The Big Picture - The 23 Most Anticipated Movies of 2023

Episode Date: January 3, 2023

Happy New Year! Amanda and Sean are gearing up for 2023 at the movies. On this episode, they talk about what happened at the box office over the holidays (1:00) and pick their most eagerly awaited films of the year to come (11:00). Then, Sean is joined by Nikyatu Jusu to discuss her film, ‘Nanny’ (1:20:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Nikyatu Jusu Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There it is. I'm Charles Holmes with The Ringer Music Show. And I'm Cole Kushner from Dissect. And Charles and I are teaming up to create Last Song Standing,

a new show where we determine an artist's single best song by debating our way through their entire catalog. And for our first season, we're covering Kendrick Lamar. We're talking Good Kid to Pimple Butterfly,

Dan, Mr. Morale, the mixtapes, the Lucys, and the features. Listen to Last Song Standing on the Dissect podcast feed only on Spotify. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings.

Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. 2023. Later in this episode, I have a conversation with Nikyatu Njusu, the writer-director behind Nanny, the film that won the jury prize at last year's Sundance Film Festival, and is now available on Amazon Prime. It's definitely worth checking out, and I hope you'll stick around for our conversation. But first, hey, Happy New Year. Amanda, how are you? I'm great. I'm so glad to see you, Sean. It's nice to see you as well. It is 2023. Here we are. We have not podcasted in more than two weeks, nearly three weeks. Is that correct? I think so. Is it not? I don't know. No, two weeks. Yeah, I was going to say, but it was two weeks without childcare. So here we are. Hey, look at us. Childcare's back. We're

back in the studio. We're back talking about movies. We haven't had a chance to talk on microphone about what's been happening in the world of movies since the break and let's here's what's been happening the way of water has been happening in a big

big big big way big Jim big Jim actually he did the thing that he promised

he would do the box office performance of his movie has been once again consistent and extraordinary in its third weekend of release the box office returns actually went up has been, once again, consistent and extraordinary. Yeah.

In its third weekend of release, the box office returns actually went up. Went up. Yeah. This used to happen when E.T. came out in 1982. This did not happen in 2022. It's just remarkable. I'll give you some data points.

The film rose to $66. million dollars over this recent holiday weekend up 6% from its Christmas weekend its total gross now sits after 17 days at 1.4 billion dollars 1 billion dollars

in worldwide gross this film also doing gangbusters in China where very few American films are released and just some context

your beloved Top Gun Maverick hung around in the domestic box office top 10 for 21 weeks. It grossed an amazing $1.4 billion worldwide. It seems like in about a week's time, Avatar The Way of Water is going to outgross Top Gun Maverick. How are you feeling about that?

Like I knew that that was going to happen. Like, of course, that's great. This is great. You know, i know people who went to see avatar they all had a great time it's a it's a movie experience there are beautiful whales and we learn about family and it's 85 hours long everyone got what they wanted from avatar the way of water they got mostly what they paid for though the same people who anecdotally told me they went to see it were also like yo going, going to the movies is expensive, which, yes, it is.

It's true. And especially Avatar the Way of Water. This is not surprising and in line with our, your, and my predictions, which is great. It's great. Congratulations to Big Jim, to Disney, to movie theater chains. If we think that this augurs anything about the rest of the business, then we're being very stupid. So I think it's a singular event that's great. And if you spend 13 years making your beautiful undersea whale with superior technology,

the people will come. I'd like to go back to a talking point we had during our conversation about the film. Should all films require 13 years of technological advancement and production? I don't think that that would be good for your goals and hopes for the movie industry or your life in general. It'd be tough for this podcast. I appreciate it when people spend extra time on their work. OK. As I said during that podcast, you know, I don't want something half-baked.

So good for him. That said, just the numbers don't really work. So that's a good point. It would take about 13 years for us to get back on schedule. Yeah. So I don't want to do that. But it is a testimony to waiting until the time is right. It'll be curious.

I'll be curious to see how long this prolonged stretch of performance goes. Obviously, with Titanic and the first Avatar film, those films performed months after release. There's not a whole lot on the horizon, as we'll talk about here on this podcast. It's coming in 2023. It's going to get in its way. A couple of, you know, a horror movie here, there in January, a couple of semi-big releases in February but for the most part it has two months run of the board and so which wouldn't you assume is an intentional like not a coincidence people just cleared out the other studios fled for obvious reasons because he does it so now it's sort of like is it a self-fulfilling prophecy or not is it is it

thriving because there's so few films I mean this was the fewest number of films in a quote-unquote normal year to be released over the Christmas and New Year's holiday that I can remember in my life. I mean, with the exception of Babylon and the Puss in Boots sequel, there just was not a whole lot coming out in the world. Maybe that's a segue. Did you watch the Puss in Boots sequel? I did. In fact, I thought it was perfectly fine. And there's already a sort of vocal contingent who was mad about the score I gave the film on Letterboxd which was two and a half stars. It is a formally daring animated film but I did not think

it was a very good script personally. That is a great segue on to our next segment which is the Babylon Hive and or y'all gotta log off all of you and I'm looking straight at you Sean Fennessey and Bobby you're not on the screen right now but i'm pointing in your direction bobby stay logged on we do not log off we have talked about this if you are here for babylon hives stay in line week between christmas and new years we do not post okay can i share a personal anecdote about sean fennessey posting you and i and our families spent New Year's together. We did. I and your wife and my husband took the children on a walk.

They were in their strollers. I got to be honest, they weren't in the best moods. Camp counselor Amanda logged on. I was going for high fives. Both children left me hanging multiple times. Broke out the singing, my own little ministry of silly walks, doing everything that I could to entertain both my child and your child for over an hour. Alice was hard blanking. She looked like Steven Seagal. Actually, she liked the silly walks more than Knox did, which credit to Alice.

Alice and I had a very special New Year's. Anyway, I get back to the house after just leaving it all on the floor, right? And Sean's just been fucking tweeting about Babylon from the hot tub. Like, I don't know what else to say. Can I tell you what I did in the hot tub? This is what I did in the hot tub. First of all, it was my only moment alone

the entire, entire vacation, which was a lovely time that I had with you guys. But you know, Alice, she presents some challenges from time to time. Very tiring experience. Got in the hot tub, fired off a she presents some challenges from time to time. Very tiring experience. Got in the hot tub, fired off a tweet about Babylon.

Shout out to Babylon. Love that film. Damien Chazelle, I was right. Thank you. I also watched a cut of a documentary that we're working on here at The Ringer and I was in all my glory. It was theoretically work, but it was the greatest work I've ever had.

And I don't own a hot tub, but I certainly would like to have one now. And I would appreciate it if you would come over every day and walk Alice for one hour so I can get it in the hot tub that I will be buying. What do you think? I just was so mad when I opened Twitter like four hours later when I didn't even have a minute to myself. And I was just like, I was caring for your child and you were shit posting with all the other idiots. And let's just say right now, I'm mad at you.

I'm mad at Bobby because Bobby was posting too. But none of the posting was good. That's just wrong. None of the posting was good. This is a place for people's free opinions. And no one's opinion is incorrect, except in this very particular case. The posting was good and Babylon is good. So I'm willing to go with you on Babylon is good okay

and I will tell you that Babylon Hive posting was better than the other posting that was going on and was sort of a reactive posting nonsense to people who don't know shit about movies just firing up the Twitter and having some bad opinions because they don't want to talk to their families. So I'll give you that. But otherwise, no, thank you. Bobby and I had a conversation over the break that I think was very helpful,

which was we did something really smart this year, which is we pre-recorded all of our holiday episodes. And so we didn't have to worry about the discourse around any movie. Here we are not talking about the discourse about Glass Onion and I'm delighted. I feel like I've gotten over a hump of a certain kind. Sure.

And I want to stay above that hump. I am not platforming it. I want to elevate it and say my opinion about Babylon is exactly as it was when I first saw the film in early December. And I sat before you and Adam Neiman and Chris Ryan and said this is one of my five favorite movies of the year. It remains that. I've since watched it a second time. It's beautiful. Did it struggle at the box office? It really did struggle of the year. It remains that. I've since watched it a second time. It's beautiful. Did it struggle at the box office?

It really did struggle at the box office quite mightily. But you know what? It's a three hour and eight minute movie. Well, so is Avatar the Way of Water. Nevertheless, it will be hailed and reclaimed many times over in the next 25 years as, if not a masterpiece, at least one of the most ambitious movies of its generation. So I'm here for it. I'm mostly pro.

Okay. I still would like to just sit in on a therapy session with Damien Chazelle and his movie therapist. I just want to know what's going on. Oh, movie therapist. This is a great segment for us. We should be the movie therapist for filmmakers after they've made their film. We'll put them on the couch.

Sure. Do you really know how therapy works? I don't know if like- It's been a long time since I've made their film. You put them on the couch. Sure. Do you really know how therapy works? I don't know. It's been a long time since I've been in therapy. It doesn't work where the person who's being therapized isn't present. You know? Well, maybe we can change the ways of modern psychological behaviors. Anyway, it's mostly good and you owe me an hour of free time.

But you make it sound like you had two kids in both arms and you were racing down the street laughing and silly walking with them. You had some help. I think your husband was there too. Yeah. Zach was pushing a stroller. Eileen was pushing a stroller and I was actually racing down the street and between them, you know, here's the thing I would do.

Like I would run between the strollers and then like stand in front of them and hold my arms out on each side, you know, kind of like you're starting like a car race, you know, like in Greece. Sure. You're like Natalie Wood in Rebel Without a Cause. Yeah. Like waiting for the high fives. And then both kids would like laugh and just be, uh, stroll by me without giving me a high five. And I just like five times that happens. That says nothing about our children and everything about you. Because I don't have that problem. They respond to my energy. I'm getting high fives left and right I'm like Michael Jordan sitting down on the bench after dropping 55 in the garden that's me okay uh you want to talk about 2023 sure are you excited about

this movie year yes now I am I was thinking on the way here this is always my favorite podcast of the year because it's just hope it is and enthusiasm. And we don't have to live through any of the bad posting or the bad movies. Yeah, same. I think it will be better than this past year. I think the studios have some regret about the way that the past year went, which is to say that they just held too much stuff. And so the box office was down 30 or so percent in 2022 in part because they released about 30% fewer films than they did in 2019. So I think we're going to get more. I think we're going to get more that is not just dumped onto streamers. There are a handful of streamer releases on our lists. There are no shots to

anybody who's trying to make an ambitious film, but I feel like the business is in real-time resetting. Some of those resets are a little gnarly. We see a lot of what's happening at certain streamers where TV shows are being canceled or being shunted off to fast programming, the sort of ad-supported programming. Some of those streaming services are introducing advertising into their programming. I think that movies, for the most part, are actually going to benefit from this,

or at least theatrical releases are going to benefit from this over a certain period of time. It feels like Sony, Warner Brothers, Disney, like is refocusing on getting movies into movie theaters.

Will it actually pay off financially? It doesn't really matter. Are the movies going to be good? I hope so. It wasn't hard for me to come up with a list this year. I got to tell you.

And in my head, I was doing your list. And I was like, wow, already I know Amanda's, at least three or four films on Amanda's list. And my list is full. So in theory, this could be a good one. It was a mostly generous thing you did. You made your list and you did actually just put a couple on my side of the document, which was really lovely i know your passions yeah you do and i want you to have what you need in fact we just brokered one

other addition to your list right before we began recording here that's true um so i i did do one selfish thing which is i grabbed 12 yeah and you have 11 because we're talking about the 23 most anticipated movies of 2023 yes yeah uh i'm, you know, just a marvel of magazine engineering here on a podcast. Here we are. So should I start? Go for it. I'm just going to put

Knock at the Cabin at the top of my list. So this is the new M. Night Shyamalan movie. I'm a huge M. Night Shyamalan fan even when he sort of disappoints us or frustrates us.

