The Big Picture - The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 18 - ‘Before Sunset’

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

Sean and Amanda return to continue their yearlong project of listing the 25 best movies of the 21st century so far. Today, they discuss ‘Before Sunset,’ the second installment of Richard Linklater’s beloved romantic trilogy starring Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpy. They talk about why this film is their favorite of the trilogy and the official selection from Linklater’s career, discuss what its legacy is at large, and how its performances helped shape the most romantic, emotionally incisive film of the century. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Jack Sanders This episode is sponsored by State Farm®️. A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.®️ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe show. That's right. I'm back to have the same in-depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games, the X's and O's, the drama, the playoffs are coming up. And now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're going to love. So make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen to your podcasts. Let's go. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about before sunset. And baby, you are going to miss that plane. Today we are talking about one of the most romantic movies ever made. It is directed by Richard Linklater. It is written by Richard Linklater, Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke, and it stars Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke. Now, Amanda, I must tell you. Yes.

I very recently did a rewatchables episode about this movie. You guys did Before Sunset? We did. We did Before Sunrise. I listened to Sunrise. And Before Sunset. I missed Sunset. I didn't listen to it. That's great. But I did listen to the first one.

I'm a fan of the rewatchables. That's wonderful. I am as well. I have talked about this movie at great length recently. So I don't want to bore you. I want you to be in charge. Okay. Well, what was the... What did you guys learn from your rewatchables before Sunset episode? I kind of just poured my heart out a little bit.

And, you know, I greatly identify with all of the, both of the characters in these films. And I'm a longtime disciple of the Linklater project. And this might just be my very favorite movie he's ever made. I think it's mine too. And I think that it's notable that it's mine over before sunrise. So tell me why.

So, and I rewatched both sunrise and sunset for this project, just because I hadn't seen sunrise in a while and because it's a, it is a deep pleasure just like to be in this world, at least the first two. I noticed, notably I did not revisit Before Midnight. And I have not revisited Before Midnight for the rewatchables or for this.

Maybe it's the best one and we're just too scared. We are currently in the Before Midnight era of our lives. Yeah. So, but I was thinking to myself, if Before Sunrise were eligible for this project, would we pick Sunrise or Sunset? And I know that I personally would pick Sunset because I think it's both like just a richer text and also more of a cinematic and performance feat, because the first one, which is,

if you haven't seen Before Sunrise, I really don't know what you're doing listening to this podcast or, you know, live and add in the world, but that's okay. It's about two young people, early 20s, who meet on a train on the way to Vienna. And one is an American, Jesse, played by Ethan Hawke. The other is a French woman, Celine, played by Julie Delpy. And they're thrown together on a train or they meet each other on the train

and they decide to spend the night together in Vienna, walking around Vienna before Jesse has to catch his plane back to the US. And I mean, it's like a landmark film, right? And it changes and it is incredibly- One of the key independent films of the 1990s in America, yes. And it really is just two young people talking in a very specific 90s way, link later way,

and taking all of the ideas and emotions and philosophical nonsense that is in their heads. And it's certainly in your head if you are like a hyper educatededucated 20-something in the 90s, and putting it into words and putting it on screen and making it very natural and, you know, memorializing not just like the connection that two people can have for like one magical moment in time, which is the setup of that movie and what's magical about it, but also kind of just like what two people talking at each other can really, really accomplish.

You know, it's like, it is a great- How it can be cinematic to just watch people talk. Yeah, and also that it can be like a real emotional connection. Like it is an achievement, it's one for the talkers. You know, it's not a coincidence that we love these movies. So it is- Professional yappers that they are.

Yeah, exactly, and people were like, more words are better, right? So, you know, it invents this franchise, it invents language. There is something like, so, they're so young and it is like, you know, first love, magical moments. The way the movie ends, very famously famously is that they don't exchange information and they agree to meet in six months on the same train platform. And if they show up, they show up, and if they don't, they don't.

And you don't know, right? So there is something like wonderfully romantic, just like a perfect movie. Which makes the fact that the sequel is so amazing and maybe even better, like even better somehow to me. Here's the thing, the first film has no conflict. Sure. Okay.

Maybe they don't always get along or see exactly eye to eye about things. Right. But it is a wander. It is a long discussion. Yes. Of two people who are learning who the other person is. Right. But it is a wander. It is a long discussion. Yes. And of two people who are learning who the other person is. Right. And learning who they are as well.

