The Big Picture - The Best Movies of the Year … So Far. Plus: 15 We Missed!

Episode Date: March 30, 2026

Sean and Amanda open the show with a few movie news topics including Ryan Gosling being cast in the highly anticipated next film for the Daniels, and the Oscars' decision to leave the Dolby Theatre in Hollywood for the 2029 Academy Awards (1:19). Then, they cover 15 2026 movies they have yet to discuss on the show this year, and share their top five favorite films of the year so far (19:04). Finally, Sean is joined by BenDavid Grabinski to discuss his new film, ‘Mike & Nick & Nick & Alice,’ as well as his long and arduous journey to directing his own material, what it’s actually like to pitch your movie, and why he needs to creatively collaborate with people who genuinely love movies (1:45:52). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: BenDavid Grabinski Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan®️. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there®️.Find what you're looking for. https://www.amazon.com/firetv/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Davin. And this is the Big Picture and Conversation show about the best and the rest. On today's show, we will share our favorite movies of the year so far and run through several 2026 releases we missed in the deluge of award season. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Ben David Grabinski, the writer-director of the very fun new action comedy, Mike and Nick and Nick and Alice. Ben David is an avid cinephile and super smart writer,

and you can feel his passion for all different kinds of movies in Mike and Nick. Stick around for our conversation. I think you will really enjoy it. But first, we have some movie news to get into right after this. In this episode of The Big Picture is presented by State Farm. Sure, being an expert at movie trivia is impressive. You know, it's even more impressive? Being smart about saving money.

And a great way to do that is by saving when you choose to bundle home and auto with the State Farm personal price plan. Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Okay, Amanda. So let's be clear.

We have three-day-old movie news. Three-day-old movies. Today is Monday. We're recording on a Friday. Right. So in the event that Avengers Doomsday is pushed back to 2029, we will not know about it. But we do know that Jumangi 3 has been pushed back to Christmas, 26. I tell you that and you say what?

Yay. I say big screens for Doomsday, Gray. I say I had, I would say that I, Amanda Dobbins, a professional film podcaster of sorts. Now at this point have too much information about how many large format screens Doomsday may or may not be eligible for. Put a little context around it. Avengers Doomsday is coming out the same day as Dune Part 3. We talked about it last week on the show. And we were like, this is weird.

How's this going to work? It doesn't really make a lot of sense. But these two very similar movies. And of course, Jumanji moved off of December 11th to Christmas. So now it seems like Doomsday can move up to December 11th and maybe get some IMAX screens in the process to make more money for them. We were talking about who's going to blink? Who move first?

Yeah. This would be certainly a blinking and a moving first for Doomsday. However, probably a smart move for them. However, I kind of feel like Dune's Day is just more fun and cooler. Like, I just think it would be more of an interesting movie event weekend. People are very angry that you tried to coin Dune's Day. I did coin it because I put the three where the E is supposed to go. Great.

Because we learned that the movie is called Dune Part 3. A lot of people like, Dune's Day exists, bro. No, not Dune's Day with the three. Okay, everyone. So just simmer down. Yeah, I'd love to market. I'd love to be part of marketing. It seems like they will move.

That's what we speculated, right? That it is Dune 3 and Warner Brothers in the position of strength here and that it would probably. And they also, it is Dune 3, Dune Part 3, excuse me, Dune 3's Day. Just Dune's Day? Dune's Day. But just that three is doing a lot of work? Backwards E. I know.

It looks like my son tracing right now. We're having some similar issues with inverted shapes on our letters. But they already had the screens tied up for two weeks. So it was written in the ink of IMAX that Dune had the upper hand. So it does seem like they'll blink. This is useful for me because now I know the holiday party is going to be December 12th. Okay. We can all talk about Doomsday at the holiday party.

No, no, no, no. That would just be, oh, we can talk about Doomsday, not Doomsday. Correct. You're really going to have to work on your enunciation. Doomsday. Yeah. I will have seen it, I guess, and hopefully have recorded the podcast that I'm contractually obligated to record so that I can get quite drunk at my own holiday party. Yeah.

You know, this is like a stupid story, but it is kind of interesting to me because what date your movie lands on is pretty consequential right now. For example, you know, we're heading into week two, weekend two of Project Hail Mary, which is reportedly tracking to make like $50 million this weekend, which would be a crazy hold. And that is great for a lot of reasons. And you know what? When we saw that preview of that movie back in April of 2025, I was like, God, this is a long time to wait for this movie. Turns out they picked a really good weekend to release a big event movie when there wasn't a lot going on against it the first weekend or the second. So this stuff is actually consequential to the business. I mean, it's about resources.

It is about access to IMA screens and to big format because there are a limited number of them. And people are locking them up a year and two years and three years in advance. Yeah. And I said on Monday in the intro to the Spielberg episode that Hail Mary, I think 54% of its box office came from large format screens, that this is just kind of where the movie business went. Yeah. And if you don't have a movie that costs $200 million that is able to access those screens, you're going to take a hit financially. So anyway, I thought we would put a little pin in that one. Speaking of pins, let's pull the pin out of the murder she wrote grenade.

Okay. Murder she wrote is my wife's favorite television show. know that. My wife adores Angela Lansbury. And when things are low in our house, you can rest assured that she will be firing up murder she wrote to come back to her special happy

place. So it was announced this week that there will be a murder she wrote movie starring Jamie Lee Curtis. Jamie Lee Curtis just came up on the 1980 movie draft. You had some sharp words for her. I'm maxed out. That's all it is. She has been overexposed, like four times now. You know,

we're on the fifth Curtis on. And my opinion doesn't even matter. How does Eileen your wife feel about this? We haven't even spoken about it yet. What? I know. It's just been a busy week. Okay.

We haven't gotten into it. I'm going to run up by her. I don't know if she has any JLC feelings. Okay. Can you text her right now? Would she respond right now? Let's find out. Let's find out.

I mean, she's taking care of a sick kid, so I don't know, I can't. No guarantees. We love you. We love you, Alice. Get well soon. Hi, Hun. We're live on the podcast. This is very exciting.

When you're typing out, Hun, H-O-N. H-U-N. H-U-N. Oh, yeah. What do you think about that? I know, but that's okay. What do you mean? Do you think H-O-N?

Hun? Yeah, I think honey because it's short for honey. Well, what if it's short for Attila the Hun? But do you also, when you say yeah? You can't no sell the Attila of the Hun Joe. You just blew right past that. Do you, when you type out, yeah. I know how you text with me, but when you guys are texting.

Do you have different? Of course. Yeah, yeah. Of course. But do you do Y-E-A-H or do Y-A? If it were you, I would say Y-E-A-H. I know. If it were, E-A-H.

Yeah. Why is that? That's really weird. Is it? No, I mean, I guess that's normal. I don't really think that I have different texting vernacular, depending on who I'm texting. You're getting me.

I guess my parents slightly, because they are still lawyers who text and email with, like, full punctuation, like absolute psychopaths. You never feel more in trouble than when you get an email from my mother. but I do I don't really change the slang person to person but I understand why you would

but I think why AH is weird Yeah one thing about me and Eileen We've been together since 1999 Yeah no I know Like our verbal and textual Language has really We have a big A lot of history, a lot of data

How is she saved in your phone? Just Sean Oh Eileen Yeah yeah yeah yeah but no last name No no no no Yeah no no I think it's But you don't have any... Dad and Eileen are the only people that have that delineation.

I... Caught in Kyle and Kara and Grace. My siblings, my wife and my dad are the only people who know last names. My mom and dad are the only people, Zach, is obviously last name because we met as adults. You can edit that, you know. I know, but now it freaks me out. I need everybody to have the first and last name. And I made some new friends the other night and, like, we were leaving dinner.

And I was like, okay, so I'm going to need first name, last names to attach to these random phone numbers in my phone because I can't have them saved without last names. Okay. No response? I thought that was some pretty good vamping about textiles. Do Not Disturb, so I don't know if I'm going to have to keep looking. Let's keep talking. The movie's going to be directed by Jason Moore.

Kind of seems like a smart use of IP, even if you're over-indexed on Jamie Lee Curtis these days. I don't know. Again, like familiar but new. That's my whole thing. This is something we've never seen a movie version of this. Mystery movies kind of work. The Knives Out Films work. But what's, yeah, is the point of this to find a new generation of murder she wrote?

Jack and Lucas. murder she wrote, any familiarity. I mean, I'm familiar with the title. I've never seen it. It's just absolutely like, no. Okay. I'm familiar with it. You know, it was a network television show, a weekly murder mystery, who done it show.

My mother would also watch it. So I have seen a ton of it. It's very, like, cozy mystery. Angela Lansbury lives in Maine. Yes, she, and she is a mystery writer who is also a skilled detective who is called upon when there are murders. And there have been a great many murders in her small town. And is it Maine, New Hampshire?

Sure. I mean, she's doing Maine, Miss Marple. Yes. And which is also your wife's preferred mystery. Yeah. Over Poirot. But it wasn't like ironic.

It wasn't funny. The murders weren't particularly violent and you could always definitely guess by the first commercial break. Like who did it and that is fine. That's part of what's soothing about it. But so doing something like cutesy funny. I don't want it to be to the Blade Bunch movie. I think it would be actually better if they played it more straight. I do think that there's something really fun about the show to go back to,

which is that it was a launch pad, much like shows like Seinfeld, where you could spot dozens of people who would go on to be really famous actors. Or Law & Order, yes. Or, yes, that's another good example. Or it would be like an interesting place for a much older actor to come in and do a single guest shot where you find like a screen star from the 50s would come in as the killer in one episode. And that was always a lot of fun. If the movie brings that energy, I think it would be pretty cool.

But I don't know, it makes sense. Coming out on Christmas next year, just like a nice movie for... Yeah, murder she wrote up against the untitled Nancy Myers movie. Oh, wow. Christmas, 2027. That's the New Dooms Day. And then you put me on the glacier and you set me out to see. Yeah, or you just move to, I don't know, West Palm Beach probably.

Okay, more movie news. Ryan Gosling coming off of this Hail Mary success, it was announced, is teaming up with Daniels for their first feature for Universal. It will be unsurprisingly a sci-fi comedy. So this will be three straight sci-fi movies in a row for Ryan Gossiling with Project Hell Mary's Starfighter. He's Sean Levy's Star Wars film. Sure. When we're counting that as sci-fi. It is science fiction.

I guess so. Yes, it is. You're right. And this new movie. You know, you're not the biggest Daniels person in the world. I also, the Daniels' new movie has been percolating, scheduled, unscheduled, has been something else, has been something else for, for, for, for, since everything everywhere all at once, essentially. Does that raise any flags to you?

I don't know. I mean, it's been, it will have been more than five years since everything everywhere at once came out. But there was also a big gap between Swiss Army Man and everything everywhere at once. I think obviously the ideas in their movies are very ornate and complicated, and the way they like to make movies is unusual.

I don't know. I mean, I think bringing Gosling onto your movie is a good idea. It does seem to be pretty in keeping with the tone that he's pursuing. as an actor when you look at Barbie and you look at the Fall Guy and Hail Mary, you know, all of those movies have varying degrees of success. But there is

a kind of like... A winking. A jokey. Yeah. You know, jokey serious that I think is also what the Daniels do. I'm interested. I like everything everywhere all at once. I think it's now taken on a much more outsized reputation, both good and bad,

because of its best picture win. It's best picture. It's Oscar's sweep, essentially. That was pretty It ran the table that year. I like Ryan Gosling. Okay. Whatever he wants to keep doing. I mean, sure.

Yeah. You know, I do want like one really evil Nick Reffen movie in the next 10 years. You know, like one movie that's like, I know you love the place beyond the pines. Please show me. You know? So we're still in the Gosling press tour moment and then, but we're also sliding into a lot of Robert Pattinson for the drama content. which we'll talk about next week. I'm getting dots for my lien.

And they're, oh, that's exciting. And they're both giving a lot of good content. And so would Ryan Gosling and Robert Pattinson in a movie work against each other? Or is it like the center couldn't hold? That's very interesting. I mean, they're closer in age than you'd think, right? They're closer in age and they do have a sort of offbeat sensibility. Yeah, and they both like to do really weird shit.

And then they will also I mean, Patinson is never quite as broad as Gosling. Yeah, and Pattinson's 39 and Gosling is 45. I'm just putting it out there. That's interesting. I feel like we've been living with Gosling for so much longer, partially because he was a child star, a teen star, but I would be into that.

I mean, Twilight is not that much after the notebook, right? No, but it is that much after the Mickey Mouse Club. Sure. For example. And remember the Titans and all of that. that stuff. Dots, but no response? I'm waiting. I'm waiting. Okay. All right. Wow. Dots disappeared.

Oh, wow. So maybe now she's doing a lot of research. She's got to inform herself before she takes the opinion. Bated breath over here. Fortunately, we have a lot more podcast to go, so we'll see if she ever gets back to us. All right. The Oscars are moving from the Dolby Theater

in Hollywood to L.A. Live and the Peacock Theater. Yeah. This is happening in 2029. The Dolby Theater is relatively small, 3,300 seats. The Dolby, or excuse me, the Peacock Theater has about 7,000 seats. I don't really know if this is interesting news or not, because you and I don't go to the Academy Awards. Right. We probably won't go. This makes it so much more convenient for my plan next year. Okay. I hear what you're saying, but the traffic at LA Live is so much worse. So much worse. I'm going to wear you guys. down. This is a year-long project. I'm planting the seeds. But this is 2029, so it's at least three years away. Okay, three years away. I've already been put on the glacier after the Nancy Myers and the murder she wrote. And after the Beatles, too. So we're fucked. And after the Beatles. That's right. I have to come back from the glacier. Oh, okay.

Aline is waiting. Simply put, I mean, it's not murder she wrote without Angela Lansberry. Maybe I could accept a prequel kid's version of it but it's just another mystery show without her.

Okay. See, I agree. The queen has spoken. Yeah. I had that inkling as well, but maybe it's not for us. Maybe it's for a new generation. It can be a new murder,

a new murder show, I guess. What if she's like a murder podcaster? This is, like, that's what's going to happen and I want to light myself on fire at the same time. I don't want it either, but you know if they're updating it that that's what they're going to do. It's going to be insane when some hallowed figure of Hollywood history dies over the weekend

and we're opening the podcast with all this bullshit. I really hope that doesn't happen. You're not going to call in from Spring Break? We'll see. We will see. The Oscars moving, I think, you know, makes sense they want to be able to have more people at the theater. I'm sure it's a money issue in a lot of ways how much are they paying to host the show in that space.

It does make it significantly, I don't know about less special because who really gives a shit like what? theater they put the show in, but a lot of shows are done at the Peacock Theater. Like, the Grammys are there. Right. Country Music Awards are there sometime. You know, there's like a lot of stuff that just kind of goes into there. I've been to that space many times when I worked at ESPN. I worked in L.A. Live. I've spent a lot of time in that food court. Right. Which is not dissimilar to the food court that the Dolby Mall is in. You walk by the, you know, the Johnny Rockets and the Lids to get to the Dolby Theater. You do. I, I've, I've eaten in it. I've eaten in

that Tom's many a time. I've eaten at that farmhouse many a time. I've eaten in that farmhouse while coming to visit you at work when you worked at ESPN. Yes. I don't, you know, neither one is that all that glamorous, but I do think Hollywood has a little bit more of that sheen of the town to it, whereas LA Live is just... It's right next to like crypto.com arena. It's Matt Bellany suggested in his newsletter that the peacock theater would be renamed by the time. That makes sense. Which just, you know, Dolby Cinema is also a brand sponsored, or the Dolby Theater is a brand sponsored theater. At least it's connected to movies, though. Well, Peacock and Downabby, too, would have you feel differently.

But no, I agree with you. I agree. But also that these things are just, like, changing so quickly. It has a little bit of, like, Uniclo Field at a Dodder Stadium. Yes, yes. Like, we're very for sale, which they are. But I agree. It feels more.

corporate unless like the stars are out. Yeah, I think the Oscars probably has to be really conscious about this where they run the risk of just becoming a little bit more down market. They still are the absolute platinum brand of award shows acknowledging the hearts in America and moving to YouTube and changing locations and making the show bigger and hosting more people and having it downtown instead of in Hollywood. You know, they're all small kind of middling things,

but you put them all together. and then is the specialness still as special? I don't know. I'm not trying to concern troll, but I do think that there will be, there is an accumulation of things happening here that are going to be noticeable at some point. Remember when it was at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion?

