The Big Picture - The David Fincher Rankings, Part I

Episode Date: September 22, 2020

It's Fincher Week at The Ringer, so Sean and Amanda are teaming up with Chris Ryan to present a highly sophisticated, meticulous ranking of the filmmaker's work that would make Fincher proud. In Part I, they analyze his feature films, TV series, commercials, and music videos and build a hierarchy of the top 25 Fincher works. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Chris Ryan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken Original Lager is made with pure malt and their famous A-Yeast, which makes Heineken an all-season, all-the-time kind of beer. We're transitioning from summer to fall, hopefully here in Los Angeles, a perfect time to get out on the back porch and crack open a crisp Heineken, pick up a pack, or have it delivered today and drink responsibly. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show, that's right, about the man, the myth, the director, David Fincher.

Joining us to celebrate the great filmmaker is The Big Picture's Eduardo Saverin, and we are diluting him all the way down to 0.03%. It's Chris Ryan. What's up, bud? You better lawyer up, asshole. Chris, I'm very glad you're here. Amanda, there are a lot of reasons we're talking about David Fincher this week. What are some of those reasons? Can you help us understand?

It's Fincher season, really. It is the 25th anniversary of seven which apparently you guys covered on the rewatchables this weekend once again rewatchable is a really flexible definition to each his or her own but it is a fantastic film later this fall is also the 10th anniversary of the social network and of course at some point this fall hopefully we will be seeing mink from david fencher and netflix so it's sean it's your time and i just want to and chris too this is really it's both of you together where your interests align it's like a it's a chris and sean christmas um and i i'm happy for you i want you to know that it also turns out we were wrong to have faith in humanity, which means it's also Fincher's

season. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. Turns out he was right in so many ways. In addition to this podcast and the second part of this podcast later this week, it's David Fincher week on theringer.com. So we're really throwing our weight behind Fincher. And I think we should just talk with some generic biographical details about the man because I think some of these things are overlooked when we explore his work. What we're going to do here on this episode is basically talk about as much of his work as we can. And we're going to, in true ringer fashion, rank those things. We're going to rank things that are not just films, not just television shows, but music videos and TV commercials and maybe even some other ephemera over time.

But Fincher is a fascinating byproduct of the 1970s New Hollywood in a bunch of different ways. He was born in Colorado, but he was raised mostly in Marin County in Northern California. And he grew up with a very interesting next door neighbor named George Lucas. And as a young boy, fell in love with filmmaking, watching a documentary about the making of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. He moved to Oregon as a teenager. He directed plays in high school. Like so many filmmakers, he worked as a projectionist at a second run theater and got a chance to see a lot of movies in that work. Then at a very young age, he got a job working for John Cordy at American Zotrope.

Then he got a job at the age of 22, working at Industrial Light and Magic and got a job working for John Cordy at American Zoetrope. Then he got a job at the age of 22 working at Industrial Light and Magic and got a chance to work on Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, Return of the Jedi. Becomes a full-time commercial director at sub-age 25 after this notorious commercial for the American Cancer Society, which we'll talk about a little bit here. By 1991, at the age of 28, he was a feature filmmaker entrusted with a major franchise in Alien 3. So Chris, you and I, obviously, we adore, we worship Fincher in many ways. We've written about him collectively. We've podcast about him many times. But for the sake of posterity, what is it that you connect to about David Fincher? David Fincher is really different than I am. I like to think of myself as a pretty nice, pretty optimistic, but not particularly careful person.

And I am very drawn in art to things that are a little bit or a lot different than that. I think I think I'm really drawn to movies and filmmakers who dominate me and make me feel subservient and heap pressure on me and heap like illicit huge reactions from me, whether they're intellectual or emotional. And he does that. really cool about revisiting his work and reading interviews with him and watching interviews with him and listening to his director's commentary and listening to other people talk about him is that you just realize that not a single thing you see or hear in one of his movies was not considered.

It was not carefully thought about. It was thought about to provoke something in you. I am not that way. You know what I mean? I think I am a lot more like, let's let it rip. Let's have fun. Let's see what happens. And it's really interesting that I'm so drawn. I mean, it's not hardly the most interesting thing about Fincher is my reaction to it. But I'm so drawn to somebody who is like, no, you need to have your cufflink look like that

in the back of a frame. Because because otherwise someone's eye might wander in the wrong direction than I want them to. And so I just feel like I am in the presence of like a master storyteller when I'm watching his movies. Amanda, before I get your thoughts on Fincher, Chris, do you think that's why we're friends? Are you fascinated by my organizational power? Definitely. When people are like, why do you like sean i'm just like dude it's wait wait it's the excel sheets are people asking you why do you like sean many people are asking me okay amanda what about for you you are uh like me in many ways type a organized um a bit more obsessive, and a bit stormier than Chris

Ryan, a bit more cynical. So what is it about Fincher that you connect with? The same things, but from the perspective of seeing myself or what I would like to be. I mean, for me, it's control, perfectionism, obsession, which are all offshoots of control as you know my therapist likes to tell me but um yeah someone who is just on it and I think like Chris I respond to this presence of this idea of being in the presence of a master filmmaker like everything is excellent and you know we'll go through Fincher's filmography he does a thing that he does a lot of things that like I, Amanda Dobbins, aesthetically don't really like. I mean, you know, my guy never shoots like in broad daylight except for one very scary scene, which we will talk about. But like the shadows and the griminess and everything's like two and a half hours long.

And it's like always about sad boys. And I'm just like, you know, those are things that traditionally I have no patience for. But my guy is just excellent at what he does. And everything is so intentional and so considered. And you know exactly why he's doing it. And it's just undeniable. And I have so much respect for that level of perfectionism and control. I would love to be able to control any part of my life or world the way that he is able to control his filmmaking process. And I think, you know, we'll talk about that approach a bit because other people don't always like it as much.

And I think I also relate to the fact that a lot of people are like, David Fincher is really good at his job, but like, what an asshole. And I'm like, well, maybe, maybe I, I relate to that somehow. And he's like, he's doing it for the assholes.

So to say, which is not a particularly invoked thing to say right now. And obviously you have to walk a line with it, but yeah, there's nobody more on it. In my opinion. You know what the thing is, is I was watching,

cause we watched seven for rewatchables and obviously even going back through a lot of his work for these pods that we're going to do this week. He kind of makes other movies just look like shit. You know, when you watch one of his films and then you try and go watch something else, notice how you feel. Notice how long it takes you to get used to movies that are not made by him. If you've been

in the zone where you're watching Seven and Panic Room and Fight Club and even these films that maybe have flaws or maybe these movies who are just like kind of popcorn films or whatever and then go try to watch another movie like that and you will see that there's just a difference. There's just

a huge qualitative difference between the stuff that he makes and the stuff that there's just a difference. There's just a huge qualitative difference between the stuff that he makes and the stuff 99% of other filmmakers make. Yeah, he's definitionally the form follows function filmmaker. It's not just that he is a perfectionist and is meticulous, and it's not just that he is consumed by obsessive stories and in pursuit of control all the time. It's that he also has the skill. He has the craft. He has the eye. He sees what things should look like. Like I am a control freak, but I have no skills. And so all that manifests in is spreadsheets and podcast outlines. And so if you have talent, if you have a point of view, and he obviously does, and we'll talk a lot about that here as well, it can manifest into

something special. And you can feel when you watch his movies, huge weight of influence from a number of different filmmakers, especially, you know, Hitchcock, who's been a talking point on this show in recent weeks, and filmmakers like Alan Bakula, and Stanley Kubrick, of course, and Ridley Scott, and Spielberg and Lucas to some extent. And that whole generation of new Hollywood in the 70s filmmakers. But he does really his version of those things. He doesn't feel, unlike say De Palma, who is actively paying homage to Hitchcock throughout his films. I never look at a Fincher movie and think something is derivative he may be nodding to Clute for example

but you never look at it and think like oh he ripped that from Clute and he does it in a couple of different ways and I wonder if it's his training that in some ways commodified the way his things look because starting out as a music video director starting out as a commercial

director you have to appeal to a kind of commercial sensibility in a way that maybe some 70s filmmakers were not as interested in. Alan Pakula was not trying to make commercials for sneaker companies. He was making a kind of transgressive modern art that just happened to come in the cinematic format and so fincher develops all of these things these styles these approaches not just the sort of the meticulous insert shots not just that really propulsive style of editing that he's a fan of but he has this like ice blue color palette that you can see in almost all of his work he is always doing that ridley scott thing of like smoke and wind and fog and rain in all of his stories because he's like, I don't know, submissive to the elements in a lot of ways, the way that we all are.