They're like two very unsure young people in the world. Yes. Figuring out who they are and being guided by the laws of attraction. Right. That's really what drives that movie. It's an amazing movie. I think it is. It's sublime.

It's very important to me. And as I know it is to you, and I think it's critical in the Ethan Hawke story, you know, even though he had been in big movies before this as a child actor, like, it totally reshapes, I think, his kind of heartthrob persona. All men fell in love with Julie Delpy. I don't know any straight men that don't want

to have a family with Julie Delpy. Like, she is just such an intoxicating person. The second film, though, is simply one of the great movies ever made about relationships and love. It is astounding how deep it is. Yeah. And it's an incredible setup, which is that nine years later, Jesse has written a book about this night and is giving a reading in Paris at the end of the, at the end of the book tour, and Celine shows up at Shakespeare & Co. And once again, like they wander

before he has to take his plane back to, but it's two people who had one magical night and then it didn't work out or it didn't and it didn't come back together. And so suddenly it's people later in life, lost love, lost connections, the road not traveled, dissatisfaction with their current life. Just like this incredibly deep, so much to work with stuff

that is like miraculously like built in because they have the first movie. Like it's magical. It's an ingenious way of telling a story. There have been other movies that have attempted to do this kind of thing. The most famous example is probably the documentary series Seven Up, which found people

every seven years caught up with them and talked, like sort of showed what their lives were and they talked about their experiences of the world and the way that time passing can change a person and change how they see the world or how they are walking through it. But to have a narrative structure that doesn't really have to think too much about plot. And then the other thing that I think elevates this movie over the first film is, even though Hawk and Delpy clearly contributed to their characters in Before Sunrise, they are credited screenwriters on this movie.

And they are both putting big parts of their real lives into these characters and the words that they are saying. And I'm not saying that that necessarily makes the movie better per se, but it makes it more meaningful to me. Because a lot of times when you're watching a movie, you're like, actors, this is a construct. This came from some guy sitting alone in a room,

he had an idea, he banged it out on a typewriter, they handed it to actors on the set, they learned their lines and then they say the lines and then they go home. This is a way more personal form of mainstream movie making. And that level of emotionality, you know, Hawk famously going through a divorce during the making of this movie. So many of the things that Jesse is saying about these ideas of like, obligation in the version of myself that I think I should be versus the version of myself that I

want. It's like for him to be so close to the bone on stuff like that, in a movie, that would open in thousands of movie theaters, is such a fascinating, like, hot experience of... And the same, I think, goes for Julie Delpy and her deep feelings of, like, the inability to love and not believing in love anymore, and not really finding the person

that makes her feel the way that she wants to feel, and she feels other people may have felt about her. There's this kind of desperation in these two people that has always been, from the moment I saw it, my wife and I saw it, we were not married, when it came out in 2004. I think we saw it at the Angelica. We'd been living in New York at that time for a few months.

And I remember vividly the trains, you know, the trains shaking at the Angelica. You can always feel the subway. And when the movie ended, this movie's 80 minutes long. More than one person screamed out like, no! Like, I don't want this to be over. Like, I can't, this can't be finished. I need to know what happens next. I need to follow these people. It's such a visceral movie going memory for me. Because everyone who is there, I don't know if it was an angelic audience, we'd all seen Before Sunrise,

but we were so invested. Yeah, it's true. It's rare to be that invested in a movie. I mean, I get it, you don't want it to be over. Though I do find, like, this is the greatest movie ending of our lifetimes. Maybe I rewatched it with my husband again the other night. And it was just like silent, wrapped, you know, when you're watching at home with someone else, you know, someone's got to go like do something or checking the, you know, answering a text message or whatever.

And I was just like the two of us, like, sitting in darkness, like, holding our breath through the entire last scene. There's, and it's like, it's so simple and electric, and the power of Julie Delpy is palpable. But it's not ambiguous to me, at least. I don't know, maybe you feel differently. You don't want it to end because it's so magical, but also, unlike before sunrise,

I don't feel like I have any questions about where things are headed. Well, did you feel that way before before midnight? Because the great reveal of before midnight, if you haven't seen it, I'm sorry, but it's like they not only got together, but they got together and stayed together. And they got married and they had a family.