You're a fan of M. Night Shyamalan. I am. Have you watched the trailer for Knock at the Cabin? This is a classic. I saw this, I think, both at a movie theater and then during a sports game of sorts. And I was like, that looks messed up, but also I might see it. That seems fun.

Yeah, so it's based on a 2018 novel by Paul Tremblay called The Cabin at the End of the World. It stars Dave Bautista. He of Glass Onion and Guardians of the Galaxy fame. Jonathan Groff. Ben Aldridge, Nicky Amuka Bird, and Rupert Grint from the Harry Potter franchise. I don't want to say too much about it because I think the less said the better about M. Night Shyamalan movies, but it is a thriller. It's a psychological thriller as pretty much all of his movies are now. I think he has been very interesting in the last five or six years, if not always great.

I think as I look back on old, his most recent movie, I like it a lot more than I remembered. I had a great time. I enjoyed it. Yeah. So I'm psyched for this. And it's coming in one month, one month from today. So I don't know.

This is one of those things where it's like M. Night Shyamalan just putting a movie out every two to two and a half years is what movies felt like to me like 20 years ago and so I'm with it I'm into it I'm ready to have fun again so I

the timing is right let's try it and if it doesn't work that's also okay with me that's the other thing about old like I had a great time the ending was

deeply disappointing it was but also I didn't care like part of the fun was being like, no, you needed to think a little bit harder on that, you know, and yelling at the screen. That's great. Let's do it. Bring it back. Here's the positive spin on that. That's a testimony to how effective the first hour and 20 minutes of the movie was, right? That it got your expectations so high for the ending. He does that all the time. Okay. What's your number 11 creed 3 great i directed by michael b jordan

debut sylvester stallone will not be in this movie which i you know i'm sure he's working through his feelings and also possibly his legal options um it's a toss-up i ultimately i love creed i love creed i didn't really like creed 2 but I had a nice time anyway. That was a Thanksgiving movie. I'll never forget Zach's little cousin. We took him to see it. And as the lights went down, he just yelled, what happened in Creed 1? What did happen? In Creed 1? Creed triumphed. Creed triumphed. It was beautiful. Did he triumph at the end of two? I don't honestly remember.

I just remember the training scenes in, I believe, Mexico for a while. Yeah, they were pretty gnarly. Anyway, ultimately, I think you just got to honor how hard Jonathan Majors worked to be that scarily swole. You know? And so I'm just putting it there at Creed III in respect for Jonathan Majors, the work put in. I don't know whether there was any assistance

of a chemical nature. I hope he's healthy. I'm rooting for him. I look forward to this film. I look forward to it as well. It's a real kind of fingers crossed sort of thing. If we're looking at

the Rocky franchise, I like Rocky III quite a bit. Which one is that? Rocky III is... Don't tell Bella I asked. Is Mr. T and Hulk Hogan. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Rocky III is a little bit more,

is a little zanier than Rockies I and II. And Creed III doesn't look all that zany. Looks pretty serious. I don't know if Creed could necessarily sustain a kind of zany quality to it, but I don't know. But there is also the danger of it becoming too self-serious. I am slightly concerned about that.

Yeah, I am as well. We'll see. We'll have a couple more sequels on this list. Not too many sequels, but a handful of sequels. My number 11 is a movie I'm actually very, very, very fired up for. It's called The Iron Claw. It's directed by Sean Durkin, who made Martha, Marcy, Mae, Marlene, and also a movie called The Nest, which we never really talked about on this show, which played Sundance in 2020.

That was the Jude Law, Carrie Coon. Correct. Yeah. Which I was very mixed on, but very admiring of, if that makes sense. Beautiful interiors. Incredible production design, incredible mood and pacing. Didn't quite turn out script-wise the way I wanted it to. I'm interested in the Iron Claw for a couple of reasons, but one of those reasons is I like me some professional wrestling.

And one of the most legendary families in the history of professional wrestling is the Von Erich family and there has been incredible highs and incredible tragedy in that family and this is a pure docudrama about their family's lives and here's the cast Zac Efron is playing Kevin Von Erich the film seen through his eyes I have seen these paparazzi photos born to play a professional they are notable he uh well obviously he's ripped but also he has a kind of the manic-eyed intensity of a great professional wrestler. So I like this casting a lot. Also a notable haircut. I haven't seen that.

I almost don't want to see it. Okay, all right, sorry. It made waves. Okay, okay. Lily James, who I'm always rooting for and who sometimes lets me down. She's got it, but the part picking, I don't know. Like Pam and Tommy, what happened there? I never watched it.

That was tough. She was great. She was great. She transformed into Pamela Anderson. You know what she's up to now is she's doing ads for, quote, natural diamonds, which are, do you know about lab-grown diamonds? I'm sorry. My head hurts.

Whatever. I was just watching H I'm sorry, my head hurts. Whatever. I was just watching Hulu, minding my own business, and then Lily James is, like, romping around in a ball gown being, like, natural-grown diamonds are the only way, which is, like, basically for the diamond lobby. Okay. And I don't, I might not have taken that money if I were Lily James. Anyway. That's the title to the Uncut Gem sequel, right?

Natural-grown diamonds. It's weird. Also in this cast, Harris Dickinson, who we just saw on Triangle of Sadness, who's quite good. Maura Tierney, my girl from News Radio.

Love it. Playing the Von Erich mother figure. Holt McCallany from Mindhunter. Love it. And from various David Fincher projects,

who I also love. And Jeremy Allen White coming off of The Bear. Did you watch The Bear? Not yet. Zach watched it without me. Oh. That was good. I know. I will watch The Bear? Not yet. Zach watched it without me. Oh, that was good.

I know. I will watch it in my own time. That was good. And he was good. And all of the praise that you heard about that show was worth it. That was the rare thing where I was like, ooh, this lived up. Yeah.

Okay. So that's The Iron Claw. It's an A24 movie. I just want to give a couple of quick shouts as to A24 movies. I felt like I was a little more down on A24 than I usually am last year. I have another one on my list, but not on my list include films include alex garland's new film civil war which uh stars your girl kiki dunst that i am excited about that half of the sentence um jonathan glazer has his first movie since under the skin i can't believe this isn't on your list i maybe should i just move it into my open spot yeah okay i'll just well we'll hold that for a

second and then ty west maxine the third film in the trilogy of Mia Goth slasher movies, which I'm super fired up about. There's probably a bunch of other A24 movies. I have a couple on my list. You have some, yeah. So I feel like they're actually about to have. You know what? They might even win Best Picture with everything everyone wants. So who cares?

Oh, right. About what I'm even saying here. But for me personally, I wasn't as in love with their slate in 22 as I feel like I'm going to be in 23. All right, let's go to your number 11. It's a little film called Air Jordan. Yeah. Directed by my guy, Ben Affleck, back in the saddle, changing the way we do business in Hollywood, ensuring fair compensation for everyone. You have to give some context. Finding love late in life, pairing up with his best friend, Matt Damon, to tell an inspiring story about how a sneaker company signed an endorsement.

I love you, Ben Affleck. Welcome back. Can you explain how he's making the film business more equitable? Sure. He and Matt Damon started a new, what do we call it, production company? Sure. It's sort of like in the mold or inspired by, what's the 70s Ford Coppola, Francis Ford Coppola? American Zoetrope.

American Zoetrope and an attempt to change the nature of deals. And so below that, below the line, workers on a project also participate in or are a part of profit participation. And basically just because the economics of the way that movies are made are really screwed up and that people aren't people who deserve to get paid aren't sharing in that payment. Where do you stand on Live By Night, his last directorial film? Really bad. Yeah. Really bad. But he's been through a lot since then.

You liked the sad sports movie that he didn't direct, obviously. The Way Back. Yeah, you liked The Way Back. He's one of my favorite actors. Sure, yeah. I think he's a terrific actor. I think he has turned over a new leaf in his life, obviously. Found love, yeah. I think he's a terrific actor. I think he has turned over a new leaf in his life, obviously. Found love again.

And seems invigorated by this project. And, you know, you can tell that he enjoys, like, taking on the mogul mantle a bit. Like, he was at the Dealbook Summit, which I didn't watch all 40 minutes of but chris ryan did oh wow and with andrew rustwork and yeah just being there like we gotta change the business i don't know good for him he's excited he's energized i like more of the movies he's directed than i don't like them you know town classic gone baby gone very good i'm a fan of argo i like it too yeah no shame there. Okay. I think we're underselling Air Jordan.

I mean, Matt Damon's playing Sonny Vaccaro, the famed kind of marketing guru slash, you know, signing great athletes. Matt Damon does not look like Sonny Vaccaro. No. And he's not Italian, but that's okay. I will say, once you make a marketer the protagonist of your film. It's tricky. You cross into or your project, you cross in the evil territory. This is also my main problem with the show Emily in Paris, which I love very much and is just also everything that's wrong with the world because they're just like, she got the McDonald's deal.

I'm glad you see that um over the break paul schrader misunderstood that emily the criminal was not an emily and paris spinoff and fired the film up on netflix and with the expectation of getting some emily and paris content and he got a thriller about student debt that's a true story it's in a lot it could be in the universe actually as a spinoff they should explore those ties because it in many ways, Emily the Criminal is like the honest version of Emily in Paris. I'm sorry if that happened

to Paul Schrader. That applies to so many things in the last 50 years. I mean, Viola Davis is in this movie. I think the thing that you've identified is what kind of tone

will the movie have? Will it be kind of tongue-in-cheek or wry or satirical? Because I think it's based in part on Shoe Dog, Phil Knight, the founder of Nike's memoir, which is quite a good memoir as those things go. And it's important that they not play it straight. In my heart of hearts, I was like, shouldn't Steven Soderbergh make this movie and let these guys be the star? Now, Affleck is a very good filmmaker, we'll see i'm intrigued though there is a little bit

of rightness to argo i think that we sure there's not in live by night no yeah i i believe in him i'm excited okay also it just means he's gonna be back he's gonna be talking about movies maybe he'll do another like you know video conference with david fincher for four hours since they both have movies to promote. That was the best content of the pandemic. I'm happy to moderate that conversation. Sure. Yeah. Put me between those two men. I will be the Andrew Ross Sorkin to the Fincher-Affleck meeting of the minds. Okay. My number 10. That was your number 10, by the way. This is my number 10. How do you live? This is the new film from hayo miyazaki it's a new studio ghibli animated feature um i don't think my daughter is yet ready to go to a movie theater but this is really the one that i

want to bring her to miyazaki hasn't made a movie in a long long time it's a huge comeback for him he's in a very emotional person when it comes to the difficulties of making films and is very direct about how it's like he's tortured by his work, but he's also simultaneously one of the great filmmakers, period. I started reading his autobiography. He has a two-part autobiography. It's like two 400-page volumes. Very funny, very sincere, very wry.

I definitely never thought he would make another movie again. So I'm very intrigued by this. I'm also trying to not read anything about it. All I know about it really is that it's coming out in Japan in July, which in theory means it comes out in the United States

at the end of this year. Fingers crossed. I don't even know if it has U.S. distribution at this point. So you can watch the Studio Ghibli films on HBO Max. So maybe it's Warner Brothers. In the past,

Disney has gotten involved. I think they released Princess Mononoke and My Neighbor Totoro in America. So maybe it's Warner Brothers. In the past, Disney has gotten involved. I think they released Princess Mononoke and My Neighbor Totoro in America. So anyway, How Do You Live is the name of the movie. That's all I'm going to say. I'm very excited about it. I got to find somebody great to do the episode with because you just won't do it with me.

