The Big Picture - The "Ask Sean Anything" Mailbag. Plus: The Amazing Life of a Character Actor, with Patrick Fischler.

Episode Date: August 11, 2026

Sean is back from vacation, and to celebrate, we opened up the mailbag with an incredibly fun “ask Sean anything” prompt. Before diving in, he reacts to the massive commercial success of ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day,’ wish-casts some potential ‘X-Men’ roles following more casting updates, and shares his thoughts on the trailer for ‘Primetime,’ starring Robert Pattinson. Then, he answers all of your questions on how he prepares for filmmaker interviews, which actors are the most reliable chemistry alchemists, and whether he is “too horny.” Finally, Sean is joined by Patrick Fischler to break down what it’s really like to be a character actor in the industry. He tells the incredible story of how David Lynch taught him how to act in ‘Mulholland Drive,' and much more! (0:00) Intro (1:25) ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day’ box office (7:41) ‘X-Men’ casting updates wish-casting (12:24) ‘Primetime’ trailer reaction (14:05) ‘Paper Tiger’ teaser (15:18) Movies delayed to 2027 (16:58) The "ask Sean anything" mailbag (1:17:24) The Amazing Life of a Character Actor, with Patrick Fischler Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Patrick Fischler Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is the big picture, a conversation show about me. Later in this episode, I have a very special conversation with the actor Patrick Fisler. You may know him as the man who recounts his nightmare in David Lynch's Mulholland Drive, or the Dharma initiatives dastardly fill from Lost, or the embittered comedian Jimmy Barrett from Mad Men, or as one half of the smart couple who don't have kids in idiocracy, or the guy trapped in the elevator in speed, or, well, I could go on. Patrick is one of the most recognizable character actors in Hollywood, and he appears in not one, not two, but four projects this summer, including the films, teenage sex and death at camp miasma, and the social reckoning. So I thought it'd be fun to talk to him about his life as a working actor. This is the kind of conversation I've wanted to have on this show for a very long time. It's a practical, thoughtful discussion of the art, commerce, and experience of life as a working actor. Stick around for it. Patrick has wonderful stories and is a great guy. But first, some movie news now that I'm back.

Okay, so as I said, this is an episode about me. We're doing an Ask Me Anything Mailbag. Jack will read your questions. I will answer them sincerely with modesty and hopefully with some depth. But before we got to do that, we have to talk about Spider-Man brand new day. So I was very, very sure of myself that this movie was going to be very successful, but not absolutely beloved when we talked about it with Van and Amanda a couple of weeks ago. And now that I have returned from vacation, I am pleased to report. that I was wrong. This movie is an absolute sensation. One of the biggest sensations in recent movie history. It has already made in 12 days $1.67 billion. That is not a typo. I have not misstated anything. 1.67 billion dollars in 12 days. So obviously we're back. We've been back for a long time with movies. This has been a wonderful year in that respect. This is highly unusual, even for a film like this starring Spider-Man to do so well. And now it feels like potentially the sky is the limit. It's already earned $655 million in North America.

It's made a billion dollars overseas already. The big question here in America is can it catch Spider-Man No Way Home, which went to 814, seems like it will. Can it catch Avengers Endgame at 858? Seems like it will. Can it catch the Force Awakens at $958 million? Probably not. That would be crazy.

A movie has never crossed a billion dollars domestically. So we shall see. The big question now, though, beyond how much money can it make is why is this happening? There are obvious answers for why this is happening. Obviously, everybody loves Spider-Man. I love Spider-Man. Little kids love Spider-Man. There's a smart piece in the Wall Street Journal about how Spitey and his amazing friends

is the gateway portal for three- and four-year-olds like my daughter to get interested in and know Spitey. Spidey is very accessible for teenagers and pre-teens because he himself is a teenager in some of the storytelling, especially in the Tom Holland films. The movies are good. That's helpful. I have liked all four of the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies to some degree or another. I think most people feel that way.

There is something true that has happened here, which is that Tom Holland and Zendaya are cresting in terms of their stardom right now. And so both actors are going to be 30 years old this year. They're obviously married. They have spent the last 10 years, not just growing their fame, but doing so in intriguing ways Zendaya,

perhaps more than Tom Holland, who started in the drama earlier this year, who closed out her run on Euphoria earlier this year, who's going to be appearing in Dune Part 3. Tom Holland, of course, was in the summer's other huge movie, the Odyssey. And so you've got these two figures who are entrenched in real life and in this story. Their relationship is critical to brand new day. And that's something that obviously a lot of people who have grown up with these movies since 2017 have felt emotionally invested in. I probably overlooked that when talking about how well the movie could do.

but there's no doubt it's true. Zendaya was 19 years old when they filmed Spider-Man Homecoming, which is fascinating. One under-discussed point, I think, in this film's success is how it does feel a bit like a culmination. It's been five years,

so there is that scarcity point that you're hearing from a lot of people, but it's more so that this is not quite an Avengers' end-game level event, but it has been a decade-long period of storytelling for these specific films. Spidey has appeared in other MCU movies, but for the most part,

world is very self-contained with Zendaya, with Jacob Battalon, who plays Ned, with a lot of the villains who don't often cross over into other stories. So there's this sort of like, we have arrived moment with this film, which makes some of its connectivity to the MCU at large, sort of interesting to look at. And it means that Spider-Man, perhaps more so than any other IP, is in that upper tier, upper echelon of where things can go. It's basically Spider-Man Avengers, Batman and to a lesser extent, an avatar that have powered their way through the 2000s. Those are the films at the absolute ceiling.

You could make a case for Star Wars, though it has dramatically tailed off, and the Mandalorian and Grogu's underperformance brings the average way down on that movie. You know, it's only been five years since, or it's been five years since the Spider-Man Live Action, but we also, obviously, every three or four years, are getting a Spider-Verse film now, too,

so it stays in the culture, but we don't feel overdrawn on the story at times. the other thing is just that the stories travel really well. This movie's going to end up making 1.5 billion maybe more overseas and that's unbelievable. Now, I'm happy that everybody's going to the movies and I'm happy that if people can't get into Spider-Man brand new day,

maybe they'll throw themselves into the end of Oak Street or teenage sex and death of Camp Measm or Tony or any of the other great movies that are out in August this month. But this is still the old way. The maximize your overseas profits, It's your utilize your IP to maximum effect. This is not a change in any way. This is not like obsession.

You know, this is not like a film like The Odyssey or Oppenheimer. This is an old playbook. And it still works. It works more rarely. I do want to address the people in all of my mentions who seem to think that I always have hated the MCU and comic book movies. That just means you only started listening to the show 12 months ago. I understand.

That's okay. you should go back and listen to our episodes even about many post-COVID films that were released, particularly Thunderbolts and Doctor Strange and the multiverse of madness. Two movies I liked a whole heck of a lot. Before that, if you go back to pre-CO-t times, I'm very positive about many MCU movies.

I have certainly been burnt out. Spider-Man, of course, is different. We've said Spider-Man is different for a long time now. This proves that there is no exhaustion on this story. I'm kind of curious to see what this means for Avengers Endgame. Does it mean that the ceiling is, now higher on a movie like that, that it can be bigger than endgame or bigger than this movie. Or does it mean that it will be more indicative of, you know, more of an artifact of storytelling?

And I think there's obviously a lot of speculation that this movie with its multiversal storytelling and Dr. Doom's role will essentially dispense with many of the heroes who we've come to know over the last 15 years in the MCU and kickstart a new X-Men era. introduce a whole new level of hero. Obviously, the new Avengers are going to be a part of that. And what role and responsibility that those characters have to the future of comic book stories? We're going to find out. In the meantime, speaking of X-Men, some casting updates while I was out.

So we know Sadie Sink is there as Gene Gray. Sorry if that's a spoiler for brand new day, but I assume every single person who's listening to this right now, is seen that film by now. There was a report that Samara Weaving, who was a guest on this show, about a month and a half ago, was confirmed for Emma Frost, which is, who is a canonical villain in the X-Men storytelling, I'll just say elite casting. If you've seen some of our weaving's work, you know she is definitely a white queen-style figure. The leaks over the weekend indicated that Kit Connor,

who folks may know from Heart Stopper, who I really enjoyed in Alex Garland's warfare, is likely to be Cyclops. Seems fine. I think you need a nice, emotionally inert leader type to be Cyclops. I do think one of the most underrated parts of the Fox X-Men movies is James Marson's casting as Cyclops. I thought he was an excellent Cyclops.

I relate to Cyclops in some ways as a Steinmead leader here at the Ringer. Other figures who are tabbed for potentially appearing in X-Men right now, sounds like maybe Charles Melton will play Beast. Kaylee Spaney has been rumored to play Rogue. They were stars, of course, in Beef Season 2. Indian Averetti has at least been raising her hand to play Mystique. I don't know how seriously to take that. She's doing a lot of press, as she should in the aftermath of the success of obsession.

I saw a rumor about Jamie Lawson from Sinners playing Storm, and she's also rumored to be a part of Black Panther 3. I could see that making a lot of sense, Aurora Monroe, having a lot of connectivity between Black Panther and X-Men. Okay, so who do I want to see? Nobody asked me this question, but I'm just going to riff. I gave it some thought last night. Obviously, I'm getting older.

So the idea of me brainstorming about which 23-year-old actors should play comic book characters, is kind of pathetic. I realize that, okay? I get it. It's a little sad, but it is something I did. First person who popped into my head is Connor's story from heated rivalry.

Feels like a great angel to me. Warren Worthington, the third, who eventually becomes archangel. I preferred archangel to angel personally. I wasn't a super way back X-Men fan. I came in in the late 80s and early 90s. Uroborosov is Colossus. It's almost so obvious it should happen

for Minora, who's going to be appearing in Artificial later this year, the Luca Guadino film. He's Russian. Colossus is Russian. He is bald, and Colossus is not bald, but he's also metallic. So maybe they could put a hairpiece on him and digitize him. Lana Condor plays Jubilee in X-Men Apocalypse, and I know that they're going to kill all those Fox X-Men characters, but they should probably still bring her back for Jubilee. I thought that was inspired casting.

I think it was Lana Condor's first acting role. Lucas Bravo is a name that I have heard from Amanda on this show many times, and also from my wife, because he is the romantic lead in Emily and Paris. And I couldn't think of any Cajun actors, so I thought of French actors. And Lucas Bravo looks a lot like Gambit to me. So that's my pick there. This one, I think, is inspired.

Gabriel LeBelle from the Fablemans and Snackshack and Saturday Night as Bobby Drake, aka Iceman. What about Harry Melling as Nightcrawler? From Pillion, from the Harry Potter films? Okay, now I'm just... going to, I'm just going to try to manifest something. This isn't going to happen. I'm not even sure I wanted to happen, but what if Jesse Plemons said he would play Professor Charles Xavier? Would you, would you be interested in that? Is that something that you think could work?

Just picture him bald-headed, sitting in the chair, in the danger room, instructing these young mutants, how to do things. I feel like there's something to that. Plemons has not really shown much interest in IP in the last 10 years, but I don't know. Xavier has such gravitas. It's going to be really hard to replace Patrick Stewart. He was kind of the ideal Xavier in many ways, but we'll see.

I couldn't think of a single goddamn person for Wolverine. It's so difficult to cast an effective Wolverine. And I wonder if it's actually a better idea to go with a complete unknown for that part. Because obviously Hugh Jackman made him iconic and appeared in many, many, many

films as Wolverine. He seems to be unwilling to to give up the adamantium clause, but I couldn't think of a single person. The person I thought of for Magneto might be a little long in the tooth, but he has the gravitas we needed. It's Guy Pearce. Guy Pearce, nose to nose with Jesse Plements.

There's an age difference, obviously, but Guy Pearce is a youthful 58, in my opinion. Okay, those are my ideas. Are they good? Maybe not, but they're the best I could come up with last night. All right, prime time. I'm not referring to the hours between 7 and 11 p.m.

on network television when I was a kid. I'm referring to the new film from Lance Oppenheim. If you've been listening to this show for the last few years, you know the affection I have for Lance Oppenheim's work. He was a guest on the show

a few years ago talking about his documentary Renfair. He's made a number of documentaries over the years, including Sperm World, that I recommend people check out because his debut feature film, Primetime,

had his trailer release while I was on vacation. And it's good. It's good. You know, for one, notable reason, which is that we have Robert Pattinson right in that amazing sweet spot with an actor who has a tremendous amount of skill, is very famous and can make things happen, and clearly has good taste. So the film is obviously a portrait of Chris Hansen, the

Dateline and To Catch a Predator host. I spoke a bit about David Ossett's documentary that came out last your predators. This film seems like it's very much in communion with that documentary. And it looks like an angsty, chaotic nightmare of a movie. I saw a lot of people compare it to Nightcrawler, the Jake Jellon Hall film. I think there's a lot of accuracy to that. Haven't seen the movie yet. It comes out September 25th. Amanda will be seeing it at Venice. I'm hopeful that the film will show up at the Tell Your Ride Film Festival. And it's just very exciting to see someone like Patinson using his powers for good. This is really it.

Like, great actors who have great taste, who are willing to do parts like this, it made me think a bit of Cruz and Magnolia. This is the kind of thing we want to see from folks in this industry with this kind of leverage. So I'm very excited for that film. I'm also very excited for the world to see Paper Tiger, which released a teaser this morning.

This is James Gray's new movie, which Amanda and I talked about at Cannes. It stars Adam Driver and Miles Teller and Scarlet Johansson, and it's a James Gray movie. It's a crime thriller set in the 1970s about two brothers who find themselves in some real trouble. I won't say more than that. It is deeply connected to all of Gray's films. It is him very much in his comfort zone.

And it's just fantastic. So it comes out in November. I'm looking forward to talking about it on the show. And, you know, I'm almost certain James will be back. He's been one of the two or three best guests in the history of this show. And if you only did just start listening to the show, I would recommend you go back and listen to his episodes. because he is actually talking to him for the first time about the Lost City of Z. I think, and this will come up during our mailbag,

helped me realize what I could do in talking to filmmakers on the show because of how open and erudite and I think willing to go a little deeper that James was when we talked about that film, his life, his career, the way he's perceived as an artist and how he thinks of himself. So hopefully we'll have another good conversation come November. Okay, a couple quick things. A bunch of movies were reportedly pushed back, according to Variety today. A bunch of movies that we've been talking about a lot on the show over the last six or seven months.

That includes, here comes the flood. The Denzel Pattinson movie from Netflix. Sounds like that's a 2027 movie. The Riders, which is a Brad Pitt movie from May 24 that is getting pushed to 2027. Cry to Heaven, the Tom Ford film, which was surprisingly absent from the Venice Film Festival lineup, is also still without a distributor and likely going to 27. And then Jack of Spades, which I have in the auction, which was very high on my most anticipated movies of the year list,

which comes from Joel Cohen, his second solo directorial film starring Josh O'Connor. And that film is also without a distributor. Hopefully it'll be getting one soon and it'll crop up, but it sounds like it's a 2027 movie. Things are starting to come into focus. You know, LeBola Neger's been dated. We just had ink dated earlier today by Netflix.

Seems like all the can film. have their release dates. We're going to see Fjord. We're going to see Once Upon a Time in Harlem. We're going to see Minotaur. We're going to see a lot of the movies that you heard us talk about in May. And Amanda and I will have deep, long conversations

about them. I'm looking forward to it. I'm also very happy to be back. I had a nice vacation. I went to Long Island and New York City, where I'm from. I visited my hometown movie theater, my hometown rep house, indie house,

the cinema art center. I introduced a movie there and greeted some folks. You know, I give Long Island island a hard time, but it felt good to be home for a change. That might also be because my daughter is five, and so she can travel well now. So I'm looking forward to spending more time there in the future. Okay, I think we can mail back. Jack, what's up? What did I miss? All right. Our first question comes from Alex. These questions were very fun doing it. Ask Sean.

