The Big Picture - The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 20 - ‘Melancholia’

Episode Date: May 14, 2025

Sean and Amanda return to continue their yearlong project of listing the 25 best movies of the 21st century so far. Today, they discuss Lars von Trier’s ‘Melancholia,’ the deeply upsetting 2011 science fiction drama, which stars Kirsten Dunst and Kiefer Sutherland and features one of the greatest opening scenes of all time. They discuss Dunst’s astounding performance, explain why this was such a critical project for von Trier’s career, and revisit the infamous controversy at the Cannes Film Festival and consider what it means for the legacy of the film. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name's Matt Bellany. I'm a founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. With my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight, which streamer is on the brink of collapse, and which executive is on the hot seat. Disney, Netflix, who's up, down, and who will never eat lunch in this town again.

Follow the town on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well marbled rib eye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered.

Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about melancholia. The earth is evil. We don't need to grieve it and nobody will miss it.

Is that how you feel right now, Amanda? Sure. Yeah, no, but yes. I'm so excited that we're doing this. I was like, and so this is, I mean, this is, you agree with me. We agreed on all of these, but this was just like an elated Amanda pic.

And I'm like almost giddy. And I've been telling people in our life, we were even talking with Jack before we started and everyone's like, wow, what a depressing movie. Oof, you've got to watch that right now. And I have to be honest, it's obviously incredibly dark, but I find it exhilarating. Let's talk right away about why that is.

So the film is directed by Lars von Trier. It's a full 25, 30 years in his career. The famed Danish filmmaker. It's a critical movie in a lot of ways. It's a movie that sort of signals his arrival to, even though this film was not made in Hollywood and in fact, he's never been to America, a kind of American and English movie movie.

He had previously worked with, you know, Nicole Kidman and Bjork and Emily Watson, but this is an American movie star in Kirsten Dunst and a largely English-speaking cast. Stellan Skarsgård, Alexander Skarsgård, Charlotte Gainsburg, of course, French, stars as her sister, your boy, Brady Corbet, number of other actors, the Udo Kier, Charlotte Rampling, Kiefer Sutherland, an American.

And it feels like a classic Lars movie, and yet a totally different kind of Lars movie. So contextualize it for yourself, for us. When did you see it? How did it impact you at the time? I do think I saw it the first... around the time that it came out, because I would have been in New York and, you know, I was like in my art house era.

Mm-hmm. But I honestly, I think I really came to this movie because my dad loved it so much, which is also just an incredible take. We'll come back to him. Yeah, and the Kirsten Dunst of it all. And I think what you said about it being both a quintessentially Lars von Trier movie and also a departure. The departure is what brings me into it.

Everything from the, you know, the staging, the sumptuous lush, like it's, you know, the first half the sumptuous lush, like it's, you know, the first half of the movie is at a wedding at some ridiculous estate and everything is beautifully designed. Well, the whole movie is. The first half is the wedding, the second half is just like, you know,

people dealing with space and the internet and doom. It uses Wagner's Tristan and his Old in this memorable and really operatic pun intended, like over the top way, but there is just, there is something big and lavish and like, and showy about what it's doing, and not like grimy and perverted in the way that many other Von Trier movies can be.

And so the openness or the difference is kind of what brings you in to then what is an incredible movie about his signature subject, which is depression and the world being awful. Yeah, so a place of pitiless despair. So this movie, which I assume many listeners of the show have heard, but many have also not seen, is now streaming on Netflix and Tubi. So if you'd like to watch this movie, we highly recommend it.

We're going to talk about some of the details of the story. It is what it says on the label. It is a story about deep, deep, deep sadness and pain, and also a kind of metaphorical pain that comes in the form of a planet that is hurtling towards Earth. It's on a collision course. And two sisters... Or is it?

Well, we can talk about that. We can talk about the literalism or lack thereof in the movie. But the two sisters, Dunstan Gainsbourg, one of them is trying to cope with her depression or is engaging with her depression, depending on how you read the movie. And the other is kind of having a hard time accepting the destiny of these two characters.