I was thinking about, I feel like Alice could sit through like an early morning screening where it's a little more permissive and if she's got to wander off for a while well if it's december of 2023 or in that area yeah then you know she's she's two and a half yeah but like that could work it's a long time i know even though she watched ponyo yeah that was one of the great moments she just sat on on on our bed and just watched ponyo that was fine anyway that's very cute um what's what's your number nine maestro this is pretty low for where i thought you were

anticipating it so this was on my list last year and then it was not released and then tar came out and i was like oh i see why yeah because you were too scared to go head to head and i think that was the right do you think that's what it was? You think it was too scared? No, I think it also probably wasn't done. Just not right. But I do think it was very smart to not rush it out and have it anywhere near the sphere of TAR. Maestro is, of course, the biopic of Leonard Bernstein.

And Leonard Bernstein plays a notable role in Tar, especially Act Three of Tar. I mean, you know, I guess the idea of Leonard Bernstein, not the actual person. That's right. So it's not a one-to-one, but I mean, how many big Tony movies are they making about classical music conductors? Not that many. So I guess it's good to have some distance. But will you be able to watch this without thinking about TAR throughout? Probably not. We'll see. I mean, it feels like a slightly more, I don't want to say conventional because I have no idea. I've only seen the handful of photos that have been distributed, but it's a

biopic, right? Yeah. It's not an invention of a world. And, you know, there's been a lot written about TAR. I think a lot's been a lot written about tar i think a lot of really interesting stuff written about her in the last couple of months about the interpretation of the film's intent and what that character actually is what's reality in the film i don't think we're going to have that same kind of psychological phantasmagorical kind of relationship to maestro maestro is probably going to be kind of true to the facts of the bernstein life well you know i mean true to the facts but but I think it's also a lot about his marriage, which, as I understand it, was like a rich text, if you will.

I believe that his wife is played by Carey Mulligan. So, I mean, also the photos from the set of this one that Bradley Cooper has been very earnestly releasing into the world are just wild. A lot of old man makeup. Yeah into the world are just wild. I, I, a lot of old man makeup. Yeah. I'm, I'm open to it.

I'm excited. Another filmmaker slash actor who I really like. Yeah. I think it'll be good. A friend texted me recently after rewatching Bradley Cooper's A Star is Born and was like, this is the most underrated movie of the decade. And I was like, by everyone but us.

We, we screamed it to the rafters to the point of obnoxiousness. I was like, by everyone but us. We screamed it to the rafters to the point of obnoxiousness. I think people were sick of hearing us talk about it. Well, they were wrong. I think it's great. I have no qualms about how he celebrated it and him. My number nine, and I'm going to preface it by saying,

I'm going to give it one last go at the MCU. Okay. This is how far out on the MCU I was. I didn't realize until last night that there had been a Guardians of the Galaxy 3 trailer released. Now, for me, that's like forgetting what state I live in. I would say that that is a sign of growth and progress. And priorities.

But you know what? And intentional watching. I watched that trailer, and I know you're not a Guardians fan, but I was like, I'm in. I would like to watch this movie. So what's up with Guardians' relationship to James Gunn now that he is let's talk about that momentarily because the movie that I'm I'm I'm I'm pitching here is not Guardians I'm looking forward to Guardians but I'm looking forward the most at number nine to Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania sure now one this has something that Guardians also has which is it's the third film

in the kind of you know mini franchise within the MCU from the same filmmaker. Peyton Reed made the first two Ant-Man movies, both of which I really liked, just like James Gunn made the first two Guardians movies. This is the big, big, big introduction apparently of Kang as the kind of significant big villain of this phase of the MCU storytelling played by Jonathan Majors, who we just talked about. This is a movie that has Michael Douglas and Michelle Pfeiffer alongside Paul Rudd and Evangeline Lilly. It's meant to be, I think,

a much bigger kind of scientific exploration. I think Peyton Reed is very capable of this having watched some of his work on The Mandalorian which was very, very good. I haven't really liked

an MCU movie in a long time. Probably since No Way Home and even No Way Home I was like, I felt myself being manipulated in a long time. Probably since No Way Home. And even No Way Home, I was like, I felt myself being manipulated in a fun way and I dug it. But I really had to make special exceptions for even parts of Doctor Strange 2. I haven't liked the TV shows really at all since Loki. This is the longest it's been since I've been like,

I'm interested in this sort of thing. But this movie's coming out very soon. It's out in six weeks, February 17th. So this is about an ant who's a man. Or a man who's an ant, I should say. Neither. In fact, he's not an ant.

He just shrinks down to the size of an ant. But he doesn't transfigure into an ant. No. He's still just... You've seen Ant-Man. Yeah, I have. So he's just tiny Paul Rudd? Correct.

Or gigantic. Well, that's not what the name suggests. Okay. So he becomes very small, and then he travels through time and space. Sort of. With the help of Michael Douglas. Is Michael Douglas like his father or his father-in-law? He's his father-in-law he's his father-in-law and also a

physicist yes he plays hank pym who's sort of the creator of the technology that paul rudd's character benefits from so is he willfully becoming small or is it like this is like this is let's save it for the ant-man pod i'm not invited on the ant-man pod i'm not on the spreadsheet is that true yeah i don't even know who's on the Ant-Man pod. I'm not on the spreadsheet. Is that true? Yeah. I don't even know who's on the spreadsheet. Well, if you want to be on the pod, you can be on the pod. But if you are going to spend the whole pod asking about the science of the quantum realm.

It's in the title. I'm trying to invest in the stakes of the film. Okay. I think it has a chance to be good. If it's not, if I don't like it, then it's over. Then it's over. Then we don't have to talk about the MCU anymore?

No, no, we have to because they're incredibly meaningful. But you know what? I thought about this when I thought about the Avatar and Top Gun Maverick being the number one

in two films in America and in the world this year. No MCU, yeah. No MCU, no superhero movies. Yeah. Very notable, Amanda. I'd like to, when was the last time

that was true where there were no superhero movies or Star Wars movies at the top of the box office? I should have looked that up. Yeah. Very notable, Amanda. I'd like to, when was the last time that was true where there were no superhero movies or Star Wars movies at the top of the box office? I should have looked that up. Yeah. At least 2010, 11, 12? Like a decade, I guess? And there's only three Marvel movies coming in theaters this year.

The Ant-Man, the aforementioned Guardians 3, which in theory, I don't know if it'll be the last Guardians movie, but it'll be the last James Gunn Guardians movie, at least for a while. So is he going to promote it? Definitely. While still working for... Definitely. He loves that cast. He's obsessed with those movies. He'll definitely promote it. I mean, I don't know what Warner Brothers says he can and can't do. I'm not sure since he's now running DC. And then the third movie is the Marvels, which is the sequel to the Captain Marvel movie, which I really did not like. It was the first indicator to me of like, uh-oh,

something's gone wrong here. Dakota Johnson is playing someone named Madam Web in the Marvels. That's in the Sony films. That's not in the MCU. That's not? No. She's not in the Marvels? She's in the Spider-Man universe. You know who else is in Madam Web?

Who? Sidney Sweeney. Oh, that's right. So Madam Web's its own movie? It's its own movie. Is it coming out this year? Perhaps. Okay.

First, we have to get Craven the Hunter, which is directed by J.C. Shandor, whose previous films include Margin Call and Triple Frontier. Yeah, but now he's making a Spider-Man anti-hero side story movie starring Aaron Taylor-Johnson, who we learned in Matt Bellany's newsletter last night. It's probably going to be James Bond? It's probably going to be James Bond.

Honestly, I'm fine with that. I am too. Very charming. Yeah, he's good. Wow, we're on a roller coaster here. Okay, so Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania. That's what it is. We'll see.

One last shot for the MCU. Here you go. Number eight. Amanda, what are you doing? I'm sorry. I'm still just thinking about Madam Web. I really thought she was one of the Marvels. Wouldn't it be funny if Madam Web was like a Maggie Smith movie?

I kind of thought the Marvels were like the Supremes, but like for MCU characters, that's not it. It's a family. No, no. Does that mean Captain Marvel is Diana Ross? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then, and I guess like. I'm kind of.

I mean, I guess Dakota Johnson would not sign on to be like one of the other Supremes, so I can't remember. Brie Larson, you are no Diana Ross. I apologize. That's really true. Okay. My number eight is You Hurt My Feelings. Formally known as Beth and Don. This was also on my list last year.

Directed by Nicole Holofcener. Reuniting with Julia Louis-Dreyfus. A romantic comedy of sorts. In the vein of Enough Said which is one of the best movies of the last 10 years in my opinion. With you on that.

Debuting at Sundance. Sign me up. Sundance coming up soon. I know. People have been asking us when are we going to do a Sundance preview episode. We've never done that before

but we're going to be watching Sundance movies. We're going to try our best. I've seen one. Actually, one movie that I saw that is playing Sundance that is not on my list

but would have been is Infinity Pool, the new Brandon Cronenberg movie which I'm not allowed to Sundance that is not on my list but would have been is Infinity Pool the new Brandon Cronenberg movie which I'm not allowed to share my opinion on yet nevertheless we will talk about it

Nicole Holofcener really one of the goats one of the great living filmmakers one of the great remember when she co-wrote The Last Duel with Ben Affleck

and Matt Damon yes I also enjoyed her press tour during that why didn't we nominate them for adapted screenplay people didn't like that movie they didn't screenplay? People didn't like that movie.

They didn't see it and they didn't like it. I liked it. That's on them. You Hurt My Feeling sounds good. A24, coming through again. My number eight, which might be a 2024 movie,

but I don't think so. I say might because there's some complications there, but I'm just going to say it's Ferrari. Now, Ferrari is the new feature film from Michael Mann about Enzo Ferrari starring Adam Driver as Enzo Ferrari in yet more old man Italian grooming and makeup he loves to look older and uglier than he actually is love it I can't wait so one this will be the CR turns

into a Falcon episode if this movie actually comes out this year. The complication, and you know, of course, it's yet another movie about a man who's obsessed with precision and getting the job done and kind of, you know, emotional stasis

and not growing but staying focused on his work. Who can relate to Michael Mann? We all can. The film is going to be distributed by STX, which has been in a bit of a tricky circumstance there was a Guy Ritchie movie

called Operation Fortune colon Ruse de Guerre starring Jason Statham and Aubrey Plaza that I saw like a year ago

that still is not out that's an STX movie perhaps they should revisit the title I thought it worked it also it preceded the White Lotus energy that Aubrey Plaza had Yeah. That's an STX movie. Perhaps they should revisit the title. I thought it worked. Okay. It also preceded the White Lotus energy that Aubrey Plaza had, and she has it in that movie too.

So anyhow, STX's movies, they have a bunch of movies that are done, and they're just not putting them out. Because I think there's some financing complications at the company right now. They paid for Michael Mann's movie. The production wrapped last year. So I don't know what his post-production is going to be. I really hope it comes out soon. When it comes out, it's going to be...

We've never done a Michael Mann episode on this show. We've done plenty of them on the rewatchables. In some ways, hasn't every episode been a Michael Mann episode? Every podcast I make is a Michael Mann episode. Yeah, absolutely. But we've never really talked about his work. There's got to be some Michael Mann movies you haven't seen. Of course.

So a chance to get into Black Hat. I still got to read Heat 2 also. I am halfway through the audiobook of Heat 2 and stopped for some stupid reason. I got to pick it up. Yeah. By the way, when you asked me if I read fiction anymore, that was the last fiction that I technically was experiencing

was Heat 2. Okay. But to me, that's memoir. Beautiful. You're excited about Ferrari? Of course. Okay. What's excited about Ferrari? Of course. Okay. What's your number seven?

