The Big Picture - The David Fincher Rankings, Part II

Episode Date: September 25, 2020

We're ready to complete our journey into the commercials, music videos, TV shows, and films of David Fincher. But there are some shenanigans in our midst. What's his greatest music video? What will be no. 1? And is 'Mindhunter' making a comeback into the top 10? We feel like saying more, but we don't want to ruin the surprise (0:41). Then, Sean is joined by writer-director Miranda July to talk about her new film, 'Kajillionaire' (1:10:05). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Miranda July Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken Original Lager is made with pure malt and their famous A yeast, which makes Heineken an all-season, all-the-time kind of beer. Me personally, I like to invite my pals Amanda Dobbins and Chris Ryan over to my back porch. We sit out there, crack open a crisp, cold Heineken, and enjoy the fall months here in Los Angeles. So pick up a pack or have it delivered today and drink responsibly. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about David Fincher Part 2. Later in this episode,

I have a conversation with a different visionary. Her name is Miranda July. She has a new film called Kajillionaire opening this weekend. I hope you will stick around for that. And now joining us to close the loop on the Fincher rankings that we began on an episode earlier this week

is The Big Picture's Tyler Durden, a man whose ideas are so powerful. He isn't even real. He's just the projection of my masculine ideal. It's Chris Ryan. Guess what soap is made out of, brother? You tell us. They're made out of my bots. What do we want to address first? Should we address the controversy surrounding part one or should we address the fact that you guys are going to have to come crawling back to television for the rest of 2020? Well, I think we got to talk about some

of, well, these things, they fit together, right? We blasphemed the TV format on the last episode of this show. You know, I like television and I love Mindhunter, but I still feel strongly about where we placed it in the episode earlier this week. And I think karmically, we've been paid back by Disney deciding to move almost all of its films off of the slate to 2021. Amanda, you didn't even really want to talk about this, but here you are talking about it on a podcast. How are you feeling?

No Black Widow this year, Death on the Nile, gone. Everything you wanted, gone. I mean, Death on the Nile is a personal loss. The month of Amanda, which was supposed to be October, just got a little less fun. But when we're framing it in terms of

now I have to come crawling back to TV, no, I don't. I really don't. This is a movie podcast. I'm going to watch what I want. I'm going to feel what I feel about formats. You can't tell me anything. So I just want to-

She's saying this. Her mouth is saying this. Her brain and her eyes are telling me this. That over the course of November once a week Amanda's gonna light some candles she's gonna draw the curtains she's gonna put on her crown and she's gonna watch the crown and she's gonna make that go for because usually Amanda is is she can't control herself she's she when she gets the crown in her hands she watches the season like twice in a day.

But you're going to have to make that last lady. Let me tell you right now, I'm not going to be watching it at all because everyone else has access to it. But me, that's OK. But that's fine. That's whatever it's are you going to want? But it's screeners. It's fine.

I'm just saying we got to bring it back to Disney and the movies. And I was looking forward to Death on the Nile. And I was even looking forward to Black Widow. Number one, because it has actresses I like in it. And number two, because I... Listen, we said with Tenet, it's fun to have big budget movies. And that is a real loss. I'm feeling the absence of that in my watching diet.

I think it... I didn't want to talk about it because it seemed inevitable. Yeah. And I think we all knew that this was coming. And I understand that people are kind of annoyed of hearing us talking about that at great length. I'm sure we'll talk more about what it means for the movie industry. I just kind of want to point out that it's very clear that the only way these decisions get made, which we knew already, was because of finances. And Tenet didn't open broadly enough and with enough money. And so everyone is punting. And it's not public safety.

It's not a responsibility to theater going or how we watch movies or the power of cinema. It's money. And here we are. I think it also indicates pretty clearly that despite some of the reports around how successful Mulan was, clearly not successful enough. Because if it had been more successful, we might have seen at least one or two of these titles announced as being a part of the Disney Plus premium rollout that that movie had, and none of them have it. And so what does that mean? That means Disney needs to make more money by getting movies into movie theaters, but they can only do so when it's safe to get into movie theaters. I mean, this is kind of a bet. A bunch of these movies are moving

several months into the future, including West Side Story, which was tabbed to be one of the biggest Oscar contenders of 2020, is now moving a full year to December 2021. Steven Spielberg is arguably the most powerful person in Hollywood. If he is a part of that decision-making, that gives you a sense of how people really feel about the direction that things are moving. And they're not great. Chris, I know Shang-Chi was your most anticipated movie of 2021. How are you feeling about it moving two months?

Well, the Disney part of this is interesting to me because Disney is obviously a subscription service. So they must be thinking to themselves, we're not going to get X number of extra subscribers to this service by offering any of these movies on our service. I'm curious to see what does non-Disney-wise move to demand. I don't know what Antebellum did this week in terms of, in terms of it's at home watching and in terms of what, what is pulling in from on demand. But yeah,

for the, for the companies that own their own streaming services that are subscription based that have got already a huge base of, of subscribers. I do think it's kind of like, let's just wait till the theaters open up again. It's so hard to say. I mean,

that specific thing, and I'm sure God, this will be a talking point for us for the next five years. But, you know, Amanda and I had the chance to see the trial of the chicago seven last night um which i'm excited to talk about uh at great length in the future on this show uh sorkin sorkin baby he did he does it again um but that is for me though okay this is a real it's a real wikipedia

situation just avoid googling abby hoffman um but we saw that, and that was a movie that was supposed to come out in theaters courtesy of Paramount. Paramount ostensibly has a streaming service at its disposal in CBS All Access. So if there was a push internally at Viacom to get that movie onto their streaming service, they could have done that. Instead, they sold it for more than $50 million to Netflix. And now Netflix has it in its arsenal of Oscar films in 2020. So how these companies make their decisions about what should and shouldn't go to

their streaming services, I think is going to be very specific to each corporation and where they stand. Disney is fortunate in that the thing that I'm most excited to watch this fall now, now that all of these movies have moved off, is the Mandalorian. I mean, that's really, that's what's keeping someone like me on Disney plus and, you know, and maybe WandaVision too, which, you know, they previewed. And now, I mean, that is going to be, that's our, our IV drip for the MCU now for what seems like at least the next, I don't know, six, seven, eight months. And that's just a fascinating proposition. Can I sound two notes of uninformed optimism? Sure.

Okay. One is if you drive around Los Angeles, if you talk to people who are in this industry, they're making stuff again. I mean, it does seem like just today I drove past a set on the side of Los Angeles. And the other thing I would mention is this pretty much is in line with some of the things you're hearing from people like Adam Silver, who runs the NBA, about when they think that they'll be able to mount another season and why they are waiting possibly until, you know, spring next year, because they do want people back in the stadium. So hopefully that means that, you know, after what will, I'm sure, be a really difficult winter for a lot of people, we'll have something to look forward to.

It's a huge win for the watch. It's a big loss for the big picture. Amanda, how are you feeling about our 12 part one division pod? You excited about that? I was honestly just thinking about how I can cancel Disney Plus now, which, and I'm probably like the only person in America who's just like, oh, well, Death on the Nile is no longer going to be available on PVOD so I can cancel my seven bucks a month to Disney Plus. Like, I understand that's a singular thing, but it is interesting in terms of thinking

about what's available and what you need to, you know, keeping people on a service versus trying to incentivize people to sign up for a service. And that, WandaVision, youision, I didn't watch the trailer. I think I heard people say it looked cute. I probably won't watch it, but I support them and support people who do.

If you write a why I'm leaving New York essay, but why I'm leaving Disney+, I'll buy you lunch. If you don't write that letter, I suspect somebody out there in the cr bot farm will do that so now it's time for us to address the biggest scandal of 2020 thus far and it's been a scandalous year but this is a shocking series of events now we tempted the fates earlier this week on the show by calling out the cr heads i think you dubbed them the cr heads many years ago chris and they've been following you ever since your own personal tea party and um a new twitter account appeared you shared it with us curious that you shared it with us as opposed to

amanda or i discovering it and that that twitter account uh identifies itself as chris ryan bot and the handle is at CRHeadsUnite and the avatar for said account is a photo of a digital Halsey at a Lakers game during this bubble period. And the bio here says MVP

of at the big pick at ringer slash king of TV at the watch pod. Now Chris, you and I have been close for many years. And I know a lot about you. And you are not above launching an anonymous

account to express your creativity and perhaps valorize yourself from afar. Well, no. Wait a second. Those are two different accusations that I want to answer separately. Am I above launching a fake Twitter account? No. Would I do

so to valorize myself? You do know me that well. You know I wouldn't do that. You know I would not be like, another great week of pods from CR. Let's go through some of the hits. Would you say you're above paying

a 20-year-old undergrad to launch an account that would valorize your work? We live in a time of revolution. Why is it so hard to believe that an idea catches fire out there? I don't have to pay anybody to fucking support me. This information is free. This gets beamed out to everybody, man. You can't...

I can't control what happens once it leaves my mouth, you know? I disagree with all of this, but it's quite funny. Like this is, okay. You guys, you guys also, let's, let's, I'm turning the tables. I'm going Daniel Caffey on you. You guys colluded.

