The Big Picture - The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 19 - ‘Spirited Away’

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

Sean and Amanda return to continue their yearlong project of listing the 25 best movies of the 21st century so far. Today, they discuss Hayao Miyazaki’s masterpiece, ‘Spirited Away’: the wonderful 2002 animated fantasy film, which features an unbound representation of what it feels like to be a child. They talk about what they make of Chihiro as an unusual main character figure, celebrate the huge technical achievement in its stunning animation, and explore how its “perfect movie status" is defined by its singularity. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe show. That's right. I'm back to have the same in-depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games, the X's and O's, the drama, the playoffs are coming up. And now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're gonna love so make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen to your podcast. Let's go! I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about Spirited Away. We finally have an animated film on our list. Amanda, how are you feeling about that fact? I feel great. Jack, our producer, was like, I don't know what the argument against Spirit Away would be. And that's not the point of this series that we're doing. No arguments. There are no arguments.

What a beautiful film. We've had some complicated conversations about animation on this show over the years, but recently, well, it means that Chris doesn't watch them. And you will watch them. But not with intensity. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's not my preferred, like, format, what would we call it? Of, you know, it's not even genre.

Yeah, style of filmmaking. But I think it's pretty hard to argue with this as a, as a visual masterpiece and as a, you know, a way of telling a story that could only be told through animation. That's, I think, the biggest reason why I will, I'll spoil the fact that this is our only animated film on the list. You've been getting a little, like,

nervous about spoilers in the last few. Well, some things I want to share and some things I don't. So anybody who's earmarking a space for a film like WALL-E or a film like UP or The Incredibles, you know, like... They're out. Coco out. Never even on the short list or the long list. I have a soft spot for Ratatouille,

and I think there was a version of this list where I would have made a bid for it, but I would never have made it at the expense of a Hayao Miyazaki film. And Miyazaki's made a few movies in this century. If I had my druthers, I think My Neighbor Totoro and Princess Mononoke would be... Your picks?

...my all-time Miyazaki picks, but those are films that predate the 21st century. Those, yeah, those are not eligible for this. I do think when we were putting the list together, Those are not eligible for this. I do think when we were putting the list together, my inclusion was any Miyazaki film that you want, but I assume it will be Spirit of the Red.

That is what you wrote, and that is where we landed. And that was where, that was like the only animation slot that was available. Miyazaki, one of the, maybe at the top of the inarguable leaderboard of filmmakers, along with like Spielberg and Coppola and a very short list of filmmakers for whom the industry has kind of rallied around him over the last 40 or so years since he's been making films. Somebody who is widely acknowledged to have pushed the style of filmmaking forward, storytelling forward, but also somebody who's heavily indebted to the 100-plus year history of cinema

and even the hundreds of years, history, centuries, history of storytelling. And I think he's kind of an interesting person in the aftermath of our classics conversation, Amanda Classics, because this movie is very indebted to the history of fairy tale. Um, so Spirited Away is a film that came out in 2001, but not in America. In Japan, it came out in 2001 and was, very quickly became the highest grossing movie in the history of Japanese cinema. It only recently, I think in 2020, got knocked off by a Demon Slayer film, which I know you saw in theaters during

COVID. And this movie was an absolute phenomenon, which on the one hand, I think makes sense because it's arriving at that moment. You could probably compare it to sort of like the Jurassic Park moment in Steven Spielberg's career where it's like, he's done this five or six times in a row now. There's a lot of anticipation for the film. The film's also hugely defined by its point of view on Japan at that time in history and its relationship to sort of like where it was in the 80s and 90s and what it was becoming in the 21st century. And it's also a movie that appeals widely to very young people all the way to very old people. It's a movie literally about life and death and everything