Magic Mike's Last Dance. My other guy, back, by this I mean Steven Soderbergh, but also Channing Tatum, sort of my guy, on the big screen,

Magic Mike 3, the trailer uses Last Dance, the Donna Summer song, also starring Salma Hayek. Yes. That's all I have to say. It's out February 10th. In movie theaters. Yeah. Soon. I know. Five weeks. Steven Soderbergh just keeps working. You know what's really soon is the Steven Soderbergh Culture Diary, which is one of the

great events of the year. You know, last year when we did this episode, we had our hands on it already. We might have to wait until the end of this week later this week we're going to do an oscar power rankings and talk about the state of things joanna robinson will join us maybe the three of us will get a chance to yeah yeah chat about sody's culture we could save it for like the other half of the megan episode and it can just be like our true like all the fun things of january that would be great fingers crossed on that too well hopefully fingers fingers crossed that Megan is fun. Yeah. Magic Mike's Last Dance

is a really interesting object of modern movies because the first two films were hits, but they were not franchise entertainments per se. Right. They were basically being sold on their bodies. Well, yeah, and their pedigree. A lot of famous people. At the high-low.

Yeah. But also that Soderbergh was, you know, telling the story and bringing McConaughey in and sort of part of the McConaissance. And it was like, oh, we're making something that understands the sort of tackiness of its subject matter but takes it seriously. Is McConaughey in this film? I don't think so. I don't think so either it's really just channing tatum and sama hayek in the trailer at least it's interesting the movie is written by uh reed carolyn who wrote the first two movies who's channing tatum's production

partner who co-directed dog which i thought was quite a good movie their 2022 movie which i think you were i think it was probably released the day you gave birth. No, Kimmy was released the day that I gave birth. Did you watch that? No, Kimmy was February 10th, 2022, which was my due date. And then this is February 10th, 2023. Oh, so for Knox's one year birthday, we'll take him to see Magic Lake. That's fantastic. He might have the build.

Maybe he could, you know, bring some dignity to the- You remember the Kevin Nash character from the first film? You know, the six foot nine guy who was like a mountain? That's going to be Knox for sure. I think that dancing brings coordination and, you know, community. The one thing that Knox is short on right now. He's pretty much got it all except for a little coordination. Everything else, he's got the attitude, the intelligence.

He's got the physical power. He's got- Okay. We're working on coordination. Everything else, he's got the attitude, the intelligence, he's got the physical power, he's got... We're working on coordination. Yeah, anyway, I'm excited. I'm excited too. Number seven, Asteroid City with a little B-side bonus of the wonderful story of Henry Sugar. So Wes Anderson has two films coming out this year.

Asteroid City, which I think has been in the can for some time now and is coming out on June 16th. This is his Western. Here's the cast of Asteroid City, which I think has been in the can for some time now and is coming out on June 16th. This is his Western. Here's the cast of Asteroid City. Tilda Swinton, Adrian Brody, Tom Hanks, Marco Robbie, Rupert Friend, Jason Schwartzman, Scarlett Johansson, Brian Cranston, Hope Davis, Jeff Goldblum, Jeffrey Wright, Liev Schreiber, Matt Dillon, Sophia Lillis, Steve Park, Maya Hawke, Fisher Stevens, Edward Norton Norton Steve Carell Hong Chao Willem Dafoe Rita Wilson Jarvis Cocker

the lead singer of Pulp I don't know what this movie is about I don't really want to know I just want to wait until I can see it on a big screen Love, Wes Anderson French Dispatch

wildly underrated and that's the first film the second film is The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar which is an adaptation of a Roald Dahl film Asteroid City is going

into theaters. I think that's Searchlight, I think. Probably. And Henry Sugar is Netflix. I have not read The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar. Have you read that? I haven't. We were Roald Dahl fans as kids, but that one eluded me.

I guess it's a collection of short stories is where it can be found. Not one that I'm very familiar with. It's an adventure comedy. That's pretty much all I know. Benedict Cumberbatch. Great. You're a pro, Wes Anderson. Oh, yeah.

No, I'm very excited about this. You know me and westerns, so that's the only thing. But Wes Anderson doing a western with this cast, I'm not going to say no. I'm going to say yes,'m gonna say yes enthusiastically what do you where do you stand on the margot robbie is not a movie star thing after babylon didn't do well at the box office i told you i'm not participating in the posting i do think that she could stand to not do you know three hour period pieces from a tours for a year yep sure and i don't know that the scheduling of those release dates was like all her

fault, but the Amsterdam to Babylon, like one, two. Yeah. It doesn't really help, but you think she should go back to playing Harley Quinn? No.

Though I suppose all the people posting about her definitely think so. I mean, not to spoil the rest of this podcast, but she'll, she'll be back. Okay. What's your number six? What is my number six?

Leave the world behind. So this is our friend Sam Esmail's film. If you didn't listen to our episode that we did with Sam Esmail, it was very long, and it was about how to direct a movie and really how he directed this movie. The movie, when we spoke to him, was in post. It's not scheduled yet, i am hopeful i would guess fall 23 yeah that's and that's just like our guessing sim didn't tell us anything anyway this is an adaptation of the rumana lam book which i recommend if you have not read it some great fiction um though it might be fun to not read it and just watch the movie yeah you should do that

and you can read it afterwards and compare and contrast anyway uh this also stars my best friend julia roberts hopefully fingers crossed will you encounter her in the year 2023 in person will you allow me i'm willing to do the whole no i was gonna say to do like the podcast at the length that it deserves when this movie comes out instead of cutting me off rudely halfway through because you have another engagement that you didn't even tell me about the answer is no okay um what i'd be willing to do is i would be willing to just not be on the episode if you and julia want to cook that makes me nervous so i think it would be pretty fun i think it'd be great yeah but i also want to see you in like a true like hosting chair with Julia Roberts.

No, I don't want to host. Okay. So who is going to host? Julia? I think you should host and then be quiet. What if Sam hosted you and Julia? Yeah, yeah. See, I would be fine with that.

That would be fine. Okay. Maybe we'll do that. Anyway, I'm excited about this film. I am too. I'm really looking forward to it. And not just because we love Sam. My number six is Oppenheimer.

Wow. I mean, here's what's amazing about this. So you put this on your list before you sent it to me. And you, number one, claimed Oppenheimer. And number two, put it at number six. Which is just, is this the energy that you're bringing to 2023? I mean, I'm looking forward to it. I don't know what this,

what do you want me to say? I love Tenet. But not enough to put it in the top five. I mean, sure. It's arbitrary. Your face is mad. It's completely arbitrary. The problem is,

as you have already cited with one of your picks, I've got two picks in my top five that I had on last year's list, one of which picks i've got two picks in my top five that i had on last year's list one of which has been on my list for three years in a row because i've been so eagerly anticipating it so a movie like this which under normal circumstances would always be a top five movie even though i have had conflicted relationship with some of nolan's movies i of course i'm very very excited for this it's also one half of the the great double feature

of 2023 the greatest day in movies of 23, in theory, will be July 21st when this movie and another movie that we'll talk about shortly comes out. And so the other thing about Oppenheimer is I was on a blank check last year and talked about Dr. Strangelove. And before I did that, I started watching a bunch of movies about the nuclear age.

And there have been a lot of great and interesting and underseen films about that. And so there is this incredible, and not just kind of zany satires like Strangelove, like a lot of very serious films. On the Beach is one of them that I watched. I thought it was really interesting. Stanley Kramer movie from the early 60s. And so there's a lot to talk about

around the idea of kind of nuclear apocalypse and nuclear science in movie history and the relationship between those two things. So I'm super excited to talk about that and think about those movies. And Nolan is a coin flip for me. He's always been a coin flip for me. It's like half the time, I think he's awesome. The other half of the time, I have no idea what he's talking about. It's like an emotional voice crack every single time you let yourself go for more than a minute on Christopher Nolan. Here's our first episode. You see in Dark Knight Rises? It's fucking stupid. Here's our first episode

of movie therapy. Okay. Is you working through your Chris Nolan relationship? And Chris and I will sit here. No. The bit is

I talked to Christopher Nolan about what's wrong with him. His obsession with time. His obsession with dead wives. That is not. His obsession with broken logic. That is not how therapy or Christopher Nolan works. Well, I'm going to make it work.

Okay. I think Oppenheimer has the chance to be extraordinary. And I'm excited about it. Why do you do this to yourself? Like, you can't even put your heart in it. Just like, don't leave it to me. I'm psyched. I love a big budget movie, even if it makes no sense.

Speaking of incredible cast, this movie has a psychotic cast. Just for the listeners at home, it follows the life of the theoretical physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer, the director of the Los Alamos Laboratory during the Manhattan Projects and his contributions

that led to the creation of the atomic bomb. Cillian Murphy, Emily Blunt, Matt Dillon, Robert Downey Jr., Florence Pugh, Rami Malek,

Benny Safdie. What's up, Benny? I did not know he was in this. Michael Angarano, Josh Hartnett, Kenneth Branagh, Dane DeHaan, David Krumholz, Alden Ehrenreich, Matthew Modine, Jack Quaid, Jason Clarke, Josh Peck, Alex Wolff, Tony Goldwyn. The list goes on. I mean, just an unbelievable collection of white men. Alden Ehrenreich comeback starts now?

Yeah, he's in something else this year too that looks pretty good. I hope he makes it. Yeah, he didn't get a fair share. What was the Warren Beatty film with him and Lily Collins? Oh, with Lily Collins,

Rules Don't Apply? Rules Don't Apply. So like not good but secretly amazing. Okay. Like kind of in the Babylon zone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just like Warren just went for it. Everything, all the work that you did pro Babylon was just taken away by you being like also in the Babylon zone is Warren Beatty's Rules Don't apply starring alden ehrenreich and lily collins

i like the rules don't apply yeah uh okay what's your number five napoleon yeah ridley yeah starring joaquin phoenix as napoleon bonaparte you want to talk about your excursion into european history replacing jodie comer as empress josephine i have been reading up on my european history on wikipedia i can't say that i've come to any firm understandings of anything this this started because you and i are going to do an episode later on on all quiet on the western front which is a german film that is um in the oscar conversation for international feature and also a lot of effects and that's about world war one and then we just started talking about world war one oh and we were also talking about um corsage another film that will

be competing in international feature. It's Austrian, stars Vicky Kreps, and it's about an Austrian empress. And this is kind of where my understanding of what's happening in Europe from, I would say, roughly 1860 to 1914 falls apart. You know, it's like you got the Habsburgs, but then you got the Kaiser. I just like, I don't know. I can't keep all of these people straight. So, and then I was curious how Napoleon comes into the mix. And it turns out that Napoleon died before all of this.

Just so you know, Sean and I had a conversation about when Napoleon died. He died before all this. He died. It was not 1512. You guessed it, dinner. It was 1821. That's my best joke of 2022. It was really funny.

And Eileen was like, is that real? Did he get it right? But some of the power vacuum that was created in the wake of his death and France's military kind of triumphs and then lack of triumphs um creates some of the the situations that ultimately lead to world war one i think i gotta be honest i could use wikipedia being like a little more direct i don't think that's what this movie is going to be about no i don't either um i think it'll probably be about him um you know having a napoleon Napoleon complex and being power hungry and Vanessa Kirby just absolutely going for it.

Just being a smoke show. Yeah. Last time Joaquin Phoenix appeared in a Ridley Scott film, it was Gladiator. Yeah. And he was Commodus

and he gave the epic thumbs down. Also notable, Ridley Scott currently casting Gladiator 2. Sick. Are you aware of that? Yeah. Who should be in Gladiator? Austin Butlerley scott currently casting gladiator 2 sick are you aware of that yeah who should be in gladiator austin butler should he be in gladiator 2 oh he would be good good work what is the story of gladiator 2 i want to see her in gladiator 2 um i don't know what it is well what i want to see is the nick cave script where

maximus goes to hell oh uh. Yeah. That would be different. I just assumed there would be a second gladiator. Reasonable. Reasonable take. Okay. My number five is

I'm just going to slot this in because you stole a movie from me that was in my number five slot. I had it. You took it. I took it back. We've been bartering and brokering here on the show.

In fact, didn't you take Napoleon from me? Sure. Okay. But you said that I could. We're all sharing. Yeah. I'm putting the zone of interest here, which is...

