The Big Picture - ‘The Avengers’ | Marvel Month

Episode Date: April 5, 2019

We break down Joss Whedon's 'Marvel’s The Avengers’—a landmark in the cinematic universe that established the rapport between the tentpole superstars and set the tone for the films going forward. How has the MCU changed our relationship with movie stars, and does that make Marvel the most important force in Hollywood right now? Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Chris Ryan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up guys, it's Liz Kelley and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. April is a huge month for TV and starting this weekend, the Recapables feed returns to give you in-depth analysis on your favorite TV shows including Killing Eve, Billions and many more. There will also be a special Precapables series on the Recapables feed on the final season of Game of Thrones where our staff forecasts what will happen every Sunday on the show. So make sure to subscribe now before the premiere of Killing Eve and Game of Thrones on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer,

and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I am joined today by the Hawkeye to my Black Widow, by the Jack Kirby to my Stan Lee, by the Hulk to my Bruce Banner. It's Chris Ryan. Hello, Chris. I am not as in control of my emotions as I'd like to be. It's true. Well, we're going to explicate and explore your emotions about Marvel. We're talking about a very, very, very important movie to the MCU. And you chose this movie and I'm so fascinated by why you chose it. We gave you a lot of options. I thought for

sure you would have gone with Iron Man. Yeah. Knowing your warm feelings towards Robert Downey Jr. But you chose Marvel's The Avengers. Why did you want to do this movie? Well, you and Amanda talked a lot about, with the Captain America podcast, the first one of the series, you talked a lot about like what Marvel means to movie stars and how it's changed, what movie stardom kind of means in Hollywood. And I felt like Avengers generally the first two Avengers films, specifically this one though,

was an interesting lens to look through what Marvel's done to directing and what it means for directors to graduate to the big leagues. And Joss Whedon is this really interesting figure in the history of not only Marvel, but maybe Hollywood now. Pop culture for sure. Not only has he been responsible for some of the most beloved properties in the last 30 years with Buffy and with the Avengers and with Serenity and Firefly. But he's also kind of the sacrificial lamb of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in a lot of ways. And as we go further and further into phase whatever we're on now, I wonder whether or not he's going to be seen as a footnote,

as an interesting building block, as a foundational piece. I'm curious to see, especially from you, how we view his contribution. I think you can still see the DNA of the things that he is good at in the Marvel movies today that are super successful. But I also think that there are some very interesting missteps. There are some very interesting overreaches in this Avengers film and the second Avengers film that says a lot about what happens when you take a certain kind of filmmaker and you ask him to get into this sandbox, but you've got a couple people overseeing him being like, you can only build this kind of castle. And the castle has to connect to all these other castles. And it's just such a fascinating um narrative that's been repeated a

bunch of times over the last decade or and a half and sometimes successfully like in the case of like taika waititi and sometimes maybe not so successfully like in the case of anna boden and ryan fleck you know who made captain marvel i completely agree with what you're saying you have to walk before you can run i'm struck as i re-watch this movie by how much more coherently told I found Avengers Infinity War than this movie. And that is because it takes a while to figure out how to tell a movie like this. There's something more professional, more realized about Infinity War, kind of regardless of how you feel about it. I think it's just more well-made, but Joss Whedon, like you said, had to be sacrificed to figure out how to make an Avengers movie. And there's a lot about this movie that I think is very enjoyable and very fun, but it's

also kind of in conflict with who Joss Whedon is as a creative person. Because if you look at the things that he's responsible for, Buffy, as you mentioned, you know, he's the author, one of the co-authors of Toy Story. He's one of the co-authors of Alien Resurrection. He is, of course, one of the co-authors and he worked on The Cabin in the Woods. Joss Whedon is a deconstructionist. He's a person who looks at something that is time honored and he identifies what's cool about it. And then he makes it clear to you that he knows what's cool about it. And in some ways that works very effectively for comic books. In other ways, I think it holds the audience back in some ways. It makes it something a little bit less involving.

When I first asked you to do this and you said you wanted to do The Avengers, I thought, let's talk about like comedy in these movies. Because I thought Joss Whedon, he's got such an incredible writer of dialogue. He's so quippy. I thought this movie would be funnier. And going back, I realized it's like,

it's not as funny as I had thought. It's got some one-liners, but it's got way more St. Crispin's Day speeches. And that's actually something that he, in interviews after the Avengers talked a lot about how he wrote all these monologues for these characters. Like each one of these characters essentially got

a big Braveheart speech. And they weren't even used. But he did take parts of those speeches and keep them in the movie and deploy them in different places. And I think this movie is like eight scenes long. There's not a lot of actual action. There's like a couple of major set pieces, maybe like three or four. And then there's a lot

of gatherings of different characters in different rooms where they all are kind of laying out not only their anxieties about being superheroes in this Avengers project, but also, you know, they're figuring out their interpersonal relationships between other members of the team. Now, I think a couple of really crucial things changed over the years. One is the movies themselves just got, I feel like they got breezier. Even something like Civil War, which is essentially about a fight between two of the Avengers, feels a little bit more light than this. I agree. It's very telling that after this film, but especially after Ultron, like Whedon was just like a ball of nerves.

Like he just walked around being like, I fucked this up. This was really hard. This took away so much of my life. I don't know if I did this right. I, you know, it was, you can feel the stress of launching this hugely significant piece of intellectual property into the world on the part of the filmmaker in the making of it. They're everything from like a couple of like,

you're just trying a little too hard, man, like shots of like, especially in the beginning, there's a lot of shots where you're like, you didn't really need to do that insert or this weird low angle shot of Nick Fury getting off of a helicopter. You could have just shot it normal and kept it moving

and not distracted the audience with a cut. Every time you cut, you're going to grab your attention. And there's a lot of really like, I'm directing moments in this movie that I think even Whedon himself would probably go back and be like, maybe I was doing a little too much there. And I think you're right to identify that Joss Whedon was a little bit not ready for primetime when he took this on. Unlike the other filmmakers who worked on MCU movies, you had Jon Favreau twice, who by then had worked on some pretty significant films,

maybe not as big as Iron Man, but big films. And of course, you had Kenneth Branagh, who knows about staging and intense theatrical experiences. And it's kind of like a secretly old Hollywood hand. Totally. And Joe Johnston, who is also very similar, who he worked on the first Avenger. And he's, you know, trained under George Lucas and Steven Spielberg. And he really knows his way around a big set. And Joss Whedon had worked primarily in television.

And there are times when the action sequences in this film, some of which are incredible, some of which feel a little bit like a TV show. And you can, and of which are incredible, some of which feel a little bit like a TV show. And part of the problem, I think, is that Joss Whedon has been very honest about his experience on this movie. And particularly Ultron, which comes after this, which I think we're going to talk about on this series later. He's just noted that it was hard and that it kind of broke him. And he didn't have to tell us that, but that's the kind of creator that Joss Whedon is. He's very kind of open source with everything that he does. And because of his candor, I think that the movie

is sort of infected a little bit if you're interested in following movies like this. Before we go any further though, let me just give you kind of some raw details of Marvel's The Avenger. This movie was released on May 4th, 2012. It made $623 million in the United States. Chris, it made $1.5 billion worldwide. It is quite literally one of the biggest movies ever made. It's 143 minutes. This is the first Marvel movie that is a little too long. And it sets off this chain reaction of Marvel movies that are going to be quite long.

