The Big Picture - ‘The Beatles: Get Back’ and Our Fab 5 Beatles Albums

Episode Date: November 30, 2021

The weekend delivered a bountiful feast for Beatles fans: Peter Jackson’s epic, revelatory eight-hour ‘Get Back’ documentary series on Disney+. Amanda and Sean talk about the film today and their favorite Beatles albums (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by Penny Lane, whose film ‘Listening to Kenny G’ in the latest installment of The Ringer’s Music Box series, which premieres on HBO and HBO Max Thursday night (49:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Penny Lane Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, longtime writer with The Atlantic Magazine on tech, culture, and politics. There is a lot of noise out there, and my goal is to cut through the headlines, loud tweets, and hot takes in my new podcast, Plain English. I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know to give you clear viewpoints and memorable takeaways. Plain English starts November 16th. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the Beatles. The Thanksgiving weekend delivered a bountiful feast for all Beatles fans.

Peter Jackson's epic, revelatory, delightful eight-hour get-back documentary series on Disney+. Amanda and I are massive Beatles fans, and we'll be talking about the film today and our favorite Beatles albums. Later in this episode, I'll have a conversation with documentarian Penny Lane, who's listening to Kenny G. It's the latest film in our Music Box series. It premieres on HBO and HBO Max Thursday night. Penny is brilliant, really charming, super smart, fun to talk to. It's fitting we're pairing her interview with a discussion on the Beatles because her interest in Kenny G. and her film explores whether there is a meaningful distinction between quote unquote good art and bad art. Let's start with what we feel strongly is good art, the Beatles. Amanda, what is Get Back?

Explain this project. Okay. Everyone stay with me. So in its shortest form, Get back is a three-part documentary mini series about the making of the Beatles album let it be and also what would eventually become a kind of much hated 1970 documentary let it be which is hard to see and the footage, which was directed and restored by Peter Jackson, well, the documentary directed and restored by Peter Jackson is drawing from footage that was filmed during the recording of Let It Be, which was in January 1969. And so this spans 22 days, and it is behind the scenes coverage of the Beatles together in various studios and ultimately performing on a rooftop, making an album and what many people know would become their last album.

So it is about the Beatles. It is about how the Beatles made music, wrote music. It's about how the Beatles interacted with each other. And it is about kind of a last much contested chapter of Beatles history. And it is absolutely insane that this documentary exists. It feels like a miracle. Michael Lindsay Hogg, who directed the 1970 film, I don't know if he necessarily came under fire. And we learn even more clearly that this was intended as a kind of tv special and then was transmogrified into a feature documentary that feature documentary has been very hard to see

for a long time it's only 80 minutes long and it i think it really only clipped out not only but primarily clipped out some of the more dour aspects of this recording process and so i'll start with this there's a lot to unpack about this movie and what makes this movie so special, but this showed the band in all of its forms. It showed the band as a group of friends. It showed the band as a group of friends struggling to stay connected to each other. It showed the band as a creative alchemical union. It showed them as individual artists trying to work things out for themselves. It showed them unified. It showed them as individual artists trying to work things out for themselves. It showed them unified. It showed them moving in separate directions, showed them funny. It showed them sincere. It showed them angry and confused. It was the totalizing picture of the

Beatles at, of course, a very distinct period in time, but also it felt representative, I think, of all of the feelings that we project onto these four guys. So for me, I really could not think of a single piece of art about artists, about the creative process, about these people paired together that even can compare. I assume you were also gobsmacked by the way it was built together. Yeah, this is, as Peter Jackson has said himself, it's the closest you can get to building a time machine and just being in the studio with the Beatles. Obviously, almost every aspect of the Beatles' career was crucial, but this is a really key moment

in their history. A lot of things are bubbling up. A lot of things that we have all argued about and speculated about from the reasons they broke up to, you know, who made who angry and who's to blame. And like, just like the stew of how these people worked together and what made them so great. And also what made it unsustainable. There's so much here that speaks to all of that and doesn't necessarily provide an answer because ultimately, you know, in all complex life situations, there are no answers. There's just a lot of life and a lot of things happening simultaneously. But it's like basically like being in the studio with the Beatles for a month.

Like it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy Like it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. It's crazy that they allowed these cameras to be rolling. I, you know, I know now every single artist is just like constantly, you know, videoing every moment of their life for some sort of like self archival,

but they just, there's a tremendous amount of access, a tremendous amount happens. And also these are like in Lennon and McCartney especially two of the most talented songwriters in living memory and you just get to watch the magic happen I I you have to be a Beatles fan on the level that we are I think to get really excited about eight hours that's long eight hours is long it's, I want to say, like 60 hours of video footage, like 150 hours of audio footage.

That's a lot. If you don't care about the Beatles, maybe you are not. Maybe hour six, you're like, cool, I got this. But for you and for me, who are just diehard Beatles fans, this is, it is miraculous. As you said, I honestly can't believe it exists. It rules. It's so cool. So the film was originally conceived, Peter Jackson's film was originally conceived as a two and a half hour documentary for Disney Plus. And then over time, it's clear

that Jackson, with all of this footage, both video and audio on his hands, knew he needed to expand it. COVID-19 hitting, I guess, was, you know, insofar as something like this can be helpful, it was helpful for the project because it allowed Jackson to take one more full year after already working for two plus years on editing this footage to continue to expand the story. And it also meant that the movie was effectively moving out of theatrical release and into a Disney Plus experience. I am a more is more person with projects like this. I do like, you know, the example that Bill Simmons and I have always kind of quarreled over was the Larry Sanders, Gary Shandling documentary, which was like

nearly four and a half hours. But I loved because Gary Shandling passed away and I just want as much time with him as I can possibly get. And I feel very similarly to this. I'm not trying to say Gary Shandling is the Beatles, but the Beatles are no more. And so if you can maximize my time spent with them, what you get on the fringes is, I think, kind of critical developments in observing how these people interact and how they build things together and separately.

Specifically, the one that has been cited most frequently and is the most extraordinary is watching Paul McCartney in real time discover the melody and the chorus for Get Back. I almost had a stroke. I was literally yelling at the TV screen. It is crazy. Now, you might say that in a two and a half hour documentary, they would have included that segment because of course it is amazing to watch, but would it have been featured in quite this way and told in this fashion with this arc?

I don't necessarily think so. I think it's worth noting that Michael Lindsay Hugg did not include that footage in his original 80 minute, you know, very dour, let it be documentary. We have to start, the names get confusing here, but the documentary that was released in 1970 does not include that footage. But yes, probably any other person would have realized what goal they have. I mean, as my husband said when we were watching it, it's like that scene in music biopics that I always love so much when people are just sitting around, you know, piano or whatever. And suddenly like respect, like Are whatever, and suddenly like respect, like Aretha Franklin's version of respect,

like jumps out and it always seems so manufactured and like, wow, the magic of movies, but like Paul McCartney just does it in two minutes and you're watching it. I, my mind will never be able to understand that. So he does do it and he does have that lightning strike moment of creative inspiration. But one of the other things that this film does that I've never seen before in a music

documentary, and I've watched many music documentaries, I would argue I've probably watched more music documentaries than any person my age that is alive, especially given the work that I've been doing on our music documentary series. But this film shows you not just that two and a half moments where you see someone create a hit single in real time, but it shows them working through all the component parts of the hit single, practicing and practicing and combining the different elements of the band and Ringo discovering what the rhythm of the song should be. George figuring out and sometimes quarreling with his partners in terms of how to be complimentary

when he's not at the center of attention. The characterization of George in this movie is really interesting. It's probably the most interesting moment for cameras to have been on George Harrison during his period with the Beatles. He could quibble with whether that's true for Lennon or for McCartney or even for Ringo.

But George in particular is clearly at this crux of his creative life. So it does give you those incredible fake seeming music biopic moments, but it also shows you that it's not that easy. It's not that simple. Like it requires a kind of teamwork. It requires a kind of stick-to-itiveness.

