The Big Picture - The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 1 - 'The Social Network’

Episode Date: December 31, 2025

Sean and Amanda return to continue their yearlong project of listing the 25 best movies of the 21st century so far. Today, they discuss David Fincher’s ‘The Social Network,’ the era defining study of the Internet. They make the claim that this is their generation’s ‘Citizen Kane,’ explain why it is a comfort movie about everything that is horrible, and crown Jesse Eisenberg for delivering one of the defining performances of the century. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producers: Jack Sanders and Jacob Cornett Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is 25 for 25. A big picture special conversation show about the social network. You know, you really don't need a forensics team to get to the bottom of this. If you guys were the inventors of Facebook, you'd have invented Facebook. here we are we come to the end we come to the end of this project we come to this place for magic well maybe not this specific place we come to the movies for magic and this is a magical movie that we're talking about today the number one movie on our countdown there was never really any doubt that this was going to be the number one movie right it was not discussed i think we'll

be airing the selection special later this week that we recorded in march and i don't recall any back and forth about whether this should move from the spot. It was slotted in at number one and there it stayed. It has been a collective favorite of this podcast since we've been doing it. It's where we meet, where our tastes meet. And it is also an astonishing and like increasingly underappreciated film of our generation about the world. that we live in and are going to continue living in. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie there's that last minute scramble to make it all

come together? From gifts to hosting essentials, Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now. So we've been saying that the final three films in the list are this trilogy about America and the America that we had and the America that we were and then the America that we are in and we'll continue to be in today. And the movie in its construction and its intention wants to show you that. It's a character study of a guy who's a ruthless creator, builder, builder, innovator, monster. And it knows that it's showing us something about what could happen.

But I don't know if it even really knew how much foresight it was going to eventually have to our culture. But let's talk about it now. So it's, of course, directed by David Fincher with a script from Aaron Sorkin. This is based on the accidental billionaires by Ben Mesrich, though much of this film was written before apparently Aaron Sorkin even got a look at the book. It is, of course, a true story. It's produced by Scott Rudin, which is notable here. In our notes, we've got that Scott Rudin produced six movies on 25 for 25. And he represented a very specific thing about American filmmaking and utors and a certain

kind of mainstream, serious adult filmmaking. And you can make the case that this is the pinnacle of that in the last 25 years. The film stars Jesse Eisenberg, Andrew Garfield, Justin Timberlake, Army Hammer, and Max Mangela. You know, music by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross. Yeah. Suspect we'll get into that a little bit. discussion, it made $225 million on a $40 million budget. It is exactly 120 minutes. It's so beautiful. A clean two hours. It is not the only thing that is clean about this movie. One of the

most you can eat off the floor movies ever made. It is a Swiss watch. Yes, truly. A filmmaking design. The movie premiered at the New York Film Festival in 2010, and I was at the premier screening of this movie. Yes. And I levitated at the conclusion of this movie. So, you know, I think most people know this, but as Harvard student Mark Zuckerberg creates the social networking site that would become known as Facebook, he is sued by the twins who claimed he stole their idea and by the co-founder who was later squeezed out of the business. That's the plot of the movie. I think it's a fairly accurate representation of what the film is tracking. This kind of twin betrayal that Mark Zuckerberg enacts upon these people and the ways in which that illuminates really what is underneath the rise of the. tech bro, and the way that social media has infected our souls, and the ways in which we have

been kind of disemboweled emotionally by a lot of what these people built over the last 25 years. So, I say to you, why did this movie make our list? It is our generation Citizen Kane, and in a pretty literal sense, which it is that it is about a media tech mogul of sorts who builds something and takes over. the world, um, while alienating everyone around him and ends up at the very end of the film sitting there searching for a like a piece of connection that represents maybe the shell of something that he wants had. I mean, there is an actual structural and textual relationship to it. It is also, um, like a deft virtuastic cinema like filmmaking exercise from Fincher that I think

we sometimes undersell the amount of craft that goes into this because it is people talking in rooms and it is a very talky Aaron Sorkin script, which is another reason that it's on this list. It's the best of Aaron's working. And it is also about, as you said, the way that Silicon Valley and the internet and the tech world took over our. way of life and exposed something about not just the institutions that we had, but the institutions that are coming and are taking over. And most chilling to me, like the thoughtlessness behind all of it, that there is, this is a machine of a movie and this is about machines. And, you know, Aaron Sorkin writes all his version of Rosebud stuff as much as he can in it, but it is really about a bunch of men who are not thinking about what they're doing until it's too late. And even then, do they have the capacity to think about it? And it does continually feel like we are living in the consequences of a bunch of people in Adida slides

who just didn't consider anything. Yeah, I think that's definitely true. And there's something even more going on beyond that, which is that their motivations for making a lot of lot of these choices, some of which are kind of constructed in the story, but we can assume have some basis in reality, which is that these were very thin-skinned and capricious people. You know, they were like all people. They, you know, they were reacting to what just happened to them, or they were reacting to the way that they feared that the world saw them, and that they made a lot of choices to regain a kind of power in the best way that they knew how. In the case of Mark Zuckerberg, it was coding. It was figuring out a way to build something that he understood

in a way nobody else did and that that was his way to exert power over the world over his social circle over the girl who broke his heart it's interesting that Sorkin uses a lot of

really conventional storytelling strategies that he like kind of is inventing to make the conceit of the creation of Facebook makes sense in a movie going structure but it never feels like dishonest you know Like the entire Erica Albright character, who is an invention or who is a kind of a composite of a series of encounters that Zuckerberg had, that character is not real, but it feels authentic.

And it feels like the pettiness that we've seen exposed in Mark Zuckerberg over not just this period of time, but in the last 10 years is really revelatory and insightful. And I'm a fan of Aaron Sorkins, but I feel at times I can feel his hands on the wheel of a story. This is the rare case where the meeting point between Fincher's style and Sorkin's, you know, strong writing and point of view, in addition to the fact that the story, I think, really can support this kind of shaping makes this a very special case of docudrama that is also mass allegory. It's like this is a story about everything that happened and we're using these very real people as a portal into it. And I continue to be amazed by the way in which it was still correct. You know, like, a lot of movies are beautiful and they move you and they reveal something true about our lives or they thrill us and they make us excited. This movie is right. And it's unusual for a movie to be so right about something.

And that doesn't make it great unto itself because there's a lot of other things that we can talk about that we really like about it. But I got chills at the end of the movie again watching it last night. just thinking about that kind of like sad, lonely guy who's like, I'll show you. Right. And the I'll show you quality of life right now that just sucks every day. That it's just so unpleasant to watch people just score settling at all times. Yeah. This is kind of one of the ultimate score settling movies.

And then what do you get at the end of it? But, you know, you get your money, I guess. Yeah. You get baby you're a rich man, which is still, just, you know, one of the great, one of the great music cues after an amazing score. I was taken during my rewatch, which is like the thousandth time I've rewatched this movie. You know, I saved it. It's got to be pretty high on both of our lists of rewatchability. Yeah, and I like saved it for a treat after I'd done all my other work.

