of a lot of fucking people are logging this movie. Now, obviously, that's generally a small sample size relative to what i'm talking about but when someone like hong chao is in a movie like the menu which is so widely seen and she is sort of like your you know your guide through the film in many respects like that has a way of amplifying someone's kind of known quality like she becomes a kind of star in a unique way. She becomes a character actor star. So I'm not surprised at all to see her.

And I'm also just very, I'm still so fascinated by the way that people get introduced to actors or understand people becoming famous in subtle ways, not just in the typical like name on the poster, interviewed on the Tonight Show. There are ways to be introduced to people and get addicted to people and like stand culture.

And I mean, Paul Muscal, I feel like is a version of this too. He's somebody who, since Normal People came out, has become this kind of online heartthrob icon. And that is a way to become an elevated person in the business

and become nominated for Academy Awards. It's just, it is very different than it used to be 10 years ago. Yeah. No, I think that this nomination is definitely for the menu, even though it says for the whale on the nominations. Because the whale was the money funding her campaign while the menu was actually doing all of the work because it was suddenly available on HBO Max during the right time frame. And this, to your point, is also just like the timing and getting in front of people on a streaming service

and being seen matters as much as the campaigning, but campaigning matters too. I completely agree. A couple of more, I don't know if these are surprises necessarily, but seeing Natu Natu from RRR and Best Song i think people some people feel

vindicated there's been obviously a very emotional campaign for that film it did not perform anywhere else here which is you know disappointing for a lot of those fans i'm not i'm not surprised by that that always felt like a kind of a very noisy cult campaign um that was aspirational but not likely to succeed higher than that and then I thought it was really notable that this is a life that David Byrne Sunlux song from everything I wrote at

once was nominated here I didn't have that tab it probably wasn't even in my top seven or eight indicates to me another sign of intense strength as does Sunlux is original score

nomination two things that I just wasn't sure sure we're gonna come into play but then otherwise this is a pretty power-packed collection of nominees. Please put some respect on David Byrne's name. Like, that's powerful.

I've been workshopping my Talking Heads Best American Band Since 1975 take all month. I think that's really good. Non-stop Talking Heads in my house. Okay. I mean, I support you. David Byrne is a god to me. Me too.

Bobby, do you have any relationship to the talking heads? Yeah, I like the talking heads. Okay, well, that wasn't really

what I was looking for. That was sort of like, yeah, and I too will watch Casablanca at some point, but whatever. What do you mean,

no, I listen to the talking heads. That had major, Marty, Kundun, I listened to the talking heads that had major Marty. Kundun. I liked it. Energy to it. David Byrne is an Oscar nominee.

That's great. Yeah. Rihanna is also an Oscar nominee. So I just want to say that Rihanna could complete the Super Bowl halftime show to Oscar winner like month that Jennifer Lopez did, did not manage. I just want to put that out there. She would be a tougher Jennifer Lopez, but really exciting for Rihanna.

I'm just rooting for Rihanna. As you know, I don't know. I assume not to not, who's going to win here, but I do too as well. No, I don't think,

I think not to not to will win. I think Rihanna will go, which is exciting. You get Rihanna will go, which is exciting. You get Rihanna at the Oscars. You'll get Lady Gaga at the Oscars. Taylor Swift was not nominated for a song Oscar. So that's a shame. I included that just as like a congratulations to you, Sean Bennessy.

I don't celebrate it. I don't celebrate anybody not being nominated, but that's just going to say that's a shame. Diane Warren got her 14th Oscar nomination for this category as well for a song called Applause from a film called Tell It Like a Woman. Let me tell you two things about that. Never heard that song. Never heard of that movie. Don't know what those things are. Do they exist? Okay. Yeah. I mean, I concur. I don't know. Congrats to Diane Warren again. She's just thriving. She's an industry for her. My beloved Ciao Papa from Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio

was not nominated. Okay. What will I tell my daughter about that? I had to Google Ciao Papa this morning. But as soon as I was typing it, I was like, oh, this is Pinocchio. Never mind. I know what it is.

I'm compelled to sing. Okay, go ahead. Ciao Papa, we Papa, we have come to, Papa. Me, Papa. We have come to say farewell. Look at that. What a beautiful melody. That is literally your skittering voice.

Did you guys make a bet to act like each other on this pod? Why is Sean singing and Amanda is not? We didn't make that bet. First of all, the song is sung by a small boy. So that's why it's my Skinnamering voice. And by boy, I mean puppet. It's sung by a puppet. I've started actually singing Skinnamering to Knox all the time now because of Skinnamering, the movie.

That's very chaotic. Well, I know all the words. Do you think that... Will you let me and CR take Knox to the skin and meringue 10-year retrospective screening when he's 10 years old i mean not when he's 10 when he's 20 yes maybe even 15 there's something like less fun about escorting a 20 year old man for a movie screening that's a good that's a good point what about a 15 year old he's gonna he's gonna need help and support i'm not sure that they're gonna What about a 15-year-old? He's going to need help and support. Sure. I'm not sure that they're going to be doing a 15-year anniversary.

Maybe they will. Maybe it'll be the most important movie of all time. Everybody does every year anniversaries now, you know? That's true. You're right. Will we be doing a 10-year anniversary for The Quiet Girl, which was nominated in Best International Feature, the Irish film that I have not seen?

As you said, congratulations to Ireland. Ireland is fucking crushed at the Academy Awards. We're thriving out here Banshees have been a Sharon Paul Muskell the quiet girl which is no doubt in competition with Top Gun Maverick for fiercest movie of 2022 I I'm I'm so proud of Ireland and I'm just so proud to be a descendant of Ireland uh yeah that so that film, hopefully I'll see it in the next couple of weeks. It's not out until February. And I don't know. It's kind of annoying that in 2023, a bunch of movies that are still not released get nominated.

Like Close, the film that I'll be talking to Lucas Daunt about, is out this coming Friday. It's an amazing movie. It premiered in last May at Cannes. It's like, put this movie out, man. People need to see this. Or send us to Cannes. It's like, put this movie out, man. People need to see this. Or send us to Cannes. You know, that's what I have to say. That's, well, you can speak to our superiors about that.