And it's kind of a bifurcated movie that, you know, says it is about these two women, but I find that it is ultimately very much about the Kirsten Dunn's character and her pain and also her sense of... wisdom? Yeah. And whether or not depression is actually the act of the wise is an interesting question of the movie. Dunn's character shares her name with the title figure Depression is actually the act of the wise, is an interesting question of the movie. Dunn's character shares her name with the title figure

in Marquis de Sade's 1787 novel Justine, about a virtuous woman who endures a crucible of suffering and after being reunited with her sister, is fatally struck by lightning. Yeah, off to an auspicious start. That's not a coincidence. There are many, many literary and artistic homages and allusions throughout this movie.

It opens with this, as you use the word sumptuous, I couldn't agree more, this kind of gorgeous fantasia of pain at the very beginning. It is like an overture and it's set to the prelude from Tristan and his Old. And it's like living paintings is like the best way that you can describe it, and it features the actors in the film and scenes, and really does set out for you what is going to happen in this film, including the ending, which Ventrier has talked about. And his reasoning for that is that it's important for you, the viewer, to not be wondering, like,

is it gonna collide or is it not gonna collide? Like, you need, you actually need to know the ending in order to understand... what he wants you to understand about these characters and the way they're seeing the world and the choices that they make. Which is sort of his way of saying that he wants you to understand that the depressed person is right.

Uh, which is, of his way of saying that he wants you to understand that the depressed person is right. Which is, like, amazing. And this... So this movie is very... is funny on its face. Like, there are actually comedic moments. But to me, there is... I guess it's the way I respond to nihilism and this deep depression. I'm just like, it is actually hilarious to me that he just makes this entire opera about how the depressed person

is the only person seen clearly. Or who should at least be listened to or whose journey towards acceptance is rational in some ways. Because the feeling of depression is so irrational and that those who are not kind of in sync with someone who is feeling depressed are often approaching them like, what is wrong with you? What is wrong with you? So this idea of like orienting the truth inside of the person who is illogical is such a smart concept. And the only way to actually to like to find peace and to make it through whatever is left of the world.

Right. I mean, it's audacious and funny to me. I think it is. Because it's so depressing that I don't know how else to respond to it. Yeah, I think all of Von Schur's movies have a sense of humor about them because he takes bleakness to their absolute furthest extent.

I think one thing that one reason that this movie, I feel, is differentiated and is ultimately my favorite of all of his films is he makes a choice to not make the lead female character like a humiliated victim. She is a person in pain, but I think there is an incredible sensitivity to her pain and that idea of like her being right is something that you don't necessarily feel but I think there is an incredible sensitivity to her pain and that idea of like her being right is something that you don't necessarily feel

in Breaking the Waves or in Dancer in the Dark. There's like a punishing quality to those movies in Dogville, Manderley, like all of these movies that he's made, especially those sort of more, the English ones are really hard to sit through and accept. And when you arrive at the end of them, you say the same thing that you say at the end of this movie,

but when you say it at the end of this movie, you can say like, well, I guess we're fucked. Instead of like, we are fucked. Yeah. And even though he doesn't necessarily shift his totalizing view of the world, the energy that he brings to it, and I think the sort of like sensitivity

that he has to these characters is a little bit different, which I find really interesting. I'm not even sure what brought him to this stage in his career. He's such a controversial filmmaker, and there's a lot of controversy embedded in the release of this movie. Really some self-sabotage for sure. We can talk about that in a little while, but I just find it to be a bit different from any other von Trier movie. We'll mostly talk about Kirsten Dunst, I think, with reason. And this is Kirsten Dunst's movie, and she is, I think, the Von Trier stand-in,

for lack of a better word. But the Charlotte Gainsbourg character is really important, both in... When I watched it again for this podcast, I was like, oh, so one's depression and one's anxiety, which is really, like, fascinating, you know, and I struggle with both. So it's... they are two prongs of the same experience.

