The Big Picture - The 2024 Alternative Oscars, a.k.a. the Big Picks!

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

Sean and Amanda are joined by New York Times film critic Wesley Morris to hand out The Big Picture’s very own Alternative Oscars (32:00). They've included a handful of categories they’ve invented, as well as alternative nominees and winners in the major Academy Awards categories. Before digging into this exercise, they open by talking about ‘Dune: Part Two,’ as well as the state of ‘Oppenheimer’ and director Christopher Nolan as overwhelming Oscar front-runners (1:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Wesley Morris Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the real Oscars. That's right, the alternative Oscars. The big picks are back. That means Wesley Morris is back on the podcast. The New York Times is, what, critic at large? What is your title?

I think critic will do it. Okay. I mean, at large, I mean, we go through this every time, but like, just critic.

I'm a critic at the New York Times. That'll do it. Okay, chief genius. That's what we've landed on. Wesley, we're going to talk about the awards we would give out later today,

but you know, everybody, the known movie universe is talking about Dune Part 2. Dune part two, biggest movie of the year so far by far, uh, it made $82.5 million domestic here in these United States, $182.5 million worldwide. It's a sensation. It's a large format IMAX sensation. And you haven't seen it I have not I was gonna you know it's funny I don't get invited to screenings anymore by the big studios the the the smaller studios they will they would love to have me whenever whenever I can come I try to go as often as I can to their movies as well but no I didn't I said so if I can't, if I don't,

I mean, even going to screen, it's like my, my, my movie going exercise, I'm not, I'm flabby basically. Um, and I go through these, I'm bingey also, like I will go through sprees of movie going where like, I'll spend a whole work week just doing nothing but going to movies. I mean, movies that are already out, by the way, not things that have been set up for me to see. Like I'm paying money to go to the movies all week. And I kind of like it, although when you do it during the work week, it's a little lonely because it really sometimes it's just you watching, you know, how to blow up a, you know, oil pipe or whatever that movie was. A pipeline. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. There we go. What's your preferred time of day during the weekday, Wesley? Oh, I like all the time. I like 10 to 4. Me too. 10 a.m. to 4 p.m.

I do a lot of that as well. And it's me and like, you know, three senior members of the Pasadena community. Yeah. I have a take that they should start screening movies at 8 a.m. I feel like I'm in my 8 a.m. era. Like I really want to start the day with a film and then go to work. But you know who's not in their 8 a.m. era? The person who has to let you in.

That's true. That's who's not feeling 8 a.m movies i'm such a an avowed and devoted cineast though that like i should just have a like a fob that allows me to go into any movie theater in america and as long as somebody can just press play on the dcp like you can trust me you know i'm just there to watch we train you to do that and it's just sort of a self-serve part of my long-term plan, you know? The other day on the press box, Brian Curtis was like,

would you ever want to direct a movie? And I was like, no, I don't want to do that actually. But what I do want to do is own a movie theater so that I can wake up at 8 a.m. every day and go downstairs to my grand movie theater and just watch a movie. That is my dream. That's what I want.

Can I just say, can I just say, you said the words that reminded me of the problem with this scenario. And the word is DCP. I know. Well, I'm just trying to be realistic. I know. But the problem is when you,

even when you go to these people's houses and watch these movies, they're just doing what you would do in your living room, but in a theater they built at the bottom of their house or like on the side of their house or in the back of their house. And I think that's wonderful. I think that's a wonderful use of your money.

But I wonder if you go to Steven Spielberg's house, right? If you go to Martin Scorsese's house, is it just Netflix in a theater too? I don't think so. Or is Martin Scorsese loading a projector? Yes, I'm almost certain that Martin Scorsese's screening room, which is famed amongst the film fanatics of the world,

that he is running canisters. He's running reels of movies. What about Paul Thomas Anderson? Well, I can't he's running reels of what about paul thomas anderson well i can't say i don't know anything about his yeah we haven't been invited yet yeah spike lee i don't know i know he uses nyu sometimes to do that i can get answers to these questions actually we're all journalists that's true okay well i'll call paul and i'll find out we could just find out um Yeah, you know, you're right. And it's not just that you have to have a projector.

It's that you have to have the films, which are increasingly rare, which makes it challenging. And the sound setup. Yes, yes. And appropriate seating. I'll be installing 4DX rumble chairs in my movie theater. I did think about, I was like, should we do a stunt episode where we go see Dune in 4DX? I want to do it. I do want to do it. Well, maybe is that how I should see it?

Do you want to come with us? I'll text you guys. That would be really fun. Are you curious about Dune? Like, how are you feeling? Do you feel like you know too much now? Well, okay. So, I mean, Sean, you don't know this about me, Amanda,

but I feel like a way to get Sean to roll his eyes at me or to be reminded like, right, that is why we're different. And that is why I'm me and you're you. I think Denis Villeneuve is a fraud. I do remember this. He goes on my fraud filmmaker list. Because you and Bill were podcasting and i think it was during bill's amy adams rant um which his story i i agree with for the most part but you know he's out on amy adams yeah he's out on amy adams and you both noted during this screen that you're out on Arrival, which is one of my favorite films of the last 15 years.

So I did know that about you from afar, Wesley. I, too, have given you pause to think about, okay, anything that I say may be related to anything. But I will tell you that, because we haven't had a Dune conversation, I watched the first one when I was living in Austin. And I didn't, I don't think, I think it hadn't, it either was in theaters for a week and had gone back to HBO before it went back to theaters, or it started on HBO and then went to, I don't remember.

I think that's right. I think it was day and date so it was on the same day it was available on both. But it was only available for 30 days on HBO and that's why I remember because we had friends who showed up at Thanksgiving and were like, tried to watch that last night, no longer available. Yeah, so I watched

it on a laptop. Oh. Shame on you, Wesley. Shame on me. Shame on me, but here's what I'm going to tell you. I feel like there are filmmakers in my fraud category where they figure out a way to be honest about what their priorities are as filmmakers, right? And I think that you know

christopher nolan's dunkirk for me is an example of like here's a fraud director who is being honest about who they actually are yeah wow and dunkirk is is the first honest movie that the first successfully honest movie that christopher nolan has made where he's just like, you know what? I don't know anything about the following 25 things, but you know what I do know something about? And, you know, my pretenses as a filmmaker, I can bring something about like vehicular travel, right? And my interest in the military,

whatever sort of like passing boyhood interest I have in military activity. And, you know, my interest as a British person in, in, in a kind of British military history. Yeah. Stiff upper lip.

Stoicism. Yeah. And, you know, my little, my little Christopher Nolan, Arthur pretense of time and time and space. Can I just give the listeners at home a brief window into it since they can't see.

Wesley is standing while podcasting, which is an incredible setup. He looks very professional. And we just got a wonderful Christopher Nolan auteur shimmy. A bit of a shimmy shake. Yeah, it was a shimmy shake, arms and hips. So it was beautiful. Yeah. it was a shimmy shake, arms and hips. It was beautiful. I'm a Christopher Nolan dancer. This is why you are truly fearless and the GOAT.

At the moment when both Christopher Nolan and Denis Villeneuve have been basically crowned as the two filmmakers of the 21st century, you're like, those guys are frauds. That's just incredible. I just don't, I don't, I don't understand it. But, but this is, this brings me, brings me back to Denis Villeneuve. I watched Dune on a laptop with very good sound, right? Like I had really good cans. And I, I was, I was really mesmerized by the first one. I found the plotting preposterous as a person who is only, my knowledge of the book has come entirely from people in my life who've read it. It's a little like Game of Thrones that way as a literary experience. It's a literary

experience. It's entirely secondhand. But, but you know everything that's good about his approach to filmmaking is is evident here and it proliferates and in the first movie and so when when the first one ended i'm like well when's the second one coming yeah me and you both because first of all i I just felt like, for as long as it is, I don't remember how long the first one is, it didn't feel long. And I think because there's nothing important happening in these movies,

the stakes are so politically, thematically, like, it's a world unto itself. And yes, there is a passing correspondence allegorically to whatever is happening in our actual lives, planetarily. It's not a serious film. And I didn't need to take it that seriously. And there's something about the ultra seriousness with which he is making this movie that just relaxed me in a way.

Because the stakes are high for him him but they are low for me i definitely i i was very excited to see the second part of this mostly because i don't know what happens and i don't know everything about every production choice was right you know even the music which you know i can i could i could take or leave that that that moment this moment this era we're in where it's like you know the drone wrong and nolan's responsible for that i mean it's hans zimmer yeah to the max yeah i i think that you will be i think maybe pleasantly surprised by two and that i think it is both a little bit less self-serious, but also simultaneously significantly more serious. Like, I think the Javier Bardem aspect

of it, I think- Sure, there are people who are finding ways to express themselves in that film. It is still- As performers? Yes. Yes. Okay. Oh, that's exciting. Yeah, and it is. And he's very funny. It takes itself very seriously. I'm curious to hear what you think about what happens and how the movie expresses it. Oh. I just, you know, and some of that is just, I have not read Dune either. I've read some Wikipedia pages.

So what's coming next is also just love to have a philosophical discussion with you about that anytime you're available. But I think you'll like it. I think maybe you should see it with someone. Oh, well, you know, the reason I didn't see it this weekend was because my guy was like, I don't want to see that. And I was surprised because, you know, he reads, I mean, he is the science fiction person. He's one of the science fiction people in my life. He reads, I mean, maybe I'm going to say names that aren't, maybe they're more in the fantasy end of things than Dune is. I mean, not than Dune is.

I mean, Dune couldn't be more in that realm. But maybe Dune is like at an extreme not than Dune is. I mean, Dune couldn't be more in that realm. But maybe Dune is like at an extreme that he doesn't care about. But anyway, the point is we didn't go this weekend. I'd want it to, but we wound up doing other stuff. But I'm going to try to go this weekend. That's my goal. Because I do want to see it in a movie theater. I do believe that if I'm ever going to appreciate and not want to argue with what it is, I do honestly believe that Denis Villeneuve is good at. It's going to be on his exhibition terms,

which I think are entirely being overwhelmed by the sound and images that he has orchestrated. And I think that that's, you know, I said this last week on the show, but I think that this is, this was the movie that his career has been leading up to, you know,

and even though he has made much smaller, more intimate dramas, he's made even arrival being a kind of a smaller scale sci-fi epic. He's been building up experience to make something that is as straight-faced and majestic as Dune Part 2. I like the 40X idea a lot. Let's do that. The next time we talk about this movie,

it will be after having seen it in 40X. Is that a deal? Yeah, I have heard reports that there is a lot of shaking. Yeah, I mean, sure. I am a little bit nervous about that. I don't like that. I mean, shy hallelujah, you know? Let's do it.

And then I think that there is a water element, but that is tricky because we're in the desert. Do they splash you with the water of life? I don't know. I just, we'll see. I would love that. Blue Gatorade in my lap? Let's go. You don't know what I'm talking about.

I don't want to spoil this movie for you. I don't want to get wet at a movie where I'm not the person generating the moisture. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want a movie to wet me. Yeah. Is it a sexual film, Dune Part 2? Oh, my God. It has sexual imagery.

It has borrowed from, you know, all parts of the nether regions. No. Oh, no, no, know, all parts of the nether regions. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, it just, there are a lot of recreations of more intimate parts of the body. And that view of the world has shaped the production design. So. I mean, what is a sandworm, but an epic phallus. Oh, well. Yeah. I don't know if that's really what's gonna do it for me but right okay I mean again but but Amanda you actually at you raise a great

point about now this isn't fair to to my to my fraud like philosophy but it's a part of it does this artist understand people does this artist understand what happens when they get together right is this a person who understands what sex is how it works what attraction is and how it how it expresses itself between and among people. And I have no proof of that from this man, right? His, what turns him on is, is like physical physicality,

you know, anything, anything somatic, right? Anything that can be like exponentially made somatic, like, like, and physically realized.

Nolan is the same thing. Nolan is like, the bigger, the louder, the more chaotic, the harder I am. Not me, Wesley, but me, Christopher Nolan. Right. A direct quote from Christopher Nolan. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, what's the the but you know I mean what are the what's the

most laughable what I mean what I don't know where we rank the laughable moments in Oppenheimer but like what is the moment we can all agree is probably the most laughable I mean it's the two sex it's yes it's the one it's the one That's damn straight. And then there's the Florence Pugh sex scene. And by the way, I know I'm about to have my house moved into the East River for this, but I mean, Florence Pugh gives the best performance in that movie. Wow. I just, I'm sorry. I'm just going to say it.

