The Big Picture - The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 5 - 'Lady Bird’

Episode Date: November 12, 2025

Sean and Amanda return to continue their yearlong project of listing the 25 best movies of the 21st century so far. Today, they discuss Greta Gerwig’s ‘Lady Bird,’ one of the greatest coming-of-age films ever made. They explain why this is the most defining millennial movie of all time, unpack its quintessential portrayal of a complicated mother-daughter dynamic, and sort through the difficult decision to choose this as the official Gerwig selection over ‘Little Women’ and ‘Frances Ha.’ Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Jack Sanders Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan®. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there®. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennacy. And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about Lady Bird. And different things can be sad. It's not all war. I was wondering if we should have done that where I read the Chalamee lines and you read Lady Bird's lines. There are a lot of things that she says to him that I really don't want to say to you or vice versa. What do you mean? But I did note you filled out the shell of this outline, and then I did everything else.

But I thought it was funny that you'd picked a quote from that one Chalemasey, and out of all the many quotes that you could have picked. That is actually my favorite exchange in this movie. So let's talk about Lady Bird. This is, of course, written and directed by Greta Gerwig. It is her solo feature directorial debut. She did co-direct a movie with Joe Swanberg in the 2000s, but Lady Bird is her big announcement as a big filmmaker.

It's, of course, stars Sir Sir Sharon. Lori Metcalf, our pal Tracy Letts, Lucas Hedges, Timothy, Salome, Beanie Feldstein, Stephen McKinley-Henderson, Lois Smith, wonderful cast. This film premiered at the Telluride Film Festival in 2017 in a simpler time. Were you there? In movie history, I was not there. That was right before I started attending Telluride. I'm sorry to have missed it. And this is our coming-of-age pick.

And I'm wondering if you think that that is the primary reason why we have chosen this movie about a young one. who attends Catholic high school in Sacramento, California, and then tries to figure out where her life is going from there. Well, it's not our only coming of age pick. It's our most traditional, recognizable, hits all the notes of teenage girl in high school, dealing with high school and what comes next, and parents and boys and getting out of there.

We have plenty of movies that are also, about people figuring things out at a point in their lives. I put Michael. Michael Clayton is actually a coming of age movie. It's just about a man who comes of age a little bit later in life and to some harsher realities

than what's going on here in Lady Bird. Though again, that's a matter of perspective. This has, all of the stakes are here in life. And that's particular to what it feels like to be 17 and figuring out world and figuring out your relationship to your parents and to sex and to what you're going to be on your own. But no corporations are brought down in this movie, but there is just like a really deeply felt recognizable, but still very particular to Greta Gerwig arc of someone just

trying to figure out what it's going to be. And her like the stakes are the rest of her life. Yes, Greta is, let's spend some time talking about her because we were both living in New York when she came of age as a movie actress and she appeared in a lot of mumblecore films in the 2000s. She's a person who, if you were at, I'm trying to think of what's an appropriate bar that I probably saw her in like the Pink Pony maybe

on the Lower East Side in the 2000s. She was just there. Max Fish, which is I think the bright next door. I don't even know if those bars are still there anymore, but she was a person who was just around that, like, I had mutual friends of. I never met her. I didn't know her.

But she was just kind of a staple of a certain kind of like artistic young person trying to make it in New York City as opposed to in Los Angeles. And that does play in ultimately to Lady Bird. And it has been kind of fascinating to watch her become really the rocket ship of our generation.

I mean, she is... the signature millennial filmmaker? Is that too strong a thing to say? No, but some of it is because of the projects that she's chosen and she has leaned into that a little bit, right? Like this is a signature millennial movie along with a voice of a generation from girls, but it is...

But that's... Girls is sort of like about... Yeah, yes. Real life, Greta Gourwick. But this is, part of the reason that this is such like a... millennial movie is because it's set in 2002 and it is very much like, okay, we are going to use the millennial references. We are setting it, it takes on the mantle, right? And she, in a different way, takes on the mantle with little women. And certainly with Barbie is like, okay, watch this.

You know, like, I'll do it. I can, I can take the IP and the doll of it all and turn it on its head and turn this into like a billion dollar thing. So she, she has embraced in her own way, I think, being like, okay, I will be a voice of a generation. There are a lot of filmmakers who kind of emerged at the same time as her and speak to, like, don't speak quite as literally to millennial ideas, but like definitely are grouped. To me, there's like a class, like a mid-aughts, like class of filmmakers. The rest of them are men.

She's the only woman, so maybe that has something to do with it. I'm sure there are some women, but that's sort of like the most celebrated, most touted, box office successful of those filmmakers. And, you know, you mentioned this in the doc here that we didn't pick any of their movies. We didn't pick any movies from Ari Aster or from Ryan Coogler or the Saftees or who else is on that list? Damien Chiselle, there are no Chiselle movies on this list. Heartbreaking for me, of course.

That was tough. That was on the bubble. Right on the bubble. And I think the selection committee will, episode, we'll discuss that. Yes. We've already talked about Barry Jenkins, Moonlight, and this is another, this is a year after, Moonlight, in the mood for love, could also stand it.

Like five different movies are standing in for Moonlight. Yes. On our list. I put, you know, Alex Garland is not on this list either. Yeah. Yeah. What's that about? I would have chosen next Machina, a film I love.

This is also, I believe, the only 824 film on our list. And I think a lot of those filmmakers that we just named there, participated in the rise of 824 as the signature independent film studio really is certainly in a post-Winstein world and that is quite interesting because when this movie was released it became 824's biggest hit of all time

we think of 824 and like oh hereditary and now civil war like these are the box office hits brawny you know male driven male filmmakers the broie mentality around the fandom but Lady Bird made 70 million dollars This movie was a huge hit, huge hit. And one of the reasons why I was a huge hit, I think, and you feel free to check me on this,

is it's a very familiar outfit, a very familiar set of clothing. There is, each generation gets a... Oh, you mean like the literal wardrobe? No, no, I mean the framework of the movie. Oh, sure, yeah, yeah, sure. Like when I wore my Catholic schoolgirl uniform, it was very familiar to me. No, just that, you know, there are a lot of movies over the years about teenagers or adolescents figuring out how to go into the world,

it just had the modern context that if you were anywhere between the ages of 16 and 35 when this movie came out, just felt tremendously resonant. You know, I'm sure if you were older as well, but we were in our 30s when this movie came out. I mean, it is a millennial spin on a John Hughes movie, or at least that's like, you know, one framework of what it is.