Cinematography is a weird category this year. Top Gun Maverick not getting in, I found very surprising. And I don't really know what's going to win. Among the punditry, that seems to be the one that is most confounding. It's possible that Alquad on the Western Front is now the leader in this category. I do think that if we see an early Tar win here, maybe your Tar manifestation is coming true. Yeah, I would agree. I just want to note it's there. Also there is, I believe the only nomination for Sam Mendes is empire of late because it's

Roger Deakins. And let me just say right now, Roger Deakins, my fave to ever do it. A talented, wonderful man, contributions to cinema, like untold number,

you know, a plus guy. Also the inspiration for one of our greatest podcasts empire of late is i finally seen it and like what on earth what on earth like what i given that reaction which i think many people shared it is even though it's roger deakins and even though this has been predicted for months and months, it's still a very surprising nomination. Also, just what is even... I mean, I guess the cinematography looks nice.

I mean, the beach looks very pretty. All of the sex scenes, of which there are at least seven, why are creepy? Which is possibly the point. There are definitely not seven sex scenes in Empire of Light. I watched so many awkward sex scenes. Yes, she has sex with Colin Firth at least three times. It's really upsetting. And then she gets up to some other stuff, which I don't want to spoil. I don't know. I'm trying to think of a clever pun

for what the Empire of Light porn parody would be that you mistakenly watched instead of empire of light because there's no way there were seven sex scenes i just there was so much awkward uncomfortable sex at like 10 in the morning when i finally decided to watch this movie and i was told a lot of things about this movie none of them good but like none of them involving olivia coleman an actor i love and respect and who gets up to a lot of weird things in movies, just really being in some uncomfortable positions with a number of people. Another uncomfortable position is Bardo being nominated in Best Cinematography,

because it didn't really perform very well at all at the Oscars this year. It didn't even get into Best International Feature, which is kind of shocking when you consider Ina Ritu's success in the past. But Darius Kanji, who is a widely celebrated, though not often nominated cinematographer, did get in for what I would say is a very impressive work

in this movie that I did not like at all. Yeah, a lot of the camera's moving, you know? It's doing things. So I assume you've been storing up your reactions to the Best Animated Feature nominations, which I frankly think are just straight up good. I think every one of these films is good. Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio, Marcel the Shell with Shoes on, Puss in Boots, The Last Wish, which is a box office sensation. Megan is that yeah the the lobby was lit with a lot

of children not yet back at school just rocking out after Puss in Boots yeah I think it's like the the primary school version of Avatar the Way of Water where it's like in its fifth week of release 10% drop it's just just chugging along

other nominations in this category the sea beast the Netflix film which is very good, and I'm very happy to see it here. What happens in The Sea Beast? There's a sea beast. And they have to go find it. It's not that kind of sea beast. It's more about the quest to capture him,

and it's about telling tall tales. Okay, so it's Moby Dick? It is strongly influenced by Moby Dick, yes. Okay, cool. That's great. Much likeoby Dick. Okay, cool. That's great. Much like the whale. Yeah. I just want to say, looking back on all this stuff,

I don't understand why there was no NOPE campaign. I don't understand why NOPE... This was the year when kind of quote-unquote weird stuff broke through. You know, there was a... Jordan Peele has won an Academy Award, is often recognized for his work. This movie, while not a mega sensation like Get Out, was a strong box office performer.

I know it was a summer movie, but everything ever all at once came out in the spring. I just don't, I know it confused some people, but still like this is like a high level achievement in terms of filmmaking. And it just didn't get a whiff. Yeah, it confused me. But I think what happened there was timing where like, you know, the Nope reclamation happened pretty quickly in the lifespan of Nope.

But it was like in December as opposed to in September or October. And that was just like not enough. And I mean, it had a huge place on most critics lists. Kind of critics, you know, sensation propel an Oscar campaign is a question. But also, I think they just didn't have enough time to get it together, you know, like to realize, oh, like we probably could have done something here. But like at the end of the year in December, I just don't, you know, the money's gone at that point. I think you're probably right. It's just a shame. Let's let's talk about some more

of what we could describe as snubs. With The Whale and Babylon out of Best Picture and no adapted screenplay nomination for The Whale, do you think that Brendan Fraser is vulnerable, weak in the Best Actor race? I think he and Colin Farrell are going to cancel each other out and it's Austin Butler.

Oh, interesting. I mean, just like math-wise, I think he and Colin Farrell are going to cancel each other out. And it's Austin Butler. Oh, interesting. That's I mean, just like math wise. I think that's what happens. That's not what I think, but I love that take. Okay.

I'm pushing for Colin Farrell unabashedly. I, I love Colin Farrell. I, I love Brendan Fraser. I would be happy to see both of those. I have had so many Instagram Explorer videos about Austin Butler in the last week and a half. And it's powerful.

It's powerful, powerful stuff. That's just got Adrian Brody winning for the piano vibes all over it. Where it's just like, oh, that's nice. That's cool. And then you just forget it ever happened. And it feels weird. I think that you are seriously underestimating the power of austin butler what does colin farrell have to die without an academy award what are we talking about here

i don't think that he does i like both of these people i would be happy to see colin farrell win an academy award i think he's deserving i would have to be happy to see brendan fraser win an academy award for a performance that i thought was very good and a movie that I didn't like. I think he is also deserving. I just go ahead, Bobby. Colin Farrell's 46. Give him 30 more years. Then the Academy will jump on board.

Come on. I will not let him die without an Academy Award. I'm saying it right here on this pod. Ireland will not let Colin Farrell die without an Academy Award. Harrison Ford doesn't have an Academy Award. Whatever. Make another Star War. Colin Farrell is out here working with Yorgos Lanthimos and Sofia Coppola.

Tom Cruise is going to die on screen, and they still won't give him an honorary postmortem Academy Award. So you've raised an important question that I neglected to ask earlier. So Tom Cruise was not nominated for Best Actor. Yes. Which is not surprising, but it did seem like three months ago it was possible. Will he be at the Academy Awards?