And I think that's also like a thematic touchstone in his stuff is you just can't control the world. The world controls you. And you look if you look at all of his protagonists, they're kind of they're all kind of trapped. You know, they're all kind of trapped. They're all kind of stuck. They're all kind of fucked. And I think that's probably the single biggest reason that I relate to him is I relate to the utter powerlessness, the degrading quality of life a lot of the time when it feels like things are happening to you. And Chris, you're such a high-spirited guy. You're such a good guy. I think of you and I think of a decency, a warmth, a friendship. And it's kind of shocking to me that you are so willing to be subservient to his work.

Have you interrogated that personally? Yeah, well, I mean, I love that line he has about when he talked Affleck into doing Gone Girl. And his pitch was basically, this is a guy who gets his nuts put in a vice in the first 10 minutes of this movie, and then we just tighten it for the rest. And I love watching that happen to people. I mean, that's happened to me. Who hasn't that happened to? Who hasn't felt like... Wait, you've had your nuts in a vice?

Metaphorically speaking, yeah. How personal do you want to get here, Chris? Listen, no judgment, okay? I've seen Seven a lot, man. No, but I think that that is heaping pressure on people is where tension comes from. Nobody wants to watch a movie

where everybody just nails it. Where everybody's just like, ah, I got it. There was no obstacles. There was no hurdles. There was no pitfalls. I just nailed it. Nobody wants to see that.

And he seems to take an enormous amount of delight in doing that to his characters. And unlike most other Hollywood filmmakers, often does not reward them at the end with surviving the game. Yeah, there's a real disdain for everything in both the characters and the situations. And really any sort of weakness that I really admire and I relate to the characters who have their balls trapped in a vice like you don't you don't sympathize with them it's almost like well you got caught and now we have to watch you suffer and you know maybe that is just a

reflection of my own cynicism but that's often how the world goes and he he doesn't um back away from that at all and i find that really upsetting a lot of the time like some of these movies are delightful and fun and you can feel the fact that he is also like being the puppet master and having a lot of fun with that and i enjoy that delight and that glee that chris ryan alluded to i mean it's just another form of perversion which we will talk about at great length on this podcast. But sometimes it's fun to watch and sometimes it's really upsetting to watch, but you have that very specific feeling that things are not going to go well and that everybody is being held a little bit in contempt. And I don't know. I guess I get off on that. Here we are on a David Fincher podcast. Isn't it interesting though that we,

there's a line of criticism against a lot of filmmakers is usually about how these filmmakers feel about their characters, whether or not they over-valorize them, over-lionize them, over-identify with them, or whether they have contempt for them. That's something you hear about a lot of early to mid, even contemporary Coen Brothers movies. They don't love their characters. They have disdain for the people in their movies. You never really talk about that

with Fincher. It's almost like, of course he does. Look what he's doing to them. How could he like them if he was doing it and do these things to him? Yeah, I don't think you can watch Seven, which obviously announced him to many people in the world and really worry about that concern too much. He seems more interested in Hell on Earth than he does the sympathies of his own characters. He assaults them. He doesn't make fun of them, though. That's the thing. He doesn't mock people necessarily, I don't think. I think he has some contempt for Mark Zuckerberg and what Mark Zuckerberg represents to the future of our society. But I think maybe that's not true. Maybe he does mock the Affleck character in Gone Girl. Or maybe he's just mocking Affleck. Well, I mean, that's one of the great questions and why I love Gone Girl so much is, I mean, it has its limitations, but as a movie about Ben Affleck, extraordinary and the experience

of being Ben Affleck. And, you know, Chris was talking about how he got Ben Affleck to be in the movie, but I still don't know whether Ben Affleck really understands the movie that was made about him and how much was he was in on the joke or in on the commentary and how much it's happening around him. And that, I mean, that to me is fascinating. One thing that is also fascinating to me about Fincher is the fact that he has not made a feature length film in six years. It's been six years since Gone Girl came out and Gone Girl in many respects was his biggest hit and earned the most money of any movie I believe that he's ever made. And he's well known for this meticulous and

almost bludgeoning style of control with his actors and on his sets. And Amanda, as you noted, that's not exactly in vogue right now to quote a David Fincher music video. And I wonder if, I don't think that that's necessarily the reason why he is not, has not been active as a feature filmmaker during that time. In that time, he has helped oversee the launch of two Netflix series and really was kind of at the vanguard

of the TV streaming revolution with House of Cards. But if you talk to people who are in the film industry, who know David Fincher demands total control over almost all aspects of moviemaking and studios are less willing than ever to grant that control. And so the kinds of movies that he's wanted to make, and there are a great many unmade David Fincher projects, which we will talk about, I think, in the episode later this week.

But he's tried to get a lot of things off the ground in recent years and hasn't been able to get it and ultimately it seems like certainly there are budgetary concerns because they don't make the kind of mid-level thriller that we love on this show that he excels at and also because studios want control of things they want to be able to run things and david fincher wants to run things so i'm curious what you guys think about kind of his standing in the modern movie culture make notwithstanding because we haven't seen it and you know if you think there are maybe some other reasons why he hasn't been as productive as a movie maker in the last half decade I mean he's to hear him tell it's because he doesn't get offered those movies for the exact reasons that

you're saying but I think um I think he'd be willing to participate. I mean, look, he's not like a snob. He makes adaptations of bestselling novels and huge stories. Facebook, Gillian Flynn bestsellers. And if somebody was like, Seven is coming out in three months, you'd be like, that's going to be a hit. The idea behind these movies is usually incredibly mainstream.

It's accessible. Yeah. These are accessible mass appeal movies. I think the real reason is that most movies that get made and get pushed now are made with an idea towards making several sequels and several and making them part of a franchise and using them as part of like launching pad for a larger 360-degree multi-platform effort. And that requires the participation and sign-off of so many people. And ultimately, David Fincher does not want to probably share his vision with Kevin Feige or whoever. You know what I mean? David Fincher might make an incredible Marvel movie, but he's going to make it the best way he wants to make it, not so that they can also do Thor,

God of Thunder in three years, you know? Like it's not about like setting anything else up other than the way, the best way to tell the story. Amanda, what do you think? Why do you think he is not as much in the center of movie culture right now? Well, I think everything that you guys said is true. And I just want to say, kind of on set strategy aside,

just the ability to be like, no, we can't do it my way. So I'm not going to do it. That's inspiring to me. That is the definition of success. Like David Fincher made it. That's exhilarating. I would also point out that he's been making Mindhunter and seems pretty involved in that.

And that sure seems like it takes a lot of time. Definitely. It takes a lot of time to watch it. So, um, and, and, and he has,

he was at the forefront of prestige directors, switching to TV and kind of making premium TV, what it is. So you can read that a lot of different ways. It sure seems like he just has more control and possibility, um, in TV right now. And specifically with mindhunter and you know things take time it sure seems like his projects take time on the flip side of what you're talking about sean and amanda you know we

there's the one conversation about like why isn't fincher more a part of mainstream filmmaking these days and he hasn't made a feature in a while. And obviously, I almost feel like Mank is like, and I'm sure we'll talk about this, is like he did House of Cards and Mindhunter for Netflix and then was like, now pay me back. Yes.

I get to make this passion project. But don't you think that we also don't really talk about him in the same ways that we talk about Tarantino and Anderson and some of the other auteurs that he is either generationally related to or just in general, the current crop of quote-unquote great filmmakers.

I feel like his commercialism oddly sets him aside from those people. I was thinking about probably the four people we've talked about the most on this podcast, both you two and us three together, would be PTA, Quentin, Soderbergh, and Fincher. And I think that the latter two are actually really interesting to think about together because Soderbergh is what we were talking about in the beginning, which is sort of like, let's try it. Let's try it. Let's do this. Let's try this.

Maybe I'll do this and then I'll set it up over here, but then I'll walk away, but then I'll come back and edit it. All this stuff that he's just messing around with. And Fincher is equally commercial and equally hard to pin down and equally hard to assign a narrative, psychological, thematic worldview to, but is much more precise and much more stingy with his product, I think. But I was wondering, why don't we talk about him the way we talk about Noah Baumbach? You know what I mean?

