The Big Picture - The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 12 - 'The Royal Tenenbaums’

Episode Date: September 17, 2025

Sean and Amanda return to continue their yearlong project of listing the 25 best movies of the 21st century so far. Today, they discuss Wes Anderson’s ‘The Royal Tenenbaums,’ one of the greatest father-figure movies of all time (starring Gene Hackman, giving one of the best father-figure performances of all time). They explain why they made the difficult decision to make this the official Wes Anderson selection for the list, discuss why there is nothing among his filmography that quite matches this unique energy, and wonder whether this is the best collection of needle drop moments from any Anderson movie ever made. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Jack Sanders This episode is sponsored by State Farm®️. A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.®️  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is presented by State Farm. Life's full of decisions, big and small, and sometimes you make movie ones you can really stand behind. For example, I was wise enough to stick around through the mid-credits during Ryan Coogler's sinners. And unlike my co-host, Amanda, I got to see a very special sequence with the great buddy guy, among other things. State Farm gets it. Making confident choices can make all the difference. That's why, with the State Farm Personal Price Plan, you can choose the right amount of coverage to help create an affordable price for you. to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal

price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about the Royal Tenen Bombs. Anybody interested in grabbing a couple of burgers and hit in the cemetery? Okay. So, this is our Wes Anderson selection.

Here we are. This is Wes's third feature film. It's his first film in the 21st century. He wrote and directed this movie co-written with Owen Wilson, his early partner in writing. It stars Gene Hackman, Angelica, Houston, Danny Glover, Ben Stiller, Luke Wilson, Gwyneth Paltrow, Bill Murray, Owen Wilson, Kumar Palana, Seymour Cassell, and the voice of Alec Baldwin.

Okay, let's just begin with why this Wes Anderson movie. I think that's probably our most relevant entry point because this, I don't know that we debated it a lot, but you could make the case for six other movies. You could. And I do think that you tried a little. And this is what happens every time you and I talk about Wes Anderson is that you, you know, kind of push a needle and you're like,

but what about Rear Ice Kingdom? And like, what about Rushmore? And what about Bottle Rocket and Grand Budapest? And, you know, on and on and on and on. And those are all really valid points except for the fact that Bottle Rocket and Rushmore were not eligible for this, having been done in the last century. Rushmore versus Tenenbaum's would have been a war between us because that is still my favorite. It was a war when we ranked the West Hamers and films on this very podcast.

And then, as now, I won because, like, at the end of the day, it's tenen bombs. It is, it's tenen bombs because of where it is in the West Anderson Oove, if you will, like, and what it represents of the development and also the future of his career. I think it's, it's ten of bombs in terms of, you know, mass popularity. It is like, in some ways, it's the most mainstream, you know, certainly. the most Halloween costumes, but it's, we don't always have to fight that, you know? Sometimes that's a sign of something catching with a, I mean, it's his calling card. And it sets the intention for the rest of the century.

So, and it is also just lights out amazing. Yeah, it's a wonderful movie. I think the best case that could have been made would have been for Grand Budapest Hotel. Sure. Because that was the film that was the sort of like arrival of West as a part of the like institutional movie history because it was such a financial success and Academy Award recognized. And this movie is, this is the, the bridge, him walking across the bridge from independent filmmaker to mainstream studio filmmaker.

And Scott Rudin is producing his movies and there is like a higher level of celebrity appearing in these films. It's not just this troop of friends that he's organizing out of Texas. You know, it's Gwyneth Paltrow and Bill Murray returning. And, you know, it is also, I like that phrase calling card that you used because it's not just the iconography of the movie, but the exploration of all the things that interests him that he feels like he's kind of circling all the wagons around his ideas and pouring them all into this big kind of micro epic, right? It's like a mini epic about a family over a period of time. Yeah. And it is set in one house where everyone has the rooms.

I mean, it is like it's a doll's house or a diorama. You know, there is stylistically meta-textual, you know, the framework, all of both the themes and the motifs that interest him are, like, bubbling there in Bottle Rocket and Rushmore, but this is like, okay, lock in, look at these colors, you know, look at this block text, like, you know, literary print and these chapters, the music cues, the, like, there's, like, there. The magical realism, really, of like a different world that is a world. Yeah, the pastel constructed world that we recognize, but also, you know, it's like 70s, New York, but it's also 2001. And it's a 70s New York that only really existed in the minds of, like, a kid from Houston and or a kid from Atlanta who was like, oh, maybe there is, like maybe Salinger's New York could be real, or at least in the confines of this movie. Yeah, I mean, Salinger, obviously, Fran and Zoe is, like, the key influence on this film, and he pulls a lot from those pair of stories that Salinger wrote. But then there's also a lot of Mrs. Basilie Frankenweiler, you know, like that. Have you guys read this yet?