And it also requires what the biggest takeaway for me, and I really want to hear how you felt about this, as a longtime Paul Allegiant, as somebody who has been a Paul person for as long as I've heard the Beatles, this proved to me why I'm a Paul person, which is that he is brilliantly creative and almost preternaturally touched by some higher power when it comes to melody and songwriting, but also is such a type A, hardworking, tunnel vision weirdo. And I mean that with so much affection. I identify with Paul and his desire to just stay on track and continue to forge ahead no matter what. Sometimes in the wake of other people's feelings and in the wake of good sense.

But in this film, with all of these other people who are kind of floating around him in the state of the band, very much up in the air, he is a relentless force of creativity. And it's inspiring and i can understand why it would be off-putting to some people but i i was just astonished by his willingness to push forward at all times in the movie what did you make yeah i mean this is a paul mccartney podcast this is that's what unites us ultimately like against the world at large and the and the many um lennon you know enthusiasts although like i love john lennon enthusiasts. Although, I love John Lennon, and I would agree with you about this as an explication of Paul.

That speech, I mean, there were several Paul speeches, but the one of him just saying over and over, we need a schedule, we need some goals, we need to accomplish something, we need a schedule, it will haunt me because of what I saw myself in this. But I think what the movie does that's so amazing is that it shows you all of those tensions and it really shows you Paul's genius and also kind of his more irritating, if productive, qualities.

And then it does also show when John Lennon shows up and like dials in which is rare in this and I think it's really interesting another part about this documentary just the contrast between this the recording sessions and then when you finally get to the performance on the rooftop and you're just like oh wow John Lennon the the rock star is like back he is like he's like he's performing this is what he does and you do get a sense of sometimes he's in the room but not always fully in the room which is you know just like another interesting dynamic we're not gonna touch that third rail yet but even there are small moments and I think they're writing uh I mean there's a great point when they're

figuring out some of the lyrics of get back and you know the way that John and Paul are interacting and John's just like tossing off lyrics that go in like it's you know he's like tossing off a breakfast order or something and the the funny bit about you know the Tucson Arizona line and then John being like is Tucson Tucson in Arizona? It's, I mean, it's just like great banter and you see the way that they kind of improved each other. And then I believe they're duetting on two of us and figuring out the harmonies. And it's like five minutes before George quits the band. And even the way that the angle of the camera is shot, you are watching, like you see the story, Lennon McCartney like transcendent it's not romantic but they are on another level they are like mind melded it's very inspiring and then

George is just like in the side of the frame so pissed off at everybody and not even in a I mean I don't think he likes that song very much, but it's just the third wheel, the little brother, like can't quite fit into this thing that is, is ultimately is what animated the Beatles. And you do see them, Paul and John kind of get it together at certain points throughout. And it's like, it's, it's really inspiring that,

and, and also a reminder of just like, you can't totally like manufacture these things like sometimes like kismet really does happen yeah their alchemy is historic it is historic in the history of recorded music and that that song the title of that song the message of that song being so perfectly representative of john or excuse me george always sort of being somewhat on the outside looking in and looking up and being the youngest and being the one who is lucky to get two songs on an album and being dominated by this duo. But you're right. The story of Paul and John is so complex. And in the last 20 years or so,

it feels like Paul has taken great pains to clarify the profundity of their friendship and their partnership. But in the 70s, John in particular got very sharp elbowed about Paul and they went back and forth at each other. And so there was this perception that there was just a bad blood between them or something or the way that things had gone. This movie, I wouldn't say necessarily upends all of that,

but it shows in the full light of day what was so special between them and how you know when you have a friend that you've known for a decade or two decades the way that these guys knew each other since they were 15 16 years old 14 years old there is something unspoken that can be so powerful and it's very rare to see, especially amongst guys like this who have been so famous now for a six or seven year period and have been so overexposed and feel burnt out. I mean, that's the other thing about this period in time is they are nearing the end of their lifespan and they are so frustrated in many ways. And there still are these flashes of creativity that links

them that is really ineffable. It's very hard to actually talk about specifically some of the songwriting moments that they have between them. And, you know, John, it's documented that he's struggling a lot with a burgeoning heroin addiction during this period. And also the introduction of Yoko Ono as a figure in this story has been complicatedly reported over the years. I think this movie does a really fascinating job of identifying the level of self-awareness that everyone involved here had and that it was not this kind of like

ghoulish devil woman who entered the picture, that it was something much different, that John clearly needed this like support figure in his life and that the band is pretty respectful of that, which I liked that it kind of like upended a lot of our expectations around those things. But the thing that is kind of lasting for me is just exactly what you just described between Paul and John is this thing that they had that very few people in the history of this

kind of music have had together, you know, that their egos did not get in each other's way. Even at the end of the band's lifespan, while everyone is sort of struggling with all these feelings, they still could sit down for two hours, make jokes. I mean, I'm doing the ventriloquism bit when they're, you know, just singing along without opening their teeth is great stuff. I was going to say, at least two hours and probably three hours of this documentary is John and Paul like singing, you know, Chuck Berry songs and their old songs in weird voices, but like three hours that you sit through experientially, which I did even, I found like my Paul type a at some point being like, Oh my God, guys, like this is come on, like, please just buckle down and, and, you know, practice your song. Why are we doing this again? But that was both a fascinating

look at just what happens when you put creative people in a room and kind of all of the not wasted energy, but kind of like extra stuff that has to happen around someone actually having a burst of genuine inspiration. And then also, as you said, that they are, they have this deep relationship. I don't have siblings, so I don't really totally understand the sibling relationship, but it's what I've always imagined this, this sibling thing to be of you're very closely like inextricably linked, but can also like hate each other one second and then be like totally fine with each other the next that there's just like a different hardwiring.

It's pretty amazing and really endearing throughout the movie, even though they just, again, they weigh so much tape. They do, but you get the impression that this is what they needed to get to the place they got to. I mean, this is getting ahead of ourselves a little bit, but my God, this made me appreciate the album, Let It Be, so much more. It made me like these songs so much more, watching them construct them. And alternately, it had me thinking about how differently things could have gone. Because one of the things that's in this session that is so cool is you see them not just writing these 10 songs that comprise let it be, but writing half of Abbey road.

And then also you can feel on the edges, a lot of George solo material in particular, this moment where we watch, I guess this has recently been released on a kind of box set expansion of this, these sessions, but, and there were,

you could find them on bootlegs, but hearing George present All Things Must Pass, and then Paul harmonizing with him on All Things Must Pass early in the film, and early in these recording sessions, it reveals two things. It reveals one that there could have been another 10 years of the Beatles, which would have been interesting. It also reveals where George is at, at this critical stage in his life and creative career where he has so many songs inside of him. He has so much to say.

And the things that he's interested in are increasingly different from the things that the rest of the band is interested in. His spiritual exploration, it feels like John and Paul have gone through, like, a fad where they go to India and they spend time with the Maharishi. And they're even remarking in this film that they sort of don't understand why they went, you know? And you can see George sitting there silently thinking about, you know, this is my faith, you know? This is something so important to me. And they're so dismissive of it and so sort of like be mused by their own little side journey and for george it obviously becomes kind of the centerpiece of a lot of the music that he would

go on to make and it is it is such a unique example and this happens with siblings this happens with people who work together creatively all the time but you can outgrow each other or aspects of each other and watching ge George outgrow his friends is also, is really the core tension, I would say, of this film. Yeah. He has that incredibly on the nose, but also just kind of heart-wrenching speech. Or he's speaking with John and Paul's not in the room

and he just talks about how he just like, he has all these songs and he's like, I thought I could just give them to other people, but like, no, he's like, I want them for me and maybe I can just go do my own thing and then we can also like be the Beatles and John is not really like John's like I'm trying not to commit to anything right now because I'm not interested in this uh but and which is sad in its own way right that even George is like trying to feel this out and make a space for all these things that are going on and, and in a different way than Paul not getting the engagement that he wants. But the other thing to keep in mind in this, I think George Harrison is 25 in this documentary.