in between those spaces. So this was a huge movie in Japan. And I think it's a fitting movie to add to our list because even though it is not the first film that was brought to America, Miyazaki film that was brought to America, is kind of the signature movie that was brought to America. John Lasseter, who was working at Pixar at the time, was a massive fan of Miyazaki and a friend, Michael Eisner encouraged him, hey, maybe we should distribute this movie. And they did. They brought it over to America and made a good amount of money and it won the best animated feature at the Academy Awards. I think that not that win specifically, but that conversion makes it a nice tidy entry into our list because I think it, without a movie like this, I'm not sure if we get

to the place where Parasite wins Best Picture, for example. I see it as an interesting link in the chain of the globalization or internationalization of cinema in the United States. Because even though this movie was dubbed when it was released here, the storytelling style, the way that it looks, the names of the characters,

this was an introduction to a lot of people at a very young age to Japanese storytelling. I was gonna say the other part of it is really the generational aspect because I do think, like, Miyazaki films became so huge to kids about 10 to 15 years younger than us. Exactly. Hi, Jack. You know, hi, Bobby. Hi, everyone. Who were experiencing them at a very particular age

and an age where many of the characters are, you know, their age as well. But so it opens up not just animation to them, but also world cinema. And even a little bit, like, you know, being a film bro. You know, that you're going in, like, with a... The cult-y quality of movies. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that persists. Miyazaki and the Studio Ghibli films,

I think exist in this unusual liminal space between Disney and film bro cult. There is an entire amusement park dedicated to the world of Studio Ghibli. There is all kinds of merchandise that you can buy. And yet, these are still sort of boutique films, and they're not serialized in any way. They're inspired by stories, but they're not necessarily adaptations of stories. It's not Marvel or Aladdin and Aladdin 2 and then the live action Aladdin. There is something kind of, you know, contained about the individual movie experiences of

them. And yet there is a stylistic thing about Miyazaki's hand-drawn animation and even the animation of the other filmmakers who work at Ghibli that does feel like it is part of like an industrialized machine, you know, even though it's humans that are making this work for the most part. Right. But it's like it is a house style that has become readily identifiable and like, forgive me for bringing corporate terminology into this, but like a brand on its own. And there are people that like, they are heavy into the merchandising,

speaking of the Disney of it all, but it is, it is like boutique or like art house merchandising for whatever reason. It's a, it's a funny, it's a funny, especially given the topic of most of the films, you know, that they're straddling those worlds just so. It's a funny, especially given the topic of most of the films. Yes. That they're straddling those worlds just so. Yeah, I mean, the why of this film on the list is pretty wide-ranging. I do think that this happened after we determined that this movie would make the list,

but the AI studio Ghibli style that emerged just a few weeks ago, we're recording this in May of 2025, was a reminder of how these, like the co-optation, I think, of art into these machine-like systems persists as relevant, is obviously a little bit gross and dangerous. The idea of like the office of the president using the Studio Ghibli AI

transmitter to create versions of the stories that he wants to tell is kind of unfortunate and probably would make Miyazaki want to kill himself, but is also kind of an inevitability of the power of the work that he was making that it found its way across the world, across generations, all over the place. And I find that really fascinating because while I've always, you know, enjoyed Miyazaki films since the first ones I saw, and I would imagine this is one of if, this is probably the first one that I saw. I probably saw this in college, but not in a movie theater. But since I've been watching these movies,

I don't mean this in a pejorative way at all, but these are weird movies. Yeah. You know, I know that you were getting more acquainted with them when The Boy and the Herring came out and Miyazaki had this kind of huge second wave in America and won another Oscar. And then Porko Rosso came into my house. And then Porko Rosso.

And so, like, you know, I live in the world, and that is a far less weird movie than this movie. Yes. Which is, like, fantastical. And, like, it's, I think it's okay that it's weird. It is supposed to be like a strange and exciting fairy tale. And so all of the creatures and the things that the creatures do and the way that they,

the way that the main characters make their decisions or interact in the world is like supposed to be a little unusual. It has some Grimm's fairy tale. Those things are weird too. The imaginary world does not always have to be this Disney pink, everything's happy things. Your imagination can get funky too. It's true.

