The Big Picture - ‘The Discovery’ Director Charlie McDowell | The Big Picture (Ep. 7)

Episode Date: March 31, 2017

The Ringer's Editor-in-Chief Sean Fennessey sits down with director Charlie McDowell to discuss his new film The Discovery (1:55), casting Robert Redford (12:58), being one of Netflix's first major features (21:05) and how to pull off an ending with a twist (18:45). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Major League Baseball is finally back. As the new season gets underway, the Ringer Podcast Network has baseball fans covered with the Ringer MLB Show, playing exclusively on the TuneIn app for the month of April. On top of that, the Ringer Podcast Network has partnered with TuneIn to give baseball fans a free 30-day trial TuneIn Premium to listen to every live home call from every MLB game around the league. Catch the Ringer MLB Show only on TuneIn during April. And with your premium subscription, listen to live MLB games on TuneIn. And now here's my interview with Charlie McDowell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. His new movie, The Discovery, is a fascinating sci-fi drama about what happens when the world learns that the afterlife exists. It debuts on Netflix today, March 31st.

Charlie McDowell, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. So I want to open this very clearly, which is, as a child, did you like puzzles? You know, I did. I know why you're asking me this, because my movie is somewhat of a puzzle and my first film is similar. I did. I know why you're asking me this, because my movie is somewhat of a puzzle and my first film is similar. I did. I sort of I be I become obsessed with things in a certain way, almost to the point of like having some form of OCD. I wouldn't say I wouldn't put me in like the genius category of like I can do a Rubik's cube under 30 seconds or whatever. I'm not that kind of person, but I love to focus on a specific thing with a goal in mind.

So I think that that's what sort of translated into making films as well. Yeah. The one I love, your first movie, we should say, is about a couple that is having some marital problems and goes on a sort of a home retreat of sorts and discover some new things about themselves. Yes. This movie, why don't you explain just a little bit about what the discovery is? The discovery is about a scientist who proves the existence of the afterlife. And as a result, millions of people start killing themselves to go to a new place, you know, the next life, whatever that is. And it's sort of, it's a love story set in that world.

So the concept or sort of the big idea or the hook for me was always meant to be the backdrop to a real character story. And ultimately, we focus on the characters. We focus on this love story and then a father-son story and a brother story. But it was never the intention to like, you know, we have this massive idea and we wanted to explore it as far as we could. But because we're making a smaller independent film you know we can't rely on a big budget movie to take us through like the global um parts of the story

that that you know someone like christopher nolan or someone would explore so for us it was like it's really a character study and character piece that has a a high concept behind it where did this movie come from did you just start from scratch and start writing yeah it was well it's funny because we just wrapped the one i love and and we shot it up in ohio california and we were driving back to la me and justin my writing partner and and he was sort of i could tell he like wanted to say something to me and so i was like what what is it and he's like well i have a new idea for a movie and i was like oh god can't we just it's like we literally just wrapped i'm like can't we just relax a little bit um and he's like no i just

have like a sort of one-line pitch and i was like okay and he said what if the afterlife was proven um and you know sort of science and religion came together? What would what would people do? And then we started to discuss that concept more. And and I think the idea of suicide came up not in a way that, you know, suicidal people would take their own lives. It's more what if you don't love the life that you're in? What if you can't pay your mortgage? What if you've gone through a horrible breakup? Like we've all had these feelings where we said, oh, I want to kill myself and we don't actually mean it. But what if death isn't death anymore? What if you're constantly living, but just in a different place each time time and so i think all of these these ideas became

really interesting to us right away and then it was like okay let's build uh you know a real character piece set in that world and that was our sort of that was our starting off point and then we we wrote the first scene which is this this interview between Dr. Harbour, who proves the existence of the afterlife, and an interviewer. And that was the first thing we wrote. And we didn't even have other characters. Right, but don't you think your discovery was just too dangerous to share with the world? Look, this has been my life's work for over 40 years.