And I think Paul is 26. They're all like 25, 26, 27, 28, which is so young. And obviously they've lived a million lives. And at this point, because of who they are and the success that they've had, and they've lived a million lives together. As you said, they met as very young teenagers, but of course at 25, you're just going to be like, I got to find my own thing. You still got a lot of that fire and you all of them do and it's fascinating to watch kind of like their old before their time wisdom and experience kind of clash with the basic fact of their age which is just still really young yeah i think i i there are also

it comes out in the music at times i don't think i totally put together that george writing i mean mine in the face of leaving the band was a like not a metaphor you know it was literal there was something very specific about how he was feeling and it feels at times like paul doesn't see it you know it feels like he doesn't in the way that i was kind of astonished by how self-aware he was about Yoko and Yoko's presence in the band's life at that time, he seems oblivious or dismissive of George in a very specific way. And I guess I don't know what to take away from that. I don't know if he was just hopeful that the way that many people can be, and I can be like this sometimes, so maybe I understand it, but just putting blinders on and saying like, we have to continue on in this way and i if i don't

acknowledge your struggles maybe they will go away somehow but it does create for this short period in time like the kind of tension that also still creates great art like they still are making things together that work but it makes you you wonder if they hadn't done something like this in front of cameras, would it have been better for the band? Would it have been worse for the band? I started thinking about that as I went through the film again. I was like, did this help them or hurt them or did it not matter in the long run of the Beatles? One of the things I like about the documentary itself and its sort of eight-hour experiential approach is that it doesn't really try to answer that question.

I don't know if there's an answer to it. There's not because this is what happened. And we can watch it and we can understand that George is working through his own instincts and artistic aspirations and his place in the band. And Paul is trying to keep things together because he knows that what he's supposed to do and kind of the older brother thing. And also because he's a type a genius but he like doesn't

understand what's going on and he seems so rattled when George quits and then John doesn't show up and and and gives that whole larger speech about what they'll say in 50 years and and what this all means and and John is you know we haven't even talked about the flower pot scene, which I gasped, but there is, there's audio that was taken of a conversation at lunch between John and Paul. They went to have a private conversation and producers hid a microphone in a flower pot at lunch. And they have like a very honest or as honest as I think any two people can be in the middle of something and very tender conversation about George and how they treat George and kind of how they treat each other. It's like the closest to

couples therapy that this, this particular couple can get. And they don't have the answers. They don't know what to do. They're sort of self-aware, but they're living through it. And that's what this is. It doesn't make some sort of argument for this is why the Beatles broke up or here's why Let It Be is the best, most underrated Beatles album. Here's the other thing. it's just like this this is actually what happened this is what these guys were living through which to me it's very long but like as an incredibly engaging take and I and again I don't I don't think there are any answers you know I well the flowerpot sequence is interesting and it reminded me a bit of the jinx you know of Robert Durst kind of admitting to the crime.

Obviously there's no crime that they're admitting to in this moment, but there's one critical exchange in that conversation between those two guys, which is when Paul says to John, you know, you have been the boss and I have been sort of the secondary boss. And you can feel Paul is sort of surging ahead in terms of who's driving the direction of the band. And that John is in this state where, you know,

he has retreated to this relationship with Yoko. Maybe he's struggling with some things in his social personal life. And also Alan Klein looms as this specter, really this sort of devil at the door for what's going to happen to the band and what's going to happen to John. And John just says, I am where I've always been with this, which is self-preservation.

And John is well understood to be this hard to decipher figure of working class identity. Somebody who could never get out of his mind this idea that like I had nothing and I had to make something of myself and I have to protect myself at all costs. And obviously that's a tragic point of view now, given everything that transpired in his awful, awful death. But it puts that in such sharp relief as you think about George trying to self-preserve as well. And Ringo in his way, trying to self-preserve by continuing to just go with the flow at all turns. You know, just, it is amazing how much he lived up to his reputation

in this film, which is that he seems like the nicest guy on the planet, a legitimately good friend, obviously a tremendously gifted drummer, exactly the person that this band needed

because even watching Paul Wright get back, within minutes, he's just got the rhythm, he's just got the rhythm. He's just got the clap. And the rhythm is like 30% of that song being as amazing as it is, you know, is this like train on the track sensation that you feel on so many of their best songs, especially in the second half of their career, where the songs are motored by this almost like hip hop engine. You know, there's something so rhythmic about so many of those tunes and so it's interesting

to watch everyone like critically define themselves even when they're not on camera like they thought they weren't on camera in that flowerpot scene right but they're so definitional in real time it's like they i it's it seems silly to be praise people for being themselves but it it is revelatory when you have this huge relationship with these artists i don't i i don't even know like where to take a conversation about this it's just it it feels impressive to me when the archetype can be simultaneously confirmed and somewhat uh upended at the same time i mean this is a gratifying experience as a fan on multiple levels and I think like it you know I'm curious we can talk about is this like the ultimate example of a fan service because it is not only is it just like eight super indulgent hours for people who are willing to sit down and do that

and you have to like you have to buy in a lot to watch this you have to know a lot uh you and I were talking this weekend about trying to imagine anyone under the age of like 25 or 21 even even watching this because there is so much pre-knowledge that you have to have not just about the music but about like the history and the preconceived notions of this band and who all of these people are. So it's definitely for fans, but you know, as, as you know, more than I do, not all fan service is always this gratifying. And there is something about this idea that they both are who we thought that they were. It really like, it confirms the four archetypes, but also complicates them and confirms ultimately this larger ideal that they were,

they became the Beatles because they're larger than the sum of their parts, even though the parts are incredible on their own. And so you get to watch that magic happen and you feel validated in all of the weird amount of time that we've spent thinking and arguing about these people and are you a paul person or a john person and you know like who who did what and and should they have hired this person at this time um this this documentary understands that and actually rewards that is that a healthy impulse to reward not totally sure do i care no i don't loved it let's talk about some little bitty stuff um i almost passed out when i saw the band performing the theme from the third man the harry i thought

of you i was like this is really this is when sean is was that known that they i didn't know that anton caris score that they played it i mean that's the other thing is you you learn in this film you mentioned that the chuck berry songs and the Elvis songs, obviously it's well known that they had this massive affection for the roots of rock and roll, that they worshiped Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry and Little Richard. And they've talked about this ad. Paul is talking about this probably right now to somebody. He goes on and on about this stuff. So it's fun to watch them singing those songs and singing Wake Up Little Susie. But it's also amazing to watch the how expansive their taste is and how they're they're of course they're the beatles of course they're genius musicians but it just feels

like they're picking up guitars and just to kind of loosen up they're just playing some of the greatest songs of all time in perfect pitch and perfect harmony and it's like i know i know they're the beatles but still it's so cool to watch them just like casually be the beatles not even when writing a song just playing their guitars i I loved all those little things were there little things like that that you liked in the film too oh yeah no there was a whole list of them I mean obviously the Paul get back moment which has now been like isolated and memed into you know to to legendary history and then the Paul and John kind of writing the get back verses and just the banter. There's a lot of good banter also in this.

Like these guys are mad at each other and in like major life defining moments of their career and their personal lives and have a lot going on. And they're also just like the witty Beatles that we loved in interviews for years. They're just very funny. Even if Peter Sellers doesn't think so. That's a great moment when Peter Sellers shows up because he's there for like two minutes and it's like, thanks. And I'll see you later. And just like bounce. He's so disengaged. It's incredible. But also like, you know, a testament to kind of how impenetrable the, like the foursome and their

energy is that even like the great Peter Sellers is like no thanks this is not for me but one thing we also haven't mentioned just the fact that this whole session the deadline everything is bookended by ringo's commitment to go star in the magic christian which is just really special and just a classic ringo i mean it it also indicates like where his interests and career is going like Ringo goes on to be more sort of a movie star in the aftermath of the Beatles than anything else and so everyone is kind of contributing to to its downfall in a very specific kind of way at this stage it's true there are a lot of moments involving I thought like the whole system around the beatles you know was like really fascinating and who's bringing who cups of tea and and glenn and mal you know you kind of get these like

supporting characters who you become like invested in and you can tell like who are the good guys and who are the annoying guys this is where i just say like george martin is just such a handsome man it's really well like just george martin in his impeccable suits or turtlenecks just sitting silently in the corner being like when you guys need me i will be here to fix things what a king um but then it's also just very funny how much they all hate michael lindsey hogg the director of the original. Clearly. Who, like, I mean, to his credit, got all of this footage, even if he didn't know what to do with it, and did film the rooftop performance, which is, like, pretty cool. But spends a lot of time just trying to get them to do, like, a live TV special in Libya. He has a lot of bad ideas.

