The Big Picture - The Best Picture Match Game With Sam Esmail

Episode Date: May 11, 2021

After his triumphant introduction of the movie director game, Sam Esmail rejoins Amanda and Sean to discuss his 2020 movie-watching experiences, his favorites films of the year, how the medium could change after the pandemic, and what value the Oscars do or don't have. He covers all this with the aid of a helpful new exercise: The Best Picture match game. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Sam Esmail Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's music critic Rob Harvilla curates and explores 60 iconic songs from the 90s that define the decade. Rob is joined by a variety of guests to break it all down as they turn back the clock. Check out 60 songs that explain the 90s exclusively on Spotify. What's in this McDonald's bag? The McValue Meal. For $5.79 plus tax, you can get your choice of Junior Chicken, McDouble, or Chicken chicken snack wrap, plus small fries and a small fountain drink. So pick up a McValue meal today at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada. Prices exclude delivery.

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the future of movies. Amanda, we have to start the show with some breaking news this morning. It's Monday, and we just learned that ABC has notified the world that they will not be airing the Golden Globes in 2022. The network said this in a statement Monday morning. And the reasons for this are obvious. We've been talking about the problems of the Golden Globes for a number of months here, in part, the scope of their membership, how they decide what

films should be nominated, some of the conduct of some of their members over the years. What's your reaction to this news that NBC is holding the Globes? I am a little bit surprised, even though over the weekend, individual celebrities and studios have been kind of coming out against the Golden Globes and specifically the Hollywood Foreign Press Association saying they would no longer participate until there was like meaningful reform. And it did seem like this was the year that people were finally taking a lot of longstanding allegations against the Hollywood Foreign Press Association seriously. But I don't think that I expectedc to just to walk away as quickly and we should

say that at the time of recording what we know is that according to their statement they will not be airing the 2022 golden globes and this is from the statement assuming the organization executes on its plan we are hopeful we will be in a position to air the show in jan 2023. So it seems like they have not yet completely torn up the contract. And basically, we just don't know totally what this means beyond this statement. Yeah, the HFPA has made a commitment over an 18-month period to redefine its membership, to reimagine the way that they are organized and the way that they reward certain films and certain television shows, most of the studios have replied that this is simply not enough and not fast enough.

Some of the biggest studios and streamers have issued statements. Warner Media most recently, also Amazon and Netflix and many others have come out and said that the HFPA needs to do better if it wants to continue to have these studios participate in its award season, among other things. This is an interesting thing. I mean, the Hollywood Foreign Press and the Golden Globes, we've talked about this. We've been making fun of this organization for years. I mean, it has been a kind of self-dealing joke, a kind of well-known clown show for a long time. And obviously, some of the problems that have been taking place are quite nefarious and unfortunate and morally complex. And some of them are just kind of your typical run-of-the-mill kind of self-dealing garbage and so there is i guess some nuance ultimately to this conversation

about what are the things that need to be fixed immediately that will be and how will we recognize whether things are properly fixed who is vetting these things it's a little bit hard to say i'm always a little bit skeptical when it seems like it's curtains for such a longstanding institution that most people will not have a ton of awareness of this story. They'll just watch the Globes the next time they see them on TV. There are very few shows now that can still draw 10 million viewers. And so it still has a kind of power in that respect. On the other hand, these have been pretty forceful statements that have been issued and the reporting is deep on the problems within this Hollywood Foreign Press Association for years and not just the gift bags,

but allegations of sexual assault and racism and terrible things that have been in public. And for some reason, this seems to be the year where it's all sticking. So on the other hand, this is also the year where the Golden Globes had their lowest ratings ever. And obviously that was because of a pandemic. And as you said, there are not many

television shows that can get 10 million viewers, but 10 million viewers is probably not what NBC had in mind when they signed the multi-year deal that pays in which they reportedly pay the Hollywood Foreign Press Association $60 million a year for $10 million for 10 million viewers. And I am wondering whether there's some accounting going on at NBC and whether they're like, okay, maybe this is just not how we want to spend this money going forward. And, you know, I don't think that you or I want the Hollywood Foreign Press Association around anymore. So if that's what it takes, I'm okay with it. But I would agree with you that there are questions and how it's all going to pan out and what the motivations are, are not clear at this particular

moment. Yeah, like every other corporately managed body, these groups are going through a major reckoning. The Academy has been going through a major reckoning for the last six or seven years. The HFPA is going through an even more tumultuous reckoning. And I don't know. It seems we won't see the show next year. I personally won't miss it all that much. I do think that something can potentially rise in its place. Maybe we can talk about what that will be in the future. In the meantime, we'll cover this story as it continues to develop on the show. But let's go to something a little bit lighter. Let's bring in our guest. Let's welcome the great Sam Esmail.

Back on the show for the first time since I believe he was our last guest before quarantine hit. It's the creator of Mr. Robot, among many other things. It's the great Sam Esmail. Sam, how are you oh i'm doing well how are you guys doing i missed you guys we missed you too uh sam i was thinking back on the last time we saw you in person and um the world was different then and it was like about a couple weeks before the world went to shit right I want to say it was like the end of February, right?

Last year. I would have said at least two years ago. That's like, which honestly maybe at this point was, you know, right before quarantine. I don't know. It's become cliche to be like, I've lost sense of time. But wow, it really does feel like a different life. We're glad you're back

here. You are an avowed cinephile and a person who thinks deeply about the stuff that we talk about on this show all the time. So we have a lot to talk about today. I thought we should start, especially since it's been such a complicated, trying and weird year for movies. And it does seem like we are potentially on the precipice of coming out of the weirdness. So Amanda and I screamed and yelled a lot about the future of movies, movie theaters. We lost our minds. We were confused, concerned. The HBO Max news hit last fall, and we had a proper meltdown about that.

And you've been very vocal about HBO Max's decision to go day and date in theaters and at home on a streaming service and i i wanted to give you a forum to kind of talk through this because it seems like you may have been right but i want to hear your your pitch in full on this i just i i never i never think limiting options to people is a good thing. I don't understand. I just don't even understand how, uh, uh, even business wise,

that makes sense because the people that are going to want to see it in the movie theaters, like myself, like, like the two of you, you're going to go fucking see the movie theaters. I don't care if it's on HBO max. Like I assume you will still go to the theaters regardless.

I mean, you've done it already, right? Not yet. You've seen Netflix movies. Like, I assume you will still go to the theaters regardless. I mean, you've done it already, right? Not yet. You've seen Netflix movies. No, no, no, no. I'm not even, I'm saying pre-pandemic. There were Netflix movies where you went to the theaters to see the movie. And, you know, I've, I've, um, I've listened to interviews with filmmakers who went and saw the Irishman in the theater. I saw the Irishman in the theater. So that's not going to change. So the idea that somehow one cannibalizes the other is ridiculous. And the fact that we're going to hold off on films where there are going to be some locations around the world and even in this country where people don't have access to theaters and specifically smaller films that are going to be maybe playing smaller outhouse theaters and the

fact that they have to wait in this ridiculous i never liked it even as a kid i mean do you remember back in the day the theatrical window was some ridiculous two-year two-year window from theater and that was just because they kept re-releasing it in theaters that is just a punitive thing by the theater business to force this monopoly on you it's not as if they're offering some compelling argument for you to come in and spend their money other than we have it and you can't have it and that i just i just on principle hate that but look at what look at what happened with and everyone like got angry at hbo max and warner runners for doing what they're doing right now the day and date releases but look at godzilla that made a good i mean who would have thought that was the movie that was going to save

us from the pandemic or save movie theaters from the pandemic but that made a lot of money in the theaters and it was free on or not free but on your your HBO max subscription so I think it just sort of proves the point but weirdly it's not really making any changes I feel like the theatrical windows are now creeping back in again I mean I think they're smaller right I think they're playing around with a 45 day model or something like that I just I don't get it it's so silly to me I find I find it very trivial and silly i find it like i think if a moviegoer wants to see a movie they should have every opportunity to see it and and pay i mean i think a lot of people would pay i mean i rented i don't know about you guys but i rented

a lot of movies i paid the 20 bucks or whatever um you know i i i just i just think they're a leaving money on the table and b i just think just think in general, for moviegoers, it's just a better business model to have as many access channels as possible to the movies they want to see. Do you think it limits... I'm asking this for both of you guys, because do you think it limits the kind of movie that can be successful in a theatrical experience?

Because, for example, there is another new release coming on HBO Max this week. Can you name what the new release is, Sam? Do you know what's coming out on Friday? I don't know the title because it's super long, but it's the Angelina Jolie movie. Yes, yes. Those Who Wish Me Dead. Yes. It's funny, Sam.

I couldn't remember the title either, but I do. Angelina Jolie, Taylor Sheridan. Yeah. I don't love sentence titles either, but I do. Angelina Jolie, Taylor Sheridan. Yeah. I don't love sentence titles. You know, titles are sentences. But anyway, that's another pod. Do you want to hold that against you in the future? I mean, I'm asking that because I am curious if anybody besides the three of us nerds know about that movie.

It does not seem like there's a ton of awareness. And so that movie also will go into theaters and also hit HBO Max simultaneously. It feels like the kind of movie that most people would say, I actually don't have to leave my house for this. I'm going to watch it at home. Now that gives people what they want, which you identified, Sam. But as far as the theatrical experience goes, I don't think people are really going to show up for that movie.