Right. And... I guess, I mean, I'm... You wanted that to be true after Before Sunset. You wanted them to consummate. I'll be honest, like, I'm not really thinking about whether they have a family at the end of Before Sunset. No.

In like a happy way, you know? But they allow each other to be together. Yes. Because you think... So, okay. We'll continue. Well, I mean, it's just, it's all right there. The baby, you're going to miss that plane and then his smile.

And it's like, in that moment, it's like, you know, that they're going to like try to be together. And I'm, I'm from mom comp training, you know, like I don't actually need to think about the happily ever after, you know, we're good. Yep. But you know that, and as before midnight teaches us, like, you don't really want to all of the time.

But there is like an assurance in that ending that they're in the moment, they're together. There is for the most part, and I think that people scream no in Indian Angelica, not because they needed to know what happened next specifically, but because they just didn't want this feeling to end. Right, right, right, right. They didn't want to know,

certainly the final roughly eight minutes of the movie, once we get into Sling's apartment, they just teleport you to another place. And I totally relate to the like, I would say roughly the minute they get into the van To head back to sleep department that stretch of the movie the final whatever 20 or so minutes is just insanely brilliantly written staged Performed it is a lot. I'm never more locked into a movie than those sequences. I think you can say like This movie is 18 on our list Why is it not number one based on how rapturously we're talking about the movie?

It's a small film. It's a modest movie. Its aims are very discreet. I would say it nails all of them. I think just in terms of its ambition and its intimacy, like it does everything that it wants to do. I weirdly am a little lower on it now that Before Midnight has come around because what it has made me do is see the ways in which their love was flawed in this movie.

So because they have a tumultuous marriage. Right. And we know that a lot of the things that I can see in revisiting the film and this is, you know, this doesn't take away from the quality of the movie, but it's my relationship to it. Yeah, also, this is like your materialist, like, spreadsheet hat coming on a little bit. A little bit, perhaps. But in this movie, Jesse is desperate to sleep with Celine.

And he is so horny and, like, so forward throughout the film. And he is like that in the first film too, but he is really hot for her in this movie, in part because he says he hasn't been late in a really long time. Right. And you can see that that's actually not ultimately a good motivator for making

big changes in your life. Yes. And she is a person who has lost the ability to feel like she can love anymore. And so this occurrence that she allows to happen by going to Shakespeare and Company, is her like kind of desperate attempt, it's kind of like her last ditch effort in a way

to be like, can I find the sort of romantic love that I truly seek? And it's ill-fated in a way. Yeah, sort of. I mean, I think so. I mean, he did also like write a book about her, you know? So it's her and she's like, she says she read the book twice. And I was

like, it really screwed me up. And also you idealized it. So I need to come like confront Do you believe that? Anyway, I can I feel like she's just playing a game the first 16 minutes of this movie with him. Because she doesn't want to reveal herself. She's embarrassed. She's annoyed by what he did. Game is ungenerous. I think that she is protective to your point of, she has just cut herself off from the world

and is like an also intensely neurotic French person. And so is not letting any emotions come out. And I mean, like, and also like is a character. Like she is just, you know. Yeah, she's kooky. Baddie and kooky and in the most mesmerizing, enchanting way. But so it's not until the car ride that she really,

that either of them actually let their guard down. What does he call her? A manic depressive communist? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Game is probably ungenerous, but particularly her failing to remember they had sex that

night. Right. Well, yeah, that was purposeful. And then revealing. And she was like, this is something women do. She's seeking to kind of control the temperature of the engagement. Yes, for sure. And she's trying to do that so that she can protect herself. Right. But deep down, we know that she wants something because so that she can protect herself. Right. But deep down, we know that she wants something

because she says she can no longer access something. And so I think what I'm saying is, this is an obvious point, and I'm sorry to belabor it, but the sourness of the third film, which is a really good movie, Yeah. has taken something away from my first experience of this movie. And that was the intention of Before Midnight.