There must be some of him in her and Gainsburg's character as well. Yeah, exactly. But the Gainsburg character is there... showing both a lot of empathy for the Dunn's character and is kind of the vehicle for everything you're saying about not punishing the person, at least trying to accommodate. You know, and she gets frustrated with the Dunn's character as well, but it's someone else who understands that this is an illness.

That's one thing that she says to Kiefer Sutherland's character. Like she's ill. But then the other thing that the Charlotte Gainsborough character is doing is she is providing... She is a hopeful person or she's not hopeful, but she wants it to work out. She is there in opposition to Kirsten Dunst, whose character who's literally just like the world is evil and it's good that it's gonna die. And she is... So she provides that sort of like human connection of, wait, no, actually we don't... Like not every, not all of us wants,

not all of our human person wants this, wants this to turn out this way, even if it's going to. And I think that makes it like a little, a little less, not like closed off, I guess. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it also just makes it feel to me a little bit less like an experiment. A lot of his movies often feel like exercises and endurance. And I feel like this movie is just much more sort of gorgeous. And even when things are turning really bad in the third act of the movie and, you know, the hail storm begins, it's just a beautiful image. It's so beautiful.

And he, he's always been a filmmaker with a strong eye, but he usually shoots, you know, in the Dogme, Dogme 95 style, which is this like really kind of grainy, intense digital format, and it's a very, a lot of closeups. It's a lot of handheld. in the Dogme 95 style, which is this really kind of grainy, intense digital format. And it's a lot of closeups, it's a lot of handheld. It's like a very unforgiving style of filmmaking. And this is a style of filmmaking that is using all the same tools,

but is trying to paint with them. And it just makes for a different kind of movie. And if you look at the later Von Trier movies, you can see that this movie is kind of a turning point for him. Like Nymphomaniac, another insane movie. It is like very unpleasant through much of it. But is a bit more gorgeous to look at, even though it is lots of depraved sex acts for three and a half hours.

So it's a critical movie for him. It's a... I thought it was a critical movie for Kirsten Dunst. And I'm not sure if that's actually true. Because it's a big breakthrough for her. It gets her out of Mary Jane and being typecast as the cute, bubbly blonde, you know, post bring it on and... Or even as a team. Because with Sofia Coppola, she's working, you know, in the...

And she's amazing in it. But Marie Antoinette, which is still just like, you know, what if a significant historical figure were just a teenager? Right. And so it is... I guess it's her first true adult role. But it does not trigger... The after effects of this movie are fascinating to me.

And like what parts she took and what movie she made and how, certainly how you view her. I mean, I think it's fair to say she's your favorite actress. Probably, yeah. And she's, I think, pretty widely beloved and respected. Has had really good taste for the last 20 years. But doesn't have like seven melancholias on her resume. You know what I mean? Do you know what I'm saying?

Like, I think I was a little surprised, like reading so much about her at this time. There's a big feature about her from, uh, about her in the New York Times in the aftermath of the release of this movie, in part because of the Cannes press conference for the, when the film came aired and they're writing about her as though she is about to be Cate Blanchett, I would say, you know, like this is a, you know, young actress who's emerged from the chrysalis and is about to take over the art house forevermore. And it took a while.

It took a while for her to get into the power of the dog and civil war and, you know, now she's gonna be, what is her next, oh, she's gonna be in The Entertainment System is Down, the new Ostlin movie. Right, she's in Roof Man? In Roof Man. So those four movies to me feel like the four movies that would come in the immediate aftermath of Melancholia,

but it doesn't quite happen. And I wonder if maybe people either didn't see this movie or didn't quite... Like, weren't ready to accept her as this kind of a performer quite yet? I don't know, what do you think of that? I mean, she wins Best Actress It Can, which is not always a predictor of mainstream American success. In fact, like, it rarely is.

But it does at least usually give you some attention. I do think that the Lars Venter of it all around this movie just really limited its reception and certainly its American crossover. I mean, this is like a deeply dark, like weird European film, you know, that we both love, but it's not like, you know, go see the star, bring it on! And like, you know, doing her best, Ophelia.

