The Big Picture - The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 25, ‘Michael Clayton’

Episode Date: March 19, 2025

Sean and Amanda kick off their year-long project of listing the 25 best movies of the 21st century so far with a discussion of Tony Gilroy’s ‘Michael Clayton,’ the 2007 legal thriller starring George Clooney and featuring one of the best scripts of the century. They talk about how tightly wound the movie is, some sliding doors in its production, and what it means for the list to start with such a beloved movie for both Sean and Amanda. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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on Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is 25 for 25, a big picture conversation special about Michael Clayton. That's right, we are kicking off our year-long project counting down the 25 best slash our favorite films of the century so far. We're doing it with a bag man today. We're doing it about Michael Clayton. We have to talk about 25 for 25 before we dig into this movie for this mini episode, this semi-bimonthly episode.

How often are we going to be doing these? Well, you're the one who made the spreadsheet, but it seems like every other week. More or less. More or less. Maybe twice a month. Sometimes three times a month. Sometimes we'll cluster because, you know, there are movie events, personal events, but yeah, we'll be throughout the year because we have 25 films.

Plus a couple bonus episodes, one of which might be in the can already. Yes, a selection committee. Sort of the Selection Sunday style. It's March Madness. It's just starting now. We had our own version of it last week. And they will be rolling out until December. So 25 for 25, what is it?

I've already sort of explained what it is, right? It's a collaboration. You and I came together, Meeting of the Minds. What are the best movies that we can agree on that represent our taste? What the century in cinema is so far? Where things are going, where they were? What else? What does this constitute? It is the big picture's 25 most important movies of the century so far.

And so if you've been following along with the show, you understand some of the implications, the preferences that are implied in that, but we probably should lay them out a little bit so people don't yell at us deeply. We have some rules. We do. The first rule is that there's one film per director.

Correct. So we don't have five Tarantinos, we don't have five Finchers. Like, you and I could have done that, but that is a very boring list. So one film per director. Your blood pressure is already rising. Well that was a very hard thing to accomplish. And we've still said that there's an outside chance that we could make some changes, even

though in theory our list is locked right now. Yes. We're not going to change that rule. No. No. But we can make substitutions. Um, we cannot undo the ranking after it's been announced. Correct. Once an episode's out, the list is locked to that point. But with the things that are not announced,

we can still be editing. How much last minute swapping do you think will happen in the top ten? Zero? I think zero, but those ten have to be in the top ten. It's like we can't cut one of those. I don't know. I don't know. What if we do? I think I'm already really angry. We can't! Yeah, I don't know. Ten through twenty is probably where things are gonna get a little crazy. We shall see. I don't know. I know you really fought for King Richard.

You felt like Will Smith's performance in that film is really important. You had it at number nine right now, so we might have to make a change there. There's not a ton of other rules. The films need to be released starting January 1st, 2000, domestically in the United States, all the way up until ongoing. This is a current project. So if a film hits, when a Minecraft movie comes out in two weeks, and we witness greatness, we may decide,

sorry, film like Michael Clayton, but not Michael Clayton, because it's already locked in. You have to go sit down for Jared Hesse's a Minecraft movie, right? I think that is definitely likely. Is there anything you've got your sights on that's coming out later this year that you think could supplant, something we've already selected?

You don't have to say what it would supplant. Not yet, which is kind of depressing. Um, but... Tough sledding so far in 2025. Yeah, but but you know, it's early. We tend to be surprised at this point by things that come out of especially

CAN, even though we're not going for some reason. And so and there are also. There are a few directors who have films this year. That still deserve a chance, a slot on our list. So I wonder whether the reevaluation means

that we can shuffle things around. You're referring of course to Barry Levinson whose Alto Nights is coming shortly. Sure. I think that that's more or less it, right? I mean, why are we doing this? Because 25 is a nice round number. It's fun to do a project, but also,

you know, we've been doing the show for eight years. It's been a long time. That's true. I think it's important to highlight that like, this is from us, from you and me and from the show, and to honor kind of the show and what we've been doing the last eight years. So it's very Hollywood focused.

