The Big Picture - The 2025 Dumpuary Extravaganza. Plus: Steven Soderbergh Returns!

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

Sean and Amanda are joined by Yasi Salek to discuss ‘Better Man,’ the bizarro Robbie Williams biopic in which he is rendered as a CGI chimpanzee (1:00) and ‘One of Them Days,’ the Keke Palmer and SZA action comedy produced by Issa Rae and directed by Lawrence Lamont (29:00). Then, Yasi departs and Sean and Amanda explore ‘Back In Action,’ the spy-action-comedy starring Cameron Diaz and Jamie Foxx that jumped up to number one on Netflix (53:00). Next, Chris Ryan joins to weigh in on ‘Wolf Man,’ ‘Flight’ Risk,' and ‘Presence,’ a trio of movies of wildly different quality from three accomplished directors (1:06:00). Finally, Sean is joined by Steven Soderbergh to discuss his 35th feature film ‘Presence,’ a tense thriller experimenting with point-of-view and form (1:40:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Yasi Salek, Chris Ryan, and Steven Soderbergh Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Anytime I rent or buy a movie, I buy it on Amazon Prime. That's true. I swear. On Prime, whatever you're into, or just getting into Prime service can help you get closer to it. Or discover something else to get into. Whatever you're into, it's on Prime. Visit amazon.ca slash prime

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I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about Dumpuary. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Steven Soderberg. His new film, Presence, is in theaters now. And we'll talk about it later in this episode. It's a POV-driven story, a ghost story. The camera is literally the ghost in this movie.

Had a good time talking with Steven, who of course Amanda is in love with. What? Spoiler. Why is that a spoiler? I don't know. It's in the marketing material. Yeah, but like, if you sit down... That you're in love with him is in the marketing material. Well, that is on record. And he...

See, look, I just get tongue-tied when I'm talking about Steven Spielberg. Sean asked him one of my questions, and I'm really excited to hear what he said. But yeah, I don't know. I would... If you are gonna watch Presence, just watch it. Okay, just watch it. Also, listen to my conversation with Steven. Please stick around. After we talk today, we're talking about a bunch of new movies.

We have multiple guests. Later in the episode, Chris Ryan will show up to talk about some dude-ly films that are hitting theaters. But we're joined by a special guest in studio, Yassie Salek. Hi, Yassie. Hi, Sean. How are you doing? Hi, Yassie. I'm great.

Hanging in there? Best year of my life. Okay, great. Wonderful. You're here for a very specific reason, because one of the movies that was released this January, this dumpuary, is called Better Man. I think Better Man came up when we...

Did it come up when we talked about Moana 2? Yes. And you were like, I'm interested in this. What is this? I really... Since I saw the... on twitx.com a while back, I was like, what's this? I'm intrigued. And Amanda, what is Better Man? So it is a biopic about the British musical star, Robbie Williams,

wherein Robbie Williams is played by a CGI monkey. I'm sorry, just not to be like the split hairs, but it is a chimpanzee. I actually, as I was saying monkey, I was like, I don't actually think that I have the right classification here. I have also been calling it monkey movie, but then I did a bit of research and it is a chimpanzee.

Monkeys have tails. This is a chimpanzee, it does not have a tail. Interesting. Okay, so I don't think I understood that delineation. I didn't either. Is there a meaningful difference in the execution of the movie? If this were a monkey, would it be closer to a Planet of the Apes style tale? I mean, honestly, when I thought about that,

it was more just like a tale is so unnerving. So I think that they made the right choice. Well, I can assure you, this is no less unnerving. Then you have to adjust the wardrobe for the... Yeah, exactly. You know, and the chimpanzee, I almost said monkey, I'm sorry, is dressed like all the other humans around him. Sexily.

Yeah, I mean, he's... Hot chimpanzee? No, I'm just saying they're dressed sexily. That's the whole long, for the take that portion of it. Oh, sure, yeah, okay, okay. I mean, let's talk about Robbie Williams before we get into the actual movie itself. Because Robbie Williams is a name that I think

many people between the ages of 30 and 60 have probably heard. Mm-hmm. He is quite famous in the UK. Significantly less famous in the United States. He did make an attempt to break through in the US, which didn't really take. But he has been kind of in the United States. He did make an attempt to break through in the US, which didn't really take, but he has been kind of in the firmament of celebrity in the United Kingdom for a long time.

Oh, and the United Kingdom very much so, yeah. Um, this movie is a pretty significant risk in the United States. We'll talk about that risk that was taken, but, you know, I think you and I have had mostly the same experience with Robbie Williams, which is that I'm sure we were aware of and had heard Take That songs. And then, when he went solo, he came through with Millennium, which is, of course, a kind of morphed adaptation of a James Bond song

delivered in the style of like a Frank Sinatra dance ballad. Sure. Yeah. Everything that you just said was like a really, really normal. Kind of accurate though? Yes, it is. I mean, that song didn't hit. Despite Millennium and despite us all. What about Angels, you guys?

Angels is the bigger. I don't know what that is. How have you never heard? Well, what charted higher in the US? You gotta consider where we were. We basically grew up in a suburban existence watching MTV all day. Sure. So I got Millennium and that's it.

I'm the And also... Through... Are you whisper singing angels? I don't want to unleash my full singing voice here. You're holding your voice back. I don't think the big picture is prepared for that. Okay.

I don't know what charted higher. You had a very different experience than we did with Robbie Williams. Yeah, I don't know. Like, don't vary. Like, it's not my favorite artist that I had as posters on my wall. Take That did not exist to me. Same. Yeah, because that was... I went to high school partially in Singapore, because I am the most interesting woman in the world.

And I moved there in like, 97, which is when Robbie Williams went solo. So Take That, nothing to do with me, but he was very big on MTV Asia. So I knew Angels, I knew Millennium. And you liked them? I just knew them. No, I don't, it wasn't, I wasn't, you know, I was listening to, I wasn't listening to some real, some real shit, some real guitar based shit. Yeah, same, same. But I knew it, like it was in the ether. Like, I know those songs when I hear them,

they're very familiar to me. He, you know, there were a number of other... Obviously, this is sort of, I guess, sort of the tail end of the Britpop explosion when he came along. Yeah, because I think Be Here Now came out in... 96. Oh, 98. Okay. So after.

Am I wrong? I don't even remember. I think it's 98. Bobby can back check for us. Sorry, I'm not allowed to ask. I was just in the middle of back checking. Angels charted higher. Yeah, that's what Angels is like a huge song.

Okay. Got past me. Yeah, absolutely. No idea what that is. Be here now, it's 97. Nineteen weeks on the chart. Millennium only peaked at 72 and was only on the chart for four weeks. Yeah, it's also not unrelated, honestly, because Britpop died in 1997 as a result of multiple factors, including Be Here Now, including Noel Gallagher

going to 10 Downing in his fuck-ass blazer, and his dumb haircut, and being like, okay, cool. Yeah, by the way, old episode of the podcast were just absolutely Liam Gallagher slander. I think it was The Brutalist, yeah. And you and Adam Naiman were just like, Old episode of the podcast, we're just absolutely Liam Gallagher slander. I think it was The Brutalist. Yeah, and you and Adam Neyman were just like, Team Noel, he's the artist.

And I just, I think there are a lot of different definitions of art. Yeah. I don't disagree. I did enjoy that episode, because you know, I love, I'm a brutalist bitch, like I said. Yeah, I know. And then also, then you guys had like a mini band's plane

in the middle and I was like, well, I can chime in and talk about Oasis. It was a good episode, but I just, you know, once again, Liam rules. You will have plenty of time after you see Oasis live to really delineate who is the true artist in Oasis. There was no, there's no, there's no counterpoint, no brother figure in the Robbie Williams story.

No. No. But oh, I was gonna say, it's like, Robbie Williams going solo is not, not part of Britpop dying, I think. It's tangentially connected, for sure. It's the... ushers in this sort of like new pop thing that happened. Yeah, I think like Jamiroquai is a part of that. There are a few UK artists who like infiltrated America and there was this expectation that like there would be a long stream

the same way that there was in the 60s. Well, Spice Girls also come out, I think in... Very related, very connected. that there would be a long stream, the same way that there was in the 60s. The British Invasion. Spice Girls also come out, I think, in 1996, 1997. Very related, very connected. And all of that stuff was happening. I regarded it with some curiosity and not a ton of interest. It wasn't exactly... British pop is not my favorite kind of music. But this is... I mean, this was...

We're talking about stuff that was happening 28, 29, 30 years ago. So this is a very odd subject for a wide release film in the United States. And yet, amongst some people in our lives, this is among the most beloved movies that's come out despite its huge commercial failure in the US. Okay, but don't you feel, and not to regurgitate x.com takes,

but is not the commercial failure in the US. Okay, but don't you feel, and not to regurgitate ex.com takes, but is not the commercial failure a great deal because no one knows who Robbie Williams is here? Like, I'm sure the monkey chimpanzee aspect has something to do with it, but... Yes, of course. And I think even watching it as a person who knew Millennium, and, you know, I actually love music biopic. I was like, okay, but who is this person

and who are any of these people? And like, what is Take That? I literally just Googled Take That and learned that Gary Barlow is one of this. Okay, but Gary Barlow is someone I've seen on like Graham Norton for like 20 years and have literally never known who he was. That's my list.

Well, he's a part of this film in the story. Yeah, I wasn't paying that close attention to that. I have to be honest, I was paying... He's like the main antagonist besides the devil. Oh, that's true. That's my Gary. And he goes to the house and he's like, Gary, I hate you. It's the same Gary. But I, you know, like they...

That's a good point. They don't say Gary Barlow 45 times in the movie, so I wasn't like, oh, that guy from, you know, the talk shows that I watch. So yeah, no one knows who he is. I was like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm well known here. So... That to me, I think is the, like, hardest. Because to bring up a complete unknown, you enjoy it so much because you know the song. Yes. And that's why I was, like, honestly shocked how much I loved Better Man,

because I did not know most of the songs, and I still loved it. And I was like, wow. And I didn't know that much of the story, and I still love it. And I was like, that means it's so good. Because music biopics really just, like, wow. And I didn't know that much of the story, and I still love it. And I was like, that means it's so good. Because music biopics really just, like, kind of cheaply play on your, like, fondness for the music.

They often do. They often do. There's one specific aspect of this that is different, aside from the chimpanzee aspect, which is that Michael Gracie is the director of this movie. Michael Gracie's last movie was The Greatest Showman, which had a kind of a similar arc of like immediate failure. And then it became a huge box office success over an extended period of time at this same time of year.

Came out in December, didn't do well, and then for whatever reason held on at the box office. And then was kind of claimed as... kind of like a goofball postmodern musical masterpiece. Better Man is sort of trending in that same direction. It's never gonna make the amount of money as kind of like a goofball postmodern musical masterpiece. Better Man is sort of trending in that same direction. It's never gonna make the amount of money that The Greatest Showman did, but Michael Gracie is actually a very interesting figure.

He kind of has a similar background to someone like James Cameron, where he was a VFX artist, working behind the scenes on movies for a long time, always had a very dynamic, creative visual sensibility. The reason why he took this movie on, we can talk about in a long time, always had a very dynamic, creative visual sensibility. The reason why he took this movie on, we can talk about in a little bit. But he's a director who has like an incredible energy

in his movies. I don't really love the script of this movie, but I had a lot of fun watching it because, man, it's like so thrilling at times, the way that it's made. Like, the camera is flying all over the place. The dance sequences, the choreography, the way that CGI is deployed. That sequence. The rock DJ.

Yeah, come on. The rock DJ sequence is incredible. One of the great movie scenes of the year. Super fun and exciting and creative. And, you know, this movie was nominated for Best Visual Effects Oscar. And so the issues that I have with it, aside from not really knowing those songs

and not having that pleasure hit that you're talking about when you hear a song you love. And you hate chimpanzees? No, I like chimpanzees and I like movies with monkeys and chimps in them as well. I don't really get, I didn't feel emotionally connected to whatever Robbie Williams' plight was, which was like, guess child neglect? And then the quest for fame?

Like it did, the stakes seemed weirdly really low on this movie. You know how art is like a mirror? Uh-huh. Yeah. Um... I feel like I'm learning a lot about you right now. Okay, how so? They're just the, we're like such different kinds

of entertainers. You think I'm an entertainer? I think I'm an entertainer. I wouldn't dispute that, nor would I dispute it about you either. Yeah. Well, what do you mean? Because you do reflect on the child neglect and feel seen by that story?

Well, we don't have to get into that. I don't have to sound the tail end of my house burning down. We can do that all the time. It's a topic discussion. We can. We sure can. I think it was like... I said this in my letterbox review. That's right, you guys have a letterbox.

Just scoping for dudes. That's right, get on here, babe. Oh yeah, that would be good. Though I'm less comfortable with the letterbox. Community. Well, like as a meet cute destination than like the rep theater. I'd like you to start there.

Yeah, I'm just trying to get more followers. Okay, all right. I thought it was like literally Rep Theater. I'd like you to start there. Yeah. I'm just trying to get more followers. Okay. All right. I thought it was like literally Jungian. The way... Can I just have a little spiel on the monkey? The chimpanzee. First of all, number one, Robbie Williams looks like a monkey. So already it's working. Okay.

He has a facial resemblance. He does, but we all do technically. No, but like more than most people. Okay. Yeah, you need to pull up a photo, like look at it. Okay. Number two, his whole thing was being dehumanized by being a clown and an entertainer.

So, okay, we're dehumanizing with a monkey. And he hated himself. And yes, part of that, I think, was child neglect if you want, or just sort of like the value system foisted upon him by his father who thought being famous and a star was the most important thing in the world and abandoned him to seek his fortune. But also, sometimes that's just how you're built, you know? And I just thought it worked so well on all those levels. And that was his plight.