Now, every Marvel movie is at least 220 minutes. And you are talking about a 40-minute battle sequence to end it. Absolutely. This is the first Disney movie that Marvel has made. You know, Paramount was the distributor of these films up until this moment. Prior to the release of this film, they acquired the rights to Marvel. It has a Rotten Tomatoes score of 92% and it has a cinema score of A+. People loved The Avengers. They loved this movie.

There was a lot of word of mouth. There was a lot of repeat viewings. What do you think it was? Do you think it was just sort of like no one had ever done a team up like this before as effectively as they did? Yeah, there's a lot of little quick seconds and moments in this movie that you can,

when you're watching it the first time and you're trying to figure out what the Tesseract is and figure out who the Chitauri are and what's happening and what the fuss is about, you miss a lot of these one-liners and really cool character moments. And I think that's kind of why you go back to re-watch a movie like this.

After the first time, I think you grasp what happens in the battle for New York, but it's the second right before the battle for New York where Iron Man turns to Hawkeye and says, Bunch up, Legolas. There's a bunch of little one-liners and the

little moments like that that Whedon's really, really good at, even if he sometimes stamps them onto a scene that you don't need them on, I think is why people kept going back. Whether or not his stress levels or angst around the movie was discarded after a while, the way in which these characters essentially talk to each other

has served as the blueprint for every movie that came after it. And there is no Ragnarok without this movie. There is no cool Marvel without this movie, even though I don't know that this movie is that cool. I completely agree. You're right. He set the template in a lot of ways. Now, Iron Man was always very funny because Downey took ownership of that character. And Thor was always Stentorian and Norse mythological. And Captain America was always very earnest. But their interplay is kind of the ingenious nature of the movie. That is kind of how this movie lives and dies. What else about it do you like?

Well, I think that it's interesting that they actually do lay out the conflict that will sort of dominate them up until Infinity War, which is this basically Captain America, Iron Man disagreement about whether or not to follow orders. And it's the sort of the soldier patriot versus the rebellious millionaire, billionaire. And that tension is actually quite good. It really only comes to a head during the put on the suit fight that they have in the conference room. But, you know, nobody really can understand on first pass what the hell is going on with the Tesseract or

why this is all happening. But the idea that you put a bunch of essentially misfits in a room together, uh, and ask them to get along for the fate of the known galaxy is, is a really good one. And I think that that that's the magic. The movie opens, I think a little bit weirdly,

which is with the other, who is the leader of the Chitauri, which is an alien race that is working in service of, we come to learn, is Thanos, who is questing to conquer the universe. Now, in doing so, they have sought the employ of Loki, the Norse, I guess, half-brother, adopted brother? Adopted brother, yeah. Of Thor. And it's just a convoluted plot.

Yeah, like you can have Earth, but you have to basically like give us Earth first. So your prize will be this enslaved planet, but you have to basically be the Benedict Arnold of the human race. That's right. And I love comic books, and I love these characters.

And even for somebody like me, thinking about what they were trying to build here, which they honestly have followed through on, they have kept this story clear and coherent. It's crazy how this movie is literally the sequel to Captain Marvel and the prequel to Infinity War. That's right. That's very wisely positioned.

Like they, they definitely had a big blueprint on the wall. You know, they had the, they had the Homeland cork board and all of the, all of the strands have now connected. But I remember seeing it for the first time being completely disoriented by the Chitauri talking to one another before we even see any of the Avengers in this movie. It's not even, you know what the other thing about it is too, is it's not even that it's, they're not even just doing six origin stories and the origin story of the Avengers in this movie. It's not even, you know what the other thing about it is too is it's not even that it's, they're not even just doing six origin stories

and the origin story of the Avengers. They're doing the origin stories of every character's relationship to one another. So they have to basically start at zero half a dozen times

before Hawkeye shoots down the Harrier jet, which is essentially where like the movie starts. Yes. You know, there's some stuff that happens before that, but so much of it is like, and now we go get Banner in Calcutta and you realize that Banner and Romanoff have

some chemistry, but you also realize that Romanoff and Clint have chemistry. And then you also realize that there's this tension between Steve and Tony. And then there's this whole thing with Thor being the, what triggers S.H.I.E.L.D.'s entire attitude towards the Tesseract and everything else that's going on, which is that Thor showed up and this government agency was like, we are not prepared for people like this to arrive on this planet. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the Tesseract. Yeah, sure. I like the idea of talking about the MacGuffins in these movies. And we did talk about the Tesseract in the first episode of this series too, because it plays a significant part in the Captain America story.

Of course, we're shot forward 70, 80 years into the future, and it's still meaningful. I think that often MacGuffins work better when their powers are not over-explained. And I think that it's a little over-explained what this thing does. One, what do you think about the way that they just thrust us into the mythology of the cosmic cube and everything that's still in Skarsgård has to do? Then very quickly, we meet Loki and then very quickly he's turning everybody evil. Did you feel like too shotgunned into the story? So at the time, yes. And now it feels like old hat.

Like now I'm just like, this is just how comic book movies work where there's just like a lot of gamma ray talk that doesn't really matter. But at the time, I was like, what are they doing? Like they have, they've got the lineup. Why are they playing a different sport?

You know? What about the fact that they talk about the Tesseract as if it would solve everything, as if it could conquer everything. But when you watch Infinity War and you realize

that it's just one of six things that will lead to Thanos doing the thing that he wants to do. It made the stakes, weirdly, of this movie feel a little bit smaller to me. Yeah, I guess so. I guess now knowing that the Tesseract is just part of one of the stones, right? Yes.

And it's the box? It's one of the stones. The stone is inside of the cube. Gotcha. Okay, so just knowing that now, it seems sort of silly that so much blood you know blood is spilled over this one thing when eventually we know where it's going to go it was kind of it was kind of interesting to watch this happen uh knowing that this would just be repeated four or five more times in a lot of different ways

but you know each one of these movies has some completely nonsensical like whether it's the quantum realm in uh in ant-Man or wherever the hell Doctor Strange goes, like the Woodstock place that he goes to. I believe that's the official name, the Woodstock place. I think each one of these movies has their own kind of corny mythology. It's really the interactions between people like Stark and Rogers that, that, that save it. Who was your favorite Avenger? I think, I think it's a,

it's an Iron Man. I think he's pretty unique. You know, they have this movie and I actually would like to chat about this a bit, but this movie, like many Marvel movies has a blank spot where the villain should be. And obviously I think that they, I don't know whether it was crowd testing or what, but the,

the weird back and forth with Loki over the, you know, the few, the Marvel movies of, is he a hero or a villain or just like a constant coward or what? Like, but obviously Loki is an incredibly popular character with Marvel's MCU fans specifically, but this, these movies typically like lack that villainy until you get to Thanos and so Stark actually has the charm the villain usually has. He's the seductive one. You question the official story and another

thing entirely to make wild accusations or insinuate that I'm a superhero I never said you were a superhero Well good because that would be outlandish and fantastic. And typically that's like the heath ledger character it's the hannibal lecter character it's the person who's just like i'm gonna i'm gonna like pick away at like this the the societal kind of boundaries here and in

this case it's a guy who everything about him suggests he shouldn't be a hero i think that's interesting as i what you said about Loki, I do think of him as a Hannibal Lecter figure in this movie, that he's not a pure evil, that he does evil things, but that he is also, he is seductive in his own way. He's also behind a cage at some point and interacting with significant characters in the movie in the same way that Lecter is.

