The Big Picture - The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 16 - ‘Oppenheimer’

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

Sean and Amanda return to continue their yearlong project of listing the 25 best movies of the 21st century so far. Today, they discuss Christoper Nolan’s ‘Oppenheimer’, starring Cillian Murphy, one of the most iconic biopics of all time. They talk about their contentious decision to choose this film as the official Nolan selection for the list, wonder whether this will end up as the culmination of his career, and hypothesize what the film’s legacy will ultimately be. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Jack Sanders THIS EPISODE IS SPONSORED BY THE STARBUCKS COFFEE COMPANY. ORDER NOW | STARBUCKS.COM/MENU Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode of the big picture is presented by Starbucks. The unofficial drink of summer is here and it's just as good as I remembered. Starbucks summer berry refresher is everything you'd want from a summer beverage, a blend of berry notes shaken with ice and poured over a layer of new raspberry flavored pearls. And personally, my favorite refresher is the summer berry lemonade. It just tastes like summer in a cup and adds a whole other level of fresh flavors. We are on the brink of a major heat wave here in a cup and adds a whole other level of fresh flavors. We are on the brink of a major heat wave here in Los Angeles and nothing would be more refreshing than a Starbucks Summer Berry Lemonade Refresher.

Available for a limited time only, your Summer Berry Refresher is ready at Starbucks. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about Oppenheimer. And now I am become death destroyer of worlds. Okay, Amanda. Here we are.

Oppenheimer. Yeah. This is the 12th feature film from Christopher Nolan. Now, Christopher Nolan, some would say, I'm not sure if I would say, maybe I would say, is the 21st century filmmaker, the most successful and significant maker of movies in this century. Do you agree with that suggestion? Certainly of movie culture, as we know it now,

and as we have been marveling that it, you know, it has died many deaths this century and then seems to be back. And he's played a big part in bringing it back, in advancing it, and I guess preserving it, if you, you know... Defending its honor. Sure, at least, you know... For him. And for canisters. Everywhere.

So, I think he's abs... He's representative, if he is not, like, the... So maybe signature is the right word. It's interesting, you know, this show, our intention with this show, not just the series, but the show is to kind of represent modern movies and modern movie culture. We talk about every new movie that comes out.

And yet you and I over the years have had complicated relationships to various Christopher Nolan movies. I did not think we could do this list without finding a way to acknowledge Christopher Nolan. Right. Well, actually, at first you did, because as listeners... No, I didn't. I didn't. Uh...

So here's... No, I didn't. I didn't. Uh... So here's... Well, did I? Did I not put The Dark Knight on the original list? I put it on. Yes, but I went with it. And then we had our big debate. I took it off. You did.

And I was gonna replace it with a film. I won't reveal that film. But one film came off of our list that was on as recently as a month ago. And we have replaced it because I ultimately just didn't feel like we could do this activity without acknowledging Nolan. Now, I thought that Dark Knight was right. And I thought the Dark Knight...

Well, so did I. I suggested the Dark Knight. So why aren't we doing the Dark Knight right now? I don't think it's as good as this movie that we're talking about. That's really what it comes down to. I think that both movies have incredibly high highs. You can argue which movie has lower lows. The Dark Knight made sense to me as a representative of superhero culture.

I can say now there are no superhero movies on our list. Once again, don't look at me. It's, you know. You wanted Iron Man 2 and I said no. I said I would not. Maybe The Dark Knight. That's the Mickey Rourke one? That's the Mickey Rourke one? That's the Mickey Rourke one.

Okay, I've seen it. I think Nolan's contributions and his individual films are incredibly meaningful, influential, powerful. Oppenheimer to me is the culmination of everything that he's been working towards. It feels right to me. Now, this movie is also, for me... Your favorite Nolan. ...a masterpiece. I think it is extraordinary.

Like a breathtaking movie. It's maybe a little bit less fun to talk about this one because we just talked about it two years ago. It came out almost exactly two years ago. For like seven months because it was the best picture front runner. For the entirety of its run. And then just cleaned up. It is one of the great bulldozers in modern awards history.

And it was also a massive success at the box office. And that's when I say culmination, I think creatively it's fully realized, but also it did everything in a way that I'm not sure if I could think of a single comp for how big and I guess Titanic is really the only comparison in the history of movies really. You know, you could say, oh, like the 10 Commandments or something, you know, there's occasional examples of these massively scaled movies,

but you know, we have like affection and appreciation for a lot of movies in the 2000s from Nolan. He's made 11 movies this century. Do you want to talk about those 11 movies before we dig into Oppenheimer? Yeah, do you want to go through and... Should we talk about why it's not these movies and why it is Oppenheimer?