Anything. Emphasis on the anything was enjoyable. So this first question comes from Alex. What is your single best Nathan for you-esque idea to get more butts in seats in the cinema? Just give shit away. I just tell people that there's free hot dogs at every movie. You know, would people love free shit? Free shit is cheap. This is not even that Nathan for you-esque.

We could make the case that what we need to really do is build a massive spaceship that will take people away because that's what movies are, you know, and try to trick them into thinking that you're going on a journey. but I think movie theaters forget. Like, I'll give you an example. My wife brought home the Odyssey poster from the screening of the Odyssey on the first day of release.

And she showed it to my daughter. My daughter was like, what is that? And now she's all interested in the Odyssey. And my wife is like, should we put this Odyssey poster up in our house? We're not going to do that. I know as much of a movie freak as I am, that seems a little bit silly. But there's something about the giveaway.

Think about the way that baseball stadiums do this. You know, I know yesterday there was a My Chemical Romance situation at City Field in New York. And they gave away Gerard Way, Mr. Met, bobblehead dolls. This shit is not hard, you know? Just treat people like the lemmings that they are and gratify them. Stop starting to squeeze every single dollar out of the experience and just give us some free stuff. Okay. I mean, Jack, I don't know.

I think that's a perfect example. I also like how you called it the My Chemical Romance Situation. Not a concert situation. I'm not an MCR person. I'm just going to say that. You know who is? I have, well, Bobby Wagner is number one. Oh, I was going to say Christopher Ryan as well.

Yeah, Bobby and CR are a huge MCR. I'm not opposed to My Chemical Romance. I have nothing against them. I don't dislike them. Just never been in my back. That's all I'm going to say. The other thing is like, we don't actually have to try to get people back in a movie theater.

They know. Like people know now that one of the great things about going home was that every single person in my extended family who I spent time with over the week wanted to talk to me about what they thought about the Odyssey, which was great. They had all seen the Odyssey. You know, my 73-year-old father and his wife had seen The Odyssey. My 13-year-old niece had seen The Odyssey. Like everyone went to go see that movie. And I think if I went back two weeks later, I think most of them would have seen Spider-Man Bradenue Day, not my dad, but Most of the other people that I was with would have gone to see that movie as well. So that spirit of summer blockbuster that we kind of communed with for, I don't know, 40 years in this country, it does feel like it's back this summer. I don't know if it's a permanent condition, but it does feel like it's back. So I'm actually less worried about this whole trying to get people back in movie theaters thing than I have been ever since COVID. And, you know, the numbers bear that out pretty significantly. What's next?

Next question comes from Alexandra. You're great at asking questions. Can you talk about the research you do before interviewing guests? and how you decide what to ask. I love this question. Thanks, Alexandra. That is a nice question. And I do put a lot of time and thought into it,

so I appreciate you saying so. I do do a lot of research, and I'll tell you what the research is, but I don't think that the research is the reason why the conversations are fruitful. The research that I do is obvious. One, I tend to re-watch a lot of films. If you track me on Letterbox, you can follow,

and you can get a sense of when I'm getting ready for something. I obviously, if it's a filmmaker with a long and storied career, I tend to seek out the collections of interview books that they've done. I tend to go back through a lot of movie magazine history and look at the questions. You can imagine for the Steven Spielberg conversations I had in the spring, I went back and read a ton. I read a biography.

I read several interviews with him over the years. For a couple of reasons. One, I think asking questions is not only about asking questions, the questions that they want to be asked. It's also not about only asking questions that you're curious about. It's about finding a meeting point between where the guest wants to go and where you want to take a conversation. So you have to make them comfortable in the environment, I think, and show them in concise ways that you are not just conversant in their work, but that you're deeply engaged in their work. So the way that I try to do that is I try to figure out what are either

the thematic or structural or even just kind of linear. notes of their career that I have noticed. Sometimes it's coincidences, sometimes it's very purposeful choices that a filmmaker makes to show patterns to them. Sometimes they respond to them. Sometimes they don't. I learned this from listening to Elvis Mitchell, who hosts KCRW's The Treatment and was a film critic at The New York Times, among other places, and is wonderful at this work. And I love his show, and I think he's excellent in having conversations like the ones I've tried to have. And those patterns tend to show the person that you're sitting with that you really care about what it is that they do. And that can only come from reading a lot about them and watching their work closely.

But the other thing that I'll say is the most important thing I think to have with conversations with artists is follow-up questions. So when they say something, you're not rifling through your list of questions, making sure you get to every single beat that you've created for yourself. It's when you hear them say something that fascinates you, being willing to go to, down that tributary with them. That's the thing that I think is most important. And maybe you'll hear me do it with Patrick Fishlaw, because I prepared a lot to talk to Patrick on this episode, and he has such a vast career. He's got a, you know, almost 40-year career at this point as an actor. But I didn't get to everything I wanted to. For example, I didn't get to talk about Under the Silver Lake with him,

the David Robert Mitchell movie that I love. And he's used in that movie in a very similar way to the way that he's used in teenage sex and death of camp miasma. And as an actor, he's become this kind of indicative figure, like of a certain kind of a movie that a filmmaker is trying to make. And I could have talked to him about that movie, but we went down other paths and I never quite got to it, but it was okay because we got to things that I didn't know were going to be great. So just being reactive and intuitive and listen. I really think listening is obviously, it seems obvious, but it is the most important thing, especially in this era where you watch a lot of junket interviews on social media and you see

that there's like somebody's been sat down for five to ten minutes at a time and the journalist. and I have empathy for them because I've been in this situation in the earlier parts of my career where they just have to kind of plow through the three or four gimmicky questions that they know will get them hits on social media. I have made a sincere concerted effort on this show to make it more about slightly more long-form conversations, never less than 30 minutes. I try to have as many of them in person as I possibly can because they're just better, they're just different.

And also because I'm putting the time in and they're taking the time to come and sit with me. And so I want it to be worth it for everybody involved. So I appreciate the question very much. And it's a great timing on the question because there's a great guest on the show this month with really good conversations and like a wide variety of experiences. So and the other thing too is I sometimes will have a great conversation with a guest. And then that guest will become a part of the firmament of the show. So like Alex Ross Perry is somebody who just came in to talk about his movie Golden Exits and we hit it off.

And we just, we had a lot in common. We had similar taste in things. And he's become a huge part of the show and a genuine friend of mine. And I love that. I love that that can happen. You know, Ben David Grubinsky was here earlier this year. And he's going to come back later this month and talk with us about something that I'm excited to share. So, you know, it's one of those things where if you give people sincerity and time, they usually will repay you if you're in the right atmosphere.

Okay, what's the next question? Next question comes from Greg. With the current turning of public opinion against AI and data centers, I feel that Eddington was even more ahead of its time than previously recognized. What are some other movies that you feel were ahead of their time

and deserve a rewatch and more attention? Just got to say, it's really nice basically seeing the Babylon Hive happen again with Eddington Hive. You know, every day there's another person on X.com, the Everything app going, did we look past Eddington? It's true.

Yes, you fucking did, motherfucker. Yeah. well as per the Spider-Man brand new day note like I'm not always right but I knew I was going to be right about this one

the minute I saw the movie also Ariasor another person who have had on the show several times and have gotten a know a little bit and I'm

I feel a kinship with his storytelling so maybe I have to check myself on this sort of thing but Eddington just felt tremendously transparently clearly

right about how we are with each other to each other and about the world. And so I'm happy that people are coming around to it. It's also just very, very, very funny. And it's hard to be funny about the things that it's funny about, but it is. And so, yeah, I'm thrilled about that. I thought of a couple of movies that I think sort of saw the future or repression or were a little bit overlooked upon their release or maybe need a revival. The one that I think needs a revival and that is not really available in too many forms, like there's not a fancy Blu-ray release, for example, is Bob Roberts, which is a 1992

political satire comedy directed by Tim Robbins about a millionaire, Republican presidential candidate. And who could that possibly have something in common with? I don't know. The movie is really funny because

Bob Roberts, the character that Robbins himself plays, is sort of like a folk singer, but he's transforming folk ballads and and popular contemporary music into Republican sloganeering. And it's a very amusing movie,

but it's mostly a movie about the kind of messaging, branding, and packaging of political candidates and the way in which provocation is used strategically, the way in which the sort of like empty suit persona is leveraged very clearly by most politicians. And Tim Robbins, of course, is a huge lefty

and very politically active. And he's portraying somebody who's all the way on the other side of his politics in an effort to draw attention to it. The movie I think was a Miramax film, and I think it's basically been kind of buried in part because of maybe some of Robin's opinions. I'm not totally sure the origins there. But it's a movie that if you look at our contemporary political landscape, it sees the future. I think in a way that is very similar to Eddington, and it probably seemed like it was a little bit broad and over the top at the time that it was released, and now it seems maybe a little mild relative to the world that we live in. Another movie I thought about was Karin Kasama's Jennifer's body and there's two things happening in that movie that feel very contemporary to me.

One, it's a very kind of amusingly and intensely scary slash funny combo that recalls obsession. And it's not quite at that

kind of demonic chaos point that obsession gets to. It is a little bit more arch because it's a Diablo Cody script, but it does. does feel like it's moving in a similar direction to that movie. And then the other thing is, like, it's a very, it's a very comfortably queer story without the trappings of a lot of traditional queer storytelling.

And I think that if you look at something like teenage sex and death and the way that, like, it's kind of responding to the history of slasher films, and we'll talk about that more with Adam Neiman later this week. This movie is kind of a link in that chain. And it's not surprising that it's had, like, a big cult resurgence in the last 10 years and is being rightly recognized. and Amanda Seifred and Megan Foxer is so terrific in that movie. Adam Brody is so funny in that movie.

But that's one that feels like just tonally, it was way ahead of the curve and trying to replicate something that was happening in the 80s. It was hard to replicate at that time, but now it feels more comfortable. So I'll point people to that. I just rewatched Ghost in the Shell, the Japanese anime film from 1995. And I just feel like that movie sees everything. style-wise. And it's been noted over the years how most science fiction storytelling seems to be riffing on it these days in terms of the sleekness, the sort of robotech that you find in it,

that kind of cutting-edge surveillance style that it utilizes. And, you know, it's kind of in the aftermath of the cyberpunk moment, but it also feels like it's predicting things like the Matrix that are coming very shortly thereafter. If you haven't seen Ghost in the Shell, I couldn't recommend a movie more. This seems kind of obvious but psycho Which at the time There were not very many movies about mass killers And the serial killer psychosis

And attempting to psychoanalyze those figures in any way And about repression in that way And psychos, of course, one of the most historic movies ever made We've talked about it many times on this show over the years Might be fun to do like a proper psycho Actually, when I get questions about What would be the best old-school rewatchables that we could do. We've joked about movies like Casablanca in the past or The Wizard of Oz.

Psycho is kind of an obvious one. I actually think that would be a great episode if anyone from the rewatchables universe wanted to do it because it does feel still so modern in the way that it tells its story. And kind of pinned to that, I thought if they live a bit, the John Carpenter film from the 1980s about obeisance in society. And then the fifth one is Speed Racer. And people may have heard Daniel Goldhaver, the director of Faces of Death, stumping for it on the show earlier this year. The 4K was released this year. It went back into theaters. If you were lucky enough to see the movie again in theaters, you know what a sensation it was. At the time when SpeedRacer was released, I must admit, I did not get it. It's not that I disliked it. I don't think I truly

saw the vision, though, that everyone sees. And I have really been swayed over the last five or 10 years, as it has become more of a cult object. And I look at the incredible vision that the Wachowski's had for that movie. I didn't watch the Speed Racer cartoon as a kid, and so I thought maybe it was a little bit outside of my realm of interest, but it's such a propulsive, electric, colorful movie that it feels like it consumes everything around you. Like, you can't, in a time of distraction,

you can't be distracted watching a movie like Speed Racer because there's so much happening in the frame at any given time. So that movie, I think also, like I said, It was way ahead of my time. Like, it was way ahead of time for me because I just didn't, I didn't see the way. I think I was looking for something a little different from the Wachowski's after the Matrix trilogy and kind of got wrong-footed by it. And now I go back and look at it.

And maybe the same will happen for me for Cloud Atlas or for Jupiter ascending movies that, like, I never really have totally clicked in with. But there's a lot to admire about them, but there seems to be something silly and a bit strange about them at times. But that was sort of how I felt about Speed Racer. The Wachowskis are really due an episode on this show because their legacy is so incredible. And I just heard Lana on the business, the KCRW podcast with Kim Masters last week. And there's just an amazing wellspring of stuff going on there. So maybe we'll think about a Wachowski's episode in 2027.

Okay, Jack, what's coming next? This next question really gets to the AskShon Anything portion of the mailbag. It comes from Simon. How do I know when I find someone that I love and want to pursue as a partner? When did you know you were in love with your wife? How did you know you wanted to spend the rest of your life with her? Was it a realization one day or did it require a lot of work to get to where you guys are? Simon!

Wow, Simon. Earlier in this episode, I throw out the names of actors I think should appear as X-Men characters in a movie that's not even on the calendar yet. And this guy's asking me about how I fell in love with my wife. What an amazing show we've created. Well, I've been with my wife more or more. since 1999. So I'm not the most experienced when it comes to playing the field. And so it's an interesting question to ask me.

I think that, but I like the way that he framed it. Because it's not about falling in love. It's about being in love. Falling in love, I think, is relatively easy. Because you know when you connect with someone. You know when you have things in common with them. You know when you're on their emotional wavelength. You know when you have fun together?

It seems obvious, but having fun together, I think is the most important thing. Eileen and I, my wife, you know, we met when we were very young. I probably met when we were in sixth grade. But we were not even really friends for a number of years all the way up until 11th grade. And then in 11th grade, we had health class together. I don't know if they still teach health class. But they do, Jack. They did for me.

Okay. I just said a thing like, I don't know if they still teach, which just means I'm officially in my mid-40s. So health class, Eileen sat in the front row and I was seated behind her. And I would say neither of us were terribly interested in the class. And, but we talked. It was the first class in the morning, this first period.

And we both, let's say you get to school five minutes early. We talked nonstop for five minutes. We had connective tissue because we had a mutual friend, our friend Becky, who sat next to Eileen. I mean, the class and I sat behind both of them, and they would both turn around and talk to me. And then I would talk to Eileen, make jokes, attempt to charm her throughout class. And then we had AP American history immediately after that together. And same thing.

She sat in front of me. No, she sat beside me. And she famously cheated off me on a test. I'm just going to throw that out there. I'm sorry, Eileen, you're going under the bus. Not a cheater. Aline was an excellent student. And yet for some reason, she cheated.

and the question was about the Enola Gay, which I believe was the plane that... I can't remember what the bomb the Enola Gay dropped, but it was a significant plane in military history. I did very well on the American History AP, by the way. And Eileen looked at my paper and tried to copy my answer on this quiz in class, and she wrote down Irwin Gray.

And that is not Enola Gay. She just couldn't read my chicken scratch handwriting. And that was the funniest thing in the world to me at the time. And I remember that story vividly to this day. And we weren't dating when all this was happening when we were getting to know each other in 11th grade. But I just remember laughing a lot with her and really appreciating that she got my sense of humor, which is sometimes welcome and sometimes not. And so we basically kind of danced around.

the idea of dating all the way up until the first day of our senior year of high school. And she's the one who stepped to me. It was just like, let's get on with this big romance, as James Kahn says, in Thief quite memorably. And we did. And we haven't looked back since. And I don't think we analyzed it a lot. We were two people who were pretty sure we were going to be together for a very long time. We clicked into place.

We had some similar experiences and some different experiences. I was a little bit more tentative about marriage, given my parents' divorce. I was not a person who wanted to have kids. I was very driven in my career and very focused on things I felt I wanted to accomplish. She was always, I feel like the work always came to her very easily, and she was not as career motivated, even though she's very successful. But we were very, like, in step and in tune, and we like to do the same things together and spend a lot of time together.