Yes. You know, I would like, people are gonna... Not, not strictly. It's not strictly, but we are two children of the nineties who have always been obsessed with Hollywood and grew up reading entertainment weekly, unlike movie stars. And, um, you know, we do see things more widely, you especially, but like, are there going to be as many...

Is this representative of the entirety of like world cinema in all its many languages and also genres? No, it is not. Like, it's just not. It is personal to us. So we are not trying to be definitive. We are not trying to be definitive. We are not trying to be representative. We understand that there are both blind spots

and just things we love. And we really did lean into things that we love. So that is, that's how you make a list. Mm-hmm. But I just, I need people to repeat that to themselves over and over again. And to themselves, don't share it with me. I think there's no making anyone happy when embarking on a project like this. Yeah. to repeat that to themselves over and over again. And to themselves, don't share it with me.

I think there's no making anyone happy when embarking on a project like this, except for ourselves. And we're happy with where we landed, sort of. I'm still kind of angst-ridden. Oh, there's time. There's a whole year. There is. I have no complaints whatsoever about number 25. Well, except for, is it going to offend people that it's number 25? Well, it might even offend me,

having just revisited the film. You and I, we saw each other this weekend, and the last week in moviegoing has... There have been some bright spots, but it's mostly been a slog. A little tough. And we were kind of, you know, stomping through the not fun stuff.

And we shared that we were both saving Michael Clayton as a treat to watch on Sunday night as like the reward for all of fun stuff. And we shared that we were both saving Michael Clayton as a treat to watch on Sunday night as like the reward for all of this stuff. And so I did also then go home watching and I was like, 25 really? Like only, are we sure? I found myself being like emotional by getting emotional about how good this film is

and how much I love it. I agree with you. It just goes down like a cold glass of lemonade. It is a very manageable, tight, beautifully executed thing. Let me give some details. I'll try to give as much detail at the top before we begin a conversation. This will be a, you know, kind of a brief conversation for every movie that we do. We're not attempting to do a rewatchables episode here.

It is more sort of an acknowledgement of why this movie works for us and why it belongs on this list relative to what movies have been for the past 25 or so years. So Michael Clayton comes out October 5, 2007, in a fall in which many other great films come out, including A Country for Old Men, There Will Be Blood, Handful of Others, That Are Beloved, Zodiac. Written and directed by Tony Gilroy,

who to this point has been a widely acclaimed screenwriter that are beloved Zodiac. Written and directed by Tony Gilroy, who to this point has been a widely acclaimed screenwriter and also script fixer, a ghost writer, somebody who comes in and helps people solve problems in their screenplays, has gone on to obviously incredible success, directed a couple more movies, is now probably best known as the creator of Andor,

the Star Wars series, which is like the only good Star Wars thing that has come out since The Last Jedi, probably. Stars George Clooney, Tom Wilkinson, Tilda Swinton, and an Academy Award-winning performance, Sidney Pollock as well, a number of other great character actors strewn throughout the cast. Shot by the great Robert Ellsworth,

shot a lot of PTA movies, one of the most gifted cinematographers of his time, music by James Newton Howard. This movie made $93 million at the worldwide box office. Pretty good. And it got seven Academy Award nominations, including Best Picture, Director, Score, and Screenplay, and Best Actor for Clooney, Best Supporting Actor

for Wilkinson, and Swinton's win. Why did this movie make the list? It ticks several sweet spots for us, including, and you were setting this up when you were talking about Tony Gilroy. We really like a writer's movie. We like people talking in rooms and talking really well. And this is one of the great screenwriters, just absolutely like seeing God.

It is so perfectly plotted, just the ideas and structured. The dialogue is just like, you know, don't piss off a motivated stripper, really, really important stuff. And it is sort of just a series of people, mostly men talking in rooms or in alleys. But with such artistry and cynicism and just execution is spot on.

So that really speaks to us. And I feel like we had a lot of writers, writers who didn't quite make the list. So in some ways that can stand for this. The other thing is that it's, it's like a movie star finally finding his moment in George Clooney, who is one of the signature stars of our generation, but maybe not always the signature actor and definitely not the signature director. Um, and this is his lights out moment. This is it. Maybe not always the signature actor and definitely not the signature director. And this is his lights out moment. This is it.