Like, it's not commercial to begin with. And then I think it was so easy after the dumb press conference to kind of write it off for a bit. You know, I don't know why more directors are... working with her in those few years afterwards. I mean, you're right, it's like almost ten years. I know she has kids during this time as well. And she's doing TV. She was on Fargo.

That's where she met Jesse Plemons. But it is... it's pretty confusing how the next five years don't have anything really of note. It's not that the work is bad. It's just, you know, she took Bachelorette, which is a great movie right after this. Such a fun comedy. But then it's like the two faces of January.

She's got a modest part in Midnight Special, a modest part in Hidden Figures. She makes the big guy old with Sophia, which is a good movie, but like, I cast her in like year 35 now. These are the kind of parts you have to play. Yeah, it's my least favorite of the Sophia movies. And then Wood Shock, she meets with her friends. No, that's not her favorite ring, but...

The, uh, is it the Malivi sisters? Yes. Um, and then, and then now I felt like Power of the Duck kind of reset her trajectory as like, this is one of our great American actors and deserves these parts. You're right that Fargo is pretty significant in that respect too. is like, this is one of our great American actors and deserves these parts. You're right that Fargo is pretty significant

in that respect too. But I think this is up there with her best work. I mean, this is like, you could say Marie Antoinette and The Virgin Suicides are obviously hugely critical. This movie does something very similar to those two films, which is that it doesn't have her speak much. And particularly in the first half of this movie, her character does not have a lot of dialogue.

So she has to convey all of this pain while also performing at her own wedding. And I think we all know that feeling. When you're at a big event and the attention is focused on you, and you are like not happy, but you need to pretend to be happy. And just the way like that her smile fluctuates. And there are like, you know,

4,000 different versions of it as she is reacting to really all of the different absurd things. I mean, this is an amazing wedding and the wedding from hell. I mean, this is an amazing wedding and the wedding from hell. And I had forgotten the opening with that lovely scene and the stretch limo between her and Alexander Skarsgård. You know, and there are,

one of the most painful parts about this movie is all the moments of like beauty and love and like nice things that are there for a fleeting moment before she like, but she can't hold onto to them whether it's her her nephew Leo, poor, I mean tough for Leo it's

Not not an ideal life I don't I don't think that I had seen this movie since I had kids and once again I was like, oh, I did like how the movie is kind of constantly circling back to what about Leo What about me? Yeah, which is what it's like when you're a parent. You're always circling back to what's going on with your kid. And also, Justine is locked in on that too. Yeah. But then, you know, the wedding is just a nightmare

in all of the ways there are stupid wedding, you know, games, like the beans, the parents are not behaving. There's a schedule and a mean wedding planner. Yes. Udo Kier is hilarious. And at some point he gets mad because Justine can't handle it, has to take a break. And he just walks around the rest of the movie like this with one hand up.

He's like, I can't look at her. She ruined my wedding. And commits to the bit through half of this movie. That is hilarious. Stellan Skarsgård gets mad and just starts smashing a plate at the catering shop. Well, before that, he gives her work at her wedding. He asks her to write.

And a promotion. Excuse me. Well, he gives her the promotion. And it's like attached to this promotion is you will give me a tag for this ad campaign during the wedding. Sure. Which is, you know, there are a series of perversities.

That's a very von Trier-esque addition to the story. Right. And also like whatever tagline, is, you know, there are a series of perversities. That's a very Von Trier-esque addition to the story. And also, like, whatever tagline, like, you know, there's just some, like, very perverse sexual BDSM image that needs the tagline. So, you know, Von Trier is still... Still doing his thing, very much so. But yeah, everyone, I would say with the exception of Alexander Skarsgård, who I think is portrayed, who portrays a very kind of sensitive, thoughtful, like, they're in love, they care about each other.