I'm sharing all of this with you on this podcast, because if you have to think a lot about it, if you have to spend a lot of time intellectualizing it, I don't think you're in love, probably. But if it feels like it is flowing and your life is sort of falling in together, then you are in love. The falling in love part is like, you're going to be physically attracted to a person, then you're going to start talking to them and you're going to get much more attracted to them if you like talking to them. And then you're off to the races, I think, but I haven't really done this in 27 years. So, Don't take me at my word.

Maybe somebody can ask Amanda when she comes back. She took a little bit more time to find her partner, so she might have a little bit more insight than I do. Okay, interesting question. Thank you, Simon. I'd love to know how old Simon is. Right back at me, Simon. The next question comes from Ryan.

I started a movie club with friends and family where we each pick a movie and meet every few weeks to discuss. We started picking movies from each decade starting with the 1940s, and we're currently in the 1980s. Can you lend me and the listeners some lesser-known criminally underrated 80s movies that we should check out for our movie club.

You know, I love a family movie club. That's just wonderful. Yeah, I can talk about some 80s movies. I'm not the biggest 80s fan, although I have caught up with a lot of blind spots over the last 10 years and have somewhat shifted my opinion on the 80s as a film decade.

I do think a lot of it is really related to when you were growing up and the 90s is really more my period. But just a couple of quick ones for you. Sleazy fun movie. Maybe don't watch this with the thing. of your parents, but I really like John Frankenheimer's 52 pickup starring Roy Scheider and Anne Margaret, which features an incredible John Glover performance that is just like a nasty piece

of trash that I love. If you're looking for some anxious, saffey-style energy, I recommend The Boost, which is a Harold Becker movie about a guy who moves with his wife from New York to California to try to level up in his career, stars James Woods in an electrifying performance. A movie that really surprised me and I'd never seen before. If you're looking for self-referential horror, try Fade to Black, a movie about a movie-obsessed teenager who becomes a killer and is inspired by the movies to execute his kills. If you're looking for some Armageddon fun when it feels like everything is burning around us, try Miracle Mile, one of the great Los Angeles movies starring Anthony Edwards.

Slick Thriller, I just watched the package late last year, the Gene Hackman movie, which I think will come up when we do our Gene Hackman Hall of Fame later this fall. I will be doing it with Tracy Letts. I've been doing a lot of ABLE Ferraro prep for an episode and one movie that I haven't seen in a really long time and I just revisited is China Girl, which is sort of his version of West Side Story, set a sort of a romance between an Italian-American kid and a Chinese girl, Chinese-American girl living in downtown New York that is just absolutely gorgeous and beautiful to look at and beautifully told. And then sci-fi comedy, I think a lot of people know this movie.

It just got a beautiful 4K from Arrow. But Interspace, Joe Dante's comedy about, I guess a man who has to go inside of another man, be shrunk down in the meantime, starring Martin Short and Dennis Quaid. That is great and is also a big, a very fun movie that my wife loves. So those are my 80s picks. You know, there's a lot more there. I'm just trying to give you some recent favorites. What's next, Jack?

Next question comes from Nick. Who are the most reliable chemistry alchemists in Hollywood history, i.e., which actor reliably produces it across many different partners, genres, and directors. Came to mind when reflecting on Gosling's career. Just Next Level with Rachel McAddens, Emma Stone, etc. You'd believe he'd married each of them.

Good question. Carrie Grant, number one, for me. There's an area performance where you feel like he's not in the relationship that he's in. And I think he's, you know, really well known for playing. He's kind of fast-talking, Pratt-Falling, debonair, screwball comedy figures. But an Alfred Hitchcock movie I love is suspicion where he plays a man who may or may not be plotting to kill his wife.

And he is dynamite in that movie and has, he has great chemistry with all of his opposite numbers. Jack Nicholson? Jack Nicholson could have. chemistry with a telephone pole. He is the most locked-in actor, I think, of all time. And I find him to be so fun opposite women that he obviously has a connection to. I just discovered, you know, ironweed for the Merrill Street Hall of Fame. I've never seen that movie before. And, and their chemistry is, is incredible in that film. But yeah, he is, I mean, The Witches of Eastwick, opposite all three of those women is amazing.

You know, we talked about Reds and the way that he connects with Diane Keaton in that one critical sequence as he's playing Eugene O'Neill. So he's somebody who's very obvious to me. I'm trying to think of a contemporary person. Can I give a shout? Please.

I just saw Tony yesterday and I would shout Antonio Banderas, not strictly from like a romantic perspective, but when I walked out of the movie and I was talking to my girlfriend, I was like, he is such a force multiplier. and that he brings the best out of all of his scene partners. I completely agree with that, Jack.

It's a great shout. He's one of the absolute highlights of Tony. We'll talk about him a bunch. I had Antonio on the show for Pain and Glory, the Almodova film, and he's been one of my favorite actors. He might have been one of the very first solo actor conversations I ever had on the podcast because I like him so much.

And I tell you what, I think he and I had chemistry. We were clicking that day. And he was very humble, very humble actor. But, like, Tony is a real, like, he doesn't have an Oscar, and he should have an Oscar, and we should just, like, start pushing that. He is the, like, absolute heart core of Tony. And I agree with you.

And he's, like, great opposite Salma Hayek and Desperado, but he's also great opposite Sylvester Stallone and Assassins. You know what I mean? He can really do it all. Okay, next question. Really fun one up here. This one comes from Kyle. I recently saw a.

a tweet going around claiming that you're, quote, too horny. Would you agree? Or are you the right amount of horny? For context, that tweet exactly says, I love Sean Fennessey, but sometimes he's too horny on the big picture. I think that's a misrepresentation. I'm not saying I'm not too horny. But on the big picture, I think me noting my appreciation for certain actresses, you know, I have my faves, right? Anne Hathaway, Jessica Chastain, there's others there. That is not too horny. It's like looking at a great work of art and saying, God, there's such depth and specialness here. We should acknowledge it every time we see it. If you go to the Lou, if you've been to the Louvre five times, you don't not look at the Mona Lisa. You look at the Mona Lisa.

It's there. It's a classical work of art that's meant to be appreciated over and over again, and it's right to say so. Is that too horny? No. That doesn't mean I'm not horny, but it doesn't mean I'm too horny. And the other thing I'll say is one, you know, elder millennial repressed Irish Catholic,

like I'm doing the best I can. There are times when I feel like, I shouldn't say anything. And then there are other times when I feel like I should only say what I'm really thinking. And this is the paradox of being a podcaster. You want to be honest. You want to be yourself.

But you're also performing, but you're also protecting yourself, but you also want to create avenues of no ability. I'm doing my best. If I cross the line sometimes, it's only out of appreciation and respect. I'm not trying to objectify anybody, and I won't.

Amanda, on the other hand, is too horny for the big picture. Next question. Getting us back on track with a question from Lucas, not our Lucas. There were lots of conversations around Nolan's strengths and weaknesses as a filmmaker after the release of the Odyssey. I saw some people saying that others

could have made a better movie if they were able to get a $250 million budget, which makes me wonder, who are the $250 million directors, the people that a studio would give that much money with no questions asked, and in addition, who are your $250 million folks?

The people that you would like to see given that much money through a studio might not take that same chance with them. I think the question is a faulty premise because there are no $250 million, no questions, asked directors. The idea that Christopher Nolan did not have to sell universal on his idea is wrong.

It doesn't mean that Universal is desperate to keep Christopher Nolan and they're stable. Of course they are. He is the most proven commodity in filmmaking right now. But nobody writes a $250 million check to an O'Toran says, have fun. That's just not how it works. Like there's a huge process that goes into these movies getting made. So I'm not sure I totally agree with that idea.

I do think that there's obviously a few people who have a tremendous amount of leads. way when they want to make a film. Obviously, Nolan is on that list. Denisville Nouve, I think, is climbing the ladder on that list. James Cameron has been at the top of the food chain for a very long time. But even then, like, I don't know if Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, a lot of the kind of masters that we venerate on the show,

none of those people really have $250 million blank checks. You know, does Greta Gerwick have a $250 million blank check? Not really. I mean, she's adapting IP for Netflix, so she's making a very big movie. But I don't really think that that exists. I don't think that there's a person. I don't think Ryan Coogler could get a $250 million original movie made right now unless the material was exciting enough for the people who are funding it.

So to me, there's a vast difference between my desire to see artists empowered and the way that we talk about people getting a chance to tell original stories or fresh stories and the fact that telling them at scale is really what matters. And part of what makes The Odyssey so special is those boats are out at sea. You know, like that movie looks like it was incredibly difficult to make, incredibly challenging, and it was so challenging in part because it was so expansive

and expansive often means expensive. But I don't really think there's anybody who gets to do that. You know, I would love it if somebody gave Steven Soderberg $250 million and he got to do whatever the hell he wanted. And he could be the most experimental version of himself, while also scaling every massive building in the world and traveling to the pyramids and to Machu Picchu and doing all kinds of crazy things.

But that's not realistic. Like this, it is a commercial art form. And this kind of relates to a question that we'll get later. But one of the reasons why I constantly talk about box office and industry trends and where things are going and what power people have on the show, one, obviously it's fun. And it creates some dynamic structures for the discussion.

but two, it is a commercial art form. It is not painting or poetry. It is meant to be, it is the creation of a work of art that is meant to go out into the marketplace and consumed. So you have to see it from that perspective to understand it. And as much as we want to say like, well, that guy should be able to do whatever he wants. Greta Gerey made Barbie, she should do whatever she wants.

Like, it's pretty much never going to work that way. And it's good to understand it. That's not going to be the case anytime soon. Okay, what's next? Next question comes from Mallory. I really like this one. I'm 17 years old, just starting my senior year of high school and trying to figure out what to do after I graduate. I love to watch and write about movies and I'm considering getting a journalism or film degree and going into entertainment journalism or academia. You have what would basically be my dream job, and I really admire the

way you discuss movies on the podcast and in your writing. I wanted to ask if you had any advice on how to get better at thinking, talking, and writing about film. This is also a great question because of the conversation you had with Patrick about giving advice to younger people. So this is a great one, Mallory. I find this very hard answer now. And years ago, I would do lots and lots of calls with college students who would reach out and ask about this.

And I always tried to make time for people because people made time for me when I was really young. In New York, I would reach out to people. I told the story about meeting Chris Ryan. But there were a lot of people who was writing I really liked and I would reach out to them. Some of them made time for me and chatted with me and gave me some insights into their journey.

and, you know, things are much harder than they were before. I think there's a big difference between, like, how do I make a career out of this, and how do I get better at thinking, talking, and writing about it? If you just want to think, talk, and write better, you just have to do those things all the time. You have to read a lot. I would just go out and buy the five Pauline Kale collections.

I would go out and buy the five key Ebert books. You know, just those, like, real starter kit kind of things. You know, I have vivid memory. of going on road trips with my parents, my two siblings in the back seat, and I'm sitting at the window on the right side behind my mom, and pouring over the Pauline Kale collections, you know, like 5,001 nights at the movies. And I would get them out of the library. And my parents thought I was an alien.

And it probably was like kind of an alien. We were going to like a beach vacation and I just wanted to be inside and reading about movies, which will be no surprise to you if you see me now, given how pale I am. But I think that was all like work towards getting to this place where I got super lucky to get the opportunity to do this. But all that reading and then making friends who were really into movies and spending all my time talking about movies with my friends and music and other forms of culture books that I really cared about. But I do still talk a lot about movies all the time and I'm constantly thinking about them. And so it's just like it's a life's practice. And if I didn't have this incredible job, I'd still be doing that.

And when I was doing a not-this job, as recently as nine years ago, I was doing that. I think one of the reasons why I'm doing the show right now is because Bill Simmons was sick of hearing me talk about movies all the time. So I would just encourage you to kind of throw yourself into it as much as you can in your free time. And some people, if you're really lucky, you get to make your hobby your career. And that is something that I don't even really felt I knew I could do and has slowly snapped into play. over time, but journalism degree is a tricky one, I'll say, as someone with a journalism degree. I had a good college experience. I learned a lot at my college. I learned most of it from doing it. I learned most of it from working for the school newspaper, writing for local newspapers,

working for Newsday in my summers off, getting internships at magazines. That was where I really learned to do the work. The classroom stuff, not as much. I wish I had spent more time in film class. I wish I had spent more time studying film theory and film technique because I had to do all that work as a catch-up when I got older. And I'm still doing it. I'm doing it to this day. I'm still trying to learn as much as I can without kind of burning out my passion and enthusiasm for it. So I would say think critically about what kind of degree you think you need to go forward. What's next? Next question comes from Jackson. Has it sunk in that you are considered one of the major founders of, quote, it's so over, we're so back.

how much it has become a ubiquitous saying in modern lexicon. I use some variation of it all the time, and it's also used constantly on the internet, see the Alamo draft house reopening, or acquiring the Cinerama Dome, excuse me. Beyond your daughter, would you consider impacting the English language your greatest career achievement? Beyond your daughter?

No, I would not consider that my greatest achievement. I also don't even really know how responsible I am for it. I've been asked this many times. I was interviewed by the New York Times about this a couple of years ago, where they said I was one of the proprietors of the phrase. I don't know. I definitely didn't invent it. And I do think it was very much a component of what it felt like in COVID as a hardcore movie fan,

someone talking about movies every day because it did feel dramatic. And I was, I was dramatic about how things were going. And that feels like a long time ago, given how things are now. But, you know, catchphrases are important. I have no shame about having a catchphrase. It's nice to have something that people can, relate to and remember you by. And if this is something that people relate to me and remember me by, I'm not opposed to it. I do think it would be really funny if there was a large banner

over my coffin that said it's so over at my funeral. Just throwing that out there for everybody if they're interested in that. What's next? Next question comes from Steve and Charlotte. Criterion calls you and says you can do a commentary for any movie you want with any guest you choose. What movie and which guest do you pick? Love this question. I just did another commentary with Tracy Letts and I had a great time and I really like doing those with him because he's so smart and so informed and we're similar in some ways, but he sees things from a different angle in ways that not just like educates me but really entertains me. And so I would do I would do commentaries with him until the day I die. And if you work at a Blu-ray 4K distribution space that,

is looking for commentaries with folks, give us a shout because we're interested in doing that and I think we've really enjoyed doing it together. But the easy answer for me with this is the third man with Orson Welles. I never met Orson Welles. He died well before I was in the movie game. But there's probably not a single person I like listening to talk more when I'm bored and I don't have a movie in my queue. I will sometimes just go to YouTube and just Google Orson Well's interviews and talk show appearances and just listen to him cook. for a while. And the third man's my favorite movie, and he's obviously one of the stars of that film. And it would be amazing to just sit with him for a couple hours and hear him talk about his

experience making that movie and the craft of acting and filmmaking. He didn't direct the movie, but you can see that he would see what is so special about the filmmaking in that story. So that's what I would really love to do. I'm such a fan of those early Peter Bogdanovich books, the who the devil made it and who the devil's in it and a couple of others. There's a now I think a full, I think there's a full, my lunches with Orson, Peter Bogdanovich book as well that is just his conversations with Wells over the years. And Bogdanovich is such an interesting cat, you know, obviously a great director, but he spent the first five, ten years of his career,

effectively transforming his movie psychosis fandom into a sort of hobbyist career as well, where he would write these index cards out. out and do these kind of like mini reviews of movies just for himself when he was a kid and a teenager. And then he transformed that into kind of a journalism career, which allowed him to meet a lot of the iconic film directors of the 30s and 40s, some of whom he'd befriended, and he would have these long conversations with them and these deep relationships with them. And he learned a lot from them and he applied some of those techniques to the films that he made. But he and Wells had a really fascinating relationship. And I just wish I could have been in the room for some of those

conversations, let alone watching a movie with them and talking about it while it was happening. So there's my answer to that question. Okay, what's next? Next question comes from Adam. Similar to CR's stocking guys like Logan Marshall Green and Luke Wilson, I was wondering who you have stock in and no one else seems to be buying. That's interesting that no one else seems to be buying thing. Because I don't know, I don't really think you could have that anymore.