So I think in terms of Clooney, it's interesting because this comes in the aftermath of him winning an Academy Award for Siriana. And yet this is the unusual circumstance in which like someone got their Oscar too soon rather than too late, because this to me, with maybe the exception of Danny Ocean, is his signature role. This is the best, is it the best movie he's been associated with?

Maybe Out of Sight is in that conversation. Maybe the Ocean's movies are in that conversation. Yeah, but also what he's doing in this movie is like playing against everything that he's doing. Certainly in the Oceans movie, even in Out of Sight to a degree, though there's more in common with Out of Sight, like the kind of down on your luck.

But there's not an ounce of charm in this film. There is charisma, but like... He can't help but be magnetic. Yes. But I think, I don't think he smiles in this movie. Like maybe like a rueful smile that I don't really think counts, but sort of, you know, the George Clooney on the side of a tequila truck, which like, you know, knock it,

but that is a big part of his persona. Totally. Is nowhere to be found. And so that he manages to pull something off and hold your attention without that sort of signature charm is what makes it so exciting. I think this is a very soulful performance from an actor who isn't always soulful,

who I think was often accused of a little bit of smarm in the early stages of his stardom, and who had a hard time kind of finding the right parts to break through. Should I be an action star? Should I be a genre guy? How do I get over the Doug Ross, ER anxiety? I think the thing that is cool about this part for him in particular is, Clooney usually plays guys who have great luck. Like, good fortune. That's something that he kind of finds himself in,

great luck. Like, good fortune. That's something that he kind of finds himself in, which is somehow antithetical to great acting in a lot of ways, you know? Like, the fortunate soul is not somebody that... It's harder to root for that person. Obviously, he's a very handsome guy. He's got this incredible charm. In this movie, he kind of does have everything else. He's incredibly intelligent. He's accomplished in his career. He has a family. He has, he doesn't have exactly what he wants, but he has on paper the things that you would think you would want. But in the way that he has all of them, they're all without luck. His marriage is broken. His brother is an addict and has helped ruin his business.

He's never really been able to transcend this skill that he has, this undeniable skill, the bag man skill this undeniable skill, the bag man skill, the fixer skill, which his superiors identify as making him a one of one. But he knows kind of dooms him to a sort of grungy irrelevance in the wider world of lawyers. And so it is sort of against type for Clooney. It's not really where he usually lives.

And yet, there are a few moments in the movie where, for example, he plays in an underground poker game, which we see twice in the film. The film starts with a sort of flash forward and then cuts backward. Which famously you don't really like, except for this, which is perfect. This movie didn't invent it, but it did it in the way

that is appropriate to me, which is that it shows you an event early in the movie, which is perfect. This isn't, this movie didn't invent it, but it did it in the way that is appropriate to me, which is that it shows you an event early in the movie, which is the explosion of his car, and gets you really thinking about what could happen and where we are in the story. I don't like it when it shows you something that doesn't really matter that much to the story. Anyhow, the poker game, for example,

is like a place where if you saw a guy like George Clooney in a poker game like that, you'd be like, what the fuck is going on here? Like, why is there a guy this handsome, this clean cut, this suited? But we buy it in part because of the atmosphere that Gilroy creates. Characterization, plotting, and dialogue are all superlative in the movie. And so the vibe of the movie is sort of unmatched, I think,

for your post-Sydney Lumet, Sydney Lumet-esque character study about a guy in New York trying to solve problems. So easy movie to love. Yeah. In addition to that, I think one other reason why it's here is that it has become a meme movie in a lot of ways. Yeah. You know, I've got my Michael Clayton hat here. The signs that go outside of people's homes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a grown-up cult classic. And that sounds silly because, as you enumerated at the beginning of the podcast, it was nominated for seven Academy Awards. It was not underappreciated in its time, but also it came out the same year as There Will Be Blood and No Country for Old Men.

And, you know, two other movies about American men operating in a capital, in a society, we live in a society, but operating in the rot of America. And so it has always, even though it's in no way an underdog movie, like it has always felt a little underappreciated or like you're like in on something if you like it, hence the yard signs, you know, in this house we believe that Michael Clayton is an underappreciated or like you're like in on something if you like it, hence the yard signs, you know,

in this house we believe that Michael Clayton is an underappreciated. Like, is it underappreciated? I don't know. But it is sort of... You know, it's kind of like a seek a code word or something. Like, you know, if you say to people like, I am Shiva, the god of death, like, you either know that and you know what the person is referencing or you don't.