You guys colluded about Mindhunter because I thought about this. I thought about this. I played it back in my head. No, okay? I will not allow you to accuse me, Amanda Dobbins, who shows up every week and is like, Chris, help me help you. Every week in front of everyone, I'm just like, what can you and I do together to bring

down big Sean? This Sean, not the other one. And I just like, no, you can't accuse me of that. Mindhunter, it happened. I tried to work out a deal with you. This is what I will say. You two seemed incredibly united in a very similar take, which was about where Mindhunter should be.

It seemed like you guys were like, there's no way Mindhunter can break into the top two tiers. Christopher, we've met. You know how I feel about this television show. Here's the thing. As usual, my plan is going swimmingly, which is that I have sowed chaos. It is I who started at Sierra Head tonight.

No, I'm just kidding. I didn't start it. Chris, I'm glad that you have. If it was Amanda, it would have just been, like, that would have been, like, the greatest trick the devil ever played. If Amanda is behind CR Heads Unite. Yeah.

You're going to be like Cruz in Fallout, just ripping off the Wolf Blitzer mask to reveal. Yeah. So, okay. Obviously, these accounts have formed to celebrate Chris's extremely bad takes whenever he comes on this show um notable that they would cite the big pick in the bio ahead of the watch the show you've been hosting for many years what do you think that's about chris i mean it's probably

just a huge cultural lover you know and and i think that like i play different roles on different shows you know like here i think i am probably like it, the cuffs are off me, man. You know what I mean? I don't have to host. I don't have to move things along. I can disrupt things. I can go off on tangents. It's up to you to keep me hemmed in. Yeah, you have kind of like a Lindsey Graham energy, I would say. You might say one thing one day and then another thing another day. I'm going to put both of you in timeout very soon, okay? Okay. Let's go back to Fincher because that's the only thing that can get us back in an organized, orderly fashion. No, you can't. By the way, spoiler alert,

but continue. I have a feeling that this will be a much more smooth ride for the three of us. I don't. You don't? No. Are you kidding? Number one, I have a plan. Again, Chris Ryan, you come on this podcast and you underestimate me and you don't want to work with me. Number one, I have a plan. Again, Chris Ryan, you come on this podcast and you underestimate me and you don't want to work with me. Number two, no. Like, has anything ever gone smoothly when the three of us have to rank cultural artifacts in order? No.

I thought you and I agree all the time. Listen, we're just going to have to work together on this. Okay, that's all. Just keep that in your head. Okay. In the next 20 to 30 minutes. You know, we're doing a 2012 movie draft on Monday together. So people need to get used to this energy.

Yeah. Yeah. So I would say under normal circumstances, I'm somewhat fearful of you guys uniting. But when it comes to Fincher, Chris and I have been aligned for a long time. That's the Venn diagram of Chris and I, you know, he's an optimistic good guy. I'm a black hearted asshole. But somewhere in between David Fincher, we're going to talk about the top 10 David Fincher things. There's only 10 things left based on what we've picked. Before we do that, though, you know, there's a piece on the

ringer today by Alan Siegel about all of the unmade David Fincher projects. And perhaps more than anybody of his generation, he gets associated with big name projects and then doesn't necessarily always follow through on them. I wanted to just talk about a couple of them and maybe figure out which one you guys specifically would have wanted to see the most out of this list. We don't have to run through every single film and I would encourage people to read Alan's piece. But what is it about him you think that gets him so close to the flame before pulling out of a project, Amanda? High standards. And also, it's interesting, reading that great Alan Segal piece. It's so funny how that, and we know this to be true, we just talked about how money dictates everything, but the industry is set up in a way where it's like never the person with talent and ideas making any of the calls. And that

David Fincher, who is very demanding, which I respect a hundred percent and really is only going to do things if he does it his way. And thus has to quit a lot of things because the circumstances in a creative project aren't lining up with his vision, which by the way, in any creative project, there is a ton of development and a ton of people just being like, well, what about this? He is seen as an anomaly and he is an anomaly because he's one of the only people who's just like, nah, no thanks. I'm going to go do my other thing. To me, I feel like more talented artists should have the ability to be like, no, I will do things the way that I want to. In my world, those would be the decision makers, at least more of the time.

But we live in the world of money. Chris, what about you? What do you think is driving the way that Fincher makes his decisions? Well, it's similar to what Amanda's saying about his desire for creative control mixed with an interest in still participating in mainstream popular culture. So I mean, he's associated with tentpole style blockbusters, like, for instance, 20,000 leagues under the sea was something that he had been associated with for a long time that he was going to make it with a variety of different actors. I think Brad Pitt was like the main person. And that would have been a huge Disney movie. You know, that would have been like a giant effort on Disney's part.

That's a theme park ride right there. So he's more, I think when it comes to stuff like that, the kinds of movies he gets associated with are the kinds of movies people are like, yeah, but I have a couple of notes. Like, could we do something like this so that we could make sure the park ride isn't too scary or something like that? And David Fincher's like, no, I'm going to make it fucking terrifying. Fuck off. Yeah, he's expressed a very serious contempt over the years for people who have ideas but don't make anything. You know, he just doesn't really like that kind of a person.

You know, even though I have some shades of executive in my in my professional life, I also have a little bit of contempt for that approach. However, I think Amanda and I have talked a lot on this show about a lot of movies over time that probably could have used some of that executive guardrail. And there's a complexity to that issue. When you're David Fincher and you're perfect, you don't need those people. But when you're less talented, you might need those people. So it's not so black and white like the artist is always right here either, I don't think. Yeah. I just want to say in the sentence of in my world, like talented people would be able to call the shots more often. Talented is carrying a lot of weight in that sentence. And like it better meet my definition of talented as

well. It's like David Fincher can do it. Most people need notes. Notes are usually good unless you're a genius. Let's talk about a couple of the projects here. So there were a few that were new to me that I hadn't heard about before as I was doing some research here. The one that really jumped out, which was a very early project, is called The Sky is Falling. And the story is two priests who discover firm proof that God doesn't exist and go on a drug-addled killing spree and are pursued by a dying hitman who doesn't want the evidence to get out. That's like a 90s movie game of Hangman. Yeah, welcome to my college dorm room. Seriously.

It almost feels like a fake Fincher onion story. Dude, what if there were priests and they're just fucking killing people, man? Nobody's ever thought of that. But the thing is, when he takes an obvious idea, I want to do a movie about the Zodiac Killer. It sounds like it could be really lame or predictable or corny and he's able to elevate

it and i think that that's true of a lot of things on this list um there were a few others that jumped out i had forgotten that he was seriously considered by madonna to direct truth or dare which was originally known as in bed with madonna there there are a couple of projects on this list one is one that was sean i don't know if you remember this, but the source of one of our rare spats, which was World War Z Part 2. Oh, yeah, yeah. Which I was like, oh, fuck yeah.

Like, Fincher, make World War Z 2. And you were like, no, he should be making real cinema. And I was like... And on that day, you launched at CRH tonight. But the one that I have found that the three of us, I think in the spirit of consensus, what all three of us would love to see would have been Seared, which was going to be his adaptation of Anthony Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential,

which eventually was sort of shadow made by Bradley Cooper as burnt. But David Fincher in the kitchen has to fucking happen. I agree with this, except then it would mean that we wouldn't have burnt, which is a cultural artifact that we all are going to need to revisit at some point.

One of the great plane movies. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think his version of burnt, which was supposed to be called seared, I think would have been wonderful. And, you know, the king of the insert shot who likes to shoot knives more than David Fincher?

Imagine the knife work we'd see on screen there. It would be incredible. I think a lot of these, though, are very well-known movies that eventually did get made that he was either hired for or it was suggested he should have been hired for and he never got the chance to participate in or decided he didn't want to participate in.

We mentioned Spider-Man earlier this week on the show. I had forgotten that Mission Impossible 3 was on the board before J.J. Abrams came along. And man, David Fincher's Mission Impossible 3, the dark cynic attacks Ethan Hunt, I think would be fascinating. Cleopatra, I think, is probably the most famous, almost, among these. Amanda, which of these jumped out to you as something you would have liked to have seen? I also would like to see the Mission Impossible 3. Though, you know, the 3 at the end makes me nervous.

I don't really think that he could ever do a 3 of anything. And then you have here at the end, and this one is kind of famous, the Strangers on a Train update, I guess, which Fincher definitely, like every other filmmaker, owes a lot to Hitchcock. And it's this strain of Hitchcock that I'm interested in and also the strain of Fincher that I'm interested in. And also, I mean, can you imagine how screwed up it would be? It would be like incredibly screwed up, but in the way that I would be very excited for. Yeah, that was originally pitched as a Gillian Flynn collaboration in the aftermath of Gone Girl, which would have been wonderful and delightful. And speaking of Gillian Flynn, there's a, you know, they were also tapped to work on a TV show together called Utopia, which ironically is now coming out, I think in a couple of weeks, right? Chris, when does Utopia arrive?