Sorry, RDJ. I don't know if I fully agree with that, but I was very pleased to see Florence Pugh in the film, as I'm just going to say it. Sorry, RDJ. I don't know if I fully agree with that, but I was very pleased to see Florence Pugh in the film, as I'm always pleased to see her. I burst out laughing both times that I watched that sex scene. I mean, it's so hot. They have that in common, and this is a function of a lot of great filmmakers

who seem very serious based on the material that they make and the kind of the expectations of the movie. This is something that was true for Kubrick as well, where, you know, Kubrick's movies seem very stiff and cold and he was so reclusive that it was hard to know. But, you know, most of his movies are very funny and intentionally so. And I think there's an open question when it comes to Nolan, when it comes to Villeneuve, there are a few filmmakers like this right now who I think have a sense of humor,

but the way that they choose to exhibit that sense of humor is sometimes misunderstood or mischaracterized, you know? And so I'm not saying specifically that the Florence Pugh sex scene is meant to be a joke, but there is a kind of dark abstract humor to some of the things that he's doing in Oppenheimer and other movies I guess so I don't know if I think that that one's supposed to be funny and I'm I agree with Wesley that there is like a kind of sterile intellectual rigor to the way both

filmmakers make movies which creates like technical and epic wonder. And sometimes you bump on the emotional motivations of, of any of the characters. Everything. Yeah. And, and Wesley, we won't talk anymore about June 2, but like come back and talk about that. Uh, because that was one of my things was, and some of it is, is just so much plot. But, you know, the one thing I kind of bumped on was tracking how quickly the motivations changed and why people are doing what they're doing. Decision making. Yeah, yeah. No, I think there's some truth to that too. And Oppenheimer's a very similar story.

There's a lot of a person's life crammed into three hours. And so there are jumps at times where you're trying to make sense of why those decisions are being made. But I do think that there's a lot of humor in both movies. I know that seems ridiculous, but I don't think that those guys are Kubrick, but they obviously both idolize Kubrick. There's no question about it. They are at times putting on the Kubrick cloak and saying, like, I will be the Kubrick of my generation.

Well, if we're going to talk about the Oscars, like by not talking about the Oscars, can we talk about the Oscars for a second? My next question for you is what are you expecting from this year's Oscars? Great segue. Well, I actually want to talk about it. Yeah, let's talk about it. Because it's going to win a lot of Oscars, right? I think, you know, it's probably going to win everything but costume, supporting actress. Screenplay is still great. Screenplay.

Screenplay it won't win. I don't think production design either. Probably not. Is that Barbie or poor things? I think it's poor things, but yeah.

You know, I understand why this is happening. I understand. Well, do I understand? I think it's poor things, but yeah. You know, I understand why this is happening. I understand. Well, do I understand? I guess I understand. I just have not read, spoken to anybody who has convinced me that there is either... It's not even something that I'm arguing with. I haven't even read anything that I want to, like,

I'm not even arguing with the people who love, who claimed, I mean, I don't want to say they don't really love the movie, but like, I don't feel any passion from anybody about Oppenheimer. Do you know, like, the Barbie people, to just pick one of the other Best Picture nominees, the Barbie people, I'm a Barbie person. I don't know if it's my favorite of the 10 best picture nominees, but anytime I talk about Barbie, I am so surprised by how passionate I sound.

I feel like I don't hear anybody talk about Oppenheimer with any of the kind of passion that even past lives people do. Well, but you know why this is. I mean, one, it's the overdog and has been for six months. This has been the leading contender to win pretty much since the movie was released and never gave up its spot. I mean, we never moved it out of number one and we ranked these movies for six months. In addition to that, it's the second biggest movie of the year, I guess, third biggest movie of the year. And it's also a director who's been at the top of Hollywood for a long,

long time. So like no one has any sympathy or even the need to feel like they have to defend it because it's in the, it's been in the power position. It's been the most powerful movie of the year. Right. I mean, is that,

am I, am I, no, no, no, no, that's, but that to me is the only case you could make about the film. It's not. I mean, not I mean, you can make other cases, but that to me is the is the only case where I'm like, I don't even want to defend against that because that is just factually true.

But that has nothing to do with the movie. Yeah, but this is the Oscars. How often does that have anything to do with the movie? But, you know, it's funny that you say that because I just feel like we have to really rethink the way this whole thing works. The idea that, I don't know, I mean, in a weird way, like, this is a classic Best Picture, right? Classic Best Picture winner. Except I actually would rather see david lean's oppenheimer

than christopher nolan's um because david lean would have made he would have made some choices right this movie is taking all these parts of the book and just i mean i won't go so far as to say it's throwing them at the screen, but it doesn't really, I mean, I don't know. I don't really get the sense as a person watching this story. It doesn't even unfold. It just kind of like pops up here and there and circles back on itself and then, you know, takes you under an overpass and then you're on an, you're on an, you're at an underpass and then you're in a tunnel. Then you're flying at, you know, 50,000 feet above earth and it's not fun. Like I'm describing a ride that he,

that he's built, but I don't, my hair's not being blown. i'm not laughing with glee my stomach's not falling into my groin none of those things that happen on a ride are happening and also and i feel like this is a little bit important for this movie my brain isn't doing anything um it is not doing this i had no intellectual bodily sensory response to this movie really at all. I actually kind of wish it had blown some water on me at times. And yet, here we are talking about it being the sure, far and away best picture winner. And I just, in all of the reading that I have done by other people there's a Justin Chang piece sort of like responding to that I really liked it was responding to the people who are

mad at it because they think it sort of elides the Japanese perspective yeah yeah I mean I don't know I mean that that piece was great because I'm with Justin on this one. That is not this movie's problem. And, you know, thank, I mean, also, I mean, I think Justin says this, but like, what if he had done that? Yeah. Y'all would be so mad. Y'all don't even know. It was the right decision for Christopher Nolan to not go there. Yeah, I mean. It's also just a different movie.

I could take issue with everything that you said because I personally have a very different reaction to the movie. Like, I do think that the movie works intellectually and physically. It happens at different times. It's not, they're maybe not simultaneously happening. And we like to have those two things together sometimes. We like to feel deeply and then know that there's something corresponding. And the movie is a bit sectionalized, as most Nolan movies are. They are sort of like the sum of their parts.

They have to be the sum of their parts because he's constantly dissecting their structures and the expectation of when you get information. But I know for a fact, I know people in my life who are having that, who have that relationship to it, who felt moved or who felt, you know, that thrumming thing inside your body

when you're watching something that you really like or who felt like parents age um no no no i mean i think that there's a generational thing here with nolan i think that like the kids who grew up watching the dark knight movies are now getting into adulthood and their adulthood is now they're getting the oscar movies of their adulthood you know I mean? Like the same way that it took him 15, 20 years to get recognized for the things that he does well, they are now at a place where maybe a movie winning best picture might be more meaningful to them too.

I mean, you know, this is all just like vague generalization. No, no, no, no. I like this. I like this. I like this. This is why this broadcast is probably going to have the most people watching it in 25 years. I don't think that long, but I do think it's going to be up.

I'm very nervous about the start time. You both know it starts at 7 p.m. Eastern. Yeah, but it's daylight savings. Nobody's going to know. I know, but people aren't used to being home in front of their TV at 7 p.m. or 4 p.m. here. Well, then we'll see the Nielsen spike up at 8 o'clock. I don't know. I feel like a lot of people are going to watch it.

All right. I'm very curious. We'll talk about that more later this week in terms of how many people will watch it. I do think there's obviously a bigger interest in the award show this year because of Barbie and Oppenheimer, but also that inevitability factor with Oppenheimer. I wonder if that will diminish the interest, the fact that it has been this steamroller for months and months. I don't know. What do you think?

I don't think it's going to be a huge, huge spike. I mean, people have seen these movies and Barbie is nominated and Ryan Gosling is performing I'm Just Can. Thank, you know, thank goodness, I guess. I feel really conflicted about that and we can examine it some other time. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's your conflict there? Well, in general, I'm opposed to the best original song Oscar on principle.

Oh, my God. And I feel— What? Well, okay, Wesley. I'm Just Ken is the exception to the rule because that is an original song that was written to be included in the film. It is textual to the film. It is developing the story, the character. I also think they should have submitted the Lizzo song to that point. You know, I'm still very angry that Dua Lipa was snubbed, but that's a different, again, that's a whole other podcast. Yes, yes.

But for the most part, original song is we got a famous person who you love, and I love many of the famous people who have won these awards, to write a ballad that we are tacking on to the credits of this movie. And it has nothing to do with the song itself and then we have five famous people who i do like come out and sing their ballads with varying success over the course of a three and a half hour telecast and it just it comes this whole show just comes thudding to a halt you know like ballad number four to celebrate like Flamin' Hot, the Cheetos movie, which is a thing that's going to happen on this podcast. We're all going to sit there and listen to an inspirational song from Flamin' Hot for four minutes. And it's just like I have different things. And Eva Longoria somewhere is like, made you look.

And I have different, I just have better things to do with my life. You know what I mean? Do you though? Do you? But Amanda, Amanda, what you're talking about now is not, it sounds like you're making an argument for against category fraud, which is one of my, one of my many Oscar pet peeves, but not the abolition of an entire category with a storied history and many great nominees and winners. Well, sometimes you just have to make strong decisions, you know, to fix a problem.

And this is one where I'm just like, the only, the easiest solution I see is get everybody out of there. So. We should get Hillary Clinton on this. Get, stop it. So I'm Just Ken, which is my second favorite song from Barbie after Dance the Night Away by Dua Lipa. Not nominated in this category. Mine is Lizzo and then I'm Just Ken and then Dance the Night Away. Are there any Radiohead songs in the Barbie soundtrack?

Oh my God. The Dream L.A. is very important. I enjoy it and i i will enjoy seeing it recreated but that goes against my core principles with relation to the song category and also performances at the oscars so that's my conflict wesley that's where i am you asked i'm with that you're talking all right that's fair but we're talking about a production problem and a change in the in the priorities of movies problem right yes because what when we talk about best ending um i do want to revisit this subject okay oh i'll just leave it at that oh okay do you think it's going to be a good show wesley obviously kimmel's back i i

think jimmy kimmel i think jimmy kimmel is the best host that any show could hope to have. He will take what the thing is there to do seriously. He understands what a host's job is, which is to walk right up to the line and maybe even put a foot over it and then bring it back immediately. I think if anything goes off the rails, if anybody gets hit, punched, cursed out, like the wrong movie's title gets called,

you know what I mean? Like if anything like that goes down. Nothing like that would ever happen at the Oscars, Wesley. I don't know what you mean. Someone getting hit at the Oscars? Jimmy Kimmel is the person you want to be there. Not Wanda Sykes. Sorry, Wanda, but I mean, she was probably backstage, like, doing therapy on her friends,

right? She had, she, like, that became something second, like, hosting the show just was not her job anymore. And neither was, it wasn't Amy Schumer's and it wasn't Regina Hall's that night either. It just, nobody knew what to do. But Jimmy, Jimmy Kimmel would have known what to do. more um and neither was it wasn't amy schumer's and it wasn't regina halls that night either it just nobody knew what to do but jimmy jimmy kimmel would have known what to do um so i think the show will be in good hands i can't you know one of the things that we officially now love about award shows honestly um and this is probably always true but it's been very true in the last 12 years you

just you don't know what's going to happen. Um, and when we were kids, the most exciting thing that happened at an, at an Oscars is like Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon. Like we, um, I think a little bit of that needs to come back a little bit,

but like in tandem with just all of the stress these people are under, um, forcing them into just wacky bizarreness um i don't know i just feel like i think it's just gonna i'm in suspense about what's gonna happen and it has nothing to do with what name is in an envelope will you be watching the oscars you will be this year you'll be checking it out okay that's great with you thank god um let's talk about alternative oscars so we've done this, I want to say,

four out of the last five years together. And there are really no rules except that none of the movies and performances that we'll be recognizing here would be,

are being recognized at the Academy Awards. So for example, In the category. In the category, yes. Right. So the movie's not off the board entirely,

but for example, you know, the movie's not off the board entirely, but for example, the Zone of Interest is not up for Best Picture and are alternative Oscars, even though the Zone of Interest is an amazing movie that probably isn't going to win Best Picture and be cool to give it an Oscar in this case, but it's already being nominated. It's already being recognized.