Stark is interesting too, because there is no moral imperative for him you know he seems constantly at war with his own self interest and the idea of who he ought to be or who Pepper Potts wants him to be or something like that he's the thing that's different about these movies I just think that

Downey his sense of humor his delivery his clearly has like a certain intellectual approach to acting and is not afraid to show his delivery, his, uh, clear, clearly has like a certain, um, intellectual approach to acting and is not afraid to show all the circuits firing all the time, I think is a differentiator for this,

for these movies in general. And I think that you can see as they've started to use him in the last six or seven years, more as the uncle that comes into these movies to make them even cooler and set the tone. I think that it's hard to imagine if Guy Pearce had been Iron Man or something. You know what I mean? It's hard to go back and be like,

well, what would have happened if they had cast somebody else as Iron Man? I feel like this movie officially dawned the MCU. This is the movie that announced like, this is the most important series of movies that are happening. Did you sense that at the time? Well, I think that the big test for this movie was whether or not solo album, solo album, group album work, whether or not Iron Man, Iron Man 2, one Thor would be enough to like to set this up.

And essentially, you know, whether or not people would be able to track a macro story across all these different titles. And if they couldn't would that matter like if you hadn't seen thor does it are you completely lost when when avengers is playing i wonder if now if that's more true now or less true i wonder if you need to have seen everything now i don't think that's the case yeah i don't you think you can skip and survive yeah i think that you cannot see iron ant-man 2 and you can get through it. You can, but then you don't know about the quantum realm.

Yeah, I know. It's a tricky thing. But you can be a person who enjoys Infinity War and will probably enjoy Endgame with having really no idea what happens in Ant-Man 2. One of the things I noticed, and you alluded to this, is that basically every Avengers character fights another Avengers character in this movie, which is, of course, kind of the things I noticed, and you alluded to this, is that basically every Avengers character fights another Avengers character in this movie, which is of course like kind of the theme of Civil

War, the third Captain America movie. But I found it interesting that they had to be mad at one another before they could team up. They're also all scared of Hulk. Yes. For most of this movie, they're like, you need to be in a cage, dog. Or like, you know, they're terrified of Hulk. That's actually the biggest fear in this movie. Bigger than the Chitauri or what Loki is going to do. The only thing that really scares these people is Hulk. That's so interesting too, because the Hulk movie that was released before this is officially a part of the MCU, but most people don't really think of it that way. And he, of course, was played by a different actor. Now is a good time to talk about the Edward Norton to Mark Ruffalo transition.

It's an interesting choice and something that doesn't happen very often. And we'll probably have to think about it a little bit more acutely now that a series of actors are going to be replacing other actors, I think, in the MCU. So do you think, if you had to guess,

when you say replacing, do you mean straight up there will be a new Iron Man? Or do you just mean that the characters will step into the roles that were occupied previously by Iron Man or do you just mean that the characters will step into the roles that were occupied previously by Iron Man? If I had to guess as a comic book reader, it would be the latter, that they will find a new figure to take up the mantle of a certain hero. So Bucky Barnes could very well be the next Captain America or Anthony Mackie's character could well be the next war machine. I think that there is a chance that we see a little bit of contractual moving and sliding here.

But Ruffalo is interesting. You, of course, are a bit of a Ruffalo-ologist and an impressionist. where two of the stars of Zodiac are talking about gamma rays and models through which to find the Tesseract within a half a mile anywhere in the world. And it's Mark Ruffalo and Robert Downey Jr. really chopping it up with some ridiculous dialogue. Yes. But also talking, like getting at the idea of

is being a superhero a curse or a privilege? And Stark is basically trying to convince Hulk, like, if you spend time with me, we can figure out a way to control what you are, and that's special. And you're not an outcast. You're not a misfit because of that. It's so interesting to deploy extraordinary acting power on movies like this. You know, even someone like Samuel L. Jackson is just, he's just carrying a lot of weight as Nick Fury, who also is a sort of

a ridiculous figure. And all of these characters are sort of ridiculous figures. And there are some people who we don't have as big a relationship to. You know, we talked about this

in the last episode. We knew Chris Evans. We didn't really know Chris Evans when he became Captain America. And he's still pretty wooden in these movies. And I think, honestly,

purposefully so. I actually kind of admire his approach to the performance. Chris Hemsworth is doing a, it's almost a bit. It's almost like a Norse bit. This is pre-Eric Andre Thor. It's pre-when Thor becomes self-aware.

One of the most interesting parts about what Whedon does in this movie is the amount of meta-comedy that happens. So a character will, I think Loki gives like this whole speech and Iron Man's response is like, what is this Shakespeare in the park? But it is Shakespeare in the park.

I mean, that's the whole point is that you can have your cake and eat it too. Throughout this movie, you can have a huge battlefield speech and then somebody like knocks it down with a pop culture referencing one liner immediately after that. There's also a ton of just very 40s screwball,

like obviously somebody who's watched a lot of Preston Sturgis movies and Howard Hawks movies, just all of the office scenes are laden with pitter-patter dialogue, which is really fun for people like you and I, but it's kind of wild to imagine that being like a primary influence on what wound up being the biggest movie franchise of all time. Some of it is overt and some of it is not. You've

obviously got the creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, one of the most quippy shows in recent history writing this, but you've also got a guy, it's notable that Joss Whedon between the Avengers and Avengers Age of Ultron made a very small modern day adaptation of Much Ado About Nothing. So that Shakespeare in the park thing is real. He actually comes from that tradition and is interested

in that tradition. So it's no surprise. And honestly, it's not as if Shakespeare is not quippy. Who's quippier than Shakespeare? Absolutely. There are a couple of moments

though that I thought were interesting. Did you remember that Powers Booth was in this movie? Isn't that a little bit strange? There are a series of hey, it's guys

or women in this movie that I kind of want to talk about. But there's a moment where Powers Booth was in this movie? Isn't that a little bit strange? There are a series of hey, it's guys or women in this movie that I kind of want to talk about but there's a moment where Powers Booth is communicating via like Skype essentially. Yeah, modern,

hyper modern Skype with Nick Fury. Shield Skype. Shield Skype. And he says, this is why you should be focusing on phase two and Nick Fury says

phase two isn't ready. Yeah. Of course, Marvel's The Avengers is the start of phase two of the Marvel story. Yes. And there's all this like achingly self-referential stuff going on here. Like this, this, this far exceeds Stan Lee having a cameo in the movie. There's something, it's Easter egg inside of Easter egg throughout the movie. Do you enjoy that active movie going

experience where you're sort of have to have a keen eye for that stuff? Or do you want something to wash over you and to vanish inside of a movie? I think it helps when the movies look like this. I think that the levels of density of storytelling are fine if there's not a ton to look at. Like, if I'm watching a Denis Villeneuve movie, I kind of want the story to get out of the way. I want it to be a pretty straightforward, you know, arrival is understandable for the most part until the end of Arrival. You just understand that this is what these people are experiencing. The density of dialogue and story in this movie is actually welcome because there's not a ton to look at. It looks very Burbank.