Sure. It worked. They did the thing that they meant to do. But I was so starry-eyed at the end of this movie the first time I saw it. And so swept away by that feeling. And despite whatever, like, spreadsheet king stuff you want to say or whatever, like, cynical stuff, like, I am ultimately very romantic at heart. I was also going to say, but that's your high school

sweetheart, like, absolutely coming in as well. There gonna say, but that's your high school sweetheart. Like absolutely coming in as well. There is there, you know, you contain multitudes. But so I think that it like, it has made me just a little embittered about how is like, is the takeaway like none of that is real that like actually, and of course it is like, that's the most mature sophisticated way

of thinking about it is there are no great, you know, subjects of sonnets and there is no true, you know, soul-made-ish experience in the universe. We're all, we're doing the best with what we have. A thing that really stuck out to me on this rewatch, and I've seen this movie a bunch of times, was the Julie Delpy of it all in this movie. And I mean, he is obviously great and wonderful, but this movie is centered around, Celine is like the one that got away,

quote unquote, which is like a time honored, film, music, literature trope, to the point that he has literally written a book about the one that got away. And this movie in a lot of ways is in her character and her like kookiness and her closed off-ness and everything that Julie Delby is doing is like, maybe not like undermining it, but forcing the Jesse character to enact, you know, interact with the real version of the one that got away, which is sort of like interesting.

There's movies and then there's real life. And there's like how you imagined it in your head and then like how it is. So for me, it's not that it turns sour or something. It's that I think that the movie and the construct has some idea of what happens in real life versus what happens in the movies. But then the neat trick of it is that it also then does give you

like a truly romantic, like just in the movies, ending which is like what we all want, you know? Like that is like why we go to the movies. So I guess I don't feel like it's taken away from me just because things, you know, real life happens in Before Midnight because real life is sort of happening in this movie too. I mean, they're both kind of losers, you know? It's an interesting way to think about it. Like I think that this movie does a really good job of showing that one person can be many things.

In the case of Jesse, he is... a successful novelist. He wrote a book, it got published, he's on a book tour in Europe. Right. That's pretty good. In 2004, though. Sure. I mean, you know, different scene, but...

Yeah, I mean, you know, no judgment on the publishing industry in 2025. But I, he did what he set out to do, which is to be a writer and he published a novel. Right. He's also seemingly a bad husband. Yeah. And has like real classic like Texas horn dog instincts, at least around this woman. Yeah. He's also clearly like a very sincere father.

He might be a bad writer. Yeah. That's in play. Yes. But I think he's also a pretty sophisticated thinker about the experience of life. Well, yeah. And both of those things can be true. And so he's just, he's a full person.

He's not, and the exact same thing is true of Celine. Celine is incredibly nervy. She is a little bit emotionally distant at this stage of her life. She's also wildly empathetic and thinks of the world and people beyond herself. She's artistic and creative. Principled. And she's ethical. Yeah.

And she's also like kind of a pain in the ass and a little bit nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's morose and depressive and she's baddie. Right. And yet, when I look at them, I'm like, these are the ideal partners. Like, this is the masculine and feminine ideal. And it results in, like you said,

I thought you put that perfectly. It's just like, it still gives you the perfect movie magic ending. Right. Even though when you're watching the movie, I'm like, this bitch is crazy. Like, you know, and I'm like, Jesse. Well, like, Jesse, he's got to get out of his own head. This is pathetic. Yeah.

And I think that that makes them relatable and also perfect and the kind of like pedestal that we like to do with movie stars and with great characters like this, like it all applies. And it's also done really, really in a really sophisticated way wise, where lots of long takes, long walk and talks. There are walk and talks in the first film, but there's much more cutting. It doesn't feel like this, it feels much more documentary style in this movie to me. And I don't know, it feels, it honestly feels like they're having the conversation. That's the thing that I take away from this is it does not feel performed. It feels like they

are just saying what's on their mind. And that idea that what's in their lives was pumped into the dialogue of the films, makes me feel like I'm watching their podcast. Yeah. And I love it. Sure. But in Paris, I mean, cause that's the other thing. On the streets of Paris. It is literally just.

Should we do that? Should we relocate the pod to the streets of Paris? I would love to. I knew you would. It would be great. But I mean, yes, it's just... International landmarks pop up in the background of literally like half the scenes. It's a miracle. It's really very special.

Yeah, he's like, oh, Notre Dame. Yeah, when they get on a bateau mouche. Yeah. And she's like, oh, I've never done this before. It's been a long time since I've been in Paris. Yeah. You're going soon. I am, yeah. When are you going?