I don't know. They really don't like putting him out there in uncertain environments. And as we learned at the Oscars last year, they out there in uncertain environments. And as we learned at the Oscars last year, they are now an uncertain environment. I don't know.

I wouldn't put him in a room where a slap can happen. You know? Oh, that's a great point. He is nominated for producing Top Gun Maverick. Sure. Jerry Bruckheimer, who's now an Academy Award nominee, which is just extraordinary. Christopher McQuarrie

also nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay along with a handful of other folks who wrote that film. That was one of the big surprises of the morning for me was that that film got an Adapted. Is there any part of you,

like a small part of you inside the deepest recesses of your heart that says Adapted Screenplay? Is this movie, can it win Best Picture? Can Top movie, can it win Best Picture? Can Top Gun Maverick win Best Picture? That those parts of my brain are saying

Tara was nominated an original screenplay and Best Actress and Director and Editing and Cinematography and Best Picture. And it can win. So what you're saying is that you want your number two movie of the year to win over your number one movie of the year. I'm realistic. Okay.

And I also. I'm realistic, but I'm also predicting tar. When I'm right. When I'm right. I'm going to feel so happy. And the thing is, you're going to feel so happy because cinema. And then you're also going to feel so sad because I was just so fucking right.

And I saw it and it's just going to be like a battle between, you know, here's the two shots. You want all this credit for making this prediction, but it costs you nothing. It costs you zero. Because if you get it, you get to,

you get to stand on this mountain for the rest of your life. Talking about, I was the lone voice calling tar i want you to do something a little bit less brave but a little bit more real make a choice between everything everywhere all at once banshees and the fablemans just make a choice god damn it i do think spielberg's gonna win for director and i think that's reasonable and and i probably between those three i think you're right. It is everything, everywhere, all at once.

Because I think Chris, as we were talking through Ranked Choice on the auction, which was a completely deranged podcast. People loved it. Oh, good. I'm glad. I mean, I was remembering Chris doing Dune 2

in the Elvis voice, and that was really funny. That was good. I think kind of Fablemans and Banshees do sort of cancel each other out a little bit. You know, you could see people doing 1 and 2 or 1 and 2. It's possible. I really don't.

I don't know. I'm betwixt and between. You know, speaking of neither James Cameron nor Joseph Kaczynski were nominated in directing. And Sarah Polly was also not nominated in directing, which means after two women won in consecutive years for Best Director, no women were again nominated for Best Director this year. Not shocking, but not ideal. You know, we mentioned already Viola Davis and Daniela Deadweiler were left out of Best Actress this year, but included in Best Actress, have we said the name

Ana de Armas yet? I think so, because we alluded to the exclusion of Daniela Deadweiler and Viola Davis, and Ana de Armas was the other sort of surprise nomination that wasn't really because she was nominated for SAG and Colin Farrell loved her performance in Blonde and let everyone know at the Golden Globes. Actors seem to really like this. It's like a lot of acting. So. Yeah. I really like

Ana de Armas. I feel like we were huge cheerleaders of hers for a long time on the show. Absolutely. I mean, I think she was the best part of No Time to Die. They should start a spinoff series about her character in No Time to Die. And if she were nominated for that, I'd be thrilled. Yeah. Best actress is an odd category this year. Have you seen A House Made of Splinters the documentary that was nominated we haven't mentioned the documentary

category yet I have not I haven't either I don't even think this film has a release date the best documentary category is very that branch

is very fickle and they're very defiant about how they define docs for example Goodnight Oppie was not even

shortlisted which is because it was considered too crowd-pleasing and maybe too conventional in a way. That's about the robot, the space robot? It is about the space robot, the Mars robot.

The list of nominees in general, I think is pretty good. All That Breathes, All the Beauty in the Bloodshed, Fire of Love, and Navalny. Fire of Love, Navalny, and All the Beauty in the Bloodshed are all among my favorite movies of 2022. All the Breathes, I didn't click with as much

as other people. I haven't seen A House Made of Splinters. There's a handful of movies I just straight up haven't seen, which by my standards is saying something. But this is an interesting category. No Descendant, the Margaret Brown Netflix film that many people thought would be here.

No Moon Age Daydream, the Brett Morgan film. I've heard that he is a bit controversial inside the Academy as a figure. And Matt Heinemann's Retrograde was also not nominated, though that's a very good movie too. Which, that is surprising, yeah. And that seemed to have a lot of support. Stanley Choochie was a big fan of that, then posted

a lot about it. Don't really know what to say. Your role as follower of famous people on Instagram is very powerful, I would say. Hold on to that territory. I am. And that's how I knew

about you, Leslie. And I knew that this was coming. Just to further support your tar theories, it is in editing. It's in editing. That's right. No Quiet on the West

is not in editing. Yeah. Which is kind of shocking given how it's performed otherwise below the line. If you could revisit in podcast length discussion any of the films

that are nominated here. Oh, yeah. I knew you were going to ask me about this. Which one would you want to revisit? Because, you know, for example,

we did a very long and deep conversation about Tar. We spent a lot of time on the film. It's coming to Peacock this Friday. For anyone who's not seen Tar yet, and if you have the service Peacock, which I don't know how many people that is, but if you have it, check it out. Stream it. Watch it. Tell all your Academy Award voter friends to vote for it i guess um you know we spent a significant amount of time on elvis we spent a significant amount of time on banshees

same for the fablemans obviously we did many podcasts about top gun maverick yeah um black panther 2 which we've hardly uttered here has five nominations we spent an entire episode talking about that film i do there's a part of me that wants to do an Avatar The Way of Water deeper dive, pardon the pun, with Van because Van hasn't really talked about it on a pod yet and he loves it. And I had a conversation with him in the office about it and I was like, how can I get this energy on the show? I don't think it really has a chance to compete and no James Cameron in Best Director means it's not really doing what it needs to do. But I'm just trying to figure out what's a movie we can dive deeper into. I would like to do that because I always like to hear from Van. I would also like to do. But I'm just trying to figure out, like, what's a movie we can dive deeper into? Yeah. I mean, I would like to do that

because I always like to hear from Van. I would also like to do a podcast with Van where we agree and are all enthusiastic about something because sometimes I feel like with Van, I'm just, like, saying the plots of movies back to him and he's like, uh-huh, that's what happened.