But the magnitude of her depression is so profound that there's something shielding her from him, and he can't quite get to where she is feeling and how she is feeling as hard as he tries. The, I think that the movie managing to balance something like that, Because I think that the movie managing to balance something like that, that sensitive, you know, impossible to illuminate distance between two people who are so close, while also showing you all the outlandish, ridiculous, silly, like punishing foolishness of daily life is part of the genius of the movie.

But then it's compounded significantly by this interstellar ecological disaster. Which is that this planet Melancholia is, we think, racing towards Earth, but might miss Earth. And there's... Well, that's what certain characters are saying, but we know that's the thing because we've watched the Overture and it collides like beautifully, by the way, like it's just, again, it's really, really...

For a low-budget European art house movie. If you're gonna make sci-fi, make it look like this. I know, I know. There's something to that for sure. Using the key for settling character, John Gainsburg's character's husband as the know-it-all rich guy dickhead, who's like, don't worry, everything's gonna be fine. I know what I'm talking about. You have to read the news. You don't know what you're talking about.

It's also just, like, such a precise trope. Like, he has identified a guy in the world. Maybe I am that guy sometimes. Right. Unfortunately, he's also given the line, have you been going online again? Which is, listen, you know, even the idiots speak truth sometimes. It's true. He's got a point there. I think that this movie is, the internet existed in 2011

and it was toxic at that time, but it really also presages where our negative energies go when something bad is happening and how we kind of like amplify those things back and forth to each other. That being said, in this case, you know, the planet really was going to hit. Yeah. This is just an absolutely gorgeous movie. Do you think all life on earth is evil? No. Is it too, is it just a manifestation of the sadness, the way that she takes it to the extreme of thought? Yes, I think so. And it's like, and it's... She's giving over to depression. There's an amazing scene where, um, as melancholia is approaching,

uh, Justine goes out in night, and then, I guess, like, sunbeams, moonbeams, planetbeams, um... in, like, the blue glow of melancholia. And you know, and it looks like a Renaissance painting. And, but Justine is like feeling some sort of like release or joy or it's, and to me it's, you know, giving into melancholia and what's going to happen. But it's like this like this sadness, this illness

that you can't keep at bay and that you've been fighting for so long, you just like let it take over. And there is like release in that, right? Because depression is something that you are like fighting against, I speak from experience. And so I think that the... I don't think that... I don't even think the movie thinks the world is all bad, because it has the Charlotte Gainsborough character.

It has Leo. It has the moment between Alexander Skarsgård and Kirsten Dunst and the apple trees. Um, before she just leaves the photograph. Even like her idea of her father and her father kind of slipping through her fingers as John Hurt in the movie, you know, there's like, there's real love and connection or lost connection that she feels like is important to her. So it's not that it's, this is not, it is not nihilism, I don't think. But I think you're right though, that the moon bathing is the acceptance of the darkness,

right? That is like, this is happening and we cannot beat it, and so I have to embrace it. Which is an extreme, one of the darkest point of views you could ever have. It is truly the nature of suicidal tendency. Like, that is exactly what he is located. But he's doing it with contrasting it with, like, literally one of the most beautiful women on the planet,

completely nude, painted on screen in like screen in a sci-fi glow. It's just an amazing image making. Amazing. Yeah. Um, but then he also, so the end of the movie, once Justine has that acceptance and then she, you know, gives, there's the speech that she gives to Claire, Charlotte Gainsborough character, which is, you know, all life on earth is evil. I don't want to go like have a glass of wine with you

on the terrace while the planet hits and the world ends. But he still gives you Leo and the child character. And there is that moment, even as Kirsten Dunst has like accepted, has like given in to the dark side of the force, I guess. I was just listening to your Star Wars rewatchables. Um, she's, she's made to confront Leo. And so they, they embrace and she like does try to reassure him and she tries to make the end of the world okay for him.

But that last shot, it's Claire who's freaking out and it's Justine, but also Leo, who are like very calm in the Magic Cave, as they call it. And there is something, to me, the darkest thing is Leo's like calmness in that moment. You know, he, the world is ending and also his parents are pretty absent. So I get it. An under discussed theme of this movie is your parents can really, really fuck you up.