And I was like, okay, now I get to watch like my, it is, it is a comfort movie about how everything is horrible. And, you know, you mentioned that it's Fenture and Sorkin to film, you know, a filmmaker and a screenwriter who we love independently. coming together, the sum is greater, you know, the sum is greater than the parts in this particular case, or rather they bring out the best in each other. And I can be a mark for Sorkin's, you know, sentimental streak, his cutiness. Even like, he usually tries to find the heart in anything, including, I guess, like, maybe Mitt Romney, like saving the presidency or whatever that was, you know? No, his sense of musical theater, right? Yes. And it's, and it's, and, and it can be a weakness. And Fincher, like, just absolutely eradicates that. And there are moments

of, you know, like softness or almost sincerity. But this is a mean movie. And I was struck by how mean it is when I, which is, you know, what we like about Fincher. That's where we come together. And so it's funny that it's a comfort watch. And then like all of the, the small character observations and small moments of of pettiness and revenge. And I was thinking about, you know, the weird stunt that Mark Zuckerberg pulls on an investor with Sean Parker's help, you know, he goes in the bathrobe. And then I'd forgotten that that results in the guy being so impressed that he invests more money. And you're just like, wow, we really do just live among, you know, tiny, petulant men with too much money who are, who, who,

are just accidentally designing how we live our lives while blogging about it. It is the coldness and the impulsive ickiness that is revealed that just shapes how we speak to each other now. Pretty depressing. It is. And it's so unusual that a movie like this just creates such an ecstatic sensation. because to your point you know I don't think that Jesse Eisenberg

is the first thing that people think about when they think about this movie I think about like the power of the story that this like steam engine that is like moving through the way that the real world kind of reflects some of the things just what role Facebook has played in our lives

in the last 25 years I think we think about all those things Jesse Eisenberg is the absolute center of this movie he is the ticking clock of the movie he's deeply unlikable You said mean, he is, he's like wounded but always protecting himself, always biting back, always ready with a snide response to whatever is shared with him. Even in moments when he lets us see that he feels he may have made a mistake, particularly that incredible confrontation with Eduardo near the end of the film, where you can read on Eisenberg's face like, we've gone too far. the fact that the movie just sits with him the whole time

it never like breaks back for oh I hope Erica is okay let's spend 20 minutes with her or you know actually like we don't really spend very much time with Eduardo when he's just being Eduardo it's always about Eduardo in relationship to Mark and the fact that the movie works while you're spending all this time with the person that we do not like and we do not think it's a nice person

and we can't even the movie doesn't go out of its way to psychologize him you know I was I I was thinking about, like, why is this Mark Zuckerberg in this movie the way that he is? And it's not, it kind of dispenses with his trauma or his, you know, anxiety or his resentments. It's a really interesting choice. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about in relationship to our conversation about there will be blood, which makes a similar choice of, I mean, and that is even more opaque. And, you know, they even have the character saying, like, I don't, you know, I don't like to talk about that or I don't like to remember these things. But, you know, this script does have a pretty, like, classical scorned guy structure.

And it, you know, comes back to even, like, it has the Rashida Jones character, which, you know, like, not every casting can be right. But that's okay. I think that's more an issue of the character than the casting, but, you know. It's true. One of my lawyer friends was like, there is no way a second year associate is, like, an expert in voir dire. But anyway, you know, listen, sometimes you need exposition. Even perfect things have flaws. ask any diamond jeweler.

So, but, you know, she has the callback. You're not an asshole. You're just trying so hard to be one. So there is within the text like a, oh, you know, a facile like, oh, he started Facebook because this girl was like mean to him and he got drunk. But that's not actually what's happening in the film and in the character at all. And they don't explore what makes this person unable to hold his tongue or say the right thing or or do. the right you know make the admirable choice ever and every time he gets close to it and you're like every time you think oh well he has a point or like oh the like winkle vibe you know like

yeah they do suck yeah like learn to code you know like if you like 40 you have an idea it's not worth anything if you can't do it but then um at every as soon as you get to that place the film like and eisenberg just pulls it away from you and you're like oh no actually there's like something going on with you. And I don't know what it is, but you just can't, you cannot talk to people. You can't figure it out. Yes, it is relentlessly bitter in a way that is, I find really admirable. Like, I really, you know, we talked about, I talked about Eddington a bunch this year. And I'm just like, I'm so in awe of filmmakers who are so unafraid to push away the audience to make its point. This has so many things about it that are easy to kind of grab onto and

enjoy, though, that it makes it really distinct and really rare in that way. But I, you're right on. And over the years, we've heard this levied against the movie, which is like, oh, this guy who got like his heartbroken led to the creation of Facebook. It's like, no. In that first scene, he's a sour narcissist. He was already that guy. It's not as though he became that guy because Erica broke his heart. Maybe it activated something ugly in him. But he was already bent out of shape about who he wasn't and how to get to the next place in his life and what he deserves.

Rowing crew. Yeah, all that stuff. All of these, like, petty resentments or frustrations. about your lot in life that lead to with this superpower that is in this film coding but in life the access to

developed new kinds of developed power right like that's really what this is about is like who are all these fucking goals who are not content with a modest life and will do anything to step on people and hurt them so they can get more that's what the movie is really about

and it's so incendiary in the way that it's communicating that and so fascinating I totally agree with the way that you're framing it as Sorkin and Fincher kind of extinguishing what it can sometimes be unpleasant or like the sort of like the small allergies that I have to either of their works which is that sometimes Fincher is so ice that you don't feel like there's a person inside of the movie and sometimes Sorkin is so like bibbidi-bobbity with things and I'm like what is this guy like why is this guy such a goof and it's a really good to description. And they do cancel those things out in each other, you know? And they're both at really

interesting times in their careers, too. Like, I see this very much as Fincher's, like, kind of second act in the middle of his real golden period where he's coming off of this huge acclaim for the Curious Case of Benjamin Button. A movie that, like, was very successful, got a lot of Oscar nominations, but maybe was like a bit of a left turn for him. And a, like, a real mastery of form movie, but him, like, kind of reaching for that emotion that. Yeah. He maybe isn't super access, you can't access that closely as a filmmaker. Right.

And, you know, this is... It's also a movie about his dad, so it's like a whole thing. Yes, yes. Well, one of the movies about his dad. That's right. Well, they're all movies about our dad. Sure. We know that.

We've learned that more and more in 2025 as well. And then Sorkin is also at a really interesting stage of his career. Like, I guess he's made Charlie Wilson's War. It's in the aftermath of the West Wing. He is certainly considered one of the great screenwriters in Hollywood. and dramatist but maybe hasn't fully

engaged I'm the best alive and there is some it's weird because this movie is such an assignment movie for both of them it's such a like there's this book coming out

do you guys want to make it we should say in addition to Scott Rudin Mike DeLuca also one of the producers of this movie Kevin Spacey also a producer of this movie this is during the

Amy Pascal era at Sony when a lot of movies like this were being pushed to the And, you know, it's like, it's a hot news story that we got, that we're turning into Right. An exciting film from Made for Adults. It feels like a total relic. I don't, what, like, what's the comp right now?