A lot of bad ideas. So many bad ideas. And he is also the king of not being able to read a room. Just cannot read the room. Cannot read any of the Beatles. And so there are these amazing moments where he's like prattling on about like, do you guys want to do this at an orphanage? Does that resonate for you?

And meanwhile, like Paul is just in the background playing actual Let It Be the song for the first time. And I'm just like the background playing actual, let it be the song for the first time. And I'm just like, hello, like no one cares. That's another thing that's amazing is the number of times what is now to us like a sacred text from Abbey road or let it be just shows up in like partial unfinished form. And, you know, I'm both finding the impulse to be like, no, that's not the words. The words are supposed to be like this. But no one else cares. Everyone be like, no, that's not the words. The words are supposed to be like this. But no one else cares.

Everyone's like, sure, whatever. I need my cup of tea. I need my toast. I'm trying the Marmite today or whatever. It's kind of humbling how just lackadaisical, or not lackadaisical, but just it's run of the mill for them. It's every day. Well, there are a couple of really interesting examples of that. There's one example in which

Get Back starts out as this sort of anti-Nativist anthem, where they're sort of trying to integrate this idea about Pakistani immigrants in England at the time. And there's a line about Puerto Ricans living in America at the time. And they're trying to, you know, project this political philosophy, which obviously becomes hugely important to Lennon in the coming years onto this song, which then ultimately becomes a lot better off when they just kind of make it like sort of a joke song about weed, you know, it's, and, and that was it. That's the other thing about the band is they wrote these kind of swooning, massive, beautiful ballads. They wrote these, you know, transgressive, interesting, conceptual

deconstructions of rock and roll, but they were also just kind of goofy. And so you see a lot of the goofiness, but then you also see that moment when Paul lets Mal kind of help him choose words in the long and winding road. When he says, is it standing instead of waiting? And you're like, oh, the fact that paul would be open to that conversation and at a certain point he gets disinterested in mal's point of view but he collaborates with basically his road manager and personal assistant on writing one of his best known and best loved songs that is such an interesting window into the way that those guys work like they their receptors were still open even when they were the fucking Beatles you know I love all of those little yeah those little snippets

those little insinuations and then I think we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about uh Billy Preston coming into this movie oh god yeah because he's like a he's like a shot of adrenaline in the arm for the band and for this movie they talk about about him earlier in the film. They sort of create this like myth of him of seeing him perform with Ray Charles's band. And they're talking about jazz and the best jazz band they've seen. There's some hilarious stuff where George is trying to describe Eric Clapton's ability

to improvise as a guitar player. And John Lennon just keeps saying, but that's jazz, man. Like he's like, that's not that impressive what Eric Clapton does. Every jazz musician does it. Fast forward to when George does quit the band

and one of the suits is like, what are we going to do? And John Cold as ice is like, if he's not here by Tuesday, we'll get Clapton. Like that is brutal. What a savage Lennon could be. But anyhow,

so they sort of like, you know, they talk, they insinuate that Billy Preston is this important person. And then he's in town and he wanders into the studio and they basically trick him in real time into joining the band. And

you know, I'm like I said, I'm kind of developing this love affair with the Let It Be album. And a big part of that is because holy shit, imagine if the Beatles had stayed together and made more songs with Billy Preston. I mean, he is exactly what they need at this time. He lifts half of the songs on the album. And he obviously also just seems like a wonderful guy.

He's got a smile on his face the whole time. He too is experiencing something that I think we're experiencing watching this movie where he's like, wow, I'm with the Beatles. I'm in the studio with the Beatles. This is fucking cool, man. What did you think of the whole Preston exchange? Let me give one more note to Michael Lindsay Hogg which is like you had 10 cameras on the roof and you couldn't get one on Billy Preston for his solos it's so bad and so frustrating and they have every angle and

I keep waiting to cut to Billy Preston and just was not there um I totally agree with you because he is as you say in part two especially especially when they finally move from the Twickenham TV studios to the Apple Studios HQ, which I'd love to talk about that for a second. And Billy Preston shows up and there just is this real surge of energy and camaraderie. And then they can't even get him in the final documentary. That's a miss. That's a tough one. I understand that the Beatles

were on dire financial straits at this point in their lives, but just their inability to have like basic recording equipment and tape and Paul only has two bases. I mean, you just really want to yell you're the Beatles a lot. Like, could someone get it together?

Mal, like, could you make some calls? Like, what are we doing? As someone who's been recording from home for two years, you know, despite working for a massive technology company, yeah, it's relatable. It totally is.

But it's like, it keeps going on and on and they are like so mad every day. And it's like, you're the Beatles. Like, someone must have something that they can set up for you. It's kind of amazing the way that something that feels so powerful and so profitable is also so fragile you know and that's i think that's ultimately the takeaway of this is when they're at their best when john is switched on when they get on the rooftop when they're performing which it's amusing to see how quizzical

the rest of england is responding to this performance. Most people are like, this is either, Oh, this is nice that they're doing that. Or these guys need to shut up and get off the roof so that I can go back to my day job. But Paul's reaction, by the way, when they, the cops actually do show up on the roof and Paul just does like a quick

over the shoulder and looks so delighted and just like, and then like goes back in to get back for like the 45th time. He's just like, I'm going to do this. It's really good it's really great he knows that no one can hurt him um the only person that can hurt him is himself unfortunately uh this is just a this is a a remarkable thing and i agree with what you said which is that if you are a true blue beatles fan it will be it'll it'll change your weekend for sure and you do have to devote an entire weekend to it because it's a lot of material but But even if you're not, even if you're just curious about what it's like to be in a band or what it's like to write a song, I think that

this movie has a lot for you. It really shows you, you may not click in as much if you don't care about the song Get Back or if you don't care about Maxwell's Silver Hammer, but if you do, it's, this is one of the greatest it's one of the greatest things i've ever seen one of the greatest music documentaries of all time instantaneously um it's just a real it's a real treasure to me i think also if you're some if you're not on the level that sean and i are which is understandable though i i mean we're not alone in this i feel like half the world this is beatles crazy as we are it's like one of like four things left where we're not special like oh yeah the beatles but i do think their

first two hours have enough in terms of like creative tension and interpersonal dynamics that you can get a feel for it and then if you want three more hours of them just you know doing ventriloquism on their own songs you can keep watching the rest and it is very exciting so i bet it could almost be like parceled out depending on your level of investment but it's man it's astonishing what a gift it is a gift so this had me thinking about my favorite beatles albums and you know beatles albums even more so than some of the movie lists we do on this show is an ever-evolving document and And I feel let it be rising in the rankings. We did top five Beatles songs, I believe,

pinned to our conversation about the Danny Boyle movie yesterday. Right. And you were like, I don't really care about the song yesterday. And I thought about that last night. I was falling asleep and I got really angry again. I love the idea of you getting angry at me when I'm not even near you.

That's just a, it's very impressive. Terrible opinion. You know, it's really bad because we set up, we made those lists. I don't even remember totally what mine was. I sort of do,

but we made those lists and not, you know, we set out that like, Hey Jude and yesterday and all of like the absolute like stone cold classics are not on our list because that's sort of obvious. And you were, and then you just, for no reason, we're were like but yesterday would not be on any of my lists and i don't remember saying that but that's true i remember it just give me your list give me your

top five where are you at right now this is i don't know this is this morning i started do you want me to just do all five yeah just do it do it. I'm going five rubber soul for Abbey road, three revolver to please, please me come at me and a white album at number one. So I'm pretty close to that. Yeah, I'm pretty close. I, I, I think I'm going to flip. I think I'm going to flip, let it be an Abbey road right now. And I'm going to do it.