Fuck you up, yeah. Yeah. Charlotte Rampling, all time, 15 minute, three days on set performance. Yes. She plays a mother who, a classic narcissistic personality disorder person who has made the event of the marriage all about her and her discontent with the idea of marriage and rejecting it in part because her marriage dissolved to John Hurt, who was this kind of like, you know, carousing party man who's kissing various Bettys and embarrassing himself and embarrassing his family.

And... But she stands up at the wedding and is like, I didn't go to the church because I hate weddings, and I hate everyone here. It's really... But she's incredibly well-cast. Charlotte Rampling is truly the dark side of the force. And then Kiefer Sutherland, I also, I've got some notes for him.

For his behavior. Well, as a dad, you know? Yeah, sure. Total denial, and then... finds... takes all of Claire's, like, special pills. For a... But for a movie with, like, such big gestures

and such, kind of like, purposefully overstated imagery, I just find his ability to locate the truth in people's real actions. Like, the archetypes are so real. You know, the mom making it all about her at a wedding. The overconfident husband who will not accept that anyone could be feeling anything other than his truth. You know, the kid who like retreats in moments of fear.

Like, they're very, very nuanced portraits of very specific kinds of people operating inside of a genre movie that is also, you know, has homage to like last year, Marion Badd and this broad tradition of existentialist European cinema. And it's just a masterful synchronization of all of his interests and also bringing something new to the table that it's really, really exciting. I read a lot about this movie in the run up to this and A.O. Scott in his review of it, which is an excellent review of this film,

notes that Robert Altman, Noah Baumbach, and Jonathan Demme had previously used, quote, the angst and pomp of a wedding to zero in on the fragility of the human condition. And there is something to that. You know my theory about weddings. I thought of you as I rewatched. Any movie that opens with a wedding is probably a masterpiece and any movie that closes with a wedding, probably tripe. Does this con as opening? I think so.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, she's in a wedding dress on the way to the wedding at the start, after the overture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's in a wedding dress for some of the overture as well. So I just didn't know whether the overture disqualifies it. I think it's fair to say.

I do think the overture is one of the great openings in cinema. I had totally forgotten about it before I sat down to watch this again. It's like, it is the like total opposite, but it's up there with the first 10 minutes of up. You know? One is just like here is the possibility of life and one is here is the impossibility. That's a fabulous comparison and no 2009 is up. I was gonna say they come out in the same year but both are about the acceptance of death in so many ways.

What is this movie's legacy? Well, I guess we'll talk about the press conference though. So at this movie premiere to Cannes and there was a press conference and they gave Lars von Trier a microphone and he made some comments that he now says were a joke, and maybe they were at the time, saying that he was a Nazi, some other, you know, some stuff that... He was kind to Hitler in some of his comments. Not ideal. Not what you want. Yeah, it's really not good.

And it was not received well. You know, people were appropriately outraged, and he was banned from Cannes for a while. Seven years he was banned. But there was a real stink before anyone could ever see this movie. And whatever mitigation they tried to do of being like, well, it's Lars von Trier, he gets in his own way. It didn't work out. So I do feel like it took a while for the majesty of this movie to be separated from the rollout. Yeah, it's hard to know how much this specifically

impacted his career because, you know, Nymphomania came out two years later. That was a very big movie, drew a lot of stars to it. And then he made The House That Jack Built in 2018 with Matt Dillon, a serial killer movie. And he hasn't made any films since then. I guess Attudes is another movie that he's going to have coming at some point, but he's been very sick.

I believe, is it, was it Parkinson's that he was diagnosed with? I can't recall what the malady was that he's currently battling, but it has made it extremely difficult for him. Yes. Yes, it is Parkinson's. I mean, he's historically been a very... a struggling person. He has a fear of flying, he has anxiety. He obviously is deeply depressed.