His plight was just that he hated himself and he thought that if he could get enough other people to love him, he would stop hating himself. Which is a very common, I think, trope. I don't know very many people who don't feel that way. Right. But like in, in fame, but you didn't connect with it? Or are you not a person that felt ever felt that way? I think it's always hard when someone who's just tremendously successful and rich is like,

I tried really hard to be famous and then I got famous. Like, that's not really, it's one of the reasons why I don't really like music biopics, is that they're often rooted in these sort of, you know, self-mythology around one's own success. Yeah. So, it's a kind of a bland story. It doesn't mean that the way he was feeling isn't success. Yeah. So it's a kind of a bland story. It doesn't mean that the way he was feeling isn't valid. And it doesn't mean that child neglect and the desire

to kind of like authorize your parents' expectations of you isn't a real thing in people's lives. It is. As the structure of a movie, it's just kind of boring. Like, I knew where this was going the whole time. So I'm with Yasi in that I think that the chimpanzee, I'm really trying hard here. I know.

I think we can just shorthand monkey. It's OK. Like, the monkey construct is very clever, both in terms of the story and also, like, and what you expect with a music biopic. And I like a music biopic, but they are formulaic. And so, and they do often hinge on this, like, I really tried to be a star, be an artist,

and then all these things, often including my mean dad, like held me back. And then I made it, but there were consequences of it. I mean, you know, that is the story of a lot of famous people. I find that interesting. I think like the monkey thing is a clever way to do it. I also think they, like, do pull off the monkey thing in the context of the movie. My problem is, like, the inherent contradiction that, like, Robbie Williams is not that famous to me, you know? And so, like, I'm watching all of this and I'm like,

okay, well, like, you had a decent amount of success wherever you are, and I remember Millennium, but I'm like, you know... That's the disconnect. Because he really was like... Justin Timberlake. Like for a cop, he was so famous in the UK. Yes.

So, the story does make sense in the context of his life in the UK. It just like maybe doesn't translate to us. I don't know. Okay, my other thing was like, I don't mind when a plot is wrote in the music biopic, especially because like, would you have wanted it to be like, it's a chimpanzee and we have this crazy different plot? Like, I feel like almost like too much subversion of the form. I think part of it is because unlike Bob Dylan or Elton John or other people

who have gotten this treatment before, I'm not as familiar with the details of Robbie Williams' life. So to learn that this movie about a significantly less famous person was greenlit with a 110 million dollar budget and this big conceit, I would have hoped. And the movie is really audacious in almost every other way. So it being so audacious in every other way is a credit to it and a reason why I like it.

Like generally I would recommend this movie. It's a cool movie. It's different. It's much more different than Rocketman. But the script itself is like... Why does this podcast have to turn and get Selden John? You know, I love you. I heard you.

I'm really happy that you're here. But we just don't have to take cheap shots. He deserved a better... I agree, that's the thing. I hate music biopics across the board. They're almost all bad. That's why this movie... I'm holding this movie to the same stand.

I think it's better than all of them. Be cut here, I'll tell you why. I think the failing that most music biopics have, in my humble music expert opinion, is they're too self-serious. And it's embarrassing. This movie is not that. It's fun. And because of that, it's kind of able to like Trojan horse in,

to me anyways, more poignancy and more feeling because it's not beating you over the head with... Every time I watch a music biopic with the... I don't know, I haven't made a list. I was like, what are the good ones? They're just so like, you're like... Okay. They are tremendously serious.

You don't think this movie is that fun though? No, no, no. It's really, really fun. And then at some point he goes solo and he's just like on a boat singing his like, subpar solo stuff to some woman that I've never heard of who I think was also... was she was like a... Nicole Appleton from All Saints. Oh, Nicole Appleton, I have heard of Nicole.

Add a baby with Liam Gallagher. You needed to look at the cast list here, so you could just see who the real people were, because you're probably, I felt the same way. I'm familiar with most of these people. But I'm familiar with them in a, like, my diseased, immoral brain still reads the Daily Mail, you know, and so it's like...

In so many ways, you're an Anglophile, yet you did not know about Robbie Williams. You brain still reads the Daily Mail. You know, and so it's like I... In so many ways you're an Anglophile, yet you did not know about Robbie Williams. Not in the Daily Mail. I knew like a little bit about him, but it's like, you know, you read the headlines and you're like, okay, well, that's some local politics. You know, like that doesn't apply to me. That's a great way of describing it.

I just saw this morning a photo of Liam and Hugh Grant at the same table, circa 1998 when he was still dating Elizabeth Hurley. I could just go back in time. And you know, you more so than me, but I felt like I understood that access of celebrity in the UK. And Robbie Williams was just on the outside, you know? He was the Karen Bass to the Gavin Newsome conversation that we're having. I think you're confusing it.

I think you understand that access of fame in America. In the UK, they were just as famous. Yes, exactly. I think you're confusing it. I think you understand that axis of fame in America. In the UK, they were just as famous. Oh, that's true. I just wasn't there. Robbie Lamb set like records. I'm not disputing his level of success. I think it's all in the context of an American movie podcast, basically. And this movie being distributed by Paramount.

Like, this isn't an independent film with a small budget. I mean, I kept thinking about Mamma Mia in this, which, you know, was... Have you still not seen Mamma Mia? I haven't seen it yet. I'm sorry. Really? I don't want to spoil it for you, but Meryl Streep just screams the winner takes it all at Pyrrhus Brosnan, like in Greece. Okay. I mean, it's worth seeing.

A secret thing about me is I hate musicals. Well, I mean, I kind of do sometimes, too. But that's okay. But this is more... That's more your exception is I hate musicals. Uh, well, I mean, I kind of do sometimes too, but that's okay, but this is more to where you are. That's more your exception on the modern musicals. You like classic musicals. That's true. Yeah. But like, I do like classic musicals. Do you like ABBA?

Yeah, I mean, just as much as the next Red-Blooded. Sure, right. So, I mean, it's just that. It's just enjoyable, yeah. Yeah. And so anyway. Why is, why did it remind you of Mamma Mia? Because Mamma Mia, like, I mean, it did well here, but for a long time, it was like the most successful movie in the UK, like ever.

It made $465 million internationally to like 100 here. And like, I think all of that was Brits being like, yo, let's go see Mamma Mia again. In theory, Sweden as well. And Europe, just all of that was Brits being like, yo, let's go see Mamma Mia again. In theory, Sweden as well. And Europe, just all Europe. Yeah, but it was like a huge, huge outside success in the UK. So I was like, oh, maybe they think that this is, you know, that they can Mamma Mia this.

But I don't know why you would, as an American movie studio, why you would invest so much in its American release. The business of it, I don't understand. That's a real... We can talk about that briefly. I mean, Matt Bellamy had this in his newsletter a couple of weeks ago, which I thought was interesting, which was that Michael Gracie agreed to the deal with Paramount to distribute this movie at a certain number,

which I think was 25 million, because Paramount wanted him to make another movie that is reportedly more commercial, according to Matt, called Nevermore. Oh, so he was like wheeling in dealing. Maybe he loves Robbie Williams. And I'm sure he does. Michael Resee's Australian, but you know, he's clearly very tapped into the material here.

It's the Queensland, is it not? But that movie Nevermore feels like it is going to be the end result of the Better Man thing happening. Or maybe the movie doesn't happen because of the Better Man performance. For the record, Better Man has not been a big hit in the United Kingdom either. It has not performed that well in Robbie Williams' country. Do you think it's the chimpanzee? I don't know. I mean, I think it's a hard sell.

I think, I wonder if this, I don't know what level of celebrity Robbie Williams has right now, but I wonder if it was 10 years ago if it actually would have done better when he was a little bit closer to the apex of his success. Right, but you couldn't do that then. That technology? No, you just couldn't, you can't reflect on your life. Oh, he would have been too young, you think?

One minute later, yeah. Yeah, maybe. Did you see, you know he made also a docu-series. I did not see that. That came out last year. Did you watch that? I watched half of it. Okay.

It's also quite, it doesn't, it leaves out some of the, again I only watched half of it, that's really more family stuff than this. But it's also like he's so likable. Like he's so self-aware. That's the other thing, the other music biopics, I'm like, you're so not self-aware. There's a fine line between self-aware, postmodern entertainer and smug guy.

I think he's both. As someone who literally is operating in that space at times. You are an entertainer. I, well, maybe I am. I actually feel connected to Robbie Williams in some ways in that respect, but I don't think the kind of music that he makes, which is explained to us very well in the movie, which is like his dad is obsessed with Sinatra and Tony Bennett and these kind of classical American crooners.

When you listen to Robbie Williams, basically putting like a syncopated drum machine behind an attempt to sound like Frank Sinatra with a British accent. Do you know who played drums on Angels? Who played drums on Angels? Chris Cherick from The Laws. Oh, okay. Good note, real bands play moment there. A real drummer.

It's just an odd kind of music. There's not, he doesn't have a lot of contemporaries. You know, like there's Michael Buble and then I guess Harry Connick Jr. and a handful of people in the tradition of crooning. But like that's not really a pop style that works in America. And certainly not one when you're like, also it's produced by, you know, it's influenced by Massive Attack or whatever. So I think that's part of the issue here is that whatever Robbie Williams makes, it never

really fit in our collective heads in America. And so that is just a gap that I also would have a harder time getting over watching a two hour movie about a guy who makes music like this, honestly. Does that make sense? Of course. Can I say one thing about Liam Gallagher? Of course. It's a safe space for Liam fans, as you know.

I don't know if I said this to you, but one thing I was blown away by, we both recently watched... What's the terrible creation movie we watched? Creation Stories? Creation Stories? Sure, yeah. Spoiler, we will be podcasting about eventually. Um, there's also a actor playing Liam Gallagher in that movie. And this is, I think...

Okay, do you guys not agree that almost always when an actor plays a real person, the actor is always hotter? Mmm, yeah. It's pretty... 99%. It's a good rule of thumb. They round up. Yeah. They have not been able to get an actor hotter.

Like, every time I'm like, Liam Gallagher is ten times hotter than this person, why couldn't you? He's so gorgeous that they actually can't do that for him. And I find that amazing. I also, the Oasis casting in this film took me out of the movie. I would agree with you.

The Noel's not bad. I mean, and it was also, it was a commentary on Noel that I was like, okay, I see what you think of Noel Gallagher, Robbie Williams. They were so mean to him in the press. And like, I like it, you had to, there was some stuff you had to kind of know for it to hit and there's a lot of it I didn't,

but like, I don't know if you guys remember the part where he's like eating chips a bunch on, after he like breaks up with Nicole Ableton, goes back home and he's like forking down chips. Because he got really fat. When he was hanging out with Oasis, he got really fat. And I think they were like trying to nod at that, but they didn't want to like...

It was hard to make the monkey fat, I guess, but I was like... That is... He didn't get fat. And the fat suit, they did that, but that part was really good. Can I ask something? I don't remember... When you're saying chips, are you saying... Oh, sorry, crisps, crisps. OK, crisps. Well, you know.

And the parlance of the pancake. Potato chips, not French fries. The salt and vinegar, the lick. I cry so much. Oh, right, the lick, yeah. So, Want You Back, that never made its way to you, either of you guys, the Take That song? I don't think much.

Want You Back for Good. Want you back, want you back, oh, want you back for good. You know? They made it to you? How? I'm just a little, we're the same age. I'm surprised it didn't, maybe it just wasn't playing on MTV Asia. I mean, I was pretty sure I heard that.

Wasn't it TRL? That was prior to me listening. It's pre-TRL. Right, so that's the thing. Yeah, but I was watching MTV. And that's where like the, like even the several years may not put that on MTV. Um, where else would I have heard that song?

Maybe Z100? Maybe? Yeah, I think it might have been the radio. Maybe the radio. I honestly think it was on MTV. I could be wrong about that. It was not on 120 Minutes. I did see this film with a Scottish person. And she was obviously loved it, but she also was like, this was Harry Styles. Like, I can't express to you.

She was trying to say that her daughter who's 14, she was just like, I don't understand. Like a 15-year-old girl watching that was so amazing. But she actually liked it, to her credit. But I was like, wow, watching her with no context, who is Oasis? Like the way... Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in the same, in terms of the construction of the band too,

and I thought some of that was interesting with Damian Harriman as the, you know, the spangali who brings the group together. That's like a very familiar American trope with the Luke Pearlmans of the world who do that too. Um, the other thing that's weird, you've seen Enora? Yes. You know, Enora opens with this Take That song during the strip club sequence.

Oh, that's great. This will be the greatest day, you know, like, and that song that we're cursed through is also a Take That song, so... Take That at the movies is crazy. Back in the Renaissance. I wasn't like, oh, this is a Take That song when Enora started.

I mean, I knew it was, but I wasn't like, I, this is a Take That song when Enora started. I mean, I knew it was, but I wasn't like, I'm a Take That superfan. I'm not. I couldn't name three Take That songs. But it's unusual that Take That would have such a strong presence here in our culture. You know, this movie made a million dollars, domestically.

Yeah, it's not what you want. A million dollars on 1,200 screens. It's cost $110 million. I think it made like 12 or 13 in the UK. So that's bad. We're not done yet. You think it's going to bounce back after this pod? Me and Bobby Wagner and Jack Sanders, we're on a campaign, babe.

And we're going to turn the folks around. We're film influencers. So Bobby and Jack, both huge fans of Better Man. That's right. My guys. Bobby, you didn't love it as much as Jack did, I don't think. It was not like the best movie I saw of 2024, but I'd say it's better than your average movie

that makes it into this episode of this podcast. That is for sure. That's the thing that is actually an interesting point about this episode, which is that there are weirdly a lot of good, but not great, but good movies this January. Which we call Dumpuary. Which we call Dumpuary. But as I said, it's not about, we're not, but good movies this January. Which we call Dumpuary. But as I said, it's not about, we're not dumping on these movies.

They were dumped into the landfill of January release. Where people traditionally do not go to the theater, hence the one million dollar box office. You said it was December. It was released in limited engagement in December to qualify for awards. Yeah. It opened So you... Yeah. It opened wide two weeks ago. If only I was on the Academy voting, we'd have a different outcome.