So we're going to find alternatives to the Zone of Interest along with the other nine nominees we also have created many many new categories here some of which i think should be immediately added to the show some of which are a complete pipe dream um and you know one of them actually is going to be a part of the academy awards in 2026 the best casting oscar have you talked about this yet that they added the best casting Oscar, Wesley? Have I talked to anybody about it? While it's being recorded? No, I haven't, but I'm very excited about it. I, you know what, it raises a lot of questions for me about what it even is, right? I mean, and I don't mean like I don't understand it, but I think

it really is going to hopefully, if we are doing our jobs and the people that we work with do theirs, like I think it'll be a real opportunity to sort of enlighten most people about what goes into getting the people in the movies in the movies, right? Jane Jenkins and Janet Hershenson, they're two of the most important people in in the for for our era of movies and things we were watching from when we were kids to you know i mean that we're still

watching basically um you know those nancy myers movies like um i don't know a beautiful mind i think they did did they do Poseidon? They did Parenthood and they cast Joaquin Phoenix in Parenthood they're credited with discovering

Leonardo DiCaprio Apollo 13 a lot of Ron Howard movies in the 90s I mean so I'd be like they wrote a book the point

the only reason to bring them up honestly is they wrote a book that kind of explains how their job works and I read it a long time ago,

and I was really fascinated by what it is casting directors do. And they're really, it's hard work. And sometimes you watch a movie and you're just like, you know, I mean, we can talk about this when we get there, but I'm just, anyway, I'm excited to see how the show, when this category debuts in, is it 2025? I think it's in, it's in 26. So, so we have to wait a little while.

Also, how do you, I mean, quote campaign, unquote for it. I mean, a concept that, you know, another thing about the Oscars I can't stand. But like how, if you're them, do you campaign for something like that? I think that the directors will have to do a lot of the work there they'll have to help explain the work that because because casting directors are often putting actors in front of directors and saying this is the kind of like it's this kind of character this is the person you're looking for um that's obviously not true when casting like the movie stars the movie stars are often part of a larger equation in terms of getting the film made

and who a writer director is thinking of while writing the protagonist. But, you know, a movie like Oppenheimer, you know, there's like 30 supporting parts in Oppenheimer. You know what I mean? That's like, that's a big job for a casting director. Somebody has to be like Krumholtz. Exactly.

Don't even think about it. I think that was actually Nolan in this case. Oh, it was? I do. Oh, okay. Well, that's powerful. Crummy, though, I don't know. God bless Crummy.

I forgot to nominate Crummy here on this. Do you guys know that Josh Hartnett has four children? Are any of them with you? No. What a shame. Yeah, that's tough. He's such a tall man. He's such a tall man in a movie of short people.

Yeah. Dr. Lawrence. It's a pleasure to I mean I will say one of I mean I hate to put it this way no pun intended by the way

one of the highlights because they're all in his hair of this movie is is like being able to look at Josh Hartnett yeah

I did enjoy that this is what I'm saying Wesley the the annual recipient of the I have Christopher Nolan's haircut and Christopher Nolan's movie award goes to Josh Hartnett so shout out to him yeah a long line of beautiful actors have taken that part right best first feature this feels like an obvious award to add to this show it's an award that the independent spirit awards gives out it's an award

that other critics groups give out um chosen a bunch here how do you feel about these these picks i think they're good we made the decision not to include two very notable first features this year that are in fact nominated for best picture are you referring to past lives in american fiction i am referring to those but since they were nominated for for the big prize it seems like they don't need to be featured do you think that was wise yeah i do we're we yeah I do we're trying to we're trying to broaden the field here we look forward to Celine Song

and Court Jefferson's next films the five nominees in this category The Artifice Girl Rye Lane Talk to Me They Cloned Tyrone and A Thousand and One Wesley you okay

you comfortable with these nominees? uh yeah I do think I want to just say that um one thing about past lives in american fiction okay um it's just like you know they just they do make you want to see the second movie which i think is the is one of the great things you could say about somebody's first movie um and a thousand and one of these five is the also,

well, they cloned Tyrone, I also think. What are these two people going to do, A.V. Rockwell and Joelle Taylor, next? I don't know. What is Talk to Me, by the way? That's the horror movie, the Australian horror movie. Oh, yeah! With the hand. God, I saw that australian horror movie oh yeah with the hand

god i saw that so long it's by far the biggest hit on this list of first time features yeah i mean talk to but there's so many talk to me's like how dare you jesus christ i mean i'm sorry there's a familiar frame but a well-done version of a there's the pd what's his face story that that uh uh casey lemons did there's a lot of talk to me. Oh, that's true. That's true. But anyway, I think of these five, I'm going to vote for A Thousand and One. That's one of my favorite movies of the year.

You want to strike a secondary vote? Well, I just like to advocate for Rylane. Just we haven't said anything about it. And some of it is that it's a romantic comedy set in London. So sometimes you just have your own taste and preferences right and you're just it sounds like you've got juliet litman's right now like say more well that's one of the core um foundational uh interests of my juliet's friendship um but you're an anglophile too oh Oh, yeah. Come on, Wesley. Listen, if you are the New York Heat Metal Littles, I have a lot of thoughts for you. I know, but like, I mean, you know a lot, but I'm Anglophile.

I mean, what is a person who has a lot of knowledge about something, but you're not dispassionate? You're definitely not dispassionate. But I don't know. You take these people to task. I don't know. One of the thrills task. I don't know. One of the thrills of listening to you guys talk. Well, oh, Sean. No, no, you know, you've landed on something that is unique to Amanda. Obviously, the Amanda experience at large is unique, but that you are willing to be expert, but also cutting about the thing that you care about and are expert about at times, not always.

I just, I hold the things I love to the standard that I hold myself and that I hold everything else, you know? So I expect people to excel. The Anglophile thing, I think that I might be more of a British rom-com person than Juliet even. That's probably true. Because she is not really in the Richard Curtis school the way that I am. Like, no, we have not done a Four Weddings and a Funeral We Watchables because no one will do it with me. That was like, Bill was like, if you can find someone, you can do it, like two years ago, and no takers.

Oh my God, I'm not even raising my hand right that's really interesting that's what i'm saying like i just by the way i think it's like the 30 year anniversary of that movie like today um wonderful film taught me a lot uh about about not quite asking for what you want in a romantic relationship, but hopefully getting it anyway. One of the signature features of all romantic relationships, at least in the 90s. That movie was on the other day. And I watched it from, oh wait, maybe that was Notting Hill.

A top three for me. Notting Hill is, I mean, because it's the Julia plus the Hugh Grant. It's really powerful stuff. It's a Notting Hill that I watched the end of a couple days ago. Yeah, I'm just a girl standing in front of a boy. Four Weddings and a Funeral is a better movie than Notting Hill. It is. But I don't know if I could, it would be me, it'd be me doing my least favorite version of myself on the rewatchables, which is like. It's okay.

The one person of the three or four of us that that is just like why are we here yeah but that's okay anyway riley in the tradition of but a very feels directly inspired by richard curtis inspired by but also feels totally new and vigorating it's the romantic comedy has died a thousand times now, but it's still pretty much dead. So I, Rainn Allen Miller, like, did it.

And if you haven't seen it, check it out. Very well shot and beautiful to look at as well. But I'm, A Thousand and One is... I've not seen it. Oh, it's lovely.

That's the one of these I have not seen. I think you dig it. It's good. We talked about it. I think both of these movies were Sundance movies too. Actually, Talk to Me was a Sundance movie as well.

I'm good with 1001 though. Okay. 1001 is our winner for best first feature. I completely agree with what you said, Wesley, which is that it will be exciting to see what Avia Rockwell does next. She came out of the Sundance Institute, and I think that film started as a short too, like so many other movies like this.

Yeah, it's got a lot of that in it, but then there's a central lot of that in it, but then it's just, there's like a central unknowability about it. It's still withholding something, which Sundance Institute, they work real hard to make you not do that. To make you share. To bang that out of you, yeah.

There's really some tension here that manages to survive the beginning of the film to the end of the film. Um, and cut a tragic movie that is not cloying, you know, there's like, I mean,

we can talk about this when we get to, to the acting, but, um, I just really like how it doesn't want you to feel good. Yeah. About anything when you leave. And I,

I really admire that, which is very not that institute so next category we have six nominees breakthrough performance here are the nominees

Andrew Barth Feldman no hard feelings I'm proud of that nomination Charles Melton May December Tia No More Earth Mama Dominic Sessa

of course from The Holdovers Kaylee Spaney from Priscilla and Iman Valani from The Marvels. I love these. I think these are good picks. Yeah, this is another category that I feel is a no-brainer. And Wesley, I know how you feel about category fraud,

but I think the amorphousness of this is actually to the benefit of benefit of you could really just you could get people at the oscars who wouldn't otherwise be there who you want to see i don't understand why we can't have this category how do you even prove what a breakthrough is i know it's like it's like best new artists and i understand that there could be shenanigans. But if we could have these six people at the Oscars, it would be a better Oscars. So when they- One of them's definitely going, right? I mean-

Well, so when they used to give out the juvenile acting Oscar, the kids Oscar- Oh, Once Upon a Time? Once Upon a Time. Yeah, like when Hayley Mills was performing, the Oscar would actually be physically smaller. It was a little Oscar. It was a little Oscar.

It was a little Oscar. And so I wonder if this should be a little Oscar or maybe it should be a different statuette or something else to indicate that. Because, you know, some people say like your first Oscar is supposed to be like this incredible thing. So if we start giving out breakthrough Oscars for small parts to young people. We give out three short film awards at the Oscars. If we are giving out that,

which is basically breakthrough films for, you know, people who are able to secure funding and who know people. So if we're doing short films and it's a regular size Oscar, then you can give these nice young people a regular size Oscar too. Okay. But, but,

but Amanda, there's a clear sort of scientific standard by which to determine something, a short film, right? No, there's not. Many of these films are 85 minutes long. Like, what are we doing? That's not true. And I can't see them. There is a time limit.

We are at the week of the year where I am just absolutely done with the short films branches of the Oscars. Like, break up this junta. I can't. It's like 45 hours. I can't see any of them. I don't understand this. You were nominated for an Oscar. You can't see any of them.

You can definitely see them now. They're very seeable. They're not streaming. You know? It's like, come on. Oh, you got to go to a movie theater and watch them. It's a special event. No, listen, I will, I signed up for Vimeo. I will rent your short film from Vimeo for $3.89.

But like, make it available. What are we doing? I think there's, it's tricky to screen the shorts because they're not a guaranteed box office, but they don't play for very long, even in a city like Los Angeles where the Academy Awards are held too so there are some challenges I've managed to see them all but you know I do my job you know you must be the other guy I have until Thursday um all right listen I I hear you but there's just no way I would I would

I would love to see these people nominated for oscars these six people but like i need i need something more concrete than a quote breakthrough unquote i just don't you want to put you want to apply some for us right now like could is it no more than five film credits to your name something like that oh maybe maybe that would be that's a good one oh i like that that's using your noggin. All right, sure. Like the- Like, is Kayla Spaney, does she apply for that? I'm Googling it now, but you know what? I'm not asking you to take it off the board.

Wait, this is the no-brainer winner, by the way? Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Okay. You think Kayla Spaney's the no-brainer winner? Oh, I thought that's what he was saying.

No, no, I'm not saying that at all. I guess she has more than five credits. You didn't think that she was good? I thought she was fine. Okay. I think that like it's a, it's a, it's. Sometimes, once again, we just have to have our little corner of the world with pink toenails and not being able to express anything out loud. And Jacob Elordi is very powerful and then we hear some Dolly Parton and we move on. Okay?

You know, not everybody has to go through that but it's just, it's my little corner. Sure. Yeah. I mean,

I don't even object to her being here. I just wouldn't You wouldn't pick her. That's fine. I wouldn't give her the little shots. So she would not be eligible.

This would be her sixth feature film credit. Okay. See, the other thing is And thank God she got to appear in The Craft Legacy because that really worked out well. But she's going to be, isn't she cast in something like some military action? Civil War.

She's the star of Civil War. And she stars with Kirsten Dunst, who then suggested her to Sophia for Priscilla. So it's like the passing of the torch, which again is very important to me. Okay. Because it's like whatever. As with all things, it all leads back to Alex Garland. I just didn't know.

Okay. Okay, so you're writing for Kaylee Spaney. I mean, I'm open to other. I'm glad that she was nominated. I'm glad that we didn't institute the five credit limit before this podcast. But it is a good one to think about. It is, yeah. It's a good one to think about.