I think it is probably the number one example of a movie from this century that we can point to and say, why don't they make them like this anymore? Because if you want to compare the other movies from that year, for example, like There Will Be Blood or No Country for Old Men, those are in many ways kind of forever movies and very difficult to pull off and very difficult to conceptualize. I don't want to take away from what Tony Gilroy put into this movie

because he made a Swiss watch, but it's much smaller, much more grounded, much more achievable on its face than those big, big movies. And so this feels like if we can't have one as good as Michael Clayton, maybe three that are three quarters as good as Michael Clayton. Yeah. Something that we had gotten used to in the 90s and in the 80s and in the 70s. Like there's a long history of movies like this. And so it is something that I think is very easy to point to and say,

this was the last time this kind of thing was great. And I like adult cult classic, grownups cult classic. That's a great way of framing it. grown-ups called classic. That's a great way of framing it. All of that is true. I think if you got one movie half as good as this, you would feel really good because, again, I think we're underestimating how hard it is to do what this movie does well, well.

Like, is there a doubt, a false note in this movie? Like, is there a moment where you're like, nah, I'm not completely locked in, you aren't doing this exactly right? Is there a bad line of dialogue? Like, is there a bad performance? You texted me and you said every single supporting actor is absolutely lights out.

I, last night, was thinking to myself, is this the greatest thing that Sidney Pollock ever did? Like, across all films made, produced, like, everything. It's a great question. I was watching a Sydney Pollock scene when I texted you. Obviously, Tom Wilkinson and Tilda Swinton have big showy supporting parts. They have, like, old school Hollywood supporting star parts. They both got nominated. We understand why they're so great. To me, the magic of the

movie is Sydney Pollock, Michael O'Keefe, Ken Howard, Merritt Weaver, Dennis O'Hare, these people who pop up, who are theater veterans, who show up in movies for one minute or three minutes at a time. Pollock, of course, a filmmaker, who I think to our generation specifically, emerged more strongly as an elite character actor than as the guy who made Out of Africa.

Right. You know what I mean? Like he had- Or like Three Days of the Condor or, you know, the way we were. It's like- Yeah, Tootsie. Yeah. A number of incredible movies in his career, but he's this guy.

He's the guy from Eyes Wide Shut. You know, in this movie he plays Clayton's boss, a partner at the law firm, somebody who is overseeing in the case of this story, the, um, a civil case against a U-North, which is the kind of Monsanto-esque factory farming agribusiness. And it turns out that their weed killer has been killing people in the middle of the country where it's being used most often. And so there's this civil action against them. And he's trying, the polycharacter's really interesting because he's not a villain.

The movie, it has hitmen. They're not really the villains either. It has a CEO. He's not even really the villain. We know his business is very unethical, and we understand that this movie does have a kind of an ethical point of view. But the villain is another lawyer, a general counsel for a big company who goes to extremes. Yes. Well, yeah, but even she is sort of the, I mean, she is the villain, but she is played

by Tilda Swinton with a tremendous amount of, um, sadness and weakness. Weakness is really, and she's just like a pathetic person, like laying out her pantyhose. Like literally. Very physical performance from her in many ways. Um, and again, another really, really playing against type. Um, Attila Swinton manages to look ordinary in this movie, which... She's gained weight. She's very sweaty. Yeah, I couldn't actually tell whether she gained weight

or was wearing padding, but they do, you know, make a point of shooting her in unflattering corporate clothing. And much of her characterization is the character preparing both physically and, you know, performatively for whatever speech she is gonna put out into the world. Which is, says a lot with a little. But yes, so she is the villain, but Swinton plays it.

And I would even say the character is written like, what are you gonna do? Like it's sort of, she's inherited these problems. Someone else has made the decisions for her. She doesn't really, she's not doing anything with conviction. Um, that last line, you know, there's a great confrontation. And the way she screams, you want the money? Um, it's just like someone so out of their depth the whole time.