One other important Michael Gracie note for my household, which is that it has been reported that he's going to direct the live action Tangled next. Okay. So Tangled is the Rapunzel animated feature that Disney put out, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago, that I remember taking my little sister, Grace, to, who's been a guest of this podcast, when she was like eight or nine, and is now my sister, my daughter's favorite movie. And my daughter-

My sister, my daughter, my sister. That's intense, yeah. Well, younger sister gets complicated. But Rapunzel is in a possession in my household. Tangled is a very fun and pretty creative movie for recent vintage Disney. And frankly, I'd like to see what Michael Gracie could do with it.

What's the Tangled setup? So it's, is it just Rapunzel or what's the twist? She's locked in the tower. She's a girl boss. It's if Rapunzel was a girl boss. She's got more girl bossy qualities, but she's not full girl boss, because she's locked in a tower.

Okay. But how does she get out? By the patriarchy. Did she get out? No. Did she get out by the patriarchy? No, by Mother Gothel. Oh. A mother figure...

Oh, it's girl on girl crime. ...who is siphoning power from Rapunzel's hair. How does she, does she liberate herself? With the help of a man... Oh, no. Rapunzel's hair. How does she, does she liberate herself? With the help of a man named Flynn Rider. Okay. What's Flynn Rider's deal? Flynn Rider is a bandit. He's a male ally.

He has ally qualities. I, in my home often, my daughter will say, I'll be Rapunzel and dad, you be Flynn. And then we'll play as Rapunzel and Flynn. Flynn, I think, is he voiced by Zachary Levi? I think he is, which is not ideal. So we don't want that casting in real life. I think Mandy Moore is Rapunzel. My neighbor, my old neighbor.

Oh, she is. Yeah, a couple bangers in the soundtrack too. Anyway, Tangledled for whatever reason, it's in that middle tier of like The Princess and the Frog, and there's a bunch of movies made in the last 10 years. And Donna Murphy is Mother Gothel, AKA the instructor from Center Stage. Where are you on Center Stage, the film?

I haven't. That's okay. Donna Murphy has an absolute showstopper on the soundtrack to Rapunzel as well, or Tangled as well. Anyway, I would like to see it. Michael Gracie, direct Tangled live action. I need one good Disney live action movie before I die. So maybe that could be the one.

Can I ask a Sean Fennessy style question? Cool, sure. Go for it. What are your guys' favorite music biopic and most disappointing music biopic? Okay, we definitely did an episode about this, but I can't even remember what it was hooked to. Listen, you love Rocketman because remember what it was hooked to. Listen. You love Rocketman because Elton John is your guy.

I do love Elton John. And I just, Sean was, took some swipes at him. I was listening. And I think that that is disrespectful. Elton John is a king. No, I took some swipes at the Better Man, or Never Too Late documentary, which I thought was Binell. Okay.

I think Elton John is an amazing artist. He is the king. Thank you. So I enjoyed Walk the Line. I've never wavered on that. Great movie. Yeah, so that's where I am. And as a result, I also enjoyed

a complete unknown Walk the Line too. I loved it. Yeah. Well, we're gonna pod about one of the best ones. Okay, so you're gonna... I don't know if you wanna spoil that or not. Me and you. Yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, we can spoil it. I think it'll be pretty soon. Connected to your ongoing Britpop series on Bandsplained. No Robbie Williams episode, sorry, guys. We're gonna do a conversation about 24-hour party people, which is more of a music biopic about a label and an era in England. Yeah, like a scene almost. A scene. That one's really good.

I mean, you know, there's a almost. A scene. That one's really good. I mean, you know, there's a couple that are good. I like Control. I hate Control. You know that. You did mention that to me. Speaking of self-serious. It is very self-serious. Should have been a photo book. Make a photo book, Corbjinn.

We'll talk about that when we talk about 24 hour party people. You know, like, these movies are self-serious, but like, Coal Miner's Daughter, What's Love Got to Do With It, the sort of earlier editions of this before they became so rote, I think, but it's usually all of those movies, just like this movie, except in this case it's a CGI chimpanzee, are built on that central performance. And if the person embodies and captures the thing that you like,

the way that Joaquin does in Walk the Line, or the way that Tim D'Chalomé does in A Complete Unknown... Or the Val Kilmer in The Doors movie. Oh, my God. That movie is not very good, but Val Kilmer is incredible. But it does that thing where it's like so not good that it transcends into this piece of art that is so singular and wonderful, because it's crazy.

What about Eight Mile? Does Eight Mile count if the person plays themselves? Good question. It's a good one, though. I think it counts. It's not an M&M story. It's a, you know, he's not, he doesn't become M&M. Right, it's kind of fictionalized.

It's a fictional, it's loosely adapted from his life. I still think very good movie. I loved it. Yeah, important. Lump spaghetti, babe. It's hard, still. I like Amadeus. Yeah, I mean, that's the...

Different version of music biopic, but it is. That's a good one. Yeah, there's a little bit like, Down for Glory, right? He was a musician. Like. That's a good one. He was a musician. That's a good one. Gary Busey, Buddy Holly story. Pretty good. Gary Busey's very good at it. I like Love and Mercy. Yeah, that's good. The Brian Wilson one.

I haven't seen that one. Yeah, that's a good one. And that one also kind of breaks the mold in terms of the way the story is told. La Bamba, that's a good one. La Bamba's great. There's been some. I think most of the best ones. Sid and Nancy.

Sid and Nancy is great. Yeah, we're naming a lot of movies from the 80s and 90s. You know, like it's hard to find recent stuff. What about Behind the Candelabra? I didn't see it, Liberace? Yeah, Liberace, that's a great movie. No, on the Soderbergh episode, you're dissing? I like it, but it's just not my...

You love Elton John, but you don't love Liberace. Oh, that's interesting. No, no, no, no, I just thought, you know, that it was good. Okay. I think it's over-indexed on the Soda Burj. Worst one? Last Days. I'll say it. For me, personally. Most disappointing for me. I almost walked out of the theater.

Uh... I love Mr. Vincent, but what are we doing? You seen that one? The kind of quasi Kurt Cobain? The fake Kurt Cobain one? No. Kind of similar to the Eight Mile thing, except not portrayed by Cobain, obviously. I don't love it. Last days.

There was like a... what felt like a 12-minute scene of him, like, on heroin, making mac and cheese, and I was like... He does look like Kurt. He does. Great casting. Yeah. It's not the best movie. I'll tell you what I don't like is Elvis. Didn't see it. Not interested.

I mean, I would agree, though Austin Butler's very good at it. So, that's fine. I mean, Back to Black is the most recent. Like, I was so offended. That one's a bummer. And the way that it, I still can't believe. Bunch of Baftanoms for that movie, did you see? Listen, you can't. Those were for Amy Winehouse, not for that movie.

I didn't see it though. Marissa Bella will be back in Black Bag. Very excited about that. She's the hot girl from industry. Yes. Among many hot girls, but yeah. Well, one of the hot girls, but like, she is. She's the leading hot girl.

Yes. Love her. It's just not a great... It often produces exciting performances and also often produces bad movies. Better is not a bad movie. But they want it because they make money out of the box office. Not just Sean Finnessy.

It's fun to watch all the people recreate moments that, you know, you weren't there for. Like, listen, the Aretha Franklin biopic was really bad when they start writing respect or arranging respect in the studio. I was like, it's respect! Yeah, you get it. You know what's an interesting example of this that is now 10 years old, which is crazy to think about,

is Get On Up, the James Brown movie. Oh, yeah. Which I think is kind of a mess of a movie, but has this wild Chadwick Boseman performance in it, and is worth it just for that. Um, yeah, it's a, it's, it's not ideal. Should we pivot away from Better Man? Anything else you want to say about it?

No, I loved it. Go see it in the theaters. Let's respect Robert Williams. Okay, Jack Sanders said before we started recording, better than A Complete Unknown. Better, man. You agree. I loved A Complete Unknown. I know that's not a popularly held... I also argued with my Scottish friend,

who's like the biggest Bob Dylan fan. Shout out, Chloe. I was like, I think you're mistaking what this is. Like, you think you need to understand that this is a fun time at the movies and not a piece of art. Like, and if you go into it that way, it's so fun. A complete unknown.

Yeah, no, yeah, of course. I agree. I don't have a lot bad to say about a complete unknown. Did Timothée Chalamet learn guitar and how to sing and everyone's impressed by that? Yeah, so did all my ex-boyfriends. Cool, they're not amazing and deserving of... Their own biopics. Many people learn how to play guitar and sing. So did all my ex-boyfriends. Cool. They're not amazing and deserving of, you know, like...

Their own biopics? Many people learn how to play guitar and sing. How many of them have won the Best Actor Oscar? That's what I'm saying. Okay. Not very many. Just step up. All right.

Let's pivot. Another movie. Another, another example, I think, of a good movie that is sort of dumped, but it's also maybe just smart programming from a studio's perspective. That's One of Them Days, which came out last Friday, the 17th, which is directed by Lawrence Lamont, written by Syrita Singleton, who was the showrunner on the last season of Rap Shit on Max.

Produced by Issa Rae, notably, who created Rap Shit, and starring Kiki Palmer, SZA, Maude Apatow, and Cat Williams, among many others. This is a movie that feels like it was teleported in from 1998. In the best way possible. Yeah, it's great. Extremely fun. I've seen a couple of comparisons to movies like Friday.

I've seen Greg Araki's Smiley Face as a comparison point. I think a lot of like, Bill Murray buddy comedies from the 80s you can see. You can see a lot of the, um, uh, like, Romeo and Michelle sprung to mind while watching this. Uh, obviously, Girl's Trip is an influence on the movie. Bridesmaids. Bridesmaids.

Um, it's about two friends who are roommates who, um, are late on their rent and need to make money all across one day. That's basically the whole plot of the story. Kiki and SZA are the friends. It's like the plot of Friday, basically, with two tweaks or whatever. So we got to get money, otherwise we're going to get kicked out of our place or killed by a gangster. Or killed by this large gangster, yeah. And I don't know how deep a conversation this needs to be.

This movie's got super funny set pieces, great cameos, the jokes are good. Yeah. We have mentioned, like, when will Kiki Palmer be, like, elevated into a place that she deserves to be in. This is, like, a perfect use of her talents. Okay, can I say one little thing about that? Sure. I love Kiki Palmer. I did love this movie.

But I was a little bit like, oh, man, I feel like we almost lose something when she's the straight man. Right. Interesting. Because she's so... She can be so funny. She's so funny when she's like bigger and more wacky. And not saying she's, she's gorgeous. She can totally play the main person.

But I was a little bit like, oh, like this did handicap a little bit of like what she's capable of on the other side. Right. It's an interesting point because she gets moments where that jumps out in the a little bit of like what she's capable of on the other side. Right. It's an interesting point, because she gets moments where that jumps out in the movie, especially when SZA is not on screen, and it's more trained on Kiki.

But that's actually like a, it's an art. It's an art like Bill Murray and Chevy Chase and all those guys. Totally. Yeah, yeah. Even Will Ferrell to some extent, like those leading men who get to be at the center of these madcap comedies, often have to be able to do both. They have to be the relatable everyman,

and they also have to have the slapsticky big performance style. It's a test of a true kind of movie stardom. I think she did it in this movie. She also has great chemistry with SZA. And SZA was... I mean, surprisingly great. SZA was hilarious, but it is also, you know, she is playing off of Kiki Palmer. So, like, Kiki Palmer has the ability to, like, ground it

and make it... make them work. Just, like, really funny. Did you know SZA was gonna be an actor? I don't think... Is this her debut? Yes, it is. She did a kind of amazingly good... ...for her first one. Really, really, really, really funny.

Her Hot Ones, or their Hot Ones. They did, They did like a three person hot one with Issa Rae. Oh my God, it is genuinely really, really funny. No, it's a good idea. Yeah, no, she was very good. Like all the bits are good, you know? Like the biscuit stealing and the payday loans lady who I just want to shout out. Her name is Kila Monorosa Mejia

and she is incredibly funny. She stole the show, I believe. She really, really did. She was extremely funny in the last two seasons of Curb Your Enthusiasm, if you didn't see those. She has a great part in the second to last season of Curb Your Enthusiasm. But like every character and bit that shows up

and every time like, you know, another obstacle gets thrown at them because that's the structure of the movie, like they all work. They're all very, which is rare. So I was quite amused by it. The heed was not taken. Took me out. I love Cat Williams. I do too. His part in particular... It's really funny.

He's obviously like has been, has had a amazing comedy career tinged with a certain kind of straight talk social commentary. It's funny when he gets to do basically his act inside of a movie. This happens from time to time. It happened on Atlanta when he had that guest spot in Atlanta. But, you know, he's kind of just doing a Cat Williams routine about why you should never do a payday loan. Um, and it's really great. Really funny.

And he's like, I feel like, isn't there like some like archetypal story trope of like the shepherd or you know, the goddess? Isn't it the goddess? I know my brother's obsessed with those... Ways you structure stories and how a person comes in. Blessing the Northman. He calls it the goddess, yeah. Attempting to get to Valhalla with the person who guides you along. In a way, in a way. And he popped up at every corner to like guide them.

Yeah, absolutely. And like, if you, this is a very grand statement, but there is a kind of Odyssey-like approach to this. Like, little Raoul Howrie is like one of the tricksters, you know. It's a hero's journey. It is a hero's journey, truly. Also a beautiful LA thing. I mean, I think you're from here. Like, for me, I was like, this is so, all of it is so from that Norms.

I've been to so many times. Oh, on La Cienega, that's the best. I love that Norms. It is a very L.A. movie. And it is just a very nostalgic kind of comedy that you could reliably get two or three or four of these in movie theaters every year. I think I read that this is the first all-black female comedy made by a studio since Girl's Trip.

Which sounds insane, because Girl Girls Trip was such a breakout. But this movie did what basically every movie like it does every time, which is sort of overperforms the projections at the box office, because there's obviously black audiences that want to go out, show out for these movies. I saw it at the Regal LA Live on Wednesday night. Sold out at 8 p.m. on a Wednesday. Oh, that's fine.