This Friday. This Friday. So, you know, that's an adaptation of a British TV series that Gillian Flynn did go on to adapt and work on that is coming to Amazon. And Fincher was supposed to be a part of that. He was also supposed to be a part of a show called Videos and Crazy, I think, which was, I think, about the 80s music video scene

and MTV and music video directors, which, of course, he knows quite well as the co-founder of Propaganda. that never happened. That would have been cool. Um, red Sparrow, the girl who played with fire. We never saw the second dragon tattoo movie, Steve jobs. Yeah. I actually am quite fond of the Danny Boyle, Steve jobs. I think it's a bit underrated at this point. Heads that we are, but, um, I don't know what else. I learned today that The Dirt, the Motley Crue biography was originally going to be a Fincher project. I think that would have been slightly different than the version we saw on Netflix, which I would say is not successful

at all. I don't know if you guys ever saw that. No, I mean, some of these unmade projects wind up popping up in other things that he's done. He had been linked to this adaptation of Torso, which is a graphic novel by Brian Michael Bendis about Elliot Ness investigating, I think, the first American serial killer, if I remember the logline correctly. And I think a lot of that stuff wound up popping up in Mindhunter. The one that I think made the most sense that never happened, and I lament it, is The Black Black Dahlia which is an adaptation of James Elroy's book about the very famous Los Angeles murder it was eventually adapted in probably his worst movie by Brian De Palma just a very stiff movie that you'd think De Palma would be great at

and obviously De Palma is an influence on Fincher but Fincher's version of that and you can see a lot of what he would have done there not just in Mind Mindhunter, but in Zodiac. But that would have been interesting. Who was the other guy in Black Dahlia who was heartening it and who? The Black Dahlia had one of your guys, Chris. Aaron Eckhart. Oh, yeah. That's right.

Lantern Jaw. Yeah. Aaron Eckhart, Scarlett Johansson, Hilary Swank, and Mia Kirshner. Yeah. Mia Kirshner. You don't hear that name very often. Yeah. She was the titular You don't hear that name very often. Yeah.

She was the titular Dahlia, as I recall. That's her on the poster. Okay. So those are the... Any other Fincher projects you would have liked to have seen? Anything you want to see him do in the future?

Well, I was just going to ask. You have The Force Awakens on this list of like unmade possible... Is that real? Is that the same Force Awakens that I'm thinking of? Reportedly, he was approached by Kathleen Kennedy to make a Star Wars movie. And of course, he worked for ILM during the production of the original trilogy. And I think the quote that he shared was that he was more of an Empire Strikes Back kind of guy. And if he was

not able to make an Empire Strikes Back kind of a movie, then he wasn't going to be able to participate. CR, you want the Fincher Star Wars movie or you think that that doesn't make sense? I think he would make it look amazing. I don't think that they would ever in a million years let him make it. You know, his best bet would be to do something like a spinoff on Disney Plus. But even then, I can't imagine like him directing Rogue One. The Rogue One spinoff would be pretty cool, but that ain't going to happen.

Don't hold your breath. Boba Fett show, Chris? Boba Fett? Isn't that just going to be The Mandalorian? Eventually? Okay, it's almost time to rank our top tens, but first, let's hear a word from our sponsor. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken would like to remind you that it's time for seasonal beers again.

That's right. If you thought a cold crisp summer Heineken was something, just wait until you taste the Heineken fall lineup. Is it a new product? No, just the same great tasting lager. That's perfect for any season as fall hits here at my house. I'm getting ready to invite my pals,

Chris Ryan and Amanda Dobbins over for a cold, crisp Heineken on our back porch. Heineken Original Lager is made with pure malt and their famous A yeast, which makes Heineken an all-season, all-the-time kind of beer. So pick up a pack or get it delivered, whatever your style, and drink responsibly. Okay, we are back. We are ranking the top 10 David Fincher things. We've got two tiers left. There was some controversy about where certain things fell in the tiers last time around. I'm just for the sake of conversation going to share the 10 things and then we can hash it out.

I don't really know how I'm going to manage this conversation, but we're going to do our best. The 10 things for the top 10 are as follows. The Janie's Got a Gun video by Aerosmith. This is horseshit. The Vogue video by Madonna. The Freedom 90 video by George Michael. And then in chronological order, Seven, The Game, Fight Club, Zodiac, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, The Social Network, and Gone Girl. So, number 10. I assume that, Chris, you're going to say we do three music videos at 10, 9, and 8. No, that's not fun. Right?

I don't know, Amanda. What do you think? I agree that it's really boring and bad list making to do the three videos at the top. So, I would like to start a point of order to reopen the rankings. And I will, Chris, if you'll support me in this, I'll bring Mindhunter up if we can put the game back down at number 12. It was an offer that was on the last podcast and you seemed open to it. And I was open to it as well.

Reaching across the aisle. And so, and I would like to provide, in addition to annoying Sean, which is one of like my life's goals and it's something I strive every day to do. I have an actual justification for this. Let's hear it. I finished re-watching the game. And like, I have to be honest,

like the game's kind of annoying. And specifically the game in the game is pretty annoying. Like they're just fucking with him. And the fact that he doesn't realize that much quicker, it's just, they're just pests. I don't really care for it. It's like, oh, you put in some like, you know, neon or black lights or whatever. And like, like also Michael Douglas figure it out sooner. Obviously this woman is in on the game.

What's wrong with you? I, I don't know. It's good, figure it out sooner. Obviously, this woman is in on the game. What's wrong with you? I don't know. It's good, but it's not amazing. So, bipartisanship fucking lives. No, no, no, no, no, no. Because, no, no, no. This is Susan Collins. The Susan Collins of the big picture.

This is exactly what we need to be doing in this country. Because she is offering me an olive branch. And I'll tell you what. I i if i were writing this bill i would be saying benjamin button trading with with no but i'm not gonna do that with that's okay and also let me just say right now don't put me and susan collins in the same sentence ever we can make our political jokes jokes but that one absolutely not okay i'm not i'm not with that so i know thank you very much no i but i i second your your amendment and i would also yield my time to the to the great senator from georgia oh man there's so many comparisons i could make to the crooks in the federal government. I won't do that anymore.

I'll keep this above board. This is about movies. We're talking about the work of David Fincher. The answer is no. We're not moving the game back. This is how it gets done. She offers a bill. What else am I getting?

What else am I getting? If you name a dam after my uncle and then we go bang. That's how shit gets done in this country. I'll vote for your bill if you name a dam after my uncle. And then we go, bang. That's how shit gets done in this country. You have to make an offer to me. That is what has to happen here. We have the majority here.

This is not a democracy, Chris. There's a ruling power. I built the game. If I build the game, I own the constitution. Well, your game is really boring also. Okay. You're a pest. This is, I don't really feel like my life is threatened. I think this is kind of monotonous. That's fine. If you're not going to do it, then the game has to be a 10 with an asterisk that Chris and I object. Dissented. Yeah. So you, Amanda, you who has not completed the television

show, Mindhunter wants Mindhunter to go ahead of the game. I don't think that that's fair. That feels like fucking shenanigans to me. I've still seen more Mindhunter wants Mindhunter to go ahead of the game. I don't think that that's fair. That feels like fucking shenanigans to me. I've still seen more Mindhunter than I've seen the game because it's endless, okay? So at least I can appreciate like the beautiful shots. And once again,

huge fan of Jonathan Groff. Can't say enough good things about him. So, you know, that's where I am. Chris, you believe that that's just? Do you believe that what is being suggested here is just? I don't care if she's seen the fucking trailer on YouTube I'm getting what I want I'm moving Mindhunter up man the podcast is early I might get this into the top five before we're done

uh okay I will I will make the trade I will make you I will I will let you I will let you move where did we land up was it 13 where Mindhunter landed? I thought it was 12. Mindhunter was 12. So you want to move the game to number 12 and you want to move Mindhunter to number 10. That was what I proposed, yes. You guys know what you just did?

You just let the bots win. That's not true because now John Doe has the upper hand and I am in control of the rest of this game because that's the only way in which I'll allow this to happen. Do you need us for this podcast then? I don't agree to that. I do not grant you total control. Well, then you need to find another offer. You need to make a better offer.

I don't really care. Listen, I was being imaginative. I was thinking outside of the game. I was also providing great content. I'm going to sleep at night either way. So you have overplayed your hand, both of you. You made this offer at number 10.

You make this offer at number five. I didn't overplay my hand because you're so mad. And you're not also flaring. And that's all I want. This, now I've jumped, Mindhunter has now jumped the game and dragon tattoo right yes you feel good about that I will I will give a I I I am I am I do feel good about

this you run the risk Chris of actually offending the sensibilities of your own CR heads by getting Mindhunter ahead of too many good films. Is that what you want? We'll see. We'll see. I think it's another problem. I think I'm governing with a mandate here. Is this a ploy? Is this a ploy from

Big the Watch to valorize the power of television over films? Is that what you're doing? Many people are saying. I don't think it is because we're about to put three music videos

including Genie's Got a Gun ahead of Mindhunter an arrow video in the top 10 but what are we talking about genie's got a gun for a second i understand that someone dies at the end of it and some shady things some bad things are happening. But like what is happening in that music video? You're literally asking what did her daddy do? Yes. I mean, I know. I understand what's implied.

