The Big Picture - The Dad Movie Hall of Fame. Plus: the Kickass Action of ‘The Old Guard’

Episode Date: July 10, 2020

We're still stuck at home, but another wave of new movie releases arrives this weekend, including Netflix's exciting new Charlize Theron action film 'The Old Guard,' the delightfully high-concept 'Palm Springs' on Hulu, and the Tom Hanks World War II story 'Greyhound' on Apple TV+. Sean and Amanda break down all three, before inviting The Ringer's Kevin Clark on to help construct the Dad Movie Hall of Fame (1:25). Then, Sean is joined by 'The Old Guard' director Gina Prince-Bythewood to discuss her new film (1:10:57). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Kevin Clark and Gina Prince-Bythewood Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about dads, sort of. See, this week there's a new Tom Hanks movie, and Lord knows dads love Hanks, who has thankfully recovered from coronavirus and is promoting his straight-to-Apple-TV-plus World War II naval drama, Greyhound. We'll talk about that movie a bit here on the show, along with The Ringer's Kevin Clark, a dad movie connoisseur.

And later in the show, I talked with somebody who is definitively not a dad, the great Gina Prince-Bythewood, who you may know from such non-dad content as her films Love and Basketball and Beyond the Lights. Gina's new movie is also not about dads. It's called The Old Guard, and it stars Charlize Theron as an undying warrior for hire. I hope you'll stick around for that chat. But now onto the ever-evolving world of movies in the time of coronavirus. Amanda, in May, we got news that Michael Bay, my guy, was developing a pandemic thriller

of a sort. Now we got word this week that Sam Levinson, the creator of the HBO series Euphoria, was tasked with writing a quarantine movie starring Zendaya, the star of Euphoria, and John David Washington. This movie's called Malcolm and Marie, and apparently it's done. I'm genuinely excited about this development, and I wonder if this is showing a way

towards what movie production might be for the next three, six, nine months. What do you think? I think this is great. My reaction to this immediately was I like all of these people and like good for them. It really does seem like Zendaya and Sam Levinson were able to seize the opportunity. I mean, and you know, they are both successful people. And so we're able to say, okay, we have a window. Here's an idea. Like, can we make a script? Can we get all of this support?

Can we find a location? Can we make it work with regulations? And I think the fact that their past career successes definitely played into that. I don't know if everyone is in the position to be like, let me snap my fingers and make a movie. But I think it's great that they snapped their fingers and made a movie. And the behind the scenes of all of this is really interesting in terms of they treated it like a puzzle. They were like, OK, here are the constraints of coronavirus, like logistically and financially

and schedule wise and took health and safety very seriously, which we appreciate and endorse on the Big Picture podcast and in life. schedule-wise, and took health and safety very seriously, which we appreciate and endorse on the Big Picture podcast and in life, and then used that in order to come up with an idea and found a location in a beautiful home in Carmel, California, the Caterpillar House. Love an architecturally significant location. Great job by them. And it was described as like kind of marriage story-esque. Is that correct? Is that what you read? Which seems to me like it's going to be sort of domestic drama, bottle episode-y. They'll be in one location having some emotional issues. Sign me up. I know. That's our shit. So Zendaya and JDW two together is,

is, is a nice combo. Those are two people that we talked about a lot in the 35 under 35 conversation. And we know that Zendaya and Levinson together, I mean, I was a, we, we, we didn't talk about euphoria too much. And euphoria, I think is a very divisive show because it it's, you know, pretty risky and pretty intense. intense. But I think if nothing else, Levinson has shown with that show that he has incredible visual style and he's not afraid to take chances in terms of telling a story. So the idea of him, and he's of course the son of Barry Levinson, the great film director. So he's got some pedigree. Hopefully, I mean, wouldn't it be great if this just showed up on a service in the next couple of months? That would be fantastic. I hope it does. I think it's really

cool. I'm curious how much it will involve like actual COVID in the plot of the film. And I'm just going to go out on a limb and say, I hope not at all. I think it's inevitable that there is going to be, there are going to be movies made about this moment in time. It's obviously a really historically and world-changing moment in time. But I also have been consuming a lot of COVID-19 and I am looking for a bit of escapism. So I'm excited for people to tackle that subject with intelligence and artistic vision. And I'm also excited for people to make art that just has nothing to do with it and spirits me away. So, you know, we'll see.

I know what you're saying. And I think what I'm hoping for actually is something that is claustrophobic and captures the feeling maybe that some of this has instilled, but doesn't necessarily use the words COVID-19 or coronavirus in the script. You know, I think hopefully we get more of that kind of allegorical storytelling and not the docudrama that I think, like you say, we just don't want to necessarily be reliving at any given time. I did want to ask you very quickly, you know, I'm not a homeowner. I hope to be a homeowner someday in my life. And I do want to name my

house something, like the Caterpillar house. Have you ever given any thought to what you would name your house? No, I haven't. I don't really go in for naming things, like cars, estates. I don't know. I think- Well, it's not going to be like Tara from Gone with the Wind. You know, I mean, I mean, something much more, much more curious, a conversation starter. That's what I'm looking for. So you'll be like, you know, come over to the like Leopard House or whatever. That sounds very sexy. That sounds maybe not exactly like my kind of place. Right.

Well, so I mean, anytime that you're giving a name to something, then you are like, there is an implication of some kind, whether it's like sex or like Caterpillar house sounds, I guess, like pretty nerdy, I guess, even though it's like a beautiful home. I looked at some of the pictures would love to live in the Caterpillar house. We'll probably never be able to. Yeah. Would you put the name out front? Maybe on the mailbox. Okay. I don't know. It's not where I am with it. It's not my type of personal branding, but I think that you should do you. What if I just called it the Paul Thomas Anderson Emporium? Would that be weird? Yes, it would. That also has some implications, but anyway. I won't do that then. You know, let's talk a little bit about some movies coming out this

weekend because for the first time in a while, maybe since June 12th, when we had that great Defy the Bloods and the King of Staten Island weekend of viewing, we've got a bunch of stuff coming entirely to streaming services, which is exciting. So the first film that is hitting is a Sundance favorite, a movie that sold for a large sum of money at Sundance, Palm Springs, which sold to Neon and Hulu. And I don't want to say too much about this movie because I want to encourage people to watch it. There are some twists and turns. It's very high concept. It stars Andy Sandberg and Kristen Milioti. It's kind of an adventure movie. It's kind of a rom-com. It's kind of a pure comedy. I did talk to the director and the co-writer, Max Barbacow, on the show and also Chris Milioti

yesterday. And you'll hear that next week. And maybe we'll spend a little bit more time digging into that movie. Did you like this movie? Were you a fan of this movie? I loved this movie. I also, I recommend this movie. I agree. Try not to know too much about it. If the words high concept scare you off, I just want to say like, it's a fun movie to watch. It's like an extremely enjoyable, watchable movie. Don't be freaked out. And also if you like accidentally read a snippet of the premise and a headline, because everyone's out there doing their headlines right now, it's okay. You're going to be fine. I knew the general premise and I had a fantastic time. So just like, don't think about it. Just watch a good movie.

That's where I am with this one. I'm with you. We'll spend a little bit more time talking about the details and the particularities of it. Cause it is, it is a fun movie to unpack a bit. And I think it touches on frankly, two of like one of your core interests as a movie and one of my core interests as a movie. And it is a nice meeting point of our interests. So that'll be fun to catch up on. The other, the next movie is The Old Guard, which you may have heard about in my intro or otherwise. This is Gina Prince Bythewood's action movie, really. It's a straight up action movie with elements of science fiction and superhero stuff. And, you know, it's Charlize Theron continuing to hold the mantle of most powerful action star of the 21st century she continues to be an extraordinary

badass this movie is a fascinating document to me it's obviously very unexpected from someone like Gina who is known for these sort of like very perceptive sensitive observant dramas And this is a really hardcore action movie at times. It's very violent. It has pretty intense set pieces. It is, you know, it did remind me a little bit of Extraction, which you and I have talked about a lot in that it's very well staged and it feels like it has a very core audience, but I was curious kind of how you responded to it because it also places women in the center of the frame in a way that a lot of these movies don't. Yeah.

And I enjoyed this and I could tell that it was a Gina Prince-Bythewood movie, even though, as you said, I have a lot of affection for Love and Basketball and Beyond the Lights, two movies that are not action movies involving superhero or sci-fi elements. And I think why I could tell that she directed it was that I actually did care about the characters and I wanted to know what's going on. And even though there are those sci-fi elements, I think all of the characters from Charlize on have great chemistry and you believe in the connections between them

and they give you moments of camaraderie and that sense of team building, without spoiling too much, that just felt in line with the rest of her work. And so I enjoyed that. And I wanted to know what happens in this movie, which I can't say I really felt when watching Extraction or even when I watch a lot of action movies,

I kind of know what's going to happen. And that that was nice it kept me engaged as well in the movie even though I saw I saw some of the twists coming I just want to say I'm not a total dummy some of them you can see coming but I some of them I was like surprise so it was great it does have a lot in common with a lot of the superhero tropes we've seen over the last few years, just in the very specific way that there are a lot of quote-unquote overqualified people in this movie. You know, Charlize and Matthias Schonartz and Chiwetel Ejiofor. And there are a lot of actors who are like really, they're overqualified for this work. Nevertheless, that just means the movie is better because you're with people who are more charismatic on an ongoing basis. And I think that the other interesting thing here is that Kiki Lane is, is basically the star of this movie who was one of the stars of, if Beale street could talk, Barry Jenkins's movie. This is

a very different movie from Beale street, which Gina and I talked about a little bit. And it shows that she's got more pitches too. I mean, she plays someone in the military which is not necessarily a role you see for someone who looks like Kiki frequently in American movies. And, you know, this is we're making this seem like a very serious movie, but it's also a movie about a bunch of characters that like have the same superpower as Wolverine. So it's it's this is a unique movie. It's true. Also, the Kiki Lane, Charlize Theron relationship is very nice in terms of what you were saying of putting women front and center and also just kind of like a nice female mentorship relationship, which you don't often get in these action movies.