Yeah, I think so. Because that was sort of the... I agreed with you, ultimately. Like, we closed that list. There was no Nolan on it. For me, that was kind of a fun month, talking to people about it and, like, talking to a lot of people who were like,

oh, you know, I wonder which Nolan you'll have, and I wonder which whatever, and I chuckled to myself like, ha-ha, the answer is no Nolan, but you're right. I didn't want to troll people though. It felt like a troll. Well, to me it felt fun, but I... Because you are a troll at heart. No, I'm not. But I, you know, and I liked the pure,

that's not fair because the original version of this list had the Dark Knight on it. It did. So, and I still am kind of like, I don't know why it's not that one. But we spent a lot of time trying to figure out which Nolan it should be. And we basically, like, couldn't agree. And we have finally agreed on this one because I do think that two-thirds of this movie are truly sublime.

And I guess I sort of feel that way about The Dark Knight. The first two-thirds of that movie are the most incredible thing you've ever seen, and then the movie kind of keeps going. So if I can make space for Dark Knight, I can agree on Oppenheimer where, one, it gets it right. And it gets it right a lot of time. It is breathtaking and exciting. And even rewatching it, just like the pace of it and the editing and the score, the actual, like, craft decisions, plus Clay and Murphy's performance,

like, it's really, it is, it's very, very good. I do think there are a few other Nolan movies on this list that I could have made a pitch for. I could have too. I know, but they aren't the same ones. I agree, that's part of what makes it fun. I agree, that's part of what makes it fun. I think, let's just start with 2000.

Memento comes out in 2000. Memento, as I've said many times on the show, a great dawning moment for me, a movie I love. I don't know if I think it's a five-star flawless film, but given the expectation of not knowing anything about this filmmaker, I had not seen following when it came out. And the intricacy of the design and the execution around the plotting and the way that it looks and feels,

it's just a very sophisticated, mature thriller. Very smart movie, great Guy Pearce performance at the center of it. There could have been a case for this. It would have been, that would have felt a little troll-y to say like, no, no, no, not in her cell or not in her section. No, it's like kind of cute. A little cute, yeah, a little cute. Which I rewatched it for, because I thought it was eligible

for our 2000 draft, so I rewatched it. Great movie, and that real like, just what am I watching? Sort of in a way that is engrossing rather than off-putting. There is like a little bit too much like Jonathan Nolan puzzle box aspect to it for my personal tastes, but it's arresting for sure. No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. 2002 Insomnia, a remake and kind of an outlier now when we look at his career.

A movie that he didn't write that I think has good performances, but is a fairly rote cat and mouse serial killer thriller. Yeah. That was not really in consideration. Batman Begins, I've always thought, is a good and not great movie. I think it sets a new template for a kind of superhero storytelling. I think it is like basically a lead-up movie in the way that a lot of 2000 superhero movies were kind of like the first one is just setting the table for the second one,

which is going to rock. Well, sure. That's the Star Wars method. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But, you know, without the originality of the building the entire world. Spider-Man does a similar thing in the 2000s. Yeah.

Including this would have been sort of like the, We're not building a hall of fame, right? You know, and you, Sean, always want to include like the one that starts it. The first one, yeah. In this case, we're not doing the one that starts it. No. 2006, The Prestige, among my favorites. Yeah. A lot of boys at home being like, what about The Prestige?

Yeah. It's good, but... What about girls? What about the girls? I'm sorry. I don't mean to exclude them. Yeah. Who love the characterization of Scarlett Johansson's character in this movie.

You know, is it not sophisticated? Is it not a strong woman? The Prestige, I think, is very good. Yeah. Very good. A more than above average movie. The Dark Knight. Well, it's quite something.

It's like, when it's going, it is rocking. It is. I think I Have a hard time not nitpicking Nolan movies from this era to death, okay, and that's just a fact about me Okay, this movie and then inception. Yeah, and then the Dark Knight rises I promise I won't I promise I won't okay. I'll just say the form from 2008 to 2014 I have a hard time not nipping those movies. I don't know why, flaw of mind, fact about me, whatever you want to say. Like, it just is something that when I watch these movies,

I don't feel this way all the time, and I'm usually quite forgiving of this. But when I feel someone getting close to greatness and from my perception missing, I can't help but claw at what's missing to me. And even though The Dark Knight had me vibrating in the theater at times, it's a few decisions I don't love. And...

Are you afraid to speak on them right now for fear that people will start yelling at you again? No, I think it just... I think this movie kind of concludes awkwardly. And I think once Heath Ledger is no longer at the center of the story, the air goes out of the balloon in a lot of ways, you know? And I think that characterization is extraordinary.