My vote would be for Charles Milton. I, you know, the last time we were on a pod together, we talked about May, December. You had some mixed feelings. Wesley, Amanda, you liked it, didn't love it. I loved it. It was one of my favorite movies of the year.

Did either of you get kimchi from Charles Melton? I didn't. I'm not on those lists. Did you know about this, Wesley, that he and his mom were making kimchi and sending it to VIPs?

I didn't get any. I feel, I mean, again, this is another thing we, I mean, this is a whole other conversation that I don't want to derail us from what we're here to do. But man, this campaign stuff, man. I'm going the other way.

Like, let's send me everything. Nobody can win. It's just, no, Sean. No. Send it all to me. Cartier necklaces. I want one. Send it over.

You can't even accept it. I would also accept a Cartier necklace. Yeah, we don't work for the New York Times. You can't accept it. We don't work for the New York Times, Wesley. I'm a Spotify employee. You gotta send it back. No, you can't keep that.

I mean, you can't even take an ice cream cone from these people. Netflix sent out Snoopies for Maestro, like stuffed Snoopies, which is now one of my son's most prized possessions. Alice as well. Inspired. Yeah, it's really, really good. And Snoopy sleeps with him every night. So it's okay.

We accepted that. Are you willing to admit now that your warmth for Maestro is completely derived from Knox's relationship to the stuffed Snoopies? I liked a lot of parts of Maestro. I love Maestro. I was really, really, I was really honest about all parts of Maestro. I love Maestro. It's a silly movie that I love.

I was really honest about all of my Maestro feelings from the very beginning. I have been very honest about my feelings about Bradley Cooper's campaign since the beginning. And boy, is it continuing. I identified that early on as a show to see. And he has delivered in that sense. With respect to Maestro, there's those of us who have seen it at a movie theater and there's those of you who watched it at home. That's all I'm going to say about that.

Listen, I, the man is a filmmaker and I love the idea that Snoopy, that somebody figured out that Snoopy is a shorthand, right? Because Snoopy is a shorthand for, Snoopy is a shorthand for the? Because Snoopy is a shorthand for... Snoopy is a shorthand for the, like... For all of it, right? For, like, what a great filmmaker he is. But also for, like,

kind of what the emotional stakes of the movie are. Yeah. It's kind of a hot air balloon, you know? It's full of gas. It's just... Well, I mean... mean i mean laughing gas um like no i mean really like why is he not nominated for best director it probably has something to do with what you're saying sean right like the i don't know i don't want to

belabor this let's go back to the breakthrough performance thing what would be your vote for breakthrough i'm gonna vote for andrew barth f to vote for Andrew Barth Feldman. Yeah. When he sings Maneater on the piano. Oh my God. That is really good. That's an incredible movie moment. Yeah. Just a great movie moment.

That feels like it was pulled out of like 1987 and just works so well. That guy is a star. Like if we made movies to put him in anymore, he would be in stuff. I don't know what this guy does now but i don't know that moment in that restaurant like is very good it's a great it's just like oh my god he's so good so good i'm trying to imagine a world in which you accept andrew barth feldman as the winner in the category over kaylee spaini all rightlee Spaney. Listen, as I said, I just wanted, I thought that I was very judicious

in the number of Priscilla nominations that I put in, which was just this one. Oh, good for you. So I just wanted to say that I enjoyed the film Priscilla. I did think Dominic Sessa, well, he was the second best part of the holdovers after Dave- Dave Andre Randolph in my opinion so I'll take to me in a movie that Paul Giamatti is absolutely cooking in but okay

well your mileage may vary we're all here to have shared opinions to me I think the greatness of that movie is that they're all perfect for those parts and they all work together their chemistry works and so the movie works because they work together um i i wonder if your opinion of dominic suss would be different if he didn't look like bob dylan 1967 on the red carpet every single day of the week right now that is powerful stuff did the did the new york times crown him the king of runway fashion or something? That's only a question you can answer. Yeah. I feel like there was a piece that we ran that was basically, it wasn't anointing him.

It was basically observing that he's at all the shows. Yeah. Like very prominently and is now like a fashion person. Smart move. He definitely is. Smart move on his part. And like a different segment than all the fashion, the Loewe boys, like the Josh O'Connor and the Joe.

Yeah, anyway. I like Andrew Barth Feldman as a pick. I feel like it's in the spirit of the show, which is how do we make this show different from the Academy Awards. I love it. Best cameo. I also enjoy this category.

Here are the nominees. Bradley Cooper, Dungeons and Dragons, colon, Honor Among Thieves. Donald Glover, Spider-Man, colon,

Across the Universe. Parker Posey, Bo is Afraid. Margot Robbie and Jeff Goldblum in Asteroid City. I'm glad that you added Margot Robbie in here

because initially it was just Jeff Goldblum and he's very good but I was just like Margot Robbie. I mean, you could have done it as well. We're working as a team here on this I was going to on the podcast but just an opportunity to dunk on me yes exactly that's not very nice uh this is what I'm dealing with is someone laying in wait looking for an opportunity for me to make a mistake

and then the last nominee of course course, Martin Scorsese, Killers of the Flower Moon. What do you guys like here? Well, here's what I'll say. I mean, one, I don't, you know, before I go to these movies, I don't read very much,

especially if I'm going to a screening and not going as a civilian. So I don't know what I'm going into before I go to a film. But I did see Bo is Afraid as a civilian on opening weekend,

and I didn't know who was in it because I hadn't read Manola. I didn't read anybody's review. I hadn't listened to anybody talk about it, and I didn't know she was in it. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, is she going to stick around? And, you know, what happens to her happens to her. But she's really good while she's there.

But there's only one winner in this category. Who is it? It's Scorsese. Yeah, it's gotta be. It's Scorsese. I mean... I was afraid you weren't going to say that and get mad. Let's just leave it at that.

Okay. Because we're talking about the end of the movie where people haven't seen it. Just Martin Scorsese. I agree. I agree as well. Nice. Unanimous. people haven't seen it. Just Martin Scorsese. I agree. I agree as well. Nice. Unanimous.

We love to see it. Okay. Best kid performance. The threshold here is 17 years or younger. You have to be a minor effectively. The nominees are Amy Donald for Megan, Abby Ryder Fortson, Are You There Goddess Me Margaret,

Ariana Greenblatt, Barbie, Milo Machado-Grainer, Anatomy of a Fall, Sonny Sandler, You Are So Not Invited to My Bat Mitzvah. There's only one boy

nominated here, but my vote goes to the little boy, which I think is an amazing performance in a movie that desperately needs this performance

to be amazing. It's an amazing performance of a character who's still a little magical, understands all kid. You know? Interesting.

Well, we talked about this at the time, but he gives this speech where he suddenly understood what his mother needs from him and what his dad is doing for him. Wesley is walking away, arms raised. And he's just like, oh, and... You know, there's a level. People have complained a lot about the portrayal or like about the French court system as if the American court system isn't also an absolute travesty.

But the real issue here is that suddenly a kid is just allowed to testify and be like, well, I understand um the psychological yearnings of my two middle age parents what you're describing is story sure performance and i said that i said it's a wonderful performance of a slightly preposterous um character yes unlike amy donald's performance in megan excuse me as a robot movement is an incredible part of performance, and also Megan is not Megan without what Amy Donald brought to it, so. I don't disagree. I mean,

this is our only chance to talk about Anatomy of a Fall, correct? I think so, yeah. Well, there's one honorary award that we'll be giving this year. I'm not afraid to spoil it right now because it's our next category. It's Best Performance by a Dog. And that Oscar will be going to Messi.

The dog from that movie. I can't lift my leg on Messi. So let's just do it here. This movie is ridiculous. We all know. What the fuck? What is this movie like i i've seen plenty of french court system movies i have never seen this and the kid is in the shining and the husband i mean if she didn't do it i sure as shit was gonna yeah right amen like what a cock i mean just i hate this movie so much oh my god i thought

i thought it was my least favorite i thought i was like it could it be my least favorite best picture nominee could it could it could it could it i'm thinking about that i'm going down the list i think it's my i think it's number 10 wow i think it's number 10 preposterous find me find me something that like made me want to throw my seat at the screen more than this. And I like Sandra Huler, right? I think she is, she's very good. The kid, as a piece of, as a technical performer, the kid and the dog are fine.

But this movie is outrageous. Sean, you're trying to find me a better, worse... Well, it's a matter of... It's a subjective opinion. I think it's a very entertaining and absurd movie, but honestly, I think that's part of the point.

Like, it is a melodramatic movie. Can I ask you a question that might not... that I do actually think is relevant? and it's a spoiler so if you guys haven't seen anatomy of a fall yet you're not committed oscar watchers that's what i have to say to you uh but also cover your ears yeah but also fast forward so do you think that she did it well who else would have done it like that's the thing about this dumb ass movie all right who else well there's a there is a good theory and i like the theory that i'm i'm i have vacillated a few

times when i've watched this movie as i've talked about on this podcast on what i think happened not that it really matters but some people think the dog may have done it and that the bouncing ball down the steps at the opening of the movie, Wesley is walking away. Wesley just took off his headphones and is walking away. You think that's a good theory? I just think it's funny. I just think it's good. I mean, oh my God. I think it's fun to discuss that.

You know, that the dog accidentally scared him and he flipped and fell. Whatever it takes is what I will say. Whatever it takes to get that man out that window. Whatever it takes. I think he's a loser and he fell. Okay. You guys woke up feeling generous today. Let me tell you.

Why are they even married? The need to lose a fraud and anatomy of a fall stinks. That's where we're at right now. I don't think it stinks. I enjoyed it. We had a riveting conversation where Sean was like,

oh, she definitely did it. And Sean's like, she's a sociopath. And I was like, you're a sexist. She is a sociopath. It doesn't matter whether she did it or not. No, she definitely did it. And Sean's like, she's a sociopath. And I was like, you're a sexist. She is a sociopath. It doesn't matter whether she did it or not. No, she's not.

I need more time. Amanda, Amanda, Amanda, Amanda, Amanda, Amanda. She's a sociopath? This movie lays it all out in that sequence where she's hitting on this woman downstairs. While that asshole is upstairs being his full asshole self right it's not a girl power thing that she's hitting on the person who's interviewing her she's a fucking nut she's crazy she's also a really person in a bad marriage he's playing bimp on the steel drum on repeat because she's driven him crazy because he can't finish the fucking attic renovation that he

did in the house that he made them move to on a top of a mountain. You just, you know, just too much girl era in your life. It's not a girl power thing. I mean, I don't think she's a nice person. I don't think I would want to be married to her. You know? I'm not defending him. I'm not defending him.

I just don't think he should have been pushed out the window. That's all I'm saying. Okay. Should this kid win this made upup award is the big question, you know? Should Milo get our fake Oscar? No, it's Amy Donald.

Amy Donald's the winner. Jesus Christ. It's not even hard. Okay, wow. Last year, you guys are going to be tried for murder in France.

suggested slash demanded that Amy Donald should perform as Megan at the Oscars last year because it was before the Oscars

last year. Didn't happen released before the Oscars last year. Didn't happen, but since Megan was technically eligible for the year in film being recognized, get Amy Donald at the Oscars. Thank you. It's a great idea. People love that movie. There's going to be a second Megan movie.

People are interested. Okay, next category, best casting. I like this category, the way that we've got it. I don't think this is the way that this award will be the nominees will be selected but here are the nominees american fiction bottoms may december salt burn and the zone of interest what do you what do you think about the choices here why are there four question marks next to salt well because salt burn has not been nominated for anything this award season i think we were both a little afraid to put it in a document that you were also going to be editing. I just genuinely wanted to get a response out of that.

But when I think about Saltburn, which I have a lot of issues with that I've talked about on this show. Wesley, we know you have issues with it too. I don't know. You were riding a Pegasus into Review Heaven as you wrote that piece about Saltburn. I think it's got a great cast who are going for it. And I think the movie would not have been the phenomenon that it has become without its expert casting. Now, whether or not you think the movie works is another story because that's not what best casting is. It's not best movie that works.

It's best application of the casting work into a film so that movie is one part discovery one part you know lifting a person into a role that they never would have had before one part plucking people that you wouldn't think would fit in certain parts and moving them into other parts anyway so i so i added i think i think that like based on the way you put that, Sean, I guess the way that certain picture nominees at the Oscars and the best cast at the SAG Awards, I feel like actors don't even know how casting works. Because the best cast movie isn't the best movie. It's just, I don't know why those things have to be, I mean, they can be synonymous, but the SAG Awards treats them as inherently interchangeable. And I don't, I think that's insane.