There's nothing willy-nilly here. After much discussion, much debate, we all came to the same conclusion. Which is? Which is once you explore all scientific possibilities and you come to consensus, how can you keep a discovery so vital to our existence a secret? And that discovery, you proved the existence of an afterlife. I prefer to call it a new plane of existence. Look, I can't comment on terminology like soul and heaven and afterlife,

but what I can say with scientific certainty is that once the body dies, some part of our consciousness leaves us and travels to a new plane. We just wanted to explore what the sort of global idea was here. Why did it take you six months to address us? Where have you been? It seems to me that I invite you here to my home. Yes, you did. Thank you. But we only received that invitation

after the suicide toll had rapidly reached a million. And during that time, celebrities, athletes, even a close colleague of yours all ended their lives. Which is why I agreed to sit with you and try to calm the waters. It's interesting what you said about the first scene specifically. I mean, even in talking with my producer, I jumps right out at you. It's an easy way to explain the concept of the movie. Do you often, when you're writing, think of a way to kind of shotgun audiences into the story that you're telling? Well, it's a really easy way to say, this is the world. And now we're going to like focus on a very small part of it. And like I said, like this concept's big enough that like,

you know, a filmmaker like a Christopher Nolan or someone that explores these really big ideas, he would do, you know, a huge, big budget version of this where we would see globally how this is affecting the world. And for us, we never had the opportunity to do that, and nor did we really want to. For us us it was more interesting to follow a set of characters and just focus on them and have this sort of concept be the backdrop so it was a great way that opening scene was a great way to say this is what's happening in the world um and now the story begins so it's almost like a prologue in a way to the to the actual story you know for me when i think of the afterlife, it's a very spiritual

conceit. It's very like I was raised Catholic, so I have a clear sense of what the idea is. But you do an interesting job of making concepts that are often laden with spirituality, you know, scientific and thoughtful and sort of like dreamlike, but not bound by religion. You know, was that a very specific choice that you guys were trying to make? Yeah, everyone's gonna have their own opinion and their own baggage when watching this movie. And some people will connect to it, I think, in a deep way. And other people, you know, could be offended or angered by it if it doesn't explore their belief system in the way that that they would want it to um and so it's tough when you're playing with in this sandbox which is like this you know these

these massive ideas that people have really strong opinions about and for us it was like we you know we did drafts and drafts of the script so we went down so many different rabbit holes of okay what is the story and what do we want to explore there's definitely drafts where it script. So we went down so many different rabbit holes of, okay, what is the story and what do we want to explore? There was definitely drafts where it's like, we're getting more into the religious aspect to it. And then ultimately I felt like that wasn't, um, that wasn't the story I wanted to tell. Um, there's too many different ideas about religion and I didn't want to focus on a specific one. I wanted it to, again, be all coming from character. So, you know, because one of our main characters is a scientist and his son is in science in some way, that felt like the best way into the story. You make it more about the

science of it, but ultimately it doesn't focus on the specific science. We're sort of making up a version of what we're trying to tell, you know? So again, it always relates back to character. So that's how we think. It's like, okay, can we tell this story or talk about this sort of science through this character? And if we can, then we go there. So did you actually try to explore any of the practical elements of the ideas that you're trying to get across? Because obviously there's no real science behind the conceit of the film. But you mentioned Christopher Nolan earlier. You always get the impression when you're watching a Christopher Nolan movie that he and his writing partners have spent a lot of time trying to crack the code on fifth dimensions.

Yeah. Did you guys get into that at all? We just read a lot and you know there there's a lot of people out there that have you know experiences uh either near death or you know died for a minute or died for two minutes and came back to life and have very specific images and so that became something that i i was fascinated by visually And that's so for me in sort of putting together the visuals of what the afterlife is, that was always inspired by people's stories. In terms of the science, it's not there. But there's definitely science in that some sort of energy or something leaves our body and possibly goes somewhere.