I think the rendering of Two-Face and Aaron Eckhart is at first intriguing and then kind of goofy. And I don't totally buy his transformation, you know, him being kind of like red-pilled and being a chaos agent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's just a couple things I don't love about it. It's so funny you could say all of those things about Oppenheimer. Like, copy and paste them.

But you could. Well, one could, but one is not apparently being given the opportunity to do that on this podcast. Anyway, the Inception one... Mm-hmm. This would be your number one pick? Well, I think maybe. I think if we want...

The Dark Knight, if we're not gonna do Dark Knight, then Inception is, I think, the signature. It was like the real... He does Dark Knight and then he's like, but wait, I got Leo and a top spinning and people like shooting each other in some snow for a long period of time. And it was that first real like Nolan Reddit,

can you believe this man? Like what happened in this movie? We were all in it together way. And it really did work for me. I just... I bought into the absurdity of it. And I don't know why Michael Caine couldn't just bring the kids to France, but like also I didn't care, you know? Yeah, just a really good exam. I mean, to the US, from France.

Yeah, just like a movie that just did not stand up to like any examination. From me personally. And I know that giving yourself over to movies is a big part of enjoying movies. Again, for whatever reason, I really like this movie. People think I hate it. I don't hate it. I like it. And there are moments, the hallway fight in particular,

where I'm like, I've not seen anything like this before. And I think that because of the way that he was kind of narrativized as Spielberg meets Kubrick, you know, that that is who this guy is. It's like, imagine if Kubrick directed an Indiana Jones movie. I just don't see it that way. And I think I've actually come to understand better

like who he is and what he represents in movie culture. Cause he's not like either of those guys. And it's useful to be removed from that period in time and look back at the movies. In fairness to these movies that we're talking about right now, I have revisited all of them at least once and usually twice since kind of like arriving at my annoying guy attitude about them. And they... I kind of still... I still feel the same way

about The Dark Knight Rises, which we... We didn't watch a long on. The Dark Knight Rises was not on any of our lists. Very silly movie. A lot of fun. I think it's actually easier to enjoy that for me, because I'm like, nobody is trying to tell me this is the greatest movie ever made. It's definitely like this rocks kind of movie.

Yeah. But it's very silly, and it kind of reveals, I think, a lot of the silliness in a lot of Christopher Nolan's movies. Like his kind of, his conception of good versus evil and what man is battling, it's certainly, they're deep themes, but they're rendered strangely at times, I would say. You know, like his relationship to female characters is pretty complicated and maybe not the most acutely understood.

Yeah, he's a man on an island who is, you know, literal or figurative, who's just trying to... He sees the way, but he can't get there. But, you know, he really is probably the only person who could get there, if anyone could. But then no one can because life is terrible. So now we just have to use a lot of guns. The generation directly beneath us

believes that Interstellar is the one. And if this were a podcast hosted by 32-year-olds... Right. You know, I think there are many of those out there. And there's like... And go check out that show. And there's a pick-up podcast or 12 that you can find outside many of the Interstellar ref screenings. So listen, find your people if that is what you want.

I think Timmy Chalamet is very good in this. That's your first note on Interstellar. I don't know what's going on in this movie. I mean, I do, but I think it might be a McConaughey thing for me. Oh, wow. This only really falls apart for me at the end. Yeah. I think it kind of is an indulgence of explanation. And one thing that I have appreciated about the way that his filmmaking style has changed

since this movie in Dunkirk, Tenet, and Oppenheimer, which is the era I have enjoyed the most, is that he has gotten less self-conscious about making us feel comfortable in his heady ideas. That he is comfortable letting us sort through it, which is the thing I was always banging my gavel at out with him, which is like, stop telling me how every single thing works. I find it obnoxious. And in this movie, the collision of that, the sort of like, I have read all the science, plus love is actually the answer, which to me is the most saccharine, lame conclusion to an otherwise like quite fascinating and sophisticated examination of like the distance between us, the distance across the world, the inability for people to connect really.

Like I think that's what ultimately Interstellar is about, that what we put between us and why we can't stay together and say what we really need to say to each other. That's a great and deep idea and the way that he concludes those things never really made sense to me. So I was never really going to seriously put Interstellar on it, even though I do think it's a great achievement. And Interstellar Inception being original movies at a grand scale from one of our best directors should be applauded.

Just not in this countdown. Okay. Um... Dunkirk? Should we have more strongly considered this? Yes. You wanna do it? You wanna throw an elbow? We did. more strongly considered this? Yes. You wanna do it? You wanna throw an L? But we did.

I threw them all at you. What did I say? And you said no. That was all I said? I had no other responses? It was on text messaging. We were just basically like that. I think that's like literally what happened.

I like Dunkirk. I like Dunkirk. I think it's quite good. It's really, really good. I think it's quite good. And I think maybe it doesn't get me emotionally the same way it does you or Chris or Quentin Tarantino. You know, clearly, like, it has an effect on people. The whole eternity.