So, she is the villain, but like, the system, the larger world is really the villain. And everybody is... Everybody, including Michael Clayton, is playing their part and like has some guilt in them and is, you know, and who within the film feels guilt about that and how much is sort of the closest that you get to heroes and villains.

It is very gray. I wrote down it's a noir with no sex or crime, an imperfect hero who lives in the shadows. It's also a melodrama without any love. Michael Clayton does not have a love interest. Yeah. He's divorced. They don't introduce anyone in a kind of baggy side story to say, oh, well he's living for something.

He does have a son, but even the way that Clooney interacts with the young actor who plays his son, there is a kind of like harshness, a flatness. He has one moment where he really, you know, kind of semi-inspires him by telling him what he is not. But they don't try to force you to love this character in any way, which I think is very admirable. And the sort of thing that in most movies kind of gets noted to death. Like we need to have a moment where we're really rooting for him. And even in the moment that they give us to root for him, where we have this triumphant, like, yes, he won. Yeah.

At the very end of the movie, the camera just trails him all the way to his cab, and him kind of considering, reflecting, thinking about what he's lost, who he is in this world, how he spent his life, how he's gotten himself entangled in all of these gross problems of the world. It's also kind of a samurai movie. Yeah, you put, this was a good observation. You know, a man alone, he's got his own code,

he lives within a system that he has to abide by, but until he decides to break their rules to abide by his own rules, you can really see Gilroy using that framework, or like, like a Knight's Tale kind of framework here too. Very classical kind of writing and, and, and, uh, screen imagination that's going into it that I think just like makes me feel, uh, very seen. You know, these are like the kind of movies that I really, really like, but

it doesn't do it in any kind of showy way. Like the filmmaking style is very simple and clean. You know, it's very intimate. We're really on top of the characters a lot of time. Like you said, it's mostly shot in rooms. A lot of singles going to guys' faces. There's that moment when Sidney Pollock's character and Michael Laque's character and Michael Clayton

are talking about his new contract and the $80,000 bonus. It's like very tense, very funny. He's an asshole. Yeah, oh, it's so good. I love that scene. It's like there's nothing. Yeah. You don't have to see that on the big screen to get it,

which is maybe a little different from a lot of the movies that we'll pick here today, where a lot of them will be grand cinematic achievements. Yeah. This is like, this would have been jammed into a TV show now, and it would have fucking sucked. True, for a number of reasons, including it wouldn't have, you know, it wouldn't be like built

within an inch of its life. And I mean that in a perfect way, like not a wasted moment. Everyone says the exact right thing in like, not a bad line delivery, not perfect. But this, if you turned this into some grand camera exercise, it would take away from what it actually is, which is people saying truths and not quite truths to each other in exciting but depressing ways.

in like exciting but depressing ways. There is like... There is like a grittiness and like an actual literal grayness in Palette to the film that is intentional and I think communicates kind of the darkness and there's, you know, one great, like what I call the working girl shot of like Clooney alone in one tiny box in an office building where you can see all the other office buildings. So, there is visual consideration.

It's just like not getting in the way. No, you're totally right though. The way that a lot of the film takes place at night, when it isn't at night, there are no sunny days here. It's all overcast. It's a certain time of the year. That's all intentional. He's always in a black suit, never really in anything else. Uh, I think the film's legacy, in addition to the meme stuff,

is fascinating because Tom Wilkinson's performance is a big part of the legacy because the other significant meme is the baguettes. Yeah. And I think this is an interesting, complicated portrayal of mental health at a time when maybe we didn't talk about it in the same way that we do now,

where, you know, Michael characterizes him as a manic depressive, the Arthur character, who is this wizardly lawyer who's been a trial lawyer for many years at this very toney firm and is hugely relied upon to power through these big cases for the firm, but is also not well and medicated and becomes, has a kind of spiritual breaking point with this case. Falls in love with a participant in the case, a young woman who's testifying, portrayed by Merritt Weaver. We see on video him having a kind of breakdown

where he strips his clothes off, professes his love to her. We later see him at other times giving these kind of whirling, dervish speeches. He's got this incredibly active mind. I mean, the movie opens with just voiceover of one of his, you know, great monologues that is also clearly an episode of sorts. And just set to really beautifully shot,