And in 2022, he is diagnosed with Parkinson's. And so like... This movie's kind of the culmination of his career in a lot of ways too. And the fact that it is marred by that press conference that you're talking about, which was happening, and Kirsten Dunst was sitting directly to his left. And there's this famous post on 4-4,

Rich Josuiak's blog, that I remember vividly at the time of Cannes 2011, that is a series of gifts, like a wall of gifts, of her reaction to everything that Bontrier was saying at this press conference, which is really just like heinous and not funny. And... It's a performance unto itself.

I mean, what she is doing in that space where she is reviled, half-laughing, trying to shrink away from his sentiments. There's a moment when she clearly turns to him and tries to tell him to stop. You know, she like pulls him aside. And I think she's quoted in the Times as saying that she said, Lars, this is terrible and not funny. Please stop. And then he continued on for another 20 minutes.

But it's relevant because it's like, it's almost like the urges of the movie coming to life at the press conference. Like it feels so intertwined with all of the darkness that is inside of this movie that I can't help but see the meta text and the real text colliding at the same time, the same way that the planets collide in this movie. Yes. I mean, he is... A provocateur, like, you know, which is a overused and kind of annoying word, but it is true in that sense that there is something

that he is not just like poking at, but he is very like bluntly and aggressively putting like the uglinessiness that is inside him... Mm-hmm. ...in his art, but, you know, I guess also in his daily, you know, in his daily life. And just, I think... in the confines of a movie, you know?

It works very well. It works very well, but, you know, it comes from a place of struggle and, and, you know, ugliness. And the two... They like... Sometimes artists do this, you know, we talk about it all the time, right? Like separating the art and the artist and can you and what fuels art you love can also be really, really unseemly in real life.

I mean, Björk made some very strong accusations of misconduct on the set of Dancer in the Dark. That didn't seem to meaningfully affect his career. He was still casting world famous actors and actresses in his movies. It's unclear like what actually happened in that circumstance. Von Trier also, I think, at least in the context of this list, represents a strain of European cinema that is this blend of, like, the anguished artist,

the cynicism of the world, and the provocateur troll. And there are a lot of other filmmakers who could have made this list. Exactly why Brady Corbet is in this movie. It can't be a role, which we didn't talk about. But it's like, it's not, you know... He learned at the feet of the masters. He did. I mean, when he was on the show,

I asked him, did you like go seeking out these filmmakers specifically to like learn how they made this confrontational cinema? Because, you know, the other artists I'm thinking of are like, Gaspar Noy is one of them. But, you know, he worked with Michael Hanukkah on the English remake of Funny Games. Noy and Hanukkah and Von Trier and maybe Brady Corbet, who is not from, you know, Denmark.

Well, he's aspiring, too. You know, he's clearly, he has been schooled. And responds to the filmmaking. It's funny to see him in this film. I mean, he seems like such a small, young boy in this movie. He does have a very funny part where he's basically like assigned to Kirsten Dunst after her promotion, and she's the new art director, and she uses him. There's a hilarious sex scene in a sand trap in this movie.

I have to say, all of the golf course scenes are used for great visual comedy. Like her just like driving off alone in the golf cart in her wedding dress in the middle of the night. Like, out and out guffaw for me. And really, it's just like how I feel a lot. I was like, oh, I feel seen in like, this is the meme of me. Which is just like, goodbye.

Do you think... Do you think... I'll cherish that. Do you think Von Trier golfs? I don't, you know? I don't think so either, no. I think he probably has contempt for golf, and that's why he's setting so much of this pain

and anxiety in this space. I know when John, the Kiefer Southerner character, keeps saying, how many golf holes do we have? 18. Nobody else asks that, okay. Cool. I think that this is a very special movie. And...

It's not quite that they don't make them like they used to anymore, because they never really made anything like this, but it is, to me, a perfect reason to do this list and a perfect convergence of our tastes. You know, that like, I am art house genre guy, and you are Kirsten Dunst's depression girl, and we now have... I can be art house Kirsten Dunst's depression girl. And I can have... I can be Art House Kirsten Dunst's depression girl.