And Charlize is great in that role. I mean, Charlize is amazing in all of this, but they have some nice moments. It was fun. It is something that it's something that you've seen, but also you haven't seen in this particular way before. And that's great. I think that's very well put. Speaking of some things that you probably haven't seen first cow, which you've heard us talk about on the show quite a bit, actually, since March, when it first was released in theaters for all of about one week before the pandemic struck finally comes to VOD. This is Kelly Reichert's really just masterful

movie. We talked about it last week on our Best Movies of the Year podcast. I would encourage you guys to check that out. Bloody Nose Empty Pockets is a movie that I saw at Sundance that is also coming to VOD, which is a really interesting movie that I don't know if it's necessarily a subject that we would spend a ton of time on, but I just wanted to make a quick mention of it. So it comes from these two guys, Bill and Turner Ross, they're brothers, and they are documentarians of a sort. They make these like quasi-real, quasi-staged documentaries. This new one is set in a Las Vegas bar called the Roaring Twenties. And in this bar are the people in our society who we have forgotten. There are alcoholics, wastrels, people who are unemployed, people who we don't think

about very frequently. The twist here is this isn't some like sad eyed, you know, tale of woe. It's a story about the last day of this bar and how everyone is celebrating together before this bar closes. There is a twist, which is that it's staged and this bar is actually still open, or at least it was open before the pandemic. And then all of these people were essentially given light direction in terms of how they should be acting and performing while also leaning on their own instincts as people. So it's a real experiment of a movie. And I don't think you've had a chance to see this one yet, Amanda. Um, but haven't. But if people are looking for something a little bit different this weekend, it's a fascinating movie that also, as I revisited it after Sundance,

I was like, holy shit, bars. I do miss going to bars. And I don't know when I'm going to go to a bar again. There's a bar scene in The Old Guard where I was just like, oh, bars. And again, that's part of the charm of The Old Guard is that they were all at a bar together. And I was like, I'd like to be at this bar with you, superhero like people. So yeah, bars. The people in the old guard are significantly more beautiful than the people in bloody nose, empty pockets. I got to say.

Okay. Let's talk about the final new movie that's coming to people's homes this weekend, which is the impetus for this dad movie podcast that we're having here. It's called Greyhound. You may have heard of it because it's been delayed, oh, about 700 times in the last 18 months. It's a Tom Hanks movie about World War II, which under normal circumstances, I think would be a movie event. I mean, it would be really one of the events of the year.

And there's been a little bit of a little bit of bad energy around it, I guess, a little bit of suspicious energy. And so what that has done is it has lowered my expectations on the movie over time. And we found out a couple of months ago that Apple TV plus had purchased the rights to share this movie from Sony, which had developed it and was going to distribute it before the pandemic. And then I got a chance to watch it. And I was like, this is actually not bad. It's actually pretty good. What did you think? This is a movie about a naval battle,

or I guess like really a series of naval maneuvers. And it is about the Battle of the Atlantic in World War II. And if you're going in just being like, I'm going to watch some old-timey naval maneuvers, that is what you are going to get, friends. And it is pretty good in that context. There is definitely tension, and there are points in which I was yelling at the screen like, oh no, oh no. I have to confess that not being an expert of naval maneuvers in the present day or in World War II. I will just be honest. I did not

totally know what was going on in a lot of this movie, but that's on me. Again, on record, Amanda Dobbins, not the smartest of movie watchers. I really just let it happen to me. And for some reason, I guess maybe because it was loud, but I watched this one with my husband and we were just yelling at the screen a lot, which in a way, evidence of a good movie, right? Cause like you were engaged, you were like, oh no. But I just remember like there was one point my husband was like, not Dickie. And I was like, who's Dickie? And he's like, that's the ship. And I was like, which ship? Like, and I just didn't know what was going on, know and and again that's on me my husband definitely like understood what the various things meant and was like oh I think that I don't want to like

spoil it but you know he like knew some ship things were going to happen before they happened so the film is communicating some of the ship things and I'm just not really into that. But I was definitely invested, I guess. Yeah, the movie is, it's essentially a men on a mission movie in which the Greyhound, this ship during World War II, this naval ship, has to, you know, lead a convoy to safety, lead an allied force to safety in an effort to operate on the European theater during World War II. And it is confusing at times. I think trying to keep track of which ship is which and which U-boat is in pursuit of which allied ship. It's not, it's not. And also, the other thing is, I wonder if we didn't, like, I watched parts of this movie on my laptop,

which I don't feel great about. And that's definitely not how they wanted you to see this movie. And Tom Hanks has expressed some frustration about not being able to show it on a big screen. And I wonder if on a big screen it might have worked a little bit better in that respect. Like, maybe. I, for the record, I got the big TV. We watched it on the big TV. I have to say that it's, like, the color palette, which is, again is again, an Amanda issue is like, is very muted. And I do understand that the North Atlantic also very muted. So, and I like understand that naval ships, they weren't like spending a lot of time, you know, on color stories before.

Not a lot of flair on those naval ships during World War II. I understand why. But so it was like quite visually difficult to tell the ships apart. And it was basically like if it was underwater, it was a U-boat. And if it was above water, it was like one of the ships I'm rooting for. But when there were various issues were happening to the ships above water, it was very hard for me to sort it out if it wasn't happening to Tom Hanks. It also is like a pretty spare telling of the naval battle stuff, which I actually like. I felt when it tried to kind of over explain.

You became aware of the exposition stuff, whether it was like character exposition or, you know, naval battle exposition. But when they were just kind of doing the maneuvers, that was when it became like the most alive. But again, there was just some spatial stuff. Like I couldn't tell who was in the convoy and who was an ex, like an, you know, an escort. And I don't know. And like why suddenly there was a big ship there and who the big ship belonged to. And why didn't the big ship see the small ship and all this? I don't know.

I'm not a sailor. I agree with you completely that when the action is happening, the movie is very engaging. And this is a really lean and mean kind of movie. It's only 90 minutes long. And it's at its best when Tom Hanks is stoically looking out into the horizon at the U-boat or the convoy and the wheels are turning in his mind. This isn't a big, sprawling two and a half hour movie that features a lot of showy performances. It's really one of the most restrained Hanks performances we've seen in a while. It's interesting too that he, I mean, he's the screenwriter of this movie. It's based on this historical novel by C.S. Forster,

who fans of the Horatio Hornblower series may know. And he doesn't write himself a whole lot of stirring speeches here below the deck to fire up his men. It's a very, it feels in many ways, very true to what the spirit of a lot of the World War Two engagement was, which is, you know, it's very stoic approach. And and in keeping, I think, with movies like Saving Private Ryan, Captain Phillips, you know, there's a there's a Tom Hanks lane that is not Forrest Gump or Philadelphia where there's no speechifying or no accent. It's just he's it's not even dad energy. It's like granddad energy. Yeah, not a lot of talking. I will say I did feel like

this strong, silent granddad approach does work better when there is some kind of character or other development in it. It almost felt like some of the character development got cut here. I think there are some pieces missing definitely from the Tom Hanks character. Elizabeth Shue shows up for like development like got cut here like i i think there are some pieces missing from definitely

from the tom hanks character elizabeth shu shows up for like three to four minutes um maybe more yeah but in such a way and you know and like the rob morgan character rob morgan is such a wonderful actor and and that's very confusing to the extent that i was just like were some things cut here did they decide halfway through to just be like more a trim? Like here's the action. I think they did. I think that's a, I think that's per perceptive.

Cause I, if I think that 90 minute runtime is, is unusual for an action movie like this too. We never see that with theatrical releases. Those movies are always like, we like, I don't know if you got a chance to see midway midway just, just hit HBO max this week. and I hadn't seen it.

I was catching up with it. And, you know, that movie is, it's got some fat on it because there's an expectation that when you're going to have a theater experience, you've got to give people the two hours, even if the movie isn't necessarily worthy of two hours. So I think what you're suggesting could be the case. Right. But, you know, it is interesting in a lot of ways. Tom Hanks is just using, like, his Tom Hanks-ness in this. And you're just like, you know, we've seen him on various vessels in distress over the years. And you're just going to give him the benefit of the doubt and he's going to navigate it through. So, sure.