I think the film is really firmly rooted in a handful of other Disney classics. Alice in Wonderland, of course, and Lewis Carroll's writing is obviously a huge influence on this movie. Pinocchio and the kind of transmogrification of children. The like, the thin line between human and beast that movie really explores. Peter Pan, I think is obviously also hugely important just in terms of kind of flying

and transporting to a Never Neverland kind of space and also the sort of creatures that can communicate in ways that you would never expect them to in the human world. One thing that separates, I think, those movies from this one in particular is this is a movie that even if it is not explicitly about death, it is very much about the space between life and death, the spirit world. And that is very heady. And as the parent of a toddler, you know, we've had a couple of death conversations recently, and a movie like this kind of confronts you with some of those concepts because of the loss of parents early in the story. And a movie like this kind of confronts you with some of those concepts because of the loss of parents early in the story. And we should say that this is a story about a young 10-year-old girl named Chihiro who

is moving with her parents to a new home in a new town. She's left her school, she's left her friends. They're on a car trip at the beginning of the movie. They pass by this sort of collection of stones that represent past lives. And they're headed off to their new house. And on their way there, her father takes a shortcut and they go into this kind of backwoods area and they come upon an abandoned amusement park.

But then strangely at the abandoned amusement park, there's food. Right. Seems like food that has recently been prepared and her parents as representatives of the metaphorical, greedy, westernized. Her parents driving outy. Yes. Post eighties Japanese, um, gorge themselves and transform into pigs. And when they transform into pigs, this world becomes a new world.

It transforms into the spirit world and Chihiro goes on a magical adventure. Right. That is sometimes gross, sometimes scary, sometimes beautiful, sometimes profound. But... Sometimes random. It's odd. I mean, I think it's very, very, I think that's sort of what I'm getting at is that... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That the rules don't follow any sort of basic real life logic. And you're like, oh, so that's how this is? Like, okay. Yeah, and that's also true. That's okay. Yeah, it's also true in other Miyazaki movies, but this one in particular, I think feels like a head trip.

It feels like someone is having a dream. You know what I mean? Yes. Where there's like, there's blank spots in the dream. There's blank spots in the logic of how the world works. And the more times that you watch it, the more you can kind of see what the connective tissue is for each storyline

and what each character represents. And it can be understood as a deeply metaphorical movie. But Miyazaki has said this is a movie for 10-year-old girls. He wrote it for 10-year-old girls that he knew at a certain time in his life that he was inspired by the manga books that those girls were reading and that he wanted to kind of transport some of his interest in fairy tale to those girls. But Chihiro is not like a typical girl character, I would say. Like, what do you make of her as a figure in this story? I, you know, I just want to hug her the whole time because as the parent of toddlers, you immediately put yourself into this, but she's, she is willful,

but like, she means she was a but like, she means she was a little less, um, she was a little more scared and a little more uncertain than the like typical hearty, like YA protagonist that would like we've been sold for the last 15 years. Like she is, she's, you know, vulnerable even at the same time as she is like really focused on getting her parents back and doing whatever tasks she needs to do and observing the world and making the connections and but and and like I guess sticking out for herself in their right moment But there's a lot of like I can't and I don't know how to do that And what am I supposed to do and this sense that this really is a like a small kid who?

Doesn't totally know how to function without her parents. Yeah, she's supposed to do and this sense that this really is like a small kid who doesn't totally know how to function without her parents. Yeah, she's kind of has some of the defiance and petulance that you'll find in a young girl, you know, like I really identify closely some of the stuff that she is doing, but also that sense of confusion and some frustration and being taken advantage of in certain experiences and basically like learning what it's like in the real world, even while it's happening inside of a fantasy world.