Uh, end of August, right before I go to the Venice Film Festival. That's very exciting. I know, I'm really, really quite excited. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Life is all about choices. For example, what happens when you show up at the movies and you're not totally sure what you want to see? Maybe Final Destination, Bloodlines, maybe Lilo and Stitch. You've gotta make a choice.

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Do you have road not taken thoughts? Do you mean romantically or... I don't think so. Not really. It's real dub-nub energy. Everything I've done is correct. I was just trying't think so, not really. It's real dub-nub energy. Everything I've done is correct. I was just trying to think about, I guess there's one other person I could have married,

but then I would be like, I don't know. That would be a bad scene. And I might live somewhere that, I don't wanna offend anyone listening, but I don't know. Like it's... Wow. Your ex is listening to this show? It's pretty wild. No, I met like the people wherever other people live. I think I would be living and I would be like a little more trad wife, you know?

Cobb County, Georgia? No, no, no, no. Okay. Absolutely never. You know I'm going to Georgia next week. I know. Yeah. And you will be staying in Cobb County because you love it and you love the people there. Not the case. I'll be staying in Cobb County because you love it and you love the people there. Not the case. I'll be staying in your truest park watching the New York Mets. Right.

Combat the Atlanta Braves. Do you have any road not taken? No. I dated a couple of people in a very short interim time before my wife and I got back together, but no, I was never really invested in anything else besides that. I mean, professionally, I probably have like a thousand. Yeah, well, sure. Like it's really, this is a real one in a million where I landed in my life. So in that respect.

With my personal life, no, I mean, have kids, not have kids. That's like another example. That's an element of this movie is that Hawk having a child, his character, Jesse having a child, makes him feel confined to this life that he's chosen, which is a crazy thing to say out loud because he, of course, has two children with a woman who he's no longer married to. Right. I mean, I also argue that just in the context of the character, like, don't say it out loud, even if you feel that way.

That's what it is. Is that both characters keep saying things out loud. That you're not supposed to say. That you're not supposed to say. Yeah. Which is how a movie works. It is, but somehow this is better. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I don't know why it's better. Is it better writing? Is it better performance? I think it's both. Is it these movies came to us at the right time in our lives? I guess so. We're like 10 years behind them every single time.

Which I think is helpful. I remember that, I know I told my dad that Before Sunset was the next one. He audibly groaned. Uh, I guess it's not Barry Levinson's Ten Men. Sorry, Dad. Ten Men. Uh... We talked about this with Bill on the before pods,

and Bill is roughly the same age as Hawk, and I think Linklater's a little older than him, but he was watching these movies as these things were happening to him. And I think he related to Jesse, but sometimes it can be too close, whereas it was easier for me to be like idealized who that person was. You know, it's like when you meet like an older kid in school

and you're like, how does that kid know how to do all that stuff? Right, right, right. And do I want to do it that way or can this happen? But when you get older than these people, these characters, and they stay this age forever, you're like, why is he such a loser? I didn't think he was a loser in 2004. I don't think I, yeah, I don't think I really did either.

And well, I think I probably thought of him more in the, in the story, the Ethan Hawke tradition of, um, of Troy and, uh, you know, just like hot losers. You know, and we're like being a loser is like part of the, especially like in the 90s, you know, not like totally having your act together as part of the charm. Yeah. I never could, I, I-

Yeah, no, it's such a thing. It's just not my thing. Yeah, yeah. And like, ultimately it's not my thing, but like if, he worked that appeal, and so you could see it. But now he's just a loser. I saw Before Midnight like right when Zach

and I first got together. So that's really like, well, that won't happen. You know, that's like, they made some bad choices. Yeah. But I have not seen it since, so I don't know. I guess it does happen. I gotta go back to Before Midnight. What if we watch it and we're like,

oh, it should have been before midnight? Well, let's talk about the Linklater movies that we didn't pick. Because it's pretty safe to say there was always going to be a Linklater movie on this list. You know, his, probably his most iconic films to this show are this trilogy and Dazed and Confused. So Dazed and Confused is obviously not eligible. Right. But then you look in the 2000s, and this is an interesting time to be talking about him

because he's got two movies coming out this year. Let's just go through his movies, why not? Waking Life, Tate, School of Rock, Before Sunset, Bad News Bears, Scanner Darkly, Fast Food Nation, Me and Orson Welles, Bernie, Before Midnight, Boyhood, Everybody Wants Some, Last Flag Flying, Where'd You Go Bernadette, Apollo 10 1son Welles, Bernie, Before Midnight, Boyhood, Everybody Wants Some, Last Flag Flying, Where'd You Go Bernadette, Apollo 10 and a Half, and Hitman.