Not with Alice. I mean, as a kid, I read it. I mean, that's like cortex for me. Claudia was on the list of girls' names for us. Like that is, yeah, like, unreal. Yeah, I mean, so from the mixed up files, that book, the whole vibe of that book is imbued in the first 40 minutes of this movie. be most of the narration, most of the young Tenenbaum's portraiture of these three child geniuses. Including literally, like that Margo and Richie runaway. It's a different museum. And they don't keep

their money in the violin case as they do in the book. But I always thought that that was just a really useful life lesson. Yes. And that's what's, that's the thing that this movie does is that it makes manifest these literary and film influences that are clearly so important to him. You've got 70s American cinema and you've also got 60s French New Wave. And these two, like the emotionality and the cutting style of the French movies and then the sort of like emotional rawness of the 70s movies, I would not describe the last five or six West movies as emotionally raw. They are emotional. But there is like a kind of violence in this movie. There's like an anger and even like a viscerality with the famous Richie Tenenbaum scene

that he's never really gone back to. Like you can feel a little bit of some of that rage and despair and Darjeeling. You can feel a lot of sadness in these last few movies in Asteroid City, like a real melancholy in those movies. I mean, you walked out of, oh my gosh, what's the most recent one's name?

Phoenician scheme. Phoenician scheme saying this is like a pretty angry and like there are... It's a violent movie, Phoenician scheme, for sure. And it's a different kind of violence. But you're right. This most recent movie reminded me, I think of that feeling of like,

oh, Wes is like, something's pissed him off. something's got really gotten under his skin. And returning to this movie for the first time in about five years last night, it was nice to go back to that time when he was in a little bit of his angry young man phase. And people don't really think of Tenenbaum that way because of the Halloween costume aspect that you're describing. You know, Richie's headband and Gwyneth Paltrow's haircut and the overcoat and those perfect needle drops. The fur coat. I mean, like I was this close to pulling up the Lacost dresses like last night while watching.

And I was like, no, I'm older. I've moved past this. We've memed this. There's nothing wrong with going back to it. But I think that him kind of finding a way to take those film influences that he loves, all these books that he loves so much. And also just what you can feel is the mind of an imaginative Texan, trying to wish himself away from where he's been born and what he's stuck into, you know.

Which I, you know, responded to. This movie came out when I was a senior in high school, you know? So I was like, oh, like I too. long for this, this place that did not ever exist, right? That is, you know, imagination and is come from like reading a lot of books and watching a lot of movies and thinking like, oh, there could be a world where everyone is messed up, but in a very stylish and literary way. Yes, they're literally moving in slow motion, elegantly, sadly. Yeah, I think like the 345th Street, Y and the public archives and all of these places that seem like real places that are inspired by

real places. He takes this to kind of like an epic conclusion I find in the Life Aquatic where he's inventing creatures literally undersea. But that just that very slight turn of the dial of creativity inside and otherwise realistic

emotional world, it felt pretty novel. There's not, you can say, oh, this is kind of like Hal Ashby movies or this is kind of like true phone movies, but his sensibility, especially if you had not caught up to Bottle And Rushmore.

Yeah. It's like this film kind of got like brought in from another planet. Right. And it is interesting because it is a template setter, but it is not, there's nothing that quite matches this very specific energy that this movie has. Right. Because it's, Ian rewatching it after having spent more time I would say in the last few years watching all the new stuff and some of the more recent stuff, you know, it is both,

as you said, an epic, but like very modest. It is, it's the most grounded of, of the movies. It is a family, you know, and they have some pretty, like, far-flung and unusual problems, but they are, it is about a group of people coming back to one house. Yeah. And their connections are pretty primal and understandable, you know, with maybe the exception of Richie and Margo. But, you know, it's, so you're not underwater, right? You're not on a train in India.