Like in the era of Stan culture, everyone's got a shooter. Everyone's got someone who they claim. So it's a little tricky to be like, well, no one loves Patrick Fisler. So I had him on the podcast. Like, we put that picture of me and him up on Instagram today, and people were just like, hell yeah. That guy's amazing. So everyone knows who everyone is now. So it's a lot harder to achieve that.

Part of what's really funny with CR is that, you know, he loves Logan Marshall Green, but he also loves Tom Hardy. And Logan Marshall Green is constantly mistaken for Tom Hardy, and he's even talked about this in interviews now. And so what that means is really that CR has a type. There's a certain kind of a man. There's a masculine man, a Bernthal type, a Luke Wilson type, that Chris is a very fond of. So the question could have been, do you have a type? And I probably do, but I didn't give that too much thought. So I just thought of a couple of people who were like earlier in their careers who I think I'm sure have lots of fans and lots of supporters, but who I am very fond of.

The first one is Juliet Garepi, who is the star of Red Rooms, which we have talked about a bunch on this show, movie that came out a couple of years ago, Canadian film, about a woman who is obsessed with a serial killer who is standing trial. And Adam Neiman talked about it lovingly. Sear and I talked about it on a couple of our horror episodes as well. And she, also cropped up in Chandler LeVax, Mylan Kicks, earlier this year, which I think is on Netflix now, if you haven't seen that movie. And she plays the woman who lets her house to Barbie Ferreira's character when she's moved to work as a PR flack for a band. And she's completely different in Myelan Kicks, completely transforms. You wouldn't recognize her as the scary, obsessed girl from Red Rooms.

And so I have a lot of stock in her right now. I feel like she's a super special actress and I'm excited to see what she does next. The other person who popped into my head is Theodore Palarin, who, forgive me if I'm mispronouncing his name. He was the star of Lurker, the Alex Russell movie that came out last year,

and he gives an insidious and terrifying performance in that movie. And I feel like he's got a really bright future. And then two filmmakers who I really like. One is Archa Stevenson, who directed the first Omen, who was a great guest on this show during that, and she's now making a movie for 824

that I've heard some very exciting things about, and I think she will, she is about to be a thing. So buy your stock now. The other is Curtis David Harder, who made two movies for Shudder, one called influencer, the other called influencers, a follow-up film that I thought were very slick and really well made and really entertaining and deserved a little bit more attention than they got. And I could really see him making something pretty profound. So those are my early stock buys for actors and filmmakers. Okay, what's next? Oh, yeah. Made sure to include this one. one for you. Yeah, thank you so much for including this. Of course. This one comes from Nick. Could you see

Jay-Z releasing a Taylor Swift-s concert film with all the hype he has generated with the three nights at Yankee Stadium? Is there real domestic or worldwide box office potential for more hip-hop oriented concert films to succeed now or in the near future? And please give a quick top five HOV album ranking if possible. Incredible stuff. This has got to be a real one who has this question, Nick. I mean, Jay already had a theatrically released concert film. It's called Fade to Black. It's one of the best concert movies of all time. Unfortunately, it only made $800,000 at the box office.

But it was meant to be his final performance. That also acts as a dual making of the Black album where you see him behind the scenes working on songs with Timbalin and Farel and Kanye and all the producers who worked on that record. And it's a great movie. It's a really fun movie. I saw it in movie theaters.

Not many people did, but among Jay fans, it's a hugely relevant artifact. Could he do another one? I mean, I guess he could release the Yankee Stadium performances that he just did a couple weeks ago, and that would be cool,

and I was really jealous to not be there for those. I've seen Jay in concert many times, probably 10 or 12 times. So I don't feel like I need to go see him again. I saw him on tour with Mary J. Blige, so it was like an unbelievable performance at MSG. So I've seen him quite a bit.

Top 5 albums is hard. This really torpedoed my night, looking at this question. I got back from vacation. Let me just tell you a little story about my travel back from vacation for a second. I had a 12 p.m. flight on JetBlue, and we flew out of JFK,

which is the eighth circle of hell. And 12 p.m. flight took off at 11.45 p.m. We had an 11-hour and 45-minute delay. We were boarded. We were about to take off, and they told us the flight path closed. We were deborded. We sat in the terminal for about three hours. Then we scanned our passes again.

We went back into the airway, the sort of air bridge. We lined up, stood there for 30 minutes. Then they had us exit again. and we sat in the terminal for another three hours. And then they boarded us again. And we sat on the plane for two hours. And then we were told that the pilot was going to time out. This was after the previous round of pilots had already timed out.

We were told that the pilot was going to time out at 1145. The plane took off at 1143. I was traveling with my wife and a five-year-old. This was one of the worst days of my life. There's nothing more boring than travel struggle stories from people who have nice lives. I understand that. I wish I could have used that time

that I lost in this 12-hour period listening to Jay-Z albums to come up with a better list for you. Can I tell you something? Yes. This exact thing happened to my father. You guys must have flown on the same day except he made the critical mistake

of not getting off the plane. So when they said everybody can get off the plane, he stayed on the plane, but then they got delayed again for like another six hours. So he was stuck on the plane the entire time. We actually were going to stay on the plane, but they told us we had to get off after an additional hour. So anyway, that's 12 hours that are

never coming back in my life. I did nothing of use at that time other than just be like a coil of anxiety about what was going to happen because there were no flights the following day. Everything was all booked out. And there was only one or two flights on Monday. I wouldn't be here with you recording this episode and thinking about Jay Z, my beloved Jay Z, if not for that. Jay, let me just say The quick thing about Jay. I've met Jay Z many times, like maybe four or five times. I've been proximate to him a bunch of times.

Had interviewed him maybe twice. He's like one of the signature artists of my life, somebody who I poured so much time and energy into thinking about. None of that comes up on this show because of what the focus of this show is. It's so funny that Nick asked this question and that Jack even knows to include this question.

Making a top five is a disaster because of how much time I've spent with the records. There's a part of my list-making instincts that wants to be like, oh people don't understand how underrated Blueprint 2 is or American Gangster or you know I still ride for Watch the Throne despite Kanye being an

absolute nightmare public figure and doing deplorable things I still hear Watch the Throne and I get excited you know I have a lot of time for 444 even though I was kind of shifted out of that world by the time that record came around and I respect old guys making hip hop it's something that

has not happened very often and that's a very reflective album that I appreciate but the five for me right now now, one is clearly reasonable doubt, which is one of the most cinematic albums in the history of music, and is just the introduction to a storytelling icon and someone whose grace with verbosity truly inspired me. I really, I love listening to J-String Words together and also craft his persona in such a compelling way. And really, like, using the tools of gangster movie storytelling. of 40s gangster movies, of Scorsese films, of Coppola films.

Like, if you listen to the best songs on that album, then, you know, Ken I Live is one of my favorite J songs of all time. And that song sounds like it belongs in The Godfather, even though it was recorded 25 years after that movie came out. Number two, okay, here's my one zag. Just go with me on the zag. Number two is Volume 3, The Life and Times of Sean Carter. Now, does it have the best most insightful lyric writing?

No. Does it have the best pop hits? No, give or take, big pimping. But it sounds like the future. Like we had that question about movies that see the future. And the production on that album, the Dr. Dre beats, the Timlin beats, the beats are so crazy.

It still sounds like a, it sounds like a THX 1138 or something. It's such a incredible document of the way that hip-hop production was evolving and that Jay was always willing to kind of jump on where it was going and push it, a little bit further. And I was in high school when that album came out. And I remember mowing my mom's lawn being so fucking miserable. I had to mow the lawn twice a week for years and years. And,

you know, not unlike the Long Island weather I was experiencing this weekend. And volume three was my salvation. Being able to listen to volume three loud enough that I could hear it over the lawnmower, it transported me. Okay, so that's number two. Most people will probably say that's a crazy choice, but it matters to me. Number three is the blueprint. Truly one of the, you know, most significant personal documents,

I think, in rap storytelling. And also a movie that I think shifted the paradigm of hip-hop production, really, really personal record. Number four is the Black album,

which is such a fascinating farewell. And I would love to know what it, what, the world of rap would be like if he never came back, if he just stayed gone. He obviously was never going to stay gone. But it's such an interesting experiment by using a number of different producers. Not every song holds up for me on that album, but the experience of that album's release in real time was incredible. Number five is the Dynasty Rock Lafamilia, which is a fun album full

of bangers. That's all I got. You could easily slot in volume one or volume two into number five. I love volume one and volume two. I was listening to Friend or Phone 98 nonstop on the way to work today feeling like I was 16 again and loving it. My best experience with Jay was I went to a listening session, for those of you don't know what that is, once upon a time, journalists would be invited by a record label to come and sit and listen to a new album. Oftentimes, those events that I went to in the 2000s were full of like 100, 200 people and they'd ply you with free drinks and they'd play the album so loud you could barely hear it that the decibel level was so overwhelming that you couldn't tell if a song

was good or bad. Jay-Z had this great tradition of inviting a select few people to come and sit with him and he would play the songs one by one and talk about them. I did that with him like maybe three or four times and I did it once for the American Gangster soundtrack, which I thought was such an inspired idea. And I sat right next to him during that session. And he was making fun of me because I'm a dorky white guy. I was about to get on a plane ironically based on that JetBlue story. And I, um, I was a I had all my bags with me. And I was like the first person to arrive. And so I took the first, basically the front row seat.

And he, like, lovingly mocked me the whole time because I was, like, really viving out and feeling myself during that listening session. And afterwards, I got to hang out with him and talk to him for about 15 minutes because I was taking so many jabs from him throughout the session. And just a fascinating artist, like somebody who I really, to this day, just by thinking about this question and listening to the, those albums was really taken. Okay, let's do a couple more questions. Okay, great. This next

one comes from Schreeman. On a few occasions, you've said that you and Amanda are not critics. That being said, you continue to have, quote, serious critics on the show like Wesley Morris and Adam Neyman. In decades past, serious critics like Pauline and Kale played a significant role in shaping the film canon that we appreciate today. What role do you think academic criticism has to play in defining the current era of cinema for the future? do you think instead that Kale's progeny has been replaced by you and Amanda Griffin, David, C.R., etc.?

Gosh, this is such a... This is such a thorny one. I don't think anything has been replaced by anything. I don't think that critical canon is going anywhere. I just... I spent a lot of time over the break reading Jonathan Rosenbaum's substack, which is full of his writing over the years.

He had a great piece about his time with Sam Fuller, the filmmaker. So all that work is still present. There are tons of great working critics. I do think movie podcasts are very successful and popular right now, and so that maybe is throwing some of this in a state of disrepair. I say that the show is not criticism because it's not. It doesn't mean that we're not saying whether we like or don't like a movie,

but saying whether you like or don't like a movie, and even doing thematic analysis of a movie isn't necessarily film criticism. But the reason I keep saying it is because not just I have respect for the craft of it, having done it many times over the years, especially when it comes to music, but not just because it's a conversation, but because we're operating from a wholly subjective point of view in this space. And I don't really subscribe at this stage of my life

to this idea of a kind of objective analysis of a work of art. I'm very informed by my relationship to the filmmakers, not just in real life, but my relationship over the years. I fully acknowledge that. If it's a filmmaker that I love, I've just wrote about this recently with Spider-Man 3, like Sam Ramey. I'm really interested in what Sam Ramey's interested in. And so I'm more willing to be forgiving of certain flaws in a film

because I see other things that I admire so much. We talked about this a bit in the Spider-Man Brand New Day conversation about the subjective experience of art as it's been more democratized across lots and lots of platforms thanks to social media. It doesn't mean that criticism isn't still, there isn't still incredible work being done in that space because, of course, there is.

And maybe I do it from time to time, but I always feel a little uncomfortable with that word because I'm also talking about a lot of things in the show that are not necessarily historically the domain of criticism, not just interviewing people, but talking about the industry and history of the business and my relationship to the careers of figures and a lot of hierarchical stuff, which is all like kind of made-up sports jargony stuff that doesn't really have any meaningful relationships. to criticism. People are always saying, like, do I not call myself a critic so that I can be nice to movies and not break relationships on the show, which, like, I get why people think that's the case, but I don't really know what to say. Like, I don't ever have a guess on the show whose movie I don't like, or I'm at least not interested in. And I see all the movies beforehand. I never book a guess before seeing the movie. So it's not really about that either. It's more just that the act of criticism, I think, is a very, a very singular experience. David Sims is a great film critic. I'm not sure that he's practicing film criticism when going through, you know,

his favorite hamburgers on blank check, you know, like, they're just two totally different styles of media. And so I don't think that they're going anywhere. You can read David's work in the Atlantic. It's terrific. Yeah, you can read myself. And sometimes there will be some criticism. I've been thinking about final girls a lot. So I was reading Carol Clover's book again, Men, Women and Chainsaws, and its relationship to teenage sex and death

and a lot of the horror movies that we've seen this year. And so I'm thinking like a little bit more academically about the history of horror and female representation in the stories. And you could make the case that whatever I end up writing, if I write it, would be an act of criticism. But talking with Adam on the podcast about some of those ideas and talking through them, I don't just don't see it in this.

the same prism. But thank you for your question. What's next? Next question comes from James. Coming off the Knicks finally ending their long championship drought and the Mets recently celebrating the 40th year anniversary of their last World Series. I was wondering if you held any optimism for the future of the Jets and Mets to do

what the NICs have done. Which team do you think is more likely to do so first? And what is the path forward for these franchises? For the record, I wholeheartedly disagree with Sean's take. Boy, I'm excited about everything going on at Jets camp. You know, the obvious answer is the Mets. The Mets have young talent. They have two exciting outfielders.

They have three potential rotation pieces. They have Francisco Indora and Juan Soto and Boba Chet, almost certainly, on their team next year. They have Steve Cohen's spending power. They have a, I think a very shrewd behind-the-scenes team, especially in the developmental phase. this year's been a fiasco, the year before that was a fiasco. I'm happy with the five out of six run that they're on right now, and I do think that Nolan McLean's going to be a really, really, really good pitcher for a long time, and that Carson Benj is a star.

I agree with all those things. Something is not clicking, though, and the Mets find ways to lose in dispiriting ways. I guess all the things I'm saying are also true of the Jets, and the Jets are even more foolhardy and redempty. ridiculous as a franchise. But I don't know. I just have a weird feeling like it's been too long for the Jets,

for them to not do anything. We just had 2024 with the Mets. And now I'm just doing like Cosmos stuff. We're like the Cosmos were so against the Nix for so long that like the damn had to burst at some point. And I have a very similar vibe with the Jets. I love the offensive skill players in those position groups. I don't love Aaron and Glenn as their head coach.

And I don't think he'll be their head coach. I don't think he'll be drafting their quarterback of the future next year. I could be wrong about that. I do think the team will be much improved this year, though. I think they'll win six or seven games, and they'll be a pain in the ass to play at times because they're just going to chuck the ball down in field every single game. And I really like Darren Mojee, their GM.

And I think he's made several smart moves. And so, yeah, I'm choosing the Jets. Prove me wrong. If the Mets win next year, fucking A. Who cares? Being wrong would be meaningless. I was totally wrong. I thought the Nick should have signed Katie and Kyrie, and their failure to sign.

them, I thought was the worst thing that had ever happened to the franchise. You know what? Why that mattered? Not at all. Katie and Kyria could not care less about them. Jalen Brunson is an icon. Great story. We stayed in a hotel for a couple nights in New York City and we had to walk to the Long Island Railroad to Penn Station. My family and I last weekend. And we walked from our hotel to Penn Station and we arrived right outside of Madison Square Garden. And one of the big LED screens flashed an image. and my daughter looked up at the image and she raised her hands and she said,

Brunson. It was Jalen Brunson on the screen and I've never felt better about being a New Yorker in my life. Obviously I'm not a New Yorker anymore but I will be forever. Okay, one last question, Jack, let's go. Comes from Leslie.