We're going to talk about Tom Hanks on various vessels of distress when we get Kevin Clark on the show. But first, let's take a quick break to hear a word about a new show on The Ringer Podcast Network. I'm so excited to introduce the Bukhari Sellers podcast in partnership with The Ringer. We're tackling the issues of the day through interviews with high profile guests and conversations with a rotating panel of the country's best and leading thinkers, influencers and writers. You know, I'm not only an attorney and a former elected official. Sometimes you see me on CNN and I'm a new author of a New York Times bestselling book, My Vanishing Country. But now we're introducing the Bukhari Sellers podcast and we're going to cover everything from the 2020 election to sports and culture to the larger movement for racial equality in the United States. We're going to have some of your favorite quarterbacks, some of your favorite politicians, some of your favorite athletes, writers, singers, actors,

actresses. The Bacari Sellers podcast will debut on Monday, June 29th. Listen free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we're back on the big picture, and we are joined by host of the Leringer NFL show, NFL writer extraordinaire, golf bro, Kevin Clark. KC, what's up? Not much, not much. I'm excited to be talking movies with you. Dad movies are something I care about deeply, and I'd like to talk about

them for as long as possible. Maybe we should start there. Maybe you can explain to us, one, what a dad movie is, what defines a dad movie, and two, why do you like them so much? So I don't necessarily, they're not even my favorite genre of movie. I just think that it's just a rich text to, in which to explore. Um, I actually like what would be called the dad nonfiction book more. And those don't necessarily, that's not a one-to-one thing. There are bad movies made out of great dad nonfiction books and, and the opposite happens as well as we'll, we'll get into a little bit later. Um, but I think that, you know that Tom Hanks said this a couple

of years ago on Fresh Air, and I think it's kind of the Rosetta Stone for dad movies. He said that he likes to play characters where normal men are put into extraordinary situations. And I don't think it's just the definition there that's important. I think it's the earnestness in which Tom Hanks says it that defines the dadness of it all. And so Jason Concepcion in the article we wrote said that his definition of a dad movie is like the Supreme Court definition of pornography, which is that you know it when you see it. And I kind of am in the same boat. I think that there's no actual definition of dad movie. It's just something that strikes

to the heart of dadness. There's probably usually a lesson in there somewhere, but it's usually the wrong lesson and dad's taking the wrong lesson from it. There's a lot of learning. There's a little bit of Europe, but not too much Europe.

A little worldly. It's almost always based on real events, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a true story. Master and Commander is a great example of, okay, the war was real, but this ship wasn't necessarily real. That sort of thing. So I think there's a couple of core tenets for dad movies, but there's no defined structure or rule set. Full disclosure here, I'm not a dad. And I also, I don't want to reveal too much about Amanda's personal life, but Amanda is also not a dad. Not currently a dad. And I don't want to reveal too much about your personal life, but you're not a dad.

No. And Jason Concepcion, your co-author on this story last fall, not a dad. But we've known many dads. And I think that's important. How many dad friends would you say you have? A handful. And also, my father is a history professor who actually hates this genre of movie. Oh, why? I think typically he hates the ahistorical nature of it all and his you know

he's done a lot of work on southern history and civil rights history and his note on almost every movie is that they left out a lot of racism and so and that that's true of a lot of dad movies and and that's that's where i think that dads leave a lot to be desired as far as historical accuracy. And that's actually one of the core principles of the dad movie, is that they've twisted the narrative to fit a very specific lesson learning experience, I guess you could say. Yeah, there's probably some Venn diagramming with dad movies and white savior movies, which we don't really need to talk about too much here,

but I feel like they have a little bit in common, right? Yeah. And also someone tweeted this at me around when the article came out in November, but it makes sense when you consider that all dad movies are about like the police military sort of complex there. And then obviously Tom Hanks is the patron saint of all this. And I think that there are dad movies. One of my movies has Denzel Washington in it. It's not entirely a genre for old white men, but there are a lot of old white men.

It's definitely a fact. Amanda, would you say you like a dad movie? I like a certain type of dad movie for sure. And I think we'll talk about the different variations. You know, Kevin alluded to some of the themes. There's like definitely like the military theme. I think there's like a sports dad theme, like true story sports thing. You know, I think there is, there's definitely a Tom Hanks theme and like, um, and like a, like things gone wrong. Like, you know, just like extraordinary, um, triumph over adversity, like real life triumph over adversity. And so I tend to go more towards the triumph over adversity themes as opposed to the, um, like the military themes in the original piece that, uh, Kevin and Jason wrote, there was a lot of about like, can you have sex in the movie and still have it be a dad movie? Can you have violence in the movie and still have it be a dad movie? And I, so I thought

those were both perspective. And I think I am like a dad where it's like too much violence. And I'm like, no, no, thank you. I do also find myself thinking about dad movies. Like what I watch this with a dad, because, you know, I, I don't, I have a lot of ambitions in life, but I personally, um, will not be a dad at any point. Uh, so I'm like figuring out how I relate to them. And, you know, my dad doesn't really like these movies either. It's very funny.

I mean, the listeners of this podcast know, my dad doesn't really like these movies either. It's very funny. I mean, the listeners of this podcast know that my dad has like really bizarre taste in like, you know, old, really messed up, but brilliant Criterion Channel selections. But I think, you know, my father-in-law was a great inspiration in this. My father-in-law, who's like a wonderful man and, you know, saw Ad Astra and then was like, so here is why the fall at the beginning of Ad Astra that Brad Pitt's character goes through is scientifically impossible. And, you know, that's just like, that's really great dad shit. So I like things like that. I like being able to engage with the movies like a dad. And in a lot of ways, dad movies for me are like

where my interests and dad interests can combine and we can share. The dad astro thing is important because that belongs in a different category, which is the dad's love having read a book or have read an article that allows them to poke holes in certain parts of the premise.

Like, especially if it's like a war thing or it's like well they left it so you're like watching midway and then the dad loves to be able at the end of it to be like you know well they they left out this part and then that's a very important part of of all the dadness i would also say the violence thing is important that's why we didn't have saving private ryan there because i think dad might have bailed in the first 20 minutes if he's watching it on television. And then the linear storytelling is important. Dunkirk is not a dad movie because, and listen, all sorts of earmarks of a dad movie in Dunkirk, big collars, boats, Michael Caine. And this is important. There's just enough Michael Caine, but not his face. So dad gets to go, that's Michael Caine, and this is important, there's just enough Michael Caine, but not his face, so dad gets to go,

that's Michael Caine. And he gets to tell the family that that's Michael Caine. I think that's important, but the nonlinear storytelling part of it really starts to trip things up. Amadeus is another one where maybe there's just one too many flashbacks for dad. I think that's a great point.

We're going to do our version of a, of a, of a dad movie hall of fame. And I can't, I can't necessarily guarantee that this will be told linearly. So if there are any dads listening, we apologize ahead of time, but so basically what we're going to do is each of us is going to choose three dad movies that go into our hall of fame. They may not totally pass Kevin's criteria, but all due respect, Kevin, this is the big picture. So we're making our own criteria. Um,

and then we'll, we'll decide on a 10th together. Uh, and maybe in doing so we'll correct some wrongs from, from this podcast history. So Kevin, why don't you start us off? What's your first pick for the dad movie hall of fame?

Number one. And I think of its era, it's probably the runaway dad movie. It's The Great Escape. A couple of reasons for this. Number one, it's Apex Mountain for Steve McQueen, who was pissed off the entire time they were filming. And that is obvious when you're on the screen.

The IMDb page for this movie is actually incredible because almost all of the notes are about how much of a jerk Steve McQueen was. He took the role only to show off his motorcycle skills. And the note on the IMDb page is the motorcycle scenes were not based on real life. So there you go. Steve McQueen literally just wrote in a bunch of motorcycle jumps because he wanted to, which is something dad would do, which is rebel. So, uh,

again, Steve McQueen, Charles Bronson is in here outwitting Nazis. If you could throw in a Nazi who's outwitted in every single dad movie, I think dads would like that. It doesn't matter. Like if you just took in the heart of the sea, a classic Ron Howard,

dad, nonfiction book adaptation, and just threw in a Nazi there, dad would say, I'll allow that. I think that again, the cast that Richard Attenborough is in there, which the Attenborough extended universe is very important to dad. You have the planet earth, obviously. And, and I just think that everything that the, the vaguely true history part of it is important. They twisted it. The real

escapees, I believe, were Canadian. It had nothing to do with America, but we made it American. And I just, yeah, it's all there. It's leather jackets, obviously. It's all there. I love The Great Escape. It's a great pick. It fits, it hits really every box, I think, that you're describing. It's also, you. It fits, it hits really every box I think that you're describing. It's also, you know, it was back in the news last summer with Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, in case you were wondering what movie Leonardo DiCaprio's character

was CGI'd into. So that's a great one. Amanda, why don't you give us your pick? My pick is one that I stole from Sean because this is one of the movies that is most important to me in my life. This is like, this is not me relating to dads. This is Amanda as dad. This is as close as I get. And that movie is Apollo 13 directed by Ron Howard and starring the patron saint of dad

movies, Tom Hanks. I have read the nonfiction book by Jim Lovell that this movie is based on. And I, as a child, insisted that my mother take me to Cape Canaveral because we were, while we were on a trip to Florida in order to tour the NASA headquarters, not the headquarters there in Houston, as many people who have seen Apollo 13 will know, but that's where the launches are. So I like really engaged with the history of this, but you know, this is one of the classic Tom Hanks movies. I think it's, you know, it's obviously based on a real story. It's got some classic dad hallmarks, American ingenuity, you know, but also in the face of failure,

you know, that like, what do you do in a triumph over adversity? Definitely a theme. And it's also, it's a great procedural. There's a problem to solve. And there are like a lot of technical details. And because I've seen this movie so many times now, when I watch other space movies, I'm like, oh yeah, the heat shield, the heat shield's gonna be a problem.