And they've not been incentivized to show up. Well, let's talk about that. And I think this is actually a bigger conversation about movie making in general but i think when people and this is just my opinion from for anecdotally from people who i speak to that are not in the industry that every once in a while i go to the movies i ask what what makes you want to go see x y and z and the common sort of you know I'm paraphrasing but the refrain seems to be I want to get the most bang for my buck and to me that means I want to see expensive shit on the screen and that's not a character drama right even though that might be a better movie it's not as expensive right I and I think that usually translates to a lot of CGI, a lot of action set pieces. And if it's not any of that, then mean, I won't go down the 70s road, right, just a second.

But back then, The Godfather was the number one movie of the year when it won. I cannot imagine a three-hour drama, even if it was about the mob, being the number one movie at the box office of the year. That just doesn't exist anymore. And so I think the argument now to get people into the... It seems to me it has to be this sort of special effects extravaganza because that feels more expensive.

And so I think you're right. Unfortunately, I do think more character pieces or even Angelina Jolie film does look like it has a lot of action in it. It does have scale. Yeah. It does have scale,

but I don't think to the level of Avengers. And I really think it needs to be that or Godzilla. And we saw the success of Godzilla. I think, I think there's like that equation right now on everyone's head, but it has to satisfy that for me to sit in the seat. They're not going to see a documentary. That's for sure.

I mean, that's just, it feels cheap. Doesn't feel like I'm getting the most bang for my buck. That's my theory. I don't know. You guys agree, disagree.

No, I agree with you. And I, I have a followup question for you, Sam, like as a movie lover- That's why romantic comedies died, by the way, because of that.

Right, right. And comedies. Totally. And in some ways, the romantic comedy is a great example, right? Because number one, it's my interest set. But also number two, it has supposedly had like a quote,

renaissance on streaming, right? And it was a type of movie that they couldn't justify financially making at the box office. And then a smaller budget or a targeted audience on streaming, like you can, it's quote unquote back. I have to be honest with you, with the exception of a few romantic comedies, including last year, Palm Springs and Happiest Season, they all suck. They're like not good. And they are not the level of Nora Ephron movies of yore. They're not even like the weird Kate Hudson

mid-2000s rom-coms of yore. And I have to tell you, those movies don't hold up. But so that's what I wanted to ask you, Sam. Like as a filmmaker, as much of a moviegoer, what effect do you think this has on the movies that move to streaming? Because that is the consequence of, okay, we're what effect do you think this has on the movies that move to streaming? Because that is the consequence of, okay, we're only going to do blockbusters and big things like at the theater is that we have this opportunity, but how do you make smaller

movies and are they different and are they different standards? And you know, unfortunately, I'm giving you the answer that i think a lot of people uh say nowadays which is it goes to tv yeah right so the the they're you know the romantic comedies are turning into you know high i mean high fidelity was a series one season series and delightful and um and normal people series you know those are the new formats for these more character-centric type of movies of yesteryear right um and i don't i yeah i don't know why the one-off features in the streamers although to be fair and i don't watch them but aren't there like some hits on there like kissing Kissing Booth, isn't that a romantic comedy that has like five sequels or something?

Totally. Yes, they are hits. People watch them. And I do not want to be the person to denigrate making content for 17-year-olds in America. 17-year-olds in America have a really hard time, especially 17-year-old girls are not being served by Hollywood. And it's great that they have something, but those movies are akin to what would be made on Lifetime,

like Lifetime movies from 15 years ago in terms of quality, in terms of production, you know. Yes, you're right. Look, I'll admit ignorance here. I haven't watched a lot of the rom-coms that are on the streamers, but I do, but as, as a filmmaker, I'm saying, I think a lot of the people that would have been the Nora Ephron's are going into TV because. Totally. So we can move it past rom-coms. That was just, you know, an example where I know all the proper nouns but it's like so if if all of the

things that we like that would have been you know adult character study dramas 20 years ago are now great tv shows that we also love but they're tv shows on streaming then like what happens to movies sam um i mean i'm sorry that i like us off the cliff so early. No, it's a fair question. I mean, are you talking about the theater? Because look, I think you're always going to have... I think Noah Baumbach is going to be making movies for Netflix or whomever he wants.

Sam, he's adapting White Noise right now. God bless him. God bless him. God bless him. Oh, white noise, huh? Okay, that's a choice. I'm going to watch it. Did you just learn? Was that like your reaction

to learning that Noah Baumbach? I did not know that. That was really great. I kind of feel like we should just do a podcast where we tell everybody that Noah Baumbach is adapting white noise and just respond to the reaction. Mine was great.

It was like 1030 at night, and Sean and Chris texted me to let me know. And I was like, what the hell? So, yeah. Anyway, take as much time as you need, Sam. I mean, look, we talked a little bit about this when we did the director game, right? I bemoan the fact that there are a lot of talented. I mean, look, Chloe Zhao incredibly talented filmmaker what is she doing? A Marvel movie

Eternals, yes I mean, and there are amazing filmmakers young filmmakers that are coming up in the system and they're being shuffled into the superhero industry complex

I don't know what to say. I do feel like you're either going to go down that road to be a successful movie filmmaker, putting aside TV for a second, but if you want to go down the more PTA road or even Tarantino road, those options seem to be thinning out a lot, which is why I'm sort of embracing the sort of intersection of streaming and

theatrical releases. I do think that kind of will open up an opportunity for filmmakers who make their first indie. And I want to talk about, you know, to update our movie director game. I have some picks already for this decade that made some amazing directorial debuts this this uh this past year that i hope they don't go down the road of making star wars sequels or marvel sequels i mean maybe you know do a one-off but like look at ryan coogler like fruit veil brilliant and creed great black panther great but now he's in Black Panther

too I just I feel like I what what happened to those career paths that could have been you know if if Coogler was born in the 90s or I'm sorry not born in but came came into his own in the 90s but what what kind of career would have looked like? I don't think those opportunities are there right now. Again, I circle back to, I think in a weird way, this whole theatrical window shrinking streaming thing might be a good thing because there might be more chances on interesting films rather than just the sort of assembly line. Let's shuffle them into making sequels or adaptations or prequels or whatever. Let me ask you this. This is encroaching a little bit on Chris and Andy's territory, but

obviously we've been talking about the superhero industrial complex consuming and subsuming a lot of talent over the last 10 years. But frankly, the three biggest things in our culture over the last six months... Come say hi. Emmy wants to say hi. I'm on a podcast. You're on a podcast?

Yeah, yeah. Like right now? So can I just tell... Can we do a side story first? Come here. Yeah, of course. So I just want... So we moved into our apartment

and we have a movie theater now. First time ever in our home, like a real movie theater. Wow. I'm so jealous. Dolby Atmos. Oh my God. Sound 4k, like, like a real theatrical projector.

And then I asked you, I was like, you get to pick the first movie we're going to see in the theater. What was your pick? Notting Hill. Yes! I mean, yes! I'm Amanda, by the way. Hi.

Nice to meet you. That's the last brownie! So good. I've never seen it. No, I saw it, but I had the only chance. You remembered it being more Hollywood. Right. And it was actually kind of more indie than I remember.

Yeah, like there's no big set piece or production number. Okay, so then the second night. Again, we have a Dolby Atmos, like beautiful. He's like, do you want to see Star Wars? Or Blade Runner? What was your second? My Best Friend's Wedding. Yes!

A great soundtrack. I had the CD. So you're making use of the sound. It's great. It's amazing. Say a little prayer for you. By the way, I love that movie. I know.

I really like it. It's really good. Okay, yes. You reunited Julia and Dora. It's all your fault. Okay. Bye, Emmy. Thank you.

All right. I have to do that. Quick segue. It's really good. The Julia roberts film festival really special um before that beautiful interlude i was asking you a very serious question which is um i feel like the biggest things in the culture they used to be julia roberts movies that you and your partner can watch together and now they they are The Mandalorian and Falcon and the Winter Soldier and WandaVision. And so now this stuff that we're talking about is in your airspace too. It's in TV and

it feels like it's only going to be more in TV in the next 10 years. Does that concern you at all? I mean, on the one hand, it concerns me because I'm such a movie lover but on the other hand i've learned to really love tv in the last 20 years i mean don't you guys find like a lot of tv shows i mean i kind of think the sopranos is the sort of godfather of today like that's an excellent television series that really i think can go head to head with the godfather in a lot of ways with the filmmaking and the writing and the performances and i can do that across the line with The Wire and Breaking Bad. I don't want to bore you because we are on a, I don't want to get Chris and Andy too jealous, but unfortunately, or fortunately, maybe this is just the way the business has evolved.

I do think in a weird way, movies are going to end up being... I want to clarify something, because I did say it tends to be these superhero CGI movies. The other genre that weirdly does well theatrically, which I haven't really figured out, and Sean, I know you're a big fan of the horror genre, but it does feel like that's the one

exception to the rule. That doesn't necessarily need to look expensive, but people will go to the theaters for it, and maybe that's because of the communal experience of, you know, being... But I think comedies were a communal experience. Don't you love going to a great big comedy?

Like, you know, there's something about... I mean, I remember those screenings back in the day, and just the whole screen... the whole theater just dying with laughter. I loved that. And just the whole screen. The whole theater just dying with laughter. I love that. And for whatever reason. That's just not the case anymore. I mean comedies don't do well anymore.