The way we talk about somebody who is just like, oh, I have this emotional relationship to this filmmaker and that's what makes it great. Because his movies don't deal with emotions, which is what makes them good. But I mean, there is like there is a repression and a distance that I think is like unbelievably powerful in David Fincher's work. And I told you guys we would talk about repression before we started. And like, here we are. But I think it's harder to have that emotional oh my god I'm

a child of divorce reaction um to like seven or fight club or even the social network and you know the social network is an interesting balance of like Fincher's complete lack of emotion kind of in in conversation with Aaron Sorkin's like mega sentimentality. And I think that's what makes it so much exciting, you know, so exciting is that it finds that balance, but I don't know what are, what are you supposed to hang on to feeling wise from a David Fincher movie besides like dread and cynicism.

And we've got to talk to the big pictures. Number one, feelings merchant, Sean fantasy. Yeah. I mean, this is why this is, this is my guy.

I think he's more interested in psychology than feelings. And psychology can be a very powerful tool when you're a filmmaker. And he's able to unpack and explore consciousness without necessarily dealing with the explosive external experience of emotion. And obviously, repressed gentleman that I am, I can understand that in a very acute way. But I think also, I mean, I think the point that you're making, Chris, is on the one hand, a bit absurd in the context of this conversation.

Because for me, when you talk about directors, like he's at or near the top of the list over the last 30 years and is very important. of this conversation. even Amanda and I, like we can kind of talk about Soderbergh on every episode and have fun and talk about Tarantino on every episode and have fun. And so, you know, there are other filmmakers, you know, we love Greta Gerwig on this show, but she's only made a few movies. So you can't talk about her work. And Fincher has a pretty long lifespan for an active filmmaker. You know, he has 10 feature films and he has these two TV shows. You know, I wonder if he has more in common with an emotions merchant like Steven Spielberg, though, than he does some of those other directors in his kind of contemporary cohort that you're talking about because of that mainstream accessible approach to storytelling, though. You know, he's telling thrillers. He's telling docudramas about the most important companies of our time. I mean, he adapted a Stieg Larsson novel, and he planned to adapt three Stieg Larsson novels. So his

incredible interest in reaching as many people with his darkness as possible is such an interesting kind of inversion of what we expect from a serious filmmaker. And while he never got his chance and probably never will get his chance to make the Fantastic Four or whatever, he was up for Spider-Man in the 2000s. And he made a pitch. His pitch for Spider-Man is legendary because he wanted to do old man Spider-Man.

He wanted to do Peter Parker as a photographer in his 50s over the hill, but still has his spider powers. It's so creepy. It's bizarre. It's so fucked up. Just an old man with shit coming out of his hands. It's so strange.

It's bizarre. And he wanted to do that before the comic book movie revolution. I mean, the Sam Raimi Spider-Man is really the first of that generation of movies. This is well before the MCU and all that stuff. And so even then he was trying to subvert the mainstream, but he still wanted to make a Spider-Man movie. He still had an idea for a Spider-Man movie. And I think that that really speaks to me. That desire to kind of be mass, but on your own terms is so interesting. And Mank, in many ways, I think on paper feels like the first time, maybe ever, he has gone outside of that. It really feels like a one for me to the nth power because

it's obviously this Netflix film is a sort of biopic of sorts of Herman Mankiewicz, who was the co-writer of Citizen Kane along with Orson Welles and the film was written by his father Jack who was a journalist who worked for the Associated Press among other places and this has been a passion project for many years for Fincher and it doesn't have that girl with the dragon tattoo social network you know gone, you know what it is right away, kind of, kind of experience. And I guess it's a little bit unclear to us if he made those movies in the 2010s in part,

because it was just harder to get movies made. And these were the kinds of movies that he could get made and could apply his interest to the game and, and, um, and fight club and movies like that were a little bit, were significantly more esoteric in terms of like the stories that they were trying to tell but i find i just find mank as a as a cultural object in 2020 to be really really interesting not just because it's a hollywood history not just because it's

fincher but not just because it's black and white but because it's just not mainstream at all and i wonder if there's going to be a similar effect here where similar to the Irishman where some people fire it up and they're like oh wow the new film from David Fincher I just finished watching the social network I can't wait and then they're confronted with a lot of an old screen writer talking about William Randolph Hearst that just I don't it's a very curious choice but Amanda what do you what do you think um is animatingating the Mank decision making? Well, I do think it's a little bit personal, which, you know, is interesting. It's obviously a screenplay written by his father. And, you know, if he does ever talk about emotions, I would say it's grief.

And I think Benjamin Button, in a lot of ways, is about grief and trying to connect someone. And because that's not how his movies don't like to confront emotion head-on it has to be through uh the lens of like brad pitt as an old baby but you know this at least like it i think given the the nature of the um the origin of the script this probably has something to do with some form of emotions though i'm fascinated to see which emotions that they are and how they express themselves. I do also think that like old Hollywood was a terrible, racist, exploitative place.

Like there, there is like plenty of room for everything that we know from David Fincher, aside from maybe like, you know, what's in the box, like in this movie and who knows, I wouldn't put it past him. So I'm,

I'm, I'm very curious to see how the Fincher of it all expresses itself in Mank because I like, I don't think it's just going to be, you know, La La Land. I mean, no one thinks it's going to be La La Land, but you know what I mean?

Of like that rosy vision of old Hollywood. I think there will be a lot of grievances. See, are you in on Mank? I'm all in on Mank. I'm very curious to see if this is his silence, if this is the one that it's like, I've really always wanted to make movies like this. I don't think he's that guy. He's a commercial director. He's a music video director. And all the movies he's made are essentially genre pictures blown out to the nth degree so i would imagine that this is more

about him getting to make a movie that's obviously very personal in its origin but i you know the making of citizen kane is like a pretty gripping story you know and and the characters involved in it or it's it's got all the stuff that he's interested in. It's got power. It's got credit. It's got creative genius. It's got people steamrolling each other. So I'm pretty fascinated, but I don't necessarily think

it's going to be... He's never struck me as the kind of person where it's like, were it not for the machinations of capitalism, he would be making Jim Jarmusch movies.

These are the movies he would make. He's way more an accolade of Ridley Scott than John Cassavetes. And I think that that will probably inform even his more personal quote-unquote artistic work. I agree with you. Should we get down to the business

of arbitrarily ranking things that he's made over the last 40 years? Yes? Sure. So, you know, in the past, we've chosen top fives and built Hall of Fames and we've built career arcs and we're going to do something

just a bit more expansive here because there's a lot to go through. In fact, revisiting the commercials and music videos of David Fincher yesterday, I realized that he has been one productive son of a bitch over the last 40 years. He's made a lot of stuff. And we think of the movies as the totemic works, but he keeps himself really, really busy. And I think that that partially answers the question I was asking about

kind of what the last six years have been like for him, because even in that time, he's made music videos and he's made a lot of commercials and he's directed several episodes of television so he's he's got a lot under his belt we're gonna go we're just gonna choose 25 of these things even though he's got well over a hundred articles of cinema on his cv over time and i think we're just gonna have to debate a little bit over what goes where and this will be an opportunity for us to kind of talk about each individual piece. And even though I think movies are much more valuable than all the other things that he made, there is a lot of value in some of these smaller, more contained objects and how we choose to rate them or not rate them, I think will lead to some interesting conversation. And I want you guys, and I know I don't have to encourage you to do this, but I want you to

completely upend whatever I have suggested here as we go through this format. If I have something in the mix here and you feel like I've got it way too high or way too low, you can accost me live on this podcast if you so choose. I want to start by putting Alien 3 at number 25. We have to do an autopsy. What? I told you. We have to make sure how she died and i told you she drowned i'm not so sure i have to see inside of her you're disorientated half your systems i have a very

very good reason well perhaps you'd like to share that reason. So that we can open cleanly with a movie and we can talk about maybe why this movie is not an iconic film and a little bit of its history, which I think will open a portal to conversation about where his career went from here. You guys like Alien 3? I do, yeah.

I like all the Alien movies, though. You like Alien Resurrection? Yeah. I like all the Alien movies, though. You like Alien Resurrection? Yeah, I like all the Alien movies. On a baseline of do I like Alien movies more than, I don't know, Kissing Booth? Yeah. I like Alien.

No shots at Kissing Booth, but I'm just saying Incredible double feature. I'm pretty into the alien movies. And, and I, I know why you have this here and I respect the hustle. And I definitely don't want to start this with like a big argument. So I'm going to allow it.