So for us, it was about taking the sort of kernel of the idea and then going our own direction with it, which is obviously made up. But I think it's something that we as humans think about and are programmed to think about from an early age, just in terms of even in religion of like heaven and hell. And you see it in cartoons where it's like the character dies and their spirit floats up or goes down. And that's our first introduction into, you know, where we go when we die. And so I think we're programmed as people to think about that. And for us, it's about, you know, really making a film that that sucks the audience in in a way that they sort of bring their own belief system into it. And

I think that everyone can interpret the film in a different way. It just depends on what your, you know, the makeup of who you are is. When you have a movie like this, that's so heady and a cast that is so good, you know, you mentioned Rooney, you mentioned Jason Segel, Robert Redford, Jesse Plemons, Riley Keough, you have really a great group of actors. Do they have a million questions about a story like this? Do they want to understand everything you're trying to do? Yes and no. Jason's character really, he's sort of the eyes of the audience. So he has to take us through this world and this story and we have to understand what's going on. And we also have to say, what all of this means. And then certain moments for him as an actor, he has to be playing it with, you know,

there's a sort of twist or reveal at the end, which I won't spoil. But if you watch it a second time, like Jason's doing some very intricate stuff and it's very subtle, but it's all, it's him understanding and knowing where this sort of ends up, this story ends up. So a lot of discussion with him, Redford as well, in terms of

this person, the scientist, this man, what he's trying to do. So there was a lot of discussion of that. This is going to seem like a dumb thing to say, but, um, Redford is really good in this movie and like as good as he's been in a long time. I'm sure you've heard that a little bit. Yeah, we've been hearing that a lot, which is for me, it's like at the end of the day, like praise for my actors is sort of the highest compliment I could ever get. So how did he end up in this movie? It's funny because Redford is like he's this sort of like untouchable figure, you know, definitely in my mind. Like I didn't think of him right away because there's no possibility in my mind that he's going to be in my movie.

It just doesn't it doesn't make any sense. So this agent, Brian DePersia at WME, sent a list of people that were available and Redford was on the list. And he called me and he was like, what about Redford? And I was like, what do you mean? I'm like, there's no way. This guy's an icon. He's not going to be in my silly little movie. And he's like, well, he's technically available. And then I found out that he was a fan of the one I love. So then he read the script and heard that he really liked it and he wanted to meet me in Santa Monica on a specific date. So I flew back from the East Coast because I was living there

and me and Justin, my writing partner, went to meet him and he was like, it was like one of these things where you're just like, this isn't real because it was in Santa Monica and he was sitting by a pool and he was wearing like a pool and he was wearing like a track suit and a bandana and and we like walk up and i was like this is this is like we're being punked or something like this isn't even real in an attempt to be incognito or no he's just he's just so cool like and it's like no one like if i ever wore that like everyone i know would

make fun of me yeah i was just like oh my god he's so cool and we just sit down with him and he's like the nicest man on the planet and he's incredibly smart and he's so with it and together and you know he's 80 years old and what's really cool about what he's doing is like later in his career he's taking on interesting stuff and he's not just playing a sort of caricature of himself like he's wanting to to explore interesting ideas and characters and i think for him it was like he connected to this idea um and and for me like you know this character is the world has to believe what this character is saying it's a sort of modern day Albert Einstein or Steve Jobs or something like that. And for me, it's like if someone says the

afterlife exists, if it's Redford, you believe it. That's right. And, you know, and there's very few there's maybe five actors on the planet where it's like they can just say in an interview, the afterlife exists. And you're like, yep, okay, sure, totally. And so yeah, it was just this, you know, a lot of it was timing, but it somehow worked out. And you know, I just have a lovely relationship with him and feel so lucky that I got to be a part of his career in some way. Yeah. And then you got to debut the movie at Sundance, which is obviously his domain. Yeah, it's the whole, I'm still sort of comprehending all of it and a certain point I'll, I'll understand it all. But yeah, it was, uh, yeah, we got like the opening weekend and he was there and, and at the, at the Q and A afterwards,