Now he's been incredibly active in this time. He's made almost 20 movies in this century. And some of them are just clear, like Mrs., you know, like didn't totally turn out the way that they were in Fast Food Nation, me and Orson Welles. Those movies have things to recommend about them, but they're not in the upper echelon. School of Rock is his biggest hit. And I think it's probably the movie that he is best known for in the generation below

us. It was recently recommended to me that I show Knox School of Rock and that that movie really does hit with the children. Makes a ton of sense given your son's musical gifts. Well, oh, thank you. That's very kind. But just also that it is for people younger than us. It matters.

As in small children. Yes. It matters. It very much matters. And I like it perfectly fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Boyhood is the most acclaimed movie that is made this century. I wasn't really going to make a bid for Boyhood, though I know I like it a lot more than you do.

Yeah. I haven't revisited in a while, but I have a similar feeling when I watch that movie as what I feel when I watch Before Sunset, which is that this feels very real to me. Well, sure. I mean, it's a similar undertaking and that it is an experiment with how to demonstrate time

and someone's life and maturing like over time on film. And, you know, the project with Boyhood was that they just, they filmed it every year and released it all at once versus before the Before Trilogy, which they're doing it every nine years. But same idea. I just think that the Before trilogy turned out better. You know? I just... Is there any other movie in that run? Everybody wants them. I think that that's the one that you, like, annotated on the list. Because you had a phase where we had a list, and then you were just playing devil's advocate.

And your devil's advocate was everybody wants them. I would never say I like everybody wants him more than before sunset. But it's powerful. It is very powerful. Yeah. To me, it is the origins of Glenn. Oh, absolutely. That's where we met him, right?

Yes. Uh, I met him on, uh, what was that? Fox show Scream Queens. That was the first time I ever saw him. Oh. Yeah, which he was very funny on that show. Not Spy Kids 3? Not, mm, I probably.

Jack, you Spy Kids 3? Not Spy Kids 3 specifically, but I am a fan of the Spy Kids franchise. OK, good. Good to know. Um, this is pretty, pretty, pretty comfortably the right choice. Yeah, we didn't, there was not a lot of discussion. It was not a big fight. Not a lot of. This is pretty comfortably the right choice.

There was not a lot of discussion. It was not a big fight. Not a lot of... So what really is its legacy then? Because it's obvious why it made the list, right? It's these performers at their best. It's this great screenwriting. It's this very simple but gorgeously executed direction.

Right. It's a movie that speaks to a lot of people in a very deep way. But like, is it a big movie forever? I don't know. Well, this is the movie that turns the before trilogy from just like a romantic 90s movie to an actual, like to a project. A proper trilogy. But it also brings in the larger ideas

of what if you follow these people over time and what if you watch it at different phases of your life. So, and like he does this before boyhood, even though I guess they'd been filming boyhood for a while. Anyway, then it introduces this type of very Linklater style experiment of filmmaking and this interest of his, both in his film. Again, people haven't ripped this off exactly,

but there's a lot of movies where people are talking together and falling in love. What do you mean? We're about to see Robert Downey Jr. in another Marvel film. It's been a 15 year odyssey of following Tony Stark turned Victor Von Duhme. Same thing. But this has become a reference for other people making movies. Yeah, I agree. I think he kind of found the perfect vessel for his ideas of time

and time's passage. The Before Midnight was 2013. So it had been nine years between sunrise and sunset and nine years between sunset and midnight. And now it has been 12 years and there's no sign that another movie is coming. In fact, Linklater one has another movie with Hawk, his first since boyhood, Blue Moon coming out

later this year. And two, he's in the middle of another durational movie project. Right, right, right. Marilee, we roll along. Yes, which is taking place over 20 years. And I don't know, what's up? What's up with Celine and Jessie?

What is there, Lucy? I'm at peace not knowing. I'm opposite. You are. Of the Angelica people. Yeah, because- Don't you want to know how to live in your fifties? No, man, I feel like I just got to get through it and then I'm on lock, you know?