No, no. I wonder. So let me ask a question, Sean, would alien three be here? If Fincher himself wasn't like, I almost quit movie making after this

and they took it away from me and never again and whatever? No, it wouldn't. Okay. I understand that he effectively told his story and that led to the way that we feel about his work. And when he is more exultant about an experience, you're swayed to believe that it's more successful in some respects. But I think also Alien 3 is just not really that good. Even the assembly cut, which is the version that is closest to the vision that he had for making the movie, which was released, I don't know, 10 or 15 years after it was originally made in 1992,

is still not that good. And it's got to reach a high bar because Alien and Aliens are two of the greatest movies ever made. It's one of the greatest horror films ever made and one of the greatest action movies ever made. And Alien 3 is kind of neither fish nor fowl. It's a little bit unclear ultimately what he's going for. And it's a very troubled movie for a lot of reasons. There was a filmmaker who was attached to it, who was going to make it. And that person dropped out. And then Fincher was brought on board. At the time, he was a very, very hot music video director. And he had started Propaganda Films, which was this music video company. Winner of many VMAs. He was highly regarded in the commercial directing space.

And he's got this mediocre script. He's got an incredible cast and an interesting idea, a kind of prison colony planet where Ripley crash lands along with a xenomorph, or at least the makings of a xenomorph. And he gets to do some interesting things. And there are some cool shots in this movie, as there are in all David Fincher movies. And he gets these great performances out of charles dutton and charles dance and um sigourney weaver is always good but the movie is a weirdly kind of stiff to me and not very propulsive as far as alien movies go and i've been i've been tricked into the into

believing the hype on it being just okay. Amanda, do you want to defend Alien 3? No, I don't. I mean, narratives are important. I am with you on that, and I think directors absolutely, and especially directors who are as much control freaks as David Fincher,

shape our understanding of their work. And also, this kind of movie isn't really my jam, and David Fincher gave me permission not to care about it, and I'm rolling with it. Okay. This movie falls off a cliff when Charles Dance dies. Yeah, and that's 45 minutes into the movie. It's a good 45 minutes, though.

Yeah, it's great. It's solid. I'm very interested to see what the rules of this game are going to be, because Alien 3 is not a great film but I do appreciate Alien 3 more than like a lot of gap commercials okay then say that the rules of this game are you

Chris Ryan are here to have a voice and to challenge Sean why do I have to give you this pep talk every single time like your light shine buddy I abide by the rules of the land and that's why you are David Fincher acolyte that's right buddy? I abide by the rules of the land. That's why you are a true David Fincher acolyte. That's right.

That's why you're a soldier and Amanda and I are generals leading the charge. That's right. This is a nightmare. Number 24. Does somebody want to make a suggestion from what I've got here on the lineup? Go ahead, General Dobbins. You want to put the Gap commercial on here?

Well, I thought that would be a funny thing to do. Yeah. Also, I had never seen this Gap commercial and it involves a man like putting, like doing a golf putt. And then I was like, oh, I see why Chris likes this. This Gap commercial,

if this goes at 24. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, girl. Before you walk out that door. This is fucking bullshit. This is a top 10, 30 seconds of anything ever filmed. Oh my God. Then put it higher.

I am. What are you talking about? It's not number 24. It's not number 24. That's fine. And I look forward to hearing you explain the merits of this commercial, which is not even among my top 10 Gap commercials, which I have in my head. But whatever.

Briefly, for context, this is a 2014 campaign called Dress Normal that David Fincher was brought on board to direct, I guess, during the production of Gone Girl. I don't know where he finds the time. My favorite of these commercials, and I assume it's chris's as well takes place at a driving range where a model is dancing to a 1950s pop song while a guy in a leather jacket hits the driver off the t uh it's a commercial that makes no sense and it definitely rules i'm not sure if it rules harder than other things on this list though I think it but what do you think Chris what do I think what do you feel

I feel like a deep connection to the to the characters in this commercial I once loved the woman who was dancing in jeans and I'm like cool jeans and then I'm also like your boyfriend seems pretty cool too,

because he's got good form off the tee. He shot it in the city of industry in one night, I think in the middle of the night. And it's just like a perfect commercial. Let me ask you something. The two of you as people who know Davidcher's work and as people who like golf, do you think that David Fincher respects you as golfers after watching this commercial? I don't want to take away. I don't think David Fincher would like me.

That's not what this is about. I really, really want certain filmmakers to like me. I expect David Fincher to think I'm pathetic. I expect David Fincher to know that I have a golf training aid called a G-Box and he should want me to drown in the Pacific Ocean because of that. Okay. As long as you know that, then I'm fine with putting this commercial wherever. Okay. A pertinent question. Do you think David fincher has ever held a golf club in his hands absolutely i think he thinks they're cool and also runy mara uses one to hit stellan scarsguard in uh dragon tattoo so i think he thinks it's a useful useful weapon and aesthetically pleasing um how do you think he hits that 60 degree wedge chris you think soft

stiff yeah he's got a fuck you attitude. That's right. Yeah. That's what a lot of people said. Amanda, I'm surprised you're not riding for this more. This is a beautiful commercial. It captures an essence

of American life, golf notwithstanding, that is essential to his point of view. He's all about, he's a brilliant commercial director because he makes product into beauty.

That's your job. These may be the two happiest people in his entire filmed work. These people aren't happy. They're like, I don't even trust this Gap commercial. I'm like, you, David Fincher, have never danced happily in the street. Also, you've never met a golfer. Like, this is all made up and making fun of these people. That's, you know, that's also,

also I have a connection to the Gap commercials of the late 90s and early 2000s. Remember the one with Claire Danes and Patrick Wilson? That's a great one. All the khakis ones. And I don't know, the actual joyful ones. And this to me is what David Fincher does very well, which is make a mockery of everything on the screen. But I don't know.

I don't trust it. Let's talk about a couple of other commercials and then we can try to put them in context here. I would say that the company for whom Fincher has shot the most is Nike and has worked with Wyden Kennedy over many years in collaboration with Nike. And he's got a handful of extremely memorable Nike commercials. And similar to the points about golf, I don't know if David Fincher cares about sports at all.

In fact, I would be surprised if he did. And yet, he has this extraordinary power to capture athletes in action in a way that very few people have over the last 30 years. Chris, you know, the Fate Leave Nothing commercial is one that you pointed out to me many times over the years. You want to explain that one? Yeah, it's a commercial

that basically purports to follow the life story of LaDainian Tomlinson, Sean Merriman, and Troy Palamalu as they grow up from childhood through college into the nfl and to your point sean i don't know if he's like i could see him being like a weird like i love the

80s giants you know like but i stopped watching football when when like mark bravaro left but when Mark Bavaro left. But I think that he understands what makes sports bigger than sports. You know what I mean? He looks at those as Greek gods or characters in a Greek epic or something, that they're going on this incredible journey. And that's his ability to understand what makes different stories interesting

is why he can make Social Network. Social Network should not be an interesting movie. It should be just like a court case, or it should be a bunch of dicks yelling at each other about who gets credit for something. He's able to dig deeper and understand what makes those things objects of fascination. Do you want to put this at 24, this commercial? Would you prefer to put the Instant Karma commercial, which Nike is famed for using the music and the images of the revolutionary 60s and 70s American experience and helping them, using them to sell shoes. And they've done it effectively over the years.

They've used the Beatles revolution. They have used famously in one of Fincher's spots, John Lennon's instant karma. And it's a incredibly, I don't know, captivating 30 second commercial for buying sneakers. Do you think that the leave nothing, the fate leave nothing spot should be there

over instant karma? I think spot should be there and over instant karma i think fate should be over instant karma yeah i agree with that okay so instant karma goes to number 24 we'll just get that out of the way i mean it's not the last time we're going to be talking about nike because he doesn't just make he also doesn't just make these epic you know greek mythological visions of sport he also has like a sense of humor too, which we'll get into in some of his later work. I want to put the house of cards pilot at number 23. How do you guys feel about that? Oh,

Jim Matthews is right. Honorable vice president, former governor of Pennsylvania. He did his duty in delivering the Keystone state. Bless his heart. Now they're about to put him out to pasture, but he looks happy. Yeah.