So I don't really get the horror exception. I'm glad it's there. I have a theory for sure about both of those things. Which is that comedy taste over the last 20 years. Has been completely atomized. You can get your very own discreet. Very specific version of what you find funny. In a lot of places now, on TV, on podcasts. There are a lot of different ways to figure out what you think is funny, and you don't need to

do it with someone. Whereas with horror, horror is still kind of a homogenized, there's only like 10 ways to skin that cat. And so big franchises still work and also found footage, small budget movies still work. I'm pumped up about the new Conjuring movie in June. That's really soon. I can't wait to see that movie in a movie theater. That movie is designed to be seen in a movie theater. So you're right. That's still going to work.

I don't know, Amanda, any theories on why comedy has vanished? One argument, and I don't even know whether I fully believe this, but I'm just going to say it for the sake of the podcast. But you could say that comedy is an example where TV or at-home watching or something other than the studio movie in a theater experience has improved the genre. Because we remember all the great studio comedies that work. But think about all the times you sat in the theater and you made it not even to like minute 60 of the comedy, but like minute 37. And you've gotten through the premise and they've used all the jokes. And you're just like there for another like 60 to 90 minutes, right? And you're just stuck there and they don't have it.

And that's okay. Like we got used to that. And sometimes there is fun in like being in minute 100 of a comedy. That's just like trying stuff and you don't know why you're here and you're thinking about what you're going to have for dinner and like, you know, whatever, you don't have to be committed in the way that you say have to be committed to the Irishman for, you know, three hours, but like it didn't totally match the medium always. And when you're at home, you can watch a 30 minute version of it or a two minute version of it. You can do your TikTok thing. As Sean said, you can watch a talk show, a podcast, read a thing. So I do miss the communal

aspect of it. But like in some ways, maybe we're getting better and at least more personalized to Sean's point comedy than we were 25 years ago. I will also add that you bring up a good point. When a comedy isn't good and you've spent

however much money to go to that theater and see that comedy, I mean, that really sucks, right? It's a bummer. Yeah. I think when people go to an action movie and it sucks,

at least they got to see some cool action, some cool CGI thing. And maybe that goes for horror too. Yeah, I've seen some horror. Look, I watch a lot of horror movies. A lot of them are bad. But I get some scares and some creepy shit happening that I enjoy. And so that's the takeaway maybe with rom-coms and and comedies in general there is no takeaway if it's bad it's just as bad

and you just want to leave it's not funny it's awkward you're right i've hit that 60 minute mark and i'm like i don't am i going to do this for another 60 minutes i mean they're just like really missing all the jokes. And weirdly, like that's where we can say, you know, that's where the overlap with TV comes into play, right? Because I just watched, we just watched Girls 5 Ever, and we couldn't stop watching it. And it's hilarious.

And I'm not saying they hit every joke, but it's, you know, it's, it doesn't cost me anything to watch it again, other than the subscription fee. What I'm saying is it's like, it doesn't cost me time and transportation and money at the box office. You know, it's an, it's an easier way. And, and maybe, maybe that's the delineation. I don't know what this means in general for the future of filmmaking. I don't, I hope to God there is some weird resurgence.

And I do think my money is on this streaming overlap will save the day in some weird convoluted way. Let's talk about your past 15 months of movie watching and movie non-going. What did you like? How did you watch? Were you watching all the time? What was your experience like? Oh, yeah. I think I told you this on the last last time i was here i watched

and try and watch at least one thing every day whether it's a movie or an episode of something or a couple episodes or something um i went to the drive yeah go for it i was gonna ask about can you talk about the circumstances in which you watch something? Like, are you a phones in the other room? Do you have snacks? Will you take breaks? Like what's your, you're like a, it's like you're going to church. Snacks, breaks. Yeah.

Well, no, no, no. I mean, you know, I don't need it to be like, we got to turn off all the phones and we got to just focus 100% of the time. Like, I think the movie should make me do that. The onus is on the movie for me. And by the way, having the theater now is a luxury, obviously, but

it does... And this is why I miss movie theaters. Half the time... When you're on your couch and the TV's there and it's not as big and the sound isn't as captivating, you're on your couch and the tv's there and it's not as big and you know and the sound isn't as captivating you're probably going to wander and your your your mind's going to go elsewhere but when you're in a theater environment the lights are like god right it is dark and the

sound is enveloping you it makes you sit up a little bit more and it and you i do not i do not look at my phone at all I want to watch the thing I want to experience the thing that is the magic of going to theaters that's what I hope somehow this we don't lose that in the shuffle I do I just think it's easier to do it when it's on a tv and it's like over there in a wall and it's like you know, not encompassing your environment. You know, I, I asked because I'm heartened to learn that you also like struggle when there's like, when there are 8 million things else going on in the room and that you can't, cause I like, I have that problem. And I think a lot of people at home, that is one of the things, if you don't have the

right environment, you don't lose yourself to whatever you're watching in the same way. Um, but I thought that was a personal failing no no by the way I think that's why tv took off in a lot of ways because it's uh you know it's in shorter chunks right right so it sort of works really well for home viewing and and I it's hard again it's hard to be all encompassing in a thing when you're just watching it on a TV and other things can interfere. I don't know. Yeah. I don't, I wouldn't feel bad, Amanda. You're totally right to feel distracted. I will allow that. What were the things that had you not looking at your phone during that time? I mean, okay. So we're talking about my favorites of 2020.

Yeah. Yeah. What were your favorites? Have you got... Did you got... I don't remember you got... And this is probably my pick for best director debut this decade so far. I mean, it's a young decade.

But have you guys talked about miss juneteenth no but maybe very maybe in passing over in the fall so you guys have seen it but didn't love it we actually just talked about it with wesley a couple weeks ago i think amanda if tell me if you disagree but i think we both really really like nicole bahari but didn't necessarily click with the movie i fucking loved it man i fucking loved it and I think so why Annie and Jeffrey Peoples is going to be a fantastic filmmaker

I just think the sense of the storytelling was so crisp the dialogue there's very little exposition yet she told you everything

you needed to know about each what was going on in every scene and what the dynamic was she was always a step ahead in this really smart scene and what the dynamic was she was always a step ahead in this really smart way i thought the filmmaking was incredibly tender and and yet at the same time

sophisticated she actually reminds me a lot of lumet like in a weird way because she she's like all about the performances but she does not forsake the visuals either. She has just like strikes. To me, she struck a very good balance that felt like I was watching a very mature filmmaker. And then I Googled it after and discovered she was, this was her first film. So I was,

I was blown away. And I, and I thought Nicole was, I mean, her performance was excellent. Excellent. But I remember it was just one of those movies where I just kept turning to Emmy and just saying, God damn, that was a good scene.

And then, you know, after you do that a few times, you're just like, God damn, it's a good fucking movie. This is just a fucking excellent movie. And I just was drawn in. And by the way, I will say like, it's a kind of a movie that it follows a certain, I don't know what it is, coming of age or slice of life type of formula. But it felt not completely non-formulated to me. It felt pretty fresh to me.

I'd never quite seen it done in that way. Anyway, yeah, I was like over the moon about that movie i think my favorite still might be i'm thinking of ending things i i think you guys talked about that and maybe a little on the fence i thought he was brought by the way i think charlie kaufman's all three all of his films synecdoche and we're gonna get to that in a second later on but um and anima lisa did you guys see that movie yes this is the this is like this is my favorite and this is not amanda's coming no no i was re looking through the list in order to like guess and i was just like i'm sure sam but i i love that i know that

you loved i'm thinking of ending things and i love that you guys have this moment and I love Jesse Buckley and I love Jesse Plemons Jesse it's Jesse Plemons who's in I'm Thinking of Ending Things right yeah I love both Jesses and it just it was one of the most irritating two hours of 2020 for me and that's really saying something but that's okay that's the power of cinema and in some ways that it got opposite reactions from both of us at home in the year 2020 is like proof that movies are going to be okay but go ahead okay about why you like it oh i i i love i'm thinking of ending things because okay the skill and craft is like bonkers a plus plus plus plus plus right you can't deny through the roof like like and i'm

not just talking about the filming i'm talking about the production design the costume design the even the visual effect the whole fucking thing is just just a plus plus crap and then for me i got swept up into it it's one of those things know, I'm a fuck plot kind of guy. I feel like, I feel like if, if the movie is so hell bent on making sense and, and putting these plot pieces together and it's about plot mechanics, then for me, it doesn't work. But, but, but if, if a movie like I'm thinking of endinging Things, which, you know, honestly, it reminded me of the experience when I saw Mulholland Drive, which I'm curious your thoughts on that, Amanda, which is also to me a fucking masterpiece. Where it just says, don't, I mean, it's weird.

It takes the line from Tenet. Don't, I don't know what the exact line is, but don't, don't think about it. Just feel it. That's, that to me is what that movie is all about. It's just, just, just give into the experience. And then I, I found a lot of joy when I did that. And I love when movies do that. I love when movies take risks like that. So, um, okay. The Vast of Night. You must've liked that, Amanda, right?