One of the things that distinguishes the movie is Miyazaki's animation style is widely claimed, but this movie maybe more than any other is like the pinnacle of what he does in terms of like color, things that are happening. I wanted to talk to you about this specifically. You have identified athletic filmmaking as like potentially a bit of a crutch for certain filmmakers. Right. They're being too showy. Well, they're like...

The camera is their toy. And they're more interested in like what they can do with their toy and like where the camera can zoom and go than actually using it to create an image or to further a story in like a meaningful way. Like the camera is the story. Right. And animation is different in that respect.

Obviously the camera can move and does move and animated features, but in hand-drawn, he's more often focused on the frame, on the still space and then everything that he can fit inside of it. So you can watch this movie a few times and see something different in every corner of every action. And this isn't essential to enjoying the movie. But when you think about the amount of work that goes into making a movie that feels that way, that is drawn by hand, this is like a huge

achievement. You know, most animated movies that you watch in the pre-computer generated era, it's a flat surface. It's almost a 2D surface with characters moving inside of it. And this is one that feels like it is like background, foreground, life in every frame. Yeah, I mean, the thing about it, it's obviously a huge like technical,

like application of skill achievement, but whatever, it is absolutely beautiful. It is just straight-up art, the color especially. But either the hand strokes or the brush strokes, the creatures, it is a feat of imagination, it is a feat of composition, it is a feat of just something that you want to look at. And because an animator, I guess, has like even more control over the frame, I guess you could then term it as like athletic filmmaking

because he's like really showing off. But like, I don't care if you can do this. It's not showing off. It's just making something beautiful. Yeah, I think it is also useful in terms of pushing the story forward because it's kind of showing us whether it's a literalization of the spirit world or just a literalization of everything that is in Chihiro's head where she can kind of imagine what would be in a space like this that this is a true story. My daughter woke up this morning and she came out of her bedroom and she said,

Dad, I think I had a dream. And I said, what was, what did you dream about? And she said, I dreamed that you got me a present. I was like, I know this game. I know what she's doing here. And then I was like, well, what was the present? And then she started describing something that is not possible, not logical, not real. It would be like, it was an alligator, but it was alive, but it was friendly, that kind of thing. The movie is like a representation of that. You see these creatures, you see the little soot bugs, or you see the eight armed man,

or you see all of the various frogs and walrus people and all the various creatures. Is it a turnip or a radish spirit? That's a good question. Who hides her in the elevator? Turnip. I always get those confused as well. Yeah, he's whoever he is or she. I guess I shouldn't. There's also a critical figure in this movie which feels like the most childlike logic of all time, that is a dashing young man, but that is also a dragon, but that is also a river spirit. And the spirit of a river that has been damaged in some way,

that it's been toxified, and it doesn't realize it's a river spirit anymore because of what we have done to this planet. It's a pretty tangled metaphor, but it also is weirdly representative of how it feels to be a kid, I think. I think that's one of the things I like about the movie is that it's just unbound. It feels like it feels unstuck on a lot of the things that we come to expect when we're watching a movie. And we're like, why does this not connect to this? And why does that not connect to that? And in some ways, I think that can be frustrating for some viewers. But for the most part, I think if you turn yourself over to it, it can be very beautiful.

Yeah, but there's something, it doesn't insist upon its own logic also. It gives into that fantastical quality. And there is something that is like, much like a child, like the movie or Miyazaki, you know, whoever really believes that what you're seeing is the way that it is. And this is just like, this is what's going on. And so you find yourself more willing just to kind of be like, I'm in this dream world and I'm going with it.

Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. There's no smugness, there's no irony, no characters turn and look at the camera and wink. The other thing is that even though this film and all of his films are very influential on the Pixar storytelling style, this isn't a kids movie made for adults and it isn't a kids movie made for adults, and it isn't a kids movie made for kids.