What's the comp in the last 10 years of a movie like this that was successful? I mean, they're trying to make it again with the social reckoning, which I just, I feel quite queasy about. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think we both know where we stand on that. I think if it was directed by David Finch, I would be incredibly open-minded. Absolutely.

Because the story is still resonant. Yeah, but even there, it's also, you know, no Fincher and no Zuckerberg. Yeah. And I guess, I know Andrew Garfield, because this story has moved on. And I do think Andrew Garfield is also essential to this. There are kind of, you know, there are the twin betrayals, and then there are also the angel and the devil on Mark Zuckerberg's shoulder. Eduardo Savarin and then Sean Barker, as played by Justin Timberlake.

incredible casting you know you again he's excellent in the movie you win some you lose some yeah but um the Eduardo character is is the heart is the sorkin

and but because it's a fincher movie like he still is kind of a screw up and he makes you know bad decisions and what happens happens but I do think that that's without Garfield you don't it is it's ice cold you don't have anyone to relate to

anyone to at least empathize with if you're not totally rooting for him because, like, why didn't you just go to Silicon Valley, you know, instead of staying in New York and pounding the pavement? And, like, obviously, advertising was not the right. You know, he's wrong, but you still root for him. So. He's just, he's vulnerable in a world of invulnerable dicks. He's somebody who you can feel, Garfield's a very empathetic actor. He's an actor who always wears his heart on his sleeve in movies.

And because you can feel how he's feeling, you want to be with Eduardo. you know, in the grand scheme of things, is Edwardo a hero of our times? No, he's like another tech guy. You've got a huge amount of money. Huge amount of money. And his name restored to the mastiff. Yes.

Garfield also brings, like, some warmth to what is otherwise, like a very muted movie. And it's just some highs. I mean, you know, Chris loves to do, Mark! But, like, you need someone loud. You need something, like, to fight against, or otherwise it does become. sort of inert.

Yeah, I think he just has, like, access to his feelings. The moment when Brenda Song's character recognizes him at the speech, and he realizes what the creation of Facebook will mean for him, which is, like, he's going to get that ego boost and that sense of being seen that, like, the fact that that's just not enough for Mark, like, that doesn't convey in the way that it would for most 21-year-old guys where they're like, damn, Brenda's song is interested in what I have to say about anything, which would be very powerful for most people. Mark Zuckerberg is on another path.

He's on a war path that is much more disturbing. And who knows if that's accurate to what was going on at that time, we can't really say. But the movie conveys that really well. And I agree. Herfield is really, really special. I didn't have a huge relation to him as an actor when I saw this movie. It's another example of Fincher kind of plucking somebody and being like, here, think about this. They're really special.

Eisenberg's kind of the opposite. Eisenberg in 2010 is coming off of Zoninger. Lombiland and Adventureland. And is a very rare kind of actor. It feels like an actor who would have been very famous in the 1970s. You know, a lot of hallmarks of Dustin Hoffman and Elliot Gould and Robert Duvall,

a kind of like handsome character actor who can carry a movie on his shoulders. But I was just trying to think of like who were the other actors that would even are like in this league? You know, guys who are now, you know, they're roughly our age that would have been up for this part

that you would have said like, okay, they could carry the movie. It's a funky list that I made. Yeah, and they're all too charismatic. You know, like, Eisenberg, Jesse Eisenberg is, like, very charismatic. I've seen the Now You See Me Films, and I've seen him, like, thinking, you know, the social media managers on the, um, on, like, his press tours. But he can turn it off. None of the people you wrote down here with the, like, even if when Jake Gillenhold turns it off, he's, there's, like, there's, like, anti-creas.

Prisma going? Well, he's, so I'll read the names that we can kind of talk to her very briefly just because I thought it was an interesting exercise. I mean, guys who are roughly between 40 and 45 right now, Jake Gyllenhaal, John Krasinski, Ryan Gosling, Rami Mollick, Eddie Redmayne, Joseph Gordon-Levitt. You know, these are, that's kind of the zone of the type of actor that we're looking for now. Jake Gyllenhaal is jacked.

John Krasinski is 6'4. Right. Not all of this makes sense, but just trying to think about who could carry a movie like this. There aren't a lot of actors. And if you don't get Mark Zuckerberg right, the movie doesn't work at all. No. So I think that alone is a fascinating feat. You know, you could see it with Eddie Redmayne. It's not impossible to imagine the movie. It just wouldn't work very well. I... It would be too emotional. Like his, you know, he does all the things with his big eyes. And you're just like, okay, you're sad, we know. You just want to connect with

people. And that's the thing, is that, like, Mark Zuckerberg, as played by Jesse Eisenberg, sort of, I don't know if he actually wants to connect with people or he wants the approval, which is different than actually opening himself up to anyone. I think he, I don't, maybe this has been true of men for hundreds of years, but I think he's a very modern condition where he just wants to be told he's great. He wants to be told not only that he has value, but that he's great. And he can't really get anybody to tell him that or at least tell him in exactly the way that would make him happy and that we're meant to believe that that is what keeps motivating him. And you look at the way that Facebook has grown over time. This movie, the movie ends with this grace note about

how Facebook is now worth $25 billion. Do you know what Facebook's market cap is right now? No. I believe it's $1.16 trillion. Yeah. It's only 15 years ago this movie was made. Yeah. And that's how exponentially it has grown since then. So there's been something ceaseless about the path that they've been on, too, that I find really fascinating. Let's talk about the score. Many years ago, I described the score as the ultimate writing to music. When I was writing a movie column at The Ringer, I would always listen to this score while writing a column at midnight. And it was a very propulsive, strange, but you use the word comforting. And I found it comforting, too, felt like very safe and metronomic in its way.

it's very unusual for a movie like this. It sounds more like the score to a horror movie or maybe a very, like, tense thriller than a docky drama about college students. And the decision to bring on Reznor and Ross at the time felt like kind of novel. I don't recall if this is exactly their first score, but it's very early in their career.

And it breaks out. And they're now considered by some people to be the greatest composers in film right now. I mean, it is essential to this movie if you get this wrong. Because it drives so many of the like memorable set pieces, specifically the building facemash intercut with the final club party. And so, and you really get a portrait of Harvard and elitism and, you know, it's all coming together.

But it is just coding. Like, so if you don't have. that driving. And I was listening to it on the drive on the way here, and I was thinking, I guess in the way that the Matrix, like, visualized what the Internet sounds like, you know, and when you, or looks like, and you see the zeros and ones, and you're like, oh, that everything's green. This did, this is what the Internet sounds like now. It just kind of coined it.