But the plot is Janie's got a gun. The music video is very hard to follow. Also, the 80s were extremely weird. This is one of these generational things where I guess that meant a lot to you guys and I was just like, what have I inherited? You know, again, these are classic tactics from

a party with false morals attempting to shift the blame, shift attention onto a non-offending party like Janie's Got a Gun, a wonderful music video that obviously set the stage for the kinds of films that David Fincher was going to excel at. And you're trying to take

that music video down a peg in an effort to collude to disrupt the future of this show. Amanda, I want you to seriously consider what you're participating in here. I'm not colluding. My light is shining. I have been a pain in your side

for the entire run of this show. I pledge to continue doing just that and also asking basic questions like what happened in this filmed thing that you just made me watch? Because as we learned on the Tenet episode, I don't always know. It's not about what happened.

It's about how it happened and it happened beautifully. And that is the thing about David. That's such an annoying nerd shot answer. Okay. Sometimes what happened also matters. We believe in plot on this show. I am pursuing justice and truth

in the face of the democratic republic. And you guys are what's wrong with our society. But here's what I'll do. This is how gracious I am. The game goes to 12. Janie's got a Gun goes to 10. Mindhunter goes to 9. That's where we are

and we'll go from there. Okay? Wow. Chris, look at that. Now, Chris, what you are is in debt to me. So when we get down to the end here, I need you to have my back.

And if you don't, I will call Jack dorsey and have you and your whole team deleted from twitter okay jack's on speed dial okay okay all right jack please suspend this account the thing is sean is that you and i already fucking agree on david fincher so you're not I'm not giving anything up. So let's find out. Let's go. Okay.

So we're in. So Janie's got a gun, 10. Mine Hunter, 9. Number 8, I'm saying Benjamin Button. I made it that way. So that perhaps the boys that we lost in the war might stand and come home again. And I think that's actually a little high for Benjamin Button, personally, having just revisited it and not really connecting to it.

Only Fincher movie I've ever watched just once. But I know that this is a big one for Amanda. You mentioned Brad Pitt's hotness in this film. What else about this movie do you like? I think that it is i mean listen brad pitt his baby looks so weird that whole thing is so weird but it also by 20 minutes in you're just kind of like well now i'm watching like a tiny like wizened baby man like there is a technological achievement of it it also looks beautiful And I like that he's trying something different. And I also kind of think Benjamin Buttman is a really great litmus test within Fincher heads of

like the people who put it at the very bottom of the rankings and are throwing it out and are just kind of like, no man, it's fight club only as a, are not curious enough in my opinion. So I think it's more in terms of signaling that the the cinematic world is wider so you guys can put it at eight if you want if you want and i think you're slightly small-minded but um that's fine that's a just a a brisk and dangerous accusation in the face of all the action that just happened previously on this podcast and every podcast we've done before it um i i like benjamin but i think you i don't think you can watch benjamin button and not at least be impressed by it it is definitely the most painterly and formalist david fincher movie

and one underrated aspect of that movie is that um in many ways he gave maher shalali and taraji p henson their biggest roles and really i mean maher shalali in particular was a TV actor who I think not many people had heard of. And revisiting the movie, I was like, oh yeah, this is definitely the first time that I saw this guy who now has two Oscars. And that's been true of Fincher over the years is if he doesn't necessarily discover actors, he finds ways to put them in incredible positions to succeed.

He's obviously great with movie stars. And I think he shoots people so luminously. Cate Blanchett in this movie just looks amazing. And also again, she's a, she's a dance teacher, right? And there's like the movement of all of that.

It's about bodies in like a very different way, but a lot of the venture themes and interests, but you know, without severed heads. The other thing I thought of when i was watching it was it's um i wonder if christopher nolan has a big admiration for this movie because that opening sequence particularly with the clock maker talking about why he made the clock to run backwards and then though there's a battle sequence that happens in reverse in the film and it's pure

tenet i mean it's it's it's exactly what we're seeing in Tenet. And once again, kind of ahead of the curve in this otherwise kind of painterly traditionalist film. I like Benjamin Button. I've, I've watched him more times than you have Chris, but it, it's just, um, it's, I just think it's a little dull, honestly. Yeah. I, I, like I said, I mean, I saw it in the theater. I remember really liking it. I'm going to sound like a moron, but I really liked the battle sequence. And I loved some of the stuff when Brad Pitt and Cate Blanchett

were at the appropriate ages and were hanging out. But the old baby, young old man stuff just really didn't do much for me. As an old baby, I speak from experience. I want to suggest that we

have Freedom 90 and Vogue tie at number six so that we can talk about them paired because they're, I think, two of the 25 most important music videos ever made. They were released within months. It might be apex mountain for modeling freedom 90.

Yes. For beautiful humans. And you know, like we were just saying about Cape Lanchette, nobody is better at shooting beautiful humans than David Fincher. And what these music videos say to me, and I'm sure some people are listening to this and you're like, how could you possibly put a music video ahead of mindhunter? That's fine. Have some fun. We're listening to a podcast. Everybody fucking relax. The reason I think they're important, though, is because they're all about iconography, right? And building up and destroying iconography. And I think that that's a big part of what he's trying to do with movies as well. He's trying to identify whether it's masculinity or consumerism or our

life on the internet or even the idea of wealth and how wealthy people get bored and the things that they need to do to entertain themselves. He wants to kind of burn those things to ash in the same way that he burns George Michael's leather jacket and explodes the jukebox and destroys a guitar, kind of tearing down in tandem with George Michael, the image that he built in the Faith video a few years earlier. Likewise with Madonna. I mean, Madonna, nobody is better at kind of molting a version of herself and moving on to a new era than Madonna.

And the way that she does that really is by enlisting collaborators who can help her visualize the new phase. And sometimes that comes in the form of choreographers or fashion designers or, you know, stage designers for her shows. But most of the time, it's with photographers and filmmakers. That's how Madonna evolves. And she latched on to Fincher in a big way. And I think she's made more videos with him than with anybody else. And Vogue is, I mean, you know, in many ways, obviously borrowed from a culture that was not Madonna's culture or David Fincher's culture. And that's been litigated over time, over the years. But I think without the Vogue video, we wouldn't have the TV show Pose.

You know, we wouldn't have the kind of like the ascendant part of that history in the mainstream. And so that's kind of my ode to those two videos, which I think are really important. What do you guys think about them? I just think it's fun to watch him be free of story. I mean, to Amanda's point, I don't think he worries too much about narrative

when it's music videos. So it's pure image making. And within those images, you just see his depth of perception when it comes to texture and movement and light and contrast. And it's just like that slow motion shot of that leather jacket lighting on fire. You could watch these music videos as silent films and almost get the same sensations that you do when you have the music playing. And these are two fucking really good songs. Yeah, I mean, I would just say for me,

at least these two music videos kind of create the visual language of the 90s, like as an era in terms of what I learned about what is cool and what music videos should look like and what images look like. I mean, literally, you know, this is my MTV era

because I was a bit later to it. And also I just, the supermodels of the 90s meant a lot to me. I got caught up in that somehow. And as much as Freedom 90 is tearing down all the iconography of the George Michael part one or part whatever, it's definitely also making or furthering the icons of those supermodels, which I just followed a lot for better and worse. Yeah. And just with a very simple decision to have those supermodels be the artists in the video, you know, be the lip-syncing the song and, you know, the idea of removing George Michael from

that video. It seems obvious now, it's been 30 years since that happened, but at the time, fascinating and radical. And even just the way the video starts where you see mouths moving and you see Linda Evangelista, who's just luminescent in that video. But when that voice starts singing, you see that mouth and you assume it's George Michael and it's not. It's a male model. And then we see Cindy Crawford and Naomi Campbell and Christy Turlington and all of these famed icons. We don't really have models like that now, Amanda. I know you talk about the Karlie Klosses of the world on Jam Sessions sometimes, but we don't really have that super duper model anymore. No, I mean, this started at the Peter Lindbergh photo of these women that sort of inspired this music video concept is kind of pointed to as the moment

when all of these models started. But modeling took on a lot of different iterations. And then at some point, you wanted it to be a celebrity who was selling your thing because of their recognition. And now it's a whole thing. No one really cares about the history of modeling, but it was a fun moment. And because they were models, it was image focused, which can have its limitations, but it was about this image as art and a body as art. Okay. We're moving to T.R.A. We have five movies, as is only just on a movie podcast, despite Chris's machinations and Amanda's utter betrayal.

Here are the five movies. Seven, Fight Club, Zodiac, The Social Network, and Gone Girl. I'll be honest. I know what I want my number one to be, and I don't know the rest. I don't even know what order the rest of these movies should come in. So I want to give you guys the opportunity to make your pitch for your top five, and then maybe we can negotiate from there. Are we working back from one, or are we working up to one? Let's work up to one. Let's start at five. Is there an obvious five here for you, Bull?