I think that the SAG Award Best Ensemble should look sometimes nothing like the Best Picture nominees. I agree. Yeah. Um, and I just feel like this is why I'm eager for this to become an official category at the Academy Awards because

it will begin us, you know, as a, as a, as, as moviegoers thinking about

what casting is and we'll have opportunities if, you know, if we're paying attention to hear casting directors talk about how they do their jobs. Like, remember that brief window where everybody was suddenly interested in Ruth Carter, you know, winning Oscars for Black Panther.

And, you know, Ruth Carter went on a circuit talking about how she does her job. Right. And like where she takes inspiration. Right. I mean, it's, I think that casting directors have a similar, this is a great opportunity for us to learn from these people who've been like doing their work in plain sight

and we have not been engaging with them for so, so long. That said, of these five movies the most inspired casting choice in american fiction to me is lucretia is my lucretia taylor who plays um leslie uggam's caretaker now maybe the the coup of the movie is getting Tracy Ellis Ross, Erica Alexander, Leslie Uggams, Myla Cresha Taylor, Jeffrey Wright, Sterling K. Brown. John Ortiz. Miriam Shore, what a gift! Having, like, maybe, I mean,

obviously getting all those people together, Adam Brody. Keith David, Michael Cyrilril creighton yeah keith david and and an oak okrieti uh um onawata onawa adonawan um that little bit talk about cameos those two guys in that in that one scene of the fake book um anyway but i think that that bottoms seems like to me the the the i mean the movie doesn't work i wish it were better um but the spirit of all those people getting together now i don't know if it was a cast that movie seems like it was just these people all are these all people all know each other right i do think that the kind of core triumvirate of Emma Seligman, the director, Rachel Sennett, and Iowa Dibbery are all, like, they came up at NYU, you know, they all do know each other.

But, you know, then Marshawn Lynch is also a teacher. That guy, Nicholas, like, Galitzin, who they've been pushing, Galitzin, like, he's been in everything. He has not worked for me in a single thing except for this movie it's really tough he's like supposed to be

the new heartthrob and I'm just like he's in a show with Julianne Moore now and I'm just like what? soon to be in the idea of you opposite Anne Hathaway

trust me I know but this he actually works in like the I think all of the the younger women in the fight club are very funny and memorable um and is that a casting I mean are we thinking about this as the work of a casting director are we thinking about this as like best people in a movie right how are we thinking about

I mean finding young actors for an ensemble is hard you You know, how do you know that Havana Rose Liu is going to be good in that movie based on what she's done before, which is mostly like scared girl in teen thrillers?

How do you know Kaya Gerber's going to be able to act? Honestly, like there are some things about the movie

that work really well. The Marshawn Lynch thing is clearly like an idea that somebody cooked up and it isn't like, well,

we went down the list and we've decided Marshawn is right for this part. It didn't work that way, but it's a very inspired choice. It didn't work that way. But it's a very inspired choice. Yeah.

I don't know. To me, like, this is American Fiction's win. Like, this movie is so elevated by, because it's a first-time director, you know, who is not thinking, like, visually the way that a lot of filmmakers would think about something like this. He's a writer first. He comes from television. Going the opposite direction. And he has absolutely loaded this cast

and whoever he was working with. I actually don't know the casting director's name. I should find that. With names we're familiar with and people whose names we've never known

but we always see all the time. Like a true murderer's row of character actors in this movie. And that is the work I think

of this kind of this kind of occupation that hopefully is going to be celebrated now obviously american fiction is getting a lot of laurels it doesn't need to win our fake award here but when you started going through the names wesley and you like stopped at a certain point and there were still five more names that you could say you could say like this person is an acclaimed new york theater actor this person is known for their work on television i mean always good people the four judges right yes the four actors who seem very familiar to me who are the literary judges we didn't even see isa ray the guy who runs the board that they're all voting on jc mckenzie who's just

always an asshole who's so good you know like there's lots of little strokes of genius in that movie but see again this is why like like talking this out and if the oscars are going to do anything important in the introduction of a new category i think it really is just having like having the director come out or having somebody involved with the movie come out and explain or even if it's just a presenter who becomes well versed in what it took to get these casts together for this movie. I think it's going to be a really exciting broadcast experience for the... I mean, I was going to say for the nerdy people,

but like, no, for everybody to understand how these things, these movies you love and the people in them who you love come together. That said, I would like to nominate the blue beetle or uh as as great just a great example of casting um and the reason i propose it is because the thing that's most and it's a little bit like american fiction in a weird way like the thing to me that's most compelling about it isn't the thing that you're necessarily paying to see, right? Like, you're coming to watch a superhero movie, but you're staying to watch, like, these six actors spend all this time together

and be on the same page for two hours. And it's just extraordinary. I mean, they're not together for two hours. The movie, you know, has a lot of detours, which is part of the problem with it. but i had a good time watching it in part because every scene that those actors have together is making the movie so much better than it would be if they weren't that's all no i agree the first before that devolves into the cgi bug battle it's very charming and it is because of all those people.

I loved it. Jennifer Houston is the casting director for American Fiction. She was also the casting director for a television show called Girls, meaning she found Adam Driver. Or, you know, I don't know if that's true, but that is— God found him, but sure. Sure, yeah. So I like the i like the american

fiction pick as well yeah american fiction of these five things that's a no-brainer okay it's very spirited discussion we have to move but i wouldn't have thought about that until we talked about it right like yes i didn't think about it they're gonna have to talk about it every year now at the academy i love it i love it huge huge deal for me having this category. I may have forgotten some things here in this category, but I'm just going to list what I came up with

for best stunt action sequence that obviously we all worked on together. The nominees are the Mille Miglia Race Ferrari, the Sacre Coeur from John Wick Chapter 4, the Brute Fight

from The Killer, the Battle of Austerlitz from Napoleon, the Motorcycle Jump from Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning. The Spider-Man Chase from Spider-Man

Across the Spider-Verse. And the No Diggity sequence from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles colon Mutant Mayhem. The only nomination. Bangers all. Great scenes. Bangers all.

I mean... Tough one to pick. And we also did limit to one stunt per movie. See, this is the thing, right? So, tough one to pick. And we also did limit to one stunt per movie. See, this is the thing, right? So do you want to do the Rome car chase from Mission Impossible and stuff? I just found that so much more impressive than that motorcycle jump. I mean, that was my favorite part of that whole movie.

I mean, Tom Cruise did actually ride a motorcycle off a cliff, you know, and then they filmed it. So I felt that that needed to be, but I agree with you. That's the best stunt, but not the best action sequence, right? Okay, right. Oh, tricky. You know, so it's complicated here. And, you know, what you want to see at the Academy Awards is you want to see best stunt choreography, and you also want to see basically most exciting sequence you know like some version right no i mean sound editing versus sound design yes exactly like or sound mixing sorry um like

you want the stunt right you want to honor the stunt craft but you also want to honor the stunt coordinator right or whoever sets up the the actual opera orchestration of a particular sequence. Or the stunt animator. How about that? Right. For example, the animators behind the Spider-Man film. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. Dingity-ding-ding-ding. Those guys and ladies, they really know what they're doing. Just putting that out there. Just rewatched that scene again yesterday. Delightful. This is a tough one. This is really a lot of work.

Also, the end of Dead Reckoning the train bit yeah oh yeah that's amazing that's amazing that's ridiculous yeah

no I totally agree I mean to me I think this has to come down to Mission Impossible and John Wick Chapter 4 those were the signature achievements

John Wick Chapter 4 I think is operating at another level with all of these movies because of the way that the films are authored. They're almost authored stunt first. And obviously Stahelski has proven himself a master at this stuff.

These are like... Sacré-Cœur is not my favorite. I know it's your favorite. along with the Rome car chase extravaganza in Mission Impossible are the two screwball entries in the action sequences of this year. And thus, they were my favorites because I did find them funny and engaging. I know you like the guns that shoot fire or whatever, and that's your right. But I'm trying to build a better society over here. Not only my right, but my privilege.

Yeah. I just think these are all great. I would just say one thing about the fight and the killer. Mm-hmm. Holy cow.

Yeah, they're punching each other. It can't win because it's not, I think, the intimacy of it. But that was one of those... I mean, all of these sequences,

the thing that you as a moviegoer want to be left with is how did that happen? How did they do this? And even in The Killer, a movie that I didn't like, but there are two things in it that I think are fantastic.

One is the woman who he pushes down the steps or whatever he does, like pizza in the head, like kills her basically. And this sequence right here, it's just holy cow. I don't know if degree of difficulty should be taken into consideration with something like that. Because when we were talking about Mission Impossible or Wick, the degree of difficulty is really high. Yes.

The degree of difficulty on a fight like that is also really, really high. Very high. Both those dudes could die. Yeah. You're referring to Carrie O'Malley, who you actually wrote about in your piece about the best performances of the year, which was an amazing piece. And there are times that people haven't read it.

She's so good. She's excellent in that scene. That fight scene is amazing. Obviously, my Fincher predilection makes me lean that way. I would go Wick Chapter 4 because I feel like it is like there are four or five sequences that if you're thinking of a cumulative effect,

I think there are three to four in Mission Impossible. So to me, I would just very slightly outweigh. I'm fine with that. Are we comfortable with Wick? Wesley? Yeah. I mean do it.

I mean, it's like, they're operating at an order of, like, it isn't even fair to have, it's kind of like being up against, you know, a Meryl Streep or a Cate Blanchett, right? Exactly, yeah. You just hope that, you just hope that they have mercy on you

as another nominee. Okay, best ending. I enjoy this lineup here. The nominees are Anyone But You, Blackberry, Godzilla Minus One, Killers of the Flower Moon, and Past Lives. Now, obviously, two of these films are nominated for Best Picture. Three of them or not um um i i think these are all worthy and they're great in very different ways they give you each one gives you a different sensation at walking out of a movie theater which is really all i'm looking for is something like ah hey yes like even anyone but

you which i thought kind of stunk yeah Yeah, but then Natasha Redfield hits. Gosh, I do love a movie, don't I? My vote would probably be for Killers of the Flower Moon, but you and I have talked about this and this ending a lot. I know you wanted to share

some thoughts too, Wesley, about this because it's such a major choice that is made that we learned actually during these long campaigns from Rodrigo Prieto that that choice was not in the original script

and that they shot the movie and then two months went by and then they added this to the end of the movie. I feel like the whole movie got made like that. Well, yeah. I mean, obviously, it got significantly rejiggered along the way. This whole movie. I mean, that's kind of... We can talk about this when we get to this to the to the other categories but um i think that

i love the anyone but you ending it it is offensive to me on on one level well i don't know the movie that movie kind of suffers from the people who made it not caring. Mm-hmm. But you know who does care in that movie? Glenn Powell. Yeah, he does. Glenn Powell really... Hardest working man in Hollywood. He, I mean... He gave it his all.

You know, I'll spare you my acting theory, like where I think acting is going and it's not good theory. We can talk about this later. But Glenn Powell gives me hope because this is a person who does not, his face is a gift. And I don't mean because it's handsome.

I mean, because it works. It's expressive. Yeah. Like he, his face tells you what he's thinking and feeling all the time, even when he doesn't have to. And in the end of that movie, when he is butt-ass naked

and her hand is about to go up his sphincter, he's still doing Natasha Bedingfield. And by the way, what a year for her. Big comeback. Yes. The royalty payments must be delightful. She and Sophie Ellis Baxter are like having the times of their lives. You. The royalty payments must be delightful. She and Sophie Ellis

Baxter are like having the times of their lives. You know, needle drop is a category I like to do too. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah.

Those would be two very high picks. Well, Sahlburn has several. Many, many. But anyway, I think of these five things, I mean,

it's Killers of the Flower Moon. Yeah. I mean, it's Killers of the Flower Moon. I think Past Lives is a pretty close second. It's tough that Past Lives doesn't get it in my opinion because

that ending when I saw it first time in the theater just took my breath away Elevates the movie significantly I had that moment of just being like they did it and I'm like moved by this and it really brings everything home

You guys You're such a hater You're such a hater And it really brings everything home. But... You guys. What? You're such a hater. I mean... You're such a hater. This movie ends... Like, do you remember the opening shot of this? Like, think about just cutting out the whole middle of this movie.