And I'm like, okay, you know? You know what it should be then? What? Because he just hit me up about this. Maybe it should be Triangle should be triangle of sadness okay because you liked it and he liked it yeah I need to give it another drive so maybe maybe a further given that it's here in best picture given that it's got a director and a screenplay nomination maybe a deeper triangle of sadness dive is okay and like we could also we could do both you know that both have water themes oh nice well done you want to go to you want to get offshore the sea is the sea is dope the podcast

i do also think that we have to make chris see avatar way of water he said he's gonna watch it on his phone while driving okay no i think like we should take him you know take him to should we say 4d what? What is 4D? 4DX, where the water splashes on you and the seat shakes. You don't know what 4DX is? No, but like what is the fourth dimension? Experiencing the physical form,

like touching it. Oh, experience is the fourth dimension? Is that like scientifically? No, philosophically? Is that like a movie thing that they made up because they're like we're not 3dx like 4dx is that like me saying that megan 2 will be meg foreign you know like or is that is that like philosophically that the fourth dimension or scientifically i guess the fourth dimension is is it time time? Time is the thing.

Time is the essential part of interpretation. You cannot start without me. You're getting good at that. Thank you, yeah. We definitely, Alice got some science books for Christmas and one of them was like quantum physics for babies. For babies? Oh yeah. And it's just like a picture of a circle with an electron on it.

And it's like this is an electron. An electron can go here but it can't go here. Honestly I thought it was riveting. It reminded me of failing chemistry back in ninth grade. It didn't explain what the fourth dimension is. It did not. But I think if you want to go me you Van and CR

going to see Avatar the Way of Water in 4DX is an incredible conversation. is the fourth dimension time? I'm Googling that right now. All right. All right. You sound like one of the characters

from Interstellar right now. Okay. So can I just read you the Google results? So here's the first one from like fizz.org don't know what that is physicists continue to work to abolish time as fourth dimension here's another from forbes.com this is why time has to be a dimension so apparently this is under debate and the people at forbes

don't feel that time should be the fourth dimension interesting now new scientists, new scientists dot com is saying, what is time? The mysterious essence of the fourth dimension. YouTube. No, time is not the fourth dimension. Wow. I think we I found my new jam. Yes, you can be our science correspondent for someone who does not understand science at all, but Google's things very well.

This feels like a pretty good place to wrap up our conversation. What do you think? I don't know. I thought that was good podcasting. I just think we're, we need to start a spinoff, whether it's a spinoff of JMO or a spinoff of the big picture

where you invest, you and Neil deGrasse Tyson could host together exploring the scientific realities of movies. People love that. Do you feel excited about the Oscars? Like what's your,

what's your mood check right now? I think I've just been, I just felt like everything, everywhere, all at once, a movie that I like a lot has just been in the driver's seat for a very, very long time. Now, at this time last year,

I did not think there was a single percentage chance that Coda was going to win Best Picture. And credit to Bill Simmons, who while you were on leave, was like, it's going to win best picture. And credit to Bill Simmons, who, while you were on leave was like, it's, it's going to win.

It's going to fucking win. And he was right about that. And something will probably emerge out of this other, these other six or seven nominees that we're not thinking about as closely. And maybe you're right. Maybe it's tar. Maybe it's top gun. Maybe it's,

maybe there's a triangle of sadness wave where it's a film that just like, there's a lot of enthusiasm for. I don't think so. But you never know. I mean, you never know, but I don't think so. What you just said,

like the tone with which you just said that was exactly how I was about Coda. And so, I don't, it'd be fun if something like that happened.

I can't believe Coda won Best Picture last year. We never really podcasted about that. So goofy. I know. Like, even that, like I actually, like, as you know, like I had an emotional reaction to that movie when I revisited it, but like, I don't want to talk. I don't want to watch it again. I don't want to talk about it.

It's not, although Amelia Jones is all over Sundance this year, which is super funny. Yeah. I have some thoughts about that, that to be saved for a podcast on Thursday. What a segue. Sounds very exciting. On Thursday, Amanda and I will record our reactions to Sundance 2023, which we are both experiencing virtually. So we're not seeing everything, but we're seeing most stuff. And there's been some good stuff and some not so good stuff. We'll talk about our favorites there. And then after that, it's just a lot of Oscars, a lot of prognosticating. Maybe not as much as we think because there's some good movies coming out in February.

And this kind of feels like a settled debate, but we'll see. What if we decide to be really positive and excited about the Oscars? I am. You think that'll end well? You know what? You don't sound exciting. You sound like you woke up at 5.30 and watched 2 Leslie before we recorded. I did watch it. It was okay. I feel fine. I feel like this is a good set of nominations. Like imagine if this was one of those mornings where like Top Gun missed out,

you know, or Banshees like got two nominations. Like I like most of these movies. That's great news. Feels like 2019 to me. In 2019 where I was like, once upon a time in Hollywood, Irishman, Marriage Story,

Ford versus Ferrari, all movies I really liked. So this feels like that. I don't know. Your voice is hedging. Your voice is hedging. We'll work through it. All right.