You're not, like, in, you know, exploring fascism in the 40s at, like, a beautiful pink hotel. So there is something that is, I think, like, approachable sounds kind of reductive, but the flights of fancy are built upon something, like, very, very simple, honestly, and just a dad and some kids. So this is not quite the earliest movie on our list. It's very close to being the first released movie. It's the second earliest movie. And one of the things that I think is interesting about that is that this is still technically a 21st century movie. But all of those things that you're describing is like this is kind of the ultimate 21st century movie about the 20th century. So like the disillusion of the family unit in America is such a huge theme of all American art, basically from the establishment of the suburbs all the way through the 2000s, right?

Like that is something that the great novelists, filmmakers, they're constantly exploring and re-exploring these ideas. Wes, consumed by the idea of the father figure, every single one of his movies is about a father figure in one way or another, the absence of them, the presence of them, the domineering nature, the loss, whatever it might be. And this is like an all-time father-figure movie with an all-time father-figure performance. And, you know, the men of the 20th and 21st century are still getting over this feeling.

But as opposed to, say, in the Grand Budapest Hotel, where he finds his character as kind of a stand-in father figure, or, you know, in Moonrise Kingdom where you've got these kids kind of wandering around who are trying to escape the idea of parenthood, you know, front and center in the movie is Gene Hackman. Yeah. And we didn't plan for Gene Hackman to pass away this year. Yeah. But I'm quite happy that we can at least, like, honor his career on this list because he's, he's, he's. He's one of our favorite actors, and this is the second to last movie that he made, and he reportedly did not enjoy his experience making this movie, and he and West did not see eye to eye. I was watching the Criterion edition of this movie last night, and there's a very short interview with Gene Hackman, contemporaneous to the production of the movie, less than three minutes. And he was, he was like smiling his way through it, but he's like shades of Dustin Hoffman in the Megalopolis documentary.

Very, very much, very much. Like, I'm turning it on for you for as long as I possibly can. Ken. But he said something that I had not, I don't think I had heard before, which is that he, that Wes approached him, I guess after the success of Rushmore and said, I'm writing something for you. Right. And Gene Hackman said, do not write something for me. I do not like to have things written for me. I like to receive something and bring myself to it. Yeah. And then West wrote it for him anyway. Uh-huh. And he accepted it because it's obviously the part of Royal Tennebaum is a great star part. It's a great movie performance. You can see why he couldn't resist taking it on, but you can see he brings like a little bit of agitation to the

constructed world of Wes Anderson. Yeah, which is the magic of the performance and of this movie, because every other father figure in his movies, maybe with the exception of Benicio del Toro in Phoenician scheme. Yes. Is playing the Anderson deadpan, right? Is, like, has the anti-charisma. And the tension and. the theme of this movie and in a lot of ways is about Gene Hackman is doing the Anderson Lines

and he is in the frame where he's supposed to be, but it's still just like affable, irresistible, animated Gene Hackman. And like it does seem that that's the intention. And everybody else really does stay in line, which is amazing. When we saw one battle after another, something that PTA said in the Q&A was about, how Benicio del Toro said, he asked that, just make sure I don't pick up anyone else's energy. I, you know, that's the, that's what I need. Yes.

That Leo's character has, like, is a live wire. Right. And Benicio wants to remain. Exactly. It's calm. But I think, you know, that is a hard thing for an actor to do, especially when you have such a charismatic performance. And none of the other actors in Tenenbaum pick up the energy. It's so true.

They stay really still. But it's, again, he is. supposed to be irresistible. I would say because of the zaniness of the movie, the Grand Budapest Hotel finds performance does. It's not the same level of affability is a good word for it, that Hackman's character. That's sort of like mischievous old codger vibe that he's giving.

But it's very rare. I mean, think of Tom Hanks in Astrid City. Like, he is so buttoned up and so drained of his native charisma in that movie. And Hackman won't allow it. And that resistance, actually, I think, is part of what makes this such a good performance. because it's such a well-written character who, like, is a bastard.

Like, he is a motherfucker, and he's doing a lot of things that are just terrible. As a parent, as a man, he lies, he cheats, he's been in prison, he's been stabbed because of his, you know, belching on deals, and he is not...