There is a lot more going on in it, which is, I think, one of the reasons it's a great movie. But yeah, we are a condition to teen in high school, trying to make sense of the world with pop cultural references, with this very recognizable soundtrack, reading a book that you recognize from your time.

This is, because it came out in 2017 and is about 2002, is sort of time capsulie, which is the way that you and I experienced John Hughes movies because we are not of that generation. but those were being made at the moment for the audience that was seeing them. Yes. It was all being a teenager at that time in history.

And so there is a layer of both nostalgia and, you know, kind of like memory and examination to this movie that I think makes us slightly more sophisticated. But yeah, it's like it's still, if you Google best teen movies, like Lady Bird comes up. Yeah. I've done Jags on like the recent history. movie, but I think it's a fairly unexplored concept of setting your movie somewhere between five and 15 years in the past, which means that it's a little

easier to get over the hump from a budget perspective in terms of production design and music. Everything feels a little bit more relatable. And it also, it bridges two generations to get emotionally invested. Like, there are cell phones in this movie, you know what I mean? It is not an ancient text.

But they're not texting. The cell phone is introduced at the end. You don't have to reproduce anything on screen. I do wonder in five years, or 10 years what the recent history movies will look like. I think some of the appeal of this particular setting is that you don't have to deal with supplements. Yeah, maybe. It's a little hard to say.

The thing that's interesting to me about this from our perspective is Greta is 42. She is literally right between me, almost a year, exactly, between the two of us and age. And so her cultural reference points and her point of view and the things that interest her, this movie makes me feel the way that my parents must have felt watching The Big Chill.

Or I'm like, this is alarmingly close to, if not the literal details of my life, then the emotional details of how it feels to go through the world. I don't know how anyone watches the Big Chill and feels anything other than like, wait, so why did Kevin Klein sleep with Mary Kay Place? Like, I just said it. Well, because generationally, that was hangover from like a group of people who thought they were going to have like a free love, loose, radical world, you know? Yeah, okay, I guess.

But to me, it maps on perfectly. I'm not saying that the details of the Big Chill are specific to Lady Bird, but I think that there is something about what people thought their lives are going to be and how they turned out. Sure. And there's something about the aspirations of Lady Bird, who's this really forthright, yeah, fearless, difficult, you might say, challenging, teenage girl. She expresses herself.

Yes, inspired, but a bit frustrating. Yeah, the nifty thing about the ladybird character in that context of, like, you know, teen heroes and heroines and movies is that she is not, like, the popular cheerleader. She is not the all-American everything makes sense to me, girl. She's a little bit of an outsider. To your point, like, she doesn't always behave. She is a little provocative from time to time. and she doesn't, like, fit neatly into the traditional high school social structure. But she's not a loser.

Like, she has friends. She has a lot of confidence, you know? She, like, runs for office every year and makes really weird art posters. And when she's speaking to the principal about it, she's like, it's a tradition of mine. Like, don't worry, I won't win. She is, she has, like, great ambitions, but, like, is not great at school. She's not flailing. She is just, like, in development as opposed to fully developed.

And it's nice that she's complex, but it's also just nice that, like, she has a sense of her place in the world already that she has confidence. Because so many of these characters are just like the sad girls in the corner who then, like, get magically, like, you know, wanded into the pretty girl in the dress at the end. Yeah, she's all that. Yeah, exactly. And that's depressing. Well, one of the things that I think is most perceptive about this movie that I very much relate to is that in the typical Hollywood orthodoxy of these kinds of stories, it's very much about the cool kids and the uncool kids, the jocks and the nerds. To me, I was a person who prided himself on straddling the line as much as I could between that concept. But to me, school was always separated, and this film is clearly very separated by class.

Yeah. That this is a movie about what do you have and what do you not have? And what do you see other people have and what do you want? A big part of Lady Bird's kind of desire for the concept of happiness is if only I could live in this house, if only I could be on this side of the tracks, if only I could have these things, then I would feel more whole, which is a very adolescent perspective, but is also an adult perspective, too. Well, she and her mom go open house shopping on a Senate, like in a moment of reconciliation.

Like, do you want to end in a moment when Lady Bird is feeling very. low because she just had on special sex with the Kyle character, played by Timothy Shalomey, to make her feel better, they go to all the fancy houses. And it lingers on not just Lady Bird, but also her mother, played by Lori Metcalfe, admiring, you know, the tiling in the kitchen, the windows, the, and it is shot in a beautiful way that understands the power of good real estate and and sunlight and the in those rooms the world just seems more open than it does in their own home which is smaller is um it feels cramped everyone's waiting for the bathroom all the time um yeah it is like it is very very much about class and money like they are

the the references there's the famous like i need to buy this magazine that's something the rich people do. We're not rich people. You know, they're always shopping at the thrift store, the mom always needs an extra shift. Just like the constant work that it takes should just barely get by, which is true of so many Americans, but not something you often see in a movie like this. Yeah, because they're usually Hollywood productions and that would get in the way. There are some exceptions to that across, you know, all the years that we talked to say anything recently on the 1989 draft. That's a movie that has some interest in the idea of class. Pretty in pink. Like it's, you know, most of the John Hughes kids live in like very, very fancy Chicago suburbs, but not all of them.

Yes. But this one feels different. I think also the idea of this being an independent film and a film, you know, Greta's roots are an independent film that there is like a little bit more realism colliding with some of that Hollywood sensibility in a way that is very appealing. You know, we still do see Lucas Hedges' grandmother's home. We do still see the elegant side of Sacramento recently portrayed in one battle after another as well. Is that actual house in Lady Bird? Because they do the montage of that street when she's walking around? Yeah, and I was like, is that it?

I think it could be. I think it could be. Yes. And that's the other thing, too, is that Greta Gourke is from Sacramento. This film was set in Sacramento. Yeah. A city that until recently was not seen on screen very often is, you know, even though it is the capital of our state is often considered kind of second city.