No, that was one of the scary horror movies but that's okay that's okay that's another one i would not consider that horror creepy weird it was a little closer to sci-fi yeah oh that's right no but this is another one where sean and neiman and even chris i think very early on were like this is like the best debut of you know and what this person did with a small budget and i love sci-fi so much and i was, it's so great that the boys have things that they love. Okay. And it continues to be great. We are going to overlap Amanda.

I promise. On the rocks. Did you love on the rocks? Of course I did, but I'm a mark for that. I like, I don't feel that I can speak objectively about the work of Sofia Coppola anymore,

especially when Bill Murray is being charming in front of like Ellsworth Kelly and Cy Twumpley Phoenix. I'm'm like great sign me up i know what did you like about it sam what is i i did i i had a couple of quibbles with it but in general i think i i saw it as like a nice bomb like it was it was something that if you were having a tough day it's a movie that could lift your spirits i i really really hated the ending but that's a whole other, that's probably a different podcast. Yeah. I don't know, man.

I just, I found myself smiling the entire time. And I think if a movie can do that, that's pretty powerful. And especially in the middle of a pandemic, I mean, I turned it on and I just smiled from here to here the entire time. And I just also,

again, the craft is pretty fucking excellent. The cinematography, the production design, the costume design. It's fucking great. And Bill Murray is pretty damn charming. The Assistant, which is another feature debut, right? Kitty Green. Yes.

Andrew Patterson. The Assistant I thought was great. Did she make something with Gordon? She made a documentary called Casting Jean Benet. Do you remember that movie that was on Netflix? It was sort of like a hybrid. But it's still her feature film debut. Sure.

Narrative feature film. Okay. I love that. Did you guys like that movie? Very much. That's like a horror movie. That's like Jaws, right? That's a horror movie that's like jaws right that's a horror movie you don't see the monster um but just done in this very reminded me of those classic thrillers that i loved back

in the 70s very character based but i mean works on every level in terms of tension and suspense um i remember just being glued to the TV Watching it And then I actually I mean this was I guess a TV movie I don't fucking Again this is where the lines really blur But I love, did you guys see Bad Education? I loved, yes This was one of my favorites of the year

This was one of those things where Amanda! This is Cindy Lumet to the bone! How is she not loving Bad Education? Holy shit. No, I liked it. I think I, what was my, I don't even remember what my reservation was. I also, it was like extreme Long Island in a way that I wasn't even watching it as myself. I was watching it like as Sean and as like two of my best friends who Sean knows, Katie

and Becky off off like from this part of Long Island and so I guess I was watching it anthropologically as opposed to and trying to understand the people closest to me no it was very good but again it did feel maybe like a little the the emphasis on tv and tv movie slightly and which I'm not trying to ding it it wasn't made for tv it was just an indie film that happened to get sold to hbo yeah i i think um i think cory finley who made that movie is an unbelievable filmmaker and yeah i think if that if that movie were served up differently if that movie got picked up by neon or a24 we would have been talking about it in a different way. I think it's major, major stuff.

I actually regret not pushing harder for it during end of year stuff. Because it was not eligible for all the awards that we end up talking about through the end of the year. But that's a great... And also, to Amanda's point, I am a product of the Long Island public school system. And let me tell you, that movie fucking nails it. Nails it. That is the lifestyle. That is the culture. That is the personalities of those people. It's incredible. To me, that movie fucking nails it. Nails it. Like, that is the lifestyle. That is the culture. That is the personalities of those people.

It's incredible. To me, that's the... So that's the movie I would fixate on when we talk about the future of filmmaking. Because that movie in the 70s would have been nominated for Oscars. Or, you know, I mean, there's a lot of competition in the 70s. Again, I guess that's a future podcast. But that movie in another decade would have been you know hugh jackman would have been nominated for a bunch of shit like cory would have been

nominated that's the type of movie now like to to your point amanda to your knee-jerk reaction to it feels like tv and i was trying to remember what my knee-jerk reaction is and honestly i just feel like they gave the student journalist short shrift and like frankly that should be the all the president's name for the female journalist like why is she just a minor character look this is an incredible thing that she uncovered

I see so it was a POV issue it was very good yeah yeah well those are those are my quick quick faves of the year. Those are great shouts. And none of those movies are major, major, major releases. Obviously, there were not a ton of major releases. But did you find that you lost your sense of where a movie was coming from? Or were you hyper-conscious about,

this is a Netflix movie, this is an HBO movie, this is something I paid $19.99 for? Or is it all kind of the same to you? It's all all kind of the same i think you have your list of apps that you subscribe to and you you go on although i of course do a little bit more right i'm reading up on what's coming out what looks good i i'm a fan of cory finley from thoroughbred so of course i'm going to see his new movie um and then the vast of night weirdly i mean i woke up saturday one saturday morning you know and this is like in the i think in the like heart of the pandemic right it was in this like in june of last year or something like that yeah and it was like the you know the whatever what felt like the hundredth saturday morning where i'm like guess i'm just

sitting on the couch today and i i turned it on and I just saw the poster on Amazon Prime. And I just, off the poster, hit play. I never read one thing about it or heard about it. I thought I'd watch whatever, you know, 10 minutes, give it a chance and then walk away. But I got completely sucked in.

The rest of the movies, of course, Sophia Coppola, I mean, I'm going to see every movie she makes. There are certain filmmakers, no matter what, you're going to yeah, and course, Sophia Coppola. I mean, I'm going to see every movie she makes. There are certain filmmakers, no matter what, you're going to. Yeah. And so she's one of them. And yeah, Charlie Kaufman's one for me. Miss Juneteenth.

I mean, honestly, we just discovered that recently. And I don't know. I don't even know how. I mean, it must have been, again, through one of these articles or whatever that I read about. If your question is, is it because of the streaming platform? I don't think it's that for me. I mean, I guess The Vast of Night is maybe the one exception, but I don't think it's like, I'm like some platform loyalist or anything like that. I guess I'm just kind of curious for all people.

This includes people who are kind of in the business or creative, but even just people who have services. There are now so many. There are so many different places to go to see movies. I was just thinking about this because it was announced last week, I believe, that the next Mark Wahlberg movie is going to be on straight to Paramount+. And that's like another service now that has brand new movies. And so we're looking at like 15 services, basically, if you want to be able to keep up with everything. And there probably will be consolidation down the line. But at a certain

point, it's like, if you missed it, you missed it. The thing about theatrical or the thing about blockbuster is that these films were available to anyone who wanted them. You didn't need to pay for a subscription service. And now things are becoming increasingly kind of tribal, you know, kind of segmentized. And I wonder, I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing or a good thing, but how does it strike you, the idea of like, if you're not a part of this club, you can't experience this piece of culture?

I mean, it's a good question. And the answer is, I don't know if I, I don't know. I mean, I I look at something like Apple Plus. Look, I'll do this. I'll say it this way. It's not great that they're all off on these walled-off gardens. But if the only other solution to that is they don't get made, then I'm fine with it. I'm fine with walled gardens. If that somehow justifies making these really expensive... I mean, how much is the Scorsese movie that he's making for Apple? Oh, $200 million. Yeah. Yeah.

So he's making a $200 million Western, right? Basically Western murder mystery. God bless. If that, if the, if subscription somehow magically justifies, I don't pretend to understand the economics of that, but if that somehow justifies Chris Azia getting $200 million to make that, I'm all for it.

I mean, I would also just say like, theaters and blockbuster, you didn't have to have a subscription, but you had to have money to pay for all of them. And marketing. Right. So it's, I mean, it's just a different level of accessibility. And it was really interesting, Sam, in this Oscar season as I was, like, trying to get, you know, friends and family members and really anyone who doesn't listen to this podcast to care about the Oscars, like the hurdle to watching a movie on Hulu for some people, like seems to be greater than driving to the theater and paying $30 for two tickets,

plus popcorn, plus parking, plus whatever. Are these people that have Hulu or? Yes, yeah. They have them and they still can't. And they're just like, no, I'm not gonna to, I'm not going to be doing that. And also some people specifically, my wonderful in-laws were just like, we downloaded Hulu and it was like, they climbed Kilimanjaro. And I was like, you're like responsible people. It's not that hard. But they presented it as like, it's so much harder now to see movies. And in some ways

it really is because you do have to know this service and this service. And I guess you do have to be able to navigate the apps on your TV or whatever. But in other ways, it's so much easier and so much cheaper. And it's, but that does seem to be the consensus that it just like is really hard to scale the like wall of all those walled gardens. And I don't know how you get past that. Well, you know, look at Sony. I mean, if a streaming, I assume if platforms don't take off,

they'll do what Sony did, right? Didn't Sony just basically say we're not doing a streaming platform? We're just selling it all to, is it Netflix? It's Netflix and then Disney after that or something. I don't remember. So maybe that will end up happening as consolidation

uh starts to happen you know again it's worth movies getting made with good budgets and um and it somehow justifies the economics again all for it you know i uh i talked to adam mckay a couple weeks ago and it was interesting hearing him talk about working during COVID, writing and then going into production. What's it been like for you? What has your last 15 months of work been like? Well, look, I'm pretty antisocial. I don't love going out. I find that so hard to believe. You're such a convivial man talk to talk talk to my wife i mean emmy i mean every time we go to an event i am the entire time complaining that i don't want to go and i'd like to go home this is even when i was nominated for the emmy or the golden glove the entire time i just this is the last time i'm doing this is the last time i make that threat every single time and

she she always holds my hand and calms me down, but I think it's wearing on her. I am not a very social person. So what I love to do, and I was in my writing phase anyway. So what I love to do is like go to my computer and write every day, right? That's basically what I was doing when the pandemic happened. So my life personally didn't change that much.