My Trinity, yeah. My team. Um... I think Dunkirk is very, very good. I thought it was very good when it was released. I think it's very good now. It's not my favorite. Um, I think it's clever, and I do feel like he had, like I said, I think he unlocked something... Right.

...in his willingness to take chances with that, um, triple time structure that he's doing to unfold that story that is tremendously complicated if you try to unpack it. Right. But doesn't feel that way when you're watching it. I didn't feel confused watching that movie. No, not at all.

And I think he also does figure something out emotionally in all three stories without having to really, without hammering home that this is about, you know, your feelings over time and space. And like love is the answer. They are more character based grounded in the moments, but you know, the... The Barry Keegan character, the Tom Hardy character,

it's all really heart-rending. Even Kenneth Branagh just standing on a dock using Kenneth Branagh voice. Like, he hits the tonal frequency. I do also think that, you know, this is a movie about like a really important and serious stuff. And it is like a war movie, but it is,

and on like a grand scale or even on three grand scales because it has three timelines, but it is not saying this is about the most important thing that has ever happened in the history of the world. So, the gravity of the situation and the gravity of the emotions is communicated, like, through the film itself, as opposed to the dialogue, which I think is something that speaks in its favor.

I agree. I don't have very many bad things to say about the movie. It just doesn't hit me the same way that honestly the next two do. Well, I made a push for Tenet too. Tenet would have been interesting and also would have felt like a troll. Yeah, that's why you said. We love Tenet on this show. I think Tenet... I don't understand it and every time we talk about it,

I understand it less, but I love it. It's a lot of fun. Yeah. I don't know if it's really very thematically deep at all. Like, at all. What is it about? Uh... The immutability of friendship.

Buds? Yeah. Bros hanging. But that's not something that occurs to you until you get to the very end of the movie. You know? Like, it's not clear. Because is Elizabeth DeBakey's son Robert Pattinson? Uh, no. I believe that was debunked. Oh, it's not clear. Because is Elizabeth Dibicki's son Robert Pattinson? Uh, no, I believe that was debunked. Oh, that's sad.

But so then, why, they're bros because John David Washington just knows that he's gonna find Robert Pattinson again in some timeline? Correct. And then are they gonna have to save the world again? Probably. And like, they're just gonna do the opera house forever? I think so.

But it's cool because, you know, you got a pal. This is like me and your husband, you know? It's like we don't have to talk. We can go two months, not talk. And we'll just pick right up. We're good. Am I Elizabeth Debicki in that situation? Insofar as we're gonna have Kenneth Branagh murder you, yes.

Sure, well listen, as long as I can dive off the yacht, you know? That was very elegant. That's great with me. There's a lot to live up to. Yeah, thank you. Tenet is a ton of fun. And I was so. Free ports!

I was... free ports. I forgot about that. I was very happy to have that movie in that time in history. Yeah, I really, really like that movie. To me, it's just not as good as Oppenheimer. That brings us to this moment. Now, your notes on Oppenheimer have been acknowledged in time. There was an entire episode of this podcast

in which you shared those notes. There are multiple. Let's talk about... What's good about it? Yeah, and why it's here. I mean, here's... I made a couple of notes. I feel like these are important things to state around Nolan. One is this is like an operatic humanist.

This is a person who really believes in the theory of the great man. And it's a synthesis of a lot of those ideas and a little bit of a self recrimination. Like the movie is very meta-textual because it's about kind of like what happens when someone with good ideas gets to follow through on those ideas. I've always enjoyed the reading of Christopher Nolan watching the Marvel industrial complex rise in the aftermath of his Batman movies and him thinking like, oh my God, what have I done to the thing I love? That may be a little too... It's actually a little offensive when then you...

If... Like, it's probably not fair to Christopher Nolan to be like, he looked at Marvel and then was like, well, I must tell my story with J. Robert Hoppenheimer. But it's not my responsibility to be fair to him, it's my responsibility to read movies and movie culture. And like, it is undeniable that obviously this world historic significant event that has, that like, speaks to the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives over time.

And also just to like a complete realignment of how we live. And like the fear and anxiety and like mortal danger that the entire world is now in. But this is something that I think it's fair to say like artists do, you know? Like they take the world's events, and the fear and anxiety and mortal danger that the entire world is now in. But this is something that I think it's fair to say like artists do, you know? Yeah. They take the world's events, they take our experiences

and they think about how they're filtered through themselves. That is, I think that's ultimately okay. It doesn't have to be as glib as superhero movie bad. But the thing that I think makes him kind of the heir to Spielberg, the heir to James Cameron, the heir to these handful of filmmakers that get you, no matter what they're doing, to just be like, I gotta see it.