I have been. I don't really remember why I was there, but I have been. I didn't spend a lot of time there. I've never been. I think it was in a connecting flight out of Sacramento. So I wasn't doing the Lady Bird tour. Not that it seems like there's a ton to see. But, you know, my friend Cole Kuchner, who hosts the Dysack podcast, he lives in Sacramento.

He loves Sacramento. That would be real emphasis on my friend there. I don't. I don't even know. I don't. I don't know Cole. But I was just kind of like. Cole is wonderful.

He's a genius. I think this is a very smart movie, not just about class, but about what it means to live in a second city as well. Because so much of what Lady Bird wants is this idea of like getting out. Yeah. of getting free, of seeing what else is out there. I assume you related to that. Oh, yeah, deeply. Not that Atlanta is like a second city, but it's not New York.

Well, I don't know. I'm not going to speak down to the Atlanta people. I know that you had a tough experience there, but that was on you and the mess. Had nothing to do with the fine people of Atlanta. That's because you went to Truroes Park. So outside the city walls. But also just the idea of like going to New York and this like, fancy life of, like, writers and culture.

And, you know, as she says in the car, I want to go somewhere where there is culture, like New York or Connecticut or New Hampshire, where writers live in the woods. Which I literally did go to college in New Hampshire where writers live in the woods. So, you know, I, like, I get it. You didn't stay in New Hampshire, though. This, no, I didn't. This film opens with a Joan Didian quote about Sacramento, a very knowing quote. about Sacramento, which is like a, you know,

Gourweig's homage to the great Sacramento that went before her. But also, like, we were all trying to be Joan Didion, you know, for 15 years there and, like, moving to New York and then, I guess, having a nervous breakdown and moving to L.A. and trying to write screenplays with our husband. I've done two out of three. Who can relate? Yeah. So, you know, even that is, like, a very generational, it's, uh, it's like, I, I, I, I, I,

have always felt deeply understood, and like never quite indicted by Greta Gerrig, but, you know, like the Leo meme, the Leo once upon a time name. Yeah, I think it's because her films are so warm. You know, there's just the real sense of, even though Lady Bird and her mother have this deeply fractious relationship that I know is very common among many mothers and daughters, and you can talk about that better than I can, the energy, the way that the film is shot, the way that the scenes and interiors are lit, the way that the music is used, the connection between. certain people, especially I find between Lady Bird and Beanie Feldstein's character. That is a very tender portrayal. It's the titular role. Well, that part's not so tender, but, you know, near the end of the film, when she goes over to her apartment, that's a very special thing to portray. So her movies do have, I think, a very, if they're indicting anyone, it's kind of the self.

It's like the one's own desire to be bigger than we are. It's ironic because is anybody bigger than Greta Gerwig now? Can a movie be bigger than Barbie? And so it's fascinating to watch her progression as a director because she's kind of, she's going up and up and up. Yeah. Her next thing is Narnia. You know, I don't, where do you even go after that?

I mean, I personally would love to see her scale down back a bit because she's so good at this kind of film. But tell me about mothers and daughters, because Lori Metcalfe is such a wonderful performance in this movie, a legendary actor. Yeah. You know, cinema is obviously built on fathers and sons. and you guys just not been able to work things out.

And so I... I've heard from my dad this morning. Oh, that's nice. Hi, Mr. Fantasy. He said, how are you doing? Yeah, you can call Med. Do you think that... No, I can't.

But that's okay. He's a real Mr. Fantasy. He's a real Mr. Fantasy forever. Do you... Will he be okay with Lady Bird, or do you think, or is he still smart and about Marie Antoinette? I don't think he would care for Marie Antoinette.

Okay. I think he'd be okay with this. Okay. I'll bet Grace loves this. Grace and I haven't talked about it. Hi, Grace. But I'm sure Grace loves Lady Bird. Yes.

So I've learned a lot about fathers and sons over the years. Yeah, you don't say. From watching movies. And now I'm learning about it firsthand. So far everything's pretty good. Yeah. Going to take a turn at some point. No, your husband is a wonderful father.

He is. And so far it seems uncomplicated. But, you know, past generations didn't really have that workout. Yeah. We don't really have a lot of mother. daughter movies. And there are some mom movies, but even those are mostly made by a male director and about mother's son, which listen, you know, like I, I'm living that. I appreciate it. Yeah. You are a boy mom. Yeah. But there is, and something very, very specific, even though it affects,

you know, like half the world or at least a quarter of the world, like a lot of people, about moms and daughters that is complicated and often ugly and like you don't really outgrow that's the other thing I hadn't seen this film in a couple years

and so I was watching it now I still mostly relate to Lady Bird I'm watching the Lori Medcalf character and I'm like a little bit like what are you doing and I'm kind of watching as a mother but also I don't know if I'll ever let go of being

maybe like I will always be a daughter of a mother when watching this sort of dynamic because it lives on and you like can't really escape it like the mom figure looms so large yeah yeah in our understanding no i mean of course i relate to that because of all the dad's son movies that have come over the years i think that character is really interesting because lorry metcalf i think to most people is um rosanne's sister you know on on uh on on rosanne and the conners and you know i think to people who pay a little bit closer attention. She's a legendary stage actress and with deep roots in Chicago and Steppenwolf. And she is known for taking on thorny parts, complicated people. And she's a very

assertive and strong actor. She's like a real tidal wave kind of actor when she's on screen. You know she's in a scene. So she's a perfect fit for this part because she is attempting to control her daughter. It's incredible performance. The performances across this movie are no perfect. But her mom, I mean, the way that I read it, and I'm sure that I'm projecting some of my own mother onto this movie. But, you know, my mom was a product of that big chill generation. She was a person in the 60s and 70s who felt like she not only had her whole life in front of her, but felt like the world was changing because of her. Right. And then life can get very disappointing.

And how do you handle it? And when you have kids and you see your kids wanting more, but you know that you can't give them specifically what they want and how bad that. that makes you feel, there's a very specific energy in that performance and in this character that I feel like I really understand and I really like, and is really rare the complexity of it because Lori McHath is so unafraid to be unlikable, to be difficult. Right. And I think that Gerwig and the script are unafraid to make the mother character like pretty ugly at times. And, you know, I wrote in here like as a joke, Mama Corner, like, is she a good mom?