Good sharing. That's some Alice and Knox language. The zone of interest is a Holocaust drama, apparently, from Jonathan Glazer, the director of Under the Skin and Birth and Sexy Beast. He hasn't made a movie in nine years, eight years. And he's one of my favorite filmmakers. He is really one of the first filmmakers that I interviewed when I went into this new phase of my career, covering movies more regularly. And I really, really like what he does

he's a famed music video director one of the great palm dvds ever made is the collected music videos of jonathan glazer i encourage people to check that out check out his music video directorial work um worth noting that this is based on a martin amos novel and all i know is that max beck is in the film that's the only actor that i know i think there are a handful of other i want to say jesse buckley is in this film handful of other well-known actors are you know is that Max Beck is in the film. That's the only actor that I know. I think there are a handful of other, I want to say Jesse Buckley is in this film, a handful of other well-known actors. Are you sure? Is that just kind of wishful thinking of?

That's just what I think about every movie. I'm like, the Marvels, is Jesse Buckley in that? Is she one of the Supremes in the Marvels? They should make that movie. Oh, you know who it is? It's Sandra Huller from Tony Erdman. Oh, that's fun. The German actress. She's really good. Well, is it's it's um it's Sandra Haller from Tony Erdman oh uh oh that's fine the German actress she's really good well is it fun given the topic I mean it's gonna be a

very intense kind of probably like a psychological freak out nightmare drama about the holocaust so that's not fun but Glazer is a master so I'm excited about that okay what's your number four Priscilla written and directed by the one the only Sofiaia coppola i i love her so this is an adaptation of priscilla presley's memoir elvis and me have you read that no i haven't i'm not i like elvis but i wouldn't say that i've spent a lot of time on like elvis lore um i i care about elvis more than chris ryan does who just seems to interject i don't care about Elvis more than Chris Ryan does, who just seems to interject. I don't care about Elvis into like every other podcast that he does. I'm interested.

Anyway, Priscilla, Sophia's directing it. The woman playing Priscilla is Kaylee Spaney, who you might know as Aaron McMenamin from Mare of Easttown. Oh. Yes. Oh, interesting. Oh. Yes. Oh, interesting. Oh, oh. Okay. And then.

She was good. Yeah. And then, of course, Jacob Elordi will be playing Elvis, which is just pitch perfect casting. Yeah. This is really good. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah.

I love, I love Sofia Coppola's movies. As do I. And does well with the period piece, I find. Yeah. Virgin Suicides, Beguiled. Right. She's got a knack for that. Also, telling a story through a slightly off-center female perspective is something that she does a lot.

And it is smart. And I enjoy. Speaking of an off-center female perspective, Dune Part 2 is my number four. This is Denis Villeneuve's follow-up to the smash success Dune Part 1. Yeah. Some new additions to this cast. Remember the meltdown you had when

the Part 1 showed up on the screen and you were like, what? Well, I try to do this thing where I want to know everything about movies and nothing about them. I've already said a couple of times today where I'm like, I'm trying to not read about this because I don't want to ruin anything for myself. And that's how I felt about Dune. I was so anticipating the film, which frankly lived up. It was good. It was very good. Yeah. And it did leave me a little bit deflated at the end because I wanted more, but I was pretty

moved by it. And one of the better in theater film going experiences I've had in the last few years. You know what it was is that when you saw it, there was no part one under the title. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. And by the when you saw it there was no part one under the title that's what i'm saying yeah and by the time i saw it a couple weeks later they had added the part one right right so that people knew when it ended i was just like what the hell yeah um so as i said a couple of additions to this cast including florence pew as princess irulan very important character in the story right also very important to the don't worry darling press tour she wasn't available for anything because she was quote unquote filming dude.

Convenient. Meanwhile, Austin Butler was available for the Elvis press tour, but also he was shooting this film as well. He plays Faye Drowtha. Christopher Walken joining the cast. Great. Lea Seydoux joining the cast. Love it. A lot of really good actors in this film.

Lin-Manuel, visual genius. Hopefully he'll come back on the pod. Talk about part two. I hope this movie makes $500 billion. Same. That's my take. That's a lot of money. It's coming out November 3rd.

Okay. Which will make for a wonderful fall release. I'm excited. I enjoyed the first one. How long is this one? Like 14 hours? Probably. Great.

Is that okay? Is part two it? It's two and done? Yes, although there is a Ben E benedict spinoff tv show on hbo max that's been discussed where are you at on the benedict like would you consider use the voice uh would i consider being a part of the benedict yeah yeah i mean i my parenting style the mother of a son is going to be primarily inspired by that. But I did actually see Dune Part 1.

Like, I think I must have been like three, four months pregnant and had just found out that I was having a boy. And I was just like, mothers and sons, you know, we did it. The Bible, Dune, and me. There's that scene early in the film where Rebecca Ferguson is teaching Timothee Chalamet to use the voice. That is kind of you with Knox and a banana. You're like chewing. There's that scene early in the film where Rebecca Ferguson is teaching Timothy Chalamet to use the voice. That is kind of you with Knox and a banana. You're like, chewing? Chewing?

Yeah, it was a long, it was a lovely holiday, but a long holiday, guys. Your number three. Challengers. Luca Guadagnino back making hopefully beautiful things about rich people with problems. In this case, I mean, it's fine. Sometimes you also got to make a movie about teenage cannibals. Yeah, they were cannibals, not vampires. They were cannibals.

Yeah. That's a reference to Bones and All, which was a pretty good movie. I like it. If you haven't seen it. I couldn't get Eileen to watch it. I've been trying to get her to watch it. She won't watch it. It's pretty gross for the first 20 minutes and then it evens out. This is a sports comedy, romantic sports comedy starring Zendaya, Mike Face, who you might remember from West Side Story, who's wonderful, and Josh O'Connor, he of The Crown seasons three

and four. I'm psyched. It's about tennis. Like, great. I don't know what else to say. This is coming out in August. August 11th is the date which like makes me a little nervous but maybe the thing is though is that there is always everyone gives has given up on august and then the last few years there's something that comes out in august everyone was like oh that was really great and it has a little space so what was that this year i can't remember because i like bodies bodies bodies but i don't think yeah you had covid in august i did yeah for my birthday remember and that's why we couldn't do the taste test oh gosh yeah so taste test i don't know when that's gonna happen i know i saw once again yeah you're just updating this spreadsheet live on twitter i want i want bobby to be present

for the taste test so that's what i do as well we're gonna conspire to get the movie star taste test going later this year. Something we've been threatening for a long time which may actually not be fun for anybody but us but we shall see. Yeah.

I too am looking forward to Challengers and I love Luca Guadagnino's movies. My number three is Bo is Afraid. This is formerly known as Disappointment Boulevard.

This was on my list last year. My top three were all on my list last year which makes me feel not great about the quality of podcasting we're doing here, but it's just true to my heart. It's not your fault.

It's not my fault. Bo is Afraid is the new film from Ari Aster. It's the second film on our list that stars Joaquin Phoenix. It's a surrealist comedy horror film, which is how I would describe all of Ari Aster's movies. And that's all I know.

I know that there was once upon a time a four-hour cut of this movie. I'm fascinated to know what the runtime will be. It does not have a release date yet. All we know is it's 2023. I'd imagine it's a festival movie. Not sure. In addition to Joaquin Phoenix, also stars Nathan Lane and Patti LuPone, two famed stars

of The Great White Way. I don't know what that indicates to us, if anything. Parker Posey, also in this movie. Love Parker Posey. of the great white way. I don't know what that indicates to us. If anything, um, Parker Posey also in this movie, love Parker Posey. I like this. The poster was a child and then the name Joaquin Phoenix over the top. Right.

Yes. I liked that. Um, it's a very odd poster. Yeah. It's a painting that makes it seem like the film is titled Joaquin Phoenix. Sure. Yeah.

But that's cool. I mean, it's just, the are afoot, is what it suggests. I may be getting this wrong, but I feel like this is the movie that has been Ari's, like, kind of dream project, like, his script that has been in his back pocket for, like, 10 years. And it took a long time for him to get Hereditary funded. It took a long time for him to basically get to where he is now,

which is, you know, he's in that new class of Robert Eggers, Barry Jenkins, Lulu Wong, the Safdies, kind of these A24 cadre of exciting, frankly, old millennial filmmakers. That is our class. There's been this

challenge question that I've seen on the internet a handful of times, like name one all-time generational classic created by anyone born after 1980 and it's hard to do there's not that many um i think ari is one of the handful of people who has shown that like he could do it are his first two movies in that class i know for you personally they're not necessarily but he's gotten close for me he's gotten into that like four and a half star territory so i'm i'm, very hopeful for this movie.

Do you think I'll be able to see this one? I think you should try. Okay. I think it's more likely to play, unfortunately for you, as the only other category that really kind of bums you out, which is like awkward comedy. Oh, yeah. I don't care for that. Though I can do it more than Zach can. You're kind of putting me in a...

I'm conflating you guys. Yeah. I can do it. But you don't love it. I don't love it. Yeah. And it's not how I would choose to spend my time, of putting me in it. I'm conflating you guys. Yeah, I can do it. But you don't love it. And it's not how I would choose to spend my time, but I could like it.

Okay. I love Joaquin, as you know. He's wonderful. Yeah. What's your number two? Little film called Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning Part One.

Let's go! Tom Cruise defying death until he doesn't once again on the big screen. July 14th, 2023. Before we started recording, Sean, Bobby and I were conspiring on how we could also be together to experience this seismic event in the world of movies and the world of the big picture. I enjoy Tom Cruise doing stupid, scary, amazing shit on a big screen.

This is also my number two for the record. It's not actually my number two, but in my heart, it's my number two most anticipated movie. I can't wait. This is the best movie franchise.

This is the best movie star. Macquarie is the best movie producer right now working, I think, as evidenced by his work with Cruise over the last five or seven years. It's a rare movie, too, where I'm like, give me all of the ancillary content.

Are you just saying that because Tom Cruise jumped out of a plane and yelled, see you at the movies? I'm not, but yes, I am. Yeah. I was really moved by that. Tom Cruise in general is really good at ancillary content.

Remember when he went to see Tenet in theaters at the pandemic? And it was just like a video of him walking through various hotel tunnels and kitchens because he can't interact with real humans. And then never forget one of the great videos of all time, which is Tom Cruise and Christopher McQuarrie teaching you how to turn off motion smoothing. Which you didn't do. You've been using motion smoothing.

You don't watch things in my house. Of course I turned off motion smoothing. When will you invite me over to watch something? Never, because you're very, very anal retentive about it. That's true. That's true. All right. So never.

My number two was on my list last year. It's The Killer. Yeah. Netflix film. Undated. Directed by David Fincher. Starring Michael Fassbender in his first film in quite some time. If you set aside his small role as Magneto in the last X-Men movie, which was an absolute disaster.

Prior to that, I think it's been five years. Yeah. Since Fassbender's been in a movie. He's becoming a race car driver. Or is being a race car driver. He's been spending some time becoming a race car driver or is being a race car driver spending a time becoming a race car driver he's been spending some time on his marriage um he's been spending some time raising a family and uh and just chilling in portugal which who can blame him yeah seems like he has a phenomenal life my irish german king

and he's gonna play a an assassin who has a change of heart, which... Does he? We'll see. Yeah. What I want to see on screen... Episode two of Movie Therapy is you watching the killer

and then just talking about your feelings. I just really want to see Michael Fassbender murder people in cold blood for the first 45 minutes. Yeah. You know, just like... David Fincher showed me beat by beat what an expert murderer Fassbender is.

And then get me involved psychologically, emotionally, as he thinks about his life and how he's been spending his life and changes things about his life. That's all of us. Right. We're all murderous psychopaths until we learn empathy. He's not going to change anything? No. I know nothing about this movie

except, you know, the one still that they showed us and the fact that it's been teased for several years. He won't change anything. It's a David Fincher movie starring Michael Fassbender. We know where this is going to go. That's okay. That makes it powerful. If you could have David Fincher direct any other movie on our list, which one would it be?