I got to say, to a weird extent, this pandemic and all the Zooms, the fact that people are getting used to it now, I think solved a lot of problems for me and a lot of problems for the industry, especially in Los Angeles. It's stupid to take a 45-minute to you know some meeting that you're gonna spend 30 minutes at and then another 45 minutes off it's fucking dumb and hopefully that we don't go back to that completely obviously there are some things you're going to need to be in person for like i'm about to start a writer's room i really don't love the idea of doing it over zoom um and so that that's the part where because a writer's room especially when you are interacting with people like that some of the doing it over Zoom. And so that's the part where, because of Writer's Room, especially when you are interacting with people like that,

some of the best moments happen when you're getting coffee, when you're grabbing, you know, when you're going outside for a second or when you're talking about your day or whatever. And that's the kind of stuff that I don't think can happen over Zoom. So again, but in the past year, I wasn't in the Writer's Room.

I wrote mostly. So that didn't change very much. I then shot a pilot in Toronto in January. And man, I got to say that, like, that was hard. That was hard. I'm also a huge germaphobe. So I was extremely paranoid. I'm wearing like the face shield and the mask.

And I'm yelling at anyone who's like a nose dangler, you know, and, um, and I'm, you know, it's just the, the production is so stressful as it is to add like this layer of, and also you might die today if you catch this virus just did not. It was, it was, it was pretty miserable. I have to say, I don't know how people do it. I mean, PTA did it right. He saw a whole movie, uh a whole movie under those circumstances. And I just did 16 days. I was very on edge every single day. You know, the thing about me and filmmaking in general, I'm kind of this way about everything, but specifically filmmaking,

I love it. I love movies. I love TV shows. it is not worth anyone's safety or health so and I do a lot crazy camera I do we move the camera a lot probably a little too much and if it ever in the camera I love it no no but but there are moments where I'm like fuck man I'm worried I'm not just worried about you know there were moments i was worried about rami and there were moments i was worried about the camera operator and i will just stop that shit and say we will figure out another camera angle like i'm very uh i i'm i'm very overly cautious and so you know shooting in the pandemic was just not what i was built for i was built for more the going to my office going to my little you know office at home every day and writing i have not talked to a single filmmaker who's told me yeah it's been great it's been

really fun doing this no no one seems to be enjoying it seems really difficult um it's cool that you were able to get some stuff done though yeah yeah and and and um and i gotta say too with And I got to say, too, with everybody, even though I'm very neurotic about it all, people come together when they know it's serious. We didn't have a lot of like, I didn't get a lot of flack from anyone about mask wearing or anything like that. Everybody sort of pulled together and said, let's be smart and sensible about it. Having said that, though, again, I'm not built for that. I'm not built for that. Let's talk a little bit about the Oscars. So you came up with another great game of sorts.

But before we talk about the game just what do you think of the telecast because it's been a it's been a a topic of much debate of late okay well i'm going to start off by saying i don't want this to sound rude but um i don't know if i care as much that's not rude at all that is healthy i'm thrilled sam teach me how you know well and and we can talk about it because i don't know look i started watching the oscars when did you guys start well i i remember my first year was the driving miss daisy here because i think 89 was that yours john yeah yeah do you remember amanda mine is a little bit later um it's i definitely remember 95 um oh it's that much later and i think well but 94 was forrest

gump right and i think i was 95 yeah great yes because i i have some thoughts about the year of 1995 which we'll get to so like 93 94 95 i, 95, I would say, which I was like 9, 10, you know? Yeah. And I was about, I think, what was I? I think I was a little older. I was 12. And I don't remember loving it then either. I found it all very kind of a mild curiosity.

And I've never, it's never kind of been more impassioned or, you know, and sometimes I skip it altogether. I know that's blasphemy to say, uh, blasphemous to say on this podcast, but I guess I didn't. So,

so what I thought about the pod, the Oscar, uh, the Oscars this year was, I thought the opening was fun. The one hour with the Regina and the credits. I was like, oh, I'm watching like a Soderbergh movie. And then

they weirdly betrayed the cardinal role of filmmaking, which is show, don't tell, by eliminating all the clips and telling everybody's story. And I, gotta be honest, I zoned out a lot during that. And then, you know, you know I that was and then that

was it and then I didn't think about it since so I don't I don't I don't have the strong attachment and part of the reason why and we're going to get to this is that when you look at what the Oscars and you know who have won the Oscars do you value? That's part of the reason why I wanted to do this exercise for you. And by the way, I also did the exercise with the Golden Globes. I know you guys love to shit on the Golden Globes

and I know right now justifiably you should be shitting on the Golden Globes. But you'd be curious to know that I bet you you'd be more in line with who they picked than what the Oscars picked. Well, that's a very interesting point. And there's some truth to it,

although they do give themselves the opportunity to give two best pictures. Totally, that's fair. And I have those asterisks. But can I just add one other thing, which is, and I think Ryan Coogler said this recently, and I totally agree with this. This is not a competition.

Like filmmaking is not a competition, not in this way anyway, right? Not in this way where I'm making this movie this year and I'm looking at the five other film and I'm going to outperform, outright. That's not the way it's built. And even the film festivals, which I kind of respect more, right. Cause like you take the camp film festival, for example, there is a jury of specific number of people and it changes every year. And, um,

and they watch all the movies that are in this festival and, um, and they, uh, and then they uh you know and then they pick whoever is the winner and in different categories the the academy they don't watch all the movies that get submitted to the they openly admit that do you ever watch do you ever read those articles in the holly? They don't watch anything. They didn't know how to log on to the website this year. Again, people just need tech support, but continue. Well, what I'm saying is they're never going to watch. There's like however many 600, I don't watch all the movies.

I watch them. Let me run the show. I'm watching all of these fucking movies, Sam. And for what? My point is, why is the value about like for me, I don't know how much I can value those kind of awards when the integrity. And I'm not even like putting the Academy voters down because it's not their job to spend six, you know, a thousand plus hours or two thousand plus hours to watch movies every year and then vote on them this is like it's just it's like got low integrity in terms of that and then to be honest taste wise and we'll get to our list in a second i don't really align with them for the most part so that's for all those caveats i don't know if i have a strong of emotional reaction so when the

oscars didn't like excite me as much as they used to in the past or whatever, I was like, all right, whatever. You know, Chloe won. I'm happy for her. That was cool. Low integrity is a strong phrase that I'm going to hold on to that because I think you're right. I think Amanda and I both know that you're right. It's made up.

It's a made up show by people who don't watch the movies. It's ridiculous. But it's essentially, I don't know if it's the best we have, but it has been the loudest, the noisiest, the most visible version of acknowledging greatness in film. That is the purpose of that award show and of that body. And so we pledged some weird fucked up fealty to it over time and i don't know if it's getting worse or getting better but it's certainly getting smaller it's not getting worse but it's the same sean let

me just say here are the people that did never won a best director oscar stanley kubrick alfred hitchcock i wrote this all down sydney lumet. David Lynch. Robert Altman. Fellini. Howard Hawks. Ridley Scott. Sergei Leon. Igmar Bergman. Orson Welles. Sophia Coppola.

David fucking Fincher. Quentin Tarantino. PTA. Wes Anderson. Spike Lee. These are people who are masters. And the fact that they don't have Oscars, does that mean anything to you? Does that make you think less of them?

Honestly, weirdly, there's a weird badge of honor I give to them that they haven't won, and yet they're probably the best ever. That's why I don't even know historically if it means that much. Howard Hawks is one of the best, earliest filmmakers

in the industry, and he's never won it. I mean, that's fucking bananas if you think that matters so much which it doesn't so that you know to me why am i tortured by this why do i care about something that is actively bad frequently well there's like there's a sentimental version of it which is that sean and i did grow up watching it. And to some extent, it's like how I learned about movies. And, you know, Sean likes to lecture me about how there should be history and clips in the films in the show and like the Oscars need to be an education system for the world at large. And I think that's like unrealistic, but it is true that I learned

about movies and movie stars and other things that I should find out from the Oscars because it's the most mainstream. And I didn't have parents who were like putting me down in front of Fellini films or whatever as a small child. So it's what we have. And I think we are grew up on it and are attached to it. And also, you know, we're just. What is life, but like a of of things to strive for and i think we are just like hoping that it'll be better one day and hoping that finally it'll make sense and like david fincher will win his oscar and like we can go back and you know change everything we also just like you need a framework to argue about stuff and i think like you need a framework to argue about stuff. And I think like, you're totally right that as a commentary on how films are made and on,

and on what is good, the Oscars were like completely useless, but as a way to argue about films and like get more people into the conversation, as Sean said, it's the best we have. So I think we treat it like the latter as opposed to like a referendum on the history of film. It's true.

It's, you know, to that point, I definitely, and I think you guys probably did this too, you find ways to watch all the nominees before the Oscar at Telecom. That's like a kind of bookmark you have at the end of every year to be like, let's make sure I check all these films off. And, and, and I, but that's the way I, that's the way I approach the Oscars, right?