All right. Well, I appreciate your support. I appreciate your podcasting. Let's go now to my conversation with Oscar nominee Lucas Dunst about his film Close. very happy to have lucas don't in the in studio with us i'm used to saying in theaters and lucas how are you i'm very good thank you for having me um i'm excited to talk to you close is your second film you're 31 years old and I feel like you are incredibly accomplished at such a young age. And I don't know if you're feeling that or getting that feedback, but just two films and they've been so acclaimed. I was hoping you could tell me a little bit about your

journey to getting to this place. So what it feels like so quickly, although I suspect it doesn't feel that way for you. No, it doesn't feel that way for me because I know I want to make films ever since I'm like 12 or something. So I feel I've been really living up to this moment, you know. But I guess, yeah, I mean, it wasn't my first dream. My first dream was to become a dancer. So when I was young, my mother, she drove me to all these dance classes, R&B, ballet, modern. But then I think I was a young boy who was too occupied with what others thought of me and I sensed that the way I moved and the way I danced for many was seen as too feminine and I think I wasn't this young person who had the courage to say you know what

whatever I'm just gonna dance anyway I stopped I stopped um i mean i danced in between the four walls of my room with my disc man and uh my albums but i didn't dance i i stopped dancing publicly and i think my mother she sensed that and she put a camera in my hands quite literally she got a camera from a girlfriend of hers that she could borrow and we had two weeks of holidays and she just said let's let's make a movie and um from the moment she put it in my hands i never let go of it i just i i wrote started writing scripts. My brother and her were my actors. I made them do really, really silly things. I mean, I'm still so grateful for their patience. I feel like I was just directing them nonstop behind them with the camera, wherever they would go, in the kitchen, in the garden.

And my films at the time were very much about other universes about other realities because i think i i really wanted to use cinema as a way to disappear from reality and so i wrote about zombies i wrote about aliens and about boats that sink. That's so different from the films you're making now. I know. You feel so grounded. I know, right? But there is a turning point.

I think up until 18, I really thought that that was going to be my journey. I really thought that that was the type of films I was here to make. And then as I went to film school, I was confronted with a film that was recently actually chosen as the best film of all times by Side & Sound magazine called Jean Dielman

by a fellow Belgian filmmaker, Chantal Ackermann. And I mean, for those who have seen the film, can imagine what a shock it was, you know, growing up with a cinema in which the average shot length is six seconds and all of a sudden encountering a film in which we stay on an image for minutes and minutes and minutes,

where the camera is placed in a kitchen with a woman making a meatloaf. And I had never encountered that in film before. I had never thought that there was this possibility to place the camera there. It's an image I had seen in my reality. I mean, I had seen, I had been on the floor watching my grandma make dinner.

I had watched my mother do the laundry. And yet I had never thought of placing the camera there. And what happened was that film made me realize that I could place the camera just right next to me. That maybe I was here not to talk about sinking boats, but to show my perspective on a reality. A reality in which I so strongly sensed the conflict between the body I was born in and the expectations, the gender expectations that came with them. And so I really.

For me I mentioned that film. Because for me it's really a pivotal moment. I think in my own. Journey of. The filmmaker I wanted to be. And have become. Or am becoming now. Because both.

Girl and clothes are two pieces with young protagonists i think that feel so much that conflict with a society that is divided into groups each with its codes and norms and pressures i want to ask you a lot about your films but that's so interesting that i mean john dealman is in so in the consciousness right now of film fans in a way that maybe it has maybe never been just based on the controversy of a film like that being a number one and the people returning to it for the first time in so long. As a Belgian, was it helpful in feeling empowered or more confident to make films because a film like that existed from a fellow Belgian and had this kind of international reputation? Or was it just accepted the way

that I might accept Steven Spielberg? No, I mean, it encouraged me really profoundly because what I noticed was when I was studying film and I was discovering, of course, all these other amazing films, especially, let's say, the work of Gus Van Sant, which was an enormous inspiration for me. When I read more about it, I realized that Chantal Akerman had also really been an influence to him. And so I noticed the impact, actually, that a fellow Belgian filmmaker had had

on the international film circuit. And so I think that really empowered me profoundly. We are not the biggest country out there. We are rather small. And yet you feel that this woman, this filmmaker has moved and has impacted so many of the big other filmmakers. And she's not the only one. Of course, we also have the Brothers Dardenne. And we have on the Flemish side, we have someone like Michael Roskam or Felix van Groeningen or Fim Troch,

who's not really known to a big audience, but who is a Flemish filmmaker that really inspires me. She made two films. She has made more than two films, but two films in particular, Kid and Home, that I recommend everyone should see because it's really two poetic little gems.

Tell me about getting your start then after film school and getting films made and writing films. And you've identified that you're shifting your perspective in the kinds of stories that you want to tell. You want to maybe be a little bit more grounded, maybe a little bit more emotional and accessible than sinking boats and zombies. But are you finding it is fairly easy to write? It's fairly easy to get a film made? Has it been a long struggle through 7, 8, 9, 10 years to get the films into the world

when I realized that that was the type of films I wanted to make I realized that I needed to dive inwards and really needed to go look inwards in order to create these pieces and I think that's quite an

interesting both professional as personal journey I think writing these pieces demands a lot from us I co-write with someone Angelo Tejas who I co-wrote both pieces with both films with and I really try to the process of our writing is I start from the personal I start from what what is deeply important to me and then i think like with all the the most succeeded poetry or succeeded poems very quickly i let the me stay behind and i look for a way to phrase it universally so that there is maybe this possibility of collective catharsis. That is something that I desire to do. I don't know if we're succeeding in it, but it's the desire from which it starts, this idea of collective

catharsis. I'm not Greek, but I feel very connected to the Greek in that sense. And I mean, writing is quite the struggle. Let's just name it. Let's just say it. It has beautiful moments where everything comes together, where things you've been imagining for days, sometimes for weeks, sometimes for months come together. But then there's also those days, weeks, months where nothing comes together. And it's about, you know, it gives me great joy. And at the same time, sometimes it's incredibly hard to get the precise radical vision on paper and make it into something that is going to hit universally. So Close in particular features this fascinatingly complex vision of masculinity

and adolescent masculinity in particular. And it feels very real. It feels very ripped from a life if it's not your life. And so I'm kind of curious about how you interpret your personal experiences in an effort to get to that place of the collective catharsis. How much can be or should be autobiography? How much should be pure invention? Are there times when you're writing when it's too close to something that you experience and so you need to kind of pull away from that i'm curious to hear you talk

about that yeah i think it always starts from a desire and and and i think in in this case here for me was this realization that we have been filming so many men fighting with other men and so little men holding other men. That was just one of the starting phrases for this piece. And a friend of mine recommended me a book called Deep Secrets by an American psychologist. And she spent five years in the lives of 150 boys, which is kind of spectacular, that just by itself. Her name is Niall Way. And at the age of 13, she asks these boys to talk about their friendships, their male friendships.