And so just, and it is kind of literal when you listen to it that way. There are bleeps and bloops, you know? Totally. No, I mean, the Rezner casting is so inspired because. there's two tracks of his music. There's this one that is really kind of sad and plaintive and kind of like classically morose. Right, which is the opening theme, which... Hand covers bruise, which, you know, is like the plinking piano and there's like a real melancholy in a lot of his best songs.

But then also he's this like kind of techno-industrial electronic figure who is using synthesizers and computers to make music that is like a digitized heartbeat. And the movie also has this kind of propulsive club sound And the two things are colliding And what a perfect evocation of the weirdness of this movie Of like sad boys making powerful shit with technology That can then make you feel like alive And the whole idea of like being on the internet And constantly triggering these hits in your mind

That make you feel like keep going, keep going The serotonin blast that you get from going through these experiences You know clicking, I like that girl, I like that girl better That girl left right left right swipe Like all the feelings that the movie is so evokes so clearly, it's just an amazing idea. And I guess it's not surprising. And it's not surprising that someone like David Fincher would have good sense to be into nine inch nails and know that Resner could do something like this. But it works so, so, so well.

And it's sort of, it immediately became kind of a turning point in terms of music scores and a reference. And whatever came next in terms of people making interesting choices. or even, you know, whether it's going towards, you know, electronic styles or just doing something that you wouldn't expect, it's like, oh, they're kind of in the, like, Resner Ross mold. And it really did break through in a way that is, I guess, not surprising, but remarkable. I think you nailed it. It is a turning point in what we think film music can do. You know, it is so far away from, you know, James Newton Howard doing some.

And imagine how bad the social network would be if it would. were, you know, James Newton Howard. Yeah. I mean, it would just be like fine. It's the same thing with the Eisenberg question where there's just a series of really, really good choices. I am very amused always by the needle drops in the movie, which feel more like a Gen X filmmaker being like, here's a cool white striped song that I like that maybe these kids

were listening to in this bar in 2003. And then like the Dead Kennedys drop and the Zap drop. And like songs that just like, you know, 20 year olds hanging out in Palo Alto in 2000. 2004 we're probably not listening to. I don't think California Uber-Alice was like the kickoff to the launch of the Facebook team, but it says a lot, I think, about how that generation views these kids, you know,

and that there was like a misappropriation of the punk rock spirit of the generation that came before them. You know, that in the tech crusader mentality, you think you are like breaking the paradigm and breaking the system, when in fact you are just like fortifying the system with new tools. And again, I think the choice is,

in the movie are really, really smart to that extent. And also the fact that, like, there's always, like, an older guy who's right behind the scenes who's, like, actually making things happen. You know, we don't really spend any time with Peter Thiel in this movie, you know, but Peter Thiel is an engine of what transpires. I mean, it is, it does hit differently than it did in 2010 when you say, like, do you know who Peter Thiel is? Yeah, but the movie knows.

Who is that? The movie knows. Yeah. It's very powerful in the way that it associates, like, who really are the decisions. decision makers. And obviously, someone like Mark Zuckerberg has become the decision maker. But, you know, there's so many things about this that, like, haven't aged well, for lack of a better phrase, to borrow a rewatchable'sism. It's like Army Hammer. Yeah.

Produced by Kevin Spacey. You know, there's like a bunch of stuff in this. It's just like, ooh, gosh. I think, you know, we've learned more about Scott Rudin's behavior than we knew in 2020. Yeah. Yes. No, it's not great. It's not great. But it is also, you know, make what you know. I guess. And also there is something poetic, I guess, about, this is a movie about, you know, systems and all, like, all the guys behind the curtain

or reinventing the curtain and no one is behaving well. Yes. And, you know, it's, what does breaking something to improve it mean? It's a really, really good point. Yeah. I think that one of my takeaways watching it last night was that the idea of, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should really resonates and that I feel like that era is over. Like we're not in society at large. It's like there is no, there are not guardrails

really anymore. Yeah. In terms of what can be said, what can be done, what you can do at other people's expense. Right. There are no Gentleman of Harvard. Exactly. But even, you know, but even the idea of Gentleman of Harvard is played as ludicrous and ridiculous. And speaking of have canceled people, then they demand their meaning for the Harvard Code of Ethics in front of Larry Summers. Yes, exactly.

Who is the president? And who is such an asshole. I know. And it's assholes all the way down, right? Yes. Yes. And like it's a real takes one to no one kind of thing. And the fact that all of these people

populate this world, I think, tells you everything you need to know about what really is going on in this world. The gentleman of Harvard thing is really interesting. I would say, I don't have as much exposure to these institutions that you've had over the years. I'm curious for your insights on how they operate and how accurate they are because I think to the common consumer, pretty mistrustful, but.

Mistrustful of the institution or the portrayal on this. No, the institutions and the people who come out of them. Yeah, of course. But that feeling. that, like, my middle-class parents had when I was growing up, has been contorted and co-opted by American political leaders now about why you can't trust. Oh, I see.

You know, the elevated classes or the folks at these elite institutions. Yeah. This movie has, like, a slightly different attitude towards it. It is a very 2010 attitude toward it, which is, like, these people are all stuffed shirts and they don't actually do anything or make anything. Right. And, you know, and that it's handed down to them

and that the Winkle Vye call their dad's in-house lawyer. And there's a whole bit about, like, they are going through, like, the credentials. You know, the whole thing about the final clubs, which is, like, real. And, you know, the Porcelian is a real club. They all are. But the Mark Zuckerberg character listing, well, so-and-so was like this and so-and-so. It does it apt, and I think at least 2010 accurate reflection. of like the old world vibe of these places and Harvard in particular and the value that like the

gatekeeping that those those people in the final clubs and anyone who tries to get in Harvard and really like at least in 2010 what you thought you're paying for or what you thought that you were inheriting if you went to one of those places um so I think it's accurate and I think You know, the Larry Summers scene is perfect in many ways because like two entitled rich kids who get the meeting because of their dad and then are whining about the Harvard Code of Ethics and then the former Fed chair who is now stepping back for, you know, like everyone is just gross and ugly and connected in a way to things that you don't want to be connected. Yeah. And the idea that.

You know, there's like a friction in the movie where we do want this web of connectivity amongst this closed circuit of people to be broken. We do want to see it broken. We don't want all this power to be concentrated in this place. It feels like a very kind of ancient concept of like the Roman consuls are all gathered together and they're deciding the fate of the common people. However, careful what you wish for because the way it can be shattered can be, you know, society alter. I mean, that's what the face mash final club party, like, inner cut, is, to me, just like a real flex on a number of levels, including the actual, just, you know, the filmmaking, the cutting. But on, but thematically, on the one hand, you have this guy building a gross website to pick which girl is hotter and also, you know, hacking all of the quote unquote stealing things. I mean, who really cares, right?

but which which is part of the the fabric of the setup and on like and then you're cutting to all the girls being bust in to the club and you know showing off for these guys in backwards hats that's my only note about the accuracy of how these worlds are portrayed is like no one in those rooms is that attractive just just like for a note and I do also wonder whether they're wearing backwards hats but that's you think no one ever worn a backwards hat at Harvard? In the Phoenix? I don't know. But I just, it's a different type of bro that they're going for, but I could be wrong.