And like, people want movies like this.m. on a Wednesday. That's fine. And like, people want movies like this. They're great, they're fun. Okay, can I just say something that your soul is gonna leave your body? You neglected to warn me that it ends with their house burning down. I don't think I knew when I asked you to do it.

Just a little too soon, John. I'm sorry, I apologize about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, not this. You're going to have a lot of traumatic experiences at the cinema because of this incident. I actually just made it up. I was like, oh, really? Interesting. Um...

Yeah. Had I say one other thing that was the one part I couldn't suspend my disbelief for? Sure. That art is bad, babe. SZA's character's art. Yeah. Like, this is, okay, wait, I'm by $6're like, this is, I can't wait. I'm gonna buy $650.

Would that be the first time that bad art became popular? Sure. Yes, fair. We just talked about Robbie Williams, you know? Oh, my God. The disrespect. Angels is a... ...sensation. Okay. All right. It's a hit.

On our Robbie Williams, you're gonna be doing great. You're gonna be lauded for your respect for angels. I'm making a lot of appearances on various subreddits, just so you know. You have been? Yes, I sent you the one from the big picture where someone was like, Yassi's Alex House burned down. Unhappy face. Yeah. First heard of her on the big, big episode about Hot Frosty.

She was hilarious. And I was like, thank you. You gotta be careful receiving feedback from Reddit. And valorizing it. Speaking of the Hot Frosty episode, my neighbors also came, they were like, hey, Yassi was very funny on the Hot Frosty. Yeah, yeah, Gene NRS, they're listening, they're fans. Hi, guys, thank you so much.

So it's not just Reddit, you know? Thank you for my opportunity to shine. Support for Yassi and Hot Frosty is everywhere. This is what happens when you turn your life over to cinema, though. You know, you find new voices and new people. I was there, you know, you saw my New Year's resolution. I was hot on Letterboxd. I was averaging a film a day and then we had some personal tragedy.

But we're back now. Okay, so you're back to the cinema tonight? Maybe not tonight. Okay, so the other movies that we're talking about in this episode, I want to know which of the movies you will go see. Okay, great. I love this. So, after you depart, Amanda and I will talk about back in action, which is on Netflix. Which is what? Stars Cameron Diaz and Jamie Foxx. Okay. It's the number one movie on Netflix as we're recording. I

love her wine. Oh, so you're an Abilene person? Yes, because it is very healthy. Well, is it healthy or is that just the marketing? I think. Yeah, no, no. I mean, it's true. We talked a lot about this. I think both. Yeah, no, no. I mean, it's true. We talked a lot about this. I'm a health influencer, as you guys know also. Bobby knows. No, I just anecdotally, you know, R of one, as they say, I feel better when I drink that. R of one.

Okay. That's a hubris. And it's organic. My initial understanding of it was that it's sugar-free, which as Sean pointed out, is not possible for alcohol. Not possible, yeah. I don't think it's sugar-free. But I do think it has less tannin. Don't quote me on this. Avaline wine is great.

There's three flavors. It's like red, white, and rosé. So yeah, I'll see it. I actually really like it. I think we did it as a part of our taste test. I believe we did. I don't remember liking it very much. And it's co-owned with... Was it a rosé or white? It was a rosé. Uh, they have both. They have both. They have both.

We did it arguably way too late in the process to really assess it. To assess it. No, no, but so... We had assaulted our tongues by them. So we had like a nice time. And then it's co-owned by Catherine Power, who founded Merit, the makeup brand. And that's how my love affair...

Well, I already liked Merritt, but then Vanessa and Merritt was listening and sent me stuff, so send some stuff to Yassi Merritt. I did this all my makeup. If any makeup brands are listening, skincare, I'm open to packages. I have a PO box. Yeah, I'll see that one.

What, I can't be a burnt-down house in France? She really does. I hope many people send you things. As I told you, Sean, on one hand, did I lose all of my personal belongings that I loved and treasured for 30 years? Yes. On the other hand, I love attention. Conflicting. Real devil's bargain here for you.

I think you'd rather have your belongings. Yeah, but you gotta look at the bright side. Well, let's try to send Yase as much shit as possible. You want some wine too? Yes. Camille, are you listening? Um... Which flavor? What do you mean by...

Of the red, white, or rosé? Is that how it's described? That's what you say when you show up to Napa. Me and Amanda are sommeliers. I don't know if you know that about us. You're certainly drinkers. Wow, the shade. I'm a drinker. Your Catholic jumped out right there. Nothing, nothing.

I'm just IDing, spotting my own in the wild. Any closing thoughts? What, did you want to ask me more movies? Yeah, Presence, the ghost story that Steven Soderbergh is directing. You know that I unfortunately don't. It's not that I don't like them. I'm a weak, weak person who cannot handle horror movies.

Especially when... It's not really horror. It's like, I'm the same way. Oh, you saw it. It seems like it's riddled with jump scares, which is the one thing I... No, it's not. It's kind of the opposite. Okay, then I'll do it.

More of a meditation. My girl Julia Fox is in it, and we stan Julia Fox. Amusing casting. Yes, she's very funny. Okay, I'll say that. What about... And I love Lucy Luke. Wolfman.

Speaking of your horror concern. That's gonna be a no from MeDog. I also skipped that one. Flight Risk. Directed by Mel Gibson, starring Mark Wahlberg. I think it's like... Takes place entirely on a three-seater plane. Okay.

It's like, you know how Mark Wahlberg was like, if I had been on the 9-11 plane, I would have saved it. Yeah, I would have saved it, which is like a real Mark Wahlberg quote. It's, they turned that into a three-seater plane movie. It was like a mag of three-seater. He said not only would he have saved it,

he said, it wouldn't have gone down like that. That is the quote. Great. Incredible that you had your fingertips, Bob. Love it. I think about it, no joke, every day of my fucking sad life. God grant me 10% of the self-confidence of Mark Wahlberg. It's done wonders for his life.

Yeah. Now he just wakes up at 2 a.m. to work out. Do you know about that as well? You know about his schedules? Oh, sure. Is that part of your health plan? No. You know what? I came, I had a, we don't have to get into it, but I had a dalliance with procuring some black market peptides from a sinister gay man in West Hollywood prior to the house burning down that really set me back on the right path of like, you need to find Jesus and stop being so insane. Okay, with like the peptides. You're still insane telling that story here,

is truly crazy. It's not illegal. You're still insane telling that story here. It's true to crazy. No, I think it's not illegal. No, I didn't say that. But then I was like, maybe just be normal a little bit. I mean, it can never be totally normal, but... Yeah, I'm not counting my protein grams anymore if that says anything.

I'm not either. I was trying. Yeah. We need to be free from the shackles of cottage cheese, you know? I can't take it anymore. I'm tired. We only have so much life left. And now it's fiber, so... It's just like, I'm so tired. Fine, I'm going to breathe in the toxic air

and I'm going to have microplastics and that's fine. I used to do bags of drugs that I found in trailers backstage at Coachella. I'm doing great. This has been a revelatory appearance by you. My dad doesn't listen to this show. Okay. I'm not going to see that show. Okay, I'm not gonna see that movie. Okay, that's the whole list.

Yasi, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. Listen to Bandsplained. That's such a wonderful time. Gotcha, finally, pod with Amanda. I know, it's great. But you'll be back soon, right? Won't be the last time.

Yeah, Bridget Jones. Yes, Bridget Jones. Yeah, you're on the spreadsheet. Do you know that? Do you have access to the spreadsheet? No, and I don't. You're on it. I will not be granting you access to the spreadsheet. I don't have access to the spreadsheet. Do you know that? Do you have access to the spreadsheet? No, and I don't. You're on it. I will not be granting you access to the spreadsheet. Uh, is there... Are you a Paddington person?

Oh my God, babe. Am I a Paddington person? Okay, well that episode is it. That's a Paddington and Bridget Jones episode. Wow. Yeah. I love Paddington. Do you know how much Paddington should I bought when I went to the UK? It was like my suitcase was full of Paddington shit. Did you know that there was a recent Gap-Paddington collaboration, if you're looking?

I don't know whether they made adult sizes. It's mostly for kids. I can fit into a kid's small. Um, yeah. It's very big in my house with the children. So, but it's a good stuff. They made a duffel coat, a Paddington duffel coat. It's honestly a good coat.

You should check out the sizes. I want a Paddington Gap. Sounds like you're headed to the Gap immediately after this recording. Is it currently in stores? It was for December, so maybe now it's on sale. Also if anyone at Gap is listening, Yassi would love some Paddington for Gap materials. The bear is listening.

I would love a hug. Thanks Yassi. Thank you so much, guys. I'm so worried about my sister. You're engaged. You cannot marry a murderer. I was sick, but I am healing. Returning to W network and stack TV. The West Side Ripper is back.

If you're not killing these people, then who is? That's what I want to know. Starring Kaylee Cuoco and Chris Messina. The only investigating I'm doing these days is who shit their pants. Killer messaged you yesterday? This is so dangerous. I gotta get out of this. Based on a true story. New season premieres tonight at 9 Eastern and Pacific. Only on W. Stream on StackTV.

Okay, we're back. It's just me and you. Mm-hmm. How you feeling? Great. Do you feel like you're back. It's just me and you. Mm-hmm. How are you feeling? Great. Do you feel like you're back in action? You know, you've got two children in your home. You know, you're a lady, a lady in the world. I'm pleased to announce that Back in Action is actually an autobiographical film of what

happened when I tried to institute Monday Night Movies with my three-year-old son. Not going well? No. No, it's too bad. I did, I thought of you while watching this new film, which is a... That's an insult. I thought this sucked. It's very bad.

Yeah. So this movie's directed by Seth Gordon, who's made some kind of funny movies in the past, Horrible Bosses. Sure. It's about two CIA spies who retire, played by Cameron Diaz and Jamie Foxx. They also happen to be married.

Mm-hmm. And then they get sucked back into the world of espionage and thrills and MacGuffins. And also, it's a funny comedy with lots of hand-to-hand combat. I thought of you because it's also about raising a teenage daughter. I don't have a teenage daughter.

Well, soon you will. One day I shall. Yeah. And the little boy is just like, hey, look at my cool wearable technology, you know? He's not a problem. But Cameron Diaz is working through a lot with her mother. Yes.

Who is played by a British Glenn Close. Glenn Close affecting a British accent. Sure. Not a British woman who is Glenn Close. That's correct. And then Cameron Diaz is also trying to work through her relationship with her teen daughter. Here's what, here are some notes I've made about this film. I'd like to share them with you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a Mr. and Mrs. Smith meets family switch action comedy, AKA red notice for moms. I object to this slander against moms here, okay? Like I am, I too am a mom, not all moms. Not all moms, unless you're Cameron Diaz in this film. Not all moms. This is a sub genre that I am calling wall burgalia. Okay, yeah.

It's not a flower, it's not a city in Luxembourg. It's a breezy, semi-competent, weightless form of wallpaper movie. Okay. There's nothing wrong with it, but the better the talent associated with a movie like this, the more enervating this movie can be.

Cameron Diaz and Jamie Foxx are way too good for this movie. Unfortunately, they're not good in it. I mean, they're not anything in it. They're not really asked to do anything other than just be charming the way they would be charming in a commercial for vodka. That's really what it kind of feels like they're doing. Yeah, but even broader than vodka because it's family. Like, it's family and it's supposed to be about,

-"I love my mom." -"A commercial for potato chips." Sure, yes, exactly. It is a mass consumption product. But they have a little bit of that thing that... They're reading lines as if they just need to get to the end of them as fast as possible, which is what I associate with like, it's how I would act. Are you sure you weren't watching it at 1.5x on Netflix?

No, I wasn't. Can I tell you something? I watched this while taking a bath. And... It's the chilling visual. That's... You don't... No one asked you to visualize it, okay? Sorry, my mind is so strong. And so, I would say like the 30 minutes where I was just like

in the bath really engaged. Not to... I'm really reluctant to explore this more deeply, but like laptop perched on the bath? iPad in the shelving, the shelves that we had built, like directly on one side of the bath. There's, you know, that very famous image, I don't know if you've ever seen it from A Nightmare on Elm Street, where Heather Langenkamp is taking a bath

and she sees Freddy Krueger's hand emerge from the bathtub. Right. I picture that, but the iPad appearing from the water, screening back in action for you. No, it was just, it was set on the lowest little shelf. Okay. And I watched about 30 minutes when they go to London. Well, and I had started it earlier and then got in the bath.

And that part I was really locked in. And then it was time to get out of the bath and, you know, kind of do my nighttime routine. So I just kept it going on the shelf. So I wouldn't say that I was like deeply engaged, but I do think I was watching it the way that most people watch a Netflix film, which is like while doing other stuff.

This is one of the best, most recent examples of like the wheat and the chaff of real movie and Netflix movie. Yeah. Because there's a lot of people here who've worked on Hollywood movies, big productions. Cameron Diaz and Jamie Foxx are huge stars. I mean, they are really incredibly famous. Right, and Cameron Diaz hasn't been making movies for almost 15 years.

And so this is also her back in action. You know, this is about her. Very much. It's framed around her going back into action, not just the character. It's been 11 years since she was in a movie role. She took a long break, I guess, to get married, start her wine business. She has a family?

Yeah, she has a family, so she's been spending time with them. You know, this movie comes one year after Argyle. And when we talked about Argyle, we talked about wink action. There's something going on with this subgenre where this is, it's like mutating in real time. This movie is now part of this ongoing thing that is happening where big movie stars in the aftermath of John Wick,

and maybe we should have called it Wick Wink Action, are now participating in these movies. And this movie has a ton of it, where you've got either act like famous movie stars or their stunt doubles in lots of hand to hand combat. Yes, and it's really their stunt doubles because the cuts on and the wigs are like very obvious. Very obvious in this movie.

But then now later this year, we've got Love Hurts, the Kiwi Kwan Ariana Debo's movie that feels very similar though Kiwi Kwan doesn't use as much as Sun Double as often as many of these other actors. Nobody too is coming out with Bob Odenkirk and then this Jack Quaid movie Novocaine and you know, there's a long lineage of this stuff, Atomic Blonde and the Wick movies and the Leech and Stahelski movies, but now they've kind of found it into this like very silly, serious style of action movie. And this is a really low form of it.