But she's the person. She's a person and it's and she's going through stuff and it's a very tricky life. She's exhausted because she's working all of the time. And she's dealing with a teenager who is like a pill and a half. And she seems dissatisfied or disappointed or, you know, to your point about like it didn't work out. There's one line she has of like your father and I didn't think we would be living in the same house 25 years ago. like when we bought it. So, but she's really, really just also like hard and like a hard person to deal with.

And she is. You know, the depiction of motherhood in a popular culture or in American culture is something that I argue with on a daily basis. But it is rarely presented as something that is like you always have to be a Madonna or you have to be failing at the job. Right? You can't be like an ugly person. So until this year's slate of movies. But this one is like this is all of the mom movies this year about how hard it is to be a mom. And this is not, Lori McHoff isn't the star of this movie. She's just a person who exists who is not making all the right decisions, but trying her best. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's nothing better than having friends who support you and your power. Think of all of the times on this show when you've had to sit here and listen to me talk about my love for physical media and all of my recent Blu-ray splurges. Yes. Like those friends and like me, State Farm is there to help you along the way. With so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have support in finding what fits for you. Go online at statefarm.com or use the award-winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. One of the things that's also so perceptive about it, though, is that it's so clear how much Lady Bird is an echo of her mother.

Yeah. That there are so many things that she does, that there's so many social encounters that she has where the people that she is closest to, she's so hard on. But the people who she wants to be, like, who she's like, she knows less well. Right. She can be very warm to. We see Laurie Metcalf's character be very warm to people in a work environment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because she doesn't, there's not as much on the line.

But Lady Bird is really tough on Beaniefeld scenes character. She starts to be really tough on these boys who she starts to become engaged with. She's absolutely horrible to everyone in her family, except for her father, who is sort of the mediator between these two very strong-willed characters. And also even says at some point, you know, the birthday scene when Tracy Lutz brings in the cupcake. Because the mom is not even acknowledging her 18th birthday, which I just... I mean, what would Dr. Becky say? You know what I'm saying? I don't really want to know.

She's tough. She's a tough gal, her mom. Yeah. And the dad character says, like, you and your mother are both very strong personalities. Like, it is both mirrored in Lady Bird's more aggressive social interactions and, like, in the actual dialogue between the characters. I like when Tracy's character wants some of the cupcake, you know? She's like, you want some? He's like, yes, I do.

Well, I like at the post-graduation dinner, when the Lucas Hedges character comes over, Danny comes over, and, like, asks about the wait list. And it just cuts to the dad character who's just like, oh, fuck. I'm really busted because I'm caught between these two women. I've already had some experiences like that where things have been asked and I've given them. And then all of a sudden, you know, the secrets are not safe. Tracy's wonderful in this movie. You know, I heard an interview with Greta where she talked about she'd not seen Tracy. this soft of a part as a father.

And he talked about in an interview how he was not a father when they made this movie. And so he had to kind of tap into something that he didn't have personal experience with. You know, he's just a, he's a warm bath in this movie. He's a very, a very gentle soul of this character. I aspire to this level of fatherhood. This is the kind of relationship I would like to have. And if that makes me a push over, I don't care. Also, the enunciation of the word Doritos.

Stellar. It's really beautiful, poetic stuff. Yeah, let's talk about Sersha Ronan. So she is the star, of course. Yeah. And she was a teenager when this film was made. Is that right? Let's see.

I don't know if she's 30 now. So she might be, she might have been like 22. She's 31. Okay. So this movie was made eight years ago. She's 22 when this movie was made me, 21. So still fairly close. So it was like eight years ago?

2017, yeah. Yeah. But probably made in 16 as well. Right. She's like 18, 19, 20. Right. Yeah. Um, quite eerie, how talented she is at this age and how...

I mean, she's been talented. She was talented in Hana, the Joe Wright movie, you know, an atonement. Yeah, she's like 11. Yeah, she has a real gift, but she's great in this. It was funny rewatching it now that we've like, you know, it's been almost 10 years of, and I say this with love, Big Gerwig, and Greta Gerwig lives so much in my own brain that you can hear the line readings, as Greta Gerwig would say them. And I think that that is really a function of this is, you know, she is such a recognizable

writer and has such particular cadence in the way that she puts words and dialogue together that it's just built in that Sertia Ronan kind of sounds like her. But this is the way that Greta Gerwig speaks at all times. It's funny, though, because obviously she's been on the show a few times. I've been a few times. She's just very warm, sweet. Her public persona is very kind. And obviously, teenagers are tough.

But she has, she's gone to great lengths to say that this is not a full-blown autobiography. Right, right, right, right. That, like, there are shades of her life in this movie, obviously the location and the idea of some relationships. But that one of the things that I found amusing was that the character that she often relates to a lot in this movie is Kyle. And that she was a little bit of a, you know, what you really don't understand about the world is this kind of conspiracy theorizer. Right, the cell phones. Yes, which I find very relatable, of course. Kyle, one of the most relatable characters in movie history for me.

I mean, when he shows up reading People's History of the United States, it was just like a shot straight to my heart. If you don't think that I got a copy of that book from my high school boyfriend, then you do not know what it means to be a millennial. Yeah. Did you do some learning at how it all works here? A little bit. It gave me any of that. He gave me electric cool aid asset test. Oh, yeah. And he gave me the white album.

So, wow. I'd say that's an incredible list, right? But so, like, when I say I feel indicted by this movie. Wow. He was trying to get you to tune in, turn on, and drop out. I guess so. Did you? Not really.

No, you're like, I'm going to Dartmouth. That's very funny. Chalemay, another thing that Gerwig said that I thought was really interesting was that she was kind of intimidated by Timothy Chalemay during the making of this movie because even at 20 years old, she said he spoke French and Italian and he played the piano. And he had the aura. He has a tremendous aura. She sort of invented Timothy Shalmy.