I have a quiz for you. Sure. Can you tell me what SHIELD stands for? It is an acronym. Would you like to take a guess? So hype. I'm elevating dog. Forgot the L. I forgot the L. Maybe E-L for elevating.

That's not bad. That's not even close. There's actually a handful. Well, you put me on the spot. Of various. Coming up with acronyms is not my super not one of your powers so initially it was supreme headquarters international espionage and law enforcement division that's quite dull it was changed in 1991 to strategic hazard intervention espionage logistics directorate

which is great stuff hard to believe they don't say that out loud within the various films set in the marvel cinematic universe as well as multiple animated and live-action television series, the BACRONIM stands for Strategic Homeland Intervention Enforcement and Logistics Division. I'm Agent Phil Coulson with the Strategic Homeland Intervention Enforcement and Logistics Division. That's quite a mouthful. I know. We're working on it. Now, I'm sharing all this information for a very specific reason, which is when they changed the name to Strategic Homeland Intervention, there's something kind of modern about that. There's something kind of post-9-11 about that.

And one of the more interesting aspects of the movie, and you mentioned the final 40 minutes, are this massive battle. There was a time, and you and I have talked about this privately many times, of being completely exhausted by the full-scale war and destruction of a city. Now, we've been talking about a movie that is quippy and fascinating and I have talked about this privately many times of being completely exhausted by the full-scale war and destruction of a city. Now, we've been talking about a movie that is quippy and fascinating and entertaining and all about the relationship between characters and the birth of this mythology. I feel like the movie kind of simultaneously goes into hyperdrive and grinds to a halt because it becomes kind of a bad, ugly metaphor for the destruction of a city.

And I'm curious how you feel about that, that final 40 minutes, re-watching it. Much less antagonistic towards it than I did the first time. I think the first time I was just like, give me a break. You know what I mean? Like, I got it.

Like, this is dark. But, you know, I think it was also the further use of the Tony Stark's PTSD from that battle. And I was like, you guys, relax. I know that his sort of emotional trauma is a major storyline in the comics. I think there's actually a whole Iron Man line that's just his basically substance abuse problems. Oh, yeah.

He's an alcoholic in the comic books. But I think at the time, and also because we were getting kind of inundated with otherwise fantastical movies playing on the imagery of terrorism, for lack of a better term, I was just pretty cynical about it. At this point, looking back, I don't really care that much. Is it more or less effective that it's New York

rather than Sokovia? I don't know. I mean, what do you think? I'm not a huge fan of it. I think it's a lot to bear for a story like this. And I think that one of the reasons I'm so fond of Infinity War is maybe because the city that is under attack is Wakanda and that feels a little bit more intentional and a little less real. And earned. Yes. Like they set Wakakanda up yes yeah and new york city in the mind of the mcu you know there it appears in thor and it appears in the 1940s in captain america the first avenger and it appears in a kind of like gotham city-esque vision in

iron man um all the daredevil stuff and like all that you know all those stories but it's not it's not it's not 9-11 new york city yeah and it can't be and it shouldn't be so i i find it to be a little bit strange i think that some of the the sequencing of that final 40 minutes is really great and really exciting and some of it is a guy trying to figure out how to be john mctiernan and not quite getting there yeah uh and there's something kind of fascinating about that it does it brings to bear something that i don't think the movie can always hold, because I don't think, I think Joss Whedon as a deconstructionist is often better when he is analyzing and less good when he is trying to raise the stakes.

Well, it seems like that's where his mind stopped, right? Like he does so many things over the course of the first three quarters of the movie to try and unpack and subvert our typical understanding of these people, making superheroes incredibly human. And then he gets to this last set piece, and whether or not this was just Marvel being like, look, this needs to be the biggest thing anybody's ever seen, and we need to have people dragging their jaw off the floor when they get done with it, and you can't screw around.

This can't just be secretly a fight between Thor and Loki in a back room somewhere. Regardless of what happened behind the scenes, I just feel like this is where his subversion stopped, and he was like, I guess I'm just going to do a huge battle sequence. And instead of doing something like what McTiernan would do, which is probably the smartest, most interesting, most spatially aware version of it,

he makes it just triply as long as any battle scene needs to be. I think the other thing too is that the Chitauri, and I can't believe I'm talking about this with a great deal of seriousness, but I am, are faceless and identity-less and we have no relationship to any of those characters. And it's very similar to something that happens in Infinity War

when Thanos' children start sending these monsters into Wakanda and they're just fighting all of the Avengers. And you're like, what are these things? What am I supposed to know about them? Why do I care about them? And they're just a tool to have a grand scale action sequence. It's not like in Civil War, which is a very effective movie.

Yes. When Iron Man and Captain America are fighting. And you know why they're fighting. You know what they disagree about. You understand their characters and their backstory. You've got two really good actors. The dialogue is good, but it almost doesn't matter because you you're,

you've bought in fully. And that is the one trick about the, the Avengers movies, especially the, the three Avengers movies. They almost demand an inordinate scale, like an, an unconquerable scale.

That's why they're going to space. That is why they're going to space. I mean, and I, I do understand the impulse. I do understand. in part, because people like you and me and lots of others are like, I don't like that you destroyed

New York for a fake energy source. That criticism became very public. I see in my summer movies. There's been a lot of backlash to that in years. It's not like we're saying this for the first time. You're right. I think that might be why they're going to space. There is a lot of Marvel history

inside of space. Sure, and I think that that also provides them the opportunity to do, like, it changes the color palette they paint with. They can do all sorts of things. They can add new galaxies.

They can add new races of people. You know, they can do all sorts of things. I do think it's a very good, like, it's at its best when it's grounded on Earth. I do think it's at its best when it's grounded on earth. I do think it's at its best when it's like these characters forced to eat shawarma and interact with the world around them.

I like Iron Man crash landing in Tennessee and Iron Man three. There's, there's a lot of fun stuff that they can do on, on earth, but I can see why they're going out into outer space and trying to make it into a space opera. We've talked a lot about Iron Man, Cap and Thor,

which is the originating trio. I'm curious what you think of some other Avengers. Well, I definitely think that Natasha is the character that Joss liked writing the most. Yes. Stark, we got him. Banner? Just like you said.