It's like a movie that Miyazaki made for himself that is somehow universally understood, which is, I think, actually the way that we tend to locate our favorite hoteurs, like our favorite filmmakers, the people that are important to us on the show, are kind of like, this person made this because it mattered to their soul, not because they were like, I have to meet the expectations

of what the Disney board wants in Q4. And we'll be able to sell this little widget guy. Exactly. Or also, this is what I think of 10-year-olds or eight-year-olds. Yes, exactly. And what makes them laugh versus what makes me feel something. Mm-hmm. And like, you and I know that kids also actually,

they know when they're being talked down to, and they actually respond much more to just someone's expression of what they wanna say. I don't know if the brave is not the right word, but it's cool that Miyazaki is so committed. I mean, he's famously like a very, a curmudgeon and sort of like very difficult and very like, I have my idea and sort of like very difficult and very like,

I have my idea and we're sticking to my idea. Well, you can tell that too, right? Like it's singular. It's just like you are in someone's very, very specific and playful and soulful and strange in a great way, specific brain. And it can only, if it were, you know, farmed out to a lot of different people,

you would feel it. There is something about, like, one person's journey of it that makes it work. It's funny because pre-The Boy and the Heron, he hadn't made a movie for a very long time. And during that time, I think his cult grew pretty significantly. I mean, you know, I think the episode we did around Boy in the Harem was Bobby, Andy, and Charles.

And that's really like, you know, different age experiences, different life experiences, people from different parts of the country. And they all had really, really strong feelings about his films. But I think that we had forgotten a little bit like how dug in he is on his strong point of view until we saw The Boy and the Heron, because a lot of people who saw it, it's a wonderful movie. It's not one of my favorites of his, but it's kind of aggressively him.

He wasn't trying to satisfy his audience or he hadn't like softened in his old age. He was like, I'm gonna make the teeth on this heron disgusting. And you're gonna be forced to look at it for 35 minutes. And this movie has the same thing, where there's like a sludge monster, and No-Face is kind of vomiting up living creatures. Like, there's something quite gnarly, quite gross,

about his vision of the child's mind, or these fantastical worlds that he builds, which is great. Like, you don't, there's no, I've now watched every Disney animated feature ever made with my daughter. There really goes there. It never really goes there. We talk a lot about how, and now we just sound

like two really old parents, so, you know, put us on the glacier, but... Back in our day, you know, you walked uphill both ways and they did make kids entertainment that was like slightly gnarlier. It was never this, well, sometimes it was this gnarly in its own way, like not this particular favor because only Miyazaki is Miyazaki, but again, the kids know when they're being condescending to you

and it like flattens, like the world is wild and children need art to help them understand it as much as we do. I don't really feel Miyazaki maybe a little bit in terms of the kind of generation the generation gaps Which is a big theme as well in Miyazaki movies But if you look at some of the later Pixar movies, you know Certainly that some of the soulful stuff and up some of the soulful stuff and Ratatouille and Wally But even more specifically in soul and in turning red. Those are the movies that are these like existential Crisis films right one about a 13 year old girl one about a much older guy that are these like existential crisis films. Right.

One about a 13-year-old girl, one about a much older guy. But they're explorations of something deep, and they're trying to use like basically a child's format to convey something really powerful. They're not quite on this level, but you know what I'm trying to say. No, I do. I mean, I think, but they are a little bit stuck in that is this a movie for kids,

is this a movie for kids? Is this a movie for adults? You know, and some of that is just because in 2022 or whatever, you have to satisfy 18 different audiences and corporate boards. But they're definitely influenced by it. I mean, Domi Shi, the director of Turning Red, was like, this is my favorite film,

or one of my favorite films of all time. So, I mean, and that's another thing where, like we said, all of the kids, all of the young people who are into movies grew up unspirited away, and then all the rest of the Miyazaki films. So the influence of this movie is not just in, like, the other animated films, but in how all the young people watch movies. It's very true. And that idea of the perfect movie is one that we haven't

brooked too much so far in our conversations. Came up during Children of Men. That was probably the last time we were like, God damn, this is really tight. There's not a lot to quibble with. There's favorite and then there's like a mastery, right? And we've got a lot of favorites on this list. We've got a lot of masters. I'm not making any critical judgments in this conversation