And it's because I know, like, I understand exactly how like the Apollo missions, like, you know, there's the command module and the lunar module and then the service module, you know, I know like way too much about the science, but dads love that. So then they can say, oh yeah, well, you know, it was the, they didn't stir the tanks appropriately. And so it was like the oxygen fuel or whatever. I think it also gets like the right amount of historical like background, you know, Neil Armstrong's a supporting character, and they talk about the Apollo 1 tragedy and brings in enough sentimental stuff, so you're really rooting for the Tom

Hanks character. And just at the end, it's a lot of men in the room crying because they achieved something. I mean, there's that great shot of Ed Harris in his white vest, wiping the single tear away from his eye, peak dad stuff. I've seen that scene at least a hundred times and I cry every time too. So thank you to Apollo 13. It's a great pick.

I think at any given time, either me, you or Kevin had this on our list. And that's how you know that this is a lock Hall of Famer. There's no debate. This is the rare unanimous Pedro Martinez first ballot entry into this Hall of Fame. My first pick is a suitable double feature with Apollo 13, but it's a slightly different flavor. And I'm curious for Kevin's opinion on whether he feels this fits the criteria. My pick is The Right Stuff, which is also a story about the United States space program

and astronauts and the race to greatness. And it ticks a couple of boxes. One, it's obviously historical in nature. Two, it's based on a very famous work of nonfiction by Tom Wolfe. Three, it's a very sort of awards worthy and fatherly kind of approach to storytelling. It even includes a kind of false father narrative in which we see the Sam Shepard character who, you know, he's playing Chuck Yeager, who's the famous test pilot, the X-1 test pilot, who's attempting to break the speed of sound, acting as almost like this godlike, father-like figure to this next generation of astronauts who come into the US space program. And the way that the movie is structured is it's all about kind of like the echoes and how to build upon the legacy of those who came before you, which I feel like

is a key component in the dad space. It also, while we know it as this hugely celebrated movie with a bunch of Oscar nominations, it was a huge failure. And so it gives you the opportunity in the same way that, you know, dads like to lean over and tell you like, that's Michael Caine's voice. Like Kevin said, it also lets dads tell you, you know, this movie was not a success in the box office, but later we all got very excited about it. And so the reason that it maybe doesn't quite fit is because it's pretty high minded and it's pretty experimental in terms of the way that it's told. It's a very poetic movie. It's very image based. It's not necessarily the most narratively propulsive movie. It's quite long and impressionistic about the experience. And so I think if you were to say this doesn't totally fit, I would hear you. However, I think the overwhelming power of the men in the US space program makes it a qualifier. What do you think, Kevin?

Yeah, no, I'm in complete agreement with you. I think it's also the rare dad movie that was elite as a nonfiction dad book and then elite as a movie. I mean, it's like one of these athletes who was great in college and then great in the pros, like a Jim Brown or Lamar Jackson, where they had just two distinct different careers. And I think that a lot of times really amazing books don't translate to good movies in the nonfiction genre. This is something that I believe this is why we ended up talking about dad movies last summer, which then led to the piece was how many of those great books just don't translate. I mean,

the looming tower is my favorite book of all time. It was made into an underwhelming Hulu miniseries in which we saw Jeff Daniels is, but at one point, like that's, that was, that's all I remember from it. And, and that's a dad hallmark that's also i mean that applies to tv shows remember when they showed the butt on nypd blue in the 90s and dads were just like what are we gonna do anyway yeah and so i i think that the if it was based on nothing if it was an original screenplay i think it's it this discussion is a little different, but I think when you add in the Tom Wolfe part of it, obviously Chuck Yeager is, um,

basically an American icon because of, of what he was able to do in that era, even though a lot has come out about him afterwards, it is, um, less than pleasant, which again, another sort of dad Hallmark movies.

That's a dad movie thing, right? Where the sort of like the hero is actually not a good person. Yeah. Like a really bad, but Chuck Yeager was at a dolphins game last year and he's still alive and i just tweeted like chuck yeager is here and i was there too and then all these people i had just completely missed this all these people were like chuck yeager is one of the worst people who've ever been in the military

and i was like oh okay i honestly did not know that so that's that's where we're at with Chuck Yeager anyway um so he's what's putting him aside for a second um I think that the the Tom Wolfe part of it into the movie and this absolutely a dad movie okay Kevin what's your second pick my second pick is Bridge of Spies wow, I'm not even sure if I enjoyed this movie. But it was, it was just maximum dad.

It was from an era of the Cold War. It was in 1957. I think that a lot of the Cold War focal point has been put on 1980s at this point,

whether that's the Americans or anything else. I think that, you know, Mark Rylance has come on the scene in the last decade to become an unbelievable dad movie actor. I think that obviously, you know, you have Tom Hanks, you have Steven Spielberg, you have exactly what Hanks was talking about as far as normal, quote unquote, normal people being put in extraordinary situations. Diplomacy, weird diplomacy, problems being solved without violence.

Things happening at dawn are a very big thing in dad movies. And this happened there. You had the U-2 spy plane is an important part of it. Dads love airplanes. So there's just enough action to keep this going. Mark Rylance hiding a thing in the coin. If you're familiar with it, when he had the little thing in the message in the coin,

dads love secrets. And I just feel like I'm not sure this is a great movie, but it's a great dad movie. Just phenomenal pick. Just absolutely stand out. And it gets Spielberg in the mix too, which we'll be returning to Spielberg later, maybe a couple of times in this conversation. Amanda, what's your next pick? Like right now we're returning to Spielberg. My next pick is Catch Me If You Can, which perhaps you guys are noticing a theme in my picks.

It involves Tom Hanks, the number one dad in movies and maybe in life, in my opinion. I don't have personal experience, but it seems like he's doing a bang up job. This is a great dad movie because there's no violence and very little sex. It's kind of like a victimless crime. So, I mean, it's not a victimless crime, but it is obviously the story like of a con man who then gets into a sort of father son like relationship with the FBI agent played by Tom Hanks, who is pursuing him. And we should note that the con man is played by Leonardo DiCaprio and just a great performance. And then there's a third level dad, which is Christopher

Walken, who is playing Leo's actual dad. And I think like Christopher Walken is just a very important dad figure. Dads just get really excited, or at least my dad does. When Christopher Walken shows up, he's just like, it's Christopher Walken. So and and it's about you know it's a guy who is in uh defeating the system or really about two guys who are kind of in the system and trying to find their own way which i think like dads actually respect as long as like no one's really getting hurt here and it's a it's a happy ending sorry spoiler alert but it's based on a true story and also this movie came out like almost 20 years ago. Uh, and it's a dad movie. Can dad movies have like wholly unhappy endings? Kevin,

do you have a, yeah, no, I'm thinking, I think they can, as long as a lesson was learned or if there was some, so if it was tinge and glory. Okay.

Yeah, that's fair. Like Ford versus Ferrari ends on a low note but but there was enough there was enough there there it was everybody going out on their own terms as long as everything was on dad's terms right we're covered okay so so that works and in this case i would say that catch me if you can it ultimately does end on the terms of the two main characters who end up working together and having a happy friendship and kind of a father-son relationship. It's also got like, it's set in the 60s, which I think, you know, it's maybe a little

more costume drama-y than your normal dad movie. Like when Kevin was talking about Bridge of Spies, I was reflecting on how many of these movies are just like all grays. You know, there is like a muted color tone. But it's like there were planes in this. The Leo character is like a fake pilot at one point. And, you know, they talk about the Yankees and stuff. I don't know. It's pretty dad-like at the end of the day. And I think like Spielberg-Hanks are the real dad combo.

I think dads also like cons. I think con men movies, I don't think The Sting is going to make the cut here, but that's a movie that I can recall my dad being like, you see what he did there? You see how he moved the car to the bottom of the deck? Wasn't that incredible? Dads love to think they're in on,

they understand the con. They're not being conned. Everybody else is being conned, but the dad clearly understands what's going on. Right. And dad's like mechanics and like this has a lot about like the check number and, you know, he did this and that and the dad can explain it to you afterwards and just be like, also, you know, if you were going to do this, then maybe you want to make sure, you know, it has like, I guess you shouldn't use these lessons except I guess, to, uh, respect the father figures in

your life and like make connections. But, uh, it, it does have things that dads can dissect. Amanda, you were going to mention, uh, you said Spielberg and Hanks are, are on the Mount Rushmore here. Would you, if you had to build a dad movie, are you going Spielberg or Ron Howard at the helm? I think you got to ultimately go Spielberg for quality of movie, though I understand what you're saying about like the essence of a dad movie

ultimately being a Ron Howard movie. Like what was the Ron Howard is, and I'm sorry if I'm spoiling a movie on your list, Kevin, because I know how you feel about racing. But what was the car movie? Rush. Rush. Yeah.