Then tell him to suit up. I'm bringing the party to you. I don't see how that's a party it's a very Joss Whedon character it's a badass female character he obviously gets a huge kick out of writing her first scene and her interrogation of Loki scene where he essentially

sets up two moments where you think that she's powerless and then in fact has been playing the interrogator that, or the aggressor the entire time. In some ways, he probably should have just made a Black Widow movie and that would have been dope, you know? I totally agree. I would have liked to have seen that movie. But it's clearly the character who i think he he clearly understands the voice and connects with the most to me at least um i think that she's buffy yeah i think otherwise i would say almost every other character with the exception of nick fury is better in other movies why do you say that i just think that they figured those characters

out more i think captain america got more interesting the more he got used to like, he wasn't unfrozen caveman lawyer anymore. I think Iron Man is at his most interesting at three, but is just like better in his own movies in a lot of ways or being like just a bit player. I think Thor obviously just gets incredible once they're like, this guy could be super funny if we just cut his hair

and let him stop swinging a hammer around all the time. And I think that Hulk lightens up too. I think putting Hulk with Thor in future movies and kind of letting Hemsworth and Ruffalo play around a lot is great. What were some of the people that jumped out to you? Well, I really have been wanting to talk to you for a long time about Hawkeye. You, of course, are the patron saint of the Church of Jeremy Renner. A Rennerologist.

I seem to recall you being excited about Renner being a part of these movies. I could be wrong about that. I mean, I think there was just like a really cool moment where he comes out

of Hurt Locker and it's just like, well, they're just going to give him Mission Impossible and he's going to be in the Marvel movies and he's Hawkeye and Hawkeye is a really

cool character. He is a cool character. They really don't let him be cool in this movie at all. No, they like basically cut his Achilles like five seconds into the game. Yeah, isn't it so strange? And I know that you and Andy on The Watch

have talked about this many times, but every time he gets involved in one of these movies... People seem to have second thoughts. Yeah, almost instantaneously, almost inside of the story of these movies, inside of that Mission Impossible movie, they're kind of like, actually, maybe not Renner. Yeah.

And with Hawkeye, within five minutes of the film loki touches hawkeye's heart with his scepter and he changes him he has like black eyes and he becomes evil you have a heart and he's evil for 98 minutes until he gets Until he blows up the Harrier jet, and Natasha knocks him out, thus breaking Loki's grasp over him. And so we don't get anything that's interesting about Renner. We don't get any of that still, tortured... This box is full of stuff. That almost killed me.

Hurt Locker performance, we don't get any of that kind of ripcord, fiery, the town performance. You grew up right here. same rules that i did i don't why is he there he's too good of an actor to be playing that part and also i just don't hawkeye is definitely the the weirdest and perhaps the most misused figure in this whole story he's cool arrow guy to you know and And I think they make a Legolas joke, but I think they want him to be a blank archer who just sort of walks into scenes and they ask him to do something insane with a bow and arrow and he's like, no problem. But that is kind of a waste of Jeremy Renner's acting capabilities. He's probably the least, it's probably the biggest waste of the entire MCU,

is whatever Renner slash Hawkeye was supposed to be. I know you're not a huge comics guy, but was there an Avenger that you wish was involved in this movie somehow that was not introduced? Because these movies eventually get so overstuffed with characters. Yeah. You know, we don't yet have Vision, we don't yet have Scarlet Witch, we don't yet have Quicksilver, we don't yet have so many other figures that come into the story did this feel at the time to you overstuffed or were you like actually i wish they would have added person x no i think it did a relatively good job of giving everybody a little bit of screen time solo and showing a bunch of different relationships that i thought worked really well i i don't think that there's enough room here for

another major character. And I did think that the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver edition of Ultron was like an incredible self-own for a variety of reasons, mostly which those two characters are just incredible, like super boring and flat. But yeah, I don't think it needed like two or three more people. I wouldn't have subbed anyone out. You got any takes on Vision, Paul Bettany? You know, I just, I never agree with making a character who's like blankness is the selling point. I mean, that's never been,

I don't ever understand why you're like, you know, it would be really cool just to have a character who doesn't react to anything. And it was like you humans and your emotions. Can I share with you some interesting data points about the construction of this story yeah sure so apparently the script went through quote a lot of insane iterations of what it might be according to whedon he explained that there was a point when it was not certain that johansson would star in the film so he wrote a bunch of pages starring the wasp of course we would later

see the form of angeline lilly he was also worried that one British character actor was not enough to take on Earth's Mightiest Heroes and that we'd feel we were rooting for the overdog so he wrote a draft

with Ezekiel Stane Obadiah Stane's son Jeff Bridges' son correct once all the actors were locked into place the movie stayed on a mission Whedon noted

that the characters used do not have the same issue unlike the X-Men he felt these guys just don't belong together before realizing their interactions could be like the Dirty Dozen Whedon noted that the characters used do not have the same issue unlike the X-Men. He felt these guys just don't belong together before realizing their interactions could be like the Dirty Dozen. Whedon also referenced Dr. Strangelove, The Abyss, His Girl Friday, and Black Hawk Down. So the invention of Marvel director bullshit right here. Truly. Yeah. So should we explain what that is? Why don't you do it? You know it better than anybody. Well,

it's just an object of extreme fascination for us over the last like eight or nine years, which is essentially when a director gets involved with one of these major franchises, but starts talking about actually cool movies that they want to reference or they want this movie to feel like. Joss Whedon has talked extensively, I think, about how this film is supposed to feel like at least its action set pieces are supposed to feel like Black Hawk Down. This is like when the Russo brothers talked about Winter Soldier, I think it was. Was it Winter Soldier that was going to feel like the Parallax view? Yes. This kind of goes back to what I was talking about in the beginning, which is essentially

this is the big leagues now. There's nowhere for a director who makes some interesting, smaller, or independent films to graduate. Once you're Chloe Zhao, once you're Anna Boden and Ryan Fleck, once you're Scott Derrickson, once you're Coogler or James Gunn, there is not a mainstream Hollywood entertainment as important or frankly that gets enough backing for you to graduate up into now. We can have the argument all day

about whether you get Trevor Road and you go way too fast from, what is it, safety not guaranteed? Or what was the first Indy to making Jurassic World movies and getting hired and fired from Star Wars movies? But it's fascinating to me that this is where you can graduate to.

And I think it's naive to think that we're being robbed of the next Sidney Pollack or the next Robert Zemeckis or the next Steve Spielberg. I agree with that. But I do think that there is something to be said for the fact that these filmmakers' careers are completely changed by their encounters with the MCU, like no matter what.

So this movie is an interesting test case for that, in part because of what we discussed earlier, which is that for Joss Whedon, like no matter what. So this movie is an interesting test case for that in part because of what we discussed earlier, which is that for Joss Whedon, it feels irreparable. Like he was changed forever by the difficulties of making these movies.