I do. Also downtown, like three blocks from the Peacock Theater, but just much sheeker. Yeah, and I think part of that is just like you remember hearing live from the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion and everything felt very elevated. And we didn't live in this city at that time too. And some of it is just,

when you live in L.A., different relationship to these things. Right. You do also park for jury duty at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, so, you know, you went some and you lose some. Yeah, you still haven't had to report, right? Well, please don't speak that into existence. Okay. I had to report. I made it out. What were you? I didn't have to report to a criminal court for like a criminal trial. Yeah, okay. They'll never catch me. Tax evasion or murder she wrote, perhaps. Okay, any other news? Do you want to get off your chest? I think that's good. I mean, again, we're forecasting into the future.

So... Hopefully nothing crazy happens. We have so many movies to talk about. This was originally 10 movies we missed. And you just kept adding this.

And then it became 15 and now I think it's closer to 17. I saw three new movies yesterday. As did I. Because I've really been catching up. Yeah.

You did as well. You know, you can't say that the business might be in peril, but it is very active. There's a lot of stuff coming out. They're putting stuff out.

A lot. And maybe too much, if that makes sense, because in the world, there's streaming. there is the catch-up from the 2025 kind of festival releases that get late distribution, and then there's just kind of your general work-a-day, studio movies getting released in theaters. And so you put all three of those together, a show like this is so different than what Siskel and Iber would have done in 1995.

In 1995, you'd have four movies coming out, and that's it. You'd cover three of them with some level of oversight, and then the fourth one would be a throwaway, and then you'd be done. we're going to talk about 17 movies that have come out in the last three months. We probably could have done another 17. Like I look at my list and I'm like, well, there's a lot more here that we miss. It's impossible to be totalizing about that. And of course, you know, as a completeist, it's hard for me. Yeah, it's hard for me because I want to see it all.

We're going to talk about movies on this podcast that you have not seen, which is unusual and uncomfortable for you. But we just want to commend you on your bravery. Thank you. And trying new things. Thank you. And enjoying yourself in this new phase of your life. I intend to. Right now, as people are listening to this, you're on spring break.

Yes. Are you having a good time? Are you relaxing? If I'm doing this properly, I'm on a golf course right now when this episode comes out. All right. I can't promise that that's what's going to happen, but I have a tea time. That's beautiful. By yourself, solo tea time?

You're going to chat the people up? Are you going to put your... When you're doing solo tea time with other people? I do not listen to headphones now. I'm glad you knew that. I sit with myself. Well, I saw where you're going with that. Uh-huh.

No, no. I am, you know, I'm one with the force and the forces with me when I'm on the golf course. I really feel happy and calm. That's beautiful. I'm in a dad era and I'm appreciating that part of myself. I was born for it, so to speak, and love nature. I love the state of California. Great.

I'm very happy in the state of California, despite its many myriad problems. And I intend to be calm. How many movies I watch, I don't know. I feel like I don't have to watch very many, though, because of what we're about to embark upon here. Let's just start. Okay. I think the first and most important movie for us to discuss is reminders of him. We have been venturing on a Colleen Hoover adaptation series of discussions ever since the enormous success of it ends with us.

Was that last summer? Last August? The August before that? Oh, 2024. 2024, right. Right. It was before Cy was born. And my first podcast back was with Juliet about the Blake Lively lawsuit.

Interesting. Okay. So it ends with us. It was a huge hit. It made almost $300 million a year. Even before that film was released, Hoover had become one of the most successful novelists of her time. And they're cranking him out now.

Yeah. This is, I think, the third prominent Hoover adaptation with a fourth incoming. With Verity on the way. Yes. Verity has been pitched as the bigger and better Colleen Hoover movie, starring Anne Hathaway. This one is a little bit smaller. It is based on one of her 2022 novels.

It stars Micah Monroe, Tyreek Withers, Rudy Pankow, Lainey Wilson, the country singer in her film debut, Nicholas DuVernay, Lauren Graham, and Bradley Whitford, as parents, God, were so old. It's directed by Vanessa Caswell. The summary of the plot is as follows. Desperate to rebuild her life with the daughter she's never known, Kenna finds unexpected compassion in a secret romance

with local bar owner, Ledger. As danger develops for both of them, Kenna hopes to find a second chance amid unbearable heartbreak. What did you think of reminders of him? I just incredible new frontiers in not just baby names, but character names. Yes. I do feel that the Colleen Hoover universe teaches me about worlds that I don't have access to. Otherwise, I didn't know that there were a questionable grandparents naming their children

DM. I have to assume that it was the grandparents who gave the name. That wasn't one of the things that was addressed. It's not explored. Yeah. We know that Micah Monroe's character who is in a very nasty car crash and is convicted of manslaughter because her beloved is killed in that car crash is pregnant at the time of the car crash and she goes to prison and she gives birth in prison, waltzed in prison, or I guess in a hospital whilst in prison, and then has to give the child up. And she gives the child up to her. her boyfriends, parents. But we don't know who names the child, but the child is named DM. Yes. Now, DM, for longtime fans of the challenge, the real-world Road Rules Challenge,

know that there was a great competitor on that show called DM. So this is not the first DM I've ever encountered. But when you have the word ledger and DM as character names, you do wonder if it's like a Ipsum-Lorum or Lerom-Ipsum-Whatever thing. Or even just like, have you been hanging out at the bank too long? Like, what actually is happening? I'm on the social security name website right now.

DM not in the top 1,000 names. Okay. Kenna 750 for the last couple years, which is up a little bit. Ledger, can you guess? I can't be top 2,000. It's 502. Ledger. Ledger is by far the most popular.

It's like skyrocketing. It was 975 in 2017. Oh, my God. And 502 and 24. So. That is absolutely fascinating. I will say, Kenna,

there was a great kind of like electro hip hop artist named Kenna who I remember from the late 2000s. Yeah. Where do you think

Sean is in 2024? 461. 436. Pretty good guess. Yeah. You're on a downward trajectory for sure.

But you're like, you're pretty close to ledger, which is amazing. It's a little out of fashion. Well, after me, you know, broke the mold. That's where Amanda is. I'll say 262.

496. Wow. You're plummeting. We're out. It's the most 80s name of all time. My house, Zachary and Amanda, it's really, really tough. But it's okay. A lot of the clap.

Michael, Stephen. Yeah. You know, these names are going out. And you know what? Good. Bring a new generation of ledgers and DMs in. This movie is fascinatingly without incident. Yes.

It is barely a story. Yes. And thus, possibly the least objective. ethical ethically of the Colin Hoover films and also my least favorite, I would say. Well, so is that because of what you kind of go into these movies for? Because this movie is a straight line. And very few of her stories based on what I've seen in the film adaptations are straight lines. They're kind of consistently like pivoting backwards and hiding information from the audience and making you unsure of what's really going.

They're kind of hitchcockian in a perverse way. Yes. Where she's like hiding critical pieces of information so that there's a bit of. big surprise. And also everyone is like pretty evil to each other. Agreed. There's something ugly about it. This movie is really more of a pure melodrama. It actually kind of feels

like a Douglas Sork movie where it's like something terrible has happened and there's a woman who wants to get back to her kid. And it's just about her straight line path that the only divergence is she falls in love with her dead boyfriend's best friend who was an NFL prospect at the time of this death and has come back to

town because of an injury to become a bar owner. They fall in love. He's trying to keep that information from his dead friend's parents while they're looking after this five-year-old girl. Now, this is the movie with a five-year-old girl. Yeah. Very well-cast young actor. She's very good. Very good in the film. And just, I found it like not really emotionally connecting, but not ever evil or strange in a way that I have found these other movies. And so it kind of just flows by you. And even though it does not have any of the salaciousness of the other Colleen Hoover films. What is

even the second one? Oh, right, the Allison Williams one where... Regretting you? Regretting you. And they're having an affair and then they flashback. That film is very bad. Yeah, but like, in a silly tasteless way, that's pretty fun. When they actually do the flashback and Dave Franco is

like deaged. Yeah, 37-year-old Dave Franco is supposed to be 17. You know, you're... You chuckle. But so, reminders of him doesn't have any of that absurdity, but it is still trying to do the hide-the-ball structure. And it leads you on to what is supposed to be this major revelation that is not a revelation at all. And there's not even really any tension. It does set up the question of why are these grandparents like this, which is, it's honestly

some of the worst grandparenting I've ever seen in my entire life. It's the only, like, really weird thing in the movie where you've got, First of all, also using Lauren Graham and Bradley Whitford, who, you know, Lauren Graham, of course, we will talk about Gilmore Girls in this episode because of another film. But, you know, Bradley Whitford, known to be apoplectic as an actor from time to time. Sure. But there is, like, an intensity and weirdness in their caretaking of this child and their relationship to her mother that... It's not matched by, certainly, by Tyreek Withers as the best friend, replacement son across the way, who's also a super handsome former NFL player who's building

a home on the land that he purchased with his NFL money, but he can't ever finish the home because he doesn't want to be... I hate when I'm a business owner and a sick athlete who looks like Tyreek Withers, and I've had to step away from the game. And, you know, I could probably have any girl I want in town, but what I really need is the recently released convict who killed my best friend. It's just a huge bummer. This is a huge bummer. But you know what? She looks like Michael Monroe.

What are you going to do? What are you going to do? I did also feel that it was, I thought that this was maybe a fairish portrayal of a pretty unjust criminal justice system. Yeah. You know, but of course it's like unjust to the sad white lady. So, you know.

It does feel like a 50s movie where it's like through a series of misunderstandings, someone has been put into this terrible situation. And they're really a good person deep down. But this bad thing happened wasn't their fault. and they're screwed. It's an interesting attempted pivot by Micah Monroe, an actress that I love

that is, you know, between Chris Ryan and I, one of our girls, you know, the start of it follows and many other horror movies over the last few years. You know, had a huge hit with long legs recently, and she's attempting to get into a new lane, and I think wisely to attempt to get some of this Colleen Hoover Doe. You know, she's not quite as skilled an actor. I think some of her, like, slackness

as a performer really works in scary movie, It doesn't quite play as well here. Well, she and Tyreek Withers are on a different, like, energetic level than the grandparents. Yeah. And then also, like, then the situation around them, which I guess enables their love affair. Mm-hmm. But it doesn't match up. Tyreek Withers has instantly joined the Jock movie Hall of Fame.

Yeah. Because when you think about his burly bro, and I know what you did last summer, his first round draft pick in him last year. last year, the horror movie. And now this, he's being typecasts a little bit. Yeah, I guess so. He can pull it off. You guys spend a lot of time talking about who is not a convincing athlete and asked to play athletes in films. You buy him. Yeah. Yeah, and he generally is appealing.

He's also very speed with the little girl, so that goes a long way. They are good together. Yeah. I know that stuff that got me. Yeah, yeah. Well, sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah, girl dad.

This movie is, okay. It's like, it's like, I totally forgettable. I had forgotten it. It's fine. Again, it is like the least defensive and also the most boring of the Colleen Hoover. Yeah. Adaptations. Do you think Verity will be enough of a big deal that it warrants its own episode of this show?

I hope so. I mean, we could also do, we could do Verity and then we could do all the, like, the romance adaptations. We could do our long-threatened Nicholas Bark's episode. Oh, wow, yeah. But listen, Verity, Dakota Johnson, Anne Hathaway, Josh Hartnett, directed by Michael Schoalter. Yeah, a lot of real people involved. I hope everybody came to play. Yeah, Amazon MGM, too.

Let's go. Riding high off of the successive Project Hail Mary. Okay, let's pivot away from reminders of him. Wait, speaking of romances, Kiki and Housemade 2? Oh, I forgot to add that to the document. So you're like, you're happy about this. Like, your girl's in her slop era and you're about it. She wants to be in her slop era.

Also, the Housemaid, which is not a Colleen Hoover adaptation, but is like of that literary mold, way better than any of the movies we just mentioned. That's the most fun I've had. The Housemade is more fun. Yeah. And so I'm just hoping, and Housemade 2 with Amanda Seifred is apparently coming back, which is great for me. Amanda Seifred and Kirsten Dunst together, I say yes. We just, we need to up our game from Brandon's Clinar.

Like the next husband. It should be Ben Affleck, but he's too famous for that, but it should be Ben Affleck. Who's like 42? Who's like Kirsten Dunst's. who would be a fit for this world? I don't know how old everybody is anymore, you know? I mean, it should be like a Chris Evans type. That's the kind of person who should be going into that spot, you know?

And I feel like he could play that this material really well, rather than trying to do ghosted and be like, isn't this so funny that I'm doing a stupid movie like this? Right. Actually, like, I'm making like a schlocky erotic thriller that we can all laugh at and chew popcorn. Anyway, another movie we've both seen, I presume. Oh, yeah.

Of course. Is Paul McCartney Man on the Run? Yeah. This is Morgan Nevel's latest documentary. His first of two documentaries this year about major figures in popular culture. His next documentary is about Paul McCartney's friend, Lorne Michaels, which comes out in April. This one documents McCartney's extraordinary life following the breakup of the Beatles and how the love he shared with his wife, Linda, became his bedrock and influenced a journey that would lead to the formation of his band Wings. Mm-hmm.

Let's talk through your feelings on this, okay? Because this is your not only like your music documentary world, but like this era of Paul is really your jam. This means a lot to you. The first... I mean, not that it doesn't mean a lot to me, but this is... You're Beatles through and through. I'm Beatles through and through. You like Solo Paul.

Of course. And also like what I liked the most about this documentary was just once again seeing all the archival footage of them on the farm. looking shaggy and weird and there is something idyllic about he just goes in the woods with Linda and shuts out the world and makes this music

the way that he wants to. I respect it. I would go crazy if I had to do that but I think you would be very happy. This is what you want in life. I really think I think Ram is one of the most inspiring pieces of art of all time. I am

utterly I think Paul is a crazy person in a that I relate to and that he's like, I'm about my thing and that's it, sometimes to the point of isolationism and egotism, and sometimes to the point, not in my case, but in his case, of utter brilliance, that it creates this magic out of him that only he can tap into. And this period that this movie is focused on has been a huge kind of area of personal study for me. Yeah.

And so there's actually no way that this documentary was ever going to live up to my expectations. I just know a little bit too much about this. Yeah. And I've listened to so many interviews with Paul about this period. And, you know, the McCartney-Ram wildlife stretch and then the formation of wings. I just, I've spent a lot of time with that music and it really means a lot to me. But I think this is pretty good. I think it's definitely very watchable.

And if you are less of a psycho about Paul, I think you will learn a lot about his psychology in the aftermath of the Beatles. The movie does, I was curious how you felt about this. it attempts to engage with the Who Broke Up the Beatles and what was Paul and John's relationship like and I feel that there's been a lot of management around this over the last 20 years particularly where sort of like Yoko and Sean have worked very hard with Paul and Paul's family

to make it clear that these two people did not hate each other that even when things were challenging and they were sniping at each other when they were publicly beefing on record like literally on songs that they still were blood brothers. How do you feel the movie, like, engaged with that? What did you make of it? Like many, like most recent music documentaries,

this is made with Paul McCartney's cooperation and involvement, and he is an executive producer. So I felt the management of everything from his side slightly. Yes. And, you know, it's not, I mean, it is public record that when they finally split with, remind me the Wiley manager's name. the Allen's.

Yeah, Klein, Klein, Klein. When they are finally freed or, you know, part ways. Exactly. You know, that the archival clip of John Lennon being like, yeah, well, Paul was right is included prominently. Yes. And even when they show the clip of Paul being interviewed after John's murder, they have Sean Lennon narrating, like, his interpretation of it and trying to make it smoother and better. Yeah, Paul famously gave this, infamously gave this sort of like blank, disaffected interview

maybe a day or less than a day after Lennon was murdered. And it's a little bit of a black mark on his legacy because he just seems so unfeeling. It ends with, yeah, it's a drag. And then, thank you, walks off. I mean, it's really, really. Yeah. But I did also feel that it was fair to him, the way that Sean kind of characterized that. That it was sort of like, this is a traumatic event and that this is a person who spent his life trying to protect himself.

Right. And that in these events, you can't give people too much. Not be in front of the cameras. Totally. But for every one of those, you know, the whole Linda can't sing thing. You have him talking about his view of it. It's every, every wrinkle is met with a very pro-Paul repost, which is, I mean, that's what it says on the label. Yeah.

So what are you going to do? And this is a pro-Paul, you know, we're not anti-John, but we're. I love John. This is a Paul. Ethan Hawk is right. You know, that you can't have a favorite beetle. That it's the, you know, what they made together that is so beautiful. But I love a lot of what all of them made individually, too.