You know, in the way that... Even two of his best parts, that's for sure. Yeah, and also, like, and early on and understanding the, like, the sex appeal and the, the, ooh, it's like, Timmy, aura around him and translating it to a wider audience. I don't... He would not be, to me, as he is today, without these two performances. I fully agree with you. I do think that that's a big thing with directors is knowing how actors will succeed. And this movie is perfectly cast, like, all around the board.

You can see she also has a real admiration for character actors like Stephen McKinley Henderson, Lois Smith. People have had long careers who just dot perfectly into the lives. Now, you went to private school, but you didn't go to Catholic school? Was your Catholic school? No, it was not. It was sort of non-denominational Christian. I really don't want to get into it. No uniforms.

No uniforms. I was going to ask about. No clergy figures as teachers. I see. but in your private life, many clerical figures. I also did not go to a Catholic school or private school, so that is one thing my dad did, and there was a bit of a bit of a dispute in my youth

about whether or not I would or should go and whether or not you get a better education at a Catholic school. And I suspect that that's also kind of underpinning even this family dynamic where you've got this middle class or lower middle class family. Miguel saw somebody get nice. knifed. Exactly.

It was barely stabbed or whatever, so it's really funny. All that stuff is also very perceptive. Yeah. All the decision making, everything is very specific. I was talking with Van on Bill's show recently, and he noted the, like, first album complex for rappers, where that first album where your whole life goes into it, and it often is your best work, Naus Elmatic, that sort of thing.

This is kind of the elmatic of, of, millennial first-time directorial debuts where it's like there's so much personhood, so much experience that is in this movie. I'm really kind of blown away by all the little details. Yeah, it's a statement of intent, for sure. Though I don't know if we would have recognized that completely at the time because so many, like, Greta Gerwig themes, money, class,

like young women trying to figure out their world in regards to money and class, and independence, how to make art, the anxiety of making art, the power of Timothy Shalame. Like, I mean, there are, like, real themes, even through Barbie. So I think when it debuted, it just felt like a, like, fully realized, like, okay, this person has total command of the world that you want to create, wants to create, how to write a script, what performance is. But I don't think that we understand that it was, like,

opening a whole portal to Gerwigland, and both little women and Barbie so far have been, like, very consistent in her project. I don't know how she's going to make Chronicles of Narnia do that, but, you know, never count her out. I did ask her when she was on for Barbie about how all of her work is about these transitional adolescent phases, how everything is about this idea.

Literally the door and the thing. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, obviously this movie is about going from one phase to the next as a teenager. Little women is also very much the exact same thing, just in that broad thematic sense. And then Barbie, too, is just Barbie becoming a real girl, you know, and developing sexually reproductive organs. And then now Narnia, too, is very similarly that thing. I had to go to Century City the other day, and I was just like, I'm in Century City.

Yeah, it's a fine part of town. It's just funny. She's very funny. There's something interesting that she's, do you feel hooked on your adolescence? Do you think about it often? I try not to at all, which is what's so interesting. I don't like to feel awkward or embarrassed or uncertain. And that was a period of not knowing anything, right?

And I don't like change very much. And I don't think I was as confident as Lady Bird. is or that I am now, hopefully. So. Love to put confident and hopefully in the same sentence. Question mark? I don't know. I was feeling good there.

It's, I just really, the time change. I have seasonal affective disorder. You know, I've just been really knocked off. It's been very dark lately here in Los Angeles. But. Very early. So I try not to think about it. I don't run towards the cringe, which is a thing that I think, I think that's a social media

thing. I think millennials do that. And I think Greta Gerwig has a way of, she runs toward the cringe. I mean, certainly that's all MumbleCore was about. But to your point, finds the warmth and the empathy for it, I kind of still just judge myself. So I prefer not to think about it. Okay. Thanks for sharing all of that.

Well, you asked me. Do you, like, were you your best? Did you peak at 13? When did you peak? Some saying hasn't happened yet. I don't really know the answer to that question. I think I'd like to give an honest answer, so I'm trying to think about the best way to answer this.

I relate to Lady Bird and that I have lived a life of aspiration, that I have tried to get out from under what I think I came from. Yeah. And that can be a very ugly way to be or that can be a very empathetic way to be. And I do think I got out to Los Angeles and I was like, I'm here. I really wanted to be here and I'm here and I have a job that I think is cool and I feel happy but that all started when I was around her age

in fact we did an episode about the movie friendship and also Lilo and Stitch earlier this year as usual a very normal episode of this show and on that episode I talked about my friend Sarah and my friend Sarah who was like with me when I was that age and I hadn't talked to her in a little while and she reached out to me and she was just like I remember you you at this time talking about these things.

I mean, we probably had similar conversations. At this time, would that be like in the garage and friendship era of your life? No, no, no. No. In between, like Lady Bird era. Like 15 in the cafeteria talking about what we want to be or who we want to be. Oh, okay. So that aspect of this, that desire, I don't know what to be seen,

but to be like to be a way and to be doing something exciting. Yeah. That that is just, I think, a deeply relatable idea that's inside of this movie. The best photograph of me ever taken was the photo ID for college, by first, where I left, like, my, you know, I got checked in and then I had to go. Because you were so happy? You've never seen someone happier. I wish I still had it. So I guess in that sense, did I peek?

Like, yeah, in that moment, because I was like, I'm, I'm gone. I can be on myself. It's so interesting that a movie that is about home is so identifiable as a movie about escape. You know, that's a very nicely threaded needle there. She can't make the phone call back at the end if she doesn't get out, you know? It's true. There has to be a change in order for them to, and some distance, really, for them to be able to make peace with each other, which is like, it's a beautiful ending to this movie, but also a little sad. Like, it's pretty sad that Lauren Metcalf, like, the Lauren Metcalf character of the mom, like, doesn't actually finish or give her any of the letters.