Taika Waititi, on the other hand, can now kind of go make whatever he wants. And he's going to make a live action Star Wars TV show. Among other things.

Which is very, yes, among other things, absolutely. He will also make small movies. He made a small movie that's coming out

later this year, I believe it's called Jojo Rabbit. Oh, yeah. That I'm sure will be fascinating because his other films are fascinating

and they're small and they're intimate. And so, not only is he more rich, he's just more recognized and understood and he's got a lot more personal freedom.

Now, whether that's true of every single person that's gone on to make a film like this, whether Scott Derrickson can go make the small indie that he wants, I honestly don't know. We've seen in the Star Wars universe that somebody like Rian Johnson has very wisely said, I want to be, continue to be a part of the Star Wars world, but also I'm going to make Knives Out. You know, I'm going to make the movie.

Well, Rian Johnson is actually a really interesting parallel to, because Rian Johnson got it worse than anybody. The criticism. Yeah. Or just in terms of, I think another thing that bothered or got to Joss Whedon was just like, interesting parallel to because ryan johnson got it worse than anybody the criticism yeah or just in terms of i think another thing that bothered or or got to joss whedon was just like do you guys like it and and dealing with a generations of people who are like well it's not my avengers you know and not necessarily as vocally as ryan johnson had to deal with what happened in last jedi where you had like literally there's just like hundreds of youtube videos being like this

is why this movie is a piece of shit and and Rian Johnson was like I'm gonna go make a thriller and then I'll come back and make my own story and you guys can't tell me whether or not my story fits with the Skywalker saga and I will I'll be fine and he seems like a really well-adjusted guy and very very cool I wonder whether he learned something from what happened to Joss Whedon in some ways you know It's possible. He's obviously handled it. I think he's handled all of that very well. Joss, I don't recall the Avengers, the first Avengers movie being all that criticized.

I mean, it's got a great Rotten Tomatoes score. Yeah. It made all the money in the world. It solidified Marvel as the strongest brand in popular entertainment, I would say. Oh, yeah. And- It guaranteed that we would get 10 more of these movies. It did. Yeah.

It did. What do you think happens if this movie doesn't succeed in this fashion? You think we're still on this collision course? Essentially what happens if this is Ultron? Yes, honestly. Yeah. I mean, because, and to be completely frank,

I don't necessarily know, there's elements of it that need to be in that order, but there's part of it that does not need to be, likeron is not decidedly a sequel to me you know what I mean and if anything it's kind of a uh off like like a side trip away from the main Avengers story it introduces a couple of key characters into the future you know the the whole vision story is is elemental to getting Infinity War off the ground because he has one of the stones but with the exception of that you're mostly right i mean it gives us scarlet witch and it gives us vision and then otherwise you know i think what it does is um it uses a similarly fraught international conflict idea to tell us a story about what is and is not

and it sets up like all like the things that are supposed to be restrictions against superhero powers because of what happens in sokovia. I get it. But like that... There would be other ways to tell that part of the storytelling. However, I will say, one of the things that struck me watching this movie again

at the very end of the movie was how the news reports that are shown on the television indicate that there are some people who are like, are we sure these guys are heroes? Because they just destroyed our city. And that is a common refrain

in all superhero storytelling. It's true of Superman. It's true of Batman. It's true of the most iconic figures, certainly the X-Men who were feared and mutants and that whole storyline. The idea that the Avengers, who are probably the most earnest superhero team, barring maybe the Fantastic Four, could be positioned- And Arthas is willing to work with the government.

Yeah, truly. Yes, they are in partnership until they are exiled by William Hurt's General Striker, who does not make an appearance in this movie. I wish we could play that for like 1988 William Hurt. It's some wild stuff. When you play General Striker in Exile the Avengers. I want to talk to you about the other people that are in this movie. Yeah, sure. Here's a couple of weird ones. So, Jenny Agutter, do you remember her from movies like Nicholas Rogue's Walkabout? She appears as one of the women on the council with Powers Booth. Okay.

Which is super weird. Your boy, Harry Dean Stanton. Great cameo. Makes a cameo as a security guard. Yeah. Why do you think that happened? Because they were just like, wouldn't it be funny if he crashes into a barn and one of our favorite actors is there? That's a pretty nice thing.

Yeah. Did you notice at the end of the movie when a senator is giving a speech during a news report that it's James Eckhouse, the father from Beverly Hills 90210? Oh, I didn't. I have no idea why he's there. Is that supposed to be the Gary Shandling senator? No, I don't think so. Okay. Perhaps.

Ashley Johnson, who has worked with Joss Whedon over the years, she plays the waitress who sort of represents all New York citizens. And Jerzy Skolnikowski, the famed Polish writer-director, appears as a villain in this movie. Joss Whedon does seem to be having some fun. Despite some of the criticisms that we're giving him, I think he's done a lot of cool stuff in this movie. And kind of admire casting jersey skolomkowski yeah i mean i think that he leans into it man he like makes stellan skarsgard stellan skarsgard has like some ridiculous lines of dialogue and like he gets him to do it he gets him to buy in i i also do think it's worth noting uh i wanted to ask you about this one of the things that's always sort

of nagged at me about comic books in general but i think especially the mcu version of them which are just like a hard pg is consequences now that can it manifest itself with being like this is inappropriate that you're destroying new york but then making it about like a tesseract but i wanted to actually ask you about the agent Coulson death. Yes. I think we should talk about Agent Coulson writ large. You know, obviously, you know, he is a fan favorite

and was one of the first, I think, MCU characters to have like a real hashtag bring Coulson back kind of reaction. Who started that hashtag as I recall? It was a lot of work.

You know, this is pre-BOTS. So it's really, it's elbow grease. Yeah. It was you and Clark Gregg creating know, this is pre-Bots. So it's really, it's elbow grease. Yeah, it was you and Clark Gregg creating fake accounts. Me, Colin Farrell, Bill. Only the best. Yeah. But his death is the only significant death in this movie for the most part.

I mean, they make mention of, you know, there's a really funny line where Thor is like trying to like assert that that Loki belongs to Asgard. He's like, that is still my brother. And then they're like, well, he killed 80 people yesterday. He's like, he's adopted. But Agent Coulson's death is supposed to be like Han Solo getting frozen. And then he's just back in like a movie. And he's

first of all, he's just like on a TV show. And then like two movies later, it's like he's fine, right? Like that. isn't that the... No, that's not what happens. What happens to him? He's dead. He's still dead? He's in Captain Marvel because that's a movie set in the 90s.

Yeah, but he never comes back? I don't believe so. I mean, I wanted to talk about him because he's an interesting... Obviously, Clark Gregg is an actor that Joss Whedon loves and has worked with a lot. He appears in that much ado about nothing. You know, he's instrumental in the telling of the S.H.I.E.L.D. story. I mean, let's take a look at Phil Coulson as a figure. Let's see where he appears.