And just watching the opening sequence. And then seeing the ending. Yeah. What do those two things have to do with each other what do you mean they're perfectly matching it's them on divergent paths that their lives were never meant in this fate this version of their life sean you're talking about the narrative i'm talking about the framing right the device the device of the movie is two people who i mean i don't want to make any any unnecessary presumptions here but i think they're two white people looking at these

two asian people trying to figure out and you know this white guy who's also oh you're referring to that oh okay i'm not that's not what i'm referring to i'm referring to when they're little kids because when they're little kids because when they're little kids we see the image of them moving in different directions which is really

what the ending is matching this movie has a structural a major structural problem for me that like moves into the

metaphysical is how is how disoriented I was by the opening choice I wonder what

she would say about that. That would be an interesting question for her. Had nobody asked her. Yeah, I did. Like it never comes up. You did? No, I said I didn't. But also I was not thinking like, well,

let me tell you what my white gaze tells you about past lives. That's not, you know, I'm not. But Sean, I mean, why are we having these conversations if you can't say things like that? Well, I think I just wasn't thinking about it in that respect. Oh, that's fair. But I'm just, I mean, anyway, I also was thinking this is a great ending based on the people who talked to me about how much they love this movie and the ending like broke their heart. Right.

People felt connected to it. Yeah. I get it. There's one Glenn Close memorial it's time Oscar unfortunately Glenn Close has also never received this Oscar right

which is a real shame for her was she eligible this year she was she in a film I can't remember she wasn't in a film this year

she wasn't in a film did she retire did anybody no she's gonna be she's gonna clean up in Lee Daniels next year oh wow or this year

wow talk about a match made in heaven I think it's coming out. Wow. Yes. They are made for each other. That's incredible. She's going to go for it.

She will not win for a Lee Daniels movie, nevertheless. It's going to Cannes. If Monique can do it. If Monique can do it. Fair point. Fair point. Let's take a quick break, and then we're going to go to the real categories. Okay, so we've got the awards you know from the telecast. I want to make a quick point about something that I've been giving some thought to. You might disagree with me,

it might seem a little rash, especially because I'm always advocating for expanding the number of awards. I don't really understand adapted screenplay versus original screenplay anymore and it's the barbie thing that has got me thinking about it it's got a lot of people thinking hopefully they change it yeah i i actually think and i you know maybe like maybe a solution for this would just be 10 nominees for a screenplay category, which is what we're doing here. We're doing five, six nominees. But I, original and adapted is kind of meaningless 100 years into the American movie experience. Certainly, right now.

A lot of the best movies are adaptations of previously existing stories that are completely different from what came before. You know, I always point to A Star is Born, which is a movie that has effectively been made five times, but each time they make it, it has a different psychological character or narrative character.

So the more I think about the necessity of intellectual property for getting movies made now and the fact that originality is more difficult to get across the line and also the fact that films that seem original are often based on things and things that seem based on something are sometimes original, you know, there's a confusion going on there. So I think that there might be a strong case for

either combining these two categories or eliminating one of them or something, maybe similar to what they did with sound, you know, where they just said that it's not sound mixing and sound design, but just best sound. Any thoughts? I've never done either one of these things in a new and original way, right? way right um but i wonder if the designation being made or the distinction being made in these designations is is a legal one um and how much the law has to do with the maintenance of the categories i know there are a lot of bylaws but i also wonder whether or not we're talking about like the like actual legality too.

But you know, they're also loathe to give up categories. But I think in order to introduce a new category, maybe y'all should give up one. And this is a good opportunity to think about doing that. Well, let me just give you like another example from this year that represents, if not a contradiction, kind of a paradox of the concept. Both Maestro and May December are considered original screenplays. But they have that thing that you are talking about, Wesley. They have something that someone was able to start with, in this case, the Mary Kay Letourneau case

and the life of Leonard Bernstein. But the way that they're constructed is quote-unquote original. So I just, you know, it's been on my mind. I mean, I agree with you that the rules themselves the distinction and then the enforcement of the distinctions is blurry at best certainly there are instances of category fraud to wesley's point and also that the way that it's being done right now doesn't make a ton of sense i am kind of loathe to take away an award for writing. It's cool that there are two writing awards. And I do actually think if you, in a big picture sense, there is the act

of writing an original screenplay, the act of writing a screenplay is a different act than the idea of adaptation, which is like a very rich and interesting topic all on its own. And, you know, one of our nominees and best screenplay is Killers of the Flower Moon, which is like a really fascinating work of adaptation and the choices that it makes and the way that it tells the story, like that it is based on the way that it uses the book. And many people didn't like it so you could

get to a place where they are actually separate awards honoring different things obviously we're not doing that right now i would be curious this is a great greta gerwig question right because she's been she's done it all at this point right right? And from the standpoint of the way the Academy thinks about these things, she's basically done it all as well, right? Like, it's, she's officially adapted a screenplay. She's officially written an original screenplay. And she's officially fallen into this weird lacuna between the two, but landed in one of the categories at the same time but but ridiculously right um so i don't know i'd be curious to hear what she would say about not the oscars per se

but about the process um and what what if anything the distinctions are among the two processes. I think the nominees this year are actually pretty good. And so coming up, frankly, the nominees are often very good in this category. You know, original screenplay is often the safe haven of the film that critics actually like and does not just represent awards fodder. But, you know, this year in particular, because the 10 are so good this is a really good best picture slate um a lot of the films are represented here so it was a little trickier than usual there were a few personal favorites that we were able to add so here are the nominees

nominees for best screenplay are all of us strangers dream scenario how to blow up a pipeline killers of the flower moon and you hurt Feelings all very different kinds of films and in the right kind of year some of them would be recognized others would not you're not likely to see Dream Scenario or How to Blow Up a Pipeline

get recognized anytime soon although it used to be that more interesting movies did get screenplay nominations right? like if you look through the history of the like just like in the last 50 years

what some of the the screenwriting nominees were like you really got like a dream scenario wouldn't be such a stretch right yeah in the way that charlie kaufman would be recognized and that's a very charlie kaufman inspired kind of movie yeah i mean i don't think it's the best script i think the ending is terrible and yeah it kind of falls apart at. I mean, I don't think it's the best script. I think the ending is terrible. Yeah. It kind of falls apart at the end. It dies in the last 15 minutes. But I think the first two acts

are really good. Yeah. I agree. Of these five movies or scripts, I mean, I think You Hurt My Feelings is definitely,

it's the best one for a number of reasons. definitely, it's the best one. And for a number of reasons, like it's got a great scenario. The stakes are really fascinating and it's got all of those wonderful asides in Tobias Menzies, uh, therapists office, right? Um,

where all of these couples bring their stuff are these people sorry these patients bring their stuff to him and of course like the one the the couple played by um uh david cross and amber tamblyn amber tamblyn i mean they're i don't know i just feel like that, to me, has the lowest, highest stakes. Yes. And is the most complete in its... Well, How to Blow Up a Pipeline is also true of that film, too. I just think that the writing is so much better and you hurt my feelings. Yeah, I mean, How to Blow Up a Pipeline is another example of adaptation, of people reading or taking what was like not a

narrative book um you know just like a philosophical tract and being like how can we put these ideas on the screen and i think like the inventiveness and also like the propulsiveness of that movie really works it's an ingenious concept that i think is elevated by the editing like i think the movie ultimately works because it's so well edited, but you couldn't have edited it that well if you didn't have this framework, this idea to make what you're describing into the, what it is. I think it's a,

I think it was a great shout for as a nominee. I like, you hurt my feelings a lot too. I mean, I think it's something that the Academy doesn't recognize as much for a variety of reasons. Like the dramedy is basically a dead genre you know like it's not the james l brooksian you know it's a very kind of broadcast news sort of story right about a

creative person in a world that is elaborate but modest and approachable with very defined leading characters and a funny greek chorus surrounding those characters like it's a framework that like we the three of us love in movies. I like it as a pick. I like it as well. Did you see that there's a real life version? A couple weeks ago, New York Magazine launched an advice column and they verified, or they say they verified, that this is a true thing and not someone summarizing, you hurt my feelings. A woman wrote in and she is a novelist and she is like 85% certain that

her husband is creating fake or like burner Goodreads accounts to trash all her work. And I really want to know who this person, I really want to know who it is. So if anyone out there actually knows, but yeah, it was a New York magazine advice column. so i it if it can come true and also hold your interest i i'm i'm for it even better okay you hurt my feelings wins best supporting actor we've got seven nominees this just we love to celebrate men on this pod here are the nominees jamie bell all of us strangers dave batista knock at the cabin george lopez blue beetle holle, Holt McCallany, The Iron Claw, Chris Messina, Air, Dar Salim, Guy Ritchie's The Covenant, Tao Yu, Past Lives.

I love every single one of these performances. I love most of them. I love all the actors, I will say. But Jamie Bell, I don't like all of his strangers. It does not work for me. Not one part of it. And it's unfortunate because I like everybody involved with this movie. I just didn't believe one drop. And I like...

You brought a blowtorch to the spot. It's unbelievable. I just didn't care. Also, Andrew Hay, not a magical realist he's just not I knew the minute this thing got underway what was going to happen and it's not because I

read anything beforehand wait so what do you think actually happened at the end well I mean I know what happened you know I just choose to believe it's all happening in his mind it's like a moment like a life flashing before your eyes kind of experience

I just didn't I just didn't care there were a lot of conspiracy theories that like the building burns down the first night listen I didn't do it I just cried a lot I like wept at this movie and it was because of the it was because of the,

it was because of Claire Foy, who is like my kryptonite and, and Jamie Bell and Andrew Scott and, and the parent stuff. And once like they're all in the bed together and reminiscing about like all the things that the, the life that they didn't have as a family. I mean,

I don't know. I guess I'm a mark, but I was like openly weeping. So that part of it really spoke to me. It's, you know, Paul Muskell's great. He's going to have a lovely career. You know, he's the gladiator. He's already having a lovely career. I know. And tomorrow he'd be fine.

So that part was not whatever. But for me, it was the parents, which is why I put Jamie Bell and Claire Foy and not Paul Meskel. I'd like to just put in a vote for Holt McCallany. Oh, let's talk about it. He plays first Ron Eric, the patriarch of the von Erich family, the man who drove his children, his sons to a life of professional wrestling and a life of emotional insecurity.

And it's just amazing in this movie. So much so that I recently on my For You tab on Twitter was served a video of him defending Fritz von eric during a press tour because he had clearly gotten so deep inside of this performance that he's rationalizing to himself the insane things that this character this person in the world did within his own family and it felt like one of those things that you see all the time which is actors playing villainous figures and then finding notes of empathy for their experience so that they can not have to feel like they're spending

their days doing something terrible. you got a detox, buddy. Yeah. He needs to be back. Still, he is incredible in this movie and utterly convincing in a movie that is like, you know,

not always utterly convincing. There are a couple of times where you're like this, you know, as Bill Simmons has noted, um, the, you know, Carmi is a little short for that part. That is not Ric Flair in that movie. I love that movie. I was over the moon

for that movie. But Holt McAllen, I was like, that is, he doesn't look like Fritz Von Erich, but I was like, that is the embodiment of what this guy represents to wrestling history, to this family, all this other stuff. As the wrestling novice and i did not know the story before i went to see before i went to the premiere which was quite an experience um but so he just immediately communicates exactly what's going on and there

is like that moment in the kitchen you know where i realized what like really was gonna happen but from frame one he was just this dad who is pushing his kids too hard and they're gonna do anything they can to get his life you know it's just like you know the bad show dad yeah today you're my favorite tomorrow you could be mine and he was so convincing and so communicative that i was like okay i get what's going on um i like all the all the nominees in this category but i'm also happy for holt yeah david fincher stalwart best supporting actress viola davis air katherine hunter poor things claire foy all of us strangers ann hathaway eileen vanessa kirby napoleon and rachel mcadams for are you there god it's me margaret a lot of

chatter about how if only Lionsgate had shelled out some more dough, Rachel McAdams would have been at the Academy Awards this weekend. Alas. Do you think it's that?

That's what you think? I'm so naive about this stuff. I don't know. I've heard it said. I mean, she's so good. People like her. Yeah.

I mean, like, whatever, whatever, your Claireire foray amanda is my rachel mcadams probably oh really where you're just like i just like i don't know i just have an irrational fondness for her i like i love her and i thought that her character and and i mean i i actually i thought the whole movie was very lovely but the way they The movie's good.

They developed the mom character sorry for mom blogging some more but Talk about an adapted screenplay by the way. Yeah.