He's not someone you should be rooting for. No. And you're, like, rooting for his kids to forgive him in this movie because you want to see Gene Hackman happy, and that's a very special thing. I don't think that there should be more Titanic actors who should be able to tell Wes Anderson, like, I'm going to do my version and not do your

acting style. But we're lucky to have gotten this one. Do you think, is that the impression that you got? It is. He was like, no, no, no, I'm doing it my way. That's just my read. Okay. That they, you know, they kind of brokered a middle ground between the tightness that Anderson is looking for and the performance style, which I would say usually works for his movies. But think of the myriad wildly charismatic actors. Right. Whose most subdued performances come in his movies. Whereas Hackman, you know, think of like Hackman. and still are in the game room together

when they pull the light and they're facing off of each other and the way that they are exploding at each other you don't see that very much in his movies that's very rare and that's obviously two very combustible actors but I just I really really love the energy that he brings

to this movie and how different it feels from all of the other movies because everything else in the movie the costuming, the color palette, the score that Mark's Mark Mothersbaugh composes the needle drops this whole old York City kind of feeling that we have watching the movie

it's all pretty familiar to the other stuff it all matches up but Royal is so different that it elevates the movie in a big way there's a lot of other things that I really like about this movie I mean one thing that I wrote down

that I hope you will appreciate near the end of the film there's this panoramic shot where the camera is moving after Eli's car crash right and up the windows and down the windows and it kind of mirrors the opening K-Jude montage

But he's capturing every single character in his movie in that sequence as the camera's movie. Now it's a very showy kind of move. It's a real, like, this is my first big boy movie kind of move. But it felt like what a lot of his movies feel like, which is reading a Richard Scary book with a magnifying glass. Yeah. I mean, it's an apt and, like, you know, time of life com, for sure.

But like, when you open a Richard Scary book, There's 30 characters, and they're all doing something different. That's true, except for the moms who all have to be in the kitchen. We could update some of those. We're not talking about the native patriarchy present in the scary literature. We're talking about the visual palette. We ripped out the mother's work as never done chapter. Oh, geez, is that a chapter in a Richard's scary?

Yeah, and what do people do all day, which is one of, you know, a great question and a great title for a book. What do they do? That's what moms do. Yeah, they podcast. That's what moms do. But you know, that feeling of like when you're a kid and you open a book like that and there's a million things to look at And how do you decide what to look at and his job as a filmmaker is to move the camera Yeah, move the camera and figure out which guy to go to and I kind of like him discovering his style

I like watching him figure out how to spend money and see how to expand the idea of what a Wes Anderson movie can be So that's one thing I mean Is this the his best? collection of needle drop moments was something I wanted to ask you. His most memorable. And, you know, I do think that I don't hear these days without thinking of Margo getting off of the Green Line bus. And some of it is when do you encounter this music in your life?

And did I hear a lot of these songs for the first time in this movie? I did. I think that's true for many of his fans. Sure. But then also, the ones that you do know, I mean, you know, me and Julio, every single time I just, I think of the three of them on the tricycles. It's just, like, they're used so beautifully. And intentionally, like, they are part of the fabric of the movie in a, you know, in a, even more than a Scorsese way. You know, they are like almost dietic. Yeah. I mean, I think that's definitely true of everyone, the Van Morrison song that closes the film as well, that you're right. There is a kind of literalization. The same way that Ulala and Rushmore similarly kind of feels like it is announcing the theme of the movie via pop music. He doesn't do this nearly as much as he used to.

He's kind of become much more restrained with a lot of this stuff. He still has his, like the kinks, the band are one of his kinks. He always like to find a place for the kinks. But in this movie, he gives you both, right? Like he gives you slightly more obscure Rolling Stone song and then he gives you a Ruby Tuesday. Right. As she is saying, like, I think we just need to be secretly in love with each other. You know, it is like, and then goodbye, Ruby Tuesday.

Yes. Like, okay, yeah. But then also he gives you two very obscure Bob Dylan songs. Yeah. He gives you wigwam, which then kind of became a well-known song, I think, in the aftermath of its uses in this. And then the theme from Packard and Billy the Kid in that amazing, you know, that's just like a wordless acoustic guitar composition. And it's just like one of those things where some filmmakers just have this tool. They just, and they can get away with obviousness, and they can also become.

vehicles for discovery, for music taste, you know, for finding new genres of music that you otherwise might not have liked if they weren't matched with his imagery. So I think this is probably the most classic version of that. Even Judy is a punk, you know, while racing in the go-karts too with the Ramones, like, and him blending all these different styles the same way he's blending all these cinematic styles. There's just not a huge history of classic filmmakers who can artfully blend comedy and not drama, but sadness. Yeah. That's a very sticky thing to do.

And I was trying to think of the filmmakers in my life that I have loved who can do it. And it's like, it's James L. Brooks. It's Woody Allen. It's Billy Wilder. Ernst Lubits sometimes. You know, I'm sure there are many more. Noah Baumbach? Definitely Noah Baumbach.