I don't think I would have fit in at Ithaca college. Like with their suit, I mean, like at the party. I'm sure they're wearing on their own time. I mean, that sequence does a really, really smart thing, which is that it shows you this fantasia of wealth and power where you watch the girls grinding and dancing and the guy's kind of ogling. And you see that like, this is the inside of the inside. side. Yeah. You know, this is the real skull and crossbones in 2010 or in 2003.

But then the party, it feels like, is literally interrupted by the introduction of the tools that these guys create. You know, that the conclusion of that sequence is someone's looking at a laptop and they're like, whoa, check this out. And then that is like a perfect metaphor for everything that happened to like multiple generations of people where they're just like, we no longer like augle girls and go to parties. We just like look at our phones and our laptops all the time.

Right. It's just such a smart idea, you know, but it's like, but like the fundamental problem is on change. It's just how we're doing it and who has the power. Well, intensified and worsened because there's no human interaction. I'm not saying it was good the way that like the elites control people, but. Sure. It's, I mean, it's arguable whether, you know, I as a young woman of college age when this was happening, I don't know whether I would rather be in the room at the Phoenix or on the website. I honestly don't know what's better for me in my development. Happily, I was neither. Well, I think that's another. important thing to note is that the three movies that are at the top of our list, I think, came

out of pretty critical developmental periods of our life. Yeah. And so the 25th hour is a movie that was released when I guess I was 21 and you were 19. And the social network was released when I was 28 and you were 26. Yeah. But the social network was the social network was released when I was 28 and you were 26. Yeah. But the period that it captures is the same period in which the 25th hour or 25th hour was released, which is very pivotal for us. Facebook was essentially just getting introduced in my junior and senior year of college. And I remember it taking off like a flash right after I got out of college. You were at an ivy.

So you must have gotten it early. Yeah, we did. Yeah. I had it my sophomore year. Okay. What was your experience with it? I mean, exactly what is portrayed. But I thought you wrote that the Dakota Johnson scene is not good.

But that's how life happened in 2004. I think her performance is good. I never woke up in bed with Sean Parker. I would like to state that for anyone listening at home. There's a critical flaw in the movie that many people have pointed out. And this girl would not have seen things in this fashion. And no human did. Sean Parker did not invent Facebook.

Sean Fanning invented Facebook. We knew this in 2001. You mean Napster. Sorry, Napster. Yeah. No one knew who Sean Parker was. You knew who Sean Parker was maybe if you read Forbes. Right.

Or you read Billboard. Sean Fanning was the kid. He was the Mark Zuckerberg of that story. So that scene, which is massive... Sean Parker invented Napster. Yes. Nice to meet you. Yes.

That's like a massive exposition dump that's queuing us up for this character. I just you don't need it I guess maybe you're revealing he has a proclivity for young girls which the movie also points back to a number of times throughout but that's the one sequence when I watch it

then you wouldn't get what was your what's your latestpreneur which is still one of my favorite lines of this movie I think she's quite charming you can make the case she's never been better than in this movie Is anyone majoring in French at Stanford? It's a really good question why go to Stanford for your French degree

It's also not the only young woman majoring in French in this movie because then the Oxford guy's daughter, he's like French literature, didn't know there was such a thing. So I guess one of Aaron Sorkin, like someone in Aaron Sorkin's life, who's a woman was majoring in French and he was upset about that. Right, what you know. Yeah. Yeah. Do we think Rashida Jones's character also majored in French while studying law, French law? The scene is just like, it's just funny. It feels a little bit outside of the energy of the rest of the movie.

And it is really riffing on Justin Timberlake's kind of turn-of-the-century celebrity. He is another figure who kind of rose to power in the midst of this Napster craze and then ultimately social media. And Justin Timberlake's not what he once was. He's not, he is understood socially and culturally in such a different way. In 2010, the world tour was still going in 2010. He was considered cool. I know this has got real like back-to-bed grandpa vibes, but just, you know. Justin Timberlake was cool.

He was corny. He was like a Disney kid. Is this? But he was a cool version of that. Was it the 2020 experience? Was this before? That was the beginning of the end. But this was before that.

Oh yeah. So this is like before mirror mirror. Oh, yeah. I think this is before Future Sex Love Sounds, right? Or maybe it's right around the same time? No, it can't be. Justin Timberlake albums. This is the logical conclusion.

No. No, you're right. You're right. 2006, my college experience. Future Sex, Love Sounds, 2020 experience is what, 2012? 2013. 2013. Okay, so, yeah, this is the pivot point.

And, again, you really have to credit Fincher for understanding, like, what was lurking beneath Justin Timberlake. But this movie has contempt for Sean Parker. I know. And does Justin Timberlake know the way in which David Fincher is reading into him so elegantly? I do not think so. It's amazing. It's an amazing choice.

Beautiful. Did Justin Timberlake meet anything to you, Jack? Not as much as it was for you guys But everything you said is perfectly put He Fincher weaponizes everything that is the worst About Justin Timberlake in this role, it's amazing And it's like he opened like the rest of our eyes And then, you know, out comes

All downhill from there, yeah I mean, he did a few other things that didn't really help him But it is a brilliant bit of casting I think there's great casting all the way Down the line in this movie that is really, really incredible What else? What else do you want to say about this movie that means so much to us into this show?

I mean, we've talked a lot about how prescient it was, how much it understands the world that we live in, and to some extent how it has lived on, but it's kind of hard to, I do feel that some of the younger listeners of this show, who weren't there,

don't understand kind of the instant cultural impact that this film had. I mean, obviously it made 200, $40 million, so that's good. Yes. But, you know, we talk a lot about films on this movie that are art for art's sake. And I think it's very important to keep making real art. And I also think the social network is incredible on a basic artistic level.

Everyone is doing their job perfectly. But we also like movies that find an audience that have... like a cultural moment like we are we are children of hollywood and so there is something that you know this movie was a huge success in the moment but it changed the way that we understood facebook it launched it changed the way we understood the internet um it it like the sociological impact of this movie is cool because you know movies still matter and then and so when when a film finds not just its audience but kind of it's its place in the culture that is significant.

Yeah, and I think for us specifically, it's a developmental stepstone. Like, it's just a time in your life where you're like, this is an adult examination of something that we experience as younger people, and that that tends to always make a deeper impact on us.

If we were 60 when the movie came out or 10 when the movie came out, it might not be number one on our list, even though we still would have huge admiration for Fincher and Sorkin and the like. This is kind of dipping into the legacy of the movie question, but there's a couple things that I wanted to talk through.