Same. And I do think there's been a lot of work to explore what John made over the last 15 years or so. That there are multiple documentaries about his work. Yeah. Around Imagine and around the albums with Yoko. And there's not as much of that with McCartney. There have been plenty of McCartney objects. for us to engage with. Remember that Rick Rubin, Hulu movie where they're sort of like just going back and listening to his songs and kind of deconstructing them? And Paul works, his world works very hard to mythologize in perpetuity. This one, I think I might have preferred a little bit more of a tighter focus on like a year or two. This is my own personal interest. Yeah. To get a little bit, to really like dig into the psychology a little bit rather than, as you say, it's almost like they're knocking pins down where they're like this year happened. This is how the band

formed, this is the other band worked. I thought it was interesting the way that they talked about how he would dispense with members and that he does have this kind of almost militaristic approach to going through the work. And that's one of the things that did clearly disrupt the Beatles, right? That Paul was like, work, work, work. And George was like, what about me? Yes. Can I hang out a little bit?

You know, like I've got some feelings. Yeah, I got some ideas. Yeah. So I think it was like, it was softened and leavened to your point. I do think I mean nobody is better than Morgan Neville just making these movies

kind of like glide by like he just his editing team and the way that these things are constructed and the way that he is able to kind of like put a little bit of a spell on the lead subject to get them to give you enough good stuff that you feel satisfied

is very rarefied error because I think they all trust him because they're partially having some handle on the material themselves but I liked it I liked it I think it If you're us, then you'll enjoy watching it.

If you are like your Beatles head, then it's very pleasant. And it really just is fun to see a lot of that old footage, which you've seen before. But it's like assembled, as you said, very slickly. And it's very watchable. It's all in one place. It's funny because on a future episode of Blank Check, you and I are featured on the new season of Blank Check. Yes. But on a future episode, like I really personally explored because of the movie that I talked about.

how appealing I find this period of Paul's life. No, I know that about you. You know, and how there's something about it that is really like calls to me. I know. So. I mean, I did. I know that this is, it means something to you.

It's part of how I understand you is that really you just like want to be with the sheep and Scotland with Eileen and Alice. But then when I was watching that infamous interview, I was like, damn, when I die, Sean's going to talk just like this about me. I was just like, this is. It's a drag bye And as I was watching No I was like

I'm such a sentimentalist Sean Lennon has some like very insightful Like psychological you know points here Because you just be like I can't deal with this Sorry it's a drag bye That's okay But privately imagine what I'll say

Exactly I know That's a very funny pivot Um okay Let's talk about two movies that I don't You didn't see either of these right No I didn't And they are inextricably linked And fascinating

So just hang with me a minute Well it's fine Yeah it's horror corn They're the two big, I would say, studio movies non-Hale Mary Division over the last two weekends. The first is Ready or Not Two, Here I Come, which is a sequel to the 2019 cult hit starring Samarrow Weaving. And the other is They Will Kill You, which I just saw last night, which is directed by Kirill Sokolov, which is a new Warner Brothers horror action movie starring Zazzi Beats. These two movies are linked because they are the same movie. They are fascinatingly, almost exactly the same in terms of what their plot.

is one of them is the sequel, of course, but the sequel kind of expands its world to show that Samarra Weaving, whose character in the first film, was hunted by her in-laws on the night of her wedding because her in-laws were Satanists who were participating in a cult

in which... Happens to the best of us. I mean, you know, the part of the reason that first movie is a lot of fun is because that's how a lot of people feel when they enter a new family where they're just like, are these people trying to kill me?

What the fuck is going on here? It was a really good joke, stretched out, and used... that deployed a lot of great gore. And speaking of wonderful kind of scream queen horror girls like Micah Monroe, Samara We think might be the best in the business.

So that first movie is a lot of fun. This new one adds a bunch of new actors. Catherine Newton comes on as her sister. Our beloved Sarah Michelle Geller is here. Sean Hadassie from the Pit is here. David Cronenberg, Elijah Wood. The movie picks up immediately after the first film. So she's drenched in blood. The house is burning down. She's wearing the wedding dress, and she's arrested and taken to the hospital. And the story goes from there. She very quickly gets picked up and taken back and is brought into a kind of expanded universe of Satanist that are trying to kill her.

I think the movie is okay. I think it has lost all of its novelty because we saw the first film. It's the same filmmakers. It's the radio silence guys who I've had on the show before, who I think are really talented. Some fun kills. There's some good creativity. Catherine Newton, another emerging scream queen, has good chemistry. mystery with Samara Weaving, but it's very hard for this movie to recapture what was special about the first film.

In part because when characters fail in their efforts to kill the person who is meant to be killed on behalf of Satan, they explode into a giant pool of blood. Oh, okay. Which is one of the amazing revelations of the first film. And then they play that note like six times in this movie, and it's a lot less effective. Okay. I wish this was better. It's not bad. If you liked the first movie,

it's an okay time at the movies. They will kill you. It's weirdly the same. It's about a woman who gets a job at a hotel slash high-rise as a maid. And the reason that she got there is because someone is working there who is very close to her, who she's attempting to rescue. But she doesn't fully realize that the people who own, operate,

and live in this high-rise are also Satanist. and they need sacrifices to come into their space so they can kill them on behalf of Satan. Let's drill down on this little. So the people who own and operate the hotel also live in the hotel? I guess it's more of like an apartment building. Okay.

So it's a, yeah. It's almost like a manner in a way because there is this sort of like maid service team. I'm trying to, oh, is it like assisted living? Like is everyone of a certain age? No, because it's, I mean, the other stars of the film or Patricia Arquette, Heather Graham, Tom Felton from the Harry Potter films, Mahala from industry. So it's not old people.

It's not people of a problem. I mean, there are hotels that also offer residential services. It's basically like a co-op. Okay. And is it like built on like Satan's portal? So Satan owns the co-op and then they work for Satan? Or is it a collective? Unclear whose name's on the deed, I'll say.

I think the movie has the same idea it's more like Kill Bill meets Looney Tunes in terms of how it's executed it has some very fun action Zazzy beats surprisingly excellent action heroin

she does a lot of machete killing she does a lot of beating the shit out of people and exploding their heads a lot of sought off shotgun blasts the movie has an energy and a real comic sensibility It feels like Joe Dante at times It feels like Sam Ramey at times Has a lot of stuff I like

But it's like barely a plot, barely. Okay And at 94 minutes, I found it to be a little bit long And it's just very weird That these movies came out at the same time. The director Sokolov is super talented At the set pieces and some of the gore stuff But

It's just it's kind of like the deep impact Armageddon thing We're like, how did this happen? And then did they think very obviously like, okay, shit, well, they're putting their movie out here. We got to put it out a week later so that we can, like, get a little taste of that or something. I'm not sure. I will say people were much more into they will kill you at my screening last night than we're into ready or not, too. Well, that's the first week of it, right?

I saw both on opening night. Oh, okay. I saw both on opening night with normal crowds. Okay. And this one clicked more, maybe just because it seemed more new and because it was a little bit more outsized. Yeah. But neither of them are as good as I would hope that they would be. Okay.

That's my report on those two movies. Okay. I think you can skip them. Yeah. Once they were described as like gory horror movies, where you're there for the kills, not for the, you know, intricate psychological. Yeah. Neither of them really explore that.

Exploration and blocking. I hope Samara Even gets a really great movie soon, though. I think she's pretty special. I think she's got incredible screen presence, you know, most amusingly. utilized in Babylon when she comes on as like the Margot Robbie looking girl. Right, yeah. Margot Robbie unseats, which I think is one of the best jokes in that movie. Okay.

Next movie. The movie I haven't seen. Midwinter break. You didn't get to. This is adapted from a novel that I have not read, directed by Polly Fenley, and it stars Leslie Metonville and Karen Hines. Two goats. Yeah.

It's a shame you didn't get to see this because this is, it's about like an older couple empty nesters, and then they go on vacation to Amsterdam, and then some revelations about their inner lives and their relationship, and how are they going to deal with them? But it's basically about Irish Catholic guilt, but this time, here's the twist, a woman. So I was just like, what's happening here? I was like, Leslie Manville, get it together, honestly. And that's not fair. She's working through her things in her own time.

And obviously both actors are wonderful. But it's like a lot more about religious guilt than I tend to relate to. Women really can have it all now. Irish guilt and everything. Yeah, we really can. It's, I mean, it really feels like a classic, the seniors at the Lincoln Center film, like movie theater that I think sadly since closed on an afternoon. This is made for them. And it's not bad, but I didn't person.

I'm not at that phase of my life yet. And I don't know if I ever will be. Angelica Core, too. Yeah. Yeah. I love these two actors. They're very good. Yeah.

I intend to see this because I do have a soft spot for... These movies are kind of like... Aspirational is not the word. But like 45 years, Andrew Hay's movie is, I presume, a much better version of this movie. The thing is that it's just... There's not a ton of revelation in it. honestly besides the religious stuff and you know your mileage will vary on that I think all right but maybe yours won't let's talk about the AI doc okay I made a last minute choice to

see this as well as they will kill you last night okay and I I really wanted to see it for a couple of reasons um the full title you love AI well I I think that there's probably a bigger conversation about that we need to have just by the nature of industrial design right now. This movie is much bigger than what is happening in the world of movies. But the AI Doc or How I Became an Apocalypse Optimist is the new film from Daniel Roar and Charlie Tyrell. Daniel Roar last scene winning the Academy Award for Navalny. And he was already on this show. We recorded an interview with him, but not about this movie.

Because he also wrote and directed a movie called Tuna, which is coming out in May, which is about a piano tuner. who gets ensnared in a criminal enterprise. And it is a very, very good movie. Surprisingly good for a guy who hasn't made a scripted feature before. This new movie is a pure doc, hoping to figure out what's happening with artificial intelligence. A father-to-be embarks on an eye-opening journey to learn more about the most powerful technology

humanity has ever created and what's at stake if we get it wrong. On the surface, this is a very standard doc style where he brings in well over a dozen experts in all directions. scientists and academics and also critical leaders in Silicon Valley and doomers and optimistic voices and folks in politics all to kind of get this survey of this moment that we find ourselves in. And he shoots it through the prism of I'm about to have a kid and what's going to happen to my kid. And very early on in the film, one of the people says, most of the AI risk people that I speak to say that your child will not make

to their teens because of what AI will do. And then there are all these other people where like we are on the brink of as close to a utopian existence as we will ever have in this country when you look at what, you know, genome mapping will be able to do how we'll be able to handle the environment

so on and so forth. It's very hard, virtually impossible to get your arms around this entire subject in a 95-minute documentary. Right. It does a pretty good, it really is AI for dummies in a way that I think has a real utility

in terms of explaining to the layperson not just what AI is because a lot of people just use chat GPT or they did use SORA until they shut Sora down and they are using it with Gemini and they are using it in a lot of these AI assistants that appear on a lot of different services

they're using it when they go to the hospital or the doctor so it's already integrated into people's lives but I think the movie is good about explaining both the ecological impact and then the human impact, the geopolitical impact, a lot of potentialities. The movie kind of resists having a final say beyond, I hope it's okay. And that's probably the right choice. Did you also become an apocalypticist?

You know, I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this. And I did want to talk to you about how you think about it. Because there's the very obvious reactionary, ugh, this is terrible. This is ruining art, and I hate it. And then there's also the, like, crude capitalist. Like, it's happening no matter what, accept it. It's going to run things, and it's going to do so in a way that we can control. And as with most things, I tend to fall in the middle of this.

Like, I see the ways in which it can improve things, and I see the ways in which it can really damage people. I don't feel like I'm an apocalyptic fearing person about this. I don't wake up scared about it. But I'm an optimist about it. nothing. So how do you feel about it? I mean, I am. I think that the reality is somewhere in the middle, and that's where I am as well. I mean, I don't wake up fearing Skynet. I have no interest and not just an acute Jacob Allorty. Like, I'd rather be sunburnt on the beach kissing sort of way.

But I was talking with my husband about this in terms of AI assistance recently and people using them to do kind of some of the mundane computer tasks or scheduling or all sorts of things. And I was like, I don't, I also don't, I would not be, I don't have an assistant and I wouldn't be a good at an assistant because I'm not good at delegating because then you just have to do it again yourself. And so there is an element to all of this where I just don't, it will always, it will be technology that if it's trained appropriately, it's just like the next thing that could make your life easier in some ways or could do other things. and then we'll also not be as good at other stuff. And, you know, is it ruining art? Yes, but also, like, plenty of other things were ruining art before. So, again, I don't, it's not awesome.

One thing I don't, I don't willingly use it. I don't either. I'm not a chat GPT person. I don't, I try not to rely on things like Gemini when I'm doing searches. I think that it's obviously been built into our lives in ways that we don't see as well. there's a lot that is happening that is assisting us in all kinds of ways that we don't realize. One thing the movie does well is that it locates this really core kernel idea that there's more or less five people that are making these decisions about how this is working. Right.

And that these five people are in a race to unlock AGI rather than just A.I. And AGI is this kind of elevated independent operating power. this like, you know, it's represented in the film is almost like this Rubik's cube that lights up that will ultimately take us to the next level of utility and maybe in fact, if handled correctly with the right safety provisions

becomes this all-knowing problem solver for us. But these five people, I won't be able to remember all of them, but obviously Sam Altman at OpenAI, you've got the folks at Google DeepMind, you've got Meta, you've got Anthropic, and I believe you've got Microsoft

AI. Those are sort of like the five power players in this space. And that what's really scary is that the best way to move quickly in this race is to remove safety. And if you remove safety, you can get to the endpoint quicker. And then you will be deemed the winner of the race. And then you can control the landscape. Now, this is, these five people, these are all American companies or companies that are

mostly American. You've also got the Chinese government. You've got, you know, UAE and Saudi Arabia. you've got North Korea and South Korea. You've got all these competing forces. You've got who's able to manufacture chips. It's a broad geopolitical landscape you have to consider. And at some point the chips depend on resources.

Most of which are made in Taiwan, which is controlled by China. The U.S. doesn't like how China controls. There's a million different factors that come into it. But I like that the movie really boils this down to. These five guys, the buck kind of stops with them. And if they don't exist or operate, it isn't, it's XAI is the one I'm thinking of. It's not Microsoft. XAI is Elon Musk's company.

Who was formerly involved with OpenAI and then felt that Sam Altman was not acting safely enough. So he started his own company, a kind of paradox onto itself. Okay. It's unusual. Yeah. Someone makes this point in the film that is so powerful, which is that there are more rules and regulations around selling a sandwich than there are. around building AI technology right now. I mean, this is true, certainly of Silicon Valley and of every new technology.

And, you know, in some ways, it's the social network, which it is just here is a person who figured out something in an unregulated market that changes the way that we operate our world and each other. And the social network dares to ask, is that the person we want in charge of things? Or this is what it looks like? Yes. And, you know, I don't know any of those. I assume they're all gentlemen.

The three, they're all men. Yeah. Three of the five men sit for the film. Yeah, I don't know them, but I'm assuming I would not elect them to be in charge of reshaping how we interact with the world. There's one fascinating revelation in the movie or just sort of moment in the movie where, you know, Daniel appears on camera in the movie. And he's really using his personal experience. His wife is in the film, you know, talking through her pregnancy. She's a filmmaker in her own right.

She's kind of like helping him make the movie and being like, you can't do this. you fucking idiot. It's charming like construction. But Sam Altman appears near the end of the film. He sits for an interview. And he has been become a, arguably the most talked about leader, corporate leader in America this year. He is the new Mark Zuckerberg. He even has a new, like he has his own social network coming out at the end of this year.

He does. And he was in the movie news this week with the Disney Revelation around OpenAI and SORA. But anyhow, he sits for the film and Dan turned. to him and he's like, hey man, like, I'm making this film because I have all of this anxiety and concern about this because I'm having my first child and I'm, and I'm, I'm, I'm nervous. And Sam Altman says, oh, I'm having my first kid too in March. And then we get to see Sam Altman explain his feelings about this world through that prism of he is also now indicted, involved, essentialized in his family lineage through whatever he creates, whatever he

chooses to do. And there's a feeling that Open AI is ahead, that they're ahead of everybody right now. And that if they unlock the final piece of the puzzle, I'm a little dubious about it, whether there is a final piece of the puzzle and that will keep having these races because that benefits stock prices, but nevertheless, there's a couple of strokes in the movie that are really smart. It's like, it's very much worth seeing, but don't expect to come out of it feeling like you've got your arms around it and this is how we should feel. Right. At the same time, it feels, you know, how I became an apocalypticist, which first of all is just very hard to say, but it was not designed with podcasts in mind. But that is probably off-putting to a slice of people who are AI skeptical.