Like, she can't get there. And they, like, have a nice family dynamic where there's. a dad in the middle who knows to be able to bridge the connection, but she never really expresses what she wants to say. And Lady Bird takes back her name and calls her parents, but like she does it, you know, it's a voicemail. It's not even talking to her mom. It's, it's from New York to Sacramento. She's just, you know, been at the hospital for being drunk, which I really relate to the nurse on that one. Like, what do you want me to do? She's drunk. Like, that's a real amateur first-year party. Like, why are we calling the ambulance? Yeah, the, the, the, I would

argue. I was also like, how much did that cost? What are we doing? Wow. Didn't you worry? Don't you worry about that? Hillary Clinton's number one enemy has emerged. No, no, no. I'm just kind of like, like, you know. This happens all the time at college parties. What do you mean? You had, you were calling the ambulance? I mean, I wasn't calling the ambulance. When people were barfing? I, it's called Buden Rally. Like, Jesus Christ. That is true. It is called that. I, uh, I did famously split my head open. Well, that you got to go. But then I didn't go. And then I went to urgent care on campus the next morning and I had to get 25 stitches in my forehead. Okay. And that was Where? I can't see it. I know. It's almost entirely gone. Oh, good job. But for years I had a

huge scar right here and it has slowly gone away. And going to sleep that night was not the best idea. No. So, you know, I'm glad that Lady Bird got her ass into an ambulance and got out of there, you know. I think someone could have just taken there. Who was she with David? What was that guy's name at the end? I don't know. He seems pretty boring. Well, he's just a classic guy you meet in college.

Yeah, the freshman year. I was that guy once. I'm worried about the cost of the ambulance. You know what I mean? Sure. You think that was coming out of a parent's salary? I don't know. That's what I'm stressed about.

Okay. Well, the movie's over, so don't worry about it. I do love how the movie ends, as you described, in great detail that it's not, there's no phony baloney Hollywood bullshit. No. It's not like a tearful call between her and her mom or her mom shows up on her dorm room doorstep and says, I've always loved you and I'm so proud of you. There's none of that shit because that's not how things are.

The movie, the fact that this movie was such an amazing success and was so honored, despite not giving you that, is a wonderful testimony, I think, to where what I'll describe as a good movie era really settles into place. This is a nice time in movie history. We didn't quite know specifically how good we had it. There's something a little bittersweet about this being the year that we launched. this show that like 17, 18, 19, that was a very good time in movies. And it feels like it's kind of slipping through our fingers a little bit. Yeah. And, well, I mean, 17 in particular,

we named a lot of people who aren't on our list. That was also the year of Get Out, which is Jordan Peel's debut. And that's another person. That was the year of Phantom Threat. That was the year of Call Me by Your Name. Speaking of Timothy Shalame, so like this was sort of the Timothy Shalame moment. That was the year of Dunk. that it was a really loaded year, but it also felt like for a lot of filmmakers at the beginning of something. I agree.

It was also the year that Moonlight won Best Picture. Right. Because it won that February, and it was the La La Land Moonlight Best, you know, everything in the movie world just felt very exciting. It was smaller, but exciting. Like all of those movies you described

were not $500 million movies. They were all smaller films, but they were very special films and they're very memorable films. I think that's also, the bigger films, films, that was the Last Jedi year, right? Which in terms of even in franchise world, it was a director very, you know, close to this

generation and Ryan Johnson doing something like very cool with big budget entertainment. And then it definitely like worked out very well. Everyone's response to that was very normal. The Last Jedi? Yeah. Is there some controversy around it? People did good. And then what they did with the franchise was also really strong.

Yeah. And so many good movies since then. Yeah. I want to talk before we get into the rest of this. legacy conversation, just that the music, too. Because I do remember the stories at the time when it was being released that Greta wrote letters to people like Dave Matthews band, and I think Alanis Morissette, and a handful of other artists who appear on the soundtrack of this movie.

Did you know that Alanis Morissette wrote this song in 10 minutes? I can believe it. I was just quoting. Oh, yeah. Hand in my pocket, yeah. Just good dialogue writing or good improv if it's... Probably written, you would imagine written. there's a ton of songs

on this sound this is a really good conceit for a soundtrack which is like here's five songs that are ingrained in your soul if you were born between 1980 and 1988 and then here are a handful

of like well-known kind of I don't know you know like memorable needle drops like as we go along by the monkeys and then here are a couple of like smaller films that you might not know or smaller songs you might not know as well

but that are critical like I think specifically of John Hartford's this eve of parting in the way that that's played near the end of the film which is very, very emotionally powerful. You know, just like,

this is an indicator of taste, right? And then also the work of Steven Sondheim. I was just, I absolutely so funny, every single moment of it. And also that it plays such a big role

in a coming of age movie. You know, it's one of those things where it's, it's hilarious and smart, and it's a familiar formula like turned 20 degrees or maybe like,

60 degrees off its axis. And some of it is like in-joke stuff where Lady Bird in her audition sings, everybody says don't from anyone can whistle, which is like a much less known Sondheim. I think the song is usually performed by Harry Gordino. Like it's a man's song. It's not a woman's song. You know, it's just one of those things where like that's a deep cut.

Like she's really in the streets with Sondheim references in this movie. It's not the most obvious thing you would expect. I mean, also why is the high school doing Merrily We Roll Along just because it's funny? But it's also that beautiful thing with the teacher, Stephen McKinley Henderson character who's like they didn't get it at the end of the performance, you know, like that just that everybody is kind of living their own quiet, tough, creative existence. You know, everyone's got their dreams and aspirations and nothing is quite living up. There's an Ani DeFranco song on the soundtrack. How much goddamn Oni DeFranco was the women's soccer team in my high school playing every day? Yeah. And then, yeah. And then for the rest of your life. With Eileen. Yes, and now my wife, that's one of her favorite singers. Bone Thugs, The Crossroads, playing at the school dance. It's really funny.

It's like one of those like A-plus moments, you know, probably not on like Mo Bamba playing during one battle this year. There's a bunch of them, you know, and Dave, we grew up with Dave Matthews, you know? Listen. I can't say I listen to him a lot nowadays. I don't. Did this, like, turn the tide culturally? Yeah, back on him.

I think it was this scene. I think it was this scene and everything that Yasi Salik has done for the the last five years to reinvigorate our appreciation of Dave Matthews band. Right. But it was something that we were all ashamed of. I mean, listen, all of those albums went so hard for me from fourth grade maybe to like 10th, 11th grade. And then the electric Kool-Aid acid test white album boyfriend was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not doing that anymore. And this Lady Bird reclaims it. Let's talk about it very quickly. So there's four Albums amidst our adolescence.