One, this movie is a massive breakthrough in digital filmmaking. I'm fond of films that are shot on film. I advocate for going to see movies projected on film. I think it's very important. I think some filmmakers are getting really deft and adept at digital photography in movies. Fincher's always been good.

And this is like a massive exploration of the different kinds of texture and feeling that you can get from digital. Now, this is a movie about the digital world. So it makes sense that in a movie like this, you would want to explore, I guess it's the red one is the camera that was used on this film. Jeff Cronoweth shot it and he shot a lot of Fincher's movies. But it is very dark, very intimate, very smooth. That can sometimes be like code for like gloppy or like AI enhanced or something.

In this particular case, it is porcelain. Like the movie is meant to be this smooth feeling, like running your hands over a Dell laptop in 2003, that you're meant to have this kind of like frictionless experience. That's kind of what the internet created. It created this idea of like convenience and ease and the false sense of connectivity that we believe we have when in fact, you know, what we really have is like division. We have like literally tools in front of us that are keeping us apart. But the use of digital makes all that makes sense. It makes all of it feel in a way that, like, it communicates at least to me that there's danger and so a lot of this stuff. But also it can look good and it can be really appealing. Yeah. And that's what draws us in. And it's not all great filmmakers can just pick up a new, you know, a new camera or digital and make it work.

And I can think of a lot of my favorite filmmakers who have tried, like, their digital. because it fit the era or the subject of the film and it doesn't, it doesn't look quite right. So this is, it's, to me it's clinical the way that it all looks and it's supposed to be sterile and, you know, and like unexamined and, and cut off from everybody else. It's like a colonoscopy, though. Like that's this clinical aspect of it. It's like it's really getting in there, you know? It's like, it is, everything is picture perfectly clear. Yeah.

Another point that I think you've made here is that is really smart about the legacy is the trailer. Yeah. So the trailer is unbelievable. It does introduce a convention. Yeah. What does the song? Remind me of the song choice. It's Radiohead.

It's Crete. Right, Crete. The children's choir cover of Creeb, which would in, I don't know if it was the very first example of that. There probably was something that came before it, but it launched. a thousand ships. I still remember where I was when I saw the trailer. Where were you? I was at the BuzzFeed offices where I worked briefly, the new ones.

I mean, there have been many since. And we just watched it on loop over and over again. And then I think like this was still the era where then you would just listen. I like listened to a children's choir singing radio. And I was like, I'm not really sure. And then people started doing all the mashups. They were like, oh, you can put a children's choir singing radio head. over anything and make it look, you know, meaningful or, like, important.

So this was, it was understood in real time as like, oh, we do this now. Let me ask you a question. Yeah. This is maybe a little penetrating, but I'm going to ask you anyway. Did you at any point in your life worry about having friends or enough friends or feeling socially like you were in a good place? At any point in my life? Yeah.

Yeah, certainly in high school, right? Don't, I mean. I'm asking you. Yeah, absolutely. But, and which is, I guess, pre-internet. And I think high school is particularly isolating for, well, I was going to say young women, but everyone. I know it's hard out here for the guys as well. And you don't know who your friends are supposed to be.

But there is such a performance embedded into our ideas. of what American high school should be and how you're supposed to fit into it and I went to a pretty like, quote unquote, traditional high school. So it was football and cheerleaders or you were going to be the, or you're going to do all your homework?

And I was like the homework girl. So I think, yes, in the sense that I was worried about like the outward perception of it all, which is a little bit because of high school and a little bit because of the age. I don't know if I was like, worried about amassing, like, friends on Facebook. Well, I mean, that's why I bring it up.

Yeah. Because the trailer is so propulsive and so impressive. And so, like, kind of inviting the way a thriller would be inviting. And it has this immortal tagline. You don't get to 500 million friends without making a few enemies, which is written in this white Helvetica text across Jesse Eisenberg's face on that poster, which is just an incredible movie poster as well. Again, this is like we used to be a proper country stuff, you know, we're like this

studios and the might that they had to work really hard to nail this stuff did make a difference but but everyone had stapler thrown at them so well among other things yes um i i pointed out because one thing that the movie really circles well that i don't think i really i don't think i intellectualized when we were going through it with the rise of social media was the idea of the friend request this film ends on a friend request the idea that you could ask someone will you be my friend digitally and await their response and the anxiety that that provoked in us and I think many people will most people will relate to what you described in high school I actually had a little bit more trouble in the first few months of college than they did in high

school in high school I always felt like I had a big group of people that I was friends with and in college I was like oh I have to like make an effort in a way that I don't really know how to but I think most people going through life you move to a new city you start a new job you know you you meet your partner's friends like there's kind of disorientation socially that that a lot of people feel at different stages of their life. This movie introduced like a new and very, not this movie, Facebook did, but this movie located a very dynamic and intense version of that. We don't have social media in quite the same way.

It literalizes the performance, right? It literalizes the perception and kind of makes the perception, the overriding experience. And, you know, now we have it and it's like Instagram versus real life and all of that stuff, which we all... That is the evolution of that thing. Yeah, which, like, you know, we all live by. And I, I obviously only, you know,

I still only post the cute happy pictures for my children. Yeah, but... There are no unhappy photos of my child. Why would I take an unhappy photo? I really thought I was going to get a crying baby at Santa this year, and I, like, wanted it. But I didn't... Oh, you got a good performance.

Yeah, well, I just, I think that the unhappy Santa photos are classic, too. They are. But in our life, you know, now you only ever see the smiling ones. It's true. But I think you're right that this era was a cementing of what maybe only existed in our heads or interpersonally. And then it was like written in ink, as Runei Mara says, like on the Internet. Yes. And took on a life of its own.

Yes. And for us, that was a big transition. I'm sorry, Jack, that's all you've ever known in life. We screwed up, you know. I did nothing. As one battle taught us, it's not what we wanted to hand down to you, but we're sorry and it's your turn. It's your time now, Jack. You got this, buddy.

All you got to do is destroy Facebook. Yeah. This is in many ways the most, like, go-to-bed grandpa podcast of all, but that's okay. It's our podcast. Well, I think it's helpful, like, as we get to the end of this list, to talk a bit about, like, the emotional forces that led to the creation of it. the list, you know, like, there's no good list and there's no bad list. It's a personal, it's personal choices. This is a movie that clicked for both of us. Two people who've really spent the bulk of their lives working on the internet and seeing the ways in which the internet can be incredibly creative and gratifying and exciting or even just like endorphin hitting.