Is that on anyone's list? It's not on my list. Okay. I don't know that that movie totally works, though. I thought Chris Hemsworth is in that movie, right? Oh, yeah. Yes, he is. And is quite charming in it and and that's just like a classic dad movie which

like with all respect to Ron Howard who directed one of my favorite movies of all time he does seem to direct a lot of movies where I'm like no one really asked for this but dads you know I tend to think that Ron Howard his governing principle is that he found a really cool Wikipedia page and then he just greenlit something. Like I kind of, I feel like there's a, just a lot of times where you'll, something will come up on like a Reddit page and be like,

this is a really interesting story. And then the third comment is like, Oh, Ron Howard is, uh, is attached to direct like that. That's where, I mean,

Frost Nixon rush in the heart of the sea. Um, hillbilly allergy, I think is, I mean, Frost Nixon, Rush in the Heart of the Sea, Hillbilly Elegy, I think is, is not a dad movie, but it is a, hey, I read this. Let's make a movie about it. Cinderella, Cinderella Man, A Beautiful Mind. I mean, it's like he just takes the, the nonfiction bestseller list and is just like, let's do this. And at the risk of getting a little bit too meta, there is currently a movie available on Apple TV Plus that is called Dads that is directed by Bryce Dallas Howard, Ron Howard's daughter. Oh my god.

And that movie is entirely about dads, including Ron Howard. So, you know, we didn't come to this dishonestly. There's some thought and intention behind this episode of this show. My next pick is a movie called The Untouchables, which is a Brian De Palma film about the war between Elliot Ness and Al Capone. cat and mouse movie about, uh, the FBI and crime, uh, in sort of 1930s, uh,

Chicago and prohibition. And it features, I think a lot of hallmarks of, of high end dad movies. It's got a screenplay by David Mamet. It's got a, uh, a score by the late,

great Ennio Morricone, who we talked about earlier this week on the show. Um, it's got Robert De Niro doing Robert De Niro stuff, wearing some makeup, going over the top. Big dad moment, big dad energy. And to me, the biggest dad energy in this movie is not De Niro and not Kevin Costner,

who you wrote about quite a bit, Kevin, in your piece about dad movies. But to me, it's everything that Sean Connery does in this movie. I think the energy that Sean Connery brings as the sort of wizened, tough cop father figure is pure dad. And he's Irish, very Irish, if I'm not mistaken. And I feel like dad is the son of a type of person in the Sean Connery generation. And he can say, whether they're Irish or not, they can sort of say, you know, my dad was like that. Yeah, he was tough. He was hard on me. He had a very specific way of doing things, but it sewed into my being a kind of discipline that helped me in my life. And I think a lot of people,

especially in the 80s when they saw this movie, you know, maybe they took some bad lessons. You know, I think in the year 2020, we might call The Untouchables Copaganda. I'm not going to do that on this podcast. But in general, I think this movie is very similar to The Right Stuff in that it's the elevated version of that Wikipedia page kind of movie making that you were talking about, Kevin. It's really a lot of people at the absolute height of their discipline putting energy into a dad movie, which is a version of it that I like quite a bit. Can I ask a question related to this? So can a capital G great movie be a dad movie? Or do there have to be elements of you know ridiculous dadness that

take it away from because as you were talking about this i was thinking like to me personally and my experiences watching film like the godfather is a dad movie because it's a movie that like you know film buffs and historians really like, and then dads like, and dads are like, you know what? Godfather starting again on AMC. We got to watch the whole thing. Um, and at which like, and then Godfather two is going to start and we can watch it as well. But it kind of, it is obviously such a excellent movie that it kind of transcends the dad label, but maybe that's wrong. So I'll, I'll tackle this if that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think that I think that there are nuances in capital G great movies that go over dad's head. I will use the example of recently 1917, which if you just read the description seems like a dad movie.

It is in fact, I believe if I remember correctly, dedicated to the grandfather of the director. So we're halfway there. But dad didn't understand that it was all a single scene. There was no cuts. He missed it. Like the dad was informed after the fact. He didn't understand the technical nuances that made it a capital G great film. So I think that you have.

There's different paths to dad's heart than you would take to a movie aficionados brain, I guess you could say that, that I think that there are, it's two different categories. Can a great dad movie be also a great movie? Sure. But there are great movies that might be categorized as dad movies that don't necessarily make the leap. Okay. That makes sense to me. That's my take. Kevin, why don't you give us your third and final pick?

So this is, I would say, the number one dad movie of my generation. And I think that I would say anybody born in the mid to late 80s has talked about this movie a lot, especially if they like athletics it is remember the titans i think dad movies are changing first of all and i think that with the advent of of streaming services and all that stuff that that there will be less and less dad movies

and more dad streaming miniseries or whatever but But I think that this might be the, even though it was a 2000 film, it's a very, very nineties film. And I feel like this is by far the most dad movie of its time, um, of its era. Uh,

you have the dad's understanding, not the real civil rights struggle, but dad's understanding of the civil rights struggle told entirely through football. Denzel Washington, obviously one of the most dad actors of the 90s. And I just think that, you know, you could sit here all day and list all the different dad nuances, but there are dozens of them. And yeah, and also tons of dad lessons, which I think are important. And football.

It's a great pick. I got no qualms with Remember the Titans. Former episode of the Rewatchables, uplifting, total hokum, just complete nonsense, but inoffensive and fun, and people enjoy it. And also, you know,

I did a story a couple of years ago, this guy, Gary Barnage, who, who takes random fans. He plays for, he played for the Browns. He would take random fans to the movies and he was like a huge film buff.

And we joked about it because this is, remember the Titans is like, along with gladiator is the only movie anyone in NFL locker rooms has seen. It doesn't matter who the player is like if you went up to sam donald right now and you were like tell me movies they would say gladiator remember the titans that's it those are the two the two movies anyone on an nfl team has ever seen and uh and i think that's that that's important you know speaking of movies that played on cable over and over again i i do think that there is like major dad late 90s, early 2000s cable overlap here in terms of it.

It needs to work on cable. And also dad needs to be able to have the commercials to explain to you why they got something wrong. Yeah, no, I 100% agree with that. There is a huge, the afterlife of the dad movie after it leaves theaters is as important as the first run. I just want to say very quickly that if I had the chance to talk to Sam Darnold, I would not ask him about movies. That's one, that's very high on the list of things I don't want to hear about from him. What I want to hear about is his relationship to Adam Gase specifically and in detail. That's what's most interesting to me. Sam Donald canceled on Slow News Day.

Oh, no. Wow. Well, that was last year. I think you knew about that. Oh, yeah. I thought this just happened. No, no, no, no. I wouldn't do that.

I wouldn't open a fresh wound. Do you think, did he do it because of me? Did he cancel it because of me? He did. He did some Googling and said, no, it was a scheduling thing. He was supposed to come on last Super Bowl and he didn't. He's a beautiful man. I need him to lead the Jets to victory. Amanda, speaking of leading us to victory, why don't you give us your final pick?

Mine is a more recent pick. It is the film Sully, also starring Tom Hanks. I just went in on Tom Hanks and directed by Clint Eastwood, who is definitely a certain type of dad movie. What Clint Eastwood really isolates for me in the dad canon is people who don't talk very much or dads who don't talk very much. Which is, I think, a really essential component of how dads like their movies. I'll never forget. I'll never. And I've told this story before, but it's like an essential dad movie story for me.

At Christmas, I went to see Inside Llewyn Davis with my father and my then boyfriend, his first Christmas home. And we are now married. Worked out. But we went to see Inside Llewyn Davis. Dad and Zach loved Inside Llewyn Davis. I liked it. But when we were comparing it afterwards, my dad very succinctly said, Amanda doesn't like movies where the men don't talk very much, which incredible burn by my father and also really accurate in terms of what dads like in movies.

So congratulations to all the dads who don't have to talk very much. Also, you know, obviously Sully, a true life story of a man in, uh, triumphing against adversity, fixing a broken vessel, and then being questioned by everyone and triumphing over the system and, you know, calm under pressure. And he knew how to land that plane. So, and 90 minutes. So that has one of perhaps the best dad movie lines in the history of dad movies, which is Sully saying, can we get serious now which which is i mean if if you had to if aliens came down and said explain dads to me you might you might show him that clip you might show the alien that clip can we get serious now is and and also he was in i believe it was in the boardroom and he's just, it's a very,

dad wants to imagine himself giving that line to the people who are questioning his choices. I'm going to, I'm going to give my final pick, which I think rounds out my trio of, of high end dad content. My pick is, is Lincoln. of course, is the 2012 Steven Spielberg film starring Daniel Day-Lewis with a screenplay by Tony Kushner. It is, of course, based on an oft-read work of nonfiction called Team of Rivals by the historian Doris Kearns Goodwin. And it's about Abraham Lincoln. Never heard of him. He was the president of the United States during the Civil War. And this movie has, I think, all of the hallmarks that Kevin has described throughout this conversation. It also features a couple little sprinkles that are important. One, John Williams' score.

John Williams is very important to dads. You know, he works frequently with Steven Spielberg. He has a kind of soaring majesty in his work that I think makes a dad feel like a real man. That's important. It also features Tommy Lee Jones. Dads love Tommy Lee Jones. They love him. Tommy Lee Jones not taking any guff and giving a stern speech is dad core. And, you know, this is also, this is a beloved and much honored film that received a lot of Academy Awards and a lot of attention, obviously, given the people who participated in it.

But also it's, it's like, it's very safe. You know, it's not, this is not a radical portrayal of the man, even though it's complex and it's thoughtful and a Tony Kushner script, you know, that's a gift to moviegoers or theater goers, but it's still a movie about Abraham Lincoln and the good stuff that Abraham Lincoln did. And that I think is really at the core of what you've been describing, Kevin, is we're looking for our fearless deeds accomplished by men of valor. And if there's one bigger than Abraham Lincoln in the telling of American history, I don't know what it is. What do you think?