What movie are you most excited to show Alice that you haven't yet? We tried to watch Project Hail Mary yesterday and it didn't take. It was too human and too complicated, but it made me think this week we should do E.T. Project Tell Mary is the first movie that hasn't worked on Alice in a long time.

She's a very good watcher. But it reminded me of just how much you need E.T. to get Project Tell Mary. So that's my answer. I think that'll do it. We should save some of these and do some more in a future date. That sounds good. Okay.

Thank you for all your incredible questions. I hope I was open and honest in ways that were useful to you. I hope you find love. In the meantime, please enjoy my conversation now with Patrick Fisler. Okay, Patrick Fisler is here. You're here to tell me about the life of an actor. Your life of an actor. Okay.

I want to start like all the way at the beginning. The first thing that I read about you is that you were named after or an iconic eatery was named after you. An iconic eatery was named after me. Yes. So Patrick's roadside. Roadhouse. Roadhouse. Yes.

I was four. Four? when my dad opened it, and literally it just closed last year. So it was open for like 49 years. And this is on the one. It was on the PCH going up before Malibu, and my dad opened it when I was super little, and it kind of took off.

And in the late 70s, 80s, it was like incredibly iconic here. And I was around sort of the business starting at a really baby young age. Yeah, so tell me about Los Angeles in the 70s, 80s, 90s. What was it like growing up here? What was it like to live here? What was your relationship to the media entertainment complex like? I love L.A. I love L.A.

But L.A. in the 70s and 80s was pretty fucking great. It's really great. In what ways? It felt alive in a way. Santa Monica was not what Santa Monica is. It was not rich. It was a lot of old age homes. You know, on Ocean Avenue, it's all like fancy hotels and club.

None of that. It was my grandmother who was in her 80s lived on Avenue in an old age home in one of those tall buildings. So it just felt different, especially Santa Monica. The West Side was not a thing. So that felt different. And being down at the roadhouse, I just, I grew up in front of a TV. I was like a latchkey kid.

So my mom lived in South Africa. My dad had the roadhouse. And after school, I'd get home at age seven, which I can't believe because I have a daughter. I'd walk home alone from school. And I would eat a bowl of Lucky Charms and watch. TV all day. And so I grew up in front of a TV and went to movies every five seconds. And then actors started coming in the roadhouse. And that for me was like, wait, holy shit, these people are real. And at a very young age, like Goldie Hawn, I was a huge fan of foul play, Private Benjamin,

seems like old times. And so she'd come in the roadhouse, you know, 1979, 1982. And I was a little kid. And so it just, it was kind of mind-blowing. And then it just became normalized. And I worked there. That was my first job when I was, you know, 12, child labor loss. It's a family business. Yeah, it's fine. So it was kind of incredible.

It was kind of great. I mean, I just love the business and not the business side of the business. I just love movies and TV. I think they have been kind of everything to me. Did you learn that actors were real people by seeing them in your father's establishment? 100%. Do you remember the first person

you saw that kind of broke the illusion of movies and TV? I'm using Goldie Hawn as the example because she meant a lot to me. Like, she's a comedic genius. And I guess Falplay was really like late 70, 78. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was very little when I saw this person that,

and Falplay kind of covered a lot of stuff that was interesting to me, mystery, thriller, comedy. And I tried to tell my daughter a couple of years ago and she was like, hmm, mm-hmm. It's really fallen out of fashion that movie For a movie that was a really big hit When it came out It hasn't been canonized in quite the same way

As some of the others It didn't really hold up But at eight or nine Fuck yes I mean it was great So yes She's someone I really remember as like Wait what?

Oh that's you Oh yeah And then it just kind of snowballed Did that encourage you To want to be an actor? No no no I didn't I don't know what encouraged me to be an actor I kind of I went to NYU

And when I went to NYU, I didn't even know if I wanted to be an actor. Before I went to NYU, I worked at Paramount in the story department. No kidding. Yeah, for like six months. My dad, again. Like after your senior year of high school? Yeah. I took a sort of, I went to Northridge and went for a month to Northridge.

And I was like, nah, I don't want to be here. And my dad from the roadhouse knew Ned Tannen. Oh, sure. Of course, legendary executive. Yes. So he was like, does your son want a job at an internship? It won't pay. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I worked at the story department and then did a good job and worked then for Teddy Z, who was a vice president of production. And he would just put me in a screening room and be like, watch these old movies. Tell me if we should remake any of them. It's like, what is happening? And at that time, they were doing like cousins. You remember that movie? It's a remake of, oh, I think you guys just talked about this.

It's a remake of the French film. Cousin, Cousin, yes, yes. And Joel Schumacher did it. So that was Teddy's movie. Yeah, that's the movie that, gosh, who is the star of the film? It's William Peterson, right? Yes, exactly. And it's like the William Peterson, like sliding doors.

Yes, that's so funny. So that was Teddy's movie. So that's one of the ones I remember we did. But so I was at Paramount and I was like, oh, I'm going to be an exact. And then a bunch of my friends who were the year below me at, I went to Beverly Hills High School. They were like, we're going to go to NYU. I'm like, well, I want to go to NYU. And again, Roadhouse.

Everyone's going to be like, oh, NEPO guy, but I'm not. Steve Tisch came in the roadhouse. And so he, Tish School of the Arts. Of course. My dad was like, my son wants to go to NYU. He's like, well, he's got auditioned. So I went to New York. I auditioned and got in and went with my friends to New York to NYU.

And when I was there, I was really like, am I going to be an actor or an exec? And by the end of school, I'm like, I'm going to be an actor. That's so fascinating. Were all of your friends going to study acting? Yeah. Yeah. And was that because they were Hollywood kids and that was what you did? Well, one of my friends, who was a really good friend of mine, is Jameson Newlander. He was in the Lost Boys, the original Lost Boys. He was one of the Frog Brothers. And so he went and I thought, I just want to go. And they weren't Hollywood kids. They just all wanted to kind of be actors, which changed very quickly. When you go to college and everybody realizes freshman year, this many people stop. Sophomore, junior, it goes, the pool gets smaller and smaller. Why did it whittle down?

Because people realize, like, I don't want to be an actor. They think they do. I mean, it has continued. to whittle because then a bunch of my friends after school moved here, a whole group of us. And it's just hard. The business, you know, wears you down. Yeah, I have a lot of questions. Yeah, we can hit all of them. I'm very curious. It's a real thing.

And so, anyway, so I went to NYU, and by the end, I decided, oh, I want to be an actor. I want to go back to L.A. Now, I laugh because I do believe in my heart if I said I want to be a studio executive, I'd probably be a miserable guy, but I'd be running somewhere because I just, I knew I was on that. Those are sliding door. Those are my paths. Can we talk about that for a minute, like one minute? You having that exposure to that kind of world

at such a young age is really interesting to me. I feel like I'm talking at studio executives professionally all the time. And most of the men and women that I meet that do the job are really kind, thoughtful people who really like movies. Not all

of them. It's changed a lot in the last 15 years, but the ones who are aware of this show, I would say, usually are like, You really love movies. Let's talk about movies. But that job gets a terribly bad rap. Yeah. And the idea of you going in the direction of, like, pure artist and expression of yourself

working in these formats versus the person who's making the decision that hurts people and breaks their soul and maybe ruins the movie industry. Oh, my God. Is such a fascinating pivot in your life? Like, is there any part of you that wishes you went into the executive route? This is amazing because I've never talked about this besides with my group of friends. and no, there's no part of me of the wishes I've done that because I really love being an actor. I love it so much.

But I would have been one of the few studio execs who tries not to break everybody's heart, but it's impossible. The job sucks because you can't make everybody happy. Like, there's no way. I go to so many movies and I see all the movies that are greenlit and I'm so excited and then sometimes they're bad. There's ones that don't make it. It's just all impossible. So, no, I'm happy. My choice, my choice, luckily were.

Who were the actors that you looked up to, wanted to be like, thought about emulating, especially when you're going to Tish? God. I mean, I'm going to shout out the number one, because people never expect it. Glenn Close. She is, by the way, I'm just saying right now, if you ever do a Hall of Fame and you do not call me, we are never speaking again. That's good to know, and I love that. And as you know, I love to have somebody backstop us on a Hall of Fame. That she is.

And again, as a young kid, randomly, my dad took me to New York when I was like 10, and we saw Barnum the musical. And it was starring her. And she, I remember being like, who is this woman? She's incredible. And then seeing her in Garp was the beginning. I mean, she has a run of Oscar nomination, Oscar nomination, Oscar nomination that's mind-blowing. And again, the big chill personally means a lot to me because I was a kid, Latchkee, family sort of not around a lot. and my friends kind of became my family.

So I saw that movie at 13, and I was like, oh, friends are the answer for everything. And it has stayed that way. That my group of friends, I've known since college, my wife I met in college. So that movie really spoke to me and kind of shifted my life a little bit. And then she continues on a run that's just like, I mean, fatal attraction is, her performance is unbelievable. Yeah. films. Anyways, she was someone that I thought, wow, she can kind of do it all. So is that what it was? Was it her flexibility, versatility as a performer?

Versatility. She could do period. She could do contemporary. All of it. Yeah. Because forgetting, by the way, dangerous liaisons, which was another one that I thought, she just always blew me away. And obviously, De Niro, Pacino were all I watched, like, as a kid and thinking, I want to be them. But then something happened with her. And it continued for years because damages, which was a show I was obsessed with, and my, a good friend of mine, Glenn Kessler, created it. And I, I remember seeing her on that when movie stars weren't doing TV. And I just was like, she's, she can just do, she can sort of be a bad guy, but you still just love watching her and care about her. And it kept going. It's in everything she does. So maybe that was it. I don't know.

I just, her versatility was probably the, the biggest thing. It's, It's fascinating. She's still going. I just saw her in La Bola Negra at Cannes. And I'm like, she's great. You know, it's amazing that she's still doing great parts. Incredible. I mean, I think she's kind of going to go forever. Yeah. Like, she's someone who the business is lucky to have. That's a great role model, though, because you can tell that she chooses things that interest her. Yeah. You know, that she's not driven by market forces. Not at all. And that's really interesting for an actor like you. Did you study a particular methodology with a particular kind of teacher? Yeah, I went to at NYU at the time, and still now you pick a studio. So it was like Lee Strasbourg, Stelle Adler. I picked a place called Circle and the Square, which is a Broadway theater on like 50th. And their method spoke to me because, again, this is kind of how I work. It was like everything put into one, meaning there's no right method. There's whatever method you choose, which Adler was very specific.

Strasbourg was very specific. And I just knew I didn't want, I wanted to just kind of take a bunch of the meal and see which piece I like, what bite I like. So I went there, and that was, I had a teacher named Alan Langdon, who passed about two years ago, and he was, that was it. That's when I knew I was a good actor. He helped me realize, oh, I'm a really good

actor, because when I went, I didn't know, I was 18 years old, I had no idea. Were you intellectualizing the process in college? Like, did you like that idea? Or was it, because some actors are like that and some are very just feel-based, right? They're just emotional. Fully feel-based. fully, I hate over thinking anything in life. My wife would tell you right now, I make decisions very quickly.

I'm like, I think this is our, I go with my gut, and that's the same with acting. Obviously, if there's things to do or research to do, I'll do it. But I'm the guy who really likes to just go. As you were learning about acting and thinking about it as a career, was your relationship to movies changing at all? Like, there's a little bit of that thing when, like, you are a sports fan growing up and then you become a sports writer and you lose all your fandom because you've learned too. much. You never lost that. I'm one of the few. There's so many actors I talk to. They're like,

I don't like movies anymore. I don't watch TV anymore. I watch everything. I go to every fucking movie I can go to. I have made my daughter, who's 17 now, at a young age, be like, we are going to the theater. You are not watching this at home. We are going to a movie theater. I love movies. It's one of the reasons this podcast kind of just shifted my life recently because I'm like, oh, there's like-minded people out there. We're still around. I'm not alone. And by the way, the business, we're back a little bit.

So it's an exciting time to be here. But I just, yeah. So what'd you do? Did you immediately move back home? Immediately. I mean, like. That was always the plan to just come. The day after I graduated.

I knew, here's why. Because I had friends who stayed there. My wife, who I wasn't married to at the time, she stayed in New York for a couple of years. I knew I wanted to do film and TV. And this was at a time when film and TV was not in New York. It's so different now. It's so crazy that film and TV is not in LA.

It's everywhere else. But I knew I wanted to get right into that. I just, I wasn't, theater wasn't where I was going. I just, I wasn't as interested in it. And so I moved back here right away and then slowly a bunch of my friends from New York started moving here. Okay, you're 21. You've moved back. 22.

22. Yeah. Do you have to get an agent? How are you figuring out how to go on auditions? How do you actually do the job? Again, anyone who's listening to this podcast who's under 40, something will not realize that it was a time when we had to do plays. And so with my friends from NYU, we started a theater company called Neurotic Young Urbanites. Terrible name, but NYU.

And our first play was like a night of one acts. I mean, my God, I can't even, if I saw it now, I'd probably die. And from that play, one of the girls in the play had an agent. And they came and they were like, hey, do you want to audition for us? Come in to the fucking offices and do a monologue. So I went into, it was an agency called Buckwold, and this is 1993 at this point. And I went in and did a monologue. Do you remember what you did?

From the play called Private Wars. I did a monologue from the play I was doing. And they signed me. And I started audition. When you were signed, was your mentality like, it's happening? I will be De Niro. Like, genuinely, like, give me a...

There's going to be a meme of me saying it, so I'm not going to say it. But just examine your ego from that time. I'm very curious, like, what you thought. This is... Oh, my God, you asked such good questions. I didn't think I was going to be De Niro, but I did think, like, here we go. Mm-hmm. And the reality is this.

So we can get... We'll get to this at a later point possibly, but my look in the 90s was actually not a look that the business really wanted very much. Should you describe what that means? Like, not generic. Not handsome. If I was born in, if I was 22 in the 70s, my career would be totally. Leading men. Yeah.

Yeah. I can't believe that sometimes when I see these guys. I watch movies and I go back and I'm like, fucking A, this is the best time. And it started to shift in the 80s, but by the 90s, forget it. So I didn't audition as much as my other friends who were like, you know, more traditionally handsome or, you know, I didn't audition as much, but I did start working very quickly because it took directors who were like, I like his look. And my first job was someone who appreciates he's a European director and appreciates a different look. So I did kind of think,

like, here we go. And it didn't kind of go like I thought right at the beginning. Well, okay. Yeah. Tell me about your first job. Speed. Okay, so you booked speed. So I went in an audition for speed. This is what you, no television before this? This is the first job in film and television that you got was Yanda Bond's speed in 1994? Hold on, it's 93.

93? No, the film came back in four, but we shot it in three. Okay. I may have done like a guest spot on, I kind of don't know there was like a really bad show. I did do, again, Roadhouse. Oh, God, these stories suck. I did a Knott's Landing, which was the producers to come in the roadhouse. And I wanted to get my sag card.

And that is how I got my sag card, was Knott's Landing. I was like a guy at the business who was like, hey, where are you going? I mean, I don't know. If you found it, again, worst thing. And so I made that, this is how I got my sag card. But the first job I think I booked may have been speed. So I went in and auditioned and it was yawn. And I was auditioning for like the guy on the bus.

There was like a younger guy on the bus. And I didn't get it, but my agents were like, you got the guy on the elevator. I'm like, great. Amazing. I didn't care. I'm like, oh, my God. And that elevator shit shot for two weeks. And we shot downtown and we shot at Fox.

And they built the whole elevator shaft. And I'm 23. And I'm like, this is everything. This is the great, this business is amazing. Wait, so before I ask you about that, can you just tell me how you were cast out of it? Is Jan in the room when you're reading? Yeah.

And a casting director? Yeah. Well, anybody else? Any of the stars? No. No, no, no. I was Jan, casting director, producers. Okay.