That's intense recency bias, but that's okay. Because some of it is about when you experience these things in your life and the associations. When I listen to Abbey Road, I feel a band trying to be important. And I don't feel that at all in Let It Be. And at this stage in my life, I like the like, um, you know, dig it or, uh, dig a pony that are now like more fun for me to listen to than half of the songs on Abbey road. Part of it is the problem here is that when you listen to the 300 Beatles songs over and

over and over and over and over and over and over again, you get distorted in your taste, but I'll go, let it be number five revolver. Number four, please, please me. Number three, you seemed happy that I was willing to recognize this as well yeah sergeant peppers number two and the white album at number one the white you know what's good is the white album white album that's is amazing that's the one that has everything that has everything for every fan it has every kind of song it has the progression of the of the group it has back to basic songs it has curious experiments it is i listened to it again last

night and i was like good lord it's iconic that's also that was one that was given to me for my 18th birthday and i was just like and i had spent a lot of years kind of in the please please me hard days night realm which is still one of my favorite Beatles realms. And also kind of how I got into the Beatles. You know, we did this whole podcast without mentioning the Beatles anthology, which was another Beatles docuseries event that ran over Thanksgiving weekend or right around Thanksgiving. Because I remember watching it at my grandparents' house for Thanksgiving when you were 13 years old and I was 11 years old and it just absolutely changed both of our, you know, music listening and I guess movie watching lives. And, but you know, I was 11. So I got into the, the, the poppy stuff, uh, which to me is

still some of the purest examples of pop music to, I mean, please, please me is just filled with starts with, I saw her standing there, which I think was my number one Beatles song. When I, when I did our list,

I don't know, but listen, at some point when they're just doing woo and shaking their head, it's really, it's 11 year old man is back. And then, and it also has a, do you want to know a secret? I believe, which is, was on both of our lists. Um, yeah, a deep cut. That's not really a deep cut, but so I listened to all of that stuff as a young person.

And that's how I became aware of the Beatles and kind of early Beatles lore. And then you grow up and you get given the white album and you're like, you kind of get to go on the same journey that they went through. Um, and, and it, and as you say, it has something for everybody. I think please,

please me is the one that has the most killer, the least filler out of all of those early records. It doesn't have, it has, I think five covers, maybe six covers out of the 14 songs, but they're beautifully chosen, including the greatest cover

in all of rock and roll history twist and shout yeah yeah yeah pretty damn good and also there's a great little connection here counting respect as a cover which i don't i think aretha just reinvented it but anyway that's that's a perhaps another podcast for another time um but it also has a taste of honey which we learn in the movie is what billy preston loved to ask the beatles to play before they reunite and there's a nice little bit of synchronicity there also please please me is 32 minutes long and features 14 songs that's just incredible that in these compact little environments they're able to make such amazing music um i don't we could we could go on and on and maybe at some point in the future we will go

on and on about the beatles because there's so much more to say. If you have not watched Get Back, full-throated, deep-seated recommendation, this thing is amazing. I'm sad that it's over now because for like three or four days, I felt like I was in the Beatles, you know? And now I don't get to spend time with my friends anymore at the end of the day. You're in the Beatles version of podcasting here on the big picture amanda could there be a more killer foursome than me and you and bobby wagner and chris ryan there could be actually there and then that becomes who's who which is like a really like intense we don't need to go down that road you can you and i can slash each other's throats for the throne of

paul okay great cr cr is ringo obviously no question about it. Okay, Amanda, thank you. Let's now go to my conversation with a woman named Penny Lane, of all names. Hi, Penny Lane. I'm so glad you're here. Yay. Thanks for having me. Penny, let's start with a very simple and yet not obvious question. Why Kenny G for film? Well, okay. First of all, like I truly try to make, only make films that like only I would make. That's actually really important to me. And so when Bill asked me to pitch him ideas

for this music documentary series that he's putting together for HBO, at first I was like, I don't know. Like I just, I never watched music documentaries. Like I never imagined that I would make one, but I liked the prompt. Like, okay, so what if you had to make one? You know, what would you do? And I really liked Bill and I wanted make one. But I liked the prompt, like, okay, so what if you had to make one? You know, what would you do? And I really liked Bill and I wanted the job. So I was like,

I gotta think of something. And so it had really two starting points. One came from my 12 plus years experience teaching art to undergraduates. And in that context, I taught studio art and filmmaking, and I would always have these conversations with my students where I would say, okay, on the one hand, there are no objective criteria to judge art. There just aren't. Like, there are criteria, and here they all are, and let's talk about them. But at the bottom of all those categories is just an opinion. It's just subjective, which doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It's just important to acknowledge that. But on the other hand, I will be grading you. So like just kind of acknowledging that like

despite the subjectivity of people's taste in art and opinions about art, there are people in this society who have power to make decisions about what is good and what is bad. And it's not everyday people, it's particular people. In that case, it was your teacher. But another case, it might be a critic or programmer for a film festival or something else. So I always thought that was an unresolved contradiction in my mind that I thought would be interesting to explore. And on the other hand, I had the other starting point of thinking about music and just how specific it is. It's such a specific art form

that functions in our lives like nothing else. And it sounds like a platitude, but the more you think about it, the more true it is. Like maybe you love the paintings of Vermeer or the films of Spielberg or like the novels of Tony Morrison, maybe you love them so much, but they're probably not like central to your identity socially. Like you can't dress like a Tony Morrison head, you know what I mean?

There's no like kind of outward way to signal you're a fan of Steven Spielberg other than maybe a t-shirt every once in a while. But if you like love goth music, like you can like put that identity on and like have that be like the first thing people know about you in a way. And so there's something about music that like really is tied to our sense of identity personally and socially that I thought was special. So those two ideas were my starting points. And honestly, from there, it's like obvious that that would be about Kenny G. It's obvious to me because I'm a child of the 90s. And at that time, he was like just ubiquitous, like everywhere you went, you may remember. I was there.

Yeah. And my kind of punk rock friends like couldn't have hated that more. You know what I mean? And I never cared that much. And I kind of thought it was funny how angry people would get about something so inoffensive. But at the same time, I knew that he would be a good like case study with those ideas. Had you listened to a record? Like when you were preparing to pitch the concept, did you dive into his world and his music at all? Or did you just think this is kind of the perfect vessel for the concept that I want to pitch? Way more the latter. Like I didn't really think much about him as a person. I didn't really think about the music in any deep way. I was like, oh, I'm interested in

how other people react to it. So, you know, I had the kind of like fans versus critics idea in my head. Right. But it wasn't until I met him and got to know him as a person and as an artist that like the film really changed in a really good way. Because then I realized, yeah, this is art being made by a human being. And there are decisions being made by somebody. And it's not like some record company. It's like an artist, you know, and that totally opened up the whole film for me in a really cool way. Did you have any fear? I'll ask you about fear a few times here, but did you have any fear about that first conversation with him when you made contact and said, I want you to be the vessel for my exploration of these ideas? Like how much bad music? Yeah. And also just that art, you know,

sort of fans versus criticism and critical reception of an artist, you know, he seems like a very savvy and self-aware person, but in some respects, like you're sort of using him to explore something a little bit deeper. Did he identify that? Did he locate that when you talked? Yeah. I mean, okay. So I had done enough homework to, to know that he didn't care. Like this wasn't going to like make him mad or upset. Like he's just a very chill guy in a way. Like he's also very high strung, but also very chill. And so I knew this wouldn't bother him so that maybe he'd say no, but it wouldn't hurt his feelings. And like, I wouldn't have done it if I had thought it was going to like hurt his feelings, you know?