Certainly he was the star of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. He appears in Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Thor, The Avengers, and Captain Marvel. That's it. So I was wrong. He appears in Marvel One-Shot that is appended to Captain America

in which he defeats two robbers in a convenience store. Well, it just speaks to how big his spirit shines. Yes. I thought he was in Ragnarok. It just speaks to how there have been too many of these and you've seen too many and you imagined him as the lead in every Marvel film. But what gets these characters to actually be sad and you've seen too many and you imagined him as the lead in every Marvel film. But it is,

what gets these characters to actually be sad is an interesting setup. And what makes these characters actually feel anything in between all the quips and all the speeches? I enjoy that.

What do you think it is? You think it's the sacrifice of a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent? I think that there's a lot of self-eval going on among the Avengers about who is actually a hero. And it's interesting how they identify that this guy who just simply worshipped Captain America

was a good dude, dated a cellist, and had baseball cards. And him, you know, there's a conversation between Cap and Iron Man where it's like, you know, you would never throw yourself on a wire for another guy. And Tony Stark's response is, I would just cut the wire. And it's obvious that at the end, Coulson is what kind of brings Captain America and Iron Man's worldviews together, albeit only for a few movies. The thing is, it's a open acknowledgement that the heroes

can acknowledge their fans and Coulson is the stand-in for the audience and that's why they have to kill him in some ways

in the same way that we have been sacrificed to the Marvel Universe and that moment where he throws the baseball cards that have Captain America

on them onto the table after he's been killed is representative of the way that we collect and admire and look up to these figures. And that is who Coulson is supposed to be.

He's a stand-in. Yeah. And that's why they have an emotional relationship to him. There's that weird moment where Coulson is explaining to Thor how they've saved Natalie Portman's character. Yeah. It's like a nice excuse for Natalie Portman not having to appear in the Avengers. She was so furious that Patty Jenkins got fired off of Thor

that she was just like, I'm done after this. Yes. Yeah. So that's a, it's interesting, but that is meant to signal like, well, Thor and Agent Coulson now have a real relationship. And then when he dies, Thor is crushed. Yeah. But Coulson, who he barely knows, is dead.

It's a storytelling device. Well, I bring it up because we have now arrived at the much more significant version of that storytelling device about actually letting go with some of these vendors, maybe. Are you ready to let go? I don't know if Marvel is, you know, and I think that there's a like a subdivision of what we do, which is concern trolling Marvel and concern trolling like superhero movies. And like, what are you guys going to do when Downey hangs it up? You know, and it's obviously like I went on. I talked about how I was not a fan of Captain Marvel.

It didn't matter. It made like a billion dollars worldwide. I don't know that these are critic proof movies, but I do think that these are characters that they have had in this world for a decade. And if that's the case, people are going to feel very attached to Chris Evans and very attached to Robert Downey Jr. and very attached to Mark Ruffalo. And I'm sure that there's enough money in the coffers to entice these guys to keep showing up to do it. But I think as it's, they've definitely pledged that this is the movie coming up with real consequences. And Chris Evans walking around being like, I cried three times during this

movie during Endgame suggests that we're going to have to let go of more than Coulson. Yes and no. On the one hand, I think it means that Chris Evans won't have to carry the burden of three more Captain America movies. On the other hand, I kind of stopped being worried about this at three different junctures. The first was when I saw Guardians of the Galaxy. I was like, oh. They actually figured this out. Now, whether you like that movie or not, that is a movie that is not super important to Marvel canon,

made by a guy who really had never made anything even close to that scale before. Yes. And it's hugely successful on its own merits and it's perfectly cast. And they found Pratt.

So this orb has a real shiny blue suitcase, Ark of the Covenant, Maltese Falcon sort of vibe. And they found Dave Bautista. Why aren't you wearing one of Rocket's arrow rigs? It hurts. It hurts.

I have sensitive nipples. And they found Gamora. And Quill, your ship is filthy. And they found Groot. Groot. And Groot. Whoa! And they found Rocket Raccoon. Groot. And Groot. Whoa! Hey.

And they found Rocket Raccoon. I need his prosthetic leg. His leg? Yeah. God knows I don't need the rest of them. Look at him, he's useless. Your favorite. And that was a huge step,

because then they just created five characters that you instantly have a relationship with. And they scraped them from the outer regions of the comics IP. And that's why Chloe Zhao's The Immortals somehow seems important, even though it's not that important to my perception of Marvel history. Then Spider-Man Homecoming comes out. And Tom Holland is really like, he's the real Peter Parker.

He is like the Peter Parker we, quote unquote, we were waiting for. I mean, he is the right size. He has the right spirit. He has the right voice. He is athletic, but small. The right age. So he's not going to be like, please let me stop playing Spider-Man soon. Or I have to now do Spider-Man as like an angry late twenties guy. Exactly. He's not Tobey Maguire. He's not even Andrew Garfield, who I thought at the time was such an inspired pick. And those movies were so ill-constructed that it really betrayed him in some ways.

Garfield is kind of like the actor version of what happened to Whedon. He's like, he wanted it so bad and wanted it to be good so bad. And it like kind of just the actor version of what happened to Whedon. He wanted it so bad and wanted it to be good so bad and it kind of just was too much. I don't think that's his fault. I think he was winning, but those movies... I don't think it's Whedon's fault. I don't know what happens if the Russo brothers do Avengers Avengers Age of Ultron.

I don't necessarily know what happens if you don't have that built in banter, the sort of emotion balanced out with sarcasm, the sincerity balances sarcasm that Whedon really instills into all these characters? It's a great question. I really don't know. I think you're right that Whedon always had to be sacrificed. But if the Russos had come in for Ultron, my guess is you get a better movie. You're probably right.

The only other character too that kind of settled all of this and you can make certainly make the case for captain marvel now though i think that the argument is is long over is black panther you know we got this entire universe i think if they just made black panther movies those movies would all be successful you're right there were four or five characters in that movie that people like i want to see the mbaku movie you know i I want to see Letitia Wright's character get her own movie. Like that's an, that's a big achievement. And it feels so far away from this time when Joss Whedon is straining to make

sure that Iron Man and Black Widow can have a conversation. So we know that they know who each other is. Yes. That's just, they've come so, so, so far. It is a really impressive storytelling achievement to me in a lot of ways,

even though i think if you start to think too hard about the chitauri entering a wormhole created by a cosmic cube to invade new york with demon dragon ships that are metal that are some sort of biomechanic yeah what do you think of those dragon ships they They're a cool thing, but if I, they're a cool visual bit, but if I had to say, I just think that that whole, that whole sequence and their, the rendering of those guys is kind of like what I'm talking about,

where I'm like, Whedon was an incredible screenwriter who was just like a little out of his depth in terms of directing. And it's not his fault because these kinds of movies have crushed directors who are completely well-versed in staging action sequences like Zack Snyder. You know what I mean? Like, I think that when you start to get- You really needed, it's so funny that the two of those guys worked together sort of on Justice League, which is ultimately not a successful movie in my mind. But what I always