I'm going to make a, a bargain here that I'm going to make a bargain here that I'm going to really make a fool of myself about Mindhunter in a little while. So we're prepared. I think the legacy of House of Cards in a lot of way has become increasingly complicated. But in terms of a pilot and in lot of way has become increasingly complicated, but in terms of a pilot

and in terms of what that meant in television, that was a big deal. I remember just being like, what is this on my TV? In fact, I remember it debuted, my husband was moving and we just had it on and kind of watched the whole thing. And the moving actually was delayed for a long time because I was like, now I need to watch another episode of this. So I think probably given everything we know now, this is where it needs to be. But I still think the pilot is an achievement. I think so too. Obviously, Chris, you've talked about it on The Watch a lot over the years and what a significant entry it was into the world of television. And similarly to the sort of mainstream work that he pursues, like this was a British series that I think is just like a very

chewable kind of unimportant, but also about the most important things in the world kind of television. And there's a whole wave of other kinds of shows that were happening at this time. You know, a lot of the Shonda Rhimes shows seem to have a similar kind of soap operatic energy about people in extraordinarily serious positions of power um obviously Kevin Spacey in the center of the frame of this show complicates its legacy as Amanda was alluding to but purely as like a filmmaker and a and a maker of things that people want to consume, like this is just heavily proposed like the Flintstones vitamins of TV. You know, it's just very, very consumable and maybe not as good for you as you think it is. Yeah, I mean, it starts binge watching in a lot of ways.

And like that's where we certainly I learned this behavior that has had benefits and also its drawbacks, but it's certainly significant. I don't know what percentage of scenes in David Fincher movies and TV shows are just conversations in a room, but it's pretty high. I think that there's a common feeling that he is this technically proficient or that he he's a flashy director but really i think he's mostly interested in shooting conversation scenes interior conversation scenes and that's almost 99 of what house of cards is so it was in a lot of ways like perfect material and he lets spacey chase the idea of like i'm gonna play this like it's a Shakespeare play. I'm going to do this in like a very hammy, big way. It's got a really good supporting cast. So yeah, I mean, the first couple of seasons of House of Cards are quite good. And this pilot was certainly

pretty breathtaking when it hit. I wanted to put a music video here. Now, he's made over 50 music videos, and a lot of them are for artists like Rick Springfield and The Outfield and Wiretrain. And he really kind of cuts his teeth in the 80s, making these kind of like chintzy looking videos where he's kind of just ripping off Ridley Scott a lot. In particular, the Bob Till You Drop video by Rick Springfield is so weird. I don't know if you guys had a chance to revisit that one, but it's basically like a, it's basically an alien movie set in the middle of a Rick Springfield song, like a bad Rick Springfield song. And so I find that most of the stuff that he does between 84 and, you know, 88, 89 is kind of negligible. You know,

he's, he had this long period of time to kind of figure out what his palette was, the way that he liked to shoot things, what kind of technology he liked to use to shoot these things, what kind of film stock you like to use. He's playing around a lot. And then, uh, I think he, I think he meets Paula Abdul of all people. I think it's really Paula Abdul, the former Lakers cheerleader and pop star. It's bizarrely very closely related to Fincher's development as an artist. I think we might have two Paul Abdul videos on this countdown, which is kind of absurd.

Because when I look back and I listen to these songs just standalone without seeing the videos, Paul Abdul can't sing. Did you guys realize when you were growing up that Paul Abdul can't sing? Take it back. I mean, it is true that the Paula Abdul experience is so tied to those videos and I can see the video as soon as I hear the song,

but please respect Paula Abdul in my presence, okay? I like Paula Abdul's songs a lot and, you know... Yeah, they're really enjoyable. That was like the 99th take of like David Fincher just like eating out

every sense of like emotion or like believability from you. But continue. making these Bob Fosse videos with Paul Abdul for a two-year stretch. I have no idea whether David Fincher thinks Paul Abdul can sing, but I guarantee you he thinks he's an incredible choreographer and dancer. And David Fincher, for this period of time, I think he's sort of moved on from this a bit, although you can still see it when he just decides to expose Daniel Craig's torso at various points and dragon tattoo but he's fascinated with the human body and how it moves and i think so is she um and it's really interesting to watch him kind of like approach this from a way because i always

think of musicals as this idea of like you know the the person filming it or the person choreographing it or directing it is really like attached to like the, like let every voice sing aspect of musicals. But I think Fincher's only interested in the way human bodies move. I think the music is secondary. Maybe the rhythm matters or whatever, but it's fascinating to see him come at something that we think of as so like a, a effusive and full of emotion.

And he's like, no, I'm interested in the way the knee moves. You know, I'm interested in the way an elbow crosses and stuff like that. It's so cool. Yeah. So the video that we're essentially talking about is cold hearted, which is from 1989 and is in fact an homage to a scene from all that jazz, the Bob Fosse film where he's doing

the choreography for take off with us. And this was an interesting video to watch as a seven year old. I would say it, um, it created some new feelings, um, inside of me. Should we talk about the erotic awakening that music videos provided at that

time? Yes. Please speak on it, Chris. Well, I mean, like you had just like a lot of stuff in music videos that was, you wouldn't see

ordinarily let's just put it that way both in terms of dance in terms of uh the human body being exposed and i remember this was on a loop and i i felt things you know what i mean i felt things that as a young man i only felt you, this is the first time going through these things. Then what happened? Walk us through it. How did you physically respond? I learned all the choreography from the cold-hearted video and performed it at our first school dance. Then I had to go into witness protection.

That's the thing. I think in the same way that we're talking about how this guy was able to adapt Stieg Larsson and Gillian Flynn novels he was able to transform um what could be perceived as like a cheesy version of late 80s early 90s pop music which I liked you know just like Amanda liked I I'm not above cold-hearted I dig that song but he made it seem more serious and more beautiful and more transgressive than it actually was because he had this, he had arrived at this very particular style, this editing style, like what Chris is saying, this kind of interest in the physiognomy of humans and the way that he like captured their bodies in very, not just in motion, but kind of in closeup. And it's just a really cool video.

It's not his best video. He's actually got a handful of videos that I would safely describe as high art, but it's just a really cool video. It's not his best video. He's actually got a handful of videos that I would safely describe as high art, but it's a really good video. So we're going to put Coldhearted in at number 22. I think this means that Fate Leave Nothing from the Nike campaign has to go at 21. Chris, can you deal with that?

I can deal. Okay. So we've got 25 through 21. We're going to get through about 10 more picks. But first, let's hear a quick word from our sponsor. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken would like to remind you that it's time for seasonal beers again. That's right.

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responsibly okay we are back we are ranking fincher things we've ranked music videos we've ranked commercials we've ranked films we've ranked shows. We're running the gamut here. I would say we're moving on to tier D. This is 20 through 16. Kind of a mixed bag here. I want to go with an Amanda choice next. I knew that me even getting this above the lowest tier was an achievement. So that's fine.

I'll accept number 20, even though i think you don't appreciate enough um it would be the gone girl director's commentary there's a moment described at the end of this scene where uh nick dunn has to reach into his duffel bag or his backpack and get out a baseball cap that he's bought at the airport and he puts it on and walks away in hopes that people don't recognize him from the television and put together that that's him that he's in their presence and uh i really wanted to be yankees cap uh but being from boston um and not being very professional as an actor ben refused to wear a yankees cap. And we, I mean, it did not come to

blows, but we had to shut down production for four days as we negotiated with Patrick Weitzel over what would be the best thing. Which is an extraordinary document. You know, I think all directors, your mileage may vary on director's commentaries and how much you like to hear it, like kind of people blather on and how much you want to learn about specific shots. But David French really performs in this one and specifically performs about Ben Affleck in a way that definitely became a meme and sort of, you know, an urban legend of the Internet, except it's real and is just hilarious to me and so there's just the baseline him making jokes about ben affleck wanting to wear a yankees hat and not wanting to wear a yankees hat instead of a mets hat and just jokingly and he is being dry and sarcastic and all of this but just roasting affleck because that's a funny thing to do uh and I think that's funny too. And then it does also kind of add to the complexity of what the movie is about.

And to me is also slightly revealing of like the man behind the curtain and how he thinks about things and his approach to the themes and the people in his work, which is what we're talking about on this podcast. So that's it. The Gone Girl director's commentary.

I would also-ara, any thoughts? Yeah, I mean, one of my favorite commentators on his own work. And so any of the DVD commentaries are probably worth your time. I also really like the featurette that comes with Social Network that's like an hour and a half long

where you just get to see a lot of him sitting across from Sorkin interrogating like every line of dialogue and you really do see why social network is probably the best fincher script and why it's also the best sorkin script because fincher's saying this is too cute this is too cute take this out take this out and sorkin's just kind of going with it. And it's an incredible snapshot into a working relationship, but also the movie it could have been and how they made the movie that we got.

I like that pick. I think every single one of his films, you'll find that there is just a treasure trove of bonus features. He does a commentary for almost every film he's made. He willingly captures the making of his movies, but in a very similarly controlled way as the making as the way he makes his movies themselves.