Like any best of list. This is the, this is the people in the industry who somehow found their way into the Academy. This is their favorites, even though they haven't seen all the movies that came out that year. This is their favorites out of the word of mouth. Yeah. By the way, some people admit that they vote for things that they haven't seen all the movies that came out that year. This is their favorite out of the word of mouth. Yeah. By the way, some people admit that they vote for things that they haven't even seen. And they voted for it to win.

And because they deserve it or whoever. The decision to do an anonymous Oscar ballot is like a whole different podcast about like a whole different type of person. True, true, true. But I don't pretend to know the answers. I'm not trying, I'm not sitting here trying to fix the Oscars. I think let the Oscars do what they do, which, you know, which is what they've been- No, leave it to us, Sam.

Let us fix the Oscars. I'm telling you, for $10 million, I will do it. I will fix the Oscars. Please call me. Well, first, let's see if you actually are in line with what the oscars have given you sean i think this is a moment for you to like look back and see if you do if you do actually let's let's let's explain your your your pitch your concept your new game here what what do you what do you want to do how and how should how should we explain this? Well, I was listening to your podcast and you guys care so

much about this and emotions were running high. It's our job. Totally. No, I think it's more than your job. You're letting yourself off. No, you deeply, deeply care. So I thought to myself, should I be caring more? Again, I

described it as more of a mild curiosity. So I just decided, let me just see how many times do I agree with the Oscars and I just picked 1990 because I was I guess the first year I started watching them and I only had a handful and and then I threw that out to you Sean and Amanda since both of you do deeply care I'm curious if you align with them more. And maybe that's where the disconnect is. So why don't we do our lists? So the prompt here is basically how many times since 1990, that's the time we set so we could potentially do this again in the future. But since 1990, how many times has the best picture of the year been what you, Sam, or you, Amanda, or I think is the best movie of

the year? So go ahead, Amanda. So I just want to say that I received sort of a telephone version of this prompt, but one of the, it was favorite movie of the year, which is different than best, I would argue. So I made that. Oh, that's interesting can i can i ask what what the difference is to you sure i because despite everything that you just said that i like totally agree with about like art being subjective and a and a result of one person and the circumstances and that like you can't really rank them like i i do think that sometimes there are films that are just like objectively better made, have like better craft or just like,

like this is a magical achievement. Like as art. And then there are the movies that I have like a response to, because there's a particular aspect of its filmmaking that is very much in my style or it's about something, you know, like, so it's like a movie you admire versus having emotional connection yeah and really like the movies that have like stayed with me what are in the like amanda pantheon versus like the the

greatest movies of all time and like maybe i only make the distinction because i'm you know just used to the amanda pantheon being so different from like traditional film criticism, quote unquote, which we don't even have to go down that. But I just, I responded to this as like personal favorites that are still good. I mean, I'm not doing like Bridget Jones Diary isn't on my list, even though I really love that movie, you know, but it's like, it is what it is. So first of all, we have to start a new segment called The Amantheon, which is about whatever is in the Amanda pantheon. Second of all, why don't you just tell us which are your picks, Sam? Because I think that will help.

And it's a little different than when I sent you, Sean, because one of them I decided against and then dropped off. Oh, okay. Good to know. So since 1990, fire away. Since 1990, Silence of the Lambs, which I hope is on both of your lists, Unforgiven, Schindler's List. That's three in a row, by the way.

Then there's a huge gap when we pick up again, 12 Years a Slave, Moonlight, Par slave moonlight parasite amanda do you want to read your list sure so the other thing that happened was that i didn't know that it was 1990 or later so i just made a list there's total but my my two are parasite and casablanca and that's it holy shit yeah wow and i but i did actually i know and i think it'll be interesting sam i don't want to spoil sean's list but um i think you have the most you're in the most which is amazing wow but i did make a list of movies that are in each year that I would put over the winter just because otherwise it's a boring podcast. And they reveal a little bit about some of its timing. Some of it is just like in

1990 is Unforgiven 92. I mean, in 1992, I was a very different person than I am right now. And I just was not really responding to Unforgiven in the same way. Yeah. So, eliminating years, I think, was more fun than matching years. And it was interesting to see how quickly I could dismiss a Best Picture winner in certain years. I don't know, like 1998, for example. Shakespeare in Love is not even in my top 10. It's not even in my top 20 of that year. It's not a bad film, but it's just not something that I, it's not a movie that I really care about or clicked with. So it was easy to eliminate that without even having to blink. But I only have two and one is unforgiven.

One is unforgiven and the other is The Departed. And all that has to say about 2006 is just that that was not necessarily historically a massively strong year. So we can go through even like on your list, Sam, I could identify the movies pretty quickly. Tell me what's better than Silence of the Lambs. I would take JFK over Silence of the Lambs 100 times out of 100. Whoa. Whoa.

You would be wrong, sir. By the way, I love JFK. But that's personal taste. That's just a personal peccadillo but Sean it's the wrong taste

but that's but Silence of the Lambs Silence of the Lambs Silence of the Lambs is a great example of what I was talking about I think that's the best movie

of that year it's the best and I really really like it and I also understand I love it in terms of like it's significance

and film history like it's craft and performances in terms of like its significance in film history it like its craft of performances like silence of the lambs two thumbs up a plus movie i would say thelma and louise would be my favorite movie of that year um but again i do like that movie it's not but i do like i do like but you can understand why i would respond to totally and not just like the experience of watching it, but kind of the influence that that movie has had on film history and how it's put together. So, you know, things like that.

Wait a minute. What about Parasite? So you guys didn't have Parasite. I had Parasite. You did. But Sean, you did not. No. You went with Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

So you agree with the Golden Globes. That's cool to know. I wouldn't phrase it exactly that way, Sam. I wasn't a part of anything that the HFPA did. But that's a very thin margin, right? It's the same thing with

Silence of the Lambs and JFK. Honestly, all four of those movies are A-plus movies. All four of those movies are five-star movies. They're all fantastic. But I like JFK a little bit more. I like Once Upon time in hollywood a little bit more i'm on the record all that a lot on a lot of podcasts about once upon a time in hollywood you are this happens frequently right this happens where there's like there is a movie that comes out and everybody's like man this movie's really great if only this other movie hadn't come out it would have won everything but

unfortunately paris like came along and just it, and it didn't get a chance to win everything. And then you look back, and that's kind of the oddness of the Oscars is we take this 12-month or, in this past year's case, a 14-month period, and we say, let's just judge this period of time. You know, Bill Simmons, our boss, for years has said, why don't we just do this every five years? Why don't we get a little bit more context?

Amanda and I have suggested, why don't we just do one show for every five years worth of films and say, what was the best movie in this five-year period? There's ways to kind of distort and reimagine. But I don't think you need to do that. I don't think you need to do that. I remember... I'm going to pick a couple. I'm going to cherry pick a couple years.

Let's look at 1994, right? You had Forrest Gump, you had Pulp Fiction, you had Quiz Show, you had Four Weddings and a Funeral, and you had forrest gump you have pulp fiction you had quiz show you had four weddings and a funeral and you had shawshank redemption fucking good list in my opinion i i liked all those movies i don't know about you guys i liked all those movies forrest gump was obviously the biggest box office hit of the year but i think we all knew that pulp fiction was the thing that was changing the game that was going to be talked about forever. We all knew that. I think people in the academy back

then, I mean, I was in Jersey and I was like some 16-year-old kid who knew that. They must have known that in the industry back then, but they chose to go with Forrest Gump. I don't know why that decision gets made. I don't know what the politics behind that all is. Maybe it's just, you know, there's this logic like, well, Tarantino was young at the time. This is his second movie. He'll be around. I don't know why that justifies, we've got to give it to Zemeckis because he's been around for longer and whatever and this is like a big big hit movie i don't i don't pretend to want to even get into that but they knew my point is they knew that pulp fiction was going to be the bigger influence did they not they knew they didn't have to wait five years they knew and now everybody fucking talked about pulp fiction

as the thing that changed the game and they still didn't give it to it. But is that the purpose of the award? To say that this is the thing that will have the most influence? Because I find 1990 as a very interesting cutoff. Because 1990, of course, Dances with Wolves wins Best Picture. And that's Goodfellas, which is obviously completely absurd. And

very similarly, Goodfellas is an immensely influential film that clearly was the best movie of the year for most people who have taste. And there was frankly never a chance that it was going to win. I mean, Good Dances with Wolves was dominant that year. And some of it they've attempted to address like in the last five years. And there's been this suspicion that because it's been a very white academy and a very old academy and a very male academy, that a certain kind of film would only be recognized. Whether or not that meaningfully changes the kinds of movies that win, we still don't know.

I mean, obviously, like this past year, it's a little bit hard to judge. And I think there's a sense that maybe Moonlight and Parasite in particular indicate a new direction. And then when you look back at history, some of these choices are going to seem fucking wild like they're like dances with wolves gets crazier by the day you know king's speech gets crazier by the day there's a handful of these where it's just like i can't believe that people like humans had brains and made these choices um but some years, it's not quite so clear. Like some years, it does feel like,

well, they got it close to right. You know, they were near the line. You know, if you chose Forrest Gump that year, I probably would have chosen the other four films that were nominated over Forrest Gump. But I still really like Forrest Gump.