I mean very moving and she's so good. Yeah. It is a very smart way of reframing that story somewhat in certain parts of it

that it's not just entirely on Margaret's shoulders. I don't know this is a tough one. I like this I like these nominees too where do you go wesley viola days yeah it's kind of weird that she agreed to do this half the performance is on the phone yeah i love that yeah it's good she's good phone acting is a thing that she's got also there's a there's so every one of her scenes there's such an understanding of what she's doing in it right those scenes in the boardroom where chris tucker is is like basically

doing what she would recognize as with that care what dolores jordan would recognize as as like a little buck and shuffle for these white people. And she kind of is giving him this like bewildered, you know, young man, what are you, why are you acting this way? Look, I mean, there's so much subtlety in what she's doing here. I can't believe that, I don't know what, like, again, to Rachel McAdams' point

about like who spent the money't know what, like, again, to your, Rachel McAdams point about like, who spent the money to do what? I don't know why air wasn't more of a, of a factor in any of the conversations about best anything toward then originals, like adapted or original screenplay. I don't know what, I don't know what we would call that one,

but like, I just feel like that movie is so good and so smart. So much smarter than it even seems like it is. Amanda is a hater for air. I'm not a hater. I cannot be a hater for anything connected to the Ben Affleck cinematic experience. Okay? And I did almost put Ben Affleck in supporting actor nominee

for air, but I think Chris Messina was the better choice. Wesley, I'm not a hater. I just was, I mean, you know, it's, it's a bunch of guys in a room being like, we like marketing ultimately, you know? And that is just, I did bump on that. Welcome to America, baby! I know. But I'm like, I don't know that it has, I mean, it's a very American story, but I like my celebration done with some like knowingness, you know, and I like didn't quite feel the knowingness of what they were doing in the movie. Oh, wow.

I mean, I think it's the best movie I've seen. It's one of the five or six best american movies i've ever seen about capitalism and money like and what it means to like want it make it market and exploit um there's so many good scenes between i mean talk about a great script um there's a great scene between matt damon and marlon wayans at a bar when he's trying to figure out what the best avenue to michael jordan is probably going to be and marlon wayans has this speech about i mean these are real people so these things really happened and i cannot right now remember who marlon wayne's is playing um but at some point he talks about having been

present during the civil rights he was a member i think he was a snick person as a snick person he he was around martin luther king when they were trying to figure out the march on washington washington and um he tells a story and i'm not going to belabor the whole thing you should see the movie it is wonderful but the point of the of this is like there's this moment the speech that marlon wayans has about um receiving a copy of the i have a dream speech and the the the movie is so much about capitalism that I automatically thought, well, he obviously put that on eBay and made a killing or sold it to somebody,

put it on auction. And the movie so knows that you are thinking that, that at the end, one of the captions is, nah, he didn't do that. He kept it. He still has it.

He never sold it. Held on to it. There are some things in this do that. He kept it. He still has it. He never sold it. Held on to it. There are some things in this movie that are not for sale, right? And I just think this is such a smart and honest movie about race and friendship. Like, the white guys are friends. The black people are transactions.

And the black people know that that is the case even the stuff that i think is mildly heavy-handed about the like the born like their realization while they're coming up with this campaign late at night about um jason bateman's character's realization that born in the usa is not loving how great america is but it's the opposite like he, he's, I don't, I'm not a big Jason Bateman person, but that is a very good use of Jason Bateman. Like, having,

like, an epiphany about something that we all, we all on this side of that song already know. But to be there in his moment and realize it

is something, like, the movie is set in, whatever. We're at best supporting actor, or where are we? Best supporting actress,

Viola Davis. That's all. I mean, I think air is a wonderful movie. I'll add one note about air that I think is working against it. And maybe this is because I know a little bit about the production of the movie. But when you're watching the movie,

there are sequences that you can tell are straight from the screenplay. And there are also sequences that you can tell have been widely improvised. And that's because folks like Matt Damon and Chris Tucker are on screen who really know how to shift and move a movie like this around, especially when they're being directed by their friend Ben Affleck. Jason Bateman, another expert, you know, riffer, so to speak.

And so some of that movie feels very constructed and some of it feels really loose. And if it was all loose, it'd be one kind of movie. And if it was all constructed, it'd be another kind of movie. I don't know which one would have been better, but there is a little bit of an unevenness is a critic word you hear a lot of times. There's an unevenness to that movie that holds it back from me holding it in the esteem that you're talking about. There's a lot of stuff I like about it though. And it and it is i don't i personally don't have misgivings about movies that are quote-unquote celebrating capitalism because it's an examination of how things work like it's a very honest examination i think for the most part how things work i agree whether or not you want to

spend your time watching that is debatable but you know white men in their 50s sitting in rooms is kind of how a lot of American history has operated. So, it's not like it's dishonest. I just don't think, I think Viola Davis is very good. There's also a movie that's about Michael Jordan

and his parents that is like kind of a good movie that we don't really get to see. I'd like to see somebody take a crack at that movie too. Yeah, sure,

but that's a completely different operation that I don't want to see Ben Affleck do. Well, I agree with that. Yeah. This is the movie, this is the movie Ben Affleck do. Well, I agree with that. This is the movie Ben Affleck can do, right?

But somebody should go write Michael and me story told from two perspectives, Mama Jordan and Papa Jordan, you know? Because he's got complex relationships with both of those people and those relationships have dictated the way he's lived his life. Maybe, but I also don't want any more biopics. Okay, fair enough.

I'm fucking done. But wait, can I say one more thing? I know we got to go, but like Vanessa Kirby, not Vanessa Kirby, sorry. Catherine Hunter in Poor Things. Who is she? Where does she come from? For anybody who doesn't know, she plays the woman who runs the brothel with the tattoos yes and i was actually i should have worked harder on my end but i don't have any power like i just feel like

somebody should have been fighting for her yeah she she was she was the witches um in the tragedy of macbeth she's a long time stage actor yeah yeah yeah real shapeshifter and she's got that incredible cigarette burned out voice that works so well in this movie she is so good she also should have been nominated for that

for Macbeth she's great in that she's really great so good okay four more categories the big four let's do them quickly best actor

Nick Cage dream scenario Joaquin Phoenix Bo is Afraid Franz Rogowski Passages, Andrew Scott, All of Us Strangers,

and Koji Yaku Show, Perfect Days. Quick takes. Um, Franz Rogowski and Passages. I'm very open to it. Sold.

Your award for him was the best backed acting, right? Yes. Yeah, that was really good and very memorable. But I mean, that character is...

Chaos. But like so specific and nightmarish and memorable, but also so recognizable. We all have, we've all known someone with that energy in our lives. Oh, yeah. And hopefully they're not still in your life. No, not mine. Best actress.

Anjanue Ellis, origin. Jennifer Lawrence, no hard feelings. Greta Lee, past lives. Julia Louis-Dreyfus, you hurt my feelings. Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman, made December. Together. They can't be separate?

I like tying them together. Okay. Tayana Taylor, 1001. You want to say anything quickly about Origin, a movie we haven't really spent too much time talking about on this pod? A lot of mystery, for one thing. Like, this is Ava DuVernay's adaptation of Isabel Wilkerson's cast. But, you know, where does that, what is it really, right?

If we're talking about adapted versus original, like, it's not a it's not an adaptation of the book strictly speaking it's about isabel wilkerson's making of the book like what led her to write cast in the first place and then if it's about anjanew ellis's version of isabel wilkerson reporting um doing the reporting, in order to write the book. I think that Anjanue Ellis in this film is the reason to see it. Um, I don't agree.

I, you know, cast is a tricky book for me. I don't necessarily, I don't believe her argument that it's cast. We're not talking about, um, and we spend too much time talking about racism i think racism is our caste system um and but it didn't matter while i was watching

this movie because anjini ellis believes it so i did too i mean she's just one of those actors she's just so like open and like anything is possible with her um i just i love i love watching her she's also tasked with bringing to life not just like reporting which you know and and some of the reporting scenes are dramatic uh and and memorable and some of them are just you know i gotta go to a library so that's that's like a hard acting task and then she has to also bring to life like academic ease and and actually writing um a pretty like dense and um not exactly accessible book and that is also becomes one of the plots I think so she brings to life i think very movingly a lot of things that uh that would not seem to be very lively it's an interesting

um comparison point to both oppenheimer and how to blow up a pipeline you know these two kind of academic explorations of big ideas and american history and complexity and violence done completely, done all three of those movies done in completely different ways and in completely different styles. You know, origin has a bit in common with Oppenheimer. If you, I was going to say Oppenheimer and origin are very similar,

even structural. Yeah. To me. I didn't think it, it's a movie that I didn't see in a movie theater and I would have liked to, I'm very up and down on David DuVernay's movies. But I thought that it was like a really bold experiment that that I didn't see in a movie theater and I would have liked to. I'm very up and down on Amy DuVernay's movies. Um, but I thought that it was like a really bold experiment that I just didn't,

it didn't really congeal for me. Like I really couldn't figure out ultimately what she was trying to say beyond the obvious. I think you were correct. The movie does not, it does not come together. It's kind of a mess as a movie. Um,

it's a different kind of mess than Oppenheimer where, where I think that the movie like Oppenheimer never gets away from Christopher Nolan. I just don't think that the choices add up to much. Um, whereas Oppenheimer, I mean, whereas origin, I think that the movie gets away from the person who made it.

Like, I think she, there's a lot that she's trying to do and i don't there's no the movie concludes nothing right you don't understand um what it's its thesis seems to sort of suffer under the weight of the of what for isabel wilkerson in the movie are the emotional stakes, which are essentially her grieving, her doing a lot of grieving, essentially. I wouldn't know how to solve this problem as a filmmaker,

but I definitely thought that as long as Anjanue Ellis was on screen with also, you know, talking to Niecy Nash and a lot of Niecy Nash bets. And a lot of scenes, I thought the movie was sort of wonderful and there wasn't enough of that. Anjanue Ellis sort of stress, or Isabel Wilkerson stress testing these ideas against people's skepticism. It was just, you know, an assertion that what is written about in cast

is true, as opposed to her... What I would have been interested in seeing is her debating people about this, because that's what happened when Isabel Wilkerson published the book. But anyway, of these names, I think Anjanue Ellis

is my choice. I really love Julianne Moore, Natalie Portman in May december and i love jennifer lawrence and no hard feelings too like what a good movie star performance i think we already looked out for andrew barth feldman so we can pass on jayla what's your what's your take i guess i mean pairing julianne moore and natalie portman is very funny to me. And so, you know, that's like a value combo. And so that appeals to me. There should be like a chemistry award.

Yeah. You know, like a best, not a best kiss, but like a best on-screen pairing award. Like in a way, you know, that sequence with them in the mirror. This is your show. Yeah. This is your show. Right, it is. You can do it next year.

So I guess that's where I would cast my vote. Okay. We're going to do Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman. Sure. I'm not going to say it. Two is frankly more powerful than one, especially when they're both Oscar winners. Two more awards. Best Director.

Greta Gerwig for Barbie. Have you heard of Barbie? I didn't put this on the list. I did. It was my choice. It should be there. What are you? Of course it should be there.

Listen, I'm tired, Wesley. You know, I just can't. I've been doing it for months, for years. I'm tired of hearing my own voice talk about it, you know? So, Amanda, if this is how you feel at this point, imagine being like Greta Gerwig. I know. Or like Margot Robbie. I know. Or Devine Joy Randolph. I mean, like, this is not healthy, people. I agree with you. I can't believe the Oscars haven't happened yet. Why are they still late in the year? Nobody should have to go through this shit.

I think we should just have the Oscars in May, you know? Just, we'll just count the first five months of the year. We'll do it every May. The other nominees in this category are Aki Karasumaki for Fallen Leaves, Hilner Palmason for Godland, Kelly Reichardt for Showing Up,

Frederick Wiseman for Menus Placir Le Toit Gros. Your French is impeccable. Thank you. I watched the Wiseman movie last night. Oh.

It's an incredible movie. What a lucky man you are, for the first time. Completely enveloping. Yeah. I, you are, seeing it for the first time. Honestly, completely enveloping. Yeah. I, you know, my guy's not going to win, God bless him.

Non-agenarian, still out there crushing it in France. But if you haven't seen any Frederick Wiseman movies, this is my opportunity to tell you to watch any of them. They're all fascinating explorations. National, national treasure,

international treasure at this point. Okay, so who, I mean. Didn't he get an honorary Oscar, by the way? I think he did, yes. That sounds right. Such a fuck you.