Yeah. And also all the ways that can like make people feel bad and hurt them and put distance between them. And the illusion of access, the illusion of connectivity is so powerful and so wrong and yet I've told stories on this show many times that like some of my best friends including your husband and Chris Ryan I only know because of the internet. Like I would not have been connected to those people so like the power that the movie is expressing is real. It's just like used for evil. Yeah but also the movie does not really express or commit itself to any of the upsides of the internet. That's true. That's a very sorkid thing. I mean it is and it's

Even to the point where, you know, at some point, Mark Zuckerberg does get chastised for blogging. Because this is, Aaron Sorkin lived through all the West Wing message boards and all the sunset, you know, 2-60 message boards. And you know what? It's understandable. I get it. No one likes to be criticized. No one likes to be criticized in permanent ink on the internet. Right. That's not easy. It's not that the point is more that there is, the movie does understand that this kick the portal wide open. but everybody walked through in handcuffs. You know what I mean?

Just because you got in the door, it doesn't mean that you're free. And it's just a fascinating exploration of that. Whether or not the filmmakers projected all of this deep meaning onto the movie at the time in which they were making it, who knows, it pretty much doesn't matter at this point. The movie is eternal for us for all of these reasons.

And yet... It didn't, yeah, incredible segue. It did not win Best Picture. Yeah. Even though it was widely hailed as a masterpiece, Was a box office hit, felt chilling in the way that it summed up, all of these feelings that were just really rising to the surface in our culture. Eight nominations, three wins.

It won for Adapted Screenplay, Aaron Sorkin. It won for editing, Kirk Baxter and Angus Wall, who is one of the tightest, sharpest, like, sharpest, just, like, sexiest movies ever made because of that. Like, it is just gorgeously put together. And the two-hour, you know, there is a precision to it. Like, everything has to hit its mark exactly. Yes. For, like, super-organized type A people, this movie is fucking pornography.

And then Resner and Ross won for score, of course, which is a great win and a very cool win, you know? And, like, we give the Academy a lot of shit over the years about the dumb stuff that they do. And I'm about to give them shit about this one. But giving Resner and Ross the score win, that's awesome. That's really cool. That's a fairly progressive choice to your point about how it being like a turning point in film composition, film music composition. King speech wins best picture. I mean, this was tough. And Tom Hooper wins director over David Fincher. And David Fincher still does not have a best director Oscar or any Oscar. No, he does not have any Oscar.

It was bad. It was bad in the moment. It gets worse the further we get from it. Obviously, Harvey Weinstein played a massive role in that. And this was kind of one of the last, I think, major triumphs. Not the last. Not right. Of course, the artist comes immediately after this. What the fuck? I mean, things were bad. I mean, that's abominable to go.

Is it, were they in succession? I think they were in succession, King's Speech and the artist. I mean, that's just brutal. Anyhow, I think the Hooper win is really bad. Let's just look back at the Hooper win really quickly. The other nominees that year were Darren Aronofsky for Black Swan, David O'Russell for The Fighter, Fincher, and Joel and Ethan Cohn for True Grit. I mean, say what you will about any, the character of any of those four men who were nominated alongside Tom Hooper. They are bigger stars, more celebrated otors with huge careers.

Also, all these movies were big hits. Yeah. How the fuck did the King's Beach? What happened? How did this happen? I will never get over this. I will never get over it. From the moment it happened, I was like, how can we possibly live in these times?

There have been many of these over the years. I think we can talk about a couple of the most extraordinary and baffling choices. Most of them are ex post facto. Most of them are like, how green was my value over Citizen Kane? That's when we talk about all the time on the show. You called this. This is like Citizen Kane if he went on trial in the middle of the movie, right? That's what the social network is, right?

Where you get these deposition sequences where you get to explore the William Randolph, Herst-type character being interrogated by lawyers. Right. But How Green Was My Valley came from John Ford. It's a big, romantic, beautiful family epic. You kind of see it. Citizen Kane was not considered the greatest movie of all time when it was first released. Forrest Gump over Shawshank or Pulp Fiction, you know.

Right. It's a bad win. Yeah. It's a bad win. Right. I like Forrest Gump. I'm on the record about liking Forrest Gump. Right.

Pulp Fiction was massive in its time as well. But you could see it was like an edgier movie. right? It was a new form of filmmaking. It was Harvey Weinstein in an earlier era. It was a director who we didn't have a huge relationship to. Robert Zemeckis had already given us a lot of big movies and back to the future and so on and so forth. Dances with Wolves over Goodfellas. Goodfellas is a tough one. It is. You can see the case for it. But yeah. Right? American Western. Like ultimately uplifting or not uplifting but like heartful tale of the Or origins of this country, like a slightly more progressive bent on the stories that we saw set in the American West, with a sort of bona fide screen icon at the center of it, you know, writing, directing, doing all that. You could see it. You can see it. You can see it. You can see it. Yes. And you can still go back and look at dances with wolves and say there's a lot in this movie that is good. It's not good, fellas. You know, just like how Greenwood's My Valley is not citizen cane, but you can kind of see it. Even Shakespeare in love over saving private Ryan, even that you could say, Tom Stoppard's script

Really great performances There's something like About the kind of verve in that movie That is at least defensible to me Right You know Listen I always liked it And you know

With the release of Hamnet I'm like oh I really like it Yes and you can also say that Steven Spielberg already had his moment With Jurassic Park and Schindler's list And winning the Oscar And that all happened So the Academy was like

You know what we are going to zag on this Crash over Brokeback is just as bad. I'm not going to pretend like it's not. It's just as bad. Crash sucks. It sucked when it came out. Brokeback Mountain is a beautiful movie. It's probably like number 27 or 28 on our list.

It should have won. I think it's a borderline masterpiece. So I won't pretend like that one is as defensible because it's not. But all the way up until that point, and the King's Beach is not a bad film. It's just like not really anything interesting. Like it's fine. It's just like, it is that if you have Winston Churchill in your movie, you win an Oscar rule, which is really silly. But you win Best Director?

I don't, I don't defend it. Are you kidding me? You haven't even seen Tom Hooper's Les Miserables, okay? So you can't come to me and say that you understand the disgrace of Tom Hooper winning over David Fischer. Have I seen any Tom Hooper films since he defeated David Fincher? Do you know how close it is on In Hathaway's face when she's singing for her Oscar? I totally forgot. He directed cats.

Yeah. I, listen. It's not good. You know how many films he's made since then? Cats? Yeah. Zero. Zero.

Yeah. That was a tough one. How did this happen? How could we let this happen? I really, really don't know. I mean, it isn't an extension of how could we let Harvey Weinstein, you know, happen. And there are far, there are far graver things that Harvey Weinstein did. No, of course.

He's a monster. So it's, but it's, it's really bad. It's really bad. Um, okay, I'm sorry. I probably will have the energy to do that spiel for the rest of my life. That's good. Yeah. You got to channel things. I do believe in this film. You won't have earned it until you've sat through Tom Hooper's layman's rob. I just want to let you know. Some additional context for how crazy this, uh, this loss was for the social network. Okay. Um, only three films have ever swept the big four critics awards. Okay. Schindler's list, which did go on to win best picture. L.A. Confidential, which did not. Right. And the social network. now one battle after another

has it swept yeah that's right what are we waiting for New York film critics right Los Angeles film critics NBR and I don't believe the National Society of Film Critics has weighed in yet okay that will be announced on January 3rd interesting so we can find out very soon

whether or not it joins it and are there will be blood episode I quoted Manola Dargis's review at the time I'll quote her again here Mr. Fincher and Mr. Sorkin offer up a creation story for the digital age and something of a morality tale, one driven

by desire, marked by triumph, tainted by betrayal, and inspired by the new gospel, the geek shall inherit the earth. Manola always the best. Yeah, I think this came in at number 10 on the Times top 100.