Yes. But it doesn't sound like it's an advertisement for these people in the way that the title would suggest. It doesn't do that many favors. Yeah. It doesn't let them off the hook. I think he does a good job casting a few journalists who are like, this is crazy that this is happening, you know, very bluntly explaining.

how wild what is happening is happening. It's worth checking out, though, because this is... I think this is the flashpoint issue in the American economy, in American culture. It is... And it was smart of them to bring this up. And we were talking about the Daniels, and Dan Kwan, one of the Daniels is a producer on this film. It can be seen in the movie at certain times. Like, he's also somebody who explores science fiction seems to be very interested.

Anyway, I would recommend it. It is an imperfect documentary and feels very different from Navalny in terms of how it's been made. But it is very, very interesting. Why don't we talk about a private life now? Okay. Which you have seen part of and I... I started it and couldn't finish it before the end of this episode, unfortunately. So this is directed by...

And I believe written by Rebecca Lattowski and is a French film starring Jody Foster who is acting mostly in French. She plays an American woman psychiatrist living in Paris and is married to Daniel Latois, a Frenchman, and mostly sees clients in France. French, but every once in a while when she's pissed off, she like mutters under her breath in English. And the rest of the cast is French. And the setup, the premise is one of her patients dies.

And then she decides to investigate this suspicious death. That makes it sound more like a murder, podcast, murder she wrote, undertaking than it is, which is as a weird, slightly Woody Allen-ass like slice of French life. I mean, there's just like a lot of psycholic analysis. And, you know, and at one point, she accuses a hypnotist of being an ismetic because she questions for its practices or financial motivations. But it's more about the Jody Foster character. And as it goes on, gets a little shagier and a little bit more about her life and her, if you will,

private life than about solving this murder case. Though that ultimately is solved, I think. It's a little all over the place in a very charming way. Okay. I mentioned to you that Frederick Wiseman makes the late great, makes a cameo as her as Jody Foster's psychiatrist. I had assumed that that's who he would be playing. And gives her some real talk and is wonderful.

there's a scene with a hypnotist, which I thought was pretty cool. I did see this part and enjoyed it. Yeah, it lingers a bit longer in the places where movies like this don't, or I think more traditional thrillers don't linger. It really is as much about a psychiatrist or also just about how people are weird and how the French people are weird. And again, it's filmed in Paris in what look like real apartments and cafes and on the street.

I was kind of into it. I think maybe Jody Foster is the weak link. Wow. Well, because there is, towards the back half, they're trying to do something slightly comedic and I don't know whether. I found even the beginning was what I saw was very comedic. It did feel a little bit like they dropped Jody Foster into a late period of Olivia S-A-S-A-S movie.

Yes, that's the other one that, that's the other reference. But I am, and I felt like someone who could handle the comedy of it in a little, like, more open way, would have made more sense. I kept thinking about Chris and Scott Thomas, another person who's my favorite and also does act in French and English. But Jody Foster was very good. Yeah, the one thing I had heard, because I believe this played Telleride when I was there and I didn't get a chance to see it there. And I really wanted to. Jody Foster was very present at Tellerite. I was online with her many times.

was that she was great in this movie and the movie was a little baggy. And so that's kind of the opposite of what you're sharing with me. I mean, it's what you respond to in the movie, right? Like, she is very good. Jody Foster's always good. But Jody Foster is in one movie

and as you said, they're all making another, you know, shaggy French movie. Yeah. Okay, interesting. I'm going to, I will finish this. At some point, without spoiling it, Matthew Amarik, like, just is making love to someone. I was going to use a different word,

and it's filmed as a different word to some lady, like, and they're watching. like on a porch in a random like French port town and Jody Foster and Daniel O'Toy are like under the bushes watching and they just go for it or while like naked in the moonlight. And I was like well, this is, it's not something you've seen in an American movie.

That's true. That's very French. Matthew America's got to be like 65 years old. God bless him. Yeah. And they're both like quite naked. And they do like a moon salutation at the end after they finish what they're doing.

Unbelievable. Yeah, it's great stuff. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You've been there. settling in for a relaxing evening of TV only to waste half the night scrolling through options, enter Fire TV. It's entertainment with zero effort required.

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Let me tell you about good luck have fun, don't die, since I just spieled to you about AI. Under normal circumstances, this would be one of the five most anticipated or most excited movies of the year for me. It's the first movie in many years from Gore Vibinsky, who was one of the very first guests

on this podcast when he was here for a cure for wellness. This is his first movie since. Starrs Sam Rockwell, Haley Lou Richardson, another fave Michael Pena, as he beats again. A frenzy time traveler enters a diner attempting to stop an AI apocalypse, having already failed over 100 times,

he recruits an unlikely group including a bereaved mother, terrorized teachers, and a woman with a severe technology, allergy. Does that mean that she hates it? Like me, but she doesn't need like an epipen. No, she hates it.

She's averse too. But an epipen could also be, an allergy could be a part of a... I saw the film in January, so I can't recall specifically... Just like a horror film, because then at some point you're stuck. Well, that's a good idea for a horror film.

Yeah, there you go. I think when you look at this movie, and there's another movie that is out right now called Undertone, which is about a podcast host, a pair of podcast hosts who are getting messages into their kind of call-in murder talk show that has been a recent hit. I saw that film last year before it was picked up by 824, it has since been picked up by 824 and went into theaters and had some success.

And you look at the AI doc. Look at Mission Impossible. Yeah. Final reckoning. Just kind of the angst and anxiety that is being generated by what we don't know that technology is doing to us. It is a moment in time. And then in the same way, when you go back and look at 70s science fiction, you say, oh, like, well, this speaks to concern about this. You know, what do silent running and Soylent Green have in common?

They're both kind of like eco-terror movies, but they're done in different ways or phase four. You can kind of draw all these parallels and illusions. But also, I think it's important to just, like, drill down on the movie itself. And good luck have fun don't die Seems like it would be so fun And it's just not that fun And I think it's The script is not as strong as I would have wanted it to be

Verbinski famously one of the great shot makers In movies But this movie is like not lit as beautifully As his previous films I don't feel like all the set pieces work as well I fucking love Sam Rockwell And I found him a little bit grading in the movie

Yeah Well he you know When he decides just to show up And do Sam Rockwell For the Czech again, no judgment. I know, but this movie required a lot of him. And I, you know, I feel like he just slightly missed the mark on how to play the character

where it feels a little bit like Robert Downey Jr. kind of motor-mouthing his way. It's not, I thought it really, like, reduced the stakes. And I think Vervinsky's usually good at the stakes. Like, he made the ring, which is fucking terrifying. And he knows how to play it straight, and he knows how to do gags. And this was maybe a little bit more gag than straight for my taste. And it pains me to say that because I'm just such a big fan of his. And this movie kind of came and went, and I think it kind of came and went for a reason.

Undertone is kind of the opposite. It's like a person we've not heard of before. Ian Tuison, who had an experience taking care of his parents as they were getting older that inspired this movie. And the woman in this movie who's one of the podcast hosts is taking care of her mom, she learns that she's pregnant. And all these ideas about not like motherhood, but like kind of parenthood and legacy are on her mind, but she's not enunciating them in like a trauma-porn way. And the movie is worth seeing.

I didn't see it in a movie theater. I saw it at home on a link when it was being passed around after horror film festival. Somebody sent it to me. It was just like, you've got to watch this. Because it's a tiny movie made for less than $500,000. And the sound design is incredible. And it's all about a person who's like wearing headphones, talking into a microphone, taking calls, being alone in a house. That aspect of it works really well.

I'll bet that works well in a movie theater. There's also just a lot of like cheap jump scares and annoying horror stuff to your point that I don't think you would. love this. I think it is, it feels a little bit too slickly designed, but I also feel like Ian Tuison's going to make like a lot of horror movies and be very successful on, and a really smart piece of business by A24, who I think bought it for half a million dollars and it's going to end making like 20 million bucks to the box office. So in case you're wondering how they keep making some of these movies that don't always hit. Good piece of business. Can we talk about horror movie titles for a second? Sure. They will kill you ready or not to here I come or ready

or not. Good luck. Have fun. Don't die. These, these, we're at answering like Nancy Myers territory here. These are all the same movie, you know? I agree with you. They're all like very actionable, like direct to camera taken from an internet comment. Well, don't forget about now you see me now you don't. Well, sure, but that's not a horror movie. That's about...

It was horrifying to me. And to all South Africans. That's who you want to be grouped with? Not necessarily. Okay. I mean, there are many fine people in South Africa. I just, I do think that we are... I mean, maybe this is the intentional, the intention of the marketing that they're

just kind of grouped together and you're like, oh, like the new, you know, I'm going to taunt you movie is out. I'll go see it this week. But these are indistinguishable to me. I think those three movies, good luck is a little bit more sci-fi than horror though. It does have horror elements. I would say, but those three movies, it's interesting to group them together. They are wink horror. They are, we're doing a lot of gags. Yeah. It's not like comedy, but there's a lot of funny stuff in them. Undertone is the opposite. Undertone is an unsettling, quiet, scary movie. group undertone in that. I know.

But I think that it's potentially a problem to keep making horror movies that are like this. It's like, we're all having fun, right? Yeah. That's not, it can work. If you're Sam Ramey, it works.

If you're not, then it's a little bit more challenging. If they're good, and then people will just sign up for the next one, then it's fine. But it does sound like these are three middling

movies that all sound and in some ways are the same in terms of Satanists. And, and AI, Satanist? We don't know. You're a group together, I think. They could be. Let's talk about Our Hero Balthazar.

Yeah. This is a new film directed by Oscar Boyson, who's probably best known for being a producer on that first stretch of Safdi Brothers movies. It stars Jaden Martel, Asa Butterfield, Chris Bauer, Jennifer Ely, and Abyshnikov, Noah Centineo. It's about a wealthy teenager who tries to gain his crushes attention by posting videos pleading for stricter gun laws.

As an online troll begins mocking his videos, as he becomes convinced the troll is a mass shooter and travels to Texas to confront him. Yeah. I was very happy to hear that you were watching this movie. Yes, I did. I completed it, yeah. What did you think of this?

This movie bugged me in the right way. And it was clearly meant to put you on edge and have that feeling of like, wait, are you guys really doing this? And no. And come on. But then was always able to grab me back in. not a consistent tone, but like a consistent commitment to its bit, which I appreciated even if I was annoyed by it.

It's funny that it's a movie about a troll that is very trolling. Yes. Yes. But also, it is trolley and it stays trolley and never lets up on the gas or tries to make like a sincere point. I was reminded, and I suppose, because of the school shooting stuff, of Voxlux, which is a movie that at some point veers into earnestness and really wants you to take lessons from it after its trolliness, and that's where it loses me. I mean, it's not a perfect movie. I cannot believe that's Ace of Butterfield. That's the best part of the movie.

It's unreal, and I knew that Ace of Butterfield was in the movie, and it still took me full five minutes to be like, wait a second. And the movie, he comes in about 30 minutes, and he all. of the scenes in Texas are much, much better. The Ballazar character is a framing device. I agree, and is, like, not the greatest Jaden Martel performance, and you really feel that when Asa Butterfield shows up in the movie, because historically, he would be playing the Jaden Martel

character and recasting him as this kind of, like, white trash, Texas kid, who's, like, dad disrespects him and is, like, a hustler, and you can see he's got, like, all this vulnerability, but also all this anger and frustration, and this kind of, like, lack of connection to his own masculinity, but it's such a good performance.

Yeah. And this is such a zag for him as an actor. I think the movie is worth watching just for him. Totally. And I think even just the conception of that character is a unique and very humanized person in a way that the Jaden Martel character is not. Yes. The Jaden Martel character feels like a concoction.

And the A.A. Butterfield character feels like a real person. And really like a vehicle to get you to Texas. And you would never know that at the beginning of the movie. No. The beginning of the movie, you're like, I'm going to be with this annoying kid for two hours. And Jennifer Ely's there? And you're like, oh, wow, it's Jennifer Ely. Yeah, I know.

I know. It is a really, it's an interesting movie. And I think what Boyson is doing, you can see kind of in the roots of the New York movies that he made too, but him kind of going outside of that. And it is a movie about kind of the online experience versus real life. We've seen a lot of movies about that in the last five or ten years. But this had kind of like a dinginess that I really enjoyed. Yeah. And it didn't feel like it was like cultural tourism.

Like it didn't feel like it was making fun of people. Like, I thought he had, like, empathy is not the right word, but like an authenticity maybe to how that character is portrayed. Yeah, yeah. It is also a very online movie, at least in its subject matter, that does manage to create a world in Texas outside of the computers and the screens. And I mean that both in terms of the actual filmmaking. Again, the first 20 minutes because the Bathsaur character is like a wannabe influencer. And so he's doing videos and he's got the real. light and you're watching the Instagram comments and I was like, oh no, another one of these.

Yes. But it manages to... Like eighth grade meets dream scenario or something? Yeah. And they're just kind of like, you know, I spend enough time in Instagram comments like on my own time. But it does manage to get it off the screens, even as like their relationship is really built around. When they were in the car together, I'm like, this is the movie.

Yeah. This is like stand by me for a fucked up generation. There's two movies that I personally want to put a big circle around And I'll speak about them briefly One of them is Redux Redux, which was only barely on my radar Because it had premieres at horror film festivals Or genre film festivals last fall It just hit VOD

It stars a woman named Michaela McManus It's directed by her brothers, Matthew and Kevin McManus We'll be talking about time travel very soon in a movie on this list This is also a time travel movie In a very different register than that one It's about a distraught woman who travels through parallel universes to kill her daughter's murder over and over again. With each death, she grows more and more addicted to revenge, putting her own humanity in jeopardy. Parallel Universe's movie feels like a very high concept movie, but it's a very small indie.

The time machine that is used in the movie is very low-fi. The effects work is very clean and simple. It's a family-made movie. And I think it's incredibly effective. and the main performance by McKaylon McManus is super powerful. It does feel like if it feels like, this is maybe overstating it, but it feels like Jim Cameron in 1982

where you're like, oh, this guy's about to do something when somebody gives them money. It doesn't have the same level of like style and attitude that the Terminator does, but, you know, it's aware of like movie history,

but it's not really riffing on movie history. And it has this core idea, which is really good, which is if someone did something terrible to you, the worst thing imaginable. How would you get revenge in eternity? And what would happen to you if you kept doing this 10 times, 50 times, 100 times, a thousand times? Right.

How would you do it? Where would you do it? Why would you do it? And how would you get addicted to it? And what would that mean for your humanity? Just a great idea for a movie. Again, not perfect. Yeah.

A little draggy at times. But very good performances and very, I think very worth people's time. And like, this is a movie if I was working as a movie. studio executive, I would be calling these guys and be like, what other ideas do you have? Because we can cook together. Stop giving this stuff away, you know? Well, I want people to watch the movie. I think it's really cool.

Okay, what do you want to do next? You want to hear about Peke Blinder's? I watched it. You did watch it. Okay, but you have not seen any of the show. I've never seen the show. Nor have I. So this is one of the most popular television shows in Netflix history.

It famously stars Killian Murphy was created by Stephen Knight, the very successful screenwriter who is writing the new Bond movie. Is that right? I don't know. Amy hasn't called me lately. Okay. The movie is called Peeky Blinders, the Immortal Man. It's directed by Tom Harper, who directed my beloved Wild Rose and the Aeronauts and a number of other films. In addition to Killian Murphy, it stars Rebecca Ferguson, Barry Keoggan, Sophie Rundle, Stephen Graham.

Some of these people are coming back. Some of them are coming in for the first time. Tim Roth coming in for the first time. Yeah. He plays. A Brit who is working for the Nazis. A Nazi sympathizer. Yes.

Who is bringing currency into the UK so that it can be spread throughout the economy in the UK and thus destroy the economy. Right. Making England even more vulnerable to the Nazi regime that is attempting to overtake Western Europe. So we've never seen the show. Yeah. I did text a bit with Chris Ryan. I texted with Juliette-Liven and I pulled up. my text to get some context.