Does that qualify? Absolutely. I want to ask a question about Tommy Lee Jones movies. I think Tommy Lee Jones has been in a lot. Is JFK a dad movie or is it too conspiratorial? I'm so glad you asked this because I wanted to speak with you. You identified it as a JFK movie

in your uh an original piece with Jason I think that was you right you were arguing it was a JFK movie I don't I sort of bet I sort of asked the question and then came down on the side right yes and I I don't know when the last dads also love New Orleans. Dads love New Orleans, but dads want to get serious, as you just said. And at some point, they're just like, it is the third hour, sir, of you talking about these conspiracy theories. And I have things to do, and we need to apply some rational order. When I rewatched JFK recently for the courtroom dramas episode of the big picture that we did, I was like, oh, this understands our generation. This explains our generation's entire brain and everything that the way that we look at the world.

And also this movie is like really out there and is probably. So I would vote no for dad movie. I think it's reinventing the dad movie, perhaps. But most dads are just they're like Sully, you know? They just want to get to brass tacks. The one thing, the final thought I had on Tom Lee Jones, I do want to say that his performance

in No Country for Old Men is specifically a dad performance because he's a stand-in for dad not getting it. He's just like totally confused, telling stories that go nowhere. He doesn't really understand what he's looking at and so he is the guy who's looking at all coen brothers movies and going i don't i think i like

it that's him that's that's his function in no country for old men yeah no country can't be a dad movie because it carves out the most important event of the movie and does not portray it on screen which is just confusing for dads they don don't want that. They want to see what happened to the characters in the film. On JFK, I think you suggested that it reinvented the dad movie, and I think that that's right, because I think there are a lot of guys like me, maybe not exactly like me, but somewhat like me, in their 30s, really into movies, into Costner, into Oliver Stone. They checked out JFK when they were a teenager and they were like, there's a lot of good thoughts here. There's some deep shit going on in this movie. They really landed on some stuff.

And then what it did is it broke our brains. And then what we decided to do is spend our adulthood looking at Reddit. And now we need to look at what the future of the dad movie is because that's, I think JFK in the same way that the great escape influenced a lot of men to think about outwitting Nazis and riding cool motorcycles. JFK convinced us to spend way too much time on bullshit conspiracy theories. Yes. Um, I,

I agree with that. And I also think it normalized it in a way cause it's presented as a dad movie. And I think that if you're watching a way because it's presented as a dad movie. And I think that if you're watching it, you're going, oh, this is especially it's called JFK. It's not called a it's not called a fringe trial with Joe Pesci doing weird voice work in New Orleans. Although if they made that now, maybe it would be called that. But they call it a JFK. So you get lulled into thinking that it's a movie about JFK or at least it's some sort

of mainstream thing. And then you just get hit over the head with a few different conspiracies. So I think it's definitely a fascinating test case. And I think that we might judge it now as one, but not,

but I don't think our dads did, if that makes sense. Let's, let's talk quickly about our 10th film. So, uh, last year when a beautiful day in the neighborhood was released, Amanda and I did an episode about Tom Hanks. We love Tom Hanks here on the show. And one of the decisions that we made when we built the Tom Hanks hall of fame, which I don't believe featured many of these Tom Hanks movies. It featured Apollo 13. Yes, I don't recall if it... Because I think I would have walked out. Yeah, but it did not feature Bridge of Spies.

And I don't even know if it featured Catch Me If You Can, honestly. And a movie that it also did not feature is Saving Private Ryan. And Saving Private Ryan, of course, one of the most celebrated movies of the 90s. No one needs to have me explain what Saving Private Ryan, of course, one of the most celebrated movies of the 90s. No one needs to have me explain what Saving Private Ryan is. Though I think you might consider it a slightly controversial pick, Kevin. And so I thought we should talk through that because it's a great movie. It's a great Spielberg movie. It obviously famously lost the Oscar to Shakespeare in Love,

which in a way I think kind of further built its legend. You know, I think the fact that it was not, it did not get celebrated in that way, made it an even bigger talking point over the years. And when we didn't put it in the Hanks Hall of Fame, people were like, what you should do is eat glass and die. That was the most virulent reaction we've ever gotten to a Hall of Fame episode ever. And so, but I think you say maybe it's not. So weigh in on that. I would you, you, you, you say maybe it's not. So what do you weigh in on that?

I would say it's, it's literally just the violence. And I think with, but the violence is obviously what makes it great. I mean, that was, I saw that when I was nine or 10 years old. And that was the most realistic depiction of war I've ever seen. This was before the internet and Reddit, as you said, when you can just sort of see whatever all the time so i remember being very young and being like this isn't good um and seeing guts and people getting blowtorched and all that stuff uh and i think that there are dads who like it's not a moral thing it's just a taste thing and i feel like a a debt once you get to be 40 or 45 or 50 you just there is a certain percentage of dads who might go this's just a taste thing and i feel like a a debt once you get to be 40 or 45 or 50 you just

there is a certain percentage of dads who might go this is just a little much what do you think amanda too violent i do think that dads would be like it's a little much but i also then can hear the next sentence of the dad soliloquy which is like but it's really important to understand what world war ii really was and i think is this like the world war ii movie i mean that's obviously such like a huge genre um and you know a continuing genre but in the popular imagination or at least in the dad imagination world war ii which has spawned like an extraordinary number of the nonfiction books that Kevin is referencing and films. This is held up as like the example. So to me, just in terms of dad interest, obviously it's Spielberg and Hanks. And it's like if JFK reinvented it, then I think

Saving Private Ryan is kind of like the summation in a lot of ways. I think for that time period, which is around when Tom Brokaw was writing The Greatest Generation book, this is the World War II movie. I mean, I think there are a lot of World War II movies in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s that might come before. But I agree. It's totemic for that period of time in which the three of us were kind of coming of age so I'm putting it in despite Kevin's protest oh I I would put it in I'm I'm just putting myself in dad's footsteps or dad's shoes here be careful because then you might end up having a child you didn't know about that's just very that's dangerous stuff um so that's our 10 that's a good 10 very quickly I want you guys to to pitch me a dad movie

what do you what do we need based on what we just pulled together here what is a movie that needs to exist we can we don't even

we can all land on one movie together but you know you suggested would it be Spielberg or Ron Howard so if we chose Spielberg you know

what's a what's a real life event that we've not seen captured that we'd like to see captured Kevin you're you're a history buff what do you what do you want to see i am i want to i i this i'm going to be careful here because first of all spielberg would direct my would direct my ideal biopic there is a movie that

i'm about to pitch that is in production but i don't think it's going to be a dad movie okay so i just read a very good book about Elvis Presley. There is a Baz Luhrmann book, book, movie. I'd love to read a Baz Luhrmann book, but there's a Baz Luhrmann movie coming out about Elvis Presley. Tom Hanks is in it.

Maggie Gyllenhaal is in it. Austin Butler plays Elvis Presley. I am worried having seen Baz Luhrmann's work that it is not going to be dad core. I want like last five years. I also think this is going to cover the early part of his life, which dad is not that interested in. The last 10, the book I read was called careless love. And it was about the last 15 years of his life where the Colonel was basically telling him what to do. And he was just pilling out the whole time and bummed out and like enjoyed recording like three out of the 400 songs he recorded.

And that to me would be, and this is only this recency bias. I literally just read this book last month. But for me, if I could see kind of an Americana type biopic, I would want to see fat old Elvis Presley, like obsessed with karate, like that,

that, that type of Elvis. And I'd go Spielberg and Tom Hanks can play Colonel Tom Parker again in this one. So that book that you mentioned is written by Peter Goralnik, who is arguably the greatest music biographer of the last 50, 60 years. And his books are the dad choreist music books of all time. And it's fascinating that somebody like Baz Luhrmann, who is style and a showman and colorful and somebody who takes liberties with stories would adapt a Peter Goralnik book. Amanda, what do you think about the Elvis movie? I would watch it. You know, it's interesting. One of my personal favorite,

like dad movies that I didn't think quite counted for this list and also I was obviously just picking Tom Hanks movies is Walk the Line um which is the Johnny Cash biopic directed by James Mangold and like I wondered if that was too much you know darkness and specifically obviously um Johnny Cash struggled with substance abuse and so there are a lot of you know there's like drug use and and do dads dads want more uplifting stuff than that. Or at least that was my understanding. I also wondered, like, we don't have that many like pure biopics on that list, because I think Kevin, what you said is right of like, does dad really care about the early years? Does dad care about like even the dwindling years or does dad just want like the moment of greatness so so you know i do think also like dad's really like elvis so and would

be interested in that and at some point it's like taking them back to their youth but but you know i would be happy to see it i think spielberg would be interesting. I think the reason it's not, like, is Lincoln a straight biopic? No, because it's Lincoln in this one month where he had, he faced adversity. He got in the, as Tom Hanks said, the extraordinary situation. And he got out of it with the help of Tommy Lee Jones. While taking on Lee Pace, by the way. Lee Pace was one of the villains in that movie. So yeah, I think biopics have to have a twist on them to appeal to dad. Okay. Okay. I'm with that. I think let's try to write a script,

the three of us, about Elvis Presley and challenge Baz Luhrmann's primacy as the teller of the Elvis mythology. I think that's a good next step for us. So the three of us will jump off right now and we'll start a final draft document to get started on that. Kevin and Amanda, thank you for helping construct the Dad Movie Hall of Fame.