Because I pre-read. I'd read for a casting director, and it was the guy on the bus, so I don't even remember. It was like, I had a couple of lines. I don't even remember. And then I got called back to read with Jan for that same part. And he was, I remember just sort of loving his

energy, and I could tell he liked me. Then, yeah, and then I got cast. Did you know when you were making the movie, this is going to be a massive sensation? No, we could talk about this for probably three hours. We won't. But you guys, that movie was, I mean, it was not, it was, Sandra Bullock had never done anything. Keanu Reeves was Bill and Ted. So, yes, we had Dennis Hopper.

I mean, you know, but the movie was not anything anyone talked about ever. Like that was not talked about So when it opened I love those movies When all of a sudden Everyone in town is like Wait a minute This fucking thing is great

And when we were shooting it I did feel something I did which I have the experiences Where I can feel something And I'm right Or feel something and I'm wrong And this one was like Oh I think this could be really good

What do you think What's your percentage you think Over your career In terms of guessing right Whether something's gonna work or not Because you've been in a million things at this point I'll go 60-40.

Okay. And I'm right. 60-right. Yeah. But most of the wrong was when I was younger. I'm pretty good now. So speed happens. Yeah.

Millions of people see that movie. It is a genuine sensation. Does it have a meaningful effect on your career? Like are you not at all? That's why this is a weird job. It's honestly, man, there's not, I mean, we can talk about it, but there's very few jobs that have been like the thing that have changed something. Speed, I mean, I had like two lines.

I'm at the beginning of the movie. So it was like, I just went back to auditioning for guest spots on TV shows, like small little things. It didn't, it didn't, if it did anything, it was introduced me to Jan, who then cast me again in Twister. That was the only thing it really did. It did something for me, though, because like, and emotionally it actually did something for me, sharing a personal moment of like, my dad died in 97. So taking him to the man's Chinese in 94 to see speed and be like, you know, all right. I'm doing it. Yeah, I did it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was really lovely. That was lovely. So what how do you make a career at this stage of your life? You're in your 20s, but jobs, they're not like jobs I've had where I am hired by a corporation and they pay me money to do a thing and I go in every day. Yeah. You're trying to piece together each.

component part of your life? Is your now wife, like still living in New York? Are you guys going to get back together? We were just friends until she moved here and then we started dating about two years after she moved here. We've been together for 30 years. So we started dating in 97. So at this point, she moved here in 95, but I had this whole group of friends. To be honest, I love this because I'll be frank and my daughter will watch this, but like we'd just get high and go to movies. I mean, that was what we were doing. It was 1994. And I was like, we'd either all have an audition and we'd work on auditions, we'd be like, oh my God, we have an audition. And then, you know, but financially, I stopped working, I worked at the roadhouse up until speed. And from that moment on, which is

kind of amazing, and I feel incredibly proud of it, I got health insurance every year, which is hard to get in SAG, especially when you're not working a lot, health insurance every year and never went back to waiting tables. So that's pretty, that's how it changed my life, you know, because I would do guest spots. I would get a guest spot on, you know, I'm fucking NYPD Blue. Like I did, I did that. Like, I do stuff like that, you know. Can you describe maybe the psychological feeling of constantly being evaluated when you're reading for good jobs like this? It'll break you. Yeah. It has not broken me. I actually, I had a very weird strength that I still have, which is the power of saying no and the power of passing and not trying to take stuff personally.

I feel like most actors are totally unempowered. And I try to talk to young actors to be like, don't let the business not treat you well because it's going to try to break you. Not intentionally, it's not like some evil thing, but it's really hard. It's really hard to not go into a room and not think that it's something to do with you personally.

And it's often not. Are you trying to be artistically strategic when you're trying to book jobs like that? Are you trying to say I'm looking for filmmakers or shows that I know I respond to or creators? Yeah. Do you want to give me money? I mean, like, I couldn't. There was no way, because I wasn't capable of doing that because I also just, I think the reason I have as big a career number-wise as I do is because I'm a real believer in like, I just love working. I love it.

And I enjoy making the money because there's been many years I haven't made as much. So residual checks are everything. They are everything. And that's another way I lived back then. I'll never forget that after Speed came out on DVD and I hadn't been working a little bit. And then, oh, actually, it wasn't Speed. Damn it, it was twister. But I got a residual check a year later that was so big.

I'd never seen a check like that. Because this was back when residuals were like insane. Yeah. And so I'm very grateful that residuals have fed my life for a long time. But I do pass if I don't feel like I'm being valued in the way I feel like I deserve to be valued. What did you learn on the set of speed about acting? Like I'm sure you learned a ton about how movies worked. I learned nothing about acting.

Nothing. No. We'll get to the day I learned about acting on film. We're ways away from it. Interesting. Yeah. Because I'm here. I'm at 23.

year old kid from New York who'd only really done theater and I thought I didn't realize what the camera was. That will come. But, you know, what I learned about more was starting to see like shots and there's two things. There's acting on camera and a big one that a lot of actors don't do is learning where the camera is. So you, the camera is doing scenes with you. Like if you and I are doing a scene, you're my scene partner, but the cameras are scene. partner too. And I think it's very important to be aware of it, which a lot of actors aren't, but I, I, I, why is it important? Because for certain shots, it's very important to know the size.

So I want to know if we're wide, my performance is going to be a little different than if we're here. Because I try to give the same performance, but you've got to save some of the stuff here, and it's also got to be just a little bit less when you're here. So much of what film actors do is with their face. So I've always wanted to ask an actor this and I never have. Do you look at yourself in the mirror and practice making a gesture or a move with your face that indicates something? I just rewatched a bunch of episodes of you doing Jimmy Barrett. That's such a physical performance that you're doing in Mad Men.

And it is a different kind of character than you have played many times over the years. and I was looking at the choices that you're making very specifically, but like is that something that you have to work on individually to know that you're getting what you want to accomplish and what the film needs? Mad Men is very specific. So that can be its own like conversation. What I didn't do though is practice in front of the mirror.

I don't, I can't really do that. That would make me crazy. That would, it would make me crazy to look at myself. It just would not. So maybe I've done it, maybe. What I, saying the lines out loud, but looking at myself, I don't know. I feel like I'd go crazy. No, I've never done that.

I've never done mirror acting. Okay. So, I'm going to try it now, though. I'm going to try it once. Don't, whatever you're doing is working. Don't change right now. In the 90s, were you thinking at a certain point this is going to evolve and I'm going to be a big star? God.

Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And was there a moment when you realized? like actually I have a different niche or I have a different skill and I should apply that? No, no. I just kept going. Also, you know, I mean, you were being in your 20s. You're just an idiot. And so I was kind of just an idiot. So I just was like, let's just go. Let's just go. Let's hang out. Let's go drinks. Let's go to the bar. Let's do that. Like that really was my life. And because I had a

group of friends, we were all together. We all lived in Santa Monica. We all went out all the time. I started dating my wife. It was just like a sort of super free time. And I really wasn't thinking, we were all talking about what jobs we were booking, and I was psyched for every guest spot I got. I was psyched for the jobs, but no, I wasn't, you know, and I was thinking like, where's this going, you know, but I don't know, I think just people in your 20s, you're just so dumb. Were you and your friends competitive with one another? Not really, no.

I don't think so. I don't, I mean, I don't think so. We were all super psyched for each other, and we were in a theater company together. So we were all happy to, you know, congratulate each other and be there for each other. And it was all exciting. So we were all kind of riding the same wave together. And the waves start to break differently as it goes. What was it like when one of your friends either in school or in this time in your 20s like

threw in the towel and was like, I'm not going to pursue this anymore. I'm going to go get a day job. It was, you know, it's always hard because I find the business is like rolling dice. I don't believe if you're great, you're going to. make it. It just doesn't work like that in any field of art. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot of it is random. So it was a little heartbreaking. It was, it was heartbreaking because I, I just feel like I've, I know many

talented people who should be working more than people I see that or work with that I'm like, wait what? I find it very random a lot of the times. What would it be like, I don't know if you want, I don't know if you'd feel comfortable, just citing a specific example of? Did you ever go up for something that you thought you were perfect for and didn't get that really hurt. Oh my God. Fuck. I must have.

Didn't I? I don't know. This is hard in this moment. I've certainly applied to jobs and I haven't gotten in. I mean, the answer to this. This is the worst question because I would answer it. I can't think of it right now. Okay. There is still on it while we go through your career. There is a hundred

percent jobs that I've gone out for that I've been like, I can't believe I didn't get that. Did you have any preference towards film or television when you were looking jobs? Because you've a lot of both. And you've done a lot of TV now at this point, too. It's just there's more TV made. I started to come into a time when like TV exploded. You know, in the 2000s till now, it's like, so there were more opportunities.

And I was a believer of you do it all. I, even though I grew up at a time where film and TV actors were so separate. So like when Clooney left DR, he went and did movies, you know. I just saw from Dust Till Dawn at the Academy Museum. And I was like, that was the moment. That was the moment when he was doing it when he decided to do that. That's so funny. I love that movie. It's a great movie. So, no, I was a big one for, like, because I also grew up in front of a TV, I love TV. And I think you can tell incredible stories on TV. And so I was happy to do any of it.

What was the job where you really figured out what film acting really was? Mahal and Drive. Okay. So let's talk about it. Yeah. I know that you got to ask this all the time. But it does feel like it may be at the top of your legacy in terms of what you've done. So, you know, you appear in this extraordinary sequence in the film, legendary sequence.

Lynch just passed last year. I'm sure people were asking you about it or talking to you about it nonstop. But I do want to hear from your perspective, how did you get that job? How did you prepare for that job? What was it like doing that sequence? What does it mean to you now? I want the whole kid caboodle. I could talk about this forever.

So I'll start with He doesn't audition actors So I don't know if you've ever heard this He didn't audition actors You would go and meet with the casting director And she would ask you questions about your life And so I went to audition for Mahal and Drive And it was an ABC TV pilot

Which I'm sure you know And so she would just say Hey where are you from? And I was like you know And we just had a conversation like this With the cameras filming And that's what David watches So it's why in his

movies, you could get like some amazing acting and then some like, is that person an actor? Do you know what I mean? Yes. And so, because he never auditioned. He never auditioned to people. But he's responding to an essence that a person has. Yes. Yes.

And so I did that. And then I was like, okay, never heard anything. We're not right away. And then all of a sudden my agents were like, you got that David Lynch pilot. And I was like, what? And then they sent, here's your scene. and I see this monologue and I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to die. How am I doing this?

And I kind of internally panicked because I will say this before I tell the story that David Lynch means more to me than anyone in this business. Because as a 14-year-old, he sort of changed what movies could be when I saw Blue Velvet. It was, I forgot what year was. So I was 16. As a 16-year-old changed, I didn't realize movies could be that. And then in college, I didn't realize TV could be what Twin Peaks was. So it changed movies for me. It changed TV for me.

And then he changed acting for me because doing Mahalo and Drive with him was a game changer. So was that the number one reason you went up for that? Was that like a thing where somebody was like, you should, you should audition for this because it's a new show. Like how does that actually work? No, I'm just, my agent's called and said there's an audition. David Lynch is doing a new show. And I mean, the answer was immediately. Oh, my God, yes.

Okay. because I was Twin Peaks was, I think people don't realize how ahead of the time Twin Peaks was. It really, there was nothing like that. That was not TV. In 1990, yeah, 91? Yeah. No, come on.

Nothing looked like. We were just coming off Dynasty and Dalit. Like, it was late 80s was just ending. It was, there was nothing like that. So I did it, went and just talked to the casting director, and got it. It was Joanna Ray, was the casting director. and then they called and sent me the pages and then I go to set. Wait, let me see you one question before you talk about that.

Please. Was the idea that that part that you were playing in that pilot would be an ongoing character in the series? It was. Okay. I don't think I've ever said this, but it was, and people have guessed. They're like, oh, a guy talking to his therapist or their businessman. We were, I was an agent. which makes total sense when you think about that show.

So I don't know where that would have gone, but that's what I was told. That's amazing because it actually just makes it way more legendary that A, we don't know and B, that it didn't continue in that way. No, I know. I don't know if that had been a pilot and kept going, this would not be talked about in the way. The whole thing would be different. So again, that's another sliding doors. There's Mahal and Drive, the ABC show that lasts for one season, or there's Mahalo and Drive, the film. So, yeah.

You show up on set, what happens? I show up on set and I do terrible, terrible impersonations. So when I start to sound like him, it doesn't sound like him. Okay. But you'll understand. I go and so we rehearse the scene at the table and I do the

monologue and I was doing what I thought was good acting. And David, who is one of the loveliest people who's ever lived, came and sat next to me and was just like, wow, that was, that was really good, Patrick, really good. And I'm like, thank you. And he said, so, you know, let me just, let me just talk to you. You know, you're just having, you just having a dream. You know, you just, you had a bad dream, right? You've had bad dreams. And I'm like,

yeah, yeah, yeah. And he goes, and it's just, he didn't want to say the word simple, but I could tell what he was telling me was just bring it, do a little bit less, do a little bit less, do a little bit less because I think what I was doing, if we could ever see that rehearsal footage, was pretty like, just didn't work for what he was doing and doesn't work for film and TV. And I instantly understood when he was like, you know, it's just, it's simple. It's just a bad dream. And I thought, okay. And I'm kind of internally panicking because I'm like, oh, I'm doing a bad job.

And then something just clicked in me and I just shifted everything I was doing. And I could just tell right after I did it and him coming over and just putting his arm around me. And I just knew like, oh, this is what acting in front of a camera is. It's just, it's just less. It's just less. And you've been doing it for eight years at this point? Yeah, but I've been doing, you know, nothing that had a guy like that. Yon is amazing, but Yon's watching the stunts and the like making everything be incredible.

and David was not doing that. This was still in the rehearsal, though. Yeah, but then we shot it, and he never gave me a note again that whole day. And we shot all of that in two days, I think, because then we did the inside, and then we did the walk outside, which he talked me through what he was going to do sound-wise. That's what I was going to ask you. Because so many of the choices that he's making in that scene,

I feel like would inform how you would perform, I'm like cutting out all of the background noise and the ambient sound, but then what he's going to do with score and then how even the camera is going to move. Like maybe you can help us understand what that's like when you're creating something, but it's all – it's just artifice all around you. I mean, now in my career for many, many years, I'm very clear on what's happening with the camera, with direct – like, I want to know everything because I understand that. I didn't fully get that then. But he was clear enough to say we're going to – he did tell me that like a lot of the sound was going to be taken out, but he didn't talk about score or anything. And at that point, I was so kind of in it that I just, I didn't even need to know anything. Because I knew the idea was this guy, as we all would be, if we had a bad dream somewhere,

to take your friend to that place. The dream is just what you're thinking about when you're walking down there. And so him taking out the sound and the score, and the like, that's what it internally felt like to me. So I didn't even need to know that much, but he did include me in some of it. And camera-wise, he didn't. But again, I'm not an actory actor, but I was kind of lost in all of that at the time in a great way. I felt very just lost in the whole thing because it was also, it's so lynchian to be lost. So does a moment like that spoil you as an actor where the next thing that you're working on that is more of a work-a-day type job?

You're like, I wish I could get back to that feeling. That's an entire career. That is my entire career. Yes. Yes, that is. That is, I would love to talk to any actor that wouldn't say you get spoiled and then the next one may spoil you again or it may not. And you just kind of got to go and do it. Can you just talk about that interregnum between the not becoming a series and then it ultimately becoming a film?

I'm curious how you felt like I gave a good performance in a David Lynch thing and I want this to come out. I was like, I can't wait until everyone sees this. This is going to change everything. And then we got word. ABC didn't pick it up. And I was like, okay, so back to the grind of auditioning for step by step or whatever, which I wasn't. Has that happened many times, though, where you were in things that eventually never... Yes. God, yes. It's, again, continual.