Two of the bigger peekie-blinders. We come to this not as understanders of peekie blinders, though I would not say it's the most complicated world. Did you like it? I wasn't mad at Killian Murphy doing bad Oppenheimer, though bad is question marks around that. What do you mean? Whether he's just doing Oppenheimer looking, you know, a distraught and mournfully and like,

what have I done at the camera and close up with some like decent wallpaper on the house set behind him? Happy for Rebecca Ferguson, who keeps collecting checks. Apparently, she was not in previous Peaky Blinders episodes. No. She's playing a twin, though. So that's why I thought, oh, that would be smart if her original character had been on the show. And I don't know why they couldn't bring back someone who had been on the show.

I guess when you can get Rebecca Ferguson, you can get Rebecca Ferguson. This has got to be the most boring movie ever that features Killian Murphy and Rebecca Ferguson fucking in a scene. That's true. And she is pretending to be inhabited by her dead twin sister's ghost when they are fucking. And that sounds way cooler. I was trying to be family, you know, friendly on the earlier. I understand. You removed fucking.

But Matthew Park was just absolutely going for it on the porch. Shout out to him. I just really wish. Okay. This show, as I understand it, is basically British guys in chalk striped suits. shooting Tommy guns in slow motion set to like Interpol-esque songs. Yes. And then having like sadness about that.

Right. And that's kind of what the show is. Tom Hardy was a part of the show. He's not in this film. I think it's like very stupid, but it is also one stitch away from things that are my favorite things in the world. So I don't, I don't want to judge it too much. I got it. What we watched was the TV movie finale.

of a TV show. And we watched that in terms of like the concept and the content of the show, which is people who we think are hot having conversations. Barry Kilgan just like doing crime 101 again, but for good. And that ultimately,

spoiler alert, I guess. And then and then the shootouts to the bad to me, music played very loudly. You know, everyone's just like on various TV sets as they were on peeky blinders.

That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. You and I are proud defenders of all three Down Abbey movies, which again are TV shows that then had multiple movies as a capper. Yes. So that's fine. That's just, that's what this is. Killian Murphy was available for one feature film and not any more seasons of the show.

And so that's what they made. Yeah. Bless you. It's not. Can I ask, can I tell you? what I asked Juliet. This is my first question. Yes. Early Q. Are the peekie blinders bad or good? What was the answer?

They are a murderous gang, but they have been anti-fascism, anti-sovians, and anti-selling of illegal guns in England post-World one. Okay. Which is in line. Ultimately... They're anti-heroes. Yeah. They're part of the post-sopranos wave of television about complicated men who do bad things. And they are also friend to the marginalized. Yeah. And they have Romani roots, so they themselves come from a marginalized people.

Yeah. It's very interesting that this is the most popular movie on Netflix right now, that this show is as big as it is. Because it is a fancy and well-made period piece. You know, it's a crime movie. Yeah. But it is. The bones of it are pretty interesting. This did feel like them kind of like ringing out, as you say, like one last droplet of content from this 70-episode television.

show. But it seems like people who like it, like it. And, you know, we're looking at the state of the art here. Yeah. This is what movies are all about right now. Yeah. Is the immortal man. Uh, you didn't take your child to see goat, did you? I tried. Uh, I tried to do this on Monday, but my husband was like, no, you will come to the grocery store with me and my, and our other child. Um, you know, I got to say I liked it. And, uh, I was a little dubious of this film, which is one of the biggest movies of the year. I was about to cross a hundred million dollars at the box office and original animated feature produced by Stefan Curry, directed by Tyree Dillahey. I did take my daughter to see it.

We had a lovely afternoon seeing the movie. It is about a small goat named Will who gets a once-in-a-lifetime shot to join the pros and play, quote, roar ball, which is a modified version of basketball. That's very hard for me to say. Roar ball, yes. It's a high-intensity, full-contact sport that's dominated by the fastest, fiercest, and animals in the world. Okay. Ridiculed by his teammates

Will becomes determined to revolutionize the sport and prove that, quote, small can ball. Okay. But so, multi-species. All species,

including on each team. It's not defined by species. Is there a correlation between, like, do bears play like, power forward? Yeah, I don't know

which one's a tall one. There's a giraffe on Will's team. The lead figure. Okay. One, it's animated well, very good voice performances. Nick Kroll in particular as a Komodo dragon is hilarious in the movie. Pat Nosswald's there.

Jelly Roll is there. Gabriel Union, Aaron Pierre, a lot of really good voice performances. The main character that is not Will is Jet. And Jet is, I think, a Black Panther or a Jaguar, a black cat. Okay. And it's very clear to me, or at least it seems clear to me. And I don't even know, I haven't read any reviews of this movie. I don't know if people are saying this, that this is an amazingly subtle shot at LeBron James by Stefan Curry.

Okay. Where Jet, a female character, but very clearly in the LeBron James mold of a multi-year veteran who's never really won the big one. Mm-hmm. But who likes to play in their own very particular style. Mm-hmm. And that is a very egocentric. style is being forced to be introduced to this smaller style with this new teammate who seems like a stunt but actually might be able to extend his or her career. Now obviously Stefan

LeBron never played together but the way that the Jet character is positioned I would I feel like there's a little bit of a like whose generation of basketball was this really going on. Got it. Stefan LeBron have both produced films. They've both gotten into this space. They've both won titles, they famously went back and forth over a number of years with the Warriors and the Cavs. Well, sure. Then the goat is right there in the title. Is it that subtle? It's called goat. It's not subtle at all. Yeah. And yet to me it feels like the primary engine of the movie. Now, perhaps that's just being basketball-pilled and just knowing too much about the NBA, that I'm like,

I can only see it through this prism. My daughter, of course, has no idea what any of that is. And she's just like, Jed is my favorite character because that's a cool black cat. But if, if, If you could get Stefan Curry some truth serum to discuss this, it would be the best podcast of all time. Well, isn't that true in general about all athletes? But even Steph Curry, if you could get them some truth serum, yes. Yeah, some real stuff would come out. So I am looking here at the Wikipedia page for goat just to figure out the various species involved. And there's a lot of specificity here.

So Will is an American pygmy goat. Okay. Jet is a Black Panther. Main attraction, voiced by Aaron Pierre, an Andalusian horse. Nicola Coughlin plays as an ostrich, just a regular. Main attraction, by the way, is the real heavy of the movie. He's the bad guy.

Archie, David Harbor, is an Indian rhinoceros. He's very good. He has two young daughters. Komodo dragon, which I do know is real because they're in Skyfall. And, but can I just tell you something? My father-in-law learned independently, like not from our podcast because he doesn't listen. I love you, Rich, and that's okay. You don't have to listen.

He doesn't hear you. He was like, I just learned that Wolverines are real. Totally independently. No, I swear to you. Zach made him stop and he was like, Amanda, come back inside so you can hear this. I don't know what to tell you. No, something got in his algorithm.

I don't think Rich has an algorithm. I don't know. I think they went to like Huntington Garden or some music. I don't know. They don't have Wolverines in Huntington Gardens. Well, maybe they have an exhibit, okay? Okay. Wart hog, I know what that is.

Ardwolf, is that a real thing? Yes. They're all real. Capibara, I know what that is. Everything else. No new animals here. I got to say, I see a lot of animated movies. Yeah.

This was way better than I expected. Okay. And I would recommend it to families. A musk ox and bat duo. Chuck and Rusty. Oh, they're commentators. Okay, that looks like sort of Timon and Pumba rip off, but that's okay.

There is some Timoon and Bumba there in the announcers, but there's some good interplay there. Did you see Mirroir number three? No, not yet. I know. This is like the best movie of the year. Yeah. You got to see this movie. I will.

If it's not the best, it is one of the most interesting by far. It was a festival movie last year. It's the new film from Christian Petsold. It's like 87 minutes. It stars Paula Beer, as his last few films have, Barbara R. It's about a woman who gets into a car crash on a country road. I guess it takes place in Germany, because all of his films take place in Germany for the most part.

And her partner dies, and she is retrieved by this woman who is living in a country house not far from the car accident. And Paula Beers disoriented, and she goes and she goes to live with them. She kind of recuperates for two days, and then two days becomes four days, four days becomes eight days. And she becomes a little bit more entrenched than the lives of this family.

The husband and the son work as sort of mechanics who break the rules in certain car designs so people can break the controls that certain car manufacturers create. And the movie is very small, simple, and quiet, and is also pure Hitchcock. Like, little vertigo, a little shadow of a doubt. We don't know who we're supposed to be trusting. We don't really know what's going on with the family and why. Petzold, one of the European masters. is easily the smallest most stripped down movie

he's ever made. I had been told that this was going to be the last movie that he and Paul Beer made together. They made Undine and a fire and a number of movies over the last few years. And she took over for Nina Haas, who had been the star of like five Petzel movies before that. But then Petzel just gave an interview and he said he wants his next

movie is going to be with Nina Haas and Paul a beer. Sick. It's like Avengers Dooms Day, but for German cinema. This movie is captivating. And very modest, so don't get your hopes up in terms of like the incident. But I think very, very good and I highly

encourage people to see it. It's still in theaters, but probably won't be for long. And I wanted to give a little love to it before we get through the first quarter. Okay, tell me about Mark by Sophia. So I saw this in Venice and I got to be in the same room as Sophia Coppola who directed this

824 documentary about her friend and an essential 90s fashion designer who's still working Mark Jacobs. Did you Where are you and Mark Jacobs? I've never owned a piece by him. I have nothing against them in.

I don't know very much about him. But you never went into any of the stores in the West Village. Isn't there one on Melrose? I don't know if it's still there. What's going and coming on Melrose? Well, sure. Right on the corner there. There was always that famous, you know, that little side with the street splits.

Yes. And then there's the smaller avenue. Yeah, yeah. But then there was like an APC. And there have been a lot of things there. I don't know. And I would say that Mark Jacobs, the, the business has taken some turns in recent years,

and it is not as central to, like, a certain type of cool pop culture as it was in the late 90s and early 2000s when we were paying attention. Why is that? Because fashion is a fickle business, I think. And he's not owned by a conglomerate. I don't know. It's a whole other situation. But I'm just saying that to perhaps the younger people in the booth or at home, Mark Jacobs was like a real thing. And he and Sophia Coppola have been very closely linked for many, many years.

When she won her Oscar, she was wearing a custom Mark Jacobs dress. So this is 90s and early 2000s nostalgia for people my age. And it is completely without conflict. And I had a great time. And if you want to see Sophia Coppola just doing like a not even fashion-douye documentary, a fashion music video. But with, you know, because it's Mark Jacobs, she has some access. She has sit down interviews with him and they're slightly more, uh, revealing than, well, they're intimate. They're not particularly revealing. But that's okay. That's what Sophia

wants to do. If you know the names Mark Jacobs and Sophia Coppola and that means anything to you, then you will enjoy this. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. You know, everyone, everyone looks great. I feel like it's only in like a few theaters around the country this weekend, right? Yeah. I think it's a pretty small. release, but then you can seek it out. And she reuses a music cue. That's my only note. From another, from another very important Sophia Coppola film. Perhaps intentional? I don't really think so. Honestly, just, I don't think that she forgot. But it's like, again, the music cue in question, I don't, I guess I don't want to spoil for it, but it's at the

very end. And you're just like, what this, I don't know if these emotions are speaking to each other. Should we call her up? Yeah. What fuck are you thinking, Sophia? Okay, before we get to our last movie, I wanted to quickly give a shout out to a movie called Fantasy Life, which I quite enjoyed. Written and directed by Matthew Shearer, who you may recall as one of the annoying boyfriends in Mistress America, very Noah Baumbach and Greta Gerwig coded actor.

He has enlisted an incredible collection of well-known, older actors and actresses for this new film. He stars in the movie, opposite Amanda Peet. It's about a paralegal who's been laid off and begins babysitting this trio of little girls in a New York apartment. And the couple that he's babysitting for, sort of manning for, is a kind of failed rock star who's gotten like a new shot at doing some touring and an aging actress who's having a little bit of a midlife crisis. Amanda Pete plays the actress. Alessandro Navola plays the aging rock star. You know that he's also Ben Calvin Klein?

he's been Calvin Klein. On the... Oh, on Love Story. Yeah, I heard that. He had a great run as Copeland. Big fan of his as an actor. He's very, very good in this. I haven't seen Love Story yet.

But also Judd Hirsch, Bob Balaban, Andrea Martin, Zasha Mamet, Jessica Harper, Holland Taylor. Okay. Great supporting cast. Most of those actors only get one or two scenes, but really great. And just very bomb-back,

very Woody Allen, very, like, shaggy, funny, self-deprecating, small movie with the Queen Amanda Pee. doing a very self-lacerating introspective performance. This is like a small movie. I think Greenwich is putting it out,

but in a slightly different universe, it's like an awards platform for Pete, who I think is a very underrated comic dramatic performer. Like, is always kind of stuck in the middle in terms of what she's best at. But I really like her, so I think people should check that out. Okay, last movie is Mike and Nick

and Nick. Nick and Alice. You can hear an extended conversation with Ben David Grabinski at the end of this episode. This film stars Vince Vaughn, James Mars, and Aiza Gonzalez, Keith David, and Jimmy Tatro.

It's about two best friends. Quick Draw Mike and Nick working as enforcers for a criminal gang. The plot kicks off on the night. Mike is supposed to die. However, a, quote, future version of Nick travels back in time to stop this murder,

joining forces with present-day Mike and Nick's wife, Alice. Yeah. So you watch this. this. I did watch this. Okay. And I was very

charmed by it, even though I still don't think I could diagram it for you, and I think part of the effectiveness of this film is that it is time travel, John Wick,

with jokes, but that you don't, it doesn't get bogged down by anything. It just keeps moving. And it coasts on Vince Vaughn as Vince Vaughn, and he's back.

He has great chemistry with James Marsden, who's also very funny. and, you know, sometimes they're shooting things and sometimes they're doing like Abbott and Costello and it's a very entertaining experience. And then they also, it's an eclectic movie. Like, clearly there's, we're pulling from an omnivorous pop culture enthusiast.

Absolutely. And so just when you're like, okay, so I think I understand what's going on here, there is a full five-minute discussion of Gilmore Girls. And it's not a throwaway joke. And I wanted to talk with you about this because I felt the intentionality of this scene, which is definitely supposed to get people like My's attention and also to signal, hey, there is more here than just being really into like action movies.

John Woo movies. Yeah. Yeah. Our, you know, our references are broad. But it just keeps going and going. And so I, you know, I kind of perked up at home and I was like, oh, cute. Okay, they put something in for me. And then I really extensive, thoughtful.

And I ultimately think correct conversation about who is the best boyfriend in the Gilmore Girls. James Marzen is right. Have you seen Goalmore Girls? Some but not all of it. Okay. I have not completed the show. I'm a fan, but I just have not finished. So you don't know who the best boyfriend is.

And you didn't get any of the jokes about the Netflix stuff at the end, which I agree is very strange. I do and I did. And I'm aware of how they revived the show and brought it back. And I understood the gags. I mean, Ben David is going to be so happy to hear you talk about it because the one thing that he said when we finished talking was like I feel like I didn't get to explain enough about why I did this and why this was important to me

to stay in the movie. It's a really good good... Yeah, I got it. It's a really good conversation though about how you, like, get away with stuff when you're making a movie, because this is full of just getting away with it stuff. There's loads and loads of, as you said, the sort of omnivorous pop cultural references.

Lots of movie history is in this movie. Lots of movie style that is kind of borrowed from lots of things. Lots of music from our era. you know, prominent uses of Oasis and Dave Matthews band and Seal and Chemical Brothers and Andrew W.K. And needle drops galore. I did feel very safe and comfortable with Vince Vaughn doing Vince Vaughn. I do think it's very weird how we have kind of lost that unit of currency in movies

where he just gets to be riffy, you know, and funny. And that is something that was always very effective, no matter what you think of him. I just, you know, I'm clearly as movie crazy as Ben David is. And so for me, like, a movie like this just activates my brain and gets me thinking about, like, why did he pull this piece? Why did he do this? Why is he using a step printing action sequence technique in this movie that otherwise just feels like a traditional Hollywood movie in some ways? So there's lots to explore there, and we did explore it in our conversation. It's really fun.

It's really weird. And I know why this is the case, but it's really weird that this is a streaming movie. Because it's just so clearly a comedy written to be seen with strangers. And I can also see why this would be a marketing challenge for a movie studio to get people to come out to it because it's this amorphous, blob-like figure of different stuff with, like, a bunch of stars who are not like the biggest movie stars of all time. So I get it anymore. Anymore, right? They're recognizable, but not. And they make sense in that streaming universe, right?