felt like you needed was the painterly grand structural genius of Zack Snyder with Whedon's dialogue and we did kind of get it and it didn't work so what do I know yeah yeah I do think that at the end at the end of the day it's it's going to be fascinating to see if they try to do this again if they try to essentially say okay we've got Guardians we've got Captain Marvel we've got Black Panther maybe one or two titles. What's the next iteration of the Avengers? What's the next team up movie? How far into the future is it? And how much do little things like, and when we talk about, yeah, like there have been multiple times over the years that Marvel has proven that it doesn't need the Avengers to, the core Avengers to keep this going. But they've also definitely made sure that Downey

is in a bunch of these movies to start Spider-Man off on the right foot or to come in and give Captain America 3 a different vibe. So what happens when you do not have Dennis Eckersley to come out of the bullpen and close things? Honestly, just put Chadwick Boseman in his place and it would be fine. I really think it would be fine. Okay. If you put Chris Pratt in for 10 minutes. Now, this is a generational thing. My little sister, who I will reference, I think, on every episode of this show, I don't think she cares at all about Robert Downey Jr. I don't think she has any relationship to his work beyond Iron Man. So removing him would be meaningful to you. You are huge Downey Jr. fan. I'm not doing this because I think the pickup artist is a good movie. I'm saying this because he is an essential component of, he's the guy who

wants them to get together. He's the guy with the means to bring them together. He's the guy who understands the technology that they need to do what they do. That's not something that Chris Pratt's character is. That guy likes to listen to mixtapes and fly around the universe. So it's an interesting, it's a, yeah, I take your point, but I do think actually the Iron Man itself is an important, like, storytelling device.

And the desire to save the Earth is an interesting storytelling device. I'm sure the Korean Skrulls will just be gangbusters business for the years to come. But I do think, but your sister aside, I do think that

some people might be like that's not exactly like what i'm interested in so you stan a playboy billionaire philanthropist that's right sorry make make superheroes great again yeah run me over with your iron man hulk buster uh chris let's just talk about the stingers to wrap this up i think these are the most important stingers that these movies have ever done. Have cost me probably a full day of my life waiting for the end of a thousand visual effects credits to go by so that I can see Paul Rudd be like, what? So these two stingers, the first of which is the reveal of Thanos as the Mad Titan, the great villain behind the architect of this whole plan to destroy 50% of the entire galaxy in an effort to seek balance. And I remember at the time knowing who Thanos wasn't seeing it and thinking

like, that was cool. Good reveal. Good stuff. Yeah. I saw the movie for the first time at a critics screening and I would say a good 80% of the people walking out of the screen were like, what the, who the fuck was that?

What was that? And that's interesting, you know, because I think that when you see a little bit of contempt from critics for superhero movies, at least the previous generation of critics, it's because of stuff like that. It's because there's a lack of clarity and like a little bit of a teasing aspect

to what they're doing. But teasing, of course, is the whole point of the MCU at this point. We are on this daisy chain of cultural connectivity now on these stories. So I found that one to be very effective. I don't know. Did you know or care or understand that at the time? You know, I think that if you saw this movie when it came out with critics who were not either already into superhero films or were a little cynical about the emergence of superhero films.

And they saw that and they'll probably be like, I don't know who that is and screw them for thinking I did. But there's a lot of people who are like, I don't know who that is. I'll go look it up on Wikipedia. And then that, you know, it is, it's not like, I don't think it was an insult

to put Thanos at the end of this movie. I thought it was interesting. And what was even more interesting was that he's not really in the second movie and that Joss Whedon was like, I don't understand. I don't think I can get my head around Thanos. He's like, I'm very interested in him.

I love the storyline from the comic books. But when it like, it kind of seems like when push came to shove, he was like, I don't understand how to execute Thanos in this world. So in the Marvel canon, Thanos is in love with the figure of death. Yes.

And there's a reference to this overtly in this stinger scene where we, we seem to think that Thanos's motivations will be being in love with the embodiment of death. And so the death is what he will give to his beloved to, to make him worthy, to, to, to affirm his relationship.

To challenge them is to court death. And then the movies don't do that. They do this other genocidal, intellectual, emotional power grab thing. And I think that that's also well done too. As I've said a bunch of times, I actually really like Infinity War, and I think it's cool what they did with Brolin and that whole character, but it's funny to see them pivot away as Whedon walks away from the series from what

it seemed like he was trying to set up. Now, the second stinger is arguably more important, even though it means nothing, which is at the very end of the credits, as you indicated, after all of the visual effects, after all of the gaffers and the grips and the lights and everything goes by, we see the Avengers in a shawawarma joint hanging out for a cool 30 seconds and i remember being

annoyed by that at the time why and not charmed because i was like um i felt tricked and that's the real movie you guys wanted to make a little bit a little bit a little bit like um or even maybe that's a real movie i would enjoy. I think it would be fun to not worry about the pre-vis action sequences in one of these movies and just get a hang. You know,

I love a hang movie. Yeah. But that's not something that Marvel's willing to do because every movie now has to make an increasingly big multiple. You know,

there has to be more and more and more. And no movie set that in motion more than the Avengers. I assume that you liked that final scene. That was cute. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I think that it's more cute because it's Robert Downey Jr., Chris Evans, and Scarlett Johansson hanging out than it is those characters. Or at least it was to me. There was something very humanizing and humble about that scene for those guys uh inevitably when you're like dressed up like the way they are in these movies and you have to do the things that they do there's a like a kind of um probably like a like not even a suspension of disbelief but you know you just kind of have to be you have to believe in yourself in that way and that was a moment for these really good actors to just kind of be chilled out and be normal. I've long given up hoping that we'll ever get the, like,

what if Thor ran a bar movie, you know, be great. I know it would. I know. Or even just the reservoir dogs of Avengers movies, you know, wouldn't you dig that?

Wouldn't you dig a little, I guess Ant-Man aspires to that in some respects. Yeah, I think Ragnarok is the Buckaroo bonsai of these things where it's just like a technicolor, you know, weird escape movie. But yeah, that was, that to me was always the stinger that was a little bit like this is the

movie we wish we could make but it was also like this is what makes our movies good is the fact that these people at the end of the day even if we don't make the shawarma scene in the second act and make it prime real estate you know it's there you know it's in the background of the day, even if we don't make the shawarma scene in the second act and make it prime real estate, you know, it's there, you know, it's in the background of these scenes is that these people like to hang out together, that all these actors like each other and all these characters ultimately like each other. I think that's a great place to wrap this up. Chris, thank you so much for diving deep into the Chitauri lore. Yeah, man. Do you feel you have been swayed by Loki's charms?

I mean, I have a lot of, if people want to contact me, I have a lot of Chitauri fanfic. Just kind of imagining how they regrouped politically and socially after the Avengers movie.

Just kind of a lot about their cast system, a lot about their parliament. So hit me up, Chitauri at Hotmail.com if you want to get any of

that. Thanks, Chris. Thank you.