If I make it to 55, or I don't know how old I'll be when Cy goes to college, God bless him. Will they have colleges then? You don't know. You won't be able to afford them, that's really the problem. Honestly, maybe Cy will be't be able to afford them. That's really the problem. Honestly, maybe Cy will be a prodigy. Okay?

That's a good point. If he's Doogie Howser, that's great news. Yeah, that's great news for everyone. No, I feel like it'll be cool. And if it's not cool in- You think being in your 50s will be cool? Yeah. To your point about before sunrise having no conflicts, what will the conflict be once the kids are gone?

And the logistics are out. That's when it all really starts. He talks about this in the movie. I guess. He says, I don't want to be one of those guys who gets divorced at 52 and spends all my time thinking about what was it all for? What did I do with my life? Yeah. Well, I mean, I agree with him. If you're gonna get divorced, get divorced earlier. Why is that important? Because then you haven't wasted all the time. But like, you know, at 58 or however I'll be,

if Zach and I wanna like be doing different things, then I think we should just like go do different things and have dinner at the end of the day. And that'll be nice. You know, I'm not too stressed about it. Interesting. Okay, so you guys will not be like parasailing together. I will never learn to golf.

Let me say that right now. I will literally never learn to golf. Let me ask you a question. Yeah. Why? Uh, it seems boring and I don't like being bad at things. Well, you know that. Let's put it in the right order, please.

Do you think that that's a revelation that we're making that I don't like being bad at things? No, I just like hearing you say it out loud. Yeah, I don't. So that seems, and that's the point of golf, as I understand it, is to be outside with your friends and then just like, to be eternally frustrated by it. That seems like the worst plan ever. But how nice is it to be outside with your friends?

That is nice, but I will just have a cocktail. Would you ride along in the cart with him? No. Why? What's wrong with that? No, listen, I wish that you would be together. No, that's what I'm saying. He can go do his thing and then I'll go do my thing and then we'll have a nice

dinner and talk about our day. Okay. That seems good. That's, that's great. I feel that you need Before Dawn, which is the final installment of this film, so you can know how to live in your 50s. I think I'm doing okay. Okay.

What else? Like, legacy... You made such a beautiful list. Oh, I thought you were doing the movies if you like. Oh, well, we'll get there momentarily. Any other, like, legacy notes for this film? You know, Delpy has not really been terribly present. She's very present at the Hollywood farmers market where I see her on a fair occasion. But you know, she's made, she's directed a few films in the last ten years.

I liked her Two Days in Paris. Is that what it's called? She did Two Days in Paris and Two Days in New York. Yeah, Two Days in New York in Paris was very funny. Yes, Two Days in New York was the Chris Rock movie. That sounds right. She's directed a couple films that I don't think were released in the United States, Two Days in New York in Paris was very funny. Yes, Two Days in New York was the Chris Rock movie. That sounds right. She's directed a couple of films that I don't think were released in the United States, but she has not really been as much of a linchpin

in Hollywood productions. Hawk's interesting. He's had quite an arc. We talked about him a little bit during our Paul Newman Hall of Fame episode because he directed that six-part documentary about Newman and Woodward's life. Still obviously a huge part of movies and television right now. He's in that very short list of greatest podcast guests in the universe.

I was honestly about to say one of the greatest watch guests of all time. He's just an awesome talker. Yeah. And... I mean, the documentary in a lot of ways is like video podcasts with a lot of archival and research. Him riffing with Billy Crudup and... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

...and his other acting buddies. Is he underrated as an actor? Overrated? I don't even know how to think about him because he didn't do the thing where he was like, I need to be at the center of every movie. You know, he didn't pursue that traditional mainstream stardom thing. He was always willing to take chances. He was always willing to play number two to some big stars,

Training Day being the most famous example, got himself an Oscar nomination. He's going to be this year in The Black Phone 2. And he has had this tradition of making... What's the set up of that again? He plays a child murderer who locks kids in his basement. But then what is the Black Phone? Where... The Black Phone sends a call out into the...

Oh, okay. Into the world, into the... And in the second film, I think it's like into the world of the undead. Oh. He met a grisly end in the Black Phone. Okay. And so I think he's being connected to whatever, from hell. Oh, got it. So the Black Phone calls him.