specifically about other films. And I think Keanu Reeves in Something's Gotta Give is a well-developed and perfect character. I'm not litigating anything with you, I promise. We stand together on this list. However, I'm interested in the idea of the perfect movie, of the way that people will identify something and say, this is magnificent because I don't know,

well, like what is the imperfect version of Spirited Away? You know, like what's the version that fails? Like it's, I think it's singular. And that's probably like the more appropriate way to define the fawning admiration for it is that there is just nothing like, you know, Steven Spielberg very famously said, I think this is better than any Disney movie ever made.

And that's high praise from somebody who understands what it's like to reach for a perfect movie. And I find that interesting that it has gotten to this place in this 25 year period. It may have gotten to this place more than almost any movie on our list. Can you think of another movie that's even coming that you think would be defined in that way? Well, for us, yes, I can think of a couple on the list. Think of the unknowable universal canon. I can think of a couple.

On our list. Yeah. I can think of a couple that we purposefully excluded. Well, sure. That would be deemed as such. That's fine, but once you're asking me to speak for the people, you know, that becomes... Dangerous.

...complicated. I'm trying... I mean, it is so generational, you know? There are some movies that we think are perfect and the younger kids are like, what are you doing? You know? Like The Princess Diaries. Sure.

It's a great, great film. Sure. Princess Diaries 2 is very early in Chris Pine's career. We wouldn't have him without it. Haven't seen it. So. How does it stack up to Spirited Away? They do have to go to a fictional place

and then learn its rules and regulations. Okay. Or is everyone there dead? Well, it's really dead on the outside, dead on the inside. That's a good point, yeah. No parents have been turned into pigs in that film. I actually don't know what happens to Anne Hathaway's parents. Well, I guess her mom's in the first one.

I don't know whether she makes the trip to Genovia. I don't remember that. Her grandmother is Julie Anders. Jack, am I right? No idea. Oh, come on. Does Genovia border Sokovia in the Marvel Cinematic Universe? Okay, good to know.

This film, part of what is amusing to me about some of that like merchandising and the iconography of the movie is like, what is being common iconography? And also the memeing of this movie, you know? Which is what, rewatching it, I was like, oh, that still and that still and that still and that still. You know, there's the famous Chihiro

and No Face on the subway boat that's like, them sitting together, that's it, that's the one. I didn't even know that was the image. But that image of the sort of like, me and my next fandom, you know, sitting together on the image. But that image of the sort of like, um, me and my, uh, my next fandom, you know, sitting together on the train, um, which is funny because, you know, this character is complex and mysterious

and indebted to like 1960s horror spirits in Shinoda films. Like, it's very unusual kind of figures for them to have been like subsumed into our internet life, but they very much have been. for them to have been, like, subsumed into our internet life. But they very much have been. And to me, they're not the same. Like, in My Neighbor Totoro, there's a lightheartedness to the imagery, to Cat Bus. Right.

This movie is much more severe in terms of the story. Yeah, has Alice seen this one yet? No, she's never seen it. Okay, yeah. I just feel like it's too soon. It's too scary. Yeah, I agree. I think it's way too early. And I think it's instructive that Miyazaki says

that I made it for ten-year-olds. And I'm sure if you were seven, eight, and nine, you could watch a movie like this, but it's not for toddlers. You know, it's not Ponyo. It's not even Porco Rosso, which is like, that pig is flying a plane. Like, any kid can kind of like lock into that. Well, and just also the planes.

Right, yes. I mean, this does have Rivercraft of a kind. It's got flying dragons. It does have things kids like. kind. It's got flying dragons. It does have things kids like. But it has so many things that I think would be confusing to extremely young kids. But it'll be interesting, like,

revisiting all of the Miyazaki films with her. Like, she did watch... What did she watch? Howl's Moving Castle. And I think it was a little too soon for that. Okay. You know, that's a fierce story about warriors and Miyazaki also excels at those kinds of stories.