I gotta see what he's gonna do with this. A movie about J. Robert Oppenheimer could have been really boring. And in fact, like, if you've ever seen, uh... What's the Paul Newman movie? Whew. I... Fat Man and Little Boy. Yes. If you've ever seen Fat Man and Little Boy, the 1989 dramatization of the creation of the atomic bomb, which starred Paul Newman as Groves,

the Matt Damon character in Oppenheimer, and Dwight Schultz as J. Robert Oppenheimer, you know, like... It takes something special to make this truly exciting, to make it truly like an event film, and I think he does that. And I was trying to think in my head, who are the true auteurs that can do spectacle? Like, you know, it's really, it's Francis Ford Coppola,

who was like writer first, then filmmaker. Right. The same way that Nolan is, where Nolan writes almost everything he does. Sometimes he bases it on material, just like Coppola based The Godfather on a best-selling novel. But creating this world kind of by yourself as the author

and doing it at that scale, there's not a huge tradition of it in Hollywood. Cameron writes. Yeah, but he is, he writes in a different way. And with different, like, visual goals, as well as thematic undertakings. Yeah, I think the level of prestige, it's only Titanic where he has attempted something

that has that kind of import. He's mostly an entertainer. And he's sure about the world. He is. Yeah, Cameron knows what he thinks is right and wrong. Yeah, and he thinks... And he knows what he thinks is right and wrong. That's ambiguity. Yeah. And he thinks, and he knows where he believes he stands in it.

Our timing is really interesting because he's just lodged some complaints. For sure. Against Oppenheimer because he is intending to make a nuclear film, you know, an atomic movie about the power of the bomb. And he was frustrated by what was not in Oppenheimer, which is a complaint that we heard that I never understood. And I don't agree with where Cameron comes from on this either.

Well, I think that Nolan's response was always that this was like a quote unquote subjective movie. But I think the complaint was this is in many ways a movie about the decision that was made and how it changed our world. And the people who were affected by it are not represented in any way in the movie. And, you know, like, I get it. I think it would have been disastrous

if Nolan had tried to bring, like, that death and destruction into it. It wouldn't fit with the rest of this movie, and it would feel gratuitous. And I think it was smart for him not to do it. like that death and destruction, it wouldn't fit with the rest of this movie and it would feel gratuitous. And I think it was smart for him not to do it, but I understand that this is one side of the story. Very much so.

And it's not attempting to be representative of anything other than the perspective specifically of Oppenheimer, but I think mostly of the people who are kind of sympathetic to his experience as the leading scientist in America at a certain time in history. But subject matter is really perfect for what he's interested in.

He is interested in formulas and theories and this idea of what if, what would happen if something like this happened, but this is a real historical event that he can use to kind of analyze that context. Conspiracy and paranoia and the idea of loyalty all being kind of frictive points, like it's a big part of Inception,

it's a big part of the Dark Knight films. Like this idea that you are bound to these oaths that you've taken, but those taking those oaths then makes you every day think that like something is wrong and amiss. There's a great moment in this movie that is basically where the movie turns. It might be where you kind of lose a little bit

of your tether to it, but the moment itself is so special, which is immediately after the Trinity test. There's a moment when Oppenheimer, the following day it seems, or after the order has been made, walks outside at Los Alamos, watches the bomb leave in trucks.

Yeah, no, that's a great part. And that moment when he realizes, like, this is essentially no longer under, not only not under my control, but it was never under my control. Right. I am just a tool toward this. And Killian Murphy's performance with no words.

Right, and also, I mean, like, the shot itself is so beautiful with the mountains in the background and, like, there, you know, away it goes. It is like a painting. It's just, it's an amazing act of thematic storytelling. Yeah. And conveys a ton. And it is absent, I think, a lot of the political machinations

that kind of dominate the final third of the movie. It is, doesn't have anything to do with this idea that Oppenheimer was a controversial figure in any way. It's like, it's pure human drama. It's a person who thought he was one thing and then realized he was something else. And I saw that as like a really incredibly mature moment for Nolan, who's been kind of like working towards something. And it really, really stuck out to me. And then there's all the other stuff too that he likes, like and it really, really stuck out to me.

And then there's all the other stuff too that he likes, like conquering the metaphysical world, having an idea of what you could do, and then using science to make it real, which is like what Interstellar wants to do, but can't do, like it can't ultimately get you to the explanation point. That's the point, yeah. You know?

I know. So you don't have to understand, you just have to feel. Do you think love conquers all? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's also kind of a detective story, which is something I like about it.