There is for me personally, but I know you're not going to agree with it. And I'm willing to make compromises up top, but I'm not willing to compromise on my vision for number one. So I think that unkind things will be said at number one. Chris, what about you? So this is really interesting. When you're playing a game like this, you're also trying to guess what the other person is thinking thinking and it's not like you're playing a game to win because

this isn't the same thing as the movie draft where we'll have like our personal thing valued over the other it'll be a big picture thing i know i probably underrate gone girl compared to the two of you but i think what i'll do here at number five is in the interest of collaboration is put seven here that would be my number five as well it it won't surprise anybody um and not because it's not good it's yeah no none of these movies are bad the rest of these all the rest of these are fucking great but i think at some point it's like, I can't live with seven in my life for very long. That's just... I would just say that I probably,

on a personal, my Patreon, I would probably put Gone Girl here, but I think seven, I'm fine with seven being five. What is the address of your Patreon, just for the CRM? It's bobbywagner.patreon.com so you want you guys are saying

seven how did this podcast get to this place man I feel terrible what do you want to do you do this every single time where you act

aggrieved because it's raining outside like you tell me what the weather is supposed to be like what should be at five

you don't know I. What should be at five? Tevay is. Come through. You don't know. I think it should be Fight Club. Why do guys like you and I know what a Tevay is? Is this essential to our survival? In the hunter-gatherer sense of the word? No.

What are we then? Consumers. Right. We are consumers. We are byproducts of a lifestyle obsession. Murder, crime, poverty, these things don't concern me. What concerns me

are celebrity magazines, television with 500 channels, some guy's name on my underwear. Oh, interesting. I mean, that's fine with me, but I really thought we were going to have a slugfest about that.

Well, let me just make my case. And I agree with what you guys are saying, which is that there are no bad films here that this top five is. I think you can make the case that this is toe-to-toe with any top five of any living filmmaker, really. I mean, it's up there with even Francis Ford Coppola's top five. You know what I mean? It's a very, very strong group of movies

that are deeper than they seem, despite him being this avatar for a kind of mainstream movie going. The thing with Fight Club is, extraordinary as it is, and as much as it definitely just took my breath away as a kid when I first saw it, I think I was, I want to say I was a senior in high school

when this movie came out. So that was an effective time to see a movie like this. Right when I was getting deep into Howard Zinn, you know, when I had my Mother Jones subscription, when I was figuring out how I really didn't like the world and how the world was organized. As I revisit it as I get older, it's not that I think it's any less true or any less powerful or any less amazingly made, but it's just a polemic. It's not really a movie. And it doesn't really work that well to me as a movie because once the jig is up, you're just looking at the choices, the movie making choices, and you're not as invested

in the story. And you know, like, is that a huge criticism of the movie? No, I could rewatch this movie every day, but I don't think that I think it's a little bit too obsessed with its decision making and not necessarily obsessed with its story. So that leads me to believe it's not as powerful. I'm willing to hear Gone Girl at five too, personally, Chris, because I think that that would be four for me. And I think that they're kind of neck and neck in that respect. And Gone Girl kind of goes in the other direction where I feel like Gone Girl is a little bit too obsessed with the story and the way that he tells the story. Well, I actually think

Gone Girl and Fight Club are the two are partner films because I think that they're the two films that have been most tussled over in terms of their meaning and in terms of how you're supposed to watch it. And I bet each one of us probably has a different specifically a different read on Gone

Girl and a different read on Fight Club if you were like, okay, tell me what you think of this movie and what this movie makes you think about. So I think that they are paired in that sense. I think that Gone Girl just kind of continues to grow in my estimation as the years go on,

whereas Fight Club now is a little bit more of a museum piece for me. That being said, I disagree with you about Fight Club as a movie. I don't think it's a gimmick. I think it is actually an amazing black comedy. Pretty thrilling action

movie in certain places and features two of my favorite performances in all of the Fincher filmography and Pitt and Norton. I would also throw Helena Bonham Carter incredible in that movie. And fucking Meatloaf. I would also throw Helena Bonham Carter. Yes. Incredible in that movie. She's amazing in that movie. And fucking Meatloaf.

I mean, who, I mean. And Jared Leto's face. Amanda, what do you, what do you think about, well, what do you think about Fight Club? Did you rewatch it for this conversation?

I didn't, and I'm sure that that will upset people. I assumed that you were going to put it much higher. Like, I honestly thought that there was going to put it much higher like I honestly thought that there was going to be a number one for a fight club because I I understand that it was a real like a turning point of sorts in Fincher's career and certainly it was part of our whole 1999

package I think you put it like you strong-armed it into the best movie of 1999 slot in terms of what it reflects of that moment in movie making and also in you know your generation of young men sean fantasy congratulations um and i also listen it it stars brad pitt who i love and i love helena bottom carter and it's certainly memorable i find it gimmicky and like a little self-aware and it's a little like look at us we're making a cool movie. You know, you can see the tricks, as you said, Sean, you can see the decisions and I just kind of don't have as much patience for it,

which is personal preference rather than I think always a reflection on the quality of the movie itself. I'm really not trying to take away from the movie itself. I think it is quite an achievement, but as we're picking. Among five excellent movies. And it's just not.

It's not the one I revisit. Would you have. You wouldn't have considered Fight Club for number one. Chris. Let me see where I had it. One second. I never would have. I wasn't.

I was never thinking that. I think 1999 is slightly different. I had Fight Club at three. At three. Okay. So, I mean, I guess we'll go seven number five and Fight Club number four. Chris and I have obviously spent a lot of time talking

about seven. It's tough. I don't even know how to navigate this because seven and Fight Club are two of my favorite movies of the last 30 years, full stop. But are they as good as these other three movies

that we're going to talk about, I guess is the question. Well, I was willing to give you guys Gone Girl at number four. Hey, I've been thinking. Yeah? Something positive. Maybe it's time. Now is literally the worst time. It would be a new start for us.

And for me, I would have a real purpose here. A child is not a hobby. Not a hobby. An inspiration. We could have had this fight four hours ago. I'm late. I didn't know it was going to be a fight. Do you really want to be the couple that has a baby to save their marriage? Save?

I love Gone Girl. I think it's like a fascinating movie about Ben Affleck. And no one is more interested in anything having to do with Ben Affleck than me, except for possibly Juliette Lippman. And I think the first time you see that twist, it's really exciting. I also associate that moment, like the Gone Girl book and movie moment, a lot with you. Oh, thank you. That's terrifying. No, but I mean, it's like something that you really enjoyed. It appealed to a lot of your interests. It was like a cultural moment where a bestseller then became like a big movie with a big movie star and with a huge director. It was like a cool thing.

No, I mean, and that was very exciting. And I love that he did it. I still don't think the movie gets there with the Rosamund Pike character. It just doesn't. And I think that's because David Fincher is interested in a completely different thing in that book and in the actors before him. And I think it's fascinating that he pursued that. Um, but I just don't, it is a little, it, it gets away. That character gets away from it a bit, I think. And it's a bit lopsided. The cuts are hilarious, by the way. I don't know if you guys rewatched it for this podcast, but it does like commercial

fade out every five seconds, which is very funny. Listen, I love it. But I think in terms of being like a whole movie. Number four feels good to me. That's such a good point about the fades. You know, it feels like he is making a comment on like Dateline NBC shows. You know, like the whole movie feels like an active comment on that,

which is one of the great things. I mean, the same thing is true of Seven. The same thing is true of all of his movies. He basically takes these genre movies and then he tries to make them as extreme as possible in their depictions of violence or terror or what have you. And then he basically satirizes them while making them exciting. And there's literally nobody else that can do that, that has that control of tone. I think that Seven at Five and Gone Girl at Four feels reasonable. And then that leaves us with fight club,

Zodiac and the social network fight club at number three is what you said. You had Chris. I think that seems reasonable. Um, that's as high as I, uh, would feel comfortable. How about that?

Well, the language of diplomacy, I don't want to trample all over whenever we're going to do fight club on the rewatchables. And I'm sure we'll do it at some point down the road. Hopefully post-vaccine so that we can all be together so then Chris and I can end the episode by beating each other's faces in. No, I have to pour lye on your hand.

Oh, yeah, that's right. Our fathers were the models for gods. Yeah, I mean, we're the first generation raised by women, right you know it's it's important to note that so that leaves us with the top two zodiac and the social network now i'll just come right out and say it i think i think zodiac is number one darlene farron worked at the Vallejo House of Pancakes on the corner of Tennessee and Carroll. Arthur Lee Allen lived in his mother's basement on Fresno Street. Door to door that is less than 50 yards.

Is that true? I've walked. We've talked about The Social Network many times on this show. In fact, I think most of it... Did all three of us agree it's the best movie of the 2010s? We did.

Yes. And it is. I don't think it was much of a debate. I still don't think it's much of a debate that it's the best movie of the 2010s. Zodiac was released in 2007. I think Zodiac is in the is in the 100 greatest films of all time conversation.

And I rewatched it again this week. Great experience. Wonderful film. Um, I think Chris agrees with me and I think Amanda doesn't agree with me. Is that accurate? That is correct. I came prepared to lose on this.

I don't think it was any surprise of where, um, that Chris would just put his life on the line for Zodiac. He's made that pretty clear. Um, I also just want to say that Zodiac rules. I also rewatched it. It was amazing.