You just can't expect anything to be anything because when you don't expect it to be something, it's obsession. And when you're like, meaning you just don't know. But I was bummed. I was severely bummed. And then I got it like a letter in the mail. I'm not kidding. I got a letter in the mail from David. a typed letter saying, hey,

Studio Canal wants to put up some money to turn Mahal and drive into a movie. Would you, for scale, come back and do a little additional thing, which is what ends up being when she turns around and sees me standing at the cash register, that was added.

And I was like, oh, my, obviously, of course. So we went back to that same place. I just did that little shot where Naomi looks over and I'm standing there. I had no idea what's going on. and then next thing I know, it's a film. And the majority of the first hour and something is the pilot. Like he really just shot another movie.

Like he shot like 45 minutes, I guess, of additional footage to turn it into a film. This is an interesting contrast to the speed experience too, because even though the speed part is significantly smaller, you don't have a monologue, it's not this kind of iconic moment. It also had that both sequences happen early in the film. Yeah. And you could forget them, just like people tend to forget the first hour of many movies after this is kind of watching them. But your scene, I mean, I remember I was in the theater when that movie came out and we were all like, what the fuck just happened?

Like it really is such a truly memorable moment in a film that is full of memorable moments and really impacts people in a very deep way. Did anything change after that? Because I'll tell you from the outside what changed for me. Yeah, please. Well, I think that that's when you ascend to this, like, the that guy status, where it's like you are a person who at a minimum, you will forever be associated with that. And then when you see older things that you're like, oh my gosh, that guy. And I'm interested in that person because they can do something that is very special. So even if your name is not yet known, you become a character in the wider world of Hollywood storytelling. Here's what I'll say. That is all absolutely true. It didn't happen at the time. It has happened over a progression of time Because at the time that movie comes out

It's not it was like a People I mean obviously he got a best director nomination But it still didn't shift anything for me I kind of just kept on the same because the business was like Naomi Watts is the thing you take away from that movie Not the guy at the diner But the that guy status what started is that performance, as you just said,

kind of helped people notice me in other stuff. And then it has built, what's happened over the years is that movie has become so incredibly iconic that my, that movie being associated with me has helped me much more in the last 15, 20 years

than right when it came out, even though I guess that's 25 years ago it came out. Do you feel like that part is the thing that led to that, you know, Ghost World, old school, Black Dahlia, like you're, in this like chain of movies where they're made by real filmmakers and they're or their studio

movies and are you getting like called into audition? No, I don't think so. I mean, I got into audition for Ghost World, which my wife is in Ghost World as well. That was the first thing. She's the, girl, have you seen that movie a lot? Of course, yeah. At the yard sale, the one that's like, fuck you. Yes, that's great. That's my wife. So we have like three things we've crossed over together. That's a phenomenal movie. It's an iconic moment. So that movie was an audition I had and then, I mean, all of that was all me, just kind of that part again was nothing, but sort of the pen in the ear was all me just kind of doing it. At the time, I honestly, I don't even remember, but I don't know how much that was all Mulho and Drive, but it was like a slow

build. And old school, I actually, this is fun to tell stories I've never told, but like it was Piven and I for his part. And then I didn't get it. And then they were like, do you want to be this guy? And I'm like, sure, I'll be that guy. And so I did that. And then it just, just kind of kept going. It kept, it just kind of kept growing, but I don't know how much at that time had to do with Mahal and Drive, like Black Dahlia had nothing to do with Mahal and Drive. Because I auditioned for that and I'm, Carrie was the first movie I saw in a theater, which is unfortunate because I was six. Nothing unfortunate about that. I know, it's pretty great. And I, so the Palma was big for you. I mean, yeah. Yeah, the Dress to Kill blow out Carrie. That's it. So when I went in

and read for that, I was really nervous. And when I was leaving, after I read, I just read, and he was there. And he was like, okay, thanks. And then I left on, and before I left, I'm like, I said to tell you, you mean a lot to me. Like, as a director, you have met a lot to my life. How did he receive that? Fine. Okay, yeah.

He's not the warmest. No, no. He received it, DePama Esk. And I was like, okay. And then I got it and went to Bulgaria and shot that, which I will share and be totally Frank, that is a movie I think I'm not very good in. I think I'm fine. I think I may be miscast. I think I may not, I think I didn't, I still needed a director to help me. And no offense, I'm not sure that's what was going on. We were all in different movies. Like Scarlett and me and Josh

and Hillary, we were all like, I kind of just felt like in different movies. And that is so interesting because I'm really sort of, I like, I like to look at myself and be like honest about it. And I do remember kind of watching that and thinking, uh-oh, that's all right. It's not great. So interesting. You know, Amanda and I always talk about duplicity. And like if you did duplicity a hundred times, like, it would have come out better 99 times? Black Deli is kind of one of those movies to me too, where I'm like, it's all the right people. It's the right story. It's right material. I mean, it was Vilmo Sigman, Dante Ferretti. Because I remember doing it and thinking, there we go. Hold on. This is a perfect example of what you asked. I was like, oh, it's about

to change because 13 Oscar nominations. I was thinking of the Oscar nominations when I was there. And then I went to the premiere and the air was going out of a tire live while I was watching that movie and thinking, oh. And I felt it on set. And I don't blame Brian. I don't, I don't even, I don't know what it was. We were all in different movies. And movies can't work if everybody's in a different movie. You all need to be doing the same thing. No matter what, the TV show, the movie, you all need to be on the same page. And that felt like something that it just felt off. It felt like the, like you said, the parts didn't

click. And maybe there's a version where the parts do click. Yeah, it's such an interesting thing. Is there ever a moment when you realize that on set and you can change the dynamic or shift it? The director, I can't. I mean, I can only realize and I do realize it on set now, and I didn't then. Because I was, again, 33, 30, I was young. Yeah. That's why I think I was kind of too young for that role.

But, you know, I just, I'm so grateful for him because I loved doing it and I got to travel a lot of that part of the country and my wife came to visit me and everybody was lovely and you know there's nothing you can do about it because you're not in charge and so if people are I don't even think anyone was necessarily miscast it was just it just was a you know I like to cook and sometimes you the ingredients just they don't make a dish that it just tastes good you mentioned you have a daughter I do um Fia this movie was made before you had her Yes. And I'm wondering if your career and the jobs you took changed before you had a family.

If it changed once I had the family? No. No. Yes. Sorry. Yes, actually. I've been offered like serial killer, like, which I would totally play a serial killer if it was in something that was trying to do something. But I've been offered things that are not, or child molesters or things that I'm like,

I don't want any part of that unless the writing is incredible. And I feel like we're going to touch on something that hasn't been touched on. So I have said no to stuff that just feels like since my daughter that I would have taken at 30. I'm interested in that component too because many people think of a working actor as like somebody who's constantly trying to book jobs. But I love talking to Tracy Letts about this about the things he said no to where they're like, we want you because you're perfect for this. And you're like, well, this isn't something that I want to do. but also I want to pay the bills and take care of my family and so on and so forth. Maybe can you talk about the decision making, like the financial component, the artistic component,

how those two things fit together? Well, yes, as we said earlier, I'm good to say yes. I enjoy saying yes. But, and I enjoy making the money because it helps to pay the bills and send my daughter to college and all of that stuff. But it just, if it just feels wrong, it's not going to be fun for anybody, including myself or anybody there. So, and if, you know, I've been doing this a long time. So if you're not paying me what I feel like I should be paid, that's the other thing is I'm just, I'm okay to say no.

Because I know something, I've always been this guy that I know something else is around the corner and I know I'm going to be okay. And, and I feel like it's served me. I've yet to be like, and I've done stuff for money. I'm not past doing stuff for money. I have no problem with that because I do have to, it's my job. Yeah. But it's not hard to say no when something just feels like, nah, yeah. Does your antenna go up when something like Lost comes around where you're like,

I know that this is a sensation and I'll do anything to be a part of it? Fuck yes. Can you talk about joint? Because I want to hear about Lost and Mad Men and appearing on two shows just as they are like something is happening. I mean, just an incredible time. I was also at the same time on a show that didn't take off in the way I thought Southland. Amazing show.

Okay. I love that show. That was like what is happening in my life. I know. If that show was on AMC or HBO, it would have been different. It would have been, that show was really incredible. So Mad Men was first. So if we want to, do you want me to talk about that before last?

Yes, let's do Mad Men. So Mad Men, I was out of town in Florida doing a show called Burn Notice. That was a show as well. Jeffrey Don't, it was a show. Popular show. And I was doing that. And my manager, who has been my manager for years. I have two managers, and they're amazing.

She reached out to me and she said, hey, oh my God, I wish you were back. They're auditioning for this comedian. I'm Mad Men. You'd be great for it. And this is before again, self-tapes. We are in a different era now. This is, this is, the self-tape was not a thing. So I wasn't in L.A.

And I was like, well, I'm shooting. I obviously can't come back. I landed and got a phone call from her. And she's like, they're doing one more day of Mad Men. Can you get this, all these sides together tonight? And I'm like, oh, for fuck sake. And I look at the material, and it was the dinner scene when I go. Yeah.

From the benefactor. Yes. So something clicked where I knew who this guy was. I really knew who this guy was. My dad at the roadhouse would insult people when they came in. He was a very gregarious guy with white hair, and he stood in the front, and he insult people, and they'd laugh, and people would come to be in. insulted. It was really interesting. And I had this moment of like, oh, this is kind of like my dad. And I thought, I also just, I didn't even watch anything, but I was like, oh, I kind of feel like

I get this kind of insult comedian. And I wanted him to have some sort of charm because I didn't want it to, and he wasn't Don Rickles. It's not Don Rickles. Like he was kind of Don Rickles meets Joey Bishop in my mind. And so I went in. And I read, I met Matt, and there is a New York Times magazine that you, you article you can find about, there was a reporter in the room when I auditioned. And it's in the New York Times magazine. So I only know all of this from fucking reading the article. And you didn't know when you walked in that room at that time.

That was Matt casting, this woman, I thought she was a producer. And she wrote about, it's a little unfair to you. It's kind of awful. Yeah. Because she writes about they couldn't find this part. And they kept seeing people. You have to find this. Google my name, New York Times Magazine.

It was, you know, in the Times on Sundays. Yeah, sure. And it was a whole article on Matt. And it was. This is coming off of the first season, the success of the first season. And we're leading into Mad Men season, too. Yes. And so she talks about an in case.

I'm not giving myself a fucking compliment here. I'm quoting what it said. She goes, and in came gold. And she talks about Matt's shoulders going down. And, like, to read about what someone was in an audition experiencing with you, I've never had since. I'll probably never have again. Because that's not a thing. Reporters are not in rooms.

So... Great for your legend. Dude. Dude. So, but I knew when I was in the room and I knew Matt, I could tell his energy to me was like, oh, shit. I just got it. I got the guy. And so then I read, got the part.

Go to the table read. And the woman who was playing my wife, Melinda McGrath, is older than me. and Matt came up to me after the read, and he's like, we got to do something to make you look older. It's a problem. And I'm like, oh, I'm getting fired. I can't fucking believe I'm getting fired from Madman. And I, my hair is very white.

Most jobs diet, like the show I'm on right now, colors it. And I said to him, oh, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, it's really white under hair. And he goes, what? And I go, look, look, look. So I show him my roots. And he's like, okay, we got to grow up. Let me get hair. So they got the hair department.

And he's like, I want him to have all white on the sides. and that'll help age him. So don't dye your hair. We'll just dye the top, cut this short. All of this is happening as I'm thinking, and I wasn't fired, obviously. And then I go and do Madman. It's a wonderful thing because your performance is phenomenal.

It's also, you know, coming off of a moment where the show gets very hot all of a sudden after that first year. So a lot of people are interested in it. It's also, it's the media's favorite show, so they're constantly talking about it. But it's also your character is so pivotal to the rest of the future of the series

because of what he does and how he affects Betty and Don's marriage. So, like, you're one of the ten most important characters in the history of that show. I kind of knew it when we were doing it. You did? Oh, well, I knew what I was doing. I mean, I'm the first person, like, I'm telling Don off, calling him on a shit, and telling Betty about his affair. So I knew it at the time. I'm like, this is insane.

And when I did the first episode, you know, I hadn't seen scripts, I didn't know what was coming. But Matt did say to me, he was to help your performance, you're going to have a line. in six episodes from now. I've been standing behind guys like that my whole life. And I was like, I just got it. Did you know then that you were on a six-episode run, that it was going to be multiple episodes in a row? I think they had told me, I forget, but I think they told my reps.

Is that usually how it works? Yes. Like for Paradise? Are you like I'm signing up for X number of episodes? Yes, with Paradise I knew. Yes, they tell you. Shows that haven't mapped out usually tell you. Yeah, most of the shows I've done recently in the last years.

So Mad Men, I think they had told me how many I was doing. But he, I didn't know, I didn't know that I was telling January. I didn't know any of that. So he just wanted me to know here to help you. This is a line you're going to have. Does that help? And I'm like, that's it. That's the guy.

That is literally the guy. I've been standing behind guys like this. My whole life is the line. I mean, that's who this guy was. I still think that's the best show. It is my favorite. Just going back to look at what you were doing yesterday. I was like, I'm in my happiest place watching this show.

It is really remarkable. So that was spectacular and super fortunate. And I, again, that is, that show was the career shifter for me. Was it? Yeah. That was the game changer. That's interesting to hear. So does that lead directly to lost?

That leads to lost. That leads directly. And Carlton, my first recurring thing on TV was a show called Nash Bridges. Oh, of course. Oh, boy. Yes. Off Mike, we can talk about that. No, not Chuck Norris.

Oh, I'm sorry, Don Johnson. Don Johnson. Not Walker, Texas Ranger. Nash Bridges. Cheach Marin. My apologies. Boy. Oh boy.

Anyways. Fun production? Sure. So, again, I'm 24, 25, recurring on the show, playing a character now I'd be canceled for. Again, I mean, seriously, never. It is so... On network television. Oh, yeah.

So offensive. I honestly, I just can't even... But I mean, look, in fairness to me, I didn't know what the hell was going on. The world was different. It was, it's the... That was a whole ball of something. But Carlton, Cues wrote on that show. Damon Lindelof wrote on that show.

Sean Ryan wrote on that show. I mean, that show found some sort of something. All of those network shows were crucibles for all those creators who you ended up working with later in your career. And so that was lost. And so then I get a call that they want you to come do lost. And that was an example of they didn't tell me how many episodes. I just went and did that first one. And then I kept not being able to leave because they're like, wait, you're in the next one. Wait, you're in the next one. And my wife was pregnant. And so I will always give credit to, this to Damon the line producer everybody for helping me but I knew we were done they kept saying and I said am I in the finale and they said yes and I said my wife is due I I can't either you have to shoot me out way at the beginning or I can't do the end episodes and they changed the they put all of my stuff which people don't do on big productions they do not do especially I wasn't some huge part or anything but they critical though I guess sure you know and then they did it for me and I was

able to get back. I had to be back like three weeks in case, you know, my daughter came early, and I just was like, no job. There are just things you're just nothing in my life am I ever missing for any kind of job, no matter what the job. That's such fascinating timing, too, that your daughter would be born at this time when it feels like everything changed where you're like, I assume stability is a part of that. For the most part, with a window in there where I did think like, oh, I was wrong. It comes up later where I had a sort of dry period where I, where I had a sort of dry period where I, and it came at a time when my wife was on true blood. She was on true blood for five years.

So the timing was okay because we've always seesawed kind of. But I knew in my heart it was all going to be fine. But yes, my daughter, I think children bring great luck and great fortune and great everything. And she brought that for sure because it was all just happening. And Lost was one of those things. Then that year, Lost and Mad Men were the five nominated writing Emmy those two shows. So I went to the WGA Awards and presented because I was on both shows. So it was

pretty fucking cool to be like, oh wait, these five things nominated are all something that I got to say the words of. That is absolutely amazing. What's it like being in a marriage with somebody who is doing the same job as you? Amazing. I mean, it really- You talk about the work? Well, we've been together so long. We talk about the business more than the work, but we talk about the work. We talk about everything. I mean, she's my best friend and I mean, it's just my life. But yeah, I love it. People are always they, don't marry, and I'm like, that's complete bullshit.