And obviously they have been collaborators and friends And I did write down the squid and the whale As kind of like a companion film to this film But it's a hard thing to do To capture not just sincerity But like that ache that people have And still making you laugh And this is near the top for me

In terms of his slate of films too That's able to do that Yeah do you think some of that Is generational for us Because this is one that for you and me is like, you know, like the Bible. It's in the... And then there is a school of people

who have just never really gotten on the Wes Anderson train or they admire it formally. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure this whole list is informed by how old we are, right? I know, but the West Anderson thing in particular,

and like that particular brand of sadness does feel like it came also to us at the moment. I mean, he is slightly older than us, but like of a generation and expressing... When Battle Rocket came out.

Exactly. I mean, I think you and I both grew up in a house that our dad didn't live in. You know what I mean? Like, that's a, if there's a movie like that, that has that scope of emotionality, like that, that is very powerful. And also has Gwyneth Paltrow in just incredible. Huge for you. Should I get into that eyeliner? I was like, should I get a bob?

It's heavy. I know. She's wearing a lot of it. I know, but I was given some eyeliner recently. Really? I haven't tried it by Victoria Beckham makeup. Thank you so much. I thought you were just going to stop after Beckham.

That would have been amazing. You didn't stop talking after Beckham. I don't think Posh knows me personally, though. I welcome any overtures. This podcast is getting big. You never know. You think the Beckams are sitting at home quietly, listening to our review of Black Bag, thinking, I quite like this film as well.

You know, David makes honey now, so really anything is possible. You're a consumer of items in jars, as we know. Yeah, that looks. Do we think it's a wig, Gwyneth Paltrow? I don't. You think it is, and I guess you're just getting like daily touch-ups. I don't either, but it is really hard to maintain that level of. That sharpness?

Yeah. Yeah. It is very, that's quite a line. I know. Yeah. I'm sure it was just snipped every day. I'm sure. It's great to have a makeup and heard of it.

But it looks great. I don't think I could pull it off, but. I am covetous of Luke Wilson's hair in this film. Before or after the incident? Well, he looks great with his. shaved head. But his long hair and beard, speaking of the hiding, that is the ultimate hide.

And the, would you well, I want to talk to you about this? Okay. So I don't know, I'm sure you don't know about this because I assume you did not watch this, but on the ringer fantasy football draft that I participated in in August when I was supposed to be on vacation. I think I was texting you. I was somewhere cool and you were doing fantasy football. I was sitting with Joe House and

Oh, I think, yeah. I was like, but I remember being like, I think you're drafting right now. Yes, you You did text me during that. One of the clever things that the fantasy guys came up with was that there's a punishment and the punishment for the loser of the fantasy of football, the person who comes in the last place, which could definitely be me, is that the punishments are individuated. Oh, okay. And so you can draft your punishment. So there was a list of 15 available punishments. And one of your draft picks would be what you would, what punishment you would get.

Cousin Sal, for example, drafted having to get an ear pierced. Wow. Live on camera? I don't know if that was stipulated, but they should for the pod. I think I was the first person to draft a punishment because the punishment, and some of these were extremely benign and some of them were deeply malignant, was to podcast while wearing a headband, but never address it. And that's what I chose. Can your host address it? You can do whatever you like. You're free to... I'll just laugh the whole time.

But in fact, I do finish and last. And I'm 0 for one. I lost to Craig Horle back in the first week. And I'm essentially tied with Bill Simmons going into a night with two Monday Day football games. And we both have two players left to play. So it's a showdown. So I could be 0 and 2. And if I'm 0.2, it's getting away from me pretty quick.

And if I lose this league, which is possible, I had the 10th pick and I'm the least informed person about football who was on the entire. draft. I will wear the Ritchie Tenenbaum headband. Okay. That is going to be that's a long-winded way of saying Yeah. That maybe I'll wear the whole outfit. Maybe I'll wear the tan suit with the tennis but the tennis polo and the big brown glasses.

I'm open to it and then your beard is coming through. The hair will be sort of you're going to get it long or maybe I'll wear a wig. Okay. I mean Could I do an entire pot about like Wicked for Good what dressed as Richie Tenenbaum. I think I could. I think I would enjoy it, you know? I know.

Richie is so great. You know, Luke Wilson, who Chris Ryan once famously said, could have been Harrison Ford. As I was watching, I was like, was this the podcast where he said, and it's not? It's not. It's not. It wasn't on that one.