Well, I don't want to spoil my number one, but that would be pretty funny. That would be awesome. Yeah. Okay. Maybe we should just dive into it. I will just say I will do another Fincher episode. I will do another rankings. I will do another two hours on David Fincher.

I don't care. Well, you're saying that to me like it's a threat. I, too, like David Fincher. I know you do. You're saying that to me like it's a threat. I, too, like David Fincher. I know you do. Maybe we should do a Mindhunter episode. Yeah. 20 hours of Mindhunter. Come on. Let's revisit it. Let's dive in.

I would do Benjamin Button before that. I would do eight of the music videos before that. I would do Gone Girl before that, obviously. What else? I don't know. I never got to do Social Network Rewatchables.

So, you know, I would do it again. Was I on that? You were, yeah. Sick. Yeah. I can't even remember anymore. Okay. What's your number one?

Barbie, obviously. Yeah. Directed by Greta Gerwig from a script by Gerwig and Noah Baumbach. Starring Margot Robbie and Ryan Gosling and a bunch of other people. I just, I will say, when I heard that Greta Gerwig had signed up to do a movie based on the Mattel figurine Barbie. And part of, you know, it's like the everything, every video game or toy game now becomes a movie. I was a little bit depressed. And then we saw the photos from the set of Margot Robbie and especially Ryan Gosling

as Ken just looking completely deranged. Then the teaser came out, which is just a, not a send up, an homage to 2001 A Space Odyssey and also a send up of all the men online who saw Greta Gerwig doing that with Barbie and got really mad. It was just sick. And I can't believe I doubted Greta even for a second. I trust in her completely. This is a very, like, kind of sneakily ambitious. I mean, it's, you know, it's still like corporate spawn con or whatever, but she's examining a totem of cultural significance from a new way.

And I trust her and I'm excited and it's going to be really funny. And yes. I'm very excited. Yeah. I have no reason to not be excited. It is a big excited. Yeah. I have no reason to not be excited. It is a big swing. Yeah. And what I don't want, I'm kind of dreading the aftermath.

I'm excited about experiencing it. What if we don't participate in the bad aftermath? We can do the same thing because this is coming out July 21st, the same day as Oppenheimer. Yep. A week after Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning Part 1. Yes, when we will be truly alive. Basically, a week before Sean's birthday and my birthday. And that's kind of like the big pick Christmas and New Year's,

that week in July. So we'll do all the podcasts. Vacation time. Goodbye. Good luck to all of you. So released on your birthday weekend is the marvels so that's great for you that's

exciting now i think they should remake it as the supreme yeah uh yeah they are gonna make a marvel movie where they all just like break out into song before all is that it could be

guardians three yeah that's even like that's really exciting i prefer a girl group but anyway my number one is killers of the flower moon yeah this movie is gonna come out at some point like it said and done. Could be Guardians 3. Yeah. That's really upsetting. I prefer a girl group but anyway. My number one is Killers of the Flower Moon. Yeah. This movie is going to

come out at some point. Like it has to come out. They have to release it. The saddest part of this exercise was when you left a note in the document being like

should we not include things that have been on our list before? And I was like first of all there won't be any movies left on the list. I just feel like fucking Bartleby the Scrivener talking about this movie.

Yeah. Like, I just want to see. I'm just dying to see. I read this book like five years ago. Okay. I'm dying to see. It's based on David Grand nonfiction work about a series of murders and misdeeds against native peoples living in Oklahoma. It is a brilliant piece of crime nonfiction.

This film is directed by Martin Scorsese. It's a screenplay by Scorsese and Eric Roth, one of the great screenwriters. Leo DiCaprio, Robert De Niro, Jesse Plemons, and Brendan Fraser. I love it. It's probably going to be three hours long. Mm-hmm.

The budget is $200 million. They've been in Oklahoma for a decade. Feels like five years. Yeah. Leo's a big OKC fan now. Yes. It's being distributed by Apple and Paramount. Okay.

I just want to see it now. Reportedly, it's going to play at Cannes. They said that last year. I will make five consecutive Scorsese episodes. I will make them. I will be on as many of them as I can record from France. What's your favorite Martin Scorsese movie? What is my, I mean, probably Goodfellas.

I really like Age of Innocence, obviously, but that's like the obvious Amanda pick. But it's cool that he can do that. What else? This is great podcasting. I mean, I like all of them. But I didn't. Well, I didn't like Silence. I didn't like Hugo.

Silence is amazing. I know. But it's such boy shit, you know? And I can just see. Me and all my priests. And, you know, Andrew Garfield. God bless him. I love him.

But you just see him throwing everything into it and then his the rest of his life it's just like a personal search though yeah it's high level anyway silence pod upcoming okay me solo what are my other favorite scorsese movies oh i love wolf of wall street i can't believe it took me that long to think of wolf of wall street that's top five for sure. Departed. Yeah, I do like Departed. I still don't really understand what was happening in it, but that's okay. Okay, it's very easy to understand.

No, it's not. It's very confusing. Shutter Island? No. After Hours? The King of Comedy? No. Raging Bull?

I do like all of these. Mean Streets? Nah. Yes, of course. There's a whole... Yeah. Who's that knocking at my door? Sure.

Box Car Bertha? No, not that. Who's that knocking at my door? Sure. Boxcar Bertha? No, not that. Alice doesn't live here anymore? Right. Should I just keep naming Scorsese? I can keep going. Yeah, go ahead. I'm not even looking anymore.

Color of Money. That's one of the great ones. Yeah. The Last Temptation of Christ? No. Cape Fear? My parents really liked Cape Fear. Okay.

I don't know what to say about that. It's pretty creepy. Yeah, well. The Aviator? No, I don't know what to say about that it's pretty creepy yeah well the aviator no i don't like the aviator remember i tried to re-watch it on vacation one time a couple years ago i was like this is like i too like planes and and movies but this got away from you a little my guy martin scorsese's the blues um i really enjoy many of the films he's produced. No Direction Home? No. Rolling Thunder Review?

He's made two documentaries about Bob Dylan. Oh my God. I can't believe, I can believe that this podcast evolved into you just naming Martin Scorsese movies and yelling about Bob Dylan. During our vacation

over the New Year's holiday, I played four Bob Dylan albums. I know. Four. I love Bob Dylan so much, as does Marty. I can't wait for Kills of the Flower Moon. I'm really really excited

I just I needed to come out so I could stop putting it on lists on podcasts okay I have a lot of honorable mentions you have a few as well

sure I'm gonna list some okay Megan it's coming out in three days I hope it's good you know what I'm really

fired up for tell me is the Emma Seligman Rachel Sennett oh yeah they're they're reuniting for a movie called Bottoms.

I loved Shiva Baby. Very funny. I loved, loved Rachel Sennett in Bodies, Bodies, Bodies. I thought she was by far the best part of that movie. People were very mad we didn't put her on our 35 under 35 list. Maybe they'll make us feel bad about it when that movie comes out and it's good. A couple of other quick ones. The Governesses is Joe Talbot's first movie since Last Black Man in San Francisco.

Huge movie for WAGs, one of Bobby's favorite movies. I'm really looking forward to that one. And I'm also really looking forward to Landscape with Invisible Hand, which is playing Sundance in his new Corey Finley movie, who made Thoroughbreds and Bad Education. Thoroughbreds now looking like one of those predictive independent films because it starred a not yet famous Anya Teller-Joy and Olivia Cooke. Right. Who is now a megastar on House of the Dragon. And of course, Anya Teller-Joy is Anya Teller-Joy. So I'm really excited about those.

What are some of yours? Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret. The Judy Blume adaptation. Steve McQueen is making a movie about the Blitz starring Saoirse Ronan. those any what are some of yours are you there god it's me margaret the judy bloom adaptation um steve mcqueen is making a movie about the blitz starring sersha ronan called blitz yeah i sure sounds great yeah um and then there's a movie that i wrote down but now i can't remember what it's about so hold on i thought this was a good poll i didn't know about this okay yeah all right and then a movie called firebrand which is a costume historical drama sean's favorite genre about katherine parr who is the

last wife of henry the eighth that's pretty key uh modifier if you know anything about henry the eighth starring alicia vikander jude law is henry the eighth and then you know a lot of british people there's three huge releases that we didn't mention that bear mentioning I'm not saying I'm not sure I'm super fired up for a couple of them but I'm looking forward to

Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny James Mangold's new film about Indiana Jones well yeah but then James Mangold's new film about Indiana Jones kind of says everything it's not Steven Spielberg's Indiana Jones I still I I got my fingers crossed on this.

I really am excited for it. Actually, we were talking about that great stretch of releases in July. This film is on June 30th. It's going to be one of the biggest movies of the year. In theory, we shall see. I'm very excited for Scream 6. I thought Scream 5 was a lot of fun.

They're going to New York City. Same guys, Radio Silence, who made Scream 5. We're going to do big Scream rankings. I'm going to make you watch Scream 3 and 4. I don't think you've seen those. Have you seen those? I haven't, but I do like Scream. You do like Scream movies. In made Scream 5. We're going to do big Scream rankings. I'm going to make you watch Scream 3 and 4. I don't think you've seen those. Have you seen those? I haven't, but I do like Scream. You do like Scream movies.

In the Scream franchise. Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse, part one. Yeah, why isn't this on the list? I don't know. I don't know. What's wrong with you? I just feel like I get bored of talking about certain movies sometimes. I'm very excited about this one as well.

I think it's November. Is that right? Maybe it's over the summer. I can't recall. Why are you asking me? I just, I wanted to, this is episode three of Movie Therapy, is why are you turning your back on the things that you love? Every episode of this show is movie therapy. I know, but what's up with it?

Just be excited. Were you out on Wonka? Why? I mean, it's fine if Timothee Chalamet wants to play a Wonka who fucks. Like, that's cool. But what, do we need this? I don't know. We're going to find out.

It's one of the huge, the idea was to put Dune Part 2 out in November and Wonka out in December. Wonka's a musical, by the way. I did learn that from Matt Bellamy's newsletter. Moving on. Can Timothee Chalamet sing? I know he can rap, you know, about math or whatever that clip is from high school. I don't know. Okay.

We're going to find out. A couple of other movies. Poor Things and End. Two Yorgos Lanthimos movies in one year. Great. Low-key one I'm really looking forward to

is The Bike Riders from Jeff Nichols. Jeff Nichols has made a movie in a long time. Since Midnight Special? Midnight Special was his last movie. He made a lot of really good

Mud and Shotgun Stories and some of my favorite movies in the 2010s. Night Bitch. Mariel Heller's new movie starring amy adams sure we'll see hotly debated hotly contested eileen uh otessa moshfeg's adaptation of her novel which i love um that's probably the when you were asking me about fiction i was like is that the last piece of fiction you have definitely talked about eileen at least 45 times i love eileen so much yeah william oldroyd directing the movie starring ann hathaway hopefully that's very good playing at

sundance um and strange way of life new pedro almonov movie great coming this year i'm very much looking forward to it he was originally going to make an english language movie and i saw that he moved off of it and now isn't making that film anymore i think it was gonna start kate tilda swinton or kate blanchett i can can't recall. Anyhow, a lot of stuff coming out. Love movies. Are you excited? I am. I like to see movies.

What if it's horrible? What if they all suck? Like what if Barbie is a car crash? What if Oppenheimer is disastrous? Does it kind of be like last year, honestly? No. Last year was not good except for a couple movies that were great. No, that's not right.

Can we look at our, oh, you deleted our great. No, that's not right. Can we look at our... Oh, you deleted our list. No, you didn't. Here they are. Our 2022 most anticipated list. Okay, go quickly. Okay. Do yours.