I know you're a little bit more mixed on that. No, listen, so I rewatched it again, and everything, the Trinity test is like one of the most extraordinary things that I've ever seen put on screen. And what's so amazing about it is that, well, obviously, like they don't set off an atomic bomb, but... Sure feels like they do. It does, it feels like they do, but actually what is being filmed

is just like dudes looking in wonder somewhere and dudes looking stressed out. There's very little movement in it. Um, you know, there is, I guess, there's very little movement in it. Um, you know, there is the, I guess, there's a lot of cutting. Again, the editing in this movie is incredible. Jennifer Lam won an Oscar for it. Um, well deserved. But it is, it's just like images and susp- and suspense and an absolutely incredible score,

which also won an Oscar, Luke Morrison, right? So, you know, what he can do... It's intuitive, counterintuitive, what he does with it, even with the final explosion, it's just like cutting to silence, you know, which is also amazing. So, it looks great. I think also the Killian Murphy performance, you just can't look away from it. But my complaints are mostly with the third hour and more generally with the Robert Downey Jr.

plotline with Strauss. Even though I don't love how that's handled, the moment when it comes together from a pure structural perspective and you see how all of these different timelines and things that you've been working on, it clicks together and you're like, aha, and there is that moment of we have the solution and it's this person. So I agree with you at least formally. It's really, really impressive. Faber and Faber publishes a lot of great screenplays. They publish the Nolan screenplays. They publish the Wes Anderson screenplays.

They sent me the last couple of Nolan screenplay books. And so I was going through the Oppenheimer screenplay. I was revisiting it last night and it is all there. He has conceived of not just the dynamic kind of meeting points of the plotting, but of all of the cuts, of all of the visions that Oppenheimer is having of this filmmaking style. Like, and the fact that he has aligned Jennifer Lame, Libby Goerenson, Hoitavan Hoitama, like all of the craft teams in this movie, if none of them is their

first time working with Nolan, they've all kind of figured out what his energies are and what he needs and what he wants. When you think about the act of making the movie with using these IMAX cameras, shooting in 65, and then that's another thing about the movie is that, maybe much to your chagrin, but it did kind of kickstart in a real way. Yeah. I think a... Like the IMAX club in a real way. Yeah.

I think a... Like the IMAX Club? A mass cult... Yeah. Yeah, like canister, on film, 70 millimeter eventizing of a certain kind of a movie. And this is an R-rated adult three-hour drama that made a billion dollars. No, that part is insane.

Like, it's basic achievement just in terms of getting people to turn out and be psyched about a three hour, almost entirely talking and beautifully talking. And I love it when people talk. But the set pieces in this, though they are incredibly difficult to pull off, like, they're not people punching each other, you know? They're not shooting. It's just... It's a lot of, like, technical orchestration of people and timelines and, you know, and trying to make something that never happened look like it happened.

So, as I was watching it last night and thinking about the relationships the characters have in the movie, I think that the film is very... I think, especially for Nolan, very well written. I think the dialogue is, like, very sharp. And... It reminded me a lot of Aaron Sorkin.

For sure. Maybe a little bit less saccharine than Sorkin gets at the end of his stories, but because there's a kind of, like, embittered quality to where we landed in Oppenheimer's arc in American history. But the character of Robbie that David Krumholz plays and his relationship and his kind of protective quality over in Oppenheimer, the way that there is a kind of interrogative approach to many of the characters who are constantly confronting each other with their

own ideas. And then another person comes back with their ideas. So many great scenes where all the scientists are in Los Alamos, and they're pinging back and forth about why something will work or won't work. It does have the frictive quality, which we were just talking about with Sorkin, where we're like, when he was good, he was so good at this stuff, where you had... You can kind of support both positions as you hear people passionately go through their ideas.

This doesn't happen at the movies a lot, you know? It's very rare. And there was something rewatching it even when, you know, it takes on that quality of like often like this movie has existed forever and I've seen it a thousand times. So I want to start. I'm like, oh, it's this part. I know it's so funny that they did that, which is a relationship you can only build with a movie when it's like, it's fully like realized and designed and intentional and that you can nitpick it, that you can start or even dissect it in the way that you can.

It's just because it is like, it's so fully achieved. It is, it's like remarkable. It is a remarkable movie. I, you know. You must turn yourself over to it. I actually, I really loved revisiting it last night. I had a lot of fun with it. It is a three hour movie.

It was my fifth time seeing it. I saw it on the big screen three times. I would happily watch it on a big screen again. I do think it's gonna be a movie to your point about it, like it had been around forever. It is, I think... it's going to have that feeling for a long time, but one of the things I want to talk to you about is the legacy.

So, those are all the reasons why this movie made the list. And they are myriad. Flaws be damned. There's a ton of incredible things about the movie. The legacy is interesting, because this is, I can say now, the most recent movie on our list. Right? There's nothing from 2024 on our list. Yeah, I tried. You tried? I did.