I did a whole rewatchables about Forrest Gump. I'm a fan of that movie. But I would rather watch Quiz Show and I would rather watch Shawshank and I would rather watch pulp obviously which is just the greatest but this is but you're you're you're you're going a little too easy on the academy because this is look do you know the movie how green was my valley of course yeah john ford yeah that beats us in kane right yeah and i have to believe i like how Greenland's my valet you know whatever

it's a beautiful film about Ireland how dare you that's where my people are from oh my god okay it's fine but you cannot watch Citizen Kane Amanda I don't know if you're going to start rolling your eyes because this is probably very film school nerd I unlike the rest of America

have seen Citizen Kane and I re-watched it before I saw Mank a film I liked even though I've been cut out of that discourse on this podcast. So please continue. I'm just saying you watch Citizen Kane and it is revolutionary in every level of filmmaking. They knew that and they went with How Green Was My Valley. So this is not the 90s is not like some asterix or anything like that and it's not about like just old white men making the decisions because they could have i mean orson wells i mean he wasn't old but he was definitely a white guy so i don't i but that's i'm i'm

cherry picking here i mean hitchcock never won for like masterpiece after masterpiece so what what is it about them going the safe route? Well, I, that's the thing I don't get. I think you're giving me no. Well, that's the thing.

I think you're giving them a little too much credit. I don't think they always know. They know to use for, go back to Forrest Gump. Have you seen the film, the big sick? It was the, the romantic comedy.

Yeah, I do too. Remember Ray Romano gives a great performance in that film film and at one point he's complaining about the internet and his complaint is you go on the internet they hate forrest gump i hate the internet and like that's number one just like very funny like internet criticism but you know not everyone feels the way that we do about Forrest Gump versus Pulp Fiction I mean all people who are total movie movie nerds do um but not even everyone within the academy feels the same way and it's an imperfect body um as we have learned like every single year and it's a little bit the best we have, but I don't, I think maybe they're

learning a bit more, but like also maybe, maybe not. And I just, I don't, the other thing is that they're always trying to bridge that gap between what's really popular and what is like really significant um and without hindsight it well they don't get there i agree and honestly it's going to be interesting when we do the next pot about this because the 70s even i don't agree with a lot of the winners the nominees are insane insane and i and i that's the decade i think i did the math on this I mean even though you guys came in with such low numbers I'm curious where you disagree with them because you've included everything since Casablanca Amanda so I must mean you've never agreed no there are other I mean it's like even as I'm sitting here I'm like there are other movies I love that are definitely like my

favorite you know I also haven't seen all the movies. Right. And I just think that like they some, and maybe this is what it is. It's like Godfather, for example, and Godfather 2 were the biggest hits the year it came out. And by the, but you know, and then by the nineties, it was the CGI started to grow and it was those movies.

It was now like, I guess Star Wars started to trend, but now you were never going to see a godfather be the biggest hit at the box office and so that's that that's where this sort of disconnect happens and by the way maybe that's why the ratings started to go down i mean obviously titanic was the exception but that used to be the rule right it used to have gone with the way all those movies that were like the big studio launch that was also like the fan favorite was also the the thing that marched towards best picture that just doesn't happen anymore i think you identified something that

is kind of at the crux of the academy's long-term problem here which is that the academy is attempting to modernize and grow and change its base and reimagine what kinds of films it can recognize. But the Academy Awards was designed for Hollywood. It was designed for Studio Hollywood. It was built by Studio Hollywood. And so when you have films like My Fair Lady or Gone with the Wind or even The Godfather, which is made by somebody from the new Hollywood and was thought to be a little bit transgressive, but still was this kind of like epic, beautiful tale of a family and across many, many years. Those kinds of movies made sense in the rubric of Best Picture. If you look at Best Picture in the last five years, I mean, these films with the exception

of Green Book, which looks a lot like Driving Miss Daisy, these films have virtually nothing to do with the kinds of movies that won Best Picture in the past. Moonlight, The Shape of Water, Parasite, and now Nomadland, these movies don't look like historical Best Picture winners. So there is something kind of changing here. And I think they're attempting to be more international. You know, they're attempting to recognize younger filmmakers, filmmakers of color. It's just not going to seem the same to

people so older people who have this vision of what the oscars should be a little bit of what you're describing sam this sort of like this populist entertainment that also features great artistry things are getting a little bit smaller and that i don't i don't it's not bad there's nothing bad about it it's just different But how do you explain Green Book then? That was only a couple of years ago. And wasn't that in the, I'm trying to remember, who was up, what was up against? You had The Favorite, you had Roma,

which was a crowning achievement and international. I mean, I- A star is born. A star is born. How do you explain that i would describe that as a front lash that was a front lash to the sense that the academy was changing radically and it was a year in which roma and netflix represented one thing black panther which was also nominated that year represented something else and this was in an attempt to kind of defy

that that there was still there's still a ton of older members of the academy and that a lot of people went in for a film that seemed very familiar and that that's probably the last time we'll ever see that i know i could be wrong i mean i don't know man look at the year before you just said the shape of water but i mean look what else came out that year ladybird and get out i think incredible feature debuts that just home runs on every level uh exploring different points of views from uh from a black filmmaker and a female filmmaker how do you explain that like to me i don't know if the oscars are changing as much as you think they are i think oscars are gonna oscar i really do the shape of water is a film made by by a Mexican man in which a woman falls in love with a fish creature set during the Cold War. That is a weird-ass movie, Sam.

It feels conventional because Guillermo del Toro is very informed by classic Hollywood. Exactly. That's what I was going to say. It's filmed and told in a very classic Hollywood way. And maybe that's it, right? Inventive narratives like Pulp Fiction are just going to get the screenplay Oscar. That's what the screenplay Oscar is for, right?

But the best picture has to be something that's going to harken back to the good old days of Hollywood. That's either going to pull hard strings or have an important message or, or, or some sort of morality like that. And by the way, and again, I look at like parasites when, which was, you know, for all, all things considered a huge exception to the rule of the Oscars, right? I just don't know if that trend is going to stick. I hope it does. I mean, actually I don't hope it does because I don't hope for

anything. I mean, the Academy should do whatever it is they want to do. I just personally I don't know if, I know you and Amanda do keep emphasizing that something's different about the Academy and I'm trying to show you something's

very much the same about the Academy. And I don't know if that about the academy and i don't know if that's changed i don't i really don't know if it's that different 20 years ago than it is now i mean i will say this the next time there's a titanic and i don't know when that's going to be i guess it's going to be like when a superhero movie proves itself to the academy in some way that it's a i do think that's when it will be no i do think that's when personally i do think that's when they decide it's time to give a movie like that the recognition.

But I don't know. See, to me, Titanic wasn't on your list. I'll tell you what was on my list for 1997. Deconstructing Harry, The Game, Boogie Nights. Boogie Nights. Fucking Boogie Nights, man. Jackie Brown. And honestly, I'd even throw in Kundun in the conversation. I think Jackie Brown was nominated,, I'd even thrown Kundun in the conversation.

I don't, I think Jackie Brown was nominated, but I don't think the others were. Uh, and then I look at like, I look at like a year, like 1999, which I know you guys,

or it wasn't you, but did you guys do a podcast about the great movies of 1999? We did a series. Yeah. We did a limited series on it. I think most of the movie, look, this is a nominees for 1999.

American Beauty won, Green Mile, Cider House Rules, Sixth Sense and The Insider. And if you think about the movies that came out that year, The Matrix, Fight Club, Eyes Wide Shut, I mean, there was so many classics. Notting Hill. Notting Hill. No, yes, you're right, Notting Hill.

And they weren't even recognized. That to me is the norm i would i would say so this is maybe too nuanced but i'm going to throw it out there i think maybe the academy is changing but everyone on this podcast relationship to the declared best is not changing and i would just say that possibly both constitutionally and generationally, because this is like when I'm like closest to Gen X, is when I'm just like, whatever someone says is the best is not the best.

And let me tell you five more things that are the best. And I always feel a little weird, like the worst day of the year for me is always, like movie-wise, is when the Golden Globe nominations come out and they nominated things I like. And I'm just like, well, damn it. Because if the HFPA thinks this is good and I do too, then what does that say about me? I don't want to be with these people.

So I don't know that the fact that we aren't suddenly like, yay, the Academy got it right, says anything about the Academy. I think it says more honestly about our relationship to the Oscars and to like how we argue about things and whether, I mean, and, and maybe it just means we're just a bunch of like whiners and contrarians and Sam, I'll only speak for myself and Sean there.