I'm going from 11 to 1. Ticket to Paradise. I mean, I had a great time. 10, Don't Worry Darling. Tremendous content. 9, Elvis. Might win Best Picture. 8, Frozen Fire Island.

Also had a great time. 7 was Beth and Don, which has been retitled. And hold on. Okay. Seven, Beth and Don, now known as You Heard My Feelings coming out of Sundance. Six, Knives Out 2, aka Glass Onion. You and I had a great time and lots of people watched it on Netflix. Five, The Eternal Daughter also happened to be number five on my best movies of the year.

There we go. Four, Worst Person in the World. That was a sick movie. Three, She Said. I don't know what to say. Two, Maestro. Didn't come out. One, Top Gun Maverick. Here's my top 11 from last year. 11, The Batman. It ruled. 10, Tar. It ruled. 9, Women Talking. We'll talk about it later this week. 8, Babylon. Yes, brother. Number 7, The Fablemans in Armageddon Time. We did it. Number 6, The Killer. It didn't come out. Number 5, Everything Everywhere All at Once. Probably will win Best Picture. Number 4, White Noise. I liked it. Number 3, The Northmen. Hell yeah, brother. Number 2, Nope. My number one movie of the year number one killers of the flower moon didn't come out is number one again okay we did it thanks amanda let's go down to my conversation with nikkiatu jutsu In 100 meters, turn right.

Actually, no. Turn left. There's some awesome new breakfast wraps at McDonald's. Really? Yeah. There's the sausage, bacon, and egg. A crispy seasoned chicken one. Mmm. A spicy end egg. Worth the detour. They sound amazing. Bet they taste amazing, too.

Wish I had a mouth. Take your morning into a delicious new direction with McDonald's new breakfast wraps. Add a small premium roast coffee for a dollar plus tax at participating McDonald's restaurants. Nikki, thank you for doing the show today. How are you? I'm good. Thank you for having me. I wanted to start by asking you about genre because obviously Nanny is in genre and I've been reading about what you're working on next and it seems like you're sticking to genre. Yeah.

Do you remember the first time you saw, I don't know how you want to describe it. Is it horror? Is it fantasy? Is it something in the movies that really switched on your imagination? always have a hard time with answering like first and like uh parameters around like favorites because i think everything is so fluid and memory is so fluid and so sometimes i remember certain films and sometimes i want to dig a little deeper um but i what immediately came to mind i would say was drop dead fred which is like this i was I was going to give a disclaimer and say, you probably haven't heard of it. I'm dating myself, but it's good that you know it because

I think as a kid, that was one of the first times I saw something that really felt universal in terms of externalizing what it means to become an adult. At the time, I didn't wrap my mind around all the themes, but I remember as a kid just being touched by the ways that they navigated this woman's imaginary friend. I love that answer. I've heard you say in the past that maybe you didn't grow up in an environment where it seemed obvious that you could be a filmmaker or go into movies. But did you have an awareness?

Did you have heroes as directors growing up? Did you understand the kind of apparatus of Hollywood or international film? This is what makes me, I think, such an anomaly for other reasons, too. But I did not grow up being fascinated by this industry and I did not grow up being necessarily a cinephile. I grew up, so immigrant parents, I think anyone who talks about this sounds like a broken record, but there really is some truth to the stereotype that immigrant parents kind of funnel their kids into really tangible career paths like engineering medicine um the sciences uh and so this wasn't even something

that anyone was talking about being an artist remotely but you know in retrospect as an adult you realize there are so many artists in your own family who had to abandon that dream for practicality, you know? And so you think about the uncle who always showed up in like all these colors and had really interesting things to say about art. And you just start to think about as you get older, how many people in your own family abandoned this dream? So I say that to say that I think I have a lot of artists in my family who just weren't able to really have the privilege of manifesting this dream. So I say that to say that I think I have a lot of artists in my family who just weren't able to really have the privilege of manifesting that dream. But like my mom, for instance, she self-published two novels as she was doing these really working class jobs

and reading. We were a voracious household of readers. There was always a book, whether my dad was more on the self-help side of things and my mom and I were more on the fiction side of things. And so losing ourselves in reading, I would say my entry point into storytelling was through reading and writing, truly. And then I stumbled, I don't know if you know my backstory, but let me let you ask questions. No, I mean, if there's anything you want to share about it, I'm always interested. I'm always interested in artists whose families do not have artistic backgrounds. I'm going to give you the quick, the quick, the consolidated version, because I've given this answer so many times. So I went to undergrad, I went to Duke University for biomedical engineering. Sophomore year, I stumbled into a screenwriting course that fulfilled an English requisite and completely fell in love. Our assignment was to, our culminating assignment, which is insane

for like stumbling into a screenwriting class, was to write a feature script. I didn't, I had barely written poems in high school, you know, so to write a feature script was just this new thing that really piqued my interest. And I fell in love. And the professor, Elizabeth Benfie, this French woman saw something in this class of like random people who just wanted to fulfill the English requisite. She saw something in me. And so I, I, I stumbled into like a film production course, like intro to film productions. Cause I was like, okay, if I'm really curious about this, I need to see what it's like to actually try to bring your words off the page and make them something that is living and breathing. Um, so once I did start to make short films in undergrad, just experimental, stupid stuff with friends

who were just charismatic and camera ready, I fell in love. And so I pivoted sophomore year to the closest thing they had to a film major. But I say all this, and then I went straight to grad to NYU grad from undergrad I got lucky I got in because it's the only I secretly only applied to NYU grad film for my MFA and um I I stumbled into this but if I really think about like by osmosis when you grow

up in a family that feels creative in different ways it's not random it's not as random as we think i don't think i'm interested in how you applied yourself to in the aftermath of all that education because you've been making short films for over 15 years now you you've been teaching film classes in that time. Yeah. And it's obviously notoriously difficult to break into Hollywood, notoriously difficult for people of color, for women, for a whole, you've got a whole lot of things. Working class people. Yes.

Immigrants, like everything working against you in that respect. Literally. And yet you're here obviously, and you're doing great. But that interregnum, that period, that middle period when you're like, I know what I want to do. I have a good idea of how to develop my voice. Now what? Can you just describe that period of your life? Yeah.

You know what? Again, I say that I had the luxury of going straight from undergrad to New York City to NYU grad film, which felt like a movie. I was like 21. I had never lived in New York City to NYU grad film, which felt like a movie. Like I was like 21. I had never lived in New York. I was born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia. So get there for grad school and I'm young and dumb and like making mistakes. And I really do. New York is my surrogate home. I became a woman there. I became a filmmaker there. I just really absorbed everything is on the surface in that city, you know? So being an artist in New York, being young, no, nothing to tether you like no family. A lot of my classmates at the time,

cause NYU doesn't restrict you to having come straight from undergrad. A lot of them worked in the industry, took a break from the industry, came back to NYU grad film, or took a break from undergrad and came back. And so I had classmates who were coming from finance and coming from law and coming from who are older and had families. And so the stakes were a lot higher for them immediately. For me, the stakes were kind of low. I was still figuring out what I wanted to do with this film thing, but my dad was the one who really, this was really smart of him. He said, get a terminal degree because if it doesn't work out, you can still teach. So he was still thinking in terms of academics. And I always thought about that back up when I was like, I can teach.

An MFA as a practitioner is the culminating degree. You don't need a PhD as a running from school to school all over the city, teaching film production. Like I was teaching in the grittiest schools and bedside to 11th and 12th graders. And anyone who's taught in Brooklyn, 11th and 12th graders at a school that has less resources knows what that can look like. Like just because you're teaching filmmaking doesn't mean you have that cool factor. You're dealing with behavioral issues, all kinds of things. So I was just going through the motions and was figuring out that I want to create. I knew that much. I want to keep creating. And I knew I didn't want to be on sets because sets leave nothing left for you. At the end of the production, if you're crewing on

other people's shoots, it leaves nothing for you to write at night. It leaves nothing left for your spirit to still chip away at as a creative. So I made a promise to myself in film school, as I was crewing for other classmates that after film school, my day job would be in academia because I'm teaching my craft and it holds me accountable as an artist teaching my craft. So I can't tell students about breaking structure. And I break structure in my own work and can't explain why I have broken structure or how, you know, and so that's the long version of me saying that academia has saved me from losing myself in relentless productions and thinking that I'm going to

move from PA to director because it just, it rarely happens, especially for people like me. I really like that answer because I feel like sometimes when aspirant filmmakers go into academia, in some cases, academia can kind of like fry your brain a little bit and everything becomes about the abstraction and the history and less about the actual physical work. Execution. Yeah.

How'd you keep your toes in that? Like, were you constantly raising money for shorts? Like, what was that? Good question. So I made three shorts at NYU as part of being there that really kind of helped to start to establish my style and the themes that I wanted to navigate. And also, who is better to be immersed around as collaborators than other smart film students? Like, everybody's working for free essentially this is the one time as a young adult that you're gonna get this many talented people to work for you for

free and so being in the microcosm of film school and coming from the working class background that you mentioned like money was always a thing for me. I had classmates who were way like wealthy. I'm not talking like American wealthy. I'm talking international wealthy. And so like second year film is the first film that really the stakes are really high and you start to see who's really talented and who's just has pretty imagery.

And so people would fly home to Beijing and like shoot a multi-thousand dollar second year film because they had it and i i just kept pulling from stories that only i could tell i just kept remembering no matter what i'm navigating i have to tell stories i could tell so i i was able to create a small canon in film school. And then out of film school, I'm still surrounded by these film students. Some of them as young as me or a little older than me. And we just kept working backwards from our resources. Yvonne Shirley was one of my classmates. And we looked up and we had graduated and we were working, busting our ass and frustrated. And we decided to make a list of our resources and make a short film

based on that. So I was teaching in a high school in Brooklyn. She was doing what she was doing. We were both working with teenagers in New York City. So we wrote a short script based on teens in New York City, lots of exterior locations, daytime, cheapest way to shoot in the city. I think not enough rising filmmakers think in terms of working backwards from what they have access to versus trying to compete with people who have a gazillion more resources than you. So one thing that I really like about Nanny is incredible control over tone, which is very uncommon for first-time feature filmmakers. So obviously you have a lot of experience having made a lot of shorts.

I appreciate that. Is that something that you feel like you were able to hone over that period of time? Yes. Yeah. Making the shorts. I would say I made around six shorts. Five, six shorts before my feature. And the last short, Suicide by Sunlight, was really the one that helped to catapult me into financing and representation and

the Sundance family. So... Were you making those shorts with that expressly in mind? Was it like a strategy to say, I need to get enough things in front of enough people so that eventually I can get representation or did it happen more by happenstance? You know what? Well, I wouldn't say happenstance. I don't think that's the word or your previous option. I would say I'm one of those people. And again, this goes back to my childhood. Like I'm not one of those people who grew up romanticizing Hollywood or being fascinated by Hollywood, I have an impulse to communicate. And so I was making things because of this impulse to communicate in the way that I was most, I felt most at home within. And filmmaking just kind of pulls in every facet

of communication. It's writing, it's music, it's a photography a photography you know it's so many elements so many mediums in one and as someone who probably I may have undiagnosed ADHD I haven't ever been tested and I don't want to insult people who actually have been tested and have it but I definitely have something that makes me struggle to focus but But filmmaking allowed me to, like, for once, my attention was completely wrapped, you know? And so it was an impulse. I just kept creating. I kept figuring out ways to put myself in situations where I could continue creating. So applying to grants, residencies, teaching to make a little living. And I was moving every two years in New York. I was in New York for 13 years. I just left New York in the past three years,

but I was moving. So I didn't have like stable housing, but I still felt compelled to make something. So when you're pitching Nanny, are people getting it? Is it hard? Is it scraping for every last dollar? When I was? Yeah. What was it like? Well, okay, I'll go back. I'll say the sentence of it all really catalyzed a lot and really created a shorthand in these rooms where people don't necessarily hear you when you talk. They don't necessarily see if you

have a deck or a lookbook. It's not translating. It's kind of like a speed dating process sometimes. And you can literally see their eyes glaze over. But once you have the stamp of... And I know the listeners are going to be like, yeah, but how many of us get that stamp? It was a process for me. This wasn't a situation where Sundance scooped me up right out of film school. So it looks different for everyone, but I made a short call suicide by sunlight that one was able to be made because I won a grant through Tribeca film Institute through a grant with Chanel called through her lens that nominates a bunch of women team, women directing teams to submit a short film concept. And so you would win around 100k.