And there's just a lot to explore with his work in an ancillary way. So I think that's a great pick, Amanda. You know, Chris, you, you, you want to fight hard for mind hunter,

right? So I, I had imagined mind hunter being in Tier D, but would you prefer to trade Mindhunter with one of his, I guess, lesser celebrated films and move one of those into this section? Absolutely. Yeah.

I think Mindhunter in total is, for me, in Tier A. Okay, well, we're not going to allow that here. Okay, I'm just saying that that's where I'm coming from. In the Fincher exit survey that we did for their site, I said that Mindhunter was my second favorite after a tie for first. Okay, well, so what do you think should go in tier D? The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo or Panic Room?

Panic Room. I think Panic Room is technically marvelous, but is the film I've returned to the least of his. So funny you should mention that. I just returned to it over the weekend. And, you know, I watched it in my house where I'm watching everything these days. And my house was just a...

The Panic Room. That's what you call your house. That's what my wife calls the house, unfortunately. There's a lot of natural light in my house. And Panic Room is a very hard movie to see. If you are sitting in a home with a lot of natural light, it is a movie that was made for movie theaters. It is a movie that was made for screening rooms.

And that compromised my ability to watch this movie in the way that it was intended. But it's still, I mean, it's head and shoulders above every thriller made in a five-year window around it. It just so happens to be made by the person who is the best at making these kinds of movies. And it's his, you know, whatever, quote unquote, least effective means. But I still liked it a lot. And I was impressed by the level of performance he's able to get out of everybody in the movie. I think it's a really, really fun acting showcase for not just Jodie Foster and Kristen Stewart, but for Forrest Whitaker and Jared Leto, of course, really just going way over the top

in this movie. And then, Chris, your boy Raul. Do you remember Raul played by Dwight Yoakam? Yoakam, man. Yeah. The long white Cadillac himself. I like Panic Room, but I think I agree that it is probably his second least successful film. Anything you guys want to say about it?

I mean, it's still great. And it does that thing that I really love when movies just kind of encapsulate like an entire idea and become a reference point on their own. Like I learned what a panic room was from panic room and the, and it becomes something that is kind of in our consciousness. And that speaks to the effectiveness. I think as Chris said earlier, of just like within 10 minutes, you know, exactly where you are, you know, exactly what's going on, you know, everyone's motivations.

There's like an economy of, um, of storytelling. And also in this movie, just the way that he communicates the space of the house and where everyone is at once, like the choreography of that is really impeccable and you understand it so easily.

I it's, it like the whole thing with the flammable gas and then everyone's arms being on fire. Some of it just like technically has an age as well as other stuff um and that that's okay but that scene is riveting i mean the way the way that he the way that he shoots that scene and the way that it's staged and blocked is so exciting and you're right that you can feel the kind of like turn of the century digital photography and cgi in the movie in a way it's like the fight club title sequence as an entire movie yeah yeah which is you know that does it does make it difficult to celebrate

it in the same way and it does age in a way that some of his other like seven just doesn't age i mean it's seven is going to look modern actually bill made this point on the podcast that it's just going to look modern forever and a movie like panic room can't do that but it's a you know it's just going to look modern forever. And a movie like Panic Room can't do that. But it's a, you know, it's obviously a purposeful come down from Fight Club, right? Fight Club was filmed on over 400 locations. It is this sprawling movie is famously, you know, kind of a flop and regarded with a lot of skepticism and even some anger. And with Panic Room, he obviously just wants to strip it down and make a Hitchcock movie. And he basically makes

Rope and Rear Window and mashes them together and he gets his version of a movie like that. And for that purpose, it's really successful, but in the constellation of his work,

not as successful. Is it perverse to put a Charles Barkley commercial ahead of Panic Room? It might be. As they fool me, I spit and they sue me. I don't understand why they do this to me. Delete, they find. I get all ripped,

take your eggs and steak, maybe turkey off my plate. I don't know if you guys had a chance to revisit Barkley on Broadway. Yeah, it's amazing. It's an incredible commercial. Sick, sick commercial.

Something that I don't think I realized that he had made this until I started researching it, but it's this big, bold, black and white homage to Busby Berkeley movies. And yes, that is a lot of alliterative Bs. I apologize. It was not intentional. But it's such a cool looking commercial.

And it also features an original song written by Chuck D in the commercial. And only in the 90s could you get something like this. Only in the 90s could you get a black and white TV commercial for sneakers starring the most ornery superstar in the sport with a song from the front man of Public Enemy in an homage to 1930s Hollywood. It's so strange, but such a cool commercial. Chris, what do you think of Barclay on Broadway? There's something so weird about how this was an era when you weren't supposed to sell out. I don't think that there was as much participation right at this moment from the arts in commercials

or from artists in commercials. I mean, people would do their Japanese coffee commercial that no one would ever see. But it was really only in the early 2000s, I think, that you started to see a little bit more of mass participation in this kind of stuff. So it's so subversive in a lot of ways, almost because I feel like they're like, we'll take your money, but we're going to do whatever the fuck we want with it. You know, there's a little bit of a rebelliousness to just the act of subverting both Barkley's image and also taking Nike's money and making it like a German impressionistic, you know, a German like film about like a Nike sneaker.

He's made a lot of things like this. He's made a lot of very um knowing homages i mean there's a that famous uh i think it's a coca-cola commercial starring the arquettes when courtney cox and david arquette were still married it takes place all in their apartment it is like a weird commentary on fame and selling out there's that famous i didn't put the brad pitt heineken commercial on on this list but i think that one you could credibly make the sort of the paparazzi Brad Pitt craving a sixer of Heineken commercial on this list.

There is a James Bond homage for the Honda Del Sol. That is one of his most famous commercials. There's one called The Chase for Levi's. He worked with Levi's quite a bit over the years. That's like a kind of an action movie, you know, like a, it's like the French connection with a hit starring a hipster. He's got this like broad palette of commercials that are also fascinating. And, you know, it sounds kind of gross to be praising this stuff. Um, go ahead. Yeah. I was just going to say, you know, I was slightly younger in the nineties when these were coming out. So I remember a lot of them. And I don't think that I was grown up enough to understand the concept of subversion. And so I

think I just watched a lot of these being like, oh, cool, this is what commercials are. And isn't capitalism awesome? And it can contain all this art and multitudes? No, but serious. I mean, I wasn't thinking of capitalism that way either. But definitely in terms of what I, Amanda Dobbins, took away from the 90s, I was struck by of like what I, Amanda Dobbins, like took away from the nineties, I was struck by the fact yesterday that, you know, when Sean was just sending us like tons of YouTube clips unanswered and it was like a bunch of Rick Springfield videos and then a bunch of commercials. And I was like, this is an interesting insight into how our brains were wired. And depending on how old you were and how able you

were to kind of critique the meta text, otherwise it's just like being like, wow, yay capitalism. And I know that's not the intent, but it's funny. But I do think that it was almost this changing of the guard where if David Fincher was 10 or 15 years older, he probably would have come up making exploitation movies. He probably would have come up making B-movies for Roger Corman or something like that, like the way Scorsese and Jonathan Demme did. And instead, he comes up making commercials and music videos, and that's where he cuts his teeth.

So it's almost like a very 70s versus 80s story in that way. Say hello to Tim Selects, Tim's everyday value menu. Enjoy the new spinach and feta savory egg pastry or our roasted red pepper and Swiss pinwheel starting at only $2.99 plus tax. Try one or try our full Tim Selects lineup. Terms apply. Prices may vary at participating restaurants in Canada.

It's time for Tim's. I think even in the commercials that he makes that don't have that burnt acidic approach or vision of the world, he still is able to do things technologically that are just way ahead of the curve. One of the campaigns that I came across that I had no idea he was responsible for was this AT&T campaign called You Will that aired in the 90s, which was on television all the time, or at least the television that I was watching. And it was narrated by Tom Selleck. Exactly. It was narrated by Tom Selleck.

And those commercials basically invent the internet. They invent FaceTime. They invent social networking. They invent all of... They don't invent them per se, but they visualize what would come to be the way that we would communicate with each other in the modern world. And I'm sure some of that comes from what AT&T is asking David Fincher to do, but some of it is him being able to visualize in the same way that say Stanley Kubrick was able to visualize what was

coming in the future. He's able to do it in these, um, these corporate corporately funded products. And I don't know that I necessarily want to celebrate actively what, whether Coca-Cola was successful or not because of David Fincher's campaigns. But it's so interesting that he used these formats to experiment, to play with storytelling in very short formats and to poke fun at this stuff in real time, to poke fun at celebrity, to poke fun at consumerism the same way his movies do. He's able to have his cake and eat it too. And most people in his position aren't able to do that. Now, maybe he'll come under fire 20 years from now for being a craven monster who was cashing checks at a time when people shouldn't have been doing that. But we're not doing that here on this show today.