So I knew that. And yeah, I thought he might say, I didn't know if he'd say yes. And in fact, I remember when I pitched Bill, I said, this is kind of access independent. Like we might be able to make this film without him. Like maybe it's about other people talking about Kenny G and I could see a good film there too, but I knew it would be better with him. And I was, so I just, when I talked to him about it, I tried to just relate to him as an artist, like, you know, artist to artist kind of. And I said that when I was in graduate school getting my like master's in fine arts, you know, I was taught that, you know, the more popular and enjoyable art is, the more suspect and, you know, probably bad it is. And I hated, oh, I hated that. Like I was very rebellious against that idea from the

beginning. And probably my entire career has been about like proving them wrong, even though it's like an imaginary argument. I've always wanted to prove them wrong, like that you could make deep and rigorous and like, you know, kind of sophisticated art that people actually enjoy for me has always been a guiding force. And so I think he really appreciated that, like that I was kind of thinking about it from that point of view. There's been this wave over the last 10, 15 years, culturally, kind of reflecting what you're saying, like this poptimist point of view that just because it's popular doesn't mean, and just

because it's kind of mechanized by the system, doesn't make it bad, doesn't make it invalid. Did you sense that Kenny was aware of the culture changing in that way? No, I don't think so. He's not paying attention to the culture at all. He has no idea what you're talking about right now if you were listening to me. I know what you mean. I know what poptimism means, but no, I don't think Kenny has any idea. So he agrees to participate. Yeah. Where do you go? Do you start casting for the rest of the voices in the film? Do you start spending time with him immediately? How do you attack? Both. So, yeah. So the casting of the critics was so crucial. Um, it was so crucial

because again, if you're, if you're making a film about a famous musician, typically your first go to is like, who's written the biographies, you know? And like, Kenny doesn't have that. So I had to find critics who I knew would be like playful and wouldn't be offended. I mean, I think there were people who were like offended, like, you know, you want me to talk about Kenny G, like, why would you think I would stoop to that or something? So I had to find people that were playful and I had to find people that would hit different aspects of it. You know, like the kind of class angle, the race angle, the kind of like jazz angle. And so I had to find, I didn't want to interview a hundred people. It's another kind of stylistic thing that I don't like about music documentaries. I really don't like it when I see like a hundred people interviewed and then they're all there for

10 seconds. Like it just makes me like, yeah, I get it. These are famous people, but like, why would you set up cameras and lights to like get a 10 second soundbite from that person? So I really wanted to have few people and go deep with them. So the casting took probably a year to figure out who to, who to bring into that room. Did you have a central figure who helped you kind of identify? Because like I spent the first 10 years of my career as like a rock critic and editor. That was what I did mostly at hip hop magazines. But most of the people I saw in the film,

I know their work really well. I know Jason King's work. I edited Jason King. Oh, cool. I know Ben Ratliff very well. Their voices come to life. How do you know that that person is going to be good on camera? How do you know that someone like that is kind of going to be a star?

I mean, those critics are as much stars in some ways as Kenny is in the film. Yeah, they were all great. Well, I mean, we are lucky because we live in the era we live in. All of those people have done at least a few talks on something on YouTube. Like I watched Ben Ratliff talk about his books. And Jason has done lots of academic conferences. I could watch his conference papers. So I think I had a sense of almost all of them, what they would be like on camera before I put them on camera, which is a very lucky thing that we get to do in the modern era. Did you have to cue them up? Like, were they concerned about being too harsh in some ways, like knowing the kind of film?

Or was everyone just ready to unfurl their takes? They had varying approaches to that, I think. Some of them were more, I think, self-conscious about seeming to be mean on camera. And as you said, I mean, it's worth saying this because like when you say like, oh, there's kind of this poptimist movement in the world of criticism, it's so ascendant that at this point, it's almost too far. And people feel that they're not allowed to criticize things that are popular. So I think that there is that sense,

like in the era, which is so different. Like when I was looking at the period criticism of Kenny, like from the 90s, it was so striking. It was like mean, like mean and snobby in a way that people don't do that now. Like that's not normal for a sort of mainstream critic to talk the way they talked about Kenny in the nineties. Like, cause you, I don't know, you have a better sense now that like, you're talking about like people who like got married to this music or something, you know? And like, it's harder to justify that kind of meanness now.

Were you identifying any of those things to some of the critics or other folks that you spoke to for the film saying like, you know, I have seen over the last 20, 30 years that Kenny has come to be this hugely emotionally resonant figure in their lives. Does that make you think about the work that you're doing, analyzing and thinking about the work that he's making? Did they reflect on that at all? I think so.

I think it came up in a lot of different ways with them. I mean, but again, I went deep with everybody. So those interviews were four or five hours long. Like we were in a room together all day and listening to music. And listening to music was a huge part of how we, we didn't use that much of it in the film, but like those moments of just listening to the music together and just talking about music was really good level setting because it loosens you up. It like gets you into like, oh, right. This is about like that. This is not this kind of abstract idea. And watching them have to grapple with the music was, I think, really,

really revelatory for me. Where did that concept come from to play the records for the people in real time and just shoot their reactions? It's so brilliant. Two things. Well, first I immediately had, when I was even just pitching, I was like, oh, people's faces, like people that I know. Like if I threw on songbird at a dinner party, like there was a subset of people that would like their blood pressure would like go up immediately. And you could see it. Like they're like. So I thought, so I always knew like somehow I wanted to like catch those moments. But the deeper, more elaborate version of it actually came from Ben Ratliff. Ben Ratliff had written a book called The Jazz Ear where he had done profiles of jazz musicians through listening. So he would like go to your house if you were

a jazz musician and you throw records on and like talk over the records. And I thought that was a really smart and cool book. And I wanted to do something like that. So those were the ideas that put together to do that. Tell me about spending time with Kenny. Kenny is very successful. Yes. Seemingly very wealthy. Yes. It seems like he has a bit of a compound Yeah, you know, did you have to say like I want to get inside of your world? I want to be in your house. Did you have to ask for that kind of access from him? No, kenny was like 100 generous and giving and whatever you need whatever you need from the beginning. He never said no to anything

um, so no, it was never, he never said no to anything except maybe once. But then once I explained why we wanted it, he was like, oh, I get it. Yeah, I got it. So like, as long as he felt like there was a justification for it. No, I mean, he was happy. He welcomed us into his home. We could have spent, I think I estimated to him at the beginning, he said, how many days do you think we'll be shooting? And I wanted to be very overestimating. So I think I said 25 or something. And it was really only 10. So I think he felt like it was like no big deal in the end. So he was only 10 because literally every minute was usable because he was so good on camera. Like, I mean, everything we shot was good. Like there was no bad days. Well, you've captured this performative needling sense of desire to succeed in him. That is so

fascinating. I mean, just generally, why do you think he wanted to do this? Why do you think he felt comfortable with it? I have no idea, honestly. I mean, he's just said in the past, when other people ask him that he said something along the lines of he liked me like we met and we trusted each other which is true I sensed that I could trust him and that he was like pretty sincere um and I think he felt the same about me and I do think that's probably the main reason I mean maybe if I had been a different person he would have said no um but I think also in a more calculated businessman sense I mean, maybe if I had been a different person, he would have said no. But I think also in a more calculated businessman sense, I mean, he's aware that attention is good. And even if it was negative attention, I think he'd think that was probably good for his career.

One thing I've been trying to identify since seeing the film a few times is, is there any percentage of him that is kind of cynical or strategic in some way, because he does seem very at peace with his persona and the way he's seen in the world, both positively and negatively. But also, he has very savvily arranged an album release to coincide with the release of this film, you know, and he takes the hits with a smile on his face. And there's something very unique about that kind of public persona. Most famous people, most successful people are actually more thin-skinned, I find, than less. Right.