It's just like, ugh. It's very dumb. He should have like 10 Oscars. It's very dumb. This is insane. It's insane. This one's only four hours, so people can definitely

make their way through it. It's a real, it's top to bottom treat though you can do it okay I mean is it Greta Gerwig

I mean Aki Korizmaki what a wonderful Aki Korizmaki it is like but the thing is that it is just that and I don't

that's not I'm not denigrating it but it is an Aki Korizmaki movie through and through and showing up is is my No, no, no. But it is an Aki Kors Maki movie. Right. Through and through. And showing up is my favorite of the Kelly Reichert. Yes. But it is, it's Kelly Reichert reaching full expression.

Yes. Of Kelly Reichert. Precisely. And I think opening up to the world a little more. I mean, it's as funny and deep as all of her movies. It's as funny as she's ever going to get. Yeah. Yeah.

It's never going to get more like Relatably funny than this movie I mean Greta Gerwig God I can't believe I'm saying it I mean not because I'm looking at Frederick Wiseman's name You know what I mean But in terms of like I think Aki Korizmaki

What I'm saying about this being Like a delight Another delight from this delightful director who's not, this is not his best film. Frederick Wiseman makes a movie every two years, basically. And where do you even start, right? Like I'm not here to like make sentimental choices. I'm about looking at the thing and being like,

well, of these five film, of these five directing experiences, which is the one that I feel is, was the most surprising and the most unlikely and the most convincing and the most unified in its vision for itself, right? Like from its opening scene to its closing shot, what is the movie that I feel could only have been made by the person who made it right like

like could anybody else have dropped in here and achieve this if we're talking about Barbie the answer is no right anybody else's Barbie is a total

this is true of all five of these movies that's what's great about them but but what which of these I mean Fallen Leaves I mean how do I put this that's true great about yeah but but what which is the which of these i mean fallen leaves i mean how do i put this nancy myers presents fallen leaves

no but my point is that like it's it's so characteristic of korismaki right menu plays ears is so characteristic of wise men showing up is characteristic of right heart right like these are all people who are working as themselves but but not transcendently so necessarily right greta gerwig um to the extent that like i don't know why she chose to do this movie but she did it and she had a real vision for something she didn't need to have a vision for. This movie is a top to bottom surprise.

It has so many strange avant-garde choices. I don't know if I've said this to you guys before. I said it to somebody. I don't think I said it on a microphone but like Guy Madden could have made parts of this movie. Agree. Um,

it's quite strange at moments, but it's happening through her vision of what this, this, this product means to all of these different people. Um, I think it's funny. I teared up twice. Uh,

I think that opening sequence, no matter how many times I watch it, is going to be funny every single time. It's really good. The use of the Lizzo song at the beginning, and then having it recur when things start to go on the fritz for her. I don't know.

What did you think of those Chevy truck commercials in the middle of the movie? Did you enjoy those? No? Yeah. Okay, I'm just putting that out there. I mean... Just the marvelous product placement.

Right, yeah. Of the executives when they're like coming to Barbie land or whatever. No, when there's the great chase sequence away from Mattel industries.

And the shots are like... Right, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I didn't even... It's funny, I didn't even notice that that was what was happening but okay.

There's some very funny screenshots of just like the car framed beautifully, just as beautifully as Margot Robbie is framed in the movie because you know, this is a studio movie

with a big budget and there's certain ways to get those movies made. I think it's Greta Gerwig through and through. I think you made an amazing case for her and can you imagine

99 out of 100 other Barbie movies, how terrible they would be and how wonderful her Barbie movie is? I mean, come on. I mean, I've been saying this for like seven months. No, I agree. It's just, I think there is also something about this scale of the achievement and not in the box office sense, but it's like this, she went for it. It is gonzo.

It is, you know, really very strange and on like the biggest stage possible and still cohesive. Like it is, it is, as Wesley said, it is a Greta Gerwig movie, which I happen to love. So. Okay. Best picture. What's bigger than 10 11 we've got 11 nominees for best picture this year here are the nominees asteroid city blackberry fallen leaves godzilla minus one the iron claw the killer may december passages showing up spider-man across

the spider-verse and the taste of things which has been much maligned. Yeah. And I think unjustly. People are being real assholes. Everyone settle down. What is wrong with people with this movie? What is going on? I don't understand it. Well, because people are, they love Anatomy of a Fall and they're mad that this movie was submitted as a French entry. Which, like, I don't even understand from a logic perspective because Anatomy of a Fall

already got all the other nominees. Why would you waste the slots? Exactly. So you could also get a Taste of Things nomination. I don't understand. They didn't, unfortunately. Well, that was the foreign film, you know,

the international film branches mistake. Or is that, do they all vote? My new take on this is also that it shouldn't be one country submitting an international film Oscar. Just let everybody in. Just let everybody in.

Just ridiculous. If it's all Iranian movies, it's all Iranian movies. Just let everybody in. Just let everybody in. Just ridiculous. If it's all Iranian movies, it's all Iranian movies. That's on France. Do a better job next year, France. I agree. Okay. I actually don't know what to pick here. I don't even have a strong desire to pick one of these.

It's funny. Although, you guys, what's with Blackberry? Y'all like that movie that was Sean I love that movie I think that's a great movie can I say something another great movie

about capitalism I don't want to derail the podcast this late but this was nominated for best ending how does it end it ends with Jay Baruchel

in the factory with all the malfunctioning Blackberries and him trying to opening boxes and hand fixing it I do remember that which is just a brilliant

apotheosis of the problem of technology, capitalism, the desire to go faster, build more, tempt people into spending. Do you relate to that character? No. You don't? You're not just like in a room fixing things by hand as the world crumbles down around you? No. I've retreated to comfort. Oh, okay.

I've retreated to what I love. Great. Oh, that's beautiful. I don't need that. My building era is over, let me tell you. I am about relaxing now. So this is not my pick yet. I just want to say, as you're reading the nominees,

I thought again about how we did another auxiliary awards, like an entire auxiliary awards podcast without even, I think we said asteroid city once but like we didn't talk about it at all again i assumed this was going to be your pick oh you did yeah um wesley what did you think of this movie uh-oh but are you a west person i'm literally a west person okay Okay. That's my name. That's, sure. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah. Are you a Wes Anderson person? Okay, so here's the deal. You have to be. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I have very complicated feelings about how cold he leaves me now. Okay. Um, I no longer,

I've shed my like blood boiling fury at his blind spots. Um, and his complacency and his fear of risk, a real risk. I'm over that. And I now accept that this person is never going to be anything other than the person he's been being, as an artist anyway, for the last 30 years. And that's just, that's fine. Okay.

I accept. So you don't vote for Asteroid City? I would never. Okay. That's really mean. But I watched it again recently. I watched it like a month and a half ago. I just find it... I mean, I don't know what the experience is

of watching something that you... It's not claustrophobia, but it's like rectangle phobia, boxophobia, square phobia. Like, the geometry is just so alienating to me. And, you know, there's so many... It's a Wes Anderson movie. There's like, it's wall to wall with wonderful human people. It's wall to wall with wonderful production design.

The cinematography is fantastic. The music is beautiful the silences are astounding this man knows what to do with noiselessness but my blood runs so cold with him um and it's better than it boiling in the sense that I don't, I just get tired of getting worked up about his alien relationship to real life. And I want to be clear about what I mean when I say this, because I'm also praising Denis Villeneuve for like being as far from reality as one can get. I don't think Wes Anderson's a fraud. I think that Wes Anderson is afraid. Wow.

I see what you did there. I think he does not want to be in the real world. And the construction of these microcosms becomes increasingly... The spaces are disturbed, right? The structures he's building are so, every movie goes one level down into or away from

life as it's lived. He's like moving back in time while also staying so firmly rooted in a in a present that he never actually had access to i don't really know exactly what i'm saying here you're describing everything i like yeah and i think you're spot on but that thing of that he's afraid to be in the real world and so is trying to construct and explore. I mean, it's literally a fallout shelter, right? Well, yeah.

These are movies. Why does he have to be in the real world? Yeah. Also, I don't like my feelings either, you know? I want to make a real important—I want to try to clarify what I'm saying because I do not want to say that art has to reflect life. He, like this art is reflecting life, but it's reflecting life as it was lived in 1955. I mean, clearly, if you've ever seen the way that he dresses,

the way that he speaks, the things that he's interested in, the way that he lives, it is a retreat. It is a retreat to a life that he never experienced that he romanticizes. And he has made it his life's work to increasingly burrow deeper and deeper into that conception and literally this is a movie about being visited by an alien and the impact that that has on a community and he is that alien

to us like he is the person who's like i am the one you've never seen before i am the strange thing i am the box that you're describing. So it's a, I'm not sure if that's his intention, but that's how I read it in a lot of ways. Like it is a, the alien is unmistakably a tall, slender, odd looking man, much like Wes Anderson. You know, like there's, I think it's a really beautiful and smart movie

that also features like deeply emotional performances, which he doesn't always get. Like sometimes he gets the wellspring of emotion out of his actors. This is one where I really felt like you've got people digging deep while staying within the Anderson performance zone. Yeah. So I don't know. This would have been my pick.

I'm out. I'm outvoted. No, no, no, no, no. What would you nominate instead? These 11 movies probably, probably May, December. This is the one that fallen leaves i like fallen leaves a lot um but again like i like the like just thinking about what asteroid city is doing like i'm roused again uh just sort of explaining how i feel about it but

of these 11 movies i don't know know. I mean, May, December, Fallen Leaves, Passages. I mean, the strongest movie among them is probably May, December in terms of all the things, like things I value in a kind of filmmaking, which are like risk, humor, ambiguity. I mean, I guess you could say this also about Fallen Leaves a little bit.

Although nothing, I mean, Fallen Leaves also has like a little bit of cute. There's a sweetness at the end of that movie. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. I mean, it's interesting also that Asteroid City, I mean, not that this is what it's really about but like there's so many laudable things about it as a as a as an edifice right like production costume cinematography you know uh even screenwriting i don't know i mean just keep making an amazing case for it it's remarkable I've I've mixed feelings about it because to sit there with it and watch this thing, it's really an achievement. But I cannot shake my my sort of negative relationship with this filmmaker's philosophy of being alive.

I think there are many people that agree with you. I don't think you're alone in the only the only thing i'll say in defense is that i think the movie to sean's point like does is if not interrogating that it is about in a lot of ways his philosophy of being alive and and the remove that it creates it has a total consciousness about it the ed norton character sitting alone in his cabin writing, but then encounters someone who he's going to collaborate with who animates something physically, emotionally romantic in him. There are all these echoes of the self in the movie that I think is really interesting.

Can I just say, did you guys watch the shorts? Yeah. I think the shorts are extraordinary I think they're technically very impressive I don't think they have quite the depth of this movie I laughed I thought the one

about the Ben Kingsley can see or can read minds he can't see I just yeah that's what I meant to say i don't know i i he i i i love talking about wes anderson and why he frustrates me so much i love talking to him with people who don't agree with me um and i increasingly that's who i'm talking to by the way like it's usually

it's usually not a pile on among me and other people. He's drawn many people to, some skeptics to his side over the last 10 years too. I mean, he'll never Clint Eastwood me. Like,

like the Academy Awards, you know, the big picks, not everyone can be happy. And I think in this case, you're not going to be happy when you're outvoted on Asteroid City. I feel like there's not a better

second choice. Like, I wanted to make this a place of collaboration and trust, but I don't know if I can do May, December over Asteroid City. I mean, I came here to talk. I didn't come here to win. There's no winning involved. We're all winners on this podcast. We do have to wrap it up though. It's been an epic conversation. Wesley, where can we find you? In New York City. Where can we find your works and your ideas? Oh, the New York Times.

I'm like, wait, what? I work at the New York Times. Please drop a pin, Wesley, immediately for the entire audience. Yeah, every doll lives at the New York Times. NewYorkTimes.com. Come on, come on.

But subscribe if you don't. Subscribe. Please subscribe to The Big Picture as well. If you're listening to this and you're not subscribed, I hope we haven't warded you off in any meaningful way from doing so. Amanda, thank you for all your contributions as always. Later this week, we are predicting the winners of the Real Academy Awards. Oh, shit.

Yeah. Yeah. You feel ready for that? I can't wait to listen to that. I'm ready. I'm ready to listen. Thanks to our producer,? I can't wait to listen to that. I'm ready. I'm ready to listen. Thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on this episode.

We'll be back in just a couple of days and we'll see you then.