So that's why we have Nike commercials on this list. Amanda, if you had to choose between Express Yourself by Madonna or Straight Up by Paula Abdul for number 17 and number 16, what order would you put those two in? In terms of my memory, I put Straight Up by Paula Abdul at the top. And I don't know what that's about. I have such a specific vision, I think think of Paula Abdul doing those dance moves. Maybe I learned some of the

choreography myself. I definitely had a Paula Abdul like workout video that was just like a dance workout video. I guess my mom had it. Don't worry. My childhood wasn't that sad. Don't worry. But then I stole it because I liked Paula Abdul. So I can just see her doing the Paula Abdul and then Paula Abdul shadow doing the moves. I know that Express Yourself is like a more ambitious and probably like broadly iconic video, but I'm just glad that Straight Up is here in this tier. Chris, do you think that

one of these should be eliminated in favor of Don Henley's The End of the Innocents? Do you think End of the Innocents is better than Panic Room? I will say, can I just say one thing in favor of Express Yourself?

Yeah. Is that it's cool to watch him work so much in tandem with someone rather than this person happens to be the subject of the video that I want to make. I think he obviously works in tandem with Kapal Abdul on a choreography level, but he seems to be actively participating in the Madonna image machine and the Madonna celebrity industrial complex in that video in a way that I guess he does in George Michael Freedom 92. But he seems deeply engaged with Madonna. And I think that it makes a really

interesting video. And that video, when it was really popular, was on basically 24 hours a day on MTV. So as soon as I saw the first images, when I saw the link in your rundown, Sean, I was like, oh, I remember every single shot in this video. It's just imprinted on you. I'm going to have them be tied at 16 and 17, just so we can create some fairness. Because on the one hand, I think the Paul Abdul video is imprinted on many people's brains who were alive when that was released and also express yourself i think you could potentially credit for creating an opportunity for madonna to continue to be the most important or one of the three most important pop superstars over the course of the next 10

years um the the body of work that madonna starts with Fincher and then they later make Vogue together, which obviously is iconic in more ways than one. But Express Yourself, I think, is where things start between the two of them and is a movie. I mean, the way that it's shot, the budget on screen, you know, straight up is sound and motion. You know, it's the human body dancing and it's the right song and the right filmmaker. And in some ways, it's the tune up for Mank, right. It's the human body dancing and it's the right song and the right filmmaker. In some ways, it's the tune-up for Mank. It's black and white. It's stripped down and it's the power

of what he can capture with his camera. Express Yourself is the opposite. It's production design, smoke and fog. It spans 20th century celebrity pretty much. It goes from 1930s golden era Hollywood through the 80s. Yeah, it's really epic. So we've got tier D down.

We're going to go to our final tier for this episode, tier C. We have five contenders. I'm just going to put two commercials up top here right away. The first is the Gap Dress Normal commercial, which is beautiful. I don't think it's better than anything else that we're about to discuss here on the show. You've already heard Chris wax rhapsodic

about that gal in jeans. Anything else you want to share there, Chris? No, I think we summed it up. Okay. Another set of commercial campaign that i had no idea was david fincher but that i learned last night that might have been my favorite commercials of that era barring the mars blackman uh jordan commercials were nike's the referee campaign starring dennis hopper which speaking of subversive and speaking of things that seem impossible right now this is an

arch analysis from one of the leading figures of 1960s and 70s american counterculture portraying a referee who is obsessed with and obsessed with celebrating the nfl i love football the NFL. It's obviously one big joke on the NFL. And I can't believe that they got away with this. Not only did they get away with it, but these commercials ran all the time during football games in 1994, which is also right in the height of Speed era, Dennis Hopper.

Yeah. When, you know, the kind of like, come on, man, like that version of Hopper was very present in the culture. CR, you remember these commercials? Of course. Yeah.

It's just like, the thing is that kind of like what Amanda was saying about watching, seeing some of these ads growing up, like these do kind of like what Amanda was saying about watching, um, seeing some of these ads growing up, like these do kind of just blend into the experience of watching two football games for eight hours on a Sunday as it's getting darker earlier on the East coast.

So when you included them, I was like, I guess I didn't really think of them as an act of filmmaking as much as part of a barrage on my, on my young senses back then. They're immensely effective for me. Okay, we've got 13, 12, and 11 to fill. I've got three candidates here. One of them is a historic document that's very important for David Fincher. One of them is a historic document that's very important for Chris Ryan. And one of them is the girl with the dragon tattoo. Amanda, what order do you think these three should go in? I think that Mindhunter should be at 13.

Dragon Tattoo should be 12. And American Cancer Society commercial, the smoking fetus should be at 11. But I can see Chris Ryan's face. Chris, talk about Mindhunter. Just do it. It's your time. I just want to know,

did I miss some fucking quorum where Benjamin Button was critically reappraised do you want to make another trade do you want to trade down further no you're you're you're

saying no I'll trade another movie but we're gonna talk about Benjamin Button I think that it has it's a rich text okay and there's a lot of technological stuff it's a rich text, okay? I'm not saying it's not a rich text. It's also the hottest that Brad Pitt has ever looked on screen, okay?

When they meet in the middle and he's a normal Brad Pitt and you're just like, wow. So I'm not gonna- I am demanding now that we take your audio of you saying it's the hottest Brad Pitt has ever been on screen

and then it's just old man baby face, old man face, baby body Brad Pitt. Better than that than Mindhunter at number two. Whatever it takes, okay? Oh, I'm sorry you don't like American realism. Chris, here are the other options to trade. Seven, I will not be trading you seven. I will not be doing that. Fight Club, I will not trade you

Fight Club. Zodiac, I will not trade you Zodiac. I know what movies you directed. You don't just have to list them all. The Social Network, I will not trade you The Social Network. Gone Girl, I will not trade you Gone Girl. What about The Game? Now, I love The Game. I love The Game too, but that is, that's the candidate now i love the game i love the game too but that is

that's the that's the candidate that's the candidate so you you are you amanda do you think that mind hunter is better than the game because that's the game that we're playing here what's better i suppose technically it's better i think like mind hunter in addition to being a tv show that i just never made it through because, oh my God, it went on forever and ever, is I think like focuses on some of Fincher. It's not what Fincher is good at.

And it kind of highlights some of the things. It's a little self-indulgent. There's not that distance and that coldness and that appraisal that I think is what makes all of his other work so powerful. It's like, it's too much psychology, frankly. And at some point, like I don't have time for it, but I do understand that technically it's quite something.

And I love Jonathan Groff. I think all the performances are very good. Obviously it inspired Take Hunter, which is an important cultural document for the people in this group. So I'm willing to put it above the game, but then we're going to have to, everyone's going to have to come, you know, with some honesty and their, their defense is ready on part two, because I don't have time for this at the number two spot, Chris, I'm telling you that right now. That's okay. I understand that this isn't

like my personal journey. This this is this is about coming to some sort of consensus so I I feel like I've I've I've gotten it higher than I was hoping I thought it was gonna get so let's let's keep it in this tier can I just can I say something let's trade it into the next year I mean what we're gonna say I just wanted to say something about the game okay sure of course I was re-watching it recently and I didn't realize but it's probably in the top five movie kitchens for me of all time which is just a very important thing to isolate I have spent a lot

of time compiling that document and I think Fincher is really wonderful at real estate and interiors in general see also Panic Room beautiful townhouse would love to live in it I would even consider it after the fact you gotta assume you're gonna get quite a deal I believe it's a townstone in panic room the famed brownstone townhouse combo okay well it's great i mean the original details the moldings the staircase you know it seems like

it's got a lot of space um i just i also think that the game has a lot to offer in terms of real estate and i am also a Michael Douglas fan. And there ends my soliloquy. I can't allow Mindhunter over the game, Chris. I'm sorry. Are you being serious? Yeah, I can't allow that. Wow.

The game is a diamond. I just want you to know, I will have my revenge on this pod or the next. Okay, okay. Wait, hold on, hold on. Because we didn't offer up all of the possibilities. There are also three music videos in the top 10 here. Do you want to give that away right now? Are we going to give away what music videos are going to appear on?