And they have to build like a whole armature around them of people to like take those blows for him. Yeah, that's a really astute observation. He didn't have, I assumed going into this, it's my first time making a movie about a celebrity. I've always avoided that. So I always thought that sounded like such a drag, like, oh, you got to deal with all these people. You know, there were no people like it was just me and Kenny. That is remarkable. It is remarkable because it's not like he couldn't have people between us. He just didn't do it that way, which I really appreciated. I don't know. I would say calculated. Yes. Cynical. No,

I think they're different things. You know, I think he's sincere. I don't know. I would say calculated, yes. Cynical, no. I think they're different things the fact that he's one of the first 10 investors in Starbucks. You unearth that he's a decorated pilot. You unearth that he is a world-class golfer. I guess how much of these things did you know before entering the world and how many of these things were sort of revealed to you once he said, yeah, come into my house, check out all my trophies? It was like I knew a little bit about all those things. Um, but what I didn't understand was how it all tied together and like how it all kind of like feeds back into like his driving desire to, as he said at the Q and a, at the premiere last night, he said, he's trying to be like more sane about it and say he wants to do his best at all

times his best but really when he's not thinking about it and he's not being vigilant he'll say the best I mean he really wants to be the best and he doesn't do things that he's not good at like he said in the film everything I've tried to get good at I've gotten good at which like rubs so many people the wrong way but it's just a statement he's not trying he's not doing a lot of things he's only doing the things that he thinks he can be great at and then really being disciplined about being great at those things. And you get the sense that it didn't have to be music. It could have been something else. If he hadn't happened to have a jazz teacher in high school who led the jazz group in that high school to this national championships.

I suspect there would be no Kenny G. Okay. Let me ask you a somewhat complicated question. A friend of mine came to the premiere last night and he turned to me after the film was over and he said, Kenny is in the same league as Mark Zuckerberg. Only Mark Zuckerberg trained that ethic that you're describing on something potentially more destructive to people's lives. Sure. Do you sense that Kenny just chose a lane that was fairly safe and that because, as you say, he would have succeeded in any world, he could have had a completely different lifestyle? Or was he touched some way musically? Because that's how we tell ourselves stories about musicians is that they have some ordained gift.

I know. So how do you kind of negotiate those things? We can only take him at his word, okay? Yeah. So the first question I asked him in the interview, when we sat down to do that master interview, which is the first question I asked him in the film is, what do you love about music? And his answer was, he doesn't know if he loves music that much. So, I mean, I'm not, I'm just giving you the answer. I'm just giving you the answer that he gave me. And so I don't, he doesn't talk about music that way. He doesn't talk about it as like a,

it touched me and, you know, and these are the moments. I mean, he just like, you know, sort of fell into it in a way and then was good at it and kept doing it. Yeah, at times you can almost see him as like the world's greatest jackhammerer. You know, it's like, it's, there is something kind of literally instrumental about what he's doing with his life, right? Yes, there is. Yes, and I like that you used the word instrumental because he knows that and he wants to make music that's useful to people. And I think that's how he thinks about art, right? Meaning like relaxing or romantic and like it's utilitarian. 100%. And I think that's the secret to his success in many ways. Again, music, there's so many different

reasons we like music in our lives and much of it is utilitarian. You do want to relax after work or you do want to have something to listen to when you have sex, I guess. Some people. And so I think he is like quite aware, even with the song titles, that he's kind of making music to be used for something. And I think that's just how he thinks about art. And I think most people think about art that way most of the time. Like that's what the thing is. The thing that makes him weird to us is that there are no ideas there. There's just, I want it to sound beautiful. I want it to make people feel nice. And is it like technically skillful? Those are the three ideas. There are literally no other ideas. I mean, I spent many, many dozens of hours with him in the studio and, you know, that seems weird to us because

we're like, but art is so much more. But in reality, that's pretty much what most people want most of the time. So that thing that makes him seem weird to us is what makes him completely normal. I mean, at the end of the film, he's talking about how he's trying to write compositions in a different way and inspired by the jazz greats, as he says. And he says something like, well, when I do it this way, the way the jazz greats would, it sounds less normal. And I was like, that's the word. You know, many of my students would say to me, like, why are you showing me such weird art? When are you going to show us normal art? And I was like, what is normal art? Like, I have no idea what that means. But I feel like that's what it is. It's like, does it make

you feel good? Is it pretty? And like, is it a skillful demonstration of like something hard to do? So how does his philosophy wash with yours as a filmmaker? Do you identify with things he's saying? Is it the opposite? It's like a different planet. It's like we're on different planets. So no, I don't identify with it at all. At all.

There's no neuroses. Like I feel like everyone else is driven by their neuroses. You've got something to prove or like, you know, you're in an argument with somebody, even if only in your own head. And he's just like doing his thing kind of all on his own in a way. There's no conversation. He's not in conversation with anybody. So I will suggest though that both Hail Satan, your last film and this film have a kind of pleasant aura. They're very entertaining. They're very funny. They're obviously interrogating some big ideas,

but they go down kind of easy. Right. Well, that's what I said earlier. I mean, I want that. So my whole goal is to sort of challenge people, but also give them fun. And like, cause that's just what I want in my life. Like, it's not like a kind of, you know, everyone should be doing that kind of thing. It's just what drives me. I want to be challenged. I want to have my ideas, you know, kind of questioned, but it's just more fun to do it with a smile on your face.

Like when you laugh, you like open up and you're more willing, I think to challenge yourself and have, you know, be provoked. And so that provocation for me is, has to be paired with like fun, you know? So that's not how Kenny's thinking about it.

There's no provocation side of it. Right. It's like the opposite of provocation. But he knows how it, like you pointed out that sort of the jazz grades intermingling and the work that he's doing with Stan Getz's notes and his new music. Yes. Which is very ethically complex. Yeah.

And he knows that. And he knows that he's going to take shit for it. He knows there's going to be some blowback for it. So he is, he's not trying to, it seems like he sincerely believes that he is in pursuit of something honest and artistic. Yeah. But also he's like, I know you're going to hate this. Oh, yeah. He knows he's going to get attention for it.

I think he learned that from the Louis Armstrong duet. I don't think he did that with any sense that that was going to be offensive to people. But I think probably now, I mean, I don't want to speak for him, but, you know, you look back and you're like, that was a lot of press. Right. That got a lot of attention. Yeah. So on some level, I do sense that he is trying to do that, but he's not doing it with the art. It's just like, you know what I mean? Like the song itself is kind of weird performance art. Like it is kind of weird and provocative. So actually I take it back. That song, both my producer, Gabriel and I were like, okay, there's like an idea here that he is executing. That's kind of weird. And maybe he's not doing it the way that I would or something, but it felt like it did feel more, I don't even know what word to use. I'd say provocative, like knowingly provocative. So

he's not incapable of doing that. In addition to exploring the ideas that you set out to figure out about good art, bad art, objectivity, and create a portrait of Kenny, you have to do a lot of other stuff in the film. You basically have to create a pocket history of smooth jazz. Yes. Did you know you were going to have to do that at the outset? Yes. And it was hard and it was hard. We didn't do enough.

I mean, if anything, I feel like with all my films, I never feel like we've done enough on anything, which is fine because I want people to like walk out of the theater or like turn off the broadcast and have a lot more to think about. So I'd rather lay out a wonderful feast and let people pick and choose from it than try to be exhaustive. But that said, oh man, there's so much more to say about smooth jazz and like how it was tied in with CD technology, which I didn't know. Like there was like these smooth jazz labels that were like the first labels to put everything out on CD. So this like kind of

the digitalness of it was like really central. And it was to Kenny too, and that sound that he made, it was all tied up in this kind of smoothness, like this- Yeah, it's crystalline, yeah. Yes, the perfection, this kind of like promise of like these clean edges that were, you know, sort of shiny. And the CDs themselves look like that, you know? So there's that. And then there's like this sort of radio story, which is, I mean, we gesture at it in the film, but oh my gosh, this was the biggest thing in radio.

It was the only new format that had happened in like 40 years. Like we had like a few formats and then there was this new format and it took over. Like so many stations in the country switched formats, became smooth jazz stations. And it was like this rise and fall that was super dramatic. So there's just so much more to say about smooth jazz and other artists in the field.