he like said these amazing things about me and working with me. And, and it's like, I'd recently just watched the video cause my mom filmed it. And I was like, this is so bizarre. Like, I still can't believe that he's even in the movie. Yeah, it was pretty special. So aside from working with an icon, how is this movie different from the last movie? Obviously, it's still an independent film, but it's bigger. There's movie stars in it. Yeah, the one I love was an incredible experience and such a fun movie to make. It was almost like an experiment in a way. It's like we're we were all living at the house. Mark and Lizzie were both incredible and so amazing to work with. And it was very like

hands on. It was sort of like, OK, let's all put our heads together and make a movie. And we shot that in 15 days. So it was really quick. I almost don't remember making it because it went by so fast. And then this this was actually the discovery was similar in that like it was much bigger, but we it was the same vibe. Everyone was incredibly close. And hopefully, I think that's something that I hope I carry on from project to project. And just that I like that atmosphere. I don't like when there's negative energy or people are challenging each other in some way. To me, it's like, let's all sort of put our heads together and figure out what we're trying to do here. So it was definitely bigger and that the crew was bigger

and there's more money and that was apparent, but the vibe actually was pretty similar. Okay, let's pause this conversation and take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. Listen to this. Have you ever been on a website and thought, this seems good, but what if we're a TV show instead? You're in luck. Since 1993, the AV clubs produced some of the best pop culture writing on the web. And now, after 20 years of talking about TV, things are coming full circle for the folks at the AV Club. They're getting their own TV show.

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This movie, like your last movie, has quite an ending. You're very good at endings. Many people are not. Many filmmakers struggle with that, even if they're great artists. I'm curious if that's something you and Justin talk a lot about and what the process is for landing on something that's going to make people say, holy shit. Yeah. Well, the hope is, is that we're, we have a holy shit ending that actually means something and is, and that we're earning that holy shit. We never do it for the sake of the shock value. It's always, it's always coming from a character and story place. But with this particular film, we had the opening and what we wanted to explore. And then we came up with the end and then we had no idea what to put in the middle. So we knew where we wanted to go, which was nice because when you know where you

want to go, then you can sort of, you know, if it's a puzzle, you can put these puzzle pieces in a way that it's like, okay, we're driving to this. And, and ultimately this is what we're saying. So we have something to say. We're not just, you know, coming up with a story. And then at the end, we're like, I don't know what this means. Um, so we knew what we wanted to say. Um, but it was, it was, this was really difficult to write. Like it was, It was real trial and error. And we had to explore many different versions of what it was. But I'm happy with the results.

I feel like I got to make the movie I wanted to make. And it's definitely, it's a movie that you use your head and then at a certain point, you connect it to your heart and then it's all feeling. And then by the end, the hope is it turns into, you know, an emotional piece, but not a lot of people want to watch a movie that way, you know, and so I and I know that and so it is a specific movie, but the hope is, is that the people that, you know, put in that time and that experience that it means something to them, you know, and that they remember it. And that's important for me as a filmmaker, you know put in that time and that experience that it means something to them you know and that they remember it and that's important for me as a filmmaker you know I go see every big entertaining movie so I'm not knocking them by any means but I'm not a filmmaker that wants

to be a part of that because I don't I don't know what I would be saying and I don't know why I would be making a movie unless I'm actually speaking about something. Because of that, and because of the ideas that you're trying to get across, and because you want there to be an emotional connection. Are you concerned about a spoiler culture? Are you self conscious about people talking about something like this on social media? Does it all have to be a black box? No, it doesn't because that's our that's our world today and that you have to accept that you can't believe that that you're going to have a spoiler free experience. So ultimately, like I do everything I can

in the marketing and sort of being on the same page as as Netflix is distributing this in a way that's like, let's let's show this and let's sort of market it in this direction. And then ultimately, you know, people hopefully want to watch it. And if they want to talk about it, that's fine. But what's interesting that that came from the one I love is like people really protected the movie in an interesting way. It was like everyone that wrote about the one I love is like people really protected the movie in an interesting way. It was like everyone that wrote about the film for the most part was saying, I'm not going to tell you what happens. I mean, people knew there was a twist, but they didn't want to spoil it because they respected what we were trying to say and the