And it being the movie where Cameron Diaz comes back is just kind of strange because she had a very up and down movie career, but she was a part of a lot of great movies. Yes, and very funny. A great comedian. And that's something I want to ask you about, like her career and kind of where she fits in because she's been like multiple Golden Globe nominee. She's been in some very well...

Okay, J.Lo. Well, you know, she was, hard to forget, like she was nominated for Vanilla Sky. I think she was nominated for Being John Malkovich. Like she was in good movies. Yes, she was. And her career took like a more broad comedy direction over the last 10 years when she started

doing, like, Bad Teacher and Sex Tape, and she was in the Annie musical. And then that's when she stepped away. But through the first 15 years of her career, she was a staple figure. And I started writing down, like, generationally what she was, like, lineage-wise, what she was a part of.

And I was like, is it Carol Lombard or Claudette Colbert? Is it Jane Fonda or is it Diane Keaton? Is it Kathleen Turner or is it Meg Ryan? Like, she was always kind of straddling the line between... sex pot, daffy woman, like, um, independent-minded, you know, I don't need a man type figure. Right. And, you know, to her credit need a man type figures. Right.

And, you know, to her credit, like she really kind of bounced around between all those kinds of identities. And then now she's just in like this... Now she's like a mom. Yeah. You know, just like, she looks great, she looks beautiful. Jamie Foxx too, he's like 57 years old. He looks like he's 30.

They look great. And I will say like the one time I laughed was during one of those action sequences, which are just like really bad and so obviously like cut and cut around the two actors and also like weirdly violent. Very violent. And I'm just like, what did you think that I was tuning in to watch? But anyway. But can I pitch a theory about that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. These sequences are in these movies because they want you to look up from your phone. Sure. That you're not paying attention to the dialogue and then something crazy happens. But I have to tell you, that's when I stopped watching, for the most part.

I was just checking in for the plot points, which are bad, except... Plot points. Well, the one surprised me because I was only paying like 20% attention. The Kyle Chandler one. Listen, stop spoiling shit for people. Telegraphed from a mile away.

Well, I thought it was gonna be Andrew Scott. Yeah. Because, you know... The most like, if you've seen one spy movie ever, you know what's happening in this movie. Once again, I watched him get shot in the bath. Uh-huh. And then I got out...

He wasn't shot in a bath, you were in the bath when he was shot in the film. Yeah, and then I got out and I had to do my, like, red light mask. So, and it's really hard to... Do you know about this? Yeah, you're, you're conjuring the substance right now, so... I'm not injecting anything. It's just me. Both weeks of, you know...

Okay, did I tell you that Eileen tried to watch The Substance last night? Oh, no. Didn't go well. No, she didn't like it? No. After 30 minutes, she said there's too much injecting going on in this movie. Both weeks of, you know... Did I tell you that Eileen tried to watch The Substance last night? Oh, no. Didn't go well. No, she didn't like it? No. After 30 minutes she said there's too much injecting going on in this movie. Okay.

And then I said it gets a lot worse than that. Yeah, no it does. I think she bailed. The injections were fine, but you know, I lived through a lot of that. Anyway, I was doing my mask, my red light and blue light mask at once. So it's kind of like hard to see the screen, you know? When the light's like... So you were doing them while the movie was on?

Yeah. Okay, that's very respectful. I mean, I was like washing my face, I was brushing my teeth, you know, I was doing all of the things. AirPods or no, oh no, no AirPods. No AirPods, yeah. The good reminder to help me like order those.

Yeah, those had some ash in them, so they're gone. Okay. It's fine, I had washed them already, you know? So they weren't performing at the highest level. So I missed the, I was surprised by the plot twist, but I tended to be like, I was like, okay, you're doing another junkie action sequence, I can look away.

The only one I did watch was the one where the teen daughter is watching it, and I guess the son is too. And at one point, Cameron Diaz, and I do actually think it is Cameron Diaz who headbutts someone. Mm-hmm. In the club, you're talking about?

Yeah. No, I would have said this was like at the rest stop. Okay. And I do think that she's headbutting. Mm-hmm. And then the teenage daughter is like, Mom! And Cameron Diaz like, while moving,

it's like, honey, she's fine. You know, it wasn't that hard or something. And I thought that was funny and I laughed. And it was just, that. And Cameron Diaz like, while moving, it's like, honey, she's fine. You know, it wasn't that hard or something. And I thought that was funny. And I laughed. And it was just, that was like the one glimmer of like real Cameron Diaz. And then it went away.

And she had to like feel anguished because her mom was Glenn Close, who was an MI6 officer. And then sent Cameron Diaz to boarding school. So then she was CIA. Why couldn't this just be American? I think Glenn Close wanted to have some fun.

That's the impression I get. Well, also you've got Andrew Scott as the MI6 officer. And so the way that he- And I guess like London tax credits? Perhaps. Yeah. Perhaps it did get us Jamie Demetreux in the movie. I don't know if you're familiar with him. British comic actor. He was very funny.

His sister, Natasha, is in What We Do in the Shadows and is absolutely hilarious on that TV show. Oh, right, right, right. Both of them are great. He's innocent in this movie. This movie is very bad. Glenn Close, you didn't see, I assume, because you were on Leave, Lee Daniels' The Deliverance, did you?

I did not. This is a horror movie that Lee Daniels made that was released on Netflix in September. It was good? You liked it? No, it's terrible. But you know what? I shouldn't say that. It's not terrible. It's just wild and ridiculous. There has not quite been a horror movie like it before, but it's almost entirely all Black cast,

except for Glenn Close, who is a woman in the Deep South living within a black community and affecting a black community attitude. Yeah. And it's funny and weird and stupid, and it's just a lot. And she's having fun right now. She's doing whatever she wants to do, knowing that she will never win an Academy Award You think it's never now? Well, if you keep taking on parts like back in action and the deliverance you will not win an Academy Award

And Hillbillyology, which I haven't forgotten Very strange. This is like really really bad And I thought a little bit of spy kids Bobby while watching it. Damn shots fired Well, I mean it's's the parents were spies, and the kids, like, at the end sort of saved the day. The kids aren't involved, but that's the problem. It's like, it doesn't quite get to Spy Kids, but it's trying to have, like, the family tone,

but then it's also trying to do weird, fake, super violent stuff. Like, what are we doing? Yeah, Spy Kids is way more charm than this movie, for sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah, what are we doing? Yeah, Spy Kids is way more charm than this movie, for sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah, it sucks. Really bad. This is the true Dumpuary candidate

of this discussion today. Yeah, two thumbs down. OK, well, great seeing you. Ha ha ha ha. Thanks so much. Gonna bring in CR now, I think. How do you feel about that? You want to say anything about presents?

You've seen presents, right? I have. It was great. And thank you to the kind people, it's Neon, right? Who sent it to me like three weeks after Sy was born and I did watch it. But, you know, my brain at that point. I don't think I have like an elevated,

there's a reason I'm not gonna sit in on the conversation with you guys, but I liked it. I mean, you know what? I like it when Steven Soderbergh tries things. And it's a very, just my guy trying things again. Very much is. I'll talk about it with Chris now, along with Wolfman and Flight Risk.

Thanks, Amanda. Let's go to CR. ["Flight Risk"] Chris Ryan is here. Headed to the Super Bowl. Congratulations. Thanks, man. You're always so benevolent about your praise of Philadelphia and Philadelphia sports. Mm, tricky, tricky Super Bowl. Congratulations. Thanks, man. You're always so benevolent about your praise of Philadelphia

and Philadelphia sports. Tricky, tricky Super Bowl for a lot of fans. I understand. Unless you're from Philadelphia or Kansas City, we say congratulations to you guys. I think that these are two of the four best teams. Agreed. Agreed. Well earned. Yeah. No question. But not the most exciting. But I'm happy for you.

I'm happy to have you here in Dumpuary. It would not be Dumpuary if you were not here on the pod with me. And we've got three titles to discuss. In a short period of time, you've got to get out of here. You've got another pod to do. What are you talking about on the watch today? We're talking about Severance, and we're talking about the agency,

and we'll probably just talk about Vic Fangio and whether or not he can legally become our father soon. I see. In the meantime, speaking of fathers, let's start with Wolfman. Also, you take your time, man. Okay. Andy can wait. All right, thank you. I appreciate that.

I know that's not how you really feel, but I appreciate you saying that. Wolfman is a story about fathers in many ways. This is the new film directed by Lee Whannell. This is his, I guess his third consecutive movie for Blumhouse now. Upgrade, Invisible Man, and now this. Yes, his fourth directorial feature.

He's got to start as a writer working with James Wan. Many years ago, you may remember him from the film Saw, where he was one of the victims in that movie. Wolfman is an adaptation of Wolfman. It's one of the most legendary universal monster movies that we have. What Whannell did with The Invisible Man, I thought was fairly ingenious.

One of the last films released wide before COVID hit. Um, that movie did pretty good business and I think very smartly centered the lead monster into the villain role of the movie. This movie sort of attempts to do the same thing. It stars Christopher Abbott, Julia Garner, and it's a very contained, constrained, intimate horror movie. It's not done well at the box office and has not gotten good reviews.

And yet you saw the film and you texted me and what did you say? I said I liked it. And what I think I mean is that I think I can make the case for it. Okay. Is this the substance for guys who care about macros? I have a totally different read on this film,

but please fire away. I think a totally different read on this film, but please fire away. Um, I think I can make a couple of different, like what this movie is about in theory arguments more than I can make an argument about why it might be an enjoyable film to watch. Okay. Uh, a bunch of the movies we're going to talk about today feel like leftover COVID movies that like are two-handers, three-handers, limited sets or very isolated sets.

So this is shot in New Zealand. A couple of the other films we're gonna talk about just feel very like we got a room for you guys to go into after you test and we'll shoot it and we'll fix it later. This is like, I think it was very much, at least the story itself feels rooted in that experience, whereas the other ones feel like they may be suffered from or the especially one of

them feels like it's suffered because of that but yeah like I just feel like this movie could be about a monster movie about killing your dad a movie about the impossibility of connection with anyone other than blood mm-hmm or a movie about blue-collar cosplay gone wrong the last one is a bit. I'm not sure it's in the text. My reaction to the movie, which I don't think is very successful for a variety of reasons, is that it's a decent drama about not

fucking up your kids. One of the core ideas of the movie that opens with Abbott's character as a young as like a ten year old boy traversing the forests of the Pacific Northwest with his father, who is mindful of the dangers of life. You could say that, yes.

He's a sort of a paranoid about what could happen. And I guess the implication is, is that his wife has died somehow in a tragic way. Yes, apparently there was a cut scene from the movie where she has MS, I think, or ALS. Okay. Yeah. And so that has created a sense of isolation and paranoia in this father figure

who then hands it down to the Christopher Abbott character. You know, through a series of phantasmagoric events, we learn that there is a, like, canthropec disease going around in this part of the Pacific Northwest. Christopher Abbott's character has to go back with his wife, Julia Garner, and their young child. To save their marriage. Yes, to save their marriage.

Because she loves working too much. Yes, she's a journalist. That's like the San Francisco Chronicle or something. Okay. She keeps getting scooped by the Times. It's an amazing scene where she just walks into the apartment, she's not using AirPods or headphones. She's like on the phone. And she's like, are we just going to get scooped by the Times again?

Would you say that that's how you feel listening to competing TV pods? Um... No, I don't. I want everybody to succeed and I also just think that if you just do your thing, the people will come. You actually do believe that. And I appreciate you saying it out loud. Do you feel that way about film pods?

I used to be so competitive and now I'm like, we got what we do. And I feel good about it. I feel actually... There's only one Amanda, you know? Honestly true. That is how I feel. There's no one could possibly replicate whatever's usually happening in that chair. And God bless her for it.

The problem with the movie for me ultimately is that it's not scary. Yeah. We can debate whether or not it's effective as a Wolfman movie, which is often like such a heavy metaphor for the sort of feral nature of masculinity and our inability to communicate. And so we turn into animals and all these things that, you know, you can find going all the way back

to the 41 Lon Chaney version of the movie, which is an excellent 70 minute classic monster movie. Yeah. It's been really hard to make a good werewolf movie and especially a good wolf man movie. There was one, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago that Joe Johnson directed starring Benicio del Toro. Yes.

Which has some cool monster effects, but is more of like a chamber piece and more of a historical story and I don't think works quite as well. There's the Mike Nichols, Jack Nicholson one. Wolf, of course. I think an American werewolf in London is probably the best loved of the more recent vintage,

but that's going back almost 40 years now. I'm a big fan of Dog Soldiers. I mean, we're getting into just werewolf in London is probably the best loved of the more recent vintage, but that's going back almost 40 years now. I'm a big fan of Dog Soldiers. I mean, we're getting into just werewolf movies, not wolfman movies, but... The wolf, just like normal guy turns into a wolfman thing, it's hard to do. Now, this movie, the actual makeup effects are good, but I didn't like the transition.

It's kind of a slow transition into the wolfman, and it becomes much more about, you know... I heard my friend Elric Elric Kane said this on his podcast that this reminded him a lot of the fly We're Brundle fly in the fly like very slowly starts to become a fly Yeah, and Christopher Abbott very slowly becomes a wolf man in this movie, and I I just wanted to see him Just be full wolfie. You know I wanted to see me teen wolf Yes, I never does that there was like Wolf. Yes. And he never does that? There was like a moment in the beginning of the movie where, so the Julia Garner character, the Christopher Abbott character,

and their daughter Ginger, or, you know, they're on their way to his late father's farm, which he hasn't been to in decades. They get lost and a mountain man who is also living there, who I take it to be like the kid who was like the son of their family friend, and like the radio chatter gets in the truck and all of a sudden introduces this element of like mystery because it you can't quite tell if this guy's friend or foe he's sort of on one hand seems to be mocking their urbane snowflake kind of tenderness but is also like you should be happy about that because that means you've had a good life and like you're not like made hard to the world.