And Chris, remember I was, I was in a very bad mood and I was texting you about my various complaints with cinema and including the fact that when I, this is a true story, this is what it's like being Chris. He just has to get these texts. And the fact that I looked, this is a true story. This is what it's like being Chris. He just has to get these texts. And the fact that I looked up Zodiac in preparation to rewatch it.

And I was reminded that it was like two hours and 40 minutes. And I was just like, God damn it. I have a lot going on and that's long. And I'm really surly. Let me tell you who was up until midnight on her iPad in with the AirPods in bed, just wrapped and freaked out finishing Zodiac because those last 45 minutes, like, are you kidding me? And in terms of just like filmmaking and engaging you and just, just the pure dread. And there are some really terrifying scenes,

including that scene in broad daylight, which it's like everything I ever wanted David Fincher to do in terms of like abandoning his like dark grimy style. And then he just turns it and he's like, here you go, Amanda, this is the most terrifying thing that's ever been put on film, which I respect.

But yeah, you're referring to the Lake Berry. So yeah, yeah, yeah which I respect, but yeah, you're referring to the Lake Berry. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Jesus. So like I have total respect for it.

Um, not even respect for it. It's amazing. I'm fine with it being number one. I do vote for the social network as a, I don't know, not a dissent vote, I would say,

but a vote of honor for just, I mean, that movie is going to live forever. And I like that movie, um, started so many careers. I think it got the most out of my favorite screenwriter who, um, who I love, but you know, can be a little self-indulgent himself. And I think Fincher can be a little self-indulgent and they met in the middle there and I think it gave us a language for understanding one of the most powerful and not necessarily in a great way entities of our time it's just like we will be talking about that movie 50 years to come it's incredible and also it's so fun to watch so I think that there is a world in which you could say these are one A and one B. We're not going to do that here because that would be no fun. But I think Social Network is an incredible movie about the world and Zodiac is an incredible movie about life. And to me, there's a little bit

of a... You can feel that Social Network is in service of a screenplay and in service of an idea and in service of, you know, uh, producers who have asked him to make this film and he thinks he can do a great job. And then there is a degree about Zodiac where I feel like that's the closest thing to like a,

a statement of purpose that we get from Fincher where he is like, this is what life is actually like all of the things that you try to do, the world is against you, and it is going to eventually erase you from existence. And every archetype that I like in movies are in Zodiac. The cunning detective, the brainy puzzle guy the crusading newspaperman all of these people go up against this basically faceless nameless always ghost like

presence of the zodiac killer and they get fucking wiped off the planet or live on a houseboat drinking vodka and playing Atari that is what happens at the end of your life you think you have something to offer the world you think you're doing good in the world and then you get fucking stepped on.

There's something pure and so clear about what Zodiac is about to me. Also, both of these films are so rewarding to rewatch over and over and over again somehow. They're so odd

in their pacing. They're so odd in their pacing. They're so unique in their worldview and the way that they look. And I find myself returning to Zodiac probably once every nine to 15 months or something. But yeah, I mean, we've talked about these movies so much, but those are the differences for me. Yeah, I think in the same way that athletes have a prime, I think filmmakers also have a prime i think filmmakers

also have a prime a lot of filmmakers they hit their prime in their you know their late 20s early 30s in part because they have you know they're like rappers they've like i've been waiting my whole life to make this and in many ways seven is like is a is a debut rap album right it's like extraordinary he's putting all of this stuff that he's been waiting his whole career to put into a movie but it's he's he's a little bit more of like a later in life person who realizes and these two things come in succession zodiac and the social network and he does it in different ways the social network is propulsive and kind of fast and scored that way you know when you're watching it you look at the regatta sequence for example or you look at

the kids diving off the pool or you look at the coding showdown or you look at the regatta sequence, for example, or you look at the kids diving off the pool, or you look at the coding showdown, or you look at the dinner with Sean Parker for the first time, all of these incredibly memorable sequences, they cut fast, they move fast, they have energy. Do you think I deserve it? What? Do you think I deserve your full attention? I had to swear an oath before we began this deposition, and I don't want to perjure myself. So I have a legal obligation to say no. Okay, no. You don't think I deserve your attention? I think if your clients want to sit on my shoulders and call themselves tall, they have a right to give it a try. But there's no requirement that I enjoy

sitting here listening to people lie. And that's not necessarily what we think of when we think of Fincher, but Amanda, to your point, it's an iron sharpens iron thing. By having to keep pace with Sorkin's script, it changes the kind of filmmaker he is. In the same way that Fincher's, I don't know, kind of like decrepit attitude about people, I think helps Sorkin a lot. And it softens some of his bullshit. And, you know, I love Sorkin, but he brings one too many cheery speeches to the table when he's making movies and so it's fascinating to watch that movie in comparison to zodiac which i think

is propulsive in its own way but is is on a long calm walk that is never boring as opposed to several different films i mean the protagonist ofodiac changes like two or three times. Who do you guys, because I want to ask you who you guys relate to the most out of the Zodiac triumvirate and who do you think Fincher relates to the most? Paul Avery, Robert Gray Smith,

or Dave Toshki? I relate to Avery the most, but I don't think that that's who Fincher thinks is the hero of that movie. I don't know who he is. I mean, I suppose Gray Smith, but... Yeah, well, I would say that Gray Smith is the hero of that movie. I don't know who he is. I mean, I suppose Graysmith, but... Yeah, well, I would say that Graysmith

is the ultimate hero of that movie. I mean, that's just like a structural answer as well, right? Like it ends with him and it's all like funneling towards him writing the book that would inspire at least part of this. So, and I think also everyone's life falls apart but you see his life fall apart the most primarily because chloe 70 has to be there playing the thankless wife role but we love you chloe so yeah i would say that he is the protagonist he's the protagonist but i wouldn't

say that that's who i identify i don't know know who I identify with. I mean, I think Fincher likes Bullet. You know, like I think he likes Tashi, but I am not sure that... You know, we talked a little bit in the first episode about some of the stories from his sets. And it's really interesting how the making of Zodiac sort of mirrors what happens to the people in Zodiac. I was just watching this interview.

It was like an actor's roundtable with Ruffalo and Edward Norton and a couple of other people. And Ruffalo was talking about making Zodiac. And he was like, we were on the 90th take of a walk and talk. And it was one of my first days of work. And he started walking over to me. And I thought to myself, you know what, they're going to have to pay me anyway.

They got the wrong guy, and I know they got the wrong guy, and obviously he's finally figured it out. And Fincher just walks by Ruffalo and moves an extra two inches to the left? The background guy behind me, and he moved him like two inches, and then he turned around and walked away

and patted me on the back as he went. And I went, you know what? This dude is like, I'm only 10% of the frame, and this guy's going for 100%. But all of the guys in that movie got broken by Fincher. Downey, Gyllenhaal, and Ruffalo. And that's what happens to them in the movie. And I don't know.

There is like an added kind of element to the strife that happened on the set of Zodiac or the alleged strife or whatever that makes it almost a little bit more spicy to me.

Yeah. And I mean, look at what the kinds of projects that those guys made after this. They're not entirely restricted to things

like the MCU, but they definitely leaned into the MCU a little bit harder after that. Well, Gyllenhaal seems like he's got a point to prove ever since then.

I agree. Yeah, I agree. I think that Gyllenhaal in many ways went out to show the world that he could withstand these kinds of roles and performances. And in fact, like is proving himself by pursuing them as an artist. Whereas Downey is like,

it's Sherlock Holmes and Iron Man. Never again. Yeah. I'm not 10% of anything. Yeah, I'm not pissing in a jar on a set. I'm 100% of all things. Yeah. I think that this is a really good consensus.

I think I wish I was a Dave Toshki, and I'm really a Robert Graysmith. And I think we're all kind of Robert Graysmiths in this line of work, ultimately. A little too obsessive, a little bit, have spent a little bit too much time thinking about these things probably spent a little bit too much time ignoring some of the things that that matter most this is the rare um you know wife who has to deal with a character that feels almost self-aware you know you can almost feel

Chloe Sevigny satirizing that character and that's the whole point of the character in many ways don't want to give too much credit to the thinking there but seven gone girl fight club the social network zodiac can't do better i don't think you can do better it's an amazing thing um chris uh if you had to send a message to your 11 followers and their thousands of bot accounts, what would you want to say to them at the end of this show? You're seen. You're seen and you're heard. Amanda, now that you've betrayed the sanctity of democracy on this show, what do you want to say to your followers?