direction that the film went. And that was like the ultimate compliment. Cause I think if we hadn't been successful in that way that people would have just said what, what it was and, and hopefully the discovery is the same. Um, we'll see. But, uh, but yeah, what's cool about the Netflix model is like this, this goes out to a hundred million users in 160 countries or whatever it is, and they all have it at the same time. So there's kind of there's no excuse. You know, it's like it's there in your home. It's on your phone like you can watch it anywhere. So I think it's more the traditional theatrical experience where people see a film and then they can go talk about it. And it takes a while for someone to get to the theater to go see it. So maybe they never see it if they hear what it's about. But I think that hopefully what this does is people start talking about it on social media in a way that's like

intriguing. And then it's like, OK, well, now I'm just going to go watch it on Netflix. Is that specifically why you decided to go with Netflix? I mean, do you have any misgivings about not having a major theatrical experience with a movie? Yeah, of course. I mean, like it, I set out for, for this movie to be seen in the theater and then that changed in a way that I'm, that I'm totally okay with. And, and the partnership with Netflix has been so successful and so strong. Um, and I really respect them and love what they're doing, especially this year with original films. I think it's like, this is the year of original films breaking out for Netflix and we're sort of one of the first to, to go for it. So were you sold on that? Did they say, we're going to make this effort to do this? So be a part of this.

Yeah, it was, they were, they believed in this film from the beginning and, and, um, and you don't always get that. And it's like, even if you get a bad review or something, you know, people get scared. Netflix is like, they, they really liked this movie and believe in it. And it's been the same experience from like months and months ago to now, like they, they want to promote it. They want to get eyeballs on it. And I really appreciate that, you know, because ultimately when I take a step back, really the only thing I care about

is that people see this film. And a lot of people are going to see this film just based on the fact of where it's available. And then also the other reason I'm really kind of happy about this partnership is it is a film in my mind that hopefully people watch a second time. And if they do, it's a very different experience. My favorite film of last year was Arrival.

And that was a film where I saw it the first time and I thought it was amazing. And then I saw it the second time and then I thought it was genius because it's a completely different experience. And you realize, I mean, I won't spoil that film, but you realize what the actors are doing is you think it's one thing the first time you see it. And then the second time you see it, it's something completely different. That's interesting. So we had Jordan Peele on the show a couple of weeks ago and I asked him a similar question about the Easter egg second viewing quality of Get Out. Is that something that you are consciously doing when you guys are writing? Are you saying, I want to put these flashes in that I know?

Or does it happen on the 20th draft? It's not a conscious thing in terms of like, what will the experience be the second time? But it's definitely, you know, while directing the scenes scenes there are subtle moments that we that i discuss with the actors of okay this means something more than what we think it does so it's definitely ingrained in uh the performance and me directing these actors in terms of what all of this means but it's not like there's no expectation that someone's going to watch this movie twice. But I think the people that do, then you get something more from it. It's ultimately what I want. You know, I want people to have discussions about what this means. I want people

to say, okay, well, this is what my belief is. This is, you know, what my afterlife is, you know, like that, that's the discussion that I want people to have. And so I definitely made a film in my mind that, that gets people to do that, which is nice. Two parts about the putting the movie out on Netflix. On the one hand, I'm curious about whether this changes the way that you will make movies in the future, because I first saw the one I love on Netflix right obviously I experienced this movie on Netflix if you know that your movie is going to be seen by most people in that environment do you write differently do you think about how a movie looks differently no I don't like I said like the discovery uh Sterla who shot the film it was his first american film um i really wanted a european dp um he's a master at visuals and has such an interesting beautiful style um and if you

see this movie on a big screen it looks beautiful you know most people won't although we are we are opening in ipic theaters in la new York, so people can seek it out in those cities. But I still want it, depending on what the story is, I want it to look beautiful. So this film had a lot of very cool sort of dark tones to it. And it's sort of hauntingly beautiful, I would say. And so in my mind, it was going to be on a big screen. And now it's not. But I wouldn't have changed the visual style of it just because it's on a smaller screen. Yeah, it's it's interesting.