I said no. I said we will not put Deadpool and Wolverine on this list. Oh no, I didn't try. My pick was from 2022 that I wanted to replace this with. Yes, we can reveal that at a later date. Yeah, not over yet. that I wanted to replace this with. Yes, you did. We can reveal that at a later date. Yeah. Um... Not over yet. So, seven Oscars, 13 nominations,

second most nominations of all time. Immediately enshrined in film history as a Best Picture winner. Right. Very rare, best actor, screenplay, supporting actor, director, film. Or did it get screenplay? Maybe it did not win screenplay. No, because it would have, director, film? Or did it get screenplay?

Maybe it did not win screenplay. No, because it would have been adapted, right? And I think Core Jefferson won. You're right. For American fiction. For American fiction. So it did not get the screenplay. So here's my question for you. Yeah.

I have two possible roads for this movie, historically. One is, this is Lawrence of Arabia. Right. This is an all-time classic historical drama that should consistently be seen in the format it was intended. You can watch it on TV at home but it's never gonna work as well as if you get a chance to see it on the big screen and people will always say that about it and people always say when I saw it it was so majestic it took my

breath away because that's how people, 60 years later, they still talk about Lawrence of Arabia this way. That's one way to view it. The alternative way, and this is possible, is is this how green was my valley? Which in 1941 won Best Picture. And it was a master in his prime coming off of beloved classics.

So John Ford had directed many films in the 1910s and 20s and 30s, but then he goes on this run of Stagecoach, Young Mr. Lincoln, Drums Along the Mohawk, and Grapes of Wrath. And he's sort of getting recognized after all of those movies, which are all canonical greats, for a sprawling epic in this, like, he's arrived moment. But he beat arrived moment. But... he beat Citizen Kane.

And Citizen Kane is the more aesthetically and intellectually daring movie. And Citizen Kane is the movie that is remembered, and how green is my valley is not. And the comp I will make... Mm-hmm. -...is the zone of interest. -...zone of interest. Yeah.

The Citizen Kane in this scenario. And Oppenheimer will be understood as a great movie that people liked, but the Zone of Interest is the movie that matters more now and forever. I think you know that I lean towards, towards option B, but that doesn't, and another argument being like, are we sure that Oppenheimer is what we want to pick? It's like, in general, are you sure the best picture winner

is the one that you want? More often than not, the Academy gets it wrong with respect to our tastes and to history. And we don't have that many best picture winners on this list. So I think I'm just more historically inclined to say, you know, that it's always be. But Lawrence of Arabia was a Best Picture winner. That's like every generation gets its...

Like Titanic did win Best Picture. Yeah. But like, it's not like how Green was My Valley is like looked down upon. No, that's my point. That's my point. And I do, I mean, ultimately that really comes at, that's a conversation about Zone of Interest and not Oppenheimer, you know? They are thematically linked in some ways. They are. And I, but, and I think Zone of Interest does have the, like, you know, the structural

and just like the filmmaking innovation that Citizen Kane, you know, makes sense as a comp. And it's also, I mean, they're all pretty dark looks at the world, but you know, Zone of Interest, well. It will be harder to revisit Zone of Interest from a pure film watching enjoyment perspective. It has a little bit less of the thrill that sits right in the,

like the end of the second act of this movie, where you get to the Trinity test and all of the powers of the movie are colliding, literally and figuratively. Zone of Interest, I've seen it a couple of times now. You know, it's a challenging movie. It is. It's a deep movie, it's a powerful movie.

It is like amazingly rendered and designed and it is more relevant now than it was when it came out. But I think I think about like something lasting in the culture, you know, it's all subjective, but it's an interesting thing to think about in the context of this. Then the other thing is, what about Nolan's future? Will this actually not be the culmination of his career? Is he actually going to do something even greater or even better? Or

will he have a precipitous fall? And will this seem like a blip? So you're just out on the Odyssey. No, I'm merely crafting questions for you. It's just like, of course you're out on Shakespeare and now Homer. I have never left Shakespeare and I never will. Thank you, Billy. Um, Homer. I like The Odyssey as a story. It's a good story.

It works. Definitely works. It's a guy and he's just looking for stuff. It's not a journey. Yeah. What is home? What is home? I've asked myself that before. Uh, is it possible that he is still going up? What is home? What is home? Yeah. I've asked myself that before.

Is it possible that he is still going up? Sure. Anything's possible. What do you think? Well, you know, it's, he did kickstart like a pretty interesting moment, both in like IMAX mania and we knew Nolan mania was there, but like the Odyssey is being covered regularly on Dumois. Like, I don't know what else to say to you about that, you know? Like, it has, this Christopher Nolan phase has gone past Reddit and movie lovers.