chilling portraits of corporate conference rooms. So, and people walking down halls. Yeah, does it remind you of anything? Yeah, no, not at all. No, not at all. And the baguette moment, the meeting. Yeah. Um, you know, it's, it's a very funny thing to post on social media, but it's a very sad

and hard and difficult scene because, you know, Arthur clearly a mentor to Michael Clayton. Right. I had not really clocked this previously, but there's a moment when we're in Michael's office and the camera pans to a photo on his desk and it's Arthur and his son together. And you realize that these are really like, these people mean a lot to each other. Well, that scene when the, and I mean this is just like perfect. This is why Gilroy is one of the great screenwriters, but this son is really into this like Game of Thrones-esque book. Yes.

That he keeps trying to... The Realm Quest? Uh, yeah. Yeah. That he keeps trying to get his dad to read, but instead Arthur and the son end up on the phone and the son is explaining this idea, like the ideas of this fantasy world to this person who is clearly going through like a real mental episode, but also like the themes are speaking to him and it's,

but they also have like some sort of emotional connection. It's pretty devastating. Yeah, Wilkinson is amazing in this movie. We shouldn't not have fun at the expense of the character, but the character is like character is really a tragic figure. Yeah. And someone who, in theory, I think, stands in for people who are truth-tellers, you know? And even though he's got this 30-year record of defending big corporations,

ultimately he has this moment of realization as he gets clear of, you know, his medication, I guess. And I was trying to locate, like, what the movie is really trying to say about that. Like, is it trying to say that if you are in this line of work, you need to delude yourself to kind of continue on and doing that kind of work? Is it actually his break is problematic and, you know, dangerous? And so he is just this sort of like Shakespearean fall from grace type? Like, the movie is a little ambiguous about that.

Yeah, intentionally. I don't think it's trying to give you an answer one way or the other of this is how you should feel about, I think now bipolar is the term for it. But you know, again, it was 2007, so I'm not up on my psych book. again, it was 2007, so I'm not up on my... on my psych book. Anyway. It is about... I think the tragedy is the point. And I think that it's a series of characters

who are all confronted both with... limitations or setbacks and also the opportunity to... to do something, like, more right or less right. And how are they each negotiating it in their own way? And his is like a just like a deep tragedy. And even that scene, I mean, like he's holding the baguettes again, when this movie has visual flourishes, it has visual flourishes, like all time. But that scene itself, the two actors just going at each other. As Zach said last night when we were watching, like, top five movie scenes of the... It is heartbreaking. It is incisive.

It is, I'm not the enemy. Well, then who are you? You know, And it turns even for that character in a way that is a little scary and definitely sad. So, I don't know, I think the ambiguity is the point. The other thing that I wanted to note about the movie is, like a lot of, uh, Gilroy's work, it's very interested in the kind of the intersection of big power and working class people. And Michael Clayton, whenever we get sucked out of the world of the law firm, he basically gets sucked into his family.

So he's got this brother who's struggling with addiction, who caused the flame out of his restaurant. He's got a brother-in-law who's a cop. He's got a sister-in-law, I think they're in Jersey, house in Jersey, or maybe it's in upstate New York, I can't recall where they are. And he's the son of a cop too. And when he's around his family, everybody calls him Mickey. And when he's in the office, everybody calls him Michael.

These are very small choices. Is it not Long Island? It's not like Queens toward Long Island? Because I think at some point, because his detective brother ends up helping him out in a couple of places. And they say I knew your brother out in the... It might, it might, it might have just missed it. It might even be Long Island.

Um, let's just say it's very familiar terrain as I watch the movie. Um, these are very familiar kinds of guys. Um, but I like this kind of... this world and that world. And you know, Michael, in theory, being the one who got out and got away from the working class lifestyle, but is in fact more in the shit than anybody who sees the worst possible things. You know, the famous sequence early in the film when he's summoned to Dennis O'Hare's home where he and Julie, he's just struck a man in the street while

driving. There's a great sequence for a variety of reasons. I love it. Julie White, nary a line of dialogue, crushing as, you know, his very disturbed ex-wife. What is it she's telling us? Was he out having an affair with someone? Was he drinking and driving? Was he just ignoring her? And she had told him not to drive that way for many years?