And that guy leaves the film quickly. And I thought that the rest of the movie kind of... There's nothing wrong with the performances. I think Abbott and Garner are two of the kind of like finer actors of their generation in a lot of ways. There are big reasons why I was super excited. And Abbott brings a ton to like the early scenes and even you can tell it just goes for it in the transformation.

He's like, I watched hours and hours and hours of animal videos to try and get the gate down. But there was something kind of like, they needed another thing in this movie. They needed something that demanded that the two adult characters interact with or something. Like there was something missing from that element. And like you said, there was something missing from the scares. There was like two good set pieces, but they're kind of devoid of suspense. The car and then headed onto the top of the car in the greenhouse.

Yeah, that was very effective. I thought the two best sequences of the movie were the opening sequence with the sort of the hunting spy tower and the fear of kind of what was below, and then that sequence that you just described, where they come across this guy who he hasn't seen in many years. I've seen other people ask this, but... So we can just talk about this openly, right? I guess so. I mean, this movie's gonna be on streaming in like a week.

Yeah. Other people have mentioned this, but why if the guy is like, I'm so... You have to understand, like, everything could be taken from you. His... Blake's dad in the first scene is like, everything can be taken away from you. Why does he have him in this incredibly dangerous, remote part of Oregon? I think he's just trying to teach him to be a survivalist.

That was my impression was that you gotta see up close what you're up against. And I wouldn't say that that's my parenting style. Right. But I'm trying to avoid wolf contact wherever possible. Nevertheless, I think the other challenge is just Julia Garner is just too young for this part. You know, she's like, she was 28,

I think, when they made this movie. And she's the daughter of an eight-year-old kid. And she's a high-powered journalist. Like, I just don't think I really bought their relationship. I didn't really buy her. She's a really, really talented actor, but she's in an interesting pivot point of her career where she's played kind of like the trickster younger woman.

Yeah. And now she's going into full-blown. Like I'm in my 30s. Yeah. I can't have it all, yeah. Well, I mean, she doesn't ultimately in this movie for a variety of reasons, but you know, I would have liked for this to have been better,

especially because you and I were both, we were both really enthusiastic about Upgrade, which did we see together at South By? I don't think we saw it together, but we saw it at the same South By Southwest. Okay. I heard the next Megan is supposed to be Upgrade-y vibes. Interesting. Yeah.

Terminator style. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds exciting. And Invisible Man, I thought was ingenious. And so this is a bit of a step down and that's really unfortunate. Did you notice that in this movie, Abbott's character is like all car-hearted out in the beginning, but like fashionable car-heart? I did.

And then by the end of it, he's wearing a US Marines fatigue shirt and has become Wolf. Like he's gone from the like... You don't get this? He's gone from the like, you can buy this identity this? He's gone from the, like, you can buy this... You're kind of in throwing fits territory here, you know? Shout out to throwing fits. Like, you're just like, what a man's wear can tell us about the man.

You're giving us some Derek Guy die work wear? No, no, no, no, no, no. I think it's interesting that this guy is, like, an unemployed writer who's wearing all of the, like, accoutrement ofoutrement of like a working-class like I get after it guy Oh, I see right even this was class commentary about my culture is not your costume, but then by becoming the wolf He actually earns his his wardrobe. Can I pitch something at you? I feel like if you could, you would take the wolf juice. Like if you could become a wolf man, you would do it.

Is that right? Wouldn't that have been an amazing version of this is like guys who opt into being the wolf man? It's kind of like getting blackpilled. Yeah. But for feral activity. Yeah. Wolfpilled.

Okay, you wanna move on? Sure. Speaking of wolves, flight risk. Okay. You want to move on? Sure. Speaking of wolves, flight risk. Okay. So let's film together. This movie eats absolute shit. Like this movie might actually be a crime against cinema. Oh, it's very bad.

There's open and naked use of AI in like the first scene. You think that moose was AI? It looked like the moose or like an animal from like a really bad Coke Christmas commercial where they're like, we used AI to make this. This was something I was saying when I was talking about the brutalist AI controversy where I'm just like, this is happening in movies all the time

and we just don't know because the filmmakers are not telling us. And now we're getting to a point where things are appearing in movies and you're like, huh. I guess it's like, that's not a moose. So is it like animation or CGI? I mean it's CGI, but who created it moose. So is it like animation or CGI? Yeah, right.

You know, was it the same artist who built Thanos, you know, drafting this moose? These craftsmen are listening to the big picture. It's really, I wonder if Sean and Chris. Like, why am I catching strays in this shitty Mel Gibson movie? Mel Gibson directed this movie. And let me just say, so Eats Absolute Shit, Crime Against Cinema, like, et cetera.

Yeah, down the list. Didn't move an inch during the entire film. I was riveted, yeah. I was riveted knowing it was bad. Yeah. But I, you and I are both prone to getting up to go to the bathroom during a movie. Neither of us did. Well, you were like, I was like, you wanted candy before we start. You bought tickets, I'll buy the food.

And you're like, you know what, I plan on getting up. I heard this isn't very good. And I didn't. Reader, no you didn't. I didn't have a single Sour Patch Kid that night. Um, this movie stars Mark Wahlberg, Michelle Dockery, and Topher Grace. Yep. This, that was the aspect of it that had me going in,

hoping it was going to be good. When I saw the trailer at CinemaCon, I told you and Amanda, this is a cool idea for a movie. It's a pretty good contained, and we were still in sort of the post-COVID environment. I was like, I get what this is. This is a cool idea for a movie. It's a pretty good contained, and we were still in sort of the post-COVID environment. I was like, I get what this is. This is a movie that was made probably in 2022,

maybe even 2021. And it was because there were a lot of protocols and restrictions. So the studios were looking for scripts that could be made cheaply and in contained environments, like you said at the beginning. And this one takes place largely on a four seater airplane. It's about a US Marshal who needs to transport a witness in a mafia case, essentially. You can tell it's a mafia case because they're testifying against a guy named Moretti.

Moretti. So Moretti has done bad. Tofer Graces is an accountant. He's given Charles Grodin in Midnight Run, but not really. Do you think the mob still has accountants like that? Or it's like some like square pencil pushers like, I move money around for the mafia. You think they've deployed AI to do their accounting?

Just figured out like, you know, this took down Capone. Let's be a little careful. It's a fair point. In the process of this transport from, I guess, the wilderness of Alaska. Alaskan tundra. Yeah. And now I don't know where he plans. They're headed to Planned Bridge to eventually get to Seattle to testify against Moretti in

the case that the U.S. government has been building against him. As they are about to take off, the pilot gets on the plane. That pilot, of course, is portrayed by Mark Wahlberg. Is he a pilot? He is. Is he the pilot? He's not. He is, in fact, not just a hitman sent to kill this testifying witness, but he is an absolute sociopath who is there to plunder, pillage, and destroy both of these people that are on the plane with him. This is the most committed Mark Wahlberg performance in several years. I wouldn't say it's a good Mark Wahlberg performance,

but every time he talked, I was like, what is going on here? This person is a... There's some of the most vile and aggressive threats made in this movie. Which I didn't see in the original script. This has been discussed a little bit online, but this was a blacklist script.

Jared Rosenberg, I think, wrote it. And... Pretty solidly built. Yeah, and what it lacks is the constant threats of sexual violence that Mark Wahlberg's character spouts, which is just definitely like an interesting wrinkle to throw on it. Wahlberg wears at one point a toupee under a hat, which I guess is supposed to be either this hitman's act of vanity or is... He's in a disguise.

He's in a disguise, but when he's bald, it's quite obviously a bald cap. Yes. No, it's not. He shaved his head. Mark Wahlberg shaved the front and back of his head. Yes, I read this. Mark Wahlberg shaved his head and it looks like a bald cap because he has an enormous head. Yeah. But that's just his head and that's one of bald cap because he has an enormous head. Yeah. But that's just his head and that's one of the reasons why he's a movie star. And did he say why he did it or what was about the character?

Commitment to the part. Okay. What part? Um, I guess just that this guy's an absolute crazy person and there's some sort of false equivalency to bald people. Yeah, I guess so. I don't really know. Uh, a really strange movie. Yeah. A movie that I don't really know. A really strange movie.

A movie that I desperately wanted to know what was going to happen, even though I knew I would be disappointed by its conclusion. But the entire time was thinking over and over and over again about all of the silly decisions that the Michelle Dockery character is making and her unwillingness to either tase Mark Wahlberg's character to death or into submission for the entirety of them. Like the idea of being on a four-seater plane with an absolute sociopath. Who's talking. Yeah. Who's taunting you and letting him just hang there and figure out a way to escape is ridiculous. Michelle Dockery,

interesting times for her. One of my faves, Lady Mary from Downton Abbey. Fantastic in the film The Gentleman. Yes, and you know I think she's in the, she's also in a kind of a pivot point of her career. She's done a fair amount of TV. Yeah. She's done a lot of TV. She's done network TV in the US. She was just, I was just reading last night that she was in a Stephen Knight miniseries in the UK. I guess they don't even call it miniseries. It's a series, a six episode series about music in the 80s. Yes, this town.

This town, which I never saw. It has not come out over here, I've tried my best. To see it or to talk about it? To see it, yeah. Jason Manzoukas and I were just talking about this. Oh really, yeah, it looked really cool. When is this town coming? I'm like, damn dude, I don't, like,

it's about the like two-tone ska movement in Birmingham in the 80s. Yes, which sounded really exciting. So she's obviously still doing cool stuff. She's a little little Saddled with some tough script situation here, you know her American accent not always the greatest in the world There is a I said to you I think after we walked out like that had Shyamalan vibes Like the way people talked and the sort of oddness of the characters. Yeah

Yeah, she I mean for people who want to see Docker in good stuff. She's in the gentleman. That's still quality, yeah. Yeah, she, I mean, for people who want to see Dockery and good stuff, she's in The Gentlemen, she's in Godless, which is a really incredible Scott Frank series, Western. Yeah, Topher, I mean. Topher Grace. Well, let's actually, let's do this. When the film ended, there was some light applause

in the theater we were in. As the Directed by Mel Gibson card flashed. I don't know if it was in direct relation to Gibson as a filmmaker or just the satisfactory ending of the film for the theater that we were in. Yeah, I think. I mean, it's like, I guess they were just celebrating his ambassadorship to Hollywood, which President Trump recently granted him unknowingly apparently to Mel Gibson. Did. Did you know that, that he didn't know that was coming? I didn't.

Did you hear what his response to that was? I saw that he was like, daddy's home or daddy's back, and he's taking the belt to like, Here's the thing. Mel Gibson's personal history is downright disgusting. Yeah. He always had a good sense of humor, and his response to the news that he had been granted

in ambassadorship was very funny, which was, does it come with a residence? Because his house had just burned down in Malibu. That was his public statement about this. You have to laugh, yeah. Mel Gibson, probably the single weirdest directorial filmography in movie history. I'm gonna read to you now the films that he directed. Let's do this in order here.

Okay. He breaks out in 1993 with The Man Without a Face, which I saw in movie theaters. I completely forgot about the existence of this film. This is a huge premier magazine movie. Massive movie at the time. Young Nick Stahl as a young boy who comes across a badly burned man who he learns to love and teach him how to have empathy or whatever. Totally middling drama. Follows that up directly with Braveheart. One of the biggest movies of the 1990s, best picture winner, a film that very quickly got etched into the history of American movies.

Yeah. He waits a solid nine years to follow that film up with the Passion of the Christ, the most successful independent movie ever made. Um, extraordinarily violent portrayal of the death of Christ. He then a few years later makes Apocalypto, arguably his most accomplished movie, controversial movie in some ways, still a success. And then his career goes down, you know, really dark, terrible path after he gets pulled over in Malibu.

He makes a bit of a comeback as a director with Hacksaw Ridge, which is like widely acknowledged by the Academy. I think it was nominated for best picture. Andrew Garfield was nominated for best actor in that movie, a war film in 2016. And then nine years go by, nothing. And now flight risk. Well, 2016 to 2025 is an interesting time in American history. It certainly is.

You could make the case that this is a well-timed return for him. Sure. You could say it's odd that he wasn't given a chance in 2017. Apparently the resurrection of the Christ is coming. His sequel to The Passion of the Christ. Are you serious?

This is the film he's been working? Apparently, it's coming this year. Do you think he did flight risk to prove that, like, you can insure me? Like, I will... I think it's a good theory. I think it's a good theory. I believe the resurrection of the Christ, he is funding. So... Because it's worth mentioning that while he has been in, let's just say, director jail, whether that's true or not. He has been making four to five straight to VOD B movies a year. Bandit, Hot Seat, Confidential Informant, Desperation

Road, Boneyard. Now he has made one very good film, which is Drag to Cross Concrete. I will say he and Vince Vaughn are amazing in that. That was 2018. But for the most part, has been in the wilderness for the last decade. I don't, I think with the exception of Father Stu, which is when he first collaborated with Mark Wahlberg a few years ago, I don't think he's made a studio movie,

because Drag to Cross Concrete is not a studio movie. Not since The Expendables 3. I don't think he's made a studio movie, because Direct Across Concrete is not a studio movie. Not since The Expendables 3. Oh no, I'm wrong. It's actually Daddy's Home 2 when he and Mark Wahlberg connected, which I know is your favorite film of 2017, where he played his dad. Have you seen this? I have not seen either Daddy's Home.

Daddy's Home 2 stars Will Ferrell and John Lithgow as father and son and Mark Walberg and Mel Gibson as father and son. So it's just meet the parents. I don't know, I haven't seen it. Okay. Is Flight Risk the worst movie ever directed by an Academy Award winner?