And I can be depression girl too. It's that we share some of these traits, but it is fun to find something. You know, I felt very similarly to you when I saw this movie. I was like, this is a masterpiece. This is like exactly where I would hope that's... If Vulture made another movie that was just handheld close-ups on a sad actress's face,

but like in the real world while a man abused her, I'd be like, come on, man, like we've seen this. We've seen this so many times. This is an escalation and elevation of those ideas and very beautiful. Recommend it if you like. This is where we recommend movies that you may wanna watch if you enjoyed this film. You know, I haven't said Tarkovsky yet.

Say it now. Famous Russian filmmaker who is a lighthouse for von Trier in many ways. Another person who constantly wrote about and made films about the desolation of existence. And he also was a filmmaker who routinely would take pieces of science fiction and pieces of that drama of despair and kind of smash them together without over explaining very much.

You know, Stalker and Solaris, these are like two movies that feel very synchronized to this movie, so I'd recommend those. If you're a Von True fan, obviously Breaking the Waves, I think is, was widely considered his masterpiece up until this point. I think The Idiots is another movie that you could think about when watching this, though that movie is more fun,

for lack of a better word. What else? What else did you recommend? So, we each put down one of the wedding movies. You know, Rachel getting married, which is the Jonathan Demme. I did Margot and the Wedding, The Bombeck, which, you know, tough sits at beautiful family locations, both of them. Two movies about women who are not getting married, who are terribly depressed and difficult.

Uh, and then I think The Virgin Suicides is a real, you know, it is obviously like Kirsten Dunst in a different life phase, but navigating... similar themes, and I would say it's a different take on depression, but, and, um... something, like, unknowable and strange lurking and what she can communicate without saying very much. I think it's a good shout. Um...

And then I think Birth, too, would be an interesting one. Great book. Jonathan Glazer's film and another Kidman movie where she's lost and sad. Birth isn't on our list, but... Yeah, spoiler. Well, we're allowed to do that. Are we sure? What if we slotted it in place

with something else? That's true. I guess there's time. I mean, Birth is absolutely amazing. I love Birth. Any closing thoughts? This is my favorite movie. Can I tell my Melancholia story now? Please, please do. Yes, I do. I was there.

Well, you weren't actually there at this moment. Right. But I, this movie holds a special place in my heart because I got married in 2016. And as my dad and I were standing, like, in, you know, waiting to walk down the aisle, like Zach had left, and it was just me and my dad. And my dad turns to me with great wonder and love

and like true joy in his eyes. And he says to me, this is just like the wedding in Melancholia. That is like a true thing. And it's the greatest my dad story of all time. And I want you to know, I received it with the love and the happiness. The wedding really did not look like

the wedding in Melancholia. It was in a barn. It was a wonderful wedding. And it was very beautiful. Zach planned it all and did a great job. And the world is still going. And I am also still married, which is, you know, some signature differences as well.

But just, I think my dad, you know, really felt the love in that moment. And that's how he shared it. And that is why he's a legend. He was trying to be connected to you even more, which is really nice. And we're gonna stay connected because this planet is not going anywhere for now.

Yeah. For now. There is no incoming planetoid that will smash into us. The melancholia curve is like a genius bit of writing that is also a genius bit of anxiety manifested that's going to haunt me. You know, just being like, well, you think you're safe, but you know, there's the second loop. It's just, I mean, that is literally how anxiety works, but the diagram will stay with me. Stay with us on 25 for 25. What's, oh, I know what's next.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited about what's next. I missed the chance to see this movie on the big screen recently, and I feel sad about that. I did as well, because I wanted to do right by it, but that's okay. I'm excited for us to have that conversation. Thank you to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Please stay tuned to The Big Picture, because later this week, we will be conducting

a very, very, very important draft. It's the Tom Cruise movie draft. Do you feel prepared for that? I thought I did, and then you introduced some new rules and characters, and... I mean, I've emotionally been waiting my whole life, but I got to do some homework. This will be a fascinating one. We'll see you then.

waiting my whole life, but I got I got to do some homework. This will be a fascinating one. We'll see you then.