Chris and Andy did Royal Tenenbaum. Yes, there's a very good episode of that show that Chris and Andy did. Everybody's performance in this movie is good and a little bit different from what they're best at. with the exception of Luke's brother Owen. Yeah. I made a list of 10 things that I love about this movie that I think makes it worthy.

And number six is just Eli Cash, who I think is a perfect movie character and so funny and so sad. You know, kind of the embodiment of the strain of this movie and a ridiculous, a complete buffoon. Him just hiding in the closet in a cowboy hat and his underwear. Yeah. Looks great. Well, you think he's being alluring or something. I know. It's really funny.

Wilson I miss this Owen Wilson I miss this guy sure we all do I don't I don't totally know what happened I know there's a lot of speculation about what happened obviously he's fine personally physically but his what he was interested in doing and the kinds of movies and stories that he was telling and what he and Wes were writing together

I wish they'd write another movie together because I can feel his sense of humor in this movie that is a little different from when he's teaming up with Roman Coppola or Noah Bomback or any of his other co. co-writers, there's a madcap sensibility that Owen Wilson brings to the movies that I

really, really enjoy. And he's hilarious in this movie. And this idea, I don't know that I had necessarily an exact one-to-one with this, but that idea of maybe this, maybe it was my family because I had a big family. But this idea of like people are always

coming over to your house. Yeah. Because they want to be. Longing to be a part of that. I mean, I was an only child, so I definitely got that for sure. Yeah. I mean, that's a very astute.

I didn't send anyone my college grades. No, no. I hope no one saw them. That was kind of my hope. It don't matter. Once you get into college. Just a tip to all you kids out. Don't fail out. Don't lose your scholarship. Otherwise, who cares? Couldn't agree more. We're on the same page there. They're parents at home right now. We're paying $180,000 a year for college. We're like, shut the fuck off Amanda. That's a question. At this point, like, do we really, what's the worth? But, you know, that's okay. Do you think kids should not go to college?

No, I think if you can't, I loved college. So if you have the opportunity and it's a, you know. That's where you discovered alcohol. That's true. I know that's where I discovered it. It's just where I really, you know, primed my taste. The only other sequence that really jumped out to me as both more clever and more sad than I had remembered was the Raleigh and Richie discovering Margot. journey through romance, her various romantic escapades, her previous marriage, all the men

that she's found before, like, there's an incredible level of, it kind of becomes like an act of satire at that point when it's going on, but it's also just like very, very funny and beautiful. With Dudley also sitting there. Yes. Shout out to Dudley, another great character. Dudley's world. I had forgotten the name of the book.

All the book covers are fantastic. It's so good. Yeah. So, I mean, all of this stuff put in a blender. Yeah. And you get an amazing movie. Plus, you get, I don't know, like 10 of the funniest lines of the century. Yeah.

You've got, this is my adopted daughter, Margo. Sure. You've got, you used to be a genius. You got heartbreaking. I've had a tough year dad. Yeah. You know, Ben Stiller. Interesting actor.

Like, not always an actor with the most range. But there is like a wounded quality to him. Yeah. That when he lets go, he's very good in this. On this rewatch, I was like, oh, this is more Chaz's movie than I remembered. They all kind of get their moments. But that and then in the ambulance. Yeah, see, that incredibly sad moment.

And the smile from Gene Hackman is it's really nice. Yeah. And a movie, too, where a narrator helps and doesn't hurt. Yeah. You know, like Alec Baldwin's reading of the sort of opening graphs of individual chapters of this story could have felt very mannered and

phony and somehow it just works because it does give you that quality of reading a good book. And that's very unusual. Usually when you're hearing a narrator, you're like, uh-oh, you didn't have anything, you're taping this together with voiceover after the fact. And no, it's embedded in. And also quotable in its own

way. Very much so. I'm very sorry for your loss. Your mother was a terribly attractive woman. I think that one was when I was watching it last night and Zach, like, laughed from the other room and came in and sat down and was like, well, okay. This is the one that I use all the time. You do this one?

Yeah. Well, everyone knows Custer died at Little Bighorn. What this book he presupposes is, maybe he didn't. Which is delivered whilst walking down a hallway and being interviewed because Eli is a world famous author. He's fake Coromack McCarthy. It's really funny. Very, very good idea. Hell of a damn

grave. Wish it were mine when we're sitting in from a shot of a giant. Gravestone. And we haven't really said the name Danny Glover yet, but Hackman and Glover, you know, two old dogs and going toe to toe in the kitchen scene where Glover's like,

do you just call me Coltrane? And Hackman's like, no. That scene also is dynamite. And then, to me, the most heartbreaking scene in the movie. Yeah. Which also feels like a little bit of an invention, but maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, is near the end of the film, Royal takes Margot out for ice cream. I'll have a butterscotch Sunday, I guess.