The number has changed over the years, but it's during my year, it was around 100k. And I was like, if I could win 100k to make a short, first of all, it hurt my feelings to have to do that. Like I was like, can I make a micro budget feature in somebody's backyard? No, no, not in New York. So I wrote something that was a microcosm of a bigger piece that I had been marinating on, which is my vampire world, black vampire world that I've been marinating on. But they were onto me because they're really smart. And they were like, this feels like a proof of concept and not necessarily a short film because a lot of people don't realize proof of concept doesn't always mean

like a piece of it. It means a self-contained world that can stand on its own that speaks to the larger world that you've been thinking about. So I was challenged to write a short film that felt like its own thing that still spoke to this bigger world that I had way more material already on the page for. And then made the short with my producing partner, Nakia, got into Sundance in 2019 in the midnight section. And then I was ready to go with Nanny because I had been stacking projects over those years. So I wasn't just making shorts. I wasn't just surviving New York. I wasn't just teaching. I was outlining a feature here.

I was creating a series Bible here. So I was stacking. So by the time I was ready to go, I had other stuff ready to go. Did anything surprise you by a feature film production that you weren't expecting? Well, I mean, we're shooting in a pandemic, you know, we're shooting in COVID. Uh, I think that it is amazing that I'm able to have this much fortitude for my first feature. Cause had I made this prior to COVID, I would have thought things were a lot easier than they are. But once you make a feature in this climate, especially in a city like New York at the peak, we shot at the peak

of COVID last summer and shot for 27 days and didn't get a positive COVID case in zone A, which is the zone that shuts down your production until the 26th day. It's astronomically harder to make a feature or anything in this climate because you are at the mercy of your crew and your cast to not catch COVID and not get shut down because some production can afford to get shut down and go back up and a lot can't. Once you're down, you're down. So I would say that's the hardest thing to navigate is the anxiety of the pandemic and how it impacts your money. And you have a 30% additional contingency towards your budget for PPE, for the COVID department, keeping your set safe. So now budgets that you could get away with and make like put everything on the screen a few years ago everything is can't always go on the screen now it has to go

towards covid process so those are the two most challenging element yeah i've heard it's significantly harder and significantly more expensive especially especially I'm sure when you were, when you were filming. Um, yeah. How about the balance between a kind of commercial appeal and personal expression? Cause you're,

you know, you're working in genre. There are, Nanny has elements of thriller horror, but it's not pure, right? It's not jump scares. It's not,

I don't know what pure is. I literally just, I literally, and i say that rhetorically yeah um and i don't mean it in a derogative fashion i know you don't i know you don't but i will say that this is something that has surfaced since since distribution you know and so i know what connotations Blumhouse brings I was well aware of that but we were one of the few films in competition at Sundance that went in with no distribution and we were one even winning the grand jury prize was not a given for distribution. My financing partners still had to pound the pavement to sell Nanny. And Blumhouse and Amazon were brave enough to take it on as something that was a little more cross-genre. And so I would be remiss to not mention that I knew I was hesitant. Like I had some hesitation because Blumhouse, not only is it more their work thus far, they have a few things that really speak to what Nanny has done. I think

the Invisible Man is really interesting and a lot of their work, but it's also the demographic that really they appeal to is a lot of white film bros you know it's a lot of like i need a jump scare every five to ten minutes i need these very formulaic but paint by the numbers horror elements so i knew what i knew what we were walking into and i'm still navigating that conversation um but you have films like the lodge and you have films like the witch and you have films like The Lodge and you have films like The Witch and you have films like Suspiria and you have Rosemary's. There's so many elevated, slow burn, folk tale horrors that are a subgenre of the horror genre that allowed me to make Nanny. I'm curious about how you, what was basically like, how did you leverage the success, winning the grand jury prize, selling the film, getting distribution at a high level? Did you know exactly what you wanted to do in the immediate aftermath of that? Did you have like a, I know you, you don't, you didn't necessarily, um, venerate Hollywood,

but it does feel like you are now going through a classical kind of experience, you know, hit Sundance movie, a little smaller, you'll get some more money for what would be perceived to be a more commercial project next. Like, did you have that mapped out? Did you find yourself getting sucked into the system a little bit? What's it been like? You're asking really good questions around what it's like now, you know, to be a filmmaker who's being propelled from an indie film to what the industry is actively going through. I had my team to help me.

So, so the short film suicide by sunlight that premiered at Sundance in 2019 helped me to get my first, my agent who was at the time at paradigm and he him coming on board a couple of other people coming on board really helped me to navigate start navigating the business side of things my lawyer is someone i knew from film school but finally i had traction that felt like i could actually employ him um as opposed to just lean on him as a confidant, an entertainment lawyer who's now really risen up the ranks. So one building horizontally allowed me, like being open to up and coming agents and up and coming lawyers at the time, allowed me to build a team that I trusted. And so once we went to Sundance with the short and

the nanny, we sold nanny. We had already started talking about strategy some time ago. Like the beauty of my team and why I stick with the people I've stuck with at M88 and CAA and my lawyer, Andre De Roche is because they believe in me in the way that my parents believed in me. So you always want a team who is talking about the vision immediately, not waiting for you to win the grand jury prize, not waiting for you to win a pitch, a big pitch. You want to have a team who is already mapping out the inevitable. They see it as an inevitability. And so at every step of the process, once I got a team I trust,

we've been navigating. We've just been trying to one-up ourselves with each project that we're stacking. And I trust them as much as you can trust people in this industry. Are you in production right now? No, I'm in revision mode. I'm in writing mode. And how is that going for you? I'm still doing this rollout. I feel like I haven't stopped talking about nannies since January, which is crazy to see the new class. You know, it's amazing to see. It doesn't feel like it's been a year. Like I just, I'm still in three different time zones. We did so many cities this year because of, because Amazon and Blumhouse poured resources into the rollout. And so now that it's streaming as of the last two days, it's like, man, I, it's a whole other life. to even process or be present in just from Sundance. So I'm breathless still. I'm still

doing interviews, obviously. I'm still like we got nominated for someone to watch award at the Spirit Awards. And so there's stuff coming in the spring that is still very Nanny related, and I'm still expected to promote Nanny, but I'm definitely straddling being present with Nanny and being like doing a pass of a script someone else wrote, co-writing an original script and waiting for a writer to do a draft, her draft of the script so we can be in prep. Like, I think the key is always to understand that you're going to have multiple projects simultaneously in different stages. And how do you navigate that and then i'm going back i'm gonna teach in this i've been on sabbatical i'm gonna go back to teaching oh wow george mason

this i was gonna ask you i mean we can make this kind of the last thing before we wrap up but i was gonna ask you like what your perception was of students in 2022 about movies the future of movies you know like we talk on this show all the time obviously about the complicated state that movies are in your film is being distributed on amazon you know streaming is an issue can i ask how old you are i'm 40 how old do i look you're lying i am not lying i'm just very pale well you know what i also can't see so let me not like give you know what? I also can't see. So let me not like give you props. I'm also blind.

If we were face to face, you would not be surprised. We're contemporaries. You have a very young spirit. I thought you were like, I was, the only reason I asked is because you seem very tapped into like the anxiety of my students who are like Gen Z, early twenties, mid twenties, a few older film students but

mostly around that age now at the collegiate level you're asking good questions i just spoke to to nyu i just went back to nyu grad and spoke to like the current class and did a did a screening of nanny and i can feel i can feel the anxiety it's so palpable. And the desire for mental health support. That's one thing I'm really noticing, whether students are being expository about it, or it's hidden in the subtext of the way that they're asking questions and what they're asking. I got a lot of questions about like, how do stay strong how do you keep going how do you create boundaries you know and i wasn't expecting nyu students are usually the students who are like what was your budget how many days did you shoot what camera did you shoot and when we were in our

20s no one was ever making space for that kind of conversation i don't remember anybody ever asking me how my mental health was when i was 22 that's's a plus, right? I mean, that's a silver lining. It's a silver lining. And I will say that that is the silver lining. Like I want to linger in the positive is that people are being, students seem to be a lot more vocal about what they need in order to thrive. Whereas I think when, you know, when we were there, when I was, they also asked me like, how did I survive NYU, essentially? Because I think, like, you started this with, you listed all the obstacles against me. Like, we just saw that art, that NYMAG write-up about Nepo babies.

Like, that's a big conversation right now. I never, there's a parable about the centipede. Like, a monkey and a centipede in the forest. And the monkey sees the centipede for the first time. And it's like, how do you walk with all those legs? And the centipede for the first time actually takes a look at their legs. And now their legs start tangling up as it's walking. And I think I've survived these microcosms of patriarchy and white supremacy for so long. I've been in predominantly white spaces since middle school. I learned to clock in and clock out, to really see it as a microcosm

of capitalism that I would eventually have to navigate as an adult. But I know that everyone doesn't have that luxury. I was able to go back home to a very culturally rich background affirming home with two really smart parents who even though we didn't have a lot of money I had an abundance of love and support and I think that's a variable that we don't talk about enough you know so they're going through it I have a lot of empathy i know you talked to some professors especially old i'm one of the younger professors and i think some older professors don't have as much compassion i think that they consider them lazy and entitled but i feel really bad for them because it was hard enough to be that age and now they're really isolated from each other and

alienated and and and can't read a room and emotional intelligence is low because everything is over the screen, but you need these skills to be able to be an effective director. You need to be able to feel what someone is feeling and have empathy and, and read their body language, you know? So I think we're losing some of that. That feels very wise and empathetic

nikki we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen have you seen anything that you've liked oh this shit decision to leave yeah what did you love about you listen i'm obsessed with park chanuk i have to give that disclaimer so i did even me knowing how good he is i went in thinking ah maybe this one is the hype you know maybe this one is the one where he dials it in i was so happy i was literally on a flight to uh to lagos to nigeria with nanny me and anna my lead and i was his his ability to to create these transitions that utilize soundscape like really jarring uh loud glaring sound and then you cut and we're immediately immersed in silence

his ability to be really creative about match cuts like are we zooming into someone's pupil that turns into a light, you know, in the next scene? His he hones in on the details. I think that part of the reason I love Park Chanuk is I think if we're both sitting in a room, we hone in on the same things. Like I hone in on people picking the skin off their thumb or a guy to my left who feels like he's on a first date because his right knee is just bouncing and he's trying to maintain like it's sensory overload for me at all times and when i watch his films i feel seen in that way i think that um he does longing and love really well as opposed to like everything needing to be consummated that tension i could keep going i mean it's fitting the director who preceded you on this show in the last episode was director park so you had him part of a lineage yeah it's great and the other thing about that movie too which i love and i'm sure you'll understand is it's maybe like the first good movie about smartphones that i've ever seen like the first interesting use and who

would think that someone of his generation would be the one to master it right so so so clever um oh thank you so much for being on the show this was wonderful listen i i dragged myself from the meal i was cooking and i was like oh i'm sorry excuse my curse i i it slipped my mind and then you you reinvigorated. So I appreciate you. You woke me wide up. I'm happy to hear that. Congrats on that. And thanks again. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Thanks to Niki Atujusu and to our producer, Pabby Wagner for his work on this episode. Later this week, Joanna Robinson will join us to discuss women talking and reassess our best Picture Power Rankings. We will see you then.