Those are really the, there's three strands. There's like, crouchy old men, you know, like the wind rises, Porco Rosso is like, there's some guy smoking a butt who needs to like get on a mission. Lives in a beautiful, beautiful lagoon. Absolutely. And then there's young girl or young boy who's been confronted by a traumatic experience and needs to find their way through

a complex emotional world. And then the third one is like young guy with a sword who meets another young gal who needs to like, climb a castle in the sky. Right. This one falls into that young childlike zone, but it is arguably the most adult of his movies

short of the wind rises. So it occupies a very unusual space. It's a coming of age story in a lot of ways, as well as being like a fantasy story. And so those are technically about younger people, but we consume them through all ages of life. You never moved as a kid, right?

I moved houses, but not cities. Okay. I never moved as a child, but I had certainly had friends who moved and kids who moved like into my life from other places. And you often hear of this movie that this is one of the most profound representations of the emotional turmoil of being torn out of your adolescence in one way and placed into another environment and being forced to look at what your future could be and just how disorienting it is and how upsetting it can feel. And there's something amazing about this. I mean, at the time he made this movie, I think it was in his late 50s.

And for him to tap into that sensibility is very powerful. He seems to maintain a childlike wonder. He does, he does. While also like smoking a lot of butts and being mad about everything. Well, you know, we all contain multitudes. We do. What else?

Anything else you'd like to share about Spirited Away? I had forgotten that I basically have a big baby of my own now. Like the- You sure do. I mean, Cy and Bo are really... They got a lot in common. Yeah, Sai's allowed to go outside, though. But otherwise, I was like, oh, I see what's happening here.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts about Yubaba in this film, or her twin sister? Her twin sister seemed nice. Yeah. It's kind of... Ziniba? Yeah. Yeah, Ziniba.

What happened there between them? Some sort of falling out. There's some Wicked Witch of the West, Wicked Witch of the East stuff going on there. Okay, but it's not really explained in a way that... No, that's the other thing is we're not too bound up in the lore. We don't need to understand too much about how this stuff works. I don't know if we need that many rings on our fingers would be my styling note to her, but obviously it communicates a lot.

How do you feel about her as a representation of the kind of westernized grotesquerie of like fabrics and prints and all of these, the colorful style that is kind of in opposition to the, you know, more historically stayed Japanese style. I mean, respectfully, I think she has a pretty sick like penthouse apartment. I thought it was tough on grandmas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know? Well, grandmas, they can be tough. I was like, I see both sides of this one. There's some weird grandma stuff. Sure. Yeah. But I was more thinking about, it's like a tough day for grandmas. What are your thoughts on becoming a grandma?

Not anytime soon. So when do I start giving those speeches? Chat with Knox about that. You know, I think that, as I said at the beginning, this movie is a really important bridge for generations of movie fans to be more open to international stories. But I think it's also a huge bridge for animation

at large being accepted beyond your typical Disney storytelling style. Now, there's obviously huge other studios that exist, DreamWorks, Illumination, they've released dozens of huge movies over the last 25 years. Those are usually movies for the masses, for really young children. But then in addition to that, you've got Aardman in England and the Wallace and Gromit films and Chicken Run and all of those stories. And then you've also got Leica and the stop motion animation style that they use. And this film, maybe more than any other, like signals the dawn of a new golden age, whatever, a platinum age. You know, if you think like the thirties and forties with disney.