If you're stable and you're cool and you guys love each other and your best friends, you can both be actors. It's all going to be okay. That's interesting. So what is the down period that comes up? This is after the shows? It was after Madman lost Southland. And there's like, if we look at my MDB page, there's like a period that's like,

what was I don't know Did you ever think about quitting? No, God, never. Literally. Never. Never. It was never an option. And I knew I wouldn't have to.

No, so when I say a down period, I still worked, but I'd maybe get a guest spot of one episode. Or like, it was sustaining me. But it wasn't, it's so hard to go from the best show on TV to, you know, I don't know, whatever I did. But it was a little bit of a. a period of time that just felt like I was not being seen, you know? Yeah.

And that was a little challenging. You were a little critical of your own performance in Black Dahlia. Is there anything that you've ever done that maybe is lesser seen or lesser known that you're like, I know I crushed this. I know that I was good in this.

Defending Jacob, an Apple... I haven't seen it. Is this the Chris Evans show? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I, that was a perfect example. I shot that and I thought

I mean here we go Chris Evans is doing TV this is a game changer and that was such a great story the showrunner of that told me when my audition came in he saw my face and was like oh he's not

right for this because it's a grieving dad who's I'm the dad of the kid who's been killed and he just was like I mean I love that actor but he's always playing the asshole or the villain or the this. And so he watched my tape and said to me, I was totally wrong. You floored me. And that was one of the best auditions I've ever given, ever. Because it's in a very emotional scene.

And that's emotion stuff is often hard. I can find it in my later life. It's post kid, super easy to find. And this is a thing about a kid who's passed, who was murdered. And so he totally, it was amazing. to have someone be honest with me. That is the business. They want to box us. And I'm just like, don't box me. I promise you. I can do a lot of stuff. And so defending Jacob was one of those things that when I was shooting it, I did think, and I'm good in it. And I thought, oh my God, I can't wait for the world to see it. And then COVID came out. And it came out in April 2020. So again, people were home. And the reviews weren't great. But it's fine. enough that I thought people would watch. And Chris is one of the love of those people I've

ever worked with. He is an absolute joy. So that, when you say you thought everything would change and you've had that thought a few times, was part of that thinking, like maybe I won't be typecast as the asshole or is the villain? Yes. That's exactly it. Which I'm really, I'm really not anymore. I will say the business doesn't, they, they're people that still want that. And they want to, they want to limit you because, you know, I think it's, easier for them. And I'm happy to play the asshole. Like, I love playing the asshole. It's great.

But I also want to play the this or the that. And I feel like I'm really getting to. I feel like I'm really, really getting to do that. What do you, why do you think that is? Because I think I'm older and I'm done enough work that a lot of

directors and show runners and writers trust me. And they just know that I'm capable of much more than people maybe thought it first. You know, I'm not just Jimmy Barrett. I can do Jimmy Barrett because I have an ability to do a lot of different things. Right, right.

You know, that's why. So I find you at an interesting time where you're in a bunch of things. Yeah. And I feel like you're being used differently in all of the things. Yeah, yeah. You know, at the top of the list for this show is teenage sex and death at Camp Measma, where I feel like you're being used almost as like a talisman, like almost as like a sign to the audience of like,

Like, do you know what movie you're watching? That is... You remember Patrick? This is what he represents to us. Like, is that how you felt about it? That's how Jane feels about it. I think I'm putting words in their mouth. But I...

Yes, I do think that as well. I think that is a Mulholland Drive talisman, to be honest. And I think... I remember when I got the offer for that, and I love TV glow. So I was pretty thrilled. And I'm a Friday the 13th... absolute fanatic. The first one is, again, I could talk about Friday 13th forever. I like when killers are not just monsters, but the fact, anyways, spoiler alert for Friday 13th.

You're wearing a Halloween t-shirt today, but you're repping for Friday the 13th. I am, I am, because I don't have a Camp Crystal Lake shirt, and if I did, I maybe would have worn it, but... I have one, that would have been great if I'd worn it today. Yeah. You should have. Yeah. But when I got the script, and then I spoke to Jane, and I mean, I thought the idea is so brilliant, and I thought, I love your work. I told Jane whatever you want, but I looked at it, and that part is like the guy at the gas station.

It was written, not me. And I said, hey, I have thoughts. If you want me to do this, maybe it's not like the normal, you know, like hick at the gas station guy. And Jane was like, what is it? Tell me. What do you think?

And I was like, what if I'm in like a sports coat? And it's more of like Norman Bates combined with something else. And Jane was like, let me go rewrite it. And then sent me pages, rewrote that stuff. And my answer was like, amazing. Yes, I'm in.

So the thing that interests me about that from your perspective is like, what does it mean to become a signal to movie culture, you know? That like you're just your mere presence communicates something to those. Obviously, it's a very meta-film. And it's a film for, it really rewards like horror obsession. Yes. But for you as a person that you've gotten to a place in your career where someone is casting you in a part because of what you tell us about what kind of movie you're watching. Yeah.

I mean, it's everything. Pretty cool. No one has said that to me, and I haven't been able to put that in those exact words, but that is everything. That's all I could ask for. Like, I don't need anything at this point, but that's pretty fucking cool. Yeah. And Jane, I remember writing them a note after shooting because Jane reminds me of David, Lynch. And there's something similar happening of not caring what anybody thinks and just putting a singular vision on screen.

And so, yes, I'm happy to be a talisman. I'm thrilled to be a talisman, please. So interesting. I do want to ask quickly about working on L.A. Noir, the video game. Yeah. Which is another, like, working actor thing. Like, that's a job. Only game I've ever done.

I don't say yes to games. I don't want to do games. Why did you want to do this? Because it was right after Mad Men and it felt like cool. I don't know. Something felt cool about it and different. Again, I didn't know people. I think I've seen my image on the game.

I don't, I don't play. You're not a gamer. I played Atari and. Okay. That's a little different. Yeah, but it's a different kind of acting, right? Presumably it's a mocap. Oh, it's all mocha.

Yeah. And it was the craziest part, was the room with all the cameras in the face. And, you know, the mocap was all, they had the, the whole sets laid out and the, um, all the, you know, whatever silverware and all you had to do, you had it all there. But then you had to go into the room with all the cameras around you and do the face stuff. Interesting. It was pretty remarkable.

And I'm so glad I did that because it was super cool. And I'm, wait, who do I play in it? Mickey Cohen. Right. And then I played, yes. And I played Meyer Lanski on the Frank Derbant show that didn't last, lost angels or whatever. That's right. Yes.

I did that. I remember that was one. There we go. I was in the finale. And I'm like, season two. This is Meyerlansky. And Darbant was so lovely. And I'm like, I can't wait for, wait.

It's canceled. Oh, okay. Oh, shit. All right. That's over. What a weird career you have. I have to ask you on Amanda's behalf. Something's got to give?

Tell Amanda. Well, she'll hear this. I had to audition for that. I want to really give the real answer here. I think I had to read for it four times. because Nancy is very specific. Four times. I think I have three lines.

Maybe four lines. Four times. And at the time, I remember being like, what, what's happening? When they'd call me back, the note was A or the note was B, very small. And I'm like, okay. And I was fine doing it because I knew who the movie starred. And then I will say this, shooting it, there's maybe no one lovelier in the world. than Diane Keaton.

That was, she was just the best. And I was a young guy and I was so starstruck and she was so lovely. And then Jack was just watching the Lakers. I mean, no joke. Literally they had to bring a TV

because we were in like a big theater downtown. I forgot which one and she's, he's just got the TV rolled in because it was at a time when, and you know, she's just talking to me and he's just watching the Lakers and I was like, Hollywood. That's really great.

Maybe setting aside Mohan Lund Drive, what's your favorite thing you've been a part of? Or maybe your best experience on a project. Oh, man. Oh, my God. Oh, there's a very undiscovered gem of a TV show that I don't know if you can find it anywhere called Happy. It stars Chris Maloney.

Okay. I just did it in, we did two seasons. It was sci-fi. Not like S-C-I. S-Y sci-fi. Right, right. And then went to Netflix, 2018, 2019.

Okay. It's based on a graphic novel by Grant Morrison about a hitman who starts seeing an imaginary blue flying donkey that's his daughter's imaginary friend

that was voiced by Patten Oswald and I'm Smovie who's the big villain of the show for two years. It is suspect at Brian Taylor. Yeah, sure. It's his show. I've never

I don't know it. Find it. It's so fucking weird. It's so over the top. We did two seasons of it. I was so proud of it. It's balls to the walls. It, I love Maloney. I loved working with him. Our chemistry was great. And I'm the big villain that carries through the two seasons that it was on the air. And it was an amazing experience. And nobody watched it. Happy. Happy. Happy. Okay. Exclamation point. Happy exclamation point. Before I let you go, let's nerd out about movies a little bit. Please go. So you're, you actually are watching new releases regularly. In the theater, of course. I mean, I have not seen the new release, but I'm going Sunday. Because we had the way I've taken my daughter again, making her go to the theater. But yes, I'm seeing, I mean, I just saw the invite, which is one of my favorite films of the year easily.

So I'm interested in your, like, ability to still be enthusiastic about it. When you're watching a movie, are you seeing the stitching and the choices that are made in a different way? and like are you explaining to your daughter well here's how they did this or I've been on a set that does this? She loves movies. She loves writing. She loves a lot. So I don't have to explain at this point she's in. No, I gotta tell you man, it's the best.

I watch things. I love things. Like I want to go in, I'm not going in judgmental, which is not common for actors and people in this business. I want to be swept away. I want to be emotional. I could cry at anything. So I'm so open. So when I

I don't really like something, which is rare, but has happened this summer. There's been some things I've seen that I've been like either disappointed by or they've been okay. Me as well. I'm open. I'm totally open. And I don't watch the, I don't even think about actors on set. You know, I think about watching the invite.

I think about how fucking good the writing is. And I think about choices they're making and how incredible they are. But I really, I go in really wanting and, open to this being great. I'm so excited to see stuff. What about TV? Do you watch a lot of TV? We watch way too much TV. I'm, I just, none of it's ever going to go away. We watch so much TV. Like we're, we have a couple, we're slow with TV, my wife and I, because we have like six shows going at once, which is kind of insane. Yeah. But like, you know, we're still trying to get through beef. We're getting through Widows Bay. We finished maximum pleasure guaranteed. It's exhausting. I am so

busy in my life right now that we laugh like we find time to just squeeze it in. But the same with TV. I am so open to wanting things to be good. I'm excited. How much of when you're watching things is just like kind of industrial concern for the health of Hollywood? Like do you think about that? Like I think about that for reasons that are mysterious to me. Like I'm like, why do I care about this so much? But I do. And it's a lens through which I see a lot of things. You know, once I'm done being swept away by something. And I've tried to figure out why I like it. Yeah. Then immediately it's like, well, what does it mean. How does it impact XYZ? And when I sit down to write about something, it's always through that lens. And I'm trying to figure out why that is, but I'm curious for somebody who actually

does the job who is actually reliant upon, you know, the health of the movie business or the health of television or streaming versus whatever else is the other alternative. Are you thinking with that cap on? I'm not, but we're fucked. No, I'm just kidding. It doesn't, it seems like it's really, really bad and also okay at the same time. It's the weirdest feeling. That is exactly what It's so scary and it's not going great. And then at the same time, I'm like, I think we're okay. So I don't understand the feelings I'm feeling. I'm confused by them.

But I feel it with TV. TV's weird. TV's not great. Here's why TV's not great. I'll tell you this. I just listened to a while back David Kelly on the town. Yes. And he described this, that when he used to make TV,

that it was like the execs were like customers at a restaurant who would just be at their table and say, I don't love this. And the chef would be, the showrunner, would be like, oh, let me get you something else. And they'd go and fix it or let me fix that for you. All good. Now, the execs who are the customers say,

I don't like this. I'm going to come in the kitchen with you and I'm going to tell you what to do and I'm going to cook the meal. And it's like, that doesn't work. Execs are the best shows are, I think, when execs give their notes, but also step back.

And there's a lot of just touching. that doesn't need to be happening. From your perspective, as not a creator or showrunner, do you think that that is just because it's a very data-oriented business that tells you the things that they believe people do and do not want? Yes. Yes. I think we are, not we, you and me personally, but the business is relying on computers to tell them what, the joke in Barry, the algorithm joke, it's not a joke. It's totally real.

It's just really scary. that they're like, there's no audience for this. And it's a computer telling them based on data. But yet stuff comes out if, I can't believe baby reindeer was adolescence that a network that relies, a streaming service, I guess they'll never hire me again, relies on an algorithm, let those shows that then became huge. And they're not realizing, oh, maybe we don't need to. Can you imagine adolescents being put through an algorithm? of what? An algorithm would say no one wants to watch something like that. So yeah, it's a little bit weird. It's very weird right now. It's very weird. I'm glad I'm not 20. No offense to 20-year-olds, or 24. I'm glad as an actor, I'm not starting out right now because it's a little scary. Do you encourage people to do it? What do people ask you? Like, can you make a living? Is it something I should pursue? I tell them if there's anything else you want to do, do it. Do the other thing.

Really? That's what I tell young people want to be journalists. That's so funny that you say that. But why are we, so... Wise? No, but it worked out. Like, we're okay. Because I didn't want to do anything else more than I wanted to do this. Like, I love what I do.

And that doesn't mean, but if I've gone and spoken at acting classes, universities, and I've said, you know, do you have anything else? Do you, you know, if someone's like, I love interior designing as well. I'm like, oh, then you should do that. If acting is the only thing you want to do,

if there's nothing else, you're like, I can't see any other light. God, go. Just go toward the acting light. But if there's anything, else, it's just, it's just hard. It's just hard. And you will, you got to fight and you got to stand up

for yourself, all the same stuff. You know, it's just, it's not easy. And the business is getting harder. Patrick, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? You mentioned the invite. Why did I say the invite? Yeah, you shouldn't have said that. You're going to have to go back to something before that, I think.

Obsession. Okay. So, you mentioned you're a horror fanatic. That's why. And it's a movie that I think took off, got huge, and then anything that gets huge that is a significant backlash to it as well. I saw it opening weekend. I saw it before,

and I took my wife hates horror, my daughter loves horror, I took my wife because I'd read the reviews, and I'm like, I think this is special. This is not what you think it is, and she fucking loved it. We all three loved it, loved it. I feel like it did across that rubicon

of non-horror likers, got interested in it? Because there's two scenes that are hard, maybe, but otherwise it's just, you know, and it's well directed, it's well written, it's well acted, it's great, it's great. But by the way, I should say that this, we're big on showing my daughter movies, and this weekend, we showed her Moneyball and Memento. Wow, what did she think of those? Loved.

Memento, she said maybe one of her favorite movies she's ever seen. She hasn't been Nolan, she hasn't been, and she's going to Odyssey this weekend with us. So I said to her, let me show you, let's start without the following, let's start at the beginning. And she just was absolutely blown away. It's a big leap from Memento to the Odyssey. Sorry, we missed the in between. I know, we'll get back to it. He'll get to it.

I just, it felt like the right time to show her that. And, you know, and Moneyball. We went through 25, 25. I was looking through and I'm like, which, by the way, I laughed. I'm on two of them. What's the second one? Something's got to give. Of course.

Of course. How can I ask you about both? Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe that's why you're sitting here. Oh my God. You're an icon of this show as well. I'm 10%.

You've been incredibly generous with your time and your candor. I appreciate you speaking honestly about your working career. Thank you. Dude, I thank you. guys for doing this show because it really does, it means a lot. Thanks, Patrick. Thank you. Thanks to Patrick for sharing his life. What a great chat.

Thanks to the listeners for your questions today. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on today's episode. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for his production support. Later this week, we are talking about Jane Schoenbrun's fascinating new feature, Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Measma with several very special guests. We'll see you then.