Yes. And it seems like he's not just making up for lost time, but he's trying to do something. Yeah. He'd never done before. He never spent any individual time with his adopted daughter. And she is disassociated and depressed. Right. And she says, you probably don't even know my middle name. And Royal says, that's a trick question. You don't have one. And Margot very quickly says, Helen.

And Hackman, an incredible moment, says, that was my mother's name. and Margot says, I know it was. Yeah. And just a very economical, beautiful piece of writing. Two great actors. Yes. I really, I love that scene. There's a lot of scenes like that in this movie.

I also like the payoff then when, or not the payoff, but like the coded to that when Margot's new play debuts. And it is just like a reenactment of. Levinson's in the trees. Right. One of the kids, you know, scenes that we've seen earlier. And they cut to the audience and everyone is. still, except for Hackman just, like, cracking up at his own character stand. And it's really nice.

This is really great. Let's talk about this movie's legacy just a little bit. So it did get an original screenplay Oscar nomination. Okay. It did not win. It was also nominated for a BAFTA and a WGA in that category. Hackman got a Globe nomination for comedy or musical. Yeah.

If this were Wes Anderson's 10th movie instead of his third, it would have nine Golden Globe nominations. Right. But it's one of those ones. that kind of like got everyone's attention. Yes. And then, you know, not all of his films are warmly received by the institutions of awards bodies,

but a lot of them are now and it kind of woke a bunch of people up. And yeah, I mean, let's just go through the movies very quickly. So Life Aquata comes after this in three years. Darjeeling three years later. Fantastic Mr. Fox two years later. Moonrise Kingdom three years later.

Grand Budapest two years later. Then Isle of Dogs, the French Dispatch of the Liberty Canst, This Evening Sun, Astrid City, and the Phoenician scheme. This is, as I said, the first movie that Scott Rudin produces for him, and Rudin produces for him all the way through 2018, essentially all the way up until Scott, you know, the revelations about Scott Rudin's behavior as a producer.

And this is like, there are a handful of filmmakers that that producer kind of grabbed. Grabbed and propelled forward. And protect it, you know, and allow to work in the way that they wanted to work. And, you know, Wes Anderson is going to be successful regardless of whether or not somebody came along. But that is an incredible run of movies with a very defined style operating in its very own, very specific way that, like, over time was allowed to develop into success. So this is something that I'm kind of obsessed with on the show, as you know, where letting not just jet streaming young independent filmmakers directly into franchise films, but like letting them grow consistently. and hoping that those filmmakers will, like, want to take incremental strides in terms of scope and creatively with the kinds of movies that they want to make.

Because, you know, Life Aquatic is a much bigger movie. It's a movie on the ocean. Right. It's a movie with all this puppetry and design. It's not a movie just set in a house, like this film. You know, this is like a logical step from the grounds of Rushmore. I mean, it's a ship for a lot of it, but they go places on the ship. Yes, they do go.

I mean, there's like an island sequence. There's all kinds of guns. There's all kinds of stuff happening in the, There are BB guns in this. That's a good point. Yeah. Let me ask you a question about Chaz's BB in his hand. Yeah.

Why not just have a very quick surgery to have that sucker taken out? It's a really great point. But, you know, in the magical 70s, it's actually 2001, New York, they don't really, they're not as uptight with their parenting, you know, or their medical intervention. Would you shoot your son with a BB gun? No, I would not. Okay. Would my sons shoot me with a BB guns? Like, probably.

Pretty likely, I would say, yeah. Might be maybe until like 18. or 19, they would think that's a good idea. And yeah, this is just a, this is a darn special movie. Do you feel like we have found the right placement for this film? No, but I think we're going to feel that way every single time from here on out. But like, as we said, it's just, it's, it's bangers all the way down this list. This is number 12.

Yeah. So 11 more. We've got to do 11 of these in three and a half months. We can do it. There are some of our favorite films of all time. That is true. It's going to be okay. Recommend it if you like.