It could be any of those things. Is she just pissed off because she understands what's coming, even as he's sitting there screaming, what are you going to do? How are you gonna fix it?" Yes. He doesn't... Gilroy doesn't give the words to that scene, but you can draw your own conclusions, and it works so well.

And Dennis O'Hare also... I think Gilroy writes a very good angry dialogue. And Dennis O'Hare... I don't like where this is going. ["I'm not going to do this." laughing.] And he's wonderful. And Clayton, you see that it's a guy who not just is a fixer, but a fixer who's fixed a lot. Yeah.

And is sort of exasperated by people like this. Yeah. And sick of his line of work at this point in his life. So like all of this great stuff, this is characterization, all this stuff is communicated so cleanly and so quickly at the very beginning of the movie. Right. And culminating in the immortal line, I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. I'm a janitor.

Um, this movie has one of the great ifs, what ifs in modern movie history. Yeah. In 2012, Denzel Washington told GQ Magazine that he was offered the part of Michael Clayton and that he turned it down because he was nervous to work with a first-time filmmaker in Gilroy, even though Gilroy had written,

I think, 10 or 12 scripts by this point. What do you think the movie is with Denzel? SONIA DARA, DENZEL It's silly to say that it doesn't work as well because Denzel is one of our great living actors. And you do think of charm and charisma with Denzel times 1,000? Like, you know, as you do with Clooney, so you know that Denzel could pair it back. But by 2007 even, he's one too awesome. Like, he is Denzel, you know? So do you have Denzel? Like are you bringing your Denzel associations you know? So, do you have Denzel? Like, are you bringing your Denzel associations

to the role? And you were sort of to Clooney, but Clooney isn't as... He's not Denzel in every way. It's funny because the thunderous stuff, you know he can do really well. Let's just take a look at what Denzel was doing in 2007. Yeah, but like the thunderous stuff. Clooney raises his voice and Clooney is like, is fighting back, but from a place of just, again, of weakness, you know? Like these are people who don't have it all together. And when Denzel like brings the thunder, you don't, you know, no one, no one can match him.

Right, right. You need somebody who is a little bit more recessed. In 2007, Denzel Washington made American Gangster, and he also directed and starred in The Great Debaters. So this was a very big year for him. Yeah. But neither of those movies did what Michael Clayton did. We won't do a lot of what ifs on this show. That's really more the terrain of the rewatchables. But that one is so famous and so fascinating.

Closing thoughts. How are you feeling about this at 25? Not great. I hope that... You want to explain to people why it's 25? Well, one of the reasons was I wanted to start with a banger. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's what's important. It was like sometimes you gotta start when you're making a list. Yeah.

Really when you're doing anything. It's just like a tip for, I don't know, event planning, list making, life work in general. Yeah. Bring the people in. This is a tasty amuse-bouche for 25 for 25. I think that there is something in the competency porn of the movie that is very satisfying.

The movie's runtime is one hour and 59 minutes and 55 seconds. It's almost like it is intentionally a shade under two hours to show you, look what I can do in this time. A lot of the movies, we'll talk about it a lot longer in this movie. And that's okay, I love a long movie.

But this is representative of a very specific kind of Hollywood stratagem that is no longer really present anywhere. And that I miss dearly. I'd always rooted for Clooney. I always liked Clooney. I always felt like he made really weird choices with the one or two exceptions all the way up until this point. This is the time to me, not Siriana,

not even Ocean's Eleven, because he's really... You know, he's got Brad Pitt and Julia Roberts, and he's kind of leaning on a lot of people in those movies, even though he's great. I think he's working with them. He's working with them. Um, he's a great screen presence. This is a great screen performance.

Agree. And I think this is a wonderful movie. Will we regret this place? Do you think you'll regret it? I do think that we will get people interested with this. And that's the point. Mission accomplished. Yeah, and also, listen, like, we love this movie

and are kind of mad at ourselves, but this is the game. This is the game. I believe we'll be back next week with number 24. Oh, exciting. So we need to record that soon. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, and our video producer, Jack Sanders. We'll be back later this week on this pod

with a new draft, 1982, with a special guest who I won't announce. Oh. We'll see you then.