This has been insightful. And Kevin, as always, just deeply weird how interested you are in this stuff. So I appreciate you sharing your soul with us. Anytime. Okay. Now let's go to my conversation with Gina Prince-Bythewood. Gina, thanks for being with me on the show. I appreciate it. No doubt. So Gina, I saw your new film and you're known for thoughtful sensitive dramas and the old guard was not that it was it was a seemed like a bit of a left turn i'm curious how this movie came to you

um well uh i love action films and i love the ones that move me the most are action dramas um logan black panther you know film that i can get into and get all that adrenaline rush yet i cried in both of those at the end i love that and i think that the genre i think that's the direction the genre should move into um again me having seen almost everything that's ever come out a boredom had started to set in for me personally. It just started feeling just relentless and folks trying to one up each other in terms of sequences. But if you don't care about the characters, if there's no stakes, then, you know, it's just two people beating each other and, you know, no jeopardy. So, again, I was very excited about Logan and about Black Panther.

And I, myself, as a director, filmmaker, I wanted my opportunity to make a film in that space. And so, you know, trajectory of my career and things that I've taken recently were, you know, along those lines to move into there. But it's still, I mean,'ve taken recently were, you know, along those lines to move into there. But it's still, I mean, let's be real, for women, the opportunities are few and far between. And certainly for a Black woman, there hasn't been. But I was very fortunate that Skydance was determined to have a female director for The Old Guard. And they sent me the script and I loved it.

I loved it from the first five pages. I knew like, this is me. And as I continue to read, the story just kept surprising me. It moved me. And that at the end of the day was the most important thing. The fact that it had a black female lead

and a heroic lead, which is so rare and something that's important to me as a filmmaker to put into the world. So I dug it in for the meeting. What was surprising and pretty great was that they said one of the reasons they sent me the script was because of Love and Basketball, which was my first film. And just the character work that I did in there, the way that I had trained an actress to look good playing basketball. And they knew that they wanted these women to look great doing the action. So it was less of a fight than I thought it was going to be once I was in that room. And that was really beautiful to be sitting with Skydance, who does such big films. It was intimidating at first, but then you just have to kick up your swagger and remember that you know how to make a movie. This is obviously

something a lot bigger, but it starts with telling a good story and creating good characters. And the other is just more money is more toys. So I'm actually quite curious about that moment when you go into the room with Skydance. What do you prepare before you do that? What is your pitch in that moment? It's interesting. Pitching, I hate it. Some people love it. I hate it. It just scares the hell out of me. But for me, I always feel like if I have this one thing that I know nobody else is going to bring, like that gives me my swagger. And for this, foremost was my passion. I mean, I truly love the night before the pitch i hooked up with a producer friend of mine and you know i created this sound that that i knew that i wanted which was a mixture of hip-hop and old world instruments and it was it was pretty dope and so in the pitch as i'm

talking about how i was picturing the kill floor and how I was going to shoot that, I pressed play and this track came in and that was it. Like I saw their faces. I was like, I got them. Yeah, that was that was a turning point. You really capture that in the ultimate score of the film, too. I mean, that is what the movie sounds like, right? Yeah, I we have such incredible composers. Was so fortunate to have them. And when I pitched the vibe of what I wanted, they embraced it very, very quickly.

And then also using song for score. That's something that I love to do in films and wanted us to have a cool soundtrack that felt different than what I think you normally hear in a film like this. And hopefully uh, you know, hopefully it worked. You teased us with that Frank Ocean drop very briefly. Um, so, you know, I know you've been rumored to work on comic book movies in the past.

This is based on a graphic novel. Um, I'm curious, what is it like for you personally to translate something that already has like a visual representation, but then how to make it coherent as a movie. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, for me, in doing an adaptation, this is my first graphic novel adaptation, but

I've done a couple of films that were adaptations. For me, the source material is my Bible and not my blueprint. I feel like an author, an artist has created the story. They've created these characters and that should be respected. And that's also, you know, why I'm here to tell that story that I fell in love with. So it started absolutely with a great collaboration with Greg Rucka, who wrote the graphic novel and wrote the screenplay.

That's very rare to see. And he and I can just such a great mutual respect and collaboration in terms of working on the script. And then, you know, as soon as I read the script, I knew what I wanted from it. I wanted it to feel grounded and real. I felt despite the fantastical conceit of it, of the immortality, I wanted an audience to believe that these characters could be sitting next to you at a Starbucks, you know, and I wanted the action to feel grounded and real. And, you know, in looking at the graphic novel, I just felt like I could mirror some of the images within that. Definitely the use of silhouette. That was definitely my homage to the

graphic novel. But it is very poppy. It is very bright and big. And so for me, it was just pulling back on that and pulling in my own aesthetic and trying to marry those two together. And, you know, it's a tough thing at first to figure out the tone. But again, I felt like I pulled what excited me about the graphic novel and married it with my aesthetic. So I was going back and listening to some of the interviews you've given in the past and you talked about sports and what sports meant to you and how it kind of shaped you as a person. And you said that competition is good and that ego can be good. And I really kind of see that even in the characters in this story. There you go. The big Serena shout on your t-shirt. I mean, is that, it does feel like in a strange way, it's kind of a sports movie,

The Old Guard. You know, there is a competition and people have something that is unique and like a talent that only a select few people have? Did that cross your mind as you were working on this? Oh, absolutely. What I loved about Andy and Niall is that they are warriors and they are strong and they are courageous. And it just is. There was no traumatic event that happened that forced them to have to find their strength. They're just dope and they're just athletic. And for me, that's the women I grew up around, being an athlete. I mean, since I was five years old, that was a normal for me. And it's not a normal for so many women. And I wish it was because of everything sports teaches you. And

for me to be able to put characters like that into the world and up on screen, my hope is that more women can see themselves reflected in these women and understand that, yes, we have the capability to be warriors and be tough and courageous and strong, but also vulnerable. And it's absolutely an athlete thing.

And then in terms of the stunts and the fight scenes, you know, having two women as an athlete thing. And then in terms of the stunts and the fight scenes, having two women as an athlete, I was not going to let them go out looking whack. It was not going to happen. And I had kickboxed for two years, so I know fighting and I just never want to set women back. So that was a big thing in terms of knowing what it would take for the actresses in terms of training, how hard they would need to work. I knew I didn't want to set women back. So that was a big thing in terms of knowing what it would take for the actresses in terms of training, how hard they would need to work. I knew I didn't want to use a lot of stunt double work. I wanted the audience to see the two of them because also I think the best action scenes, as I kind of mentioned before, are character driven. They tell a story and the best way to do that is to be able to have the actors

in that telling that story as well through performance, not just through the fighting. Can you tell me a little bit about working with Charlize, who is now like the action star of this decade, century? I mean, she's been a part

of a lot of films that have this kind of energy. What were your early conversations with her like, and, and why did you want to work with her? Yeah, I loved Mad Max. I really love that film. George Miller is a genius and that is a film that elevated the genre. Absolutely. And so I enjoyed her work in that, you know, she is because she's done this before.

She does understand the amount of work it takes to look good and be good. In addition is willing to put in that work. You know, when you're, well, it's two things. It's one is funny because we all, at least I do whenever, you know, an actor's in a big action film, they usually cut together a piece of their training, you know, and it always looks cool and fun. But the reality is, it's so much work. And, you know, both Charlize and Kiki were working two times a day,

doing two a days in the morning and the afternoon. It is for six days a week. That is a tremendous amount of work. It is hard. And going into it again, Charlize knows what it takes. And then in addition on set, you have to keep doing it until you get it right. You have to make sure every element of the stunt or the fight looks right. And that can be 14, 15, 16 takes of something. And it's tiring and it's exhausting. But if you don't get it on set, it's not going to be in the editing room.

The first time I saw Kiki was in Beale Street. And this is a radically different movie from Beale Street. What made you think she could do this and that she was right for this? It's funny you say that because when i was casting for nile i uh barry had invited me to go see an early screening of bill street and i saw kiki in there and i was like wow she's really good but no way could she play nile she's way too soft and again so idiotic as a director to say because an actor acts, but I had Kiki come in to audition and she, she was it. She had that innate strength.

She had the innate vulnerability. But I believed her as a Marine. And that was something I wasn't seeing in some of the other people I had, I had seen. It's, I mean, that's the key with, with women in this genre.

You have to believe their toughness. And it's not just learning choreography and throwing punches. You have to have that swagger. And I believed Kiki. And on top of that, she's such a dope actress. So I'm excited about Kiki. What about for you as a director? Was there anything on a film like this, with this kind of budget and the set pieces and the fight sequences? Did anything surprise you or was anything more was, it was great to be able to talk to Patty Jenkins before I started shooting.