Cause you actually are great at celebrating things, but I don't think I'm ever going to be like, well, they got it totally right. With the exception, I would say a parasite and, and moonlight moonlight to me is a year that they got it right two movies that were not on your list parasite was on my list for the record my list was parasite and cocks of blanca

moonlight like should be on my list and i think like moonlight is the classic example of also because they got it right i think it has been like and and also the way in which they it was announced like it's it's it's basically done a disservice to how great moonlight is because we remember it as like historical significance as opposed to just like an amazing film i also just like i have watched arrival which also came out that year like so many times since then it's like is that your pick arrival is my and that's like a real just personal emotional and something that over time i have just like been really walloped by but um moonlight and parasite i think are probably the only two times where i'm gonna be like oh they got it and i don't

even if they completely change the oscars even if like you know they reanimate 1992 and give the oscar to a few good men i I'm still not going to be like, wow, they fixed the Oscars. I agree with them. That's just not my nature. But, but what I'm, I guess here's what I'm trying to say is like, I, I just don't know if you're giving them as much, I think you need to give them more credit. Like I'll, I'll give you an example. King speech beats social network. So social network won the golden globe, by the way, King's Speech beats Social Network Nightmare Social Network won the Golden Globe by the way And a bunch of other awards

Rightfully so It was the best movie of the year And everybody fucking knew it Now King's Speech I actually really like King's Speech I think Tom Hooper is a great director And I think the performance is really good But Did you see Cats? I did not tom hooper is a great director and um i think the performance is really good uh uh but it was

cats i i did not i did not see cats did you did you really did you just strongly did you really not like king's speech at all no it's it's it's fine i i think it's it's all about context right it's like a man and i've been yelling at each other for five years about how the social network didn't win best picture because of the King speech. So now it is a villain of this show and, and, and of our friendship, but it,

it's, it's not a bad film. It's just preposterous that that kind of a movie emerged in that time. I was struck by it. Yeah, me too. But my point is they knew, and I don't know.

I mean, they must have known I was, I was in LA. I don't know if you guys were in LA back then. I was in LA when social network came out. It mean, they must have known. I was in L.A. I don't know if you guys were in L.A. back then. I was in L.A. When Social Network came out, you felt it. You felt it in the air. This was a groundbreaking fucking movie that was going to change.

And by the way, hugely successful at the box office. It is a talky drama, mostly people talking in rooms, no set pieces, no fancy footwork. It's just pure fucking great writing, great directing, great performances. Um, and it was exciting and thrilling and it felt like you were in an action movie. I mean, it just was, it had a, uh, whatever I can go all day about, go all day about a social network, but why the, the But when it didn't win, when it lost to the King's Speech,

were you guys surprised? Well, I think there's a complication there, which is that we closely follow this stuff. So if you have a consciousness about, say, Harvey Weinstein at the time's ability to manipulate the Academy to position a movie within an award season, then you know that he

could be successful in times when it seemed illogical. And that's an under-discussed aspect of what we're talking through here. It's like, this is not just an objective body that watches movies and doesn't talk to anybody. It isn't even like a festival jury where it's a small group of people who have their own specific tastes, but they have to kind of negotiate together to arrive at a conclusion. There is an entire ecosystem of commerce that happens around the awards. And so campaigning always matters and is always reflected in the winners. But that's the thing that was rather befuddling about it because it was winning. It was winning all the campaigns leading up to the Oscars. So it was, but I wasn't,

but my answer to my own question was I was not surprised. I was not surprised because that is what they do. They know that this is the more forward thinking film and they weirdly intentionally don't go for that. I don't know what the answer, again, I don't go for that. I don't know what the answer. Again, I don't pretend to know, but that's sort of, again, just to bring it back to circle, like full circle here,

that's sort of why my feelings towards the Oscars are sort of, you know, neither here nor there, you know what I mean? They keep doing that. So why would I give them any, you know? I have my keep doing that so why would I give them any you know why would I would I I like I have my eyes wide open with them because that is my that is my expected reaction to most of their wins and Parasite is like the shock I I think it's just a really rational viewpoint like I still I don't we can argue forever about, no, no, no. I think it's good. We can argue forever about like what the Academy, which is like a, you know, amalgamate thousands of people like knows or doesn't know and what that like a voting body can do intentionally

or not. Um, but you're right. Like to invest in it at the level that we do is, um, just, you know, it's not one of the better choices I've made in my life, but here I am. And the only argument that I would make for investing in it going forward, which it seems like absolutely no one but me and Sean is going to do, is the role that it plays in advocating and not even advocating for movies, but making people aware of movies. And I couldn't get all of my friends to actually watch Nomadland on Hulu, but they at least knew what Nomadland was this year because it won Best Picture.

And I don't know how many other movies they knew about. And to bring it back to the beginning of our conversation and like navigating all the streaming services and what happens to movies if they're not in theaters and the marketing budgets are different and yada yada etc you need some way to raise awareness and also maybe some way to like still be arguing about like do you still want to be having a conversation about what's like movies that are good and movies that are bad i mean

maybe not movies that are bad but i know you don't believe in ranking them, but where else does it happen? No, I do. I rank them. I rank them personally every year. Where else is it happening on any level other than among the three of us? Cannes Film Festival.

I mean, by the way, that's when I look, that's when I first remember hearing about Pulp Fiction. Because it won, that's how I learned about Barton Fink that's how I learned about Wild at Heart Sex, Lies and Videotape again, I'm a nerdy film I'm a film nerd so maybe

the rest of the population don't know about the Cannes Film Festival and don't want to know about the Cannes Film Festival and so the Oscars is their substitute, but weirdly I do, you know I don't even know if that completely works. I mean, does it?

I mean, you just told me nobody even knows how to access Nomadland. It won everything. It's all about sequences. I mean, Parasite and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood debuted at Cannes, and that kicked off their campaign, so to speak. And so we've created this series of events that happen over a period of time that allow for increased exposure.

That's what Amanda's talking about, right? How do you get exposure for artists, exposure for films? And is the Oscars the culmination of that? Now, I think what could be happening is maybe the Oscars is no longer the culmination and it is more like TV or more like music where it is more segmentized.

And if you're a film junkie, I mean, I'm really looking forward to hearing the final announcement of the films that are premiering at Cannes because it's probably going to be absolutely loaded because 10 or 15 films were held back from last year. So you might have, we might have 30 movies from people who are broadly considered world cinema masters. That's really, really exciting for us. And that might be more of our Oscars in the future. So you might be on to something.

I don't know. Well, I will say this too about Cannes. It's almost like, yeah, there's a winner, but I don't know about you, Sean, but I definitely try and watch a lot of the films that are in the festival that have been selected. Because I'm assuming there's some interest something interesting about each one if they're in in the film festival i i do i'm not again i'm not here to advocate one way or the

other for the oscars i do i do want to say though that i do think that there's it is sociologically speaking it is interesting to go back and see how it defines a certain context of that era what what must have the academy thought back then to have picked you know dance dancing uh dances with wolves over goodfellas and you know and and make those kind of choices i so i in a weird way even though i obviously love goodfellas more i kind of like that they like that they I don't know. It makes for more interesting conversation. We'd be bored right now if they always picked our choices every year. You know what I mean? You're right.

Exactly. You're right. Can I point out one other thing? 2007. I'm so curious because this is like three masterpieces. The best year of movies. Yeah. Michael Clayton. Nope. No Country for Old Men and There Will Be be blood is it there will be blood is that the name for me it's not blood for me there will be blood is the best film

of the 21st century that's great guys that's why we're all here together because you've got i love michael i guess that i that does make sense. That's great. Sam, we agreed. We agreed. But I think it's like, that's a great year for the Oscars. I don't know if it did ratings-wise or whatever, but man, that was a good year. That's like 94. And so every once in a while, this is why

I have that mild curiosity because every once in a while, it bubbles up to the surface like this. And it's pretty fascinating. And then you have like 10 years in between where it's not i pray we get that kind of a year in 2021 i i doubt it but i pray that we do you never know what were your early picks uh well i mean there's a handful of obvious stuff that's going to get nominated so it's a question of like p hopefully i mean hopefully pta but you actually can never kind of tell with pta it does feel like this is this this will be the topic of between 40 and 60

episodes of this show in the next year but um it does feel like after phantom thread he kind of like burst through in a way that the academy's like has officially recognized him as getting ready to be rewarded you know like they do make some people wait a long time. Like you said, Quentin has not won best director. A bunch of people didn't win best director, but they've gotten better at recognizing people

in the second half of their lives, especially if they make films that more closely seem to align with their taste, it seems like. Soggy Bottom, it sounds like, is a coming of age movie. So that would be nice. But then there's also

a lot of more traditional stuff. Spielberg doing West Side Story in the Heights, maybe Dune. There's like a whole bunch of dramas, you know, The French Dispatch. There's a lot coming this year that feels like it fits in neatly. Sam, do you want to join the House of Gucci Hive? I can't wait. Okay, great. Thank you.

Welcome. Sean, for some reason, doesn't want to be a part of it. But it's you, me, Chris Ryan, and film Twitter. Or in the house of Gucci Hive. Are you not a Ridley Scott fan, Sean? Huge fan. Although I think there are two schools of Ridley Scott. There is epic Ridley Scott.

And there is dramatic Ridley Scott. And dramatic Ridley Scott has its flaws. We've all seen All the Money in the World, for example. Flawed film. This feels closer to All the Money in the World, for example. Flawed film. This feels closer to All the Money in the World than it does to, say, Blade Runner or Alien or Prometheus. So we shall see. We shall see.

Sam, thanks for doing this. It's so good to see you. This was so much fun. Do you have anything to pitch or plug or share? No, I just love hanging out with you guys. So please just invite me back. We will, of course. We'll do 1960 to 1990

and maybe we'll bitch and moan about the Oscars some more because that's what we always do. Sam Esmail, thank you, man. Thank you, guys. Thanks again to the great Sam Esmail. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for making this show possible.

Amanda, thank you. Later this week, I'll be joined by Rob Harvilla. We're going to talk about a little movie called The Mitchells vs. The Machines. Just an absolutely delightful animated film. We'll see you then.