Um, and I think he's been quite keen about that, right? Like, he is just collecting all the movie stars and putting them all in his ensemble. So, I maybe as many people will go see it. That is like hard for me to imagine. You know, like I just can't, but we couldn't believe that people would sign up for a three hour epic about J. Robert Oppenheimer. $975 million, Oppenheimer made.

I know. The Odyssey has battles in it and monsters. That's true. Though the Odyssey like they did try to make people read it or at least read an abridged version of it in school once upon a time. You know? So I think there's some like homework distaste. Oh, interesting.

Yeah. You know, as opposed to all the fun of the atomic bomb. Well, I don't really like, you know, history classes don't ever get to that point, right? Like all history classes, they just run out of time. It's like May 31st and you've made it to World War II. We did get to World War II in my AP American history. We did, but like, I have to tell you, like, D-days. They yada yada'd it?

Like, they like, they D-dayed and then everything else, they yada yada'd it. They're like, we don't really have time to get into the complexities of this. Sounds like your teachers didn't know how to put together a syllabus. They should call me. I haven't mentioned that this movie is based on a book, a very good book called American Prometheus, The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer, written by Kai Bird and the late Martin Sherwin.

And he did have that to work from, but that's also part of why the movie is so good to me, is because that's a dense 600- page book about the man's entire life, and he's had to synthesize that way down. So a huge achievement. Any final thoughts you want to share about Oppenheimer before we do recommend it, if you like? I like this movie.

Okay, you have some misgivings. No, no, no, I don't. I don't. So this is a collaborative act. This is a collaborative act. This is a collaborative act. And this is where we met. And I think everything that we talked about that is amazing about this movie is amazing about this movie.

And the Dark Knight thing, not having a superhero movie on this list is interesting. And, like, I say that to you. I don't think that there are any five star masterpiece superhero movies. I just don't. I like a lot of them a lot. I mean, I definitely don't, but the Dark Knight is pretty good. And I think it could serve double as the Nolan entrant and the superhero entrant to me. What if, you know.

It could if you were, you know, if I had the strength of my convictions. You have a weekly podcast about Batman, which is one of the best shows here at the Ringer Podcast Network. It's called The Dark Knight Tests, and it's a woman's perspective on Bruce Wayne. And I'm a huge fan of the show.

I'm the executive producer on that podcast. And I've been happy to help you along the way. And for your 25 for 25 Batman related media list that you're doing, you could put Dark Knight at number one if you want. Sure. But unfortunately, I have to do Ben Affleck's cameo as Batman and The Flash at number one because I really thought he brought some emotional resonance. What about George Clooney's cameo as Batman and The Flash? I honestly, I didn't, I saw the Flash and I don't remember that.

Like, was I in the bathroom? We have gone a far afield here on this podcast. Recommended if you like, um, Citizen Kane. Yeah. Seems appropriate. Great man. Maybe not everything he was cracked up to be. Some second thoughts on his life.

Ah, Amadeus? Yeah. Thought Amadeus? Yeah. I thought Amadeus was pretty good. This was like kind of the best one I came up with, where I was like, the same energy, the same sense of grand drama. The scope and...

Yeah, it's warring factions. And loud and, yeah. Um, Lincoln? Yeah, sure. Not a fan of Lincoln? Well, I don't know whether Lincoln is really taking, like, an are we sure approach to Lincoln. You know what I mean?

Well, are we? Are we sure? Uh, Interstellar? are we sure approach to Lincoln. You know what I mean? With all respect. Are we sure? Interstellar, are we sure it's good? Sure. If you like any Christopher Nolan movies, then you will like the film Oppenheimer if you haven't seen it. Steve Jobs? Yeah, this is a good one. I mean, like this sort of thing. That's a real are we sure.

Is it good? No, like a suspicious, like, this is a great person with great ideas, but is he a great person? Well, but, you know, he makes the iPod for his daughter, so... He does. Thank God for that. Hopefully one day I can make an iPod for my daughter. And then I put The Brutalist on here. Yeah, of course. You seen The Brutalist? Good movie. Very good movie. Very good film. Any other thoughts?

It's really fun to make a show with you and also to learn about what your definition of compromise is. What do you mean? That's not fair. I've been very generous in this process. What if I just started doing like the whole kitty, like, you know, correcting the tense of the interrogator speech right now, just to close this out? I wish you luck, but in the meantime,

I would have you take in the sheets. That's what I would like you to do. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for, I would have you take in the sheets. That's what I would like you to do. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Not a coincidence. Happy Fourth of July weekend. That's good. I'll tell you something. You figured out the schedule just so. Today is our Independence Day.

There you go. Good job, Sean Fennessy. We'll be back next week with part two of our 2025 movie auction. We'll see you then.