Where Taylor Sheridan's like, you like Sam Elliott. Just watch this show. So I get what happened here, but still, this would have worked really well as a movie theater movie. And it says a little something that it's on Hulu. Yeah. But even then, if it's the movie theater version of it, does the Gilmore Girls Rift get to keep going for? I mean, it is long. I don't know.

I think it does. Okay. I think this is really fun. This is on Hulu right now. So people can watch it ASAP. Okay. Quickly, top fives. Yeah.

So. They're pretty similar. Are they? Yeah. Okay. Do you want to start? Sure. Well, no, my number five is one that you don't have. It's in your honorable mentions. The RIP. If Matt and Ben are going to do stuff on Netflix, let it be this. We haven't talked about Quinn Tarantino's feelings on The RIP? I don't want to spoil it.

You have shared a little bit with me. I don't know what's available for public consumption. It's probably not available yet, so I'll keep my mouth shut. That's just a tease. Great. Let's just say we've been corresponding about the film The RIP. Okay, I like the rip. I think I have the rip as an honorable mention. Yeah. Five is Project Homeary, which I really like. I'd like to see it again.

So you've seen it twice. I've seen it twice. I've seen it twice as well. I liked it a lot. Yeah. I think it is, I'm more obsessed with the craft of it than I am the story and emotional beats of it, the more I think about it. Because I feel like it, my one little note about it is I wish it just like penetrated a little bit further into Rylan Grace's,

psychologically and sometimes the movie is kind of putting its hand up with a joke that's saying like you can't go too far right I relate

I know you do I know you do I know we're different in that we are different in that way that's the only thing about it that I'm like I can't turn myself over to it completely but I really like it

I have a couple edits but my edit is essentially that at the end it allows itself to open up at least sentimentally to to friendship and to finding love. And I'm like, no, no, you got to cut way before that.

I don't need any of this stuff. I know exactly what the last shot should be. We can just, we can move on. You're very poisoned. Me, emotionally, or, yeah. But I also, you know, I can't. The pH test is gnarly. Okay, number four for you.

Bone Temple. Yeah, on my list as well. Rock out Ray Fines. I want to see this again. I've only seen it once. It's on Netflix. Oh, great. Okay.

Maybe I'll watch this weekend just for fun. I don't, if people haven't seen it, I don't want to say too much more because some of it was the, Ray Fines is in this movie and I won't say anymore. But what he gets to do, really like it. Is that your favorite performance of the year? Hmm. Yeah, maybe. Maybe more than, you know, what Gosling does is great, but it's kind of, it's tied up in Project Hill Mary.

Yeah. Okay. My number four is Mirwar number three, which I just spoke about. so we can go to your number three. My number three is your number one. So we'll just... Should we hold it? Yeah, we'll save it.

And... My number three is send help. This is good. This is my honorable mention, for sure. Just delightful if this movie was a success. Great to see Rachel McAdams back on top where she belongs. We're having a ripping season of Survivor. I'm feeling very good at it.

So I hear it's the 50th? 50th season. Okay. And so this movie was magnificently timed. I can only imagine it's going to go... Is it on VOD already? I think it just hit VOD. Maybe it'll hit 4K right around that finale time.

Oh, that's so exciting. Okay, so number two for me is the Bone Temple. Right. Number two for you is Hail Mary. Hell Mary. So we will go to my number one in your number three, which is Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Right. Which is the hardest I've laughed in a movie theater this year.

Me too, I think. Just a magical movie that I've also seen twice now and I've been very happy to do so. Yeah. I mean, my number one is sort of. of the girl version of your number one, which is the moment, which is the Charlie X, X, X, mockumentary. And, you know, in the same way that you are just like full of love and wanting to connect with people via time travel, mine is about how it's impossible to connect in that fame in life or prison best enjoyed with an April Spriths. I, you know, I'm a huge fan of Charlie X,

Yax, and I think this is like a very knowing, funny movie where I do think that you have to not only know about, but actually be interested in both the work of Charlie X-E-X and the inner workings of fame and music mockumentaries. It's not for everyone thing, but I very much enjoyed it. And I laughed a lot, too. Do you feel imprisoned by your own fame? I don't. No, I don't.

Do I feel imprisoned by having to look at my face a lot? Yes, I do. So that's tough. And do I feel imprisoned by every single Zoom? that I have to be on forever and ever. Like the Zoom scene where they can't get anything working and will, it's really funny. Do I feel that Alex Inner Scars Guard is both ruining my life and making it better at all times? Yes, even though I don't know him.

Yeah. I mean, that would be fine if he would like to commodify me. Anyway, I just, do I feel out of tune with most, you know, health and wellness, practitioners who don't think that my spirit is efficiently, you know, or adequately non-acidic to be treated. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. They're doing the pH test on you and they're like, what's going on with this gal?

Yeah, that's true. As Kylie Jenner teaches us in the next scene, just keep going. Just keep going. That is what we'll be doing here on the show forevermore. Well, that was a lot of movies. I hope you enjoyed that conversation that was extremely long but good. Let's go now to my other conversation with Ben David Grubinsky. Very happy to have been David Grubinsky here.

So you did it. You got a big major studio movie. Congratulations. How are you feeling? I'm feeling good. This is literally the end of the tour. I've been doing promotional stuff here in L.A. All week interviews, screenings and stuff.

And this is my last thing. I'm doing this. And I'm going to the airport. And I'm going to collapse. So it's like I definitely, you know, it's half, marathon half like victory lap or whatever just in terms of oh it exists it's coming out and then I'm like oh wait it's out

there's like a weird balance between all that but I'm excited to be here and talk about it yeah I feel like I'm catching you in the last pure moment in a way this isn't your first film it's not the first big thing that you've done but I know just knowing you a little bit and certainly knowing your work that you're an insane movie head that you I would it feels like we are in close cohort in terms of how much we love movies. Is that fair to say? I mean, you know, my office in New York that I write in

and do everything in is just all physical media. So it's like, and like those are the ones that are like, whenever you guys like get into that show, I watch the like the unboxing shit too, what you do with the movies. But it's like, it's, I don't know. It's like movies are my life. It's like the only thing I care about.

So it's like that would. be a problem if it also wasn't my job. Luckily it is. Like if I was this obsessive and I couldn't rationalize it as like part of the work, then maybe it would seem more insane. Let's go to the beginning before we get to the end. So I'm curious what the movie was that lit your torch, that got you excited about the idea, not just of loving movies, but of trying to make movies. Do you remember what that is? You know, it's funny. I know the movie that rewire. I know the movie that rewired. my brain in terms of tone or what movies could do, which was Batman Returns.

Because, like, I'd seen Batman, everyone, my age was obsessed with it, because it came out like when I was maybe, like, six or something. Yeah, we're about the same age. And it was sort of like a phenomenon for children. And, you know, everyone's seen it to death. You basically have the movie memorized, even like the Diet Coe commercial. And I remember seeing Batman Returns, and it's not that I was necessarily conscious of it,

but realizing how different it was, like this big swing it was taking in terms of humor and stuff. For some reason, just it really made me, like, aware of, like, what filmmaking is, or just, like, because it's, like, the contrast of the two. Like, it's not like I was sitting there thinking about these things and the way I'm explaining it now. Like, in hindsight, I think I get it.

But that movie was just, like, a bomb that got dropped on me where, like, I was really, I was, like, kind of scared of it. and it was just so, it just felt more interesting. And then watching aliens in my grandma's basement, I was watching it on cable by myself. I hadn't seen the first alien. I did not know what I was getting into. And I vividly remember the, there's like a bit when they're in a room

and there's like a sensor and you know the door is like 10 feet away or something. And then they realize the aliens are closer than the distance to the door. and that just my brain was like everything got rewired because it was just like I was like a cartoon character it's like whoa but it's not they're up there

and it's like and I just remember feeling like oh if I could ever do anything one percent as good as that because I wanted to make movies since I was you know before even middle school to a point where I talked to someone a couple years ago

who I'd not talk to in like 30 years and they're like oh I'm not surprised you were always talking about how you were going to movies and I was like, is that something I've like, rec con for my own life, or is that a thing I used to say? And I guess I just did all the time. So you're from Nebraska. You grow up in Nebraska? I was born in Nebraska, but I moved to Arizona when I was really, really young. So I lived in Arizona until I was 16, and then I moved to Iowa and then moved to L.A. right after college. How does one who's from Nebraska, Arizona,

Iowa chart a path to making movies? It's funny because I, all I ever want to do is be a director and I had never thought about writing. And I just thought, I'm going to move to L.A. and I'm going to make movies very naively. And, you know, I read every book you could about filmmaking and, you know, a lot. It's funny because, like, when I was, like, in middle school or, like, early high school, like, my film school was just, like, movie magazines, like Star-Law. and all that stuff.

But then my film school became DVDs. Like, I don't think my life would be what it is if there hadn't been that era when they spent so much money making special features and stuff. We're like, I remember it's like the commentary for Ronan. Like, I was obsessed with, like, the first two DVDs I got were like Ronan and next Friday, which in a weird way probably, actually,

I'm saying that out loud, I realize, like those two things are kind of combined or maybe my dumb sensibility. That is in a lot of ways what this new movie is. But I remember watching like a featurette about like storyboards on next Friday and then listening to the audio commentary with Frankenheimer a million times. And like I just, you know, it just I was obsessed with all this shit, but I didn't have a plan. And then when I was in college, I stayed there one year over the summer. And I didn't realize no one was going to be there because it's like suddenly like everyone I knew was gone.

You'd go to the local bar and then there's like one guy there. And I had no idea. It was going to be vacant. I'm like, what am I supposed to do with my time? And then I pirated a copy of Final Draft. I just, there was like some website where someone was like, hey, you can download Final Draft, and I wrote a script. And then someone said they liked it,

and I was immediately one of those idiots who was like, I guess I'm a writer. I just needed one person to say they thought it was good. So I just started writing. And then I moved to L.A., and then someone ended up optioning in a script that I wrote. and then I just started writing for a living. And then it just took over everything.

And then I kind of got sidetracked from whatever my plan was to direct. And then I made a short in 2010 called Cost of Living. And I wrote this action movie that I was trying to make from that. And I spent nine years trying to make it. And I couldn't get anyone to make it because I had a gigantic car chase in it. It was a really, insane, surprising, I guess, if anyone see my movie, like an action comedy thing with vampires, Carrie Coon was attached to star in it, and there was like a huge extended, like, 20-page car chase

in the middle. So I kept trying to get people to make it, and there's no way to make it cheaply. So after like nine years of almost making that with the same producer as the movie I just made, I was like, well, can I write that you could make for nothing or close to nothing? And I wrote happily. and then, yeah. Your first feature. Can we go back to... They can go back to whatever. I'm rambling.

No, no. The moment when you sold a screenplay that was optioned, how old were you? I was 22. Okay, so were you like, I'm in? This is going to be my career,

and this is how I'll make money, and I'm set? Well, it's funny because there's like the concept of an overnight success, which is, you know, you're young, people are like,

oh my God, we're going to buy this thing, we're going to make this, you're set. I sold a script. I was like, this is my life now. And they're like, we're going to make this in six months. I'm like, no one lies about these things. This is the truth. And then it didn't get made.

And I was like, oh, okay, and I write my next one. And they're like, we're going to make this in six months. I'm like, okay, it's cool, it's fine. I had that setback at 22 where that didn't get made. And then that one didn't. And it's like, okay, well, you know, probably get a movie made at like 25. And then it just kept, you know, you're like Lucy with a, Charlie Brown with the football.

And it took about almost a decade of that happening and me being like, oh, this just might be my life, is that I'm going to work and make a living consistently, maybe writing stuff that will never get made. And then I'd have some things that I'd be on for years, like for like really big directors and at studios and stuff where you do drafts and something for three years. And everyone's like, yeah, we're probably going to make this in this quarter

or we're going to do this thing. and, you know, like a dozen times. And then I spent a month working, doing some rewrites on this movie called Skip Trace for Rennie Harlan. And then they went off and made it and almost everything I wrote got, all my dialogue got rewritten. And then I got credit on that.

And I still don't know really what the rhyme or reason for it is like, I spent all this time and all these things that were going to quote unquote get made. And I just spend a month working on Skip Trace and then it becomes like your first credit. And then it's all. also a movie that made like, I think, $14 billion overseas and then $7,000 in America. So you kind of, there is no, I gave up a long time ago on like having a plan for my career.

Because you sort of just realize, okay, opportunities fall in your lap, chase the ones you think you can do a good job on and then see what happens. Weirdly, this movie is like the first thing that was like, I wrote a thing, I wanted to. wanted to make it and then it got made. You know, it's like I, like, when I did Are You Afraid of the Dark, it's just someone calling you because I'd written a draft of the movie saying, hey, do you have any idea for a show? And I go, okay. And then people are talking to Brian about doing a Scott Pilgrim show. And then we had dinner.

And then I was talking about it. And he's like, do you want to do it with me? And I'm like, okay. It's like these things just keep sort of like, and then you just try to do great work, hopefully. And then this is the first thing where it's like, I'm going to get this movie made. I'm going to do it. and then it happened. So, again, I don't know

if there's like a lesson from any of that. I'm still very interested in that like, oh, four to 19 range. Like, pre-are-you-free to the dark, pre-Cott Pilgrim, pre-happily, because I know plenty of people who are screenwriters and aspiring directors.

And I think at a certain point, sometimes what happens is, even when you're selling things, you start writing things to sell them and you give up hope on them ever being anything. And then so, that your career becomes kind of working creatively into active anonymity.

And like, you broke the spell, right? Like, you did it. You got films made. You got shows made. You're here. But was there a part of you that was worried that you were like, I will just be pouring my heart and soul into ideas that will never be realized at any point? You know, if I'm just going to be, like, really candid and honest instead of saying just sort of

what's like an interesting answer. It's that I think something's like wrong with my brain where I don't know how to think that way. It's just like because this is the only thing I've ever wanted to do and it's like the thing I care about, it's just like I just keep doing it and kind of naively assume eventually it'll work out. If I didn't feel that way, I probably would have got discouraged or something. Okay. But that's also just a weird thing to say about the fact that like, you know, I was making a living. And I, you know, it's the only job that I've had since I was like 23 or 24 or something. But it's just, it's odd because when you grow up loving movies and like reading every interview, you get this idea in your head of like what a successful career is. And you think it's,

oh, it's this thing. And then you make your first movie and then maybe the second one's not as good. And then you do this. And then you get into it and you're like, oh, those are kind of narratives people create in hindsight to kind of describe how their career went. And then you realize you're like, oh, this is just kind of chaos, you know, and you just, in hindsight, you can maybe come up with like a canned short answer of the arc of it. I think I might have made things just more confusing. Do you, well, do you, did you ever feel like in that period of time, like I missed the boat, like the industry changed? It's not as easy to do the thing. Because one of the things that I really like about your movies is that you have a sensibility, maybe not a style, but a sensibility that is very familiar to,

movies that we grew up on. There's like a lot of McTiernan and Shane Black and Tony Scott and, you know, the like high level like artisan craftsman with like a real sense of humor inside of these action movies. And that is like a little bit out of fashion or like comic book movies kind of sucked that up a little bit and kind of ruined it. And I'm curious if you've just ever felt like I'm just a little out of time when you're trying to get those movies made. You know, I really like.

trying not to be like on trend. I guess that might be a way of putting it. Where it's like, I try not to think at all about what people are doing right now in terms of filmmaking or like, it's not like I'm watching an action movie that came out six months ago. And I'm like, oh, this is how we're shooting that now. That's what we got to do. I try to cling to the things that I'm passionate about and kind of hope that'll give it like

a sense of specificity, you know, because I think that if I'm kind of trying to chase what other people are doing, then it's like I kind of don't have a North Star. Like, I don't really know which way is up. It's like I have to just kind of stay in my lane of like, to me, what feels like just the most fun way to do the thing. You know, so it's like all the action in this is just all my favorite Hong Kong action filmmakers,

just kind of getting filtered through my, you know, weird personality. But it's, I also just personally think stuff like that you can't improve on. Like, I think if you sat down tomorrow and you watch, like, speed or hard-boiled or any of those things, you can't say, oh, if only they had modern film techniques, this would be more exciting. I don't think there's anything that we could do. It's like, okay, let's add a drone to the fight. I totally respect the craft of everyone who's, like, trying to push the envelope. But I just keep going back and being like, I don't know, it's like if someone made a movie today that felt exactly like McTiernan, it would just, blow the roof off of everything.