Here's what I want to say to you. Chill out. That was actually a pretty calm and diplomatic and respectful top five process. And if I had to do something for the pod, yeah, sorry, I brought you content. That's the biz. Well, thanks for supplying all the content, guys. If you like content like this, which includes the three of us hectoring each other over made up games, please tune into The Big Picture. Wait, can I ask one really quick question about the movie draft? Yes, of course. How many draft picks have you been penalized

for your past crimes? Well, it all depends on how many you will be penalized because you also committed crimes in the last episode. So if you'd like to broker a deal with me offline without Amanda, I'm willing to engage you in that conversation since that's the kind of politics we're now playing on this show because of your bad faith okay i just want to say that i almost texted chris about my nuclear option last night and i didn't because i do everything in broad daylight okay but also what i would like to propose yeah like a tyrant like a fascist you're afraid of the consequences have we met like all is this news to you okay i spent the whole first part of this podcast being like david fincher is my hero because he just tells everyone

to shut up um my proposal for the 2012 draft since both of you uh aired a bit in 2011 is that you have to pick the 2012 movies that you used in 2011 for the 2012 draft as well. So I would have to pick Oslo, August 31st? Yes. Yeah, okay. And your sister's sister. What? I didn't do two.

It was a 2012 release, I believe. So Chris, you could wipe the slate clean if you wanted to just trade on that. Wait, so it's either we have to pick those movies again that's not good podcasting we don't want to just talk about the same movies again ah i see now that you also have aired twice i see content i see very interesting i i mean i think there's some complexity to what you're suggesting amanda because i was brownly accused of category fraud for choosing the raid as a drama whereas i just was sloppy but okay i

thought that there was also another one that you that was a 2012 cabin in the woods yeah the cabin in the woods in the raid which played like fantastic fest once since i don't since i have better things to do with my time remind no one accused you of category fraud for X-Men First Class? We can discuss that, but I stand by that one. Oh, we can discuss it. Oh, can we? Okay. I invented the game.

Do prequels count as sequels? They certainly do. This isn't Tron. We're doing a podcast. Isn't it? Okay. We're all stuck in our homes looking at screens. Is it not Tron?

I would open it up. I would love to hear from people as to what they think your penalties should be. I'll let you know what my guys say. You let me know what they say. The other thing, Sean, that I was going to, I don't really know how you do this in public, but I did think that we should start like a side pool of like, what will Chris's weirdest pick be? Because as I was going through the 2012 list, I was just like, I can see Chris doing this.

I can see Chris doing this, you know, but also it's always, it's not what you expect. That's the joy of it. So maybe we can figure out a mechanism for that. Given that there are no new movies coming out in movie theaters for the next several months, we're going to have to get our rules in order here. So maybe we will relaunch the movie draft with 2012 and we will

lay out even more detail about how you can and cannot play the game. I take full responsibility for the mistakes made thus far, though I now realize... Culture of accountability, it's important. That's right. But I have to say that out loud because I know I'm playing with cheaters. Well, no, you got to build trust with your audience, Sean. That's the number one... Oh, this is great. Bobby just suggested that we make a movie draft constitution. Yeah, well, we know what happens to the constitution in a country like ours.

It is assaulted on a daily basis. Thank you so much, Amanda and Chris. We'll see you guys next week. Please stick around now for my conversation with Miranda July. Very delighted to be joined by Miranda July. Miranda Miranda thank you for being on the show yes thank you for having me I want to jump right into Kajillionaire I was curious when you started working on this film when did you first start writing it yeah I was just looking at my first note in my Evernote file and it was at the very end of 2015. So I guess like

2016 is, is when I started, but I had some, like the idea was just starting. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what prompted that idea? Well, yeah. I mean, I woke up to it. I woke up to that family, like the two women with the long hair and the man, just kind of in my half-awake mind. And I just started taking dictation on my phone, like just kind of like this feeling like I was pulling on a thread and I was just going to keep pulling and not judge what it was or whether it was good or bad. And I did that on and off for about three days in a really annoying way. I remember when you're on, I was on like a family vacation and I kept being like, hold on. And then like, like turning towards the wall and mumbling into my phone. Yeah.

Did you know that it was a film right away? How do you decide what kind of medium to put your ideas into? truly the moment I'm done writing a book, I'm like wanting to have a movie idea if I don't have one already. So it had to be like, because I wanted to make a movie now that, you know, I kind of just alternate. So. When did that develop? When did you decide that you were going to do the back and forth routine? Well, actually, I guess, when my first movie, Me and You and Everyone We Know, like, it came out in the world. And I remember there was kind of this flurry of like, what are you going to do next? And I was really clear that my big prize for that movie, for myself would be if I could sort of parlay it into getting this manuscript of short stories that I had written kind of over the same time as, as me and you, if I could get that

published. And my feeling was like, I don't, I don't want people to think I'm just like this indie filmmaker, because it's a, it's like a bigger thing than that in my mind. Like I had a lot more room than that and I didn't want it to all of a sudden get real small just because one thing happened to be, you know, break out in this way. And so I really made sure, and that book was called No One Belongs Here More Than You.

And kind of like, okay, now there's room for these two things. And then, you know, I also kept performing and making art and, and that was just my own. I mean, literally no agent or anyone has ever cared or, I mean, not that they don't care, like they're lovely people, but it's like, you have to have that idea yourself because it's not really the way of the world. Yeah. Right. No one says you've completed your first film.

Now it's time for you to publish your short story. Yeah, exactly. You know, I was reading through the book that was released, kind of compiling and recounting your work from earlier this year. And I really liked seeing the list to end all lists, that list that you wrote when you were very young. And it's so interesting to see you. I mean, how old were you? 17 or 18 when you wrote that? Yeah.

And you were, you know, it's obviously you have all this creativity and you're trying to figure out where to put your ideas, but it's also very organized and strategic. You kind of like understood, you know, you need promotion, you need publicity, you need technical aspects to make your things I was so impressed by that like is are you still that way yeah it's so funny that it's called that because of course no that is the first list the beginning of a never-ending list um uh yes exactly I I'm constantly making lists and re like I I mean, I will have the, the to-do list, you know, there's the big to-do list that's sort of ongoing and then the one for the day. And then I'll make

a little one that's like just for the next two hours, you know, to constantly be like, well, what is the most important thing now? Um, yeah, that's crucial for me. i so i so relate to this um what what do you think motivates that why how did you become a person that kind of is it like ambition or is it the desire to be busy you know why do you think you develop that instinct um i think it's the combination of like big ideas that seem um kind of esoteric and like not real like the very definition of like an internal fantasy world and then a real strong desire for things to be real um for things to like get made become objects become shareable uh and so the list is the, it's like the conduit between those two equal and very different spaces. Yeah. What does the list look like before you

get ready to make a film then? What are you doing in addition to writing the script, what is happening? Right. It's a lot of, you know, there's each department, you know, what becomes departments, but began as like a folder of photographs, you know, that show like costume and light and color and locations and, you know, but that gets whittled down to like, I need to talk to Jennifer Johnson about, you know, the stripe on Old Dolio's sweatshirt that I think it's maybe needs to be dirtier, you know? And like, I mean, so many little things and they are, and at that point, I guess the strange thing that happens is your to-do list becomes like the to-do list of a community. It's like a small town is built to sort of churn through this to-do list as an entity, which is so incredible. I work alone, so alone most of the time that when it scales up and it's very expensive, so you can only do that for a set amount of days. But when it does, it's really wild. I mean, it's how I imagine like politics must feel or something where you are part of an organism.

Yeah. And just like with elections, you've taken a pretty significant amount of time between feature films. I was curious before you started on this one, did you find that it was any easier or any harder to get people interested in the idea of giving you money to make something like this? Because this is a fairly big film, I feel like, even based on the previous two you've made. Yeah. Yeah. And I did, like, part of my excitement about making a third movie was just that this one would be a little bigger. Not crazily, but I was like, oh, look, here's an idea that I'm not in. That means that I can cast female leads. And I can, and this story was sort of built to I don't know you don't write an airplane flight you know if you don't think you're gonna get like many millions of dollars um uh it was easy such a wild thing to say um I I had gotten gotten a fan letter from Dee Dee Gardner of Plan B about my novel, The First Bad Man, and it was very pure. I mean, she just loves literature and poetry and it's a real reader. But I was writing Kajillionaire at the time. So I remember thinking,

huh, well, if you liked that, who knows? You know, maybe I should send you this script when I'm done. And I did. And she came over and said, let's do this. And she already had this relationship with Annapurna. Plan B and Annapurna were working together at that time. And so it just was fully financed like that uh well you've been such a i don't know fiercely independent seems like such a bullshit phrase

but it seems like you've been a fiercely independent artist for your during your career your adult life right and do you still think of yourself that way, even when you're getting many millions of dollars from the Brad Pitt production company to make the big movie that you want to make with an airplane? Right. Yes, because they weren't there the whole time I was writing it. I was totally alone writing whatever I thought was best. So, and then, to be honest, you know, they also agreed to, like, I had complete creative control. Like, Dee Dee Gardner sat on the set every single day, but she didn't give me even one note. She's just there because she likes to be there. and in case anything truly terrible happens um and so i mean it it felt as free if not the most free project i'd ever done everyone was totally hands-off for better or worse i mean i don't you

know part of the reason i'm so interested in this particular aspect of it because i feel like the film so much of the film is about money and kind of what what how money is power and what it means to people and the pursuit of it and um why did that become such a an important theme of this movie yeah it's funny i've done a few projects in different mediums in just the last few years that all had money as this kind of conceptual you know know, it never, never quite means what money is supposed to mean, you know, but it's a, it's a holder of all these feelings. And it might, I mean, I can only guess because this all comes from my unconscious and I have no idea, but I think it might have a little bit to do with, like, I'm now at a point in my life where I should have money. It seems like, or, you know,

you imagine when you're a child, you know, that there's a, there's something with this point in adulthood. And sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. It's, you know, I'm an artist. It's, I've had to commit to a completely fleeting relationship with money. But in some ways, you can kind of have it if you work with it as a material, you know? Like you can, it has an authority to it and you can have it in another way by invoking it. And maybe that's more interesting. That's hard for me to unpack but i think that that

makes sense um you know you mentioned that you're obviously not starring in the film how did it make directing the movie different for you from the previous two yeah it was um just pretty fun i mean fun that's the terrible word it's never fun but um I mean I had thought like well oh no I'm not gonna have these days where I get to kind of be like a child you know an actor gets to be sort of irresponsible like and I sort of enjoyed to some degree that balance of being like the most responsible person and and then all of a sudden, you know, totally irresponsible for just a few minutes while the while we were rolling. And the truth is, that's quite hard, as it turns out. Now that I've experienced something else, it's much easier to be one person. And then you're also there to kind of hold that for all these actors.