I guess it doesn't matter. Well, I think process of elimination, people are probably going to figure it out. It's not three Rick Springfield videos, everybody. That's true well i would say you know there were there let's just talk very quickly about the music videos that we didn't put on the list here that are pretty well known um i mentioned how if you guys talk more about music videos and then we get to the end of this episode but you fuck me out of mindhunter and i just never talk about Mindhunter for the whole four hours we're going to do this podcast, I quit. Chris, you've been talking about Mindhunter nonstop for three and a half years. Just take your foot off the gas, bro. It's going to be okay. Can I ask a procedural question? Yes.

Wait, so we're doing part one today. And then I think sean very cleverly has built in 48 hours or so for all of our resentment and regrets to like simmer before we record part two so is part one completely closed i believe you mean like will there be revisions to the the order i yeah i think that it putting this podcast up tonight getting the mentions coming in full of piss and vinegar on wednesday only makes for good content yeah okay so yeah that's by design for the record yeah of course it's very good i'm already kind of angry but okay do you want to talk about these videos do you want to i'm kind of reluctant to talk too much about them christy turlington lip-syncing is better than mindhunter i will do that on the next episode of this show i will not do that serious have we met

please listen to everything i've ever said in my entire life and that will be the answer come on that video that video is in contention for a top five spot yeah that's a that's a very important video here are some videos we're not talking about that people will probably say, why didn't you talk about this? Cradle of Love

by Billy Idol. Incredibly famous and well-known. Sixth Avenue Heartache by the Wallflowers invented Instagram. Go back and watch that one. That's a good one.

Good song too. Judith by Perfect Circle. Great rock and roll video. Suit and tie by- What are you, a thousand years old? Great rock and roll video? What and tie by a thousand years old great rock and roll video what the fuck is wrong almost as good as rick springfield um suit and tie by by jt and jay-z i forgot that that happened lol not good that one's not good all of that but that was such

a great pop culture moment that was really really funny uh chris you fought hard for the end of the innocence, as I mentioned. And we said that that's not making the list here. If you guys would just please make a donation to the Walden Pond Foundation in my name. Yeah. You also wanted to chat a bit about Steve Winwood, as I recall, Chris, right? Do you remember when that guy was like, we have to go all in on Walden? Don Henley? Yes.

That guy? Yes. I rememberden don henley yes that guy yes i remember when don henley said that um let's not talk about the three music videos because i'm not taking any of those out of the top 10 chris you mine hunter goes to 12. wow i mean it's your show what do you yeah it's your show well we all we all eagerly anticipate your revenge he looks so mad and this is what happens don't you want to talk about it this is rango's revenge let me tell you something yeah david fitcher got credited for however many episodes he did he directed he is the director of mindhunter uh and he made a 20-hour film about how this country broke in half and how evil came out of that fissure and how we have just lost ourselves as a nation,

but also found out who we really are, which is a bunch of fucking perverts and a bunch of deviants. And that the only way we truly understand one another is to truly give into the deviancy inside of us, at least to try to psychologically identify with it. I think that there are parts of it that are flat, and it's a story told over so many hours

that there are lulls. But I think thematically and dramatically to me, it's a different kind of work from him, and it's in a lot of ways up there with Zodiac for me. But I understand that other people don't see it that way. And it's not about me making people agree with me. I'm just offering my takes. What a weak need defense at the end there.

So here's the only thing that I would say. I don't want reconciliation from David Fincher, which is why I'm not particularly interested in Mindhunter but Sean you're gonna have to defend your position because all you do when Mindhunter is on is talk and tweet about Mindhunter this is I know I love Mindhunter you love Mindhunter so you have to justify doing this because I have to listen to you both talking about it so much I do but here's the thing I just would would rather have had... This is anti-television bias. That's what it is. That is what it is. That is exactly what I was going to say, Chris, which is

that I would have just rather had two or three David Fincher movies instead of this TV show, which is a great TV show, but is a TV show. And I just don't... I'm glad you guys feel that way. Me and David Fincher disagree. I'm sorry, but it's stuck at 12, Chris.

Let's talk the American Cancer Society commercial. We don't need to unpack that. We have a fucking American cancer. Like smoking is bad for you. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not the point. That commercial did something that no commercial had ever done before.

And it was for a nonprofit. And it was for a nonprofit. And it was so transgressive that it basically set him on his course as a filmmaker. It got him more opportunity, that thing that got him out of the drudgery of working at ILM as a photographer and able to write his own check, to become his own man, to launch propaganda films, which changed music videos, to become a feature filmmaker who made all these movies. So it's really important. Now we can put it at 13. It doesn't really matter. This is a fake list. No one's really counting, but it is important. And Mindhunter is, you know, the work of a rich guy in his fifties who's super into serial killers. Like if we're talking about importance, I would put the cancer commercial ahead of Mindhunter,

but nevertheless, let's talk very quickly about Dragon Tattoo. I rewatched it last night. This is a deeply, deeply deranged movie. This movie fucking rules. It rules, but it's just so fucked up. He is just like completely weird on main. And like millions of people bought this book and movie. And we're like, sure, so are we.

It is insane that these Stieg Larsson books were as popular as they were and that then this was made like into, I believe, a Swedish version first and then that David Fincher was like, sure, I'll make it. And Daniel Craig and Rooney Mara were like, sure, we'll be in it.

Like, what is wrong with everyone? I'm into it. Pretty great. i love it um i'm very uh i'm very proud of everyone who signed on to make this movie i'm not at all surprised that they didn't make more you know who's great in this movie robin wright is she doing just a little bit of a swedish accent there have you did you do you notice that when you watch it i i didn't notice to be honest it's it's really like it's an inch deep, but a mile wide, which is going for there with the Swedish accent.

She's really capturing something. You know, I didn't read this book. Amanda, I think you did read this book, right? I read all of the books, which again, what's wrong with me? Didn't I have anything better to do with my time? They are not well-written. The politics are very upsetting. Just a tremendous number of open face sandwiches,

which I know I talked about before, but it's like literally imprinted on me that everyone is just eating tartines all of the time in Sweden and then doing crazy sex stuff. It's just so, so weird. It's very damaged and it is him kind of circling the square on a lot of his interests, but it's also, it fits perfectly into his filmography, right? It's very damaged and it is him kind of circling the square on a lot of his interests. But it's also, it fits perfectly into his filmography, right? It's a total procedure movie. It's all about, it's a detective trying to discover what happened in the past. And he really, frankly, never discovers it. Like he's got it all wrong even when he solves it, which speaks to that kind of powerlessness

that we were talking about. He's got it all wrong when he's in a fucking harness wearing a neck brace and Stellan Skarsgård's like, maybe I'm going to cut your appendix out in front of you. And he's like, wait, I got it all wrong. I'm not even going to die for a good reason.

And Enya's playing. Yes, and Enya's playing. I want to make a meme out of that scene where Daniel Craig is all tied up like that and just be like, TFW Sean has to watch Ted Lasso with me but who's who I'm in the next race

yeah okay yeah that's when I need Amanda to come through with the golf club save me from the television the girl with the dragon tattoo is a fantastic movie and if made by any other mainstream American filmmaker we would have said how in the world did this happen but by the time we got it from Fincher, we were like,

of course, at the end of the movie, I was like, of course. I would say on the teaser alone, what a teaser trailer. Yes. The song that you heard at the top of this podcast was Karen O. Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross's cover of Led Zeppelin's Immigrant Song, which is the same song that you can hear in that teaser and at the beginning of the movie, an iconic recording. The title sequence of this movie is also deranged. It's like a tool video, basically, just all leather and melting goo and technology bleeding all over itself. It's an H's a, it's an HR Geiger sculpture come to life. And, um, I just feel like we skipped over it as a society. I feel like this, this guy made a blockbuster with James Bond and was just like rubbing grease all over himself and being like,

you disgusting fuckers. And then we were all like, yup, that was a big blockbuster movie that didn't quite live up to expectations. Let's keep it moving. And that, like, when does that ever happen? When do we get something like this? We'll never get it again. The good news is next year is the 10-year anniversary of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo,

and we will be doing Fincher Week Part 2, hopefully. That kind of does it for this episode, though. We'll be doing Part 2 of this podcast later this week. Once you've had a chance to share your acrimony and distaste with Chris and Amanda, but not me on Twitter. That's, uh, at Chris Ryan, 77 and at AK Dobbins. They both check their mentions religiously. So definitely hit me up.

Chris, Amanda, thank you for participating in part one. I'll see you guys later this week