And they talk about each other in the most loving, tender, emotional way. They say they would go crazy without each other. The word love is used openly. And then as these boys grow older, she asks them the same questions again. And you realize and you read that a very very very big part of these boys doesn't dare to speak with the same vocabulary anymore when it comes to talking about each other they have understood that in this very dominance based society emotion is something that is seen as feminine, is seen as soft. And so they want to distance themselves from it. And I feel like we live in a society that therefore deprives young men from authentic connection from very early on. And for me, it's the root of many

problems. It's the root of this epidemic of loneliness. It's also at that moment in time where the suicide rate for men goes four times up compared to that of women. And I think when I read that research, it opened up a lot for me because I felt extremely connected to these young men on the paper. I haven't met them. I read about them because I also, at this moment in time, in puberty, started to fear intimacy with other young men. And I always thought that I was the

only one because when you're young, you think you're the only one feeling things. And I also really thought that it was because I'm queer and that this is a queer experience. But what these boys showed me is that it's not only about being queer, it's about being a young man. It's about masculinity. And we live in a world in which masculinity and intimacy seem so often to be concepts that aren't brought together. And from the moment that I realized that, I think I found a way to make a film, of course, that comes from me, that feels important to me, but that is not about me. That is actually about all of us. so unused to the image of two young men laying in a bed close to each other when that image is not going to be eventually about their sexuality. We are so unused to seeing intimacy that is platonic and that is not about sex. There are a lot of films,

certainly a lot of American films, but also plenty of European films, Asian films, African films, about male friendship. Male friendship is a core structure, thematic structure for storytelling. They very rarely do the thing that you're talking about. And I think the thing that your film

struck a chord with me personally was that adolescent boys are obsessed by their friends, that they are always thinking about when they're going to be able to be with them next and do things together. And I don't know why that doesn't feel like it's present in other movies, but it is very present in this movie. This idea of this like intense intense focused relationship with a person that is not necessarily romantic or anything like that it's just uh it's as much about the idea of spending time as it is anything else i i assume that you in addition to reading the research were kind of channeling like your own experiences too through friendships as an adolescent or even to this day yeah i mean i think we live in a society that

is very oriented towards the romantic relationship. This is what we learn when we grow up is like, life is about finding a job and a romantic relationship. And we underestimate and undervalue so often the power of friendship and friendship actually has a way of living. And I think when I was young, I didn't always value enough the importance and the necessity of that type of connection. I think I pushed away quite a lot of friendships out of fear. And I think now in my adult life, I think my friendships are actually

the core of my happiness. I think I really try to value them and try to embrace the intimacy that I can have within those friendships. Because like you say, I mean, friendship is an incredibly powerful thing. Heartbreak linked to friendship is as devastating, maybe even more devastating than with a romantic relationship. So I feel, and what is very interesting is I feel like there are, this year, there are a lot of pieces coming out about friendship. The Eight Mountains, The Banshees, Close. I thought of Banshees a bit while watching your film too. Yeah, and it's incredibly interesting that there seem to be all these pieces about and in these cases male friendship i feel yes we have

seen uh the structure of male friendship but it's often very performative it's about you know this cool bond it's not about the tenderness of what that relationship can also be and so i feel like this is something really brought up now. Also after this period, I suppose, of pandemic, where we so often were separated from our friends. When did you start working on this? I started working on this in 2019. I started putting the first words on paper. So I guess four years ago.

And were you working on it throughout the pandemic through that the height of the pandemic yes yes and I think the pandemic also really influenced the writing because during the pandemic we were also of course all focusing so much on physical health and there's this other important topic of course that is mental health and that doesn't always mean we're opening up the conversation now um but often there is still this sense of stigma linked to talking about mental health and yet it is so important, especially for young people. I'm curious about casting Eden and Gustav, two of your stars. Historically, working with children is difficult, working with young actors, especially with such sensitive and deep material.

How do you find the right people to play these parts? There's something almost documentary-like, especially in the first 30 minutes of the film, where it feels like you are just perched inside the lives of these two people who we've never seen before how'd you find them and then how to tell me about directing them yeah it's it's i i've heard that before it's hard to work with kids for me it's easier than working with adults and it is because i find that we can learn so many things from listening to children. Like when you listen to a 13-year-old talk about the world or about feelings, I feel they are still so uncensored, linked to the heart. They're not yet saying what society wants them to say.

They're still so pure and it's so intelligent so often afterwards through puberty and through what then when we go to society with all all its rules and expectations we start to censor ourselves um so actually i just love working with that age and I love working with young people. I find it incredibly inspiring. For the approach, because you said it feels really naturalistic and like a documentary, I have to say I went to a film school in which we didn't get to choose between documentary and fiction. So in the four years that I studied there, I always made and short documentaries and short fiction films. And I think I learned so much through documentary. And even if I continued in fiction, I think that in my approach with actors, I imply a lot of the

things that I learned through documentary. Of course, when you work with young people, casting is incredibly important. I went to so many schools and I saw so many young people. And what we did was we organized days and each time during a full day, we would see a group of 30 boys and we would work with them during the duration of a day. Because with young people only seeing them 20 minutes, I mean, they have never done it before. They're uncomfortable. It's only when you let them grow that they will propose things that become interesting.

And they all do. When you give them the confidence that there's time, they will propose you things. Would you match them together? Would you bring in two people at the same time and see what they're... Because the chemistry is such a critical part of it too. Yeah.

Well, by coincidence, Aiden and Gustav were in that same group of 30 people. And, you know, from the beginning, the two of them gravitated towards each other. It's, sometimes you have that with someone. It's a sort of chemistry that you, with some you have, with others you don't, and they had it.