And it's like, I don't know. To me, does that answer the question? No, it does. I mean, I'm trying to get down to the, boil down to the like formalism of the work that you're doing, even though you're making just very fun movies.

There is, and this was something that people said about McTyrton and Tony Scott and definitely John Wu too. You know, they were real artists who really seriously considered the structure and dynamic of what they were making. And you don't think about that when you see speed when you're 10 years old in a movie theater and you're like,

holy fucking shit, this is blowing my mind. But if you do go back and it sounds like you did really go back and kind of like deconstruct and try to understand how they did what they did and then try to rebuild from there while retaining your own self, which some filmmakers do and some don't. But it's interesting that like they did that about Pasolini, right? McTiernan famously like a really, really into the European tours. And you're doing it with them and like, do you have a consciousness of being part of that that step ladder of creativity.

You know, I mean, this is the best way I can really explain my process is that the day before I left for Winnipeg to make the movie, I introduced a screening of Last Action Hero at Vidiates, and then I brought my DP Larry Fong, and we sat in the back row, and I was just asking him some questions about how he used lenses in that movie. And then we went to Panavision and found lenses that McTiernan used for those movies, and then that's what I used on my movie. So that level of specific insanity where it's like, I'm not sitting on set saying what would McTiernan do, but I did figure out what his lenses were. It's like, for me it's just like I make movies because I really love movies and I like that the sum total of my influences are so kind of disparate that it kind of becomes a new thing.

You know, because I try, because it's like if I'm making something that is, you know, my favorite Hong Kong action movies and this thing and this thing and this thing and this thing and this thing. And I find kind of this package that I can filter all that into that is kind of coherent. Then it feels like fresh. I think that because like when people read this script, sometimes they'd say, oh, it's like back to the future meets Goodfellas. And I'm like, that's a cool thing to say. But I think it's a little bit more like sexy beast. And I think it's a little bit more like this thing. And then you start to realize it's like, okay, because if I say it's this meets this,

I have to say 400 movies, you know? Because it's like, it's to me, it's a buddy action comedy. It is a time travel movie where everyone's kind of lovable idiot and there's no one to talk about science. And it's a one night gone wrong movie. So, which is one of my favorite types of movies where it's like the movie is just one night. they have to be, you hope that they're going to live until sunrise and they'll figure out their shit. So that's like, to me, the simple way of describing it.

But then when other people start talking about it, I just have to, because it'd be funny, like I'd be in meetings and someone be like, yeah, it's just going to be like the next back to the future. I'm like, no, that's a perfect movie and it's also a different movie. And it's like, but then I'm like, oh, whatever, it doesn't matter how people describe it. Can you tell me a little bit about that process of going into rooms and trying to sell your movie? to people? You know, the funniest thing about this movie is I didn't have to sell it. And that's never happened to me before. I had a very, very fortunate situation, which is that I was really busy making Scott Pilgrim. And my producer, Andrew Lazar, who had been attached to the other movie I almost made forever, and has been like, for some reason, believed in me more than anyone.

And I've been in rooms where he does it in front of me or when I'm not around. And he's like, I promise he's going to, look, I work with Ochoowski's the first time, and he'll give these passionate speeches. like, I know he can do it. And I was busy, and he took the script to 20th and shared it with some people he knew there. And then they seemed to really like it, and they were all talking about it. I don't know any of this is happening. And I'm making Scott Pilgrim. I'm literally, I'm like at the voice record stage.

And then he calls me, and he's like, hey, so they're really excited about this movie. Can you come in and talk to him on Monday? I was just like, what? And I was like, okay, sure, whatever. This seems a little too good to be true. and then I went in and met with like Steve Asbell and Sarah Shepard and Richard Milton and I just talked and they asked me questions

and I was like talking about tonally the comps and the kind of actors I was thinking about and all these things and then at the end of the meeting they're just like okay and then they like made a deal and then we started working from there and everything else ever you sort of have to go in and do the razzle-dazzle and like really like confidently pitch the thing and this was a situation more

where I think they just wanted to make sure that I had a vision in my head. I had a concept of how I was in a direct action. I think it was just sort of they wanted to see if I was going to say anything that made them worried about it. I guess I maybe didn't. And then it just, you know, then it went from there. It's funny, too, because, like, we didn't send it out to the town. We didn't meet with any other studios.

I only had one other conversation about the movie where some people came to me and they were like, they had financing. And they were like, oh, you can make this independently with us. And we have this fund. And I was like, okay. And then at the end of the meeting, they're like, but you have to get rid of the Gilmore Girls scene. And I was like, what?

They're like, yeah, it's just not going to work if people haven't seen the show. I'm like, I kind of respectfully disagree with that. And then I take it. That's totally going to be the one. That's like the number, literally in our document to discuss your movie. Amanda's like, we have to talk about the Gilmore girl scene. Well, we will. but I'm saying that I'm at a major studio

and they didn't want to round off any of the edges of it. And I was so ready to have someone be like, yeah, we like it, but we don't like this part. And then it didn't happen. And then when I made the movie, I thought, okay, they're going to see it and they're going to be like, but you can't open with like this musical sequence. And then they didn't.

And it was like, two things are true. It was unbelievably difficult to make the movie. but I also had a lot of support creatively. So it's like it was very, very difficult technically and all these things. But at the same time, I'd talk to the studio and I'd be like, so what do you think of the daily? So they're like, they're great.

I was like, okay. Well, I'm just going to keep working on my headaches over here trying to figure this stuff out. And I don't understand why, because I've been trying to make, you know, a big action movie forever. And then the first one I get to make is also very idiosyncratic, and they were very supportive.

And that feels like a big contradiction, but I shouldn't really overthink it because it exists. I did it. There's definitely something happening at least from my perspective at 20th where they're like, we're just new line in the 90s. And we just are finding interesting, strong voices. And sometimes we plug them into our franchises. And sometimes we do originals. And you're going to get Predator Badlands and send help.

And you're going to get all these movies that feel like movies that we really liked when we were younger. and most of the time they're working. And that's like a... It is kind of the thing that I've been begging for for like 10 years on this show. And it's very exciting to watch. So it's even more fascinating that they didn't fuck with what you wanted to do.

I mean, Steve is a real one. Steve Asbell, I joked about this in my intro the other night at the premiere. But like, if the head of your studio really likes Psycho 2, you can have a dialogue, you know? Because I would... you know, if someone really doesn't love movies, it can be a little tough for me to kind of

explain where I'm coming from or kind of, because my passion comes from that. So it's like if it's really helpful that, you know, you can also say something that might sound insane where you're like saying, I want the action to feel like this and you're mentioning a movie that has zero humor. But he has enough of like film knowledge and love that he can tell, What I'm saying is aesthetically I'm looking for this, but also I'm trying to do this thing. And I've had some experiences with some people when you say something, they get so binary. Like, I once pitched on a movie. And I can't name what it is, but it was like a tent pole.

And I was pitching to a studio head. And I said, I pitched a joke, and he stopped me. And he goes, this isn't a comedy. And I said, well, I think I kind of want this to feel like the Star Trek from 2009 in terms of that energy where that's like a big. a big rollicking adventure, but it's also a comedy. He was like, but that's a sci-fi. This isn't a sci-fi. I was like, well, I'm saying I want it to be like this.

And the guy's like, no, but this doesn't have like spaceships in it. And I realize I'm like, I'm fucked. Because it's like the, you know, like when I'm talking about like intention or what I want to do, it's not like one to one in a literal way. So if you can't kind of like, that's where I can get screwed in terms of like communicating with someone because they'll just be like, wait, what? They just get fixated on like the other things. thing. Right. It's tone versus content and sometimes people can't see the middle. But Steve is like just a guy who seems to really love all kinds of movies and Sarah Shepard, my exec on it was just really, really helpful. And I think she just always always like kind of excited that she was making the original action movie. Because it's, it feels like most people do want to be doing that. It's just it can really get hard to push that up a hill or whatever.

Yeah, I think I was expecting a totally different story from you about the long journey to get this made for that exact reason. Well, I think, but you have to consider it in context of everything else, which is I think that even though I hadn't gotten a movie like this made, there was kind of a vague idea of people like, well, maybe he could do it. Or like people are like, you know, I do kind of like his stuff. There's sort of this accumulation of having a decent reputation or feeling somewhat competent. So it's like, and I've known Steve for a long time, but we hadn't worked together. And it's just one of those things where it's like just the right time, right thing where they understood the material and saw the potential of it. And I don't know, it's funny because there's other things that you do, which you try so hard to get made, and then nothing happens. And I think that it, you know, like, there's all these different other factors.

And it's also just, Andrew's a really, really good producer, you know. and he's like just really really really obsessive and passionate and very gets like riled up about stuff and he just for some reason really believed in this movie and I think that he has that kind of is like a contagious sort of passion so it's sort of like I had a hype man that I didn't know was hyping it up and I was over here in a corner with Brian just working really hard in the Scott Pilgrim show not even thinking about what I was going to do next and then I was just very fortunate that when that got done, it's like I just shifted into the long headache of how do I make a movie of two Vince Vaughn's kind of stuff.

I wanted to ask you about Vince. It's nice to see him in this register. It's been a little while since he's been specifically in this register. It's also very funny that this is coming on the heels of sinners where there's all this kind of fascination and adulation for what Michael B. Jordan is doing and the filmmaking technique of Cougler with the twins. And you're operating in a somewhat similar mode.

Storyboard artist did sinners, and he also, like, Fury Road and stuff. He's this brilliant guy. And while he was doing my stuff, he's like, oh, yeah, I just finished sinners. And I was like, how was that going? He's like, oh, it's funny. And then he was talking. I was like, oh, wait, there's two Michael B. Jordan's in that. And I'm like, you know, like a month away from shooting.

I was just like, oh, man. I mean, this is different, obviously. But somehow there's like fucking movies with two De Niro's and all these guys. And I'm just like, I didn't know. I wasn't. I didn't know that that was going to be a zeitgeist thing. And also, you don't benefit from anything they learned because we're all siloed off. And we're all on our own little, like, horrible adventure figuring out how the fuck to do that technically.

You can't call Kugler and be like, hey, man, just explain it to me. How does this work? No, we're not on each other's phone list. But I met him after the Creed premiere, and it was one of the coolest things that's ever happened. Like, one, the Creed premiere were like, I remember being there and realizing, what that thing was. And it was one of the most exhilarating nights of my life. And afterwards, I met him and he was like, the nicest, most humble person.

And I watched someone say to him, he's like, oh, you know, Christopher Nolan's here? And he looked like the most excited person who ever lived. And I was like, this guy is going to be so, he's going to be so successful. I'm like, the fact that he just, he seemed like so happy that director he respected had watched the movie. And I was like, how can you be that talented and have that kind of, you know, He's definitely still that humble, but he's also just such a movie nerd. And that's why I think everybody kind of is so drawn to him in that way. But anyway, I mean, I was just a little curious to hear you talk about the idea of shooting the double stuff and how challenging that must be.

I mean, the thing about it is like, okay, doing action is very difficult, but in a great way. Shooting one guy as two people sucks so much shit. You know, it's like, because you want it to feel effortless and you don't want someone to watch it and think, oh, that was difficult. And I'm also working with an actor who can kind of be a little bit loose and it's not like he's going to get every, do every syllable exactly the same way it was written. And you want to encourage him to kind of, you know, don't feel like you have to be so rigid and locked in. But then that process is that. Because, you know, you'll spend six hours shooting one side of the scene with him. and then he has to come back and act against himself.

And then you are like totally locked into a gigantic fucking computer control camera that does the move and has to match the thing. And figuring out how to do that. And within a schedule is just, you know, it requires so much prep. And then you have to pivot sometimes based on like how a scene is going and realizing you have to change your methodology based on performance. And because you don't want to, like, I never want it to feel like Vince was put in a box because of it. And I don't think it feels that way, but that requires a lot of work.

It's one of those things where it's like, I was like doing two movies at once. I was doing a movie that was so easy and fun, which is all the stuff with the gangsters. So, like, I'd have a day that's just with Jimmy Tatro and Lewis and Arturo and Keith David. And it's just like, you're like, the movies. This is the best. and we're just working together and trying to make the scenes as cool and interesting as funny as possible

and you go home at night, well, all that was like 42 nights in a row. And I'm like, this is the best job ever. And then the next day, it's like, okay, so we have to have a crane that fits within the soundstage that goes overhead so he can do a walk and talk, but if we back up this way,

like we won't be able to do this thing, but then I have to go back and Vince gets an earwig and do this thing. And it's sort of like, it was like two jobs at once. It was like a job that was like logistics, and you're trying to be creative and make sure that you're still doing what you want to do. And then one that was just like, do you know sometimes just if you have two people in a scene,

it can be just two different actors? It's just like, how do you make this scene work? So no time travel doubling in the next film? Well, I will say this. When I wrote the script, I turned off the part of my brain that thought about how difficult it would be to execute anything because I just was trying to follow my creative instincts. and that's just what I'm always going to do. It's like, because if you have to somehow separate those things,

because if you are thinking about that too much, it's going to kind of, it's going to keep the stuff from being as good as it can be. Because like, if I'm writing a scene and I'm like, oh, that's going to be hard to do, it'll, like, just get in your way. So it's like I'm trying to avoid that. So basically on my next movie,

I'll probably come back and be like, I don't know why shot in a water tank the whole time. It's going to be like one of those things where it's like, but you know, it's just I had a really great idea involving water. Yeah. A movie starring a kid, a dog, and it takes place on water. Yeah. You should do it. Yeah, no, I'm just going to, it's going to come back and I'm just going to be doing like that

just staring off in the distance. And I was like, I love the movie and I'm proud of it. But man. Airbud water polo movie. That's it, yeah. I do want to talk about the needle drops. I feel very seen by the needle drops in the movie. That's all I can ask for.

Just an emotional like thunderbolt, I think, with some of the choices. Even if they're not even songs that I love, they are referential in a way that I found satisfying. And you were talking about that earlier. How do you make those decisions? Are you writing songs into the script and then getting your heartbroken when you can't get them? I wrote all the songs into the script and then I ended up using about 60% of them. And there's two that I had to clear way early because they're kind of performed. in the movie. So I can't like shoot that and then be like, oh, hey, can I get this song?

Because then it's just like, well, then I don't have a scene. One of them, which is kind of a spoiler, and I'd rather not talk about. I think it's worth mentioning is I do have an oasis song, and I got it before they decided they were going to have a reunion. I think that if I had gotten it later, I would never, I never would have gotten it. And I wouldn't have made the movie without that song. Yeah. My number one karaoke song. Really? Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. I personally like it, obviously, or else I wouldn't have I love that scene. But, you know, it's the music is all kind of part of the same thing, which is I want to make

stuff that feels really, really, really specific. And by specific, I mean, just what feels right to me. And I think that if I'm really following my gut on that stuff about what feels right in the moment tonally or energy-wise or pacing-wise, then I think it'll lead to a movie that doesn't feel generic. You know, I probably, I'm not patting myself on the back because someone might think this is really stupid, but I do think I'm probably the only person who would have put a Dame Matthews song in a strip club. And I really enjoyed that as well. That's just, you know, it, I don't know, it made me laugh really hard. So it's like, I will remember, I did a friends and family screening

really early in New York before I'd like turn in my first cut to the studio because I just wanted to show it to some people and just make sure nothing was confusing them and just sort of like get some feedback to be like, hey, does this thing track for you and just ask some simple questions? But the main value of it was that when that song came on, everybody laughed. And I was like, okay, well, at least I know that someone will be as amused by that as I was. And then I think one of the only notes that I got from a really, really high up Disney person was just make sure he keeps that song in the strip club. It does. I mean, it works.

It works. If it works for you, it works. If it doesn't work for you, I don't know what to say. I saw a really funny thing that someone had posted where they're like, look, I want to love a movie with that many Girl More Girl references, but I can't support a movie when they play Dave Matthews song in a strip club. And I'm like, that's valid. I'm not going to argue with that take. But yeah, it's just all the stuff. What happens is, you know, you pick 29 songs,

and then you have the worst time of your life trying to get all of them. And the amount of phone calls that I had, and then I brought in the music supervisor I'd use on happily. And her job really is she's like a missile aim at a problem, where she's like, right, I'm going to make some calls. And then, you know, 12 hours later, she's like, okay, so I talked to this guy at the labor. and I talked to this person,

but we're trying to show a clip to this guy in the band, and she's just, you know, she's really tenacious. And, like, that was one where I'm like, if Dave Matthews watched this and said he doesn't approve it, I'm in trouble.