The first album is under the table and dreaming, sure. Which is just a smash sensation, six million albums sold. That's the one that features, what would you say? And the first big single? And ants marching?

Sure. And satellite. Those are the big singles off of that album. Now, being a little older than you, this album hit like crack in middle school. Every single person I knew is like, it's very important that we have this album. I'm talking about across race, gender.

People fucking love Dave Man. Matthews. I don't even really know why. But this, this is one of the ones that made it to me. Like, even, even two years later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, what's the story in morning glory and under the table and dreaming? Like, I had and jagged little pill. And, but it was like, I, I, I am 10. And, and Cheryl Crowe was strong enough. Tuesdayna. Music Club? Oh, yeah, yeah, Tuesday. Yeah. Um, but I had those. I knew every song. I knew all the words. All great albums. Yeah. Um, two years later, crash comes out. Yeah. America and a chokehold.

You can't. It's like 10 million albums sold. You'll never understand if you weren't there. You know, Jack, you will never understand. They did a similar thing. They did a similar thing I think we're maybe too much and so much to say were the two first singles. Yeah. Which is kind of a weird choice because this album features the song Crash, which is critical to this film and the delineation between Lady Bird and Kyle.

And kind of, you know, what kind of music do you think Kyle was into? Do we know? They don't give him any... What's in his room? I can't remember the posters. Yeah. It's a good question. I'm sure someone will shout it out to us.

Anyway, these are just very important details that the film gets right. And I'd like to thank the film for getting those details right. I really spent a lot of time with live at Luther College. Do you remember that album? Oh, of course. Yeah. Huge stuff.

Was it Tim Reynolds? Was he the... Yes. He was the guitarist who had tour with him. And yeah, I saw Tim Reynolds solo at the Pines in Ithaca. In 2000, 2000, yeah. Yeah. It was cool performance.

Okay, this movie's legacy. So five Academy Award nominations, zero wins. Let's go through these categories. Lost original screenplay to Get Out. That was a very cool win. You know, it's got a good case, I think, because it's so well written and so specific. Supporting actress, Lori McKev lost Allison Janie, who was in I, Tanya. Okay.

I like Allison Janie, but, you know. Not the best win I've ever seen. A very well-run campaign by Alison Jenny and Neon. That's kind of the movie that put Neon on the map in many ways. Best Actress, Francis McDormand won her second of three Best Actress wins for Three Billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri, which is going to be number four on this list. I'm excited to talk with you about it. Best Director. That's what we hosted for a live event.

Honestly, as you know, I like Three Billboards. I'm a Three Billboards Defender. I have strong reasons for liking it. I like the Francis McDormon performance. Okay. Director Guillermo del Toro won for Shape of Water. Yeah. I mean, what are you going to do?

And then Best Picture, Shape of Water wins. Yes. This was an amazing movie year where all our faves were nominated and almost Get Out was the only, for screenplay was the only fun win. Yeah. Dunkirk didn't really take anything significant home. No. Who won actor?

It's a very good question. 2018, best actor. Is that Gary Oldman for The Darkest Hour? Yeah. Okay. With Churchill of it all. You know, it's the knockdown effect of how to Gary Oldman not have an Academy Award before this when he's widely considered one of the greatest actors. Anyway, the Bafters, three nomads, no director nomination.

Yeah. Apparently is controversial at the time. Golden Globes, four nominations, two wins. Okay. Musical or comedy win. Actress, musical or comedy, win. for Sir Sharonan. Sir Shironan, five Oscar nominations, zero wins.

Is that correct in her career? I think so. She's 31 years old. At the time, A.O. Scott for the New York Times wrote, you might think you've seen this all before you probably have, but never quite like this. That's about right. Listen, everyone loved it. It was pretty rapturous.

I remember that I took my then 10-year-old cousin Max to a screening of Lady Bird at Thanksgiving because we take all the younger cousins after family Thanksgiving every year and I was like, no, no, no, no, everyone, I got it. How old is Max? Max is now just started college. He's a freshman. Okay, so he was a teenager at this time?

No, I think he was 10. I think he was 10. And bless him, he came with his mom, Rachel. They stayed through the whole thing. Sexine, huh? Sexine with Max? Well, I didn't sit next to him. Also, like, he's the youngest.

How would that have made it worse? He has older siblings, you know? You have to learn about the world. Okay. And then we walked out like a, 11 o'clock, and 10-year-old Max was like, I liked it. Max is the best. Okay, let's have a controversial conversation now.

So what movies is this standing in for? Yeah. Why don't you list the first four, and then let's talk about the next four. Okay. All right. The first four, boyhood, whiplash, call me by your name, also a 2017 film starring Timothy Shalameh, and Moonlight. I think those four films

represent something very specific that was happening generationally with movies with newer voices emerging those are all very good films obviously boyhood was you know link later had been making movies for decades

but that was a project about adolescence and change the next the first one and then the final two are the ones that I really want to get into so you have mean girls on this list as well which I think would have been an interesting choice I think we might have talked about it a little bit

when we did our comedy pick but just you know in terms of girls and social dynamics in high school. Yes, it is kind of the, this is played more straight, but it's a very similar kind of movie. And then the next three movies are what? Little Women, Francis Ha, and Marriage Story.

So if this was the Sean Fennessee 25 for 25 movie podcast list, I might have considered all three of these more strongly over Lady Bird. I might have. Who is saying that we didn't consider them strongly together. Well, we did do that, but I might have, I might have chosen Francis Haugh. Now, it's the tough one, right? If this were the Amanda Dobbins 25 for 25, I would have chosen both Lady Bird and Francis Ha.

Aha. Interesting. So there. You would have removed Marie Antoinette from your list. How? I'm just joking. So Francis Haa is a really tricky one because this is the, that's the movie that I think introduced most people to Greta Gretta Gerwig, who were not Mumblecore fans. Greenberg was before. That's true. That's true. Greenberg, legendary box office sensation. I still think about the scene when they're driving to get the abortion, and she asked if we can go to in and out afterwards, and Menzler says, this is your day.