The film doesn't even make it clear that Pat Metheny was a big figure in smooth jazz radio, which like might have something to do with like his sort of sensitivity about what Kenny was doing. Yeah, there's a lot more to say about that. I wish we could have done more. We also didn't really get into the music as social control aspect as much as I would have liked. You know, we had the scene in China, but that's just one moment in like a long history there, you know, the Musac Corporation and all these other things. So there's a lot of more to do historically. Seek sequel? I hope so, yeah.

I mean, Ben Ratliff suggests that at some point, this concept of consent and, you know, the ease that the music presents to the listener, the sort of like willing them softly. It's one of the uses. It's one of the great uses. So interesting. So you mentioned China.

Again, another thing that I had no idea of that Kenny G's music, particularly one song, is a kind of anthem of return every day in China? all it's time to go home uh and they play it like on loop like so it's not just they play it once it'll be looped for the last like 30 to 40 minutes of the work day at school at like you know the mall at open air markets everywhere so i had read about that but it really wasn't until we sent out our field crew in china to get examples of it and i was like like, well, it can't be that. Like, it's probably like happens here and there. But then they came back with like 50 shoots, like 50 examples of this in one city in like one two day period. And I was like, oh, this is ubiquitous. And so many of my Chinese friends are like, oh, I had no idea. Like it never, again, never occurred to me to ask like, who made that? Who's the artist? Like, it's just like, you think it's made for that purpose. So fascinating.

Have you at all, because you mentioned you don't have a, you didn't have a negative connotation to Smooth Jazz, but have you been swayed? Will you listen to Kenny G voluntarily now that you've made the film? No, but my Spotify like-end playlist is like insane like it's like every other track is a kenny g song and i'm just like what has happened to my algorithm like what else is it'll never recover well like it was like so weird it was like it was bizarre the top 10 was like kenny g betty carter kenny g bonnie vare G, John Coltrane. It was like so bizarre. It was absolutely bizarre. But it just made no sense. And I'm like, is the algorithm just ignoring this

because it makes no sense? Because I haven't noticed anything different in my like Discover Weekly playlist. I haven't seen any new like smooth jazz songs or anything. The final chapters of the film are really interesting because they're about this kind of very self-knowing pursuit of relevance on Kenny's part. He realizes he has to gear up, even though he's getting older, he's in his fifties and his sixties.

He has to use modern technology. He has to use his persona to be successful. And he's pretty shameless. Oh yeah. And yet somehow still likable. Yeah. And I'm curious, like, did you also sense that he was like, this is a part of my strategy to win? Or is it a little bit more just like my people told me to do this and so I will do it. I think it's the same thing. I mean, he's the strategy to win is the thing. Like,

it's like the people told me to do it, so I'll do it. And like, I think he sees the results and he gets that it's important, but also he's never been afraid to laugh at himself like so it wasn't like he discovered irony or something like for twitter like he's he's been the butt of many jokes for really a long part of his career and he's always participated in that willingly and i don't know that psychology like i I can't explain it, but it's consistent. It's not like a newfound thing for him. It's just a newfound format for it. Can you tell me a little bit about how you presented the finished film to Kenny? Because he takes some blows in the film. There's some people who were pretty tough on him.

So what was it like? What'd you do? Well, I thought I tried to put myself in his shoes. Cause I mean, I'm an empathetic person. Um, and I thought, gosh, it must be like terror. I mean, terrifying to be the subject of a documentary and have no idea like what they've been doing and, you know, what is going to be this experience. And so I thought about what I knew about him and he likes to prepare. He likes to know what's happening and how to prepare. It was a scene in the film where he is surprised with the demand to write on an autograph wall. Can you write an inspirational phrase here? And he totally melts down. And so he needs to be prepared. He needs to know what we're doing so he can prepare

for it and be good at it. And so I thought, well, how can I help him be like the best documentary viewer ever? And so I thought, well, I'll give him a sense of what it is. Like, so I wrote him a long email where I pretty much just described the whole movie. Like I was like, the first 10 minutes are basically this, hang in there, you might hate it, but just, it's not the whole movie. Like just, there's a journey like that people go on here. And so, you know, don't like freak out if the first 10 minutes is upsetting to you. But here's why, here's why I'm doing it. Like I'm trying to establish a conflict and here's why and da, da, da. And then this happens and then this happens. Middle act is largely about your career at Arista and you know, the third act is

about this. So I tried to tell him like everything that would let him relax and like just watch it and have some confidence that he knew what was happening. So he said that was really helpful. I think it did. I think it really helped him. Were you with him when he watched it? No, he sent him a link. I wish I could have been, but you know, pandemic. Would you have looked at him while he was trying to gauge his reactions as he was viewing it? Do you, do you care? Normally I would.

Normally that experience is an in-person experience. Like when you're showing the film to the sub, the subject for the first time, I like to be there. So he's obviously embraced the movies, appeared at premieres. He's talking about, he's,

you know, being interviewed about it. He seems like just an authentically good guy, honestly. He's such a great guy. But what if this went the other way? What if he was like, I hate it and you hurt my feelings? It would have been horrible. I would have been heartbroken, absolutely heartbroken. I don't know what else to say. I mean, it would have crushed me because it's so much responsibility, you know? Like he was so open and generous and he just gave us everything we wanted with no

argument and no complaint if he had hated it it would have it would have killed me like really um what are you doing next well i'm in post-production on a film called confessions of a good samaritan and that's a film about it's such a different topic my experience donating one of my kidneys to a stranger a couple years ago. So it's about the idea of altruistic kidney donation, people who donate kidneys to strangers, sort of history and ethics of it. Has the movie been upended at all by the bad art friend conversation? I think it's been deepened by the bad art friend. Exciting.

Upended is a good word for my life for a couple of weeks there. But yeah. Incredible. Thanks. And every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? Oh, yeah. The last great thing I saw was the Velvet Underground. Oh, it's unbelievable.

I lost my mind. I sat in the theater. The sound was really good. I saw it. You got to see it in a theater with really good stuff. If the room isn't shaking, like you're not getting it, you know? So the first time I saw it was in Lincoln Center with like in the Walter Reed Theater, which has the best sound in New York. And it was just like, you know, by it. And I was so inspired. And so I went to see it again the next day because I was like, okay, now I want to like try to understand why it had that impact on me. And I was so amazed at how, this is again, very rare in documentary.

People don't do this in documentary. There's a kind of like assumption that clarity is the most important thing, you know, like make sure people understand everything and it really is not like I realized the second time I watched it I had missed a lot of like kind of information the first time I was like oh she's his girlfriend got it like like you know what I mean like I had missed a lot of like pieces of information and it didn't matter at all because the point of it was to create this experience that was like something like the experience of maybe being there when they were doing what they were doing.

And it was just so inspiring. I'm so blown away by it. Now I'm trying to think, like, how can I take that inspiration? Like, what would be a music documentary that would allow me to focus on that? Like the experience of the music, making that the center. One thing they did that's so cool that people don't know,

I talked to the editors about this. You know, it's an hour into the movie before you hear a Velvet Underground song. That's right. An hour. Well, the first song you hear. But it's not a Velvet Underground song because what they did was they took the stems,

which people don't, it's the tracks, the individual tracks from the recordings. So you have like the drums, the drones, the guitar, whatever. And they built the whole first hour of the score out of like pieces. Like they kind of created their own compositions that felt like Velvet Underground songs, but weren't. So you were like in the Sonic universe, even when you weren't hearing their music. And that I thought was super smart.

I was like, I can take that idea. That's a concrete idea that I could try to steal. That's so clever. It's a great recommendation. I love that movie. Congratulations on listening to Kenny G. I love it. Thank you. This was really fun. Thank you to Penny Lane. Thank you, of course, to Amanda. Thank you to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. Please stay tuned to The Big Picture

because we have a little treat coming up at the end of this week. We're drafting again. Me, Amanda, and Chris Ryan are drafting, and we are drafting from holiday movies. That is the strategy. So think about your favorite holiday movies, and you'll see if

we pick your faves. See you then.