And they're also going to be way better because that's the only thing they're doing. They're going to be like utterly devoted. Whereas I could never be that besides the fact that I'm not like, you know, I do the job, but I'm no Evan Rachel Wood. You know, like I want Evan Rachel Wood. How did she come to be a part of it? I, well, I mean, in the most literal sense, like I asked my friend Carrie Brownstein, I was like, Hey, do you know Evan Rachel Wood? And she's like, I do. Do you want me to text her? And I was like, could you?

And then thank God she was sort of, I mean, that's such a telling moment when you reach out to someone, you kind of know, um, based on their response, whether there's something deeper here or, you know, whether this is just like a job. And she, she kind of had a response of like, ah, the time has come. Like, you have come to me now, you know? And it was, yeah, it was like substantial from the get-go. And we had dinner together. And I was kind of like, give me a signal.

Like, you're quite lovely and feminine in a way. Like, is there an old Dolio in there? And yeah, without a doubt, I mean, there was. By the end of the night, I was kind of giddy with the secret that I had of this person within heaven. She definitely transforms into someone we haven't seen from her before. I was so curious about Deborah Winger, who we don't see that much anymore. And, you know, I think it was pretty choosy and it was so cool to see her in your film. How did she come to be a part of it? Yeah. I mean, she was on my, um,

you know, fantasy wishlist. Like you get to with a woman of that age, you know, you're looking at kind of people you grew up with as stars, like really larger than life figures. And wildly, I realized she followed me on Instagram, which can mean nothing, right? But in her case, it actually did mean that she knew my work and had read my books. And I think that doesn't have to happen. I don't think Richard Jenkins had ever heard of me before I wrote him a fan letter. But it helps if it's going to be this really hot woman playing like a woman with no makeup, this long gray hair, like with a limp, like you're going to make the leap. Um, I think it helps that she, she's just like, okay, again, this is super uncomfortable, but I'm going to kind of give you the benefit of the doubt here. And yeah.

Yeah. I think she's pretty, pretty amazing. I wanted to ask you about doing some of the, I don't know, some of the bigger production decisions, you know, you mentioned the airplane and I saw that, you know,

that behind the scenes photo is kind of fascinating. And, you know, the, obviously the kind of data is like the bubbles and everything that's happening in the film. And what was it like to just kind of scale up just a little bit um from a kind of technical and filmmaking perspective you know how did you did you have to have a much bigger crew to accomplish some of these things was it more of a challenge for you

it's sort of just delightful you know it it just means that you can kind of flow. You're like, this is how the bubble should be. This is the color. This is the size. This is how fast they should move. And then there's this effects company, Dave Peters, that's just like, really, it's their entire job all day long to get that to happen exactly the way you want it to happen as if it's, you know, as if you are

building an airplane or building or something that's going to exist for more than a day. Um, I mean, it's so crazy what we do in movies and the labor and the care put into these leading things but um so yeah the feeling is like you can just go without stopping and you get to work with very very talented people in each area um and so you get to kind of keep having your dream um there's some part of me that will always be ready like like I did run a bubble bath with some red dye and like just double check, like, could I do this myself? Like if I had to, like, I think I'm scrappy enough that there's always the backup plan of like, well, I should at least be acquainted with bubbles. Like, I don always do my homework you know sure um i also really responded to the sequence in which the family kind of play acts normalcy you know i think that's like such a striking and incredible part of the film and it feels like the movie is you know very connected to your other two films this this kind of difficulty and desperation to

connect with other people um i was just hoping you could kind of talk about that idea and that sequence in particular what kind of what you were going for there like from an artist's point of view like i'm someone who's devoted my life to making um these worlds that aren't real, but obviously I believe they have the power to actually make real things happen within people. Um, or I wouldn't work so hard on them. And so in a way, that's, that's what happens in that scene. It's like a little movie, right? It's like, maybe if we feel this for just a short time, we can be changed. And it doesn't work like that, but it is sort of the turning point of the whole movie. The whole movie is changed by that moment and kind of, to my mind, starts to tunnel inward.

And so it's like life in that way. It doesn't do the thing you wanted it to do, but something else happens. That's important. How do you feel about the film being released into this very curious and sometimes very difficult period in history? Yeah. So not what I pictured. And at first, like everyone else, I was very disappointed and sorry for myself. And then I guess what's shifted it is all these conversations with people who've only seen the movie within the pandemic. They didn't see it at Sundance or an early cut or anything. So they have only ever been this person, this self-isolating, quarantining, trying to survive this pandemic person. And that has made me come to believe that I made this movie for us now.

I know that's sort of too magical, but that is the fact is it came out now, not some other time. And, and I'm kind of owning that. Like I, I don't want to have made it for us before. Like we don't get to have it. We're not ready. I don't want us later. We will have been through too much. We'll need another movie then. But it seems okay for now. What is success for you for a project like this? Are you the kind of person that is reading criticism and looking at box office receipts? Do you care about that stuff when you're making a

movie? I mean, box office won't matter for this one, but I couldn't tell you about that on any of mine. I think all I want to know is just the initial, like, is this going to play for a room of people or for people in front of their computers? like, I just need a few key pieces of evidence. And sometimes that happens, like, on a large scale. And sometimes you're like, you know, it will, but only for this kind of person or, you know, whatever, like, it's, there's not, there's different degrees of success. And so I think, you know like a a woman sent me a text the other day with a toothpick in her mouth um and she had just watched the movie and it was so moving to me she you know she said she really loved it but that image was like oh it's just worth so much.

And so I don't really need, once I've read like the requisite, you know, four reviews or something, like I don't go, you know, past that. Unless it's like something truly interesting that people have drawn my attention to or something. Because, but I get it from individual people hopefully for years I mean I just someone just sent me a letter about a book of mine and I'm like okay now I'm finally like that was the best best response to that book and that came out years ago you know so these things hang on and you I try not to be too quick to decide you know what it was you've you've made so many different so many different kinds of art I was wondering if there's like a a format or an approach or a

medium that you've wanted to do but either haven't had the chance or the means or something that you would want to do in the future yeah I used to have things like that and now there's so many things like on my immediate plate I'm always just desperate to like finish the next five years worth of things. Mike, my husband reminded me the other day, he's like, what about your, your like variety talk show you wanted to have? And I was like, like right I think that might have been like a person in their 30s idea I don't I feel less about that now um but yeah at the time there were more things like that and now now I kind of I feel sort of quite deep in with uh like I want to be a better writer you know I want to be a better filmmaker so yeah it's more like that because you finished a film writer you know i want to be a better filmmaker so yeah it's more like that because you finished a film are you going back to a book now um weirdly i did i started

a movie project right out it's like i had such a good experience with this one um i wasn't like burnt out i was like well that was great let's do another one. And so I, um, I sort of simultaneously began my book that I'm writing now that is my real front burner project, but I do have a kind of exciting thing that I get to dip into now and then, um, that, yeah, that I cannot speak about. That you're not going to tell me anything about i saw that one coming a mile away um miranda we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen have you been watching anything good lately uh i've been watching this um there's this artist named ian ching who's like a video video artist but he uses like game engines to make uh these worlds that are so fascinating to me i mean they're like they're like movies but they're they're also sort of

painting like um so in terms of what the that was the last great thing that was in front of my face where can we see can we see that anywhere? You can just look it up. Yeah. Ian Chang, C-H-E-N-G. I think. Yeah.

I'm forgetting the name, but all his work, there's only like, there's like maybe four pieces and you can just watch them all online. He's like a, you know, like an art world artist, not a filmmaker. That's that,

that is a unique and solid recommendation, the likes of which we don't usually get. So Miranda, thanks so much for being here and congrats on Kajillionaire. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you to Miranda July and thank you, of course, to Amanda Dobbins, Chris Ryan and Bobby Wagner.

If you like Anarchy, please come back to the big picture next week where we'll be having the 2012 edition of the movie draft. We'll see you then.