She was such a great resource. And she talked about the stamina that you need to have to get through something like this. You, you can't get sick. And if you do get sick, nobody cares. You show up. I mean, I, you're first on set, you're last to leave. And then once you leave, then you're, you're looking at dailies from the night before. You're talking to your editor. You're working on shots for the next day's work. It is a nonstop thing. And it takes incredible stamina. So that was something that I had to wrap my head around. But I think, again, being an athlete is all about stamina also. So I think that was helpful. And I think, you know, it's shooting action is, you just learn a lot. And again, as I said, it takes a lot for the actors to end a lot of work. It's a tremendous amount of work as a director. And I had such an incredible team, Jeff Haberstad, second director, Danny Hernandez, our fight coordinator, who is so dope and Bryson Counts. I mean, to have that team around me to help me out in terms of making this

jump to the genre was so invaluable. The fact that they were so respectful as a, you know, I've heard horror stories of, you know, stunt teams being very disrespectful to female directors. The fact that I did fight before though, that kind of dispelled any myth for them that I didn't know what I was talking about. But also it's, it's just the bigness. I remember the first day I stepped on set to shoot, we started with the plane fight scene. And I walked onto the stage. And it's funny, because obviously, I'd been watching the work of the plane and knew what they were doing. But that first day of stepping on stage in this huge, huge, it just felt like a hangar uh and this plane that we built that was life-size way up in the air

surrounded by you know painted sky i was like oh my god you know i'm not in kansas anymore like this is big i mean again my last film i did was seven million dollars you know and uh beg borrow and steal for everything we're here we built a plane and it is way up in the air. And I'm going to be shooting this film. That was a pretty dope moment. Something you said earlier about this being an action drama reminded me of something that Roger Ebert once wrote about one of your movies.

He said that there is such a thing as feeling superior to your emotions, but I trust mine. And I always thought that was an interesting... He wrote about Secret Life I trust mine. And I always thought that was an interest. He wrote about secret life of bees. And I always thought it was an interesting way to think about your movies in particular, which are very unafraid to be earnest and direct. And I feel like a lot of action movies and comic book movies, especially now are kind of glib and very joke centric.

And like, that's cool. I like those movies, but I thought this was an interesting choice to play this, like very straight and very dramatic. Um, was that something that you brought to it or that, is that why they came to you?

Like what was the, the dynamic to make that the case? I think, um, as I said, they, they love my prior work. They love,

love and basketball. They, uh, love beyond the lights and love what I did with the characters. That was something they said a couple of times, what you did with the characters, you believe the characters. And that's what they wanted for this. They loved these characters. They didn't want a glib film. Obviously, we want levity and we want to entertain, but they wanted more for this story. And for me, one of the things that I brought to it, and Greg was absolutely open to it, part of my preparation to shoot this, I read this

great book called On Killing, which is the definitive book for soldiers and written by a soldier. And the basic theme of it is that taking a life is as damaging to your psyche as your fear of losing your life. And that was something that I don't think we've ever seen in films like this. Because as you said, usually somebody kills somebody and there's a joke or a glib thing. And I just thought for these soldiers who've been living for so long and having to take life you know take a life to save more lives i just thought that was an interesting thing to to bring to the story and to both andy and both nile and i felt that it gave it a depth um that intrigued me and and hopefully an audience you've talked before about liking working in the studio system on other films and the studio system has

changed a lot since you started making movies initially and this is a netflix movie was this any different as far as that experience goes and and what do you make of the state of studio filmmaking right now yeah i mean i like working in the studio system because i know the film is going to see the light of day you know know, that's the biggest thing, more money and distribution. Of course, if I could make a movie independently where it's just 100% my voice in the mix, that would be amazing. But that's not our industry. So, you know, it's always about fighting for your vision and making sure that that shows up on screen um i don't you know the the beauty of being at netflix was a couple things one they wanted a a film uh action film starring women and that is not what our industry studios were clamoring for i mean we get a couple. And this year, actually, I was excited about this year

because there were about six big tentpole films directed by women that were all supposed to come out in this year. And, you know, somebody's messing with us because they killed our watershed year. But again, I was excited about that. But Netflix was looking for that um they gave us way more money than a studio would and uh you know we were able to make this film and I guess there's something to be said of not having to worry about the box office um I'm just I'm honestly I'm very curious as what what it's going to feel like because this is the first thing that I've done on Netflix. And, the majority of my films, I was always told they don't travel, so you don't get any theatrical release overseas. Now it's 160 countries.

That's pretty amazing. So I'm excited to see what it's going to feel like. You know, you've worked steadily for the past 25 years, but you've made just four feature films. Your movies don't really lose money, and most of them have hardcore cult followings. When you step outside of the experience that you've been

having, what do you make of that? Why do you think that's the circumstance? Is your point, why only four films in this amount of time? I think relative to the results, not just that you've only had the chance, but specifically like whether the films

have an audience in real time, like when the movie comes out, and then also the audience that grows for the films. I'm leading to love and basketball questions is really what I'm telling you. Well, I mean, I'll answer both. I am very selective of what I do. I have to be absolutely passionate about it. It's foremost, I love what I get to do. I love that I get to tell stories and make films.

It's very, very hard. You're just in a sustained fight to fight for your vision. Anything I do, I have to make sure I'm so passionate about it. I have two boys. I have a husband. If I'm going to be away, it has to mean something. And so I'm also selected because of that. But I mean, I hope it's the passion that I feel for these projects. That means I'm putting my whole self into them and telling stories that mean something to me. I mean, as an artist, for your films to have longevity, it means everything. That means that people are seeing your film two, three, four times. And in terms of Love and Basketball,

there are people that come up to me and say, I watched it every single day my freshman year of college. Like, that's insane to me and hum humbling and I wish I could bottle it up and know exactly what it is because I can put it into everything I do but um all I all I can chalk it up to is telling a story that was not really part of the mainstream and um people seeing themselves in that character no matter who you were, because of what I was trying to say to the world, which was,

you know, be yourself. Yeah. I mean, we love that movie at the ringer. We've done a rewatchables about it. We wrote a story about it on the 20th anniversary. There's,

you have a huge, huge, huge fan base at our company. Is it harder to get movies like that made now from your point of view? Yeah. You know, I, I really do wonder if I pitched that today, would somebody buy it? I, I just don't know. Um, I will say this, um, you know, having done this for 25 years, which is so frightening.

Um, you know, I get asked if I'm discriminated against as a, as a black female director. And I don't feel that because I, you know, I can make a movie a year if I want. What gets discriminated against are my choices, which is films that are focused on about to be announced that focus on Black women as the leads. They're both so dope. They're both big. And they weren't fights for the first time in my career. We're not fights. That says a lot. and I really hope that that energy continues. I give so much praise to Black Panther, which changed culture and changed the industry, but that's amazing to me. I ask that in part because of the characters that you put in the center of your movies, but also in part, and we talk about it on the show all the time with lots of filmmakers,

because it was a straight ahead drama and it was a sports movie. And I feel like you don't see either of those as much now too. I was wondering if you had ever considered trying to do another sports movie too. I mean, sports movies are great. They just have an inherent thing where you just get caught up in it. Like a film like The Rookie with Dennis Quaid. I mean, I love that film. I could watch it open up for hoop dreams. I've seen a thousand times. So there's just that

inherent thing in a sports film. For women, though, has there been three, maybe total? I can't... Bend It Like Beckham, Love and Basketball. There was that one way back when,

like 20 years, no, maybe 30 years ago. A League of Their Own? Oh my God, thank you. Yeah, League of Their Own, which I love so much. So, I mean, what is that? Why isn't that? So, yes, I absolutely do want to do another sports film. But I think the best sports films are what I'd hope to do with Love and Basketball, where, you know, it was a love story set in the world of basketball.

So I was able to tell two stories, League of Their Own, you know, that sisterhood and that sibling rivalry, you know, set in the backdrop of such an incredible time with baseball. I mean, there's so many stories to tell. There's so many great athletes. So it's really like, what is the best story that I want to tell that says something bigger? Because I think sports is a great way to tell the story of America. When are you going to tell the Serena Williams story? Well, they're doing it now with King Richard. I know, but that's named after Richard. It's

not named after Serena. Yeah, I read the script. That was dope. Oh my God. Yeah. Can you tell me anything more about what you're doing next? Do you know? They haven't been announced yet, but one is based on another really good graphic novel. And the other is a really, it's a dope film. It's hard not to talk about it, but I have to keep it quiet until they do the announcement, but it's it's it's great okay i'll take that um we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen have you been watching anything great in quarantine wow um the last great thing i saw was never have i ever um mindy kaling that show um i didn't know what to expect i I just saw it trending on Netflix. I was like, okay, I'll check it out. And I ended up seeing the finale

because I couldn't stop watching. I had to bring my son to baseball training and I'm sitting in the car and I'm sobbing as I'm watching the finale. I was like, God, please don't. I don't want anybody to walk over and think like, you know, somebody died. But it wrecked me that, that much. And I love shows that can do that to me. Just made me feel that much. And I love that it was, it was like a show like My So-Called

Life, which I loved so much back in the day. It had that feeling, yet it was this young Indian girl and you got to see her culture and experience her culture and it didn't make it feel smaller. I just thought it made it just more interesting. And I hope that, you know, our industry can understand that, that sometimes specificity can make something more universal. I think your movies do the same thing. Thanks for doing the show, Gina. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thanks again for listening to the show. Next week on The Big Picture,

Amanda and I will dig a little deeper into Palm Springs with a spoiler chat about one of the year's most fun movies. And I'll also have an interview with the movie's writer-director, Max Barbecao, and one of its stars, Kristen Milioti. See you then.