When you get this fascinating kind of like mid century all the way through the mid eighties it's not a fallow period for disney but it's not as strong as you would want to be in fact most of the interesting animation work that's happening is usually like on the outer edge of culture like Ralph back to your folks like that. that's happening is usually like on the outer edge of culture, like Ralph Bakshi or folks like that. And then in the 90s and the late 80s, they were like, Disney really takes the crown back with like Little Mermaid and Aladdin and The Lion King. And then this is the one that kind of kicks down the door for anybody who isn't Disney to be mainstream in some ways. And I really like that about it. I think it makes it a really elegant inclusion in this list. Yeah. And Miyazaki, we got to appreciate him while we got him. Apparently, he's making another movie. Right. Well, it was one of those he's retiring and then reports of my retirement have, you know,

been greatly overestimated. This seems to be a pattern with him, right? I was being like, I'll never do this again. And then like, here's another masterpiece. Same with me in podcasting, you know, every time I'm like, I'm done, I'll never do this again. And then like, here's another masterpiece. Yeah, same with me in podcasting, you know, every time I'm like, I'm done. I can't do anymore. And then next week, banger after this is final destination week, you know, and got to step up, got to make my, the wind rises. Um, recommended if you like. So we've already mentioned a handful of these titles. I mentioned Alice in Wonderland.

I feel like that's the most significant companion. Pinocchio up. I would recommend the secret World of Ariadne if folks haven't seen it. It's a Studio Ghibli movie that I believe he wrote. I think he's the screenwriter on that film and has a somewhat similar tone. I also added into the Spider-verse.

Yeah, that's the first one, right? The first one, yeah. That sort of like, almost like the noisiness of the frame. The idea of so many things happening at once in the movie feels super informed by Iizaki. And colors of like, almost like the noisiness of the frame. The idea of so many things happening at once in the movie feels super informed by Iizaki. And colors, and like the relationship of like the, to like, to classical art for lack of a, you know, like of all, but Japanese as well as, you know,

the Western canon, but that I do think it looks like something recognizable that you would see hanging on a wall in a museum. 100%. A lot of the images are taken directly from historical Japanese art from this film. And you can see the huge influence on that in all modern animation. I also mentioned Watership Down, which I think just the sort of like mournfulness of that story, like the gravity of that story, which is so unusual in animation to convey that. And also just like a whole other world of creatures

who have like a life and rules of their own and how they live. I added Narnia and The Golden Compass. And I'm not like, the books are probably closer than whatever film adaptations exist. I haven't seen Greta's yet, so I'm not gonna pass judgment. Recommended if you like Greta's on me, Chronicles of Narnia trilogy. Um, but both places, you know, instances of a young person

passing through, like, a doorway or a cabinet door or some physical structure into another spiritual world. Great recommendations. Okay. Well, that's the only animated film. That's it. On the list. Well, you got anything else that you want?

I feel like, Ratatouille is like, I'm sorry, but I like it a lot. It's a wonderful film about... That's great. ...the act of creation. Sure. So is this. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I don this. Sure, yeah, yeah. I don't think they're redundant. Okay.

But I'm sure there are some listeners who may be disappointed. We won't speak too much about Pixar. Okay, I feel okay with that. I know they're very important, but this seems more important. This is more in line with the otorist nature of this project.

Mm-hmm. And our tastes. Yeah. Miyazaki and Pixar are pretty neck and neck for me in terms of like what kind of a movie do I want to watch if I'm going to watch a movie. Right. But Toy Story is not eligible. Toy Story is not eligible. And if it were, it would be on this list.

Yeah. Then we would be having that conversation. But it's not, you know? Yeah. I think there is something to that, that there was like a wild act of creation in the making of Toy Story because there had never been a movie like that before. That isn't true specifically of this Miyazaki movie, but it felt like the culmination. So that's our pick. I can't even remember what 18 is. What's 18? Don't say it. What is it? It's a good one.

Is it? Yeah. Imagine if you're like, it sucks. One of the worst ones we've picked. It's one where it's a director where there could have been several entries, I think. Prolific filmography. But for us, there was never a question. I like that tease. I can't even remember what the film is.

Okay. Stay tuned to The Big Picture if you want to find out. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Later this week, we'll be talking about Lilo and Stitch. Speaking of animation, come to life in a world of wonder. We'll see you then.