And also number 10 on the readers. Are you surprised by that placement? No, again, I do think that it has been a little lost to time or underappreciated or people didn't connect with it in the way that we did. Where was Zodiac on those lists? Okay. So it did, it did top Zodiac. I mean, do you want to-

Don Girl is 64. Also just a phenomenal film. Yeah. What were you going to ask? Do you want to get into this over? Zodiac. This is the Fincher pick. Let's do that. Okay.

Do you want me to express my feelings first, or do you want to talk about the proposed trade? Oh, right. So a couple weeks ago, you said you would give me one battle over there will be blood if I gave you Zodiac over social network, which I thought was just two bad decisions. Okay. And I said absolutely not. It was a ripe fodder for a podcast, which we are now exploring. I thought it was an interesting idea. Yeah. I'll make the case for it.

Zodiac does not have Aaron Sorkin, and so it doesn't neatly tie up this series that we've done. And I think you're right to speak to twinned interests of ours. Zodiac does something, Zodiac is the master in the way that the social network is there will be blood. Yeah. Zodiac and that those two films that are the more mysterious explorations by filmmakers at turning points in their careers. you know there's something interesting about that

and Zodiac is a movie to me that is still unresolved not just in terms of the crime in the film but in terms of what obsession really does to us the social network is also a film about obsession this is a recurring theme for all of Fincher's work I think it is the movie that is the most representative of his work I think that's fair

and I'm like I'm very excited to watch it again but it's a different kind of watch than the social network watch that you were describing which I shared which I was like this is fun you know like

it's really enjoyable to just be yeah to be on the hang glider of this movie and to just be flying through in one hour and 56 minutes

the entire story of how everything came apart the Zodiac is longer more discursive it has way more characters it's a much bigger world it's more confusing more

it's upsetting in a different way. It is. And, you know, I can think of specific set pieces that are so messed up and they're like electrifyingly messed up so you're like, I can't believe you're doing this and now I feel really terrible. And that can happen all at once in broad daylight.

I just, I do feel that we already have a movie from one of our great male female filmmakers about how being obsessed in California, in a time that is not the present or the recent past can really fuck with you Yeah, and that film is called Mission Impossible Fallout.

I agree with you. I was offering to trade because I was like there's no way you can get away with There Will Be Blood and Zodiac. They're too similar in a way. Right, exactly. Yeah, they're too similar in terms of what they're trying to accomplish. I think...

And they came out within a month of each other. Right. And there will be blood is truer. Is your PTA pick, and that's your passion? Yes. So if we were going to do that, then there's no reason to do Zodiac as well. I agree. I understand it. It's the only other movie that I think was really genuinely contending for me. I agree that Gone Girl is very much in third place, and is a great movie that we love.

And I think is also a bit, still a bit misunderstood and incredibly clever and insightful about a lot of things in our culture and the way in which we consume and identify celebrity, what we share publicly about our relationship, This is what's really going on. It's an incredible movie about Ben Affleck, who is the patron saint of my half of this podcast. Yes. He's made a bunch of movies this century, though. You know, he has not been, you know, panic room, very slick, cool thriller that I love.

A curious case of Benjamin Button, a film I've always had a hard time getting into, to be honest with you. So that wasn't really under consideration. Girl with a Dragon tattoo. Awesome movie. Bangor. Awesome movie, great winter holiday movie,

underrated Christmas movie. A movie I like a lot of, A lot. A movie I would love to do on the rewatchables. All-time Anya movie? Absolutely. Among many other things. Mank? Yeah.

I love Mank. Yeah. Who doesn't like Mank? A lot of people. That's true. I think it's bad. Yeah. But Mank is also like, if Mank had been co-written with Aaron Sorkin, like you do

kind of wonder whether, because Mank is Fincher. Interesting thought. Mank is Fentcher trying to get into his more sentimental. side. But, you know, those are not muscles that he exercises that often. So what could they have done together? They never did reunite. You know, apparently a little bit of interesting creative tension between them

in the making of this movie. The killer, a movie I also love, that was not going to be a contender. And then next year, the Adventures of Cliff Booth. I'm open to it. Well, I think we have to be for a variety of reasons. That would be a curious choice. Recommend it if you like. I think Citizen Kane, we can leave it at that.

Yeah, yeah. I wrote down the Big Picture podcast. Yeah, if you like this pod, if you like the vile energy that we are giving each other every day, you'll probably, but in a rat-a-tat format. Right. You know, we're talking fast. Yeah. Everything's over. Everything's done, and we're just talking through it. We are talking through it. Potentially Luqua Gaudenino's artificial next year about Sam Altman.

Maybe. Who knows? Oh, wow. Well, I'd like to like it. Wow. Is that actually happening that movie? I think so, as far as I know. Who's playing Sam Malman? Andrew Garfield.

Andrew Garfield. Oh, yeah. Sheesh. That's the real sequel to the social network. Man, oh man. Well, that's it for the countdown. Yeah. I wanted to say thank you to Sam Bertwistle, who really helped us a lot in the construction of this list

and then putting together a lot of research, especially over the summer. Thanks for our producer Jack Sanders For his work on this episode And the entire series Which has been quite an undertaking for this show It may not seem that way hopefully Because there's a lot of ease of use With these episodes

But tacking on a third episode Virtually every week It was a choice that we made It was a choice that we made As you mentioned, the selection special We'll be airing later this week That is, I don't even know, is that conversation Like two hours? How long was it?

Jack? I think it's a touch maybe over two it's right around there was there screen sharing is that part of the final edit there is no screen sharing that was long gone

so we're just narrating the spreadsheet in real time yeah probably not very visually interesting yeah this is our last episode of 2025 yes

how are you feeling about that I'm ready to not look at my face and I would hope that other people also take a break from my face and yours but I'm great

to everyone for listening, right? Yes, and watching and seeing your face. I guess so. This has been a very big and at times challenging, but fun year for the show. We are very grateful for all the people who listen to the show, watch the show, go to the movies, engage with movie culture, think about what movies mean to them and why they matter so darn much to us. Buy plastic. I love the people who buy plastic and physical media. Do more of that in 2020. I love the people who watch movies and then go outside. Okay.

But it is true. We could not do this show. We wouldn't get to do this if it weren't people listening to it and caring about it and caring about movies. So thank you to all of you, truly. Thank you. Happy New Year. We'll see you with the movies.