It's gotta be up there. That's a really great question. How in deep do you want to get into this question? I'll just call up best directors. Should we revisit the early works of John Ford and just see how those 1920s silence stack up to flight risk? It's gotta be way up there. I mean, it's impossible to tell just based on like, looking at the names,

cause I don't have your filmography's in front of me. Haggis has made some shit, right? Has Paul Haggis never made- I think Crash is his worst movie. Like In the Valley of Ella is not a bad movie. Anyway, maybe some fodder for the listeners at home to think about. Flight Risk, I wouldn't recommend it,

and yet, tremendously watchable. This is the power of dumpuary. This movie's doing fairly well at the box office. Yeah. And that's the thing, is that this is exactly, it's a real best of times worst of times part of the year, where all of the big films from the previous year are being endlessly circulated and celebrated. But deep down secretly, that little demon inside of you just wants to watch Wolfman and Flight Risk. What about Presence? How do you think that figures into the equation?

Because it is a genre movie. It is from a legitimately talented best director winner. Two movies from best director winners this month. And Steven Soderbergh, who's the guest on this episode of the show, along with you and Yasi. It's written by David Kep. This is the second of three collaborations between Steven Soderbergh and David Kep, who is, I think you could say very much in the conversation for most successful

screenwriter of the last 35 years. Yes. And then written many, many, many hit films over the years. Um, Lucy Lu, Chris Sullivan, Kelly Onni Lang are the stars of the movie. It's a movie about- Julia Fox is also in it as a real estate agent. How'd you feel about her performance? I thought she was born to do it.

She was very funny. A family becomes convinced they are not alone after moving into their new home in the suburbs and we very quickly learn that this is a perspectival movie seen through the eyes of a ghost. And since Steven Soderbergh is a camera operator on all of his movies, he is literally the ghost moving through this house. The movie is set almost entirely inside of this house, just like all of these other films we're talking about

here today, which are very intimate. What'd you think of? Awesome. Awesome movie. Incredible movie. Really actually quite moving at the end. Not unlike, like No Sudden Move, which is one of my favorite movies of the decade that sort of were directed during the great max straight to

streaming run in 2020. Um, I feel like this really lingers after it's gone and you start thinking about the distancing techniques that he uses formally. So the idea that there's not a lot of traditional coverage of what would have been family dinners, family arguments, family moments of intimacy. Like you don't get like close up medium. Nothing over the shoulder. It's all like this wandering eye, which you know, as a ghost, because of like the

sort of, um, set up to the film, like because of like the sort of set up to the film, like because of like the promotional materials and the ideas. But it really started making me about like self-surveillance and about the idea of like how much intimacy we have with each other without really knowing each other because you like know where people are and know what they're doing and like the son who turns out to be something of a bully is sharing with his mom the photos he's taken of this victimized girl and laughing about it.

And it's just such a thought provoking piece over the course of what, 82 minutes or something like that. And on top of it all, it's like a rock solid screenplay that has like really intriguing elements of like what's Lucy Lou's character deal and Chris Solomon's a fan does a fantastic job as like dad of the year. And I don't know. I just love this movie. Yeah, it's really, really good. And I think the screenplay is pretty smart. So Soderbergh told me that it was his idea and he brought it to Cap and kept fleshed out the story of

the family. Was he like, I want to do a ghost story from the perspective of ghosts? Yes. And it was like, all in one house, this house is, you know, he seemed to have like really the bones of the story clearly. But I think they make a good choice by signaling a lot of things about why families are the way that they are without coming out and saying them.

For example, in the story, Lucy Liu's character has clearly, whether she's committed a crime or there's some sort of like financial fraudulence in play, we never really get the details of it. That's actually not the point. The point is that there was all of this subterranean activity, even within families, even within the deepest relationships and the only people who would know about them are the people who were in the house. And even then, what you keep from your kids, what you keep from your spouse, we saw there's that one sequence where Chris Sullivan's character goes outside

to have a phone conversation on the balcony, which is like riveting. Yeah. Even though you have no idea what he's talking about. Yeah, he's calling like a lawyer friend to be like hypothetically if X, Y, or Z was happening. There's so many scenes that essentially build this statement that if this is a horror movie, the horror movie is being a family. Yes. The horror is you're in this house trapped with these people and how much can you actually ever really know another person? Right.

So the son who's supposed to be a star athlete seems to be something of a sadist. The daughter who while is like in recovery from a friend of hers losing her life to a drug overdose, also is still using. The mom who is like this alpha-driven lawyer has like borderline inappropriate affection for her son. And then the father is just bouncing around trying to make sense of it all and basically living a life of utter loneliness. And it's like a pretty staggering portrait of a family made all the more so because of the brevity of the film

and also the visual language that it's speaking in, because you're not getting the traditional, oh, this is this guy's standalone monologue scene that's on his face, and this is his award reel. It's just, it just makes you think so much about film language and it makes you think a lot about family and death. Yeah, it's very sophisticated and very simple at the same time, which has become really Soderbergh's trademark

over the last 10 years in particular. And I asked him about this and I couldn't tell when I asked him about it whether or not he had seen these movies, but it made me think a lot about Nickel Boys and Here, which are also movies very much about perspective that are shot in confined circumstances for the most part. And, you know, Nickel Boys specifically is also a first-person movie.

These are not the first two first-person movies ever made, but they're both really audacious and upend our expectations of a traditional narrative movie. It's not your, you know, usual, like, whodunit, the way that, like, the lady in the lake is. And this, this is like, to me, this is kind of charting a path for what movies for adults can be, which is that, like, this movie was made very modestly. You know, like he shoots and edits these films.

As he goes, yeah. He did it clearly in a matter, in less than a month. Um, they need a good script and a solid cast and you need to just be able to execute. He talked about the shoes he had to wear to walk through the house while wearing it. You know, while shooting the movie. You know, there were very specific choices that were made

that you'd really have to think hard about, but it's a movie that I think does reward thinking hard about it. The actual mystery of the movie, I think, is fine. It serves its purpose. If you're going in expecting jump scares and a deathly presence with a ghost story, it's not quite that kind of story.

So you should adjust your expectations. No, but it does have a pretty cool twist. It does, it does. Anyhow, really good. Yeah, I was gonna ask you, I mean, I'm sure you discussed this with him to some extent, but where your head is at on this period of Soderbergh,

this I think he'd had his straight to streaming era of like the laundromat and high flying bird, high flying bird or high flying bird, laundromat, no sudden move. Yeah. The Meryl Streep film, which is escaping me. People will talk. People will talk. Let them all talk. Let them all talk. Let them all talk.

And then Kimmy. And Kimmy was his first movie with David Kapp. And I think the question, I think the new conversation starts with Black Bag. Black Bag is coming out in less than two months. It's a spy thriller starring two huge movie stars in Michael Fassbender and Cate Blanchett. Also written by Kapp and and it focuses putting it out.

This is his first theatrical release in since, is it Logan Lucky? I mean, is that possible? You might be right. Um, that's a long time. Yeah. You know, that's, that's almost 10 years that he hasn't been in movie theaters. So I'm curious to see if that begins a new stretch. Yeah.

Well, also, I haven't seen it. I can't wait to see if he, knowing it's going into theaters and knowing it's getting a wide theatrical release, like, comes back to the middle formally a little bit. I mean, we could use him in terms of those kinds of movies right now. But I don't know if that interests him. And maybe he's just like, actually, I'm out here

and I'm like creating a new kind of visual language to make narrative films here. Not a new one, but one that I'm teaching people to like, these odd lens choices and you know, like these kind of like doing away with certain aspects of coverage and the crutches you think you need to get through a scene. Like, I don't have them. I'm not sure. I mean, the thing that we can say is that since he came out of his retirement,

I guess Unsaint was his last theatrical release, by the way, which was in 2018. So since he came back with Logan Lucky in 2017, he's made one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten features in seven and a half years. He's also made Mosaic and Full Circle and Command Z. So three TV series and these films. So I guess Magic Mike's Last Dance was a theatrical release, so I'm misspeaking here, but it was commissioned to be a streaming only movie that they decided to put into movie theaters. I don't know, it's a fascinating stretch,

but it never felt like he was really in the zeitgeist with any of these movies. And I think that's maybe the thing he doesn't care about as much. Yeah, it's also been cool to think about how we're gonna look back on this era of movies in general because I feel like I banged the drum for a few of these films pretty hard, but none of them have the cult classic vibe that Haywire does.

And I don't know why that is. I don't know why it is that a film that was released straight to max or a movie that's Let's just say buried somewhere in the Netflix library. That was really provocative like the laundromat or beautiful Like I mean, you know why it's because most people don't know these movies exist because they went straight to stream but wouldn't Conversely like they're just at people's fingertips Like if you have if you know you have the service that shows White Lotus and the service that has Stranger Things like I know you know I feel very strongly about this yeah you got to put the movies in movie theaters to make

them real movies I did ask Soderbergh about that I think if a movie like Kimmy had gotten a month in movie theaters and gotten commercials during the NFL playoffs there would just be a different idea of it in people's heads yeah and it would be more likely to achieve that cult status that you're talking about now it doesn't mean that all them do Magic Mike's Last Dance did get in. I think people were kind of like, this doesn't feel totally fleshed out. It's okay. Yeah. It seems like you guys wanted to do these three dance sequences

and then built a movie. Exactly. But Kimmy, No Sudden Move, Let Them All Talk, High Flying Bird, Laundromat. These are all good movies. They're all interesting. They're all dynamic. They're all different. They're not the same. And yet, they don't have this big weight. It doesn't feel like Presence is necessarily gonna have this big weight either,

but it's very much worth people's time. So, you know, Soderbergh, he's in his 60s. He's still as interesting as a filmmaker as he's ever been. Yeah. Any other thoughts? No, let's get to your conversation with him. Thanks, Chris. To be continued, Sean.

Let's go to my conversation now with Steven Soderbergh. To be continued, Sean. Let's go to my conversation now with Stephen Soderberg. Stephen Soderberg is here back on the show after a few years. Stephen, Presence is your 35th feature. I'm not sure if this has been announced to you or if you're even aware of that. Yeah, 35, how do you feel about that? I'd have to go back and see how that's being calculated. Okay.

Is Che one movie or two? I think I counted it as two. Okay, that's good. Did you put behind the candelabra on there? I did. Okay. Can I tell you some famous filmmakers 35th films? Please. There's not a lot of examples here. Bergman's I believe was Cries and

Whispers. Hitchcock's was Notorious. John Huston's was Escape to Victory. Jean-Luc Godard's was King Lear. What do you make of 35? Not a lot of people get 35, it's a huge accomplishment. Well, you know, I'm in the volume business, so it works for me. But I think one of the reasons that I've been able to work at that rate is the internal philosophical debate that a lot of young filmmakers have to engage in about whether they are writer-directors or whether they are directors. And I decided that I was not a writer-director, that I had written, but that I was not a writer. And when I realized that and accepted that, everything got better.

The work got better, my life got better. And so if that wasn't the case, Bergman being the exception, but he's a freak, you know, nobody's well is that deep. Like you can't come up with something good every nine months. So I just decided I wanna work with writers. And you know, that's why I can move quickly

from one thing to the next. It's an elegant segue to my next question, which is that this new film, Presence, is the second of three David Capp scripts that you're adapting into a feature. You both worked in Hollywood for decades, but you had not worked together, right, up until Kimmy? Yeah, we knew each other. We've known each other since 1989.

David's movie, Apartmentartment Zero was at Sundance the same year as Sex Lies. So we've known each other a long time and I knew who he was before that. He already had a very strong reputation as a talented young writer and I'd read scripts of his before Sundance. So we became friendly after that, almost worked together in the mid 90s on a ghost movie, strangely, that we abandoned because we couldn't figure out the third act and stayed friends. And then a few years ago he was he was living in London and I was visiting London and we had a drink and he said, hey, I've got this idea about a woman who's a voice analyst for one of these companies and here's something that she thinks is suspicious.

And I said, please write that. And that kind of got us, that kind of got us going, you know, and it's a risk when you work with someone that you've been friends with for a long time. I've seen relationships not survive a movie. But we managed to sail through the first one. And so I pitched him a second one, Presence. And when that was finishing up, he said, I just finished this other script, what do you think? And I said, I want to do that too. I'm very anxious about the fact that I'm going to have two movies in the marketplace within six weeks of each other, both written by David. And even though they're radically different films,

I'm concerned that for the niche audience members that are aware of my presence as a filmmaker, one a year they can handle, but like two and six weeks is just really pushing it. I haven't seen Black Bag. I'm really looking forward to it. I do suspect that there's a theme of surveillance in all three of these movies. Is that fair? Well, in the case of presence, there is certainly eavesdropping and you are certainly a voyeur. The difference I think is that is the intention behind that point of view. And in the case of presence,

it's clear very early on, it's not threatening and it has no intention to harm anybody. And so you sort of take it on, your concern about your complicity is altered a little bit because it's clear this thing is vulnerable and this thing is kind of afraid also. And so I hoped it would not make you feel as uncomfortable

as you might if you felt like this had bad intentions. When you say you pitched it to David, did you pitch him this concept of this kind of perspectival ghost, or was that his construction? Where did that come from? I gave him a handful of pages to read that basically just set up the idea and described how the point of view would work. And that was it.

I mean, I said, this thing is in the house, we are the thing, and it starts out vacant, a family moves in, and the family is really fucked up. And that was it, literally. And he built out all of it. I didn't know who it was. When I got to the end of the first draft that David wrote, I was surprised. So when you're thinking of a concept like that, are you mapping in your mind

already specifically how you're going to technically execute on that concept when you come up with it? Or are you waiting until you get to the script to say, OK, here are the challenges and here's how I'm going to physically, you know, realize this this script? It's rare for me to know exactly how I want to shoot it in its in its, you know, larval stage. But in this case, there was only one way to shoot it. So that was kind of hardwired into the idea itself. And I liked that it was, it's a real movie idea.

This doesn't work in any other format, even television. Like it can't be a play, it doesn't work as a book. Like it's a real movie idea and those are rare. It's a real movie idea and those are rare. But normally, if I've responded to a piece of material and I just thought I wanna do this, there's then a process of how do I approach, what director do I need to be to execute this in an optimal way?