Yeah. Wes Anderson movie. I mean, every West Anderson If you've seen every West Anderson movie Except for this movie, you're a sociopath. That's a very odd choice. I wrote down Hannah and her sisters, which is a rare combination of that sadness

and that comedy. In terms of endearment. Good one. James L. Brooks. Harold and Maud, certainly. The off-kilter approach to characterization and comedy. And the 70s of it all, for sure. And overcoats as well.

And suicide attempts. I mean, there's a great many things that are, you know, Harold and Maud is very much in the bloodstream of the royal tenet bombs and squid in the whale. And, you know, I think arrested development is an interesting one. If you liked that sitcom about a crazy, wealthy family, then there's definitely a lot to match this up with. Am I going to wake up tomorrow and regret this not being Grand Budapest? Because I know I would never be able to get moonrise,

but I don't know if we fought enough about it being Grand Budapest. You are, and I'm sure you'll feel that way. And I love Grand Budapest. But Grand Budapest does not exist. I mean, certainly in the scope of Hollywood, but just even ideologically, creatively, without the blueprint of Royal Tenen Bowms. So one more question for you.

Yeah. Honor the thing, you know? I get it. I get it. Speaking of that, it's September 15th right now when we're recording. Okay. It's starting to feel like the Paul Thomas Anderson year is happening, right? Where at the Academy Awards and maybe even at the box office, there will be this sense of like, if not now, when to honor this person. Unless, you know, well, it's actually, we'll talk about this later, but it's shaping, it's like a Shakespeare in love versus a saving private Ryan year.

100%. It's starting. It is. But I mean... So I'm on the other side this time. But the flip side of that is, though, we have this conversation for the literally next six months. But in this case,

Hamnet is just saving Private Ryan and Shakespeare in love. Right, but yeah. It's one battle after another. It's like Hamnitz are, you know, Chloe Zhao's already been honored. Yeah. PTA is not. But I bring this up because two years ago, Wes Anderson did in fact win an Academy Award for Henry Sugar,

Which was very good. A very good short film, but it felt like... Give the man a big kid Oscar. Right. He doesn't even have a screenplay Oscar. Yeah. And he's one of the signature American filmmakers of the last 25 years.

There's no question about it. And I'm... Do you think he will ever have his moment? Because he has... He does have so many detractors. Right. And he is also going into... You know, French Dispatch, Asteroid City,

and Phoenician scheme are kind of like a trilogy on their own with a lot of links to tenen bombs and emotional in their own way but way more like diorama way more like how big can we build this dollhouse? Tightly constructed, yes.

And how many dollhouses can we like build around it? Yes. So. Meta-explorational, I would say. So they're not as open as tenet bombs is. Yeah, they feel a little suffocating to people who are not on the wavelength.

But, you know, to bring it back to PTA, we were talking about one battle after another, like, after licorice pizza and how much more I can appreciate licorice pizza now that I'm like, well, sometimes you do your character studies or, you know, artists can do a lot of different things, especially artists at this level. So if he wants to do his little triptych, and then maybe he'll want to do something else. And maybe he won't. I think that he would need to be a little bit broader in order to really get the Academy back. But I don't know. It's Wes Anderson. It's no bomb back. It's Greta Gerwig.

Like, you know, our class, our faves haven't had their Oscars yet. Yeah. I hope they'll get there. Yeah. It's normally okay because obviously we always, in some ways you don't want them to win because it's cooler because. Stanley Kubrick never won. You know what I mean? Like all the greats never won.

Hitchcock never won. Right. Tom Cruise. Not yet. Tom Cruise never won. But with someone like Wes who is so clearly working in a very individual style,

but in such a story tradition of people who have been honored like James L. Brooks, like Woody Allen. Right. I don't know. I guess I don't know. I'm curious. Not that the Academy Awards

would certify. his career in any way. But he is the kind of filmmaker who is, he's a beacon of independent, of major independent cinema. Right. And that's turning out so well right now. So it's really not. Yeah. It's really not. Um, clearly everyone wants to invest more in it. We, number 11 is coming up. I can't wait. I can't wait to rewatch number 11. I don't remember what it is and I just looked at the list. I won't give you a single hint. Hold on. I'm extremely, oh yeah, now I remember what it is. Yes. Oh, it's a good one. Again, it's like, And I feel very smart about how this is shaken out, is something I'll say about it.

We are good at our jobs, which is making a list of our own opinions. That is entirely true. Thanks to everyone for listening. Thanks for our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. We will be back later this week with a very special physical media extravaganza. See you then. Thank you.