We saw from the beginning that a horizontal collaboration between them would be absolutely possible. What does that that a horizontal collaboration between them would be absolutely possible. What does that mean, horizontal collaboration? Horizontal collaboration means for me that you put yourself on the same line, that there's no power structure, that it's just about all wanting to do as good as the other being at the same eye height not placing yourself higher not feeling better than the other just really working together

in a sort of her yeah in a sort of harmonious way okay i think i mean often we think about a set as something very vertical with like a power structure and i think it's just when you make something collaboration and and and really putting in the work together and all being this at the same eye level is incredibly interesting and important um that's also what I told these boys from the very beginning. Like, I want you to become co-author of this piece. I'm not 13 anymore. They are. I mean, of course, there's a framework and there's a script and it's been written and there's a mise-en-scene and there's all this technique that they don't necessarily know about. But I also want to listen to them and allow them the freedom to express.

And if they feel like that expression should go slightly elsewhere, I want to be open to listen to that. I'll give a concrete example. For example, there's a scene in the beginning of the film and it's Leo is telling a bedtime story to Remy, the other character, because Remy can't sleep. And in the script, it was very thought out.

It was a philosophical, poetic story about a black hole and a boy falling into a black hole. And of course, it made sense for the script, but it didn't make sense for them because Aidan told me, I would never say anything like that. And I said, what would you say? And he said, I would make up a story

of a duck and a lizard. And I said, wow, that's very different. And as he was telling me this story, I thought, see, this is perfect because he's confident enough to tell me that. And in listening to the story, I knew he had understood everything about the film. That's really interesting because the story of a black hole would feel very probably writerly and metaphorical and not naturalistic and documentary but there are also filmic flourishes like the the thing that resonates very strongly visually with me is i have saw the film months ago but the idea of the

flower farm and this place where beauty is kind of harvested and that there is like a kind of work-like attitude about something that feels untouched in the real world, I thought was really powerful to look at and to think about and the way that it kind of evolves throughout the film and the role that your main character has to it. So how do you balance something like that? Where you say, I have this idea for powerful images that can be read deeply or interpreted versus making something feel like it is happening and that we are inside of it and balancing those two. And maybe just talk about the idea of the flower farm too, because I think it has a personal resonance for you. Yeah, it definitely does.

Well, I think it's about, you know, for me, the most important, it's what i prioritize of course i want to seem smart and metaphorical yes i do but my most important thing is that i want to take an audience someone who comes watch this film on an emotional journey and i know that that so much happens through the authenticity of what these young characters say and show. And so I know that I have to prioritize that. I know that I have to prioritize the heart over the head. And I know it's a quite baroque thing to do because I know that of course we all like to show I mean there's this

we sometimes we love to show we're intelligent yes yes but um look at me explaining my questions I know beautiful you are really intelligent but it's I wasn't pushing for that but um I kind of want to show and listen more to the heart and if that that's just i feel like it's it's for me it's become more and more important um do you have to check your ego to do that though to say let's junk what's on the page and you say what you say no i i really feel like my i really feel like and i have also artistic collaborators that all feel that way because with Frank our cinematographer of course we have thought out months in

forehand what a shot should look like and exactly and that with the timing and the mise en scene but if these boys do something differently and if they go somewhere else we both agree that we should follow their rhythm their energy and should not try to limit them to

something we have imagined for them. I think it's, yeah, it's about, and I think there my documentary and fiction background really come together. I really want to listen to the moment as much as something is prepared. And I really also want to stay in the moment when I'm making. And this flower farm, I mean, it's the first image that came to exist and that I saw is this image of two boys running freely through the flowers. And I think it's first, there's the unconscious

because it's an image very linked to my own childhood. I grew up on the Flemish countryside, very close to a flower farm. And so I run through the fields as a young boy. And then when I started to think of the image consciously, I realized there were so many things hiding in it. First of all, this sort of pivotal image of childhood. It's two boys in a color book running freely. It's like, what could represent childhood more than that image? And next to that, I thought in a film that is so much about the confrontation between

fragility and brutality i thought the flower is also the ideal symbol to represent that fragility of life but also of the human nature. And so in this film, I thought, how am I going to express that transformation of tonality? And I thought, when these flowers get cut from the fields, when these colors disappear and these machines arrive

with brutal sounds to cut the flowers from the fields, actually only through the setting already, we express that transformation. The colors disappear, the earth and the browns come up and this beauty gets shed from the fields. And then maybe there is this possibility for it to return again. I also thought it's incredibly interesting

to have to follow nature and work with nature on a shoot because as much as in the beginning, this idea, of course, of the flower farms, we all were really excited about it. Then we realized we had to actually shoot it and had to actually shoot different seasons because these flower farmers,

they're not going to cut off their flowers if it's not the season. Right. So we had to shoot in summer, spring, autumn because we really wanted to show the passing of time through nature. And it was an incredibly challenging element of the production,

but I think incredibly rewarding for us now seeing the film because of course the film also tackles the topic of grief and and therefore i think that showing time passing by showing just and showing it through the fields is um is an incredibly rich element for for the the sensation of the movie it resonated with me um that idea of grief and the idea of a different kind of intensity especially in the second half of the film what did you find that you were directing your actors especially young young actors differently

how do you navigate especially some things that they may not even fully understand that you're writing about and trying to explore. I mean, I have to say that how I work with these young people is, so of course the casting, incredibly important. And then at the last stage of casting, I let them read the script. And they know we're only gonna read it once because what I want to avoid is them learning the text literally and them becoming

performers of the written page I make clear to them that that is not something i look for and actually they're really relieved because what scares them most is learning memorizing yeah yeah so they're like oh relieved so they read the script and we talk very openly about the topics um we talk about masculinity we talk about intimacy we we talk about intimacy, we also talk about grief. And I mean, these boys have grieved.