What are the rules? What are the rules? What's the toolkit? I'll start watching things that are in the same space to look for ideas about what I wanna do or what I don't wanna do. But this was rare. Like it can only be this. I'd love to hear more

about the actual physical making of it. Are you, what kind of camera are you using? Is it, is this the iPhone with lenses? Are you holding the camera and moving through the space as you're making it? It's a Sony A7, which is, which looks, which has the sort of form factor of a still camera. It just looks like a still camera,

but it's got a big sensor and it's the same sensor that they use in their high-end movie cameras. It is attached to a Ronin stabilization device, which looks like a U basically, with the camera sitting in the middle of it and I'm walking around with this and my little like ninja slippers that have a rubber grip on the bottom which was weird and I had a question about what shoes you wore while you were making it I was genuinely curious yeah make noise yeah I had to be as quiet as I can. And I really did need grip, you know,

because I'm going up and down these stairs a lot. And so it turned out to be, you know, the perfect tool for the job. It looks stunning. I just came back from checking a print at the Dolby Theater here in New York. And it's just, I just can't believe how good the image looks generated by this camera.

And so, you know, for me, this emergent developing technology is, I mean, I just don't know how I would execute the film without this specific gear. Like I don't, anything any bigger than that, I can't get back into the closet or I'm gonna fall down the stairs. And I wanted it to have a certain visual quality.

I did not want it to look like something that was shot inexpensively. I wanted it to have a very velvety kind of feeling. So it's just, it's, it's, I feel so lucky. I've seen this gamut, you know, of going from only film to this. Like it's incredible. It made me think a lot more

about the physical act of filmmaking, knowing that someone was holding something to execute making it. But also it made me think a lot about how you, the sort of like blocking and choreography inside of one space like this that you have to do. Was it meaningfully different from how you would do it on another feature because of the way you need to see the frame? Oh yeah, I mean I'm usually operating the camera so I'm used to having a somewhat intimate relationship with the cast, but this was next level. And, you know, all of the busted takes,

all of the takes that are NG, as they're written on the script notes, were because of me, because I made a mistake. And so that was new, is feeling that sort of level of performance anxiety. But it was also really pleasurable, you know, because it was it was it was a real dance. It was choreography. And that's kind of fun to figure out. I wish normally I come out the other end of making something and feel like I picked up

a couple of new things that I can bring to solves that I can bring to the next project. I mean, that's that's you're trying to learn. You're always trying to learn. As of right now, I'm not sure what I can take from presence to use going forward, because it was so specific in its demands and its requirements, and they don't really fit most things. And so I don't know, maybe two years from now, I'll be trying to solve a problem and I'll go, oh, I can steal from what I learned on Presence. But right now I feel like it's kind of a one-off.

I thought of two other 2024 movies while watching Presence. I don't know if you've seen either of these movies, but there's there's Rimmel Ross's Nickel Boys and there's Robert Zemeckis's Here and they're both, they're different executions from your film, but they have some things in common as well. And like, other than Lady and the Lake, I couldn't think of another movie that used a similar strategy. There was a studio movie basically in the last hundred years.

I'm sure there were some that you looked at, but it's interesting to me that like, it does feel like form, even in mainstream movies, is kind of changing pretty dramatically right now and the way that the camera moves and what the audience sees and how they see it. Like there's still somewhere else to go here. And your movie really revealed that to me. Like, what do you think accounts for that and these, some of these

changes in the last couple of years? I'm not sure. and these some of these changes in the last couple of years? I'm not sure. And I'm also not sure that there isn't a sort of a line or a tipping point in terms of film grammar beyond which you start to lose people. You know what I mean? Like you take, let's just talk pure staging.

Like there's nobody on the planet who has the pure staging ability of Steven Spielberg. If you made it any more complex, it would become incoherent. He is right up against, you know, how far you can go in terms of visual complexity and still have people understand where they are and what they're looking at. So I do think there's a sort of narrative equivalent of that, I'm just, that's a purely visual context, but I'm wondering in terms of story, form and all that,

if there isn't, it's sort of like language, it's like written language. There've been people who've experimented with it, but basically you've gotta, for the most part, put sentences together that people can understand. You know what I mean? And I do think it's sort of similar with film. Now, that being said, I think it's absolutely mandatory that we keep pushing

at that line because I don't think, I do think there's always a little bit of wiggle room and a little bit of a workaround. And so I hope everybody will, I hope filmmakers will still I hope everybody will, I hope filmmakers will still continue to push like, well, what's possible? You know, the line is whether the audience taps out or whether they lean in. You know, that's really what it comes down to. And the good news is, you know,

we have a few markers to judge, you know, where people are tapping out and when they're leaning in. Part of it is economic, is box office, and part of it is cultural, you know, how people write about films and what the people who write about films think. You know, so I like thinking about that and trying to place myself somewhere within it.

You know, the Limey, I'll never make anything I think as purely abstract as the Limey. And while I'm happy that people that have seen it seemed to like that film, nobody saw that film. Like, it was, it's not a commercial movie. It's just not. Yeah. It's interesting that you say that though, because you are able to maintain like genre elements often, or at least like narrative frameworks within all of these experiments

that you do over the years. And I think maybe people who are film fans are more willing to go on journeys with someone like you or someone whose name they know and say, well, at least I'll be willing to see something different. Like, do you feel like you are like actively leveraging that at this stage of your career? Well, I mean, not consciously.

That's not something I would think about. But I'm very, it may shock some people when they look at the list of things that I've made to hear me say, I'm very, very conscious of the audience. And I think about them a lot. And, and you talk to anybody that I work with, you know, if we're trying to make sure that we're doing the best version of something, I will often invoke the audience and say, I don't think the audience is going to understand X unless we make that more clear. Or I think we're going to lose the audience when that character does why.

And we need to, or how do we feel about that? You know, at the same time, I can't be completely driven by what will give them pleasure, meaning if I see the thing a certain way and I think it has to be that way, but it may mean sacrificing a certain section of the audience, I will sacrifice that section of the audience to make it the way I think it should be. You just have to be smart about the scale of the thing.

When I think about Solaris, which I don't feel for me creatively is entirely successful, one of the things that frustrates me about it is we should have made it for really cheap It wasn't hugely expensive it was like mid-range Budget, but I look back on it and go I should have made you know, it shouldn't have cost 40 it should have cost 9, you know, it would have been better for the movie and and And people would have I think been more able to sort of take it on. Part of, you know, because it looked and felt like a big studio movie, but what it was doing in a plot character atmosphere sense was not at all. And so they were kind of confused. And I so, you know, I try to be smart about that because if you miss too many times in a row, you know, it starts to get difficult.

I wanna ask you about that, but then one other thing kind of more formally in the movie that I thought was very interesting that I want to hear you talk about is the editing style, which is not typical, that you don't have your typical dissolves or match cuts or things that you see filmmakers deploy to kind of get the narrative momentum of the story going.

It has this kind of abrupt style cutting from sequence to sequence. Why did you make that choice? It seemed like the easiest and simplest way to indicate the passage of time. And if you were to go back and analyze the length of the black gaps between scenes, they're calculated very specifically to give you a sense

of how long it's been since the last scene. Some of them are very, very fast, which means we're talking a couple of hours. And Some of them are very, very fast, which means we're talking a couple of hours. And some of them are long, which means weeks. And so it was a sort of problem solve where I felt, yeah, what are the transitions between scenes? Like, I gotta figure that out. And then once I decided, okay, I'm gonna to cut to black, I thought, oh, great.

That's an opportunity to actually help the audience understand the grammar of the filmmaking and the storytelling here. They will at a certain point, whether they can articulate it or not, they will begin to understand that the length of the black has meaning, and it will help orient them., you know, those kinds of things are fun to think about. Yeah, it was really interesting. Presence is getting a theatrical release and you've just come out of this six year period where you're primarily making work for streaming services. Magic Mike's Last Dance did play in theaters, but I believe was not originally

intended to. Correct. did play in theaters, but I believe was not originally intended to. Right. What did you learn about how those films and series were received in the wider world by going to streaming the way that they did? Oh, well, I didn't, but I don't read anything anyway. So my only way, my only, my only method for judging how things are going is the degree to which people say yes or no to me. That's the only way I can tell how it's going. And so I just don't read stuff. I think it's probably not good for you. The year of traffic and Aaron Brockovich was was so off the chart that I decided this would be a really good time to just stop reading anything that has

your name in it, because it's only going to get worse. And that's I've stuck to that. And it's it's working for me. That is interesting. Well, let me ask you this, even though you haven't read this, there's an accepted wisdom that films that get theatrical release have a stronger chance to kind of imprint in the culture. Because there's maybe a marketing budget, there's the feeling amongst audiences that the movie is, quote unquote, more real,

that it is not a streaming movie that can then disappear in some way. Does that make sense to you? Do you buy into that? That makes sense to me. I think what I did, because it's sort of related to something that I've learned through experimentation. In this case, the release of Logan Lucky, in which we spent all of our money on everything except buying TV ads. all of our money on everything except buying TV ads. Turns out, if people don't see an ad for your movie on TV, as opposed to like on a social media platform, they don't think it's a real movie.

And I think this is sort of that thing. There's a kind of legacy, you know, street cred that comes with putting a movie out in theaters. I mean, we know empirically for a fact that a movie that has had a theatrical life when it shows up on a platform draws more eyeballs. So what that says possibly is that we value that,

we place a value on that experience that we may not be consciously aware of. I happen to think it's really good for us to be in a theater together, just watching one thing at a time, that I think it's just good for you. I think it's a good like brain reset to look at what stare to stare at one thing for a couple of hours with 300 other people. I think that's I think it's good for you. But there must be some value, whether it can be

quantified or not, or this wouldn't be true, that people don't perceive movies as being somewhat, having some weight that's different than things that don't go out theatrically, and the fact that they draw these eyeballs. So, you know, the good news is, lately, in the last year or two, in the indie space, but also to some extent across the board, young people are going to the movies. That is very exciting. Here in Los Angeles, it's kind of amazing what's happening with young people, but that's a whole other topic.

Thinking of the movies you've made in recent years, I love the little callback to the Meryl Streep character's novel that's in presence. That is a great little bit that I didn't realize until I watched it a second time. But it did have me thinking about Let Them All Talk and High Flying Bird, Laundromat, Kimmy, No Sudden Move, all these movies you've made that I'm the kind of guy who likes to like have all the filmmakers movies on a shelf somewhere, you know, so that I can feel like I've got the complete filmography. And even the last time we talked,

I think we were talking about how like the recut Kafka and a new version of Schizopolis and all like the potential for all of these things to be out in the world. And I look at the Soderbergh shelf, and it's incomplete right now. And I'm like, wondering, do you think about that? Do you care about that? Yeah, I mean, it's, well, I think about it in the sense

that I have a shelf too, and I hope it won't make me seem too self-oriented to admit that I have one copy of the films that I've made on a shelf with the other films. And it is, you know, we're filling the gap with the box set, which is coming, but there's the series of films for which there are no physical copies,

and it is weird. Like it is weird. I can't really justify, you know, calling Warner and saying, I personally would feel so much better if you guys would put these out on Blu-ray. But, you know, that's, that's, I will argue, I can argue the other side, which is conversely, argue the other side, which is conversely, most of the disks on those shelves are things that either are still impossible to find on streaming or don't exist in that world in the optimal format that I've acknowledged now that almost everything is available

and in pretty high quality and that I died when I, you know, I went through and did a Swedish death clean on of my discs because I'm like, if I wanna see that movie, I'm gonna order it up. Interesting, Okay. My colleague Amanda is a huge fan of your culture diaries. We've talked about them before, but she had a very specific question, which was, you have a real knack or affinity for female authors and seemingly based on those diaries and especially sort of literary fiction written by women.

And she's just wondering, like, where do you get your recommendations? How do you decide what fiction to read? It's very serendipitous. Talk to friends, read reviews. Sometimes a good artwork can do the trick. Reputation. So there's no real logic to it. But I find I find novels in particular to be really, really immersive in a way that's

unique. I don't know they feed they I get something from them that I don't know, they feed, I get something from them that I don't get from any other, you know, form, creative form. So I don't know why I hadn't really thought about the, I hadn't genderized my list. She did, not me, just in the record. Yeah, the way Amanda just did.

But I'm really just going, I'm just sort of floating in a direction, but without any real intention. You know, I'm sure you've been asked about this today, so I apologize, but you know, David Lynch's passing crosses my mind. I think, did you know him at any point in your life? I met him, yeah, I spent an afternoon with him like 20 plus years ago. He was really fun. It's a real loss. But what a great body of work he left behind for us to continue to enjoy. to continue to enjoy, you know, that's,

it's impossible to duplicate and he was impossible to imitate. And so, yeah, he's one of those, he's one of those people. That's why these shelves matter. This is what I'm saying, Stephen, you know? I've got the shelf at home and now I can go home and revisit the work tonight. There you go. We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers

what's the last great thing they've seen. You watch things all the time. Have you seen anything great lately? Wow. I tell you, I really liked September 5th. Please tell me what you liked about it. I had no notes. I just thought it was, it knew exactly what it was and it knew exactly what it was doing.

And so when I say I have no notes, I mean, wow, he didn't make a single mistake from my point of view. And, and I found it fascinating and I thought it was just really smartly executed. So, and I feel like that it's hasn't gotten as much sort of chatter as, as some other movies. It's a great recommendation. Steven Soderbergh. Thanks as always. A pleasure and to be continued, I hope. Hopefully. Thank you sir. See you soon.

Thanks to Stephen Soderbergh, thanks to CR, thank you to Amanda and thank you to Yassi, thanks to Jack Sanders and our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode later this week. Amanda and I are gonna dig into the Brutalist, and we're gonna rank some best picture nominees with Joanna Robinson. Brutalist, yay, nay? Yay. Yay.

Do you feel like, has there been a massive change in best picture ranking since the last time you did it? I don't wanna give away my hand. I mean, scandals anew bursting every day. So probably by the time we record on Thursday, who knows? What will OPPO Research have for us by then? Yeah, how will, how will Emilia Perez be a, failed once more, you know, we'll see.

Will you have seen the film by next Thursday? The second half of the film? Yeah. Maybe. Okay. Am I on that pod? Do I have to? No.

Okay. And frankly, I don't care. See you next time.