But I'd like probably once a week, I think, to myself, in like not quite as complicated circumstances, this is my day. I mean, that scene is a good thing to point out, because I think very, very. few filmmakers have ever understood Greta Gerwig's appeal better than Noah Baumbach. Of course, they went on to get married and have a family together. But in Greenberg, I was like, I know that girl.

Yeah. I know that girl really well. Yeah, yeah. And I really knew the girl in Francis Ha. Of course. And I really knew that in New York. And I really love that filmmaking style. I think that is a beautiful, perfect five-star masterpiece movie. I think it's like one of the great movies of the century. So do I. I can't believe it's not on our list, but you wouldn't do it. We, well, we made this choice that it's like.

When we air the selection special, like, the record will show that I pushed pretty hard. And you are like, we can't have both Lady Bird and Frances Ha. Well, it just, I am not trying to take any authorial credit away from Noah Baumbach. But even though Frances Ha, even though Greta did not direct the movie, she is like an engineer of the movie. Yeah, of course. So it would have felt a little duplicative to me to have two of them on there. And that means subsequently there is no Noah Baumbach movie on here. Because Noah Baumbach did not work on Lady Bird as far as we know.

It is disrespectful to Noah Baumbach and to both of us. Like we have disrespected ourselves and our passions. I really agree with you. Well, how did you let it happen? I don't, well, it's just, it's a trick of the light, you know? It's just something that happens when you're list making. You want to talk about little women, though? Well, I think there's a case for it.

I know. It's wonderful. It's a great movie. I rewatched on the way home from New York for our live show and was just like weeping, you know, at 30,000 feet. It's an excellent adaptation. It's because it does locate what is enduring about the original text, but it like opens up all of the things that Gerwig is interested in. Yep. And gets amazing performances, not just.

of Sertia Ronan, but the, you know, the Amy character and it's examination of who has typically just been like a very annoying, unforgivable little sister into a whole other person is, I think, like, incredibly, like an amazing achievement of screenwriting and also like a great performance by Florence Pugh, maybe still the best she's ever been. I don't know. Midsomarba, yeah, sure. Well, yeah. And then what it does with, well, I mean, Emma Watson's in it, but what are you going to do? What's wrong with Emma Watson?

She's fine. She does okay with that character. And did you know that she got her license suspended because she speeds around Oxford too much? Did this just happen? Recently, yeah. That's not like these things. Yeah, I find kind of funny, actually. I'm surprised she's driving at all.

The Meg character is not as principal to character, just. in the text itself. So I don't know what you're supposed to do with that. But like the Meryl Street performance, the examination of that whole world, which can feel very like stayed in costume drama and something that you just that you read when you were seven. Yeah, it's just similarly a very warm and relatable adaptation of that story. And a movie that feels very propulsive. And very modern, even though it is set during the Civil War.

There is a, there is a, I think that would have been. maybe a too clever by half pick, but a very defensible pick. Lady Bird is a more iconic movie that she's made, in part because there have been so many adaptations of Little Women over the years. But I really liked Little Women a lot that year. I did too. It didn't get lost because it was a big hit and it got nominated

for awards, but it doesn't, it's not one of the first. Although she did not get nominated for director. But that was such a competitive year and it does get, it gets mentioned like fourth or fifth when you talk about 2019, not first or second. And that might be contributing to how to think about it. I mean, 2019 was also,

It's Parasite Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. What else am I forgetting? Knives Out, Ford versus Ferrari, Uncut Gems, Marriage Story. Right. There's a great number of movies that were nominated that year. Jojo Rabbit. Sure, yeah, your faves. So, yeah.

Next week, number four, Jojo Rabbit. Tyca not represented on this list. I think we made the right choice, but this was a pretty agonizing one. the one that we did for next week's episode. That was also a little bit of a challenge, and I feel we landed in the right place, but it was, to me, that's part of what's making this exercise interesting, as opposed to iterative of every other list that's come around, is that we are forcing ourselves to say, okay, which one is it that really rises to this level?

I do think Lady Bird does the work of representing all the other movies that we couldn't include from that group of directors. And I think that's why you do it over a little woman. Josh Safty would agree, but, you know, I hear what you're saying. They're doing okay. Yeah, they're doing great. Recommend it if you like. Yeah.

What do you got? Easy A and Booksmart. You know, plucky women taken on high school. One came before, one came after. Sure, and one stars Beanie Feldstein also. That's right. Pretty and Pink, which is the John Hughes with the class, or one of the John Hughes with the class stuff.

The 400 blows, which Greta cited a lot during the press tour for. this film. I think it very smartly said there are a lot of films about young boys at these times. Brooklyn, Sersha Ronan, trying to, going somewhere new and trying to figure out the world. Sounds like they met during the press tour when she had done the films with Noah that year. Or no, maybe she had done, was it Maggie's plan? Yes, I think it was 2015. Yeah, she had done Maggie's plan and Sersha had done Brooklyn. Brooklyn, beautiful movie. Yeah, and like also a movie told with a lot of like empathy and warmth for the places.

And then Rushmore. Yeah. Yeah. That's my ladybird. I know. Okay. Well, we've already recorded our number four episode. I feel good about it.

No one has spilled the beans. I'm proud of everybody. Can you believe? You're like you're really your stern energy at our live performance. I think really conveyed the seriousness of this issue. What I said to everyone is that if Beyonce can do it, we can do it.

Okay? And so, and no one had to sign an NDA, unlike Beyonce. So, but I, I believe, I believe in everyone else. I'm just really proud of those people. Yeah. And I'm really impressed with them. And I want to thank them. We also did get into the specifics of how they could backdate their letterbox

if they needed to. So I thought that, that was instructional. Yeah. I think it was aspirational because I said, be like me. Yeah. And they said, and that's what everybody's showing up to the Egyptian on a Saturday night is trying to do. Are you saying they're not doing that? Thank you to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode.

Number four will be next week. So this week, we do have one more episode. And that episode's going to be about The Running Man, and now you see me, now you don't. Now, you've seen both of these films? I have. I have as well. Okay.

I have a great many thoughts. So do I. Okay, well, we'll talk about it very soon. We'll see you then. Thank you.