And we talk about guilt. And I mean, of course, in a way that is accessible to them. And they say, like I said earlier, they say incredibly complex, intelligent things. So I don't feel like there's anything that you can't discuss with them if you do it in an accessible, open way. Of course, the script allows for us to discuss some things more than others. I think the real darkness is left off screen which is necessary and i think um good because that way we don't have to address that too much with them um i do a little because they know what this is about i mean because they're intelligent and i want to discuss it with them and then we rehearse

for six months i know that's an incredible luxury, but we spent, I guess, most of the budget on that rehearsal because they have never acted before. They have never been in front of a camera. And when you say rehearse, a lot of people imagine that you rehearse concrete scenes and you do a scene over and over. I do the complete opposite. I never rehearse any concrete moments. What we do during those six months is we spend time together. We go walk by the seaside. We watch their favorite movies, my favorite movies. We talk.

We make pancakes, a lot of pancakes. And what we will do is sometimes during those moments, I will say like, hey, why do you think Leo would do that in the script? They'll be like, huh? And they'll come up with an answer for themselves. And it really, I see the excitement in their eyes because they become active. They become detectives to find out why their role is what it is. And it becomes an extension of them, first of all.

Then they also meet the crew members, not all at once, but just in small one by one so that they have become accustomed to the idea of that group. It's not when they come on set that all of a sudden they're overwhelmed with all these people that would never work. Then also very early on, I bring in a camera and it's maybe the most important element in the rehearsals because I bring in a camera and that camera will be filming us also me as we are walking as we are talking and it's not because the camera is rolling that I ask them to do anything differently so actually we are being documented and I think this notion that it's not because the camera is rolling that they have to perform or do anything differently is an incredibly

important step in creating those naturalistic, authentic performances. Because it becomes this object that is there as we continue doing what we do. Then of course, when we're on set, sometimes we will adjust and find and balance and volume, but it already has become an element in the room, this camera. I think it's very much about creating family. It's very much about creating intimacy. I remember saying to Léa Drucker, who plays one of the mothers, when she asked me, how do you see this collaboration? What do you think is

important for you? And I said, the most important thing for me is for you to love Eden. And she told me that again after the shoot, because it had it had struck her really and it's true I mean I build up these connections between the actors and I spend a lot of time doing that because I think it's the ideal fundament to have them go into deeper emotions during the set because they are have built up that connection so profoundly and I really believe that you sense that in this film i definitely i mean i definitely do did you develop that technique is there are there other filmmakers who use that approach is it specific to to to younger actors that you would use it

i don't really know if it's a tech it's just something that really felt like I wanted to work like that and like I said I think it's really because I I learned so much from documentary and because it intrigued me this this notion of incorporating documentary in fiction I have that feeling a little bit also when i watch uh the beautiful films of chloe zeo like i have that that sensation of it's fiction we know that but there's this beautiful documentary sense and raw authenticness to it that they absolutely admire um your films have things in common very also very intimate handheld up, up-close looks at your characters, your stars, your figures, but who, to us, feel like real people.

I could probably talk to you about your film all day. I think it's really quite wonderful. I am fascinated, though, by sort of like everything that has happened since it premiered. It premiered at Cannes to acclaim. You won the Grand Prix. You find yourself in this jet stream of international celebration.

You're on an awards campaign. Your film is being released in the United States. Does it feel like, and your first film was very well received and celebrated, but this does feel like there's an elevation. And it's interesting to hear you say that you started out making zombie movies and sinking boat movies I suspect that you are being approached to make bigger things to get take jobs in Hollywood

like what is what is happening for you or going to happen for you now that close is is has been so well received yeah I think we've been incredibly lucky and privileged to be on this journey where we feel that there's so much emotional resonance to the film. And what is always interesting is to see how different cultures, backgrounds, people react to something. It learns me so much also about life. I was going to say filmmaking, but I want to say life. I was going to say filmmaking, but I want to say life.

I get so many beautiful testimonies of people after this film who connected to a wound that they had carried with them and were able to reconnect to. I feel like we so often go through lives and there's so many things that happen to us that we're only able to place or confront so much later.

So that's been incredibly rewarding to feel the reaction of an audience in that way. Like I said, for me, what is important in what we do is I have to to start from that place where it really really comes from my heart so I have to start from a personal place in order to to make to then afterwards leave me behind and make it universal so this is a process that I try to do every time and of course there's and there's now this moment of visibility and a lot of people engaging in really interesting conversations. I think it's just going to be about what is that next desire. I feel like every film, because you spend so much time with it,

you've transformed a little bit afterwards. Like your desires have changed and i think i need a moment of time to know or get to know what the new desire is i admire that lucas we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen certainly seems like you are quite a cinephile yes what have you seen recently that you've loved oh so many things i've loved saint omer uh which is the french uh oscar international oscar submission i have really loved that film can you tell me about actually speaking of of documentary and the collision yes i mean there's certainly something in common there. What resonated with it's a film about motherhood. It's a film about racism.

It's a film about this, of course, judgment system. And it's just a film that completely drew me in also because of the incredible performances of the actresses. I will never forget. I'm not going to spoil it, but at the end, there's a speech. There's an incredibly important speech that just gave me the chills. It's someone who also comes from a documentary background,

which I think we can clearly sense, worked in a very different way. The mise-en-scene is very different, but she dares to also stay in a frame, on a character. In that sense, it reminded me sometimes of Chantal Akerman. But even the color palette of that film, the browns, the colors,

it's just, it's mesmerizing. I think it's an incredibly rich piece. And it stayed with me for a long time afterwards as i was leaving the theater it made me reflect as the best films do on on the human condition uh and um it's one of the it's one of the strong films i saw um in recent times, I'm also quite obsessed with After Sun. Because, like I said, I think we really have to destigmatize talking about mental health. And I feel like that film does that in such a powerful way. Like seeing that character of a father

and just really seeing him for me also as the child of other parents. With the trauma and the things kept inside and the things we cannot access just worked out so wonderfully, so beautifully. That would be a very intense but very beautiful triple feature to show Close and Saint-Omer and Aftersun. But I appreciate it.

Lucas, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much. Thank you to Lucas. Thank you to Amanda. Of course, thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. As I said, tune in later this week. We'll be talking about Sundance 2023. See you then.