I'm not saying I'm only going to make movies that people see in their home, even though I really have loved my experience with Netflix. But I think there are certain films that are really good for you to experience at home and just for the amount of people that will see it. We still use box office as a way to measure success. So this is a completely different thing. And you talked about Netflix plunging forward by doing a lot of original films like this. How do you personally measure the success beyond just knowing whether people are conversing about the movie? I have no idea.

We'll see. I mean, I think it I think from what I've I've sort of witnessed and mostly in their original TV stuff is is just to a coffee shop and people are talking about it. And so like, you know that it hit and, you know, or you ask your friends like, oh, what TV shows have you watched recently? And they say the OA, Stranger Things, obviously, like these shows, you know, people watched. I have no idea how many, but they became cultural hits. So I think the next thing is, can that translate to original films, which I think for Netflix, like that's the new, the next territory.

And they have an amazing slate coming up this year. So I don't know. Obviously, I'm not going to know the numbers of how many people have seen it, but I feel like it'll just be our people talking about it on social media our people you know are people coming up to me saying i saw your film and discovered it on netflix and that's sort of how i'll measure it i guess are you checking your mentions looking to see who's i i check i check that stuff i like it i mean i i check the the message board on youtube

on the the trailer and know, because people are trying to figure out what it means already. And they're all debating each other. And like, I love that. It's a really good trailer. Yeah, it's a cool. And again, like we did a similar thing with the one I love where it's like it's hinting at what all of this means, but it's not spoon feeding it to you.

So a lot of people have this idea of what the movie already means. And I can say that they, they've all been wrong, um, which is great because they haven't guessed it. But, uh, but yeah, it's, I like looking at that stuff. Even, even if there's negative stuff, like I'm, I'm actually okay reading it just because I like that people have strong opinions like that. That's kind of a great thing. You've tackled fidelity and commitment as themes. You've tackled the afterlife, spirituality, romance. Is there, what's the next, um, the next two big concepts to try to get after? Well, we have a couple original ideas, um uh that we haven't started writing but we started to kind of

develop and figure out and they're they're actually going away from the sort of the sci-fi genre but staying in the the sort of thriller crime genre that has a sort of heightened element so i i think you know yeah it's more about what we're trying to say there. And then we start to sort of figure out, okay, well, what genre piece does this sort of fit in? But we're also, Justin and I are developing this mini series that Noah Hawley is producing and Scott Rudin as well.

And they brought us this book called Zero K that's written by Don DeLillo. So we're developing that into a limited series for FX and it's this kind of big, very esoteric sci-fi much bigger than anything we've, we've written or thought about. Um, so it's a lot of digesting and figuring out what the story is, but that's sort of our, that's our next project that we're working on. Adapting Don DeLillo. Is that intimidating? Yes. Very.

How's it going? Very. I think we feel really thankful and lucky that Noah Hawley and Scott Rudin are sort of voices behind it because we just have so much respect for them. So we can constantly sort of bounce these ideas off of them and figure out ultimately what we're trying to say. But he's such an incredible writer and has such a specific voice and tone. So it's more just about digesting what he's saying and then and then trying to do our own version of it, but keeping ultimately the essence of him that that's so strong to begin with. We're really excited about it. It's just a lot of sorting through and figuring out, okay, again, how do we put these puzzle pieces together? Well, you sorted it very effectively in the discovery.

People should check it out on Netflix. Charlie, thank you for coming today. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Hey, thanks again to Fusion TV's The AV.V. Club for sponsoring the episode today. Pop culture is everywhere. According to non-existent studies, it's 83% of the things you consume, even more than oxygen. At the acclaimed pop culture website, The A.V. Club, it's all they ever want to talk about. And now they're coming to TV.

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