We'll see. We'll have to check out the film. But he's been using these horror movies to kind of like fund his directorial projects or his TV stuff. I mean, he like Linklater came of age in the 90s, like, Indies scene. And even, you know, in Reality Bites, which was more mainstream, but he plays, like, the Houston, like, angry, like, deadbeat, really hot loser. And has, like, sort of stayed...

stayed in that lane. I mean, even as he is in big budget movies or whatever, he's not a superhero. He's never been like, and now I will like have my Cary Grant moment. He's still sort of, you know, 90s slacker, but not like slacker in a, he's very ambitious and works a lot, but he's staying on the edge of things. I think you're forgetting his role in the TV series Moon Knight. I never saw that, so it doesn't exist to me. Okay.

He played Arthur Harrow. Is that the one? That's not a superhero. That's Star Wars, right? He's a cult leader in an avatar of Amit. Oh, no. It's Marvel. He's a cult leader in an avatar of Amit.

Was he a superhero though or a villain? He was a villain. I think if you- But they blurred the line in Moon Knight. Kind of an anti-hero situation. Well, of course, yeah, there we go. You know, only the most complex work for you. Do you know who played Moon Knight?

Oscar Isaac? That's right. Yeah, no, I mean, that was part of the... You should go home today and watch every episode of Moon Knight. See how it goes. Let me know if you enjoy it. I'll meet you at the potluck afterwards. I think playing a villain is different

than playing the superhero, you know? Okay, fair enough. Recommended if you like. You think playing a villain is different than playing the superhero, you know? Fair enough. Recommend it if you like. You made such a wonderful little list of all my favorite movies. So why don't you just read them? I will do that. Brief Encounter, David Lean's masterpiece. Very important movie for my wife and I, no surprise.

This is a big one for Before Sunset Heads. Jules and Jim, of course. I wrote The Notebook. You know, if you're just a basic of course. I wrote The Notebook. You know, if you're just a basic boy and you know about The Notebook, but you don't know about Before Sunset, give this movie a whirl.

You're not basic, you're open to your emotions if you know about The Notebook. If you only read People magazine and this is your first ever podcast, welcome to podcasts, welcome to the big picture. Congrats on having seen The Notebook. Give Before Sunset a try. Past lives.

Yeah. We've just spoken about materialists on this podcast. And that's a good fit. Pride and Prejudice. The Joe Wright 2005. That was the one I was thinking of. You know, you saw their remaking it. As a film?

I think as they're doing a TV series again on Netflix after the BBC series with Colin Furze and Jennifer Ealy. I know. I agree. Sleepless in Seattle? Great. Great call. Frances Ha? Love it. Anything else you want to add to that? It's a pretty robust collection of films. I mean, no, because I was like, well, that's every movie I love, basically. Who are these people who are like, I'm really into Frances Hoppett,

I've never heard of before Sunset, that I've imagined? Do they exist? Maybe. And then what a wonderful day for them. You know? So there's a scene in this movie, and I did talk about this on the rewatchables episode, but just kills me every time. Which is they're in the van, in the back of the van. And she's just had a really like very frustrated moment

where she's mad at him and she wants to get out of the car. Right. Convinces her to stay. And she has her moment and then it shifts to him and he's in a real sadness. He starts talking about his dreams. Right. He has two recurring dreams with her.

Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And he's like, you're at the train station, you're on the platform and you go by, you go by, and you go by. And he starts telling the story of the other dream. which is that she's naked in bed pregnant. And he touches her ankle. And he turns and he looks out the window and she reaches for him to touch him. And just as she's about to make contact with him, he turns back and she pulls her arm away. And when I saw it the first time and when I saw it last night, I was like, this is the most emotionally powerful thing I've ever seen in a movie.

Yeah. I am devastated by this tiny little action. And to me, like that is the ultimate legacy of the movie is that in these small moments, it communicates something so strong that hits you. Like I was crying watching the movie last night. I'm also thinking of Julie Delpy's face in that moment. And she, that also like tears up and looks like a little, like shocked, but is like hit by the emotional blunt force

of the, it's really amazing. This is a great film. Yeah. Is it too high on the list or too low? Whatever. What's done is done. Shh. Very well.

Thank you to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Later this week we will watch the zombies of 28 years later. We'll see you then.