And I don't know who watched it and approved it, but somebody, I guess he says no a lot to movies. In fact, I have a director friend who was at the premiere, and he's like, how'd you get that song? He wouldn't let me use a Dave Matthews song in my movie.

And I'm like, I don't think that this is a huge leap to think that he's, he must have thought it was funny. But I also don't ever want to know. Because I don't want to get disappointed and find out he's like, oh, what's that? I didn't see that.

Well, the only story about him in that respect I've heard is Greta Gerwick writing him the letter to use Crash in Lady Bird and that she wrote a very long, an emotional letter to him about how important his music was. And this puts it in a different context than the way it's used in that film. But there's something actually nice about imagining Dave Matthews getting both versions. I got to tell you the opposite of that story, which is what happens. when you write that letter and you're not Greta Gerwig. It saw my first movie,

you might be surprised to learn that it took like 11 months for me to clear all the songs, and it was like a real difficult thing because there was no money. But there was a song that I had a hospital by modern lovers, and I had to write a letter to the band, and it was in the cut,

and it was in the sequence, and it just worked perfectly. And like, I wrote him a letter, and I kept waiting and waiting and waiting to hear back from him. I'm having a brain for it, but the other stuff. Yeah, and then I just ended up having radio silence, and I had to mix the movie 48 hours later, and I didn't have a song there, and I, like, freaked out, and, like, I don't know what to do.

And I, like, watch the scene, and I called my music supervisor, and I was like, the only other song that would ever work is, like, People Ain't No Good by Nick Cave. And she's like, well, like, I know their manager or some shit. And she's like, hold on. And she calls me an hour later, and she's like, I can get that. And I was like, I freaked out. I was, like, doing a victory lap. I was like, oh, my God, this is like a scene. out of a movie. I got this amazing song, and I've never seen it in a movie before. I lock the cut, I mix it. I show the movie to someone. And the first thing they say is, I like that you use the Shrek 2 song. And I was like, the what? I hadn't seen Shrek 2 song. They're like, it was really funny that you decided to use the Shrek 2 song. I'm like, what Shrek 2 song? And I hadn't Googled the song to see if it was in another movie. And then it was like, the first three people who watched the movie mentioned that they love that I used the Shrek 2 song. I'm like, I didn't

know it was a Shrek 2 song. You've ruined my victory lap. So now anytime I watch my own movie, I'm like, hey, here's the Shrek 2 scene. So if he had read that letter and said, yes, I'd have a hospital in my movie. But instead, I'm now forever haunted by the fact that I accidentally put a Shrek 2 song. You have to take that as a W based on the fact that people enjoyed that reference. Yeah, I'm just not part of the... I miss the Shrek generation. I only end up seeing those movies like after I made that because I'm like, well, let me go see what these Shrek things are about.

When our former producer left the show, we did a tribute episode to him and what he wanted to do, and he's a bit younger than us, was talk about Shrek, because it's just an inch behind us. So you're forgiven for not catching it. At that time, there's a thing people don't understand culturally is that in like 2001, two, three, or whatever, it was not cool to see animated movies if you're an adult. And then it shifted. And like, you'd go see like the Incredibles and all this stuff. And by then, it's like, it's like this memory whole thing where I remember people being like, oh, those are like cartoons. And then everyone forgot that adults didn't go see those things.

So like Shrek came out at that last gasp of people feeling like, yeah, I'm 19 and 20. I'm not going to go see a cartoon movie. And then, so yeah, I miss Shrek. I didn't even ask you why should I worry, but I almost don't want to ruin that. That's another, but speaking of animated movies and music and the way in which they infiltrate our minds in an early age. I will say about that opening. You could easily read the script and not know that was what the opening of the movie was

because it was just I wrote one paragraph and I mentioned that he's going around the lab and singing along with the thing. And then I had like this huge elaborate kind of thing that was super boreded and planned out and spent a whole night shooting it. And then I know that there was meetings where people are like, hey, we have like 40 hours of dailies of Ben Schwartz singing a song. Does anyone can what scene is this? That's very funny.

But I can't believe I got that. And I'm still kind of waiting for someone to call me and say, hey, we just realized you put that song in the movie. And I'm like, yeah. Okay. But I also just think this is if only for people have already seen it or a second viewing thing. I think the lyrics of what he's singing, considering how that scene ends, is a, kind of an added joke for me. But yeah.

Let's quickly talk about the step printing shots. So you talked about colliding influences, right? Can I say one thing, though, about those? Yes. Theo Vaughn, is that how you say the guy's name? Yeah, sure. He did a Vince Vaughn, a thing,

and there's a point in it where he is trying to talk about the step printing but doesn't know what it is. and just one of the most charming things I've ever seen is him being like, there's like scenes when the camera and like it, and he's like describing step printing

and I'm just like, this is really charming. Explain it and explain why you wanted it to be in your movie. Well, so there's been some really nice things that people said about the movie where they said, like someone said it feels like if Juan Carwai made like a 90s buddy action movie. And look, I love Juan Carwai. When I was in London,

I saw Chunking Express at the Prince Charles Theater I think it's a masterpiece but I have to be honest about my influences is I've been obsessed with step printing since I saw this movie called Warriors of Virtue because Ronnie Yu who did The Bride with White Hair

which I saw after which is a perfect movie I remember sitting in a theater and watching Warriors of Virtue and being like what the fuck is happening where he was doing the step printing thing which is what happens to step printing is some people who watch it

think it's in something slow motion but it's also just because I can't begrudge someone not for not having a vocabulary for what it is because it is a weird thing is that you basically there's 24 frames in a second and so when you're shooting it's like there's successive frames you know 24 in a row but when you're doing step printing it's like you repeat a frame for three times like because i was doing it with eight frames within a second so it would be like a frame will be three seconds long than three seconds long, I mean three frames long. So you're basically getting these bits of motion where it's kind of becomes, see, I'm even explaining it poorly, but basically it creates this kind of surreal

feeling for motion where everything is happening and normal time, but you're skipping frames. So it creates a sort of weird dreamlike thing. It's almost like a flip-book motion a little bit. And it's just one of those things where it's like, I just, it just felt like a thing to do, and it also just felt like, you know, why not try it. We're in such a homogenized time of content consumption that when something like this pops up, I mean, we're not used to it. We don't understand it. That people are like, what the fuck? And I'm surprised that nobody was like, take this out. Well, there was discussions about it, and there was more.

in an earlier cut. Being perfectly honest, I'm saying that the movie is like the exact movie I wanted to make. There was definitely, I had pushed that a little bit further in a way that I understand that people maybe wanted a little bit more restraint with it. But I think that everything about the movie to me is I try to not think about, I try not to have that fear of, well, this might not be for everyone. because I think with movies like this right now it becomes so like, well, we have to grab them

and they have to know the plot at the two minute and 30 second mark and we have to make sure we don't make any choices that might alienate a couple people. And I just have to follow my gut and my gut was I just thought it was aesthetically interesting and I thought it was additive and it made... To me, it just felt right instinctually and you just sort of keep chasing things that feel correct to you

and then hope some other people will respond to it or at least respond to the same. swing of it, you know. Makes total sense. A couple more for you before we go. You see a lot of movies. I follow you on Letterbox. Yeah, I do watch a little bit too many.

I would actually, I came home and would watch a movie. I did 42 nights in a row, and then I was, it was October in the second half of the shoot, and I would get home at 8 a.m. And I would watch a movie, so I'd watch all the Friday the 13th movies in a row because it was that. And I would throw on something. It was like 90 minutes long, and I would watch a movie, then go to bed. which is probably stupid.

I don't make movies, but that's what I do every night too. So it's no big deal. But you watch movies? That's crazy. I've listened to this and I never picked up on it. I know, I know. You thought this was just a gardening show. How are you feeling about the state of movie going? How are you feeling about your film being a movie that's going to streaming,

even though you've been able to show it in movie theaters? Like how do you feel the whole kitten caboodle? Well, look, there's two things that I really love. I love movie theaters and I love physical media. and I'm sitting here talking about a movie that's coming out and streaming. And that's the reality of it. But you can put that in a box and you can say, okay, yes, obviously I would prefer to see this movie in 40X. Yes, I did make this movie for audiences.

But I also got to make a movie that is a big action comedy where no considerations were ever made for any of that bullshit. it. No one ever came, like, I think the first big laugh is like 13 minutes into the movie. No one was ever like, oh, well, you know someone's going to turn it off if they don't know this by this point. There was never, ever a discussion about anything except how to make the best version of this movie. And I basically just put my whole brain into that, which is I was just thinking, I never thought about streaming. I never thought about anyone watching their laptop. I never thought about anyone watching on their phone. I just tried to make the movie that I wanted to make in a movie that felt right and correct to me. And, you know, we can get into the state of the business and I think movie

theater is the best thing in the world. And I think there's nothing better than seeing a movie with a crowd. And this is a really good crowd movie. But I also have to put all my energy into the work. And it's like, you know, when Soderberg quit, he quit because he didn't like making movies anymore. And then he realized that he's like, no, I like movies. Just the business is like stressing me out. And that's, I spent a long time like talking about the state of the business. And, you know, we have some mutual friends who like, like, you know, like Griff and I will just sit and like talk about shit for fucking hours about it. But I realize that if I just try as much as possible, put my brain into making a movie I'm proud of and try not to get in my head about any of those

things, then that was just it. Because it's like a big movie studio, let me make a big action movie that has a very long scene with people discussing Gilmore Girls. So that's the win, you know, even though is a very good crowd movie and I think it really plays on the big screen. So both the things are true and the thing that is the most important thing is that I was supported creatively. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't wish it.

didn't wish I could, everyone could see it in 40X, you know. So. I can't really do 40X anymore. My back is too bad, honestly. I'm just, I wish I was built different, but I'm not. I just saw all three Lord of the Rings extended editions in 40X. So I did like four hours in the theater. You're so real. I respect it. But it's part of the reason I ended up moving to New York is, well, the first night I was there, uh, Griffin and I saw Red 1 in 40X. And I walked down like, that was really fun. The experience of that was really... Yeah. And it became this thing where we had like a 40x group chat.

And then we pick the new movies that seem right to do it. Sometimes it's really great. And sometimes it's like, what are we doing here, guys? Before I ask you, what's the last great thing you've seen? Do you have a Keith David story for me? I really feel like your movie gets Keith David in a way that I appreciate. Well, I'm going to tell you as a guy who has a they live tattoo. Just drafted in a draft yesterday.

The thing about casting this movie is sometimes, because you're making a studio movie, and what happens is you come to a table with a list of actors you want, and then they come to a table with a list of actors that if you cast, we will greenlight it. And then the joy is when there's overlap, you know? And with that one, there was a moment when someone said,

I think it was someone at the studio, they're like, well, Keith Dave is available, would you be able to and you cast him? And I was like, hold on, hold him. you guys are saying like I could I could get Keith David for this and I was like the second I knew that that was like an approved actor for it I'm like let's fucking go

and I was like doing the Chris Farley show with him the whole time like in between takes like I'd pull a chair up next time like all right so is it true that the rumor that you had a fight scene in Roadhouse that got cut out and he's like well and then he would tell me a story and you know there's a line in the movie when he says Michael B Street Pizza by morning

And I put that in there because he was talking about gargoyles. And he's like, you know what the best thing was about gargoyles? He's like, I like, when someone called someone street pizza, and I was like, and I just was like, okay, interesting. And then I was like, by the way, I rewrote this scene. And he looks at it and he goes, he's like, you added street pizza to my line? I was like, yeah. And he was like so happy.

Dude, he, when he wasn't shooting, would call me and ask how it was going and say, hey, I just miss you guys. What's going on with the shoot? And he's the only guy in the show in the movie who'd seen Gilmore Girls from beginning to end multiple times. And he has a cat who his daughters would call his son. Like, oh, yeah, your son's over there. So he's a cat guy, loves to go more girls, and he's Keith David.

So it was just an accidental, perfect storm of perfect. And, you know, the thing about it that I love is I needed someone who could be imposing and someone who could be funny. And those are kind of contradictory things. And he has a lot of presence as a bad guy. And I think he's just really funny. I remember, like, Jimmy Tatro, like, on the end of the first day working with him, he's like, So he's like a comedy actor, right? Keith? And I was like, actually, you know, yes.

I mean, you get to like talking to stuff like he's like, yeah, the first time people let me be funny was men at work. And it's like, all right, Keith David, can we talk about men at work? What that was like? And then you just talk about making men at work. Yeah. The biggest reason that you should try to be a successful director or filmmaker is you can get away with that kind of shit. If I was just a dude on the street and you walk up to Keith David, I'm like, hey, can I talk about Roadhouse? be like, get the fuck away from me.

But it's like, hello, sir, starring in my movie. Can I ask you questions about shooting Roadhouse? He honestly looks exactly the same as he did 40 years ago. And that's the other thing, too, is like, he's kind of preserved in amber so you've been able to port this presence from a lot of these movies that you feel so connected to into your movie. Also, he and Jimmy are so funny together. I, this is the level of responsible I am. I cut that stuff down, even though it's my favorite shit. the world because it's just pacing matters.

And I could have been really indulgent and kept every frame of everything those guys did because I love every fucking frame of it. There's so much funny stuff with them that I couldn't justify keeping in because you can only stay away from kind of the main plot so long, but I also could just watch a whole movie of those two guys being those two guys.

So that becomes the real thing where it's like, I can't actually be indulgent. Like the stuff, anything in the movie that is sort of, quote-unquote indulgent is also functional. I can't justify having like six straight minutes of those guys just being father and son, even if it just, you'd play it for people,

and it would get bigger laughs than anything. But you also are like, we got to get back to the stuff. You gave us enough. Yeah. Okay, Ben David, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? As I mentioned, you consume a lot of movies.

I'd forgotten about this because I haven't had much. sleep and I've been doing so much press this week and then my assistant who's also producer on the movie Mal texted me and she goes so what's your what are you going to say at the end about your favorite thing I was like oh fuck and then I immediately for some reason I thought of and it feels also connected to the movie is I watched Wick's Pain again. Have you seen that? I have so when I was on my way to South by I put it on my iPad and can you explain what it is so WIC is this documentary about the making of the John Wick series, which I have, like, a lot of strong feelings about those movies, and I could talk about

them for like 10 hours. I was at Fantastic Fest at that first screening when, like, people realize, oh, this is a thing where everyone laughed when he said, oh, when I went to Paris, I guess this is a good way to explain my insanity, I went to Paris for the first time, and what I did was I went to all the shooting locations from John Wick 4 because and someone's like oh this is where they shot amalie i'm like yeah yeah yeah but that's like this is the church from the the thing um and i'm just really really fascinated by those movies i think four is truly a masterpiece just all caps masterpiece and i even remember when i heard what the running time was i'm like oh they're they're finally going to fuck this up this is

just there's no way they can justify it being that long and then i remember walking out of the theater i'm Like, that was exact length that should be. If anyone complains about the length, I'm going to get a big argument with you. But, anyway, the doc covers all of it. And it is so candid in a way that I don't understand how it exists. It is so interesting. And it's really, I just, I'm just, I think it's so cool that they're honest about, you know, conflicts and all these things. How hard it was, yeah, how much they fucked up.

And it and I just, but I find it very inspiring. like, and I was like watching it before I went to South by it's kind of this trick you do. You're like, well, in case the screening doesn't go as well I wanted to or if the case I get caught up on this, I kind of do things to remind myself, you know, like, what I care about. So I'm like, I'm going to rewatch Wicca's Pain. And I was like sitting on a plane watching.

And I was just like, these movies are so cool. So cool seeing how they shot them. Oh my God, a bunch of my stunt guys are in these shots. And it just like, it was very like, it's like very centering for me. But I think that if you like action, filmmaking at all, or like those movies, think it's really interesting. And I think it's a rare kind of candid look at kind of what, you know, all the hard work and interpersonal conflict, all these things that happen when you're making

shit like this, you know. It's a great answer. It's a really great documentary. And David, thanks for doing this. Thanks for being here. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't, this was the interview I cared the most about. If anyone else who interviewed me, here's this, I'm sorry. But I was so excited about this and this felt like the perfect way to end my promotional tour, then go to the airport. Yeah, thanks for having me, man. Congratulations. Thanks to Ben David Grubinsky. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders for his work on this episode.

Thanks to Luke's Kavanaugh for production support. We'll be back on Friday to break down the drama. And the other drama, the Super Mario Galaxy movie, the Alpha and the Omega of April at the movies. We'll see you then.